Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, last week, it was your choice.
So was it your choice or my choice?
I can't remember now.
That's right.
I wanted to choose a middle of the road episode of Star Trek.
That's right.
Just a normal one.
We done some big tent pole episodes and it was time to sort of
plumb the depths of 90s Star Trek mediocrity.
And I think we actually, mission accomplished with this one.
This is Darkling, which is series 3 episode about 18.
It's towards the end of the season.
And it's very simply, you know, the doctor does Jekyll and Hyde
essentially.
Yeah, I've got a feeling because I've said to you a few times on
top of Star Trek Project that I consider season 3 of Star Trek
Voyager to be one of the worst seasons ever.
I think if you watch this through, actually, you'd be far kinder
on this season, it's all kind of light, disposable, fairly amiable
episodes with a few laughs and, you know, like an emphasis on the
ensemble and a lot of hanging around and not doing a lot.
Can I just say to you, right?
Because on my blog.coho reviews, I wrote reviews of every single
90s trek episode and I got to this point in season three, right?
And you had darkling and then rise and then favourite sun back to
back and I termed it the trilogy of terror. 3 duds back to back.
And there's only one other time when that happens.
I also called that the trilogy of terror.
And that's in season 5 when you have, 0 God, it's course oblivion
the fight and there's another one.
I can't remember.
It's another Harry Kim one.
The disease.
That's it.
Oh, God.
That's the 2nd trilogy of terror.
And it's very rare because Nighty Shrek can be inconsistent.
Yeah, but it's rare for them to knock out 3 terrible episodes on
the trot.
I know you're going to be a little kinder on this than me.
I think this is pretty, pretty terrible.
Well, I think it's the issue of low expectations probably.
It's probably the same reason.
You cannot keep using that excuse.
Every time we watch Star Trek Voyager, right?
Well, I actually think that the doctor does an experiment on
himself that turns him into Jekyll and Hyde is a bad idea.
I don't think it's obviously a bad idea.
It's, you know, you're giving the job of one of the best actors in
the cast to do that and you get him to have fun and do something
else.
And by all accounts, he really liked doing this episode.
So I think he's pretty good as the evil version of the doctor who
doesn't really end up with a name.
And I also think what's good about it too, is that they actually
go all in on making it a Gothic novel.
So it's a, it's a sort of gothic horror story.
You know, the doctor kind of delves into the weirdnesses of human
psychology.
There's, you know, these sort of weird extreme emotions, there's
weather, there's, you know, a ravine.
Like if it hadn't been a Star Trek episode, he would have
plummeted off into that ravine with Kes and that would have been
the end and it just the fact that it's Star Trek means that they
get transported onto the ship at the last minute.
So I think that that is actually not obviously a bad idea either.
And I think where it fails is that it's kind of stuff that we've
seen before.
I mean earlier this season.
We had Kess possessed and becoming evil, and I think that's a more
successful episode than this. you think?
It's more fun.
Yeah, she's camping it up. has this insane bisexual dictator.
Yeah.
And it's Jennifer Leanne, who's normally, you know, mousy and
quiet.
She's loving it, jumping over tables, threatening to knock the
woman this side and the man that side.
Oh, great.
Or he's just sort of hunched over and whispering and...
You know, my big objection to this is like, that's not about
anything.
Like, we don't learn anything.
Nobody goes through anything.
It's 45 minutes of Star Trek on sort of, you know, yeah, you're
right.
The Gothic horror.
I don't even think it's that successful or gothic horror.
I thought Sub Rosa did a better job of sort of leaning into the
aesthetic trappings of Gothic horror.
Oh, I mean, this has, you know, down on the planet, I think it
does the aesthetic trappings of Gothic horror, I think.
It has a roaring fire and a ravine and a bit of wind, but...
Yeah, so I think that it is a bit more substantial than that
because what it has is something to say about humanity because the
doctor becomes evil because he investigates or he incorporates
into himself all of these characteristics from great figures from
history.
And what he discovers is that evil is more fundamental and has
more right to exist than good does.
And then Kess replies.
Kess beats him by showing that even he as the evil version of the
doctor, can't really live that way.
And it's not a super profound thing.
But I do think that there's a little bit of moral philosophy in
there, which I thought was kind of interesting, if not hugely
exciting.
Maybe I just wasn't examining it at all. because I was just like
when is this going to be over?
When is he gonna kidnap her and try and kill her?
Um, there is some interesting trivia about this one.
Because apparently it started off as a very different sort of an
episode featuring the doctor being this sort of perverse, sort of
much creepier.
They say on memory alpha.
There was a sequence where he had lots of copies of Kez and he's
behaving in a sort of very pervy, uncomfortable sort of a way.
And Joe Manosky said, look, if you're going to, if you're going to
go down this route with this episode, you can take my name off
it.
I don't want to be a part of it.
And for Joe Manosky to say that, given, you know, he created fan
favourite masks and the Thor and things like that, that's quite
something.
Yeah, I don't know.
I think this is very indicative of season 3 of Star Trek Voyager.
It's probably quite a nice idea.
It's fairly banal in its execution and it passes an hour okay.
That's right.
But you can't have a season of Star Trek like that. of just that.
It's okay.
Well, you know, like it's not a huge disaster like manhunt, for
instance, like it's written and it has a structure and it coheres
around some ideas, you know, but it's pretty forgettable.
I certainly had no memory of it, even though I have seen it
before.
When you rolled Darkling when you rolled Darkling last week, I was
kind of, is there a Voyager episode called Darkling?
So I had pretty thoroughly forgotten it.
Do you recall the other 2 of the trilogy of terror?
Rise and Favourite Sun?
Well, I actually watched Rise Recently because of the story you
told on the podcast about how Jerry Ryan watched it.
After she, like when she was considering the job.
And that is bad, but not completely worthless as well.
I think it has some moments.
Like it's not...
Relentlessly terrible. brilliant.
If they'd have had like 100 times the budget, better actors and
you know, the script had had 3 more passes.
Yeah, yeah.
Tim Rusk gets a big role in it and that rarely happens and you've
got to like that.
So, you know, I think most of the time, you know, there's a germ
of a good idea in every Star Trek episode, even the worst ones, but
you know, it's kind of potluck in 90s trick as to how it's brought
to the screen.
But I mean, it sounds like this is the season where, and we've
talked about this before.
Season one and 2 is very Voyager, and it leans into the premise
and it does things only Voyager could do.
Here.
It's nothing like that.
There's a little bit of stuff at the beginning about how they've
met these new people and their method of turning up to a planet
and interacting with the locals is different from being sent on a
mission by Starfleet or whatever.
But essentially, this could have been in any Star Trek.
They do the queue episode this season.
Q and the Grey, they did the Ferengi episode this season.
They do the, you know, um, an alien delegation comes on the ship
and passes on race memories of terrible Holocaust things that
happened in the past episode.
They do the macrovirus on the shit.
I mean, it's all TNG knockoffs.
Do you remember that one with Jane Boy's like Ripley going around
in a tank top and a big gum?
I mean that's pretty cool. shitty CGI floating monsters.
But there ain't nothing they couldn't have done in TNG.
No.
Until the end where they remember.
Oh yeah, we're in an aboriginal space.
Let's go into Borg space, you know, and then they do scorpion.
But it takes until then.
Like this, this could have been, uh, you know, I don't know, Rich
Barkley could have been playing about with a hologram and creating
an evil hologram made out of, um, I mean, who is it the doctor
uses in this?
Oh, is Byron?
So Lord Byron's there, Gandhi.
I mean, we'll get there and we'll see.
I mean, Gandhi.
Well, we'll get there because I have things to say.
Okay.
Well should we watch it?
I think we probably should.
So I will count us in 5, 4, 3, 2, one, and we're off.
Here we go.
Oh, look at that.
It does look like...
506, 93.2.
No, it looks like a toilet bowl.
I think it looks like a trowel.
You see there you go.
That's a nice shot.
That's a thing.
I swear that's the same shot from Angel one. you know, it seems
one of next year.
That has that building that we see over and over again throughout
the...
Well, actually, every time that Kate Mulgrew turned up, it was not
too often, unfortunately, she's delightful.
I like this set, actually, this bar.
I think it's reasonably good.
I think that's the same set, you know, that they had for alliances
in the previous season.
They use a similar sort of bar.
I think they've kept it around and they've just ended a bit of set
dressing and a fireplace.
But I think giving it the fireplace and giving it the stone walls
you know, as if it's taking place in an old building and that's
one of the venues for Gothic to take place.
And we open with him telling this sort of ghost story. you know
essentially, which we discover is, what is his nose?
He's like a low range. piercing eyes, isn't he?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, what were you watching the other day when you said someone
had, you were watching a 90s track the other day, weren't you, when
you said someone had extra nostrils or something like that?
Oh, yeah, no, well, that was in Warlord, which I watched after
this.
Yeah.
So Zahir is the handsome one, played by David Lee Smith, and he's
sort of very handsome in a Ronan kind of way.
Do you know what I mean?
Like he's not actually handsome, but he would look good on the
front cover of a sort of pulpy romance novel.
And he's having a romance with Kezin.
Now, Kez has recently separated from Neelix.
Well, God, which spares us having to talk about that relationship
anyway.
Yeah, well, in fact, that happens in Warlord when she's actually
possessed by the guy.
She dumps him for being too clingy.
Ethan Phillips has a lot to say about that. actually.
There's a quote from him saying he was really annoyed because
there was a sequence in warlord at the end where she says, no, this
wasn't me possessed.
I genuinely want to break up with you. and he's really her, but
they actually bring, because, Ethan Villa's just like, well, that
relationship just got brought to an end in the middle of this
episode, where, you know, this has been going on for 2.5 years.
We've done whole episodes about this relationship.
Shouldn't we bring this to a definitive conclusion?
And they just go, nah, that'll do.
Yeah, but it's series 3, isn't it?
Like series 3 isn't doing serialisation.
It's not changing the status quo. not leaning into the premise.
It's just trying to do old Star Trek episodes, I think.
And romance of the week and he can play this week's, you know
victim of this Gothic horror.
Well, I have to say that I wouldn't have wanted to watch that
scene because I think that the Kess Neelix relationship is
terrible for both characters and I'm glad it's over.
Yeah.
What were they thinking?
Yeah, I don't know.
Don't know.
We've got this great idea.
We can have this weird alien.
It's like this amalgam of every single latex alien we've ever had
in Star Trek before. and he's in love with a three-year-old. two
year-old.
That's right.
So weird.
Not quite as weird as when they did that.
You remember, the one that went into the future and Harry Kim was
then having sex with a 2 year old.
That was gross.
Okay, so here we are.
Here is Gandhi.
But what we're seeing Gandhi do is be a massive killjoy about
sex.
And of course, he was that, you know, like, so all of that sort of
super tedious.
And all of these people that we, I mean, and this, the least sexy
Lord Byron ever to appear on screen.
Probably one of the worst actors in any star.
He's doing this awfully clipped British accent.
Well, I think he's American.
Surely.
They have just got an American trying to do the accent.
It's really...
And can I just say it?
This whole hideous Hawaii holidays there.
I hate it on a level I cannot explain.
You know, I really liked it because I did go back and watch
Warlord, which is where this is set, is introduced, I think.
Is that the one where Neelix's feet are jiggling about?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, he's dancing.
I can't remember.
I think it is.
I think it's the 1st scene of Warlord.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And they sex the program up a bit because Neelix is a sort of high
end spa for very rich people.
And then I think Tom puts lots of girls in bikinis.
Oh, there's Tapau over there. look to power at the desk. literally
it is just the colony set they use for other places.
Made to look like a beach, like go and film it on a fucking
beach.
Or does it sound like you?
Is this is this some?
I don't know who that is, some Greek philosopher, probably
philosopher.
Yeah, I don't know who.
He's wearing a robe.
Yeah, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's not bald, so it can't be Socrates.
You see how Gandhi's trying to get out of shot there.
He was running off.
No, in fact, this is fantastic.
It's Gandy talking to a lady in a bikini, which I just think is
absolutely hilarious in the background of this shop.
You know, like, this would be fun, but do you remember the
beginning of, uh, is it Times Arrow or Descent, where Data's got
uh, Stephen Hawking and, you know, all the geniuses?
Oh, I started.
We've done this before.
Yeah, yeah.
I do actually like the weird grotesqueness of what the doctor does
to those holograms later in the episode.
I don't think it goes far enough.
I think it's all a bit comic and yeah.
Like, it should be really, it should be like horrible.
But it is like you said, it's PG-13, 90s track, isn't it?
It's it sort of straddles the line between disturbing and stupid
and I think it basically lands on stupid, but it's it's near, it's
getting near disturbing, I think.
And so here, there we go.
There's the doctor delivering some much needed exposition in case
you missed that and who wouldn't miss that Neelix and case have
broken up in case you've been wondering.
Oh, my outside Gandhi had terrible legs.
Didn't they?
He was famous for it.
Yeah.
I mean, it is, I suppose it's quite nice that they're giving
Jennifer Leanne more opportunities because she's only going to be
around for another sort of half season now.
Yeah, less than that.
At this point, there's very few episodes for her left because
we're quite...
But in this season, they give a warlords, this, and before and
after.
Those are the 3 biggies this season.
And as we discussed before, you know, they put a ton of latex on
our own before and after. and ask her to try and act her way
through it.
It's pretty grim, isn't it?
I think she's really good.
I think she's massively underused, but I really like her.
And when she's just doing her normal thing because she's got that
beautiful, deep voice and she's sort of, you know, she's kindly an
elf and I, you know, and I like her relationship with a doctor a
lot and I like her relationship with Jane.
Especially in series one where she's sort of going after his
rights, you know, she actually goes up to the captain and says, you
know, you treat him like a person.
You use him like a person, so treat him like a person, you know.
Yeah.
And then Jane Wick goes sick by and apologises to him.
It's wonderful.
And then Robert Picardo's reaction to that, whereas like, that's
the last thing he ever suspected to happen.
It's really touching.
You go, Voyager, stately, heading through planets and nebulae.
Yeah, well, this is a bit less fun than the lower decks opening
credits.
Um, and maybe talk about that. creatures sucking the serena.
No.
I've been recently binge watching all the lower decks episodes
that I haven't seen.
May I say, I watched this in the middle of all that, and this was
nowhere near as fun as any of those appears. of them.
Now this sequence here.
Okay, this is the one bit where he behaves in a bit of a purview
way, isn't it?
where he's not stroking a leg.
But unfortunately, she does have to belong.
Yeah, doing it to Kes, I think, would have been more unpleasant to
watch.
And this is kind of gross, but she's immediately kind of what the
hell are you doing?
And then she absolutely...
Yeah, yeah.
You know, do that, I'm going to snap, snap your fingers off.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like and so that's pretty cool.
She's so great.
You better back off.
I think Torres is certainly in latter-day voyage.
We've discussed this, but I think she's massively underused.
Roxanne Dawson is such a presence.
She's good Yeah, I mean, there's some great people on this cast.
It's not quite the all-star cast of Deep Space Nine, but, you know
you've got the good Robert, you've got Janeway, you've got Tim
Russ, you've got Belana, Jerry Ryan. you know, Jerry Ryan.
Jennifer Leanne.
Like, they're all good.
And what is weird as well is even like the weaker actors.
There are moments where they deliver.
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, they're not terrible all the time.
Not even the worst, Robert.
Whereas, you know, like the TNG chart cast, which coast along on
fantastic chemistry.
Oh, sorry. and just being a new thing.
I mean, the thing with the TNG cast is they kind of broke the
ground here and created this kind of thing.
Ah, ooh, that's interesting, isn't it?
So he starts stroking her leg after he has isolated the additions
to his program and held them for a view.
So he's still behaving like that.
So this is the 1st hint that these additions to his program are
leaking in some way.
There's some kind of problem.
Do you know what pleased me was they didn't wait too long.
You know, after Zahir is thrown off the ravine or whatever, occurs
to him.
They didn't wait too long.
I think it's in the very next scene, they have the doctor go into
the bar and order the drink because I thought, if they turn this
into a whodunit, when they, that's tedious.
It's been adding all these evil personalities.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we know it's not exactly a mystery.
Are we getting a really shitty shot in a 2nd?
So we're seeing them in front of some rocks and some plants and
stuff.
It's a, you know, just a terrible Star Trek planet set.
But I think, do we get to see them looking out at the moon or
something?
Yeah, they do a lot, really bad.
It's a wonderful episode called Prime Factors.
Oh, it's most sort of filmed on, you know, standard colony set
number 58.
And but there's one scene of Harry Kim looking out across a
beautiful vista and there's this photographed in front of her
better than that.
It's still, this is bad though.
I mean, it's something.
I get an awful lot of enjoyment, though, you know, when I watch
90s trek now. there's a particularly bad visual effect because I
can just see you there watching it appalled, you know?
You know, add something, I guess.
Oh, dear.
So whenever we do these episodes and we watch them in preparation
for untitled Star Trek, I just, I just think about you watching it
going, oh, God.
What were they thinking?
But like, you know, can I say this is another one of those 90s
alien races, you know?
We never going to remember again, are we?
No, they're so unmemorable.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We talk about the Beaumar, but like, no, I mean, these people
don't look stupid.
They've got sort of crappy kind of Bajoran nose ridges that are
worse than the orbit, Joran nose ridges.
But, um, I guess because he has to look pretty, he can't have, he
can't be too Beaumari-ish, otherwise we wouldn't, you know, want
to watch him kissing Cass.
Not sure I want to watch it anyway.
Clearly the doctor does, though, in that little.
It is sinister, but rogue.
What could it possibly be?
I think, too, that part of the problem is that Star Trek does such
straightforward linear storytelling at this point.
Look, this is the walk of shame.
She's been up all night fucking Zahir.
You sort of do nothing where you can arrest your shoulder for some
reason. that's right And look, she gets side eye from the
transporter chief, chief who knows exactly what's going on here.
What he's been up to last night, yeah.
Yes.
Why do you smell that?
I would choose such a fucking killjoy, isn't it?
Well, remember, got a report during 3 hours.
Although I do like the next bit where she...
Is she in the in the room with Janeway and she looks like death
warmed up because she's only had 2 hours sleep.
Yeah.
And Jane, where it goes, I'm the past master at, you know, pulling
an all night. and then going to work the next day.
Janeway is so great, isn't she?
She is.
Does that mean that she was like, you know, up all night having
sex with someone and then submitting an essay by the 7 AM 9 AM
deadline the next day or something?
You're talking about me age 15 to 20 there, you know.
I can do it now.
But look, she's absolutely dressed in one of Depole's old outfits
that have obviously been lying around for a few 100 years, isn't
she?
It looks, well, it's that sort of velour look against it, you were
talking about.
Yeah.
Um, you know, this this kind of works because you'd think the
doctor would be a little bit concerned about her, you know, going
off and...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But because we've had all these scenes beforehand.
And the indication that he's already a dirty pervert with B'lana.
None of this, like it doesn't add up to any kind of a mystery.
There's no suspense.
It's just like, okay, well, when are people going to figure out
the doctor's got a bit bad?
Yeah, yeah, but the problem is, isn't it, that we know before
anyone else does?
And so they look stupid is the problem because it's super obvious
to us.
You know, and if we hadn't seen that, if we discovered later that
the doctor had been doing this, that would have made it a bit more
interesting, but we're not going to do that in 90s trek, because
it's meant to be comprehensible to people who aren't paying much
attention, I think.
I can't believe I'm going to ask you this question, but it happens
so frequently that I can actually ask you this.
Is there ever on a regular character has gone evil episode that
actually genuinely works?
I thought we liked Marina in PowerPlay.
I think.
No, Marina in the one with Alcar. when she's like man of the
people.
Don't leave me alcohol.
She attacked Picard with a knife in the transporter.
Yeah, but is she also the one who goes, I think that he just might
be sick of hearing you whining all the time.
Oh, I love that scene so much.
She goes, I know I am.
It's so good.
No, I'll tell you what, actually, the best, probably the best ever
like, chilling performers is Tim Russett Mild, when he's the
serial killer.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, he's really properly good actor.
I think Kirst does a better job.
Well, I think it's a better episode.
It's a more fun episode.
Do you not remember Evil Janeway in that episode where they're all
misremembered?
And she goes, when diplomacy fails, there's only one recourse
violence.
Violence.
It must be applied without apology.
That's a really good episode, though.
That's one of the, that's top 5 voyages.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Living Witness.
Thats it.
Yeah really good.
This certainly is not top five.
No, I don't think it's bottom 5 though.
It is relentlessly and unashamedly mediocre, I think.
I've always aspire to be unashamedly mediocre though.
That's it.
Me too.
I think I mean, again, these 2 together aren't great, aren't
they?
It is always good.
Yeah.
Right up into the gift as well, where they have a phenomenal scene
in that.
I just, I like the fact she's always straddling a coffee cup
Janeway, you know.
We never quite forget she loves a cup of coffee.
No, that's her character.
They made a joke about that in Lower Decks, yet?
They like the Janeway blend or something like that.
I don't know. can't remember.
I think part of the problem, though, is the usual 90s trek
dialogue as well, which is all just a little bit ripe and free of
subtext.
I think.
Oh, but that look, look, there's giving the look.
The exacts aren't looking at her anymore, so she can be a bit
maternal.
Yeah, which is kind of nice.
That is actually kind of nice, I think.
So we've established now.
This is how obvious this all is.
We've established now, you know, Kes isn't falling for this
beautiful man on the planet with the bizarre Bajoran reduced, and
he's been very helpful and he's getting them in touch with the
right people to get the warp coils or whatever they need.
This man is absolutely vital to Kez and the crew.
So now he's going to be almost bumped off.
Well, I don't think he's vital.
And in fact, that's one of the things that I like about this
episode is they just seem to be here to meet these people and to
talk to them about. when they go when they do you remember that
episode in series 6?
Um, survival instinct. is the 2nd episode where they go to that
space station and they're just hanging out with this fabulous race
of people on this amazing setting.
I'm like, yeah, they should do more of that though.
Yeah.
And I think Voyager can do that, perhaps, maybe more than other
things where there's always a mission or something.
They're just here on their way home.
I kind of like it.
And I think this scene is, I'm not sure what this scene is doing
but again, it's actually quite nice having Tim Rusk get to do
something with someone for a change rather than just pressing
buttons from the tactical station.
It is nice for everybody, like Jane Wade Schubok, the doctor.
We've had a succession of scenes where they're all concerned about
her in different ways because she's exploring. you know, this like
this romantic side over now.
But like, are we supposed to think that she's going to want to
stay here with this man?
Maybe.
I mean, no, probably not.
It's got to go wrong, doesn't it, in some way?
It was just a bit in the minute where he's like, hello, is
somebody there?
He was like, oh, mate.
You're going to be thrown off that ravine any minute.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Do you know, I swear that ravine, they must keep that ravine
hanging around as well, you know, because that's in a couple of, I
think it's definitely in an episode of TNG where they climb a rock
face.
Yeah.
And it's in the, uh, it's in an episode of uh, Deep Space 9 move
along home where they all fall off it.
In slow motion.
Well, I think it's, I think it's probably too expensive a set to
be from early 90s trek because everything just looked like sort of
chicken wire with a bit of papier mache on it, you know, like it
never looked, there's a lot of detail in that.
Well, they were going for the true TOS aesthetic in those early
days, you know.
They were.
Yeah, yeah.
No.
I think that's almost a deliberate choice, but, you know, I mean
this isn't much better than that, is it?
It's like we said, though, when we watched Enterprise last week
yeah, things did move on a bit.
I know the CGI was a little ropey, but...
You know?
And they rented a conference room at a shitty hotel as well.
There we go.
There he goes.
I do quite like the slow motion.
We don't have a lot of that in 90s straight, yeah.
Yeah, it's a bit shit, isn't it?
But like, because I guess it would have looked like shit is a bit
at the end when they Kez goes over and we literally do a POV shot
going down the mountain.
I just don't, I don't feel, like, Ricardo does say our memory
alpha that he was having fun with this.
I didn't really get that sense.
I wasn't having a lot of fun with it Yeah, look at him.
He gets to burn that shithead there, which is pretty cool.
And he's got...
Warlord.
Jennifer Yen is loving it, you know?
But I think I think Picardo is doing something different because
he's, I mean, he's camp, but he's not sort of camping it up and
striding through things as a sort of as a big camp villain.
Like there's something a little bit more kind of sordid and
unpleasant about him.
But because it's still Star Trek and there's a kind of lack of
grittiness or realism to it.
It, it doesn't kind of, you know, come off that well.
In living witness, he gets a single scene where he plays the evil
doctor in that.
Yeah, and he's with 7 of 9 and they really lean into this sort of
pervert doctor.
And he's like, sorry, sort of sort of like stroking her implant
and going on, start whining like a baby.
And he's really, but he's chewing the scenery a bit, you know
whereas he's not doing much chewing here, is he?
Yeah.
I mean, he's trying to give it a bit. a bit of substance.
Yeah Well, I think he's read the script and maybe he's seen the
big moral speech that he gets to do to Kes when he's back down at
the bar and that sort of lifted it in his estimation.
I don't know, though. you know, I think I probably would have just
not a bit over the top if it was me.
Yeah, I mean, he's he hasn't been over the top.
I think his hair is hilarious.
He's got this.
It's not quite Dr. Zimmerman hair, but he's got kind of, he's got
these big fake, you know, Klingon teeth, you know, on his bottom
jaw.
Razy, bogly contacts.
The contact lenses are really weird because they make his irises
look smaller, and so he's these that are really unnaturally beady
eyes, and look at him there.
He's got these beautiful dark eyes in real life.
And it's only just slight, you know.
And so it does make him look weird.
I mean, I think both of us rewatching this went, oh, he's wearing
contact lenses, isn't he, before, you know, he'd read anything
about it, but it's, it's, well, it's not subtle.
But it is, it's an odd thing for them to do and it does make him
look much creepier.
May I say that every single Star Trek show needs the character
that can make this techna barrel seem effortless, and Roxanne
Dawson does a brilliant job.
Yeah, yeah, she is pretty good.
Stop it.
It like Lebar Burns.
It just trips off her tongue, you know?
I still think that LeVar doesn't get enough credit for being
absolutely superb at doing that.
He sells...
We said the mould, didn't he?
Yeah, yeah, but he just does it really well.
Because they don't, like, I don't, I think Nemoy has to do a bit
of that in TOS.
Yeah, but really that's not his function, is it?
His function is to be a character. whereas I don't think Jordan La
Forge's function is to be a character.
No, yeah, he's his job.
I think, too, that this version of Star Trek really leans into the
techno babble more than 60 Star Trek, and partly, I think, because
we, like, it expects us to be aware of more science and more
technology than they were aware of in the 60s.
Do you know what I mean?
And I think that they also like to do the sort of magical kind of
if we just say enough words, the space problem will go away, like
as a way of solving things, which is a flaw, but they very often
go for that, see before and after, which we mentioned earlier.
Um, yeah.
I wonder who on earth knocked Banatores out.
Yeah, I actually think I don't like this scene very much.
Actually, I think it's a, it's the upcoming scene because so he
paralyses her and then starts Menacinger.
I think that's, that's probably too much, I think.
That was the one bit rifle.
This is a bit creepy.
The bit where he's doing wacky things with the characters of the
holiday.
I just thought that was terrible.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And that, I mean, it's nearly going for that.
It's going for grotesque and unsettling and just hits terrible.
And it's certainly kind of scarier than when he's down on the
planet and hunched over, you know, like.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, this is probably his most evil thing.
Okay, now...
And he does...
I do like the fact that he gets a bit jowly, you know, like his
face is different.
Is it?
Well, it's partly the teeth, but it is his performance as well, I
think, you know.
He's he's a little sort of desperate with the hands and it's all
kind of inwards.
It's it's good.
Yeah.
I mean, it is it's Jekyll and Hyde, isn't it?
It is just Jekyll and Hyde.
Theyve just ripped that off and said, oh, I would...
But to do that, and for me to say it's not over the top.
That's quite impressive, isn it?
Well, it is a bit over the time.
Look at him.
How are we feeling?
Sort of shaking his hands and like, yeah, and twitching and
stuff.
Yeah.
I also like too, that he hates the idea of the doctor.
You know, he reacts to being called doctor and he dislikes the
fact that he's our half, is the, he's a doctor because he, you
know, because he thinks that um, violence and and things are, uh
more fundamental than cooperation and caring.
And when Kes gives the speech at the end.
It's about, and it's a bit of a cheesy, shitty speech, but it's
about how even at a cellular level we're a colony of things that
cooperate, like cells and organs all work together to produce an
organism, and that's more fundamental than the violence that he
wants to perpetrate.
So again, it's the doctor thing.
It's the idea that he spends his time serving people.
Those contact lenses look great.
I just saw him run his finger along her leg there as well.
So maybe there's a bit more of that than I thought.
Yeah.
So they were Picardo's idea, I think.
What, the contact?
The contact lenses?
Yeah.
I don't think I mean, they do look good, but his performance is
enough to sell.
Yeah. you know?
But I just think making him like it, yes, his performance could do
it, but just making him physically weirder because that's the
Jacqueline Hyde thing.
It's not that just, you know, Dr. Jekyll's in a bad mood sometimes
it is he transforms into a monster and here they do it.
Look at those contact lenses.
They're amazing.
Like what you were just saying there about sort of the nature of
evil and what you're rejecting now.
I think it kind of tentatively touches on that here, but doesn't
really explore it.
Do you remember when we watched the swarm earlier in the season
and it was doing the dementia storyline and it tentatively touched
that, but it didn't really explore it.
You know, like...
But I think they can.
They can, like, we did the visitor the other day and they explored
grief in 45 minutes in a very profound way. can do it.
Yeah, and they're not, they're not really doing it here.
Like it is sort of window dressing, but again, I think it is
something to do with with a genre, with a sort of Gothic horror
genre.
You know, because I mean, I haven't read Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde
and maybe I should.
And I'd forgotten until I was reading up on it that it's by Robert
Louis Stevenson because of course it is.
Oh, what's happening?
This scene I really liked.
Where nobody notices.
The way he's practically... he's hunched.
He's hunched over.
He's like, you know, round shouldered.
He looks really pissed off.
She's so obsessed with whatever is on that pad that she doesn't
even notice bizarre way that he's behaving.
Yeah, she's just dumb.
He's just...
The turbo lift next to her, given her this like evil side eye.
That's kind of creepy, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
But then who, like, I actually think, um, uh, doesn't Robert
Duncan McNeil come on board the turbo lift, but he's contractual
obligated scene, and I actually think he's pretty funny.
And what's funny about it, I think, is, you know, that that
Picardo's nearly a slavering monster at this moment, and he's just
nobody notices.
No, because he is such an asshole normally.
Well, that's it because he's basically sort of kind of an
obnoxious asshole and that's how that's how Tom reads it.
I think this is exactly how you should script on Paris as well.
Basically give him 3 lines in an episode, you know?
Come in, acknowledge somebody, realise he's been insulted, walk
out.
Yeah, even the walk.
Look at the walk.
Like the way that Mr. Hyde Walks is pretty cool.
Well, because the doctor's so clipped, isn't he?
The way he walks.
He's so precise.
But he sort of hunched over and he's, it's really, he's a bit of a
kind of scary bully.
I wish to retract my statement from last week then saying that
Robert Picardo gives a bad performance in this episode.
No, I don't think he does.
I think he's good.
No, that's what I'm saying. taking it back.
Yeah, good.
Yeah.
So what's that game again?
Calto, is it?
So it's like comedes.
They're fucking obsessed with counts having Series 3. one episode
it's not in.
It's not that great.
There's that episode where Harry Kim and Tom Tuvok are both
fighting over the same...
Holodeck character.
Yes, yeah, that's right.
They're both playing Calto to try and sort of one-up each other
you know?
Yeah.
Well, I don't think it's as good as Strategyma.
We had that scene at the beginning, which showed a bit of tension
between the 2 alien characters.
So now he's the chief suspect has done pushed him over the
ravine.
Yeah, but we don't, well, we've seen the doctor threatening him
haven't we?
So we don't, you know, like, this scene is entirely pointless.
It's just here to show that Chewbok is in fact investigating this
mystery.
Oh, look, and here's Chakotay with his lines for the week, his 3
lines.
I think he only has one actually, you know.
He's given it his all, though.
That's it.
He's gone, too, Bobby.
See you next week.
We should like this more, really.
We're only focussing on the main Robert, aren't we?
Yeah exactly.
The good Robert.
It's so sad.
Kes is about to discover Balanat Torres paralysed.
Yeah.
I mean, we cut away, but nothing terrible happens to her, right?
No, yeah, yeah.
No, nothing terrible.
This is still 90s true.
You know, that's that saying that, you know, like there are more
uh, there are more CEOs of major companies called John than there
are female CEOs.
And here it's like there's as many people called Robert in the
cast as there are women.
We're talking over this grotesque scene.
It's not grotesque.
So, wait, what has he done to Lord Byron?
So you've got you've got Gandhi's head, oh, look, Lord Byron's
head is full of... is spinning, which I think is hilarious.
Archimedes or whoever the fuck it is.
Byron's head bulging?
He's in half.
Um, a hello case.
Well, in the original script, I was just planning to dissect you
while lots of other youths stood around in the holodeck, but
Manosky said we weren't going to do that.
I feel like Byron's, you know, entrail should be.
Yeah, well, they're not going to do that, are they?
But I do think that the half, you know, that they've split the
Greek philosopher in half and he's literally hollow.
Like there's nothing inside him.
There's just his whatever he's wearing.
I think that's pretty cool.
But like, if they're going to do horror, and this is sort of
trying to be a horror.
Yeah.
Well, then should they bother if they can't make it horrific?
Well, I think they probably could, but they're not skilled enough
to work around what they have.
I think there's a few moments in Knight is Trek where they
succeed.
There's not many, but there's a few.
There's a wonderful bit in Empoc Nor where it's, which is
essentially quite camp and silly.
But it's lit brilliantly.
It kind of lit by Mike Vajar is a great director.
And there's a sequence where there's a bowling kid who's like
looking at something.
And suddenly this Kardashian comes smashing through glass and
grabs him by the neck and it's really scary for like a half a
second.
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, like when discovering came back
for series one, it was much more prepared to do things that
weren't PG.
And so you did have, you know, Tory from Battlestar Galactica
getting her guts ripped out by a tardigrade.
And there's that whole scene.
There's that whole episode where they're wandering around
Discovery sistership and being hunted by the Tardigrade.
I must have said this before, maybe when we were talking before.
I thought there was an episode of Enterprise, and I know you can
disagree with this, because you watched it, and I don't think you
liked it, where they're on a Vulcan ship, and they're all like
psychotic, and it's kind of done in this very sort of
hallucinogenic way.
So you're never quite sure.
It's a bit walking dead, isn't it, where they're all zombies?
Yeah, I thought it was a little bit shit.
And I thought they kind of pushed it as far as they were willing
to go there.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, episode 9 was it?
of Strange New Worlds was actually properly scary in a sort of
fairly trad alien's way.
And it, you know, so modern Star Trek can do scary, but it's got
more things that it can do, where here we're basically in sort of
well lit sets, just talking, and we've got to try and create
something scary out of that.
Well, basically, I think bourbon trek at its height, TNG, uh, DS9
Voyager, it's all going to be down to the performance, isn't it?
It's not going to be down to, you know, whether they're selling it
through atmosphere and things like that.
So like Tim Ross in...
Uh, Mild.
That's very scary because he's really intense.
Do you know what I think actually is has the scariest modes in
Star Trek the Next Generation?
Go on.
Genesis.
I think I don't think you're wrong actually.
Yeah, are you talking about the spider?
Yeah, yeah.
No, but also wharf, like when wharf opens his mouth and just
suddenly spits the poison into Beverly's face and she screams.
Yeah, she screams.
Yeah, yeah.
And there's jump scarce and stuff in that. directed by Gaze McFad
in that episode.
It's terrible.
I mean, there's a sequence where they go to the bridge, right?
And it's in the half dark and the person's at the console and
their whole stomach's torn out and the camera just very quickly
goes past it.
Yeah.
I think Brandon Bragger did like a bit of body horror and he
pushed it as far as they probably were willing to let him.
Yeah, but yeah, yeah.
But they, I mean, this, this is really funny in the way that it's
written like a Gothic horror, which I think really requires, I
think the story to work on any level requires him to plummet off
the ravine with her to their deaths, you know, and that's a, you
know, melodramatic and grotesque and operatic kind of conclusion
which is the sort of aesthetic that we'd kind of be going for.
And I do think that it's absolutely written that the fact that
this is just a Star Trek episode means that we get to escape that
conclusion.
It's not that anyone outwits anyone or, you know, anyone's
persuaded or anything.
It's just like, we have a teleport.
What is it, a transporter, and this is Star Trek.
And so Star Trek wins the day over the Gothic horror.
But like, this isn't him.
This is him, the character we know of all these extra bits from
here just for the purposes of this episode.
So he doesn't learn anything.
We don't we're not going on a journey.
We're not he's not developing in any way.
It's like, what does he learn from this?
Okay, don't splice other people's personalities into yours.
Well, great, what a moral.
I promise I won't do that, you know.
Well, I think the only person who learns anything.
Look at Kes.
So this is the, this is the conversation I was talking about
before where he says that violence and selfishness and and all of
those things are fundamental, that they're more fundamental than
good, and the good is essentially illusory, and what, um, you know
that what he's discovered, what he's learned from all of these
great historical figures from the past is that evil is
fundamental.
And so that's the conversation that we're having.
This is a conversation that is, you know, some in some directions
you know, gesturing towards what Star Trek's about.
I don't know.
And that's, that's... mildly, I think.
I still don't think that's what this episode is about.
They're touching on it.
They're talking about it, but it's not really part of the story, is
it?
No, but it's sort of gesturing towards that idea that the Gothic
is about sort of, you know, kind of primal drives and and over the
top emotions and things like that.
The, the, you know, that the windswept ravine and stuff is, is a
venue that reflects, you know, what human beings are like or
something.
I'm sort of struggling to express this.
And so I think it is part of the Gothic horror idea that Hyde
isn't just a personality.
He's a discovery about how morality works and he's wrong in case.
I mean, what we'll say demonstrates that.
They're trying to, they're trying to add a little bit of
substance.
Like we've done episodes of on top of Star Trek Project, about
dramatis persona, where there's just been nothing at all.
What is this about?
What is the theme?
What are they trying to say?
What are the characters learning?
At least they're...
Yeah, I mean, this isn't much like Jekyll and Hyde, from what I
know of how that plays out, but what we do is we make a decision
to let's let Bob be evil this week.
And, you know, we kind of go, how about we do Jekyll and Hyde?
And so then they bring in that whole kind of Gothic thing, which I
think that's interesting.
That at least is an attempt to do something a little bit
interesting and to have everything in the episode working in the
same direction.
But like in Living Witness, where they're doing, you know, they're
actually exploring what is the impact if Voyager is misremembered
as this evil crew on this society?
And that's really interesting.
But also that episode is also about how important is the sort of
historic oppression of a group of people, how much should we pay
attention to that when we work out how to treat them now.
And that's an absolutely living issue, you know, in Australia in
America.
Um, you know, and so it's got something really properly
interesting to say.
This, I think, is sort of aesthetic.
And because it's Star Trek and Star Trek generally looks...
Star Trek looks the same.
Walk it across the top of the ravine.
Oh, look it, but looking down off the ravine.
That's pretty great.
Look at that.
Look at that photograph of a river down there.
Yeah, exactly.
Did you see those polystarian rocks bounce away there as they
phase at the wall?
Very impressive, I must say.
I feel as if I'm watching an episode of Discovery right now.
Yeah, well, here's the other Robert with a gun.
You see, you said he just had one line, but other Robert's here
and he's doing something.
He's got 5 lines.
This is a sway for him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so this is Cass, right?
I remember screaming at the TV, right?
when I 1st watched this.
Well, you just shove her off already.
No, but here, here she's saying that all of his behaviour isn't
due to some philosophical conclusion that he's reached, evil isn't
a, you know, like isn't a force.
It's just him being an asshole in order to protect her.
It's actually a fundamentally good emotion that has been perverted
and has caused this violence.
And it's the good in him, that is prompting his behaviour.
But then we get that.
And he nearly wins the argument.
And I want to know why they don't just drop onto the transporter.
Like, they do a little bit of a kind of thing.
That's a good point.
The inertial things have cut in.
Oh, here's Harry giving a line too, which is kind of delightful.
Look at that.
I could have just had that transporter woman was doing such good
work earlier, had they?
didn't Harry Kim at all?
No, but he's pretty.
It's nice to see him.
It's so interesting because Robert Picardo is in those same
clothes there when he materialises, but the performance is just so
different, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I just love the doctor.
I mean, I think this is so shit.
We're 2 minutes from the end and he just sort of goes, oh, well, I
won't do that again.
Yes, I've switched all those off.
Until the next time he decides to, because do you remember, I
don't know if you recall.
It was him trying to better himself in the dementia episode as
well.
Every time he does this, it always goes horribly wrong.
It always leads to a whole episode of Voyager and nobody wants
that.
Although it does have that wonderful scene of him with the opera
diva.
Do you remember?
Oh, great.
Oh, look, she loves the doctor.
Bless her.
Which makes it very bizarre when she comes back in fury in series
6 and tries to kill everybody.
Yeah, yeah.
Stupid.
Also written by Brandon Bragger, of course.
And and then she just decides to stay why?
Because.
She's had her fun.
Well, maybe.
The doctor has proven just how much he cares for her. don't know.
I don't think the episode's coming to any great conclusion.
I don't think it is either, and that's probably...
You realise what's happened?
You what's happened, don't you?
45 minutes have passed so we can just forget about this now.
Well, essentially.
And then this is a bit shit where he just recites the Hippocratic
oath as he walks around the table looking very actively there
Bob.
Yeah, you can wash it a bit.
Patrick Stewart.
Really?
And then it ended.
Yeah, yeah.
And I'll tell you what, the best part of that was, is we don't
have to do this episode again.
No, that's true.
And will you notice that they've spelt Gandhi's name wrong in the
club?
No.
Oh, no.
That's embarrassing.
Oh wow.
I wonder if it's wrong all through the script.
I bet you it is.
No, no, don't get me wrong.
I think you did a very game attempt there at giving that a little
bit of weight, a little bit of weight.
I don't think it's a disaster.
I feel like I need to take you to task at this point, okay?
Because like, you can be a bit contrarian at times on this
podcast.
Sometimes, staying at the scene of AR 558 is terrible.
And in the pale moonlight, it's not as good as people say.
96 Bay.
It's actually not bad. work of genius.
Well, I didn't say that, but it's pretty good.
You look, I I can see how Doc Oho would have been kind of worn
down by making his way through series 3 if it's all like this.
It's all kind of mildly diverting high concept stuff that has sort
of been done before.
I think that's kind of what we're doing, isn't it, at this point?
And when Voyager is good, it leans into the premise and does
interesting things.
And it does do that, I think, more often than maybe we give it
credit for.
I think if I went back and watched season 3 now, I would probably
see more of worth in it.
Like, I've certainly gone back and watched episodes like sacred
ground, the one where Janeway goes through those bizarre rituals
on that planet and it's religion versus science. remember that
one?
And she's all science and she doesn't believe in it.
And then she goes on this weird spiritual experience.
And at the end, they're all talking tetanobabble and the camera
just lingers on her and you know she's had a bit of an epiphany.
But when I 1st watched it back in the day. along with all the
others.
I was just like, oh, this is another tedious.
So I think if I went back and watched it, I would see a lot more.
There's some things in there like future's end.
Remember, unity, distant origin.
There are some good episodes in there, but on the whole, it's a
bit flat.
I think it is probably the worst example for me of just knocking
them out for a year.
Alright, it's time for us to decide what we're going to watch next
time.
And in honour of the journey that you've recently been taking Joe
which is catching up on lower decks, I think that we should choose
a lower decks episode.
Oh, great.
Well, I can finally talk about it with a bit of detail, you know
now I'm in the loop.
It's so fun.
You know, like, I think that the Voyager that we just watched aims
to be kind of agreeable and watchable and to pass the time.
I think it probably does do that.
And I think this is really watchable and really agreeable but it
has the added benefit of actually being good.
And so...
I think I think lower decks actually shows up a lot of the rest of
Star Trek by being so consistently good.
It's not always great, but it's always good.
I can't think of a terrible episode, whereas, you know, you give
me any other Star Trek show and I'll pull 10 out of a hat.
That's right That's right.
No, I think it's really fun.
So I'm looking forward to this.
There's not one member of the cast that I don't like, either
either.
Both the characters and the actors.
Yeah.
The actors do brilliant work.
All the main characters are fun and likeable.
Even when they behave in appalling ways.
Yeah, well, that's the cartoon.
Do you know my new favourite is?
I love shacks.
It's great.
And the episode where he got to, the warp core was so funny when
he was running through the corridors going, this is my moment.
Thank you, thank you.
She goes, what is it?
He's always trying to eject the war call.
No, wait.
That's a great idea.
So much fun.
All right.
Okay.
I've got it selected.
I'm going to press the button and oh, we've actually rolled this
before.
Your random Star Trek Lower Decks episode is room for growth.
Season 3, episode 4.
So it's the one where the engineering crew are overworked and they
go to the spa, and then there's a B plot, and I can't remember
what it is.
I want you to bring up an embarrassment of duplers.
Sublimely good.
So great.
All right, here goes.
Cupid's errant arrow, which we've already done.
Episode 40.
The least dangerous game.
Season 3, episode two.
I think it might be the one where Boimler decides to be bold
Boimler.
He decides to accept lots of opportunity.
Oh, that's terrific.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he ends up being hunted through the shit.
It's really funny.
Oh, and it's the one that has the rise thing happening as the
other plot, isn't it?
The other plot is that on the planet Delane and there's a, what do
we call it?
Like a maglev lift and like a tether, and that is a pretty good
one.
That's great.
Let's do that.
And it'd be nice to do one in the latest season as well.
Yeah.
All right.
The thing with Lower Dex is, it's, it's, what I love is they are
short episodes.
So they never outstay their welcome.
But that's bad for us. because we only get 20 minutes to talk
about.
Well, normally we come in at about sort of 35 to 40 minutes on a
lower decks episode.
So we'll have things to talk about.
But it's a really enjoyable episode.
So that is series three, episode two. the least dangerous game
can't wait.
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find
links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Sisrin, and the theme was composed
by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 16th of January 2023 and released
on the 20th of January.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Lower Decks, the least
dangerous game.
You know, if you, like, like with aspirin, if we crumble it up and
put it on the side of where the tooth is, right, actually helps
like it's local.
Yeah, I'll try that actually.
Because it's, um, that's a like millennia old trick because it's
Willow, Salicylic acid.
It comes from the willow bark and so that people have been using
that for teeth for age.
Well, I've never heard of aspirin before, aspirin.
And I went to school almost an hour a week.
What's that?
The world planet.
Oh, you wouldn't buck it if I wanted to stick leeches all over
you.
That's been before.
That's great.
Isn't it great that a kid's show says sitting in the future, you
only have to go to school for an hour a week and you become a
genius space kid.
That's right So good.
So great.
We did the 3 holes. reading, writing, arithmetic.
My nan used to say that to me.
Yeah, yeah, that's the thing.
I'll be like, well, you weren't educating them well then
arithmetic. arithmetic.
Yeah.
Oh, well, writing isn't really an R either.
Um, punch me or something, that might help.
I should jab it out.
It's literally this tooth, this wisdom tooth is half hanging on.
I just need to have it out.
I had horrible wisdom teeth experiences.
No, I didn't.
They did a root canal and it's clearly gone horribly wrong because
it's made the tooth disintegrate.
No, I had them, mum.
Uh, like I either pulled out, but they were so desperate to stay
that he was like smashing it up while it was in my jaw and pulling
bits of it on.
And I was there for like ages.
So phobic of the dentist.
You need to stop right now.
I'll never go.
Yeah, it was the thing, but it's all gone.
But I sort of lived in terror of it for like 10 years because I
knew that at some point, because I had 2 of them done and thought
actually, fuck it, I'm not.
And then at one point I said, put me to sleep, you know, like give
me a, like put me out for it and just do it.
And then the dentist said, yeah, no, that tends to be bad because
because you're not awake, you end up being kind of a bit beaten up
because, do you know what I mean?
you're not resisting and you're not, you know, like, so it tends
to be worse.
Yeah.
That was painful as this episode.
I was like, stop now.
I know you'd quite like this.
Well, I thought it was all right.
Anyway, I'll say, I'll say what I think.
Should we do it?
Hey, Joe. Hi.