WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-01 at 21:52:17

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Hey, Joe. Hi.

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So this is a bit exciting because I actually discovered watching

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this last night that this episode of Deep Space Nine, which is

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series 6, episode two, Rocks and Shoals, is probably a top 10

5
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episode.

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It's really, really extraordinarily good.

7
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And I think it's probably better than 2 that we've already done in

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the Pale Moonlight and Sige of AR 558.

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I think it's really, really good.

10
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I think I'm going to agree with you.

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I do think rocks and shoals is spoken about in the same breath as

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those 2 episodes.

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So it's not like a shocking statement to put them on par with it

14
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or even higher.

15
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Yeah.

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I wrote a message to you saying, I think this is so good.

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It's top 10 90s trek.

18
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Yeah.

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Well, maybe Trek.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Like, it really blim it.

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It's really properly good, I think.

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It has the limitations that 90s track has, but it's just well

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written and well acted and thoughtful and interesting.

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I just think it's clever. and it has a magnificent guest star or

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maybe even 2 magnificent guest stars, but like Phil Morris as the

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head Jem Hadar is amazing and turns out to have like an incredible

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Star Trek pedigree.

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Yeah.

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He's a tiny child in an army helmet in mirri.

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He's a hot young cadet in Star Trek.

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He is hot Klingon bodyguard guy from looking for Palmark in all

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the wrong places.

34
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We'll just point out because I do bring my mother into this every

35
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now and again, she was hypnotised by his arse in that episode.

36
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Yeah, no, so we'll keep an eye out for that this time.

37
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And he's the, um, the astronaut in one small step in Voyager.

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So he's been in a lot of Star Trek and he's so good in this.

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Like, he really properly sells it.

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And then you've got Christopher Shea's Kievan, the Vorta, who is

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also magnificent.

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Slimy bugger.

43
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Yeah, I want to talk about him quite a lot.

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And as you said to me, in the thread.

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Thank goodness he gets his very ignoble ending in the magnificent

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Ferengi.

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That's right.

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He gets... brilliant rifter.

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But like, I just think on every level you could kind of critique

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this.

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I think for 90s trek, this is visually very interesting. they go

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outside and more on that later because they go outside somewhere

53
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and then they add special effects to make it look even more

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ambitious than it is because that ocean isn't there.

55
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That's all that's all digitally added.

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I think it uses all the regulars really well.

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We've talked about 90s banter before and I think they get that

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bang on here.

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The humour is just right.

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The lines are great.

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Ron Moore.

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And he can turn a phrase, you know?

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He's probably the one writer in 90s trek that can.

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So thank God.

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He's writing as much DS9 as he is.

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I think the dilemma that they put Cisco in. is really interesting

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and has quite a shocking conclusion.

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The Kira plot, which appears very quiet, has the most shocking

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moment of the entire episode for me when I 1st watched it, my

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stomach turned.

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I mean, it's just, it's, it's really good drama.

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We laugh and say, well, Star Trek isn't great drama.

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I think this might be one of those times when it is a genuinely

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good bit of drama.

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Yeah, I mean, I have one or 2 reservations and I think there's one

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scene that I don't like very much, but I think it's incredibly

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good.

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And, like, it's clever in a way that 90s Shrek often isn't.

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I was really, really impressed.

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And the other thing too, right, is that it manages to be an

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individual episode with 2 plots that are both about something that

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both have a beginning, a middle, and an end, even though it's part

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of this kind of 6 episode arc, which in itself is a great idea as

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well.

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If we lose the station at the end of series 5, retaking it at the

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end of episode 2 of series 6 is super boring.

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And so making them earn it, giving them sort of 6 episodes in

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which they are yet to retake the station and there's a new status

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quo is really interesting.

90
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Would it surprise you to learn that the studio did want them to

91
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retake the station at Ira Bank?

92
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Oh, I'm not.

93
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Duck his heels in and went, no, that's too easy.

94
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We don't want this to be easy.

95
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It's like you said, uh, with basics, um, part one, is it's that

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cliffhanger where the premise of the show is threatened.

97
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And that's exactly what happens with a call to ask.

98
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But with Voyager, of course, in basics part two, we do get shit

99
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back and we're back on our way to a TOS, you know, flashback

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episode in next week.

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Whereas, can I say about these 6 episodes, for me, I love the last

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10 episodes of DS9, I do think they are great, but they are a

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little bit flabby in places and the melodrama is on another

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level.

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I know we love it.

106
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But it is crazy over the top at times.

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And I can see why some people win.

108
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What the hell is this?

109
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Kiss me, Julian, you know.

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These 6 episodes.

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I think, and there's quite a bold statement to make.

112
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I think this is my favourite section of Star Trek, from a time to

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stand, to Sacrifice of Angels, I think they do really interesting

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stuff.

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They take the characters to some very dark places.

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They throw in some amazing set.

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They've learned.

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They've had 5 years of storytelling.

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They've made a ton of mistakes.

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They've learnt what works on this show, and they've decided to

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take it up to the next level.

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They do that in Way of the Warrior, and then they do it again at

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the end of series 5.

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And with these 6 episodes, all the potential that was there locked

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away in emissary is bearing fruit and it's terrific television.

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I remember when it went out, people were responding to it

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amazingly.

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I think Paramount were thinking about closing down the show at the

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end of 6 and there was no guarantee of 7.

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And I think this went out and it can't have hurt their decision

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too, because there was such a positive reaction to all of this

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especially like when it came to sacrifice of angels when people

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were going, oh, it's just all going to be very disappointing.

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And then we were getting space battles on a level that we had

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never seen before.

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I just think this is incredible stuff and it's the best part of my

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favourite Star Trek show.

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So I cannot wait to start talking about it.

139
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Oh, brilliant.

140
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All right, well, what do you think?

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Should we start?

142
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You have some things.

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Oh, I do.

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Yes, I do.

145
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Well, it's just about one of the regular complaints that you have

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about 90s Strek is the...

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Yeah, you have a fucking go outside. artificial exteriors as

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exemplified by the churchyard in subrosa.

149
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Can you think of any others?

150
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Yeah, just all of those terrible, terrible planet sets in like

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next time.

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Yes, he always wanted to masterpiece society.

153
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What is it?

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I say, how could we lose all of this?

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Yep, stock colony set one, like all of that.

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So here they decide to go outside and do some shooting.

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And I don't think they could have done this episode without it.

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I don't know how they would have done.

159
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Well, actually, no, seizure Bay off 55A's all inside, isn't it?

160
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Yeah, yeah.

161
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Yeah.

162
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I think it suffers from it a bit.

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Although it does mean that we can have night shoots, which we

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could never have afforded if we'd actually been outside.

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Things can happen at night.

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By all accounts, it was torturous to film.

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These episodes.

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But apparently they kept that they were going out on the shortest

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days of the year as well, sunlight wise.

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So they have to keep wrapping up about a 3rd 3rd of the way

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through the day because they just didn't have any light to shoot

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in.

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Um, Oh my god, it was so hot, says Aaron Eisenberg.

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I understand it was 108 degrees.

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Oh, Gary Hussle. 120 degrees at the bottom of the pit conveys

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Laura Richards.

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My whole crew was fainting, Jonathan West reports.

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It was just blistering, baking hot, and the makeup was melting on

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camera.

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Ron Moore groans.

181
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In other words, it was a typical Deep Space 9 location shoot.

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Who is it?

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It's Phil Morris and the people who are dressed as Jem Hadar

184
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although presumably.

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Yeah, his eye is blood red in one of these things. his lip is

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coming off as well.

187
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And obviously Nog.

188
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In fact, I was super surprised to see Nog swimming to shore in

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that fucking latex bed, you know, doing quite a good job.

190
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Well, weighing them down.

191
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Get our Aaron out of the water.

192
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So I love the physicality of that because you don't normally see

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that sort of thing in 90s.

194
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Just someone coming out of really water, you know?

195
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Yep, absolutely.

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I don't know, that's a crazy thing to say about television when we

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see that sort of thing all the time, but no, I don't think it, you

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know, like because a lot of these things are shot in the studio

199
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and because shooting in the studio is cheaper. putting someone in

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a situation where they're going up or down, like verticality where

201
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they get wet, where there's wind, like all of those sorts of

202
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things just create a level of realism that you don't normally get

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easily in the studio.

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It's almost just the vistas here.

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Yeah, the space.

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It's almost like a glimpse of another type of Star Trek they could

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have made in the 90s if they did have a bigger budget and they

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were going on location every week.

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It couldn't be as good as this every week.

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Yeah.

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I do have one other quote, and it is from our fabulous water

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character, Kivan, Christopher Sheer, who says, I read the script

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and I just loved it.

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It was a dynamite role and so well written.

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It reminded me of Shakespeare in many ways.

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A lot of actors on the show are classically trained and the

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writers give you so much to work with.

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You can tell he's responding to the script.

219
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Yeah, he probably didn't say that about the magnificent Ferengi.

220
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No.

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I love the beerware.

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They're all clouded about the place and he just goes, I hate

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Ferengi.

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He's so wonderfully camp, isn't he?

225
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He's terrific.

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He goes, well, what's it wrong?

227
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Because what's going to happen?

228
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And he goes, well, the Jemhadar probably got to storm the station

229
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and you're all going to be dead.

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It's such a great episode.

231
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But, I mean, it's 2 very different tones.

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The bit in this where he says to them, either way, they're

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coming.

234
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Oh, that's such a great moment.

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So good.

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We'll talk about that as it comes because I think he's incredible

237
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and just the relationship that is created between the Vorta and

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the Jem'Hadar is so interesting and sort of, yeah, just

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interesting.

240
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They find things to do with it that are really great.

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Well, I think we should...

242
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I mean, for me, this is the apotheosis, so let's go.

243
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Yeah, yeah.

244
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I agree.

245
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All right.

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Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

247
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And we start in a moment of immediate jeopardy.

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We're on the Jemhadar ship from a time to stand, which has been

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damaged.

250
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I don't know if you remember the cliffhanger, but it's Bashir with

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his new genetically enhanced mind, telling them precisely how long

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it's going to take to limp home.

253
00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:18.600
It's about 16 years.

254
00:12:18.779 --> 00:12:23.399
I do remember that because Voyager was out and about at this point

255
00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:23.940
wasn't it?

256
00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:25.080
Yeah.

257
00:12:25.139 --> 00:12:27.419
So it's a 5th of the time.

258
00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:31.259
So this is one of the things where I think this banter kind of

259
00:12:31.259 --> 00:12:33.600
works, but would have been much better if you were allowed to say

260
00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:37.440
fuck on network television in the United States, in the 1990s

261
00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:40.980
because it would have been much funnier to have, you know, rough

262
00:12:40.980 --> 00:12:45.299
working class Irishmen, um, actually saying, you know, these

263
00:12:45.299 --> 00:12:49.559
fucking thrusters and these fucking things. reroute the damn jar

264
00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:49.919
amazing.

265
00:12:49.980 --> 00:12:51.419
Shut your fucking maradine.

266
00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:52.679
That's right.

267
00:12:52.740 --> 00:12:54.059
Like that would have been great.

268
00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:57.600
And then and then Nog tries to say fucking and get shut down.

269
00:12:57.659 --> 00:12:58.980
That would have been much funny.

270
00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:04.440
Just a quick moment for the viewscreen through the eye implants.

271
00:13:04.500 --> 00:13:08.279
That's a really interesting visual that they don't normally do.

272
00:13:08.340 --> 00:13:10.500
So they don't have screens on board.

273
00:13:10.500 --> 00:13:11.700
The gem had our ship.

274
00:13:11.700 --> 00:13:15.480
And I think the people, like humans can't wear them for long, which

275
00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:16.980
is why Garak's along. that right?

276
00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:18.299
Yeah, that's right.

277
00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:19.919
He gets less headaches than this.

278
00:13:19.980 --> 00:13:20.879
You know what, right?

279
00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:21.720
Oh, rocks.

280
00:13:21.779 --> 00:13:23.340
Rocks, there we go.

281
00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:24.600
Rock's coming out of a thing.

282
00:13:24.659 --> 00:13:27.720
Excellent, Gemadar. that makes that work is that the, basically

283
00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:30.840
the entire ceiling just fell on top of her, which is in slow

284
00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:31.200
motion.

285
00:13:31.259 --> 00:13:36.720
So part of the problem here too is that now we used to action

286
00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:39.360
sequences where the cameras are participant.

287
00:13:39.419 --> 00:13:43.019
And so here, it's a little bit handheld, but not very much.

288
00:13:43.019 --> 00:13:45.659
And so all of this seems a bit static.

289
00:13:45.659 --> 00:13:49.980
And it seems a bit cruel to have the most exciting scene go even

290
00:13:49.980 --> 00:13:53.580
slower because it's a special effect shot.

291
00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:55.320
Oh there you go.

292
00:13:55.379 --> 00:13:56.100
The camera shook there.

293
00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:59.220
I love the drama of a slow motion.

294
00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:01.379
Gerda falling on somebody.

295
00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:05.639
But I'm kind of post Battlestar Galactica, you know, expecting the

296
00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:07.679
camera to whip around, trying to find people and stuff.

297
00:14:07.740 --> 00:14:09.480
Safe on 90s trek.

298
00:14:09.539 --> 00:14:11.220
This is quite a dynamic opening.

299
00:14:11.340 --> 00:14:14.700
And the fact that we are just coming straight in after the last

300
00:14:14.700 --> 00:14:15.120
episode.

301
00:14:15.179 --> 00:14:18.960
And that shot is so magnificent, isn't it?

302
00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:19.259
Great.

303
00:14:19.379 --> 00:14:22.200
Well, no, it's Garrett going, hold on.

304
00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:27.179
He's the only one that can see they're about to impact a planet.

305
00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:29.940
It looks really good though, doesn't it?

306
00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:33.899
The planet surface and the ship just sort of spiralling down.

307
00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:35.159
It's really well done.

308
00:14:35.220 --> 00:14:38.340
What impresses me there is there's energy in the writing as well.

309
00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:40.919
We're going back and forth to all the characters.

310
00:14:40.980 --> 00:14:43.860
They're all moving about the set, you know, and then there's the

311
00:14:43.860 --> 00:14:46.139
explosions and then the ship's going to crash.

312
00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:47.279
There's a lot happening.

313
00:14:47.340 --> 00:14:48.779
Yeah, yeah.

314
00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:50.399
And that stuff is funny.

315
00:14:50.460 --> 00:14:56.759
Like the, you know, grumpy miles and sort of, um, and...

316
00:14:56.820 --> 00:14:59.580
I fucking love knocking this episode.

317
00:14:59.700 --> 00:15:01.620
Yeah, yeah, I do too.

318
00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:02.279
He's really good.

319
00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:06.419
So, Nathan, you can either stand beside me or in front of me, but

320
00:15:06.419 --> 00:15:07.679
I won't turn your mind back on you again.

321
00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:09.179
That's so good.

322
00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:11.759
Having him and Gary together. for you yet.

323
00:15:12.059 --> 00:15:15.840
And I like how Deep Space 9 does that.

324
00:15:15.899 --> 00:15:17.820
I didn't have to mention that.

325
00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:22.019
So I don't know what episode we're referring to. towards the end

326
00:15:22.019 --> 00:15:25.200
of series 5, where Garrett turns into a psychopath and tries to

327
00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:25.559
give him.

328
00:15:25.620 --> 00:15:26.399
Yeah.

329
00:15:26.460 --> 00:15:28.320
Yeah, and so we need to address it.

330
00:15:28.379 --> 00:15:31.379
Like they say that we need to address it, but they address it in a

331
00:15:31.379 --> 00:15:35.639
scene that's funny and that doesn't spend a lot of time giving us

332
00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:38.340
details. know, I think it's pretty well done.

333
00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:40.860
Well, so we've read their scenes.

334
00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:43.740
Nog is like technically the superior office size.

335
00:15:43.980 --> 00:15:48.240
But in no way, the bit where Nog tries to give his serial number

336
00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:50.100
and Garrett just goes, shut up, shut up.

337
00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:51.480
So good.

338
00:15:51.539 --> 00:15:52.559
So good.

339
00:15:52.620 --> 00:15:56.220
There is one Garak line, which is coming up and you'll know what

340
00:15:56.220 --> 00:16:00.120
it is because it's literally the only thing he could possibly have

341
00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:00.419
said.

342
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:04.019
And as I was watching it, even though I haven't seen this episode

343
00:16:04.019 --> 00:16:04.799
in 10 years.

344
00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:08.340
He delivered the line at the same time as I delivered it.

345
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:12.059
I thought it was so funny, I will tell you, but it's the absolute

346
00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:16.259
perfect Garak line and it's just beautifully, beautifully

347
00:16:16.259 --> 00:16:18.059
performed by Andrew Robinson.

348
00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:19.500
Look at this shot.

349
00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:20.519
That's not real.

350
00:16:20.580 --> 00:16:21.779
Is that that's manadin?

351
00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:22.379
not there.

352
00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:24.120
And you cannot...

353
00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:25.679
No, you can now that you've told me.

354
00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:28.019
I don't think that's bad at all.

355
00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:34.620
No, no, no, but, but, um, subordinate JemHadar has his face kind

356
00:16:34.620 --> 00:16:38.460
of like ride up against the bit where they've done the cutout.

357
00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:42.360
So here is poor Phil Morris's mask falling apart.

358
00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:44.580
Look at this top lip. falling off.

359
00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:45.600
Oh, yeah.

360
00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:51.240
The fact that he managed to deliver this nuanced performance

361
00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:59.220
through this melting latex. is extraordinary, you know. when this

362
00:16:59.220 --> 00:17:01.019
opened and they were in the sunshine.

363
00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:03.480
I was like, oh, Nathan's going to have such a hard on watching

364
00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:03.899
this.

365
00:17:06.059 --> 00:17:08.759
Do you know, I love the chess bits.

366
00:17:08.819 --> 00:17:10.319
They didn't have to do that.

367
00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:12.359
The costume could just be cut off at the neck.

368
00:17:12.420 --> 00:17:15.839
Well, in fact, Phil Morris's costume's cut off of the neck, but

369
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:21.480
the other one, the exposition Jem'Hadar is has got, you know, like

370
00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:22.559
a plunging neckline.

371
00:17:22.619 --> 00:17:26.220
I, again, I like how the exposition is done here and how we

372
00:17:26.220 --> 00:17:31.019
introduce the idea that the vorta doesn't give a shit about them

373
00:17:31.019 --> 00:17:34.079
and is actually bad at making decisions and has got them stuck

374
00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:34.440
here.

375
00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:40.559
Yeah, this poor old Aaron doing dog paddle in this fucking latex.

376
00:17:40.619 --> 00:17:43.319
And then you get a shot in his back with the whole thing not

377
00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:44.039
falling over.

378
00:17:44.099 --> 00:17:48.000
Like, look at that shot of Garak with the sun behind him as well.

379
00:17:48.059 --> 00:17:51.660
We're just getting all all sorts of stuff we don't normally see in

380
00:17:51.660 --> 00:17:52.200
Star Trek.

381
00:17:52.259 --> 00:17:52.980
Yeah, that's exciting.

382
00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:57.480
It feels like they're in real jeopardy. the shit has hit the fan.

383
00:17:57.539 --> 00:18:02.700
I love this where the camera goes over the ridge for them pulling

384
00:18:02.700 --> 00:18:03.599
the things out of the water.

385
00:18:03.660 --> 00:18:05.640
Yeah, they've got a lot of shit with them.

386
00:18:05.700 --> 00:18:07.980
I did think, why are we packing all this crap?

387
00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:10.799
Like, what is it?

388
00:18:10.859 --> 00:18:12.480
It's all O'Brien's spare pants.

389
00:18:12.539 --> 00:18:13.079
That's why.

390
00:18:13.140 --> 00:18:18.299
No, I reckon it's like O'Brien's stereo or is whiskey or

391
00:18:18.299 --> 00:18:18.599
something.

392
00:18:18.660 --> 00:18:23.700
And then, so this is Jadzir on location for the only time.

393
00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:24.720
Is that right?

394
00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:25.740
So...

395
00:18:25.740 --> 00:18:27.059
That's not Terry Farrell.

396
00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:30.000
Okay, Terry Farrell has a condition.

397
00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:31.019
Look the shot?

398
00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:31.619
The shot?

399
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:34.799
The one where the ship actually sinks into the sea.

400
00:18:34.859 --> 00:18:37.559
Oh, that's great, isn't it?

401
00:18:37.619 --> 00:18:39.720
Well, the sea's not there and the ship's not there.

402
00:18:39.779 --> 00:18:41.519
And they've just added to that location.

403
00:18:41.579 --> 00:18:42.240
Brilliant.

404
00:18:42.299 --> 00:18:45.660
I remember it really vividly from all this time ago.

405
00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:46.740
This is brilliant too.

406
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:51.599
You know how I said in AR558, part of the fun, part of the problem

407
00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:53.819
with it was there was no gallows humour.

408
00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:58.680
There was no kind of, there was no, nothing that had developed as

409
00:18:58.680 --> 00:18:59.279
a joke.

410
00:18:59.339 --> 00:19:03.420
And this thing here, the Tomay pants line isn't the thing that I

411
00:19:03.420 --> 00:19:05.279
like the most. reaction.

412
00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:06.779
I'm in real...

413
00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:08.940
I guess I'm really in trouble now, eh?

414
00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:13.019
I just love seeing Avery Brooks laughing his head off.

415
00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:14.579
His laugh is infectious.

416
00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:18.720
And then we cut back to the just the very last moment of the ship

417
00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:19.740
going under the water.

418
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:20.220
Okay.

419
00:19:20.279 --> 00:19:23.880
So this story plays out in 6 scenes, I think.

420
00:19:23.940 --> 00:19:30.059
So this is scene one and scene 5 parallels it completely.

421
00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:32.759
So she gets the same shot, isn't it?

422
00:19:32.819 --> 00:19:34.200
Her looking in the mirror, her going to her.

423
00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:36.119
So looking in the mirror, she's smiling.

424
00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:37.920
Look at she's smiling.

425
00:19:37.980 --> 00:19:39.660
She's getting into work.

426
00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:41.759
She says, hey, Clem to that guy.

427
00:19:41.819 --> 00:19:42.779
Do you know what I mean?

428
00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:44.279
Like I climb or whatever.

429
00:19:44.339 --> 00:19:44.940
I don't know.

430
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.160
Clem the Gemitar.

431
00:19:47.220 --> 00:19:49.440
Yeah. whatever, you know, like...

432
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:51.420
Oh, no, it's it's it's Mavic.

433
00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:52.259
It's a space name.

434
00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:53.339
Yeah, yeah.

435
00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:57.240
Mavic space name who gives her the coffee at, um, you know, an

436
00:19:57.240 --> 00:19:57.720
ops.

437
00:19:57.779 --> 00:20:02.160
And so she's completely gone native.

438
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:04.500
And this is Deep Space 9, right?

439
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:06.420
So this is the show now.

440
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:10.380
You know, all of our guys have been thrown off Deep Space 9 and

441
00:20:10.380 --> 00:20:11.880
they're off doing an adventure somewhere else.

442
00:20:11.940 --> 00:20:12.779
She's the only one left.

443
00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:15.720
Her and Odo doing deep space name, there's Mayveck.

444
00:20:15.779 --> 00:20:20.339
And, like, she, she, she does, like, she raises her eyebrows when

445
00:20:20.339 --> 00:20:23.640
she gets in the lift and greets them as if they're just her work

446
00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:25.019
colleagues.

447
00:20:25.019 --> 00:20:29.160
And, you know, this has just become her day-to-day now. working

448
00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:31.019
with the Kardashians and the Jemadar.

449
00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:35.880
And that's what's so skilful about this is hearing her wake up to

450
00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:39.420
an alarm, seeing her get ready, seeing her go go to ops.

451
00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:41.940
Like that means that that's what she's doing every day.

452
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.559
And I think that's well done.

453
00:20:43.619 --> 00:20:45.779
And it doesn't need any dialogue about that.

454
00:20:46.259 --> 00:20:51.359
No, and in fact, it doesn't feel the need to explain to us, does

455
00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:51.660
it?

456
00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:55.440
We just get the 2 mirrored scenes and we're left to figure it out

457
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:55.980
for ourselves.

458
00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:57.359
I feel like Rick Bermer's left the bit.

459
00:20:57.420 --> 00:20:58.319
Remember we watched Remember Me?

460
00:20:58.740 --> 00:21:03.480
Because scene 6 is us explaining the whole thing, which is the

461
00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:06.900
scene that I don't like very much because I was feeling a bit good

462
00:21:06.900 --> 00:21:10.140
about them crediting me with some intelligence.

463
00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:13.380
I think I think what we needed was for her to say, I'm going to

464
00:21:13.380 --> 00:21:17.160
start the resistance against that to kick into the next episode.

465
00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:22.799
Star Trek scene where she says, I'm going to start the

466
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:23.400
resistance.

467
00:21:23.460 --> 00:21:24.539
Do you know what I mean?

468
00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:28.380
There's no subtext, there's no kind of room for interpretation.

469
00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:31.680
Just to very quickly go back to Terry Farrell.

470
00:21:31.740 --> 00:21:34.500
She's got a condition where she can't be out in sunlight too

471
00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:34.740
long.

472
00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:36.839
It really affects her skin.

473
00:21:36.900 --> 00:21:40.799
So she had to be written out of this episode and put into the cave

474
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:41.400
scenes.

475
00:21:41.460 --> 00:21:46.200
So Neely, who's the female who gets all the dialogue on location, I

476
00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:48.240
think that was supposed to be that.

477
00:21:48.299 --> 00:21:49.019
Yeah.

478
00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:51.900
So we have 2 red shirts here, don't we?

479
00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:56.160
We've got Neely and Gordon and...

480
00:21:56.220 --> 00:21:57.720
Gordon is cute.

481
00:21:57.779 --> 00:22:01.380
And we're gonna, we're gonna cut back.

482
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:06.180
So we're in cave set one here and elsewhere.

483
00:22:06.180 --> 00:22:10.259
No, elsewhere in cave set one or like when they move these guys

484
00:22:10.259 --> 00:22:14.579
out. where all our federation guys are.

485
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:16.980
So we're all in caves, which is all a little bit teedy.

486
00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:20.759
Kivan is lying on the same rock as Jazia Daxley.

487
00:22:20.819 --> 00:22:22.079
Yeah, that's true.

488
00:22:22.140 --> 00:22:24.420
I do love this sort of physical...

489
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:25.319
Who's got his shirt off?

490
00:22:25.380 --> 00:22:26.400
Who's got his shirt off there?

491
00:22:26.460 --> 00:22:27.240
Is that Julian?

492
00:22:27.299 --> 00:22:28.680
Look at that.

493
00:22:28.740 --> 00:22:29.640
Oh, yeah.

494
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:30.599
Yeah, I think it's Julian.

495
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:33.000
He got his shirt off and has his...

496
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:34.319
Step into the light, Julian.

497
00:22:34.380 --> 00:22:35.940
Yeah, woo hoo.

498
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:36.960
I can barely see you.

499
00:22:37.019 --> 00:22:37.740
Look at him.

500
00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:40.980
Again, though, I do like, do you like, I like the smoking clothes

501
00:22:40.980 --> 00:22:43.140
on the rock that's been phased.

502
00:22:43.259 --> 00:22:45.240
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

503
00:22:45.299 --> 00:22:46.920
It's detail, you know?

504
00:22:46.980 --> 00:22:47.339
Yeah.

505
00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:52.500
I really like these new outfits as well because they have lots of

506
00:22:52.500 --> 00:22:55.559
layers and stuff and because they can be worn in sort of various

507
00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:56.579
dishevelled ways.

508
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:01.019
And so, you know, when they're out in the dirt and they've been in

509
00:23:01.019 --> 00:23:04.319
these, you know, outfits for a while, they look a bit the worse

510
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:04.920
for wear.

511
00:23:04.980 --> 00:23:07.740
They're not like the Voyager ones, which are just pure black and

512
00:23:07.740 --> 00:23:09.599
then, you know, yeah, here we go.

513
00:23:09.660 --> 00:23:10.440
It's so weird.

514
00:23:10.500 --> 00:23:13.019
It looks like Julia's just wearing an everyday t-shirt there

515
00:23:13.019 --> 00:23:13.500
doesn't it?

516
00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:15.059
Yeah, it's scrubs, isn't it?

517
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:17.640
He's like wearing his medical scrubs or something.

518
00:23:17.700 --> 00:23:20.279
Nathan, I loved all this about the hotel gift shop.

519
00:23:20.700 --> 00:23:22.799
I want to make a complaint.

520
00:23:22.859 --> 00:23:24.839
This bed's as hard as a rock.

521
00:23:24.900 --> 00:23:26.039
You know?

522
00:23:27.180 --> 00:23:31.380
No, I just want you to imagine this as written by the Voyager

523
00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:32.220
writers, now, okay?

524
00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:33.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

525
00:23:33.539 --> 00:23:36.779
Yeah, like it's not hugely hilarious, but it's sort of sweet and

526
00:23:36.779 --> 00:23:38.880
it's them keeping their spirits up.

527
00:23:38.940 --> 00:23:39.720
Yeah, exactly.

528
00:23:39.779 --> 00:23:41.460
Oh, here we go.

529
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:42.480
Nor can Garak.

530
00:23:42.539 --> 00:23:43.859
Yeah.

531
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:48.599
The 2 most latex people in the cast, having to spend all of this

532
00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:49.200
time outside.

533
00:23:49.259 --> 00:23:52.619
That's okay, man, you know, I'll have experience this myself.

534
00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:56.160
He goes, you're deliberately standing in behind me and I want to

535
00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:56.519
know why.

536
00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:03.359
Oh, do you know, Aaron Eisenberg.

537
00:24:03.420 --> 00:24:04.619
What a loss, man.

538
00:24:04.740 --> 00:24:06.119
He's such a charming actor.

539
00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:07.619
Yeah.

540
00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:13.799
And who would have ever suspected when Nog raided that place on

541
00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:17.640
the promenade in episode one that we'd ever... no lines in episode

542
00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:18.420
one, does he?

543
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:21.960
I think it just goes, hurry up, come on, or something like that.

544
00:24:22.140 --> 00:24:23.039
Yeah, yeah, possibly.

545
00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:23.400
Yeah.

546
00:24:23.460 --> 00:24:26.759
But he's just a fully fledged character now, and we've gone on

547
00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:28.140
that whole journey with him.

548
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:33.000
Plus had all those brilliant comedy subplots along the way.

549
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:34.799
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

550
00:24:34.859 --> 00:24:35.880
All the stuff with Jay.

551
00:24:35.940 --> 00:24:38.940
You cannot ask that woman to chew up and spit out your food so you

552
00:24:38.940 --> 00:24:39.900
can eat it, you know?

553
00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:41.579
So it's this, what is it?

554
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:42.660
I'm not sure, but.

555
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:45.299
And then he looks around and says, now I'm sure.

556
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:49.980
And it was just absolutely the line that I knew that he would say

557
00:24:49.980 --> 00:24:51.359
and that we would go out.

558
00:24:51.420 --> 00:24:52.859
I just think it's so funny.

559
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:57.539
No, for that 1st class, 0 number C, X, 9, 3, 7.

560
00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:00.720
It's so good.

561
00:25:00.779 --> 00:25:05.339
And then, of course, Garak tries to do his spiel about some

562
00:25:05.339 --> 00:25:07.140
dreadful lie as stone they are.

563
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:07.740
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

564
00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:10.019
And then keeping us right through it with the badge.

565
00:25:10.140 --> 00:25:13.259
But and then he says, I just sort of hoped you weren't going to

566
00:25:13.259 --> 00:25:15.960
mention that because I'm not even going to attempt to make up a

567
00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:17.160
story to justify that.

568
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:21.000
And Keeva's always thinking, isn't he?

569
00:25:21.059 --> 00:25:23.160
How am I going to get out of this?

570
00:25:23.220 --> 00:25:25.920
He's so great, isn't he?

571
00:25:25.980 --> 00:25:27.480
Because he's physically weak.

572
00:25:27.539 --> 00:25:30.299
He's pathetic, you know, because he's been injured.

573
00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:36.480
He's just lying there. and he's pale and cowardly and you know, all

574
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:41.099
of that stuff and he's surrounded by these man, you know, whom

575
00:25:41.099 --> 00:25:44.940
he's in charge of, but he's absolutely not fit physically to be in

576
00:25:44.940 --> 00:25:45.660
charge of them.

577
00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:48.119
I think it's a good choice. you know.

578
00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:53.700
Don't be too hard on it, young man.

579
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:55.559
It's just saved your life.

580
00:25:55.619 --> 00:26:01.019
Like, is there a doctor in your unit and you see Garak trying to

581
00:26:01.019 --> 00:26:05.940
decide what to do, and then he says yes, almost without kind of

582
00:26:05.940 --> 00:26:09.480
moving his lips to form the word because he's so tentative about

583
00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:11.400
it, and it turns out it was the right call.

584
00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:12.539
It's really brilliant.

585
00:26:12.599 --> 00:26:15.299
Again, just a terrific performance.

586
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:18.779
I know the line, he gets later where he goes, I'm sure you've got

587
00:26:18.779 --> 00:26:21.240
one of your Starfleet engineers that can turn rocks into

588
00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:22.799
replicators.

589
00:26:25.859 --> 00:26:29.519
There's almost a little bit of lower decks taking a piss going on

590
00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:30.119
there, you know.

591
00:26:30.180 --> 00:26:30.720
Yeah.

592
00:26:30.779 --> 00:26:33.900
But look, look, there's some...

593
00:26:34.619 --> 00:26:34.980
Yeah.

594
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:39.359
So Phil Morris is now here interacting with the vorta, and

595
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:43.200
someone's fixed his makeup, so he's he's a little...

596
00:26:43.259 --> 00:26:46.440
Yeah, they were fans, you know, all over them.

597
00:26:46.500 --> 00:26:46.980
Yeah, exactly.

598
00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:50.700
I think it was a really savvy bit of design to sew the tube with

599
00:26:50.700 --> 00:26:52.680
the drug going into them all the time.

600
00:26:52.740 --> 00:26:54.359
You never forget it, yeah.

601
00:26:54.420 --> 00:26:55.740
Yeah, yeah.

602
00:26:55.799 --> 00:26:57.119
Oh, my words.

603
00:26:57.180 --> 00:26:58.319
What is this scene all about?

604
00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:02.099
Jake Cisco reporting from Starfleet news.

605
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:05.519
No, because it's the challenge.

606
00:27:05.579 --> 00:27:08.700
He's the one who challenges her.

607
00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:14.460
And so we see her pushing back against what are really reasonable

608
00:27:14.460 --> 00:27:15.059
questions.

609
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:18.720
And the great thing is at the end of it, Jake goes, wrong question

610
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:19.259
Jake.

611
00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:23.579
And you kind of go, no, no, no, those were all the right questions

612
00:27:23.579 --> 00:27:27.539
and her reaction to it tells you something about how she's, doesn't

613
00:27:27.539 --> 00:27:29.579
what I think about what she's doing.

614
00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:31.440
That's right, except it.

615
00:27:31.500 --> 00:27:33.299
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

616
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:43.740
So the things are 400 water are going to land on Bajor to help

617
00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:46.380
which is obviously, you know, just the start, a group of

618
00:27:46.380 --> 00:27:49.859
facilitators, which she seems to buy. facilitators, yeah.

619
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:54.660
Look how how Jake, how Syric has turned into a handsome young man

620
00:27:54.660 --> 00:27:58.440
over the last few years from being that tiny little boy.

621
00:27:59.460 --> 00:28:01.500
Oh, I always forget.

622
00:28:01.559 --> 00:28:02.579
Nana, Nana?

623
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:03.059
No, no.

624
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:05.339
No, no, let's say no, no.

625
00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:07.559
Just how she plays all of these scenes.

626
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:08.339
Yeah.

627
00:28:08.339 --> 00:28:11.099
Like she was out of the action a bit last year, pregnant.

628
00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:14.579
So now she's like, I'm back, baby, and I'm taking this show again

629
00:28:14.579 --> 00:28:14.880
you know?

630
00:28:14.940 --> 00:28:15.960
Yeah.

631
00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:21.960
Yeah, so and so we get this both from both of them, which is that

632
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:23.759
we can't do anything about this.

633
00:28:23.819 --> 00:28:27.420
The Dominion are too strong and we are not in any position to do

634
00:28:27.420 --> 00:28:27.839
anything.

635
00:28:27.900 --> 00:28:29.759
So we just have to go along with them.

636
00:28:29.819 --> 00:28:33.660
And then that reaction, her reaction to the fact that there's a

637
00:28:33.660 --> 00:28:37.680
demonstration, you know, a Vedex giving a demonstration, her

638
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:40.500
immediate reaction is so not her.

639
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:44.220
And you can tell how this story is going to go, I think.

640
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:48.480
I think, you know, again, I've seen this before, and I remember

641
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:53.640
the death, but I may not have known which episode it's in.

642
00:28:53.700 --> 00:28:58.019
And I definitely remember, you know, the ship sinking and staff.

643
00:28:58.079 --> 00:29:02.759
But the moment that I, I heard her, because the next scene is her

644
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:05.700
with Vetty Gasim, isn't it, talking about the demonstration and

645
00:29:05.700 --> 00:29:08.099
she's trying to persuade her not to do it.

646
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:13.980
And I knew that she was going to kill herself, you know, I love

647
00:29:13.980 --> 00:29:15.000
how that was going to go.

648
00:29:15.059 --> 00:29:16.440
Oh, to the point.

649
00:29:16.500 --> 00:29:17.279
Yeah.

650
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:20.819
The Dominion is evil and evil must be a poem.

651
00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:25.440
Yeah, and she's got complex reasons why she shouldn't oppose them

652
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:27.240
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

653
00:29:27.299 --> 00:29:31.079
But it turns out that, yes, is right, you know, about evil.

654
00:29:31.140 --> 00:29:36.420
Well, I mean, I think the entire station-based plot for out those

655
00:29:36.420 --> 00:29:38.880
6 episodes is always riveting to watch.

656
00:29:38.940 --> 00:29:42.000
They do such, they don't waste the opportunity of having the

657
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:42.839
Dominion on the station.

658
00:29:42.900 --> 00:29:44.339
And you have that.

659
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:45.539
Is that the 1st we've seen of it?

660
00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:46.920
Like, it doesn't happen.

661
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:47.279
No.

662
00:29:47.339 --> 00:29:48.779
So they don't do it in episode one.

663
00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:50.460
No, they do.

664
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:50.819
They do.

665
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:51.900
No, they do in episode one.

666
00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:56.099
You've got that brilliant scene in episode one where Ducat says to

667
00:29:56.099 --> 00:30:00.180
Kira, I could make things very comfortable for you here, Kira.

668
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.779
And she goes, you could start by doing something about your breath

669
00:30:03.900 --> 00:30:04.559
your breath.

670
00:30:05.339 --> 00:30:10.140
It's also got that amazing scene where Quark says, you know, can

671
00:30:10.140 --> 00:30:13.799
you hear the deaths of people on the promenade like you did during

672
00:30:13.799 --> 00:30:14.339
the year?

673
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:17.519
He goes, this as occupations go, this isn't so bad.

674
00:30:17.579 --> 00:30:18.779
Yeah, yeah.

675
00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:22.619
So they really sort of lean into it and do interesting things with

676
00:30:22.619 --> 00:30:22.799
it.

677
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:31.019
Yeah, look at look at Ivery with his kind of that red thing down

678
00:30:31.019 --> 00:30:34.380
you know, like they, they, he looks as hot as he did.

679
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:35.819
What was that show we did before this?

680
00:30:35.940 --> 00:30:38.880
that began with a B, the police show.

681
00:30:38.940 --> 00:30:40.319
Booker?

682
00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:41.220
Brooker, something like that.

683
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:41.880
Oh okay.

684
00:30:41.940 --> 00:30:45.539
But I've seen steals of him with a gun looking as hot as that, you

685
00:30:45.539 --> 00:30:45.720
know.

686
00:30:45.779 --> 00:30:47.940
Finally, they're letting him do what he can do.

687
00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:51.000
And then this, okay.

688
00:30:51.059 --> 00:30:57.119
Okay, so I complained too, in Battle of, in Battle of, what is it

689
00:30:57.119 --> 00:30:57.420
C.

690
00:30:57.420 --> 00:30:58.019
Gervade?

691
00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:07.920
558 558 Yeah, that, that, the, the, the, the, the firefights were

692
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:13.079
really weightless, like, um, and those, I, I still maintain that

693
00:31:13.079 --> 00:31:16.200
those federation rifles look shit, because they look like they

694
00:31:16.200 --> 00:31:20.519
don't weigh anything, and so they, they don't really land, but

695
00:31:20.519 --> 00:31:24.539
there's a practical explosion every time one of those federation

696
00:31:24.539 --> 00:31:28.319
weapons hits the ground, and I think that that sells it a little

697
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:28.859
bit better.

698
00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:33.240
It's a bit less of a kind of crappy video game because it has

699
00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:35.400
effects on the real environment that they're in.

700
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:38.519
I mean, I maintain the AR 558.

701
00:31:38.700 --> 00:31:41.099
That's all at the end of that is one of my favourites.

702
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:43.200
I think they do that brilliantly within the studio.

703
00:31:43.259 --> 00:31:46.980
But here you've got the space and you can just genuinely blow the

704
00:31:46.980 --> 00:31:48.180
crap out of this war.

705
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.359
So there's lots of physical effects and debris flying.

706
00:31:51.420 --> 00:31:54.240
And there's lots of places to hide as well, you know?

707
00:31:54.299 --> 00:32:03.180
But I also think the fact that the Jemhadara people in this makes

708
00:32:03.180 --> 00:32:04.140
it more interesting.

709
00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:05.279
Oh, definitely.

710
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:08.039
Yeah, because they're not people in AR 558.

711
00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:10.619
Well, I do think that's a... deliberate from them.

712
00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:14.400
Yeah, we're just seeing our side of the lines and happy no

713
00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:14.880
suffering.

714
00:32:14.940 --> 00:32:19.259
I think it's a slightly cowardly choice though, because they never

715
00:32:19.259 --> 00:32:23.099
feel like shooting these people is wrong.

716
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:25.200
They never, yeah, we just have to shoot them.

717
00:32:25.259 --> 00:32:28.559
DS9 does so well as well, which is show both sides.

718
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:31.200
That's what they did in those last 2 years, which show the enemy

719
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:31.740
side as well.

720
00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:38.819
I love this scene too. where the 3rd stands up to Keevan and

721
00:32:38.819 --> 00:32:43.259
refuses to allow Keevan to punish the man who lost his shit and

722
00:32:43.259 --> 00:32:46.859
started firing because he was withdrawing from white.

723
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:50.819
And he just stands up to it, says, no, I will deal with them.

724
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:52.799
You don't discipline the man.

725
00:32:52.859 --> 00:32:58.019
And, and it's, that's the same attitude, that that is the order of

726
00:32:58.019 --> 00:33:00.420
things, attitude that sees him obeying Keevan.

727
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:04.740
You know, he, if he obeys Kivan, then this rule applies as well

728
00:33:04.740 --> 00:33:09.420
the order of things, you know, indoctrination to the...

729
00:33:10.380 --> 00:33:14.759
Because real proper violence, I think, is done to the Jem Hadar in

730
00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:17.759
the way that they're created, don't you think?

731
00:33:17.819 --> 00:33:19.559
And that's part of the thing.

732
00:33:19.619 --> 00:33:24.000
Like the drug addicted soldiers in Vietnam and stuff like that

733
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:27.000
American soldiers who are addicted to drugs so that they keep

734
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:27.660
performing.

735
00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:30.180
You know, the thing, they kind of do it in that 2nd episode of

736
00:33:30.180 --> 00:33:32.940
Battlestar Galactica where everyone's on speed, you know?

737
00:33:34.259 --> 00:33:37.440
And this scene too.

738
00:33:37.500 --> 00:33:41.400
Now, so this is scene three, isn't it, of the Kira plot?

739
00:33:41.460 --> 00:33:45.960
And she's just sitting there upright, completely upright, you know

740
00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:48.000
just Look at her.

741
00:33:48.059 --> 00:33:48.960
Look at how she's doing.

742
00:33:49.019 --> 00:33:51.599
I think she thinks that she's going to get through to Yasm and

743
00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:54.359
Yasm's just gone all over from her body language.

744
00:33:54.420 --> 00:33:55.680
Yep, yep.

745
00:33:55.740 --> 00:33:57.599
I'm not going to achieve anything.

746
00:33:57.720 --> 00:33:59.220
Here again, she's fine.

747
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:01.619
Oh, you just don't understand to use it.

748
00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:03.539
And she's like, no, you don't understand.

749
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:04.500
Yeah, yeah.

750
00:34:04.920 --> 00:34:10.860
And it just that it takes such an act of violence to get through

751
00:34:10.860 --> 00:34:11.280
to her.

752
00:34:11.340 --> 00:34:14.639
Oh, it's unbelievable.

753
00:34:14.699 --> 00:34:15.960
It's good, isn't it?

754
00:34:16.019 --> 00:34:23.219
I also think too, I like the way that the Vedex provide a moral

755
00:34:23.219 --> 00:34:25.980
justification for resistance.

756
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:29.519
You know, Louise Fletcher is sort of curiously absent from this

757
00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:30.119
bit.

758
00:34:30.179 --> 00:34:32.219
But we have a Vedic.

759
00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:36.900
And because she, she's old and the reason she's old is we want her

760
00:34:36.900 --> 00:34:42.480
to have lived through the Dominion kind of thing and and she has

761
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:47.219
had the role of inspiring the Bajorans to resist the Cardassians

762
00:34:47.219 --> 00:34:50.880
presumably during the occupation, Vedec, you just don't

763
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:51.480
understand.

764
00:34:51.539 --> 00:34:53.519
It's so good.

765
00:34:53.579 --> 00:34:55.619
Yeah, yeah, I don't.

766
00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:59.219
You remember I said earlier about them learning from...

767
00:34:59.219 --> 00:35:03.059
But this, maybe tomorrow we will both understand that's when I

768
00:35:03.059 --> 00:35:04.019
knew she would kill herself.

769
00:35:04.739 --> 00:35:07.380
I never thought that was going to happen.

770
00:35:07.380 --> 00:35:08.579
Yeah.

771
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:11.579
I didn't I didn't think Star Trek was brave enough to show someone

772
00:35:11.579 --> 00:35:15.659
hanging themselves, even though we don't explicitly see it.

773
00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:17.280
With Kira.

774
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:22.440
With, uh, so they've spent maybe 3 years at the beginning of the

775
00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:25.320
show with her pushing against collaboration.

776
00:35:25.380 --> 00:35:27.900
There are whole episodes where there are collaborators in them

777
00:35:27.900 --> 00:35:32.340
where she's sort of angry and and so we know her position.

778
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:34.559
And then what they do in the latter half of the shows.

779
00:35:34.619 --> 00:35:36.239
They keep pushing her into positions.

780
00:35:36.300 --> 00:35:39.719
So they do it here with the Dominion on the station and they do it

781
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:42.780
in the last 10 episodes where she has to go off and help the

782
00:35:42.780 --> 00:35:44.219
Cardassians defeat the Dominion.

783
00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:49.260
Well, even progress puts her in the position of, you know, like

784
00:35:49.260 --> 00:35:52.860
taking poor old Mullerbok off his farm or whatever.

785
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:57.119
You know, that puts her in the position of an authority figure who

786
00:35:57.119 --> 00:35:58.320
has to do these things.

787
00:35:58.380 --> 00:36:01.320
See, only time I'm going to do this comparison, but they just

788
00:36:01.320 --> 00:36:04.380
don't have that complexity in TNG with the characters.

789
00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:05.219
Oh, no.

790
00:36:05.219 --> 00:36:07.500
It's just not any of that substance there.

791
00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:08.340
No.

792
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:10.199
Because they're just their jobs, you know.

793
00:36:10.260 --> 00:36:12.539
So how did this slip through the cracks then?

794
00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:14.039
Yeah, yeah.

795
00:36:14.340 --> 00:36:16.199
I'm glad it did.

796
00:36:16.260 --> 00:36:19.019
See, I love this scene as well.

797
00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:24.000
There's that, the great thing with, why should I substitute, you

798
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:28.559
know, give you 2 high ranking princes, in exchange, you just know

799
00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:29.039
you shouldn't.

800
00:36:29.099 --> 00:36:32.159
He says you're a terrible negotiator, which is so good.

801
00:36:32.219 --> 00:36:34.500
I wasn't sent to negotiate.

802
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:36.179
I was only sent to deliver the instructor.

803
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:38.039
Well, I want to speak to someone who can negotiate then.

804
00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:38.639
Yeah.

805
00:36:38.699 --> 00:36:41.219
It's so good, is it?

806
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:44.400
The relationship that he builds, the Cisco builds with the third.

807
00:36:44.460 --> 00:36:45.960
That's really great as well.

808
00:36:46.019 --> 00:36:48.840
Because I think there is, there's far more respect there than

809
00:36:48.840 --> 00:36:50.340
there is between him and Keyvan.

810
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:52.199
Do we see it elsewhere?

811
00:36:52.260 --> 00:36:53.820
I mean, I think we see...

812
00:36:53.820 --> 00:36:57.960
So there's a young Jem'Hadar comes on the station.

813
00:36:58.019 --> 00:36:59.820
What about the 1st Jem Hadar?

814
00:36:59.880 --> 00:37:03.300
We say Vorta and a Jem'Hadar?

815
00:37:03.539 --> 00:37:08.940
No, what's the one, what's the one where we try and create a

816
00:37:08.940 --> 00:37:10.860
substitute for white or something like that?

817
00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:14.280
Oh, that's Bashir and O'Brien on the planet?

818
00:37:14.340 --> 00:37:15.539
Yeah, she had a crotic oath.

819
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:15.960
Right.

820
00:37:16.019 --> 00:37:19.860
So we've seen, yeah, we've definitely seen sympathetic Jem'adar

821
00:37:19.860 --> 00:37:20.099
before.

822
00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:22.980
And the kid, the Odo's trying to raise...

823
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:25.679
But we've we've never seen sympathetic vorta.

824
00:37:25.739 --> 00:37:29.639
You know, they're always sort of comedy villains, like camp comedy

825
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:30.840
villains, I think.

826
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:34.380
And this, what's this story he's telling?

827
00:37:34.440 --> 00:37:37.440
So he's telling about a previous episode where the Jemadar killed

828
00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:38.579
the Vorta.

829
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:43.860
Oh, that was the one with the Iconian Gateway, that fabulous

830
00:37:43.860 --> 00:37:48.119
episode where they basically the Dominion blows up a pylon on

831
00:37:48.119 --> 00:37:48.719
DS9.

832
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:50.880
So then the fire goes after them.

833
00:37:50.940 --> 00:37:53.699
They've been they've been trying to get scientific equipment so

834
00:37:53.699 --> 00:37:55.679
they can find the Iconian gateway.

835
00:37:55.739 --> 00:37:57.659
So they're going hot pursuit.

836
00:37:57.719 --> 00:38:01.619
It's a rogue Jemhadar section that they're going after.

837
00:38:01.619 --> 00:38:05.340
And what is the 1st episode where Jeffrey Coombes is back.

838
00:38:05.340 --> 00:38:09.539
Well, no, the 1st episode of Jeffrey Coombes is eating with the

839
00:38:09.539 --> 00:38:10.260
Jemadar.

840
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:13.679
He develops a good relationship and at the end, he kills Wyun.

841
00:38:13.739 --> 00:38:15.599
That's that's the...

842
00:38:15.659 --> 00:38:17.159
So he's talking about Wayoon.

843
00:38:17.219 --> 00:38:17.579
Yeah.

844
00:38:17.639 --> 00:38:19.019
How's the water here?

845
00:38:19.380 --> 00:38:21.119
7 or something.

846
00:38:21.179 --> 00:38:25.440
That's got some amazing battle scenes with those knives slicing

847
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:26.280
through people's faces.

848
00:38:26.340 --> 00:38:27.059
Wow.

849
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:30.179
But so, so again.

850
00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:34.619
So this violence has been done to the Jemhadar and the Jemhadar

851
00:38:34.619 --> 00:38:41.699
honourable man, and because they're honest and they can be trusted

852
00:38:41.699 --> 00:38:44.039
I think, isn't it?

853
00:38:44.099 --> 00:38:47.460
Like, it, it, it, they could be trusted. within the structure of

854
00:38:47.460 --> 00:38:48.480
what they're...

855
00:38:48.539 --> 00:38:49.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah. right.

856
00:38:49.500 --> 00:38:54.960
So here, because like Cisco agrees to go and see Kivan, because

857
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:59.940
he's been assured by the 3rd that he'll be allowed to leave, that

858
00:38:59.940 --> 00:39:02.460
he and Julian will be allowed to leave.

859
00:39:02.579 --> 00:39:06.719
I think too, there's this kind of soldier's thing as well because

860
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:11.820
we understand, you know, what a soldier is and that there's some

861
00:39:11.820 --> 00:39:13.980
honour in being a soldier or something.

862
00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:16.800
But I do just think there's an honesty and plain dealing and

863
00:39:16.800 --> 00:39:17.219
stuff.

864
00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:22.800
And so, so the Jem'Hadar have been, have been harmed by being

865
00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:28.260
created by being addicted to a drug by being genetically, you know

866
00:39:28.260 --> 00:39:33.719
kind of engineered to obey the vorta, to regard the vorta as gods

867
00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:40.199
or the founders as gods, like, um, and, and the vorta hate them in

868
00:39:40.199 --> 00:39:44.280
return, the vorta just are completely um, contemptuous of them.

869
00:39:44.340 --> 00:39:47.400
And it's wonderful when they're all working together and they go

870
00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:47.880
hey, J.

871
00:39:47.940 --> 00:39:49.199
Blake 7 effect, isn't it?

872
00:39:49.260 --> 00:39:51.360
You know, you can have great catty dialogue.

873
00:39:51.420 --> 00:39:54.239
Do you remember I said to you there was a Star Trek podcast?

874
00:39:54.300 --> 00:39:58.320
Oh, hang on very quickly. this shot here of them walking across

875
00:39:58.320 --> 00:39:59.579
the water.

876
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:03.179
Talk about what you don't normally see in Shrek.

877
00:40:03.239 --> 00:40:04.019
That a lovely show.

878
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:04.500
Yeah.

879
00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:06.000
It's very stylish.

880
00:40:06.059 --> 00:40:09.840
There's a Star Trek podcast where it's 2 veterans talking about

881
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:11.219
Star and I told you, I think, before.

882
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:14.400
It's only a paper moon is one of their favourite episodes because

883
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:16.500
it deals with PTSD, something they've dealt with.

884
00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:19.500
And I remember them talking about rocks and shoals and I remember

885
00:40:19.500 --> 00:40:21.599
them talking about having to obey orders.

886
00:40:21.659 --> 00:40:25.860
I think this works on other levels if you have been in the tree.

887
00:40:26.219 --> 00:40:29.639
Yeah, because, I mean, that is an issue.

888
00:40:29.699 --> 00:40:31.739
Oh, he's saying four, I guess.

889
00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:34.619
Slow motion hanging.

890
00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:38.159
Yeah, but it's it's done off camera.

891
00:40:38.219 --> 00:40:39.780
Like it's done tastefully, I think.

892
00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:44.820
I think I think Nenal's visitor's reaction is enough for me.

893
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:46.500
Well, that's what properly sells it.

894
00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:46.800
Yeah.

895
00:40:46.860 --> 00:40:49.079
Again, it's slow motion, isn't it?

896
00:40:49.260 --> 00:40:50.760
Is it?

897
00:40:50.820 --> 00:40:52.800
Yeah, the hanging is.

898
00:40:52.860 --> 00:40:54.179
And then her coming forward.

899
00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:55.079
Watch.

900
00:40:55.139 --> 00:40:57.900
Yeah, we see the close-up.

901
00:40:57.960 --> 00:40:59.099
Look at her at the close-up.

902
00:40:59.159 --> 00:40:59.820
Yeah.

903
00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:04.500
I mean, I do think the hat folding is quite funny.

904
00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:07.079
Yeah, no, no, no, but I think the hat is good.

905
00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:07.860
Do you know what I mean?

906
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:09.780
Like I think the hat falling is actually quite a good thing

907
00:41:09.780 --> 00:41:13.619
because it reminds us of her role, you know, that she is in the

908
00:41:13.619 --> 00:41:18.300
right morally, that it's her job to support her people in opposing

909
00:41:18.300 --> 00:41:19.800
their oppressors.

910
00:41:19.860 --> 00:41:20.460
I think it's good.

911
00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:24.900
The trouble with Nanavista is that she's such a good actress when

912
00:41:24.900 --> 00:41:28.500
she's forced to play, you know, torturous moments, that they keep

913
00:41:28.500 --> 00:41:30.059
doing terrible things to her as a result.

914
00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:35.039
Yeah, it's same thing that happens to Michael. sadly.

915
00:41:35.099 --> 00:41:36.420
Oh, Brian as well, you know?

916
00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:38.880
They used to make a joke of it.

917
00:41:38.940 --> 00:41:41.880
Ira Bay goes, what's our torture O'Brien episode for this year?

918
00:41:41.940 --> 00:41:42.840
For the year.

919
00:41:42.900 --> 00:41:43.199
Yeah.

920
00:41:44.820 --> 00:41:48.659
Oh, look, all the Gemma, I want to see what the inside is.

921
00:41:48.659 --> 00:41:50.340
I love this line.

922
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:51.900
And the Vorton knows it.

923
00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:52.980
It's so interesting.

924
00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:54.840
Like, it seems to be true.

925
00:41:54.900 --> 00:41:56.280
He's not just making a joke.

926
00:41:56.340 --> 00:42:00.000
They've never seen what the inside of a vorta looks like before.

927
00:42:00.059 --> 00:42:02.579
And I tend to believe him.

928
00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:03.960
It's it's interesting.

929
00:42:04.019 --> 00:42:06.000
Like, they don't do anything with it or develop it.

930
00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:09.599
It's just a bit of colour, but it's really good, isn't it?

931
00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:13.440
Now watch visitor's performance as we play out these scenes

932
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:13.559
again.

933
00:42:13.619 --> 00:42:14.280
Yep.

934
00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:16.739
She just looks haunted.

935
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:17.639
Yeah.

936
00:42:17.699 --> 00:42:21.420
And the bit where it's on her, the camera's sort of going around.

937
00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:24.239
She's looking around ops and she's suddenly aware, she's

938
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:26.460
surrounded by Cardassians and Jemadar.

939
00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:28.079
I've been here too.

940
00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:29.099
Do you know what I mean?

941
00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:31.559
She's not engaging with the other people in the lift like she was

942
00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:33.719
before, and she looks tired.

943
00:42:33.780 --> 00:42:36.840
She still thinks Mayvag for the coffee because, you know, she's

944
00:42:36.840 --> 00:42:37.199
nice.

945
00:42:37.260 --> 00:42:37.800
She's nice.

946
00:42:37.860 --> 00:42:38.760
Yeah.

947
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:41.579
I love how this is sharp.

948
00:42:41.699 --> 00:42:44.699
Yeah, slowly going around her.

949
00:42:44.760 --> 00:42:45.900
She's taken in.

950
00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:47.039
Oh my fucking god.

951
00:42:47.099 --> 00:42:49.199
I'm surrounded by Cardassians.

952
00:42:49.260 --> 00:42:54.000
And the interesting thing too that works really well is that she's

953
00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:57.659
pale and red and they're all gray.

954
00:42:57.719 --> 00:43:02.340
Both the gemhadar and the Kardassians and the set, which is

955
00:43:02.340 --> 00:43:06.360
Kardassian, all have the same colour palette and she's red, you

956
00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:07.679
know, like she sticks out.

957
00:43:07.739 --> 00:43:09.780
She's white and red.

958
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:10.800
It's good.

959
00:43:10.860 --> 00:43:11.820
I think it's very good.

960
00:43:12.659 --> 00:43:14.579
How was the show?

961
00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:15.480
Informative.

962
00:43:15.539 --> 00:43:16.739
Yeah.

963
00:43:19.260 --> 00:43:28.260
That's so great I really love the theatre of The Vorcer just

964
00:43:28.260 --> 00:43:30.000
playing the Jemadar as well.

965
00:43:30.059 --> 00:43:34.380
So he's trying to convince for a couple of scenes that, you know, 0

966
00:43:34.380 --> 00:43:35.760
yeah, they're going to get us all out of here.

967
00:43:35.820 --> 00:43:36.780
We're going to be all right.

968
00:43:36.840 --> 00:43:40.199
And he was literally walking them to their deaths.

969
00:43:40.260 --> 00:43:43.320
He is irredeemable, isn't he, this character?

970
00:43:43.380 --> 00:43:44.639
Oh no, he's awful.

971
00:43:44.699 --> 00:43:53.340
And one of the things is that, you know, I think that this is a

972
00:43:53.340 --> 00:44:01.679
worst thing that Cisco's forced to do in the war is kill these

973
00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:02.460
people.

974
00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:06.659
You know, he's forced to kill all these people.

975
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:10.380
I think that's worse than killing Senator Renak and that asshole

976
00:44:10.380 --> 00:44:15.420
with the, you know, um, data chip thing.

977
00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:16.440
Do you know what I mean?

978
00:44:16.500 --> 00:44:18.539
They're going to this well, though, don't they?

979
00:44:18.599 --> 00:44:22.980
Yeah, but I think that this is worse because they're just sort of

980
00:44:22.980 --> 00:44:26.099
like one of them's an asshole and one of them's another asshole

981
00:44:26.099 --> 00:44:27.719
and like who cares?

982
00:44:27.780 --> 00:44:32.760
But these are good people, you know, who aren't to blame for the

983
00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:34.980
situation that they find themselves in.

984
00:44:34.980 --> 00:44:42.179
And they have been honest and honourable and he has to kill them

985
00:44:42.179 --> 00:44:44.280
to save this guy.

986
00:44:44.340 --> 00:44:49.500
You know, um, and, and like, in fact, the best thing about that

987
00:44:49.500 --> 00:44:54.059
final scene is the looks on the faces of all of the people who are

988
00:44:54.059 --> 00:44:55.380
about to shoot them all.

989
00:44:55.800 --> 00:45:00.000
I have got a great quote about that scene, but I'll say that.

990
00:45:00.059 --> 00:45:02.159
Garak, even Garak looks amazing.

991
00:45:02.219 --> 00:45:03.420
It's just so well done.

992
00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:06.719
I like how he described and then, you know, once the whites run

993
00:45:06.719 --> 00:45:06.960
out.

994
00:45:07.019 --> 00:45:10.139
They'll turn into senseless, violent animals.

995
00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:11.519
And we've seen that.

996
00:45:11.579 --> 00:45:14.159
Do you remember that scene in the beginning of 3 when they attack

997
00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:16.019
and they're just screaming and killing.

998
00:45:16.139 --> 00:45:17.699
But whose fault is that?

999
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:18.539
Do you know what I mean?

1000
00:45:18.599 --> 00:45:19.800
That's not their fault.

1001
00:45:19.860 --> 00:45:24.539
Like they've been engineered. and addicted, so they'll behave like

1002
00:45:24.539 --> 00:45:24.780
that.

1003
00:45:24.840 --> 00:45:29.699
Bad truth is, is the vorta is the more valuable prisoner of war as

1004
00:45:29.699 --> 00:45:29.940
well.

1005
00:45:30.059 --> 00:45:34.320
Yeah, but I kind of thought, you know, if someone had just bumped

1006
00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:37.139
him with a rifle and he'd fallen off a cliff. you know what I

1007
00:45:37.139 --> 00:45:37.260
mean?

1008
00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:39.300
No, the ending it gets is perfect.

1009
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:41.039
Yeah, that's true.

1010
00:45:41.099 --> 00:45:45.000
But, but, he's literally just walking into the wall.

1011
00:45:45.059 --> 00:45:47.159
No, it's weekend at Bernie's.

1012
00:45:47.219 --> 00:45:47.639
That's it.

1013
00:45:47.699 --> 00:45:48.659
It's literally that.

1014
00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:54.179
But it's that thing where they're forced to take this person on

1015
00:45:54.179 --> 00:45:58.800
board and rescue him, you know, even though he's utterly worthless

1016
00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:03.000
like just an appalling, appalling person who's responsible for the

1017
00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:06.780
deaths of 10 people and uses them in order to get it to happen.

1018
00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:10.860
Do you think that was always planned to give him that dreadful

1019
00:46:10.860 --> 00:46:11.159
ending?

1020
00:46:11.219 --> 00:46:12.059
No.

1021
00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:13.320
Oh, cro kid.

1022
00:46:13.380 --> 00:46:15.239
I think they went, oh, God.

1023
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:17.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1024
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:20.219
No, I just reckon, oh God, is Chris available?

1025
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:20.940
That would be great.

1026
00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:24.059
Let's get him to do it because he's so good.

1027
00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:27.239
Jeffrey Coombs is looking over his shoulder going, what's going on

1028
00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:27.480
here?

1029
00:46:27.539 --> 00:46:31.440
Yeah, so you said that you thought this was the best Vorta

1030
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:35.760
performance apart from Coombs.

1031
00:46:36.420 --> 00:46:40.619
But Coombs does a lot more things and stuff.

1032
00:46:40.679 --> 00:46:46.500
I think that this, like, he is so loathsome, Keyvan, like so

1033
00:46:46.500 --> 00:46:49.679
fabulously loathsome and a bit aristocratic as well.

1034
00:46:49.739 --> 00:46:53.219
You know what he walks through the dead bodies and sort of is

1035
00:46:53.219 --> 00:46:55.440
vaguely interested in looking at them?

1036
00:46:55.500 --> 00:46:57.960
You know, he's so repellent.

1037
00:46:58.019 --> 00:46:59.579
He's really, really good.

1038
00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:00.780
He does such a great job.

1039
00:47:00.840 --> 00:47:05.039
That's why his last line is so great because you just want someone

1040
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:05.760
to shoot him.

1041
00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:07.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1042
00:47:07.380 --> 00:47:08.579
Just by accident, you know?

1043
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:12.420
I really, I know they do this a lot in Shrek, sort of weighing up

1044
00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:13.500
the moral dilemma.

1045
00:47:13.559 --> 00:47:16.440
I just think the dialogue here is great because you've got so many

1046
00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:18.000
opposing viewpoints.

1047
00:47:18.059 --> 00:47:20.340
Someone's saying, oh, yeah, we just shoot them down.

1048
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:24.000
Someone's saying, well, we've got rules in war, Garak saying, no

1049
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:27.900
no, no, you've got rules in war and they may winning the war a lot

1050
00:47:27.900 --> 00:47:28.679
harder to achieve.

1051
00:47:28.739 --> 00:47:35.519
But I just like, I like, um, doesn't CSCO just say, um, excuse me

1052
00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:37.559
you know, it's not a democracy.

1053
00:47:37.619 --> 00:47:40.139
We're doing what I'm saying we're going to do.

1054
00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:41.099
Do you know what I mean?

1055
00:47:41.159 --> 00:47:43.920
And it's down to, when it comes to a choice between us and them

1056
00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:44.699
there isn't a choice.

1057
00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:45.780
Yeah, that's right.

1058
00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:46.500
That's it.

1059
00:47:47.340 --> 00:47:50.579
Oh, here's your, here's your, here's your one troubling scene.

1060
00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:50.940
Come on.

1061
00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:53.760
You've been far too positive throughout this episode.

1062
00:47:53.820 --> 00:48:00.360
Look, I think that, like, you know, it wasn't subtle.

1063
00:48:00.420 --> 00:48:04.139
The rest of it wasn't particularly subtle, but it's so rare for

1064
00:48:04.139 --> 00:48:09.480
Star Trek to give us an insight into what the character is feeling

1065
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:14.519
without just having them come out and say, this is how I'm

1066
00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:15.179
feeling.

1067
00:48:15.420 --> 00:48:19.260
You know, Star Trek doesn't really do subtext.

1068
00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:21.119
And so here we just get a long scene.

1069
00:48:21.179 --> 00:48:25.500
It's like where she just says how she's feeling and then he says

1070
00:48:25.500 --> 00:48:26.460
how he's feeling.

1071
00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:29.159
He comes his eye over the script and go, look, you can have all

1072
00:48:29.159 --> 00:48:31.679
those scenes, but again, you've got to tell everyone what it's all

1073
00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:31.860
about.

1074
00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:32.699
Yeah.

1075
00:48:32.699 --> 00:48:34.800
Yeah, I think it's a shame.

1076
00:48:34.860 --> 00:48:35.880
I do think it's a shame.

1077
00:48:35.940 --> 00:48:38.579
I think, you know, they think maybe we hear just for the

1078
00:48:38.579 --> 00:48:40.980
spaceships and the stupid latex heads.

1079
00:48:41.099 --> 00:48:42.900
I do like the line.

1080
00:48:42.900 --> 00:48:44.280
I'm a collab race, Rodo, though.

1081
00:48:44.340 --> 00:48:45.480
Yeah, yeah.

1082
00:48:45.539 --> 00:48:46.139
Yeah.

1083
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:47.340
To have her say that.

1084
00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:50.519
I mean, we did have a similar moment in Image of the Sand at the

1085
00:48:50.519 --> 00:48:51.119
beginning of seven.

1086
00:48:51.179 --> 00:48:51.659
Remember?

1087
00:48:51.719 --> 00:48:52.800
Odo exposition.

1088
00:48:52.860 --> 00:48:56.579
We were doing all this in this exact spot on the problem. right

1089
00:48:56.639 --> 00:48:57.360
right.

1090
00:48:57.599 --> 00:49:00.119
Oh, I was very handy for that.

1091
00:49:00.179 --> 00:49:02.880
But all of this, we've been here.

1092
00:49:02.940 --> 00:49:04.139
Do you know what I mean?

1093
00:49:04.199 --> 00:49:07.679
We've been here and it was done better before and I just think

1094
00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:13.199
they should have had the confidence in the audience to just let it

1095
00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:14.099
rest, I think.

1096
00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:18.900
Because you remember when Odo cheats on Kira with the female Shape

1097
00:49:18.900 --> 00:49:21.719
Shifter in a couple of episodes time, that fabulous plot in behind

1098
00:49:21.719 --> 00:49:22.260
the lines?

1099
00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:23.159
Yeah.

1100
00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:25.679
And then the pair of them makeup or what, they don't even bother

1101
00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:29.460
to show us. gone into a cupboard and everything's all right

1102
00:49:29.460 --> 00:49:29.639
again.

1103
00:49:29.699 --> 00:49:33.059
They trust us to, you know, we don't need 5 hours dialogue.

1104
00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:33.840
No.

1105
00:49:33.900 --> 00:49:38.519
And here I think there would have been a way of indicating that

1106
00:49:38.519 --> 00:49:43.320
she intended to do something from now on without herself, like

1107
00:49:43.320 --> 00:49:43.739
that.

1108
00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:45.960
Look in a mirror and be nauseated by what I see.

1109
00:49:46.019 --> 00:49:46.980
Like we saw that.

1110
00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:48.119
Don't tell us that.

1111
00:49:48.179 --> 00:49:48.900
We saw it.

1112
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:50.519
I just think it's a shame.

1113
00:49:50.579 --> 00:49:53.340
She maybe could have just gone back to her quarters and did

1114
00:49:53.340 --> 00:49:57.360
something in silence again that indicated the fire starts now.

1115
00:49:57.420 --> 00:49:58.320
Exactly.

1116
00:49:58.380 --> 00:49:59.219
Yeah.

1117
00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:01.559
But when it does, it's amazing.

1118
00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:02.639
Yeah.

1119
00:50:02.699 --> 00:50:06.480
Do you not remember when it's her, Rom, and they're all sitting in

1120
00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:10.380
quarks, and they've taken a pad that the vort has written up

1121
00:50:10.380 --> 00:50:13.559
saying, oh, God, if we can't get any more white, we're just going

1122
00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:16.079
to have to murder all the Jem'adar, and they've left it outside

1123
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:18.179
the head Jem'adar's quarters.

1124
00:50:18.179 --> 00:50:22.500
And then he comes into quarks and a massive bar fight erupts.

1125
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:23.039
It's great.

1126
00:50:24.119 --> 00:50:26.159
Here comes the ending.

1127
00:50:26.219 --> 00:50:27.719
Yeah.

1128
00:50:27.960 --> 00:50:29.340
Yeah.

1129
00:50:29.460 --> 00:50:30.599
So good.

1130
00:50:30.659 --> 00:50:33.119
I mean, and this is one thing I will say about doing this one.

1131
00:50:33.179 --> 00:50:33.719
They do.

1132
00:50:33.900 --> 00:50:36.360
They put a lot of people on the screen.

1133
00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:39.900
So in Ops, there was a lot of Cardassians and Gemini.

1134
00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:41.519
I don't know if they've done it later.

1135
00:50:41.579 --> 00:50:42.360
A lot of work.

1136
00:50:42.420 --> 00:50:42.719
Yeah.

1137
00:50:42.780 --> 00:50:45.000
So maybe that's where they put some of their money.

1138
00:50:45.059 --> 00:50:46.440
Oh yeah, for sure.

1139
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:48.539
That's great as well.

1140
00:50:48.599 --> 00:50:50.579
The way it swung around, that whole quarry.

1141
00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:52.139
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1142
00:50:52.199 --> 00:50:53.280
We don't cut to them.

1143
00:50:53.340 --> 00:50:56.159
They're in the same place because they were in the same shot.

1144
00:50:56.219 --> 00:51:00.780
We just move the camera around to them. a view of how they are... in

1145
00:51:00.780 --> 00:51:01.500
the advance.

1146
00:51:01.500 --> 00:51:02.400
Yeah, how they are in space.

1147
00:51:02.460 --> 00:51:03.000
Exactly.

1148
00:51:03.059 --> 00:51:03.900
Yeah.

1149
00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:07.800
I think that's well done But it's also them together on the

1150
00:51:07.800 --> 00:51:08.460
battlefield.

1151
00:51:08.519 --> 00:51:11.099
Like the 2 sides are here together, so they get to be in the same

1152
00:51:11.099 --> 00:51:13.199
shot because they won't otherwise.

1153
00:51:13.260 --> 00:51:14.820
And I like this a lot.

1154
00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:22.920
Like, I just like that that Cisco knows that he can walk down and

1155
00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:29.940
speak to the 3rd and he will be fine because they are honourable

1156
00:51:29.940 --> 00:51:30.239
men.

1157
00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:35.159
I mean, it ducks it a little bit because this now puts the choice

1158
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:37.320
that they die in the 3rd hands.

1159
00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:41.400
Because he basically says to him, let's band together and go and

1160
00:51:41.400 --> 00:51:44.880
stop him and the 3rd goes... not what I've been told to do.

1161
00:51:44.940 --> 00:51:47.159
Well, yeah, but yeah, yeah.

1162
00:51:47.219 --> 00:51:48.300
Yeah.

1163
00:51:48.360 --> 00:51:54.059
But the reason that that's not available to him, though, isn't

1164
00:51:54.059 --> 00:51:59.280
because some sort of coherent ideology has been explained to him

1165
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:02.400
and he's adhered to it and now he's going to do the right thing.

1166
00:52:02.460 --> 00:52:04.500
Like Kira, right?

1167
00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:10.679
Kira has been persuaded by the Vedec to fight back against the

1168
00:52:10.679 --> 00:52:14.880
dominion because she's she cares about her people and she's

1169
00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:16.079
convinced that they're evil.

1170
00:52:16.139 --> 00:52:21.179
Why does the 3rd behave this way because he's been addicted and

1171
00:52:21.179 --> 00:52:23.699
genetically engineered to do it?

1172
00:52:23.820 --> 00:52:25.320
He's been brainwashed.

1173
00:52:25.380 --> 00:52:27.480
He's a soldier and he has to do what he's told.

1174
00:52:27.539 --> 00:52:31.500
And so he has no agency, you know.

1175
00:52:31.559 --> 00:52:38.880
And so, so he has to be given the opportunity to, for an

1176
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:39.780
alternative, I think.

1177
00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:40.800
I think we need to see that.

1178
00:52:40.860 --> 00:52:46.139
And that this, uh, indoctrinate, whatever you want to call it, this

1179
00:52:46.139 --> 00:52:49.500
adherence to the structure of command and the abeyance of the

1180
00:52:49.500 --> 00:52:51.300
orders is so strong.

1181
00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:54.599
He will just walk his men to the deaths. to the deaths.

1182
00:52:54.659 --> 00:52:56.039
That's shocking, isn't it?

1183
00:52:56.099 --> 00:52:59.340
And I do think a bit of that has probably happened in the world.

1184
00:52:59.400 --> 00:53:02.820
Well, yeah, no, I think that I think I think that that's an image

1185
00:53:02.820 --> 00:53:07.920
of what gets done to soldiers, I think, you know.

1186
00:53:09.239 --> 00:53:15.840
And, and, but, but it's not all fighters.

1187
00:53:15.900 --> 00:53:16.679
Do you know what I mean?

1188
00:53:16.739 --> 00:53:23.519
Like, like, Kira's going to fight now, but not because, not for

1189
00:53:23.519 --> 00:53:27.239
the same reason that the 3rd is going to allow himself and his men

1190
00:53:27.239 --> 00:53:31.199
to die. you know, so good.

1191
00:53:31.260 --> 00:53:35.579
Just that he's been broken to accept this. get it slow motion, I

1192
00:53:35.579 --> 00:53:35.760
think.

1193
00:53:35.820 --> 00:53:39.000
He turns around just before he sends his men in and you just see

1194
00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:39.539
his mind.

1195
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:42.780
And I think it's the shot of the most honourable man in the

1196
00:53:42.780 --> 00:53:43.139
story.

1197
00:53:43.199 --> 00:53:45.300
You know, it's just Catherine really well.

1198
00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:47.699
Yeah, why do we read him as honourable?

1199
00:53:47.760 --> 00:53:49.860
Why do we read him as honourable?

1200
00:53:49.920 --> 00:53:52.079
You know, strange, isn't it?

1201
00:53:52.139 --> 00:53:52.860
Yeah.

1202
00:53:52.920 --> 00:53:55.739
Yeah, and I think that...

1203
00:53:55.800 --> 00:53:58.320
You could read him as just being stupid. fucking idiot.

1204
00:53:58.380 --> 00:53:58.980
That's right.

1205
00:53:59.039 --> 00:53:59.760
You don't.

1206
00:53:59.820 --> 00:54:02.099
Maybe that's the integrity of the performance.

1207
00:54:02.159 --> 00:54:06.360
It's that too, but I think that there's just an honesty.

1208
00:54:07.260 --> 00:54:11.460
I like the fact that O'Brien is there as well because he's a war

1209
00:54:11.460 --> 00:54:12.360
veteran, isn't he?

1210
00:54:12.420 --> 00:54:13.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1211
00:54:13.559 --> 00:54:16.440
And Garak's literally behind that rock with a look on his face

1212
00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:16.980
going.

1213
00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:17.699
I'm ready.

1214
00:54:18.960 --> 00:54:21.000
That's so good.

1215
00:54:21.059 --> 00:54:25.500
I actually thought it was a shame that they kill pretty gay boy

1216
00:54:25.500 --> 00:54:26.039
there.

1217
00:54:26.099 --> 00:54:26.699
What's his name?

1218
00:54:26.760 --> 00:54:27.179
Gordon.

1219
00:54:27.239 --> 00:54:28.860
I guess they wanted a loss.

1220
00:54:28.860 --> 00:54:32.159
I had to kill someone. slow motion shot of them all dying.

1221
00:54:32.280 --> 00:54:33.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1222
00:54:36.659 --> 00:54:39.539
That's that's just not your typical Star Trek.

1223
00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:41.400
No, that is pretty great.

1224
00:54:42.059 --> 00:54:45.239
Um, Nog looks absolutely disgusted.

1225
00:54:45.300 --> 00:54:46.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1226
00:54:46.739 --> 00:54:49.559
That's nice to react the silent reaction shots.

1227
00:54:49.619 --> 00:54:50.760
That's good drama, I think.

1228
00:54:50.820 --> 00:54:52.559
Yeah, it's a thing that they had to do.

1229
00:54:52.619 --> 00:54:55.739
Again, yes, rather than having a big conversation about how they

1230
00:54:55.739 --> 00:54:59.039
felt about having to kill them, we just get, we trust the actors

1231
00:54:59.039 --> 00:55:01.920
and the visuals to tell us and that happens so rarely.

1232
00:55:01.980 --> 00:55:04.440
I'm wondering if Neely survived because that was supposed to be

1233
00:55:04.440 --> 00:55:04.920
Dax.

1234
00:55:04.980 --> 00:55:06.000
They just...

1235
00:55:06.059 --> 00:55:13.980
I think there had originally been a plan to bury the Jem'Hadar and

1236
00:55:13.980 --> 00:55:17.940
and Taberry Gordon as well, and we were going to see that.

1237
00:55:18.059 --> 00:55:21.119
Yeah, this thing where he just walks onto the battlefield sort of

1238
00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:22.199
vaguely interested.

1239
00:55:22.260 --> 00:55:23.340
Do you know what I mean?

1240
00:55:23.400 --> 00:55:24.360
He sort of looking at the dead.

1241
00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:25.260
I don't think he does.

1242
00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:27.420
He looks even remotely interested in it.

1243
00:55:27.480 --> 00:55:28.980
Yeah, that's what I mean.

1244
00:55:29.039 --> 00:55:31.559
He's just sort of like, uh, like whatever, a thing is happening.

1245
00:55:31.619 --> 00:55:33.000
And he's so pathetic.

1246
00:55:33.059 --> 00:55:39.900
Like he's physically, he's not imposing, you know, he's pale. you

1247
00:55:39.900 --> 00:55:42.539
know, like he's kind of pathetic.

1248
00:55:43.559 --> 00:55:45.599
And he's still... have a line, didn't he?

1249
00:55:45.659 --> 00:55:48.719
You wouldn't have had a chance, you know.

1250
00:55:48.780 --> 00:55:49.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1251
00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:50.219
That's right.

1252
00:55:50.280 --> 00:55:52.860
And you talk very big for someone who was just lying on a fucking

1253
00:55:52.860 --> 00:55:53.280
rock.

1254
00:55:53.340 --> 00:55:54.480
Do you know what I mean?

1255
00:55:54.539 --> 00:55:56.699
Like, you would have sent a whole bunch of other people.

1256
00:55:56.760 --> 00:55:59.519
It's like my big brother could beat you up.

1257
00:55:59.579 --> 00:56:04.139
You know, like it's, and just that sort of loose way he's holding

1258
00:56:04.139 --> 00:56:08.219
his body as well, you know, like a child or something, like he's

1259
00:56:08.219 --> 00:56:09.119
just pathetic.

1260
00:56:09.179 --> 00:56:12.300
I do like the closing shot on...

1261
00:56:12.300 --> 00:56:13.320
Cisco's disgust.

1262
00:56:13.380 --> 00:56:16.019
Who, I've got to say, I kept meant to say it for out, but there

1263
00:56:16.019 --> 00:56:19.500
was too many interesting things to say, looks hot as hell for this

1264
00:56:19.500 --> 00:56:20.039
entire episode.

1265
00:56:20.159 --> 00:56:21.599
You're living sweaty.

1266
00:56:23.340 --> 00:56:25.199
Wow, that was good.

1267
00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:25.920
Yeah.

1268
00:56:25.980 --> 00:56:27.300
It's really properly good.

1269
00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:28.260
Amazingly good.

1270
00:56:28.320 --> 00:56:31.320
Ridiculously good for 90s trek.

1271
00:56:31.380 --> 00:56:31.920
Yeah.

1272
00:56:31.980 --> 00:56:35.219
But also, I never really thought that the 2 plots had anything

1273
00:56:35.219 --> 00:56:41.099
much in common, but, you know, there is a kind of why we fight

1274
00:56:41.099 --> 00:56:43.800
thing there, isn't there?

1275
00:56:43.980 --> 00:56:46.920
And that sort of interesting, I guess.

1276
00:56:46.980 --> 00:56:50.219
I think the Jem'Hadara just interesting in themselves.

1277
00:56:50.280 --> 00:56:50.820
They're so good.

1278
00:56:50.880 --> 00:56:54.239
And they get a lot of mileage out of them as well. throughout the

1279
00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:54.480
run.

1280
00:56:54.539 --> 00:57:01.739
You know how we said before about having arcs and trying to have

1281
00:57:01.739 --> 00:57:04.260
standalone episodes within those arcs.

1282
00:57:04.320 --> 00:57:09.599
I think these 6 get it far better than the last 10.

1283
00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:14.340
What you said about the last 10 was, we're inching the plots along

1284
00:57:14.340 --> 00:57:15.539
all these different plots.

1285
00:57:15.599 --> 00:57:19.079
So we've got maybe 2 scenes with everybody in every episode.

1286
00:57:19.139 --> 00:57:21.119
And like Tom Solinski, who we love.

1287
00:57:21.179 --> 00:57:24.539
He had a lot of trouble with that because nothing was moving very

1288
00:57:24.539 --> 00:57:24.780
fast.

1289
00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:31.619
I love it because if you watch it as a 10, It's a badly epic. soap

1290
00:57:31.619 --> 00:57:32.159
opera.

1291
00:57:32.219 --> 00:57:34.019
Overwrought soap opera, yeah.

1292
00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:35.460
Don't get me wrong.

1293
00:57:35.519 --> 00:57:36.420
This goes madly.

1294
00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:39.000
I mean, you see how I was deaf in the sacrifice of angels, you

1295
00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:39.179
know.

1296
00:57:39.239 --> 00:57:40.500
Please hear me.

1297
00:57:40.559 --> 00:57:42.179
I love you, miaow.

1298
00:57:43.380 --> 00:57:45.360
I don't forget that.

1299
00:57:45.420 --> 00:57:50.280
But I do think each of these 6 episodes are very strong

1300
00:57:50.280 --> 00:57:55.440
standalones and very strong segments of this arc.

1301
00:57:55.500 --> 00:57:58.559
And if you read the DS9 companion, which I have.

1302
00:57:59.039 --> 00:58:02.159
It was torture for them to get this right.

1303
00:58:02.219 --> 00:58:03.840
It was countless meetings.

1304
00:58:03.960 --> 00:58:06.539
They were all sending each other emails going, well, are you doing

1305
00:58:06.539 --> 00:58:07.079
this bit?

1306
00:58:07.139 --> 00:58:09.360
What bit am I continuing on?

1307
00:58:09.420 --> 00:58:10.980
Because this just wasn't Star Trek.

1308
00:58:11.039 --> 00:58:11.760
They've never done this before.

1309
00:58:11.820 --> 00:58:13.739
Yeah. to the fact that they got it.

1310
00:58:13.800 --> 00:58:15.840
This right on their 1st try.

1311
00:58:15.900 --> 00:58:17.400
Bravo.

1312
00:58:17.460 --> 00:58:23.099
Well, I mean, compare it to many, many years later, the if memory

1313
00:58:23.099 --> 00:58:27.420
serves episode of Discovery, we watched, which I don't think just

1314
00:58:27.420 --> 00:58:32.340
doesn't come anywhere near getting that sort of serialisation

1315
00:58:32.340 --> 00:58:33.300
right.

1316
00:58:33.719 --> 00:58:37.260
And I think that the discovery does eventually nail that kind of

1317
00:58:37.260 --> 00:58:38.159
serialisation.

1318
00:58:38.219 --> 00:58:42.480
I think that series 4 of discovery does a magnificent job of it.

1319
00:58:42.539 --> 00:58:47.340
I like serialisation, but we've now done 2 discovery episodes that

1320
00:58:47.340 --> 00:58:51.719
were kind of not very good when it came to serialisation that were

1321
00:58:51.719 --> 00:58:55.619
just inching the plot along without being an overwrought soap

1322
00:58:55.619 --> 00:58:58.440
opera to kind of take our minds off that.

1323
00:58:58.500 --> 00:59:02.159
Here, I think they just got it exactly right.

1324
00:59:02.219 --> 00:59:05.519
There's 2 plots, both of them have a beginning, middle, and an

1325
00:59:05.519 --> 00:59:05.820
end.

1326
00:59:05.880 --> 00:59:10.380
Both of them are worthwhile and well told with interesting things

1327
00:59:10.380 --> 00:59:13.440
happening to the characters and reversals and all sorts of stuff.

1328
00:59:13.500 --> 00:59:15.960
It was just really very good.

1329
00:59:16.019 --> 00:59:19.199
They both like, obviously, at the end of a time stand.

1330
00:59:19.260 --> 00:59:21.239
They were stranded on that Jem'adar ship.

1331
00:59:21.300 --> 00:59:25.380
So now we know how they get to the space station in the 3rd

1332
00:59:25.380 --> 00:59:25.739
episode.

1333
00:59:25.800 --> 00:59:30.360
Now we know why the resistance starts in the next episode, you

1334
00:59:30.360 --> 00:59:31.980
know, it's really, really great stuff.

1335
00:59:32.099 --> 00:59:33.480
Before we out this episode.

1336
00:59:33.539 --> 00:59:40.139
Can I just say one final thing about the director, Mike Vajar, who

1337
00:59:40.139 --> 00:59:45.300
is the standout director of 90s trek.

1338
00:59:45.420 --> 00:59:48.960
He directed the Change of Face of Evil that we watched recently.

1339
00:59:49.019 --> 00:59:52.139
He also does what you leave behind, Tears of the Prophets

1340
00:59:52.139 --> 00:59:53.940
Sacrifice of Angels.

1341
00:59:53.940 --> 00:59:58.920
Like, I think they realise very, very quickly that this guy could

1342
00:59:58.920 --> 01:00:00.420
deliver a really good episode.

1343
01:00:01.199 --> 01:00:06.780
This might be the best episode he's directed, I think, visually.

1344
01:00:06.840 --> 01:00:11.099
I'm only saying it because we don't often get to credit the

1345
01:00:11.099 --> 01:00:13.500
directors of 90s Star Trek.

1346
01:00:13.559 --> 01:00:16.320
Usually we just go, well, we're pointing and shooting again, you

1347
01:00:16.320 --> 01:00:16.500
know?

1348
01:00:16.559 --> 01:00:18.119
other lights on.

1349
01:00:18.179 --> 01:00:19.019
Let's go.

1350
01:00:19.079 --> 01:00:20.880
I think he's the aberration.

1351
01:00:20.940 --> 01:00:25.320
He's the one that's trying to push the show into being, and I know

1352
01:00:25.320 --> 01:00:29.219
cinematic's an easy word to use, but he's trying to push the

1353
01:00:29.219 --> 01:00:33.000
boundaries of what 90s trek can look like that shot of the German

1354
01:00:33.000 --> 01:00:35.880
Hathar ship vanishing under the water with them all in the

1355
01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:39.059
forefront coming out of the water is a good example of that.

1356
01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:43.440
So huge thumbs up to Mike Bajar, I cannot wait till we do another

1357
01:00:43.440 --> 01:00:44.219
one of his.

1358
01:00:51.119 --> 01:00:55.619
All right, it's the end of the episode and it is time for us to

1359
01:00:55.619 --> 01:00:57.900
work out what we're going to watch next time.

1360
01:00:57.960 --> 01:01:05.219
Rocks and Shoals was the result of a bout of excellent taste by

1361
01:01:05.219 --> 01:01:10.679
Joe. And so it's my turn to address the balance.

1362
01:01:10.679 --> 01:01:16.619
And so to that end, I'm going to choose from 290s track series

1363
01:01:16.619 --> 01:01:19.920
that have something in common. in that they're both terrible.

1364
01:01:19.980 --> 01:01:22.619
No, in that they're both.

1365
01:01:22.619 --> 01:01:28.440
They're both set on a starship called Enterprise.

1366
01:01:28.500 --> 01:01:34.320
So it's going to be Star Trek the Next Generation or Enterprise.

1367
01:01:34.380 --> 01:01:35.219
Okay.

1368
01:01:35.280 --> 01:01:38.699
Can I say I took us to Remember Me as well?

1369
01:01:38.760 --> 01:01:40.559
You took us to collective.

1370
01:01:40.619 --> 01:01:44.159
So my hit rate recently has been pretty strong. been better.

1371
01:01:44.219 --> 01:01:47.760
Yeah, no, I've been choosing the duds and it's hard to imagine

1372
01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:50.400
that I'm not going to continue my run with this choice.

1373
01:01:50.460 --> 01:01:51.539
Who changed to Simon Earth?

1374
01:01:51.599 --> 01:01:52.380
Was that you or me?

1375
01:01:52.440 --> 01:01:53.880
Oh, I don't know.

1376
01:01:53.940 --> 01:01:55.320
I think that was me.

1377
01:01:55.619 --> 01:01:57.960
Yeah, you've been doing really well.

1378
01:01:58.440 --> 01:02:04.380
Meanwhile, I've got interface from series 7.

1379
01:02:04.380 --> 01:02:08.219
It's normally in a series 7 episode of Star Trek, The Next

1380
01:02:08.219 --> 01:02:08.760
Generation.

1381
01:02:08.820 --> 01:02:13.739
They discover an unknown family member, but here Geordie loses a

1382
01:02:13.739 --> 01:02:16.380
family member to kind of redress the balance.

1383
01:02:16.440 --> 01:02:20.519
What is it about that randomiser and series 7 of the next

1384
01:02:20.519 --> 01:02:21.000
generation?

1385
01:02:21.179 --> 01:02:23.579
We've chosen interface before.

1386
01:02:23.639 --> 01:02:25.139
I mean, we've got interface before.

1387
01:02:25.199 --> 01:02:28.139
I'll eventually chosen it, but not today.

1388
01:02:28.199 --> 01:02:28.920
No.

1389
01:02:28.980 --> 01:02:30.659
Oh, okay.

1390
01:02:30.719 --> 01:02:32.219
I don't know about this.

1391
01:02:32.280 --> 01:02:37.980
This is from season 3 of Enterprise. which is still an area that

1392
01:02:37.980 --> 01:02:39.780
I'm keen to explore.

1393
01:02:39.840 --> 01:02:42.000
This one's called Chosen Realm.

1394
01:02:42.059 --> 01:02:43.019
It's episode 12.

1395
01:02:44.400 --> 01:02:46.739
I don't remember.

1396
01:02:47.099 --> 01:02:48.480
A single thing about that episode.

1397
01:02:48.539 --> 01:02:49.980
That's probably not a good sign.

1398
01:02:50.039 --> 01:02:54.000
Why can't you get one of those fabulous ones from towards the end

1399
01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:55.559
of the season where they're really good?

1400
01:02:56.099 --> 01:02:58.019
I, you know what?

1401
01:02:58.079 --> 01:03:02.219
I'm going to suggest you push the button again, only because we

1402
01:03:02.219 --> 01:03:06.360
have recently done series 3 of enterprise.

1403
01:03:06.420 --> 01:03:07.380
Okay, all right.

1404
01:03:07.440 --> 01:03:08.400
I'll press the button again.

1405
01:03:09.539 --> 01:03:14.219
Season 2 of Star Trek Enterprise, The Crossing.

1406
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:16.679
Help me out.

1407
01:03:19.739 --> 01:03:20.940
We'll say about.

1408
01:03:21.059 --> 01:03:26.400
So it's the enterprise gets taken over by non-corporeal entities

1409
01:03:26.400 --> 01:03:29.460
who take the, it's, I'm bored already.

1410
01:03:29.519 --> 01:03:30.420
I'm pressing the button.

1411
01:03:33.900 --> 01:03:37.079
You couldn't even get to the end of the sentence.

1412
01:03:38.219 --> 01:03:40.619
I just rolled a really good one.

1413
01:03:40.679 --> 01:03:48.119
And it's an episode that was heavily referenced in the 1st episode

1414
01:03:48.119 --> 01:03:53.099
of the latest series of Lower Decks, which screened last week.

1415
01:03:53.159 --> 01:03:55.619
It's the price.

1416
01:03:55.619 --> 01:03:58.139
Is that the one I watched last time?

1417
01:03:58.199 --> 01:03:59.340
Yeah.

1418
01:03:59.400 --> 01:04:01.800
And I thought we were going to do the Deanna Troy Romance

1419
01:04:01.800 --> 01:04:02.159
episode.

1420
01:04:02.219 --> 01:04:02.760
Yeah.

1421
01:04:02.820 --> 01:04:04.320
Oh, that's great.

1422
01:04:04.380 --> 01:04:06.239
Well, I had great fun with it.

1423
01:04:06.300 --> 01:04:07.559
You all love it.

1424
01:04:07.619 --> 01:04:11.820
Marina, I remember it well. gets a ditch all a good girl act and

1425
01:04:11.820 --> 01:04:13.260
just have a load of sex.

1426
01:04:13.320 --> 01:04:17.760
But you know what they did in the 1st episode of the latest series

1427
01:04:17.760 --> 01:04:19.260
of lower decks.

1428
01:04:19.320 --> 01:04:24.000
They recreated the scene where Beverly and Deanna are in

1429
01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:25.079
leotards.

1430
01:04:25.139 --> 01:04:30.480
Only it's shacks and ransom and they're doing the same exercises

1431
01:04:30.480 --> 01:04:31.260
and everything.

1432
01:04:31.679 --> 01:04:33.960
And it was a scene.

1433
01:04:34.019 --> 01:04:37.679
It was a scene that worked actually just functionally as a scene

1434
01:04:37.679 --> 01:04:41.219
of lower decks, even if you didn't know about the reference to the

1435
01:04:41.219 --> 01:04:43.920
price, but it was just delightful if you did not.

1436
01:04:43.980 --> 01:04:48.840
I think it's a really good, solid episode of Star Trek, the next

1437
01:04:48.840 --> 01:04:50.219
generation from season three.

1438
01:04:50.280 --> 01:04:50.940
I think it'll be great.

1439
01:04:51.000 --> 01:04:55.199
You know where the cameras are in those shots of Gates and

1440
01:04:55.199 --> 01:04:55.739
Marina.

1441
01:04:55.800 --> 01:04:58.739
So you can see in the mirror and see their asses.

1442
01:04:58.800 --> 01:05:03.300
In the animation, they've even done it, so you can see shaxies and

1443
01:05:03.300 --> 01:05:04.679
the other one's arse in the middle.

1444
01:05:04.739 --> 01:05:07.139
I'm like, that is an attention to detail.

1445
01:05:07.260 --> 01:05:07.920
I admire.

1446
01:05:07.980 --> 01:05:09.960
It's really pretty great isn't it?

1447
01:05:10.019 --> 01:05:13.860
You know, and the price has got just the most ridiculously

1448
01:05:13.860 --> 01:05:17.820
horrendous romance music in it, so we'll have fun with that.

1449
01:05:17.880 --> 01:05:22.380
That's got the Barsan wormhole, which is going off to being Star

1450
01:05:22.380 --> 01:05:23.280
Trek Voyager.

1451
01:05:23.340 --> 01:05:26.820
So a dreadful performance from someone in loads of makeup.

1452
01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:29.099
I mean it's just 90s gold.

1453
01:05:29.219 --> 01:05:34.920
It's really good and it actually is like it's a story that

1454
01:05:34.920 --> 01:05:40.199
contributes a fair amount to the premise of Deep Space 9 as well.

1455
01:05:40.260 --> 01:05:43.920
So I think it's important and it's kind of fun and I think we

1456
01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:44.340
should watch it.

1457
01:05:44.400 --> 01:05:49.199
It also has the best ever Troy line in scene one where Captain

1458
01:05:49.199 --> 01:05:52.679
Picard comes over the speaker and goes, Counsellor, try.

1459
01:05:52.739 --> 01:05:55.559
You need to get to the 10 forward immediately.

1460
01:05:55.619 --> 01:05:58.739
You don't want to miss the opening of the wormhole and then she

1461
01:05:58.739 --> 01:06:01.800
just makes sure he's gone and then she goes, No, I wouldn't want

1462
01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:03.599
to miss the opening of the wormhole, would I?

1463
01:06:04.980 --> 01:06:07.079
You've grown in it.

1464
01:06:07.139 --> 01:06:09.119
It's not a thought against nature is great.

1465
01:06:09.179 --> 01:06:09.840
Let's do it.

1466
01:06:09.900 --> 01:06:11.760
Okay, awesome. brilliant.

1467
01:06:20.880 --> 01:06:24.659
I'm listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and

1468
01:06:24.659 --> 01:06:28.440
Nathan Bottomley, where online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com

1469
01:06:28.440 --> 01:06:31.260
where you can find subscription links and links to our social

1470
01:06:31.260 --> 01:06:32.159
media accounts.

1471
01:06:32.219 --> 01:06:36.059
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was

1472
01:06:36.059 --> 01:06:37.800
composed by Cameron Lam.

1473
01:06:37.860 --> 01:06:41.699
This episode was recorded on the 12th of September 2023 and

1474
01:06:41.699 --> 01:06:43.380
released on the 15th of September.

1475
01:06:43.440 --> 01:06:46.739
We'll see you next time for Star Trek the Next Generation.

1476
01:06:46.800 --> 01:06:47.940
Nice.

1477
01:07:03.659 --> 01:07:05.880
Doesn't it have the scene?

1478
01:07:05.940 --> 01:07:10.800
We're in 10 forward, and one of the Ferengi goes up to the bar, and

1479
01:07:10.800 --> 01:07:14.460
there's a woman at the bar, and the Ferengi just holds his hands

1480
01:07:14.460 --> 01:07:20.579
out like a foot apart to just sort of to indicate how well endowed

1481
01:07:20.579 --> 01:07:24.179
he is, and she shakes her head and gets up and walks off in the

1482
01:07:24.179 --> 01:07:24.539
background.

1483
01:07:25.199 --> 01:07:30.119
It's also got that horrible scene where she's oiling his chest.

1484
01:07:30.179 --> 01:07:34.739
Oh, and it's trying to be really sexy and it's so gross.

1485
01:07:34.800 --> 01:07:35.760
I was just talking.

1486
01:07:36.300 --> 01:07:38.039
Oh, gee, weird.

1487
01:07:38.039 --> 01:07:40.079
I mean, that shade just cannot do sexy.

1488
01:07:40.139 --> 01:07:42.000
Yeah, for sure.

1489
01:07:42.059 --> 01:07:45.659
It's actually pretty great the way that Star Trek can do sexy

1490
01:07:45.659 --> 01:07:46.139
now.

1491
01:07:46.199 --> 01:07:46.980
I think.

1492
01:07:48.659 --> 01:07:50.880
They're all very attractive.

1493
01:07:52.019 --> 01:07:53.460
Did he ever do sexy in the 90s?

1494
01:07:53.519 --> 01:07:55.800
No, no it was always embarrassing.

1495
01:07:55.860 --> 01:07:59.880
It was either Horny Roddenbury sort of sexy from series one and 2

1496
01:07:59.880 --> 01:08:02.280
of Star Trek, which was just weird.

1497
01:08:02.340 --> 01:08:07.380
Like it was kind of leave your keys in that bowl near the near the

1498
01:08:07.380 --> 01:08:08.579
door kind of weird.

1499
01:08:08.639 --> 01:08:10.260
And...

1500
01:08:10.260 --> 01:08:12.840
That's for Sharon, Sarah's one of their...

1501
01:08:12.900 --> 01:08:14.219
No, I don't think so.

1502
01:08:14.280 --> 01:08:15.539
Like, I think he's sort of trying.

1503
01:08:15.599 --> 01:08:18.239
I think there's something there, but he's just a little bit too

1504
01:08:18.239 --> 01:08:19.319
kind of creepy.

1505
01:08:19.380 --> 01:08:25.020
And then, and then it's just like that embarrassing, like I just

1506
01:08:25.020 --> 01:08:29.039
you know, the worst Robert, trying to seduce the Delaney sisters

1507
01:08:29.039 --> 01:08:31.680
in a sort of gross sophomoric kind of way.

1508
01:08:31.739 --> 01:08:33.180
It's just yuck. hate it.

1509
01:08:33.239 --> 01:08:38.100
I feel like they're almost ageing towards something with DS9, but

1510
01:08:38.100 --> 01:08:39.539
it all gets a bit too mature.

1511
01:08:39.600 --> 01:08:44.520
So Cisco and Penny Johnson, that is it's a city couple.

1512
01:08:44.579 --> 01:08:47.640
They're very sexy, but they're sort of quite a mature

1513
01:08:47.640 --> 01:08:48.300
relationship.

1514
01:08:48.359 --> 01:08:49.199
So...

1515
01:08:50.159 --> 01:08:51.180
So how old?

1516
01:08:51.239 --> 01:08:56.039
Like, I'd be super interested to compare like how old Sanequa and

1517
01:08:56.039 --> 01:09:01.680
the guy who plays book are compared to Penny and Avery.

1518
01:09:01.739 --> 01:09:03.300
Do you know what I mean?

1519
01:09:03.420 --> 01:09:06.600
Because you read Penny and Avery as adults because we encountered

1520
01:09:06.600 --> 01:09:11.460
them when we were much younger than them, but I'm older than

1521
01:09:11.460 --> 01:09:12.539
Sydney.

1522
01:09:12.600 --> 01:09:14.279
It turns out they're exactly the same age.

1523
01:09:14.340 --> 01:09:16.079
Yeah, they're probably the same age.

1524
01:09:16.140 --> 01:09:19.020
It's just how old I was when I encountered them because I read

1525
01:09:19.020 --> 01:09:20.640
them as sexy young people, you know.

1526
01:09:20.699 --> 01:09:23.579
You see them kiss, but you don't see anything more than that.

1527
01:09:23.640 --> 01:09:25.560
But I just, I like all the intimacy.

1528
01:09:25.619 --> 01:09:30.539
There's a bit where Cassidy gets out of the bed and Cisco grabs

1529
01:09:30.539 --> 01:09:33.840
her cushion and smells it and then throws his cushion away and

1530
01:09:33.840 --> 01:09:34.380
puts it down.

1531
01:09:34.439 --> 01:09:38.939
It's like, it's not sexy, but I like, I like...

1532
01:09:38.939 --> 01:09:39.720
Instead of comfortable.

1533
01:09:39.779 --> 01:09:40.800
Yeah, yeah.

1534
01:09:40.800 --> 01:09:44.699
I suppose there is that one bit where Worf and Dax finally, she

1535
01:09:44.699 --> 01:09:45.779
jumps his bones.

1536
01:09:45.840 --> 01:09:47.399
She just gets on top of him, doesn't she?

1537
01:09:49.020 --> 01:09:50.520
So good.

1538
01:09:50.579 --> 01:09:53.939
Nah, I don't think there is a moment really, is there?

1539
01:09:54.000 --> 01:09:54.960
They're trying.

1540
01:09:55.020 --> 01:09:56.159
Yeah.

1541
01:09:56.699 --> 01:09:59.520
As for Tom Paris and B'Elana.

1542
01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:02.039
No one wants to see that.

1543
01:10:02.100 --> 01:10:03.659
No, or hear it.

1544
01:10:03.720 --> 01:10:06.000
Everyone on deck 17 can hear it.

1545
01:10:06.119 --> 01:10:09.359
When you get to 7 of 9 and Raffi is hot as hell.

1546
01:10:09.600 --> 01:10:12.180
Get your hands in my hair, Raffi.

1547
01:10:12.239 --> 01:10:15.239
They're older, they're older, you know, like they're older ladies

1548
01:10:15.300 --> 01:10:16.560
makes it even sixier.

1549
01:10:16.619 --> 01:10:17.340
Awesome.

1550
01:10:17.399 --> 01:10:21.239
Sorry, I realise this has now become the sex tag at the end of

1551
01:10:21.239 --> 01:10:24.180
this very mature episode of Deep Space Nine.

1552
01:10:24.239 --> 01:10:26.460
Speaking of which, Phil Morris, can I say?

1553
01:10:27.779 --> 01:10:28.859
Pretty.

1554
01:10:28.920 --> 01:10:30.779
Oh, smoking.

1555
01:10:30.840 --> 01:10:32.100
Hmm.

1556
01:10:32.100 --> 01:10:32.939
Yeah.

1557
01:10:33.000 --> 01:10:37.079
Yeah, it almost makes me want to watch Star Trek 3, but I'm sure

1558
01:10:37.079 --> 01:10:39.720
there'll only be in one scene and I'll just generally be

1559
01:10:39.720 --> 01:10:40.260
disappointed.

1560
01:10:40.319 --> 01:10:41.520
I'm fast.

1561
01:10:41.520 --> 01:10:42.539
Is that a good conclusion?

1562
01:10:42.600 --> 01:10:43.739
It's not free.

1563
01:10:44.039 --> 01:10:47.880
I think it's a bit embarrassing, but it's it's got some great set

1564
01:10:47.880 --> 01:10:48.239
pieces.

1565
01:10:48.300 --> 01:10:49.020
Star Trek.

1566
01:10:49.079 --> 01:10:51.840
It's got Christopher Christopher Lloyd in it, for goodness sakes.

1567
01:10:51.960 --> 01:10:52.439
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1568
01:10:52.500 --> 01:10:54.060
That's about sac Christopher Lee.

1569
01:10:54.119 --> 01:10:54.420
Sorry.

1570
01:10:54.840 --> 01:10:57.119
One last thing about sex.

1571
01:10:57.180 --> 01:11:01.079
I'm fast coming to the conclusion that for me, the sexiest person

1572
01:11:01.079 --> 01:11:04.140
in all of Star Trek is Afred Brooks.

1573
01:11:04.199 --> 01:11:07.020
There's just something about he's got he's got a something about

1574
01:11:07.020 --> 01:11:07.140
him.

1575
01:11:07.199 --> 01:11:08.399
Yeah, he does.

1576
01:11:08.460 --> 01:11:11.640
He does. presence and a fabulous bald head and a goatee.

1577
01:11:11.699 --> 01:11:12.600
Yeah, yeah.

1578
01:11:12.659 --> 01:11:13.199
Yep.

1579
01:11:13.260 --> 01:11:14.520
No, love all of that.

1580
01:11:14.579 --> 01:11:16.140
Well, you would.

1581
01:11:20.640 --> 01:11:22.979
All now podcasting buddies.

1582
01:11:23.100 --> 01:11:25.859
Yeah, I'm coming to that conclusion.

1583
01:11:26.699 --> 01:11:29.279
There's definitely a type there.