WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-06 at 23:03:11

1
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Hi, Joe. Hi.

2
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So it is a bit of an important episode, this one.

3
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It's the turning point.

4
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It's kind of like the fulcrum around which Voyager turns.

5
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It's Scorpion and Scorpion part two.

6
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So the series 3 finale and the series 4 Opener and the introduction of 7 of 9.

7
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I have been perusing memory alpha, such as my want.

8
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And some episodes, you, there's, there's scraps, there's breadcrumbs, you know, there's nothing to, half the enterprise output.

9
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There's nothing at all on there.

10
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Scorpion part one and two It's like someone's dissertation of quotes.

11
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I mean, there's a lot on there.

12
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And the general consensus seems to be amongst the Voyager production team.

13
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That's the actors and the people making it, that this is Peak Voyager.

14
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This was where they started to get in some positive attention because there was a rating spike for Scorpion, both the finale and the opener, um, in a way where they were sort of like slowly leaking viewers, suddenly they took a big upturn for this.

15
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Unfortunately, after this, they started leaking viewers again.

16
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But no, no, the general feeling is that this was a positive time and heading into season 4 and the introduction of 7 of nine.

17
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This is where Voyager kind of took off.

18
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Yeah, and I think that's kind of fair.

19
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We've kind of seen what I hope isn't the end of 7 of 9 story in Picard series 3 over the last few weeks.

20
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And she just continues to be superb, like she is a great character.

21
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And we don't quite get to see that yet, I think, in Scorpion part two.

22
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Oh definitely not.

23
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And there's some quotes from Jerry Ryan, who basically didn't have a fucking clue what she was doing.

24
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I was getting very little direction from anybody.

25
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She was getting up at 4 AM in the morning and, you know, squeezed into that ridiculous prosthetic suit.

26
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Jeez, you know, she's been doing soaps and things like this, but she ain't, she's never been in a costume like this before.

27
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She's suddenly on this stage at, you know, 5 AM going, right, what am I supposed to do?

28
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Act like a robot.

29
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She'd watch Rise, that was really all she knew about Star Trek.

30
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Do you know what's really funny was?

31
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she thought as the Borg, because the drones don't talk, that she wasn't going to get any dialogue in the 1st episode, and then the script came in, and there's a quote from her saying, I got on the phone to Rick Berman and said, what's this?

32
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I've literally, I've got all the dialogue in the episode. the hell do I do this?

33
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And I think you can see that in Scorpion 2 that, you know, she's sort of going for that Ice Maiden approach.

34
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Yeah, yeah.

35
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Yeah, she's not quite there yet.

36
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And where she lands is actually really pretty incredible and it doesn't take her too long to actually find what she's going to do.

37
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But this is very strange to watch in retrospect.

38
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And of course, in the decades that have passed since Voyager finished, in the year, you know, what is it, 2401 or something.

39
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She is a lot more relaxed and a lot more human.

40
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While retaining, I think her kind of underlying affect, which is just so much fun.

41
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She is like, she is really good, but we won't get to see that yet.

42
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But I think, you know, this is their attempt to do best of both worlds, isn't it?

43
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They're at the same point.

44
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And the Delta quadrant is where the Borg came from.

45
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So we were always kind of expecting it to happen.

46
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Initially, well, I was reading initially Unity, which is the Shakotay episode in series 3, where he meets members of the ball collective that still have implants, but are no longer part of the collective.

47
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That was going to be the only Borg episode in Voyager.

48
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That's what they were planning.

49
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And the original season 3 climax was the year of hell.

50
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So it's going to be a two-parter and it was going to be the 2 year of Hell episodes.

51
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However, because they knew there was going to be some cast changes, that couldn't happen.

52
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So that was shunted off into series 4 and they suddenly had to come up with something for the end of three.

53
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Now post, 1st contact, where the queen is killed, Braga suddenly had this bright idea of like, okay, well then why don't we show what's going on with the Borg post, 1st contact.

54
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Yeah.

55
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And let's really go to town and do ball cities and, you know, and borgify up Voyager in a massive way.

56
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And they didn't really go down that approach because he had an idea in his head.

57
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This shows you how Brandon Braggle riots as well.

58
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He had no idea of a premise or an idea or anything.

59
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He's like, I've got this image in my mind of like a Borg graveyard, which I think we see in one of these two, don't we?

60
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He goes, I've got the image and let's just go from there.

61
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Yeah, and I said, I'm like, okay, let's get this down on paper.

62
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Let's have a proper idea that we're going to work with.

63
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But I do think this is the 1st time, I seriously feel like Voyage is in a lot of trouble in the Delta Quadrant.

64
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Yeah.

65
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And it feels like an unsolvable problem, certainly in the 1st episode, and I really like that because we've had 3 years of TNG knockoffs at this point.

66
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And I remember watching this the 1st time and going, okay, this is interesting.

67
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Are they going to run with this?

68
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And then I watch Scorpion 2 and I'm like, oh, they are going to run with this.

69
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And then I watched the gift and I was like, oh, no, they're not.

70
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No, they're not.

71
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And we're back to TNG knockoffs for the rest of the series four. with the inclusion of 7 of nine.

72
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I think there is something commendable about the scale and the weirdness of this. because we have had kind of the obvious thing, which is the Borg are going to attack Earth.

73
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And there's a sense in which that was on the table from Q-Hoo onwards.

74
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Like, I think Q-Hoo ends with them reiterating the fact that the Borg are on their way.

75
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And so we were kind of heading towards that.

76
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Here, we can't do the Borg attack Earth because it's Voyager.

77
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But instead we reach Borg Space, and I think there are some really great, weird visuals here, and I don't think they all come off, and I think some of them are very cheap and don't quite work, but there is a very un 90s trek attempt to look weird and strange.

78
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And I think the computer animation at the cliffhanger is fantastic.

79
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It's really great.

80
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I think maybe we think that now.

81
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I think when this came out, this looked amazing.

82
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And I think, I think a lot of people thought this looked amazing at the time.

83
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And I know there was one person who definitely was watching this and was so inspired by watching Scorpion.

84
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That's in memory alpha two.

85
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That's Brian Fuller, who created Discovery, that he was like, I want to work on this show.

86
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This is, you know, this is as big as TV is right now.

87
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This is as good as TV looks right now.

88
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I want to work on this to the point where, you know, he was such a Star Trek fan.

89
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He went off and created his own intriguing arm of Star Trek.

90
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Yeah, yeah, which is gone completely...

91
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He went visuals first, didn't he?

92
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Like he made sure Discovery looked incredible.

93
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Yeah, yeah.

94
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And well, look, I think even sort of Braga's, you know, if Braga's writing process or creative process is this set piece or this image, that's a perfectly legitimate way for a writer to work.

95
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And I think in Star Trek, it's particularly good.

96
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I think Star Trek's suited to that because I think Star Trek is about weird images.

97
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And I think this actually delivers on that.

98
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I will have criticisms of some of the sets, and there's one or 2 sets. in this 1st episode that I think just don't work at all.

99
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I just I just really felt this was Voyager pulling its socks up. and saying, you know, like everyone thinks we're a bit of a joke because I think at this point nobody was really taking this show very seriously.

100
00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:43.440
And then suddenly we're seeing the Borg presented in a way they never could have done invest of both worlds.

101
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No, you know.

102
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And come the end of the series when we have got enormous bulk cities and things like this in endgame and things like that.

103
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You know, they take it to mutually really impressive places.

104
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Yeah, yeah, I agree.

105
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Nathan, before we jump into Scorpion part one, I've got a few treats to share with you.

106
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Have you cooked me something from Neelix's cookbook?

107
00:09:09.179 --> 00:09:10.740
No, yeah, no.

108
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Okay.

109
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I've got the ingredients for marina sodas, eggplant salad.

110
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Don't worry.

111
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You could need it anyway. you're on the other side of the world have to post it to me.

112
00:09:20.940 --> 00:09:22.559
No, no, no.

113
00:09:22.620 --> 00:09:27.960
So here in Eastbourne, where this fabulous 4 story bookshop, right?

114
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Did I ever take you in there when you came here?

115
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No, but you have told me about it.

116
00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:32.460
Yeah.

117
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Oh my god, it's amazing, like a treasure trove of books.

118
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And they've got a huge science fiction section and I found the mother load of Star Trek books the other day.

119
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Now, there was as many.

120
00:09:43.259 --> 00:09:44.340
I didn't get as I did.

121
00:09:44.340 --> 00:09:49.620
I had stuff like Star Trek, the technical manual and things like that.

122
00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:51.659
And as much as I want to...

123
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Much as I want to know about the ins and outs of the Jeffries tubes, you know, I didn't buy that one.

124
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But I did buy the very 1st volume of Captain's Logs.

125
00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:03.360
Now, I remember before I showed you, I had the 2nd volume.

126
00:10:03.419 --> 00:10:05.100
Well, this is sort of the original series version.

127
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Yeah.

128
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But this will give us fascinating titbits for future episodes.

129
00:10:08.460 --> 00:10:11.940
I also picked up Star Trek, the Visual Dictionary.

130
00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:12.899
Oh, wow.

131
00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:17.279
Now, this is a really good book because across the thing.

132
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It sort of covers the different alien races and things like that, but visually it pulls together all the 90s shows.

133
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So you see the various depictions of all the races and the planet and the technology and things like that.

134
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But...

135
00:10:30.899 --> 00:10:32.100
Alice Craig on the front of that?

136
00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:33.960
It certainly is, yeah.

137
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Just turned up in Picard, doesn't she?

138
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Yeah, yeah.

139
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Best of all, though.

140
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I've hit the mother load with this book.

141
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Oh my god.

142
00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:51.299
So what I have here is Captain Slog, William Shatner's personal account of making Star Trek 5, the final front seat.

143
00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:56.460
So when we come on Star Trek 5.

144
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I'm going to read this entire book.

145
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Let that be soon.

146
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That's going to be hilarious.

147
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Is it all just Shatner saying how great he was and that it's only a shit film because everyone else was terrible.

148
00:11:10.620 --> 00:11:12.299
It's bound to be that, surely.

149
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Let's have a little look, surely.

150
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We watched the film in silence, fully aware. that these problems meant the entire sequence of the film was unuseable.

151
00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:26.519
I mean, I mean, that's the whole fucking film, isn't it?

152
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Anyway, I promise I will read this at some and regale you with Shatner's tales.

153
00:11:34.019 --> 00:11:35.639
No, I need to hear that.

154
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That sounds superb.

155
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I saw that.

156
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And I said, no, forget all the others.

157
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I've gotta buy that.

158
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If only Nemoy had wrote a competing book about his account, if they're making a soundtrack file.

159
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From the point of view of somebody, you know, sensible, rational, this is just going to be, you know, social egomania, isn't it?

160
00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:56.700
Yeah Anyways, sorry about that.

161
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A little diversion there.

162
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No, that's perfect.

163
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And I was chatting with a friend of the podcast, Peter, and he thinks that Janeway owes more than a little to Shatner for the way that she performs as the captain, I think.

164
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And we'll talk about that as we go in because I think there's something to be said for that.

165
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There is a few quotes about, um, Kate Mulgroom's performance from the production team, which is quite interesting, but I'll sort of bring them up as we, as we go through this.

166
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I think she's spectacular in this.

167
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Really, really great.

168
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And as you and I have discussed off mic, Basically the only character in this.

169
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Yeah, yeah.

170
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Yeah.

171
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You know, everybody else is sort of a cypher.

172
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You're doing their jobs.

173
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Yeah that's right.

174
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I think they're trying to give Robert Beltran things to do.

175
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Yeah.

176
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But he's not giving them anything back.

177
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We'll talk more about the medium, Robert, as we go through.

178
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All right.

179
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I'm gonna count us in. you ready to go?

180
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All right.

181
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Let's head into the shortest pre-title sequence ever. 20 seconds long.

182
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All right.

183
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Okay.

184
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Here goes.

185
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Five, four, three, two, one.

186
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And we're off.

187
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That's a mission statement though.

188
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These 2 Borgs coming along, these ball cubes being destroyed immediately.

189
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I mean, it does say what the episode's about.

190
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

191
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It's really good and it's a great mystery as well.

192
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And I think we left hanging for a little bit.

193
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So and it's a spectacular explosion.

194
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I think that's a really good looking sequence.

195
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You might think that's CGI, but actually, I was reading because special effects sequence on memory alpha is enormous in this episode.

196
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And that is they actually, they build up some models.

197
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But they didn't make a model.

198
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They made loads of fragments and put them together.

199
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So we can differently shatter in a very dramatic way.

200
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Yeah, yeah.

201
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The explosion didn't look like something that they'd made in a computer at all.

202
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When is this 1997.

203
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Yeah.

204
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Yeah.

205
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I don't think there was much like this.

206
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Was there 97?

207
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No.

208
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I don't think so.

209
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I mean, what sort of, I did Star Trek lead to a big kind of Renaissance of TV science fiction.

210
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No one was watching Babylon 5, which I haven't even heard of.

211
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No, and Babylon 5.

212
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Do you know what?

213
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I don't like Batman on 5 and I certainly don't like the very cartoonist CGI, but it was pioneering in what it was doing.

214
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Yeah.

215
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Yeah.

216
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Yeah, it did, you know, like it pushed, I guess.

217
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It did look like cartoon spaceships, but it was yeah, it was only a few years before Star Trek was doing it as well, but they were better at it.

218
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You know, at the end of this episode, Kate Mulgrew is very badly superimposed over the ball cube.

219
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Well, every time they go, there's sort of like a mezzanine area on Babylon 5, right?

220
00:14:50.879 --> 00:15:01.500
And every time they go up on this sort of bridge across the shops, there's a really dreadful sort of backdrop show at the space station behind them. and it just always looks as bad as that shot at the end of this.

221
00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:03.840
That is a bad shot in this episode.

222
00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:09.720
And I know you and I, we talked about the artificiality of TV, but you know, there are limits.

223
00:15:09.779 --> 00:15:11.159
Yeah, yeah.

224
00:15:11.220 --> 00:15:11.879
Yeah, yeah.

225
00:15:11.940 --> 00:15:14.039
I mean you can suspend your disbelief and stuff.

226
00:15:14.100 --> 00:15:19.500
You don't have to have realism, but if part of your job is to present that.

227
00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:20.879
Oh, all right, okay.

228
00:15:20.940 --> 00:15:22.320
So here we are.

229
00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:33.179
This is the introduction of the da Vinci workshop, which is a kind of running thing in series for culminating in concerning flight, am I right?

230
00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:34.980
Unfortunately so, yes.

231
00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:37.799
I can't remember concerning flight.

232
00:15:37.860 --> 00:15:41.820
It's a very charming pair of performances in a particularly badly written episode.

233
00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:42.299
Okay.

234
00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:44.700
I mean, I think this is really good.

235
00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:50.100
I think the one problem with it, and again, it's a story logic issue like the one we spoke about last week.

236
00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:57.000
So having that artificial person with the moving arm and stuff makes us think of the Borg, doesn't it?

237
00:15:57.059 --> 00:16:01.019
But this isn't particularly about anything.

238
00:16:01.139 --> 00:16:11.700
Um, But what I do like is the scene later on where she comes to speak to Da Vinci.

239
00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:13.799
Oh, the one the bit by a candlelight.

240
00:16:13.860 --> 00:16:14.820
Yeah, yeah.

241
00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:16.679
I think it's really cool.

242
00:16:16.740 --> 00:16:20.340
And so this is, uh, what's his name?

243
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:22.139
John Reese Davis.

244
00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:23.519
John Reese Davies, who was.

245
00:16:23.580 --> 00:16:25.379
He played the professor in Sliders.

246
00:16:25.379 --> 00:16:29.519
Sliders, but he was in Lord of the Rings, of course.

247
00:16:29.580 --> 00:16:32.159
Oh, yeah.

248
00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:35.639
And Brian Blessed in that, isn't he?

249
00:16:35.700 --> 00:16:37.799
He's really good though.

250
00:16:37.860 --> 00:16:41.879
I think he is really good in this Well, I think he's very charming.

251
00:16:41.940 --> 00:16:49.980
And I think Kate Mulgra is massively invested because she was instrumental in this character appearing in Voyager.

252
00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:50.700
Oh, okay.

253
00:16:50.700 --> 00:17:01.500
So in conversations with Braga, she said that she should have a fellow scientist to sort of talk to that isn't someone on the crew and they said, well, let's do something fun on the holiday.

254
00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:10.859
Bracker goes, you know, what's the point of history where science, um, and art, like it was at their most contentious together.

255
00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:13.500
And they both went da Vinci at the same time.

256
00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:20.759
And so she, and then I think she might have even been involved in, you know, John Reeslavers would be great at this.

257
00:17:20.819 --> 00:17:26.700
So she really wanted, and she wanted him to be a running character, a bit like Vic Fontaine to go on and on.

258
00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:28.380
It doesn't quite.

259
00:17:28.380 --> 00:17:30.000
It would have been quite nice though, I think.

260
00:17:30.059 --> 00:17:31.680
And where are we?

261
00:17:31.740 --> 00:17:32.339
Where is he?

262
00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:33.240
Is he in Florence?

263
00:17:34.380 --> 00:17:39.839
I think it's a painting of something out the window that looks vaguely like...

264
00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:41.279
That's one of their better paintings, though.

265
00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:44.579
And I think it's a really big... impressive set.

266
00:17:44.700 --> 00:17:45.720
Tall set.

267
00:17:45.779 --> 00:17:47.099
Look how high the ceiling is.

268
00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:51.839
Look how small it's not... genuinely, massively tall. isn't it?

269
00:17:51.900 --> 00:17:52.619
Yeah.

270
00:17:52.740 --> 00:17:53.400
They going...

271
00:17:53.460 --> 00:17:55.980
I mean, for this whole episode, they're going for scale, aren't they?

272
00:17:56.519 --> 00:18:11.220
And this, just this conversation is wonderful too, where she gives him the idea of a flying machine that doesn't work from flapping wings, but through gliding. wonderful.

273
00:18:12.660 --> 00:18:20.039
I realise watching this is about 75% of the joy of watching this show is Kate Marlgrew.

274
00:18:20.099 --> 00:18:21.119
Oh she's so good.

275
00:18:21.180 --> 00:18:22.980
She is extraordinary.

276
00:18:23.099 --> 00:18:24.960
And the fact that we almost didn't get her.

277
00:18:25.019 --> 00:18:28.680
And we almost have Genevieve Bujol, you know?

278
00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:30.059
Yeah, who's...

279
00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:32.640
I think she probably would have been as wooden as Beltran.

280
00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:34.619
We would have had 2 very wooden leads in this show.

281
00:18:35.339 --> 00:18:41.519
But she's she's got a real kind of, there's a real life, a real verve.

282
00:18:41.579 --> 00:18:44.460
And I think there are some beautiful moments in this episode.

283
00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:46.559
She's really, really properly good.

284
00:18:47.940 --> 00:18:50.759
Okay, so we've got some bad news.

285
00:18:50.819 --> 00:18:53.759
I'd love to throw this, picked up some information.

286
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:00.720
All she has to do is just this bit in engineering.

287
00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:07.440
But until like that goes to the thing, then there's a Borg looking at it, pointing it with a thing, and so it's been captured.

288
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:12.480
Like that was the probe's eye view of being captured by the Borg, and a Borg was about to disassemble it.

289
00:19:12.539 --> 00:19:14.279
What is with this table?

290
00:19:14.339 --> 00:19:17.400
Can anyone tell me what's going on with this?

291
00:19:17.460 --> 00:19:19.079
It looks like an enormous keyhole, doesn't it?

292
00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:20.220
Yeah, I don't know.

293
00:19:20.279 --> 00:19:21.900
It is a shape like that.

294
00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:22.799
It's very hard.

295
00:19:22.859 --> 00:19:26.940
I feel like it's supposed to light up and a hologram is supposed to come out of it or something.

296
00:19:26.940 --> 00:19:28.200
Maybe that was it.

297
00:19:28.259 --> 00:19:30.299
I can't afford it, yeah, I'm afraid.

298
00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:31.140
That's correct.

299
00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:32.220
Yeah, that's right.

300
00:19:32.339 --> 00:19:38.039
What it does do, I think, is throw the focus on Kate because it's not like the conference table.

301
00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:39.960
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

302
00:19:40.019 --> 00:19:40.920
Yeah, yeah.

303
00:19:40.980 --> 00:19:43.859
It's a strong position for her to be in.

304
00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:48.599
Now, I want to say, I remember writing to you when I was watching this episode.

305
00:19:48.660 --> 00:20:00.720
I was really impressed with this scene because this crew just seems very competent in this scene that everybody around that table comes up with an idea and they formulate a plan around those ideas.

306
00:20:00.779 --> 00:20:03.480
Well, that's classic Star Trek, isn't it?

307
00:20:03.539 --> 00:20:05.819
It's the classic we're good at our jobs.

308
00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:09.539
You'd think it would be a given, but it isn't really the normal Voyager, you know?

309
00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:18.240
So, can you hear me?

310
00:20:18.299 --> 00:20:19.319
Yeah.

311
00:20:19.380 --> 00:20:20.640
Yeah, okay.

312
00:20:20.700 --> 00:20:22.619
I think I bumped something.

313
00:20:22.980 --> 00:20:25.980
So why is Neelix here?

314
00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:29.039
He's just going to, he's organising snacks.

315
00:20:29.099 --> 00:20:30.900
No, no, they say Neelix.

316
00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:33.539
I don't think we're going to be able to get any supplies soon.

317
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:34.980
Don't worry.

318
00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:38.700
I'm working on a plan to, you know, keep our rations going.

319
00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:41.940
They throw it in a line to excuse him.

320
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:48.599
I mean, he should be throwing, he should be throwing parties or something, Borg themed parties to keep everyone's morale up.

321
00:20:48.779 --> 00:20:58.500
Let's take a step back from the usual wager for a 2nd there and think about how exciting this is that we are entering Bork space.

322
00:20:58.619 --> 00:21:01.859
That's a big idea, and that's an exciting idea.

323
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:08.700
And then they managed to trump that with the other premise, which is, who the hell could do this to the Borg?

324
00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:10.680
They're all being murdered.

325
00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:17.279
Yeah, it's brilliant too, that they actually lead with that, and then we're allowed to forget about it.

326
00:21:17.339 --> 00:21:19.319
I always think that that's particularly good.

327
00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:25.500
The show itself forgets that this episode is about a big offscreen thing that can destroy the Borg very easily.

328
00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:28.200
And so it makes the threat the Borg.

329
00:21:28.259 --> 00:21:30.180
And so why does he have a hand?

330
00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:35.700
Why does the good Robert have a hand with nanotubules on it or whatever?

331
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:38.460
He got this in unity in unity three.

332
00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:38.819
Yeah.

333
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:39.420
Yeah, okay.

334
00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:40.559
Don't worry. all makes sense.

335
00:21:40.619 --> 00:21:42.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

336
00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:52.259
No, I assumed, I mean, I assumed that, which is why they, I'm relieved that we don't have a line where he says this hand that I retrieve from the Borg, you know, like blah, blah, blah.

337
00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:54.539
It's like, where do we imagine he got it from?

338
00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:54.960
Excuse me.

339
00:21:55.019 --> 00:21:55.680
They're not above it.

340
00:21:55.740 --> 00:22:02.940
When we watched Endgame and 7 of 9 wanted to have a romance with Chakotay and they were like, no, no, remember in that episode, you're not allowed to have a romance.

341
00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:04.380
Remember, you're called so implants.

342
00:22:06.299 --> 00:22:08.819
I will make a comparison as well.

343
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:10.200
I know I'll do this a lot, yeah.

344
00:22:10.259 --> 00:22:13.859
But as a finale, as the end as an end to a season.

345
00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:16.619
This is miles better than endgame.

346
00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:18.000
I think.

347
00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:19.079
Yeah.

348
00:22:19.140 --> 00:22:24.480
I think I think endgame works as the end of a series though.

349
00:22:24.539 --> 00:22:27.059
Yeah, I don't know about this.

350
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:33.180
So this is us working towards the departure of Kess, and we know that's happening, don't we already?

351
00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:35.279
Like this is, yeah.

352
00:22:35.339 --> 00:22:36.839
And so yeah, yeah, yeah.

353
00:22:37.500 --> 00:22:42.900
This is the last time that her name appears in the credits from series four.

354
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:44.160
She's best guest star, yeah.

355
00:22:44.220 --> 00:22:47.400
Okay, and that she's just in that episode.

356
00:22:47.460 --> 00:22:49.259
That and the gift.

357
00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:49.559
Yeah.

358
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:51.839
Oh, yes, of course.

359
00:22:51.900 --> 00:22:52.079
Yeah.

360
00:22:52.140 --> 00:22:53.339
So she's back for 2 episodes.

361
00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:53.940
That's right.

362
00:22:54.119 --> 00:23:09.119
And so KS is starting to become telepathic in a way that he's going to enable them to write her out in gift, in the gift, and then to kind of ruin this exciting new premise by just flinging a...

363
00:23:09.180 --> 00:23:10.859
So bad, isn't it?

364
00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:15.240
Look, maybe a whole season of them dodging the board, Borg would have been terrible.

365
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:18.720
But it didn't have to be and it didn't have to be boring.

366
00:23:18.779 --> 00:23:20.579
They could have found new things.

367
00:23:20.700 --> 00:23:25.799
Four seasons of them attempting to dodge the cylons and Battlestar Galactica didn't get boring.

368
00:23:25.859 --> 00:23:26.819
No that's right.

369
00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:30.240
If you've got a bit of imagination and creative.

370
00:23:30.299 --> 00:23:30.660
Yeah, exactly.

371
00:23:30.779 --> 00:23:44.700
Well, I mean, even if you think about the series 3 of Enterprise where they spend a whole season on a mission and each episode, like I think it does serialisation quite well, even if I think the whole thing is massively misconceived.

372
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:49.980
You know, each episode is a standalone episode set against this backdrop.

373
00:23:50.039 --> 00:23:53.039
They could have done it, but they were a little bit too scared.

374
00:23:53.099 --> 00:23:57.240
I mean, they're a little bit too kind of know this is for syndication.

375
00:23:57.299 --> 00:24:00.059
It has to be viewable in any order.

376
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:02.279
And that kind of wrecks the show a bit.

377
00:24:02.339 --> 00:24:02.880
Look at that.

378
00:24:04.019 --> 00:24:13.559
I love the count too, where he goes, one, two, three, four, 15, like he jumps, a huge number, and then just give you...

379
00:24:13.619 --> 00:24:15.599
He goes, Captain.

380
00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:19.019
Apparently, they were all paying attention.

381
00:24:19.019 --> 00:24:21.059
And they went, are you going to say the line like that?

382
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:24.059
And then every time they had to say captain, they all took the piss out of him.

383
00:24:24.180 --> 00:24:25.559
This is great.

384
00:24:25.619 --> 00:24:28.619
So they're being photocopied by the Borg.

385
00:24:28.680 --> 00:24:37.200
And as that scanning thing goes across the bridge and it hits her, She says, think good thoughts.

386
00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:42.299
And like, I'm not even sure why she's saying that.

387
00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:59.940
Is it so, is it because she's fancying that if they're thinking good thoughts when the Borg scam them, you know, that they'll get a reading of them being strong or brave or something like that, is it just they're really close and I need you to feel okay?

388
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:06.000
But just the fact that it's never, like, it's an odd thing to say, and it's a great line.

389
00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:07.380
It's a good line.

390
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:20.279
And but like, you know, and I will always say when they're copying other shows, you know, end of series 3 of TNG, the ball walk, and we have that shot in best of both worlds where the green light comes across the enterprise.

391
00:25:20.339 --> 00:25:23.700
Like we're playing in the same kind of ballpark, aren't we?

392
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:24.180
Yeah.

393
00:25:24.180 --> 00:25:26.759
But it, like, like you said to me about Dog 2.

394
00:25:26.940 --> 00:25:33.960
It's looking back at when Star Trek was enormously popular and what worked and saying, right, let's do that and then we'll make it bigger.

395
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:35.039
Yeah.

396
00:25:35.099 --> 00:25:42.539
That shot too, I think the one problem with that shot where they go past the 14 cubes is that?

397
00:25:42.539 --> 00:25:45.119
15 is, yeah, 15.

398
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:55.440
It's in the dialogue, is that the, the, um, Voyager is relatively large compared to the cubes.

399
00:25:57.000 --> 00:25:58.740
Is it those?

400
00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:04.140
Isn't there a scene where the balls, the cubes sort of fly by them and Voyager just sort of gets flung?

401
00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:08.039
Yeah, but I think Voyager is quite large compared to the cubes in that shot.

402
00:26:08.099 --> 00:26:14.640
I thought that that was the problem with that shot, whereas the enterprise is quite small compared to the Borgian best of both worlds.

403
00:26:14.759 --> 00:26:17.640
And, you know, also...

404
00:26:17.700 --> 00:26:24.960
We've had all of these sort of establishing shots of the Enterprise over a couple of years. of it feeling vast. and then we see the queue.

405
00:26:25.019 --> 00:26:28.619
It's absolutely enormous compared to the enterprise, yeah.

406
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:43.500
So this scene, I'm not sure why we're doing this, but there is a little bit, I think, I think that they say nearly works, and I think that Robert nearly rises to it.

407
00:26:43.559 --> 00:26:48.720
Like, they're having a little bit of, like, this is quite a nice moment.

408
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:54.240
And there's, we need this moment, don't we?

409
00:26:54.299 --> 00:26:56.519
We need this moment to see the wharf between them.

410
00:26:56.579 --> 00:26:58.740
And for him to say look, I'll follow you anywhere.

411
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:03.599
But the scene later on, where she says, just yesterday, you said to me, you'd follow me anywhere.

412
00:27:03.660 --> 00:27:04.500
Now I'm on my own.

413
00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:06.180
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

414
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:06.660
Yeah.

415
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:08.579
And it gives her the chance to act.

416
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:12.000
I love the idea that Ensign Hickman does a Janeway.

417
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:13.259
Oh, my God.

418
00:27:13.319 --> 00:27:14.759
Look at Kate's reaction.

419
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:16.619
She loves it. so good.

420
00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:20.039
And, of course, the thing that Janeway is so imitable.

421
00:27:20.099 --> 00:27:23.099
You know, it's that performance, that Catherine Hepburn performance.

422
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:26.579
It's wonderful and it really humanises her.

423
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:35.099
But the way she ends this scene, like, it's not just the line, it's the delivery because the one thing that she does.

424
00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:37.140
She, she doesn't.

425
00:27:37.380 --> 00:27:38.940
She's not doing method.

426
00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:39.779
Do you know what I mean?

427
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:43.380
She shows us what she's feeling.

428
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:45.720
And she does it so well.

429
00:27:45.779 --> 00:27:47.700
She does it so tremendously well.

430
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:50.039
Well, I like the fact at this point as well.

431
00:27:50.099 --> 00:27:52.619
They just let her show emotion when the scene is like.

432
00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:57.059
I think initially they wanted that to be a bit sort of hard as now and a bit more masculine, yeah.

433
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:01.079
But I think it's wonderful, this strong leader who is like that.

434
00:28:01.140 --> 00:28:03.059
So this, do you know what I mean?

435
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:04.079
We'll face it together.

436
00:28:04.140 --> 00:28:11.579
If things go horribly wrong, what we're facing is our whole mission, and this, you're not alone, Catherine, and look at the look on her face.

437
00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:17.339
And that line is beautiful and so well delivered.

438
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:22.799
Three years ago, I didn't know your name and now I can't imagine a day without you. gorgeous, isn't it?

439
00:28:22.859 --> 00:28:24.539
And she touches his chest.

440
00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:27.480
And it's not particularly romantic.

441
00:28:27.539 --> 00:28:29.819
And I think what's a...

442
00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:30.660
Not at all.

443
00:28:30.660 --> 00:28:34.859
But, you know, there are attractive people, do you know what I mean?

444
00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:44.940
Like there's a free song there, but I guess what, I guess what disappoints me is how Beltran doesn't, I think they fudge this in the writing.

445
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:46.619
Like, I think they fucked this up.

446
00:28:47.579 --> 00:28:53.220
And I just don't think he gives her anything.

447
00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:59.700
Like he's rising to being in a scene with her, but when she's unconscious or out of the picture, He's just not up to it.

448
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:04.200
Imagine if she was going up against sort of, you know, Renee Obichon Wild, someone like that, you know.

449
00:29:04.259 --> 00:29:06.059
It would be gold, wouldn't it?

450
00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:09.599
It said she's sort of just emoting against a plank of woods.

451
00:29:09.900 --> 00:29:15.599
So here we have the Borg debris on the screen, which looks pretty amazing.

452
00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:22.619
And this is where Paris gets his best line ever, where he says, who could do this sort of Borg?

453
00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:25.500
That's the mission statement of this episode, isn't it?

454
00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:26.579
Who the hell?

455
00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:32.700
That shot is great of the Voyager just going in through the Borg debris.

456
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:36.059
Going back to Kate Mulgrew for a second.

457
00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:53.519
I've got a quote here from Joe Manosky. because they started to notice that Janeway, as the series went on, was being performed more like Kate Mulgrew and the Janeway, but they were writing.

458
00:29:53.579 --> 00:29:56.339
And so Verowski says here, in Scorpion part one.

459
00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:02.819
Janeway was becoming a little more risk taking and edgy, and frankly, a little bit more like Kate Mulgrew.

460
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:10.680
I've always said, even to Jerry Taylor, I used to say always anyway, if Captain Janeway were more like Kate, we would have a much better character on our hands.

461
00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:18.660
So for whatever reason, our writing and Kate's kind of freewheeling personality, they seem to come together a bit more at the end of the 3rd season.

462
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:21.480
And I think you and that's absolutely true, isn't it?

463
00:30:21.539 --> 00:30:22.619
Yeah.

464
00:30:22.619 --> 00:30:23.880
She's got a bit more bite.

465
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:25.559
Yeah, she's astonishing.

466
00:30:25.619 --> 00:30:37.680
And I think it's no coincidence that the episodes of Voyager that we've been most positive about, have had her in a kind of major role, particularly counterpoint.

467
00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:42.000
Jeez, that one in series one, prime factors, where Chivot betrays her.

468
00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:42.720
Yeah.

469
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:44.880
Fucking hell, her performance at the end of that.

470
00:30:44.940 --> 00:30:45.839
So good.

471
00:30:45.900 --> 00:30:47.039
She's so good.

472
00:30:47.339 --> 00:30:54.119
And do you remember, do you remember Death Wish as well, where she has to make the ruling on where to kill the queue.

473
00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:55.799
Oh, she's brilliant in that as well.

474
00:30:56.460 --> 00:30:59.460
Yeah, yeah, it's a shame.

475
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:02.880
I think that we don't get more of her and Tuvok.

476
00:31:02.940 --> 00:31:05.700
Like Tuvok's so wasted by this show.

477
00:31:05.819 --> 00:31:16.799
And they have a, you know, they have a close relationship because he's been in the crew for a long time and he's also an incredibly strong actor on the cast.

478
00:31:16.859 --> 00:31:18.240
You know, right?

479
00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:20.819
been watching a show recently called Samantha Who, right?

480
00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:26.880
I only ran for 2 seasons and Tim Russ is in it as one of the sort of semi-regulars.

481
00:31:26.940 --> 00:31:30.660
He's the doorman where she lives and he plays it very like Chewbok.

482
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:39.539
He's a bit sort of emotionless and robotic, but every episode, she's got one scene where she's going in and out of the apartment and he gets a devastatingly witty line.

483
00:31:39.539 --> 00:31:41.099
And he's really funny.

484
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:43.559
And I'm like, whoever knew Tim Ross?

485
00:31:43.619 --> 00:31:46.740
It's funny because Voyager certainly never showed me that in 7 years.

486
00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:48.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

487
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:48.900
And they could have done.

488
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:54.720
I mean, you know, like Ethan Peck is funny as Spock. just because he's a Vulcan doesn't mean he can't be funny.

489
00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:56.819
Right, come on.

490
00:31:56.880 --> 00:32:00.299
You and me are going to have a punch-up. don't think this works at all.

491
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:02.400
I think this is terrific sequence.

492
00:32:02.460 --> 00:32:07.920
The one thing that I do like is that where the ball got kind of...

493
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:08.640
Punching at the air.

494
00:32:08.700 --> 00:32:14.579
Yeah, yeah, yeah. that demented behaviour and where they're kind of slightly dismembered and all of that, that's good.

495
00:32:14.700 --> 00:32:18.599
Always going on about how there's no atmosphere in 90s trek.

496
00:32:18.660 --> 00:32:20.339
They are pumping it full of dry ice.

497
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:21.599
The lighting is down.

498
00:32:21.660 --> 00:32:23.400
They're strobe lighting going on.

499
00:32:23.460 --> 00:32:26.640
We don't know what we're going to face because we've already...

500
00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:32.940
But it's just the same shitty set. you know, that sort of flat pack that they've assembled into a thing.

501
00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:38.519
Look at the, like there's no sense of space that we're just going backwards and forwards.

502
00:32:38.579 --> 00:32:39.900
There's no urgency.

503
00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:41.339
There's no...

504
00:32:41.339 --> 00:32:42.180
I think it's tight.

505
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:45.299
Because we're not really supposed to see the threat, yeah.

506
00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:46.319
I don't know.

507
00:32:46.380 --> 00:32:48.599
I just thought there was a real I thought there was a visual drama.

508
00:32:49.019 --> 00:32:49.799
Like, that's shit.

509
00:32:49.859 --> 00:32:50.819
That thing.

510
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:52.259
You know what that is?

511
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:55.680
The Borg corpse is all sort of amalgamated together.

512
00:32:55.740 --> 00:33:00.000
It's a 12 inch model that they've made.

513
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:09.180
Well, because later on Harry's edging around it, like the characters are edging around it now, and I thought, that's not even there.

514
00:33:09.660 --> 00:33:14.519
But, you know, props to them for doing something a bit grizzly because it's a bit nasty.

515
00:33:14.579 --> 00:33:17.579
You know, it's got bald heads been severed and things like that.

516
00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:19.799
Here's what I think the problem is, right?

517
00:33:19.859 --> 00:33:23.339
So they're redoing the scene from Qhu.

518
00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:28.619
And in Qhu, they... got a lot brighter in kihu.

519
00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:40.380
Yeah, but unless, but this, like, they have all of this stuff lying around after 1st contact, and they don't seem to be using it, the set seems quite small.

520
00:33:41.460 --> 00:33:53.700
Q who is that thing where they go on board the Borg cube and they investigate it and they have babies in drawers, which I think we need to bring back, like, why don't the Borg have babies in drawers anymore?

521
00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:59.220
And, and like, and it doesn't definitely generate with the hairdryer. you know?

522
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:01.019
Yeah, that's right.

523
00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:06.359
But all of that is because the Borg are new and we've never done them before and we need to see them.

524
00:34:06.420 --> 00:34:13.079
We need to see what they're like, particularly given that we're basically only interacting with them from inside the spaceship, right?

525
00:34:13.139 --> 00:34:15.059
Otherwise, they're just a square spaceship.

526
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:18.840
We need to kind of go in there and see them and learn what they're like.

527
00:34:18.900 --> 00:34:33.360
And because it's so odd and because we don't really know the Borg, and because I think of Ron Jones's music, although I think the music in this 2 parter is very good, I've been humming the music at the end of this episode all week.

528
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:34.199
Yeah, yeah.

529
00:34:34.260 --> 00:34:37.500
Not just the Borg theme, but the 8472 theme is very good.

530
00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:42.659
Here, we're walking around and we don't really expect anything to happen, so there's no tension.

531
00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:45.300
And I do think like it's not propulsive.

532
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:46.500
There's no sense of pace.

533
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:47.280
There's nothing.

534
00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:48.719
Don't buy that, though.

535
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:54.420
They've established a threat that there's something that's killing the Borg.

536
00:34:54.539 --> 00:34:57.539
And we know it's on this cube because this cube is...

537
00:34:57.539 --> 00:35:01.320
And we know that it has...

538
00:35:01.380 --> 00:35:07.619
But it could see, I was really involved watching this scene because I was like, okay, we've kind of suggested that there's a big threat.

539
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:09.300
And we're doing...

540
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:14.820
I'd rather have these tight shots in these sets than the long shots with the terrible, you know, backdrops that we get at the end of the episode.

541
00:35:14.940 --> 00:35:23.219
No, no, no, that's true, but I still don't get a sense of, like, what they're sort of wandering around some sets and bits of standing set.

542
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:24.900
I just...

543
00:35:24.900 --> 00:35:28.139
The feeling I got was that something could jump out of them at any minute.

544
00:35:28.199 --> 00:35:30.300
And there's a bit of handheld camera work going on.

545
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:37.739
And then something, surprise, surprise, does jump out and surprise, surprise, attacks Harry Kim because he's the chunk that always gets attacked.

546
00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:38.639
Exactly.

547
00:35:38.699 --> 00:35:39.420
Bless him.

548
00:35:39.539 --> 00:35:41.940
But no, you've got to remember as well.

549
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:48.539
There was a suggestion that Garrett rang was going to be written out and this, I think, was going to be how they were going to do it.

550
00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:49.380
Right.

551
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:51.179
Well, they were going to kill him.

552
00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:52.500
Wow.

553
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:54.780
Yeah, but they don't think.

554
00:35:54.780 --> 00:35:55.559
What are they going to do?

555
00:35:55.619 --> 00:35:56.460
have him fall in love.

556
00:35:56.519 --> 00:35:59.699
Yeah, yeah. and like stay on a planet or whatever.

557
00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:01.860
Just have him demoted.

558
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:04.139
But again, this is shitty too.

559
00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:05.039
Do you know what I mean?

560
00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:14.820
Part of the problem with Star Trek at this point is that the sets are just bits of flat pack that they kind of reassemble into different things.

561
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:18.179
This is something new, but yeah, that's quite good, isn't it?

562
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:22.139
But I think that set is really shitty.

563
00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:26.400
And like we've seen that done better in aliens.

564
00:36:26.460 --> 00:36:27.239
Do you know what I mean?

565
00:36:27.300 --> 00:36:34.079
which is a feature film, but it's a feature film from, you know, a few years earlier than this.

566
00:36:34.139 --> 00:36:39.960
You know, it needs to look like the inside of a body and it just, it just doesn't quite get there.

567
00:36:40.019 --> 00:36:43.559
It's so weird how you and me had a completely different reaction to that sequence.

568
00:36:43.619 --> 00:36:45.780
I was properly involved in that.

569
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:49.019
How the camera was sort of following Harry around.

570
00:36:49.079 --> 00:36:52.559
I was like, when's he going to get attacked because I knew it was coming.

571
00:36:52.739 --> 00:36:54.119
Yeah.

572
00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:58.079
I mean, I'm looking forward to the big reveal, which is coming.

573
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:04.800
As as sort of dated as the Species 8472 CGI is now.

574
00:37:04.860 --> 00:37:07.860
I think it's an attempt to do something a bit different.

575
00:37:07.980 --> 00:37:08.579
Oh, yeah.

576
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:11.639
And I think at the time it was, I mean, it was an impressive at the time.

577
00:37:11.699 --> 00:37:20.820
It was still a bit shitty, but it was, yeah, you know, like enterprise, I think, goes on and does this with the Tholians and the Gorn, doesn't it?

578
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:21.900
Like a few years later.

579
00:37:21.960 --> 00:37:27.360
Um, well-established aliens are realised it's just sort of computer generated.

580
00:37:27.420 --> 00:37:31.619
And it's more successful because the technology is a bit better.

581
00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:33.539
But I'm glad that they tried it.

582
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:35.039
See, this is bullshit as well.

583
00:37:35.099 --> 00:37:36.900
We're going to do a skeleta lock.

584
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:44.039
It's a thing I just thought up and maybe that will let us beam him over, even though we couldn't do it before.

585
00:37:44.099 --> 00:37:46.739
We're going to have to add that to the Starfleet manual.

586
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:47.880
So shit.

587
00:37:47.940 --> 00:37:48.960
Come on.

588
00:37:49.019 --> 00:37:51.239
We never hear of it ever again.

589
00:37:51.300 --> 00:37:55.320
Just like that bit where he fiddles about that because we haven't tried to make a terrible decision.

590
00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:59.519
Oh, they're probably using skeletal locks all the time from here on.

591
00:37:59.579 --> 00:38:00.179
Oh, here we go.

592
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:01.380
Yeah, so here we go.

593
00:38:02.940 --> 00:38:04.619
I'll say this.

594
00:38:04.679 --> 00:38:17.940
I'll say this, all right, because this is the one of 2 times when they try to create, you know, the most fearsome menace that Star Trek's ever seen, is this and the slimers from the end of Equedox. you remember?

595
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.500
Those sort of ghostly things.

596
00:38:19.559 --> 00:38:20.940
They wrote in the script.

597
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:24.059
This has got to be the most terrifying thing that we've ever faced.

598
00:38:24.119 --> 00:38:28.139
And then they did these CGI versions of Slimer from Ghostbusters.

599
00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:34.920
And I think neither time they're particularly successful, but this is probably the more successful 2 attempts.

600
00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:40.500
Yeah, I look, you know, they come back once, is that right?

601
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:42.900
And they're mostly just played by people in Holodeck.

602
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:44.400
Did you see that ball?

603
00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:45.780
It just flung Voyager.

604
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:48.300
Just like literally just flipped the voyager over.

605
00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:49.320
Yeah.

606
00:38:49.380 --> 00:38:51.659
It feels like...

607
00:38:51.659 --> 00:38:53.280
It does feel like the danger's big, doesn't it?

608
00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:54.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

609
00:38:54.900 --> 00:38:55.260
Yeah.

610
00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:59.519
And I think, like, I like the look of the bio ships from outside.

611
00:38:59.579 --> 00:39:03.900
Like I think inside the set is shit, but I think that they look really great.

612
00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:12.300
And it's a very good formation. and all the electric goes into the one in the middle and it fires out a massive beam.

613
00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:15.239
Well, that, I think, what the hell is going on?

614
00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:16.619
It's awesome.

615
00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:18.000
It's really good.

616
00:39:18.059 --> 00:39:23.340
And it's them doing, you know, real proper giant computer generated weird stuff.

617
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:29.940
You know, and the 8472 are weirder than the Borg, because the Borg have...

618
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:39.659
I mean, the thing about the Borg is they have ships that don't give a shit about aerodynamics or design or anything like that, they're just a fucking, geometric shape, you know, like, and that's all we're doing.

619
00:39:39.659 --> 00:39:41.760
And all our pipes are on the outside.

620
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:42.599
Do you know what I mean?

621
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:44.820
We don't care about how it looks or it's designed.

622
00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:45.960
We're completely alien.

623
00:39:46.019 --> 00:39:52.500
And then you get these things which are just like big, weird aliens who ride in big, weird aliens.

624
00:39:52.619 --> 00:39:54.780
And the rules are gone.

625
00:39:54.840 --> 00:40:02.099
Bluidic space, which I think is an idea that's a lot more fun than they ever actually managed to realise in the episode.

626
00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:05.039
I think that you could do amazing things with that idea.

627
00:40:05.099 --> 00:40:07.440
But one, they don't have the means.

628
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:09.300
And two, they don't really have the imagination.

629
00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:15.780
No, in discovery, remember there's like mushroom space. sort of subspace realm.

630
00:40:15.780 --> 00:40:17.340
But it looked amazing, didn't it?

631
00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:20.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course it did, but it's much later.

632
00:40:20.579 --> 00:40:23.280
But look at Kate.

633
00:40:23.340 --> 00:40:26.400
Look at Kate's really...

634
00:40:26.460 --> 00:40:29.340
Harry Kim has got an enormous frond coming out of his nose now.

635
00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:30.780
Yeah, tendril.

636
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:32.699
It's a big tendril coming out.

637
00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:34.139
Oh, that is really gross, though.

638
00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:36.000
Mr. Kim is being eaten alive.

639
00:40:36.900 --> 00:40:39.000
And he can't be treated.

640
00:40:39.059 --> 00:40:40.920
And this goes somewhere as well.

641
00:40:40.980 --> 00:40:42.840
Like this explains what's happening.

642
00:40:42.900 --> 00:40:44.699
Like he is being eaten alive.

643
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:59.760
The doctor tries to sedate him, but can't, because whatever the 8472 are made of, it rejects any kind of therapeutic intervention.

644
00:40:59.820 --> 00:41:13.619
And so what you have is you've got the Borg who are a technological thing that absorbs people, and now you have something stronger than them that is just purely biological, there's no technology involved at all.

645
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:16.199
You know, it's like a big space thing.

646
00:41:16.260 --> 00:41:21.179
And it's so weird and so much weirder than nearly anything that we've ever seen in Star Trek.

647
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:24.599
And of course, that's the ultimate opposite of the Borg, isn't it?

648
00:41:24.659 --> 00:41:25.739
A biological threat.

649
00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:27.599
Technological threat.

650
00:41:27.659 --> 00:41:40.860
So, and I think there is a germ of a really good idea that, um, that the Borg, like, that she's basically saying that we should, um, eliminate spaces 8472.

651
00:41:41.099 --> 00:41:43.800
I don't think it goes anywhere though.

652
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:45.480
No, I don't think so either.

653
00:41:45.539 --> 00:41:48.300
And I think they sort of throw it in the air, don't they?

654
00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:49.440
This is voyageous problem.

655
00:41:49.500 --> 00:41:50.880
Yeah.

656
00:41:50.940 --> 00:42:00.300
And they muddy it with by failing to do the conflict between Chakose and her properly.

657
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:03.780
Like they don't really think it through and it doesn't really work.

658
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:05.579
And then it just ends.

659
00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:06.659
I like the tension.

660
00:42:06.719 --> 00:42:08.280
Because I always...

661
00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:09.780
There's never enough tension in Voyager.

662
00:42:09.900 --> 00:42:12.360
I do like that that they're putting a bit of conflicts in.

663
00:42:12.420 --> 00:42:17.219
But because we don't ever get to, because Species 8474 is so unknowable at this point.

664
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:20.940
We don't understand the threat they are to anybody.

665
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:26.280
We don't understand, you know, what the balance of power shift would be if they do wipe them out.

666
00:42:26.340 --> 00:42:28.079
So there's no context to any of it.

667
00:42:28.139 --> 00:42:29.099
It's just an idea.

668
00:42:29.639 --> 00:42:31.440
Yeah, that's true.

669
00:42:31.500 --> 00:42:32.400
That is true.

670
00:42:32.460 --> 00:42:33.900
How do you make that decision?

671
00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:39.539
Like, how can Chakotay be so sure that her action is morally wrong?

672
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:42.360
Like, how can you know that?

673
00:42:42.420 --> 00:42:47.760
Then back at her, like how can, how can she be so sure that, you know, wiping them out is the right thing?

674
00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:49.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

675
00:42:49.860 --> 00:42:57.659
And in a way, like in a way, the way that she operates is sometimes he's what I have to do to get people home.

676
00:42:57.960 --> 00:42:59.940
Do you know what I mean?

677
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:05.219
Like, I'm going to kill some icky monsters who've already tried to eat Harry Kim alive.

678
00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:06.360
Do you know what I mean?

679
00:43:06.420 --> 00:43:11.039
Like, I think it's reasonable of her to not spend too much time interrogating.

680
00:43:11.099 --> 00:43:12.659
This is great too.

681
00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:15.059
And her reaction, the Northwest Passage.

682
00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:19.860
So that that 100 now. 33 bio ships.

683
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:22.199
Yeah, we get to see what that is.

684
00:43:22.260 --> 00:43:23.699
We saw it on the screen.

685
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:24.780
It was our salvation.

686
00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:36.059
It's a blank space through Borg space that we can go through because there's no Borg in it, and now we discover, well, of course, there's no Borg in it because it's just full of these bioships.

687
00:43:36.539 --> 00:43:43.139
But you know, like in there, you just saw loads of those buyerships coming pouring out of fluidic space, you know?

688
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:44.940
And that's quite an exciting idea.

689
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:55.800
But like it reminds me of, do you remember in Purgatory Shadow, when the wormhole opens at the end, and the Dominion ships come pouring out, and then Cliff, it means something to the show that we're watching it.

690
00:43:55.860 --> 00:43:57.059
It's a massive threat.

691
00:43:57.119 --> 00:43:58.920
Like what the hell does this mean?

692
00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:00.900
Oh, boys, you might be destroyed.

693
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:01.559
Well, okay.

694
00:44:01.619 --> 00:44:17.760
Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, because the DS9 episode is kind of changing the political, the sort of geopolitical, you know, status quo, and that's not going to happen on Voyager, this is just scary monsters coming through a thing.

695
00:44:17.820 --> 00:44:19.199
Wow, doesn't that look pretty?

696
00:44:19.260 --> 00:44:30.119
But I did think that actually for a 2nd there where we had that shot of the ship and then we had the shot of an 8472 in front of a screen operating a screen from inside a bioship and stuff.

697
00:44:30.179 --> 00:44:34.260
That stuff, that was weird and I liked that, you know.

698
00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:37.980
I think that the 8472 are pretty... don't do it enough.

699
00:44:38.460 --> 00:44:38.760
Do they?

700
00:44:38.820 --> 00:44:39.420
No.

701
00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:42.059
They don't do it enough. when they do it, it really sticks out.

702
00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:49.500
Yeah, I mean, the show is just contend to put American actors in latex and give them a number on the bow mask scale week after week after week.

703
00:44:49.559 --> 00:44:50.760
Do you know what I mean?

704
00:44:50.820 --> 00:44:53.039
Like this is...

705
00:44:53.099 --> 00:44:55.320
Imagine if the Beaumara turned out to be in those ships.

706
00:44:56.519 --> 00:44:59.940
We said we'd be back and we're back.

707
00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:05.340
Oh, they were so fucking shit, were they?

708
00:45:05.579 --> 00:45:07.320
Oh, wait.

709
00:45:07.380 --> 00:45:08.460
No, that's series four.

710
00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:09.239
We haven't had them yet.

711
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:10.920
We haven't had the bowman yet.

712
00:45:11.039 --> 00:45:14.340
Nathan, we go from the Bork to the Boma.

713
00:45:14.340 --> 00:45:15.360
To the Boma.

714
00:45:15.420 --> 00:45:16.019
Holy crap.

715
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:16.619
Wow.

716
00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:25.920
Amazing But I do like the fact that they constantly come back to Jane Way's decision to strand them in the Delta Quadrant throughout the series run.

717
00:45:25.980 --> 00:45:28.920
That's sort of like her, so they do it in night as well.

718
00:45:28.980 --> 00:45:32.219
Do you remember where she's agonising at night because they're in that dark space?

719
00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:33.179
They do it here.

720
00:45:33.239 --> 00:45:35.820
And like you said, they bring it up again and end game as well.

721
00:45:35.940 --> 00:45:37.500
Yeah, yeah.

722
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:39.300
We get to re-mitigate it.

723
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:41.820
See, this is a beautifully lit scene too.

724
00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:47.760
And the shot through the window, you know, where the windows are made out of kind of slightly warped glass because it's old.

725
00:45:47.820 --> 00:45:49.800
This is so annoying.

726
00:45:49.860 --> 00:45:51.780
If they can do practical lighting, this good.

727
00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:52.800
Yeah.

728
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:54.239
Is it just because it takes time?

729
00:45:54.300 --> 00:45:55.619
I think so.

730
00:45:55.679 --> 00:46:00.239
Do you remember when Beverly Crusher's fabulous Gothic house in Subrosa?

731
00:46:00.300 --> 00:46:01.619
was full of candles.

732
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:03.300
And we said, that looked great as well, you know.

733
00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:04.199
Yeah.

734
00:46:04.260 --> 00:46:11.159
Yeah, I mean, there could be more practical light, but I guess it does take a while to light and it is difficult.

735
00:46:11.219 --> 00:46:16.860
Yeah. basically saying, get rid of all that boring overhead light in and just shove a load of candles in the sense.

736
00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:18.480
Yeah, that's right.

737
00:46:18.539 --> 00:46:19.619
I don't know how that works.

738
00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:20.699
We'll have a bit of atmosphere.

739
00:46:21.420 --> 00:46:24.840
So this is strange too, isn't it?

740
00:46:24.900 --> 00:46:27.420
I'm not quite sure what's happening here.

741
00:46:30.659 --> 00:46:37.679
Like there's talk of shadows and stuff like that, but I don't know what's happening.

742
00:46:37.739 --> 00:46:44.400
But what I do like is when he suggests, and it works quite well, doesn't it?

743
00:46:44.460 --> 00:46:54.840
He suggests that, oh, this world's being created and replaced by destroyed worlds in my imagination, you know, that's pretty good because that's what's happening here.

744
00:46:54.900 --> 00:47:17.159
But um, when he suggests praying. that she should pray, because, and I think that's so good, and her reaction to it is so great, particularly on an American TV show, when Americans are sort of much more religious than other English speaking countries, to have her reject that because she's a scientist.

745
00:47:17.219 --> 00:47:20.159
I just don't think that would work for me and I think it's really real.

746
00:47:20.219 --> 00:47:21.900
I don't know if you remember.

747
00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:30.300
In that sequence where in that sequence where the Dominion does come pouring out of the wormhole, Kira just sort of turns on the camera and goes, may the prophets forgive us.

748
00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:32.159
She does break.

749
00:47:32.219 --> 00:47:35.760
Yeah, and that's right. and that's the game we as a scientist.

750
00:47:35.820 --> 00:47:37.139
We can do religion.

751
00:47:37.260 --> 00:47:41.219
Yeah, yeah, we do do religion in DS9, but not here.

752
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:44.039
And I think, you know, it's only human beings.

753
00:47:44.099 --> 00:47:48.059
It's only like human beings are not religious and other aliens are, I think.

754
00:47:49.139 --> 00:47:55.559
Yeah, this where he says, look, you know, I'm a scientist, but still sometimes I find myself kneeling in prayer.

755
00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:59.039
And his plan, I think, is beautiful.

756
00:47:59.099 --> 00:48:08.280
So he's going to deliver a little bronze statue to the monks and he's going to take her with him and suggest going to the chapel.

757
00:48:08.340 --> 00:48:08.940
I love it.

758
00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:10.260
I think that's so good.

759
00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:11.940
And look at her response.

760
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:13.079
It's beautiful.

761
00:48:13.139 --> 00:48:13.800
Look.

762
00:48:13.860 --> 00:48:16.559
She's not, she doesn't pity him.

763
00:48:16.619 --> 00:48:17.820
She doesn't patronise him.

764
00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:22.800
Yeah.

765
00:48:22.860 --> 00:48:24.179
Yeah, I think it's terrific.

766
00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:26.400
And so instead she's going to make a deal with the devil.

767
00:48:27.539 --> 00:48:31.260
Which is, that's the decision that she ultimately makes, isn't it?

768
00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:33.480
She's got to work with the ball.

769
00:48:33.539 --> 00:48:35.820
And that's a big idea as well.

770
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:37.440
Yeah.

771
00:48:37.500 --> 00:48:38.159
Yeah.

772
00:48:38.219 --> 00:48:43.380
But again, you know, for us as well, the Borg are a known quantity.

773
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:51.239
So we've had them, end of series 3 of TNG, end of series 6, we've had 1st contact.

774
00:48:51.300 --> 00:48:54.659
We know the Borg well. at this point.

775
00:48:54.719 --> 00:48:57.780
And so for us, there are known quantity.

776
00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:04.679
And I think that they properly cell 8472 as more evil than the Borg, don't you?

777
00:49:04.739 --> 00:49:17.639
Here, they do here, and then we, the next time we see Species 8472 is in prey, where it's basically like an alien's ripoff, and there's a damage.

778
00:49:17.699 --> 00:49:19.260
Yeah, the hirogen are.

779
00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:26.820
And then we don't see them again until series 5 and by that point, we probably should be well out of Species 847 space.

780
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:31.139
And they're just on like some fake Starfleet headquarters and they want to negotiate.

781
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:37.079
And it's basically just writing staff just going, look, we're kind of done with this, but we didn't tie it up. let's just do it.

782
00:49:37.139 --> 00:49:38.579
And it's such a waste.

783
00:49:38.639 --> 00:49:47.340
It's so typically Voyager to present us with the, you know, the big bad and then just go, well, well, and then make it boring from that now.

784
00:49:47.400 --> 00:49:48.599
Yeah, yeah.

785
00:49:48.659 --> 00:49:49.320
Yeah.

786
00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:49.920
Yeah.

787
00:49:49.980 --> 00:49:51.420
You're terrible.

788
00:49:56.099 --> 00:49:58.260
It's not all boring.

789
00:49:58.320 --> 00:49:59.340
It's just mostly boring.

790
00:49:59.460 --> 00:50:18.300
No, but look, and they give Tuvok, the security officer, that line, what will prevent them from saying yes, we'll do the deal and then assimilating us anyway, and she's got an answer and he's doing it properly, and there's not conflict, but there's a real proper sort of presentation of alternative views.

791
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:23.159
It's so much more interesting than her standing up and saying what we're going to do.

792
00:50:23.219 --> 00:50:25.380
Um, yeah.

793
00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:28.380
Yeah, I think she's, I think she's great.

794
00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:44.820
I just want to say about the Borg in general, yeah, because I think this really kickstarts Voyager's general emasculation and embarrassing the Borg, because here they come across again, you know, they're not the big bad in the Delta Quadra.

795
00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:50.219
They're something that they've tried to bully and it's actually more powerful than them and has given them a bloody nose.

796
00:50:50.280 --> 00:50:51.300
Yeah.

797
00:50:51.300 --> 00:50:55.860
So we've got a sort of a notch down from being the big, big bag that they were.

798
00:50:55.920 --> 00:51:00.599
But then we've got stuff like the ball kids coming in in series 6.

799
00:51:00.659 --> 00:51:09.119
You know, and obviously we do 7 of 9 storylines, so that's like, well, this is proof that a ball person can actually be brought back from the brink of being a zombie.

800
00:51:09.179 --> 00:51:09.960
Yeah.

801
00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:19.739
And then you've got Unimatrix 0 in series 7 where all along there was this sort of rebellion collective, sort of within the collective.

802
00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:21.840
And it's just like it just gets worse and worse.

803
00:51:21.900 --> 00:51:25.980
The ball becomes so kind of so much less of a threat.

804
00:51:26.039 --> 00:51:38.940
But by the time we get to endgame, you're just like, oh, to the point where in Unimatrix 0, they assimilate Janeway and Chewvok and Balana, that's the cliffhanger, but almost Heller.

805
00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:44.400
They almost tell us that, no, this is just, we're just playing at this, right?

806
00:51:44.460 --> 00:51:46.559
But they sell it as a good thing.

807
00:51:46.559 --> 00:51:48.539
And then five minutes into the next episode.

808
00:51:48.599 --> 00:51:50.460
They're like, right, well, we got away with that then.

809
00:51:50.519 --> 00:51:53.519
You know. like, what happened to the Borg?

810
00:51:53.579 --> 00:52:08.880
Yeah, fuck for Picard series 2, where they came back sort of scary and weird and with that fabulous woman playing the ball queen and they were doing sort of psychological mind games with Agnes and it's all the stuff that Voyager could have been doing with the Borg.

811
00:52:08.940 --> 00:52:12.360
Instead of sort of ripping away any sense of menace that they had.

812
00:52:12.780 --> 00:52:15.960
Yeah, they weren't careful enough, were they?

813
00:52:16.019 --> 00:52:20.159
It was, it's not bad that they kept going back to them.

814
00:52:20.219 --> 00:52:25.019
Um, you know, maybe it starts, though, with descent.

815
00:52:25.079 --> 00:52:30.960
I mean, we've talked about descent and it really fucks up the Borg in a bad way as well and presents...

816
00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:32.880
Maybe it starts with Hugh Borg.

817
00:52:32.940 --> 00:52:33.599
Maybe it starts there.

818
00:52:33.659 --> 00:52:46.619
Yeah, yeah, but I think that's a good episode because I think it's a very Star Trekie episode where you take the weirdest, you know, most terrifying enemy we have and find some connection with it.

819
00:52:46.739 --> 00:53:01.199
And I was thinking about that today, how great that is and how descent ruins it, where, you know, they're going to send that shape that's going to make the computers go crazy, but instead they decide not to do that.

820
00:53:01.260 --> 00:53:06.119
They just send Hugh back with an idea about what individuality is.

821
00:53:06.119 --> 00:53:08.340
And they hope that will spread.

822
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:19.980
And then, of course, dissent ruins it by saying, well, yes, it spreads and it makes them all vulnerable to, you know, Jim Jones, a.k.a. law coming along and turning them into a cult.

823
00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:27.179
But it's so weird because it didn't have to go down that way with the ballwalk, I don't think.

824
00:53:27.239 --> 00:53:42.719
Like, you know, I'm going to skip back to DS9 for a 2nd again and say we had 5 seasons with the Dominion, where we kept going back to the Dominion, and all they did was get, you know, more camp and fabulous and amazing with every season that passed, you know?

825
00:53:42.780 --> 00:53:58.860
Well, in fact, I think what's really good about the Dominion and what they do very skilfully is they have entertaining scenes where like Damar and Wayoon and and do kind of be in camp and silly and those seeds are kind of played for laughs a bit.

826
00:53:58.920 --> 00:53:59.820
Do you know what I mean?

827
00:53:59.940 --> 00:54:01.559
Like they're played knowingly in a way.

828
00:54:01.619 --> 00:54:04.500
But the Dominion is a credible threat the whole time.

829
00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:07.500
It doesn't undermine the Dominion as a threat in any way.

830
00:54:07.559 --> 00:54:09.719
And like maybe the intro...

831
00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:12.840
Because we're told constantly that they're murdering 1000000s of people.

832
00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:14.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

833
00:54:14.099 --> 00:54:16.619
Yeah, space peril.

834
00:54:16.679 --> 00:54:37.860
But the, like, even the introduction of the Borg queen, um, in 1st contact doesn't diminish them, I don't think, even though it humanises them, even though we lose a little bit of the incomprehensibility of the Borg, uh, which is a shame, but I think that's really good, all of that Borg queen stuff in 1st contact is very good.

835
00:54:38.219 --> 00:54:42.179
But I just think that they're not careful enough.

836
00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:45.179
It's not that they go back to the Borg well too frequently.

837
00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:47.400
It's that they do it carelessly.

838
00:54:47.460 --> 00:54:56.159
And here I think they get away with it because just the sheer astonishment of how weird this situation is, you know, works really well.

839
00:54:56.219 --> 00:54:57.239
Look at that.

840
00:54:57.300 --> 00:55:00.059
The annoying thing as well is all the different ways that they explore.

841
00:55:00.119 --> 00:55:00.719
Yeah, that's great.

842
00:55:00.780 --> 00:55:03.000
Always just tidy compared to that queue.

843
00:55:03.059 --> 00:55:04.679
I think it's big.

844
00:55:04.739 --> 00:55:06.059
I think speaking of the enterprise was.

845
00:55:06.179 --> 00:55:11.460
All those, all those different ways that they try and explore the board, Unimatrix 0, the kids.

846
00:55:11.519 --> 00:55:14.340
I don't fundamentally that they're not terrible ideas.

847
00:55:15.179 --> 00:55:19.440
But in succession, It just leaves the ball impotent.

848
00:55:19.980 --> 00:55:21.360
Yeah.

849
00:55:21.420 --> 00:55:24.960
And then they try and sell them as that big threat in the last episode.

850
00:55:25.139 --> 00:55:26.639
Yeah.

851
00:55:26.699 --> 00:55:35.699
Yeah, I think the problem is, I think the problem is letting, you know, becoming too comfortable with them, like getting to know them too well, I think.

852
00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:37.320
Do you know what it is, I knew?

853
00:55:37.380 --> 00:55:38.639
You know what the Doctor Who parallel is?

854
00:55:38.699 --> 00:55:40.019
It's the Weeping Angels effect.

855
00:55:40.079 --> 00:55:44.219
Yeah, every time you bring them back. diminishing returns.

856
00:55:44.280 --> 00:55:45.659
Pretty much, yeah.

857
00:55:45.719 --> 00:55:46.860
Pretty much.

858
00:55:46.920 --> 00:55:47.400
Yeah.

859
00:55:47.460 --> 00:55:49.920
Although, it doesn't quite work.

860
00:55:49.980 --> 00:55:50.639
Yeah.

861
00:55:50.699 --> 00:55:53.219
Nathan, you have 10 seconds to comply.

862
00:55:54.300 --> 00:55:56.579
She's so good.

863
00:55:56.699 --> 00:55:59.579
She's threatening to delete the doctor at this point.

864
00:56:00.420 --> 00:56:02.579
So here she is.

865
00:56:02.760 --> 00:56:06.059
This is so bad, isn't it?

866
00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:07.380
It's so low effort.

867
00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:13.739
And you can't see this listeners, but Nathan has this very effect shot of the ball cube behind him right now.

868
00:56:13.860 --> 00:56:14.519
Yep.

869
00:56:14.519 --> 00:56:16.860
I'm actually, I hate doing.

870
00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:27.840
You look much more am I mad at more convincingly by the Zoom background image just projects me seamlessly onto this background?

871
00:56:27.900 --> 00:56:30.480
I think it's very...

872
00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:33.000
You have recorded from a ball cube for this episode.

873
00:56:33.059 --> 00:56:34.619
That's right.

874
00:56:34.679 --> 00:56:37.139
It's so fucking cheap, isn't it?

875
00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:38.940
Like, they can't even construct.

876
00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:42.659
I do like that shot where you just see the 2 little drones.

877
00:56:42.719 --> 00:56:43.980
Did you see them walking across us?

878
00:56:44.099 --> 00:56:46.260
Yeah, yeah.

879
00:56:46.260 --> 00:56:47.820
No, I just think it's shit.

880
00:56:47.940 --> 00:56:50.639
Like, what are they like, what?

881
00:56:50.699 --> 00:56:52.500
You know, I don't know.

882
00:56:52.559 --> 00:56:54.360
Maybe it's the best they could do at the time.

883
00:56:55.139 --> 00:56:58.260
No, but wouldn't a practical set have been better?

884
00:56:58.320 --> 00:57:01.380
Like, why are they, why is she just projected against a thing?

885
00:57:01.500 --> 00:57:02.760
money, isn't it?

886
00:57:02.820 --> 00:57:04.440
Go back and watch Q Who?

887
00:57:04.500 --> 00:57:06.960
And the shot where Rikers.

888
00:57:07.019 --> 00:57:08.099
It's a match shot.

889
00:57:08.159 --> 00:57:10.559
It's a painted shot and it looks way better than this.

890
00:57:10.619 --> 00:57:11.820
Than that.

891
00:57:11.820 --> 00:57:13.380
They've got a practical set.

892
00:57:13.380 --> 00:57:15.719
It's really literally in front of it. yeah.

893
00:57:15.780 --> 00:57:18.960
And then it sort of pulls away into a match shot.

894
00:57:19.019 --> 00:57:20.340
Oh, this is terrific.

895
00:57:20.400 --> 00:57:22.380
Can I say to you one thing, isn't it?

896
00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:23.159
blow up, you ready?

897
00:57:23.219 --> 00:57:24.659
That that cube.

898
00:57:24.719 --> 00:57:31.139
I'm just going to say... da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da.

899
00:57:31.139 --> 00:57:33.059
Yeah, real good. music is great.

900
00:57:33.119 --> 00:57:34.079
Yeah, yeah.

901
00:57:34.139 --> 00:57:34.739
Yeah.

902
00:57:34.800 --> 00:57:36.719
Another... another win.

903
00:57:36.900 --> 00:57:41.940
I think in terms of building up to a cliffhanger, this is very well done.

904
00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:44.460
You've got the ships pouring out.

905
00:57:44.579 --> 00:57:45.480
Cliffhanger.

906
00:57:45.539 --> 00:57:48.119
They're doing weird stuff with their electricity beams.

907
00:57:48.179 --> 00:57:49.380
It's so weird.

908
00:57:49.380 --> 00:57:51.719
Janeway's trapped on the ball queue. ever seen.

909
00:57:51.780 --> 00:57:54.000
We're destroying a whole planet.

910
00:57:54.059 --> 00:57:56.400
Like it's so huge.

911
00:57:56.460 --> 00:57:59.099
And look, look at that.

912
00:57:59.159 --> 00:58:03.119
The, the, um, the, like lava coming off the planet hits the ball cube.

913
00:58:03.179 --> 00:58:06.179
I can almost see Brian Fuller watching this going.

914
00:58:06.239 --> 00:58:07.500
I can make Star Trek like this.

915
00:58:07.559 --> 00:58:09.900
You know, visually impressive one day.

916
00:58:10.199 --> 00:58:11.760
That's great.

917
00:58:11.820 --> 00:58:14.940
And look, the, like, the planet blows up.

918
00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:16.440
Voyagers being towed away.

919
00:58:16.500 --> 00:58:17.940
Janeway's on the board.

920
00:58:17.940 --> 00:58:18.539
Yeah, yeah.

921
00:58:19.260 --> 00:58:21.539
It's all up for grabs here.

922
00:58:21.840 --> 00:58:25.320
But it's also just a huge giant cartoon.

923
00:58:25.380 --> 00:58:31.679
You know, we were making fun of making fun of Babylon 5.

924
00:58:31.980 --> 00:58:35.159
But that looks so great because it is so weird.

925
00:58:35.219 --> 00:58:37.559
And, you know, those bioships.

926
00:58:37.619 --> 00:58:38.579
Do they look like the shadows?

927
00:58:38.639 --> 00:58:42.300
I don't even, like I said, I've never heard of Babylon 5.

928
00:58:42.539 --> 00:58:45.480
But, um, you know, the bioships are weird.

929
00:58:45.539 --> 00:58:50.699
The way they behave is weird, all of that brown and strange colours and stuff. really good.

930
00:58:50.760 --> 00:58:59.639
There was criticisms because there are the Vorlons in Babylon 5 and they do look a bit like the bio ships and they do exist in fluidic space.

931
00:58:59.699 --> 00:59:01.440
Right, okay.

932
00:59:01.500 --> 00:59:07.380
I think Star Trek, I don't think Star Trek is above looking over its shoulder, you know, and going, well, we could do that, but make it look better.

933
00:59:07.440 --> 00:59:08.639
We could steal that.

934
00:59:08.699 --> 00:59:09.119
Yeah.

935
00:59:10.559 --> 00:59:13.260
But it's exciting, isn't it?

936
00:59:13.320 --> 00:59:15.119
It's an exciting cliff, eh?

937
00:59:15.179 --> 00:59:15.480
Oh, yeah.

938
00:59:15.539 --> 00:59:17.579
I think it is a really good cliffhanger.

939
00:59:17.639 --> 00:59:25.019
And I think one of the things that's unusual about it is that it's a cliffhanger that doesn't, because what's the best of both worlds, Cliffhanger?

940
00:59:25.079 --> 00:59:31.260
It's not a giant mental, like a giant gonzo special effect shot?

941
00:59:31.320 --> 00:59:34.079
Is Riker saying fire on his boss?

942
00:59:34.139 --> 00:59:40.739
You know, the ship that, you know, in response to Laquitas. no win situation, isn't it?

943
00:59:40.800 --> 00:59:42.119
That's what I love about that.

944
00:59:42.179 --> 00:59:44.820
I remember watching it going, how, how?

945
00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:46.320
How are they going to get out of this?

946
00:59:46.380 --> 00:59:47.940
I was sort of screaming at the screen.

947
00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:51.119
Whereas when I watched this, I remember I was just going, what's going on?

948
00:59:51.179 --> 00:59:52.500
Where the hell is this?

949
00:59:52.559 --> 00:59:54.420
It is very different.

950
00:59:54.480 --> 01:00:04.320
And the thing that's super weird is that it doesn't seem to have a characters, but for once I don't care because it's so strange. and so different from anything that we've ever seen.

951
01:00:04.380 --> 01:00:06.059
That's exciting to me, I think.

952
01:00:06.119 --> 01:00:09.179
Is this the best, Voyager?

953
01:00:09.239 --> 01:00:10.500
season finale.

954
01:00:10.800 --> 01:00:13.860
I don't know them well enough.

955
01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:16.860
So I'm not quite sure.

956
01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:20.280
People are going to think I'm mad because you know what my favourite is.

957
01:00:20.340 --> 01:00:22.320
My favourite is basics.

958
01:00:22.380 --> 01:00:24.000
No, based on action.

959
01:00:24.119 --> 01:00:30.900
Because you've got holding the baby on the Voyager Bridge as she basically kicks them all off onto a planet.

960
01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:37.320
And I know people hate the Kazon, but it really builds to like an epic ending where how the hell is it?

961
01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:40.500
Like when DS9 kicked everyone off the station at the end of five.

962
01:00:40.559 --> 01:00:43.980
It's like a fundament. you feel like, well, the show's changed forever.

963
01:00:44.039 --> 01:00:45.059
Well, no, it hasn't.

964
01:00:45.119 --> 01:00:46.079
Yeah, the show's under threat.

965
01:00:46.139 --> 01:00:47.219
Like it's called Voyager.

966
01:00:47.280 --> 01:00:49.619
How do we even use the same title sequence from now on?

967
01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:57.539
So, like, it's a fundamental threat to the show as an entity, and then we don't get to watch it if it's not there.

968
01:00:57.599 --> 01:01:00.239
So I think that's a really good cliffhanger.

969
01:01:00.300 --> 01:01:03.239
Um, I, I don't know.

970
01:01:03.300 --> 01:01:11.219
Obviously that Unimatrix 0 cliffhanger with the 3 assimilated crew members is pathetic and looks stupid.

971
01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:12.900
Like it's a bad final shot.

972
01:01:12.960 --> 01:01:17.400
Equinox has a, it has a terrible cliff.

973
01:01:17.400 --> 01:01:17.880
Interesting.

974
01:01:17.880 --> 01:01:19.619
But it's a really good episode.

975
01:01:19.679 --> 01:01:32.400
I think it's probably a better episode than this because having that contrast with another ship, there's been in exactly the same situation, but made all the wrong moves and it's falling apart and you think you're looking at that ship going, well, we could be watching that.

976
01:01:32.460 --> 01:01:35.099
That sounds much more interesting than Voyager.

977
01:01:35.460 --> 01:01:41.159
Is hope and fear is that one where...

978
01:01:41.159 --> 01:01:41.880
Yeah, I know.

979
01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:43.320
I don't know.

980
01:01:43.380 --> 01:01:43.980
I don't know.

981
01:01:44.039 --> 01:01:46.380
I think it bookends this season well.

982
01:01:46.440 --> 01:01:53.820
And one of the things it does is it goes back and examines Janeway's decision to team up with the Borg.

983
01:01:53.880 --> 01:02:02.340
And it has consequences for someone and that's a strange, interesting alien who seems quite likeable and you've got a lovely new set. you know, and all of that sort of thing.

984
01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:03.840
You know, I don't mind.

985
01:02:03.900 --> 01:02:05.219
So plotting, though.

986
01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:09.300
It's like compared to this, which feels like it's got a bit of, oomph.

987
01:02:09.539 --> 01:02:10.920
It really does plod that one.

988
01:02:10.980 --> 01:02:18.599
Yeah, but I think their decision instead of doing a big giant cliffhanger to do a slightly quieter ending that's a little bit introspective.

989
01:02:18.659 --> 01:02:30.360
I think that's not a bad call, and maybe it doesn't come off, and you know, then the following year they have to do a big dumb cliffhanger, and then the following year they have to do an even worse one.

990
01:02:30.420 --> 01:02:33.300
But I hope it's in the right place.

991
01:02:33.360 --> 01:02:34.739
It's in the right place.

992
01:02:34.800 --> 01:02:35.760
I just get very bored.

993
01:02:35.820 --> 01:02:37.679
Bored in a way that I'm not watching this.

994
01:02:37.739 --> 01:02:38.760
No.

995
01:02:38.820 --> 01:02:39.719
Yeah, that's true.

996
01:02:39.780 --> 01:02:40.800
This is for the 1st time ever.

997
01:02:40.860 --> 01:02:43.500
And I'm going to say this about part 2 as well.

998
01:02:43.559 --> 01:02:46.739
It's one of the things I love about part 2 is at the end, they don't reset.

999
01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:48.000
We're still in Borg space.

1000
01:02:48.059 --> 01:02:50.940
So just for a couple of episodes.

1001
01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:52.260
Voyager dares to be.

1002
01:02:52.380 --> 01:02:54.599
No, but it's three, isn't it?

1003
01:02:54.659 --> 01:02:58.320
It's Scorpion, Scorpion part 2 and the Gift for 3 episodes.

1004
01:02:58.380 --> 01:03:01.019
It's daring to say we're shifting the status quo.

1005
01:03:01.139 --> 01:03:02.820
We're gonna do something a bit more dynamic.

1006
01:03:03.179 --> 01:03:07.860
It's a peak. a little peek into a window of what Voyager could have been.

1007
01:03:07.920 --> 01:03:08.699
Yeah.

1008
01:03:08.699 --> 01:03:22.079
Do you not think it's very interesting that the creators of both Deep Space 9 and Voyager at the end of series 3 said this show needs a kick out the arse and we have got to change things?

1009
01:03:22.139 --> 01:03:30.119
And I would probably say with DS9, they managed to create an entire season that up the ante considerably.

1010
01:03:30.179 --> 01:03:34.800
I think with Voyager, they manage 3 episodes, but you know, props for that.

1011
01:03:35.280 --> 01:03:37.679
So I'll count it in then.

1012
01:03:37.739 --> 01:03:43.199
Let's go Okay, 5, 4, 32, one, and we're off.

1013
01:03:43.860 --> 01:03:45.300
Oh.

1014
01:03:45.599 --> 01:03:48.840
Okay, last time on Star Trek Voyager.

1015
01:03:48.900 --> 01:03:52.920
Oh, do we, we don't get the Think Good Thoughts line, which is a shame.

1016
01:03:52.980 --> 01:03:55.739
Um, Yeah.

1017
01:03:55.800 --> 01:03:56.639
Yeah.

1018
01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:00.239
I think this falls to pieces.

1019
01:04:00.300 --> 01:04:01.619
You think it's the director?

1020
01:04:01.679 --> 01:04:07.980
I think I could feel a definite shift in the direction between episode one and episode two.

1021
01:04:08.039 --> 01:04:11.940
Suddenly, and I know you weren't that impressed with that exploration of the ball ship.

1022
01:04:12.000 --> 01:04:14.760
But there was some attempt to do moody lighting and things like that.

1023
01:04:14.820 --> 01:04:16.500
You watch the Borg, ship scenes.

1024
01:04:16.559 --> 01:04:19.199
I know they're just extended dialogue scenes in this episode.

1025
01:04:19.320 --> 01:04:23.699
So they're not going for suspense, but it's very flat sort of green lighting.

1026
01:04:23.760 --> 01:04:26.280
Oh no, we're back to that dread.

1027
01:04:26.340 --> 01:04:27.539
Look, we're at the beginning of the season.

1028
01:04:27.599 --> 01:04:28.139
You got some money.

1029
01:04:28.199 --> 01:04:31.079
CSOJ went into a better backdrop.

1030
01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:33.480
Come on.

1031
01:04:33.659 --> 01:04:36.719
Oh, that looks even worse than it did last year.

1032
01:04:39.659 --> 01:04:41.579
Dear, oh dear.

1033
01:04:41.699 --> 01:04:43.559
Yeah, so okay.

1034
01:04:43.619 --> 01:04:56.099
I think in, in story terms, I think there isn't, there isn't attempt to sort of explore the conflict between Jane Weird Chakotay here because Chakotay disobeys her, doesn't he?

1035
01:04:56.579 --> 01:04:58.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1036
01:04:58.860 --> 01:05:04.260
But I don't buy why he does that.

1037
01:05:04.320 --> 01:05:06.480
I don't know why he disobeys her.

1038
01:05:06.539 --> 01:05:08.280
For the drama, Nathan.

1039
01:05:08.340 --> 01:05:10.199
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1040
01:05:10.260 --> 01:05:13.019
But so he doesn't have a good character motivation for it.

1041
01:05:13.139 --> 01:05:24.539
Um, so, like, actually, I think that her on the screen with the Borg thing in the background is better than last.

1042
01:05:24.599 --> 01:05:26.400
It's still pretty bad though.

1043
01:05:26.579 --> 01:05:29.940
Yeah, but I do think it is better than the last episode.

1044
01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:31.920
Uh, yeah.

1045
01:05:31.980 --> 01:05:34.440
Yeah, I think, I don't know what it is.

1046
01:05:34.500 --> 01:05:36.659
They closer up on that computer thing.

1047
01:05:36.719 --> 01:05:38.579
It is annoying that they do this, you know.

1048
01:05:38.639 --> 01:05:50.280
They left us in a, you know, an impossible situation full of danger, and anything could happen, and then Jemma just pops up and goes, well, I've sorted that out now, you know, we're all okay.

1049
01:05:51.420 --> 01:05:54.179
Some might say that's anticlimactic.

1050
01:05:54.300 --> 01:06:00.599
Well, except that, you know, all that requires us is to reinterpret what we saw at the end of the last episode.

1051
01:06:00.659 --> 01:06:07.559
So what we saw at the end of the last episode was the was Voyager being dragged away by the cube.

1052
01:06:07.619 --> 01:06:10.619
Yeah, out of harm's way.

1053
01:06:10.679 --> 01:06:13.920
Um, you know, after a Borg planet was destroyed.

1054
01:06:14.460 --> 01:06:18.719
And now the episode, this episode's about something different.

1055
01:06:18.780 --> 01:06:26.039
This episode's now about the conflict between Janeway and Jakotay.

1056
01:06:26.099 --> 01:06:31.800
And so it's already been established that the Chakose is a bit nervous about this deal.

1057
01:06:31.920 --> 01:06:38.880
Yeah, but I don't understand why the moment he's in charge, he disobeys her.

1058
01:06:38.940 --> 01:06:43.860
And I think that's disloyal into a bad core.

1059
01:06:43.980 --> 01:06:49.019
Best of both worlds, part 2 where Riker spends ages agonising.

1060
01:06:49.079 --> 01:06:53.639
And there's that fabulous scene with Gynon, where she goes, well, the card's gone.

1061
01:06:53.699 --> 01:06:54.840
I've accepted he's gone.

1062
01:06:54.900 --> 01:06:56.579
You've got to accept he's gone.

1063
01:06:56.639 --> 01:07:02.099
But it's sort of like half an episode before he can actually do anything because because he respects himself. you're right.

1064
01:07:02.159 --> 01:07:04.800
Chakotay immediately just goes, well, that's not what I would do.

1065
01:07:04.860 --> 01:07:06.000
She says, all right, she's asleep.

1066
01:07:06.059 --> 01:07:07.079
I'm going to go and do the thing.

1067
01:07:07.139 --> 01:07:09.840
And it's just like she's like, she's unconscious.

1068
01:07:09.900 --> 01:07:11.159
She's sort of injured and stuff.

1069
01:07:11.219 --> 01:07:14.760
I don't know why he thinks it's okay to do that.

1070
01:07:14.820 --> 01:07:22.800
And I don't like, you know, we see people disobey their superior offices and stuff on Voyager all the time.

1071
01:07:22.860 --> 01:07:24.659
It happened in Picard season three.

1072
01:07:24.719 --> 01:07:30.179
You know, that's not the problem. from a character point of view or from his viewpoint.

1073
01:07:30.239 --> 01:07:34.500
I don't know why he does it. why he has so little faith in the deal.

1074
01:07:34.559 --> 01:07:53.159
I don't remember if you remember, it's the very thing why Ron Moore stepped onto Voyager and then stepped off again straight away because the 1st episode he got was Equinox 2 where Janeway goes on this mad manhunt after ransom to the point where she's threatening to suck people out of airlocks and things like this and torturing people.

1075
01:07:53.219 --> 01:07:55.320
And he's like why is she doing this?

1076
01:07:55.380 --> 01:07:58.619
And they're all going, well, you know, there's a really exciting scene.

1077
01:07:58.679 --> 01:07:59.880
Exciting.

1078
01:07:59.940 --> 01:08:02.400
Why, what's her motivation?

1079
01:08:02.460 --> 01:08:05.340
And he's like, oh, you guys, I just can't get on board with that.

1080
01:08:05.400 --> 01:08:09.659
Well, look, can I regale you with a quote from director Winrich Cobb?

1081
01:08:09.719 --> 01:08:10.679
Is that how you say it, Colby?

1082
01:08:10.739 --> 01:08:13.320
Oh, this is, yeah, Winrick.

1083
01:08:13.380 --> 01:08:14.340
Rick, Rick Coleman.

1084
01:08:14.639 --> 01:08:17.579
The last time we saw him, he was directing the siege of AR 558.

1085
01:08:17.819 --> 01:08:20.399
And he directed all good things, I think.

1086
01:08:20.460 --> 01:08:21.300
He did?

1087
01:08:21.359 --> 01:08:21.840
Yes, he did.

1088
01:08:21.960 --> 01:08:23.640
He gets some big episodes.

1089
01:08:23.699 --> 01:08:41.579
So what he says about the Jane Wedge Kote conflict is, I pushed for it because I wanted to explore the relationship between a disabled commander and her 2nd in command and the military perspective on what you would do if your 2nd in line disagrees with the 1st in line and the 1st in line is out.

1090
01:08:41.939 --> 01:08:44.699
Though the orders she left were very clear.

1091
01:08:44.760 --> 01:08:49.500
We didn't result with a happy ending and they don't just say, well, our friendship has to survive.

1092
01:08:49.560 --> 01:08:56.819
I wanted a real dressing down and I wanted to make sure that everybody knew that what Chakotay did was a court-martial offence.

1093
01:08:56.939 --> 01:09:06.960
I never got that far, but actress Kate Mulgrew and I kept pushing Brannan Bragger on the idea that we had to show a conflict and that conflicts don't have to be resolved.

1094
01:09:07.079 --> 01:09:08.460
Yeah.

1095
01:09:08.460 --> 01:09:13.739
It looks like the actors and the director understood the drama better than the writer.

1096
01:09:14.039 --> 01:09:40.319
Yeah, and in fact, what they do, what they do, the reason that they throw it away is they say, um, you know, 7 said that our conflict would be our downfall, the fact that we have conflict and that we all have to have our own opinions and stuff, that's a weakness, uh, and, um, we need to show her that in fact, that's our strength.

1097
01:09:40.380 --> 01:09:43.800
But it just doesn't land.

1098
01:09:43.859 --> 01:10:04.859
And I'm kind of happy, like one of the things that I like in drama is when a character forgives another character, without making them abase themselves, do you know what I mean, without humiliating them, without requiring them to apologise, someone loves someone enough to just forgive them and let it go.

1099
01:10:04.920 --> 01:10:06.539
But we don't get that here either.

1100
01:10:06.600 --> 01:10:07.739
They just kind of bury it.

1101
01:10:07.800 --> 01:10:11.640
Do you remember when Odo betrays Kira in behind the lines?

1102
01:10:11.699 --> 01:10:16.619
Do you remember, he's off having it off with a female changeling whilst they're trying to stable the station?

1103
01:10:16.619 --> 01:10:20.819
And she says to her in the next episode, you know, oh, no, we are way past sorry.

1104
01:10:20.880 --> 01:10:24.000
And that Dominion little arc ends.

1105
01:10:24.119 --> 01:10:27.239
They've got the station back, but they've still got this unresolved tension.

1106
01:10:27.300 --> 01:10:30.479
Then it's the Daxel War wedding episode and Kira and Odo.

1107
01:10:30.600 --> 01:10:32.279
And they just, they go into a cupboard.

1108
01:10:33.239 --> 01:10:34.800
No, they go into a cupboard.

1109
01:10:34.859 --> 01:10:39.420
You're in the pie and then Dax can hear them talking and she says, oh, what are you doing in there?

1110
01:10:39.479 --> 01:10:40.260
We've just been talking.

1111
01:10:40.319 --> 01:10:40.979
We're all right now.

1112
01:10:41.039 --> 01:10:42.119
And they come out.

1113
01:10:43.979 --> 01:10:46.020
That's how you do it.

1114
01:10:46.439 --> 01:10:50.640
Yeah, yeah, don't make us watch it is the important thing.

1115
01:10:50.699 --> 01:10:54.600
I thought you were going to say that they'd been fucking in the cupboard. it was all forgiven.

1116
01:10:57.420 --> 01:10:59.220
Could you imagine?

1117
01:10:59.279 --> 01:11:02.159
there a scene in this, though, where Jakotay says, sorry. can't remember.

1118
01:11:02.760 --> 01:11:04.739
Does he apologise?

1119
01:11:04.800 --> 01:11:05.760
No, I don't think there is.

1120
01:11:05.819 --> 01:11:06.779
And I think that's a problem.

1121
01:11:06.840 --> 01:11:07.800
Yeah.

1122
01:11:07.859 --> 01:11:10.199
And where, why does he disagree with it?

1123
01:11:10.260 --> 01:11:12.840
He does say to her it's wrong, doesn't he?

1124
01:11:12.899 --> 01:11:14.460
He says, this is wrong.

1125
01:11:14.520 --> 01:11:19.560
We don't know what the consequences are going to be. which is true of everything.

1126
01:11:19.619 --> 01:11:21.779
Like, that's a dumb argument.

1127
01:11:21.840 --> 01:11:23.579
We don't know what the consequences are going to be.

1128
01:11:23.640 --> 01:11:25.800
We don't know what the consequences of anything. are going to be.

1129
01:11:25.859 --> 01:11:29.699
Like if it's wrong to do something where you're not sure what the consequences are.

1130
01:11:29.760 --> 01:11:31.140
Well, you know that's just stupid.

1131
01:11:31.260 --> 01:11:37.439
And then he, you know, he tells the scorpion story which everyone knows and we're forced to sit through anyway.

1132
01:11:38.039 --> 01:11:42.899
I love the fact it's not even a dreadful metaphor that they've made up for the episode.

1133
01:11:42.960 --> 01:11:44.699
No, no.

1134
01:11:44.760 --> 01:11:46.439
I don't think it works.

1135
01:11:46.560 --> 01:11:48.600
I just don't think it works.

1136
01:11:48.659 --> 01:11:51.779
They do try and betray...

1137
01:11:51.779 --> 01:11:57.659
Boy, just crew. once they've got what they want. 7 of 9 does say, you know, well, I'll see it, we're gonna have.

1138
01:11:57.720 --> 01:11:59.159
We can have your shit now as well.

1139
01:11:59.220 --> 01:12:01.619
So he's not entirely wrong.

1140
01:12:01.680 --> 01:12:03.060
No, that's right.

1141
01:12:03.119 --> 01:12:06.359
And he does get to, um, and that is the scorpion, isn't it?

1142
01:12:06.420 --> 01:12:07.140
It's stinging you.

1143
01:12:07.199 --> 01:12:08.100
It just can't help itself.

1144
01:12:08.159 --> 01:12:14.699
Kind of having your cake and eating it because Jane weighs right in the they do need to work together and that is the solution.

1145
01:12:14.760 --> 01:12:19.680
And Chakotay is right because once the solution is found, the ball try and turn on them.

1146
01:12:19.739 --> 01:12:21.779
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1147
01:12:22.020 --> 01:12:26.939
Which which is, you know, like, it would be a bit disappointing if they didn't, actually.

1148
01:12:27.000 --> 01:12:28.560
If they went, well, thank you very much.

1149
01:12:28.619 --> 01:12:29.220
We're off.

1150
01:12:29.279 --> 01:12:30.899
Yeah, yeah, we're off now.

1151
01:12:30.960 --> 01:12:31.619
Yeah, that's right.

1152
01:12:31.680 --> 01:12:32.279
That's right.

1153
01:12:32.340 --> 01:12:33.239
That would kind of.

1154
01:12:33.239 --> 01:12:34.979
Yes.

1155
01:12:35.579 --> 01:12:41.340
So this is kind of the we're about to have a seismic shift in Voyager this very soon.

1156
01:12:41.399 --> 01:12:50.520
The creation of 7 is kind of happening here and it's actually, um, it's Janeway's idea, isn't it?

1157
01:12:50.579 --> 01:12:51.720
Like it's her idea.

1158
01:12:51.779 --> 01:12:53.939
Like choose a representative.

1159
01:12:54.000 --> 01:12:57.899
I think this is the 2nd best decision they made on boys.

1160
01:12:57.960 --> 01:13:00.300
The 1st was the female captain and K-Moll group.

1161
01:13:00.600 --> 01:13:05.819
But essentially, and and what it leads to in this season and beyond.

1162
01:13:05.880 --> 01:13:11.159
It's just loads of wonderful scenes of excellent actresses working together.

1163
01:13:11.220 --> 01:13:14.819
Roxanne Dawson, Jerry Ryan, Kate Mulgrew.

1164
01:13:14.880 --> 01:13:16.260
Yep.

1165
01:13:16.380 --> 01:13:18.479
And just being brilliant.

1166
01:13:18.539 --> 01:13:20.760
The writing's not always there, but the acting is.

1167
01:13:20.819 --> 01:13:21.420
No.

1168
01:13:21.479 --> 01:13:22.680
Well, that's right.

1169
01:13:22.739 --> 01:13:30.899
And those 3 are all terrific, I think. you know, their their standouts and, you know, the best Robert, obviously, and Tim Ross is pretty great.

1170
01:13:31.020 --> 01:13:35.460
All they needed was to keep Sesker on and imagine the 4 of them together in a thing.

1171
01:13:37.439 --> 01:13:39.359
Well, she does come back.

1172
01:13:39.420 --> 01:13:40.199
Not enough.

1173
01:13:40.199 --> 01:13:41.279
She will come back once more.

1174
01:13:41.399 --> 01:13:42.359
Never enough, Nathan.

1175
01:13:42.420 --> 01:13:44.039
Hello, Chakotay.

1176
01:13:44.100 --> 01:13:44.579
Here we go.

1177
01:13:44.640 --> 01:13:45.600
Got your baby here.

1178
01:13:47.819 --> 01:13:50.520
Do you see what I mean about the lighting?

1179
01:13:50.579 --> 01:13:52.319
I know this is a functioning ball cube.

1180
01:13:52.380 --> 01:13:54.239
But this is very flat.

1181
01:13:54.300 --> 01:13:54.600
Yeah.

1182
01:13:54.720 --> 01:13:56.699
Yeah, yeah.

1183
01:13:56.760 --> 01:13:57.899
Yeah.

1184
01:13:57.960 --> 01:14:00.300
I don't know why they're going for yellow.

1185
01:14:00.300 --> 01:14:04.739
In both episodes, they go for yellow, and we all know the colour for Borg is green.

1186
01:14:04.800 --> 01:14:06.779
I don't know why they're going for yellow.

1187
01:14:07.319 --> 01:14:11.220
It's a sort of it's an ugly colour to look at, isn't it?

1188
01:14:11.279 --> 01:14:12.840
They do get it right, though.

1189
01:14:12.899 --> 01:14:14.520
I think in sort of dark frontier.

1190
01:14:14.579 --> 01:14:19.800
They going for the same colour scheme, but they do it in a much more visual, very sort of dramatic way.

1191
01:14:19.979 --> 01:14:23.819
Do you know, I haven't watched Dark Frontier for so long.

1192
01:14:23.880 --> 01:14:26.340
It may pop up on the randomiser at some point.

1193
01:14:26.399 --> 01:14:27.119
It may.

1194
01:14:27.180 --> 01:14:28.020
That would be interesting.

1195
01:14:28.380 --> 01:14:33.119
Would you like to hear from Jerry Ryan herself about recording this episode?

1196
01:14:33.180 --> 01:14:33.659
She's here.

1197
01:14:34.380 --> 01:14:40.079
It never occurred to me that I'd be playing a full Borg, but any substantial period of time.

1198
01:14:40.140 --> 01:14:42.720
But that's exactly what I did in the 1st 2 episodes.

1199
01:14:42.779 --> 01:14:46.140
All I knew or thought was that other than the Borg.

1200
01:14:46.199 --> 01:14:49.439
Oh, sorry, other than the ball queen, the Borg hardly speak.

1201
01:14:49.560 --> 01:14:57.180
They'd given me 1st contract to watch, but already said to me, ignore what the ball queen does in that because 7 of 9 is a hybrid.

1202
01:14:57.539 --> 01:14:58.920
Yeah.

1203
01:14:59.039 --> 01:15:04.560
When the 1st script came out to me, I just panicked, called the writers and said, what is this?

1204
01:15:04.619 --> 01:15:06.300
I didn't know I'd have to talk.

1205
01:15:06.359 --> 01:15:08.279
I was completely at a loss.

1206
01:15:08.699 --> 01:15:10.560
What am I doing?

1207
01:15:10.619 --> 01:15:11.100
She said.

1208
01:15:11.159 --> 01:15:12.960
You've got give me some kind of a clue.

1209
01:15:13.140 --> 01:15:17.039
The answer was, we're creating something new.

1210
01:15:17.100 --> 01:15:18.960
The character is a whole new alien.

1211
01:15:19.920 --> 01:15:21.300
Okay.

1212
01:15:21.359 --> 01:15:22.140
That's all she got.

1213
01:15:22.680 --> 01:15:25.199
I think she does really well.

1214
01:15:25.319 --> 01:15:26.939
Like, if that's it.

1215
01:15:27.000 --> 01:15:30.960
If she gets nothing, she's good in this scene, don't you think?

1216
01:15:31.079 --> 01:15:39.180
Like the arrogance, which is what she settles on, the arrogance, like the way she dismisses them.

1217
01:15:39.239 --> 01:15:41.039
It's good.

1218
01:15:41.100 --> 01:15:43.439
I think it's a little one though. is all.

1219
01:15:43.500 --> 01:15:44.340
Sure.

1220
01:15:44.399 --> 01:15:47.159
I think pretty much story, isn't it?

1221
01:15:47.220 --> 01:15:48.359
You have to start from one note.

1222
01:15:48.420 --> 01:15:51.899
You know, we talk about sort of the murder she wrote, guest actor of the week.

1223
01:15:51.960 --> 01:15:54.659
I think I think that sort of actor could play this role.

1224
01:15:54.720 --> 01:16:00.600
It's when she's then human and having to deliver the sort of cross between the Borg and the human.

1225
01:16:00.659 --> 01:16:02.520
That's when you need a skilled actress.

1226
01:16:02.579 --> 01:16:04.439
And when she really...

1227
01:16:04.500 --> 01:16:10.680
Also the thing that I think is great is that she actually does comedy well, don't you think?

1228
01:16:10.739 --> 01:16:12.840
Like she's, she can be funny.

1229
01:16:12.899 --> 01:16:14.159
She's hilarious.

1230
01:16:14.220 --> 01:16:18.479
I'll never, ever stop talking about that scene where she's playing Robert Picardo.

1231
01:16:19.079 --> 01:16:21.539
Oh yeah, that's so great.

1232
01:16:22.560 --> 01:16:24.060
So good.

1233
01:16:24.119 --> 01:16:31.319
No, I would have seen in someone to watch over me. where she goes up to the fella and goes, you're going on a date with me.

1234
01:16:31.380 --> 01:16:31.920
All right.

1235
01:16:31.979 --> 01:16:36.239
Yeah Like it.

1236
01:16:36.300 --> 01:16:41.399
When she stopped singing in, um, in, is it the killing game?

1237
01:16:41.460 --> 01:16:51.479
She stops singing and then she she kind of comes to and goes, I must discontinue this activity and then walks off because she doesn't even know what to call it.

1238
01:16:51.479 --> 01:16:52.619
So good.

1239
01:16:52.680 --> 01:16:53.760
All right.

1240
01:16:53.819 --> 01:16:57.899
So Kess is here still, somehow, she's still with us on the show.

1241
01:16:57.960 --> 01:17:03.119
We have said that we do quite like cares when they remember that she's there.

1242
01:17:03.239 --> 01:17:07.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think she's great, and I think her and the doctor are very good as well.

1243
01:17:07.979 --> 01:17:09.420
I think very good together.

1244
01:17:09.539 --> 01:17:18.060
I think people would dismiss this, but I think the gift is one of the best Voyager episodes, and I think because the emphasis is on Janeway and 7 and cares.

1245
01:17:18.600 --> 01:17:22.920
And there's some seriously good acting going on in that episode.

1246
01:17:22.979 --> 01:17:24.600
And it's just a character piece.

1247
01:17:24.659 --> 01:17:26.880
Apart from that beer, the game wherever, which gets flung.

1248
01:17:27.000 --> 01:17:28.380
Yeah.

1249
01:17:30.119 --> 01:17:35.579
Yeah, where we go straight back to the status quo anti and don't have to deal with any of this.

1250
01:17:35.640 --> 01:17:40.920
We just fling us into some other place altogether and we don't have to deal with the consequences.

1251
01:17:40.979 --> 01:17:52.260
But, I think what's really good about the gift too is just that sudden thing where she just has to go, you know, and and Kate's really quite distressed by that.

1252
01:17:52.260 --> 01:17:54.420
And, there's a secret.

1253
01:17:54.479 --> 01:17:58.260
It's really not at all what they would have wanted.

1254
01:17:58.319 --> 01:17:58.859
It's so good.

1255
01:17:58.920 --> 01:18:05.699
Do you remember where she's in a sort of pink nighty when Kez comes to visit her and she's holding her face because she knows she's going to go.

1256
01:18:05.760 --> 01:18:07.800
It's like the last time she's gonna see it.

1257
01:18:07.859 --> 01:18:09.840
It's so gorgeous.

1258
01:18:10.680 --> 01:18:13.800
I've got one last quote here from Jerry Ryan.

1259
01:18:13.859 --> 01:18:19.920
Because it gives us a clue into sort of what she eventually tapped into to play the ball drone.

1260
01:18:19.979 --> 01:18:22.920
She said, I was absolutely panic stricken.

1261
01:18:22.979 --> 01:18:26.220
And I begged Win Rich Colby for advice.

1262
01:18:26.279 --> 01:18:33.000
I managed to find her voice and exactly what it was that made her tick when Rick Colby helped me to figure it out.

1263
01:18:33.060 --> 01:18:36.659
He gave me the image of a Prussian general.

1264
01:18:36.779 --> 01:18:40.079
He said, she's not a robot and she's not a ball queen.

1265
01:18:40.140 --> 01:18:45.239
She's not that free, but she has this military bearing and the presence of a Prussian general.

1266
01:18:45.300 --> 01:18:46.979
So that's what she's like.

1267
01:18:47.039 --> 01:18:49.439
Rick Colby speaks with a German accent, I think.

1268
01:18:49.500 --> 01:18:51.239
I'm sure that I've seen him interviewed.

1269
01:18:51.300 --> 01:18:54.359
That's brilliant, and that is exactly it.

1270
01:18:54.420 --> 01:19:02.100
It is the imperiousness, the contempt, the inflexibility, the kind of rigid certainty that she's correct.

1271
01:19:02.100 --> 01:19:06.119
And like this threat, the way she delivers this threat.

1272
01:19:06.180 --> 01:19:09.060
And there is a little bit of a sneer behind the thread.

1273
01:19:09.119 --> 01:19:10.380
It's not affectless.

1274
01:19:10.439 --> 01:19:11.460
She isn't a robot.

1275
01:19:11.579 --> 01:19:16.439
I think, I think, I think she's nailing it straight away.

1276
01:19:16.500 --> 01:19:19.319
Go ahead and watch the gift after this.

1277
01:19:19.319 --> 01:19:23.159
She's even better because she's really angry.

1278
01:19:23.399 --> 01:19:26.520
But this decision's being made for her.

1279
01:19:26.579 --> 01:19:29.760
But still within the same confines of that Borg logic.

1280
01:19:30.239 --> 01:19:31.560
Yeah.

1281
01:19:32.279 --> 01:19:54.840
Well, I mean, people compare her to data or Spock, you know, the character on the Star Trek episode who has some weird relationship with humanity, you know, and data it wants to be human and and, you know, 7 finds herself becoming human against her will and has to deal with all of that.

1282
01:19:55.619 --> 01:19:58.380
But I do think that...

1283
01:19:58.439 --> 01:20:11.760
Well, I was going to say that in 90s trek, I think they pretty much got it spot on when they were casting irregulars, even if those regulars had to sort of feel their way into the roles for a couple of years.

1284
01:20:11.819 --> 01:20:13.500
Well, yeah.

1285
01:20:13.560 --> 01:20:16.020
I mean, me, they lucked out with Jerry Ryan.

1286
01:20:16.079 --> 01:20:17.220
Oh yeah.

1287
01:20:17.279 --> 01:20:29.220
Like, by all accounts, they had, they were thinking about 7 and 9 from Scorpion part one, but they refused to put her in Scorpion part one because they wanted the entire summer to do casting auditions.

1288
01:20:29.520 --> 01:20:31.079
Wow.

1289
01:20:31.140 --> 01:20:33.720
So they really, really sort of worked on this.

1290
01:20:33.779 --> 01:20:40.500
Oh, I, this was about these scenes with the, the, the, the, alcoves inside Voyager.

1291
01:20:40.560 --> 01:20:43.800
This was the best innovation they did because it stays, doesn't it?

1292
01:20:43.859 --> 01:20:45.300
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1293
01:20:45.359 --> 01:20:45.659
Yeah.

1294
01:20:45.720 --> 01:20:46.380
Yeah.

1295
01:20:46.439 --> 01:21:01.979
But I mean, that whole sequence back then with the, with the, the ships, the bioships attacking our cube. finally, you know, we've had, what, not quite half the episode, a 3rd of the episode, where they haven't been in it.

1296
01:21:02.039 --> 01:21:06.119
You know, we've just been negotiating with the Borg and now here they are back again.

1297
01:21:07.140 --> 01:21:11.520
Yeah, and just the surprise, the surprise of them beaming over.

1298
01:21:11.579 --> 01:21:14.939
How did how did all of this machinery appear on Voyager?

1299
01:21:15.000 --> 01:21:16.739
Did the ball just send it all over?

1300
01:21:16.800 --> 01:21:18.239
They beat it?

1301
01:21:18.300 --> 01:21:18.779
Yeah, yeah.

1302
01:21:18.840 --> 01:21:20.100
They beamed them over before him.

1303
01:21:20.159 --> 01:21:21.600
No thing was being destroyed.

1304
01:21:21.659 --> 01:21:26.939
Mind you, the other really, really great moment in this. is where all the Borgs get sucked out into space.

1305
01:21:27.000 --> 01:21:28.680
I love that.

1306
01:21:29.399 --> 01:21:32.340
Except she holds onto a thing.

1307
01:21:32.399 --> 01:21:35.520
We've been there before and dramatis persona.

1308
01:21:35.579 --> 01:21:38.760
If you hold onto a console with your fingers, you know.

1309
01:21:38.760 --> 01:21:40.380
Yeah, yeah.

1310
01:21:40.439 --> 01:21:42.359
It's just a lie for you.

1311
01:21:42.899 --> 01:21:49.140
And so Janeway is unconscious so it's time to completely just annul a deal.

1312
01:21:49.199 --> 01:21:51.420
Like, what a dickhead, honestly.

1313
01:21:51.479 --> 01:21:52.920
Yeah.

1314
01:21:52.979 --> 01:22:06.779
Like, yeah, I do this a lot, but DS9 would give you that scene at the end. where the person would be dressed down and said, you do this again in your, you know, I'll send you back to the academy.

1315
01:22:07.439 --> 01:22:22.319
I also think there's something unpleasant about it that it undermines his character and that scene, that beautiful scene in episode one where she says how much her, you know, the relationship means to her.

1316
01:22:22.380 --> 01:22:26.399
Like having him betray that makes him an asshole.

1317
01:22:26.520 --> 01:22:27.899
That's the other thing as well.

1318
01:22:27.960 --> 01:22:33.119
And because he's got, like we've said before, there is no substance to his decision. just a gut feeling.

1319
01:22:33.180 --> 01:22:39.539
He's prepared to sacrifice that longstanding relationship he's got with somebody who admires.

1320
01:22:39.600 --> 01:22:40.199
Yeah.

1321
01:22:40.319 --> 01:22:42.840
But, you know, like, have you been?

1322
01:22:43.380 --> 01:22:46.619
Yeah, have you been in a hierarchy before where you have a boss?

1323
01:22:46.739 --> 01:22:50.279
He was a market, ask you to do things you don't agree with?

1324
01:22:50.340 --> 01:22:53.159
Like, it's, yeah, it's crazy.

1325
01:22:53.220 --> 01:22:55.140
But doesn't she beg him now?

1326
01:22:55.199 --> 01:22:56.039
Doesn't she say no?

1327
01:22:56.159 --> 01:22:57.659
Keep going with the Borg.

1328
01:22:57.720 --> 01:22:59.039
Yes, trust the deal.

1329
01:22:59.100 --> 01:23:00.960
That makes it seem even worse.

1330
01:23:01.020 --> 01:23:03.239
Yeah, yeah much worse.

1331
01:23:03.300 --> 01:23:04.739
It's so it's stupid.

1332
01:23:04.800 --> 01:23:05.880
It's am fisted.

1333
01:23:05.939 --> 01:23:06.779
But do you know what?

1334
01:23:06.779 --> 01:23:08.819
There's no way for him to come out of this good.

1335
01:23:08.939 --> 01:23:12.119
Like, you know, unlike your Voyager of the week episode.

1336
01:23:12.180 --> 01:23:14.039
It has given us something to rail against him.

1337
01:23:14.100 --> 01:23:15.899
We are feeling something about this material.

1338
01:23:15.960 --> 01:23:17.399
Yeah, yeah.

1339
01:23:17.460 --> 01:23:21.960
Even if it's just feel that it's idiotic.

1340
01:23:22.500 --> 01:23:23.880
Yeah.

1341
01:23:23.939 --> 01:23:24.600
No, no, no.

1342
01:23:24.659 --> 01:23:37.380
I think this is a poorly written central thing and it spoils this episode because he's behaving the way he behaves for no reason and he's and he's doing a bad thing and there are no consequences.

1343
01:23:37.439 --> 01:23:40.439
Yeah, well, I think a lot of Voyager episodes do that, though.

1344
01:23:40.920 --> 01:23:43.920
This is unfortunately, this is a pivotal one.

1345
01:23:43.979 --> 01:23:45.659
That's why it's sort of...

1346
01:23:45.720 --> 01:23:46.979
More obvious.

1347
01:23:47.039 --> 01:23:50.880
It's just the what has, if what had gone wrong.

1348
01:23:51.539 --> 01:23:57.600
If what had gone wrong. proved that Chakotay was right.

1349
01:23:57.779 --> 01:23:58.739
Right?

1350
01:23:58.800 --> 01:24:07.079
If Chakotay's thought that the ball could be trusted, and then the Borg do a bad thing, right?

1351
01:24:07.140 --> 01:24:14.399
And that's why she's taken out, but she says, please try to repair the relationship and he tries but fails.

1352
01:24:14.460 --> 01:24:15.720
Do you know what I mean?

1353
01:24:15.779 --> 01:24:18.000
If he was in some way validated by what had gone on.

1354
01:24:18.060 --> 01:24:23.039
But it's just the moment 8472 attack and she's disabled.

1355
01:24:23.100 --> 01:24:27.239
He's right, right, the deal's over, even though the deal hadn't been failing.

1356
01:24:27.300 --> 01:24:28.920
Nothing had gone wrong with the deal.

1357
01:24:28.979 --> 01:24:30.600
I think they think...

1358
01:24:30.600 --> 01:24:32.520
In fact, the conflict...

1359
01:24:32.579 --> 01:24:33.600
The conflict's enough.

1360
01:24:33.659 --> 01:24:35.220
The fact that they're at each other.

1361
01:24:35.279 --> 01:24:36.239
That's dramatic enough.

1362
01:24:37.079 --> 01:24:38.460
Yeah.

1363
01:24:38.460 --> 01:24:43.140
We don't we don't know these characters enough for these decisions to make any sense.

1364
01:24:43.619 --> 01:24:45.239
That's it.

1365
01:24:45.300 --> 01:24:50.640
Well, I just think, but I think the decisions don't make sense and they're not thought through and I think that undermines it.

1366
01:24:50.699 --> 01:24:55.500
I think that that what makes this central, that's what makes this central con... conflict.

1367
01:24:55.560 --> 01:25:03.479
And that's what makes the 7 Janeway relationship so good is that it's such a simple premise.

1368
01:25:03.539 --> 01:25:05.340
She's chosen to turn her into a human being.

1369
01:25:05.399 --> 01:25:09.840
She's pissed about that and everything that she's having to experience for the 1st time.

1370
01:25:09.899 --> 01:25:11.939
We understand seven.

1371
01:25:12.000 --> 01:25:13.500
We understand Janeway.

1372
01:25:13.560 --> 01:25:16.680
We know why the decisions have been made, and there's just natural conflict there.

1373
01:25:16.800 --> 01:25:21.420
Plus the actors are at, you know, we know the behind the scenes here as well.

1374
01:25:21.479 --> 01:25:23.460
It's sizzling for a reason.

1375
01:25:24.779 --> 01:25:27.779
So there's something here, isn't there?

1376
01:25:27.840 --> 01:25:42.420
Maybe it's the thing where 7 confronts him and says, yeah, like she says we need to change the deal because we've lost the chip or whatever, and he says, all right, you can have the non-of probes and then piss off or whatever.

1377
01:25:42.600 --> 01:25:46.500
Strange to think, you know, that there'll be snog in in a couple of seasons time.

1378
01:25:46.560 --> 01:25:48.300
Yeah, I thought that too.

1379
01:25:49.079 --> 01:25:54.000
Look, look how ineffectual Chakotay looks in Janeway seat.

1380
01:25:54.720 --> 01:25:57.840
He looks like a very small man in her seat.

1381
01:25:57.899 --> 01:25:59.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1382
01:25:59.819 --> 01:26:01.439
Look at his body language.

1383
01:26:01.500 --> 01:26:02.640
He sort of hunched, doesn't he?

1384
01:26:02.880 --> 01:26:04.260
Yeah.

1385
01:26:05.340 --> 01:26:08.880
I don't think he was ever meant for the captain's chair, Nathan.

1386
01:26:09.000 --> 01:26:10.979
No, I think you're right.

1387
01:26:11.039 --> 01:26:12.060
That is actually it.

1388
01:26:12.119 --> 01:26:13.199
And it's, I don't know.

1389
01:26:13.260 --> 01:26:15.539
Look at everybody around the table.

1390
01:26:15.600 --> 01:26:17.699
I think any of them agree with him.

1391
01:26:17.760 --> 01:26:20.220
They're all looking at each other like, are we doing this?

1392
01:26:20.279 --> 01:26:21.000
Yeah, yeah.

1393
01:26:21.479 --> 01:26:23.699
Yeah, it's funny, isn't it?

1394
01:26:23.760 --> 01:26:25.260
It is a funny reaction.

1395
01:26:28.380 --> 01:26:40.199
I think it's even more explicit, you know, in Equinox part 2, where Chakotay is on the verge of staging a coup on Voyager because Janeway is behaving...

1396
01:26:40.260 --> 01:26:40.500
Yeah.

1397
01:26:40.560 --> 01:26:41.039
Yeah.

1398
01:26:41.100 --> 01:26:43.260
But here she wasn't.

1399
01:26:43.319 --> 01:26:44.220
I mean, he or she wasn't.

1400
01:26:44.279 --> 01:26:48.659
She was doing something that he didn't agree with, but...

1401
01:26:48.659 --> 01:26:52.500
Be nice to her, though, because he said it in Scorpion part one, you're the captain.

1402
01:26:52.560 --> 01:26:53.699
I'll follow your orders.

1403
01:26:53.760 --> 01:26:56.520
Even after he said, I don't agree with you.

1404
01:26:56.819 --> 01:26:58.140
Yeah.

1405
01:26:58.199 --> 01:26:58.859
Yeah.

1406
01:27:02.819 --> 01:27:04.920
Look at that makeup.

1407
01:27:04.979 --> 01:27:06.420
I mean, I quite like him.

1408
01:27:06.479 --> 01:27:16.979
I quite like that threat and you know, there are times when the medium Robert, you know, has a bit of steel and delivers some, you know, lines like that.

1409
01:27:17.100 --> 01:27:20.159
Which Roberts, the median, Robert, is that Robert Belgian?

1410
01:27:20.220 --> 01:27:22.560
He's the Beltrans, the made it, Robert.

1411
01:27:22.619 --> 01:27:25.140
So there's the worst, Robert, the best, Robert, and Beltran.

1412
01:27:25.260 --> 01:27:29.760
I think I think pretty much series one and 2 is where we see his acting.

1413
01:27:30.420 --> 01:27:33.180
And after that, he just phoned out.

1414
01:27:33.239 --> 01:27:33.720
Checks out.

1415
01:27:33.779 --> 01:27:34.739
Yeah.

1416
01:27:34.800 --> 01:27:35.579
Yeah.

1417
01:27:35.640 --> 01:27:42.960
But then I think the same with Tim Ross, and I think Tim Ross is a better actor, but he's just so fed up of saying churning out the same lines that...

1418
01:27:43.260 --> 01:27:54.300
Yeah, but I think, I mean, I think that there's kind of just a genuine problem that people don't think to write for him or he just doesn't, I don't know what the problem is because he's so good.

1419
01:27:54.359 --> 01:27:56.039
And whilst he's so great.

1420
01:27:56.100 --> 01:28:00.479
I do think, you know, everybody should get a fair stab of good writing in an ensemble.

1421
01:28:00.539 --> 01:28:04.800
If they are going to focus and give the best stuff to the women, I'm not going to complain.

1422
01:28:04.920 --> 01:28:05.819
That's okay.

1423
01:28:05.880 --> 01:28:08.579
Yeah, no, that's especially when it's these women.

1424
01:28:08.880 --> 01:28:11.100
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1425
01:28:11.159 --> 01:28:11.699
Yeah.

1426
01:28:11.760 --> 01:28:14.939
Well, I mean, that's the thing they've done on Discovery too, isn't it?

1427
01:28:15.000 --> 01:28:19.260
Like just whole scenes where everyone on the bridge is a woman.

1428
01:28:19.319 --> 01:28:22.619
Do you not remember that amazing scene in Dark Frontier?

1429
01:28:22.680 --> 01:28:42.300
The Cliffhanger, where they're in the ball ship, Janeway and 7, and the ball queen's saying, you know, come back to us, 709, and J, and 7 goes, you know, I'm staying, and Janeway goes, I'm not leaving here without you, and she's got a gun in her face, and 7 goes, then you will be assimilated.

1430
01:28:42.359 --> 01:28:44.880
I mean, it's peak drama, Avoyager, awesome.

1431
01:28:45.479 --> 01:28:47.640
I really need to watch that again.

1432
01:28:47.819 --> 01:28:49.380
Why what?

1433
01:28:49.439 --> 01:28:52.140
What, there's ball cubes being sliced apart?

1434
01:28:52.199 --> 01:28:54.539
Oh, yeah.

1435
01:28:54.539 --> 01:28:56.399
That's just, it's been a while.

1436
01:28:56.460 --> 01:28:58.380
It is a great cartoon, that one, isn't it?

1437
01:28:58.439 --> 01:28:58.920
Bad shot.

1438
01:29:01.020 --> 01:29:04.560
I just felt as well, like, you know...

1439
01:29:04.560 --> 01:29:10.800
With one, I felt as if it did have some pace to it and it was building up to the climax.

1440
01:29:10.859 --> 01:29:12.479
Whereas I just felt too.

1441
01:29:12.539 --> 01:29:13.680
There was no pace.

1442
01:29:13.739 --> 01:29:16.079
It just sort of rumbled along.

1443
01:29:16.140 --> 01:29:18.180
And then ended...

1444
01:29:18.239 --> 01:29:24.600
Yeah, although I like these Borg, like the, you know, this set.

1445
01:29:24.659 --> 01:29:30.779
I know we're on in a cargo bay with those regeneration chambers and stuff, but I think they look better.

1446
01:29:30.840 --> 01:29:32.279
Still all this yellow.

1447
01:29:32.340 --> 01:29:34.619
Why is everyone, do you know what, lighting everything yellow?

1448
01:29:34.680 --> 01:29:36.899
Do you remember the pacing of, um...

1449
01:29:36.899 --> 01:29:39.899
Imogen the sun and shutters and symbols?

1450
01:29:39.960 --> 01:29:48.659
images of sandwiches were very quiet and then shadows and symbols where you had those free plots and they were all going on and then it ended up with that big explosion of the shipyard.

1451
01:29:48.720 --> 01:29:58.020
I think that's the better approach, you know, sort of start slow, build to big rather than build up, have a big beginning and then just sort of fritter out.

1452
01:29:58.619 --> 01:30:11.880
Well, I mean, they kind of do that in best of both worlds and the reason is, of course, well known that they literally had no more idea how they were going to get out of it than you did when you were watching it for the 1st time.

1453
01:30:11.939 --> 01:30:14.880
It's just like, oh shit, that was really good.

1454
01:30:14.939 --> 01:30:15.779
What do we do now?

1455
01:30:15.840 --> 01:30:20.100
And they kind of only barely...

1456
01:30:20.159 --> 01:30:21.600
That sleep ending.

1457
01:30:21.659 --> 01:30:24.720
Because they're a high moist. makes perfect sense.

1458
01:30:24.779 --> 01:30:29.579
It does make sense, but you can't pull it again, can you?

1459
01:30:29.640 --> 01:30:31.020
Like, you can't do it every time.

1460
01:30:31.079 --> 01:30:33.300
Oh, look, this I love this bit.

1461
01:30:33.359 --> 01:30:38.579
I know, I know 7 of 9 survives, but look at these borg bodies been sucked out into space.

1462
01:30:40.500 --> 01:30:42.659
So good, isn't it?

1463
01:30:42.720 --> 01:30:45.960
Actually, Oh, that's so funny.

1464
01:30:46.020 --> 01:30:47.819
You know, Jerry Wright.

1465
01:30:47.880 --> 01:30:50.460
Jerry Ryan must have been like, what the fuck have I signed up for?

1466
01:30:50.520 --> 01:30:54.539
He's being dragged along a Jeffrey's suit and all those prosthetics.

1467
01:30:54.600 --> 01:30:57.899
Yeah, yeah, by her by her high heels, I think, probably.

1468
01:30:58.140 --> 01:31:12.420
But that, that little circular thing that opens in the, in the side of Voyager that we never see again that is apparently just there for that scene, it's the Borg ejection door that just appears once.

1469
01:31:13.439 --> 01:31:16.319
The amount of times we meet the ball, you know.

1470
01:31:16.380 --> 01:31:18.060
Deploy the Borg ejection door.

1471
01:31:18.119 --> 01:31:19.319
Or get Jackson door.

1472
01:31:20.220 --> 01:31:23.880
And then this, so now we're going into fluidic space.

1473
01:31:23.939 --> 01:31:28.859
I think this fish is so weird and unknowable.

1474
01:31:28.920 --> 01:31:31.439
And instead it's just a sort of gloopy mist.

1475
01:31:31.500 --> 01:31:35.640
Yeah, we're eating kind of gel. of some sort.

1476
01:31:35.699 --> 01:31:37.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1477
01:31:37.439 --> 01:31:40.619
I think it's weirder, you know, when they go into that space with no stars.

1478
01:31:40.680 --> 01:31:43.140
And it's just black, you know?

1479
01:31:43.920 --> 01:31:47.039
Yeah, it's like they're in sort of weird jelly.

1480
01:31:47.100 --> 01:31:48.300
I mean, I kind of like it.

1481
01:31:48.359 --> 01:31:50.819
It is something and it is different from what we've had.

1482
01:31:50.880 --> 01:31:52.319
Have we ever had that?

1483
01:31:52.380 --> 01:31:54.119
We go into a, yeah.

1484
01:31:54.300 --> 01:31:55.560
Jelly's all right.

1485
01:31:55.619 --> 01:31:58.260
That kind of looks like it's lime and orange.

1486
01:31:59.340 --> 01:32:02.220
But I suppose they are.

1487
01:32:02.279 --> 01:32:05.220
But like, I know Voyager is sort of airtight.

1488
01:32:05.279 --> 01:32:08.520
It'd be great, you know, if suddenly it starts seeping into the ship, you know?

1489
01:32:08.699 --> 01:32:10.500
Did she?

1490
01:32:10.560 --> 01:32:17.159
Did 77 just came over the comms and ordered Commander Chakotay to report to the cargo bag.

1491
01:32:17.220 --> 01:32:21.239
Nathan, that's pretty much how she's characterised for the next 4 years.

1492
01:32:21.300 --> 01:32:22.439
It's wonderful, isn't it?

1493
01:32:22.500 --> 01:32:23.100
It's awesome.

1494
01:32:24.119 --> 01:32:27.899
I have some much needed exposition to deliver.

1495
01:32:27.960 --> 01:32:29.880
There's loads of wonderful scenes, you know.

1496
01:32:29.939 --> 01:32:37.380
These really hot scenes between her and Bilal Torres, where she just goes to engineering and just, you know, oh, well, I wanted to use this part of engineering.

1497
01:32:37.439 --> 01:32:39.300
I didn't think to ask you, you know?

1498
01:32:39.359 --> 01:32:40.619
I know.

1499
01:32:40.619 --> 01:32:41.220
Yeah, yeah.

1500
01:32:41.220 --> 01:32:43.560
Because she's got...

1501
01:32:43.560 --> 01:32:49.140
Although, do you remember the scene where she says to Sarah, Sarah and Tom Paris about them having sex?

1502
01:32:49.199 --> 01:32:50.760
Do remember that?

1503
01:32:50.939 --> 01:32:56.340
Where she's like, she goes, what the hell do you know what we're doing in our quarters?

1504
01:32:56.399 --> 01:33:00.239
And she goes, there's nobody on deck 6 that doesn't know what's going on in your order.

1505
01:33:02.279 --> 01:33:05.760
That's a great line. think I remember that.

1506
01:33:06.960 --> 01:33:09.479
Oh, even better.

1507
01:33:09.539 --> 01:33:17.340
Do you remember the best Borg line ever is when Neelix goes, they will become whatever we want them to become.

1508
01:33:17.340 --> 01:33:21.119
And Bilada Torres goes, ooh, how Starfleet of you?

1509
01:33:21.180 --> 01:33:24.840
Well, which can be very funny, you know, when he wants to be.

1510
01:33:24.899 --> 01:33:25.739
Yeah, yeah.

1511
01:33:25.800 --> 01:33:26.460
Yeah.

1512
01:33:27.180 --> 01:33:28.680
Yes.

1513
01:33:28.739 --> 01:33:30.060
Gosh, she's good.

1514
01:33:30.119 --> 01:33:31.800
She's really great here.

1515
01:33:31.920 --> 01:33:34.800
She's absolutely in charge of this scene, isn't she?

1516
01:33:34.859 --> 01:33:36.000
Wow.

1517
01:33:36.060 --> 01:33:37.140
Look if she's playing against.

1518
01:33:37.199 --> 01:33:38.279
Of course she is.

1519
01:33:38.340 --> 01:33:40.859
Well, no, she's playing against she's playing against him.

1520
01:33:43.920 --> 01:33:47.399
I would have loved, I would have loved for Chewbok to have just...

1521
01:33:47.399 --> 01:33:51.060
I don't want to, I don't want to do Spock again and have him half human.

1522
01:33:51.119 --> 01:33:53.640
Just let him display emotion a bit more.

1523
01:33:54.119 --> 01:34:08.880
Well, no, I think that having him show warmth in his way with, I just think making him Janeway's confident would have been the thing to do.

1524
01:34:08.939 --> 01:34:17.579
The trouble with this is everyone's their job, you know, like, you know, when it starts with my key and we have relationships between ourselves and stuff like that.

1525
01:34:17.640 --> 01:34:20.399
But basically, eventually everyone's their job.

1526
01:34:20.460 --> 01:34:21.600
Oh, here we go.

1527
01:34:21.659 --> 01:34:23.399
But that relationship here we go.

1528
01:34:23.460 --> 01:34:26.399
Oh, is this where they, she gives him a dressing down.

1529
01:34:26.460 --> 01:34:28.199
She's got I hope so.

1530
01:34:28.260 --> 01:34:29.220
She should punch you in the face.

1531
01:34:29.279 --> 01:34:30.180
This is a good scene.

1532
01:34:30.239 --> 01:34:31.500
Just for how she acts there.

1533
01:34:31.739 --> 01:34:33.300
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1534
01:34:33.300 --> 01:34:37.020
The doctor's brought me up to speech, you go today, and I'm going to tell you now you are dead.

1535
01:34:37.079 --> 01:34:39.180
It's basically what she say.

1536
01:34:39.239 --> 01:34:40.979
That would have been a lot better.

1537
01:34:41.039 --> 01:34:45.359
I do like the deactivate the thing and he kind of goes, yeah, all right, I'll go.

1538
01:34:45.420 --> 01:34:46.560
I'll go.

1539
01:34:46.739 --> 01:34:48.840
This is a private moment.

1540
01:34:50.460 --> 01:34:52.260
Yeah, yeah.

1541
01:34:52.319 --> 01:34:54.000
It's so lame.

1542
01:34:54.060 --> 01:34:55.140
It's so lame.

1543
01:34:55.199 --> 01:34:57.180
Oh my god, she says, you never trust me.

1544
01:34:57.180 --> 01:34:58.439
The reasons are so poor.

1545
01:34:58.500 --> 01:35:02.460
You were just waiting for an opportunity to countermand my decision.

1546
01:35:02.579 --> 01:35:03.119
Yes.

1547
01:35:03.420 --> 01:35:08.279
Yeah, it's really like all of that is good and it's fair enough.

1548
01:35:08.340 --> 01:35:11.279
Um, Yeah.

1549
01:35:11.340 --> 01:35:11.939
Wow.

1550
01:35:12.000 --> 01:35:14.520
Oh, I think that's his ace, isn't it?

1551
01:35:14.579 --> 01:35:15.720
That he says they started it.

1552
01:35:15.779 --> 01:35:18.180
They started on Species 8472.

1553
01:35:18.359 --> 01:35:19.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1554
01:35:19.619 --> 01:35:21.060
They're responsible for this.

1555
01:35:21.060 --> 01:35:22.439
And she and you want to work with them.

1556
01:35:22.500 --> 01:35:24.119
You can see her processing that.

1557
01:35:24.180 --> 01:35:25.739
Do not what I mean?

1558
01:35:25.800 --> 01:35:28.439
She takes a little moment and she processes it and walks away.

1559
01:35:28.500 --> 01:35:29.760
You know what she says?

1560
01:35:29.819 --> 01:35:31.260
It is kind of a Trump car.

1561
01:35:31.319 --> 01:35:32.220
She goes?

1562
01:35:32.279 --> 01:35:33.060
No.

1563
01:35:33.600 --> 01:35:36.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

1564
01:35:37.800 --> 01:35:39.899
She's made her decision.

1565
01:35:39.960 --> 01:35:40.859
And I, you know what?

1566
01:35:40.920 --> 01:35:41.460
I admire that.

1567
01:35:42.359 --> 01:35:45.600
There's something a bit Maggie Thatcher about her, you know.

1568
01:35:45.659 --> 01:35:48.659
She's made a she might have made a terrible decision, but she's going to stick by it.

1569
01:35:48.840 --> 01:35:50.520
No, no.

1570
01:35:50.579 --> 01:35:53.279
I mean, she is sticking by the decision and she's right.

1571
01:35:53.340 --> 01:35:55.319
And do you know what I mean?

1572
01:35:55.380 --> 01:35:58.380
She's in charge and he wasn't like she didn't die.

1573
01:35:58.500 --> 01:36:00.300
He didn't take over.

1574
01:36:00.359 --> 01:36:03.960
You know, she told him to do a thing.

1575
01:36:04.020 --> 01:36:10.199
And because she was unconscious, that doesn't mean that he doesn't have to do the thing, you know?

1576
01:36:10.260 --> 01:36:11.699
I did like that like.

1577
01:36:11.760 --> 01:36:15.659
It's a very voyager light, but where she goes, there's 2 wars happening here out there.

1578
01:36:16.680 --> 01:36:18.180
That's a little bit shit.

1579
01:36:18.239 --> 01:36:21.359
Now we get the thing where it's just like, let's forget about it.

1580
01:36:21.420 --> 01:36:26.279
And this is like this isn't about them anymore.

1581
01:36:26.340 --> 01:36:27.420
Do you know what I mean?

1582
01:36:27.479 --> 01:36:29.760
This isn't about you and me, Chakotay.

1583
01:36:29.819 --> 01:36:38.460
This is about, you know, how the plot's working and stuff and we need to show show them that our individuality is not a weakness or whatever.

1584
01:36:38.520 --> 01:36:39.720
So we never resolve this.

1585
01:36:39.779 --> 01:36:42.479
We've had our moment of tension, Shakosay.

1586
01:36:42.539 --> 01:36:44.279
Now let's get together and fix the plot.

1587
01:36:44.340 --> 01:36:45.359
Yes, I know.

1588
01:36:45.420 --> 01:36:47.760
So they throw it away.

1589
01:36:47.819 --> 01:36:49.020
Like they wreck the ending.

1590
01:36:49.079 --> 01:36:59.640
Not only is the conflict is quoted in memory alpha of saying that they think this, this doesn't, this gets picked up later and this continues.

1591
01:36:59.699 --> 01:37:01.020
I'm like, no, it doesn't.

1592
01:37:01.079 --> 01:37:03.600
And then in the next episode, they're best mates again.

1593
01:37:03.720 --> 01:37:05.579
Yeah, yeah.

1594
01:37:05.640 --> 01:37:06.720
No, it's amazing.

1595
01:37:06.779 --> 01:37:07.260
And the same thing.

1596
01:37:07.560 --> 01:37:12.720
Equinox part 2 because they seriously clash in that one.

1597
01:37:12.720 --> 01:37:14.100
It's explosive.

1598
01:37:14.159 --> 01:37:21.420
And then in the next episode, it's what survival instinct, and he's in her quarters, and they're like, well, let's go and have some fun on this space station.

1599
01:37:21.479 --> 01:37:22.380
What?

1600
01:37:22.439 --> 01:37:23.100
Yeah.

1601
01:37:23.159 --> 01:37:24.960
I think that's bad.

1602
01:37:25.020 --> 01:37:40.199
And remember how strange new worlds does this where it is absolutely not serialised, but the characters remember their previous adventures and there are consequences in their relationships.

1603
01:37:40.260 --> 01:37:42.659
But how deep Space 9 does this at the same time.

1604
01:37:42.779 --> 01:37:45.000
Yeah, which is available to them.

1605
01:37:45.060 --> 01:37:52.560
I said to you, Senator Cretak and Kira in the next episode where just have a nice trip.

1606
01:37:52.619 --> 01:37:53.579
Yeah, all right, cheers.

1607
01:37:58.739 --> 01:38:01.560
Yeah, I mean, they could have done it.

1608
01:38:01.619 --> 01:38:06.420
You can still do standalone episodes and not throw away the character work.

1609
01:38:06.479 --> 01:38:11.039
But they're not interested in it and they're aggressively not interested in it.

1610
01:38:11.100 --> 01:38:12.420
And it's not good enough.

1611
01:38:12.479 --> 01:38:15.600
It was just passable in Star Trek the Next Generation.

1612
01:38:15.659 --> 01:38:20.279
There is one character that they allow this to happen with in Voyager, and that's seven.

1613
01:38:20.340 --> 01:38:27.359
And that continuing storyline and that grudge that she has and how that softens, you know.

1614
01:38:27.899 --> 01:38:33.899
I don't know if it's enough when you've got a cast of 8 to just give one person, you know.

1615
01:38:33.960 --> 01:38:34.920
That's right.

1616
01:38:35.100 --> 01:38:49.140
You, you remember the Borg things on the, on the model, like on the, on the exterior, the Borg modifications on the exterior of the ship and how they're still there at the beginning of the game?

1617
01:38:49.260 --> 01:38:52.319
That was where I got really excited and I was like, ooh.

1618
01:38:52.439 --> 01:38:55.859
Yeah, I was so disappointed when they got rid of them.

1619
01:38:55.920 --> 01:39:01.680
Like, again, you know, like I'm watching it in as close to real time as the video releases allow or whatever.

1620
01:39:01.739 --> 01:39:03.300
I can't even remember how I'm watching it now.

1621
01:39:03.420 --> 01:39:06.060
Um, but I was so disappointed.

1622
01:39:06.060 --> 01:39:08.520
It's exactly the same way I failed.

1623
01:39:08.520 --> 01:39:13.020
After a time to stand in series 6 of DF 9.

1624
01:39:13.079 --> 01:39:16.920
You remember the Demo Gemadar ship that they're on, is damaged and floating through space.

1625
01:39:16.979 --> 01:39:20.760
And then the next episode starts and it's still floating through Dominions.

1626
01:39:20.819 --> 01:39:21.840
I'm like what is going on?

1627
01:39:21.899 --> 01:39:25.979
This is not this place. not being, you know, but obviously they ran with that for 6 episodes.

1628
01:39:26.399 --> 01:39:27.779
Yeah.

1629
01:39:27.840 --> 01:39:32.340
Yeah, like a 3rd of the season, a 4 quarter of the season or something.

1630
01:39:32.399 --> 01:39:36.119
It's pretty amazing But, you know, we have picked at this a lot.

1631
01:39:36.180 --> 01:39:46.439
But I still maintain, this is a good glimpse into what Voyager could have been if they had some of the sort of Battle Star Galactica does.

1632
01:39:46.560 --> 01:39:47.640
Yeah.

1633
01:39:47.699 --> 01:39:48.359
Yeah.

1634
01:39:48.420 --> 01:39:53.760
And it would have been, but it probably would have been more exciting, a bit more suspenseful to watch.

1635
01:39:53.880 --> 01:40:03.060
Yeah, but I think, you know, if their ambition is just to be an entertaining 45 minutes of Star Trek. comes out every week.

1636
01:40:03.119 --> 01:40:05.039
That's fine.

1637
01:40:05.100 --> 01:40:06.840
Well, I don't know that they do it well.

1638
01:40:06.899 --> 01:40:15.840
I think that, well, I think that Strange New World shows you that there's a better version of that available, that a better version of that can exist.

1639
01:40:15.899 --> 01:40:22.439
To be fair, there has only been 10 episodes of Strange New Worlds, and there are 179 episodes of Voyager.

1640
01:40:22.500 --> 01:40:24.300
Yeah, that is true.

1641
01:40:24.359 --> 01:40:27.239
It may it may sink in series 2 for all you know.

1642
01:40:27.300 --> 01:40:29.819
I don't think it will but you never know.

1643
01:40:29.880 --> 01:40:31.680
No, no, no.

1644
01:40:31.920 --> 01:40:33.960
But do you know what I mean?

1645
01:40:34.020 --> 01:40:41.520
Like that way of doing a show that isn't heavily serialised, I think that works very well.

1646
01:40:41.579 --> 01:40:45.659
Do you remember when we go down to the ocean planet in series 5 of Voyager?

1647
01:40:46.199 --> 01:40:49.739
And it's all got, it's got like a massive underworld city.

1648
01:40:49.800 --> 01:40:51.239
It looks incredible.

1649
01:40:51.300 --> 01:40:54.600
It's far more visually exciting than this influence space.

1650
01:40:54.659 --> 01:40:56.340
I actually think that this looks okay.

1651
01:40:57.180 --> 01:41:01.140
I like the I like the bioships blowing up.

1652
01:41:01.199 --> 01:41:02.220
I think they look great.

1653
01:41:02.340 --> 01:41:05.699
Jerry Roy just got a shot of Jerry with a thing coming out of her eye.

1654
01:41:05.760 --> 01:41:11.520
I quite resist, putting her hands on her hip, so she's standing on the bridge in her full Borg regalia.

1655
01:41:12.239 --> 01:41:16.319
She's like, I'm a powerful Borg bitch, all right?

1656
01:41:16.979 --> 01:41:18.960
So great.

1657
01:41:19.020 --> 01:41:20.340
I don't think so.

1658
01:41:20.399 --> 01:41:26.279
I noticed the simmering tension between Kate Mulgar and Jerry Ryan, yeah.

1659
01:41:26.340 --> 01:41:27.899
The boy is coming.

1660
01:41:28.739 --> 01:41:30.359
No, no.

1661
01:41:30.420 --> 01:41:31.800
I think it's a strength.

1662
01:41:31.859 --> 01:41:34.380
I absolutely think it's a strength.

1663
01:41:34.439 --> 01:41:48.180
But one of the things that I like about the fact that 7 has come back after so many, you know, after decades and is playing the character again, that Jerry's come back and is doing that, is she had a miserable time.

1664
01:41:48.239 --> 01:41:49.680
Yes, you know.

1665
01:41:49.680 --> 01:41:51.539
And she does say that on the show.

1666
01:41:51.600 --> 01:41:56.100
Yeah, that this was not fun and that Kate wasn't very nice to her and stuff like that.

1667
01:41:56.159 --> 01:42:04.859
And now it's, you know, she's had a great experience and has been in a very good version of Star Trek.

1668
01:42:04.920 --> 01:42:07.439
You know, you know, I'm really happy about that.

1669
01:42:07.500 --> 01:42:09.180
Well, I just think as well...

1670
01:42:09.180 --> 01:42:17.220
They've come back and they've given her that sort of Kursman trick naturalistic dialogue that everybody has.

1671
01:42:17.279 --> 01:42:19.800
Nobody talks like 90s trek anymore.

1672
01:42:19.859 --> 01:42:21.420
And thank God.

1673
01:42:21.600 --> 01:42:27.600
But she's still also, she also still gets, you know, colloquialisms and things wrong and stuff.

1674
01:42:27.659 --> 01:42:28.560
She does.

1675
01:42:28.619 --> 01:42:33.239
I think the real punch the air moment was when she turned around to, um, was it short?

1676
01:42:33.300 --> 01:42:36.060
When she turned around, she won't, no, my name is 7 of nine.

1677
01:42:36.119 --> 01:42:38.220
That was a correct moment.

1678
01:42:38.279 --> 01:42:39.479
Really good.

1679
01:42:39.600 --> 01:42:41.640
You know what, Nathan?

1680
01:42:41.760 --> 01:42:48.899
This might be a backhanded compliment to Picard series 3, but I actually think 7 might have been the best thing in that season.

1681
01:42:48.960 --> 01:42:51.420
She is really good in it.

1682
01:42:51.479 --> 01:42:52.199
She is great.

1683
01:42:52.260 --> 01:42:53.760
But so is count...

1684
01:42:53.819 --> 01:42:57.600
And I'm super ple like, you know, in stark contrast to where she started off.

1685
01:42:57.659 --> 01:42:58.739
Look at where she ends.

1686
01:42:58.800 --> 01:43:01.140
She's helming the flagship of the Federation.

1687
01:43:01.199 --> 01:43:02.819
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1688
01:43:02.880 --> 01:43:04.800
So it's so exciting, isn't it?

1689
01:43:04.859 --> 01:43:06.479
It's super.

1690
01:43:06.539 --> 01:43:15.960
And what is lovely is that you can watch these 4 seasons and see how she got there, you know, like technically she's she's had her own 7 year run now.

1691
01:43:16.020 --> 01:43:17.520
Yeah, exactly.

1692
01:43:17.579 --> 01:43:18.659
What about this?

1693
01:43:18.720 --> 01:43:23.159
What about Bridge Chakotay Scorpion?

1694
01:43:23.220 --> 01:43:24.060
Oh, I like that.

1695
01:43:24.300 --> 01:43:25.920
I do too.

1696
01:43:25.979 --> 01:43:31.319
And it's a little bit like the trick that they pull in the Sesca episode.

1697
01:43:31.380 --> 01:43:32.159
What was that one?

1698
01:43:32.220 --> 01:43:39.180
The one that we did, um, uh, the changing relationship, state of flux.

1699
01:43:39.239 --> 01:43:45.119
You know, where they already had this planned in the background, but we didn't get to see that.

1700
01:43:45.180 --> 01:44:01.319
I hate to bring this up, but one of the defining moments of Babylon 5, though, is where in a moment where it all looks lost and the commander goes, you know, so-and-so to so-and-so, and it says a word like that, and then we cut to a load of telepaths, all in a circle.

1701
01:44:01.380 --> 01:44:06.359
It's exactly the same thing. they are definitely looking at Babylon 5, but it's still a cool moment.

1702
01:44:06.420 --> 01:44:09.119
But I mean, this, but this is a thing they've done before.

1703
01:44:09.180 --> 01:44:16.020
And also, it shows us that in the background that Janeway and Shakota have been working together.

1704
01:44:16.079 --> 01:44:17.039
Do you know what I mean?

1705
01:44:17.100 --> 01:44:18.359
They've thought up this plan.

1706
01:44:18.359 --> 01:44:20.159
Oh, this is it?

1707
01:44:20.220 --> 01:44:24.420
He's volunteered to go along with it. disconnected from the hive.

1708
01:44:24.479 --> 01:44:26.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yep, yep.

1709
01:44:27.960 --> 01:44:31.140
Yeah, that's a great moment too.

1710
01:44:31.199 --> 01:44:37.020
And having heard Janeway coming in the background and she's got her slightly dishevelled post-battle hair happening.

1711
01:44:37.079 --> 01:44:38.460
Which always looks great.

1712
01:44:38.520 --> 01:44:39.600
Wait for the year of hell.

1713
01:44:39.659 --> 01:44:42.840
You know we're in the shit then when her hair's all over the place.

1714
01:44:43.439 --> 01:44:46.680
This is actually my favourite Janeway hair.

1715
01:44:46.739 --> 01:44:47.399
This one.

1716
01:44:47.460 --> 01:44:50.100
Oh, I like it when it's down and short.

1717
01:44:50.340 --> 01:44:54.720
No, she just looks too much like any American woman on TV.

1718
01:44:54.779 --> 01:44:55.500
That's the problem.

1719
01:44:55.619 --> 01:45:02.039
I like it when it's longer and tied up at the back. or yeah, that's better and that's better than the season one here.

1720
01:45:02.100 --> 01:45:06.960
Oh, look, and now we're back in in. oh I love this.

1721
01:45:07.020 --> 01:45:13.560
In fact, I think the shame is where they explain what's going on in dialogue.

1722
01:45:13.619 --> 01:45:20.819
I think the idea that she's sitting in Da Vinci's study, writing out her captain's log by hand.

1723
01:45:20.880 --> 01:45:26.520
And because she's in a computer simulation, that works just as well as dictating it does.

1724
01:45:26.579 --> 01:45:40.680
And because she's had days of Borg and shit, she just wants to do an analogue, you know, like captain's log, but then she has to explain it to us because we're Star Trek fans and we can't do subtext.

1725
01:45:40.739 --> 01:45:42.239
It feels more human somehow.

1726
01:45:42.359 --> 01:45:45.899
You've even got your hand on your face like she does.

1727
01:45:45.960 --> 01:45:59.939
But I think that's a shame, that is a problem with Star Trek, because I was there admiring how great that scene was only to then run into Janeway, explaining the scene to Chacosa, like we were all.

1728
01:46:00.359 --> 01:46:03.180
I think this is pre- we trust the audience to keep up.

1729
01:46:03.239 --> 01:46:04.619
Yeah, 0 yeah.

1730
01:46:04.680 --> 01:46:06.720
I think that's a big problem with 90s Streak as well.

1731
01:46:06.779 --> 01:46:07.859
It doesn't do some text.

1732
01:46:07.920 --> 01:46:08.880
It doesn't do nuance.

1733
01:46:08.880 --> 01:46:09.899
It doesn't matter.

1734
01:46:09.899 --> 01:46:11.159
That's the worst culprit for that.

1735
01:46:11.220 --> 01:46:14.100
They've got loads of plot they've got to remind people of in every episode.

1736
01:46:14.159 --> 01:46:17.340
Not a time we destroyed that shipyard.

1737
01:46:17.939 --> 01:46:20.399
Yeah, it is a bit of a shame.

1738
01:46:20.460 --> 01:46:21.479
It is a bit of shame.

1739
01:46:21.539 --> 01:46:35.520
In retrospect, I guess the fact that the doctor has a handy Borg hand lying around in part one without us having a lengthy explanation about how it got there is a bit of a mercy.

1740
01:46:35.579 --> 01:46:38.039
You should be thanking our lucky start.

1741
01:46:38.340 --> 01:46:40.859
I mean, I'll tell you what, we go.

1742
01:46:40.920 --> 01:46:42.539
You and I, we...

1743
01:46:42.539 --> 01:46:43.140
Fuck off.

1744
01:46:43.199 --> 01:46:46.560
Disobeying your orders was one of the most difficult things I ever had to do.

1745
01:46:46.619 --> 01:46:50.640
No, the point is that you didn't have to do it, Chakotay, you big prick.

1746
01:46:50.699 --> 01:46:51.720
I didn't do it.

1747
01:46:51.720 --> 01:46:53.340
Without what she said.

1748
01:46:53.399 --> 01:46:54.300
You were like, what?

1749
01:46:54.420 --> 01:46:55.140
Yeah, that's right.

1750
01:46:55.199 --> 01:46:56.579
Because I'm conscious now.

1751
01:46:56.640 --> 01:46:58.319
You just sort of eased straight into it.

1752
01:46:58.380 --> 01:46:59.699
I'm taking control.

1753
01:47:00.060 --> 01:47:06.180
Yeah, no, he walks out of Sick Bay rubbing his hands waiting to countermand something.

1754
01:47:06.239 --> 01:47:07.140
It's terrible.

1755
01:47:07.199 --> 01:47:09.060
This is a great ending on seven.

1756
01:47:09.180 --> 01:47:10.020
Yeah.

1757
01:47:10.079 --> 01:47:16.260
Actually, no, it's very unfortunately, you know, because you've got such big boobs, the close-up on her here.

1758
01:47:16.319 --> 01:47:17.220
We're not looking at her face.

1759
01:47:17.460 --> 01:47:23.100
But I really, really like that shot because that's just how it ends.

1760
01:47:23.159 --> 01:47:24.899
It just ends with that shot on her.

1761
01:47:24.960 --> 01:47:29.640
So it's just ending inviting us to say what's going to happen next.

1762
01:47:29.699 --> 01:47:32.640
And I think even though we just closes on that question.

1763
01:47:32.819 --> 01:47:35.699
I think that's a really bold move.

1764
01:47:35.760 --> 01:47:38.340
They could have brought in any kind of a regular.

1765
01:47:38.399 --> 01:47:44.279
You know, we popped off to this planet and it's the Beaumar of the week or something, you know, that's going to hang around.

1766
01:47:44.340 --> 01:47:58.140
But it's, it's something that Star Trek has done before and that's making Wharf a regular on the bridge in series one of Star Trek the Next Generation when he's a Klingon.

1767
01:47:58.199 --> 01:48:02.640
And then there's a Ferengi on the bridge in all good things.

1768
01:48:03.239 --> 01:48:04.739
You know.

1769
01:48:04.859 --> 01:48:11.760
So we bring people who were our enemies aboard, like we make connections.

1770
01:48:11.819 --> 01:48:15.600
And so doing it with the Borg is absolutely a thing that had to happen.

1771
01:48:15.659 --> 01:48:17.520
And I think they do it well.

1772
01:48:17.579 --> 01:48:19.979
It's a premise with a character.

1773
01:48:20.039 --> 01:48:23.220
But it's just, it's inbuilt with interesting things.

1774
01:48:23.279 --> 01:48:25.739
It's very unvoyage-like.

1775
01:48:26.399 --> 01:48:28.260
Yeah, yeah.

1776
01:48:28.319 --> 01:48:29.579
And they really exploit it.

1777
01:48:29.640 --> 01:48:30.840
They properly exploit it.

1778
01:48:30.899 --> 01:48:34.439
Like they know that they're onto something really good.

1779
01:48:34.500 --> 01:48:40.800
They spend a lot of time telling stories about her and it gives the show a shot in the arm.

1780
01:48:40.859 --> 01:48:44.699
I think it does for series 4 and series five.

1781
01:48:44.760 --> 01:48:46.500
I think comes 6 and 7.

1782
01:48:46.619 --> 01:48:50.520
The fatigue starts to set in because they're doing...

1783
01:48:50.520 --> 01:48:51.600
What emotional...

1784
01:48:51.600 --> 01:48:53.159
What we do with 7 this week, you know?

1785
01:48:53.220 --> 01:48:58.800
It's like people complain about with Ezrin, so in 7 of DS9, they're in one year, so they gave them a lot to do.

1786
01:48:58.859 --> 01:49:00.359
But, yeah.

1787
01:49:00.420 --> 01:49:02.520
Certainly for more than five.

1788
01:49:02.520 --> 01:49:08.579
Well, look, can I, um, can I finish this episode with a quote from Kate Kate Mulgrew herself?

1789
01:49:08.640 --> 01:49:10.020
Yeah.

1790
01:49:10.020 --> 01:49:11.399
Our queen.

1791
01:49:11.460 --> 01:49:13.500
Oh, what's about the same time?

1792
01:49:13.560 --> 01:49:15.779
Our queen of Star Trek Voyager.

1793
01:49:15.899 --> 01:49:21.779
So she says, Scorpion part 2 is probably my favourite episode of all time.

1794
01:49:21.840 --> 01:49:26.159
It's a beautiful episode on almost every conceivable level.

1795
01:49:26.220 --> 01:49:30.539
Everybody had something extremely important to do and the conflicts were rare.

1796
01:49:30.779 --> 01:49:33.600
Rare and intense.

1797
01:49:33.659 --> 01:49:43.920
The cruise decisions were divided and epic, and the result is, of course, that Janeway is the 1st captain in history at Starfleet to actually believe that she can make a connection with the Borg.

1798
01:49:43.920 --> 01:49:45.659
And she has.

1799
01:49:45.720 --> 01:49:46.859
I've got this girl.

1800
01:49:46.920 --> 01:49:49.020
Oh, that sounds a bit biting, doesn't it?

1801
01:49:49.140 --> 01:49:51.300
I've got this girl on my ship now.

1802
01:49:51.359 --> 01:49:54.300
So Scorpion part 2 is terrific.

1803
01:49:54.420 --> 01:49:56.760
Well, I don't think it's quite that good.

1804
01:49:56.819 --> 01:50:08.699
But I think, you know, like, she's right that this is a huge, a huge development, a brilliant one that does improve the show immensely, I think.

1805
01:50:08.760 --> 01:50:11.819
What's intriguing is, of course, her feelings change.

1806
01:50:11.880 --> 01:50:19.260
That's the series goes on and she realises that this fabulous actress. has come in and practically usurped the show.

1807
01:50:19.500 --> 01:50:21.659
Yeah, yeah.

1808
01:50:21.720 --> 01:50:22.500
Yeah.

1809
01:50:22.560 --> 01:50:41.880
I think, like I, you know, you don't know what that workplace was like or what things felt like it does seem very ungenerous of her, but I do think the fact that both Kate and Jerry are back playing their characters again in this new iteration of Star Trek.

1810
01:50:41.939 --> 01:50:43.079
Do you know what I mean?

1811
01:50:43.140 --> 01:50:44.039
Like that makes me happy.

1812
01:50:44.100 --> 01:50:45.720
It doesn't surprise me at all.

1813
01:50:45.840 --> 01:50:52.800
Alex Kursman looked at Voyager and said, what can we cherry pick from this show, Janeway and 7?

1814
01:50:52.859 --> 01:50:54.300
They are the best things in this show.

1815
01:50:54.359 --> 01:50:57.420
Let's exploit them in our new, our new iteration of Trek.

1816
01:50:57.539 --> 01:51:02.159
Although we do have some of the medium Robert as well.

1817
01:51:02.279 --> 01:51:04.739
And Tim Ross, the prodigy.

1818
01:51:04.800 --> 01:51:06.840
Oh, we've had Tim Ross?

1819
01:51:06.899 --> 01:51:07.260
Yes of course.

1820
01:51:07.260 --> 01:51:08.279
It was wonderful, wasn't it?

1821
01:51:08.279 --> 01:51:11.460
Methinks Alex Kurtzman prefers Voyages to Deep Space and the One, you know.

1822
01:51:11.520 --> 01:51:13.979
Well, maybe, maybe.

1823
01:51:14.039 --> 01:51:15.600
It'd be interesting to know.

1824
01:51:15.659 --> 01:51:19.920
It'd be nice to see more than just Kira and Quark back.

1825
01:51:19.979 --> 01:51:39.420
What I will say is this episode, I'm watching on Netflix, so immediately the gift started, and that episode starts with, as you say, Voyager with the Borg alterations on the ship, and then a very slow plan around that cargo bay, and all the Borg equipment, and then it finally lands on 7 of 9.

1826
01:51:39.659 --> 01:51:42.300
And it does feel like a mission statement.

1827
01:51:42.359 --> 01:51:42.960
It's not.

1828
01:51:43.560 --> 01:51:44.819
And it does feel like it.

1829
01:51:44.880 --> 01:51:45.600
Yeah.

1830
01:51:45.659 --> 01:51:52.380
Well, I guess it's a way of retelling it's better than a kind of previously on Star Trek Voyager.

1831
01:51:52.439 --> 01:51:53.760
It's just here's where we are.

1832
01:51:53.819 --> 01:51:58.560
This is what we've done to the show in the last episode and I think that's super interesting.

1833
01:51:58.619 --> 01:52:04.199
As a sort of two-part episode in its own right, there's definitely flaws here.

1834
01:52:04.260 --> 01:52:08.460
I think it's really exciting and it's it's, you know, a good watch.

1835
01:52:08.640 --> 01:52:12.180
As a hinge in Voyager's Run.

1836
01:52:12.420 --> 01:52:15.960
And in a slight change of direction with the regulars.

1837
01:52:16.020 --> 01:52:20.220
Maybe, maybe the best moment in the series.

1838
01:52:26.279 --> 01:52:32.640
So it's the end of our episode and it's time for us to choose what to watch for next time.

1839
01:52:32.699 --> 01:52:44.579
I was the one who rolled Scorpion part 2 last week and so it's Joe's turn on untitled Star Trek project.com slash randomiser.

1840
01:52:44.640 --> 01:52:47.939
Tell us what series we're choosing from.

1841
01:52:48.000 --> 01:52:49.199
I know.

1842
01:52:53.279 --> 01:52:56.760
It's Star Trek, Strange New World.

1843
01:52:56.819 --> 01:52:58.260
No, it's...

1844
01:52:58.260 --> 01:53:01.680
Oh, that would be...

1845
01:53:01.739 --> 01:53:03.840
It does end with that one, though.

1846
01:53:03.899 --> 01:53:05.159
It does end with that.

1847
01:53:05.279 --> 01:53:09.479
It takes that original series music and fucking ace, is it?

1848
01:53:09.539 --> 01:53:10.260
Yeah, yeah.

1849
01:53:10.260 --> 01:53:16.739
No, it's Star Trek, the original series, and I have chosen that because, one, we always have a blast when we talk about it.

1850
01:53:16.859 --> 01:53:18.960
I mean, Shatler's in there, you know?

1851
01:53:19.020 --> 01:53:22.020
But two, we haven't done it for a while.

1852
01:53:22.079 --> 01:53:25.020
It feels like quite a while since we've been back there.

1853
01:53:25.079 --> 01:53:26.460
Yeah.

1854
01:53:26.520 --> 01:53:27.720
Yep, all right.

1855
01:53:27.779 --> 01:53:28.380
That'd be great.

1856
01:53:28.439 --> 01:53:30.720
Let's do that Hey, so I'm going to press it.

1857
01:53:30.779 --> 01:53:31.619
Okay, press the button.

1858
01:53:31.680 --> 01:53:33.779
Oh Jesus Christ.

1859
01:53:33.840 --> 01:53:36.119
I'll set you off mic.

1860
01:53:36.180 --> 01:53:36.899
I wanted a dud.

1861
01:53:37.319 --> 01:53:38.939
Oh, yeah.

1862
01:53:39.000 --> 01:53:39.960
What have we got?

1863
01:53:40.020 --> 01:53:47.039
Your random Star Trek original series episode is season three, episode 20, The Way to Eden.

1864
01:53:47.039 --> 01:53:52.260
Is that the one with the hippies?

1865
01:53:52.920 --> 01:53:54.359
Yeah.

1866
01:53:54.420 --> 01:53:56.039
Yeah, isn't it?

1867
01:53:56.100 --> 01:53:57.479
Dr. Severn or something?

1868
01:53:57.539 --> 01:53:59.220
Like it's just.

1869
01:53:59.279 --> 01:54:01.079
All right, I'll press it again.

1870
01:54:01.140 --> 01:54:02.819
Oh, trouble boy triples.

1871
01:54:02.880 --> 01:54:03.779
We've already done that one.

1872
01:54:03.899 --> 01:54:04.979
Okay, let's do that.

1873
01:54:05.039 --> 01:54:07.020
I'd happily watch that again, you know.

1874
01:54:07.079 --> 01:54:09.300
Yeah, we not doing it again.

1875
01:54:09.359 --> 01:54:12.779
Okay, episode, sorry, season two, episode 14.

1876
01:54:13.020 --> 01:54:14.340
Wolf in the fold.

1877
01:54:15.060 --> 01:54:17.039
I don't know what that is.

1878
01:54:17.159 --> 01:54:19.560
I have literally no idea what that is.

1879
01:54:19.619 --> 01:54:20.520
Isn't that terrible?

1880
01:54:20.579 --> 01:54:22.020
It could be good.

1881
01:54:22.319 --> 01:54:28.439
It's not the wolf inside, which is an episode of Discovery about how Ash is secretly the Klingon vogue.

1882
01:54:28.560 --> 01:54:30.359
Are you going to bring this up and have a look?

1883
01:54:30.359 --> 01:54:31.800
And then edit it.

1884
01:54:31.800 --> 01:54:32.760
So we look really clever.

1885
01:54:32.819 --> 01:54:33.899
Okay, let's do that.

1886
01:54:33.960 --> 01:54:34.319
Yep.

1887
01:54:34.380 --> 01:54:39.000
I just looked at the Wikipedia summary and I am none the wiser.

1888
01:54:39.060 --> 01:54:42.060
I may just possibly have never seen this one.

1889
01:54:42.119 --> 01:54:49.439
So I don't know what its reception is and I didn't want to read too much of it in case I kind of spoiled myself.

1890
01:54:49.500 --> 01:54:52.859
So I think we just do it.

1891
01:54:52.920 --> 01:54:53.399
What do you think?

1892
01:54:53.460 --> 01:54:54.239
Could be fun.

1893
01:54:54.300 --> 01:54:55.260
Could be a disaster.

1894
01:54:55.319 --> 01:54:57.539
Oh, I have no idea either.

1895
01:54:57.600 --> 01:54:59.399
So we are going in completely blind.

1896
01:54:59.460 --> 01:55:01.079
Okay, let's just do that.

1897
01:55:01.140 --> 01:55:02.579
Is there a synopsis?

1898
01:55:02.640 --> 01:55:03.899
Is there any clue what this is about?

1899
01:55:03.960 --> 01:55:11.880
There's something about a sort of weird incorporeal entity that's super evil and inspires murderers and stuff.

1900
01:55:12.000 --> 01:55:13.319
I'm not sure.

1901
01:55:13.380 --> 01:55:14.640
So I don't know.

1902
01:55:14.699 --> 01:55:15.899
I don't know.

1903
01:55:15.960 --> 01:55:23.399
And I don't want to read anymore because if it is something that I haven't seen, then I want to go in blind.

1904
01:55:23.399 --> 01:55:25.079
I mean, we've done...

1905
01:55:25.079 --> 01:55:27.420
We've wrote this randomiser plenty of times.

1906
01:55:27.539 --> 01:55:31.260
There's been a few times where you haven't known the episode and I haven't known the episode.

1907
01:55:31.319 --> 01:55:35.340
I don't think there's ever been a time where both of us are completely baffled.

1908
01:55:35.460 --> 01:55:36.659
Yeah.

1909
01:55:36.720 --> 01:55:46.619
Well, like I said, I think I've seen most of original Star Trek and I've seen major ones and there are ones that I know have been kind of on in the background.

1910
01:55:46.680 --> 01:55:54.720
But you know, for instance, when we did Spectre of the Gun, I had no idea how good it was, even though I was certain that I had seen it at some point.

1911
01:55:54.779 --> 01:55:57.479
But this doesn't ring a bell at all.

1912
01:55:57.539 --> 01:55:59.100
So I think that we just do it.

1913
01:55:59.159 --> 01:56:04.560
This is a terra incognita. think if it was an absolute classic, we would know about it, wouldn't we?

1914
01:56:04.619 --> 01:56:06.000
And if it was a dub.

1915
01:56:06.060 --> 01:56:09.359
So I've got a feeling this is going to be sort of mid-range original series.

1916
01:56:09.420 --> 01:56:09.960
It was a road one.

1917
01:56:10.020 --> 01:56:10.859
Well, we'll see.

1918
01:56:10.920 --> 01:56:11.460
Let's see.

1919
01:56:11.520 --> 01:56:12.300
Let's find out.

1920
01:56:12.359 --> 01:56:13.020
Okay.

1921
01:56:13.079 --> 01:56:13.979
Exciting.

1922
01:56:22.619 --> 01:56:27.840
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley.

1923
01:56:27.899 --> 01:56:34.079
We're online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com where you can find links to our Twitter, Mastodon, Facebook, and YouTube channel.

1924
01:56:34.140 --> 01:56:39.659
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Sisrin, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lahn.

1925
01:56:39.720 --> 01:56:44.819
This episode was recorded on the 2nd of May 2023 and released on the 12th of May.

1926
01:56:44.880 --> 01:56:49.500
We'll see you next time for Star Trek the original series, Wolf in the Fold.

1927
01:57:08.460 --> 01:57:11.520
Oh, I've got no idea, either.

1928
01:57:11.579 --> 01:57:12.659
I hope it's dismal.

1929
01:57:14.520 --> 01:57:19.800
It does look like there might be lots of violence against women.

1930
01:57:19.920 --> 01:57:21.779
Lieutenant Kyle.

1931
01:57:22.739 --> 01:57:25.979
Oh, Lieutenant Kyle.

1932
01:57:26.039 --> 01:57:33.420
So, you know, there's Sexy Lieutenant Kyle, the operator, the transporter operator in Stranger World.

1933
01:57:34.199 --> 01:57:36.720
A little sort of Asian Twink.

1934
01:57:36.779 --> 01:57:45.960
Well, there is a transporter operator called Lieutenant Kyle, but in Star Trek, he's an old white guy.

1935
01:57:48.300 --> 01:57:55.979
I'm just gonna have a quick I'm not going to look at the detail, but I'm just have a quick look on jammers, just to see what he wrote.

1936
01:57:56.039 --> 01:57:56.880
Oh, what does he give it?

1937
01:58:00.420 --> 01:58:02.100
Where is it?

1938
01:58:02.159 --> 01:58:03.000
Wolf in the Fold.

1939
01:58:03.060 --> 01:58:03.899
Three stars.

1940
01:58:04.619 --> 01:58:09.779
Oh, so immediately before trials and trip, uh, Travel with Tribles.

1941
01:58:09.840 --> 01:58:12.239
At four, 3 out of four.

1942
01:58:12.779 --> 01:58:14.220
Okay.

1943
01:58:14.279 --> 01:58:15.060
Oh, well.

1944
01:58:15.119 --> 01:58:18.840
Although the plot is a little bit on the fantastic side, well, we like that.

1945
01:58:18.899 --> 01:58:20.760
Uh, blah, blah, blah.

1946
01:58:20.819 --> 01:58:21.600
This is never explained.

1947
01:58:21.659 --> 01:58:23.220
The story pulls itself together nicely.

1948
01:58:23.279 --> 01:58:25.800
Vital clues in the database.

1949
01:58:25.859 --> 01:58:30.359
Yeah, it sounds sort of trad, trad, trad, TOS.

1950
01:58:30.960 --> 01:58:36.180
Solid, a solid, interesting murder investigation with a few neat twists.

1951
01:58:36.239 --> 01:58:36.720
Okay.

1952
01:58:36.720 --> 01:58:37.260
Okay.

1953
01:58:38.159 --> 01:58:40.739
So it'll be like darkling.

1954
01:58:40.979 --> 01:58:43.739
Oh, no, I have heard of this one.

1955
01:58:43.800 --> 01:58:45.539
This is the one where Scotty is accused of murder.

1956
01:58:46.260 --> 01:58:47.640
Yeah.

1957
01:58:47.699 --> 01:58:49.500
I've heard of it.

1958
01:58:49.560 --> 01:58:50.640
Yeah, I've never seen it.

1959
01:58:50.699 --> 01:58:52.859
Oh, well, I've got no idea.

1960
01:58:52.920 --> 01:58:53.640
I'm intrigued.

1961
01:58:54.180 --> 01:58:57.239
I bet there'll be images that I recognise.

1962
01:58:57.300 --> 01:58:57.960
Do you know what I mean?

1963
01:58:58.020 --> 01:59:05.220
I'm sure there'll be moments that I, or, you know, would sort of say, oh, they make fun of this scene in that episode of Lower Decks, and I always wondered what was going on.

1964
01:59:05.279 --> 01:59:06.840
I generally, what's his name?

1965
01:59:06.899 --> 01:59:07.319
Duhan.

1966
01:59:07.380 --> 01:59:07.859
James Dew.

1967
01:59:07.920 --> 01:59:10.439
I generally find when they write it for comedies, great.

1968
01:59:10.500 --> 01:59:12.899
And when they're writing for drama, it's less good.

1969
01:59:12.960 --> 01:59:13.619
It's terrible.

1970
01:59:13.680 --> 01:59:14.760
Yes, it's not very good.

1971
01:59:14.880 --> 01:59:18.359
So we might see some seriously terrible action in this.

1972
01:59:18.539 --> 01:59:19.979
Yeah.

1973
01:59:20.640 --> 01:59:23.520
I know this ship like the back of my hand.

1974
01:59:24.239 --> 01:59:26.100
Yeah, that's funny.

1975
01:59:27.539 --> 01:59:31.319
Do you remember there was that there was like a...

1976
01:59:33.239 --> 01:59:48.659
It was like a lot of the Star Trek videos and stuff that were released in the 90s had had like intercutting between original Trek, the films, Star Trek, Voyager and stuff like that.

1977
01:59:48.720 --> 01:59:52.439
And I remember that scene of him saying, it's from Star Trek V.

1978
01:59:52.500 --> 01:59:54.840
I remember that as well, in the trailer.

1979
01:59:54.899 --> 01:59:55.500
Yeah, yeah.

1980
01:59:55.560 --> 01:59:56.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1981
01:59:56.520 --> 01:59:58.439
And Cisco goes over and over again.

1982
01:59:58.500 --> 02:00:01.319
Don't know what you're missing. in one of them.

1983
02:00:01.380 --> 02:00:01.979
I remember that.

1984
02:00:02.159 --> 02:00:03.899
That's right.

1985
02:00:04.020 --> 02:00:07.079
That's awesome I bet someone has that somewhere up on you.

1986
02:00:07.140 --> 02:00:08.579
Fine crew, Mr. Chevac.

1987
02:00:08.640 --> 02:00:09.779
I've got to get them home.

1988
02:00:10.079 --> 02:00:12.180
And then that bit as well.

1989
02:00:12.359 --> 02:00:14.100
Awesome.

1990
02:00:14.100 --> 02:00:16.380
One of the things you remember.

1991
02:00:16.619 --> 02:00:23.100
Not vital things, it could be of use to your life, but the trailer for Star Trek in the 90s.

1992
02:00:23.159 --> 02:00:25.500
From the 90s, like literally.

1993
02:00:25.800 --> 02:00:27.180
Crazy.

1994
02:00:27.239 --> 02:00:27.600
Wow.

1995
02:00:27.720 --> 02:00:29.460
Ai, ai, ai.

1996
02:00:29.460 --> 02:00:29.819
All right.

1997
02:00:29.939 --> 02:00:31.680
Well that was fun.

1998
02:00:31.979 --> 02:00:36.239
Yeah, I think I think we kept that rolling for 2 episodes.