Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we are now back in Star Trek Voyager, and we're in a period of
Star Trek Voyager that I think both of us generally like, which is
kind of the 1st 2 seasons, both of us generally like, nobody else
does.
No, that's true.
And certainly the people who take over.
I think most people think that Star Trek Voyager didn't start
until season four.
Okay.
When Jerry Ryan joined, but I think most people sort of think of
this sort of Kazon Cesca period as best forgotten.
Whereas I think this is the sort of the rare times when Voyager
actually glimpses at achieving its potential.
Yeah.
So this is season two, episode 14, and its alliances, and we've
already done the episode that sort of outs Cesca, as a Cardassian
and that introduces March Colour.
Uh, I don't think so.
I don't think colour comes along till season two.
She beams off the ship at the end of the episode, doesn't she?
Oh, no, is that the one where she goes?
I don't like bullies and I don't like you.
Oh, okay, maybe it wasn't.
Yeah.
Did you know right?
He was supposed to be written out in this episode.
Originally, this assassination attempt at the end.
It was very...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it was going to be like, of course, going to be the big sort
of dramatic twist at the end.
And he went to Jerry Taylor and said, look, now you've written
this.
I'm just dead on the floor.
He goes, Carmen, you had me twitching in agony or something like
that, you know, like I want a big scene to go out on.
I've given you, you know, a season and a half for me.
And she went, don't worry, we like you so much.
We've rewritten it.
You're staying in the show.
So he was doing something right that they were noticing.
And so this is kind of leading up to a sort of half season that is
going to prepare us for basics, which is the series 2 Cliffhanger
which is pretty good.
I think.
It's what you say, it's the, I think it's the only time Voyager
does what you said to me before, and that is, it's a threat to the
premise of the show, is that they're all booted off Voyager, and
how can you Voyager without Voyager?
It's a great cliffhanger.
Yeah, it is really good, I think.
And perhaps the resolution is not too bad either.
You know, and it's Voyager's 1st cliffhanger because they kind of
did whatever the hell it was.
They did at the end of series one last time, the 37s.
Hopefully convinced as well that Marfa Hackett's Cesca is the best
villain, that Voyager ever had, that way she sort of purrs like a
soap opera villain.
Hello, Chacone, you know, every time she comes.
I mean, there's nothing subtle about her at all.
The one where she pops up with the baby, you know, the pregnant
stomach.
I'm having your baby chickle day.
And they tried.
I think they did try with the ball queen in later seasons to have
like a big villain, but because she's sort of so cold.
It's nowhere near as fun.
No.
Yeah.
Yeah, see, this was kind of fun.
This was a version of Voyager that had more than 7 people on board
the ship and that seemed to be happening in a sort of world where
there were other people that they knew and stuff.
And I guess most people have a problem in that that sort of
stretches plausibility.
And I think there is one moment here where I kind of tend to agree
with them.
But it's kind of fun to have a series of episodes leading up to a
sort of big giant cliffhanger.
The episodes in themselves are pretty great.
This is a this is good.
I think this is flawed.
I think there are some pretty serious problems with it.
But it's so enjoyable, I think.
I think the pilot, caretaker.
I promised 2 things.
It promised 2 crews and some tension between those 2 crews.
And we got them for a couple of episodes.
And then somewhere in the middle of season one, they just forgot
about it and everyone was getting on happy as Larry until this
point.
And we remember it again for a single episode and then that's it.
We're all Federation all the way because Jayway makes a fabulous
speech at the end to remind us why the rules of the Federation are
the best allies we can have, you know?
Or something.
But the other thing it promised was this sort of overarching story
with the Kazon, which we only touched upon.
We had state of flux.
There's the one with Aaron Eisenberg Carr.
There's manoeuvres and then there's this initiations.
Yeah.
Initiations?
sort of a season and a half .
That's only 4 episodes, you know.
And I said to you off, Mike, if this was DS9, the events that take
place in alliances would be spread across like half a season.
And we would see this playing out in a much more interesting way.
What you've got is sort of a condensed development of that plot
within this episode and then we can forget all about it for a
couple of episodes and, you know, do some more TNG knockoffs.
We've got threshold next week.
That's right.
We missed it just by one.
What's interesting, what is that Jerry Taylor did the teleplay for
this?
Yeah.
And I think that it's a story by Michael Piller, but teleplate by
Jerry Taylor, and this is exactly what she didn't want for the
show.
She didn't want arcs, she didn't want secondary characters.
She wanted, you know, standalone episodes, just like TNG, sort of
fun romps, which is what we got when she took over in series
three.
I think it's so interesting that one of the better examples of an
ongoing narrative episode is written by Jerry Taylor, and it's
good.
Yeah.
I think it's such a shame that I love the fact that there was a
strong female voice. in the Voyager writing stuff.
Yeah.
I don't think it's a shame.
I don't really agree with a lot of the decisions that she made.
Yeah.
Well, what do you think?
Should we go in?
Let's see what she's got to offer.
Yeah.
All right.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
So this is a bit of a cheat, isn't it?
This is what you were talking about, I think.
So we start with the ship being attacked by the Kazon and
apparently it's been going on for a long time.
Uh, and obviously it started after um, prototype or whatever
happened last week and it's been going on for a bit.
So this is a new kind of premise in a way.
This is them being hammered by the Kazon, kind of more or less all
the time.
Janeway's got her crisis. is in such disarray, things I've got
that they are in trouble.
But do you remember I told you, the 1st half on series 2, they, the
writers all looked at each other and said, this isn't working.
Like, we need to up our game here.
And from manoeuvres onwards, they did try and inject more action
and yeah, a bit more urgency into the story.
And this is a good example of that, opening an episode with an
exciting wig and all around the ship. everyone's sort of in crisis
mode.
Yeah, it's not bad.
I mean, you know, like it's it's reasonably good, I think.
A lot of people shouting, lots of low light, you know, the camera
juttering, all of that.
Oh, some...
Plenty of dry ice spitting out of every single console. that's
right Oh no.
Don't give Tom Parrot's prices lines.
I'll wait.
Chivalk, we've sustained massive damage.
That's his line for the episode.
There we go.
That's Tuvok.
In fact, TikTok does get a scene in this, which is super weird.
Oh my god. brilliant Star Trek metaphor scenes, isn't it?
Oh my god.
She should have just Vulcan Orchid.
Wait till we get there.
It's so bad It's so bad.
Do you notice they're doing a bit of handheld camera work as
well?
Yeah, yeah.
To give it a bit of drama.
Oh, dear.
So one of the marquee crew members has been is now dead.
Yeah, would you say that we've been across to Belana?
We just went, shoot straight across the thing.
Whipan, there's B'lana.
She actually does a reasonable reaction.
Um, I think to that.
So, so here's the argument now.
Okay, so this guy's dead.
I actually quite like, you know, her reaction and all of that sort
of thing.
And, and we get the idea that there's more than one person on the
ship, which we did with state of flux as well, where, you know
they had friends that Cesca and Chakotay had been friends with
other members of the crew and stuff.
Although, you know, Kruber and Bandera, who saved Chakotay's life
has never been seen before or, you know, is his absolute best
friend of the marquis we've never seen before.
Yeah.
I can't even notice her hair is immaculate now.
She, she, she let him in.
She's like, hang on.
I'm just doing my hair.
I think early Chakotay, they made some effort to make him quite
interesting.
Like I'm not talking about the Native American stuff.
I'm talking about him sort of straddling between the Federation
and the Marquis.
There's one great scene in learning curve where you've got a
couple of marquee crew members bitching about the way Janeway's
running the ship and he goes, well, you want to do it the way the
marquee do it.
He's like, yeah, and he just punches him straight in the face.
He says, that's how we used to do it.
But once they abandon this whole sort of tension thing between the
2 crews, Chicoto is very boring after that.
Yes, yeah.
Yeah, he checks out, I think.
I think, don't you think?
Robert checks out and isn't being given any interesting material
and we've all realised long ago that casting him as a Native
American is a problem and we probably shouldn't bring it up all
that often because it's a bit embarrassing.
Can we talk about Jane Way, please?
Because I think this is a problematic episode for one of our
favourite captains who, as I said to you, comes across as both
very stubborn and extremely naive.
Yeah, which is a hell of a fate to pull off.
I think she also comes across as incredibly racist and we'll get
there.
I want to hear your reading on this.
Is it because she takes, you know, she makes friends with the
supremacists.
Yeah, essentially.
So she's terrible.
So what's so what kind of happens here is apparently Starfleet
doesn't allow them to have alliances with warp capable
civilisations or something.
They're not allowed to make alliances and that's Starfleet rules.
And I don't know why that Starfleet rules and where that comes
from.
Well, that's the whole point of the Federation, isn't it?
is to...
Yeah, I mean...
Exactly.
I mean, you think, because this happens so often now, we're sort
of into our full Star Trek series.
I mean, and there's a many an episode where a ship's been flung
off into space or a space station's been sent off to another
quadrant or whatever, that there would be a caveat in the prime
predirective by this point that says, look, if you're in a region
of space and you're on your own, you can make some friends.
But it just seems, it seems ridiculous.
It's not, so it's a version of Starfleet that we need to have for
this episode to be about something.
And then we learn a valuable lesson that we can't make alliances
with people.
And like that's crap.
What is that?
One is exactly the sort of thing that she was saying to Seska in
state of flux, isn't it?
is that no, we're not allowing ourselves with these people.
But it is a weird stubbornness because calm series 7 in the void
that we talked about.
Yeah.
She's like, well, look, we're trapped in this region of space, you
know, away from the Delta Quadron. start making alliances with
people.
Yeah, yeah.
I thought, are you taking the piss?
Because the void is just a microcosm of Voyager.
It's like Voyager within Voyager.
In a single episode. showing what they should have done with the
entire episode. right.
And so it makes no sense.
The whole thing that she's saying, we can't make alliances with
people because what?
There's a rule about it, which has never been mentioned before.
Oh, can I just say that this fucking story, the crewman's funeral
is such tedious Star Trek crap.
I thought you love these backstories for one.
Yeah, yeah, good story, Robert.
He was my friend from that moment time.
And he kept on fighting the good fight, Nathan.
It's so cheesy.
Look at the way Jane Wayne's looking at him with such a, oh, what
a fascinating story.
A bit of a reaction from Roxanne, who is, after all, very good.
Yeah, yeah.
I've got a quote here, you know, from Simon Billick, who plays
Crewman Hogan, the man with the incredible eyes.
Yeah, doesn't he have incredible eyes?
Is he a bait, is it?
don't know.
It's that same sort of black eyes, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, debates sense.
He says everybody there made me feel extremely comfortable
including the director.
My 1st day ended up going so well that I almost didn't get any
sleep that night because I wanted so badly to go back the next day
and do my scene, my 1st scene with Kate Mulgrew.
She gave me a bit of advice while I was doing my scene with her.
I was a little worried because it was so confrontational, but Kate
sort of hinted that what I was doing was okay.
She put her hand on my shoulder and said, I want you to go for it
again.
But further.
And that's why we get the scene that we get here, the where he's
really angry.
I'm wondering if Margaret was a bit of a presence, you know, people
didn't want to, you know, go out.
We were scared of her.
So this introduces both Hogan and Jonas, and I don't know that
we've had Jonas's name yet.
Yeah.
And the whole sort of Jonas subplot where he's contacting Seska in
the case.
Later, to be unearthed by an Elix is fabulous.
Breakfast with Neelix TV show.
Jesus Christ.
What were I thinking?
But this, like, I think that there has to be a better reason for
not giving the case on what they want.
And so she has good grounds not to trust the Kazon.
You know, um, they're terrible for all sorts of reasons, you know
they were going to kill the, the, a calm par, but that was the
whole sort of purpose of the 1st episode.
She's black and blue.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They've you know, they've stolen their technology before and tried
to use it.
So all of this.
So why isn't it just they?
It's not Starfleet says we can't have alliances.
It's, it's her judgement, her personal judgement that the case
will not be trusted.
And that's reasonable given what's happened, I think.
Can I ask you, look, why, why can't they have a democracy on the
ship?
I mean, nobody ever planned for this ship of people to be cut off
from.
So why can't there be a vote on whether to do things or not?
Because I don't think the rules of the Federation work in the
Delta Quadrant.
But it depends on what the rules of the Federation are.
If the rules are, you aren't allowed to make alliances with anyone
at all and you just have to kind of make your own way through, then
that's nonsense.
Like, that's just ridiculous.
You specify in one episode, you're not allowed to shift the
balance of power or something like that.
That's the line.
But by being there, they are shifting the balance of power in the
Delta Quadrant.
Like, that's going to happen no matter what.
But and the sharing technology thing is a sort of reasonable thing
that's a thing that you can imagine them doing, oh, and now this
right?
So we have a backstory where Team Ross, where Tuvok is her old
friend, and he's the most singular member.
One of the best relationships in the show, I think, when they
remember it.
Yeah, yeah.
So he, they're trying to do it.
But like, why are they explaining to one another how often Janeway
has come into 2 Fox quarters?
What sort of conversation is that?
And what like what?
It's the worst kind of science fiction dialogue when 2 people
explain something that they already know.
It's so themselves.
I mean, obviously, it's got our sakes, isn't it?
But this is our particular problem in 90s straight. that DS9 thing
of catching us up with the arc plots, you know.
They are our greatest allies, you know?
But it's also just a lack of faith in the audience. they can't
think of lines that will sell that relationship without just
saying out loud in words, what the relationship is, and they don't
think we would understand any line like that if they were able to
come up with it, I think.
Well, as well.
Is that of just tackling the problem that they have in front of
them?
He makes this shitty fucking metaphor about a plan where we're
supposed to think, oh, that's such a clever way of explaining why
you should make alliances.
And they do this.
And season 2, it is particularly bad.
I don't think there's an episode goes by where someone hasn't got
a problem and someone doesn't come in and go, you know, I once had
a spaceship, you know, we funded on this other bit of technology
and it really works out well.
Fucking Mullerbok in the tree, isn't it?
Like, it's that.
But that was funny.
Yeah, because they make fun of it, but it is a terrible, like, it
was terrible.
You just need mother box to come along.
You're like, why are you telling a story about your orchids?
Yeah, yeah, tell us that be awkward.
Instead it's so serious.
She goes, what a great point you made there, you know.
And then there's another thing here too.
That is kind of interesting, I think.
And I did read a little bit about this because I was trying to
work out what they were thinking when the Kazon come along because
I think that there's something that's very clearly hinted at in
this episode.
But before the tribe, on the scene, what were they trying to do?
And I think they wanted them to be like New York gangs.
You know, yeah.
Well, they were trying...
I think they just came across a subpar Klingons, didn't they?
ultimately.
And especially because of their look.
Yeah, the look.
I don't know why what they were thinking.
I mean, there's a fairly limited range of things of what, you know
they can achieve with the makeup and whatever, but they just look
like clons, like just far.
You want to go for that sort of gang, gang thing.
It's got to be a bit vicious, doesn't it?
And a bit nasty. cool.
So originally the plan was to cast young people as the Kazon
because if you think about it, in some, you know, that that when
people are younger, that's when they're, you know, doing violence
and being difficult and all of that sort of thing.
Like and having young people and making them somewhat vulnerable
and stuff like that, that that might have been they can break out
of their usual sort of casting, can they?
So they bring in the fellow who plays marsh colour.
And don't worry, it's great.
But he's a bit camp, isn't he?
And a bit theatrical.
And that's why we love him.
Yeah, exactly.
He's not a gang lead, is he?
No.
And then when they do bring in a kid, it's Aaron Eisenberg.
And again, he's good.
Yeah, but that's also an episode about being a kid, you know, like
if they had all been younger.
If they'd been like sort of child soldiers or something like
that.
Yeah.
But there's still something racialized about the conception.
So Romulans and Klingons are, that's a Cold War thing, isn't it?
Like in the 60s.
We had the Klingons in Star Trek, the Next Generation.
We had the Romulans, and that was a Cold War, kind of type of
politics.
And then the Cardassians and the Majorans come along and it's a
little bit messier and a little bit more regional, and a little
bit more like, you know, how political issues play out on the
world stage now that it's not just 2 giant power blocks.
It's, you know, conflicts that are much more local.
Now, here, um, if you're going to do gangs, like criminal gangs
there's something uncomfortably racialized about that.
I think, isn't it?
Or is it just me?
Do I not know enough about?
Star Trek is above that, though.
No, I think inadvertently they would do that.
But I think that they end up, what they end up doing here, by
introducing the trade, is making it South Africa.
Yeah, and it's kind of explicit as well, isn't it?
Oh, why?
Well, and that's it.
And so even the white actors who play.
So we're going to have a black guy playing a Kazon who is
communicating with Jonas.
Oh, look who's here.
But even the white guy.
Yeah, yeah.
So even Anthony DeLongus here who plays colour. is wide, but he's
you know, made uh, sort of copper coloured.
Do you know what this reminds me of, right?
Bodger never really does it?
Because I don't have interest in villains.
And except here.
You remember those scenes between like Wayun and Damar, where one
of them's talking on the screen and the other one's looking a bit
shifty or sort of giving in the eye.
I love this stuff.
I love it.
And we have a scene with the 2 of them.
Ordinarily, you would have to have one of the Voyager regulars, but
it's enough to have colour or Cesca.
That Michael Pillar thing of giving us scenes from the villas
points of view. which makes it so much more interesting.
So here's the dumb thing.
So we 1st we 1st met colour a year ago.
They've been travelling back to the alpha, the alpha quadrant for
a year.
Yeah, it's baffling, isn't it?
Well, how have they not, we can meet in 20 hours?
Have they been going around in circles?
No, no.
You have got to forget about that because the 2nd you put that
thought in your head.
Well, they've been travelling in that direction.
Have they not left Kazon space yet?
Like how slow are they going?
Well, you see, I just thought, okay, so Kazon space is very big
you know, like whatever it stretches light use and light use, but
it's not just Kazon space, it's these individuals.
We keep meeting them around the season.
You want Harry Kim to just have throw away a line, okay?
We're not getting very far, are we?
That's right.
So this Tersa, this guy is Tersa, and he is, oh, look, thank God
Scotty's not here because he gets stabby in situations like this.
I fucking love the beginning of this scene, right?
Where they're trying to make it a bit exotic, and I bet, like, they
so rarely do this on Voyager, where we go somewhere that just sort
of feels like a bar with a sexy woman and a bizarre hat, which
plays a musical instrument in the ceiling.
So I think that if this was Discovery, there would be a boy there
as well, and it would be much better for it.
It is kind of a bit...
It never feels lived in.
And so I like it when we go to a location that actually feels like
somewhere that's lived in.
Also, this is a puzzle where he has to turn a dodeckahedron into
an icosahedron or vice versa, and clearly no one who, uh, either
no one who wrote the script or no one who made that thing, a thing
knew what either of those 2 things.
I mean, I know why, though, Dekhedron is only because I've watched
Doctor Who Meglos, but yeah, yeah, yeah.
So icosahedron's got 20 sides and they're all triangles, but it's
another solid.
I don't know what they're doing This is my favourite side of
Neelix as well.
I do like it when it's quite sweet on the ship.
But when he's got a bit of outsider knowledge, you know, and they
lean on that in the 1st 3 years, they get to a fair trade where
he's finally, they've gone to the point, that's as far as he's
gone.
So he's got no knowledge from that point on and there's a whole
episode about how he suddenly feel.
And he makes a lot of dodgy moves to find out maps for what's
going on ahead, which is really interesting as well.
But it's leading into that, though.
I think the original conception of Neelix wasn't just some comedy
buffoon morale officer. was supposed to be this sort of dodgy
dealer, wasn't it?
God, that dance is so bored.
I think maybe she thought the camera weren't on her anymore.
Oh, here we go.
Marshcolor again.
Wonderful.
I mean, what is that on his head?
Oh, it's awful.
It's sort of a bit gross, actually.
Like it's all sort of...
Is it supposed to be a week or a load of rocks?
So, yeah, I don't know.
It looks like sort of the hair's matted or something or their
bones growing it or something.
I don't know.
Look, we've run out of rocks to put in the consoles.
Can we just borrow something from your head?
Oh, Jesus Christ.
Can we just talk about the way Kurt dies because, you know, in the
opening scene, he dies because his console blows up in his face?
It's like no one's heard of insulation.
Like, it's the most dangerous thing on the ship.
It's most of charges.
That's right.
It's so lame.
It's like a cheap way of injuring people.
Do you know what?
right?
Can I tell you?
There's somebody on memory alpha that is going through all of
Voyager and counting the crew compliment and then taking it down a
notch, just like Battlestar Galactica every time somebody dies.
So he dies.
But by the time we get to endgame, I think there's only about 3
people left because they've murdered so many people.
Well, I think we said at the time in endgame, there was this sort
of terrible thing how 24 people died in the original timeline
before we got home in 20 years or whatever.
And it's just like, but more than that, have died in the 7 years
of Voyager.
Like, it sounds like your track rate actually got rather better.
Oh, your comment on that.
I was like, get over it, Jane.
People die.
You haven't got to go back in time.
Did you hear what Jacobo sent there?
I found the idea of an alliance with you, distasteful colour.
Get out of my sight.
I also think it's me a little bit that we have the 1st female, we
have the 1st female captain, and so the villains have to be
sexist.
Do you know what I mean?
And that's when, and in fact, all of this, like the relationship
between Cesca and colour is completely different behind closed
doors, where she's very, very much in charge and utterly
contemptuous of him, and he's rude and dismissive, isn't he?
It's wonderful.
I love how she partners to his ego whilst manipulating him to do
exactly what she was. because he's a big, dumb, like, moron.
Marva hatchet. doesn't she?
Oh, here we are.
Let's have a moment for stock cave set number 62.
So number one.
Yeah, there it is.
And we've introduced. we're introducing Mabis.
Now, he will...
He will be back in, I think it might be, um, Travis's only
Enterprise episode, Fortunate Son.
He comes back as Captain Keen, unfortunate son.
Yeah, and he missed that by one episode, you know, recently.
Yeah, yeah.
And he's Al Car in Man of the People.
No.
Oh my God.
I see it.
He is, isn't he?
No, our car.
Don't leave me.
Do you remember the bit?
Oh, aren't we talking about that episode?
Troy goes into the transporter room with a knife.
A knife.
I won't let you leave me, Alcar.
Then she attacked the car.
Oh, alcohol.
Oh, you just brought yourself another notch a lot. isn't that
awesome?
So great.
He must have had so much fun with Marina.
He's like, no sign me up.
I want to do stuff again.
I want to do this So, so what's happening here, right?
So when we see the Kazon, they wear, you know, beads and stuff and
they're tribes and and they're dark skinned and all of that.
And then we get these white people here and they, you know, say we
have a terrible colonial history and we were very cruel and all of
that sort of thing.
Yeah, so they do make, yeah, I'm glad they make that reference. you
know, so it doesn't come completely out of left field at the end.
They do say the trade were the greatest villains of the quadrant
or something. at one point.
Yeah, no, no, in fact, I think that that's what colour says.
Colour says, so you're not aligning with us.
You are allying with the greatest villains in the quadrant.
And that's...
It's the trade with the English now then.
Well, I think it's I mean, this is clearly South Africa, isn't
it?
Like they keep, uh, you know, there's homelands, that the, um, that
they live in there out of sight of the trade, so they don't have
to see the level of poverty and and misery that they live in, so
that they're exploited and oppressed by the trade.
They just find it so distasteful that, you know, because they seem
a little bit cultured, that Jane wears immediately like, yeah, we
can have alliance with these people.
Not those wretched gangs.
No, the white people.
We're going the white people.
I didn't want to say it.
No, but that's clearly what's happening, isn't it?
And no one notices it.
So it's it's icky because her actual reason for not wanting
alliances doesn't wash because there's no Starfleet rule about
that.
That makes no sense at all.
They're making alliances all the time. in the Alpha Quadrant. what
are we talking about?
That's one of the things that we do.
It's a federation.
Do you know what I mean?
Like a federation is a group of people who have joined together in
the alliance.
Federation in the Delta Quadrant, you know?
A fleet of ships could have come through in and game.
I brought all these fabulous races to join the federation, you
know?
So I think that there's a problem.
We've said it before, that 90s trek and the further on it goes, the
less happier it is about Star Trek, you know, the federation
ideals and that sort of, you know, socialist utopia thing.
We really challenge it in latter DS 9, don't we?
And I think the whole thing of the Dominion is sort of a dark
version of that, isn't it?
Yeah.
But I also think too, that what Deep Space 9 is doing is saying
all right, let's face it, the Federation is basically America.
Now, let's puncture its pretensions to be a society based on
equality and stuff like that.
Even more critical than that. when you get through episodes like
Valiant and things like that.
That is making fun of where they show how they are brainwashed
into doing extreme acts that's going to get them all killed.
Yes, but that's kind of an interesting explanation, exploration.
This just feels like digging her heels in to create some drama.
It's what Romor said about Star Trek Voyage when it came on.
I don't understand why these characters are behaving this way.
And they're like, well, we need a bit of attention for that
episode, you know.
Look at this guy.
Like, he's never watched a film before.
So he doesn't realise that that's a hand grenade.
So he kicks it experimentally.
It explodes and he falls over completely, otherwise visibly
unharmed, though.
I just don't like the way the case on odds.
Oh, portrayed as being so stupid and the trade is being so small.
Yeah, yeah.
It's a, it's a bit uncomfortable.
But do you know what?
You know what?
We've made quite a few criticisms about all of this.
I do think it's great that these things are being thrown in the
air and talked about.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I just think there's a problem with what the episode's about.
You know, the opening speech that she has about not making
alliances and that smug closing speech, which is just so on the
nose and, you know, kind of objectionable.
And it's her.
I was right all along, by the way, even though I'm the one who
decided to have an alliance with the racist white people.
You just want her to leave the room before the closing credits and
they all just look at each other going, what?
Are you serious right now?
Oh, so they're trying to do. we watched Scorpion and we had all of
those ships on the screen and Harry Kit jumped from 3 to 15 or
something like that. we could barely perceive it.
They're trying it there with a Kazon.
I'm not sure the ships are as intimidating.
I have to say that I quite like the ships, though, and there is
something about this era of Star Trek.
You know, we talked the other day about how stunningly beautiful
the Romulan birds of prey are.
And the Dominion ships we liked as well, didn't we?
Yeah, yeah. bugs.
And I think, you know, the Kazon ones work for the Kazon, I think
you know, they're sandy coloured, like the desert where we 1st see
the Kazon in, you know, they've got a beak, they look predatory
like a vulture or something like that.
I think they're okay.
They look a bit shit straight on.
Do you see what he said there?
I wasn't even aware of the caison growing up.
They lived in restricted areas.
Yeah, yeah.
You see, it's like homelands, isn't it?
I didn't know they lived in poverty and film.
Yeah.
The police, even the thing, even the thing that persecuted by the
trade police, even acknowledging that the police are racist, you
know, so they wouldn't get loose and kill us.
So he's having lots of sort of colonialist guilt or pretending to
because, of course, he is going to take the opportunity because
it's his idea, isn't it?
Janeway shouldn't have heard some of this, you know, and their
history and just said, no, oh, we're not going to do this, you
know, with you.
Well, except that she has that in her history as well.
You're our people.
You're all kind of people. that's right joined my new Federation.
We'll be the supremest song.
We'll go around and civilise all the planets just like Picard did
in Syria's model TNG.
Oh dear.
Oh, so the idea is now is they've all been scattered because the
Kazon are a force to be reckoned with.
Yeah, because the case kind of risen up, overthrown them and now
persecuting them.
I do really like them giving the case on a sympathetic backstory
though. after sort of gina training as the villains.
I think that's a good move Yeah, it makes them more...
I think they even must have said in that writer's room.
The case on was so boring.
We haven't done nothing with them.
Well, yeah, and pillars there going, you know what?
We're gonna make them the victims.
That'll be interesting.
Yeah, I think that's, I think that is really interesting and it
does say something, you know, like I think it's, it's a thing
that's worth doing as well.
You know, these people are, you know, violent and aggressive and
stuff.
Why is that?
Well, they've learned that being violent and aggressive is how you
survive because of the oppression that they've undergone and
they're, you know, within their rights to harass and.
What's the solution here then, Nathan?
She had just gone off and just let them get on with her own little
squabbles.
Yeah, well, I mean, I don't think she needs to solve anything in
the quadrant for the show to work.
You know, she does just need to get home.
So here we go.
Gosh, Jonas is wearing a lot of makeup, isn't he?
Yeah. you seeing that?
seen a couple of scenes back with Hogan.
He was doing some serious eye acting with Bilama.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a very intense look.
No, he is good.
The thing is, is I'm going to say this.
These are secondary characters on Voyager, and they are
functional.
They're okay, you know, but like, I think they are worse, you know
than, than the, the least successful secondary characters on DS9.
Yeah, but it's such a relief having secondary characters at all, I
think.
You know, we said...
Take anything, any scraps you'll give us.
Well, we said that when we were watching Genesis.
You know, it was so nice to see Barclay and Alyssa, uh, to, you
know, as if they'd been there all along.
I loved it when they brought Brad Dorrifin as a serial killer.
And he had a couple of... consulting serial killer.
Yeah, that was a bit interesting.
That was pillar again.
He wrote that one.
Yeah.
Consistent, basic.
Yeah, he's the one, him and the doctor, they helped retake the
shit.
They take the ship back, don't they?
Yeah, yeah.
And I thought, God, he's going to be a hero now, you know, but you
will need to watch out.
He might pull out a knife at any moment and she kills him off.
She goes, no, we want him gone.
Mind you, they weren't going to keep Brad Doroth forever.
I mean, he gets what?
No, no, that's right.
Yeah, exactly.
Oh, here we go.
Now, look.
This might be a luxury.
I simply don't have.
We're going to have to make an alliance with these wide
supremacists.
White people.
Let's go.
That's right.
Well, you changed the tune, Janeway?
Ah, the tribe, they enjoy a good meal.
There's a nice things about the brandy. and so we're going to have
an alliance with them.
Interesting smelly gangs.
That's right I don't think our problem with the case on is that
they're, you know, a bunch of bully boys.
I don't think she likes colour.
No, yeah, no, he's horrible.
Oh, look, here we go. little boy, you know.
She strokes his hair.
They're good people after all, yeah.
They have children.
You couldn't be evil and have children.
That awful Kazon boy we dealt with, it was wielding knives all the
time.
That's right There was, to be fair, a black woman in the
background, who was trade, but I did think that they were very
white on the whole, the extras and stuff.
I mean, we only have one speaking trade, don't we?
This guy?
I think as a whole, the Kazon are all black and the tray barrel
white.
Well, no, but like we said, the Anthony DeLongus is wide, but they
paint him orange and the same with Aaron Eisenberg, you know, the
sort of tribal look, isn't it?
Yeah, it is.
It's a tribal look and they belong to tribes that have names, the
Nistrom and the Ogla and all of that.
Yeah.
I do wonder, though, I would have liked to have seen a little bit
of this, maybe not with the trade, but like an alliance where
there's a few ships going along with Voyager and then taking some
stories taken, and I know they would never do it.
And it's a shame, you know?
But they can do it because then, you know, when they boot them all
off DS9, we have 6 episodes where they're away in other locations
you know?
Yeah, but this is, you know, launching UPN, isn't it?
Like this is their big flagship show.
It's on a different network from...
We've got our own Star Trek, the next generation.
Come and watch us. yeah Yeah, well I think that's it. think that's
absolutely it.
And look at her just...
Look at his face.
He's pissed, isn't he?
We could have got that colour if you'd have behaved yourself.
That's it.
She's so great.
I'm mixing her on boys, you know, you know.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But she's really, really great.
When they bring her back, they bring her back for 2 episodes, don't
they?
There's worst case scenario in series 3 and then they're shattered
in series 7 and every time she comes back, you're like, oh, you
should have done the whole run, love. you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Imagine Cesca and seven.
I mean it would have been amazing.
When the Federation Carl, could you risk being the only march who
doesn't attend?
She's basically like our Weyune for this show, isn't she?
A sort of devious politician.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think it's just a great shame.
It's a brilliant choice to have those 2 do our 1st big 2 part.
Cliffhanger episode.
They absolutely earn it and it's a really great episode because
you know, they're already stranded and now they're even more
stranded.
Oh, shit, this is so great.
Look at the look on his face.
And she's pandering to his ego saying, you know, you're going to
take over the entire quadrant and he's almost getting a raging
boner. hampering to his ego.
Oh, it's glorious.
I can't believe people don't like this stuff.
This is one of the best...
It's really fun.
That's that's the stuff.
And it's great.
I think it is a savvy move.
I have, you know, your 1st shit show with a female captain and a
great female villain.
Female villain.
You know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I agree.
Yeah.
Attackrit.
Who are the tackrit?
Oh, so this is a thing that happened during that last scene.
Neelix was back on the planet Sobras or whatever for some reason
and he discovered that there's now a plot to kill everyone at the
conference and they decide.
And this is so, like, I actually kind of emotional racist decision
they make, it's got to be the case on, they think, don't they?
going to be one of the last.
Well, they just assume.
Well, I mean, just, you know, there's a bunch of there's one trade
and 9 K's on it.
Never occurs to them that it'll be the trade because yes, you're
right, they're white people.
But there's also like just less of them, I think.
But I love the moment at the conference where, um, where Mabis
goes, uh, actually, should we just step out for a quick thing, we
need to talk about something.
Come on, let's go, quick.
Oh, come on. isn't it?
Yeah.
Captain, I need to talk to you now.
But we get a shot of Tuvok realising what's going on before he
gets too kind of blatant about it, which I thought was... done
would have said, you know what?
If they're going to try and do an assassination attempt here.
Let's have it on Voyager.
Let's invite everybody here instead.
I love this guy.
This guy just had a whole speech about deciding to make the table
triangular.
May I say the person on backcloth juicy is doing a fine job of
those mountains out the window.
I actually think that looks really good, does it?
Yeah.
When the the bolt comes through the window later.
There's a pane of glass that shatters.
Yeah, yeah.
Really?
I like the special effect outside.
But I think this is a tiny, tiny room.
And I mentioned now, I mentioned it off my, but I want to mention
it.
I might now.
Yeah, for some reason on Netflix and on Prime Video.
They've taken it off now.
They dubbed on, every time one of these margins turns up in this
tiny room, this enormous applause, like there's a stadium full of
people there, and, you know, like a da, da, da, da, da, fanfare
every time someone walks in. large menace.
These guys are so...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Surat, there's Surat.
They were like, right, we need a list of space names.
Come on.
Yep, Lauren here.
Of the Oglamar.
That's Valek.
Wow, he's coming in his pyjamas.
Oh, the mystery.
Yeah, yeah.
And colour gets a friend.
He's a speaking part.
It's something that you have done, you know, perversely to me for
watching these 90s episodes now.
It's all I was thinking was if somebody who wasn't a Star Trek fan
put this on and saw all these absurd looking people skid around
the table talking to.
How is this?
There is so much latex in this scene.
There he is.
I have so many.
I mean, who was on week duty here?
So I think this is, I think this is Charles's own hair, as Mabis
he's gone gray in the last sort of 3 or 4 years.
Did you see how Carlos sat down there looking at everybody like he
was already like the queen of England, you know?
I love him. he's great.
No, I think I think that he thinks he's the star of the show.
He's like the Ducat of this show, isn't he?
I guess he is.
It's not quite as good.
Bargain basement, you can't.
Because I feel like it was a pound store.
Genuinely dangerous.
Pound shop through car.
It's nice to have somebody who's a little sly boots, you know, with
a massive ego.
Oh yeah, here we go.
No, he's off to get his drink.
No, I'm just getting a drink.
I'm pouring some green liquid.
I feel as if there could have been some serious tension in this
scene, but it's just all so obvious.
Yeah.
I love as well.
It's just where he goes, be miles on the tray bout now and just
leaves all the case on...
Leaves them all there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's crazy, isn't it?
Why is that?
Well, I would have left the train guy there.
Why don't you just...
I mean, you're going on about not shifting the balance of power.
You've left them all there to be killed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, she told them to get down.
I mean, you know, they were sad.
I don't think we laugh as much ever, you know, when we watch 90s
trek.
No.
It's also absurd.
There's not enough soap in this stuff, have you noticed?
No.
You know, it's all a lot of plot.
Well, I think that the soap comes from the scenes with seska and
colour.
Yeah.
Later on when she's got the baby on the bridge.
That's brilliant Here's your son, Chakotay.
And so she's trying to make it broader too, isn't she?
But I really, really like, like, he's right.
Colour is right here.
We can't trust this proposal, a woman and a tribe.
I mean, he's being sexist because, uh, but he's right.
This sign here, you're allying yourself to the greatest villains.
This squadrant has ever known.
That's good.
That's a good line.
But are we supposed to be on his side here?
But no, I think we are.
I think absolutely he's right.
So the point of this episode is to make Janeway a massive
hypocrite.
Yeah, yeah.
And the moment that he finishes that line, Maber says, let's go
get up and leave the room for some reason.
No, so many Voyager episodes do not stick the landing in the
climax.
But this is a great moment when the ship comes down.
It's really good and I love the special effect. through the
window.
Yeah, so...
It feels like it's got a bit of a bit of scale to it, doesn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, and I think they almost sell this shitty interior with
that's a big crap.
There's no actual people in that shot because there's lots of
breaking glass and they don't want to injure the actors, I guess.
Oh, I like the fact that when the torpedoes hit the ship, it sort
of bounces, you know?
It's really good, isn't it?
I think it's having ships in, like, because there's real elements
in that.
That's not just computer generated.
They've shot.
They've taken a camera outdoors, I think, and they've shot the sky
and the mountains in the background.
And then they've put the, you know, the ship and the building
which looks good.
Like the building's an interesting design.
I didn't like.
Jaywig is so mad with him here.
Get off my ship, though.
She did to colour before.
But like, he keeps basically saying, look, I told you who we were
you know, like, on the terrible things that we did.
And guess what?
We kept doing them, you silly, silly person.
But I think it would have been better.
I agree.
I think the fact that she, like I just kept going, he needs to be
more seriously punished than this.
And, you know, maybe that's just me being Captain Picard wanting
the Breckins to kind of lose their drug market or whatever.
Um, but it would have been more fun if she had rescued all of the
all of the Kazon and just left the tray behind.
Oh, wow.
I think that would have been a more interesting development.
We just had 2 scenes back to back.
One, where one person on one side of this argument called her a
hypocrite and one on the other side of the argument called her
naive.
So it's the point of this episode to undermine Jane Wade's
character. think so.
And now we get this shitty speech grafted on.
And so I think that this story is interesting, but I don't think
it is about what they desperately wanted to be about.
And so all of this grandstanding at the end and at the beginning
is undermined by the actual thing, which is she made an alliance
with some white people because she thought they were sort of
reasonably similar to her and she made a bad call.
She allied with the wrong people.
Rather than her doubling down here and saying, you know, the
values of the federation are the best principles and allies we can
have, what she should be saying is, I've really made a mistake.
Yeah, I got this wrong.
This appears to be a region of space that doesn't have many rules
and stuff.
So she's being sort of xenophobic as well.
It's kind of like we're not making alliances with people because
foreigners can't be trusted.
Is that what we're taking away from this as well?
But that is the, I mean, there is a thread of that running through
Voyager, which, you know, once we move it out of the alpha
quadrant and we're taking delegates to Pacifica and we're having
you know, like famous scientists on board and we're doing
diplomatic missions and stuff like that, and now we're just having
space adventures instead, then Voyager is going to be much more
about how aliens are our enemies because that's how the show's set
up.
Whereas Star Trek, the Next Generation is much more about building
coalitions and being part of a bigger group and stuff like that.
So, so, like that is a thread.
I think there is a sort of thread of kind of conservatism and
racism that runs through Voyager a bit, I think.
I guess a little bit troubling, isn't it?
And then I think that is, um, enhanced when we skip into
enterprise.
Yeah. in a very troubling way that put a lot of people off from
watching it.
I've got a quote from Jerry Taylor here about that last scene.
If you'd care to hear it.
And she goes, I like the dilemma that Janeway was put in.
I thought that was interesting.
I regret the final speech I put in her mouth because it comes
across as exactly that.
One of those preachy Picard like moments where she has to lecture
people about the importance of something, but it did seem like a
good idea at the time.
Yeah, it just comes across as defensive and petulant and her
refusing to learn the real lesson and it is just, uh, it's not
because of the character.
It's a problem with the writing, isn't it?
And they can do that as well because there are episodes where
Janeway sort of muses. especially the decision to keep them in the
Delta Quadrant.
So it's not like they're above Janeway questioning herself and the
poor, poor judgements that she makes.
I felt, I wonder if it's just because we've only got a single
scene and it's like, well, we've got to wrap this up and, you know
we don't want to deal with the case on for another half series.
So let's just let's just say, right.
Federation rules great.
And then moving to threshold.
Oh, God, which has now started.
Technically, we are doing a bit of fresh off now, Star Trek
Project, because I can't wait till we get to that one.
It's so unpleasant to watch, isn't it?
It's just like it's not just bad in all sorts of sort of bad ways
but it's actively just unpleasant to watch.
You and I, we've done latter Voyager episodes where they were good
standalone episodes, like, um, the Hirogen 2-parter, you know
Scorpion, where there were some, there were interesting things
going on, but they were sort of standalones.
This is.
It's flawed, but I think it's far more interesting that they're
doing something with the quadrant with the balance of power with
the characters they've established, bringing in secondary
characters that are going to run through the rest of the season in
interesting ways.
You know, somebody, again on Voyager, who's working against them.
It's an interesting time for the show.
I just wish they hadn't abandoned it completely.
I think they would have got better at doing it, the sort of the
further they went along.
Yeah, I think we said that about state of flux.
It seemed to be like just an early premise.
It seemed very voyagery.
And that was nice.
Like I liked that version of the show, the one that culminates, I
guess, in basics, is fun.
And in a way, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense as we've seen
but there is an attempt to just do more than Star Trek the Next
Generation with a different group of people in a different set of
sets, I think.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it is time for us to
work out what we're going to do next and it's Joe's turn.
So Joe, how are we choosing this week?
Wow, I'm going to be utterly predictable.
We're not leaving 90s trek and I'm not going to do all of them.
No, I just love it.
I want to do another DS9. so sorry.
Okay, cool.
Yeah, I don't think we've been there for a sort of 5 or 6 now.
We get a couple of Kurtzman's.
We've done a Voyager, our next gen, and an original series since
the last time we did this.
I think.
No, no, let's do that.
I think that'll be really fun. absolutely.
Okay.
Let me just get rid of all the others.
Okay.
So, Bosch.
Ooh, why?
So it's in the middle of a big arc.
Oh, okay.
Your random Star Trek D Space 9 episode is Rocks and Shoals. season
6.
Ooh, episode two.
Yeah, I remember that.
Now, we aren't doing all 6 of those in one episode.
But that does mean that that's a way in to kind of talk about that
six-part run.
And I remember rocks and shoals.
I think it's a good episode.
It is a really good episode, but I'll never do the 1st one, so I'm
not sorry.
Okay.
Your random Star Trek Deep Space 9 episode is season five, episode
five.
Oh, God.
The assignment.
Keiko O'Brien goes bad.
It's the 1st one with the power race.
He plays it brilliantly.
But it is how...
So this, we talked about it because in PowerPlay, Miles is um
Miles is threatening Molly and Keiko in 10 forward, and then in
the assignment, She's threatening Molly, isn't she?
And brushing her hair.
Yes, that hurts.
I do like that. don't know if I want to do that.
Oh, so can.
But it's not very typical, but it is pretty great.
You know, I'm going to press it again.
I'm sorry.
Do you know what?
I would really love to wax lyrical about Rosalind Chow as well.
We'll get to it.
Ooh, I would like to do this one.
Oh, okay, good.
Okay.
But it is season 7 again.
Yep, that's all right.
Okay, this isn't part of an even bigger arc.
Oh.
Oh, it's the end, is it?
Yeah, part of the last 10.
It would be the 1st time we've got into the end as well.
Star Trek D Space 9 episode is season seven, episode 20, the
changing face of evil.
I love that title.
It's our biggie as well.
There's loads of stuff going on in that.
Do you remember?
That's the one where the Defiance destroyed.
It's the one where wind stabs Sobor.
It's the one where Damar turns against the Dominion in that
fabulous speech at the end.
And it's also the one where Keiko cooks Cisco's peppers.
That sounds perfect.
I'm sold You had near the peppers.
I mean, I would I would love to go into one of these sort of big
arcs and this is sort of smack bang in the middle as well.
There's sort of 3 episodes before this. where all the plots sort
of rumble, and then this is the episode where...
This is where they come to a hit.
All of those plots are sort of, yeah, brought to a big sort of
twist.
And then that leads us into the 2nd half of the arc.
Right, brilliant.
All right, that sounds perfect.
There'll be a lot to say.
Maybe a lot to say.
Excellent.
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
Well, online at untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find
links to our Twitter, mastered on Facebook and YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 4th of July 2023 and released on
the 7th of July.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Deep Space 9, the changing
face of evil.
Well, you have the last word at once.
Oh, you sure?
Oh, God, let me turn this last one.
Next way.
Oh, my God.
Coffs his tongue up and stuff.
It's so yucky.
Fucking hell.
Who wants to watch that?
And it's the worst, Robert, going on about, like, with, like, all
the later characters in the world.
We haven't done like a full on Paris episodes.
There's plenty of them.
That thing where he's moaning about, whether his father loves him
as well, like that's the other sort of emotional arc of that
episode, it's just like so grotesque.
Oh, bad.
What were you thinking?
No, but it's bad.
Like, I acknowledge that people think Genesis is bad and they're
sort of wrong, but they're not crazy, but this is really, like
threshold is properly bad in that just, ugh.
It's like coarse oblivion.
It's just like, fuck.
Why do I want to watch that?
Yeah, and demon.
Yeah, yeah.
He's in actually, uh, Tom Solinski's in sort of mid-season 5 now.
I think it's Goodwill, 7 of line coming in as depleted because
there are some absolute clangors.
I mean, I think that season 5 is generally quite strong, but yeah
the more he's going through it, he's going, yeah, was he just
doing nothing human?
Just tedious.
But then he didn't, he said counterpoint was nothing special.
I think that's right.
No, I think it's good.
It's probably well written.
Yeah, good performance.
All right.
Okay, I'll do the intro.
The guy who plays Jonas is called Raphael's barge.
Great.
I have a work he's done.
Should have kept him around.
How do you say it?
Dahmer and Greg.
Will and Grace charmed.
He's been in everything.
24.
Is that guy?
He isn't that guy.
He's good.
He's in Quantum Leap.
Um, Seaquest DSV.
Murder she wrote.
There you go.
Yeah, but they've all been in that.
Kate Mulgar has done free of those.
All right, let's go.
All right, it's the end of the episode.