Hi, Joe. Hi.
So it is a bit of an important episode, this one.
It's the turning point.
It's kind of like the fulcrum around which Voyager turns.
It's Scorpion and Scorpion part two.
So the series 3 finale and the series 4 Opener and the
introduction of 7 of 9.
I have been perusing memory alpha, such as my want.
And some episodes, you, there's, there's scraps, there's
breadcrumbs, you know, there's nothing to, half the enterprise
output.
There's nothing at all on there.
Scorpion part one and two It's like someone's dissertation of
quotes.
I mean, there's a lot on there.
And the general consensus seems to be amongst the Voyager
production team.
That's the actors and the people making it, that this is Peak
Voyager.
This was where they started to get in some positive attention
because there was a rating spike for Scorpion, both the finale and
the opener, um, in a way where they were sort of like slowly
leaking viewers, suddenly they took a big upturn for this.
Unfortunately, after this, they started leaking viewers again.
But no, no, the general feeling is that this was a positive time
and heading into season 4 and the introduction of 7 of nine.
This is where Voyager kind of took off.
Yeah, and I think that's kind of fair.
We've kind of seen what I hope isn't the end of 7 of 9 story in
Picard series 3 over the last few weeks.
And she just continues to be superb, like she is a great
character.
And we don't quite get to see that yet, I think, in Scorpion part
two.
Oh definitely not.
And there's some quotes from Jerry Ryan, who basically didn't have
a fucking clue what she was doing.
I was getting very little direction from anybody.
She was getting up at 4 AM in the morning and, you know, squeezed
into that ridiculous prosthetic suit.
Jeez, you know, she's been doing soaps and things like this, but
she ain't, she's never been in a costume like this before.
She's suddenly on this stage at, you know, 5 AM going, right, what
am I supposed to do?
Act like a robot.
She'd watch Rise, that was really all she knew about Star Trek.
Do you know what's really funny was?
she thought as the Borg, because the drones don't talk, that she
wasn't going to get any dialogue in the 1st episode, and then the
script came in, and there's a quote from her saying, I got on the
phone to Rick Berman and said, what's this?
I've literally, I've got all the dialogue in the episode. the hell
do I do this?
And I think you can see that in Scorpion 2 that, you know, she's
sort of going for that Ice Maiden approach.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, she's not quite there yet.
And where she lands is actually really pretty incredible and it
doesn't take her too long to actually find what she's going to
do.
But this is very strange to watch in retrospect.
And of course, in the decades that have passed since Voyager
finished, in the year, you know, what is it, 2401 or something.
She is a lot more relaxed and a lot more human.
While retaining, I think her kind of underlying affect, which is
just so much fun.
She is like, she is really good, but we won't get to see that
yet.
But I think, you know, this is their attempt to do best of both
worlds, isn't it?
They're at the same point.
And the Delta quadrant is where the Borg came from.
So we were always kind of expecting it to happen.
Initially, well, I was reading initially Unity, which is the
Shakotay episode in series 3, where he meets members of the ball
collective that still have implants, but are no longer part of the
collective.
That was going to be the only Borg episode in Voyager.
That's what they were planning.
And the original season 3 climax was the year of hell.
So it's going to be a two-parter and it was going to be the 2 year
of Hell episodes.
However, because they knew there was going to be some cast changes
that couldn't happen.
So that was shunted off into series 4 and they suddenly had to
come up with something for the end of three.
Now post, 1st contact, where the queen is killed, Braga suddenly
had this bright idea of like, okay, well then why don't we show
what's going on with the Borg post, 1st contact.
Yeah.
And let's really go to town and do ball cities and, you know, and
borgify up Voyager in a massive way.
And they didn't really go down that approach because he had an
idea in his head.
This shows you how Brandon Braggle riots as well.
He had no idea of a premise or an idea or anything.
He's like, I've got this image in my mind of like a Borg graveyard
which I think we see in one of these two, don't we?
He goes, I've got the image and let's just go from there.
Yeah, and I said, I'm like, okay, let's get this down on paper.
Let's have a proper idea that we're going to work with.
But I do think this is the 1st time, I seriously feel like Voyage
is in a lot of trouble in the Delta Quadrant.
Yeah.
And it feels like an unsolvable problem, certainly in the 1st
episode, and I really like that because we've had 3 years of TNG
knockoffs at this point.
And I remember watching this the 1st time and going, okay, this is
interesting.
Are they going to run with this?
And then I watch Scorpion 2 and I'm like, oh, they are going to
run with this.
And then I watched the gift and I was like, oh, no, they're not.
No, they're not.
And we're back to TNG knockoffs for the rest of the series four
with the inclusion of 7 of nine.
I think there is something commendable about the scale and the
weirdness of this. because we have had kind of the obvious thing
which is the Borg are going to attack Earth.
And there's a sense in which that was on the table from Q-Hoo
onwards.
Like, I think Q-Hoo ends with them reiterating the fact that the
Borg are on their way.
And so we were kind of heading towards that.
Here, we can't do the Borg attack Earth because it's Voyager.
But instead we reach Borg Space, and I think there are some really
great, weird visuals here, and I don't think they all come off, and
I think some of them are very cheap and don't quite work, but
there is a very un 90s trek attempt to look weird and strange.
And I think the computer animation at the cliffhanger is
fantastic.
It's really great.
I think maybe we think that now.
I think when this came out, this looked amazing.
And I think, I think a lot of people thought this looked amazing
at the time.
And I know there was one person who definitely was watching this
and was so inspired by watching Scorpion.
That's in memory alpha two.
That's Brian Fuller, who created Discovery, that he was like, I
want to work on this show.
This is, you know, this is as big as TV is right now.
This is as good as TV looks right now.
I want to work on this to the point where, you know, he was such a
Star Trek fan.
He went off and created his own intriguing arm of Star Trek.
Yeah, yeah, which is gone completely...
He went visuals first, didn't he?
Like he made sure Discovery looked incredible.
Yeah, yeah.
And well, look, I think even sort of Braga's, you know, if Braga's
writing process or creative process is this set piece or this
image, that's a perfectly legitimate way for a writer to work.
And I think in Star Trek, it's particularly good.
I think Star Trek's suited to that because I think Star Trek is
about weird images.
And I think this actually delivers on that.
I will have criticisms of some of the sets, and there's one or 2
sets. in this 1st episode that I think just don't work at all.
I just I just really felt this was Voyager pulling its socks up
and saying, you know, like everyone thinks we're a bit of a joke
because I think at this point nobody was really taking this show
very seriously.
And then suddenly we're seeing the Borg presented in a way they
never could have done invest of both worlds.
No, you know.
And come the end of the series when we have got enormous bulk
cities and things like this in endgame and things like that.
You know, they take it to mutually really impressive places.
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Nathan, before we jump into Scorpion part one, I've got a few
treats to share with you.
Have you cooked me something from Neelix's cookbook?
No, yeah, no.
Okay.
I've got the ingredients for marina sodas, eggplant salad.
Don't worry.
You could need it anyway. you're on the other side of the world
have to post it to me.
No, no, no.
So here in Eastbourne, where this fabulous 4 story bookshop
right?
Did I ever take you in there when you came here?
No, but you have told me about it.
Yeah.
Oh my god, it's amazing, like a treasure trove of books.
And they've got a huge science fiction section and I found the
mother load of Star Trek books the other day.
Now, there was as many.
I didn't get as I did.
I had stuff like Star Trek, the technical manual and things like
that.
And as much as I want to...
Much as I want to know about the ins and outs of the Jeffries
tubes, you know, I didn't buy that one.
But I did buy the very 1st volume of Captain's Logs.
Now, I remember before I showed you, I had the 2nd volume.
Well, this is sort of the original series version.
Yeah.
But this will give us fascinating titbits for future episodes.
I also picked up Star Trek, the Visual Dictionary.
Oh, wow.
Now, this is a really good book because across the thing.
It sort of covers the different alien races and things like that
but visually it pulls together all the 90s shows.
So you see the various depictions of all the races and the planet
and the technology and things like that.
But...
Alice Craig on the front of that?
It certainly is, yeah.
Just turned up in Picard, doesn't she?
Yeah, yeah.
Best of all, though.
I've hit the mother load with this book.
Oh my god.
So what I have here is Captain Slog, William Shatner's personal
account of making Star Trek 5, the final front seat.
So when we come on Star Trek 5.
I'm going to read this entire book.
Let that be soon.
That's going to be hilarious.
Is it all just Shatner saying how great he was and that it's only
a shit film because everyone else was terrible.
It's bound to be that, surely.
Let's have a little look, surely.
We watched the film in silence, fully aware. that these problems
meant the entire sequence of the film was unuseable.
I mean, I mean, that's the whole fucking film, isn't it?
Anyway, I promise I will read this at some and regale you with
Shatner's tales.
No, I need to hear that.
That sounds superb.
I saw that.
And I said, no, forget all the others.
I've gotta buy that.
If only Nemoy had wrote a competing book about his account, if
they're making a soundtrack file.
From the point of view of somebody, you know, sensible, rational
this is just going to be, you know, social egomania, isn't it?
Yeah Anyways, sorry about that.
A little diversion there.
No, that's perfect.
And I was chatting with a friend of the podcast, Peter, and he
thinks that Janeway owes more than a little to Shatner for the way
that she performs as the captain, I think.
And we'll talk about that as we go in because I think there's
something to be said for that.
There is a few quotes about, um, Kate Mulgroom's performance from
the production team, which is quite interesting, but I'll sort of
bring them up as we, as we go through this.
I think she's spectacular in this.
Really, really great.
And as you and I have discussed off mic, Basically the only
character in this.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
You know, everybody else is sort of a cypher.
You're doing their jobs.
Yeah that's right.
I think they're trying to give Robert Beltran things to do.
Yeah.
But he's not giving them anything back.
We'll talk more about the medium, Robert, as we go through.
All right.
I'm gonna count us in. you ready to go?
All right.
Let's head into the shortest pre-title sequence ever. 20 seconds
long.
All right.
Okay.
Here goes.
Five, four, three, two, one.
And we're off.
That's a mission statement though.
These 2 Borgs coming along, these ball cubes being destroyed
immediately.
I mean, it does say what the episode's about.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's really good and it's a great mystery as well.
And I think we left hanging for a little bit.
So and it's a spectacular explosion.
I think that's a really good looking sequence.
You might think that's CGI, but actually, I was reading because
special effects sequence on memory alpha is enormous in this
episode.
And that is they actually, they build up some models.
But they didn't make a model.
They made loads of fragments and put them together.
So we can differently shatter in a very dramatic way.
Yeah, yeah.
The explosion didn't look like something that they'd made in a
computer at all.
When is this 1997.
Yeah.
I don't think there was much like this.
Was there 97?
No.
I don't think so.
I mean, what sort of, I did Star Trek lead to a big kind of
Renaissance of TV science fiction.
No one was watching Babylon 5, which I haven't even heard of.
No, and Babylon 5.
Do you know what?
I don't like Batman on 5 and I certainly don't like the very
cartoonist CGI, but it was pioneering in what it was doing.
Yeah.
Yeah, it did, you know, like it pushed, I guess.
It did look like cartoon spaceships, but it was yeah, it was only
a few years before Star Trek was doing it as well, but they were
better at it.
You know, at the end of this episode, Kate Mulgrew is very badly
superimposed over the ball cube.
Well, every time they go, there's sort of like a mezzanine area on
Babylon 5, right?
And every time they go up on this sort of bridge across the shops
there's a really dreadful sort of backdrop show at the space
station behind them. and it just always looks as bad as that shot
at the end of this.
That is a bad shot in this episode.
And I know you and I, we talked about the artificiality of TV, but
you know, there are limits.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean you can suspend your disbelief and stuff.
You don't have to have realism, but if part of your job is to
present that.
Oh, all right, okay.
So here we are.
This is the introduction of the da Vinci workshop, which is a kind
of running thing in series for culminating in concerning flight, am
I right?
Unfortunately so, yes.
I can't remember concerning flight.
It's a very charming pair of performances in a particularly badly
written episode.
Okay.
I mean, I think this is really good.
I think the one problem with it, and again, it's a story logic
issue like the one we spoke about last week.
So having that artificial person with the moving arm and stuff
makes us think of the Borg, doesn't it?
But this isn't particularly about anything.
Um, But what I do like is the scene later on where she comes to
speak to Da Vinci.
Oh, the one the bit by a candlelight.
Yeah, yeah.
I think it's really cool.
And so this is, uh, what's his name?
John Reese Davis.
John Reese Davies, who was.
He played the professor in Sliders.
Sliders, but he was in Lord of the Rings, of course.
Oh, yeah.
And Brian Blessed in that, isn't he?
He's really good though.
I think he is really good in this Well, I think he's very
charming.
And I think Kate Mulgra is massively invested because she was
instrumental in this character appearing in Voyager.
Oh, okay.
So in conversations with Braga, she said that she should have a
fellow scientist to sort of talk to that isn't someone on the crew
and they said, well, let's do something fun on the holiday.
Bracker goes, you know, what's the point of history where science
um, and art, like it was at their most contentious together.
And they both went da Vinci at the same time.
And so she, and then I think she might have even been involved in
you know, John Reeslavers would be great at this.
So she really wanted, and she wanted him to be a running character
a bit like Vic Fontaine to go on and on.
It doesn't quite.
It would have been quite nice though, I think.
And where are we?
Where is he?
Is he in Florence?
I think it's a painting of something out the window that looks
vaguely like...
That's one of their better paintings, though.
And I think it's a really big... impressive set.
Tall set.
Look how high the ceiling is.
Look how small it's not... genuinely, massively tall. isn't it?
Yeah.
They going...
I mean, for this whole episode, they're going for scale, aren't
they?
And this, just this conversation is wonderful too, where she gives
him the idea of a flying machine that doesn't work from flapping
wings, but through gliding. wonderful.
I realise watching this is about 75% of the joy of watching this
show is Kate Marlgrew.
Oh she's so good.
She is extraordinary.
And the fact that we almost didn't get her.
And we almost have Genevieve Bujol, you know?
Yeah, who's...
I think she probably would have been as wooden as Beltran.
We would have had 2 very wooden leads in this show.
But she's she's got a real kind of, there's a real life, a real
verve.
And I think there are some beautiful moments in this episode.
She's really, really properly good.
Okay, so we've got some bad news.
I'd love to throw this, picked up some information.
All she has to do is just this bit in engineering.
But until like that goes to the thing, then there's a Borg looking
at it, pointing it with a thing, and so it's been captured.
Like that was the probe's eye view of being captured by the Borg
and a Borg was about to disassemble it.
What is with this table?
Can anyone tell me what's going on with this?
It looks like an enormous keyhole, doesn't it?
Yeah, I don't know.
It is a shape like that.
It's very hard.
I feel like it's supposed to light up and a hologram is supposed
to come out of it or something.
Maybe that was it.
I can't afford it, yeah, I'm afraid.
That's correct.
Yeah, that's right.
What it does do, I think, is throw the focus on Kate because it's
not like the conference table.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Yeah, yeah.
It's a strong position for her to be in.
Now, I want to say, I remember writing to you when I was watching
this episode.
I was really impressed with this scene because this crew just
seems very competent in this scene that everybody around that
table comes up with an idea and they formulate a plan around those
ideas.
Well, that's classic Star Trek, isn't it?
It's the classic we're good at our jobs.
You'd think it would be a given, but it isn't really the normal
Voyager, you know?
So, can you hear me?
Yeah.
Yeah, okay.
I think I bumped something.
So why is Neelix here?
He's just going to, he's organising snacks.
No, no, they say Neelix.
I don't think we're going to be able to get any supplies soon.
Don't worry.
I'm working on a plan to, you know, keep our rations going.
They throw it in a line to excuse him.
I mean, he should be throwing, he should be throwing parties or
something, Borg themed parties to keep everyone's morale up.
Let's take a step back from the usual wager for a 2nd there and
think about how exciting this is that we are entering Bork space.
That's a big idea, and that's an exciting idea.
And then they managed to trump that with the other premise, which
is, who the hell could do this to the Borg?
They're all being murdered.
Yeah, it's brilliant too, that they actually lead with that, and
then we're allowed to forget about it.
I always think that that's particularly good.
The show itself forgets that this episode is about a big offscreen
thing that can destroy the Borg very easily.
And so it makes the threat the Borg.
And so why does he have a hand?
Why does the good Robert have a hand with nanotubules on it or
whatever?
He got this in unity in unity three.
Yeah.
Yeah, okay.
Don't worry. all makes sense.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I assumed, I mean, I assumed that, which is why they, I'm
relieved that we don't have a line where he says this hand that I
retrieve from the Borg, you know, like blah, blah, blah.
It's like, where do we imagine he got it from?
Excuse me.
They're not above it.
When we watched Endgame and 7 of 9 wanted to have a romance with
Chakotay and they were like, no, no, remember in that episode
you're not allowed to have a romance.
Remember, you're called so implants.
I will make a comparison as well.
I know I'll do this a lot, yeah.
But as a finale, as the end as an end to a season.
This is miles better than endgame.
I think.
Yeah.
I think I think endgame works as the end of a series though.
Yeah, I don't know about this.
So this is us working towards the departure of Kess, and we know
that's happening, don't we already?
Like this is, yeah.
And so yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is the last time that her name appears in the credits from
series four.
She's best guest star, yeah.
Okay, and that she's just in that episode.
That and the gift.
Yeah.
Oh, yes, of course.
Yeah.
So she's back for 2 episodes.
That's right.
And so KS is starting to become telepathic in a way that he's
going to enable them to write her out in gift, in the gift, and
then to kind of ruin this exciting new premise by just flinging
a...
So bad, isn't it?
Look, maybe a whole season of them dodging the board, Borg would
have been terrible.
But it didn't have to be and it didn't have to be boring.
They could have found new things.
Four seasons of them attempting to dodge the cylons and Battlestar
Galactica didn't get boring.
No that's right.
If you've got a bit of imagination and creative.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, I mean, even if you think about the series 3 of Enterprise
where they spend a whole season on a mission and each episode, like
I think it does serialisation quite well, even if I think the
whole thing is massively misconceived.
You know, each episode is a standalone episode set against this
backdrop.
They could have done it, but they were a little bit too scared.
I mean, they're a little bit too kind of know this is for
syndication.
It has to be viewable in any order.
And that kind of wrecks the show a bit.
Look at that.
I love the count too, where he goes, one, two, three, four, 15
like he jumps, a huge number, and then just give you...
He goes, Captain.
Apparently, they were all paying attention.
And they went, are you going to say the line like that?
And then every time they had to say captain, they all took the
piss out of him.
This is great.
So they're being photocopied by the Borg.
And as that scanning thing goes across the bridge and it hits her
She says, think good thoughts.
And like, I'm not even sure why she's saying that.
Is it so, is it because she's fancying that if they're thinking
good thoughts when the Borg scam them, you know, that they'll get
a reading of them being strong or brave or something like that, is
it just they're really close and I need you to feel okay?
But just the fact that it's never, like, it's an odd thing to say
and it's a great line.
It's a good line.
And but like, you know, and I will always say when they're copying
other shows, you know, end of series 3 of TNG, the ball walk, and
we have that shot in best of both worlds where the green light
comes across the enterprise.
Like we're playing in the same kind of ballpark, aren't we?
Yeah.
But it, like, like you said to me about Dog 2.
It's looking back at when Star Trek was enormously popular and
what worked and saying, right, let's do that and then we'll make
it bigger.
Yeah.
That shot too, I think the one problem with that shot where they
go past the 14 cubes is that?
15 is, yeah, 15.
It's in the dialogue, is that the, the, um, Voyager is relatively
large compared to the cubes.
Is it those?
Isn't there a scene where the balls, the cubes sort of fly by them
and Voyager just sort of gets flung?
Yeah, but I think Voyager is quite large compared to the cubes in
that shot.
I thought that that was the problem with that shot, whereas the
enterprise is quite small compared to the Borgian best of both
worlds.
And, you know, also...
We've had all of these sort of establishing shots of the
Enterprise over a couple of years. of it feeling vast. and then we
see the queue.
It's absolutely enormous compared to the enterprise, yeah.
So this scene, I'm not sure why we're doing this, but there is a
little bit, I think, I think that they say nearly works, and I
think that Robert nearly rises to it.
Like, they're having a little bit of, like, this is quite a nice
moment.
And there's, we need this moment, don't we?
We need this moment to see the wharf between them.
And for him to say look, I'll follow you anywhere.
But the scene later on, where she says, just yesterday, you said
to me, you'd follow me anywhere.
Now I'm on my own.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And it gives her the chance to act.
I love the idea that Ensign Hickman does a Janeway.
Oh, my God.
Look at Kate's reaction.
She loves it. so good.
And, of course, the thing that Janeway is so imitable.
You know, it's that performance, that Catherine Hepburn
performance.
It's wonderful and it really humanises her.
But the way she ends this scene, like, it's not just the line, it's
the delivery because the one thing that she does.
She, she doesn't.
She's not doing method.
Do you know what I mean?
She shows us what she's feeling.
And she does it so well.
She does it so tremendously well.
Well, I like the fact at this point as well.
They just let her show emotion when the scene is like.
I think initially they wanted that to be a bit sort of hard as now
and a bit more masculine, yeah.
But I think it's wonderful, this strong leader who is like that.
So this, do you know what I mean?
We'll face it together.
If things go horribly wrong, what we're facing is our whole
mission, and this, you're not alone, Catherine, and look at the
look on her face.
And that line is beautiful and so well delivered.
Three years ago, I didn't know your name and now I can't imagine a
day without you. gorgeous, isn't it?
And she touches his chest.
And it's not particularly romantic.
And I think what's a...
Not at all.
But, you know, there are attractive people, do you know what I
mean?
Like there's a free song there, but I guess what, I guess what
disappoints me is how Beltran doesn't, I think they fudge this in
the writing.
Like, I think they fucked this up.
And I just don't think he gives her anything.
Like he's rising to being in a scene with her, but when she's
unconscious or out of the picture, He's just not up to it.
Imagine if she was going up against sort of, you know, Renee
Obichon Wild, someone like that, you know.
It would be gold, wouldn't it?
It said she's sort of just emoting against a plank of woods.
So here we have the Borg debris on the screen, which looks pretty
amazing.
And this is where Paris gets his best line ever, where he says, who
could do this sort of Borg?
That's the mission statement of this episode, isn't it?
Who the hell?
That shot is great of the Voyager just going in through the Borg
debris.
Going back to Kate Mulgrew for a second.
I've got a quote here from Joe Manosky. because they started to
notice that Janeway, as the series went on, was being performed
more like Kate Mulgrew and the Janeway, but they were writing.
And so Verowski says here, in Scorpion part one.
Janeway was becoming a little more risk taking and edgy, and
frankly, a little bit more like Kate Mulgrew.
I've always said, even to Jerry Taylor, I used to say always
anyway, if Captain Janeway were more like Kate, we would have a
much better character on our hands.
So for whatever reason, our writing and Kate's kind of
freewheeling personality, they seem to come together a bit more at
the end of the 3rd season.
And I think you and that's absolutely true, isn't it?
Yeah.
She's got a bit more bite.
Yeah, she's astonishing.
And I think it's no coincidence that the episodes of Voyager that
we've been most positive about, have had her in a kind of major
role, particularly counterpoint.
Jeez, that one in series one, prime factors, where Chivot betrays
her.
Yeah.
Fucking hell, her performance at the end of that.
So good.
She's so good.
And do you remember, do you remember Death Wish as well, where she
has to make the ruling on where to kill the queue.
Oh, she's brilliant in that as well.
Yeah, yeah, it's a shame.
I think that we don't get more of her and Tuvok.
Like Tuvok's so wasted by this show.
And they have a, you know, they have a close relationship because
he's been in the crew for a long time and he's also an incredibly
strong actor on the cast.
You know, right?
been watching a show recently called Samantha Who, right?
I only ran for 2 seasons and Tim Russ is in it as one of the sort
of semi-regulars.
He's the doorman where she lives and he plays it very like
Chewbok.
He's a bit sort of emotionless and robotic, but every episode
she's got one scene where she's going in and out of the apartment
and he gets a devastatingly witty line.
And he's really funny.
And I'm like, whoever knew Tim Ross?
It's funny because Voyager certainly never showed me that in 7
years.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And they could have done.
I mean, you know, like Ethan Peck is funny as Spock. just because
he's a Vulcan doesn't mean he can't be funny.
Right, come on.
You and me are going to have a punch-up. don't think this works at
all.
I think this is terrific sequence.
The one thing that I do like is that where the ball got kind
of...
Punching at the air.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. that demented behaviour and where they're kind
of slightly dismembered and all of that, that's good.
Always going on about how there's no atmosphere in 90s trek.
They are pumping it full of dry ice.
The lighting is down.
They're strobe lighting going on.
We don't know what we're going to face because we've already...
But it's just the same shitty set. you know, that sort of flat
pack that they've assembled into a thing.
Look at the, like there's no sense of space that we're just going
backwards and forwards.
There's no urgency.
There's no...
I think it's tight.
Because we're not really supposed to see the threat, yeah.
I don't know.
I just thought there was a real I thought there was a visual
drama.
Like, that's shit.
That thing.
You know what that is?
The Borg corpse is all sort of amalgamated together.
It's a 12 inch model that they've made.
Well, because later on Harry's edging around it, like the
characters are edging around it now, and I thought, that's not
even there.
But, you know, props to them for doing something a bit grizzly
because it's a bit nasty.
You know, it's got bald heads been severed and things like that.
Here's what I think the problem is, right?
So they're redoing the scene from Qhu.
And in Qhu, they... got a lot brighter in kihu.
Yeah, but unless, but this, like, they have all of this stuff
lying around after 1st contact, and they don't seem to be using it
the set seems quite small.
Q who is that thing where they go on board the Borg cube and they
investigate it and they have babies in drawers, which I think we
need to bring back, like, why don't the Borg have babies in
drawers anymore?
And, and like, and it doesn't definitely generate with the
hairdryer. you know?
Yeah, that's right.
But all of that is because the Borg are new and we've never done
them before and we need to see them.
We need to see what they're like, particularly given that we're
basically only interacting with them from inside the spaceship
right?
Otherwise, they're just a square spaceship.
We need to kind of go in there and see them and learn what they're
like.
And because it's so odd and because we don't really know the Borg
and because I think of Ron Jones's music, although I think the
music in this 2 parter is very good, I've been humming the music
at the end of this episode all week.
Yeah, yeah.
Not just the Borg theme, but the 8472 theme is very good.
Here, we're walking around and we don't really expect anything to
happen, so there's no tension.
And I do think like it's not propulsive.
There's no sense of pace.
There's nothing.
Don't buy that, though.
They've established a threat that there's something that's killing
the Borg.
And we know it's on this cube because this cube is...
And we know that it has...
But it could see, I was really involved watching this scene
because I was like, okay, we've kind of suggested that there's a
big threat.
And we're doing...
I'd rather have these tight shots in these sets than the long
shots with the terrible, you know, backdrops that we get at the
end of the episode.
No, no, no, that's true, but I still don't get a sense of, like
what they're sort of wandering around some sets and bits of
standing set.
I just...
The feeling I got was that something could jump out of them at any
minute.
And there's a bit of handheld camera work going on.
And then something, surprise, surprise, does jump out and surprise
surprise, attacks Harry Kim because he's the chunk that always
gets attacked.
Exactly.
Bless him.
But no, you've got to remember as well.
There was a suggestion that Garrett rang was going to be written
out and this, I think, was going to be how they were going to do
it.
Right.
Well, they were going to kill him.
Wow.
Yeah, but they don't think.
What are they going to do?
have him fall in love.
Yeah, yeah. and like stay on a planet or whatever.
Just have him demoted.
But again, this is shitty too.
Do you know what I mean?
Part of the problem with Star Trek at this point is that the sets
are just bits of flat pack that they kind of reassemble into
different things.
This is something new, but yeah, that's quite good, isn't it?
But I think that set is really shitty.
And like we've seen that done better in aliens.
Do you know what I mean?
which is a feature film, but it's a feature film from, you know, a
few years earlier than this.
You know, it needs to look like the inside of a body and it just
it just doesn't quite get there.
It's so weird how you and me had a completely different reaction
to that sequence.
I was properly involved in that.
How the camera was sort of following Harry around.
I was like, when's he going to get attacked because I knew it was
coming.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm looking forward to the big reveal, which is coming.
As as sort of dated as the Species 8472 CGI is now.
I think it's an attempt to do something a bit different.
Oh, yeah.
And I think at the time it was, I mean, it was an impressive at
the time.
It was still a bit shitty, but it was, yeah, you know, like
enterprise, I think, goes on and does this with the Tholians and
the Gorn, doesn't it?
Like a few years later.
Um, well-established aliens are realised it's just sort of
computer generated.
And it's more successful because the technology is a bit better.
But I'm glad that they tried it.
See, this is bullshit as well.
We're going to do a skeleta lock.
It's a thing I just thought up and maybe that will let us beam him
over, even though we couldn't do it before.
We're going to have to add that to the Starfleet manual.
So shit.
Come on.
We never hear of it ever again.
Just like that bit where he fiddles about that because we haven't
tried to make a terrible decision.
Oh, they're probably using skeletal locks all the time from here
on.
Oh, here we go.
Yeah, so here we go.
I'll say this.
I'll say this, all right, because this is the one of 2 times when
they try to create, you know, the most fearsome menace that Star
Trek's ever seen, is this and the slimers from the end of Equedox
you remember?
Those sort of ghostly things.
They wrote in the script.
This has got to be the most terrifying thing that we've ever
faced.
And then they did these CGI versions of Slimer from Ghostbusters.
And I think neither time they're particularly successful, but this
is probably the more successful 2 attempts.
Yeah, I look, you know, they come back once, is that right?
And they're mostly just played by people in Holodeck.
Did you see that ball?
It just flung Voyager.
Just like literally just flipped the voyager over.
Yeah.
It feels like...
It does feel like the danger's big, doesn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And I think, like, I like the look of the bio ships from outside.
Like I think inside the set is shit, but I think that they look
really great.
And it's a very good formation. and all the electric goes into the
one in the middle and it fires out a massive beam.
Well, that, I think, what the hell is going on?
It's awesome.
It's really good.
And it's them doing, you know, real proper giant computer
generated weird stuff.
You know, and the 8472 are weirder than the Borg, because the Borg
have...
I mean, the thing about the Borg is they have ships that don't
give a shit about aerodynamics or design or anything like that
they're just a fucking, geometric shape, you know, like, and
that's all we're doing.
And all our pipes are on the outside.
Do you know what I mean?
We don't care about how it looks or it's designed.
We're completely alien.
And then you get these things which are just like big, weird
aliens who ride in big, weird aliens.
And the rules are gone.
Bluidic space, which I think is an idea that's a lot more fun than
they ever actually managed to realise in the episode.
I think that you could do amazing things with that idea.
But one, they don't have the means.
And two, they don't really have the imagination.
No, in discovery, remember there's like mushroom space. sort of
subspace realm.
But it looked amazing, didn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course it did, but it's much later.
But look at Kate.
Look at Kate's really...
Harry Kim has got an enormous frond coming out of his nose now.
Yeah, tendril.
It's a big tendril coming out.
Oh, that is really gross, though.
Mr. Kim is being eaten alive.
And he can't be treated.
And this goes somewhere as well.
Like this explains what's happening.
Like he is being eaten alive.
The doctor tries to sedate him, but can't, because whatever the
8472 are made of, it rejects any kind of therapeutic
intervention.
And so what you have is you've got the Borg who are a
technological thing that absorbs people, and now you have
something stronger than them that is just purely biological
there's no technology involved at all.
You know, it's like a big space thing.
And it's so weird and so much weirder than nearly anything that
we've ever seen in Star Trek.
And of course, that's the ultimate opposite of the Borg, isn't
it?
A biological threat.
Technological threat.
So, and I think there is a germ of a really good idea that, um
that the Borg, like, that she's basically saying that we should, um
eliminate spaces 8472.
I don't think it goes anywhere though.
No, I don't think so either.
And I think they sort of throw it in the air, don't they?
This is voyageous problem.
Yeah.
And they muddy it with by failing to do the conflict between
Chakose and her properly.
Like they don't really think it through and it doesn't really
work.
And then it just ends.
I like the tension.
Because I always...
There's never enough tension in Voyager.
I do like that that they're putting a bit of conflicts in.
But because we don't ever get to, because Species 8474 is so
unknowable at this point.
We don't understand the threat they are to anybody.
We don't understand, you know, what the balance of power shift
would be if they do wipe them out.
So there's no context to any of it.
It's just an idea.
Yeah, that's true.
That is true.
How do you make that decision?
Like, how can Chakotay be so sure that her action is morally
wrong?
Like, how can you know that?
Then back at her, like how can, how can she be so sure that, you
know, wiping them out is the right thing?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And in a way, like in a way, the way that she operates is
sometimes he's what I have to do to get people home.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, I'm going to kill some icky monsters who've already tried to
eat Harry Kim alive.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, I think it's reasonable of her to not spend too much time
interrogating.
This is great too.
And her reaction, the Northwest Passage.
So that that 100 now. 33 bio ships.
Yeah, we get to see what that is.
We saw it on the screen.
It was our salvation.
It's a blank space through Borg space that we can go through
because there's no Borg in it, and now we discover, well, of
course, there's no Borg in it because it's just full of these
bioships.
But you know, like in there, you just saw loads of those
buyerships coming pouring out of fluidic space, you know?
And that's quite an exciting idea.
But like it reminds me of, do you remember in Purgatory Shadow
when the wormhole opens at the end, and the Dominion ships come
pouring out, and then Cliff, it means something to the show that
we're watching it.
It's a massive threat.
Like what the hell does this mean?
Oh, boys, you might be destroyed.
Well, okay.
Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, because the DS9 episode is kind of
changing the political, the sort of geopolitical, you know, status
quo, and that's not going to happen on Voyager, this is just scary
monsters coming through a thing.
Wow, doesn't that look pretty?
But I did think that actually for a 2nd there where we had that
shot of the ship and then we had the shot of an 8472 in front of a
screen operating a screen from inside a bioship and stuff.
That stuff, that was weird and I liked that, you know.
I think that the 8472 are pretty... don't do it enough.
Do they?
No.
They don't do it enough. when they do it, it really sticks out.
Yeah, I mean, the show is just contend to put American actors in
latex and give them a number on the bow mask scale week after week
after week.
Do you know what I mean?
Like this is...
Imagine if the Beaumara turned out to be in those ships.
We said we'd be back and we're back.
Oh, they were so fucking shit, were they?
Oh, wait.
No, that's series four.
We haven't had them yet.
We haven't had the bowman yet.
Nathan, we go from the Bork to the Boma.
To the Boma.
Holy crap.
Wow.
Amazing But I do like the fact that they constantly come back to
Jane Way's decision to strand them in the Delta Quadrant
throughout the series run.
That's sort of like her, so they do it in night as well.
Do you remember where she's agonising at night because they're in
that dark space?
They do it here.
And like you said, they bring it up again and end game as well.
Yeah, yeah.
We get to re-mitigate it.
See, this is a beautifully lit scene too.
And the shot through the window, you know, where the windows are
made out of kind of slightly warped glass because it's old.
This is so annoying.
If they can do practical lighting, this good.
Yeah.
Is it just because it takes time?
I think so.
Do you remember when Beverly Crusher's fabulous Gothic house in
Subrosa?
was full of candles.
And we said, that looked great as well, you know.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, there could be more practical light, but I guess it
does take a while to light and it is difficult.
Yeah. basically saying, get rid of all that boring overhead light
in and just shove a load of candles in the sense.
Yeah, that's right.
I don't know how that works.
We'll have a bit of atmosphere.
So this is strange too, isn't it?
I'm not quite sure what's happening here.
Like there's talk of shadows and stuff like that, but I don't know
what's happening.
But what I do like is when he suggests, and it works quite well
doesn't it?
He suggests that, oh, this world's being created and replaced by
destroyed worlds in my imagination, you know, that's pretty good
because that's what's happening here.
But um, when he suggests praying. that she should pray, because
and I think that's so good, and her reaction to it is so great
particularly on an American TV show, when Americans are sort of
much more religious than other English speaking countries, to have
her reject that because she's a scientist.
I just don't think that would work for me and I think it's really
real.
I don't know if you remember.
In that sequence where in that sequence where the Dominion does
come pouring out of the wormhole, Kira just sort of turns on the
camera and goes, may the prophets forgive us.
She does break.
Yeah, and that's right. and that's the game we as a scientist.
We can do religion.
Yeah, yeah, we do do religion in DS9, but not here.
And I think, you know, it's only human beings.
It's only like human beings are not religious and other aliens are
I think.
Yeah, this where he says, look, you know, I'm a scientist, but
still sometimes I find myself kneeling in prayer.
And his plan, I think, is beautiful.
So he's going to deliver a little bronze statue to the monks and
he's going to take her with him and suggest going to the chapel.
I love it.
I think that's so good.
And look at her response.
It's beautiful.
Look.
She's not, she doesn't pity him.
She doesn't patronise him.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's terrific.
And so instead she's going to make a deal with the devil.
Which is, that's the decision that she ultimately makes, isn't
it?
She's got to work with the ball.
And that's a big idea as well.
Yeah.
But again, you know, for us as well, the Borg are a known
quantity.
So we've had them, end of series 3 of TNG, end of series 6, we've
had 1st contact.
We know the Borg well. at this point.
And so for us, there are known quantity.
And I think that they properly cell 8472 as more evil than the
Borg, don't you?
Here, they do here, and then we, the next time we see Species 8472
is in prey, where it's basically like an alien's ripoff, and
there's a damage.
Yeah, the hirogen are.
And then we don't see them again until series 5 and by that point
we probably should be well out of Species 847 space.
And they're just on like some fake Starfleet headquarters and they
want to negotiate.
And it's basically just writing staff just going, look, we're kind
of done with this, but we didn't tie it up. let's just do it.
And it's such a waste.
It's so typically Voyager to present us with the, you know, the
big bad and then just go, well, well, and then make it boring from
that now.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
You're terrible.
It's not all boring.
It's just mostly boring.
No, but look, and they give Tuvok, the security officer, that line
what will prevent them from saying yes, we'll do the deal and then
assimilating us anyway, and she's got an answer and he's doing it
properly, and there's not conflict, but there's a real proper sort
of presentation of alternative views.
It's so much more interesting than her standing up and saying what
we're going to do.
Um, yeah.
Yeah, I think she's, I think she's great.
I just want to say about the Borg in general, yeah, because I
think this really kickstarts Voyager's general emasculation and
embarrassing the Borg, because here they come across again, you
know, they're not the big bad in the Delta Quadra.
They're something that they've tried to bully and it's actually
more powerful than them and has given them a bloody nose.
Yeah.
So we've got a sort of a notch down from being the big, big bag
that they were.
But then we've got stuff like the ball kids coming in in series
6.
You know, and obviously we do 7 of 9 storylines, so that's like
well, this is proof that a ball person can actually be brought
back from the brink of being a zombie.
Yeah.
And then you've got Unimatrix 0 in series 7 where all along there
was this sort of rebellion collective, sort of within the
collective.
And it's just like it just gets worse and worse.
The ball becomes so kind of so much less of a threat.
But by the time we get to endgame, you're just like, oh, to the
point where in Unimatrix 0, they assimilate Janeway and Chewvok
and Balana, that's the cliffhanger, but almost Heller.
They almost tell us that, no, this is just, we're just playing at
this, right?
But they sell it as a good thing.
And then five minutes into the next episode.
They're like, right, well, we got away with that then.
You know. like, what happened to the Borg?
Yeah, fuck for Picard series 2, where they came back sort of scary
and weird and with that fabulous woman playing the ball queen and
they were doing sort of psychological mind games with Agnes and
it's all the stuff that Voyager could have been doing with the
Borg.
Instead of sort of ripping away any sense of menace that they
had.
Yeah, they weren't careful enough, were they?
It was, it's not bad that they kept going back to them.
Um, you know, maybe it starts, though, with descent.
I mean, we've talked about descent and it really fucks up the Borg
in a bad way as well and presents...
Maybe it starts with Hugh Borg.
Maybe it starts there.
Yeah, yeah, but I think that's a good episode because I think it's
a very Star Trekie episode where you take the weirdest, you know
most terrifying enemy we have and find some connection with it.
And I was thinking about that today, how great that is and how
descent ruins it, where, you know, they're going to send that
shape that's going to make the computers go crazy, but instead
they decide not to do that.
They just send Hugh back with an idea about what individuality
is.
And they hope that will spread.
And then, of course, dissent ruins it by saying, well, yes, it
spreads and it makes them all vulnerable to, you know, Jim Jones, a
k.a. law coming along and turning them into a cult.
But it's so weird because it didn't have to go down that way with
the ballwalk, I don't think.
Like, you know, I'm going to skip back to DS9 for a 2nd again and
say we had 5 seasons with the Dominion, where we kept going back
to the Dominion, and all they did was get, you know, more camp and
fabulous and amazing with every season that passed, you know?
Well, in fact, I think what's really good about the Dominion and
what they do very skilfully is they have entertaining scenes where
like Damar and Wayoon and and do kind of be in camp and silly and
those seeds are kind of played for laughs a bit.
Do you know what I mean?
Like they're played knowingly in a way.
But the Dominion is a credible threat the whole time.
It doesn't undermine the Dominion as a threat in any way.
And like maybe the intro...
Because we're told constantly that they're murdering 1000000s of
people.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, space peril.
But the, like, even the introduction of the Borg queen, um, in 1st
contact doesn't diminish them, I don't think, even though it
humanises them, even though we lose a little bit of the
incomprehensibility of the Borg, uh, which is a shame, but I think
that's really good, all of that Borg queen stuff in 1st contact is
very good.
But I just think that they're not careful enough.
It's not that they go back to the Borg well too frequently.
It's that they do it carelessly.
And here I think they get away with it because just the sheer
astonishment of how weird this situation is, you know, works
really well.
Look at that.
The annoying thing as well is all the different ways that they
explore.
Yeah, that's great.
Always just tidy compared to that queue.
I think it's big.
I think speaking of the enterprise was.
All those, all those different ways that they try and explore the
board, Unimatrix 0, the kids.
I don't fundamentally that they're not terrible ideas.
But in succession, It just leaves the ball impotent.
Yeah.
And then they try and sell them as that big threat in the last
episode.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think the problem is, I think the problem is letting, you
know, becoming too comfortable with them, like getting to know
them too well, I think.
Do you know what it is, I knew?
You know what the Doctor Who parallel is?
It's the Weeping Angels effect.
Yeah, every time you bring them back. diminishing returns.
Pretty much, yeah.
Pretty much.
Yeah.
Although, it doesn't quite work.
Yeah.
Nathan, you have 10 seconds to comply.
She's so good.
She's threatening to delete the doctor at this point.
So here she is.
This is so bad, isn't it?
It's so low effort.
And you can't see this listeners, but Nathan has this very effect
shot of the ball cube behind him right now.
Yep.
I'm actually, I hate doing.
You look much more am I mad at more convincingly by the Zoom
background image just projects me seamlessly onto this
background?
I think it's very...
You have recorded from a ball cube for this episode.
That's right.
It's so fucking cheap, isn't it?
Like, they can't even construct.
I do like that shot where you just see the 2 little drones.
Did you see them walking across us?
Yeah, yeah.
No, I just think it's shit.
Like, what are they like, what?
You know, I don't know.
Maybe it's the best they could do at the time.
No, but wouldn't a practical set have been better?
Like, why are they, why is she just projected against a thing?
money, isn't it?
Go back and watch Q Who?
And the shot where Rikers.
It's a match shot.
It's a painted shot and it looks way better than this.
Than that.
They've got a practical set.
It's really literally in front of it. yeah.
And then it sort of pulls away into a match shot.
Oh, this is terrific.
Can I say to you one thing, isn't it?
blow up, you ready?
That that cube.
I'm just going to say... da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da
da, da.
Yeah, real good. music is great.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Another... another win.
I think in terms of building up to a cliffhanger, this is very
well done.
You've got the ships pouring out.
Cliffhanger.
They're doing weird stuff with their electricity beams.
It's so weird.
Janeway's trapped on the ball queue. ever seen.
We're destroying a whole planet.
Like it's so huge.
And look, look at that.
The, the, um, the, like lava coming off the planet hits the ball
cube.
I can almost see Brian Fuller watching this going.
I can make Star Trek like this.
You know, visually impressive one day.
That's great.
And look, the, like, the planet blows up.
Voyagers being towed away.
Janeway's on the board.
Yeah, yeah.
It's all up for grabs here.
But it's also just a huge giant cartoon.
You know, we were making fun of making fun of Babylon 5.
But that looks so great because it is so weird.
And, you know, those bioships.
Do they look like the shadows?
I don't even, like I said, I've never heard of Babylon 5.
But, um, you know, the bioships are weird.
The way they behave is weird, all of that brown and strange
colours and stuff. really good.
There was criticisms because there are the Vorlons in Babylon 5
and they do look a bit like the bio ships and they do exist in
fluidic space.
Right, okay.
I think Star Trek, I don't think Star Trek is above looking over
its shoulder, you know, and going, well, we could do that, but
make it look better.
We could steal that.
Yeah.
But it's exciting, isn't it?
It's an exciting cliff, eh?
Oh, yeah.
I think it is a really good cliffhanger.
And I think one of the things that's unusual about it is that it's
a cliffhanger that doesn't, because what's the best of both worlds
Cliffhanger?
It's not a giant mental, like a giant gonzo special effect shot?
Is Riker saying fire on his boss?
You know, the ship that, you know, in response to Laquitas. no win
situation, isn't it?
That's what I love about that.
I remember watching it going, how, how?
How are they going to get out of this?
I was sort of screaming at the screen.
Whereas when I watched this, I remember I was just going, what's
going on?
Where the hell is this?
It is very different.
And the thing that's super weird is that it doesn't seem to have a
characters, but for once I don't care because it's so strange. and
so different from anything that we've ever seen.
That's exciting to me, I think.
Is this the best, Voyager?
season finale.
I don't know them well enough.
So I'm not quite sure.
People are going to think I'm mad because you know what my
favourite is.
My favourite is basics.
No, based on action.
Because you've got holding the baby on the Voyager Bridge as she
basically kicks them all off onto a planet.
And I know people hate the Kazon, but it really builds to like an
epic ending where how the hell is it?
Like when DS9 kicked everyone off the station at the end of five.
It's like a fundament. you feel like, well, the show's changed
forever.
Well, no, it hasn't.
Yeah, the show's under threat.
Like it's called Voyager.
How do we even use the same title sequence from now on?
So, like, it's a fundamental threat to the show as an entity, and
then we don't get to watch it if it's not there.
So I think that's a really good cliffhanger.
Um, I, I don't know.
Obviously that Unimatrix 0 cliffhanger with the 3 assimilated crew
members is pathetic and looks stupid.
Like it's a bad final shot.
Equinox has a, it has a terrible cliff.
Interesting.
But it's a really good episode.
I think it's probably a better episode than this because having
that contrast with another ship, there's been in exactly the same
situation, but made all the wrong moves and it's falling apart and
you think you're looking at that ship going, well, we could be
watching that.
That sounds much more interesting than Voyager.
Is hope and fear is that one where...
Yeah, I know.
I don't know.
I think it bookends this season well.
And one of the things it does is it goes back and examines
Janeway's decision to team up with the Borg.
And it has consequences for someone and that's a strange
interesting alien who seems quite likeable and you've got a lovely
new set. you know, and all of that sort of thing.
You know, I don't mind.
So plotting, though.
It's like compared to this, which feels like it's got a bit of
oomph.
It really does plod that one.
Yeah, but I think their decision instead of doing a big giant
cliffhanger to do a slightly quieter ending that's a little bit
introspective.
I think that's not a bad call, and maybe it doesn't come off, and
you know, then the following year they have to do a big dumb
cliffhanger, and then the following year they have to do an even
worse one.
But I hope it's in the right place.
It's in the right place.
I just get very bored.
Bored in a way that I'm not watching this.
No.
Yeah, that's true.
This is for the 1st time ever.
And I'm going to say this about part 2 as well.
It's one of the things I love about part 2 is at the end, they
don't reset.
We're still in Borg space.
So just for a couple of episodes.
Voyager dares to be.
No, but it's three, isn't it?
It's Scorpion, Scorpion part 2 and the Gift for 3 episodes.
It's daring to say we're shifting the status quo.
We're gonna do something a bit more dynamic.
It's a peak. a little peek into a window of what Voyager could
have been.
Yeah.
Do you not think it's very interesting that the creators of both
Deep Space 9 and Voyager at the end of series 3 said this show
needs a kick out the arse and we have got to change things?
And I would probably say with DS9, they managed to create an
entire season that up the ante considerably.
I think with Voyager, they manage 3 episodes, but you know, props
for that.
So I'll count it in then.
Let's go Okay, 5, 4, 32, one, and we're off.
Oh.
Okay, last time on Star Trek Voyager.
Oh, do we, we don't get the Think Good Thoughts line, which is a
shame.
Um, Yeah.
Yeah.
I think this falls to pieces.
You think it's the director?
I think I could feel a definite shift in the direction between
episode one and episode two.
Suddenly, and I know you weren't that impressed with that
exploration of the ball ship.
But there was some attempt to do moody lighting and things like
that.
You watch the Borg, ship scenes.
I know they're just extended dialogue scenes in this episode.
So they're not going for suspense, but it's very flat sort of
green lighting.
Oh no, we're back to that dread.
Look, we're at the beginning of the season.
You got some money.
CSOJ went into a better backdrop.
Come on.
Oh, that looks even worse than it did last year.
Dear, oh dear.
Yeah, so okay.
I think in, in story terms, I think there isn't, there isn't
attempt to sort of explore the conflict between Jane Weird
Chakotay here because Chakotay disobeys her, doesn't he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I don't buy why he does that.
I don't know why he disobeys her.
For the drama, Nathan.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But so he doesn't have a good character motivation for it.
Um, so, like, actually, I think that her on the screen with the
Borg thing in the background is better than last.
It's still pretty bad though.
Yeah, but I do think it is better than the last episode.
Uh, yeah.
Yeah, I think, I don't know what it is.
They closer up on that computer thing.
It is annoying that they do this, you know.
They left us in a, you know, an impossible situation full of
danger, and anything could happen, and then Jemma just pops up and
goes, well, I've sorted that out now, you know, we're all okay.
Some might say that's anticlimactic.
Well, except that, you know, all that requires us is to
reinterpret what we saw at the end of the last episode.
So what we saw at the end of the last episode was the was Voyager
being dragged away by the cube.
Yeah, out of harm's way.
Um, you know, after a Borg planet was destroyed.
And now the episode, this episode's about something different.
This episode's now about the conflict between Janeway and
Jakotay.
And so it's already been established that the Chakose is a bit
nervous about this deal.
Yeah, but I don't understand why the moment he's in charge, he
disobeys her.
And I think that's disloyal into a bad core.
Best of both worlds, part 2 where Riker spends ages agonising.
And there's that fabulous scene with Gynon, where she goes, well
the card's gone.
I've accepted he's gone.
You've got to accept he's gone.
But it's sort of like half an episode before he can actually do
anything because because he respects himself. you're right.
Chakotay immediately just goes, well, that's not what I would do.
She says, all right, she's asleep.
I'm going to go and do the thing.
And it's just like she's like, she's unconscious.
She's sort of injured and stuff.
I don't know why he thinks it's okay to do that.
And I don't like, you know, we see people disobey their superior
offices and stuff on Voyager all the time.
It happened in Picard season three.
You know, that's not the problem. from a character point of view
or from his viewpoint.
I don't know why he does it. why he has so little faith in the
deal.
I don't remember if you remember, it's the very thing why Ron
Moore stepped onto Voyager and then stepped off again straight
away because the 1st episode he got was Equinox 2 where Janeway
goes on this mad manhunt after ransom to the point where she's
threatening to suck people out of airlocks and things like this
and torturing people.
And he's like why is she doing this?
And they're all going, well, you know, there's a really exciting
scene.
Exciting.
Why, what's her motivation?
And he's like, oh, you guys, I just can't get on board with that.
Well, look, can I regale you with a quote from director Winrich
Cobb?
Is that how you say it, Colby?
Oh, this is, yeah, Winrick.
Rick, Rick Coleman.
The last time we saw him, he was directing the siege of AR 558.
And he directed all good things, I think.
He did?
Yes, he did.
He gets some big episodes.
So what he says about the Jane Wedge Kote conflict is, I pushed
for it because I wanted to explore the relationship between a
disabled commander and her 2nd in command and the military
perspective on what you would do if your 2nd in line disagrees
with the 1st in line and the 1st in line is out.
Though the orders she left were very clear.
We didn't result with a happy ending and they don't just say, well
our friendship has to survive.
I wanted a real dressing down and I wanted to make sure that
everybody knew that what Chakotay did was a court-martial
offence.
I never got that far, but actress Kate Mulgrew and I kept pushing
Brannan Bragger on the idea that we had to show a conflict and
that conflicts don't have to be resolved.
Yeah.
It looks like the actors and the director understood the drama
better than the writer.
Yeah, and in fact, what they do, what they do, the reason that
they throw it away is they say, um, you know, 7 said that our
conflict would be our downfall, the fact that we have conflict and
that we all have to have our own opinions and stuff, that's a
weakness, uh, and, um, we need to show her that in fact, that's
our strength.
But it just doesn't land.
And I'm kind of happy, like one of the things that I like in drama
is when a character forgives another character, without making
them abase themselves, do you know what I mean, without
humiliating them, without requiring them to apologise, someone
loves someone enough to just forgive them and let it go.
But we don't get that here either.
They just kind of bury it.
Do you remember when Odo betrays Kira in behind the lines?
Do you remember, he's off having it off with a female changeling
whilst they're trying to stable the station?
And she says to her in the next episode, you know, oh, no, we are
way past sorry.
And that Dominion little arc ends.
They've got the station back, but they've still got this
unresolved tension.
Then it's the Daxel War wedding episode and Kira and Odo.
And they just, they go into a cupboard.
No, they go into a cupboard.
You're in the pie and then Dax can hear them talking and she says
oh, what are you doing in there?
We've just been talking.
We're all right now.
And they come out.
That's how you do it.
Yeah, yeah, don't make us watch it is the important thing.
I thought you were going to say that they'd been fucking in the
cupboard. it was all forgiven.
Could you imagine?
there a scene in this, though, where Jakotay says, sorry. can't
remember.
Does he apologise?
No, I don't think there is.
And I think that's a problem.
Yeah.
And where, why does he disagree with it?
He does say to her it's wrong, doesn't he?
He says, this is wrong.
We don't know what the consequences are going to be. which is true
of everything.
Like, that's a dumb argument.
We don't know what the consequences are going to be.
We don't know what the consequences of anything. are going to be.
Like if it's wrong to do something where you're not sure what the
consequences are.
Well, you know that's just stupid.
And then he, you know, he tells the scorpion story which everyone
knows and we're forced to sit through anyway.
I love the fact it's not even a dreadful metaphor that they've
made up for the episode.
No, no.
I don't think it works.
I just don't think it works.
They do try and betray...
Boy, just crew. once they've got what they want. 7 of 9 does say
you know, well, I'll see it, we're gonna have.
We can have your shit now as well.
So he's not entirely wrong.
No, that's right.
And he does get to, um, and that is the scorpion, isn't it?
It's stinging you.
It just can't help itself.
Kind of having your cake and eating it because Jane weighs right
in the they do need to work together and that is the solution.
And Chakotay is right because once the solution is found, the ball
try and turn on them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Which which is, you know, like, it would be a bit disappointing if
they didn't, actually.
If they went, well, thank you very much.
We're off.
Yeah, yeah, we're off now.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
That would kind of.
Yes.
So this is kind of the we're about to have a seismic shift in
Voyager this very soon.
The creation of 7 is kind of happening here and it's actually, um
it's Janeway's idea, isn't it?
Like it's her idea.
Like choose a representative.
I think this is the 2nd best decision they made on boys.
The 1st was the female captain and K-Moll group.
But essentially, and and what it leads to in this season and
beyond.
It's just loads of wonderful scenes of excellent actresses working
together.
Roxanne Dawson, Jerry Ryan, Kate Mulgrew.
Yep.
And just being brilliant.
The writing's not always there, but the acting is.
No.
Well, that's right.
And those 3 are all terrific, I think. you know, their their
standouts and, you know, the best Robert, obviously, and Tim Ross
is pretty great.
All they needed was to keep Sesker on and imagine the 4 of them
together in a thing.
Well, she does come back.
Not enough.
She will come back once more.
Never enough, Nathan.
Hello, Chakotay.
Here we go.
Got your baby here.
Do you see what I mean about the lighting?
I know this is a functioning ball cube.
But this is very flat.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know why they're going for yellow.
In both episodes, they go for yellow, and we all know the colour
for Borg is green.
I don't know why they're going for yellow.
It's a sort of it's an ugly colour to look at, isn't it?
They do get it right, though.
I think in sort of dark frontier.
They going for the same colour scheme, but they do it in a much
more visual, very sort of dramatic way.
Do you know, I haven't watched Dark Frontier for so long.
It may pop up on the randomiser at some point.
It may.
That would be interesting.
Would you like to hear from Jerry Ryan herself about recording
this episode?
She's here.
It never occurred to me that I'd be playing a full Borg, but any
substantial period of time.
But that's exactly what I did in the 1st 2 episodes.
All I knew or thought was that other than the Borg.
Oh, sorry, other than the ball queen, the Borg hardly speak.
They'd given me 1st contract to watch, but already said to me
ignore what the ball queen does in that because 7 of 9 is a
hybrid.
Yeah.
When the 1st script came out to me, I just panicked, called the
writers and said, what is this?
I didn't know I'd have to talk.
I was completely at a loss.
What am I doing?
She said.
You've got give me some kind of a clue.
The answer was, we're creating something new.
The character is a whole new alien.
Okay.
That's all she got.
I think she does really well.
Like, if that's it.
If she gets nothing, she's good in this scene, don't you think?
Like the arrogance, which is what she settles on, the arrogance
like the way she dismisses them.
It's good.
I think it's a little one though. is all.
Sure.
I think pretty much story, isn't it?
You have to start from one note.
You know, we talk about sort of the murder she wrote, guest actor
of the week.
I think I think that sort of actor could play this role.
It's when she's then human and having to deliver the sort of cross
between the Borg and the human.
That's when you need a skilled actress.
And when she really...
Also the thing that I think is great is that she actually does
comedy well, don't you think?
Like she's, she can be funny.
She's hilarious.
I'll never, ever stop talking about that scene where she's playing
Robert Picardo.
Oh yeah, that's so great.
So good.
No, I would have seen in someone to watch over me. where she goes
up to the fella and goes, you're going on a date with me.
All right.
Yeah Like it.
When she stopped singing in, um, in, is it the killing game?
She stops singing and then she she kind of comes to and goes, I
must discontinue this activity and then walks off because she
doesn't even know what to call it.
So good.
All right.
So Kess is here still, somehow, she's still with us on the show.
We have said that we do quite like cares when they remember that
she's there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think she's great, and I think her and the
doctor are very good as well.
I think very good together.
I think people would dismiss this, but I think the gift is one of
the best Voyager episodes, and I think because the emphasis is on
Janeway and 7 and cares.
And there's some seriously good acting going on in that episode.
And it's just a character piece.
Apart from that beer, the game wherever, which gets flung.
Yeah.
Yeah, where we go straight back to the status quo anti and don't
have to deal with any of this.
We just fling us into some other place altogether and we don't
have to deal with the consequences.
But, I think what's really good about the gift too is just that
sudden thing where she just has to go, you know, and and Kate's
really quite distressed by that.
And, there's a secret.
It's really not at all what they would have wanted.
It's so good.
Do you remember where she's in a sort of pink nighty when Kez
comes to visit her and she's holding her face because she knows
she's going to go.
It's like the last time she's gonna see it.
It's so gorgeous.
I've got one last quote here from Jerry Ryan.
Because it gives us a clue into sort of what she eventually tapped
into to play the ball drone.
She said, I was absolutely panic stricken.
And I begged Win Rich Colby for advice.
I managed to find her voice and exactly what it was that made her
tick when Rick Colby helped me to figure it out.
He gave me the image of a Prussian general.
He said, she's not a robot and she's not a ball queen.
She's not that free, but she has this military bearing and the
presence of a Prussian general.
So that's what she's like.
Rick Colby speaks with a German accent, I think.
I'm sure that I've seen him interviewed.
That's brilliant, and that is exactly it.
It is the imperiousness, the contempt, the inflexibility, the kind
of rigid certainty that she's correct.
And like this threat, the way she delivers this threat.
And there is a little bit of a sneer behind the thread.
It's not affectless.
She isn't a robot.
I think, I think, I think she's nailing it straight away.
Go ahead and watch the gift after this.
She's even better because she's really angry.
But this decision's being made for her.
But still within the same confines of that Borg logic.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, people compare her to data or Spock, you know, the
character on the Star Trek episode who has some weird relationship
with humanity, you know, and data it wants to be human and and, you
know, 7 finds herself becoming human against her will and has to
deal with all of that.
But I do think that...
Well, I was going to say that in 90s trek, I think they pretty
much got it spot on when they were casting irregulars, even if
those regulars had to sort of feel their way into the roles for a
couple of years.
Well, yeah.
I mean, me, they lucked out with Jerry Ryan.
Oh yeah.
Like, by all accounts, they had, they were thinking about 7 and 9
from Scorpion part one, but they refused to put her in Scorpion
part one because they wanted the entire summer to do casting
auditions.
Wow.
So they really, really sort of worked on this.
Oh, I, this was about these scenes with the, the, the, the, alcoves
inside Voyager.
This was the best innovation they did because it stays, doesn't
it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But I mean, that whole sequence back then with the, with the, the
ships, the bioships attacking our cube. finally, you know, we've
had, what, not quite half the episode, a 3rd of the episode, where
they haven't been in it.
You know, we've just been negotiating with the Borg and now here
they are back again.
Yeah, and just the surprise, the surprise of them beaming over.
How did how did all of this machinery appear on Voyager?
Did the ball just send it all over?
They beat it?
Yeah, yeah.
They beamed them over before him.
No thing was being destroyed.
Mind you, the other really, really great moment in this. is where
all the Borgs get sucked out into space.
I love that.
Except she holds onto a thing.
We've been there before and dramatis persona.
If you hold onto a console with your fingers, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
It's just a lie for you.
And so Janeway is unconscious so it's time to completely just
annul a deal.
Like, what a dickhead, honestly.
Yeah.
Like, yeah, I do this a lot, but DS9 would give you that scene at
the end. where the person would be dressed down and said, you do
this again in your, you know, I'll send you back to the academy.
I also think there's something unpleasant about it that it
undermines his character and that scene, that beautiful scene in
episode one where she says how much her, you know, the
relationship means to her.
Like having him betray that makes him an asshole.
That's the other thing as well.
And because he's got, like we've said before, there is no
substance to his decision. just a gut feeling.
He's prepared to sacrifice that longstanding relationship he's got
with somebody who admires.
Yeah.
But, you know, like, have you been?
Yeah, have you been in a hierarchy before where you have a boss?
He was a market, ask you to do things you don't agree with?
Like, it's, yeah, it's crazy.
But doesn't she beg him now?
Doesn't she say no?
Keep going with the Borg.
Yes, trust the deal.
That makes it seem even worse.
Yeah, yeah much worse.
It's so it's stupid.
It's am fisted.
But do you know what?
There's no way for him to come out of this good.
Like, you know, unlike your Voyager of the week episode.
It has given us something to rail against him.
We are feeling something about this material.
Yeah, yeah.
Even if it's just feel that it's idiotic.
Yeah.
No, no, no.
I think this is a poorly written central thing and it spoils this
episode because he's behaving the way he behaves for no reason and
he's and he's doing a bad thing and there are no consequences.
Yeah, well, I think a lot of Voyager episodes do that, though.
This is unfortunately, this is a pivotal one.
That's why it's sort of...
More obvious.
It's just the what has, if what had gone wrong.
If what had gone wrong. proved that Chakotay was right.
Right?
If Chakotay's thought that the ball could be trusted, and then the
Borg do a bad thing, right?
And that's why she's taken out, but she says, please try to repair
the relationship and he tries but fails.
Do you know what I mean?
If he was in some way validated by what had gone on.
But it's just the moment 8472 attack and she's disabled.
He's right, right, the deal's over, even though the deal hadn't
been failing.
Nothing had gone wrong with the deal.
I think they think...
In fact, the conflict...
The conflict's enough.
The fact that they're at each other.
That's dramatic enough.
Yeah.
We don't we don't know these characters enough for these decisions
to make any sense.
That's it.
Well, I just think, but I think the decisions don't make sense and
they're not thought through and I think that undermines it.
I think that that what makes this central, that's what makes this
central con... conflict.
And that's what makes the 7 Janeway relationship so good is that
it's such a simple premise.
She's chosen to turn her into a human being.
She's pissed about that and everything that she's having to
experience for the 1st time.
We understand seven.
We understand Janeway.
We know why the decisions have been made, and there's just natural
conflict there.
Plus the actors are at, you know, we know the behind the scenes
here as well.
It's sizzling for a reason.
So there's something here, isn't there?
Maybe it's the thing where 7 confronts him and says, yeah, like
she says we need to change the deal because we've lost the chip or
whatever, and he says, all right, you can have the non-of probes
and then piss off or whatever.
Strange to think, you know, that there'll be snog in in a couple
of seasons time.
Yeah, I thought that too.
Look, look how ineffectual Chakotay looks in Janeway seat.
He looks like a very small man in her seat.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Look at his body language.
He sort of hunched, doesn't he?
Yeah.
I don't think he was ever meant for the captain's chair, Nathan.
No, I think you're right.
That is actually it.
And it's, I don't know.
Look at everybody around the table.
I think any of them agree with him.
They're all looking at each other like, are we doing this?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's funny, isn't it?
It is a funny reaction.
I think it's even more explicit, you know, in Equinox part 2, where
Chakotay is on the verge of staging a coup on Voyager because
Janeway is behaving...
Yeah.
But here she wasn't.
I mean, he or she wasn't.
She was doing something that he didn't agree with, but...
Be nice to her, though, because he said it in Scorpion part one
you're the captain.
I'll follow your orders.
Even after he said, I don't agree with you.
Yeah.
Look at that makeup.
I mean, I quite like him.
I quite like that threat and you know, there are times when the
medium Robert, you know, has a bit of steel and delivers some, you
know, lines like that.
Which Roberts, the median, Robert, is that Robert Belgian?
He's the Beltrans, the made it, Robert.
So there's the worst, Robert, the best, Robert, and Beltran.
I think I think pretty much series one and 2 is where we see his
acting.
And after that, he just phoned out.
Checks out.
Yeah.
But then I think the same with Tim Ross, and I think Tim Ross is a
better actor, but he's just so fed up of saying churning out the
same lines that...
Yeah, but I think, I mean, I think that there's kind of just a
genuine problem that people don't think to write for him or he
just doesn't, I don't know what the problem is because he's so
good.
And whilst he's so great.
I do think, you know, everybody should get a fair stab of good
writing in an ensemble.
If they are going to focus and give the best stuff to the women
I'm not going to complain.
That's okay.
Yeah, no, that's especially when it's these women.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, that's the thing they've done on Discovery too, isn't
it?
Like just whole scenes where everyone on the bridge is a woman.
Do you not remember that amazing scene in Dark Frontier?
The Cliffhanger, where they're in the ball ship, Janeway and 7, and
the ball queen's saying, you know, come back to us, 709, and J, and
7 goes, you know, I'm staying, and Janeway goes, I'm not leaving
here without you, and she's got a gun in her face, and 7 goes, then
you will be assimilated.
I mean, it's peak drama, Avoyager, awesome.
I really need to watch that again.
Why what?
What, there's ball cubes being sliced apart?
Oh, yeah.
That's just, it's been a while.
It is a great cartoon, that one, isn't it?
Bad shot.
I just felt as well, like, you know...
With one, I felt as if it did have some pace to it and it was
building up to the climax.
Whereas I just felt too.
There was no pace.
It just sort of rumbled along.
And then ended...
Yeah, although I like these Borg, like the, you know, this set.
I know we're on in a cargo bay with those regeneration chambers
and stuff, but I think they look better.
Still all this yellow.
Why is everyone, do you know what, lighting everything yellow?
Do you remember the pacing of, um...
Imogen the sun and shutters and symbols?
images of sandwiches were very quiet and then shadows and symbols
where you had those free plots and they were all going on and then
it ended up with that big explosion of the shipyard.
I think that's the better approach, you know, sort of start slow
build to big rather than build up, have a big beginning and then
just sort of fritter out.
Well, I mean, they kind of do that in best of both worlds and the
reason is, of course, well known that they literally had no more
idea how they were going to get out of it than you did when you
were watching it for the 1st time.
It's just like, oh shit, that was really good.
What do we do now?
And they kind of only barely...
That sleep ending.
Because they're a high moist. makes perfect sense.
It does make sense, but you can't pull it again, can you?
Like, you can't do it every time.
Oh, look, this I love this bit.
I know, I know 7 of 9 survives, but look at these borg bodies been
sucked out into space.
So good, isn't it?
Actually, Oh, that's so funny.
You know, Jerry Wright.
Jerry Ryan must have been like, what the fuck have I signed up
for?
He's being dragged along a Jeffrey's suit and all those
prosthetics.
Yeah, yeah, by her by her high heels, I think, probably.
But that, that little circular thing that opens in the, in the
side of Voyager that we never see again that is apparently just
there for that scene, it's the Borg ejection door that just
appears once.
The amount of times we meet the ball, you know.
Deploy the Borg ejection door.
Or get Jackson door.
And then this, so now we're going into fluidic space.
I think this fish is so weird and unknowable.
And instead it's just a sort of gloopy mist.
Yeah, we're eating kind of gel. of some sort.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think it's weirder, you know, when they go into that space with
no stars.
And it's just black, you know?
Yeah, it's like they're in sort of weird jelly.
I mean, I kind of like it.
It is something and it is different from what we've had.
Have we ever had that?
We go into a, yeah.
Jelly's all right.
That kind of looks like it's lime and orange.
But I suppose they are.
But like, I know Voyager is sort of airtight.
It'd be great, you know, if suddenly it starts seeping into the
ship, you know?
Did she?
Did 77 just came over the comms and ordered Commander Chakotay to
report to the cargo bag.
Nathan, that's pretty much how she's characterised for the next 4
years.
It's wonderful, isn't it?
It's awesome.
I have some much needed exposition to deliver.
There's loads of wonderful scenes, you know.
These really hot scenes between her and Bilal Torres, where she
just goes to engineering and just, you know, oh, well, I wanted to
use this part of engineering.
I didn't think to ask you, you know?
I know.
Yeah, yeah.
Because she's got...
Although, do you remember the scene where she says to Sarah, Sarah
and Tom Paris about them having sex?
Do remember that?
Where she's like, she goes, what the hell do you know what we're
doing in our quarters?
And she goes, there's nobody on deck 6 that doesn't know what's
going on in your order.
That's a great line. think I remember that.
Oh, even better.
Do you remember the best Borg line ever is when Neelix goes, they
will become whatever we want them to become.
And Bilada Torres goes, ooh, how Starfleet of you?
Well, which can be very funny, you know, when he wants to be.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Gosh, she's good.
She's really great here.
She's absolutely in charge of this scene, isn't she?
Wow.
Look if she's playing against.
Of course she is.
Well, no, she's playing against she's playing against him.
I would have loved, I would have loved for Chewbok to have
just...
I don't want to, I don't want to do Spock again and have him half
human.
Just let him display emotion a bit more.
Well, no, I think that having him show warmth in his way with, I
just think making him Janeway's confident would have been the
thing to do.
The trouble with this is everyone's their job, you know, like, you
know, when it starts with my key and we have relationships between
ourselves and stuff like that.
But basically, eventually everyone's their job.
Oh, here we go.
But that relationship here we go.
Oh, is this where they, she gives him a dressing down.
She's got I hope so.
She should punch you in the face.
This is a good scene.
Just for how she acts there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The doctor's brought me up to speech, you go today, and I'm going
to tell you now you are dead.
It's basically what she say.
That would have been a lot better.
I do like the deactivate the thing and he kind of goes, yeah, all
right, I'll go.
I'll go.
This is a private moment.
Yeah, yeah.
It's so lame.
Oh my god, she says, you never trust me.
The reasons are so poor.
You were just waiting for an opportunity to countermand my
decision.
Yes.
Yeah, it's really like all of that is good and it's fair enough.
Um, Yeah.
Wow.
Oh, I think that's his ace, isn't it?
That he says they started it.
They started on Species 8472.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They're responsible for this.
And she and you want to work with them.
You can see her processing that.
Do not what I mean?
She takes a little moment and she processes it and walks away.
You know what she says?
It is kind of a Trump car.
She goes?
No.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
She's made her decision.
And I, you know what?
I admire that.
There's something a bit Maggie Thatcher about her, you know.
She's made a she might have made a terrible decision, but she's
going to stick by it.
No, no.
I mean, she is sticking by the decision and she's right.
And do you know what I mean?
She's in charge and he wasn't like she didn't die.
He didn't take over.
You know, she told him to do a thing.
And because she was unconscious, that doesn't mean that he doesn't
have to do the thing, you know?
I did like that like.
It's a very voyager light, but where she goes, there's 2 wars
happening here out there.
That's a little bit shit.
Now we get the thing where it's just like, let's forget about it.
And this is like this isn't about them anymore.
Do you know what I mean?
This isn't about you and me, Chakotay.
This is about, you know, how the plot's working and stuff and we
need to show show them that our individuality is not a weakness or
whatever.
So we never resolve this.
We've had our moment of tension, Shakosay.
Now let's get together and fix the plot.
Yes, I know.
So they throw it away.
Like they wreck the ending.
Not only is the conflict is quoted in memory alpha of saying that
they think this, this doesn't, this gets picked up later and this
continues.
I'm like, no, it doesn't.
And then in the next episode, they're best mates again.
Yeah, yeah.
No, it's amazing.
And the same thing.
Equinox part 2 because they seriously clash in that one.
It's explosive.
And then in the next episode, it's what survival instinct, and
he's in her quarters, and they're like, well, let's go and have
some fun on this space station.
What?
Yeah.
I think that's bad.
And remember how strange new worlds does this where it is
absolutely not serialised, but the characters remember their
previous adventures and there are consequences in their
relationships.
But how deep Space 9 does this at the same time.
Yeah, which is available to them.
I said to you, Senator Cretak and Kira in the next episode where
just have a nice trip.
Yeah, all right, cheers.
Yeah, I mean, they could have done it.
You can still do standalone episodes and not throw away the
character work.
But they're not interested in it and they're aggressively not
interested in it.
And it's not good enough.
It was just passable in Star Trek the Next Generation.
There is one character that they allow this to happen with in
Voyager, and that's seven.
And that continuing storyline and that grudge that she has and how
that softens, you know.
I don't know if it's enough when you've got a cast of 8 to just
give one person, you know.
That's right.
You, you remember the Borg things on the, on the model, like on
the, on the exterior, the Borg modifications on the exterior of
the ship and how they're still there at the beginning of the
game?
That was where I got really excited and I was like, ooh.
Yeah, I was so disappointed when they got rid of them.
Like, again, you know, like I'm watching it in as close to real
time as the video releases allow or whatever.
I can't even remember how I'm watching it now.
Um, but I was so disappointed.
It's exactly the same way I failed.
After a time to stand in series 6 of DF 9.
You remember the Demo Gemadar ship that they're on, is damaged and
floating through space.
And then the next episode starts and it's still floating through
Dominions.
I'm like what is going on?
This is not this place. not being, you know, but obviously they
ran with that for 6 episodes.
Yeah.
Yeah, like a 3rd of the season, a 4 quarter of the season or
something.
It's pretty amazing But, you know, we have picked at this a lot.
But I still maintain, this is a good glimpse into what Voyager
could have been if they had some of the sort of Battle Star
Galactica does.
Yeah.
And it would have been, but it probably would have been more
exciting, a bit more suspenseful to watch.
Yeah, but I think, you know, if their ambition is just to be an
entertaining 45 minutes of Star Trek. comes out every week.
That's fine.
Well, I don't know that they do it well.
I think that, well, I think that Strange New World shows you that
there's a better version of that available, that a better version
of that can exist.
To be fair, there has only been 10 episodes of Strange New Worlds
and there are 179 episodes of Voyager.
Yeah, that is true.
It may it may sink in series 2 for all you know.
I don't think it will but you never know.
No, no, no.
But do you know what I mean?
Like that way of doing a show that isn't heavily serialised, I
think that works very well.
Do you remember when we go down to the ocean planet in series 5 of
Voyager?
And it's all got, it's got like a massive underworld city.
It looks incredible.
It's far more visually exciting than this influence space.
I actually think that this looks okay.
I like the I like the bioships blowing up.
I think they look great.
Jerry Roy just got a shot of Jerry with a thing coming out of her
eye.
I quite resist, putting her hands on her hip, so she's standing on
the bridge in her full Borg regalia.
She's like, I'm a powerful Borg bitch, all right?
So great.
I don't think so.
I noticed the simmering tension between Kate Mulgar and Jerry Ryan
yeah.
The boy is coming.
No, no.
I think it's a strength.
I absolutely think it's a strength.
But one of the things that I like about the fact that 7 has come
back after so many, you know, after decades and is playing the
character again, that Jerry's come back and is doing that, is she
had a miserable time.
Yes, you know.
And she does say that on the show.
Yeah, that this was not fun and that Kate wasn't very nice to her
and stuff like that.
And now it's, you know, she's had a great experience and has been
in a very good version of Star Trek.
You know, you know, I'm really happy about that.
Well, I just think as well...
They've come back and they've given her that sort of Kursman trick
naturalistic dialogue that everybody has.
Nobody talks like 90s trek anymore.
And thank God.
But she's still also, she also still gets, you know, colloquialisms
and things wrong and stuff.
She does.
I think the real punch the air moment was when she turned around
to, um, was it short?
When she turned around, she won't, no, my name is 7 of nine.
That was a correct moment.
Really good.
You know what, Nathan?
This might be a backhanded compliment to Picard series 3, but I
actually think 7 might have been the best thing in that season.
She is really good in it.
She is great.
But so is count...
And I'm super ple like, you know, in stark contrast to where she
started off.
Look at where she ends.
She's helming the flagship of the Federation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it's so exciting, isn't it?
It's super.
And what is lovely is that you can watch these 4 seasons and see
how she got there, you know, like technically she's she's had her
own 7 year run now.
Yeah, exactly.
What about this?
What about Bridge Chakotay Scorpion?
Oh, I like that.
I do too.
And it's a little bit like the trick that they pull in the Sesca
episode.
What was that one?
The one that we did, um, uh, the changing relationship, state of
flux.
You know, where they already had this planned in the background
but we didn't get to see that.
I hate to bring this up, but one of the defining moments of
Babylon 5, though, is where in a moment where it all looks lost
and the commander goes, you know, so-and-so to so-and-so, and it
says a word like that, and then we cut to a load of telepaths, all
in a circle.
It's exactly the same thing. they are definitely looking at
Babylon 5, but it's still a cool moment.
But I mean, this, but this is a thing they've done before.
And also, it shows us that in the background that Janeway and
Shakota have been working together.
Do you know what I mean?
They've thought up this plan.
Oh, this is it?
He's volunteered to go along with it. disconnected from the hive.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yep, yep.
Yeah, that's a great moment too.
And having heard Janeway coming in the background and she's got
her slightly dishevelled post-battle hair happening.
Which always looks great.
Wait for the year of hell.
You know we're in the shit then when her hair's all over the
place.
This is actually my favourite Janeway hair.
This one.
Oh, I like it when it's down and short.
No, she just looks too much like any American woman on TV.
That's the problem.
I like it when it's longer and tied up at the back. or yeah, that's
better and that's better than the season one here.
Oh, look, and now we're back in in. oh I love this.
In fact, I think the shame is where they explain what's going on
in dialogue.
I think the idea that she's sitting in Da Vinci's study, writing
out her captain's log by hand.
And because she's in a computer simulation, that works just as
well as dictating it does.
And because she's had days of Borg and shit, she just wants to do
an analogue, you know, like captain's log, but then she has to
explain it to us because we're Star Trek fans and we can't do
subtext.
It feels more human somehow.
You've even got your hand on your face like she does.
But I think that's a shame, that is a problem with Star Trek
because I was there admiring how great that scene was only to then
run into Janeway, explaining the scene to Chacosa, like we were
all.
I think this is pre- we trust the audience to keep up.
Yeah, 0 yeah.
I think that's a big problem with 90s Streak as well.
It doesn't do some text.
It doesn't do nuance.
It doesn't matter.
That's the worst culprit for that.
They've got loads of plot they've got to remind people of in every
episode.
Not a time we destroyed that shipyard.
Yeah, it is a bit of a shame.
It is a bit of shame.
In retrospect, I guess the fact that the doctor has a handy Borg
hand lying around in part one without us having a lengthy
explanation about how it got there is a bit of a mercy.
You should be thanking our lucky start.
I mean, I'll tell you what, we go.
You and I, we...
Fuck off.
Disobeying your orders was one of the most difficult things I ever
had to do.
No, the point is that you didn't have to do it, Chakotay, you big
prick.
I didn't do it.
Without what she said.
You were like, what?
Yeah, that's right.
Because I'm conscious now.
You just sort of eased straight into it.
I'm taking control.
Yeah, no, he walks out of Sick Bay rubbing his hands waiting to
countermand something.
It's terrible.
This is a great ending on seven.
Yeah.
Actually, no, it's very unfortunately, you know, because you've
got such big boobs, the close-up on her here.
We're not looking at her face.
But I really, really like that shot because that's just how it
ends.
It just ends with that shot on her.
So it's just ending inviting us to say what's going to happen
next.
And I think even though we just closes on that question.
I think that's a really bold move.
They could have brought in any kind of a regular.
You know, we popped off to this planet and it's the Beaumar of the
week or something, you know, that's going to hang around.
But it's, it's something that Star Trek has done before and that's
making Wharf a regular on the bridge in series one of Star Trek
the Next Generation when he's a Klingon.
And then there's a Ferengi on the bridge in all good things.
You know.
So we bring people who were our enemies aboard, like we make
connections.
And so doing it with the Borg is absolutely a thing that had to
happen.
And I think they do it well.
It's a premise with a character.
But it's just, it's inbuilt with interesting things.
It's very unvoyage-like.
Yeah, yeah.
And they really exploit it.
They properly exploit it.
Like they know that they're onto something really good.
They spend a lot of time telling stories about her and it gives
the show a shot in the arm.
I think it does for series 4 and series five.
I think comes 6 and 7.
The fatigue starts to set in because they're doing...
What emotional...
What we do with 7 this week, you know?
It's like people complain about with Ezrin, so in 7 of DS9, they're
in one year, so they gave them a lot to do.
But, yeah.
Certainly for more than five.
Well, look, can I, um, can I finish this episode with a quote from
Kate Kate Mulgrew herself?
Yeah.
Our queen.
Oh, what's about the same time?
Our queen of Star Trek Voyager.
So she says, Scorpion part 2 is probably my favourite episode of
all time.
It's a beautiful episode on almost every conceivable level.
Everybody had something extremely important to do and the
conflicts were rare.
Rare and intense.
The cruise decisions were divided and epic, and the result is, of
course, that Janeway is the 1st captain in history at Starfleet to
actually believe that she can make a connection with the Borg.
And she has.
I've got this girl.
Oh, that sounds a bit biting, doesn't it?
I've got this girl on my ship now.
So Scorpion part 2 is terrific.
Well, I don't think it's quite that good.
But I think, you know, like, she's right that this is a huge, a
huge development, a brilliant one that does improve the show
immensely, I think.
What's intriguing is, of course, her feelings change.
That's the series goes on and she realises that this fabulous
actress. has come in and practically usurped the show.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I think, like I, you know, you don't know what that workplace was
like or what things felt like it does seem very ungenerous of her
but I do think the fact that both Kate and Jerry are back playing
their characters again in this new iteration of Star Trek.
Do you know what I mean?
Like that makes me happy.
It doesn't surprise me at all.
Alex Kursman looked at Voyager and said, what can we cherry pick
from this show, Janeway and 7?
They are the best things in this show.
Let's exploit them in our new, our new iteration of Trek.
Although we do have some of the medium Robert as well.
And Tim Ross, the prodigy.
Oh, we've had Tim Ross?
Yes of course.
It was wonderful, wasn't it?
Methinks Alex Kurtzman prefers Voyages to Deep Space and the One
you know.
Well, maybe, maybe.
It'd be interesting to know.
It'd be nice to see more than just Kira and Quark back.
What I will say is this episode, I'm watching on Netflix, so
immediately the gift started, and that episode starts with, as you
say, Voyager with the Borg alterations on the ship, and then a
very slow plan around that cargo bay, and all the Borg equipment
and then it finally lands on 7 of 9.
And it does feel like a mission statement.
It's not.
And it does feel like it.
Yeah.
Well, I guess it's a way of retelling it's better than a kind of
previously on Star Trek Voyager.
It's just here's where we are.
This is what we've done to the show in the last episode and I
think that's super interesting.
As a sort of two-part episode in its own right, there's definitely
flaws here.
I think it's really exciting and it's it's, you know, a good
watch.
As a hinge in Voyager's Run.
And in a slight change of direction with the regulars.
Maybe, maybe the best moment in the series.
So it's the end of our episode and it's time for us to choose what
to watch for next time.
I was the one who rolled Scorpion part 2 last week and so it's
Joe's turn on untitled Star Trek project.com slash randomiser.
Tell us what series we're choosing from.
I know.
It's Star Trek, Strange New World.
No, it's...
Oh, that would be...
It does end with that one, though.
It does end with that.
It takes that original series music and fucking ace, is it?
Yeah, yeah.
No, it's Star Trek, the original series, and I have chosen that
because, one, we always have a blast when we talk about it.
I mean, Shatler's in there, you know?
But two, we haven't done it for a while.
It feels like quite a while since we've been back there.
Yeah.
Yep, all right.
That'd be great.
Let's do that Hey, so I'm going to press it.
Okay, press the button.
Oh Jesus Christ.
I'll set you off mic.
I wanted a dud.
Oh, yeah.
What have we got?
Your random Star Trek original series episode is season three
episode 20, The Way to Eden.
Is that the one with the hippies?
Yeah.
Yeah, isn't it?
Dr. Severn or something?
Like it's just.
All right, I'll press it again.
Oh, trouble boy triples.
We've already done that one.
Okay, let's do that.
I'd happily watch that again, you know.
Yeah, we not doing it again.
Okay, episode, sorry, season two, episode 14.
Wolf in the fold.
I don't know what that is.
I have literally no idea what that is.
Isn't that terrible?
It could be good.
It's not the wolf inside, which is an episode of Discovery about
how Ash is secretly the Klingon vogue.
Are you going to bring this up and have a look?
And then edit it.
So we look really clever.
Okay, let's do that.
Yep.
I just looked at the Wikipedia summary and I am none the wiser.
I may just possibly have never seen this one.
So I don't know what its reception is and I didn't want to read
too much of it in case I kind of spoiled myself.
So I think we just do it.
What do you think?
Could be fun.
Could be a disaster.
Oh, I have no idea either.
So we are going in completely blind.
Okay, let's just do that.
Is there a synopsis?
Is there any clue what this is about?
There's something about a sort of weird incorporeal entity that's
super evil and inspires murderers and stuff.
I'm not sure.
So I don't know.
I don't know.
And I don't want to read anymore because if it is something that I
haven't seen, then I want to go in blind.
I mean, we've done...
We've wrote this randomiser plenty of times.
There's been a few times where you haven't known the episode and I
haven't known the episode.
I don't think there's ever been a time where both of us are
completely baffled.
Yeah.
Well, like I said, I think I've seen most of original Star Trek
and I've seen major ones and there are ones that I know have been
kind of on in the background.
But you know, for instance, when we did Spectre of the Gun, I had
no idea how good it was, even though I was certain that I had seen
it at some point.
But this doesn't ring a bell at all.
So I think that we just do it.
This is a terra incognita. think if it was an absolute classic, we
would know about it, wouldn't we?
And if it was a dub.
So I've got a feeling this is going to be sort of mid-range
original series.
It was a road one.
Well, we'll see.
Let's see.
Let's find out.
Okay.
Exciting.
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com where you can find
links to our Twitter, Mastodon, Facebook, and YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Sisrin, and the theme was composed
by Cameron Lahn.
This episode was recorded on the 2nd of May 2023 and released on
the 12th of May.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek the original series, Wolf in
the Fold.
Oh, I've got no idea, either.
I hope it's dismal.
It does look like there might be lots of violence against women.
Lieutenant Kyle.
Oh, Lieutenant Kyle.
So, you know, there's Sexy Lieutenant Kyle, the operator, the
transporter operator in Stranger World.
A little sort of Asian Twink.
Well, there is a transporter operator called Lieutenant Kyle, but
in Star Trek, he's an old white guy.
I'm just gonna have a quick I'm not going to look at the detail
but I'm just have a quick look on jammers, just to see what he
wrote.
Oh, what does he give it?
Where is it?
Wolf in the Fold.
Three stars.
Oh, so immediately before trials and trip, uh, Travel with
Tribles.
At four, 3 out of four.
Okay.
Oh, well.
Although the plot is a little bit on the fantastic side, well, we
like that.
Uh, blah, blah, blah.
This is never explained.
The story pulls itself together nicely.
Vital clues in the database.
Yeah, it sounds sort of trad, trad, trad, TOS.
Solid, a solid, interesting murder investigation with a few neat
twists.
Okay.
So it'll be like darkling.
Oh, no, I have heard of this one.
This is the one where Scotty is accused of murder.
Yeah.
I've heard of it.
Yeah, I've never seen it.
Oh, well, I've got no idea.
I'm intrigued.
I bet there'll be images that I recognise.
Do you know what I mean?
I'm sure there'll be moments that I, or, you know, would sort of
say, oh, they make fun of this scene in that episode of Lower
Decks, and I always wondered what was going on.
I generally, what's his name?
Duhan.
James Dew.
I generally find when they write it for comedies, great.
And when they're writing for drama, it's less good.
It's terrible.
Yes, it's not very good.
So we might see some seriously terrible action in this.
Yeah.
I know this ship like the back of my hand.
Yeah, that's funny.
Do you remember there was that there was like a...
It was like a lot of the Star Trek videos and stuff that were
released in the 90s had had like intercutting between original
Trek, the films, Star Trek, Voyager and stuff like that.
And I remember that scene of him saying, it's from Star Trek V.
I remember that as well, in the trailer.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And Cisco goes over and over again.
Don't know what you're missing. in one of them.
I remember that.
That's right.
That's awesome I bet someone has that somewhere up on you.
Fine crew, Mr. Chevac.
I've got to get them home.
And then that bit as well.
Awesome.
One of the things you remember.
Not vital things, it could be of use to your life, but the trailer
for Star Trek in the 90s.
From the 90s, like literally.
Crazy.
Wow.
Ai, ai, ai.
All right.
Well that was fun.
Yeah, I think I think we kept that rolling for 2 episodes.