Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we are back on Deep Space 9, and this is a big deal, I think.
It's like a massive major arc 2 parter right in the middle of your
favourite season of Star Trek, which is season 5 of Deep Space
Nine.
Yeah, I do, I think there is an argument to be made with D Space 9
with every successive season, it got better and better.
But my personal favourite season is series 5 because I think this
is the point where they absolutely ace fantastic standalone
episodes and fantastic arc episodes. 6 and 7.
It's so arc-based that the standalone sort of fall to the wayside
a little bit, whereas they get the balance just right here.
Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of like those things, like the beginning of
6 has like 6 parts or something, 6 or 7 weeks where we're not on
the station.
Dominion's in charge of it.
And I think different things happen every week.
Like, I think they get a good balance between serialised and and
they do the incredible thing of changing the status quo of the
show, which is something that, you know, neither of the 2 previous
Star Trek series would ever have considered.
I have to say that I really did enjoy this.
And it's not normally what I look for in Star Trek, but it was
really terrifically enjoyable.
And I thought maybe part 2 was stronger than part one.
I thought that this time round as well, and I've always gone the
other way, thinking in pagetry shadow was the better of the two.
I think this is really well paced in that it's a lot of setup in
part one.
And then it's just a bit relentless in part two, isn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's it's just sort of properly fun.
And there was a couple of lines of dialogue throughout the thing
that had me laughing out loud.
Like they do funny jokes in Deep Space Night, but 90 Star Trek
doesn't normally do clever dialogue, I think, and there were some
really, really clever lines that I had to pay watching these.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, my favourite being, excuse me, gentlemen.
Could you point me in the direction of the wormhole?
That wasn't even my favourite.
I think Cisco has a really terrific line.
I you know, I just think the whole thing is pretty well judged and
just terribly entertaining.
And I do remember what it felt like at the time.
You know, that 1st big 2 part of it had Tain in it that introduced
him, like, and that being a massive deal.
And then this following it up as well.
Like I just kind of remember what that felt like at the time.
What this is doing.
This 2 part, and a lot of DS9 sort of big hissing episodes do is
it's paying off stuff from the past while setting up stuff for the
future.
So the whole show's in flux in this two-parter.
And I really like that.
Yeah, you're right.
We're paying off tane.
We're dealing with the wharf Garak relationship, which has been
very fracturous to this point, but can't remain so because
basically Garak's about to join the crew and we can't have wolves
sitting there scowling in the corner of the room. you know every 5
minutes.
And then this is essentially a massive prelude for a call to arms
where like Cisco's going, you know, we've pushed back war for
today and we're kind of thinking, well, you know, we've seen TNG.
They're never going to go to war.
Like, they always suggest that we're just on the brink of it, and
then, of course, that's exactly where we go at the end of the
season.
Yeah, it is pretty incredible.
And I think you're right about Deep Space 9 getting better season
by season and it is that sort of weird idea that is promised by
series one that it's an outpost in a distant corner of the galaxy
that's not at all important.
And that's kind of the story that the opening titles are telling
as well.
Like it's deserted and distant.
But look what they've done with. that.
Look what they've done with that because in the 2nd episode, Gowron
goes, 5 years ago, nobody ever heard of Big Space 9.
Now all our hopes rest here.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, that's the great thing about it is that they kind of
go, actually, let's do a thing that Star Trek never did, which is
change the status quo of the quadrant, I guess we're calling it
now, during the run of it, and actually make the show very largely
about that.
And that's really fun and interesting because you can do things
that would have been ruled out in previous Star Trek, I think.
And so here we have, you know, the beginning of a massive invasion
and the consequences of that is something that we're going to live
with for ages.
The last comparable thing we did, I think, was Scorpion part one
where it looked like some huge change was going to take place in
the premise of the show.
And then it lasted a couple of episodes and we went back to sort
of the same old nonsense every week.
So this is pretty fun, I think.
The one thing, obviously, we're talking about the big sweeping
changes in the series and all the politics that are going on.
The one thing we haven't mentioned is the characters.
And if you will, I have a small prepared statement here, I did
this the last time we did a big Dominion 2 parter, just to talk
about why I thought the Dominion War was so good, but I really
want to focus on because I think I remember reading a review of
part one in Purgatory Shadow, where someone compared it
unfavourably to Babylon 5, saying, oh, this is just like a Babylon
5, 2 parter, but, you know, just loads of character stuff, and not
as exciting..
Whereas I think the characters are absolute, the biggest strength
of DS9.
That's my biggest in is my biggest draw. the reason why I keep
watching.
So if I, if I may, go on.
This does go on a bit.
So, yeah, you want to cut me off.
It's fine.
So what I've put here is it's the characters that make Dig Space 9
shine. relationships that add richness, personality and personal
stakes to all the politicking.
Having a stationary setting means we have a series with
consequences, but also relationships with form, evolve, surprise
and delight.
There are funny warm, deep friendships.
There are love stories that are mature and fractuous and even
tragic, ultimately.
And there's long-standing adversaries built on years of hate.
There's families everywhere.
You've got the O'Briens, you've got Cisco, you've got Cork, Rom
and Nog, but you've also got the family that's built during the
show on the station.
This is a show all about wastes and strays from all corners of the
alpha quadrant ending up in a remote outpost together and learning
to live with each other's differences.
And it's how those characters learn to support each other while
staying true to who they are, that make this the best and most
dysfunctional family in the Star Trek universe.
And then I just very quickly knocked off some pairings.
Okay, so just think about these pairings as I knock them off very
quickly.
O'Brien and Bashir, Bashir and Garak, Garak and Odo, Odo and Quark
Quark and Kira, Kira and Dax, Dax and Worf, Worf and Cisco, Cisco
and Jake, Jake and Nog, Nog and Rom, Rom and Lisa, like all of
those relationships bear massive fruit.
And then you've got like a wealth of secondary characters as well
that are just brilliant no matter who they're paired with.
Thai win, Ducart, Weiune, Demar, Gowron, Martoc, Vic Fontaine
Garak.
Like, it's the characters that absolutely define this show.
And I feel like they brought in the absolute best talent.
They can find these sort of brilliant theatrical actors that can
bring these characters alive, just a bit above naturalism with a
lot of personality.
And this is why I tune in.
I just love the characters on this show and I think this two
parter exemplifies why the characters are so good.
Yeah, you see that trend starting with Pillar in Star Trek, the
Next Generation, where it's kind of, if it's not about our
characters, it's not a thing, and they have a rule where someone
whose name appears in the opening titles has to be in literally
every scene of Star Trek, the Next Generation, pretty much.
Here, though, what they kind of do is they're able to lean into
that even more because it stops being a procedural.
It's not a show about space problems at all.
It is a show about this place where these people live and it's
much, much more like a soap opera.
I think, than any other Star Trek.
And that is in no way a criticism because I think soap operas are
pretty great.
And certainly a soap opera that has a lot of money and a lot of
thought and good writers and stuff can be a very good piece of
television.
So here there's all kinds of preposterous soap opera conceits, like
you know.
Yeah, yeah, someone's been replaced by their look-alike on the
station.
I mean you could...
That is literally step from Dallas, hasn't it?
That's exactly it.
Someone, it turns out is someone's secret father.
Someone had a daughter who he was hiding and now is, you know
being looked after by his mortal enemy and stuff.
The villain of the show's daughter is trying to have it off with
his worst enemy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All of that stuff is just classic soap and we care about it
because we really like those characters and the stakes are kind of
you know, important and they get involved in sort of fabulous
space things which attracts us as well.
So I think we get the best of both worlds.
But you know, like the, the, I promise you, we'll go in in a 2nd
because we've got 2 hours to talk about, but the massive strength
of that.
And I think some people were saying this as a weakness, is that
because it's not a procedure, everybody, because it is a soap
opera, it means then you get episodes like bar association, which
is Rome, like, cool, having a union against Quark, and it really
it's a really dramatic and funny episode, or you get something
like, um, It's only a paper moon, which is a Vic Fontaine and Nog
which is one of the most touching episodes of Star Trek, or
something like looking for a palmark in all the wrong places where
everyone's just trying to fuck each other that week, you know. and
comedy and shoes.
I think those episodes are fantastic and they're unique.
Yeah, yeah.
Look, I mean, sometimes a Star Trek will kind of go off concept a
bit to do something like that.
I mean, think about lower decks or data's day in Star Trek, the
Next Generation.
Night in Sick Bay.
And I always appreciate those because I think it's actually quite
nice to have an episode that isn't just about solving a space
problem where we do something different.
And here it's an entire show made of those things.
And I think too, the other thing is the difference between this
and Babylon 5 is that the writers here are discovering things
about their characters and deciding to take them in different
directions.
And so, for instance, this wasn't part of a master plan that
included a big war with the Klingons in series 4.
It's just that they got wharf in and then had to do something with
him and so decided to do that before the war.
And then that gets taken at the end of the season and the
beginning of this season and actually becomes, it turns out, part
of the Dominion war, kind of in retrospect.
And so we get all of this stuff where they're discovering things
about the characters and learning what the actors are good at and
writing to that.
And I think that that's what we get, for instance, in Battlestar
Galactica.
And just in the best kind of television, I think, because
televisions are weird, collaborative medium.
It's vulnerable to things that are happening outside the world of
the show.
Love that, don't you?
Yes, absolutely.
When the real world hits the show and forces them to be creative
in another direction.
That's right.
Terry's not coming back next year. you know.
And so they have to do something about it.
And they're doing that all the time on this show and I think it's
really, really great.
It shows in the way the show develops and that's what's
interesting about it.
They don't just start with a premise and churn out adventures in
this particular setting.
They do something quite different.
And I think that that's what makes the show so special.
And what's astonishing is when you then look back after series 7
most of this improvisation looks deliberate.
Occasionally, it's a little bit awkward, but as a body of work, it
looks like a story that was pre-planner.
We know they're just making this shit up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, you can't, or it sort of turns up being in charge of
whatever passes for Cardassia, you know, during this part of the
show, and you can see the gears.
Do you know what I mean?
You can see kind of behind the scenes what's going on.
But all of that's fun and that's also part of how a soap opera
works too, I think.
He's just had a, like, a whole season where he's defected from
Cardassia and he's just going round in a Klingon ship.
You know, I'm saying, I'm going to bring down the marquee and all
on my own.
And you're like, okay, they're done. sure what to do with him at
this point.
And then they've gone right.
Actually, he's going to make secret negotiations with the Dominion
and then he's going to usurp the throne and be the head of
Cardassia again, you know.
And we're...
We love him.
So we love it when he does that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
We probably should watch this thing, you know.
I think we should let's go in.
So I will count us in.
Five, four, three, two, one and we're off.
In memory of Derek golf.
Yeah, I didn't look that up.
I don't know who that is, I'm afraid.
I think it was somebody on the production team.
Read, but I didn't quite see who it was.
Ah, so now Odo is rearranging his quarters because for a period
he's been a solid.
That was his punishment at the end of series four, but now he's
you remember that fabulous scene where it becomes the bird on the
promenade.
The little baby changeling, gave him his regenerative powers
back.
It was a totally cod explanation, but it was a nice moment.
So now he doesn't need a bed anymore, basically.
Yeah, yeah.
And he's got that jungle gym that he kind of wraps himself around
in and stuff like that.
Yes, and this is kind of a funny scene because in fact, what this
episode does is it just checks in with all of the characters and
it's like it's kind of nice.
Look at this.
This is purely about their relationship.
So we spend a little bit of time.
Odo's kind of embarrassed because he was going to be humanoid
which meant he was going to have to like have sex with people or
something.
Do you know what I mean?
Or would have to have a sort of normal relationship rather than a
sort of squishy gelatinous relationship?
And so it's just about that, but it also gives these 2 a chance to
act opposite one another.
But even this, like they improvise this completely, this
relationship because, but they never let you forget it.
So here he's a bit embarrassing.
She's going, you know, give women a chance.
You might enjoy it.
You know, keep reading the book and he's really embarrassed
because he's in love with her.
We know that at this point And then Children of Time hits and she
finds out about that, then call her arms hits and she says, look
let's put this all aside and just focus on the war.
And then his way hits and, well, shit hits the fan then.
And I think too, we are going to get just a little bit of stuff
about the recent pregnancy.
And that was a conversation that I thought was really genuinely
funny.
So again, we're just checking in on this sort of recent
preposterous soap opera development.
You know, the thing that they came up with to deal with.
The fact that Nana was actually pregnant.
I was just shocked that they made a far joke.
It's probably gas.
But I just think I think it's really fun.
I think that it's super adorable.
It's probably gas.
Well, and a lot of people said that was that damaged her character
a bit, having her moving in with the O'Briens and have the baby
loved all that stuff.
Yeah, so we talked about that because we did look in with Palmark
in all the wrong places and that happens kind of in the middle of
that.
Um, but doesn't she, oh, O'Brien will come in and that's when that
part of the conversation happens, which I just think is adorably
clever.
Like, he had a way.
So this is New Zealand.
This is the 3rd ZR that we've had, and this is the one we'll stay
with for 6 episodes.
Can I tell you something really funny about that, though?
This is Melanie Smith, right?
was like, okay, so this is like the 3rd cigar we've had.
He goes, it goes, and I really wish I'd stuck to my guns because I
kept saying to them, well, look, let's just recast her in every
episode.
Just to remind people of the artifice that we're making a TV show
and no one would go with it.
No, we found a good actress now.
We're going with it Yes, I think maybe that would have been taking
it a bit far, although I am broadly supportive of the principle.
I think she's kind of, I don't really remember the other two.
I think it's the 1st one is in the episode where she turns up in
and then there's a, yeah, and there's a 2nd one who does like
maybe 2 episodes, 2 or three.
It was the one where that establishes her relationship with
Garrett because she's off to the Kardashian Saunders in the Holla
Suites and Garrett's.
She invites him along and he thinks that she's going to kill him
because she's going to cut storm.
And in fact, no, she just wants a friend and then you get a scene
where Kira comes along, shuts him against the wall and says, if
you hurt her, I'll kill you, all right?
And so they decide that I think they're probably working even at
this point, aren't they working towards having her die in the
opening episodes of series 6?
And so they're giving us more of her and trying to make her more
likeable so that that lands when it eventually happens.
Like, it's sad, but we were never going to have Garak having a gay
relationship on this show.
Like and he's totally coded as gay when he's introduced.
He's campus hell.
He's coming onto Bashir, you know, and I still think he plays it
that way, and I do like his relationship with Zel, because he's a
little bit awkward and tentative about it, and there's an age gap
as well.
Like the whole thing is a bit awkward.
But there is a connection there.
Yeah, yeah.
I have to say that I really like the fact that Julian isn't fooled
by any of Garak's crap.
So Garak has said, you know, the message that we received.
So all of the Romulans, like heaps of Romulans and Cardassians go
into the, uh, into the Gamma Quadrant in probable cause, is that?
Improbable causing the dire's cost.
Yeah. a big fleet goes off to the Dominion planet.
They try and bomb the planet and in fact, one of the Romulans on
the ship is a founder.
They set the whole thing up, the Gemma Dark come along, surround
them, and blast the fleet to ship, and Tain's among them, is that
right?
Yeah, so we think he's dead.
Yeah.
And so this is a message in Cardassian, which is actually from
Tain, but when Garak receives it.
He lies, but because Julian knows him so well, you know, he's
waiting for him in the runabout that he's trying to steal, which I
think again is pretty good.
And again, all of these scenes, we've had what, we've had 3 scenes
now and they've all just been about the relationships between the
characters, just checking in on everyone, but we have kind of
progressed the plot as well.
The plot is moving, yeah.
I like the way Garak says.
And if Captain Cisco wants any more help. deciphering anymore
Cardassian laundry lists, let him know I'm available.
It's just like not for a 2nd.
Do you believe that he's been telling the truth?
You know, it should have been a big clue, actually, that Bashir
was a changeloom because he's not usually this savvy, is he?
That's right.
Well, he's not a changing at the moment as far as we know.
And so how telegraphed was that?
Do we know?
No, no, no.
So the 1st we know of it is when he's revealed in this episode, but
it's obviously taken place for, so Bashir's been a changing for at
least 4 episodes because Rapture, which was 4 episodes. was when
they changed the uniforms and he's wearing the old uniform.
And I thought that was really great.
So we do get a reference to the recent stuff with a Borg.
So we get a reference to 1st contact.
So that's clearly been recently, and we've switched over the
uniform.
So this is now the 3rd Starfleet uniform or maybe the 4th since
the beginning of Star Trek, the next generation.
They do change uniforms an awful lot.
I do prefer these uniforms, though.
I just feel they look a bit more military, but to go into the war
you know?
Yeah, I mean, I think they I think that they look pretty good and
I kind of like, yeah, yeah.
Although the Voyager ones are perfectly good too, I think.
Yeah, yeah.
So this is Garak telling you the truth now.
I know it.
I have to go and find him.
And I think maybe maybe because it's Bashir, he will open up or he
thinks it's Bashir.
Yeah.
And so that's a big surprise next season.
I think it's a really good one and I do think that using the
uniform to kind of indicate it is very clever.
And I was wondering when they changed uniforms.
So they change in the middle of the season, like not.
Yeah, you can almost see the writers having a light bulb moment.
Like, okay, see, we'll make for sure a change, saying, oh, my God
we've changed the uniform, so we can indicate this has been a long
time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think, like what they must do is they must decide to make
Deep Space 9 used the 1st contact uniforms and leave Voyager not
in those uniforms to kind of differentiate them to give them a
different look, which I think works quite well.
Oh, Nathan, I love that bit as well, where you go, all right, well
then, let's go.
To Captain Cisco.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I think he gets a great line here.
Cisco doesn't actually seem to get that much to do in this to
parter.
He's in a bit, but, you know, it's mostly happening with the other
characters and a lot of it's happening off the station
particularly in part two.
That would bother me, but in the next 2.5 years, Cisco gets a shit
ton to do.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I'm not worried. does make the show different from other Star
Treks, but he gets a really clever line at the end of this scene
which I thought was really great.
I love all of this.
Garak, it talks such bullshit. you know, this is a mission of
mercy.
All those people that we lost to the dominionship.
There could be survivors out there, captain.
You know, you owe it to them.
But he doesn't expect to be believed, I think, and he isn't
really.
So...
The best the best bullshit he gives is when he tries to convince
Wolf.
He wants to join Starfleet Academy.
I think that's a good scene and we'll talk about it when we get
there. that's really particularly good.
So who goes with him?
Wolf?
Ah, here we go.
And so that's this again is just checking in with characters, isn't
it?
Well, it is, and it's about time too, because they 1st got it on
and looking for a palmark in all the wrong places.
Then we had, unfortunately, let he, who is without sin...
A couple of episodes, which was terrible, and it really did a bit
of damage to the sort of credibility of Dax and Wharf.
And now here, they're like, okay, well, you need to give this just
a scene or a bit of focus.
And I like this because she's doing what I'll do in my other
Ralph.
She ribbing at him.
You know, she's annoying him in every way possible.
And then at the end of the scene, there's a bit of passion.
She just snogs him.
I like the threat to his collection as well.
And this is something else.
You know, he has a very carefully curated collection of media that
he really likes.
And she says, I'm going to borrow it.
And who knows?
You know, I could look...
You have a tendency to like, whatever.
And it's kind of like her low level kind of way of manipulating
him to come back.
And I like that.
And one of the things that happens here too is that a lot of these
scenes have corresponding scenes in part 2 that pay off.
And so this gets paid off.
It doesn't get forgotten.
I also like, as well, I said in my little speech at the beginning
of the episode, that I like the fact that they're allowed to be
their own cult, like people respect each other's cultures.
And she says to him at the end of the day, saying, have a glorious
death or not.
It's up to you.
But she's respecting the fact that he's a Klingon and he's going
off into a dangerous situation.
I like that.
She's so good.
Holy crap.
I don't know if you recall in TNG.
They spent most of TNG telling Wolf, you know, you need to stop
thinking like a Klingon and, you know, start behaving like a human
being.
Well, he's not a human being.
No.
Well, and and he doesn't get that because we're not doing a
procedural and he doesn't have to be there to say that um, say
things that are wrong all the time.
He doesn't have to be wrong all the time.
Do you know this is the only episode of Deep Space 9 to be
directed by a woman?
Wow.
Gabrielle Beaumont.
Yeah, she did a couple of TNGs and she did this.
She did, I think she might have done Voyager as well, one on some
Voyager.
Did she?
She might have done.
She did a handful.
She didn't do many.
Yeah.
But apparently the castle, they really responded well to her.
They should have had a room for more because I think she's she's
got a good hand with the actors in this.
Well, and this is absolutely just an actor's piece.
There's been no action so far, has there?
We are just talking.
And we haven't even had any kind of opticals, like no special
effects at all yet.
And they are scarce throughout this two-parter.
I didn't really mind. everyone is.
Like again, I know all that's coming.
We're going to have some spectacle at the end of the season and
certainly in the next 2 years.
Oh, and we get a big, a big special effect shot is the climax of
the 1st episode.
I love that.
Yeah, so much.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
Tell you about when I 1st watched that.
Yeah, and there's plenty of stuff going on in the 2nd part.
Like, I think there are more sort of establishing shots and stuff
like that. certainly a lot of fights.
Yeah.
I was thinking about that because, you know, we were just doing
Star Trek, the original series and we're talking about how like a
fistfighters.
Here we go. bit of action.
Oh, yes.
Now look.
You know and I know that this show is gold.
If you've got Dukat and Garak in the same scene.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I like it when so Garak's literally been thrown almost off the
edge of Quark's bar there onto the double table and he gets up and
he goes, you know what?
I think that actually helped my back.
So this is so Garak, again, we're checking in with Garak because
his character is about to change quite substantially.
And so you said that, because they do refer to his bird of prey
and I had had to think, well, why he has a bird of prey.
So they refer to that in dialogue and then here, you know, he's
clearly been on the station and stuff like that.
He's not that adversarial character who kind of checks in on the
TV, which he's going to go back to being.
And I think the scene with him and Kira is really great as well.
I mean, they're always good, but I mean, I think I think some of
the things between Dukat and Kira during the occupation arc at the
beginning of 6 are probably the best stuff they ever had because
he's in a position of power over her there and they just sizzle
those themes.
Here, it's about as far away from that as possible.
She doesn't even acknowledge him.
Yeah.
How about this?
The thing that occurs to me is that in discovery, of course, the
president of the Federation is like she's human mostly, but she
has some Bajoran and some Cardassian.
And so there's a sort of like Ziel's makeup isn't a 1000000 miles
away from her makeup.
And it is a sort of striking visual, isn't it?
Just because, you know, just because of...
Yeah, as well. yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, God.
The way it might be like that, I assume that's a joke.
And that he says we will see.
And the way he delivers the line, like there's no way of telling
if it's a joke or not, because that's how Worf talks.
It's really clever.
It's really well judged.
At the 1st sight of deception.
I will kill them.
I will kill him.
I will bring somebody back intact.
It's really good.
The 2 of them, they're just perfectly written for.
And then this...
Oh, I think the dialogue in this scene is blissful.
I actually think that it does make, just for the sake of the joke
just so that it lands, it makes Wolf a bit too stupid.
Well, wharf's always stupid.
I know, but it's fairly clear to us, I think, that he's just
tormenting wharf.
And Worf buys it a little bit too easily, I think.
I think they should have allowed him to be more sceptical.
But it is really funny.
And of course, the reason this scene is here is because of where
these characters end up at the end of episode two, which I think
is so good.
I don't know if you remember in series, the series 4 finale, Broken
Link. When they're at the Changeling Planet.
Remember Odo's sort of turning into gloops and they go back to the
change in planet?
And Garak, in revenge for Tain, so it's tied into this again, tries
to take control of the defiance torpedoes to nuke the planet and
wharf catches him and they have a massive fight.
It ends with Wharf going, you fight well for a tailor.
It's a great scene, but it really shows that there is this sort of
fiery hatred between these 2 characters.
And they needed to address that here.
So I think this is really good at establishing it and like you say
after they've both proven their worth to each other in the 2nd
episode, then we acknowledge that actually things are different
now.
Yeah, I mean, I think we enjoy watching Garak, but if you are
going to make him irregular and basically treat him like one of
the team, I think that we need to see that he's good in terms that
we understand, you know, that he's a good person, you know, I
think we've occasionally seen that even of Quark, you know, that
he is in lots of ways, a much better person than he would like to
admit.
What's wonderful about this scene between Dakart and Kira, apart
from the performances, which are great, is obviously he knows he's
about to sell them out to the Dominions.
And he knows that threatening her has consequences.
She has no clue.
No idea.
Yeah, yeah.
And in fact, she's absolutely dismissive.
There's a wonderful reaction here when he starts threatening and
she is just absolutely indifferent to it.
Like, you know, I think and she plays it really well.
She plays it really, really well.
These 2 are always great.
Well, it's the line, he goes, when he goes, there was a time when
Bajorans took Cardassian threats very seriously, and she just goes
yeah, not anymore.
Yeah, yeah, it's really good. isn't it?
It's really good.
But I think this team works even better after seeing the 2nd
episode.
And I think it's credible as well.
Like, I think that, like, you're having an argument about whether
Ziel is allowed to have this relationship with Garak, and I want
to hear, I think, that Kira thinks it's a bad idea, but, you know
she's not going to intervene because, yeah, as a young woman and
you know, that's not how you bring someone up or how you look
after a young adult.
And what was interesting was when Descartes basically gave the out
to Kira to look after on the station.
He even says it's it's great because now I've got a link to you
because it's always had this thing for Kira.
It's always sort of bubbling under this sort of, um, uh, want he
has for her.
And now this is like the ultimate betrayal that...
It's worst enemy.
No, her line, if that's a threat, I'm not impressed.
Like it's really good.
It's really good.
And you know, like Kira's, Kira's not in this an enormous amount.
Like she, but I think when she is in.
Like, I love the bit at the end of the episode where she's like
saying, well, what about the Celestial Temple?
Yeah, you know, like this is what you want to destroy.
And my favourite bit was where she took the chair in episode two.
She took the Defiant and I'm thinking, well, we've come a long way
from to turn about intruder, haven't we?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And can I say, none of this time I was been watching some
convention anecdotes recently and none of visitors on stage there
going, every time I got to take the chair, you know, I felt so
powerful and in control.
And she goes, and there was Renee, obviously, while next to me
going, na, you know this is not real, right?
You're not really in command of a spaceship.
Let me have my moment, Renee, okay?
It just reminds me of all that stuff about Jerry Ryan in Picard
series 3 saying how much she likes sitting in the chair and
because it was a spinny chair.
It was a swivel chair and she just loved the civil chair.
Like, just adorable.
Oh, do you know, this is very funny.
They go through this nebula, right?
a stock nebula that they used in vortex.
It's exactly the same one.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it looks a bit like the Mutara nebula from...
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yes, I think I've seen Borg navigating their way around that
you're right.
It's in best of both worlds.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's right.
Maybe part 2 when they're kind of trying to run out the clock.
He's using every bit of wordplay at his disposal. keep going, isn't
it?
But I love, I love it as they go in and all those ships start
emerging.
And it reminded me a bit of Scorpion when we said, you know, my
God, there's 50 there was like 15 ball cubes or something in the
Scorpion and you see about 20 ships emerge.
I like that too.
There's a little level of honesty here where Worf does say I'm
being played.
You're using this word, you know, you don't really care about it
or know what it means.
And he says, yeah, but you do.
It works on you.
And he kind of acknowledges yes, you know, it does.
And so they both want the same thing.
And so they both, you know, go in and do that.
It's not a great lot as well.
Garrett just going steady as she?
Oh my god.
I mean, there's about 30 ships there.
I don't know how many.
Oh, at least.
And so there are 2 types of Gemini ships, aren't there?
They're the little ones that look like cockroaches, which I think
are really great.
And then these big...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. they look really good.
Oh my god, action.
Jesus Christ.
Yep, we're getting some action. people are firing things That's
right.
I love the battle cruises.
They look like sort of weird snails or something.
They're really odd looking.
And you know, there is that pathetic, pathetic little runabout.
So you know they're not going to last long here.
Yeah, yeah.
The funniest line in buying photos live was when Cisco went, launch
the runabouts, as they're going to war.
What the hell are they going to do?
You know?
So bad.
Oh, I love this bit where they beam on though. and literally the
audience gets smacked in the face by a gem.
It's a it's a surprisingly stylish bit of direction there.
There's such, yeah, good.
Smack straight into the car.
Whenever he's in danger, do you remember where the Warrior, where
it's like, well, let me guess.
You're either lost or desperately searching for a good tailor.
So this scene here, right?
So Kirioshi already recognises me, he says Kira, and Terry, who is
the science officer, says that's not possible, and like explains
it and all of that sort of thing.
And so she's arguing against it.
Terry doesn't believe it.
Dax doesn't believe it.
And then she walks in and says it to stupid Miles O'Brien.
He recognises me.
It's just like, oh, great.
You know, this thing is so good.
He believes it immediately.
I just think it's absolutely adorable.
It's a funny line and a, you know, like a clever joke, I think
something so important happens here.
I think this is this is where DS9 turns a gear in this scene.
You go from characters just bantering to them, suddenly saying
flee imminent, and that's when the show changes.
That's when the Dominion is here and we're going to war
basically.
But I mean, compare this to the sort of just butt clenchingly
embarrassing banter that you get on Voyager, like just regularly.
That conversation between the 2 women and then the payoff when she
speaks to Miles and he does like a comedy response.
I think it's really good.
They mostly do that really well.
I can remember.
Oh, yeah.
Do you remember that time O'Brien and Bashira are fighting over
that model and Kira just goes, well, that's what happens when you
share your toys.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, no.
Let's just go saying and God help us all.
Yes.
Okay.
And so this model shot, which is not a model shot.
This CGI shot, we're going to see quite a lot.
This is our prison.
I do like it, though. a prison on an asteroid though.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think it looks like it's kind of boring.
Like it's a it's a boring set because it's a prison.
High ceilings though, and like weird angles.
It feels faster. yeah you're right.
And also, I really like the moonlight coming in as well.
It means they can put a bit of dramatic lighting on people.
Yeah.
And it, you know, I really noticed an episode too, when that
moonlight was hitting the gem Hadar, just how detailed those masks
are.
Yeah, yeah, they are pretty good, aren't they?
I mean, there's a lot of latex in this city.
There's a lot of latex in this show.
A lot of latex, yeah. that's right I think when DS9 ended, the
latex business.
So you were like, oh, what are we going to do?
Yeah, what are you going to do?
I like this head Jemhadar as well.
And the noble leader, Jemhadar, is a thing that they go with.
And I think he's really good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's he's great in this.
And in fact, it's that thing where Worf and that Jemhadar have
something much more fundamentally in common than the Jemhadar has
with the Vorta, who runs the prison.
Yeah, I love that bit.
We'll get there in episode two, where he says he yields.
That's amazing.
So brilliant.
This is brilliant.
This is pure, soap opera.
It's like, you're staying for him, aren't you?
That despicable tale.
You don't want to leave, just stay careful, Taylor.
And I was like, yes.
I feel like I've switched onto neighbours with latex, you know?
It's exactly it.
This is all I want from television.
But it is rooted.
All that backstory is already there and has been explored.
So it's not like they're just, it's not like Voyager where they're
just saying words for that episode.
No, that's right.
That's it.
Well, because it's ongoing because it is like a soap opera.
And like it is that thing where we watch Star Trek, the way that
people watch soap operas, you know, a soap opera, like Star Trek, a
Star Trek episode in 2023 can refer to a Star Trek episode in the
60s and a lot of the, you know, viewers will get what it's talking
about and soaps operate that way as well.
You know, we know minutie about these people's lives.
Yeah, look how tall the ceilings are.
It is a good set.
That show has been embedded into like public consciousness for
such a long time.
Yeah.
Yeah, for a 2nd I thought this might be Hertzler, JJ Hertzler, but
it's not, is it?
Because it's Martok.
It's the 1st half of this, the 1st half of this episode, we've had
like one character scene after another as the plot's been
bubbling.
Now you get a 3 sucker punch of twists.
You get Tain is there.
And we did?
You know, and we kind of suspected that because Garrick said that
but it's, you know, and he's on his last legs.
And you've got Martok there, and nobody suspected that, that he
would be coming back, and then you've got Bashir there, and they
stagger these really well.
Yeah.
And they're good.
Like, they are good soap opera reveals, but they're also really
excellent.
And the Martoc decision, like, it gets you, JJ Hartzer, nearly
every week as a result.
And so it's a great choice.
And it means that Worf, who has been on the show less time than
everyone else, now gets his ancillary character.
You know, the way that Quark has Nog and ROM and the way that
Julian has Garak and stuff like that now, he has Martoc and, you
know, a Deep Space 9 character has to have that, I think.
I always think of like, uh, this is like the Klingon alternative
to Bashir and O'Brien, you know, they're like the best of us
aren't they?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But they might pull a knife on each other, you know.
If the situation warrants it.
And so we recognise Martok, but we've never actually seen Martok.
He's been in prison this whole time.
Yeah, so he's been in prison since before Way of the Warrior.
Yeah.
And that Martok was a changeling.
And then at the end of season four, they try and convince you that
the Changians put an idea in Odo's head that Gauron is changing.
So they go to assassinate Gauron in Apocalypse Rising, and then
the big twist there is no, it was never Gauron.
It was my talk.
I mean, this is great plotting.
And it all came up really well.
But I do think like what we get out of this is not just this
fabulous twist.
It's also going on for the show.
It's great. for Wharf too.
Wonderful.
Do you remember that scene in Strange Bedfellows, where he tells
Cisco, who's just married Cassidy, you know?
I learned a long time ago.
I might win the out battle, but she will always win the war.
He's so charming.
And he does chew the scenery but brilliantly.
Here is Taine, who is kind of American TV royalty like it.
I'm kind of here thinking, 0 my god, they got this guy in all this
latex for several episodes, which was sort of pretty great.
And he is very good.
Did we suspect that he was Garak's father?
I think so.
Because, um, in the 1st episode where he's introduced the wire
which is where Garak's chip in his head malfunctions, and we go to
Cardassia, and it's Tane that gives Bashir the information to
repair it.
Then in the two-parter in series three, Tain says to Garak, I want
you to come and be a part of this.
So there's always been a big connection between the 2 of them.
They just haven't explicitly said... that they're following. a
ton.
And but I think I remember people sort of theorising about it or
guessing, and it's kind of sweet that they just went, oh, yeah
fuck it, let's give it to them.
Let's, and it's only for the sake of this sort of one scene.
And it is...
It does make, it gives context to Garak's exile as well as to why
he's on D Space 9 because in the two-parter, he goes, I never
betrayed you, at least not.
So something went down back in the day where Taine thought that
Garrett betrayed him and that's why he's been exiled and why he
can never go back to Cardassia because Taine's an important
figure.
Yeah, here we go.
Here we just referred to 1st contact.
Um, so we're in the wardroom and what's happening?
Oh, so we're, we're discussing the dominion ships that are on
their way and we're talking about our plan to close the wormhole
at this point.
Is that happening?
Because that gets kind of thrown away in this episode, doesn't
it?
And in fact, they kind of hold it.
Like, I think we do eventually close the wormhole, but the way
that they talk in this episode, it's as if that's no longer a
possibility.
Like we can't even try to close the wormhole now.
And that's obviously because, you know, they're going to end up
letting heaps of dominion, you know, ships through going forward.
This is the one I was telling you about where they mentioned
Lenara can't, because she was trying to do. an artificial wormhole
and rejoined and Jazius, essentially, Lenara was always better on
theory than she was on practice.
And if you watch Marco Lemo's performance in this scene, obviously
he knows, he's read the script for the two-parter, that Dukat is
so he's slouching.
He's barely sort of connecting with the conversation they're
having when when they say, oh, you know, what about Garricka
Wharf?
He just goes, casualties of war.
Yeah.
But it is good.
It is good that Kira says her piece about the wormhole.
Yeah, I think so too.
This guy goes, well, look, it's either that or the Dominion come
along and kill all your people, you know?
Yeah, it's kind of funny, isn't it?
Because, you know, space is so, you know, like they just go
somewhere or they end up wherever they want to be.
And so you don't get that sense really, you know, really get that
sense that if the wormhole that we're talking like years and years
before they could possibly get back.
But that scene where they're sort of discussing tactics and big
shifts, this becomes the norm in DS9 and galog.
But this certainly wasn't the norm in 90s trek.
No, not at all.
Yeah.
So it is like super refreshing.
Yeah, I agree.
Oh, I like the, yeah, Martoc, look, he's got respected
Cardassians.
They're clever people, you know?
Yeah.
And so, and so, and the eye thing, that's just this Martoc, and
he's lost that in prison.
So, yeah, and that's how we distinguish him from the one that we
knew in series four.
Now, I quite like that Romulan that was hanging around in the
prison with them, you know.
But she's a she's got a bit more personality than your average
Romulan.
That is so great, isn't it?
That is such a great, you know, cliffhanger to go to the ad
break.
And it is astonishing that they didn't use that for the
cliffhanger.
And that's only because they had a better cliffhanger in the
wings.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Or a more sort of climactic one.
I think Bashir looks great with a bit of scruff, you know, and a
bit.
Yeah, well I do too. he looks really handsome here.
And the funny thing is that now Bashir back on the station will
start doing the passenger level villain acting, which is so cheesy
and so terrible.
Nowhere near as bad as a passenger.
But it is still kind of bad.
He does that wonderful.
Remember an alias when you had a whole season of fake Francie.
And every time no one was looking at her, she was doing an evil
smile.
And then the 2nd they started looking at her, she's all normal
again.
Bashir starts doing this.
That's what he's doing.
He's in the turbo lift with the most evil smile imaginable.
And then he goes, oh, I brought you some sandwiches.
This thing is so funny.
There he is.
Oh, he's doing an evil smile.
So bad.
He is evil.
Oh, and he's reading them evil sandwiches as well.
There we go.
This is something else that Star Trek does not do.
It doesn't pull the rug like this over, you know, suggesting that
this character that we've been hanging with for the last 4 or 5
episodes.
It isn't that character.
I mean, Voyager does it a bit early on, you know, because you've
got the guy who's signalling the.
Oh, Michael Jones.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. and you've got and then you've got Cesca and stuff
like that.
Cesca's the best one.
Michael Jonas will know he's doing it.
Whereas this is a this is a massive rug pull, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, and I do love then that we get all these scenes in episode
two, where she is in the background looking a bit menacing.
And like, it adds another layer that we know that somebody there
is up to no good.
Well, it's kind of funny because there is also just a kind of
ludicrous space plot, which they thwart, which is that we'll blow
up Bajor's son and destroy everything.
You know, which is absurd.
Um, and, but it gives us a big climax and a big, like it gives us
a victory at the end of the episode as well.
But as well as sort of big climatic battles, the Dominion has also
been known to do, I mean, maybe not something as silly as that.
But like, you know, like the quickening plague and things like
that.
They've used subtler methods than sending out.
And, you know, why use 500 ships when you can use one runabout and
a bomb?
Yeah.
Yeah, but I mean, I think, you know, we end in a worse place than
where we started, don't we?
Because now the Dominions on this side, in the Gamma Quadrant, and
it's a part of one of the major powers in the galaxy.
And so, so having some ludicrous plot that they could easily
thwart and feel good about at the end of episode 2 is a great plan
and it works really well.
The one thing that we're missing at this point, and it's only
because Jeffrey Coombs isn't back yet, and he will be back in
about 5 or 6 episodes time, is that we're not seeing any of this
from the Dominion point of view, which is what we get a lot going
ahead.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I love I love all that stuff because it just means Jeffrey
Coombe's being camp and wonderful.
It's so great, isn't it?
The Romulans, so predictably treacherous.
It's so funny.
Like those scenes.
It's wonderful that they, I think I've said this before, that
those scenes are so camp and so silly and so funny that without
undermining the threat, like without making the Dominion
ridiculous.
I think it's really good.
It's deftly done.
So we are coming up to war finding out now that he's going to have
to, you know, fight one Jem Hadar after another.
In the prison.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's basically what he does for the entire 2nd episode.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so that gives us some like action and stuff like that.
Um, so what has happened?
I can't remember what when Taine and like Taine doesn't want to
speak to Garak or something like that?
I know, because he thought Garak would come in.
Charging the light brigade and saving it.
Oh, okay.
And so he's annoyed that he just got captured and he isn't doing
anything.
Yeah.
And I know you and I talked, um, off Mike about Tame's death
scene.
And it, yeah, of course, they're always a bitch.
But I do like, it's, I think what salvages it is what how Andy
Robinson plays it.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
He refuses the riding.
He refuses it to be utterly schmaltzy. when he goes, Garrett, come
here.
And Garrett just goes, I'm listening.
But I do like the fact as well that Tane, he does throw him a bone
but it's a pretty small bone, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's funny.
It's like it was the only day.
Yes, that was the day.
It was the early day.
I love the I also like too, that he gets to say it in the presence
of Julian.
Like, and I think that that's super important because in a way it
doesn't really happen, if it just happens to Garak, and Tame
dies.
He doesn't survive the conversation.
And so I think that that is really pretty good.
And I do think that he plays it pretty well.
Like he doesn't get sentimental and he's kind of impatient more
than anything else.
It's just like, come on, you're going to die, just this once.
Can we just admit it?
You know, um.
Well, I mean, I mean, I, you know, I have a fairly fractious
relationship with my dad.
I imagine this is what the death says bed scene would be like, you
know, right?
You just tell me how you feel about it before you pop your blogs
you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sometimes men just can't talk to each other in a way that they
probably should.
Yeah.
I like, don't die here.
I like, don't die here, escape, live, you know.
I think all of that stuff is, that's pretty great.
I like Bashir's reaction when he says a father to his son because
he's like the audience going, what?
Oh, yeah.
Well, that's it.
And I think that's why he has to be here.
It's a clever choice.
I like the fact that Garak allows himself like a moment of just a
moment of emotion and then he gets up, takes a breath and goes
right, let's get out of here.
But it is one of those hilarious cheesy Star Trek backstory things
that we make fun of, you know, that that Kurtzman Trek makes fun
of.
It's like he kept falling off his riding hound and blah, you know
like, Jesus Christ.
It's somewhat tempered by the fact that he says, I should have
killed your mother before you were born.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, he's a truly terrible person, which is pretty great.
Well, we find out later on, don't we?
The Tame, the reason why Gareth's got claustrophobia is Tame used
to lock him up in a cupboard.
Right, yeah.
Teach him a lesson.
I mean, it sounds like a, he's not, you know, we need something.
He's a terrible person.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, she's kind of a terrible person as well.
Yes, here we go.
You know, you know, this is just to remind us.
This is still not his trek.
It's still 90 Star Trek.
I love how Cardassians have riding hounds, though.
I think that's a great, that's a great choice.
So they've got big giant dogs on Cardassia that you can ride
around.
The wonderful thing about Garrett getting up and saying, right
let's go. is it's almost like going, right, that plot's done
with.
Let's get this one done with as well now.
Yeah, I think it's, I think it's good.
I do think that, like, this episode works even if Tain's not
here.
Do you know what I mean?
He's only here for the purpose of this scene.
He's not really that crucial to the plot.
He could easily have motivated and they've just not been here, you
know, or...
Kardassian, you know?
Gold Messet or something.
It could have been the one in the prison sending out the
Cardassian signals.
Yeah, or he just, you know, like if, you know, is it Dooley, Paul
Dooley, is that his day?
Oh, that would have been available.
Imagine that. sending out the signals.
He's going through the whole, you know, the whole rigmarole of, you
know, getting them there and everything and it turns out they're
ex-lovers.
Oh, God.
Oh, Gull of Eck.
Remember him from the voyage, I think.
I'm thinking of Gullivic, you know.
He's the only Cardassian, know, that's vaguely handsome.
Yeah, well, isn't Gulma set, isn't that Mark Alimo as well?
Is that who he is?
Oh, when he was wearing the S&M game?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The sort of Beaumont coat hangers.
Yes, exactly.
And the trouble is now is we're only dealing with all of our
established races in this episode.
So unfortunately, the Beau Moscow is out.
Yeah, yeah.
I have to say that there is Chekhov's brain as well.
Like I was just spending, because it's been a while since I've
seen this, but I was spending the entire kind of last episode and
half going.
So when does the Breen just pull a gun and kill someone and of
course we're not disappointed.
Which I think that's what I think makes a bit of a mockery of when
people said when the Broom was pulled in in series 7.
Well, where they come from?
And actually, they're in return to grace in series four.
They in this.
They make a couple of appearances.
Oh, here we go.
They're shooting the beams into the wormhole. into the wormhole.
The thing explodes.
Gosh, that guy doesn't seem very disturbed.
I guess it's an engineer.
That looks great.
There you go.
There's some special effects for me.
Oh, no.
Someone sabotaged the emitter array.
Yep.
Who could that have been, do you think?
And do you know what I love at the end of this?
They did the best of both worlds things.
That big dramatic sting of music at the end.
Yeah, here we go.
Here we go.
This is our big, that's a great shot, isn't it?
Well, because then it just feels like that's it.
Things are changed forever.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's a big proper thing and it's the sort of thing
they're not just going to walk back.
It's like something big is happening.
We know how this show works now.
And so it's not going to be okay in like next week's episode.
And it's one of the few times as well that they say to the
orchestra, right, come on, we want a big dramatic sting.
It's like, do it done.
Dun, dun, dun, dun.
You know what I mean?
I mean, it's still fairly terrible music this week and I still
get...
I must have told you there was a, we got a Nintendo Wii, and there
was a Star Trek game with it, and I'm pretty sure that all of the
music for it was procedurally generated, like it was just written
by a computer, and at 90 Star Trek music, like it just captured it
absolutely perfectly.
And I still kind of think that even with that big sting, it was
still pretty wallpapery, the music.
And nowhere near as good as what we got in Scorpion.
So great.
I still think that's a fabulous cliffhanger, though.
Because when I 1st saw this, this was when, this is how old I am.
This is when the VHSs were coming out with 2 stories, 2 episodes
per VHS.
I remember this very well.
And I got this one.
It was for the uniform, amazing Cisco episode, melodramatic as
hell.
And then in Purgatory Shadow.
I was like, great, big arc episode.
And then it ended with that.
All those shit's pouring out of a wormhole.
I looked at my mother and I went, Have I got away a month to see
the end of this?
I was there at W8 Smith's the day that that next video came out.
I pulled a sickie, I seemed to remember, and I was there at 9
o'clock to grab the VHS so I could get home and we could watch it
together.
Brilliant.
All right, so what do you think?
start again?
After that, Cliffhanger.
I am ready to go.
Okay, yeah, we won't make you wait a month this time.
All right, I'm going to count you in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
I'll just say something for the, um, the hideously melodramatic
titles of this 2 parter in Purgatory Shadow and buy Inferno's
Light.
Yeah, it's really full on, isn't it?
Because it really doesn't have anything to do with anything that's
actually going on.
The only shadows in that 1st episode are in that Dominion prison.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, and the usual ones are on the station as well, because there's
quite nice lighting here.
Yes.
So we have to catch up with everybody now, don't we?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we did have, um, we did have, uh, um, Ducart kind of warning us
that something is going to happen big at the end as well, the
things are going to change on Cardassia thing that he gives to.
Yeah.
I do like his line as well.
I don't have time to explain, all right?
You're going.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. that's pretty good I'm not allowed to drop
this twist until episode two.
That set could have been so much more boring than it is.
It really is good.
The set where the ring is. you know, where the fights take place.
And, you know, they mat in those windows and stuff above it.
And they do give it a sense of scale.
It is, like, it seems like it's weirdly in the corner of a room
but I think it looks really good.
It could have been...
I like the sort of upturned jam jars that they've got with lights
in them going all around the circle, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think it looks really good.
And that thing too, like you hit the, you hit the thing to say
that you want to keep going.
That's really good because it makes Wharf's decision much more
palpable each time.
It's not just that he's struggling to get up.
It's like he's getting the shit beaten out of him.
Then he presses the button to indicate that he wants to keep going
whether he can do it or not.
It's very clever, I think.
And may I say, he's been through some shit, but he shows some
insurance in this episode.
May I regale you with a quote from Robert Hewitt Wolves?
Yes, please.
I have something to say about the twist, which is about to hear.
And that is the Dominion ships have come pouring through the
wormhole and they're about to head off to Cardassia with
Goldjakar.
Yeah, yeah.
And uh, Robert Hewitt Wolf says that this was based on a depiction
of the economically depressed, uh, sorry, I'll start that again.
He based an depiction of an economically depressed Cardassia on
the brink of cultural collapse on the Weimar?
Weimar.
Thank you.
The government of Germany between the 2 world wars.
The Dominion's takeover of the Kardashian Union was likewise
inspired by the Angelus, where the Austrian National Socialist
Party, after gaining control of that country's government invited
Nazi Germany to send in their military forces and effectively
absorbed the country.
Yeah, you might remember that from the sound of music.
So, seriously.
It does get a mention.
So, you know, that's the thing about the politics here too.
Like we had very sort of Cold War politics, didn't we, in original
Star Trek?
Here they kind of cherry pick around things that are happening in
the middle of the 20th century.
And, you know, Cardassia and Bajor could be any number of
different kind of things.
And I think that's really interesting and it does give it a kind
of texture and a little bit of sort of reality.
It's why it touches home for a lot of viewers.
You know, I know there are Star Trek fans that have suffered in
conflicts that have found some of the subjects they probe into
quite moving.
Yeah.
So what I think is great, what I think is really good is we just
had an incredible cliffhanger, which is that visual cliffhanger
and then we find out what it means, and we go into the opening
credits, like, this is a much bigger deal than just a whole bunch
of ships have appeared.
What I was expecting was a, you know, a big battle now.
Yeah, yeah, you know, station versus ships that we got in Way of
the Warrior.
And I think when I was younger, I was a little bit disappointed.
As an adult, I think this is far more, especially when you've got
your cart delivering the information and saying lines like, you
and me on the same side, major, it never felt quite right, did
it?
I think too, one of the great things he said, we'll see this at
the end of the episode because Cisco will get to speak to him.
And because Cisco knows him, it does add a little bit of a thing
because Cisco has sort of personal contempt for him and isn't
afraid to express that even though he's, you know, a high-ranking
member of the Cardassian government all of a sudden.
Ira Bear is quoted, heroes saying, Dukat is a self-deluded
opportunistic, egomaniacal sadist.
In other words, he is the Richard Nixon of Deep Space Mind.
He'll...
He will do whatever it takes to come out on top. including selling
out his own people because the decision he makes now is what wipes
out 100s of 1000000s of Cardassians in the last episode.
Yeah.
What is it?
Damar says, the dominion of invaded Kardashia without firing a
single shot.
Because I just start using them as cannon fodder.
Yeah.
Yeah, and in fact, that's what I think is a makes him turning into
sort of crazed par wraith, you know, like science fiction guy, a
little bit disappointing at the end.
It's a little bit too crap for someone who's been a lot more
interesting, I think, than that.
There's the brain sitting there in the foreground of the shot.
Chekhov's brain, just waiting to kill someone at some point.
Sassy Romulan.
She gets that line later, doesn't she?
Where she goes, my people have a saying.
Never turn your back on a breed.
Now, I am slightly claustrophobic myself.
I can't really do berry contained spaces.
And so I empathise with Garrett completely.
Now, Andy Robinson is quoted as saying they genuinely shoved him
in a very tight space, so there was no acting involved in these
scenes whatsoever.
Well, in fact, I really like the physicality too.
Like the fact that we see quite often that you've got that thing
that you pry the small panel off with.
You reach in there and then you bring out the big panel and
there's a whole, like we know what's required.
We know how this is sort of set up and we kind of know what the
stakes are if he's discovered.
But I just think it's all just very well established, how this all
works.
Do you know how this was originally conceived?
This was conceived as they wanted to do the Great Escape.
So they wanted characters in prison trying to get out.
And originally it was a Michael Eddington story until our bear
turned around and he went, I don't think anybody is convinced that
Michael Eddington is a good guy.
So I'm not sure we can do it.
And so they went down this room.
And you're right, there is that kind of 2 pronged attempt to
escape from this.
It is a very physical show this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, you see that shot?
like the establishing shot with that crowd of people, the crowd of
um, of, Jem'Hadar hanging around there and other prisoners and
stuff.
I love this world, isn't it?
All the Cardassians looking at each other like, what is he
saying?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's time for you to go home.
He says, I hope you enjoy your time as Dominion citizens or
something like that.
Congratulations on your new status, he says.
There you go That Jemhadar's makeup, not Jemhadar, the vort is
makeup is really shit.
It's so bad.
And you know, whilst I will always prefer to see Jeffrey Coons
because he's brilliant.
I think this guy does pretty well.
He's still very camp and a bit silly, isn't he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but he does look super weird.
I think I'm not sure the makeup is really working for some
reason.
I do like it's everyone except and these scenes too.
So these scenes where he's on the big screen.
And look at that city.
Like, don't you think, like, it looks like a European city?
There's a river running through the middle of it and a big old
bridge and then we've got this.
We've got those sort of stupid spike things, you know, heading
into the sky, which kind of, I don't know, they're reminiscent of
the pylons on Deep Space 9.
Is that it?
Oh, it's Cardassian architecture?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I just love.
I just love how this is working on so many levels.
That camera pulled back there.
I was giving this speech, right?
And you've got Kira giving him death eyes because of all their
history.
You got Cisco like, I should have killed him all those times.
And then you've got the Bashir changeling, just giving his evil
smile in the background.
I'm like, there's a lot going on here, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I just think I think the decision to have the Dominion come
into the alpha quadrant and initially take a political approach
and try and absorb just like the Federation, absorb in all of the
great powers was such a savvy move.
Well, I think, you know, the word dominion, you know, and
federation, they're both just sort of abstract English nouns.
Federation is like a group of people who have joined together with
a treaty, a dominion is something that's ruled by someone.
Dominion sounds a bit more sinister, does it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think it's really good.
But you know what it does?
It leads to those scenes with Kai Winn, in the cars, where they're
trying to convince the Bajorans to come in, you know, and you've
got to win and win and Weyune squaring up to each other.
Oh, look at Julian looking sinister.
Time for another round of blood screenings.
He does look super handsome in prison, doesn't he, where he's
roughed up a bit and he's got a little bit of a bit.
I mean, I think sort of latter-day Bashir is very funny.
Yeah, yeah, no, he is. sort of youthful sort of way.
Lovely olive skin he's got.
Oh, I do like the fact that he's the one that says as well.
Well, look, we've got to change the infiltrator.
I agree.
About to around the tests.
Yeah, and what does he do?
He just sort of fakes a test or fucks it up or something like
that.
Do we find out that they can pass the test?
They can absorb some blood and pass the test?
Ever since Joseph Sisco cut himself off on that knife in the
kitchen when they're trying to force him to do the test and he
goes, look, they're only one test that's smart man and can't think
his way around.
I think we've acknowledged, yeah, they can...
Yeah.
And we know that they can now in latter day Star Trek, I think.
I love his I love this.
It's like, um, you know, this would have been a perfect kind of
torture chamber with the occasional electric shocks and things.
It's pretty good.
Random electric shucks.
And he's playing funny initially, and then it only becomes clear
how serious he is.
And I'm not sure that I buy.
There's a very, very long conversation he has with himself, which
is sort of cheesy and not particularly realistic.
No, that's right.
Only on TV.
Usually in soap operas, in fact.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And I mean, it does what it does.
It's like, you know, here's what he's thinking and it does it sort
of fairly efficiently, which is why they resort to it, I think.
And it gives Andrew Robinson some acting opportunities as well.
I think I just, I do want to point out the plot inconsistency of
the Jem'Hadar leaving the runabout, in orbit, outside the
facility.
Yeah, they should.
And they enabled it, all to escape.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And the way that DS9 gloriously brings that up next season where
they accuse Julian Bashira being a Dominion spy because, oh
really?
They just happened to leave that runabout in orbit outside the...
They've looked over and have gone, oh, I can't believe we did
that.
We got to bring that up again.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, that's the thing. that's the thing that they do They're
responding to what they do. and they're watching it the way that
you know, fans watch it.
It's how Russell approached Doctor Who.
You know, like he saw things in the show that he didn't
necessarily realise he was putting in there and then responded to
it.
And that's what, you know, Ronald D. Moore in particular, but
clearly Ira Bear, too.
That's how they, you know, write.
That's how they make TV.
It's so good.
So good.
I really love.
Oh, hang on a minute.
Sorry, I was about to say what I really love, but I'm so entranced
by the lighting.
I don't usually get to say complimentary things about how
dramatically lit these things are.
Deep say signs usually not too bad.
And this, I think, you know, they bring it down, don't they?
It's not so much the flat sort of hotel lighting. exactly.
Voyager.
But those sort of decorative, whatever the fuck they are, you know
the diagonal pipes.
Like they look really good.
They make the shot really interesting.
Is this Beaumont as well?
No, this is someone else?
Lando, I think this is...
It's still, like, I think the directors that they had, the
established directors that were doing the quieter episodes
responded really well later on when they were actually given some
exciting stuff to shoot.
I want to talk about Wolf.
Okay?
Because I think Wolf came onto DS9 and it, whilst he got some good
stuff in series four, I never forget him, you know, smoking away
on that cigar in Arman Bashir and things like that.
Um, I think it did take him a little while to settle.
I think come series 5 after Let He, who is without sin.
They've really learned how to write him for this show now, a bit
more complex with relationships with people.
And I just think he comes across, like you said, he's often
written as the character that's wrong.
And that is still often the case.
Yeah.
I just think that he's written for so much better here than he was
back in his TNG days.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, because it's a different show, you know, it's a different
type of show, and it's a show where fundamentally as we saw, you
know, last time people are their jobs and there's not, there's
often not a lot more to it than that.
And so here he gets scope to do much more interesting things, I
think.
I think maybe maybe in DS 9 people are their jobs and their
relationships.
Well, I think their relationship's more than that.
I think the jobs are less important.
I mean, still, it's Constable Odo made a major Kira.
You know, like they have names that are their jobs, but still, you
know.
I just, I love the fact that he, I think he would continue to
fight anyway, because that's his, that's his thing, you know, and
he's a man of well and he, he would never turn away from a fight.
But the fact that he allows himself to be beaten to essentially a
bloody pulp by the end of the episode to give Garak time to get
them onto the runabout.
I just think he comes across so well in this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he looks great at the end.
There is that moment where the 2 of them again paying off the
scene from episode one.
Just look at each other and say, well done.
And it's like it's there's, it's a no bullshit thing.
Like it feels really real.
I thought it was a really a really well-done scene in a very kind
of minor way.
Like there wasn't, you know, it's not flashy or anything, but it
just does the job.
I think it was really good.
I did notice in this scene.
No, I think this is interesting, isn't it?
Because she hates Ducant.
But Zial doesn't.
Um, And like this scene, I'm not quite sure what's happening.
I think it's really good.
Like, she just gets to make a moral claim.
And I think that claim is right, you know, you can't judge people
by what they think or say, but only what they do.
Um, And like her response is really good.
Like she doesn't quite know what to think of it.
Like she goes a bit wide-eyed and stuff, you know.
I like it when she says, you think my father's evil?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, and Kira's close to her.
So she knows she's got to play this sensitively.
She can't lie.
Brilliantly, in sons and daughters, in the ark, in seriously, when
uh, Siao comes back to the station, and Kira and Dukat are both
looking after it, and she started to play them as like parents, and
then, and that whole relationship is so interesting.
And then Kira suddenly looks herself in the mirror when Dekout's
given her gifts going, what the hell am I doing?
She actually says it out loud.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
I remember that.
Oh, here's oh, yes, Robert O'Reilly.
He's bad.
He's so good Essentially, he is only here.
One to tie up the Klingon plot in a very anticlimactic speech of
just going, all right, well, Dominion's a bigger threat than us.
So that's it.
But I mean, it was kind of because it was revealed that, um, the
you know, that the changelings were behind the war.
Wasn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
The clue one more.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Martox whispering in Garon's ear the whole time.
Yeah, yeah.
And then Garon's the one over, what I loved about that was
remember when I watched it and I'm going, Jesus, Garon's over the
top in Way of the Warrior in a brilliant way, don't get me wrong
in a very watchable way.
And then when they revealed it was a changer, I'm like, okay
that's why he's out of character.
Then then when they revealed he wasn't a changing.
Well, he's just a terrible he's a terrible ham then, isn't he?
I love Gowron.
Yeah, he's great. isn't he?
Just remember him being introduced.
You know, and he was sort of so weird and leering, and you had the
choice between Durant, who we knew, was responsible for Worf's
this commendation.
And then we had Garon, who just looked like this at her weird
boggle eyes. skullhead guy.
And it's kind of like, God, what if he becomes leader of the
Klingon Empire?
It's so good.
If you're going to do that whole figurehead of an entire planet
then give them some personality, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, he ends up being great in next gen as well as here.
Oh, I love all this.
Look, but she is doing something sinister in the runabout.
Yeah.
Whilst all this mad sort of galactic politicking is going on, he's
behind the scenes doing his little machinations.
So this is introducing his absurd plot, and that was just that
quiet wordless scene, which isn't explained, but reminds us to be
suspicious of him.
You know what, Bill, I love, though, is where he's knocked out all
the ensigns on the runabout and he's doing the woman's voice.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's great.
It's super weird.
Like, it's properly weird.
And, of course, he killed them all.
He hasn't knocked them out.
He's killed all of them because otherwise it wouldn't be okay for
us to blow up the ship, right?
So they're all dead.
Like, I think that's pretty great.
This might say something about me, you know, but I find Warf
weirdly hot when he's having all these fights.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
When they're beating the shit out of him.
I find it very hot.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What's that all about?
I love the ribs thing.
Like, I love Julian.
Like this song, the song.
This is really fun.
This thing.
It's like a cheesy thing.
You know, they all write songs of us.
So I think, does Martoc say that?
And it's kind of like, yes, you know, we'll sing a song about
this.
And then you can be in the song and you'll be the brave doctor who
um, um, you know, patches him up and sends him back into battle.
And and Garrett goes, actually, um, I don't want to be the
Cardassian, who kind of shat himself and didn't do anything in
this song.
So I'll go back and like do the thing, which I think is really
good.
So this is the monologue, which is where we are now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What I will say is, um, Ira Bear and Robert Hewitt Wolf.
Now, they've been writing together now for 3 years since season 3
and they're doing all the biggies, improbable cause, the dice cast
Way of the Warrior.
They're doing all the big sort of 2 parters.
And Ira Bear said, at this point, we were basically so in tune and
we knew these characters so well.
We'd come in and we would bash out a whole act a day.
I think that's quite fast in television terms.
Do you want to hear something funny?
This was the 1st episode where Robert Hewitt Wolf.
Sorry, this was the 2nd episode where Robert Hewitt Wolf got his
name first, and Ira Bear was second. because Ira Bear was the
older experienced writer.
Robert Hewitt was quite a young man.
He was a young sort of whippersnapper.
And Arabia is like, you know, how dare you?
you know, like you, you young, you petuous youth, you know.
And then, of course, he did it.
He said, fine. will every other episode will put your name first.
And guess what happened?
What?
The 1st one was let he who is without sin.
See where that really, you go, that really backfired.
I'm hanging to see that again.
I might watch that again, because, I mean, it's got Vanessa
Williams in it, for God's sake.
Like that's pretty amazing.
Oh, no, it is as bad as you...
Although, do you know, I'm so pleased with doing this after those
2 dreary episodes we watched before.
It's lovely to be infused like this.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Oh, I did like this, the way he's sort of like...
Oh, that shot, too.
Like that shot from above is very odd, isn't it?
Like, we don't go back to that shot.
That's, you know, something.
Like, I like him going in and kind of fishing him out.
Um, but the bit that I really, really like is when we get, um, like
he says that he's going to go back in and Martok and Worf agree
that that's an incredibly brave thing to do, that that's an
impressively brave thing to do.
And it would have been easy for, you know, you could have just
easy, just as easily said, um, you know, being scared of things
like that as a massive, you know, is terrible cowardice and
dishonourable and embarrassing.
But they don't do that.
You know, the writers choose to make him make them properly
appreciate what courage is.
I think it's really good.
It's something we said before about wharf and DSI.
They can make him act like a twat.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They can give him great moments.
Do you remember when he apologised to Orcan O'Brien and Bashir in
Shadows and Cymbals?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They're giving really, really great moments to go.
Find him.
Yeah, and we should be behind him sometimes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Let's check out that lift.
It's pretty good.
So is she wearing that outfit because she's come back to work
after being pregnant?
She's still got her baby weight.
Yeah, this is only a couple episodes later.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I like it.
I think it looks really good.
She was so annoyed, you know.
She went, can you believe it?
You know, this baby, I couldn't get to be in the trible episode.
So every time there's a fun episode after this, she's like, you
give me a good part.
That's why she's on that piano singing fever.
Right. wonderful.
That's so great.
So sexy.
Yeah, I know.
Such a great song too.
Oh, this is Cisco and Ducat.
This is always great.
I love this scene.
Is this a bit where he says, I'm going to give you the opportunity
now, because you and I have had some encounters in the past.
So you get off that station before we come.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I love the, I love the, he tells him off of just calling him
Ducart and not using a title.
I'm head of the government.
He says I don't recognise the government.
It's so good.
It's so great And he's just not willing to play along at all or
just take any of his shit, you know.
But is this is this all gloating?
Or is he genuinely trying to say get out of there because that
device is going to go off?
No.
Oh, yeah, okay.
No, I don't think so.
Well, they have.
I mean, they have shared a lot of episodes before this where they
have work together and developed a lot of friendship, but a
record.
Does he even know about that?
Oh, that's a good point.
I don't know.
I, like it might, we might find out that he does, but he may not.
And it is kind of a bit trivial.
It never really goes anywhere.
It's not super important for anything other than just to be a
climax to this episode.
Maybe he doesn't know.
Where he says everything that was Cardassian will be reclaiming.
Yeah, including...
I'm going to take the station from you and they do.
I'm going to wipe out the marquee and they do.
So all these promises he makes, he delivers.
I like I like Cisco's comeback, which is, oh, really, Cardassian?
I thought it was built by Bajoran slave labour, which is a
particularly good line for him to deliver.
I think.
That's really great.
You're welcome to try.
And then he hangs up on him.
So good.
And then they pay off this scene, don't they?
in the last scene.
Where Dakart's like, ah, well, you saw through our little plan.
Did you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I made, but they do specifically say, you know, like wars come in
and Cisco says, well, we'll see about tomorrow, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, no, I think like and like they hold off for a little bit, but
I think that that's really good, like just having the Dominion
nearby, you know, as part of the the quadrant.
Because, I mean, that's the thing that this show creates, isn't
it?
It's like a quadrant that has Klingons and Romulans and Breen and
Cardassians and stuff and they're the major powers.
You know, you get a hint of that in TNG.
Can you see why this season impacted me so much?
Because this is where it was just all shifting in such an exciting
way.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, like discovery changes its premise
all the time.
It's done that over and over again.
Um, and I think that it has a fair bit in common with Deep Space
9.
Like, I think, you know, Strangely Worlds is the Star Trek, the
next generation discoveries approach to just telling an ongoing
story, which changes and is from time to time a bit of a mess. like
owes something to Deep Space 9, I think.
Yeah.
But like in the same breath of sort of all the shifts happening.
You were getting episodes like trials and tribulations, rapture
for the uniform, children of time in the world.
There's such a lot going on.
Like they've got so many things going.
It's like for the uniform thing, it's like, 0 yeah, we've got
Eddington.
We can do an Eddington episode amidst all of this.
It's pretty great.
Oh, you remember that one?
Rebecca.
He's not coming.
We'll never forget.
So good. great.
He's Julian doing some low level.
Don't you know?
I love Brian's reaction at the end.
He goes, are you telling me I've been hanging out with a
changeling for a month?
It's pretty great, isn't it?
He says that he knew or something or that, like, he was super
annoying or, you know, less good at dance or something or
something.
Oh, dear.
Yeah, see, he's doing his terrible evil acting.
It's so bad.
It's just sort of like the emotions drained from the performance
you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it is, I just keep thinking of the passenger.
In contrast.
No, because in the passenger, who's doing that very English...
Not at all, gentlemen, I've been expecting you more.
Terrible.
But I think it does contrast well because I think Arbashire, our
membership, is more naturalistic than ever.
And I really think he's gotten under the skin of the character at
this point.
You go back to series one and he's a bit annoying, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I think they kind of retool him a little bit.
This is this is quartz contractual obligations soon, but I do love
his lines.
Do you know what?
My business propositions are not great.
This is funny.
I think this is really funny and it's making fun of both the
Jemhadar and the changelings because they're stupid science
fiction people who don't drink, eat, or have sex.
And then, see, all's comeback is so great.
For all we know, the vorder of sex maniacs, we drink all the
time.
I just thought that's such a funny line coming from ZR and it
cheers quite up immediately.
It's really good.
Like, it serves to make fun of the science fiction premise of the
show at the same time as African.
And it gives him he's good. as well.
Yeah, it's good.
Yeah, really great.
Actually, see how does get the odd moment like that, you know?
Yeah, well, it's super likeable.
It's like she's the one who cheers Quark up, which is great.
And again, you know, it's setting us up for some upsetting things
at the beginning of the next season.
Oh, look here.
So the chinks are happening here.
The vorta's going, like, is he mad?
Doesn't he ever tire this?
Yeah, yeah.
Is looking at war with total admiration?
And he goes, no, I never tire of it.
Yep.
Yeah, yeah.
It's it's properly good.
No, here it's made clear that the 2 of them are alike and and...
Yes.
Like the 2 of them are the same and they share something that the
vorta doesn't, that he's got more in common with warf than that he
does with the vorta.
And I do, I think there was some genuine suspension as we keep
cutting back to the cell and Garak.
The only thing that marred it for me was I thought the Gemadar
were a bit thick at times.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
When he goes, sir, I have this tool.
You deserve to be killed, mate.
I kind of like this too.
So Tane built this, didn't he?
And he built it.
Like out of like the, like some completely unrelated system and
turned it into a communicator, which I think is pretty great.
It does take a long time for him to rewire it, doesn't it?
Yeah, well, yeah, Cardassians are very convoluted, you know?
Oh no, I mean, they kind of sell it, I think, in the explanation.
And this is so, it's so clear what the stakes are.
It's obvious what's going on.
Like, it doesn't need a lot of stupid kind of exposition or
anything like that.
We just understand this perfectly, I think.
Wow, you just got ploughed right in the face.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that's one thing I do like about the Gemadai.
They are a bit vicious.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, they, you know?
Do you know, you remember they've got those weapons with the
enormous blades?
I mean, there are scenes where you see them like slicing bases and
stabbing people and...
Well, you know, very PG kind of way.
But it's nice to have...
You root, think of an alien racing TNG that was sort of
viscerally...
Yeah, yeah.
I can't think of one.
Well, what about what about the Videans in Voyager?
You say that.
I do think that's a great idea, the particular harvesting organs.
Yeah, yeah.
They're a little bit like Borg, but...
Because they're portrayed as victims.
We don't quite get the horror element, right?
you know?
Yeah, no, it's kind of a bit too gross.
There we go.
Look, Kira's off to the defiance.
Take charge.
Yeah, woo hoo.
And deploy the runabouts, and here's the runabouts hero scene.
Deploy the runabouts.
I love it.
How many have we got?
We've got two.
Four, I think, mentioned in dialogue.
Okay.
I mean they do manage to assemble quite a fleet in the end, don't
they?
The Yukon, the Rio Grande, the Volga.
Oh, maybe it's only 3 and now he's, yeah.
And so he has killed all of them.
We can't show blood or anything like that.
It just looks like they've passed out.
But I think they have to be dead so that we can blow up the ship.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I thought, you know what?
I don't care how tacky the idea is that they're gonna put a bomb
into the sun.
Yeah, I didn't 1st watch this.
It was the most exciting idea. awesome.
No, no, I think it's really great. but I do think that it doesn't
go...
Oh, far out.
Can I just say that when I saw the Romulan Warbirds uncloak, it
just struck me how incredibly great those warbirds look.
And do you remember, like, they 1st appear at the end of series
one of Star Trek, the Next Generation?
Oh, the Neutral Zion.
And they look magnificent.
They look so good.
And, uh, and, you know, the ship design in this show in all of the
Star Trek has been just tremendous, like we were praising the
JemHadar cockroach ships.
What's great is when you get to like sacrifice of angels, you've
got all those different designs of ships and they're weaving in
and out and there's laser beams everywhere.
Now we just missed a self-sealing, self-sealing stem bolt
reference from Julian, who says...
Yeah, yeah.
So that that weird thing that he uses to open the panel.
He says, well, either it's a self-sealing, self-sealing stemble.
I can't even say it.
So good.
There we go.
I think that is one of the most absurd running jokes because they
do mention them several times.
It's really fun, isn't it?
It's so good.
But it just makes me happy about that fun B plot.
Like it was progress, you know, way back in series one that
adorable.
Stop defeat, Nathan.
They don't forget anything on the show, no. which is great.
Except Star Trek.
Except the things that they should forget about.
Yeah, they don't mention the Meridian planet again.
No, no.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
Or, you know, Luaxander Troy is love the virus.
Yeah.
Yes.
And there is, there is, um, some energy to these fights.
I thought they were really well choreographed.
And I can't tell that there's a stunt double involved.
Yeah, well, they've all got big heaps of latex on them.
It's hard to tell.
It's not like the...
Well, you say that.
You say that, but you go and watch tacking into the wind where
Gowron dies and it's very clear for most of that sequence, so it
is not what works.
Right, okay.
It's the eyes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. fair enough.
So he's still in there, isn't he?
Yeah.
It's just dark.
Oh here we go.
Yeah, brain. there you go And then she, but then we get, Yes, the
brain gets very quickly and I think she gets killed, doesn't she?
And then Bashir stabs a Jemadar in the neck.
The neck, that occurred to me is a thing too.
It's kind of like, woo hoo, okay.
I think that was the one that hate him in the face, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, good.
Trying to work in here.
I know I know what you're saying about PG-13.
There isn't any blood or anything like that, but it is violent.
I do like all that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And there's a bit of blood.
Like we get a bit of blood on wharf space and this is really kind
of full on.
And like, we have to assume that, oh, see this.
Do you know what I mean?
Like giving the character a way of indicating that he's not going
to give up the fight.
And I really, I like the speech. like I really like that Jem'adar
speech.
It's the, it's, it's, I can't beat him, all I can do is kill him
and that no longer holds my interest, and I think that's so good.
And, you know, they're these sort of weird ass clone, genetically
engineered, whatever the hell they are.
But they're the only kind of moral people in the Dominion, despite
all the viciousness.
They're the only ones who have some kind of ethos.
Every now again.
They bring in a Jem'Hadar character.
Do you remember the one in series 2 is trying to cure that one
legion of Jemadar of addiction to the white?
And then in series 6 rocks and shoals, you've got the one who
knows that if he sends his men into that canyon, that Cisco's
going to kill them all and he does it anyway because that's what
his program.
But every and again, they have a really interesting Gemadark. he's
one of them.
Yeah.
Oh, the Romulan escaped.
I'm glad about that because she helped.
She can, I don't know, what she does.
She's.
And we retroactively pretend that that is Senator, Senator
Cretac.
That would have been great.
I was just thinking about her.
She could be a little playmate for Senator Gretag.
She was gay, wouldn't she?
Well, clearly.
No, she was from the late...
So now we think, whoa, the plot's over, you know?
escaped from the prison?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's right.
And so this is this is the climax because we need a win.
I love this, though, because this is like, right, we want to do a
space battle, but we can't afford it yet.
So sorry, it's like, well, we're getting signals from all over the
place.
And there's nothing on the screen.
Yeah, I think too, that they're wise to kind of hold their fire on
that, you know, like that that letting us anticipate that battle.
Like, let's not blow it instantly.
We've already seen heaps of Gemadar ships, you know, pouring into
the quadrant through the wormhole.
We don't need to see them this week, I think.
Let's hold off on that. comes to it in a call to arms.
It's not a decent moment.
And then they do the same thing again.
They hold back from showing a battle throughout those whole 6
episodes and then in sacrifice of angels.
They just go to town.
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty, yeah.
That's pretty awesome.
There is something about enticing your audience and not giving
them everything up from.
Yeah, I think so too.
Well, I remember some reviews at the time were people saying they
really expected to see a battle here and they were a bit gussier.
They didn't get it.
No, I think it's better.
I think it is absolutely better to just have them hanging around
in the quadrant, you know, like rather than on the other side of
the wormhole, have the mercy among us.
Don't you love this bit in a 2nd where she's like, inside a solar
system?
Well if we don't, there won't be a solar system left.
I like that too.
And it sort of establishes, so we can't do warp in the gravity
well of a star, you know, we have to use impulse to get out.
That was always kind of the idea.
And so let's remind us of that and then how urgent it is and
stuff.
And the modifications to the Yukon, yeah, so that was what we saw
Julian doing.
That was the 1st thing that we actually saw Evil Julian doing.
Here we go.
And then you get this wonderful cartoony shot of the defiant
dashing into the sun, grabbing the runabout and then flinging it
off the air.
So good.
It's so good.
I actually think, have they, like, these visuals are much more
interesting.
They are cartoony.
Look how cartoony that is.
But these visuals are much, much more interesting, I think, than
they have done in the past with computer stuff.
Gee whiz, that looks like, that's pretty great.
That is pretty great.
Yeah, you're right.
It is super cartoony though.
Yeah, maybe, yeah.
Let's be honest, it is a bit of a cartoon, that plot at this
point.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's really fun.
And it is only, like, it only takes up a very little amount of
time, but it absolutely has to be. yeah here we go.
It absolutely has to be there.
Otherwise, we don't get a win.
Okay, I did object to this one a little bit with Cisco going.
Yes, it was all an elaborate trap.
The signals were fake.
All right.
We've been fucking paying attention.
All right.
Thanks.
Without ever firing a shut.
Whoa.
Now, look, he gets away with it because he's Avery Brooks and he
can say anything.
I'm again, we'll have to wait for another day is pretty cheesy
too.
Oh, I like this little payoff, though, where she gives a little
piss.
Yes, that is actually nice, isn't it?
I kind of wished it was, I mean, maybe it's a, uh, yeah.
It's never romantic, though.
They never have a relationship.
Yeah, no, I guess not.
But it is a little bit too like that, though, I think.
Well, it's very strange.
Instead of going down the Bashir Garak route, which is the obvious
one, is they start going down the O'Brien Bashiro, in episode, in
series 7, they're always hanging out together in their spare time
and there's even a scene where Bashir says to O'Brien, look, I
love mole.
No, sorry.
I love Ezri, but I like you a bit more.
I'm like, what's going on?
But you're right.
They're paying off everything here.
So you've got, Brian, making a joke that he's been hanging out
with a changeling.
You've got Dax and Worf having a snog because they're back
together again.
The mention of the opera collection as well.
Does he say, are they intact or something?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
All of that.
She says, oh, very nearly, I think, is her response.
And then here, we're giving Martok a job on the station so that he
can be here from week to week, which is why we brought him back.
Well, remember that wonderful subplot we had in Blaze of Glory
where he was causing, he was being a lout on the promenade and
Norg had to try and arrest him.
Yeah, that's right.
Ira Bear actually does say, look, we love the character.
We love the actor.
We didn't know what we were going to do with him at this point.
No, we're just bringing back.
You see what happens, you know?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And it works a dream, doesn't it?
Yeah.
No, and that's the sort of clever thing that they absolutely get
right.
Oh, here we go.
Well, Captain, I want to congratulate you.
You saw through our scheme.
So he must know about it by now and maybe he knew about it all
along, but I don't think.
Yeah, yeah, I don't think that, um, yes, in fact, for the decision
to let the, them explode the planet with the, explode the solar
system with the, there.
Do you know what I mean?
Like he, that's just a very clear statement that he must have
known about it. you know, and he doesn't care because she's
decided against him.
But initially, of course, he would want to get his daughter away
from that.
So that makes that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But once she rejects him for Garak, you know, whatever, I think.
I mean, it takes her death, doesn't it?
until they're reconciled or not?
Not reconciled, but until he starts feeling bad about her again
until he starts feeling.
Actually, no, it's when she comes back to the station and he just
goes, oh, well, you're my daughter, you know.
At this point, he's in a position of massive power.
You're going to force be a little bit magnanimous, you know?
Oh, I love that hour.
He goes, you know, you may have escaped defeat this day, but
tomorrow, we will see about tomorrow.
Yeah.
I think that's like a pretty amazing thing as well for a mid
season 2 partner.
Like, I know that this show has big event to, you know, 2 parters
in the middle of a season.
But something as big a deal as this, like that changes the premise
and changes the, you know, the status quo.
Like I think that's pretty, that is pretty incredible.
And I think the great thing that gives them the chance to do is
just to see, you know, check in on everyone and how they've been
going after the last few episodes, you know, and what's been
happening.
It's that soapy kind of instinct that they have.
Well, I really love about this is they've learned almost from
TNG's mistakes because there was a couple of episodes of TNG that
ended on cliffhangers like this. you know, um, do you remember the
thing sending the signal out into space?
the parasites are trying to take over Starfleet.
And there was a promise that they would come and well, we never
saw them again.
Or even at the end of the one, we watched the wounded, where
Picard's basically saying, you know, we're on the brink of war
with the Cardassians, you know, what's going to happen next and
nothing came of that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, yeah, were they self-consciously setting something up, they
weren't.
It's just that someone saw that it was a hanging thread and
thought, let's retool those we can make the Cardassians work.
Yeah.
But I do like a show that does promise and then delivers.
Delivers, you know?
Yeah.
And they didn't just deliver.
They delivered in a way where they singlehandedly changed how you
can make Star Trek.
Yeah, absolutely.
And let's be honest, that's how they do it now. long form marks
you know, big galactic space battles.
Yeah.
Not in all of the shows, like not in all of the shows, but
definitely in Discovery, which was, you know, the original
flagship.
They brought back something that told long arc stories in a war
context.
Like they might not explicitly reference Deep Space 9 as much as
we might like, but they certainly learnt some lessons from it when
they restarted the show.
The only other thing I want to say is, I think, for me, these 2
VHS tapes, for the uniform, in purgatory shadow, buying the photos
lie, and Dr. Bashir, I presume, Back when I was watching it back
then, I'm not sure about now.
That was my favourite 4 episode run in the entire run.
That's 4 golden episodes back to back.
They were really really knocking it out of the park at this
point.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it is time for us to
decide what we are going to watch next, and it's my go on the
randomiser, and I am going to choose a Kurtzman Trek episode, and
I have selected all of the series.
I think it's long past time.
We dip back into Kersman Trek.
And can I say after doing in Purgatory Shadow and buy Inferno's
light?
Thank you very much for saying we should do this one after I
pressed the button last time.
I have now been reminded why I like Star Trek again.
Let's go.
Let's see what we can do about that.
All right.
I'm gonna press the button.
Unification three.
So your random Star Trek discovery episode, this is season three
episode seven, and it's in the future.
We have Navarre instead of Vulcan, and we have the return of
Michael's mother as well as a Romulan Truth nun.
Oh, no.
Plenty of opportunities for Michael Burnham to stare off camera
but tears in her eyes.
In fact, it actually ends up being, I think, deliberately nowhere
near as overwrought as it had been in series 2. there's one
ludicrously hot Vulcan in it, but I am going to press the button
again.
Oh, okay.
Although I do love that series free.
I can't wait till we get back to it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is it is pretty fun.
So this is Picard season 2, episode 4 Watcher.
I say again.
Yeah, okay.
Okay, so this is Star Trek Lower Decks, the least dangerous game
which we covered episode 60.
It's the most recent Kurtzman Trek episode we've done.
Basically, Nathan, if you were going to say any lower decks
episode, I was going to say, yeah, we're doing it.
How about this then?
Your random Star Trek Lower Decks episode is Envoys, series one
episode two.
So the 2nd episode of Lower Decks.
Which one's that?
I can't remember.
I don't remember either.
I think we just do it.
What do you think?
They're all great.
You know, sometimes when we go in blind, we get wharf in the
fold.
Other times we go in blind, we know we're going to get something
at least that's possible television.
Yeah, although I have to say the last Kurtzman trick we did was a
lower deck.
Oh, okay, press it again.
Okay.
Oh my god, this could be anything.
Your random Star Trek Lower Dex episode is terminal provocation
season one, episode six.
I don't know what that is either.
I'm going to press it again.
Once again.
Ooh.
Okay.
Your random Star Trek Discovery episode is coming home.
Season four, episode 13.
So the final episode of season four.
Will this make me watching season 4 completely move?
Wow.
Have you watched it?
No, you didn't get round to watching it.
I certainly can't watch it all in a week.
No, okay.
Let's try again.
I'm so sorry.
Your random Star Trek Discovery episode is Terra Farma part two.
That would mean doing terra firma part one as well. which I think
unusually for discovery is the previous episode, and it's
terrafoma part one and part 2, and it's, you know, towards the end
of series 3, which we did actually touch on at some point. one
more time.
Okay, your random Star Trek Picard episode is, it's not from
series 3.
It's season two, episode 10.
Farewell.
So it's the finale of series 2.
Let's do it Yeah, I think that's right.
I think it's the finale of series 2.
Anyway, we'll get us to talk about series 2.
So season two, episode 10, farewell.
Oh, I've only seen the 1st 2 or 3 episodes of season two, and I've
heard mixed reviews of the season as a whole.
But I know some pretty big stuff happens in that last episode.
So I certainly think we'll have a lot of talking points.
Yeah, yeah. think we will.
Is this when we say goodbye to Rios and Agnes and all of that?
Oh, man, what were they thinking?
To bring back in Marina Surtis and Gates McFadden.
What were they doing?
No.
We all loved Picard series three.
It was a great television event and we will be covering it at some
point.
But until then, it's season 2 episode 10.
Let's do it.
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find
links to our Twitter, mastered on Facebook and YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 23rd of May 2023 and released on
the 2nd of June.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Picard.
Farewell.
Good choice.
Yeah, that's a good choice.
Well, because we did assimilation.
Do you remember that?
or whatever it was, the one the shit I stole from the Borg Queen
dot text.
Which was good, but it was very much like a...
Just a bit of us.
A to B sort of episode.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
What we should do is season 2, episode two. one was amazing.
Yeah, wasn't it good?
So good.
I could have spent a bit more time in that eagle universe.
The Confederate.
Yeah, they're a little bit too much like the mirror universe, I
think, but that's kind of the point.
The point, you know, the point of the mirror universe in, um
Discovery season one was that it's kind of fascist, you know, like
America's kind of weird fascist tendencies kind of brought to the
four, you know.
Sort of the Trump period.
Yeah, well, I think that's absolutely it.
We get, you know, um, what's his name, Lorke saying, make the
galaxy great again, and, you know, they've got a power source
that's going to sort of end all life everywhere, which is kind of
what we're doing with fossil fuel and stuff.
Like it is, you know, it is that.
You do terrible things for that tardigrade.
No, no, no, that's fake news.
Yeah, yeah.
No, I, you know, like I genuinely think that's what, that's what's
happening in series one and we start with, you know, like post 911
kind of war thing where we kind of start to abandon our
principles.
Um, and then we just go into sort of weird arse, hallucinate
hallucinatory kind of mirror universe kind of staff with the Trump
here, I think.
Michelle, yo being fabulous.
So good.
Cousin Michelle.
I'm strangely so much more...
I'm not think, I'm saying on.
This could be the tag. you're eating during the tag.
Sorry, this pear has lasted me the whole episode.
I've been sort of nibbling it for a while.
But very quietly, so it doesn't appear on the mic, you know?
Yeah, okay.
Um, So I'm going to say, oh, yeah, I'm much more on board with
watching Kurtzman Trope these days and I think Strange New World
turn the tide because we're Strange New World.
I got 3 Kurtzman Trek shows that I really like now.
Lower Decks, Prodigy and Strangely Wells.
And then I've got two, which I think are massively flawed, but
interesting to talk about.
So I think series 3 of Picard was magnificent.
I thought it was absolutely everything it should have been.
It was like the film, the good film that that crew never got. you
know.
So.
But it did play it safe.
Yeah, 0 yeah, yeah.
But they are allowed to after 2 seasons of not doing that.
It's just kind of like, oh, fuck it, we've got everyone and we
will go to just the most absurd lengths to get them all back doing
their thing.
You know, we'll have to go to...
On the bridge of the Enterprise?
Yeah, yeah.
All of that.
It's just like, okay, oh, fuck, they're doing the Enterprise D
That's so tremendous. like, yep, whatever. don't care.
Obviously, because it's all nostalgia.
But I was like, wow, so the big climax that we were leading to was
precisely where we were in 1990 every week.
So good.
Which, you know what?
I think that says a lot about Next Generation and Picard.
It wasn't it wasn't going anywhere bold or experimental or new.
No, we are just going to lean into the past and do it very well.
I acknowledge, you know, in a way that was very satisfying for
people.
Yeah, I mean, I think that 1st season tried to do things and
failed in all sorts of ways that were kind of interesting.
I think the 2nd season has a real proper through line and the most
brilliant thing about it is having ice, the villains, like having
you know, like the American state is the villain and you get all
this sort of racism against Rios and stuff is pretty amazingly
interesting, you know, so hot.
That's really why I wanted to watch it.
I mean, I could never fully get on board with series 3, just
because they wrote out.
Because he was incredibly hot, man.
But then I loved Agnes as well. she was a great character.
So good, so brilliant.
I'm not like Rafi.
In fact, I think they assembled a really good cast of characters.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm glad that we got Raffi and 7 at the end, though, of Picard.
That was pretty good.
They're pretty awesome Yeah.
All right.
947.
Okay.
I should probably go to bed.
You should have a nap.
That was fun.
Oh, very fun.
I enjoyed that.
Yeah.
I kind of knew I would, because this is my passion, but, yeah.
Well, send me the thing and I will...