WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-06 at 22:57:21

1
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Hey, Joe. Hi.

2
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So, last week, it was your choice.

3
00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:31.800
So was it your choice or my choice?

4
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I can't remember now.

5
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That's right.

6
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I wanted to choose a middle of the road episode of Star Trek.

7
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That's right.

8
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Just a normal one.

9
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We done some big tent pole episodes and it was time to sort of plumb the depths of 90s Star Trek mediocrity.

10
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And I think we actually, mission accomplished with this one.

11
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This is Darkling, which is series 3 episode about 18.

12
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It's towards the end of the season.

13
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And it's very simply, you know, the doctor does Jekyll and Hyde, essentially.

14
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Yeah, I've got a feeling because I've said to you a few times on top of Star Trek Project that I consider season 3 of Star Trek Voyager to be one of the worst seasons ever.

15
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I think if you watch this through, actually, you'd be far kinder on this season, it's all kind of light, disposable, fairly amiable episodes with a few laughs and, you know, like an emphasis on the ensemble and a lot of hanging around and not doing a lot.

16
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Can I just say to you, right?

17
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Because on my blog.coho reviews, I wrote reviews of every single 90s trek episode and I got to this point in season three, right?

18
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And you had darkling and then rise and then favourite sun back to back and I termed it the trilogy of terror. 3 duds back to back.

19
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And there's only one other time when that happens.

20
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I also called that the trilogy of terror.

21
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And that's in season 5 when you have, 0 God, it's course oblivion, the fight and there's another one.

22
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I can't remember.

23
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It's another Harry Kim one.

24
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The disease.

25
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That's it.

26
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Oh, God.

27
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That's the 2nd trilogy of terror.

28
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And it's very rare because Nighty Shrek can be inconsistent.

29
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Yeah, but it's rare for them to knock out 3 terrible episodes on the trot.

30
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I know you're going to be a little kinder on this than me.

31
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I think this is pretty, pretty terrible.

32
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Well, I think it's the issue of low expectations probably.

33
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It's probably the same reason.

34
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You cannot keep using that excuse.

35
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Every time we watch Star Trek Voyager, right?

36
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Well, I actually think that the doctor does an experiment on himself that turns him into Jekyll and Hyde is a bad idea.

37
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I don't think it's obviously a bad idea.

38
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It's, you know, you're giving the job of one of the best actors in the cast to do that and you get him to have fun and do something else.

39
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And by all accounts, he really liked doing this episode.

40
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So I think he's pretty good as the evil version of the doctor who doesn't really end up with a name.

41
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And I also think what's good about it too, is that they actually go all in on making it a Gothic novel.

42
00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:24.659
So it's a, it's a sort of gothic horror story.

43
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You know, the doctor kind of delves into the weirdnesses of human psychology.

44
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There's, you know, these sort of weird extreme emotions, there's weather, there's, you know, a ravine.

45
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Like if it hadn't been a Star Trek episode, he would have plummeted off into that ravine with Kes and that would have been the end and it just the fact that it's Star Trek means that they get transported onto the ship at the last minute.

46
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So I think that that is actually not obviously a bad idea either.

47
00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:03.840
And I think where it fails is that it's kind of stuff that we've seen before.

48
00:04:03.900 --> 00:04:05.460
I mean earlier this season.

49
00:04:05.580 --> 00:04:13.199
We had Kess possessed and becoming evil, and I think that's a more successful episode than this. you think?

50
00:04:13.259 --> 00:04:14.159
It's more fun.

51
00:04:14.580 --> 00:04:19.740
Yeah, she's camping it up. has this insane bisexual dictator.

52
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Yeah.

53
00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:24.060
And it's Jennifer Leanne, who's normally, you know, mousy and quiet.

54
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She's loving it, jumping over tables, threatening to knock the woman this side and the man that side.

55
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Oh, great.

56
00:04:30.660 --> 00:04:34.259
Or he's just sort of hunched over and whispering and...

57
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You know, my big objection to this is like, that's not about anything.

58
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Like, we don't learn anything.

59
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Nobody goes through anything.

60
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It's 45 minutes of Star Trek on sort of, you know, yeah, you're right.

61
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The Gothic horror.

62
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I don't even think it's that successful or gothic horror.

63
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I thought Sub Rosa did a better job of sort of leaning into the aesthetic trappings of Gothic horror.

64
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Oh, I mean, this has, you know, down on the planet, I think it does the aesthetic trappings of Gothic horror, I think.

65
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It has a roaring fire and a ravine and a bit of wind, but...

66
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Yeah, so I think that it is a bit more substantial than that because what it has is something to say about humanity because the doctor becomes evil because he investigates or he incorporates into himself all of these characteristics from great figures from history.

67
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And what he discovers is that evil is more fundamental and has more right to exist than good does.

68
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And then Kess replies.

69
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Kess beats him by showing that even he as the evil version of the doctor, can't really live that way.

70
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And it's not a super profound thing.

71
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But I do think that there's a little bit of moral philosophy in there, which I thought was kind of interesting, if not hugely exciting.

72
00:06:03.540 --> 00:06:11.279
Maybe I just wasn't examining it at all. because I was just like, when is this going to be over?

73
00:06:11.339 --> 00:06:14.519
When is he gonna kidnap her and try and kill her?

74
00:06:14.579 --> 00:06:17.819
Um, there is some interesting trivia about this one.

75
00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:28.620
Because apparently it started off as a very different sort of an episode featuring the doctor being this sort of perverse, sort of much creepier.

76
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They say on memory alpha.

77
00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:38.399
There was a sequence where he had lots of copies of Kez and he's behaving in a sort of very pervy, uncomfortable sort of a way.

78
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And Joe Manosky said, look, if you're going to, if you're going to go down this route with this episode, you can take my name off it.

79
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I don't want to be a part of it.

80
00:06:46.620 --> 00:06:54.899
And for Joe Manosky to say that, given, you know, he created fan favourite masks and the Thor and things like that, that's quite something.

81
00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:57.120
Yeah, I don't know.

82
00:06:57.180 --> 00:07:02.459
I think this is very indicative of season 3 of Star Trek Voyager.

83
00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:04.199
It's probably quite a nice idea.

84
00:07:04.259 --> 00:07:11.399
It's fairly banal in its execution and it passes an hour okay.

85
00:07:11.459 --> 00:07:12.660
That's right.

86
00:07:12.779 --> 00:07:17.339
But you can't have a season of Star Trek like that. of just that.

87
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It's okay.

88
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Well, you know, like it's not a huge disaster like manhunt, for instance, like it's written and it has a structure and it coheres around some ideas, you know, but it's pretty forgettable.

89
00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:39.839
I certainly had no memory of it, even though I have seen it before.

90
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When you rolled Darkling when you rolled Darkling last week, I was kind of, is there a Voyager episode called Darkling?

91
00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:52.319
So I had pretty thoroughly forgotten it.

92
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Do you recall the other 2 of the trilogy of terror?

93
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Rise and Favourite Sun?

94
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Well, I actually watched Rise Recently because of the story you told on the podcast about how Jerry Ryan watched it.

95
00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:12.000
After she, like when she was considering the job.

96
00:08:13.259 --> 00:08:19.319
And that is bad, but not completely worthless as well.

97
00:08:19.379 --> 00:08:21.060
I think it has some moments.

98
00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:22.500
Like it's not...

99
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Relentlessly terrible. brilliant.

100
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If they'd have had like 100 times the budget, better actors and, you know, the script had had 3 more passes.

101
00:08:32.340 --> 00:08:33.779
Yeah, yeah.

102
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Tim Rusk gets a big role in it and that rarely happens and you've got to like that.

103
00:08:38.340 --> 00:08:50.100
So, you know, I think most of the time, you know, there's a germ of a good idea in every Star Trek episode, even the worst ones, but, you know, it's kind of potluck in 90s trick as to how it's brought to the screen.

104
00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:55.320
But I mean, it sounds like this is the season where, and we've talked about this before.

105
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Season one and 2 is very Voyager, and it leans into the premise and it does things only Voyager could do.

106
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Here.

107
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It's nothing like that.

108
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There's a little bit of stuff at the beginning about how they've met these new people and their method of turning up to a planet and interacting with the locals is different from being sent on a mission by Starfleet or whatever.

109
00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:21.840
But essentially, this could have been in any Star Trek.

110
00:09:21.899 --> 00:09:24.840
They do the queue episode this season.

111
00:09:24.899 --> 00:09:27.480
Q and the Grey, they did the Ferengi episode this season.

112
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They do the, you know, um, an alien delegation comes on the ship and passes on race memories of terrible Holocaust things that happened in the past episode.

113
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They do the macrovirus on the shit.

114
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I mean, it's all TNG knockoffs.

115
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Do you remember that one with Jane Boy's like Ripley going around in a tank top and a big gum?

116
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I mean that's pretty cool. shitty CGI floating monsters.

117
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But there ain't nothing they couldn't have done in TNG.

118
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No.

119
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Until the end where they remember.

120
00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:00.120
Oh yeah, we're in an aboriginal space.

121
00:10:00.179 --> 00:10:02.700
Let's go into Borg space, you know, and then they do scorpion.

122
00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:04.500
But it takes until then.

123
00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:17.039
Like this, this could have been, uh, you know, I don't know, Rich Barkley could have been playing about with a hologram and creating an evil hologram made out of, um, I mean, who is it the doctor uses in this?

124
00:10:17.100 --> 00:10:19.379
Oh, is Byron?

125
00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:21.480
So Lord Byron's there, Gandhi.

126
00:10:21.539 --> 00:10:24.120
I mean, we'll get there and we'll see.

127
00:10:24.179 --> 00:10:24.899
I mean, Gandhi.

128
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Well, we'll get there because I have things to say.

129
00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:29.220
Okay.

130
00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:30.539
Well should we watch it?

131
00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:32.159
I think we probably should.

132
00:10:32.220 --> 00:10:41.159
So I will count us in 5, 4, 3, 2, one, and we're off.

133
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Here we go.

134
00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:44.220
Oh, look at that.

135
00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:46.080
It does look like...

136
00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:47.639
506, 93.2.

137
00:10:47.820 --> 00:10:49.139
No, it looks like a toilet bowl.

138
00:10:49.259 --> 00:10:51.299
I think it looks like a trowel.

139
00:10:52.500 --> 00:10:54.480
You see there you go.

140
00:10:54.539 --> 00:10:55.740
That's a nice shot.

141
00:10:55.799 --> 00:10:57.120
That's a thing.

142
00:10:57.179 --> 00:11:02.279
I swear that's the same shot from Angel one. you know, it seems one of next year.

143
00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:06.840
That has that building that we see over and over again throughout the...

144
00:11:06.899 --> 00:11:12.960
Well, actually, every time that Kate Mulgrew turned up, it was not too often, unfortunately, she's delightful.

145
00:11:13.019 --> 00:11:15.779
I like this set, actually, this bar.

146
00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:17.639
I think it's reasonably good.

147
00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:22.379
I think that's the same set, you know, that they had for alliances in the previous season.

148
00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:24.059
They use a similar sort of bar.

149
00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:27.360
I think they've kept it around and they've just ended a bit of set dressing and a fireplace.

150
00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:39.480
But I think giving it the fireplace and giving it the stone walls, you know, as if it's taking place in an old building and that's one of the venues for Gothic to take place.

151
00:11:39.539 --> 00:11:49.559
And we open with him telling this sort of ghost story. you know, essentially, which we discover is, what is his nose?

152
00:11:49.620 --> 00:11:53.100
He's like a low range. piercing eyes, isn't he?

153
00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:54.480
Yeah, yeah.

154
00:11:55.200 --> 00:12:03.419
Well, what were you watching the other day when you said someone had, you were watching a 90s track the other day, weren't you, when you said someone had extra nostrils or something like that?

155
00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:07.379
Oh, yeah, no, well, that was in Warlord, which I watched after this.

156
00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:08.159
Yeah.

157
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So Zahir is the handsome one, played by David Lee Smith, and he's sort of very handsome in a Ronan kind of way.

158
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Do you know what I mean?

159
00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:23.519
Like he's not actually handsome, but he would look good on the front cover of a sort of pulpy romance novel.

160
00:12:23.580 --> 00:12:27.600
And he's having a romance with Kezin.

161
00:12:27.659 --> 00:12:29.820
Now, Kez has recently separated from Neelix.

162
00:12:29.879 --> 00:12:33.659
Well, God, which spares us having to talk about that relationship anyway.

163
00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:38.519
Yeah, well, in fact, that happens in Warlord when she's actually possessed by the guy.

164
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She dumps him for being too clingy.

165
00:12:40.500 --> 00:12:43.019
Ethan Phillips has a lot to say about that. actually.

166
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There's a quote from him saying he was really annoyed because there was a sequence in warlord at the end where she says, no, this wasn't me possessed.

167
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I genuinely want to break up with you. and he's really her, but they actually bring, because, Ethan Villa's just like, well, that relationship just got brought to an end in the middle of this episode, where, you know, this has been going on for 2.5 years.

168
00:13:03.659 --> 00:13:05.399
We've done whole episodes about this relationship.

169
00:13:05.460 --> 00:13:08.580
Shouldn't we bring this to a definitive conclusion?

170
00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:10.200
And they just go, nah, that'll do.

171
00:13:10.259 --> 00:13:12.480
Yeah, but it's series 3, isn't it?

172
00:13:12.539 --> 00:13:14.700
Like series 3 isn't doing serialisation.

173
00:13:14.759 --> 00:13:17.639
It's not changing the status quo. not leaning into the premise.

174
00:13:17.700 --> 00:13:20.700
It's just trying to do old Star Trek episodes, I think.

175
00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:26.700
And romance of the week and he can play this week's, you know, victim of this Gothic horror.

176
00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:36.419
Well, I have to say that I wouldn't have wanted to watch that scene because I think that the Kess Neelix relationship is terrible for both characters and I'm glad it's over.

177
00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:38.460
Yeah.

178
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What were they thinking?

179
00:13:41.159 --> 00:13:43.019
Yeah, I don't know.

180
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Don't know.

181
00:13:43.980 --> 00:13:46.259
We've got this great idea.

182
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We can have this weird alien.

183
00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:55.559
It's like this amalgam of every single latex alien we've ever had in Star Trek before. and he's in love with a three-year-old. two-year-old.

184
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That's right.

185
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So weird.

186
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:02.580
Not quite as weird as when they did that.

187
00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:06.960
You remember, the one that went into the future and Harry Kim was then having sex with a 2 year old.

188
00:14:07.019 --> 00:14:08.100
That was gross.

189
00:14:08.220 --> 00:14:09.720
Okay, so here we are.

190
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Here is Gandhi.

191
00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:16.559
But what we're seeing Gandhi do is be a massive killjoy about sex.

192
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And of course, he was that, you know, like, so all of that sort of super tedious.

193
00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:29.700
And all of these people that we, I mean, and this, the least sexy Lord Byron ever to appear on screen.

194
00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:33.779
Probably one of the worst actors in any star.

195
00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:36.840
He's doing this awfully clipped British accent.

196
00:14:36.899 --> 00:14:38.460
Well, I think he's American.

197
00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:38.820
Surely.

198
00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:40.919
They have just got an American trying to do the accent.

199
00:14:40.980 --> 00:14:41.879
It's really...

200
00:14:41.940 --> 00:14:42.659
And can I just say it?

201
00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:46.679
This whole hideous Hawaii holidays there.

202
00:14:46.740 --> 00:14:49.320
I hate it on a level I cannot explain.

203
00:14:49.379 --> 00:14:55.919
You know, I really liked it because I did go back and watch Warlord, which is where this is set, is introduced, I think.

204
00:14:56.039 --> 00:14:59.580
Is that the one where Neelix's feet are jiggling about?

205
00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:00.720
Yeah, yeah.

206
00:15:00.779 --> 00:15:01.980
Yeah, he's dancing.

207
00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:02.700
I can't remember.

208
00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:03.299
I think it is.

209
00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:04.860
I think it's the 1st scene of Warlord.

210
00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:05.759
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

211
00:15:05.820 --> 00:15:12.059
And they sex the program up a bit because Neelix is a sort of high-end spa for very rich people.

212
00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:15.600
And then I think Tom puts lots of girls in bikinis.

213
00:15:15.659 --> 00:15:22.019
Oh, there's Tapau over there. look to power at the desk. literally, it is just the colony set they use for other places.

214
00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:26.340
Made to look like a beach, like go and film it on a fucking beach.

215
00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:27.779
Or does it sound like you?

216
00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:29.759
Is this is this some?

217
00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:33.179
I don't know who that is, some Greek philosopher, probably. philosopher.

218
00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:34.259
Yeah, I don't know who.

219
00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:35.220
He's wearing a robe.

220
00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:36.480
Yeah, you know.

221
00:15:36.539 --> 00:15:39.240
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's not bald, so it can't be Socrates.

222
00:15:39.299 --> 00:15:41.460
You see how Gandhi's trying to get out of shot there.

223
00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:42.779
He was running off.

224
00:15:42.899 --> 00:15:44.399
No, in fact, this is fantastic.

225
00:15:44.460 --> 00:15:50.580
It's Gandy talking to a lady in a bikini, which I just think is absolutely hilarious in the background of this shop.

226
00:15:50.700 --> 00:16:01.440
You know, like, this would be fun, but do you remember the beginning of, uh, is it Times Arrow or Descent, where Data's got, uh, Stephen Hawking and, you know, all the geniuses?

227
00:16:01.500 --> 00:16:02.580
Oh, I started.

228
00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:03.899
We've done this before.

229
00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:05.039
Yeah, yeah.

230
00:16:05.100 --> 00:16:14.279
I do actually like the weird grotesqueness of what the doctor does to those holograms later in the episode.

231
00:16:14.340 --> 00:16:16.379
I don't think it goes far enough.

232
00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:18.720
I think it's all a bit comic and yeah.

233
00:16:18.779 --> 00:16:22.379
Like, it should be really, it should be like horrible.

234
00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:26.279
But it is like you said, it's PG-13, 90s track, isn't it?

235
00:16:26.340 --> 00:16:38.460
It's it sort of straddles the line between disturbing and stupid, and I think it basically lands on stupid, but it's it's near, it's getting near disturbing, I think.

236
00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:42.240
And so here, there we go.

237
00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:53.100
There's the doctor delivering some much needed exposition in case you missed that and who wouldn't miss that Neelix and case have broken up in case you've been wondering.

238
00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:56.759
Oh, my outside Gandhi had terrible legs.

239
00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:57.960
Didn't they?

240
00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:01.080
He was famous for it.

241
00:17:01.139 --> 00:17:01.620
Yeah.

242
00:17:03.059 --> 00:17:11.400
I mean, it is, I suppose it's quite nice that they're giving Jennifer Leanne more opportunities because she's only going to be around for another sort of half season now.

243
00:17:11.460 --> 00:17:13.319
Yeah, less than that.

244
00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:17.700
At this point, there's very few episodes for her left because we're quite...

245
00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:22.259
But in this season, they give a warlords, this, and before and after.

246
00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:24.539
Those are the 3 biggies this season.

247
00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:32.339
And as we discussed before, you know, they put a ton of latex on our own before and after. and ask her to try and act her way through it.

248
00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:34.500
It's pretty grim, isn't it?

249
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:36.359
I think she's really good.

250
00:17:36.420 --> 00:17:40.019
I think she's massively underused, but I really like her.

251
00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:54.000
And when she's just doing her normal thing because she's got that beautiful, deep voice and she's sort of, you know, she's kindly an elf and I, you know, and I like her relationship with a doctor a lot and I like her relationship with Jane.

252
00:17:54.059 --> 00:18:03.299
Especially in series one where she's sort of going after his rights, you know, she actually goes up to the captain and says, you know, you treat him like a person.

253
00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:06.240
You use him like a person, so treat him like a person, you know.

254
00:18:06.299 --> 00:18:06.839
Yeah.

255
00:18:06.900 --> 00:18:10.500
And then Jane Wick goes sick by and apologises to him.

256
00:18:10.619 --> 00:18:11.039
It's wonderful.

257
00:18:11.099 --> 00:18:15.599
And then Robert Picardo's reaction to that, whereas like, that's the last thing he ever suspected to happen.

258
00:18:15.660 --> 00:18:17.220
It's really touching.

259
00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:22.920
You go, Voyager, stately, heading through planets and nebulae.

260
00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:28.440
Yeah, well, this is a bit less fun than the lower decks opening credits.

261
00:18:28.500 --> 00:18:34.680
Um, and maybe talk about that. creatures sucking the serena.

262
00:18:34.740 --> 00:18:35.579
No.

263
00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:40.259
I've been recently binge watching all the lower decks episodes that I haven't seen.

264
00:18:40.380 --> 00:18:46.920
May I say, I watched this in the middle of all that, and this was nowhere near as fun as any of those appears. of them.

265
00:18:49.980 --> 00:18:52.019
Now this sequence here.

266
00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:56.339
Okay, this is the one bit where he behaves in a bit of a purview way, isn't it?

267
00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:59.279
where he's not stroking a leg.

268
00:18:59.339 --> 00:19:02.160
But unfortunately, she does have to belong.

269
00:19:02.220 --> 00:19:08.099
Yeah, doing it to Kes, I think, would have been more unpleasant to watch.

270
00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:13.619
And this is kind of gross, but she's immediately kind of what the hell are you doing?

271
00:19:13.619 --> 00:19:16.619
And then she absolutely...

272
00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:17.220
Yeah, yeah.

273
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:19.319
You know, do that, I'm going to snap, snap your fingers off.

274
00:19:19.380 --> 00:19:20.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

275
00:19:20.940 --> 00:19:22.799
Like and so that's pretty cool.

276
00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:25.859
She's so great.

277
00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:26.700
You better back off.

278
00:19:28.500 --> 00:19:32.940
I think Torres is certainly in latter-day voyage.

279
00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:35.579
We've discussed this, but I think she's massively underused.

280
00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:37.619
Roxanne Dawson is such a presence.

281
00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:41.759
She's good Yeah, I mean, there's some great people on this cast.

282
00:19:41.819 --> 00:19:54.119
It's not quite the all-star cast of Deep Space Nine, but, you know, you've got the good Robert, you've got Janeway, you've got Tim Russ, you've got Belana, Jerry Ryan. you know, Jerry Ryan.

283
00:19:54.180 --> 00:19:54.900
Jennifer Leanne.

284
00:19:54.900 --> 00:19:55.680
Jennifer Leanne.

285
00:19:55.740 --> 00:19:56.519
Like, they're all good.

286
00:19:57.059 --> 00:20:01.079
And what is weird as well is even like the weaker actors.

287
00:20:01.140 --> 00:20:02.880
There are moments where they deliver.

288
00:20:02.940 --> 00:20:04.799
Yeah, of course.

289
00:20:04.859 --> 00:20:06.539
Yeah, they're not terrible all the time.

290
00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:08.880
Not even the worst, Robert.

291
00:20:08.940 --> 00:20:15.059
Whereas, you know, like the TNG chart cast, which coast along on fantastic chemistry.

292
00:20:15.059 --> 00:20:18.480
Oh, sorry. and just being a new thing.

293
00:20:18.539 --> 00:20:25.319
I mean, the thing with the TNG cast is they kind of broke the ground here and created this kind of thing.

294
00:20:25.380 --> 00:20:28.619
Ah, ooh, that's interesting, isn't it?

295
00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:36.779
So he starts stroking her leg after he has isolated the additions to his program and held them for a view.

296
00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:39.720
So he's still behaving like that.

297
00:20:39.779 --> 00:20:45.660
So this is the 1st hint that these additions to his program are leaking in some way.

298
00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:46.920
There's some kind of problem.

299
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:51.059
Do you know what pleased me was they didn't wait too long.

300
00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:56.099
You know, after Zahir is thrown off the ravine or whatever, occurs to him.

301
00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:57.240
They didn't wait too long.

302
00:20:57.299 --> 00:21:05.640
I think it's in the very next scene, they have the doctor go into the bar and order the drink because I thought, if they turn this into a whodunit, when they, that's tedious.

303
00:21:05.700 --> 00:21:08.400
It's been adding all these evil personalities.

304
00:21:08.460 --> 00:21:09.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

305
00:21:09.059 --> 00:21:11.460
So we know it's not exactly a mystery.

306
00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:13.559
Are we getting a really shitty shot in a 2nd?

307
00:21:13.619 --> 00:21:18.000
So we're seeing them in front of some rocks and some plants and stuff.

308
00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:21.299
It's a, you know, just a terrible Star Trek planet set.

309
00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:25.440
But I think, do we get to see them looking out at the moon or something?

310
00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:28.619
Yeah, they do a lot, really bad.

311
00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:31.740
It's a wonderful episode called Prime Factors.

312
00:21:31.740 --> 00:21:37.200
Oh, it's most sort of filmed on, you know, standard colony set number 58.

313
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:46.559
And but there's one scene of Harry Kim looking out across a beautiful vista and there's this photographed in front of her. better than that.

314
00:21:46.619 --> 00:21:48.720
It's still, this is bad though.

315
00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:50.099
I mean, it's something.

316
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:59.279
I get an awful lot of enjoyment, though, you know, when I watch 90s trek now. there's a particularly bad visual effect because I can just see you there watching it appalled, you know?

317
00:21:59.819 --> 00:22:02.640
You know, add something, I guess.

318
00:22:02.700 --> 00:22:04.380
Oh, dear.

319
00:22:04.380 --> 00:22:11.640
So whenever we do these episodes and we watch them in preparation for untitled Star Trek, I just, I just think about you watching it going, oh, God.

320
00:22:12.059 --> 00:22:14.279
What were they thinking?

321
00:22:17.339 --> 00:22:20.880
But like, you know, can I say this is another one of those 90s alien races, you know?

322
00:22:20.940 --> 00:22:22.259
We never going to remember again, are we?

323
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:23.579
No, they're so unmemorable.

324
00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:24.660
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

325
00:22:24.779 --> 00:22:29.819
We talk about the Beaumar, but like, no, I mean, these people don't look stupid.

326
00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:36.839
They've got sort of crappy kind of Bajoran nose ridges that are worse than the orbit, Joran nose ridges.

327
00:22:36.900 --> 00:22:47.099
But, um, I guess because he has to look pretty, he can't have, he can't be too Beaumari-ish, otherwise we wouldn't, you know, want to watch him kissing Cass.

328
00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:48.240
Not sure I want to watch it anyway.

329
00:22:48.299 --> 00:22:50.460
Clearly the doctor does, though, in that little.

330
00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:53.099
It is sinister, but rogue.

331
00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:54.660
What could it possibly be?

332
00:22:58.259 --> 00:23:05.160
I think, too, that part of the problem is that Star Trek does such straightforward linear storytelling at this point.

333
00:23:05.220 --> 00:23:07.740
Look, this is the walk of shame.

334
00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:10.319
She's been up all night fucking Zahir.

335
00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:20.940
You sort of do nothing where you can arrest your shoulder for some reason. that's right And look, she gets side eye from the transporter chief, chief who knows exactly what's going on here.

336
00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:22.380
What he's been up to last night, yeah.

337
00:23:22.500 --> 00:23:23.099
Yes.

338
00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:24.599
Why do you smell that?

339
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:27.480
I would choose such a fucking killjoy, isn't it?

340
00:23:27.539 --> 00:23:30.900
Well, remember, got a report during 3 hours.

341
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:33.599
Although I do like the next bit where she...

342
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:38.339
Is she in the in the room with Janeway and she looks like death warmed up because she's only had 2 hours sleep.

343
00:23:38.460 --> 00:23:39.539
Yeah.

344
00:23:39.539 --> 00:23:40.019
Yeah.

345
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:47.460
And Jane, where it goes, I'm the past master at, you know, pulling an all night. and then going to work the next day.

346
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:49.380
Janeway is so great, isn't she?

347
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:50.339
She is.

348
00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:58.859
Does that mean that she was like, you know, up all night having sex with someone and then submitting an essay by the 7 AM 9 AM deadline the next day or something?

349
00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:02.940
You're talking about me age 15 to 20 there, you know.

350
00:24:06.059 --> 00:24:08.099
I can do it now.

351
00:24:09.059 --> 00:24:19.980
But look, she's absolutely dressed in one of Depole's old outfits that have obviously been lying around for a few 100 years, isn't she?

352
00:24:20.700 --> 00:24:25.680
It looks, well, it's that sort of velour look against it, you were talking about.

353
00:24:25.740 --> 00:24:25.920
Yeah.

354
00:24:25.980 --> 00:24:34.859
Um, you know, this this kind of works because you'd think the doctor would be a little bit concerned about her, you know, going off and...

355
00:24:34.859 --> 00:24:36.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

356
00:24:38.460 --> 00:24:40.559
But because we've had all these scenes beforehand.

357
00:24:40.619 --> 00:24:45.059
And the indication that he's already a dirty pervert with B'lana.

358
00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:48.779
None of this, like it doesn't add up to any kind of a mystery.

359
00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:49.799
There's no suspense.

360
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:53.880
It's just like, okay, well, when are people going to figure out the doctor's got a bit bad?

361
00:24:53.940 --> 00:25:00.119
Yeah, yeah, but the problem is, isn't it, that we know before anyone else does?

362
00:25:00.180 --> 00:25:04.559
And so they look stupid is the problem because it's super obvious to us.

363
00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:21.059
You know, and if we hadn't seen that, if we discovered later that the doctor had been doing this, that would have made it a bit more interesting, but we're not going to do that in 90s trek, because it's meant to be comprehensible to people who aren't paying much attention, I think.

364
00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:26.400
I can't believe I'm going to ask you this question, but it happens so frequently that I can actually ask you this.

365
00:25:26.460 --> 00:25:32.460
Is there ever on a regular character has gone evil episode that actually genuinely works?

366
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:37.920
I thought we liked Marina in PowerPlay.

367
00:25:37.980 --> 00:25:39.539
I think.

368
00:25:39.660 --> 00:25:45.000
No, Marina in the one with Alcar. when she's like man of the people.

369
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:47.279
Don't leave me alcohol.

370
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:50.700
She attacked Picard with a knife in the transporter.

371
00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:58.019
Yeah, but is she also the one who goes, I think that he just might be sick of hearing you whining all the time.

372
00:25:59.220 --> 00:26:01.859
Oh, I love that scene so much.

373
00:26:01.859 --> 00:26:04.440
She goes, I know I am.

374
00:26:04.980 --> 00:26:07.019
It's so good.

375
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:16.799
No, I'll tell you what, actually, the best, probably the best ever, like, chilling performers is Tim Russett Mild, when he's the serial killer.

376
00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:18.299
Yeah, yeah.

377
00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:20.220
Well, he's really properly good actor.

378
00:26:20.279 --> 00:26:22.380
I think Kirst does a better job.

379
00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:23.940
Well, I think it's a better episode.

380
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:25.140
It's a more fun episode.

381
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:31.319
Do you not remember Evil Janeway in that episode where they're all misremembered?

382
00:26:31.559 --> 00:26:37.799
And she goes, when diplomacy fails, there's only one recourse, violence.

383
00:26:37.859 --> 00:26:38.279
Violence.

384
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:40.619
It must be applied without apology.

385
00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:42.779
That's a really good episode, though.

386
00:26:42.900 --> 00:26:45.660
That's one of the, that's top 5 voyages.

387
00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:46.440
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

388
00:26:46.500 --> 00:26:47.220
Living Witness.

389
00:26:47.220 --> 00:26:48.240
Living Witness.

390
00:26:48.299 --> 00:26:48.660
Thats it.

391
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:49.619
Yeah really good.

392
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:52.500
This certainly is not top five.

393
00:26:52.619 --> 00:26:54.660
No, I don't think it's bottom 5 though.

394
00:26:54.720 --> 00:27:01.019
It is relentlessly and unashamedly mediocre, I think.

395
00:27:03.779 --> 00:27:08.519
I've always aspire to be unashamedly mediocre though.

396
00:27:08.579 --> 00:27:09.539
That's it.

397
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:10.559
Me too.

398
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:16.500
I think I mean, again, these 2 together aren't great, aren't they?

399
00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:17.700
It is always good.

400
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:18.059
Yeah.

401
00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:22.259
Right up into the gift as well, where they have a phenomenal scene in that.

402
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:25.559
I just, I like the fact she's always straddling a coffee cup, Janeway, you know.

403
00:27:25.619 --> 00:27:28.440
We never quite forget she loves a cup of coffee.

404
00:27:28.500 --> 00:27:29.940
No, that's her character.

405
00:27:30.059 --> 00:27:32.640
They made a joke about that in Lower Decks, yet?

406
00:27:32.700 --> 00:27:35.220
They like the Janeway blend or something like that.

407
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:36.779
I don't know. can't remember.

408
00:27:36.839 --> 00:27:46.619
I think part of the problem, though, is the usual 90s trek dialogue as well, which is all just a little bit ripe and free of subtext.

409
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:47.400
I think.

410
00:27:47.460 --> 00:27:50.700
Oh, but that look, look, there's giving the look.

411
00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:55.440
The exacts aren't looking at her anymore, so she can be a bit maternal.

412
00:27:55.500 --> 00:27:57.180
Yeah, which is kind of nice.

413
00:27:57.240 --> 00:27:58.980
That is actually kind of nice, I think.

414
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:01.140
So we've established now.

415
00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:02.700
This is how obvious this all is.

416
00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:14.519
We've established now, you know, Kes isn't falling for this beautiful man on the planet with the bizarre Bajoran reduced, and he's been very helpful and he's getting them in touch with the right people to get the warp coils or whatever they need.

417
00:28:14.579 --> 00:28:17.759
This man is absolutely vital to Kez and the crew.

418
00:28:17.819 --> 00:28:20.099
So now he's going to be almost bumped off.

419
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:22.440
Well, I don't think he's vital.

420
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:35.160
And in fact, that's one of the things that I like about this episode is they just seem to be here to meet these people and to talk to them about. when they go when they do you remember that episode in series 6?

421
00:28:35.220 --> 00:28:44.279
Um, survival instinct. is the 2nd episode where they go to that space station and they're just hanging out with this fabulous race of people on this amazing setting.

422
00:28:44.339 --> 00:28:46.200
I'm like, yeah, they should do more of that though.

423
00:28:46.259 --> 00:28:46.859
Yeah.

424
00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:54.359
And I think Voyager can do that, perhaps, maybe more than other things where there's always a mission or something.

425
00:28:54.420 --> 00:28:56.220
They're just here on their way home.

426
00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:57.660
I kind of like it.

427
00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:11.940
And I think this scene is, I'm not sure what this scene is doing, but again, it's actually quite nice having Tim Rusk get to do something with someone for a change rather than just pressing buttons from the tactical station.

428
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:15.779
It is nice for everybody, like Jane Wade Schubok, the doctor.

429
00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:23.700
We've had a succession of scenes where they're all concerned about her in different ways because she's exploring. you know, this like this romantic side over now.

430
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:28.140
But like, are we supposed to think that she's going to want to stay here with this man?

431
00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:30.000
Maybe.

432
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:32.400
I mean, no, probably not.

433
00:29:32.460 --> 00:29:35.039
It's got to go wrong, doesn't it, in some way?

434
00:29:35.700 --> 00:29:39.960
It was just a bit in the minute where he's like, hello, is somebody there?

435
00:29:40.019 --> 00:29:42.180
He was like, oh, mate.

436
00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:47.460
You're going to be thrown off that ravine any minute.

437
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:48.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

438
00:29:49.019 --> 00:29:59.099
Do you know, I swear that ravine, they must keep that ravine hanging around as well, you know, because that's in a couple of, I think it's definitely in an episode of TNG where they climb a rock face.

439
00:29:59.160 --> 00:29:59.759
Yeah.

440
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:06.299
And it's in the, uh, it's in an episode of uh, Deep Space 9 move along home where they all fall off it.

441
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:09.299
In slow motion.

442
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:26.579
Well, I think it's, I think it's probably too expensive a set to be from early 90s trek because everything just looked like sort of chicken wire with a bit of papier mache on it, you know, like it never looked, there's a lot of detail in that.

443
00:30:26.579 --> 00:30:31.319
Well, they were going for the true TOS aesthetic in those early days, you know.

444
00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:31.980
They were.

445
00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:32.519
Yeah, yeah.

446
00:30:32.579 --> 00:30:32.759
No.

447
00:30:32.819 --> 00:30:37.680
I think that's almost a deliberate choice, but, you know, I mean, this isn't much better than that, is it?

448
00:30:37.740 --> 00:30:43.319
It's like we said, though, when we watched Enterprise last week, yeah, things did move on a bit.

449
00:30:43.380 --> 00:30:46.859
I know the CGI was a little ropey, but...

450
00:30:46.980 --> 00:30:47.460
You know?

451
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:51.180
And they rented a conference room at a shitty hotel as well.

452
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:52.380
There we go.

453
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:53.519
There he goes.

454
00:30:53.579 --> 00:30:55.740
I do quite like the slow motion.

455
00:30:55.799 --> 00:30:57.779
We don't have a lot of that in 90s straight, yeah.

456
00:30:57.839 --> 00:30:59.460
Yeah, it's a bit shit, isn't it?

457
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:07.980
But like, because I guess it would have looked like shit is a bit at the end when they Kez goes over and we literally do a POV shot going down the mountain.

458
00:31:13.079 --> 00:31:19.500
I just don't, I don't feel, like, Ricardo does say our memory alpha that he was having fun with this.

459
00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:21.299
I didn't really get that sense.

460
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:24.839
I wasn't having a lot of fun with it Yeah, look at him.

461
00:31:24.900 --> 00:31:27.779
He gets to burn that shithead there, which is pretty cool.

462
00:31:27.900 --> 00:31:29.640
And he's got...

463
00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:30.299
Warlord.

464
00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:33.359
Jennifer Yen is loving it, you know?

465
00:31:33.539 --> 00:31:45.420
But I think I think Picardo is doing something different because he's, I mean, he's camp, but he's not sort of camping it up and striding through things as a sort of as a big camp villain.

466
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:49.859
Like there's something a little bit more kind of sordid and unpleasant about him.

467
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:54.299
But because it's still Star Trek and there's a kind of lack of grittiness or realism to it.

468
00:31:54.359 --> 00:32:00.420
It, it doesn't kind of, you know, come off that well.

469
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:05.220
In living witness, he gets a single scene where he plays the evil doctor in that.

470
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:12.299
Yeah, and he's with 7 of 9 and they really lean into this sort of pervert doctor.

471
00:32:12.299 --> 00:32:19.259
And he's like, sorry, sort of sort of like stroking her implant and going on, start whining like a baby.

472
00:32:19.259 --> 00:32:24.720
And he's really, but he's chewing the scenery a bit, you know, whereas he's not doing much chewing here, is he?

473
00:32:24.779 --> 00:32:25.259
Yeah.

474
00:32:25.259 --> 00:32:28.799
I mean, he's trying to give it a bit. a bit of substance.

475
00:32:28.859 --> 00:32:42.299
Yeah Well, I think he's read the script and maybe he's seen the big moral speech that he gets to do to Kes when he's back down at the bar and that sort of lifted it in his estimation.

476
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:48.660
I don't know, though. you know, I think I probably would have just not a bit over the top if it was me.

477
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:51.839
Yeah, I mean, he's he hasn't been over the top.

478
00:32:51.900 --> 00:32:53.579
I think his hair is hilarious.

479
00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:55.200
He's got this.

480
00:32:55.619 --> 00:33:05.339
It's not quite Dr. Zimmerman hair, but he's got kind of, he's got these big fake, you know, Klingon teeth, you know, on his bottom jaw.

481
00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:06.900
Razy, bogly contacts.

482
00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:18.660
The contact lenses are really weird because they make his irises look smaller, and so he's these that are really unnaturally beady eyes, and look at him there.

483
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:21.599
He's got these beautiful dark eyes in real life.

484
00:33:21.900 --> 00:33:26.519
And it's only just slight, you know.

485
00:33:26.579 --> 00:33:28.980
And so it does make him look weird.

486
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:38.700
I mean, I think both of us rewatching this went, oh, he's wearing contact lenses, isn't he, before, you know, he'd read anything about it, but it's, it's, well, it's not subtle.

487
00:33:38.759 --> 00:33:44.519
But it is, it's an odd thing for them to do and it does make him look much creepier.

488
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:54.960
May I say that every single Star Trek show needs the character that can make this techna barrel seem effortless, and Roxanne Dawson does a brilliant job.

489
00:33:55.019 --> 00:33:57.180
Yeah, yeah, she is pretty good.

490
00:33:57.299 --> 00:33:57.839
Stop it.

491
00:33:57.900 --> 00:33:58.740
It like Lebar Burns.

492
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:00.180
It just trips off her tongue, you know?

493
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:08.280
I still think that LeVar doesn't get enough credit for being absolutely superb at doing that.

494
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:09.900
He sells...

495
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:11.039
We said the mould, didn't he?

496
00:34:11.099 --> 00:34:13.019
Yeah, yeah, but he just does it really well.

497
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:18.659
Because they don't, like, I don't, I think Nemoy has to do a bit of that in TOS.

498
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:20.699
Yeah, but really that's not his function, is it?

499
00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:24.780
His function is to be a character. whereas I don't think Jordan La Forge's function is to be a character.

500
00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:26.760
No, yeah, he's his job.

501
00:34:26.820 --> 00:34:46.139
I think, too, that this version of Star Trek really leans into the techno babble more than 60 Star Trek, and partly, I think, because we, like, it expects us to be aware of more science and more technology than they were aware of in the 60s.

502
00:34:46.199 --> 00:34:47.099
Do you know what I mean?

503
00:34:47.159 --> 00:35:08.460
And I think that they also like to do the sort of magical kind of, if we just say enough words, the space problem will go away, like as a way of solving things, which is a flaw, but they very often go for that, see before and after, which we mentioned earlier.

504
00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:10.139
Um, yeah.

505
00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:13.500
I wonder who on earth knocked Banatores out.

506
00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:17.699
Yeah, I actually think I don't like this scene very much.

507
00:35:17.940 --> 00:35:27.239
Actually, I think it's a, it's the upcoming scene because so he paralyses her and then starts Menacinger.

508
00:35:27.239 --> 00:35:30.900
I think that's, that's probably too much, I think.

509
00:35:31.559 --> 00:35:33.780
That was the one bit rifle.

510
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:35.280
This is a bit creepy.

511
00:35:35.340 --> 00:35:40.019
The bit where he's doing wacky things with the characters of the holiday.

512
00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:41.820
I just thought that was terrible.

513
00:35:41.880 --> 00:35:43.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

514
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:43.739
Yeah.

515
00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:46.079
And that, I mean, it's nearly going for that.

516
00:35:46.139 --> 00:35:50.460
It's going for grotesque and unsettling and just hits terrible.

517
00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:56.579
And it's certainly kind of scarier than when he's down on the planet and hunched over, you know, like.

518
00:35:56.940 --> 00:35:57.179
Yeah.

519
00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:01.139
Yeah, I mean, this is probably his most evil thing.

520
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:03.119
Okay, now...

521
00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:04.139
And he does...

522
00:36:04.139 --> 00:36:09.239
I do like the fact that he gets a bit jowly, you know, like his face is different.

523
00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:09.840
Is it?

524
00:36:09.900 --> 00:36:13.800
Well, it's partly the teeth, but it is his performance as well, I think, you know.

525
00:36:13.860 --> 00:36:19.500
He's he's a little sort of desperate with the hands and it's all kind of inwards.

526
00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:20.880
It's it's good.

527
00:36:20.940 --> 00:36:21.420
Yeah.

528
00:36:21.420 --> 00:36:21.840
Yeah.

529
00:36:21.900 --> 00:36:24.300
I mean, it is it's Jekyll and Hyde, isn't it?

530
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:25.679
It is just Jekyll and Hyde.

531
00:36:25.800 --> 00:36:28.199
Theyve just ripped that off and said, oh, I would...

532
00:36:28.260 --> 00:36:30.599
But to do that, and for me to say it's not over the top.

533
00:36:30.659 --> 00:36:32.340
That's quite impressive, isn it?

534
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:34.139
Well, it is a bit over the time.

535
00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:35.159
Look at him.

536
00:36:35.219 --> 00:36:36.179
How are we feeling?

537
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:41.699
Sort of shaking his hands and like, yeah, and twitching and stuff.

538
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:45.780
Yeah.

539
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:52.079
I also like too, that he hates the idea of the doctor.

540
00:36:52.860 --> 00:37:14.639
You know, he reacts to being called doctor and he dislikes the fact that he's our half, is the, he's a doctor because he, you know, because he thinks that um, violence and and things are, uh, more fundamental than cooperation and caring.

541
00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:17.579
And when Kes gives the speech at the end.

542
00:37:17.639 --> 00:37:38.579
It's about, and it's a bit of a cheesy, shitty speech, but it's about how even at a cellular level we're a colony of things that cooperate, like cells and organs all work together to produce an organism, and that's more fundamental than the violence that he wants to perpetrate.

543
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:40.199
So again, it's the doctor thing.

544
00:37:40.260 --> 00:37:42.960
It's the idea that he spends his time serving people.

545
00:37:43.019 --> 00:37:45.119
Those contact lenses look great.

546
00:37:45.780 --> 00:37:50.340
I just saw him run his finger along her leg there as well.

547
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:52.199
So maybe there's a bit more of that than I thought.

548
00:37:52.260 --> 00:37:53.219
Yeah.

549
00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:56.699
So they were Picardo's idea, I think.

550
00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:58.679
What, the contact?

551
00:37:58.739 --> 00:37:59.699
The contact lenses?

552
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:00.000
Yeah.

553
00:38:00.059 --> 00:38:01.079
Yeah.

554
00:38:01.500 --> 00:38:06.599
I don't think I mean, they do look good, but his performance is enough to sell.

555
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:09.119
Yeah. you know?

556
00:38:09.179 --> 00:38:18.719
But I just think making him like it, yes, his performance could do it, but just making him physically weirder because that's the Jacqueline Hyde thing.

557
00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:27.000
It's not that just, you know, Dr. Jekyll's in a bad mood sometimes it is he transforms into a monster and here they do it.

558
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:29.099
Look at those contact lenses.

559
00:38:29.159 --> 00:38:30.000
They're amazing.

560
00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:37.079
Like what you were just saying there about sort of the nature of evil and what you're rejecting now.

561
00:38:37.139 --> 00:38:41.280
I think it kind of tentatively touches on that here, but doesn't really explore it.

562
00:38:41.340 --> 00:38:51.480
Do you remember when we watched the swarm earlier in the season and it was doing the dementia storyline and it tentatively touched that, but it didn't really explore it.

563
00:38:51.539 --> 00:38:53.280
You know, like...

564
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:55.679
But I think they can.

565
00:38:55.739 --> 00:39:03.599
They can, like, we did the visitor the other day and they explored grief in 45 minutes in a very profound way. can do it.

566
00:39:03.659 --> 00:39:08.280
Yeah, and they're not, they're not really doing it here.

567
00:39:08.340 --> 00:39:16.440
Like it is sort of window dressing, but again, I think it is something to do with with a genre, with a sort of Gothic horror genre.

568
00:39:16.739 --> 00:39:23.039
You know, because I mean, I haven't read Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, and maybe I should.

569
00:39:23.099 --> 00:39:29.099
And I'd forgotten until I was reading up on it that it's by Robert Louis Stevenson because of course it is.

570
00:39:29.099 --> 00:39:30.239
Oh, what's happening?

571
00:39:30.300 --> 00:39:32.340
This scene I really liked.

572
00:39:32.340 --> 00:39:34.980
Where nobody notices.

573
00:39:34.980 --> 00:39:37.739
The way he's practically... he's hunched.

574
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:39.000
He's hunched over.

575
00:39:39.059 --> 00:39:41.340
He's like, you know, round shouldered.

576
00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:43.079
He looks really pissed off.

577
00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:49.260
She's so obsessed with whatever is on that pad that she doesn't even notice bizarre way that he's behaving.

578
00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:51.059
Yeah, she's just dumb.

579
00:39:51.059 --> 00:39:52.500
He's just...

580
00:39:52.500 --> 00:39:57.420
The turbo lift next to her, given her this like evil side eye.

581
00:39:57.480 --> 00:39:59.280
That's kind of creepy, you know?

582
00:39:59.340 --> 00:40:00.659
Yeah, yeah.

583
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:14.519
But then who, like, I actually think, um, uh, doesn't Robert Duncan McNeil come on board the turbo lift, but he's contractual obligated scene, and I actually think he's pretty funny.

584
00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:27.000
And what's funny about it, I think, is, you know, that that Picardo's nearly a slavering monster at this moment, and he's just... nobody notices.

585
00:40:27.059 --> 00:40:28.980
No, because he is such an asshole normally.

586
00:40:29.099 --> 00:40:38.820
Well, that's it because he's basically sort of kind of an obnoxious asshole and that's how that's how Tom reads it.

587
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:42.300
I think this is exactly how you should script on Paris as well.

588
00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:44.579
Basically give him 3 lines in an episode, you know?

589
00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:48.539
Come in, acknowledge somebody, realise he's been insulted, walk out.

590
00:40:48.599 --> 00:40:50.159
Yeah, even the walk.

591
00:40:50.219 --> 00:40:50.880
Look at the walk.

592
00:40:50.940 --> 00:40:55.440
Like the way that Mr. Hyde Walks is pretty cool.

593
00:40:55.500 --> 00:40:57.539
Well, because the doctor's so clipped, isn't he?

594
00:40:57.599 --> 00:40:58.320
The way he walks.

595
00:40:58.380 --> 00:40:59.039
He's so precise.

596
00:40:59.099 --> 00:41:05.519
But he sort of hunched over and he's, it's really, he's a bit of a kind of scary bully.

597
00:41:05.579 --> 00:41:12.179
I wish to retract my statement from last week then saying that Robert Picardo gives a bad performance in this episode.

598
00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:13.800
No, I don't think he does.

599
00:41:13.860 --> 00:41:14.519
I think he's good.

600
00:41:14.579 --> 00:41:16.739
No, that's what I'm saying. taking it back.

601
00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:17.760
Yeah, good.

602
00:41:17.820 --> 00:41:18.179
Yeah.

603
00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:19.559
So what's that game again?

604
00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:20.699
Calto, is it?

605
00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:22.800
So it's like comedes.

606
00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:27.000
They're fucking obsessed with counts having Series 3. one episode it's not in.

607
00:41:27.719 --> 00:41:29.699
It's not that great.

608
00:41:29.699 --> 00:41:35.760
There's that episode where Harry Kim and Tom Tuvok are both fighting over the same...

609
00:41:35.820 --> 00:41:37.199
Holodeck character.

610
00:41:37.260 --> 00:41:39.000
Yes, yeah, that's right.

611
00:41:39.059 --> 00:41:42.179
They're both playing Calto to try and sort of one-up each other, you know?

612
00:41:42.659 --> 00:41:43.980
Yeah.

613
00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:46.199
Well, I don't think it's as good as Strategyma.

614
00:41:48.900 --> 00:41:53.280
We had that scene at the beginning, which showed a bit of tension between the 2 alien characters.

615
00:41:53.340 --> 00:41:56.639
So now he's the chief suspect has done pushed him over the ravine.

616
00:41:56.699 --> 00:42:00.719
Yeah, but we don't, well, we've seen the doctor threatening him, haven't we?

617
00:42:00.780 --> 00:42:05.760
So we don't, you know, like, this scene is entirely pointless.

618
00:42:05.820 --> 00:42:09.239
It's just here to show that Chewbok is in fact investigating this mystery.

619
00:42:09.300 --> 00:42:13.920
Oh, look, and here's Chakotay with his lines for the week, his 3 lines.

620
00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:18.539
I think he only has one actually, you know.

621
00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:23.519
He's given it his all, though.

622
00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:24.300
That's it.

623
00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:25.800
He's gone, too, Bobby.

624
00:42:25.860 --> 00:42:26.880
See you next week.

625
00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:29.820
We should like this more, really.

626
00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:32.400
We're only focussing on the main Robert, aren't we?

627
00:42:32.460 --> 00:42:33.360
Yeah exactly.

628
00:42:33.420 --> 00:42:34.559
The good Robert.

629
00:42:35.639 --> 00:42:37.860
It's so sad.

630
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:40.559
Kes is about to discover Balanat Torres paralysed.

631
00:42:40.619 --> 00:42:41.460
Yeah.

632
00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:44.639
I mean, we cut away, but nothing terrible happens to her, right?

633
00:42:44.699 --> 00:42:45.960
No, yeah, yeah.

634
00:42:46.019 --> 00:42:47.400
No, nothing terrible.

635
00:42:47.460 --> 00:42:49.320
This is still 90s true.

636
00:42:49.380 --> 00:43:03.480
You know, that's that saying that, you know, like there are more, uh, there are more CEOs of major companies called John than there are female CEOs.

637
00:43:03.539 --> 00:43:08.400
And here it's like there's as many people called Robert in the cast as there are women.

638
00:43:09.539 --> 00:43:12.960
We're talking over this grotesque scene.

639
00:43:13.019 --> 00:43:15.059
It's not grotesque.

640
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:18.960
So, wait, what has he done to Lord Byron?

641
00:43:19.019 --> 00:43:28.019
So you've got you've got Gandhi's head, oh, look, Lord Byron's head is full of... is spinning, which I think is hilarious.

642
00:43:28.139 --> 00:43:30.000
Archimedes or whoever the fuck it is.

643
00:43:30.059 --> 00:43:32.039
Byron's head bulging?

644
00:43:32.099 --> 00:43:33.239
He's in half.

645
00:43:33.300 --> 00:43:36.000
Um, a hello case.

646
00:43:36.059 --> 00:43:45.000
Well, in the original script, I was just planning to dissect you while lots of other youths stood around in the holodeck, but Manosky said we weren't going to do that.

647
00:43:45.059 --> 00:43:48.659
I feel like Byron's, you know, entrail should be.

648
00:43:48.659 --> 00:43:51.059
Yeah, well, they're not going to do that, are they?

649
00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:59.159
But I do think that the half, you know, that they've split the Greek philosopher in half and he's literally hollow.

650
00:43:59.219 --> 00:44:01.079
Like there's nothing inside him.

651
00:44:01.139 --> 00:44:03.179
There's just his whatever he's wearing.

652
00:44:03.239 --> 00:44:04.320
I think that's pretty cool.

653
00:44:04.380 --> 00:44:10.079
But like, if they're going to do horror, and this is sort of trying to be a horror.

654
00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:10.920
Yeah.

655
00:44:10.980 --> 00:44:13.980
Well, then should they bother if they can't make it horrific?

656
00:44:14.039 --> 00:44:19.980
Well, I think they probably could, but they're not skilled enough to work around what they have.

657
00:44:20.039 --> 00:44:23.219
I think there's a few moments in Knight is Trek where they succeed.

658
00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:24.840
There's not many, but there's a few.

659
00:44:24.840 --> 00:44:31.260
There's a wonderful bit in Empoc Nor where it's, which is essentially quite camp and silly.

660
00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:33.659
But it's lit brilliantly.

661
00:44:33.719 --> 00:44:37.260
It kind of lit by Mike Vajar is a great director.

662
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:42.539
And there's a sequence where there's a bowling kid who's like looking at something.

663
00:44:42.539 --> 00:44:50.820
And suddenly this Kardashian comes smashing through glass and grabs him by the neck and it's really scary for like a half a second.

664
00:44:50.880 --> 00:45:04.079
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, like when discovering came back for series one, it was much more prepared to do things that weren't PG.

665
00:45:04.139 --> 00:45:11.880
And so you did have, you know, Tory from Battlestar Galactica getting her guts ripped out by a tardigrade.

666
00:45:11.940 --> 00:45:12.960
And there's that whole scene.

667
00:45:13.019 --> 00:45:20.699
There's that whole episode where they're wandering around Discovery sistership and being hunted by the Tardigrade.

668
00:45:20.820 --> 00:45:23.400
I must have said this before, maybe when we were talking before.

669
00:45:23.460 --> 00:45:36.599
I thought there was an episode of Enterprise, and I know you can disagree with this, because you watched it, and I don't think you liked it, where they're on a Vulcan ship, and they're all like psychotic, and it's kind of done in this very sort of hallucinogenic way.

670
00:45:36.659 --> 00:45:38.400
So you're never quite sure.

671
00:45:38.460 --> 00:45:40.860
It's a bit walking dead, isn't it, where they're all zombies?

672
00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:43.079
Yeah, I thought it was a little bit shit.

673
00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:46.980
And I thought they kind of pushed it as far as they were willing to go there.

674
00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:48.119
Yeah.

675
00:45:48.239 --> 00:45:52.800
Yeah, I mean, episode 9 was it?

676
00:45:52.860 --> 00:45:59.639
of Strange New Worlds was actually properly scary in a sort of fairly trad alien's way.

677
00:45:59.699 --> 00:46:13.860
And it, you know, so modern Star Trek can do scary, but it's got more things that it can do, where here we're basically in sort of well lit sets, just talking, and we've got to try and create something scary out of that.

678
00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:22.860
Well, basically, I think bourbon trek at its height, TNG, uh, DS9 Voyager, it's all going to be down to the performance, isn't it?

679
00:46:22.920 --> 00:46:27.539
It's not going to be down to, you know, whether they're selling it through atmosphere and things like that.

680
00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:30.300
So like Tim Ross in...

681
00:46:30.300 --> 00:46:32.099
Uh, Mild.

682
00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:34.739
That's very scary because he's really intense.

683
00:46:34.860 --> 00:46:41.460
Do you know what I think actually is has the scariest modes in Star Trek the Next Generation?

684
00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:43.800
Go on.

685
00:46:43.860 --> 00:46:45.000
Genesis.

686
00:46:45.900 --> 00:46:48.480
I think I don't think you're wrong actually.

687
00:46:48.539 --> 00:46:50.280
Yeah, are you talking about the spider?

688
00:46:50.340 --> 00:46:51.000
Yeah, yeah.

689
00:46:51.059 --> 00:46:57.599
No, but also wharf, like when wharf opens his mouth and just suddenly spits the poison into Beverly's face and she screams.

690
00:46:57.719 --> 00:46:59.519
Yeah, she screams.

691
00:46:59.579 --> 00:47:00.360
Yeah, yeah.

692
00:47:00.420 --> 00:47:05.519
And there's jump scarce and stuff in that. directed by Gaze McFad in that episode.

693
00:47:05.579 --> 00:47:07.260
It's terrible.

694
00:47:08.219 --> 00:47:11.340
I mean, there's a sequence where they go to the bridge, right?

695
00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:20.940
And it's in the half dark and the person's at the console and their whole stomach's torn out and the camera just very quickly goes past it.

696
00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:22.199
Yeah.

697
00:47:22.500 --> 00:47:23.880
Yeah.

698
00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:30.719
I think Brandon Bragger did like a bit of body horror and he pushed it as far as they probably were willing to let him.

699
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:34.139
Yeah, but yeah, yeah.

700
00:47:34.199 --> 00:48:02.340
But they, I mean, this, this is really funny in the way that it's written like a Gothic horror, which I think really requires, I think the story to work on any level requires him to plummet off the ravine with her to their deaths, you know, and that's a, you know, melodramatic and grotesque and operatic kind of conclusion, which is the sort of aesthetic that we'd kind of be going for.

701
00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:11.579
And I do think that it's absolutely written that the fact that this is just a Star Trek episode means that we get to escape that conclusion.

702
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:16.079
It's not that anyone outwits anyone or, you know, anyone's persuaded or anything.

703
00:48:16.139 --> 00:48:18.659
It's just like, we have a teleport.

704
00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:21.719
What is it, a transporter, and this is Star Trek.

705
00:48:21.780 --> 00:48:24.360
And so Star Trek wins the day over the Gothic horror.

706
00:48:24.420 --> 00:48:27.119
But like, this isn't him.

707
00:48:27.179 --> 00:48:33.059
This is him, the character we know of all these extra bits from here just for the purposes of this episode.

708
00:48:33.119 --> 00:48:34.679
So he doesn't learn anything.

709
00:48:34.739 --> 00:48:36.179
We don't we're not going on a journey.

710
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:38.699
We're not he's not developing in any way.

711
00:48:38.760 --> 00:48:40.679
It's like, what does he learn from this?

712
00:48:40.739 --> 00:48:44.579
Okay, don't splice other people's personalities into yours.

713
00:48:44.639 --> 00:48:46.980
Well, great, what a moral.

714
00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:48.900
I promise I won't do that, you know.

715
00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:51.840
Well, I think the only person who learns anything.

716
00:48:51.900 --> 00:48:52.739
Look at Kes.

717
00:48:52.860 --> 00:49:16.920
So this is the, this is the conversation I was talking about before where he says that violence and selfishness and and all of those things are fundamental, that they're more fundamental than good, and the good is essentially illusory, and what, um, you know, that what he's discovered, what he's learned from all of these great historical figures from the past is that evil is fundamental.

718
00:49:16.980 --> 00:49:20.460
And so that's the conversation that we're having.

719
00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:29.099
This is a conversation that is, you know, some in some directions, you know, gesturing towards what Star Trek's about.

720
00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:30.300
I don't know.

721
00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:34.920
And that's, that's... mildly, I think.

722
00:49:35.039 --> 00:49:37.320
I still don't think that's what this episode is about.

723
00:49:37.380 --> 00:49:38.639
They're touching on it.

724
00:49:38.699 --> 00:49:42.719
They're talking about it, but it's not really part of the story, is it?

725
00:49:42.780 --> 00:49:59.219
No, but it's sort of gesturing towards that idea that the Gothic is about sort of, you know, kind of primal drives and and over the top emotions and things like that.

726
00:49:59.340 --> 00:50:10.019
The, the, you know, that the windswept ravine and stuff is, is a venue that reflects, you know, what human beings are like or something.

727
00:50:10.079 --> 00:50:12.179
I'm sort of struggling to express this.

728
00:50:12.239 --> 00:50:18.239
And so I think it is part of the Gothic horror idea that Hyde isn't just a personality.

729
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:25.260
He's a discovery about how morality works and he's wrong in case.

730
00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:26.400
I mean, what we'll say demonstrates that.

731
00:50:26.460 --> 00:50:29.340
They're trying to, they're trying to add a little bit of substance.

732
00:50:29.639 --> 00:50:35.280
Like we've done episodes of on top of Star Trek Project, about dramatis persona, where there's just been nothing at all.

733
00:50:35.340 --> 00:50:37.199
What is this about?

734
00:50:37.260 --> 00:50:37.980
What is the theme?

735
00:50:38.039 --> 00:50:39.179
What are they trying to say?

736
00:50:39.239 --> 00:50:41.460
What are the characters learning?

737
00:50:41.519 --> 00:50:43.920
At least they're...

738
00:50:43.980 --> 00:51:00.659
Yeah, I mean, this isn't much like Jekyll and Hyde, from what I know of how that plays out, but what we do is we make a decision to let's let Bob be evil this week.

739
00:51:00.659 --> 00:51:05.340
And, you know, we kind of go, how about we do Jekyll and Hyde?

740
00:51:05.400 --> 00:51:12.360
And so then they bring in that whole kind of Gothic thing, which I think that's interesting.

741
00:51:12.420 --> 00:51:20.639
That at least is an attempt to do something a little bit interesting and to have everything in the episode working in the same direction.

742
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:33.599
But like in Living Witness, where they're doing, you know, they're actually exploring what is the impact if Voyager is misremembered as this evil crew on this society?

743
00:51:33.659 --> 00:51:35.579
And that's really interesting.

744
00:51:35.639 --> 00:51:51.840
But also that episode is also about how important is the sort of historic oppression of a group of people, how much should we pay attention to that when we work out how to treat them now.

745
00:51:51.900 --> 00:51:58.380
And that's an absolutely living issue, you know, in Australia in America.

746
00:51:58.440 --> 00:52:04.619
Um, you know, and so it's got something really properly interesting to say.

747
00:52:04.860 --> 00:52:08.340
This, I think, is sort of aesthetic.

748
00:52:08.340 --> 00:52:11.519
And because it's Star Trek and Star Trek generally looks...

749
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:12.780
Star Trek looks the same.

750
00:52:12.840 --> 00:52:14.519
Walk it across the top of the ravine.

751
00:52:14.579 --> 00:52:17.099
Oh, look it, but looking down off the ravine.

752
00:52:17.159 --> 00:52:17.820
That's pretty great.

753
00:52:17.880 --> 00:52:19.139
Look at that.

754
00:52:19.139 --> 00:52:20.699
Look at that photograph of a river down there.

755
00:52:20.820 --> 00:52:21.480
Yeah, exactly.

756
00:52:21.480 --> 00:52:26.760
Did you see those polystarian rocks bounce away there as they phase at the wall?

757
00:52:27.119 --> 00:52:29.760
Very impressive, I must say.

758
00:52:29.820 --> 00:52:32.039
I feel as if I'm watching an episode of Discovery right now.

759
00:52:32.099 --> 00:52:34.320
Yeah, well, here's the other Robert with a gun.

760
00:52:34.380 --> 00:52:40.380
You see, you said he just had one line, but other Robert's here and he's doing something.

761
00:52:40.440 --> 00:52:41.760
He's got 5 lines.

762
00:52:41.820 --> 00:52:43.199
This is a sway for him.

763
00:52:43.260 --> 00:52:43.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

764
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:47.579
Yeah, so this is Cass, right?

765
00:52:47.639 --> 00:52:50.159
I remember screaming at the TV, right?

766
00:52:50.219 --> 00:52:51.000
when I 1st watched this.

767
00:52:51.059 --> 00:52:52.679
Well, you just shove her off already.

768
00:52:52.739 --> 00:53:12.599
No, but here, here she's saying that all of his behaviour isn't due to some philosophical conclusion that he's reached, evil isn't a, you know, like isn't a force.

769
00:53:12.659 --> 00:53:15.840
It's just him being an asshole in order to protect her.

770
00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:23.159
It's actually a fundamentally good emotion that has been perverted and has caused this violence.

771
00:53:23.219 --> 00:53:27.300
And it's the good in him, that is prompting his behaviour.

772
00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:29.039
But then we get that.

773
00:53:29.039 --> 00:53:31.920
And he nearly wins the argument.

774
00:53:31.980 --> 00:53:36.179
And I want to know why they don't just drop onto the transporter.

775
00:53:36.239 --> 00:53:38.699
Like, they do a little bit of a kind of thing.

776
00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:39.420
That's a good point.

777
00:53:41.039 --> 00:53:43.980
The inertial things have cut in.

778
00:53:44.039 --> 00:53:47.460
Oh, here's Harry giving a line too, which is kind of delightful.

779
00:53:47.519 --> 00:53:48.119
Look at that.

780
00:53:49.619 --> 00:53:54.300
I could have just had that transporter woman was doing such good work earlier, had they?

781
00:53:54.300 --> 00:53:55.440
didn't Harry Kim at all?

782
00:53:55.500 --> 00:53:57.300
No, but he's pretty.

783
00:53:57.360 --> 00:53:58.079
It's nice to see him.

784
00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:05.159
It's so interesting because Robert Picardo is in those same clothes there when he materialises, but the performance is just so different, isn't it?

785
00:54:05.219 --> 00:54:06.179
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

786
00:54:06.239 --> 00:54:08.519
I just love the doctor.

787
00:54:08.579 --> 00:54:09.719
I mean, I think this is so shit.

788
00:54:09.780 --> 00:54:12.840
We're 2 minutes from the end and he just sort of goes, oh, well, I won't do that again.

789
00:54:12.900 --> 00:54:14.639
Yes, I've switched all those off.

790
00:54:15.300 --> 00:54:19.980
Until the next time he decides to, because do you remember, I don't know if you recall.

791
00:54:20.039 --> 00:54:24.239
It was him trying to better himself in the dementia episode as well.

792
00:54:24.300 --> 00:54:27.059
Every time he does this, it always goes horribly wrong.

793
00:54:27.119 --> 00:54:31.320
It always leads to a whole episode of Voyager and nobody wants that.

794
00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:35.820
Although it does have that wonderful scene of him with the opera diva.

795
00:54:35.880 --> 00:54:36.300
Do you remember?

796
00:54:38.519 --> 00:54:40.199
Oh, great.

797
00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:45.119
Oh, look, she loves the doctor.

798
00:54:45.179 --> 00:54:46.260
Bless her.

799
00:54:46.980 --> 00:54:52.739
Which makes it very bizarre when she comes back in fury in series 6 and tries to kill everybody.

800
00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:53.880
Yeah, yeah.

801
00:54:53.940 --> 00:54:55.199
Stupid.

802
00:54:55.260 --> 00:54:58.139
Also written by Brandon Bragger, of course.

803
00:54:58.199 --> 00:55:02.820
And and then she just decides to stay why?

804
00:55:02.880 --> 00:55:04.139
Because.

805
00:55:05.460 --> 00:55:07.320
She's had her fun.

806
00:55:07.380 --> 00:55:08.820
Well, maybe.

807
00:55:08.820 --> 00:55:12.840
The doctor has proven just how much he cares for her. don't know.

808
00:55:12.900 --> 00:55:15.059
I don't think the episode's coming to any great conclusion.

809
00:55:15.119 --> 00:55:17.460
I don't think it is either, and that's probably...

810
00:55:17.579 --> 00:55:18.599
You realise what's happened?

811
00:55:18.659 --> 00:55:20.639
You what's happened, don't you?

812
00:55:20.699 --> 00:55:23.820
45 minutes have passed so we can just forget about this now.

813
00:55:23.880 --> 00:55:24.960
Well, essentially.

814
00:55:25.019 --> 00:55:33.420
And then this is a bit shit where he just recites the Hippocratic oath as he walks around the table looking very actively there, Bob.

815
00:55:37.500 --> 00:55:39.719
Yeah, you can wash it a bit.

816
00:55:39.780 --> 00:55:40.559
Patrick Stewart.

817
00:55:40.619 --> 00:55:41.519
Really?

818
00:55:41.519 --> 00:55:45.000
And then it ended.

819
00:55:45.059 --> 00:55:46.199
Yeah, yeah.

820
00:55:46.260 --> 00:55:50.699
And I'll tell you what, the best part of that was, is we don't have to do this episode again.

821
00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:51.960
No, that's true.

822
00:55:51.960 --> 00:55:57.780
And will you notice that they've spelt Gandhi's name wrong in the club?

823
00:55:57.840 --> 00:55:58.440
No.

824
00:55:58.440 --> 00:55:59.340
Oh, no.

825
00:56:02.039 --> 00:56:03.059
That's embarrassing.

826
00:56:03.059 --> 00:56:04.260
Oh wow.

827
00:56:04.320 --> 00:56:06.239
I wonder if it's wrong all through the script.

828
00:56:06.300 --> 00:56:07.260
I bet you it is.

829
00:56:08.099 --> 00:56:10.380
No, no, don't get me wrong.

830
00:56:10.440 --> 00:56:17.519
I think you did a very game attempt there at giving that a little bit of weight, a little bit of weight.

831
00:56:18.239 --> 00:56:20.280
I don't think it's a disaster.

832
00:56:20.340 --> 00:56:23.940
I feel like I need to take you to task at this point, okay?

833
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:28.079
Because like, you can be a bit contrarian at times on this podcast.

834
00:56:28.079 --> 00:56:32.159
Sometimes, staying at the scene of AR 558 is terrible.

835
00:56:32.219 --> 00:56:35.219
And in the pale moonlight, it's not as good as people say.

836
00:56:36.179 --> 00:56:37.920
96 Bay.

837
00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:39.960
It's actually not bad. work of genius.

838
00:56:40.019 --> 00:56:42.539
Well, I didn't say that, but it's pretty good.

839
00:56:43.079 --> 00:56:56.820
You look, I I can see how Doc Oho would have been kind of worn down by making his way through series 3 if it's all like this.

840
00:56:56.880 --> 00:57:03.659
It's all kind of mildly diverting high concept stuff that has sort of been done before.

841
00:57:03.719 --> 00:57:07.079
I think that's kind of what we're doing, isn't it, at this point?

842
00:57:07.139 --> 00:57:13.380
And when Voyager is good, it leans into the premise and does interesting things.

843
00:57:13.380 --> 00:57:18.480
And it does do that, I think, more often than maybe we give it credit for.

844
00:57:19.079 --> 00:57:25.079
I think if I went back and watched season 3 now, I would probably see more of worth in it.

845
00:57:25.139 --> 00:57:37.500
Like, I've certainly gone back and watched episodes like sacred ground, the one where Janeway goes through those bizarre rituals on that planet and it's religion versus science. remember that one?

846
00:57:37.559 --> 00:57:42.059
And she's all science and she doesn't believe in it.

847
00:57:42.059 --> 00:57:44.579
And then she goes on this weird spiritual experience.

848
00:57:44.579 --> 00:57:52.500
And at the end, they're all talking tetanobabble and the camera just lingers on her and you know she's had a bit of an epiphany.

849
00:57:52.559 --> 00:57:56.280
But when I 1st watched it back in the day. along with all the others.

850
00:57:56.340 --> 00:57:59.340
I was just like, oh, this is another tedious.

851
00:57:59.400 --> 00:58:01.619
So I think if I went back and watched it, I would see a lot more.

852
00:58:01.679 --> 00:58:03.659
There's some things in there like future's end.

853
00:58:03.719 --> 00:58:07.860
Remember, unity, distant origin.

854
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:11.760
There are some good episodes in there, but on the whole, it's a bit flat.

855
00:58:11.820 --> 00:58:17.699
I think it is probably the worst example for me of just knocking them out for a year.

856
00:58:24.900 --> 00:58:30.119
Alright, it's time for us to decide what we're going to watch next time.

857
00:58:30.179 --> 00:58:42.840
And in honour of the journey that you've recently been taking Joe, which is catching up on lower decks, I think that we should choose a lower decks episode.

858
00:58:42.900 --> 00:58:43.860
Oh, great.

859
00:58:43.980 --> 00:58:49.559
Well, I can finally talk about it with a bit of detail, you know, now I'm in the loop.

860
00:58:49.619 --> 00:58:51.059
It's so fun.

861
00:58:51.119 --> 00:58:58.800
You know, like, I think that the Voyager that we just watched aims to be kind of agreeable and watchable and to pass the time.

862
00:58:58.860 --> 00:59:00.840
I think it probably does do that.

863
00:59:00.900 --> 00:59:09.119
And I think this is really watchable and really agreeable but it has the added benefit of actually being good.

864
00:59:09.179 --> 00:59:10.679
And so...

865
00:59:10.679 --> 00:59:18.480
I think I think lower decks actually shows up a lot of the rest of Star Trek by being so consistently good.

866
00:59:18.539 --> 00:59:21.300
It's not always great, but it's always good.

867
00:59:21.659 --> 00:59:28.500
I can't think of a terrible episode, whereas, you know, you give me any other Star Trek show and I'll pull 10 out of a hat.

868
00:59:28.619 --> 00:59:30.360
That's right That's right.

869
00:59:30.420 --> 00:59:31.800
No, I think it's really fun.

870
00:59:31.860 --> 00:59:33.059
So I'm looking forward to this.

871
00:59:33.119 --> 00:59:38.099
There's not one member of the cast that I don't like, either, either.

872
00:59:38.159 --> 00:59:40.619
Both the characters and the actors.

873
00:59:40.739 --> 00:59:41.460
Yeah.

874
00:59:41.460 --> 00:59:43.199
The actors do brilliant work.

875
00:59:43.260 --> 00:59:46.619
All the main characters are fun and likeable.

876
00:59:46.679 --> 00:59:49.199
Even when they behave in appalling ways.

877
00:59:49.260 --> 00:59:51.239
Yeah, well, that's the cartoon.

878
00:59:51.239 --> 00:59:52.440
Do you know my new favourite is?

879
00:59:52.500 --> 00:59:53.219
I love shacks.

880
00:59:53.280 --> 00:59:54.719
It's great.

881
00:59:54.780 --> 01:00:03.599
And the episode where he got to, the warp core was so funny when he was running through the corridors going, this is my moment.

882
01:00:03.659 --> 01:00:05.039
Thank you, thank you.

883
01:00:06.119 --> 01:00:08.099
She goes, what is it?

884
01:00:08.219 --> 01:00:10.800
He's always trying to eject the war call.

885
01:00:10.860 --> 01:00:11.760
No, wait.

886
01:00:11.820 --> 01:00:13.500
That's a great idea.

887
01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:16.800
So much fun.

888
01:00:16.860 --> 01:00:18.239
All right.

889
01:00:18.300 --> 01:00:18.840
Okay.

890
01:00:18.900 --> 01:00:19.920
I've got it selected.

891
01:00:19.980 --> 01:00:25.679
I'm going to press the button and oh, we've actually rolled this before.

892
01:00:25.739 --> 01:00:29.639
Your random Star Trek Lower Decks episode is room for growth.

893
01:00:30.179 --> 01:00:32.699
Season 3, episode 4.

894
01:00:32.940 --> 01:00:42.960
So it's the one where the engineering crew are overworked and they go to the spa, and then there's a B plot, and I can't remember what it is.

895
01:00:43.619 --> 01:00:47.400
I want you to bring up an embarrassment of duplers.

896
01:00:48.179 --> 01:00:50.039
Sublimely good.

897
01:00:50.099 --> 01:00:51.059
So great.

898
01:00:51.179 --> 01:00:52.260
All right, here goes.

899
01:00:52.440 --> 01:00:55.980
Cupid's errant arrow, which we've already done.

900
01:00:56.099 --> 01:00:57.900
Episode 40.

901
01:00:58.079 --> 01:01:00.960
The least dangerous game.

902
01:01:01.019 --> 01:01:03.420
Season 3, episode two.

903
01:01:03.480 --> 01:01:08.880
I think it might be the one where Boimler decides to be bold Boimler.

904
01:01:08.940 --> 01:01:10.920
He decides to accept lots of opportunity.

905
01:01:10.980 --> 01:01:13.079
Oh, that's terrific.

906
01:01:13.139 --> 01:01:14.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

907
01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:17.639
And he ends up being hunted through the shit.

908
01:01:19.320 --> 01:01:21.300
It's really funny.

909
01:01:21.360 --> 01:01:28.440
Oh, and it's the one that has the rise thing happening as the other plot, isn't it?

910
01:01:28.559 --> 01:01:34.500
The other plot is that on the planet Delane and there's a, what do we call it?

911
01:01:34.559 --> 01:01:39.239
Like a maglev lift and like a tether, and that is a pretty good one.

912
01:01:39.300 --> 01:01:40.440
That's great.

913
01:01:40.500 --> 01:01:41.280
Let's do that.

914
01:01:41.340 --> 01:01:43.440
And it'd be nice to do one in the latest season as well.

915
01:01:43.500 --> 01:01:44.280
Yeah.

916
01:01:44.340 --> 01:01:44.880
Yeah.

917
01:01:44.940 --> 01:01:45.659
All right.

918
01:01:45.659 --> 01:01:51.719
The thing with Lower Dex is, it's, it's, what I love is they are short episodes.

919
01:01:51.780 --> 01:01:54.119
So they never outstay their welcome.

920
01:01:54.179 --> 01:01:59.880
But that's bad for us. because we only get 20 minutes to talk about.

921
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:07.739
Well, normally we come in at about sort of 35 to 40 minutes on a lower decks episode.

922
01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:09.119
So we'll have things to talk about.

923
01:02:09.179 --> 01:02:11.940
But it's a really enjoyable episode.

924
01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:18.119
So that is series three, episode two. the least dangerous game. can't wait.

925
01:02:27.900 --> 01:02:33.300
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley.

926
01:02:33.360 --> 01:02:39.420
We're online at untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.

927
01:02:39.480 --> 01:02:43.980
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Sisrin, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

928
01:02:44.039 --> 01:02:49.860
This episode was recorded on the 16th of January 2023 and released on the 20th of January.

929
01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:54.840
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Lower Decks, the least dangerous game.

930
01:04:15.900 --> 01:04:26.340
You know, if you, like, like with aspirin, if we crumble it up and put it on the side of where the tooth is, right, actually helps, like it's local.

931
01:04:26.400 --> 01:04:27.960
Yeah, I'll try that actually.

932
01:04:27.960 --> 01:04:37.920
Because it's, um, that's a like millennia old trick because it's Willow, Salicylic acid.

933
01:04:37.980 --> 01:04:42.059
It comes from the willow bark and so that people have been using that for teeth for age.

934
01:04:42.119 --> 01:04:47.159
Well, I've never heard of aspirin before, aspirin.

935
01:04:47.219 --> 01:04:50.340
And I went to school almost an hour a week.

936
01:04:51.179 --> 01:04:52.860
What's that?

937
01:04:52.920 --> 01:04:54.420
What's that?

938
01:04:54.420 --> 01:04:55.139
The world planet.

939
01:04:56.219 --> 01:04:59.880
Oh, you wouldn't buck it if I wanted to stick leeches all over you.

940
01:05:00.719 --> 01:05:03.300
That's been before.

941
01:05:03.360 --> 01:05:05.400
That's great.

942
01:05:05.460 --> 01:05:13.019
Isn't it great that a kid's show says sitting in the future, you only have to go to school for an hour a week and you become a genius space kid.

943
01:05:13.079 --> 01:05:14.400
That's right So good.

944
01:05:14.579 --> 01:05:16.139
So great.

945
01:05:16.199 --> 01:05:20.159
We did the 3 holes. reading, writing, arithmetic.

946
01:05:20.219 --> 01:05:21.780
My nan used to say that to me.

947
01:05:22.199 --> 01:05:24.840
Yeah, yeah, that's the thing.

948
01:05:24.900 --> 01:05:30.420
I'll be like, well, you weren't educating them well then. arithmetic. arithmetic.

949
01:05:30.480 --> 01:05:31.500
Yeah.

950
01:05:31.559 --> 01:05:35.280
Oh, well, writing isn't really an R either.

951
01:05:35.400 --> 01:05:38.699
Um, punch me or something, that might help.

952
01:05:38.760 --> 01:05:40.440
I should jab it out.

953
01:05:40.500 --> 01:05:44.340
It's literally this tooth, this wisdom tooth is half hanging on.

954
01:05:44.460 --> 01:05:45.719
I just need to have it out.

955
01:05:46.500 --> 01:05:50.639
I had horrible wisdom teeth experiences.

956
01:05:50.699 --> 01:05:52.679
No, I didn't.

957
01:05:52.679 --> 01:05:58.139
They did a root canal and it's clearly gone horribly wrong because it's made the tooth disintegrate.

958
01:05:58.619 --> 01:06:00.780
No, I had them, mum.

959
01:06:01.019 --> 01:06:11.460
Uh, like I either pulled out, but they were so desperate to stay that he was like smashing it up while it was in my jaw and pulling bits of it on.

960
01:06:11.519 --> 01:06:14.340
And I was there for like ages.

961
01:06:14.340 --> 01:06:15.840
So phobic of the dentist.

962
01:06:15.900 --> 01:06:18.059
You need to stop right now.

963
01:06:18.179 --> 01:06:19.920
I'll never go.

964
01:06:21.059 --> 01:06:23.880
Yeah, it was the thing, but it's all gone.

965
01:06:23.940 --> 01:06:31.679
But I sort of lived in terror of it for like 10 years because I knew that at some point, because I had 2 of them done and thought, actually, fuck it, I'm not.

966
01:06:32.400 --> 01:06:39.780
And then at one point I said, put me to sleep, you know, like give me a, like put me out for it and just do it.

967
01:06:39.840 --> 01:06:50.400
And then the dentist said, yeah, no, that tends to be bad because because you're not awake, you end up being kind of a bit beaten up because, do you know what I mean?

968
01:06:50.460 --> 01:06:54.539
you're not resisting and you're not, you know, like, so it tends to be worse.

969
01:06:57.599 --> 01:06:58.559
Yeah.

970
01:06:58.860 --> 01:07:01.320
That was painful as this episode.

971
01:07:01.380 --> 01:07:02.460
I was like, stop now.

972
01:07:02.820 --> 01:07:05.219
I know you'd quite like this.

973
01:07:05.280 --> 01:07:07.260
Well, I thought it was all right.

974
01:07:07.980 --> 01:07:10.860
Anyway, I'll say, I'll say what I think.

975
01:07:13.980 --> 01:07:14.519
Should we do it?

976
01:07:20.579 --> 01:07:22.920
Hey, Joe. Hi.