Hey, Joe. Hello there.
Hey, so we are back and we are back straight in tonight's track.
It's the 1st season of Deep Space Nine. and it's the 15th episode
probably, and we are looking at progress, which is or has always
been a bit of a favourite of mine, I think.
It's always been one that I've admired a lot after watching it
this week.
It has catapulted itself into a favourite of mine.
I thought this was really, really good.
So I don't think it's a top tier Star Trek episode, but I think it
is a very enjoyable one and one that's very competently done.
I found that...
So the thing I remember about progress is, of course, the
relationship between Kira and Brian Keith.
Gorgeous.
Yeah, so Brian Keith is huge.
So he was really big on TV in the sort of 1950s and 1960s.
And what I remember is when I was a kid and it was like school
holidays or something and I would switch the telly on to watch
something at 9 in the morning, there would be a show called A
Family Affair, or no, just called Family Affair, and it was like
Brian Keith was the father, and then there was Sebastian Cabot as
Mr. French, who was their butler or something.
And I remember it really well.
I can't remember anything that happened in any episode, but I do
remember his name and I certainly remember his face.
He's got a very definite look.
And so I think I probably recognised him when I 1st saw him in
this and he's a get, I think.
I'm coming to the conclusion that there are 2 types of guest actor
in 90s trek. okay?
You've either got bad ones.
You've got the sort of murder she wrote of the week actor that
comes in and is a bit wooden and a bit robotic.
A bit like that woman in the one with the crystalline entity and I
know you love her.
I actually like that.
She's so fucking wooden.
She cannot display an emotion at all.
And then you've got people like Harris Eulin into it and Brian
Keith in progress who are actors that have acted for 60 plus years
and can, you know, can come in, step into a role and inhabit it as
if they have played that role their entire lives, which is exactly
what he does here.
He was so good in this.
Yeah, I think it's really terrific.
And I think, you know, mentioning the guy in duet.
Like, I think, you know, Kurtwood Smith in Year of Hell.
Mark Harelick in Counterpoint.
You know, Matt Fruer, is it?
In a matter of time.
That was supposed to be Robin Williams, you know, that was written
for Robin Williams, and he was going to do it right at the last
minute and then a movie came up and he couldn't do it. he was
pissed about that.
Yeah, yeah.
And I've always quite liked that version of Star Trek where they
get someone in and they have a major role.
Do you remember when we had Lawrence Pressman in 2nd skin as
Kira's dad.
That's another good example.
Yeah, yeah.
If you sort of go along, there's usually sort of 2 or 3 per season
of each show where they brought in just a brilliant actor. to play
one of these roles.
But then you pair Brian Keefe up with then a visitor.
Yeah.
So a bit of trivia here.
Michael Piller is quoted as saying that basically they lost sight
Akira in the 1st half of season one.
So they had her sort of fiery in emissary.
Then they did pass prologue and then she doesn't get another
episode until this point.
Oh, wow.
And she's just sort of angry, Kira, you know, like a move along
home where she's like, you know, added not sign up for this, you
know, and all this sort of, you know, express rage.
And so they really wanted to write an episode that focussed on her
as an administrator, post-terrorist, and they lean into that here
brilliantly, are they?
Yeah, so the one thing about it, though, is that I think it is
rather diluted by the fact that there is a B plot, and I think the
B plot is fantastic and super agreeable, and it's one of the
things.
Yeah, it's really great.
And they're kids, like Jake is a child.
Like, it's...
You only had to say to it.
When I said to you, what's the B plot for this?
All you had to say to me was self-sealing stem bolts.
And I was like, ah, yes, the no J consortium.
Yes.
And that's adorable, but it is really linear and it doesn't
actually kind of go anywhere.
Like there's no there's no reversals or anything.
It's just fun.
It's hang time. and it's...
I was watching it, going, how the fuck is this land and these
bolts going to sort of sneak into the apron?
And then it never does.
It's just we're hanging out with Jake and Nog for and I said to
you, I love anything in series one, 2, and 3 with Jake and Nog
where we're just hanging out with them on the station and having
an adventure.
Do you know there is one slight thing where they do kind of
dovetail, but no one seems to notice and nothing gets made of it
is that the Bajoran government wants to buy the land.
Yeah, right. to do something, you know, and everyone else is sold
but but they haven't.
And so now they're going to sell at a big price.
And so that's a little bit like what's happening on this moon.
But it never kind of, you know, that's not a thing that they do at
this point in Star Trek.
I also wonder too, I'm not sure entirely about all aspects of the
A plot, and I think there are some production problems as well.
But in spite of that, you've got this incredible performance
you've got an episode that sent us on Kira, which is always a good
idea.
I just think the whole thing is really just thoroughly enjoyable.
It's just a good hour of television.
No, you knew this was coming, so I'm going to say this, but like
you know, I know the sort of Star Trek you like.
I know you love busy, exciting, weird looking, expensive, and this
ain't none of that.
It's none of it.
It's not expensive.
It's the cheapest probably episode of the season.
It's one set and a couple of actors and then the standing sets.
And it ain't a great set either, really.
It's well lit.
But, yeah, he's well, Lou.
Like, we've watched a lot of very busy episodes of Star Trek
recently. and they didn't involve me in the way this involved me
and it is, I think, purely, because I agree with you. sort of the
nuts and bolts of the A plot of like why they have to get them off
this moon.
You know, who cares?
The idea is to trap these 2 people together in this sort of
impossible situation where she has to make a choice of whether to
take him away or let him stay.
And I think the chemistry between the actors, the relationship
that's there.
That was enough for this to really engage me.
So I think sometimes I know I know Star Trek should be big and
weird and strange new worlds and new civilisation, huge action set
pieces and all of that.
It can do all of that.
But it can be just as compelling with 2 people in a room.
I think that's true as well, but as we go, I'm not always entirely
sure what Kira is thinking or why she's doing what she's doing and
I think that's a problem because I think this episode has to be
about.
So she's a terrorist turned administrator, right?
And she's become an authority figure, and this is the thing that
happens to all of us, I think, eventually.
Like if you're a parent, you go from being a child to a few
decades later being a parent and then you hear yourself saying the
thing that your parents said, you know, and I've had the same
experience as a teacher, it's like, 0 my god, my father used to
say that, you know, and it's that sort of thing where you know
very well what it's like to have someone wielding authority over
you.
And now you're in a position where you wield authority over
people.
And I think that's super interesting.
Do you know what I mean?
Because it's really relatable, you know how to feel about it, and
it's very definitely what's going on here.
Yeah.
So you don't have to have been a terrorist to kind of identify
with what just happens to be a Baxter.
But I'm not entirely sure that comparing her to the Cardassians
kind of works, and I'm never entirely certain of what she wants to
do.
And I do think that final scene, though, where she helps him
finish building the kiln and then destroys it.
I think that's really good, but I do think that her motivation is
muddy around some of it.
So I can't always tell where she's coming from.
Well, I think I think she, she hates what she's become, that she
has become that person that will have to make those kind of
decisions and force people away from in the way that, and I think
she's just spending the whole episode resisting that.
And then, in a beautiful scene, I think.
Cisco beams down and tells her, you know, you're on the other
side.
You've got to accept that you are on the other side now.
And it's a really, it's a lovely, very understated but emotional
scene.
Yeah, he underplays it.
Oh, he's really.
Not like having a week off this week.
I couldn't believe it.
Do you remember dramatic persona?
He won't put too much into that one.
No, he's excited about the clock, you know, like...
Um, we should probably go in.
I've got just one more bit of trivia to hit you with before we go
in.
And that is, well, it's a question, really.
What do the Passion of the Christ, Iron Man 2, Doctor Who, the
movie, the greatest Showman, Hocus Pocus, and Progress, have in
common?
Who did the music?
It's John Demney. did the music, but all of that.
So John Devney is one of the most prolific Hollywood musicians out
there.
He has got about 350 films to his name and television.
He scored 2 episodes of DS9, this and the Nagus, and one episode
of TNG, the Pegasus.
Oh wow.
I mean, weirdly though, he's totally gone for the house style.
I was really listening to the music as I was watching it.
It's just wallpaper.
Where I thought he scored really well was in the last scene. where
it's, is it?
and it is understated because all music is.
Star Trek is understated.
But it actually is quite beautiful.
I'm not sure if you'll be able to hear the music as we're going
into this, but weird that this, you know, massive Hollywood
musician just turned up on starting for 3 episodes just for this
week.
I think this was before it hit me, though, you know.
Okay.
Well, probably progress was an important part of that process.
He even did the into the advert stings, I noticed.
Yes, they were as good as they always are.
Let's get it happening.
I'll count us in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
Okay, so we start on the B plot.
And one of the things that struck me about this is how incredibly
stagey it is.
So, you know, um, Quark and this guy, who's this guy?
Who is a semi-recular?
It does turn up.
It's usually the one, you know, that he throws drinks out and
things like that.
Okay.
So, so they're having this conversation loudly and clearly enough
to be over.
And just to show it listening, dogs ears, like right over here
yeah.
Do you know what?
You might think this is stagey.
A bit later where they're playing cards again and Quak and Odo
come in and go, you know, ah, someone...
And then the camera zooms straight through them on so called
Canodo.
I was like, man.
I don't like this anymore, do they?
The 2 scenes that backend this B plot are both so stagely done.
And like the thing about it, though, like the thing about this B
plot is look at how tiny Jake is.
Look at what a little kid he is and just how much fun it is to
just have half of the episode to hang out with them. immediately
just hit me was they just cast this show so well.
Even these extraneous characters, they've clearly put effort and
the chemistry between Sir Lofton and Aaron Eisenberg, it is
palpable, you know.
And like you and I said, all these little B plots eventually lead
us to in the cards, which is sort of like the ultimate J.K. Nog
episode.
Yeah, yeah, this is like a dry run for in the cards, I think.
Um, so here we have Toran.
Minister, this is the only episode.
I think so yeah.
Minister Teran.
So I've saw lots of various myth.
There must be 100s of the bloody people because they pop up every
now and again, you know, just to make sure that the Federation is
running things well.
This is a kind of aborted version of the show, isn't it?
Like, it's like, we're basically going to hang around, um, Bajor
and its moons.
I mean, storyteller was reasonably recent or it's around about
this part of the season.
After...
Yeah, yeah.
And that, again, is, you know, we go to another moon of Bejor and
there's people there.
We're not actually, so that's fair. just going to the various
Bajoran moons.
Yeah, and then they eventually decide actually that's too tedious
and we'll do something else and it becomes a giant geopolitical
thing, which is much more fun.
But this sequence here where this is the 1st sign that Jadzia will
fuck anybody because she's talking about this conversation she's
had with Morn.
And Kira's like, right.
She goes, you know, there's kind of sort of 2 or 3 wiry hairs that
come out of his chin.
I think they make him look kind of cute.
Yeah.
She's a dirty bitch.
I'll tell you.
Kira's really, right?
racist about that.
She's terrible.
She's terrible about everyone.
She goes, what is it?
Bodet with the transparent skull.
She goes, look.
I don't like to have dinner, you know, and see people's brains.
Oh, here we are.
Okay.
So, I think the script wants this set to be much, look at the
painting in the back on the mountains. painted in the background.
Look, the thing that they can do and that they have been able to
do ever since around about the middle of TNG's run is outdoor
lighting that looks like sunlight.
Yeah?
Don't you think they do that quite well?
I do, and I think they do really well with this episode as well
especially when you're inside the house.
Yeah, yeah.
But I think the set needs to be, look, here's the thing, right?
This is a moon of Bajor. 50 people live on it and 47 of them
evacuated.
These 3 haven't evacuated.
That's all that lives on it.
It's habitable.
It's sunny.
There's plants, it's a lovely place, and they're just going to
completely destroy it. in order to like build some fucking wind
mills people.
Like, what are we doing?
Do you know what I mean?
So they want to use its geothermal energy or something.
Are you attempting to suggest to me that if the conservative
government or the government's around the world, found a way of
the moon, not, you know, affecting the tide, that they could
destroy that moon and turn it into a sense of fuel, that they
wouldn't do it?
Because I'm telling you, they would.
No, that's right.
But, I mean, it's kind of stupid, whereas if it was really
precarious, it would work as well because he's choosing to live on
this sort of desolate rock because he feels like he's been, he, you
know, Bajor isn't his home anymore and he's struggled and tried to
make a place there.
But it all looks so edenic that you can't kind of buy that.
I think he just comes off as an asshole, I think.
But not an arsehole enough because Peter Allen Fields, who wrote
this episode.
He wrote this and duet.
I think he took the 1st hand at the visitor and in the Pale
Moonlight as well.
He is one of the best writers of DS9.
He said that in execution, this didn't match what he was writing
in the script.
And not so much, not so much the setting, but Mullabok, who he
says, he said he thought Brian Keith gave a brilliant performance
but he's supposed to be an arshole.
And he plays it with a lot of wolf.
And I'm kind of glad he does because that's what sold me on the
episode.
Yeah, that's what's fun to watch, I think.
And that's why you can't spray.
But he wanted to put Kira in that situation of having to protect a
complete CUNT.
Yeah.
Well, see, the great thing is that they make fun of this in an
episode of Lower Decks that we've done, Cupid's errand arrow, where
the 2 people who live on mixed us too. won't let them destroy the
moon when it's going to crash into mixed to three.
And when Freeman discovers it's only 2 people.
She goes, what, 2 people?
Both of you?
What do you mean?
And they say, oh, yeah, we're rich.
She just says blow the moon.
We don't get 45 minutes of them beaming them down, trying to
convince them.
Do you know what?
I love the fact that every single lighter comes, he's just baiting
her all the time, isn't he?
Yeah, you know, Nathan, halfway pretty, you know.
Girl, like calling her a girl is really funny, but then there's
another really funny thing where he makes her compare herself to
the Kardassians.
Like the comparison between her and the Cardassians, you know
these are just uniforms coming to tear us away from our home.
It doesn't matter if they can't Essians or Bajorans, you know, and
there's something to be said for that, but he makes her make
that.
The way she plays that...
He says, you know, like, oh, you know, how did you, how did you
fight them?
And she goes, well, we hung on like fanatics.
He goes, that's it.
That's it.
He goes, oh, yes, I must remember that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's the bit I made.
It's lovely Oh, I love you know what?
You know when they hang out on that bit of the promenade there
that's sort of intersex.
Yeah.
They even have a bit.
When he goes off to the academy, you know, they have their last
scene there with their legs hanging over the edge.
Yeah.
I don't know if you remember.
There's a scene a couple of episodes later where Jake's doing it
on his own, and Odo comes up to him, like he always used to when
it was Jake and Nog, and he goes, oh, I suppose you want me to
move on?
He goes, no, I never wanted you to move on.
It was Nog.
I was always going off.
So this alien.
So he's a Lasepian.
I think that looks pretty good.
And that is a step up from Star Trek, the Next Generation Aliens.
They're annoying, though, because they often do this.
Put a lot of effort into these one seed aliens. and then you get
like the Beaumar that are in a whole episode.
That's right. right.
There's nowhere foot at all.
So what is it?
They started off with Cardassian Yamak sauce.
Which they still haven't asked if they can have yet.
And they've already traded it for self stealing stem bolts.
Yeah.
One thing that I miss a little bit here, and I think they get it
right in the cards, but they've had years of experience by then
and this is very early, is I don't think Jake should be better
than Nog at this.
And in this episode.
Nog is usually wrong and Jake is the one who gets him to do the
right thing.
And I think it's more fun to have Nog be super Frankie and Frankie
you know, from Burr for just terribly good at this.
You know what the best example of that is.
It's the series 7 episode, Treachery Faith in the Great River, when
Chief O'Brien, he's like, oh, God, we need this part for the
Defiance.
Cisco said, if I don't get it fixed by the time he's back, I'm
dead.
So Nog's like, don't worry, I'll get it for you.
Just give me your authorisation code.
And he gives it to it.
And then he starts trading and he trades Captain Cisco's desk.
That's right.
It's so fun.
It's so funny.
Oh dear.
And what do you think about, um, what do you think about what's
his face and what's her face?
Beltram and Kino?
Well, I really liked was it managed to show the horror of what the
Kardashians did without us in a world.
I really like that where he says they don't say a word.
The Cardassians took care of that.
And that to me says way more than hearing some agonising backstory
of what they've been through, you know?
Yeah, no, I agree.
But they just can't talk for budgetary reasons, can they?
Don't you think?
Isn't that why they can't talk and all just sort of seems like
well, we'll have 2 people here, but we don't want to write a part
for them because then that complicates the story.
And so we just have them not talking and we don't have to pay
them.
You remember when we said in Strange New Worlds, with Pike making
dinner and when Star Trek sort of goes a bit...
I do like it when he goes a bit domestic like this, you know. less
at console, more scrubbing roots, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
And also because this is a world that's super familiar to the
people who are in it.
Like, what, how much do we get a sense of what Bajor is like
during the run of the show?
Maybe not as much as we should because the show loses interest in
Bajor and goes off and does other things.
But here it's, you know, like the roots and the, you know, soup
and all of that sort of thing.
I don't know.
I think all's really interesting is you're right.
It does, they, they, basically, these are the least popular
episodes, the Bajoran ones.
Because people are, they've gone from TNG, which is exploring new
planets every week to just hanging around on a farm, you know, like
and people are like, what's what's happened to Star Trek?
And they do push away from that.
But you still have episodes like Rapture, a session, the B
plotting in the cards.
You remember that's Kai Wynn coming along and negotiating with the
Dominion.
And then in the last season, they're like, well, do you know
what?
This is our last year.
We can do what we want.
And they have that whole plot of Kai Wynn and Dukat on Bejor and
they really lean into it again in that last year of like where
Bajor is.
I know you don't like that so much, but it's fun.
Well, no, because I mean, I think I think it's just locating one
of the power, like, you know, you've got a Cardassian and you've
got a Bajoran and she's Kai Wyn, and you've got Martoc, and you've
got, do you know what I mean?
Like each race is represented by kind of one person.
And so the person who represents Bajor is Kai Winn, and obviously
Louise Fletcher is fantastic and stuff.
But Bajor itself, I think we get sick of after the incredible 3
partner.
Every time we go back, too.
They're always behaving.
I think the Bajorans are a fickle bunch, you know.
So in a session, they're all happy to go back to their de genres
even though it means everybody has to quit their jobs and, you
know, curiosity at BFB.
It's a good episode.
It's a really strong episode because the whole point of that is
Cisco is the emissary.
He doesn't want to do it.
Actually, someone comes in who says he's the emissary and then
he's like, shit, I need to do this because he's going to
completely turn this planet upside down.
They don't completely forget about it, but it's less it's less
important than it is in the 1st 2 years.
Yeah, because they don't quite know what they're doing.
It's just like, we'll put 2 characters in a runabout.
We'll go to a place.
It doesn't matter. whether that place is on another planet or on
region of Beijor, but it kind of turns out it does, I think.
Do you know what?
We have that gorgeous scene in a minute.
You were talking about it on the on the thread where they're
having dinner together and he's making up some god awful, hilarious
backstory.
How he got his hands and knees and dug up the fields, you know, and
tighten with his fingernails and stuff. so he didn't know he was
hungry.
It's really fun, isn't it?
I don't know what it is, but it is great.
It's, I don't know.
Like, it's, you know, like he can't expect to be believed.
It's like a heroic retelling of his story, which is really funny.
There's a lot of sort of humour in it.
I don't know how you can say that without being likeable.
Like the script, if Peter Allen Fells says, um, you know, the
trouble is, Mullabok ended up being too likeable.
You can't have an unlikeable character deliver that because that's
funny and he's being funny.
Like there's another way. as being literal, which is even
funnier.
No, he can't have been.
I wonder if Peter Rader feels like...
TNG.
All these, you know, really terrible backstories.
We keep getting, you know, sort of speeches that these one off
characters.
He's going, oh, I've got to rip this.
I've got to take the piss.
I want to know who this human woman at the bar is looking at
looking at Drake.
She doesn't approve of children.
Oh, look at that shot.
You get an exterior shot of the house with a sort of moon.
I think that might be a light, you know, rather than CGI effect.
There is a later shot of the sunrising over Bajor, and it struck
me as something that the show never really does again.
There's a real warmth to how this is shot, though, this dinner
scene.
I really.
Yeah, but there's a lot of yellow lighting for this planet, isn't
there?
Yeah, this, this is so funny.
It's so ridiculous.
There I was staring starvation in the face again.
Oh, look, the other 2 did a little bit of acting.
They did a little reaction shot.
It's old Mullerpok.
What a twat.
But just so Super was like when it goes to, you know, how about
some of that lovely wine?
Please.
You know, I just feel like there's established relationships
here.
Like this doesn't always work when we come down and meet
characters.
I don't know if you remember that episode.
Oh god, it's in season one of Voyager, where Tom Paris is accused
of murder.
It's all told a sort of flashback.
And you meet a bunch of people a bit like this and they have it in
the scene and it's fucking agonising to watch.
Like Kieran now twice has said, I want to hear who won.
I want to hear how this story ends.
And she's being a cow because obviously she knows how the story
ends because it ends with them right here.
She's making fun of him.
Like, he's telling this preposterous story.
She's pretending to engage with it, even though she knows kind of
what's happening.
Like this, the ploughing the plum straight lines, you know, with
his fingernails. and stuff.
And like, she's really enjoying it.
Look at look at her reaction.
It's really terribly fun.
No, you know, this is the 1st season.
And she is pretty fully formed, isn't she?
in her performance.
Yeah.
I don't, I would never want to underestimate, I think she is like
the MVP of Deep Space 9 and a visitor.
I think she's probably the best actor in it.
But the competition...
Yeah, the bar is high.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's the best cast of the 90s track series with no doubt.
It's kind of like, I think it's a sort of show where, like, if the
episode isn't great, you're still going to get some great acting.
Yeah, yeah.
Except dramatic persona.
It's it's funny.
There's been so little of this cast coming back I mean, you know
oversight, I think.
Yeah, but I, you know, like I think they must all like Deep Space
9.
Like, you know, anyone who loves Star Trek has a higher regard for
Deep Space 9, I think, because it does things that other Star
Trek's never managed to do.
I mean, the fella who show rum series, was it Terry?
Is it Matelas?
Is that how you say?
Metalis?
He said that if that new Star Trek legacy show comes up, there
will be characters from DS9 in it.
That's the pitch.
So I don't think they've forgotten them.
It could have been availability as well.
I mean, they're good actors.
They probably working.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and and we did have Arman and an art in an episode of Flower
Decks. they haven't been completely forgotten.
Exterior looks so much better at night. the lights are down.
Yeah.
I think also this is this sounds stupid.
This sounds really trivial. but so much of 90 Star Trek is people
standing around talking and saying what they're thinking.
You know, there's no subtext or anything like that.
And maybe they don't quite nail it here, but having the kiln and
having physical business that the actors do about the kiln and the
kiln represents some kind of investment in his future here.
And so he's continuing to build the kiln, even though he knows
that he's only got a few days left on the planet or a week.
And then she starts building the kiln as well.
And I think, you know, it's simple.
It's not earth shattering, but it's not, it's a bit unusual, I
think, for Star Trek.
Okay, what really works is what you said, the last scene where she
says she has him the last one and says the last one.
We're going.
Yeah.
Completing the kiln is, is when we're leaving.
And if you're uncertain about that.
Well, then she blows it to shit as well.
Well, and that's another thing too.
Like, because this version of Star Trek, this 90s version of Star
Trek is cheap and because most of the things...
Well, it's probably not cheap.
I mean, the money they poured into the set.
It weren't cheap to start off.
Yeah, yeah.
No, no.
But, but, you know, there's a lot of standing around inexpensively
in standing sense going on.
But actually having her set fire to the thing and having him stand
by and watch her do it is really interesting and that like he
doesn't object.
He knows that she's going to do it.
What I love about that is I think that's really good.
It's open-ended, and we never find out what happens to him after
that.
I wouldn't want to.
No, but it is kind of a problem as if, because part of the
solution, part of the way that Kira convinces herself that this is
the right thing to do and what she tells him is, I will make sure
you know, he says, if I leave here, I'll die.
And she could have said, no, you stupid asshole, you won't, don't
be such a drama queen.
We're going.
Do you know what I mean?
Because that's like that's really the issue here, isn't it?
He'll die if he doesn't have his fucking cave and his roots and
his all of that sort of thing.
Like he's just being a dickhead, right?
Um, And she says, no, you won't die.
I'll make sure of it, but of course we never hear of him again.
And so...
Which is kind of, it's a bit remote.
DS Liner's got a good track record of catching up with characters
later.
Well, I was just thinking actually about 2nd skin, you know, and
where her pretend father comes back in another episode.
Yeah.
Brian Keith actually dies in 1997.
So just 4 years after this.
Wow.
Okay.
And he has, he has lung cancer, but he does die of a gunshot
wound.
So he, he, I think he dies by suicide.
I think I knew that because he's sick.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I mean, he's, you know, he's a big deal.
He might have been hard to get back.
And what do you do?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, what do you do?
He comes back and he's, I don't know, started a chain of.
Well, we're in the restaurants that sell that suit. era of
bringing back everything these days, aren't we?
Sometimes I think, you know what?
That that appearance that you had was good enough.
Leave it alone.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But I think I think that that's part of the problem.
I do think that it's a little bit unclear what's happening and
what's going on in Kira's head.
And I think it needs to be clear for this to work 100% of the
time.
Yeah, like what's this?
This fucking dickhead here, right?
They're always...
We're going to render this entire moon uninhabitable because we
can't wait a year for a better power plant to come online.
Like, why not just issue them all, some fucking batteries and tell
them to wrap up warmth the winter.
But, you know, and it's going to be, oh, we're going to heat 10s
of 1000s of Bajoran homes.
Like, but we're going to destroy.
Like that's what's dumb about it, and it's partly that this set.
Partly the problem is that this set looks so lush.
And if it had been, if it had been, if he'd genuinely been
scraping out, some kind of subsistence.
It doesn't matter if it's lush, but we need a log shot of the
planet, make it a bit like the survivors.
Do you remember where you've got that beautiful garden surrounded
by this horrid desert?
Yeah.
It's like, oh, okay.
So the planet is miserable.
It's just that little area that is looked after quite well.
That's right.
I do like, I do like the, it's not subtle, but I do like, um, the
uniform being used.
So she takes off the universe.
Yeah, I'm staying. and then she puts on the uniform.
Okay, you're leaving.
And he says, doesn't he, what's the gun all about?
You didn't have the gun before.
And she goes, oh, it's protocol. if I'm going to force you out of
your home.
Come on there.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, see, I like that.
I'm doing what has to be done.
I am too.
Um, There's a great series going.
I also, so God.
No, no, no.
I'm not sure I buy the, like what happens at the end as like what
happens to lead into the, uh, the ad break here. where, what, he
gets shot by one of them.
Oh, it's very strange. isn't it?
It's yeah, yeah.
But like, why are they do they have phases set to kill anyway?
Do you know what I mean?
Like they're going up there to move an old man.
They have to take their guns because we're American scriptwriters
and we can't imagine, you know, this being done by people who
aren't wielding fucking guns.
Like, why are they have guns at all?
There's no reason for it.
And then why do they have them set to kill?
you know it's ridiculous.
I think the weird thing about this episode is you're right, and
you're sort of niggling at the nuts and bolts of the story, but
the story is manipulating the characters into the position of just
being stuck there together.
And that's what I love.
So I'm kind of like, okay, yeah, I get it.
It doesn't really work.
But the episode works because they're so great.
Well, I think it's the same with duet, isn't it?
Where, like, what's not actually happening?
There's a bit more sense in there.
And the mystery is stupid.
Like the resolution is, you know, like...
Oh, we can't find a picture of this war criminal.
No, it was in charge of a lady.
Like all of that.
Yeah, none of that quite works.
Are you telling me, God, you can't.
They not have a snapshot every day of themselves.
Yeah, with our wips.
Right.
Yeah, so it doesn't quite work.
Yeah, this, like why is he shooting an old man?
Like, that's just crazy.
What's he doing?
Like, what?
But then this lease to all the scenes where she's looking after
him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But like...
Oh, I love...
You don't love Dr. Share coming down.
She's just so dismissive of him, isn't she?
She don't give him a 2nd.
Well, he's, he's off you arrogant, you know, like, he's, also only
for contractual reasons. isn't he?
Oh, they do this a couple of times, you know, where they're sort
of pretends substate.
Do you remember the bit whereas redax is talking to Cisco and
she's going, I'm so sorry.
I can't hear you, Captain.
Look, I just got to get over her tiny.
Her tiny syric loft.
She's so tiny.
He's really good.
These 2 are so sweet.
Like I just, I'm happy to spend time with them, even though this
doesn't go anywhere.
You know what's really sad?
So much fun.
I'm not going to talk about Aaron Eisenberg's staff every time
he's on screen, you know, when we do one of these.
What's really sad is he's clearly got some talent.
You know, he's a really charismatic actor and when you give him
stuff like it's only a paper nude.
You can see what he's got in him.
He didn't get a lot of work after DS9 and I don't know if it's
that's a physical thing. you know, that he was a short bloke who
looked a certain way.
But what's wonderful about Star Trek is it can bring in, like you
were talking in last week's episode about the blind actor who
plays the engineer.
They can bring in people and give them these really great acting
roles.
Mm.
Yeah.
And it's so weird, isn't it?
Isn't it weird that they took this character that was in one scene
in emissary?
And they gave him all this sort of comedy stuff to do.
And then somewhere in the middle of series 3. like, no, we're
taking on a real journey.
So he starts off guarding Cisco's office suddenly trying to shake
his hand saying, right, I want you to sign me up to Starfleet.
Here's the goals.
And from then on, his character just developed in leaps and bounds
doesn't it?
I think I think it's the genius of this was the decision to
basically give every character a bunch of characters that
surrounded them.
So all of our people in the opening credits have characters that
they go with, you know, so, uh, so, you know, Quark has Rom, Jake
has Nog, um, Bashir has Garak, you know, and all of them end up
with with people around them.
So by the 7th season.
They've all got one or 2 pairings, haven't they?
That is where every time they're together.
You're like, yeah this is gold.
Yeah.
And so you end up with like 30 characters and no other Star Trek
has ever done that.
I mean, you think about who is in Star Trek the Next Generation.
Row.
It's basically it, Mr. Monk.
You have the old, like, Mr. Troy Gowron, but they're sort of 11
episode a year characters.
Yeah.
And even last week, like even last week, we had Mitchell, who was
with Ortegas, the woman who was the leader of the Red Guards, the
leader of Ahuras.
Oh, yeah.
Ahura's Guards, and she had been at Ops or whatever.
I can never remember what those stations are called, you know, in
the opening thing, and she's been in a couple of episodes.
There's someone who sits at Ahura's place when she's not on the
bridge, a guy.
I think I can, and he's got a name.
But basically, it's just the characters in the opening credits.
And I always think that's a little bit crap.
And this does a great job.
I think 90s shows, like, I think Voyager tried to do this.
They tried to do their earrings and they just weren't as
successful.
There were some, like you had the doctor in seven.
Janeway and Chuba when they thought about it.
And they tried to do it with Harry Kim and Tom Paris, but you...
But I mean, there's basically 8 people on the ship.
Yeah, you know what I mean?
Whereas this is early though.
In series two, they try to bring in all these extra.
And then Jerry Taylor was like, oh, I'm going to kill them all.
Scott and Hogan and yeah, yeah, crazy.
Brad Dureff, our consulting psychopath.
But it does mean there are 2 layers to this story, aren't they, to
this series.
It means, you know, you can have a great a really well written
episode and it's just great on those terms.
And you've got the carrot stuff or you've got a sort of middling
episode and great character stuff.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, Garrett gets his own episodes.
You know, like, it's, uh, that's the best for the rung, I think.
Oh, here we go.
You know, when I was younger.
There was this big ugly tree.
It was a nasty old tree.
I liked it.
You know, it sounds great.
Right, Cage has just given her a look as well.
I know it's such a shit Star Trek speech.
He goes, but you loved it, didn't you?
No I hated it.
Look at him smiling at the at the shitty story.
I've acted in some of the finest productions that America has
brought out.
And family affairs.
And now I'm listening to this shit.
But you're right.
Again, like his backstory, you know, his absurd backstory that
we're supposed to laugh at.
Yeah, yeah.
Suddenly, I don't think anyone expected him to then start churning
out a tree story as soon as Cisco appears.
Well, that is so funny, tell him the tree story.
That's great.
That's brilliant.
That saves that stupid.
Peter Allen Fields knows what's not working.
Yeah, it's making fun of it.
So...
Yeah.
Yeah, and so this becomes, so does she kick him out, because she
is worried about losing her job?
I don't think so.
I know, I never got that.
Well, kick, kick.
She agrees to destroy, to take Mullerbok. forcibly from here, which
is the only choice that she's given after Cisco speaks to her and
says, I'm worried about your career.
Maybe then.
And in that case, so the name progress, the word progress has got
to be sort of ironic.
Yeah?
Like he's standing in the way of progress.
They have to destroy a whole planet to heat some homes in winter.
I don't think he's above using irony and this whole duet is very
ironic, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
They are dancing in a very acidic way.
Yeah.
That's right.
So progress is a good title, but does she do the wrong thing?
Like, I don't know how I'm meant to feel about her decision.
You know, you don't like that.
I think you like a sort of definitive.
No, no, I no, I do like that.
There is something about that that I do like, but I wonder...
I wish I had a clearer idea. doesn't muddy the water enough.
I don't know, especially not in the 90s.
And it's like at the end of Cubic's where Janeway marches him off
to be murdered and it never condemns her for that action, what he
does, but the crew doesn't.
But you're left with that sort of uncomfortable.
She just commit murder.
Like, you know, I like I like that, that sort of unease.
Yeah, yeah, here though, because I don't know, I just don't know
why she does it.
And I wish I wish there was something more about Mullabok or
something that contributed to it. like if it was clearer or
something, you know.
Yeah, no, but if it was clear that Mullerbach was just an asshole
you know, who was like the rich people from Mixedus too, who was
just, do you know what I mean?
Like, and she just goes, yeah, look, it's, like I said before, if
she just grabbed him and says, stop being such a fucking drama
queen, everyone else is doing this, a lot of people are going to
benefit.
You're not going to die.
Just leave.
I'm taking you with me.
You know.
None a visitor here where she's sort of blinking back the tears
and says it's horrible.
What I've become is horrible.
I think she's great.
Yeah, yeah.
I just I just don't quite get what I'm supposed to think.
And I think I think it should be doing that.
Like I said, I don't mind ambiguity.
I don't mind any of those sorts of things, but I just think that
what this, what's this story about?
It's about Kira making this decision.
Why does she make that decision?
I think we need to know.
This sequence here as well, where he says, I like you.
You're my friend.
I worried about you.
You remember where they started an emissary?
You know, I suppose you won the office.
You know, it was very competitive.
I think how their relationship develops in the 1st 3 or 4
seasons.
It's really, it's quite subtle, but it's really beautifully
explored.
Do you remember when we get to um, Starship Down, where Cisco is
injured?
and she has to try and save him and she he's effectively like God
isn't he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know.
I, I, so maybe that's, that's maybe progress is their relationship
as well.
Oh yeah, no, I think so.
I think that it does refer to their relationship too.
So do you know what I mean?
I just don't know how to feel.
I adored this scene where it's like, she's sort of sort of fussing
over him and he goes, you got to talk all night.
And then and then she goes, fine.
He goes, where you going?
I'm going back to sleep.
Well, pull the chair over here.
Come on.
Yeah, I knew my nurse.
You're supposed to be my nurse.
This reminds me of that.
So I used to volunteer for age concern and I looked after for a
year an old guy and boy, what's the most miserable curmudgeonly
old guy you've ever met in your life, you know, if he could read
something negative in something, he'd find it.
Oh, I loved him to pieces.
He used to open the door and say, what do you want?
It reminds me so much this guy.
I think, you know, when you become, you know, sort of 70 odd
you've got every right, you know, to be horrible to everybody
else.
Yeah, I think that's probably fair.
Yeah.
Hmm.
So...
Is this a bit thinking now?
is a bit like the relationship with her father in 2nd skin, isn't
it?
Like when he comes back, it's they're very sort of close like
this.
And maybe if the writing isn't selling it.
I think the acting is absolutely...
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah, I think so too.
I was just really involved.
Really involved.
I remember and from my 1st watch of this, I remember watching the
1st season of DS9.
I loved mystery to pieces and then there was all those sort of cod
TNG ripoffs, like cueless and things like that.
And then it got to stuff like vortex and this.
And I'm like, ooh, this is really new.
Like, Yeah, well, I reckon I've mentioned progress a bunch of
times on untitled Star Trek Project because it always struck me as
a very good episode.
And I think the reason it's good is these two.
You'd be hard pressed to find an episode quieter than this.
In terms of like plot, you know, or jeopardy or anything like
that.
Yeah.
And, you know, you could you could put this on the stage.
Like, it doesn't need to be television this, does it?
No, well, no.
Speaking of the stage, at the stage.
Here's another very, you know, clearly enunciated conversation
designed to be overheard by to lead. things like that and it's
things like, you know, when they put 2 people both looking at the
camera having a conversation.
Yeah.
It's when you're like, oh, we're definitely in the 90s here.
I do love the thing about dirt.
I think that's really great.
And it seems, is it a, is it a Ferengi thing or is it just, no, a
Ferengi dismissive of real estate is a potentially lucrative
investment, generally?
Gator has a, is a gator?
What's his cousin?
Who is the moon?
Oh, cousin Gala, yeah.
He's got his old moon, yeah.
Yeah, that's real estate.
That's dirt.
Odo goes, you know, unlike Gala, you know, although I've met
Frankie that are more wealthy.
I've never met any as devious as you, Quark.
Oh, no.
That means so much to me See, there's another parent.
Oh, look at this shot zooming in on Jake and Dog.
You know what?
They all just sort of, they paid us off in in the cards. because
he gets the latinum in this and then at the beginning I'm in the
cars, it's like, no.
You surely you've got some money.
It goes, yeah, yeah, I've got that money. got that money. from
bars.
And he goes, I've got about 5 bars.
It's under my bed and he's like, 0 nog, you don't really keep it
under your bed, do you?
Really?
So that's the 5 bars.
Like, he has slept with the 5 bars in that episode.
Yeah.
I hope so. would be awesome.
That is, that's one of the joys of having a seven-year run, isn't
it?
that you can play off things like that.
Yeah.
I never forget there's, um, you know, after rejoined, there's, um
an episode in series 5 series 6 where they go, oh, yeah, Lenara
Calm's been working on, you know, creating wormhouse so we can get
it.
So they do that quite a lot.
I like that.
Little streaks.
Yeah, I think Quark's reaction here is a little bit undercooked as
well.
I don't know what's happening.
That's unusual for Robin Sherman, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, uh...
Okay, so what, no way.
No, look, he must. no, no, no.
Like he gives...
Oh yeah, no, he gets the latinum and then he gets the, like, why
doesn't, that just makes no sense.
I don't I don't know.
He just wants Latinum, right?
Yeah.
Why doesn't he think he'll get latinum from the government, from
the Bajoran government?
Well, yeah, this could get a lot more of the sunrises.
Oh yeah, that's really nice.
The sunrises.
I look at this.
I mean, we haven't really talked about the interior set.
I think that's really nice there. you know, and it's go on.
I wish it was a house rather than just redressed standard cave set
one.
I like the fact the window looks like a Bajoran badge. combat.
Yeah, I do too.
Like, and the round door and stuff as well.
Like the, like the, they, which is why, you know what?
It just, it doesn't look like stock colony set number 58, though
which I like.
Yeah, imagine if they had just gone to a house in the country like
they do in Nepenthe, you know, like that might have been better.
Oh, that's about women doing that.
Oh, the suggestion, you know, going out on location.
Yeah, going outside.
It always baffles me as well.
Sometimes when they choose episodes to go outside.
Do you remember Times Orphan, that one where Molly O'Brien falls
down, they go to this beautiful park to film it.
I'm like, for that episode?
Yeah, I just like I like these bricks.
I really like the bricks that they're putting on the thing.
Yeah, it's like, so what?
I'm gonna go back on what I said.
They're so good together.
It is almost a shame we didn't get a bit more of them.
I really actually, and look, like I just don't know how to read
this.
He kind of goes yes, you're right there.
Like he, she says last one.
He knows what she means and he kind of accepts that that's what
she means and um, he puts the brick there and, Then what happens?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, yeah, then, yeah, like...
But then he does act shock, doesn't he?
Because he says, what the hell are you doing when she...
But he doesn't overact.
He doesn't overreact.
But what I love is when she starts setting fire to the house, you
know, this was Voyager, we'd have someone, you know, running
screaming, going, stop, you know, my house, you know, it would all
be very hysterical.
His muted reaction is...
I like that a lot.
I really like it.
And I just like the way that she lights bits of it and does it
slowly and then just throws the torch into the house and then
walks away.
I think all of that stuff is great.
I think this is where it's sort of scenes like this, moments like
this.
This is where if you cast brilliant actors in your ensemble.
You know, you get moments like this.
I can only imagine Robert Duncan McNeil acting out this soon.
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah.
And and that's it too.
Like, she, he says to her, you don't want to do this and she
doesn't disagree with him.
And clearly she doesn't.
You know, that's why she was kind of holding back tears with
Cisco.
But once she recasted as saving his life.
He's a stupid old man who will just make a point by staying here
and letting himself get killed.
And the only thing that she can do to stop that from happening is
this, and it's a real kind of act of violence that's kind of
nicely underplayed, and just such an unusually physical thing for
Star Trek.
But noisy trek as well. sets.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I can't believe it.
No, our visitors set that entire time. right.
It's really good.
The feathers are there with the fire extinguishers like, car, come
on.
We've gotta get it out.
And yeah, I don't know.
So she's saving his life and it is also this thing where it's kind
of like she has to accept that she's a grown-up with grown-up
authority, that thing about parenthood that I said earlier, that
that she, he can have his tantrum or whatever, but she has to put
a stop to it in order to, in order to make sure he survives.
It's not just, um, it's not just about making sure that, look at
the fine.
I'm not sure Studio 6 is going to survive this, you know?
really going for it.
Oh, and that's the final shot, is it?
fade out on her face.
Yeah, let's...
Yeah, yeah.
It must be really interesting for me to write this recording, is
you sort of trying to, um, determine where the characters are at
and kind of not reaching any solid conclusions.
I don't think that's a terrible thing.
I think maybe it could have been a bit clearer in places.
Yeah, I think I think that if it's this decision that she makes, I
think we need to know why she makes that decision.
And either the episode has just said no, we'll leave people space
to work that out for themselves, okay.
But I would, I don't know.
I don't know.
Like Peter Allensfield's next script, you wear comes to a
definitive conclusion in its last scene.
He's a Cardassian.
Who cares that, yeah, that's reason enough to kill him.
She says, no, it's not.
And then we pull away.
Stupid ending.
I love that ending.
Well, he just gets killed by some rando.
You know, that shit... you comfort you wear, all right?
I love you.
I really like that episode, but that's terrible at ending.
What I will say about progress is you and I told off mic about TNG
episodes that did similar things.
So you've got Journeys End in series 7.
And you've got an episode, I think it's in series 3 quite early
where data goes to a colony and he has to try and get them all off
there and he's like blowing up an aqueduct.
And it's also functional and it's also sort of heartless.
Journey's End is a very awkward episode to watch.
I mean, it's trying to move native Americans.
Can you imagine?
It's so it's so icky, the representation.
I mean, puts Picard in the middle of that decision.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, and that decision plays out.
It's like I have my orders, but my ancestor did this, and in fact
all of us who are European have ancestors that did this.
I get it by...
And yeah, Patrick Stewart's going for it, but it's all a bit...
But there's no warmth to any of it.
There's no there's no sort of character to any of it.
I think this is that done.
That idea, just strip back.
Yeah. with great characters in there. and that's what works about
this.
I think I think DS9, especially in its 1st year, sort of looked at
TNG, so right, how can we do those types of stories?
Like, look at emissary, the very 1st scene of emissary.
We've seen 100 scenes of, you know, ships blowing up and and
debris, you know, rocks falling out of consoles, but we've never
seen something as up close as a man rushing to try and save his
wife during all of that and failing and then seeing his reaction
as they're pulling away from. you know so it gives that kind of
personal touch to all of that stuff that we've seen.
That's a huge strength of DS9.
Yeah, that's true.
And I think, dude, this is like a version of Deep Space 9 that we
don't end up going with.
But I kind of like this version, even though I don't think it's a
massive success and it is nice to watch the show develop from this
into something else.
And so we have 2 plots which are both kind of a showcase for the
regulars involved in them and they're fun and, you know
interesting and stuff and you get some proper acting for Kira.
You know, I just think it's a terrifically fun piece of work and
there are things to criticise as there always are, but I would be
lying if I said that I didn't enjoy watching this because I really
really did.
Yeah.
So, it's the end of the episode, and it's time for us to choose
what we are going to be talking about next time, and it's my turn
to press the button, so I am on untitled Star Trek project.com
slash randomiser, and I've picked 2 series of Star Trek, which
we're going to select from randomly.
I was about to say how random, but go on, which 2 series have you
chosen?
Well, um, we've just spent a lot of time in Kurtzman Trek just in
real life watching, uh, you know, 10 weeks of Picard series 3.
I watched all of Lower Decks through, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so I've done a lot of cursmen lately.
Yeah, yeah.
So I think we're going to stay on 90s track.
But we're going to choose the 2 most Star Trekie entries in the
Kurtzman Trek cannon.
So that's next generation and Voyager.
Okay.
And we have done a lot of DS9 later.
We have.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's always good though.
Okay, let's go.
Your random Star Trek Voyager episode is counterpoint.
Oh, buck a wrap.
We already did that in episode 34.
Which we've, you know, sort of come to the conclusion might be one
of the strongest episodes.
Yeah.
I do use the randomiser to secretly push people towards listening
to the podcast.
So if it's one we've done, it will say, it says at the end here, we
cover this episode on Untitled Star Trek Project, episode 34 and a
link.
Oh, well, you're a genius.
Always marketing.
Absolutely. always be marketing.
Ooh.
So this is a two-parter.
It's one episode of a two-parter, and I think we're going to want
to do this one.
It's Scorpion part 2, I've rolled.
Fucker me.
I was just talking about counterpoint being the best of Voyager.
This might be the best, best point in Voyagers run.
Yeah, yeah.
And, you know, we spent 10 weeks with seven, seeing where that
character went and where she ended up and just loving how superb
she is.
And so this is her starting point.
What do you reckon?
I think it's one of the best realised Voyager episodes as well.
They put some money into this one.
It looks terrific.
Do you know, someone said on Twitter recently, the wonderful Jason
Thomson.
He said 7's arc is, because her 1st line in Scorpion is, I speak
for the Borg.
Wow.
And at the end of Picard, she speaks for the Federation, a
flagship of the Federation, and that's her run.
That's a terrific run as well.
Oh, we got to do that.
I think we do.
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find
links to our Twitter, Mastodon, Facebook, and YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lam.
This episode was recorded on the 25th of April 2023 and released
on the 5th of May.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager, Scorpion and
Scorpion part two.
Yeah, I think we do.
And plus Harry Kim is mutilated and tortured horribly.
Oh, cool.
Excellent.
Which is always fun.
Doesn't get a promotion.
Yeah, well, I mean, this is their best of both worlds, isn't it?
It's the end of series three.
Yeah.
And they've got a cast change that they're going to do.
And they're going to make this as big as possible.
And I guess they've always been heading towards the Borg.
At some point, we knew that they would be coming.
Oh my god, it's got species 90210 as well.
What are they?
8472.
Which started off really well. although the CGI is a bit ropey. 80s
bit, right?
90s CGIs.
There's a weird comparison with Best of Both Wells because and
watch this with this in mind.
I think the best of both worlds part one is better than Scorpion
part one.
Yeah, but I think that Scorpion part 2 is way better than the best
of both worlds part two.
Because you've suddenly got you've suddenly got Jerry Ryan.
Yeah.
And I just don't think they quite knew where to go after that
cliffhanger in the best of both worlds, you know.
Were they clearly?
It's still great.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's still great, but it's the very rare thing of a 2nd part of a
2 parter being the more impressive.
Wow.
Well, that's going to be great.
Yeah.
Great.
Fire up Netflix now.
Okay.
Excellent.