Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we are back in Star Trek The Next Generation for a classic
episode.
It's series 4, episode 23.
It's between Half a Life and the Minds I, and it's the host.
How do you define a classic episode of Star Trek, the Next
Generation?
Well, I think just mostly it's got to be in series three, four
five, or maybe six.
But it turns out once again, as with PowerPlay and the masterpiece
society, that this actually isn't all that good.
People remember this for the ending more than the episode itself
you know.
Or maybe also because it introduces the trill, which obviously
goes on. sort of, yeah, they do a lot of retooling before they're
back.
But it does introduce a major element that goes on to be a big
part of other Star Trek shows.
So it's so important for that reason, is weird, you know
statistically, you and I, how many next generation episodes have
we done now?
No, I'm not sure, but it's...
We've had 2 Dr. Beverly romances in the very few that we've
covered. don't think she has many.
No, and she definitely has a type because he has the same kind of
cheap romance novel hair, doesn't he?
As, as, um, what's his face?
I can't even remember what Ronan.
That's right And it gets lies like, you know, I believe you have a
earth custom of delivering flowers when you say goodbye
romantically to some.
I was like, oh, no one talks like this. not even enough Harper
Cartland novel anyone talks like that.
I think there's a sort of weird thing going on here.
So I think the initial idea is that we have an alien who is a slug
living inside a person, but it's the slug that's the person and
the person is just like a host, hence the title.
And then it gets handed over to Jerry Taylor to write the
screenplay. bad news.
Yeah.
And so it does become a Beverly story.
And someone in memory Alpha, I can't remember, but gets quoted
saying it had to be a Beverly story.
It's not a Star Trek story.
Otherwise, it has to be about our characters.
And so it is about Beverly's reaction to all of this.
But it has a real strong kind of case of not being about anything
not having anything to say, and not really having a kind of
coherent approach.
Like it doesn't, doesn't know what it wants to do with all of this
high concept stuff, I think.
Does that sound fair?
Yeah, the idea at the heart of it.
It has potential because we know they go on and use that idea in
lots of interesting ways of the host.
You know, the one where Jansia has the host taken out of her and
it goes into John Glover.
You know, it's the idea of the worm in the belly is really
interesting.
You're right, that's not really the focus.
We don't really learn much about that.
We're far more interested in, you know, Dr. Beverly's heartbreak.
Yeah, but we like we never really know why she's feeling what
she's feeling, even though she spends a lot of time talking about
it.
It's a very quick declaration of love, isn't it?
Well, I think we're assuming that they've spent weeks together.
Three weeks.
Yeah.
So it's a bit quick.
I don't know.
It doesn't seem like a grown-up actual kind of relationship.
And the one thing that I thought of, and this is sort of super
weird, is the guy from Counterpoint and Catherine Janeway.
And they're kind of working together.
They're burning the midnight oil, they're drinking coffee.
They're in her quarters.
They're working together on a problem.
And they have this sort of frisson. there is a sort of chemistry
there.
And that kind of relationship seems to be, even, I think we were
probably a bit iffy about that as well.
There's a kind of slightly daggy scene where she says goodbye to
him in the shuttle bay and it's all a little...
There was proper chemistry between the actors there.
But there was chemistry there.
Yeah.
Yeah, and we were invested in that relationship.
We love that one.
Yeah.
I knew this fellow was never going to stick around or this worm
you know, by the end of the episode.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No.
Well, that's the show, and that's part of the problem with all of
the relationships here, because this is Star Trek, and because
it's a space problem show, and it isn't about the characters and
their relationships, those never really change throughout the 7
years.
And so she's not going to have a relationship that continues.
Michael and Book can have a relationship, and that can be a grown
up relationship because now we write sex in Star Trek. with a
little bit more of a kind of sophisticated grown-up approach.
And the status quo can change and relationships can last over a
long period of time.
We just saw Penny Johnson Gerald burning Avery Brooks's Peppers in
the last couple episodes, didn't we?
And she was sitting on his lap and it was a proper sort of mature
relationship with people ongoing with issues, but they love each
other to pieces.
Yeah, you ain't going to do that here.
No.
So any relationship in Next Generation is doomed.
And if you think about all of the relationships that all of the
characters have, they're all doomed, like they never worked out.
Interesting, is they're not allowed to have a relationship until
they're all back in Picard.
So Riker and Troy are in a relationship, you know, that works.
They've got children, Dr. Beverly and Picard have clearly had
relations.
Yeah.
Picard series 3, you know.
But I just wouldn't let them do it here, which is a shame.
But Picard isn't a Star Trek show.
It's just a show set in the Star Trek universe. and so it lets us
do other things.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So this is a Star Trek show.
It's not about that at all.
So the status quo never changes.
And the funny thing is we were talking a little bit earlier about
Strange New Worlds, and in this week's episode of Strange New
Worlds, as in most of them, the previously on montage.
He's all about the relationships between the characters, because
that's the one thing it does change.
It's still not serialised.
It's still space problem of the week, but the relationships
between the characters develop and the characters themselves are
allowed to change a bit.
That's more sophisticated.
And it is blissful and far more satisfying than all of the other
curse because of it.
Well, I think it is perhaps the best Star Trek series since the
original, I would say.
I would disagree with that.
Not show set within the Star Trek universe, not Star Trek show.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And, you know, in Kurtzman Trek, I love discovery because it
attempts to do things that Star Trek had never done before and
attempts to push it in directions that it's never been in before
but I love Strange New Worlds because it embraces everything that
Star Trek and is prepared to be fun and ridiculous and silly in a
way that discovery never would be, you know, or Picard never would
be.
Here, I just don't think there's enough going on to sustain the 45
minutes.
I remember actually starting to watch it.
Like just now I'm thinking, what the hell even happens for 45
minutes.
I know Odan's here.
What goes on now?
What they could have achieved here?
And I was never going to happen because they weren't bold enough
to do it at this point is they could have given the thumbs up to
bisexuality in the future.
And, you know, a lot of people discuss this ending.
Because halfway through the episode, you know, Jonathan Freke
starts playing Odan, because the worm is in Riker's belly.
And, yeah, Dr. Beverly has this, you know, crisis, is Zodan, you
know, the shell of the person or, you know, the heart of the
person, which is now inside Riker.
She determines, you know what?
He's my friend Will Riker, but I can absolutely see that that is
Odan and I still love him and so she fucks him.
And then the worm in a good twist, because I don't think at the
time, maybe now. at the time, I don't think we thought they would
go down that route of the worm would go into a woman.
And then Dr. Beverly has a little singing at the end where she
says, yeah, we're not ready for this, yeah.
You know, the human race is not ready for, you know, a woman to
like a man and a woman.
So, you know, after change.
I think there's also a trans kind of allegory thing happening as
well.
Do you know what I mean?
Like some couples relationships don't survive when one transitions
and some relationships do.
And it seems a little bit like that.
But I think the whole tone of the way that she plays that scene is
just utterly wrong and weird.
And like I just don't think that anyone has a coherent idea of
what this episode's supposed to be saying.
You could just be talking about Gates McFadden's acting style
there.
That's really strange and weird.
But I mean, I've got a quote here, though.
If you allow me.
I usually hit these before we go into the episode because it's
something that people have talked about.
So Marvin Rush, who directed this episode, um, who's normally a
you know, a director of photography, but he did go on to direct
you know, the Thor, that weird one in Voyager.
You know, he's a good director, he's lumber with this bullshit
script.
Marvin Wash says, most people that I've talked to thought the show
worked pretty well were entertained.
So that's, we were wrong there.
Some commented that they were unhappy with the ending because it
was left a question.
There was or could have been a sort of homosexual aspect to it, and
we chose not to go down that route with it.
I felt that it was more about the nature of love, why we love and
what presents us from loving.
To me, the best analogy is if your beloved turned into a
cockroach.
Could you love a cockroach?
It's the same person.
If the person is the personality and the call within, but can you
get past the outside?
We as humans are affected by the whole package, including the
outside shell, and gates in her last scene talks about maybe
someday, our ability to love, and the fact that it won't be so
limited.
She says mankind may one day be able to deal with this, but I
can't.
To me, that is about the nature of love.
And I think it's an interesting worthy discussion.
Rather than deal with the fact that it was because of any kind of
homosexual bent per se.
I mean, the way this is phrased.
It tells you everything you need to know.
It's just that in our culture and our society, People who are
heterosexual, who want the companionship of a male because they
are female, wouldn't be able to deal with that opposite
situation.
This is somebody that has never had a dialogue with a gay or by or
trans person in his life.
Yeah.
I mean, like the analogy is what happens if your partner turns
into a cockroach.
I mean, so how do you play that?
How are we supposed to feel about that?
I mean, that's just such a stupid thing because none of it is like
anything.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, for now, like, you're doing a trans episode.
And someone made that comparison.
Well, you know, it's like if you turned into a cockroach.
I mean, it would be so bad.
But I don't know how to feel about any of this.
Like, what is it analogous to, what's it about?
Like, it doesn't resonate because it's not like anything.
Like, how am I supposed to feel about this?
You know, it's ridiculous, I think.
And what they choose to do eventually with the trill is they move
so this is all about the body, really.
What they choose to do is to sort of lean into the psychology of
it.
Are you the sum of your parts or are you the person you are now
you know, or, you know, Dax's serial killer, ex-host, you know
turning her violent nowadays?
stuff that's quite interesting to deal with. you know, psychology
is interesting.
But this is all about the biology of the worm going from person to
person or Dr. Bev trying to figure out, is this the person I fell
in love with in 3 weeks?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's a mess.
I actually think there are some bits that are slightly successful
and gesture towards something, but just basically, I don't know
what to make of it.
To say that, you know, when I was watching it, I did really enjoy
the cheese.
I think I may, yeah, I've been watching a lot of soap lately and
we've talked about this in DS9 episodes.
You know, so when you do have these, you know, agonising long
looks at each other, you know, and, oh, just kiss me now, you
know.
I love all that shit.
It's terrible telling.
It is really bad. terrible.
This is all like murder she wrote, level TV.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, let's go watch something, shall we?
Yeah, that's it with that ringing endorsement in our ears.
I'm going to count us in.
I will say I'm still unconvinced that Star Trek the Next
Generation is a good television show, all right?
Well, no, fair enough.
All right.
I don't get kerosine.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
Just hoping one day it all just clicks into place and I'm like, oh
yes, this is just show I fell in love with.
Okay, so this is Beverly's log.
And she has 3 things, none of which are particularly interesting.
Wesley is still around.
Uh, why is, where's Wesley?
No, no, no, he's off for the Academy.
But he's finally writing her letters.
And meanwhile, I've been boning this guy.
Now, I have to say, I have to say that higher definition does the
makeup absolutely no favours at all.
Oh, no.
We get a latex alien later who rags very high on the Beaumont
scale.
And I was like, I wish I couldn't see that hideous makeup quite so
clearly.
So, so, so the thing that, um, that Odan has, and I wonder whether
they tone it down in later scenes, but he's got this thing under
his nose, which is maybe meant to make his nose a little bit more
like uh, like Bem's nose, a little bit more like a dog's nose or
something.
And it's really distracting because you can see the edge of the
latex in close up really very clearly.
And then he's got this forehead thing.
And it is this sort of leonine look that Ronan has as well with
the sort of slightly long hair and the high forehead and stuff.
So that's Beverly's type, I've decided.
She's into the new romantics, you know.
Have you noticed that there's no spots?
There's none of the trill spots that we get later.
No, nothing.
And they did try and fit that hideous makeup to Terry Farrell
where because there are pictures of her with that horrible sort of
forehead makeup and then they just looked at her and went, why
have you made this stunningly beautiful woman that we brought in
to play this role looks so hideous.
And obviously we get rid of the the stomach protruding the way it
does in this as well because we can't be having that every week.
No.
So it's only doing that here for the end of the teaser effect
isn't it?
What's wrong with Beverly Squeeze?
Well, that's right.
You know how I always say the big thing that look at the latest
stomach as well.
Like, look how bad.
Look at the latex belly button and like you can see the sort of
seam where his trousers are as if it's stitched on.
It's really terrible.
It must have looked great.
You know what I thought?
I thought...
Not at the time, but I thought, do you know what?
If someone might watch this and think, it's the return of those
aliens from series one.
Because they, directly, their tummies protruded like that. and
they play it kind of like horror.
He's a nice hairy chest, though, this guy.
Yeah, I miss you and said there is some very strange sort of
horror music running throughout the 1st half of this episode where
I'm like, are we supposed to fear this man?
Yeah, yeah, but that's what it looks like. isn't it?
What we didn't mention is the way that data was inadvertently cock
blocking them and the way that Beverly tries to get rid of him.
Yeah. and yeah, because they clearly want a bone and he's he wants
to do analysis or something.
They are very good at those scenes in the next generation, you
know, because I can remember in later seasons where Picard's
trying to get out of things, you know, and they're all thinking up
to dreadful excuses so he doesn't have to see Admiral Nachev or go
to Captain Picard's day and things like this.
Yeah.
But I kind of think, do you think that, so when Picard, sorry.
So when data kind of comes back in Picard, he suddenly realises
hey, you were just kind of trying to divert me because he wanted
to root all those times, do you think like he kind of realised how
they were kind of manipulating him all this time?
I think it's his naivety that is appealing.
You know, that sort of childlike nature of data.
So that's what we love doing in the 1st place.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it is kind of cute, but it's very boring now.
Compared to what we're getting. boring.
The same shit of shit. shit.
The same ship.
Oh my god.
The same shot of the enterprise zooming past the credits.
Yeah, well, that's what we got in the 60s and now we have what we
get in Strange New Worlds with the same speech, you know, and some
Mount Doom speech. one of those amazing Kurtzman credits that we
get.
Oh, beautiful.
Okay.
So here we are.
It's the host.
It looks like a the opening shot of an episode of Lower Decks.
Now, we do need to point out that Gates McFadden is heavily
pregnant in this episode.
And there are some glorious moments where people stand in front of
her to disguise the fact that she is.
So she's, see, I can't see that thing on his nose in this scene.
Like I think it's there.
No, no, no, I think it's gone.
It's not as obvious.
I don't know.
So she's massively, massively pregnant with her son James, who is
now 32 or something like that, and we've already talked about now
our visitor's pregnancy bump, who is now a very attractive young
man as well.
So oh, 10 days ago, they met 10 days ago.
Very quick to have fallen in love, isn't it?
But like it, I don't know, maybe I think it took you and me at
least a month, you know.
That's right.
Do you know, there's a quote from Gates McFadden, you know, our
memory alpha where she wishes that Crusher's 1st romantic episode
would have been put off until after her pregnancy.
She's sweaty and pregnant and she...
She just sort of got a nice glow about it, isn't she?
Yeah.
They actually say that in the dialogue as well?
Doesn't doesn't Deanna say that...
It's the astringent.
It's astringent.
That's right.
That's actually a line that's really kind of funny.
I actually quite like that where Troy realises, oh, what's going
on there?
See, and this is, this is kind of okay because, like, it's over
the top and it's cheesy and absurd and, like, kissing the inside.
Do you remember Deanna on that boring fella from the masterpiece
society?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, this is hot as hell in comparison.
Yeah, but she just gets her leg over one night sort of thing.
I don't know, we talked about that relationship.
This guy's quite charming.
He's quite funny.
You know, he's, he's, he's clearly enjoying life a bit.
That fellow from the masterpiece society did not enjoy life.
No, no.
Yeah.
So, oh, dear.
So here we are.
I'm watching that high def, personally, are you watching all
that?
There are 3 beautifully rendered planets there.
One that looks very like the earth, I must say.
Well, and the one of the moons looks a bit like the earth.
Here she is.
This is the planet.
Yeah.
So what I think is really funny.
You watch Deanna, because these 2 come in from opposite, you know
they deliberately come in from opposite doors of the observation
lounge.
They kind of talk.
Then everyone sits down and Deanna's clearly kind of going, those
2 have been fucking.
I can just sense it from their emotions.
And she does a little reaction, which I just think is super fun.
You watch her when she sits down.
I love those ships on the walls in season one. didn't they after
four?
Seriously.
Yeah, yeah, they're not in.
Yeah, look, there's Diana.
She knows what's going on.
You know, I feel sorry for this address.
Not only because she's been given that strange hat that looks like
an enormous penis on her head.
She's got an extra nose.
Above her other nose.
Just hideous makeup that makes her look horrible.
And then she's stuck.
Scale 7.
I think.
Oh, you think?
I think that might be 85.
Eight, eight, five, five, at least.
She's also playing this, you know, deathly serious role with space
dialogue.
And so she has no fun in this role at all.
No.
I think, so there is something about this that I kind of like.
There are a few Star Trek, the Next Generation episodes that are
about taking ambassadors places.
Aren't they, where our job is to take ambassadors' places, and we
were talking about loud as a whisper in series 2 just before we
started recording.
But I think this one is so fabulously generic.
It is generic.
It's it's like Cupid's errant arrow and the people have mixed us 2
and mixed us three.
Remember arguing about the environmental things on the moons.
That's all I can think of that that's what this is making fun of.
You couldn't generate any interest in this at all.
No.
I was like, please, take me back to the cheese.
Yeah.
So in the price where, which is another romance episode where
Deanna's boning that car...
Oh, recently.
By accident, and that is about something interesting, you know
it's about an interesting space thing.
It's not just about a sort of They're negotiating.
They're negotiating for this wormhole, aren't they?
And you've got the guy that Troy is boning and Riker trying to
outdo each other.
And then Troy's in the mix because Riker still clearly fancies
it.
So there's so much interest going on there.
I don't think this is, apart from the fact that he is the
ambassador that's going to go along and sort all their problems
out.
That's the only link, isn't it?
Yeah, I mean, I guess the thing is the that that job makes him
necessary.
But it's the thing you text me earlier today.
Why don't they send the team?
Yeah.
Something always happens to the ambassador, doesn't it?
Yes.
They have a sort of great man of history thing about ambassadors
you know, before revun, there was no Klingon word for peacemaker
remember?
It's like they're rock star ambassadors.
I don't think there's enough scenes between Dr. Beverly and
Counsellor Troy, just having downtime, you know, because even
though the dialogue is pretty ripe.
I believe the relationship, I actually have a really good
relationship, you know?
But I think Gates is pretty great in this too.
So, because there's a subtext of this conversation about, um, her
being in love, it's a thing, like, she, she, I don't, I don't, at
least not very often, you know, she says, oh, you should treat
yourself sometimes.
And it's clearly about you should have sex occasionally.
You know, especially when you haven't done so in a while.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, that's the subtext, which I think is sort of cute and a
little bit unlike Star Trek.
It doesn't really do subtext during this era.
But I'll tell you how far we've sort of come on, because Dr
Beverly is a bit embarrassed by the fact that they're talking
about boning, isn't she?
Whereas yeah, you skip forward away in a warrior and Dax is like
come on.
We're going to go on the holiday and we're going to fuck these
amazing looking men and Kira's like, right, let's go.
So this was your glowing.
And there was that little moment where Deanna says, I don't think
it's a secret that you're in love and she goes, what?
And I was kind of expecting the 7 of 9 thing, you know, everyone
on deck 34 knows that you're boning, you know, oh, done or
whatever. 7 up 9 can make a passive aggression, sexual reference
on a dime.
Yeah.
But when was the last time we saw this?
It was in...
Oh, no, they had us.
Did they have a scene in Genesis?
Or was it in...
We haven't seen.
Oh, did they have a scene inside Broso?
Yeah, I think they were in their leotards and she was saying to
her.
That's in the prize.
I'm having the most erotic dreams.
Oh, yeah. my grandmother's novels.
Yeah, yuck.
My grandmother's diaries.
Oh, dear.
Well, and we've discussed this, haven't we?
The one shot romances and just why this doesn't work.
No, we can't work in this show just because they're not going to
begin. are uninvestable because of the nature of the show.
Yeah.
But I think Gates, like this is Gates more like Gates.
Look at that.
Look at her smile.
She's beautiful.
You know, and she's kind of boring as the doctor, but when she's
given something else to do.
She's actually pretty great and that's what we saw in Picard.
When she has to chill out, that's when she's fun.
Yeah, she's teaching data to dance and stuff like that.
Yeah, that's the problem with this whole show.
Everyone has a massive stick up there, Bart.
And it's, you know, we don't have that on Strange New Worlds.
Everyone's chilled and relaxed.
We don't really have it on Deep Space 9, even though it's from the
same era as this.
Stocking of stick up butts.
Here's Captain Picard.
Yeah.
Although he has a sort of weird moment here.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And like even when Riker is playing Odarn.
Like Odarn is more relaxed than the Starfleet crew.
And Riker's kind of body language, which is, you know, he's very
upright and stuff, but he also, you know, is always putting his
foot on the chair and all of that sort of stuff.
But he really relaxes when he's playing Odarn.
I thought that was, I mean, I thought that was a pretty good
turn.
I could see a difference between how he characterises Rikers.
Yes.
But what I couldn't see was the theme that makes O'Darn.
You see, the thing is that for this to work, Riker and Odarn have
to visibly be the same person.
And I don't think they are at all.
It's just Riker plays it different.
When the woman comes in in the last scene and she sort of walks
away.
I'm seeing the same moton from the beginning there, isn't that the
language?
Yeah, I think she does a better job of being this guy than Riker
does.
It would be so much more interesting if instead of Riker, it had
been the woman during that segment of the episode.
And Dr. Beverly choosing to be with the woman.
That would have been just amazing.
Yeah, I mean, they were too cowardly to do that, you know, and
it's network TV in the 1990s. and I was going to look this up.
There were gay characters in fucking network television in the
19th.
They just didn't want to...
There is a quote on memory alpha, that the merest hint of
homosexuality and, you know, there were complaints.
Rick Burman was, yeah, after...
It's a kiss on the hand, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
But then again, you know, you skip forward to rejoins, they can do
it in 90s trek.
Yeah, but again, that's pretty low stakes.
It's 2 beautiful women kissing and stuff like that.
It's like the least offensive Kind of homosexuality you can do on
television.
Judging at Dax and the poor queen.
Yeah, yeah.
So Do you know the HD does no favour to Data's foundation?
No, I can see it flaky.
He's got lots of blocked paws.
So I'm wondering maybe we should keep DS line away from HD.
Yeah, yeah.
There's a latex in there.
There's plenty of HD Star Trek to watch, if that's what you want
to watch.
We could keep this standard definition.
Do you remember in Sub Rosa?
Obviously, Bentley Crusher's having the time of her life, you know
all gusting all over the place.
And then you've got scenes with Picard.
It just seems overtly serious and stiff.
I feel like the same thing happens in this episode, every time we
come back to Picard.
I'm like, man, you need to chill out a bit in your world.
Yeah, well he's all work here.
I think there is something interesting in the scene that he has
with Beverly in his ready room later.
I think that there's something interesting going on there, I
think.
It's like, again, it's not until you get to like Picard.
And I know we're 20 years later.
TV's come on. and they've nurtured their relationships offscreen
in the interim.
But it's just so relaxed between the pool and believable, you
know?
But remember these people are their jobs in this show and in
Picard, their people.
They're not their jobs.
Absolutely not.
That's why I had a strange reaction to series 3 opening up.
I was like who are these people?
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, yeah.
And you get hints of it.
You do get hints of it.
And they do relax towards the end of the run.
So this is the thing that doesn't stay, isn't it?
So trills can't transport here and they have latex stomachs.
Okay, that was clever.
That was a, that was a shot straight up with her, her robe clothes
her medical robe.
Yes, that wasn't too bad.
That was that was not too bad.
We missed a bit where Patrick Stewart stands in front of her.
I hope not.
I think it's a bit later.
But she does start wearing this blue jacket over her.
Much like Roxanne does when she's pregnant during the Runner
Voyager and she has that jacket with the tools in it.
What side with Roxanne is they do write her out of a lot.
She doesn't get a lot to do in that season.
Well, 7's just come in as well.
So they've got a new female character that can sort of give
because heaven forbid we have 2 female characters getting a lot of
attention.
So funny, isn't it?
Think about strangely worlds and the majority female cast.
Except Nurser Gower's face.
She's like, geez, that latex looks shit.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's this shot up his nose where you can see like they've
given him kind of wrinkles in the thing above his eye, like below
his eyebrows.
It looks terrible.
Do you know that later?
My lover stomach did that.
It would put me right off.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so, so this is the big reveal.
And it's the 1st use the word joined to describe them. and
symbient.
Yep, yeah.
And they do say at one point, we'll contact the trill.
So they know of the trill.
Yeah, but they only know, they don't know very much about the
trill.
So none of them know this.
Which makes no sense later on when you learn the curves of Dax was
responsible for, you know, the Klingon peace treaty, the
Federation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, you know, like, okay, so maybe they don't know the trill very
well, but there's one rock star trill.
Another rock star ambassador, you know, who can do anything. you
know?
Apparently he went around having a lot of sex as well.
Maybe that's just a quirk of the job, you know, you get to go all
these fabulous starships and chat all the ladies and have sex with
them.
Yeah, so now that Odar is dead.
And I just, again, so there are things that don't survive.
Are there, aren't they?
And so obviously the makeup is different.
The transporter thing is different.
And the other thing that's different is that the personality is in
the slug octopus thing.
Yes. and not in the host.
And I think they change... do.
It's a conjoining of the 2 personalities in the end.
But why do they change it, do you think?
I think probably that this is slightly icky, and there's something
a little bit awful about Kareel reporting for duty with that flat
voice in order to just be completely taken over by Odarn.
So it's like the hosts are like slaves or they don't have any
because Riker's completely suppressed when he's when the host, when
he's hosting Odarn.
There's no Riker there, it's just Odarn.
It's not a, you know.
And so there's a kind of slavery thing or something.
Yeah, explicitly stated, is it?
No, no, no, no, no, no.
But there is something like exploiting these people. is very
monotonous.
And then all of a sudden she's emoting in the last scene.
Yeah, that's right.
And so, and what's more interesting.
And because as well, this episode wants so done to be the same
person all the way along for the 3 hosts.
For this to work, it's like, how is Beverly going to cope having a
relationship with these 3 different people?
Where at?
If it was a mixture of the two, then it would be a unique person
each time.
Yes, that's right.
And she'd say, well, I'm not in love with you because you're, you
know, William O'Donn or, you know, whatever.
God, look at that puppet.
What they take away eventually is.
You know, it's a bit...
What is it?
You know, kind of scary way.
No, no, I don't need to see a doctor.
Don't worry.
Why is it got a blue ring octopus thing happening?
Yeah, they lose all of that as well.
That sort of, you know, that magma effect. at the end there.
It's just a worm come DS9.
Yeah.
It doesn't even pulp something.
But what they go for in the end is that the host comes in and it
does sort of attempt to dominate, like Jad See, yeah.
And then what it does is it accentuates her positive character
strengths.
So the 2 come together and, you know, she's just, it actually's
amazing, you know?
But it's also the opposite.
You know, like only the very best people get to be joined.
Only the very most with how well now I know.
That's the secret, yeah.
Yeah.
But not everyone does get to be joined.
Yeah.
Asary Dax does, you know.
She doesn't want it, but no.
Well, that's a 2nd, um, that's the 1st trill joining that happens
as a result of an accident because of course Adira becomes, um
Tal's host through that accident that happens to Gray.
See, that's another thing too, because again, here's the trill in
an episode that is about identity and about belonging and about
love in a much, much more interesting way than the host is.
That episode, is it, but to connect?
Maybe, which had Adira and Gray go to the trill home world, and it
uses the trill in an interesting way to say something.
And the whole episode is about connecting and belonging and
finding a place to be.
And a deer finds a place where they can be where they can belong.
Do you know what I mean, among all of those other hosts?
And it's very beautiful in a way that is very cheesy.
Well, then I think rejoined is very moving as well and uses the
premise.
And I think a lot of it is down to the acting in rejoice. because
they're just such strong performers and the relationship feels
very real.
You see, Riker's got the hairy chest that Odan had the previous
Odan.
He's like showing off now, isn't he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
He kind of like, I've still got the hairy chase off.
This poor woman on the screen.
I do feel for it.
Yeah.
It's the sort of the opposite of, you remember when I said with
Louise Fletcher and she gets that fabulous tea caddy and she's
like, oh, let me wear it.
I'll embody it.
This woman's going, oh, I got to wear this hat, honestly.
For it.
Your costume's hanging up in the wardrobe just there, you know
we'll see you in 10 minutes.
Bless her.
Paul Wolf hasn't done anything.
No, this is his turn to get just sort of shout out the occasional
line about the shields, I think.
And who knows what all those extras are doing on the back
consoles?
Yeah, yeah, they're just pressing for vital work.
The functioning of the enterprise.
So do you not think he's a bit creepy now?
though, the way he just sort of stares at her a lot and he's quite
insistent, isn't he?
Well, except that they're just not talking about it.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, they've been in this relationship and, you know, it was very
quick and whatever, but it was fun.
They were having fun and stuff like that.
And then suddenly she's not talking to him anymore and he doesn't
quite know why.
And he hasn't done anything wrong.
And so she can't be a grown-up about it.
Like, he's right.
Why is she not talking to him about this?
And he is leering a bit, I guess.
You know, like it would have been okay for...
This is new for me.
I don't quite understand.
But he's saying, well, that's new to me. don't get it either.
And I think there's some sort of slight bullshit here. where, oh
you didn't mention it to anyone.
He says, well, no, that's normal for me.
I'm just a joined thing and that's what all my people are.
It's kind of yeah, but you've met other people.
I mean, like you know that not everyone's joined.
What's why not mention it?
What I would probably do if I was in Odan situation.
I can't believe I'm going to say this. is I would probably say to
her, 1st of all, like, how do you feel about this?
At the start of this scene, he is just leering at her.
Then he tries to, he's trying to touch her hands and it's not the
same person she's been having a relationship with, like, you
know.
Well, but it is as far as he's concerned, but I think because this
is what, 1991, I want to say, or something around about then.
And there is a kind of weirdness.
Like I found myself on edge about how consent was working here.
Do you know what I mean?
And the thing where, does he, she come into his quarters and stuff
and he says, you, if you're going to leave, you really need to
leave. not leaving.
So there's something very cute about this, but I don't know what
it's about.
So I'm firstly, I'm absolutely massively distracted by how much
fucking makeup they put Gates in.
She's got so much culture on, isn't she?
Yeah, it's because she looks like death because she's about to
give birth.
Maybe.
Throw some slap on her, quick, we can't shoot her like this.
But she's actually, she's selling this cheesy speech, and I love
the detail of huge breathtaking metal sculptures, and I don't know
what the story is.
Part of the problem, I think, is both of these are stories about
how they want men to protect them and worship them and stuff.
I don't understand.
It's very kind of...
Deanna talks about it.
Yeah, dad put in his arms around her making her feel safe.
Yeah, yeah, it does relate to Beverly's story as well.
But yeah, again, it's 1991 and it's a very...
And in fact, I do think that Deanna speech is beautiful because it
is my father died and I never got to experience that from him
again, but that's not happened to you.
Like, Odan's not dead.
You can go over there.
He's there.
You know, it's, it's amazing.
This is the only speech, in fact, for the Beverly speech that even
approaches what the episode should be about, isn't it?
He's had his face.
I see my friend.
Yeah, what did I love?
Like, you know?
And that's a good question.
If they really examined that in a relationship.
What is it that you love?
Is it how someone looks?
Is it how they behave?
Yeah.
But because they can't have real proper dialogue between lovers
you know, they can't just talk normally.
You know, think about how Book and Michael talk to one another.
Like, they're not constantly talking about their feelings for each
other.
No one touches my peppers.
Okay.
That says more, that one line than this entire episode.
Yeah.
And the weird, creepy way comes in the room now and stares at her
for the entire length of this dialogue scene.
And then when she turns around, he's just and the camera sort of
slowly goes in on him, just staring at her in a creepy way.
So do you know the the Twitter account Riker Googling?
where it's various, so, it's just various webs, like, it's, the
thing is, imagine Riker is typing into the Twitter input box by
accident instead of the Google box, instead of the Google input
box.
And so we see all of the things that Riker Googles.
It's really, really funny.
And it uses as its avatar that shot of Riker looking yearningly
across 10 foot.
I dreamt of saying what Riker would Google actually, given some of
the stuff he gets so funny.
If Twitter is still a going concern when we finish recording, you
should go and have a look for it.
The psychological ramifications of being turned into a simian.
It's very funny.
It is very good.
You could have a lot of fun with it, actually.
Like that thing there is almost a good speech.
And again, I can feel the connection between the 2 characters
here.
Yeah.
But again, like, let's think Bechdel test.
You know, the 2 of them have only ever talked about this man when
they've been together, you know, like, and the Bechdail test is
obviously a sort of blunt instrument for this sort of thing, but
it does capture something here.
There are only 2 female characters with names.
Close-up.
It goes on forever.
And the music is, it swells. traumatic degree. wonderful.
It's really funny because I was kind of listening to the music
play into the into the ad breaks and stuff and just being sort of
super annoyed by that.
But just how cheesy and strings and synth pipe and stuff is what
you said.
You know, the music is so cheesily romantic.
Send you that scene, you made it on the chat.
Just so you can hear again.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So funny.
The dreadful music.
Oh, yeah.
Do you know what, right?
You can't give you a quote from Brannan Bragger.
He's got something to say about this episode, you know.
He characterised the genesis of this episode as the most repulsive
story ever pitched to us.
It doesn't go into any more detail than that, but he adds, being
in love with somebody is not very fresh.
Having it, the parasite as a host is, it was not originally
pitched as a love story.
It was pitched as a squirmy worm who's really the intelligence.
So this is Jerry Taylor.
Jerry Taylor has added the love story.
Yeah, but she's right to do it because there's nothing here
otherwise.
Do you know what I mean?
Like who cares?
He's an ambassador to people from the planet Zog. to prevent them
from killing one another?
We really don't care.
So the love story is the only thing that keeps us going.
But Jerry Taylor can't ring anything interesting out of the love
story.
Can I say the disinterest with which these 2 gentlemen play these
alien characters?
They may as well be the Beaumont in this scene.
Where, yeah, but it's sort of, it's cheesy and boring and it's the
usual backstory thing, isn't it?
The one thing that is interesting is the conceit that they think
that Odan was his, like the previous ambassador who solved their
problems was this guy's father when it turns out it was just his
previous host.
And that reinforces the idea that the hosts, like, that Odan's
hosts are men, you know, that he comes from a series of men.
And so that does help to sell the twist, that it's a woman at the
end.
I'm seeing this without, obviously, I'm not hearing the dialogue
while we're doing the commentary.
And he is playing it very differently.
I know there's a relaxedness to Rike it usually, but it doesn't
normally lean back in his chair like that. with his hair flopping
over his face.
And he's, yeah, his hair's different.
His legs are more open, like he's just a little bit more kind of
chill.
And he's also got that sort of terrible sallow makeup because
they're trying to sell that he's unwell.
Costume designers on the Next Generation won awards for their
work.
I hope it was in this episode.
I think it was the Klingon stuff.
That's what won the awards. hats aren't terrible, aren't they?
Yeah, I actually kind of like the angry guy, like angry guy in the
green outfit.
I think he's pretty great.
I am completely obsessed with the trivia that I learn on memory
alpha.
Do you know, this is the only episode of Next Generation where an
officer on the bridge asks the computer what the time is.
Yes, we'll see it later, I think.
I think it might be Picard who does it. can't remember. somebody
has spent time in their life.
Writing out that sentence on memory alpha.
Yeah, yeah.
No, look, those things that we have to be grateful for the memory
are for people.
This is an entire, we don't have to worry about Star Trek.
Well, that I would have just never have dreamed possible.
The 1st thing I ever saw on the internet, my friend Matthew showed
me a Star Trek the Next Generation program guide in postscript
that we were able to print out on a laser printer and I had in a
binder and it had cast and crew and synopsis and trivia of every
single episode.
It was the 1st thing that I ever used the internet for way back in
like 1993 or something.
You may have peed with the Internet there, you know.
That may have been your opinion.
It might have been.
Now it's just full of tosses talking about science fiction TV
shows, I think. as you know.
Oh, there was a great quote from Jonathan Breaks here.
Look, the episode had to be shot in such a way that we couldn't
see her stomach.
They would not address the fact that the actress was pregnant.
It was an interesting problem.
You really found yourself more concerned with hiding her with
furniture or with your body and shooting her from the boobs up.
It was very, because it was a very just restrictive way of
directing.
Yeah, well, he's starting to think like a director, I think, at
this point, isn't he?
I guess, being in these scenes and having to kind of shoot around
her.
Yeah, see, that scene was slightly interesting.
Interesting problem.
Sorry, which scene?
Well, doesn't he say, please let me touch you and she says, no, and
then leaves, you know, and yeah, like, at least he's asking.
He's asking.
It's all kind of consensual and stuff and he is careful.
And, you know, perhaps that's more progressive than other TV at
the time, but it still comes across as a little bit awkward and
you know, kind of treading on the line a bit.
I can't help but notice you and I have talked very little about
the subplot on the alien planet.
Yeah, because there's nothing to it, is there?
Like, it's just there.
We need a reason to keep Odan alive.
We need a reason to transplant him into Riker, and it's because
this job needs to be done.
That's got to be the crisis and then the trill get delayed or
whatever.
And the, that plot allows the crisis to happen by having some
dissident, you know, fire on the shuttle or whatever.
So this is the old but she's here, right?
So we cut between Odan's quarters, where he's thinking about Dr
Beverly and Dr. Beverly's quarters, where she's thinking about...
And then, you know, it sort of ramps up and ramps up, then she
comes flying through his doors, and he's like, if you're going to
go, go now, because I really want to kiss you, and she goes, I am
not leaving.
I'm going.
I think I've seen that on murder she wrote, you know, a couple of
times.
Yeah, and the stupid replicator doesn't even make balso, Tommy
tonic, for God's sake.
What's wrong?
I do wonder if Jerry Taylor's had a romance, you know, if it's
been like this.
But look at the, like, or maybe she reads lots of, like, I read
romance novels.
I'll admit it.
But like hot gay ones, I hope.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I'm not reading heterosexual stuff that's so played.
But...
I tried recently, you know, I got a chapter and I was like, no, I
can't do this.
No, I'm done.
Yeah.
Oh here we go.
And Paul Frakes and McFadden.
They must have been like, how are we gonna play this?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I think that's the problem a little bit, isn't it?
Because this is weird.
Like, again, it's Star Trek doesn't do subtext.
Um, and so there's something really sort of awkward about this.
It's super obvious, you know, it's, I don't know, it's not...
It's not subtle enough.
It's not obvious.
She's doing that sort of zombie thing again where she sort of
looks off camera.
It's so weird how our acting shifts. depending on whether she's
comfortable in the scene or not.
Oh, here we go.
I don't think I don't think that Jonathan's very...
No.
And then, you know what?
like, um, Renee and Nanal were not comfortable kissing in his
way.
Fuck me, they go for it.
That scene on the promenade.
I mean, that snug lasts about 10 minutes.
Yeah, the half his face comes off.
It's true.
She goes, a loose romantic kiss because his rubbery mouth ripped
off.
I was like, all the way.
Is this the same you was talking about between Picard and Beverly
Crusher?
Yeah, because there's something there, you know, like there isn't
very much backstory between the characters, but the 2 characters
that do have the backstory are her and him.
And we will wait until maybe is it season 7 when we get attached
where we actually kind of chain them to each other and they
realise their true feelings for one another.
I think it is quite late in the run.
It was very bored.
Yeah, it is, it's not very good.
But, um, you know, you, if you people go back and listen to our
last 5 or 10 next generation episodes.
Now you say that a lot.
I've noticed that.
There's something almost there, but it's not there.
Now, is it the fact that this is being churned out at such a
rate?
They can't really write these scripts with any sort of depth or
substance.
Yeah, and I also think they're just not very brave.
I think that they find because is it is it kind of PTSD after
seasons one and two, which do more weird things, but which fuck up
on a really spectacularly regular basis?
I think they're almost more entertaining, though, because of it.
Yeah, whereas here they've found a groove and they just kind of go
with it and they do the same thing every week and I just think
that it's less interesting.
And then they don't go for it.
They don't take risks.
It's really very safe, I think.
It's such a weird dilemma to being though, to be far more
comfortable writing, I know, a science fiction puzzle than it is
just getting basic human emotions, right?
Yeah, yeah.
So we'll love something like conundrum or frame of mind or like
that, you know, where we've got to think our way out of the
episode.
But 45 minutes of Dr. Beverly agonising over her lover.
Yeah, is super boring.
See, this, where he actually stops and says, I'm your friend, and
it's whatever else I am, I'm the man who was, you know, intimately
involved in the death of your husband, and then she hugs him, which
I think is, you know, again so rare.
And then that look, the look, you know, the over the shoulder look
where they can't see one another's face, the way he doesn't quite
tentatively brings his arm around as well.
That's something that no one TNG gets right is that sort of
suggestion.
That there are feelings here.
And it is almost like that moonlighting thing of like, will they
won't they?
We know they won't.
It's not quite as good as that.
But it's quite nice that they possibly will.
Yeah, because there's enough backstory between those 2 characters
they come with that.
It doesn't develop beyond what we learn in the pilot, really, but
it is something.
He does look rough.
Now he's going to come.
I know we talk about the light, we go, 90s track, a lot now, but
the overhead lighting and all these things.
It doesn't, there seems no favour whatsoever.
No.
There's no hint of a shadow in this set anywhere.
Yeah, there's no texture. hunted them down and killed them.
I wouldn't have a hope.
Yeah.
But and then you complain about Picard, you know, because Picard
is so dark. but I think that part of the joy of series 3 of Picard
was seeing these characters underlit for a change.
Particular things are also fucking old.
Dreadful fucking...
But that's the other thing. too.
That's the great fun thing is then we go back.
It's better lit than it is in 90s trek, but it is much more evenly
lit, and that's the contrast, which is kind of found...
Oh, very 1st episode where we went to the alternative universe.
Yesterday's Enterprise and it was really dark and gorgeous.
Yeah.
You and me were going hard.
We could have had this all along.
What's going on?
I did complain about Picard being in the ready room, you know, with
all the lights off.
Like he's just sitting there.
He's just sort of a silhouette. wasn't he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
His face looming out of the dark.
Oh, dear, oh dear.
Oh, we have missed a scene where, okay, just for everybody.
It's about halfway through the episode.
If you watch this, watch the scene where they're all in the ready
room with the alien woman and Dr. Bev's right at the back of the
scene and Patrick Stewart's in front of her and then she starts to
move into shot and you can almost see her stomach.
So Patrick Stewart looks off off camera and has clearly been given
a note saying, will you move to the right place and cover up us?
So he steps right in front of her.
So you can't see her in the shop.
Okay.
So here is Kareel. and she's turned up and she's speaking in a
real flat monotone because she's going to be the new host and we
can't feel bad about her being taken over by Odan.
Did you notice that ship, the trill ship, is the same ship that
the packlids have in Samaritan Snare?
And it's the ship that the pack led ship in Lower Decks is based
on as well.
And look.
Yeah, it is.
But they only have a few models.
You're right.
The way Gates plays this scene, very weird.
Oh, here's the thing.
She plays it like she's angry with her. you get anger from this?
Yeah, I, not, not Koreal, not Odan.
Oh, Dan is playing it heaps like the original actor. right?
I think he's in the lies, though, isn't he?
Oh, you were there, the war.
Well done.
You know?
Yeah, she's like she's snippy, you know, like he's done something
wrong and like she's kind of snippy and tight lipped.
She gives this tight little smile.
She goes, oh, I've always loved you, but it's like it's really
grudging and there's something slightly homophobic about it as
well.
It's kind of like, yeah, it just feels different. you know, we're
not ready for this yet.
What she's saying is American television is not ready for this
yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
But when she says, but look, that tight smile and then she goes
and when she says perhaps it's a human failing that we can't, you
know, love has its limits or whatever.
And this is stupid.
Now this is stupid, right?
She can't keep up because he's gonna be a different person every
week or something.
And it's like, there was a fucking shuttle accident.
You know, like your partner could be anyone's partner could be a
different person after a traumatic event.
You know, like you, you sign up in sickness and health or
whatever.
And that's a thing.
That could happen.
You know, some terrible thing could happen and your partner
changes.
Your partner gets older as you get older.
Like people change.
This is not unusual.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, if her partner turned out to be trans, that would be it.
You can handle this, so sorry.
But, and you know, for some people it is.
Like, yes, for some people it is. and and find whatever, you know
like I don't know what that would be like.
I don't know how I would feel about that either.
One thing I liked was when she kissed her and there's a flicker of
emotion on Dr. Bev's face of like, she feels something.
I don't think it's shocked.
I think you're shock.
I think it's almost like, okay, I didn't expect to be turned on by
you getting my hand.
Only, if only.
But it's an absurd message to go out on, though.
In a show that's supposed to celebrate diversity.
But if she, like, you know, we've got to find a way of ending the
relationship, right?
Because Odan can't be in next week's episode.
Then maybe you should be Odan saying to Dr. Bev.
I'm a different person now because the host is in me and I can't
be with you.
But that's the point.
He's not a different person, is it?
But that would leave less of a taste in your mouth than Dr
Beverly's saying you're a woman.
I can't handle this.
What if she was playing it differently?
And what if...
Yeah.
You know, at the beginning of the episode where we said, well, we
don't, we're not convinced anyway, because they've only known each
other for 10 days and she's desperately in love with this man.
We're so far removed from anything you and I can buy into now
because that worm's gone from one person to another person.
Add on the fact that we don't buy into the relationship at the
beginning.
It's like, well, I don't understand what I'm supposed to be
feeling now at the end.
No, that's it.
That's exactly it And like I kind of think that you could have
played that dialogue in a way that was wistful and regretful.
And she could have kind of said, you know, she could have made it
clear that she's traumatised by these changes. you know what I
mean?
These accidents and these things that have happened, that
something went wrong and the relationship just can't survive, the
the trauma and the change as a result, but not this, you know
we're not ready for homosexuality. the 24th century.
And I know this is a what if and it never would have happened.
What I would have loved was for Odan to have said, do you know
what?
I can't stay.
I've got work to do.
And for Dr. Bev to say, it would have been really fun to explore
this.
That would have been a much more positive in it, you know?
Do you know one other thing, too, that I noticed is that Odan has
a conversation with Picard, in which he says to Picard, do you
think Beverly is all that attached to Starfleet?
It's kind of like what Odan wants is what Ronan wants, which is
for her to stop doing her job and devote herself to him full
time.
You know, like it's kind of creepy and terrible, right, from the
get go.
You remember Kira's reaction to Bashir saying that it was taboo
for Dax and Lenara to be together.
Do you remember that?
Kira turns around and he goes, you know, it's forbidden for old
hosts to rekindle relationships and blah, blah, blah, and she goes
straight away.
How can it possibly be unnatural for 2 people that are in love to
be in love?
And so it's literally stating the opposite of this.
Yeah, you know, and all right, they do go out of their way to not
mention it's the same sexual relationship.
But it's almost like no same-sex relationships on the show.
But it's almost like that isn't a problem. you know?
It's not even a factor.
And that's a better message.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And look, when this series does homosexuality in the outcast, I
remember at the time being like hugely thrilled by the fact that
it came up.
But now I'm just kind of annoyed that it's an issue episode and
it's an episode of the evil lesbians who persecute people for
being heterosexual, you know, like it's kind of like, oh, come on
you know, like you did this.
Don't blame lesbians for homophobia.
You know what's doing it.
Ira Bear over on DS9 in that documentary.
They're like, yes, you know, you had a gay character, Garak, tick
and Arabeg goes, no, no, no, you take that tick away.
He goes, you rub that out.
We could have done better.
We should have run with that.
Like, we were weak to not do it and to listen to the studio
execs.
And, you know, they flirt with it and they have, you know, Jesus, I
love those scenes between Terry Farrell and, um, oh, what's
someone that's name, you know, and let he who is without seeing
Vanessa Williams.
Yeah, where they're doing the pottery together and they've got
their arms around each other in the swimming costumes and stuff.
And Wolf walks in appalled.
Like, what is going on?
So they do flirt with it.
But it's still it's not good enough.
No.
And I think the reaction, the sort of, oh, Star Trek is so woke
reaction to Kurtzman trick, which is getting it right, you know
displaying full diversity.
It's those people that watched this and thought this was good
enough and it wasn't good enough.
No, no.
And again, we've said before that this is Star Trek.
90 Star Trek is generally embarrassed about, for all of the kind
of talk, is a bit embarrassed about this sort of socialist utopia
thing, about federation morality.
And Kurtzman Trek, you know, despite what people feared in series
one of discovery. wholeheartedly embraces it, I think. and uses
Star Trek as a vehicle for telling stories about queer people for
the 1st time ever.
What's sad is, I say to you, it's not in flirting with it, and it
did, but by the time you get to Voyager, I can't think of a single
same-sex moment in Voyager, and I can't think of a single same-sex
moment in Enterprise.
So when Bragger and Berman are completely in charge of 2 shows
it's a, it's a gay wash.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, and I think too, they are conservative.
I think there's a lot to be said for the idea that voyagers
politics are inherently xenophobic and conservative and the same
with enterprise and we've talked about both of those things.
And, you know, like I still love both of those shows, even
Enterprise.
But I don't love them because they're into that utopian vision
that somehow has become associated with Star Trek.
No, you love them because they're silly Star Trek shows.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah.
All right, it's the end of the episode, and it is time for us to
work out what we're going to watch next.
It's my go on the randomiser.
Could you possibly find an episode with a gay character in it
please?
Uh, I doubt it because we are going to watch Star Trek
Enterprise.
We've got no opening. absolutely no chance at all.
Why Enterprise now?
It is slightly underrepresented in untitled Star Trek Project, and
this week we saw an episode of Strange New World that ended with
what was a little bit of a love letter to Star Trek Enterprise.
And one of the things that we've always said about Kurtzman Trek
is that it loves and embraces all of Trek and Enterprise is no
exception.
And so having the crew of the Enterprise, the original Enterprise
from Strange New Worlds, geeking out about the crew of the NXO one
having Ahura, about admiration for Hoshi.
She talked 30 languages, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
Like all of that was really lovely and warm and it was kind of a
fun way of showing that they were the same as Boimler and Mariner
who geek out about them.
You know, it's it was very cute.
So wonderful that episode.
And honestly, those two, Tawny Newsome and Dennis...
Sorry, tennis Quane.
Effortless.
Just, yeah, skipping into life action.
And his boy...
I mean, I thought she was good. he was excellent.
Yeah, yeah.
The way was, was just like boy blur, the way he ran down the
corridor away from number one was just like, boy, blah, blah.
I'm like, how are they possibly going to pull off these comic
characters in this show?
And it works.
And they did it without distorting the characters at all.
They were still those comic characters.
They were still the same. sequence done in animation.
Oh my god.
Oh, that thing that's...
The thing that sucks on the Cerritos thing?
I thought of you immediately.
Oh, it was just heaven.
It was wonderful.
So good. wonderful.
So we're not watching that unfortunately.
No, we're not watching that.
We're going to watch it on the randomiser.
Inferior iteration of stuff.
We are.
But we were reminded by Strangely Worlds that Star Trek Enterprise
was something that was worth our love as well.
So let's give it a go.
Sometimes.
Yeah.
All right.
Okay, so here goes pressing the button.
Okay, season one, episode 16, shuttlepod one.
Oh Christ.
Off you, you might have a lot of issues with that one, because
it's the one where Tripp and Reed are trapped on this shuttle pod
and they think they're going to die, and it's the most
heterosexual because they're losing oxygen.
So they start to get very masculine and they're talking about this
woman who works in the Briggs tits, and it's all very, all the
things you were going to hate about Enterprise.
Maybe choose another one.
It's that strip down series one thing that Enterprise does where
it's just like have very simple premises.
But that's the one that's one of the ones that Bragger talked
about in that interview with all the cars, you know, 15 years
later.
He thought he was doing character stuff.
This is where we were doing something different.
It was different, yeah.
It wasn't good.
Because it's overtly heterosexual and a bit creepy.
Yeah, okay.
All right. let's try something else Season two, episode 25
Bounty.
Episode 25.
Oh God, that's no.
What are you doing?
That's the one where DePaul goes for a pomfire.
She's stalking down all the men. in horror sequences.
Oh, you keep talking about that.
We should have to watch it.
And I can't even remember what.
I think there's something about Orions in there as well.
You know, the green guys.
Is it racist about Orions?
Does it think they're all pirates?
Are they all pirates?
I can't remember.
All I remember is these amazing, it's terrible because of what it
says about women and sexuality.
She's going around and there's horror music and flashlight in and
she's trying to have sex with every man.
There's all cowering in the shadows.
That sounds great.
I haven't mentioned it before a couple of times.
I think we have to do it I really want you to watch a really good
enterprise one.
Yeah, they're all good ones.
Okay, all right. try again.
We would have had fun with that, though.
Uh, fight or flight season one, episode three. too early.
We're in trouble there.
Okay, North Star.
Season three, episode nine.
He's a little boring as well.
Cowboy one.
It's one of the weaker ones from free.
Yeah.
They do a Western... in the middle of the Zoom.
Yeah, no, that seems like an odd thing to do.
Shuttle pod one again.
Shockwave.
I'm not doing a two-parter, so this is Shockwave season one
episode 26.
We're not doing shockwave part two, so let's move quickly.
I think Shaw wave's a bit muddled.
A lot of people jam a bit 4 styles and it's very confusing.
All right.
Here's what we might do.
Season three, episode 12, Chosen Realm.
Have no idea.
Oh, should we look it up quickly?
Okay.
Okay, so according to Wikipedia, it is Enterprise has taken over
by a group of religious zealots called Triannons, and Archer must
retake it before it's too late.
Does it have interesting things to say about religion?
Oh, I doubt it.
I can't remember at all.
I do remember a lot of Siri, sorry.
Come on, one more time.
Okay, one more time.
This is the one.
Whatever it is, this is the one.
No, it's unexpected, which we did in episode 69.
So fight or flight.
Why is it rolling the same thing over and over again?
Okay, season two, episode 15 ceasefire.
No idea.
All right.
Terra Prime, which we've done before.
The Randomiser is killing me today.
All right, let's try again.
So that's the longest one ever.
Season two, episode 10.
I think we've done worse than this.
Season two, episode 10, vanishing point.
Oh, is that the one with Hoshi and the transporter?
She's got a fair of the transporter and it's a very quiet...
Go on one more time.
Okay.
Come on, find a sign good.
Okay, season three, episode 13 proving ground.
No clue.
Hang on.
It's in the Zindia.
This is getting embarrassing.
That's the that's the point at which it ends.
The rule is once we're too embarrassed to roll again.
The whole thing ends. breathing ground.
Now that's more like it.
Three stars out of four.
Jeffrey Coombs, isn't it?
It's sort of big Zindi story arc.
The Enterprise, Enterprise has found the location of the testing
side of the Zindi weapon and get some rather unexpected help.
Let's do it Come on.
And we haven't really done a sort of dense series 3 middle of the
arc episode, have we?
Well, I don't think we've done a proper Zindi Arc episode at all
have we?
We're certain about done.
Yeah, we've never done an episode with Zindy characters or
dialogue or anything.
I think you and me, we are going for different directions when it
comes to series 3 events prize.
Yes, I go in the same direction as John Billingsley.
And I go in the same direction of the direction. and Rick Burman.
So which of us could possibly be right?
Alright.
Okay.
So, bring your answer to that question.
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find
links to our Twitter, Mastodon, Facebook and YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 25th of July, 2023 and released
on the 28th of July.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Enterprise, Moving Ground.
Got it there.
We're cute off.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's great.
Oh, God.
Oh, that was embarrassing, advertised for tomorrow.
But I mean, I rolled 2 of them like 3 times and I rolled 2 other
episodes that we've already done.
I am going to have to institute the secret randomiser that skipped
episodes that we've done already.
Oh, well, it does that now.
No, I haven't written it yet.
Well I'll have the right one.
Oh, okay, yeah, that's probably...
It's easy to get to that point, aren't we?
We are getting to that point where.
Yeah, done that, done that.
And actually, one of the things that I was going to do, and I
might do it after I go off the call.
I probably just need to write a couple of lines of code to get it
to do, because we, you know, the percentages for individual shows
but I haven't got an overall percent to how far we are through, and
I think that'd be a fun thing to have.
Don't you think?
Well, I mean, I'm assuming we're quite low.
We're about 10%.
Oh, really?
Well, this is episode 75.
Star Trek is around about 890 episodes at this point.
Oh, a little way to go, yeah, then.
A little way to go.
Because it's still coming.
And you saw the trailer.
I haven't actually seen that trailer.
Well, low decks one.
But Brandon did send me the photo.
He sent me a photo of Shacks and Ransom doing the thing in doing
the like in the leotards that Beverly and Deanna doing the price
in exactly the same leotards that they're wearing.
And the same colours and everything.
Yeah, same colour, like the whole thing.
But I haven't seen the trailer.
I was just looking at September the 27th or something, it's back.
Yeah, that'll watch every week.
I'm going to binge all of, um, Strangely Wales.
Yeah, as a year.
Well, I'll rewatch the Boiling One.
Why wouldn't I?
Oh, I was thinking of rewatching it tonight, actually, later
because I just think it's so great.
I thought it was so well done And the last time they sort of did
something that well. with that much care was trials and
tribulations.
Yeah, I I thought it was like trials and tribulations as well, but
I actually thought...
Like, trials and tribulations is astonishing and, you know, but I
thought this, like, this was really something else because they
were playing on hard mode with this.
Like, how do they do it?
Their characters from a cartoon show.
Do we have them turn up and behave normal and just pretend they're
exaggerated because it's a cartoon?
Well, that's not having the characters from the cartoon, you
know?
Like that's, that's punting.
How do these characters work with the other characters?
Brakes directed it, didn't he?
It gauge shit.
Yeah, yeah.
He got it. absolutely right.
And, you know, because the, that scene in the turbo lift with
Christine and boy, and where she realises what we always should
have realised that because this is a prequel and because we know
what Spock ends up being, this relationship can't last, they're in
a relationship.
They've been in it for an episode or something like that.
It's like at the end of, you know, like an earlier episode.
I think it's at the end of the comedy, the set, you know, the
comedy episode where like Spock turns into a human being and then
has to turn up.
Yeah, he has to turn up at his engagement party and impress his
future mother-in-law and he has fake ears on it.
It's just it's like they're ludicrous high concept, comedy
episode.
And it's at the end of that.
So that was episode like 6 or something.
So they have only just been in the relationship together.
And just seeing how heartbroken she is, like she properly plays it
properly and then he's upset because he's kind of fucked up, not
just by telling future things, but by saying this to her and
hurting her feelings and stuff.
I like her being the poster child.
I love that.
Then...
Yeah.
You know that, like, you know that she, like, the actor who plays
Una is married to the actor who plays.
Yeah, it's Jerry O'Connell.
So he gets to say that she's the hottest 1st officer in
Starfleet.
But like, it was all really well judged.
I just think the MVP was Jack White.
I just thought, oh, yeah, incredible.
That could have sunk the episode because he had so much to do.
And it was absolutely the animated boiler.
Yeah.
What about the bit too, where he says...
Where...
Like where the captain says that he's going to spend some time on
his own drinking whiskey, I'm thinking about his father who's died
and just wishing I could spend one more day with him, and then
bonelesses, but these people on the ship will wish that they could
spend one more day with you.
And that was great.
It did lean into that whole pike nose's future again as well.
But we but we knew that, of course, because the thing you know
about Pike, even if, do you know what I mean?
The thing that we always knew about Pike is that he has this
terrible future ahead of him.
That's, you know, we've known that since the 60s.
And of course, Boemer knows it, and this, the show has not shied
away from it, hasn't found a way of getting him out of it.
I think the biggest endorsement of the episode was.
I didn't want him to go back at the end.
Oh, and I really thought when you could hear their voices through
the portal.
I was like, I'll come through just for a 2nd come through.
Yeah, they're not going to do that.
I was like, that would have been amazing.
I was so glad they were in it.
That was what I predicted.
When I heard that they were going to do some animation, there
would be some animation in it.
I knew that that would be how they would get Tandy and Rutherford
in the episode.
They would just, you know, like have the thing open on the
Cerritos being animated.
And like having, and because the great thing too, you know, like
because the Enterprise, the Strangely World's opening credits are
every bit as animated as the lower decks opening credits.
Do you know what I mean?
They're just animated.
They both animation.
It's just the animation style.
It's different.
And the same with the planet. took me a 2nd on it.
It took me a 2nd.
I was watching it, watching those lights coming on.
No, the lights were too...
They were details enough.
No, it happened.
Maybe I'm just used to not paying attention.
And then I was like, yeah.
It was so good.
Just the best thing ever.
Wave for that musical episode.
But like, you know, that...
It's a shame, but I, you know, there are people saying, oh, it's
sold out already.
Things like this.
Oh, fuck off and go watch something else then, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
But I mean, the thing is that it can be funny.
But one of the things that Star Trek.
Yes, it's fine.
Like it's 5 songs in it.
Yeah, you know?
Yeah.
That where I'm done singing.
The doctor sang about 30 songs. across Voyager.
Yeah, yeah.
That's superb, like it, that superb episode of Picard in series 2
where Agnes wears the red dress, 2 of one.
I think it is, and she's sort of taken over by the Borg and she
does this incredible musical number.
They just wanted to be one sort of thing, didn't they?
Yeah.
They want it to be, they want it to be space.
The next generation, sort of straightforward space thing.
But I, I want, maybe, but I think, you know, I think they want it
to be balance of terror and the Corva might maneuver.
There's some of that in there, though.
Of course there is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, it's it does the things that Star Trek can do.
Nobody's looking at that.
For one episode and going, oh. they've sold out, you know.
No, no.
Better that's what people want.
And I thought, but that was good. you know, and I thought children
of the comet was good as well.
It's like what Star Trek should be, you know, and high concept and
beautiful and weird looking and saying things about religion and
doing character stuff.
Obviously, we have mixed reviews from Jama this year, though.
Obviously.
There's 2 he wasn't so keen on, hang on, let's see.
Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow only got 2 out of 4 stars.
Yeah, and to be fair, remember he gave 2.5 stars to Bem.
Yeah, that is true.
Tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow is a wonderful Laan episode.
She's superb in it.
He hasn't been thrilled by anything.
He's given 3 stars, 3 stars, 2 stars.
2.5 stars, 3 stars.
Has he 2.5?
Has he does?
Has he done those old scientists yet?
But you look at the you look at the comment thread because I went
there yesterday at the comment. is full of people just saying, yeah
I had a blast.
This was incredible.
But it was like a night in sick, babe.
Was it annoying, Sick Bay?
It's one where it's like, oh, this is a guilty pleasure.
I think this is really fun.
You know, like, and jam is saying how terrible it is, and everyone
on the 3 is saying, actually, I think this is kind of fun.
In that case, he was correct.
No, it's really good.
Remember, I'm doing that ritual at the end.
With his shirt off with those weird aliens on the plane.
We had to apologise by doing that.
And we have no clue what was going on.
No, that was so bizarre.
Just make it up, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
The fans will be pouring over for years, you know.
Well, I can think of is Uncle Arthur teaching Darren Stevens to
say Yagazuzi Zim.
Yeah, TJ.
Oh, goodness.
We have watched some shit, haven't we?
We watched some good stuff.
Yeah, it's a bit more sheep than I expected.
It's a pity about Star Trek the Next Generation, isn't it?
Even the ones that I, the beloved ones, PowerPlay.
I mean, I knew we were going to have some issues with this one
because I remember the ending.
Um, but it's sort of boring all the way through.
We haven't got to the stuff like the game and the rascals and
stuff like that, you know, well, we can literally just have a
blast.
Yeah, the one disaster.
You know, we haven't done any of those type of episodes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Maybe I'll keep rolling till I get a fun one, you know?
Who watches the watchers?
Watches the watches.
Yeah.
I like Dejah Q. As a brilliant one.
Even, you know, the goddess of empathy and all of that.
We have a good giggle at that.
Instead, we just keep rolling season 7 episodes.
Most toys.
Mm, no stores I like.
And then all the classics, you know, mind's eye, best of both
worlds.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there is good stuff.
Redemption.
This is Carmichael.
Yeah.
Types era.
Does that pick it?
Best of pickets.
Oh, God.
What is it?
What?
Jealous Auberold.
Fairest, skip hence.
Oh my god.
So bad.
That was truly superb, Mrs. Carmichael.
So you can relax.
Oh, what about Captain's Holiday?
Oh, Max Roddenchick.
And God, he was given a character.
See the bad guy.
Oh my god, have you seen that?
Oh no, you haven't seen it.
What?
Um, Rom and Lisa are in the trailer for Lower Decks.
Oh really?
Oh, my God, I have to watch it.
Oh, he's a great...
I'm like drawn now with massive jugs.
I got it just right.
It's just sort of going to the side.
That's brilliant.
Oh, really?
Please.
Wrong later.
That would be amazing.