WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-01 at 21:29:11

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Hey, Joe. Hi.

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So, we are watching a pretty important episode, I think, of Deep

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Space 9 and one that would have to be on, well, it seems to be on

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everyone's sort of top 5 DS9 episodes and in many, many people's

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top 5 Star Trek episodes of all time, I think.

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Oh, I'd say the latter.

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And may I say warning signs hit me immediately when we start

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saying this because this automatically, like in the pale moonlight

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and the siege of AR 558 means that you are going to absolutely

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despise the thing.

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Well, no, I actually like it and I think it is very, very good.

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I think there are elements of the production that I'm still keen

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to make fun of because it is.

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It's still 90s trek.

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It is still 90s trek.

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And so there are some decisions which I think are a little bit

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unfortunate and which do kind of work against what they're trying

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to do.

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But I also think that it is really well done.

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And by all accounts, they didn't quite realise as they were making

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it how special it was going to be, it's got some great

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performances and it is a really interesting script that does break

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a number of Star Trek rules, which is super refreshing.

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If you've alluded to that a couple of times now, but haven't

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actually given me any details.

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I'm quite interested to see what you mean when you say that.

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I think this is one of those episodes where, yeah, you can point

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at the, you know, dreadful old age prosthetics that appear in this

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episode.

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The occasional piece of ropey dialogue that appears in this

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episode, and the languid pace, which seems to afflict most of 90

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Star Trek.

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Yeah.

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But there is a magic to this episode.

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It taps into something very, very real, which almost transcends

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all of those things.

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I found this extremely moving.

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Uh, before my mother died 3 years ago, and this is the 1st time

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it's the 2nd time, sorry, I've seen it since she passed, and it

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works on a whole different level, if you've lost a parent this

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episode.

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So yeah, I think like, you're right.

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The performances, the characterisation, but most importantly, the

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emotion that is in this.

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They judge it so finely that by the end, and it takes a lot for

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television to move me to tears, like I know, like you, you'll blub

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at anything.

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Hey, I'm hard as a rock when it comes to television.

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I was watching this this morning and I was in tears.

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It's really moving I've never watched it without having

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experienced the death of a parent, so I've never had a kind of

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naive watching of it.

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And it, it doesn't say anything very definite about grief.

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Like, you couldn't say that they've sat down and tried to say

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something about grief, but they explore it in all sorts of

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interesting ways.

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And because it's science fiction, they also get to explore it from

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the perspective of the parent who's gone as well, which I thought

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was really interesting and which worked really well.

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I found that the most moving thing.

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I've always, is Ben Sisco's reaction to Jake every time he

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appears.

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Like he's so happy celebrating his life throughout.

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And then he's really sad when, you know, he loses his wife and

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he's suddenly got this obsession with trying to bring him back.

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And then, boy, 0 boy, I'm not going to spoil it, but the, you know

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his reaction at the end of the episode, when he realises the

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lengths that Jake's going to go to so they can be together again.

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That is powerful stuff.

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It is really good.

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And you've got this incredible sort of central relationship, which

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perhaps no other Star Trek series has ever had. and that's the

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relationship between Jake and his father and I don't think

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anything comes close to it.

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Porthos and Archer.

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Perhaps not.

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Janeway and no, Janeway 7?

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No, not really.

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No, no, it's just...

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I mean, it's all manufactured relationships.

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This is that father-son bolt, which kind of comes down to the

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writing, that absolutely comes down to the chemistry between the 2

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actors.

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Yeah And it like it's really properly good, isn't it?

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There's really no scope in any other Star Trek series for that

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kind of family relationship.

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Lower decks as Freeman and Mariner, but that's a comedy and they

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do...

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Oh, but that's a... many different ways.

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Oh, it's fuck it.

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But this is really, really something.

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And I think, like you were going to say what Avery Brooks himself

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says about this.

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Yes, I've got a quote here on memory alpha, which is, and

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typically Avery Brooks fashion, it's fairly vague, but anyway, he

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says, I'm glad that relationship is there.

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It is even in the most naive mind, a sin of a mission that we have

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not looked at this side of people raising their children in other

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television shows and having some cultural resonance other than

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that of white Americans.

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It's something that actually he's being quite succinctive.

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It's something we have to see more of them, the relationship of a

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brown man and his son, because historically, that's not how it

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began in this country for brown families who didn't have the

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freedom of their own will and volition, let alone the ability to

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hold their families together.

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Yeah.

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It's true.

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It's really good, isn't it?

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Because their relationship is like it's very close and it's very

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tactile, like the 2 of them, you know, there's a physical

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affection between them, which I think is lovely, which I'm always

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moved by.

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The more I am watching this show, the more I am noticing, more

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than any other Star Trek show, even the Kursman shows, is how

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tactile these actors are with each other.

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And in this episode, it just, it screamed at me.

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You've got Kira kissing Jake on the head, Dax stroking his head in

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his quarters.

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Like there's there's a physical intimacy amongst these people that

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just sells it more than the usual Star Trek dialogue.

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We're a family, you know, we all work together.

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It's it's really lovely.

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Ira Bear, I've got a quote for Mario Bear as well.

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Because it also ties into the Jake Sisco thing.

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And I think this is really interesting because it sort of belies

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the fact that you and I sort of criticised love in 90s trick as

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being something that is incredibly awkward and uncomfortable.

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But this is a different kind of love and they get it spot on and

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what he says is it's a love stronger than death.

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Usually that's romantic love.

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But for this show, this series, we chose the love between a father

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and son and it worked like gangbusters.

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Everybody could relate to it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I think that's true as well Yeah, I think it's really terrific.

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And the 2 of them are excellent.

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And then we get Tony Todd, who had played Worf's brother in Star

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Trek, The Next Generation, and we'll go on to play him again later

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I think.

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Is that right?

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In Deep Space Nine?

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He also plays like, um, I think he's in Sankalsi.

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No, no, he's a Hiroji.

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I think in an episode.

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He's in prey.

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Yeah.

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Oh, no, that's a phenomenon.

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That's that's the sort of the alien episode of Sergeant Voyager.

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And interestingly, Tony Todd lost his aunt. not long before

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filming this.

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And he revealed that during the filming of this episode that he

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was mourning, that she raised him like a child and she died only 3

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months earlier.

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And he's quoted as saying this script got me out of my shell.

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It's like she was whispering to me, go back to work, doing this

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was close as close to heaven, as I can imagine.

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Wow. isn't that lovely?

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Yeah, well, I suppose, yeah, a script that sort of delves into

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grief whilst you're experiencing grief.

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Yeah.

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And, you know, like grief never goes away.

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And I think it, it's telling, isn't it, that that we see these

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events where Ben comes back and speaks to Jake, you know, decades

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apart that even decades later, he feels the loss of his father and

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as he goes on with his life, sometimes that loss kind of prevents

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him from living his life.

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And I think there's, this is sort of quite well judged as well, I

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think.

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And we'll talk about it as the episode goes on, but I think that

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that's very effectively set up in the scenes early on where we

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actually just see Jake and Ben together before the accident. think

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it's good.

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What's really interesting.

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Obviously, the chemistry between Avery and Sirok is just there.

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Yeah, they've been working together for 3 years.

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They had it in emissary for the sakes.

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It's just gotten stronger since then.

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What surprised me was the chemistry between Avery and Tony Todd

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which I absolutely believe, you know, and I think are some of the

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most moving scenes in this.

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But I think if you're going to do an episode of this sort of

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magnitude where you're dealing with themes this strong, you know

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he's a movie actor, isn't he?

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He's like, he's quite big news for Star Trek.

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You need to bring in somebody that strong.

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I've just got one more little bit of track before we go in, if you

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don't mind, because this episode is directed by David Livingston

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who directs over 100 episodes of 90s Trek.

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Like he is the, you know, in-house, 90s trek director, and he can

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direct anything from, he directed Scorpion part one.

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So he absolutely can direct the hell out of an episode.

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He also directed Fairhaven.

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So when this script is somewhat lacking.

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He can get a little bit bored, but he personally says this was his

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favourite script, and this was his favourite directing

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experience.

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And you can tell because there's a lot of effort that's gone into

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the things that you and I usually complain about, the design, the

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lighting, like the crafting of the shots, certainly the work with

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the actors.

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Yeah.

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But Livingston wasn't supposed to direct this episode, um, and

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that is all, and it's all the fault of Column Meaney, who, uh, was

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not available uh, to record Hippocratic oath, which is the right

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episode.

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So that had to be.

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Yeah, it had to.

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Yeah, so he would basically do Star Trek under the understanding

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that, well, I'm going off to do a movie every now and again.

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They pay me more money, all right?

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If you want me in this show, then we can do other work.

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And so they did.

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And so they brought, um, Hippocratic 0 forward, which is directed

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by Renee Aubuchan Noir.

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So this was originally supposed to be directed by Renee.

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And he was quite a new director at this point.

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He done a couple of episodes of series 3 and then he goes on to do

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lots for, and I think he gets better about, he directs to

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quickening, which is really that in this season as well.

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So maybe, maybe this would have been as good.

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In Renee's house.

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I don't know.

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I think you needed a veteran to do this, you know?

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You wonder, though, whether an actor, given that it is a piece

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that doesn't really rely on action or anything very much more than

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the performances, he might have brought something to it.

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He is very good.

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Like, he's one of those strongest members of the cast.

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I don't know if you remember the performances in the quickening.

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It's the episode where Sid goes down onto the planet and they've

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all got that horrible fly virus from the Dominion. and he manages

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to drag some phenomenal performances out of everybody in that

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class.

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So maybe, maybe.

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But I think this is Livingstone's strongest character episode as

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well.

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So, and I can see the love that he put into bringing this thing to

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life.

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Oh, we should probably watch it.

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I think we should, but I have one very, very important trivia

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thing to tell people at home.

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So, excuse me, will you stay in your lane?

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No, no.

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So this episode was actually nominated for an Emmy.

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It was nominated for a Hugo Award as well, but it lost that to an

248
00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:43.679
episode of to an episode of Babylon 5, which is a show that I've

249
00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:44.340
never heard of.

250
00:12:44.820 --> 00:12:48.059
But it was also nominated.

251
00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:53.159
It was nominated for best makeup or best sort of makeup in a

252
00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:54.419
series for the...

253
00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:56.159
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

254
00:12:56.220 --> 00:12:56.759
God.

255
00:12:56.820 --> 00:13:03.720
And it actually lost to Star Trek Voyager's threshold. which

256
00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:08.100
usually finds itself in the bottom 5 of people's Star Trek

257
00:13:08.100 --> 00:13:09.179
episodes.

258
00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:13.200
So Emmy award-winning Voyager episode threshold, but this one

259
00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:14.759
didn't manage to win an Emmy at all.

260
00:13:14.940 --> 00:13:17.159
I mean, is there a guy?

261
00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:18.539
I would say no.

262
00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:21.179
Tom Paris's face in threshold.

263
00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:22.320
I can see why.

264
00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:24.779
They probably gave him the award just on putting that fucking mask

265
00:13:24.779 --> 00:13:25.139
on.

266
00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:28.799
Do you remember it?

267
00:13:28.860 --> 00:13:30.600
Oh, no, it's awful.

268
00:13:30.659 --> 00:13:31.440
It's dreadful.

269
00:13:31.500 --> 00:13:32.159
Yeah.

270
00:13:32.220 --> 00:13:33.960
Yeah, terrible.

271
00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:36.539
Well, thank you for that piece.

272
00:13:36.600 --> 00:13:38.100
I thought it was important that people knew.

273
00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:41.580
And, you know, we've just said all these glorious things about

274
00:13:41.580 --> 00:13:42.240
this episode.

275
00:13:42.299 --> 00:13:44.879
The old age makeup is fucking appalling.

276
00:13:45.059 --> 00:13:48.600
They just, they just can't do it in the 90s.

277
00:13:48.659 --> 00:13:50.759
And it isn't an affliction of Star Trek.

278
00:13:50.820 --> 00:13:54.059
It's a fiction of all television in the 90s.

279
00:13:54.179 --> 00:13:56.820
Well, we'll talk about that when we go in because I do want to

280
00:13:56.820 --> 00:13:57.299
talk about that.

281
00:13:57.360 --> 00:13:59.460
I don't think they've got better now.

282
00:13:59.460 --> 00:13:59.700
No.

283
00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:01.440
No I don't think it's ever very good.

284
00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:03.720
Just hire old actors.

285
00:14:03.779 --> 00:14:04.679
That's what I think too.

286
00:14:04.740 --> 00:14:06.299
All right.

287
00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:07.919
I'll count it in.

288
00:14:07.980 --> 00:14:13.860
I'm ready Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

289
00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:20.220
Oh, it was a stormy lights on the bayou.

290
00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:24.120
So this, I think, is really particularly interesting, and because

291
00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:27.600
Star Trek in this era doesn't really do subtext, and it does spend

292
00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:30.480
a lot of time making sure that you as an audience member

293
00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:35.340
understand what's going on, we open up, so we're panning across

294
00:14:35.340 --> 00:14:38.940
all of this stuff, and we've just seen a photo of Jake and Ben, and

295
00:14:38.940 --> 00:14:43.259
we've, he's just picked up the baseball, but we haven't seen him.

296
00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:47.039
And then he's going to go across to a box and he's going to, um

297
00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:51.899
inject himself with from a syringe a space, you know, injection

298
00:14:51.899 --> 00:14:52.919
thing. ibospray.

299
00:14:52.980 --> 00:14:53.399
That's the word.

300
00:14:53.460 --> 00:14:55.080
A hypospray.

301
00:14:55.139 --> 00:14:56.460
Yeah. he's going to inject himself.

302
00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:59.879
Now, we read this, I think, as an he's an old man.

303
00:14:59.940 --> 00:15:02.460
We read this as an old man.

304
00:15:02.460 --> 00:15:03.779
That's medicine, right?

305
00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:05.639
And then we don't think about it again.

306
00:15:05.700 --> 00:15:07.440
It's never referred to again.

307
00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:12.059
And then at the end, we discover that he's poisoned himself.

308
00:15:12.059 --> 00:15:18.360
And not only, like we work that out, and then we get to reevaluate

309
00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:20.639
what's happened so far again in that light.

310
00:15:20.700 --> 00:15:22.080
And I think that's really good.

311
00:15:22.860 --> 00:15:27.360
It makes sense of lines that are in this 1st scene where he

312
00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:30.000
suddenly says you've come today of all days, so I'm going to tell

313
00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:32.460
you my story because he has just committed suicide.

314
00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:40.080
So, so this is Tony Todd playing old Jake and the makeup is not

315
00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:40.500
good.

316
00:15:40.500 --> 00:15:43.679
And I wonder.

317
00:15:43.740 --> 00:15:47.220
Like, I think I think probably they made the right decision

318
00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:50.879
because you get Tony Todd in here, but I wonder whether it might

319
00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:56.639
have been better to choose a real old man to play this version of

320
00:15:56.639 --> 00:16:02.700
Jake and then just to make Cyra Glofton up to look older in...

321
00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:03.720
Oh, possibly.

322
00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:07.620
I mean, it wouldn't look any better. that's right But I think...

323
00:16:07.740 --> 00:16:10.620
This is the central, I mean, she's the visitor, right?

324
00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:14.159
I know that I know that Ben's the visitor as well, but she's the

325
00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:14.700
visitor.

326
00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:19.440
She comes and she talks to him and that's how we get to hear the

327
00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:19.980
story.

328
00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:25.799
And she's played by Andrew Robinson's...

329
00:16:25.860 --> 00:16:27.480
Garak's daughter.

330
00:16:27.539 --> 00:16:28.620
And she's terrific in it.

331
00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:33.299
But I just think like do other shows of this era do ageing

332
00:16:33.299 --> 00:16:33.779
makeup?

333
00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:36.000
Or is it a Star Trek thing?

334
00:16:36.419 --> 00:16:40.620
Yeah, the X-Files did an episode and it was magnitude's worse

335
00:16:40.620 --> 00:16:41.220
there.

336
00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:43.679
So it's, but genre fiction does it.

337
00:16:43.740 --> 00:16:45.720
Does normal TV do it.

338
00:16:46.019 --> 00:16:47.940
I think so. yeah.

339
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:49.440
I mean, I couldn't answer that.

340
00:16:49.500 --> 00:16:50.399
Yeah, it's hard to know.

341
00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:51.480
I've not really explained that.

342
00:16:51.539 --> 00:16:55.679
No, I would imagine it's a thing and it is just put in all this.

343
00:16:55.740 --> 00:16:56.279
Do you know what?

344
00:16:56.340 --> 00:16:58.919
I kind of agree with you, but I don't because I just wouldn't want

345
00:16:58.919 --> 00:16:59.820
to lose time.

346
00:16:59.879 --> 00:17:00.299
No, I agree.

347
00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:00.600
I agree.

348
00:17:00.659 --> 00:17:03.240
I think obviously there are other very strong actors that could

349
00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:07.019
have brought this to life, but he just brings us sort of warmth

350
00:17:07.019 --> 00:17:08.400
and loveliness.

351
00:17:08.460 --> 00:17:10.200
He brings something to this world.

352
00:17:10.259 --> 00:17:12.119
I think he's terrific that is unique.

353
00:17:12.180 --> 00:17:16.559
But what I think is that these scenes benefit enormously from not

354
00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:17.819
being very spacy.

355
00:17:18.180 --> 00:17:21.900
I mean, they're still in the Star Trek set. love this set.

356
00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:22.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

357
00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:24.059
No, I love this set, though.

358
00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:25.559
I think I think they do just enough.

359
00:17:25.619 --> 00:17:27.059
They've got that big fire in there.

360
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:29.519
The nice mirror up top.

361
00:17:29.579 --> 00:17:31.319
You've got the rain lashing on the window.

362
00:17:31.380 --> 00:17:32.940
It's enough to just sort of set the set.

363
00:17:33.059 --> 00:17:34.559
There's some computer panels and stuff like that.

364
00:17:34.619 --> 00:17:38.819
But I think the fact that there's no science fiction in this, you

365
00:17:38.819 --> 00:17:42.420
know, he used the, you know, whatever it was, the dermal

366
00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:44.460
regenerator or something to cure her thing.

367
00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:49.259
And I think that she's injured and he heals her so that we already

368
00:17:49.259 --> 00:17:53.099
have some kind of tactile relationship between them because later

369
00:17:53.099 --> 00:17:57.000
on they do actually become quite affectionate to one another in a

370
00:17:57.000 --> 00:17:59.220
like, not in an inappropriate way or anything like that.

371
00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:01.859
But there's a touch and stuff in that as well.

372
00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:03.720
Like their relationship develops.

373
00:18:04.140 --> 00:18:07.140
It's so strange how this works, though, right?

374
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:10.740
Because Night East Trek will spend like entire episodes trying to

375
00:18:10.740 --> 00:18:15.299
convince us of like a romantic chemistry between 2 actors in

376
00:18:15.299 --> 00:18:18.660
something like Voyages unforgettable or something like that. they

377
00:18:18.660 --> 00:18:19.440
never succeed.

378
00:18:19.500 --> 00:18:22.680
Within about 3 seconds of these 2 being together.

379
00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:24.240
I believe the chemistry between them.

380
00:18:24.299 --> 00:18:28.079
Like, what do they just work in some episodes or not?

381
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:28.740
Is it just the actors?

382
00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:30.180
I think I think it is.

383
00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:35.160
But I do think that the scene is a bit spoiled by the ageing

384
00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:37.500
makeup because it does add...

385
00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:40.799
I mean, the whole thing is artificial, but it is a...

386
00:18:40.859 --> 00:18:45.720
Because by the end of the episode, the scene between Jake and Ben

387
00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:48.240
and he's in even more latex.

388
00:18:48.299 --> 00:18:51.599
I just don't care because it's so moving, the performances are so

389
00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:51.839
moving.

390
00:18:51.900 --> 00:18:55.079
I'm not seeing the production deficiencies are gone in my head.

391
00:18:55.140 --> 00:18:56.400
Yeah, yeah.

392
00:18:56.460 --> 00:19:00.539
Look, I mean, and you know, you and I watch a lot of vintage TV.

393
00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:03.660
We are very used to skipping over production deficiencies to find

394
00:19:03.660 --> 00:19:04.799
some enjoyment in the thing.

395
00:19:04.859 --> 00:19:08.759
Yeah, yeah, but I think I think if these hadn't been Star Trek, you

396
00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:09.480
would never have done this.

397
00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:14.519
I think. you know, you would have cast someone older.

398
00:19:14.579 --> 00:19:19.799
And you might have considered having 3 people play, Jay.

399
00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:23.759
It's absolutely doing the thing that you say as well, isn't it?

400
00:19:23.819 --> 00:19:29.220
It's setting its story in the last line is him saying my father

401
00:19:29.220 --> 00:19:29.759
died.

402
00:19:29.819 --> 00:19:30.839
That's what the episode is about.

403
00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:33.599
And it is genuinely about that as well.

404
00:19:33.660 --> 00:19:35.579
Yeah, yeah, it's really good.

405
00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:38.819
Although, can I ask, right?

406
00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:41.640
Because I always get confused in these episodes where, you know

407
00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:44.339
they go off on an alternate. timeline and then they go back and

408
00:19:44.339 --> 00:19:45.480
make it exactly how it is.

409
00:19:45.539 --> 00:19:47.519
And I know you're going to say it's all fiction, so it don't

410
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:47.819
really matter.

411
00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:48.660
But anyway.

412
00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:51.000
Well, like, so did all this happen then?

413
00:19:51.059 --> 00:19:53.819
Did all the original timeline happen and then because of what he

414
00:19:53.819 --> 00:19:58.140
does at the end, we spring back and it will, because I pointed out

415
00:19:58.140 --> 00:20:02.160
to you this morning that in the alternate timeline, Jazia Dax is

416
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:03.119
alive, long into the future.

417
00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:06.539
Well, what do you think happens to um, what do you think happens

418
00:20:06.539 --> 00:20:09.900
to Melanie in this new future that's been created?

419
00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:10.799
She might never be born.

420
00:20:10.859 --> 00:20:12.599
Oh, no, I hope she's still.

421
00:20:12.660 --> 00:20:18.000
So remember that when Anorax does this in the year of hell, that

422
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:19.019
makes him a villain.

423
00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:22.440
He's trying to change the past because he's lost his wife and

424
00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:25.440
child, daughter, something.

425
00:20:25.500 --> 00:20:28.559
His family's died, and so he's changing history.

426
00:20:28.619 --> 00:20:30.599
It's effectively the same story.

427
00:20:30.660 --> 00:20:31.440
It is the same thing.

428
00:20:31.500 --> 00:20:33.240
Just told in a very different way.

429
00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:36.059
Well, because really it doesn't matter.

430
00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:38.880
None of that science fiction stuff really matters here at all.

431
00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:44.279
And they do a reasonable job of just being super vague about it.

432
00:20:44.339 --> 00:20:46.980
Like there is some technobabble, but basically we're not

433
00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:47.700
explaining it.

434
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:51.240
When it is properly explained to us, it's explained in a very, very

435
00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:51.960
clear way.

436
00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:56.940
In a way, so simple that even, oh, I can understand it.

437
00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:59.579
I was anchoring you through time.

438
00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:00.660
It's such a simple line.

439
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:02.279
I absolutely understand what they're saying.

440
00:21:02.339 --> 00:21:06.779
Also, it says something about what grief is like, you know, that

441
00:21:06.779 --> 00:21:13.619
so it's a proper, sensible, you know, it's a silly time nonsense

442
00:21:13.619 --> 00:21:18.539
thing, but it doesn't matter because it's telling the story and we

443
00:21:18.539 --> 00:21:19.859
don't dwell on the details of it.

444
00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:22.740
You just have the word grief there.

445
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:27.240
And it's worth mentioning that in the beginning, middle, and end

446
00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:30.960
of DS9's run, so you got emissary at the beginning where Ben Sisco

447
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:34.259
is mourning the loss of his wife, this episode in the middle, which

448
00:21:34.259 --> 00:21:37.680
absolutely deals with Jake losing his father, and then the end of

449
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:41.099
the series, which is Jake losing, it, like you said to me, it's a

450
00:21:41.099 --> 00:21:41.640
bit of a dry run.

451
00:21:41.700 --> 00:21:45.900
But what you leave behind and that sort of achingly longing end

452
00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:48.539
whereas looking out the window and we sort of pull back from the

453
00:21:48.539 --> 00:21:49.980
station in what you leave behind.

454
00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:53.640
The grief does sort of bookend this show.

455
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:59.579
With sort of everyone living in incredible lives in the sort of in

456
00:21:59.579 --> 00:22:02.400
the meantime around it and having great fun and political

457
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:07.019
machinations and being witty and wonderful and loving, and but it

458
00:22:07.019 --> 00:22:09.660
just means that those moments of grief really hit, you know

459
00:22:09.660 --> 00:22:11.579
because this is a show that celebrates life.

460
00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:15.839
But weirdly, it is bookended by grief and death.

461
00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:21.240
In a way, too, it is the kind of thing we see Ben reach a stage in

462
00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:24.660
dealing with his grief over Jennifer's death at the beginning, and

463
00:22:24.660 --> 00:22:28.079
we don't see the consequences of his disappearance at the end, and

464
00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:30.299
this episode ends with a reset button.

465
00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:32.099
And so everything's okay.

466
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:34.980
It's not a complete reset because Ben remembers it.

467
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:39.720
Um, Yeah, that surprised me, you know, that I made that choice.

468
00:22:39.779 --> 00:22:42.539
I think someone had to remember it otherwise.

469
00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:43.200
What the point?

470
00:22:43.259 --> 00:22:45.660
You know, it had to affect one of our characters.

471
00:22:45.900 --> 00:22:49.079
It's a bit like the resetting children of time, isn't it?

472
00:22:49.140 --> 00:22:52.920
where they all know that those 8000 people on that planet.

473
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:55.019
It has emotional.

474
00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:57.539
No, you can't you can't just have the reset button and no one

475
00:22:57.539 --> 00:22:58.200
remembers it.

476
00:22:58.259 --> 00:22:59.700
That's that's pointless.

477
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:00.779
That's waste of our time.

478
00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:04.440
I think Avery holds him just a little bit tighter after this

479
00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:04.740
episode.

480
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:08.039
The scene is so important to the episode as well.

481
00:23:08.099 --> 00:23:10.500
So Jake is writing a short story.

482
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:14.759
He's on this mission with his father to see the wormhole invert, do

483
00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:21.660
some magic thing, and he's still obsessed with this writing.

484
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:25.740
And Ben is there saying, look, just get up every so often and look

485
00:23:25.740 --> 00:23:26.519
out the window.

486
00:23:26.819 --> 00:23:34.200
And that's when Ben's not there to tell him to do that, he doesn't

487
00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:34.559
do it.

488
00:23:34.619 --> 00:23:37.200
That's what he loses when his father dies.

489
00:23:37.259 --> 00:23:42.839
And so we'll see this as it goes on because he, you know, the

490
00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:47.460
appearance of it, the appearances of his father do affect him in

491
00:23:47.460 --> 00:23:48.720
sort of various ways.

492
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:51.720
They pivot is life, yeah.

493
00:23:51.779 --> 00:23:52.680
Yeah, yeah.

494
00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:53.160
Yeah.

495
00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:57.180
You know what I took from that scene was it's that, and I find

496
00:23:57.180 --> 00:24:00.059
this idea more chilling than death itself is that you don't know

497
00:24:00.059 --> 00:24:01.200
when you're going to lose something.

498
00:24:01.259 --> 00:24:06.119
And you behave in such a mundane way around people most of your

499
00:24:06.119 --> 00:24:09.779
life and you never know when that's going to be the last time that

500
00:24:09.779 --> 00:24:10.680
you see somebody.

501
00:24:10.740 --> 00:24:13.319
And it's just a casual conversation where he's barely

502
00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:14.339
acknowledging his father.

503
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:17.400
And then he's going to lose his father and that scares me.

504
00:24:20.460 --> 00:24:25.559
Oh, here we go. a bit of wobbling, too, from some top quality

505
00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:27.599
wobbling in the chair from Terry.

506
00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:31.680
They make lots of experience on this bar now.

507
00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:35.160
I'll tell you what I really liked about this is how I don't really

508
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:37.079
find any suspense in any of this stuff anymore.

509
00:24:37.140 --> 00:24:41.400
But it's the fact that you think the danger's over and he smiles

510
00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:43.559
and he hands in the thing and then the thing is.

511
00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:44.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

512
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:45.960
Yes.

513
00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:49.319
Oh, and that that effect actually really sells the linking them

514
00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:50.400
together thing too.

515
00:24:50.460 --> 00:24:53.400
So there's a space reason they linked together, but there's also a

516
00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:55.319
grief reason that they're linked together.

517
00:24:55.380 --> 00:24:56.579
Yes, yeah.

518
00:24:56.819 --> 00:25:00.119
I would like to make a point in this episode as well.

519
00:25:00.180 --> 00:25:06.359
I think this has one of the best scores of any 90s strike episode

520
00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:09.180
and in the slower moments.

521
00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:10.740
The music is written.

522
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:15.839
It's so strong that, in fact, they use, um, pieces of music from

523
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:20.700
this in what you leave behind when Cisco brings Casti into the

524
00:25:20.700 --> 00:25:22.079
wormhole and says goodbye to her.

525
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:23.759
It's the same music from the visitor.

526
00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:26.640
It's Jay Chataway, and that is basically...

527
00:25:26.700 --> 00:25:27.539
He is very good.

528
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:28.559
He's one of the best.

529
00:25:28.619 --> 00:25:30.240
That's just me doing my bit for 93.

530
00:25:30.660 --> 00:25:31.200
No, no, no.

531
00:25:31.259 --> 00:25:34.019
I'm always happy to give Jay Chataway credit.

532
00:25:34.259 --> 00:25:40.259
I think they get the music right when they do slower scenes. when

533
00:25:40.259 --> 00:25:40.920
they're trying to do action.

534
00:25:40.980 --> 00:25:42.240
They just don't know how to score it.

535
00:25:42.900 --> 00:25:44.519
Look at this.

536
00:25:44.579 --> 00:25:46.859
Look how many people were in that set, though.

537
00:25:46.920 --> 00:25:48.720
I'm like, well, you know.

538
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:49.500
It's pretty amazing.

539
00:25:49.619 --> 00:25:53.640
Oh, I love this bit where Kira says, more than that, he was my

540
00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:53.940
friend.

541
00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:59.099
I, I really like...

542
00:26:01.019 --> 00:26:04.140
There's Miles there contractually for a second.

543
00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:11.099
Um, I really understand the Jake thing, like just that he can't

544
00:26:11.099 --> 00:26:15.240
say anything at the funeral because he just can't, he's lost his

545
00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:17.880
inexpressible and look at him there.

546
00:26:17.940 --> 00:26:18.779
Look.

547
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.259
Nathan, uh, uh, my mom's funeral.

548
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:24.059
She asked me to do a reading.

549
00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:30.240
Yeah, and I got up and I was almost vomiting tears reading this

550
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:30.660
thing out.

551
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:35.819
I was determined to do it and I was utterly unintelligible, but I

552
00:26:35.819 --> 00:26:36.480
did it, you know.

553
00:26:36.539 --> 00:26:38.339
I did, yeah.

554
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:42.900
Yeah, I tried to refuse to do anything, but then was persuaded to

555
00:26:42.900 --> 00:26:47.039
do a reading, but I read it at. you know, 90 miles an hour and sat

556
00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:48.299
down as quickly as possible.

557
00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:51.779
Do you know what's really very moving as well?

558
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:53.339
Is everybody else?

559
00:26:53.339 --> 00:26:54.240
Look, look at this.

560
00:26:54.299 --> 00:26:59.099
Like, so so Quark has just come into the bar and has told Nog that

561
00:26:59.099 --> 00:27:01.559
he can't go playing on the holo suite with Jake.

562
00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:05.579
And then he realises and comes back and tells him, no, no, you

563
00:27:05.579 --> 00:27:09.240
know, we're not as busy as they thought. off you go. before I

564
00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:09.779
change my mind.

565
00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:13.200
Do you know what they do with Corp?

566
00:27:13.259 --> 00:27:16.019
They basically, even when they have it being a nice guy.

567
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:17.099
He's still good.

568
00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:18.900
I just got it before I chose my mind, all right?

569
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:20.039
And of course he would do that.

570
00:27:20.099 --> 00:27:21.660
Of course he would do that, you know.

571
00:27:21.900 --> 00:27:26.579
Oh, and this moment here where Nog and Jake are talking.

572
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:27.299
Jake goes off.

573
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:31.019
Nog goes to go after him and he wants to say something to help

574
00:27:31.019 --> 00:27:31.319
him.

575
00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:34.799
And he doesn't have anything because what do you say to people, you

576
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:35.160
know?

577
00:27:35.220 --> 00:27:38.579
I, when I, when I worked at a hospice for the terminally ill.

578
00:27:38.700 --> 00:27:39.900
And I was working with families.

579
00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:44.400
They always said, don't presume to know how those people are

580
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:46.980
feeling and don't put words in their mouths.

581
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:48.059
You let them talk.

582
00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:51.420
You know, you let them open up, but don't you say, I know how you

583
00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:52.619
feel and things like that.

584
00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:54.299
And that's that's this here.

585
00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:55.740
What can he say?

586
00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:56.160
you know?

587
00:27:56.220 --> 00:27:58.559
And I think that's really good as well.

588
00:27:58.619 --> 00:28:05.819
Like, um, You know, the other big uh, event where someone is

589
00:28:05.819 --> 00:28:08.700
bereaved on this show and it really happens and has consequences

590
00:28:08.700 --> 00:28:10.799
is when warf loses Jadzia.

591
00:28:10.859 --> 00:28:16.200
And we do have a whole episode about their grief and, you know

592
00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:17.940
about his grief about her and stuff like that.

593
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:25.619
Um, But I think that this, like having this, having him, having

594
00:28:25.619 --> 00:28:30.480
him be someone who's grieving for quite a long part of the program

595
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:35.220
and and seeing how the other characters all deal with that, I

596
00:28:35.220 --> 00:28:36.900
think is really, really good.

597
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:40.380
And we're about to get some just lovely stuff with him and Terry

598
00:28:40.380 --> 00:28:43.200
and him and none of the other visitor.

599
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:47.640
You know, like, I think those scenes are really something.

600
00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:52.140
There's a sequence in a minute in front of a window between Kira

601
00:28:52.140 --> 00:28:53.460
and Jake.

602
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:58.259
And I think it's like it's so understated in its emotion.

603
00:28:58.259 --> 00:29:02.279
And it's more moving for it, you know, and it lit beautifully as

604
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:02.460
well.

605
00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:04.319
They're sort of silhouetted by the starlight.

606
00:29:05.099 --> 00:29:07.619
There's some effort gone into that.

607
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:08.339
I think so too.

608
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:12.299
Ah, here we go.

609
00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:16.680
Back to back to Alvin J.K. So, I mean, he's just being the

610
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:19.200
narrator at this and filling in the gaps.

611
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:24.900
And it's not that rewarding a scene for Melanie, but she does get

612
00:29:24.900 --> 00:29:26.460
heaps to do.

613
00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:27.240
Oh, yes.

614
00:29:27.299 --> 00:29:30.359
And so this is a weird kind of future as well, isn't it?

615
00:29:30.420 --> 00:29:33.420
Where we've only, we're only up to the Klingon war.

616
00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:37.079
And so the Dominion War never ends up happening and we just have

617
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:41.160
the tensions with the Klingons which sort of eventually resolve

618
00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:42.059
themselves in some way.

619
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:45.779
I'll just say, because I wouldn't normally do this, but I'm going

620
00:29:45.779 --> 00:29:47.940
to do this now because it really irritated me right.

621
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:51.539
When I was listening to the random trek episode of the visitor

622
00:29:51.539 --> 00:29:56.160
which featured a verity contributor, Elizabeth Miles in it.

623
00:29:56.220 --> 00:29:59.940
And she's going, oh, I don't want to watch this, you know, weird

624
00:29:59.940 --> 00:30:02.579
future, not our regulars.

625
00:30:02.579 --> 00:30:05.700
And she'd like shout all over this episode because it was set in

626
00:30:05.700 --> 00:30:09.539
an alternative timeline and I'm like, Liz, you missed the point

627
00:30:09.539 --> 00:30:09.839
darling.

628
00:30:09.900 --> 00:30:12.839
Like, like, like, it really irritated me.

629
00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:15.839
I'm like, yeah, of course you've got to run with it, haven't you?

630
00:30:15.900 --> 00:30:17.339
You know, in all of this episode to work.

631
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:22.140
Yeah, I think if, you know, like this, there is a limit to what we

632
00:30:22.140 --> 00:30:26.700
can do, we've, we saw this with Siege of AR 558 because it's

633
00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:31.980
serialised TV because we know from the beginning that he's this

634
00:30:31.980 --> 00:30:32.700
beautiful scene.

635
00:30:32.700 --> 00:30:34.559
Yeah.

636
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:36.359
She says so basically.

637
00:30:36.420 --> 00:30:38.640
If I tell you to go, you need to go.

638
00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:40.619
But she's not going to...

639
00:30:40.740 --> 00:30:42.660
And you know, it's worth remembering.

640
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:43.680
It's series one.

641
00:30:43.740 --> 00:30:48.539
She was this angry, unlikeable one, actually, because she was very

642
00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:49.079
vulnerable.

643
00:30:49.140 --> 00:30:52.200
But she was this sort of angry person who didn't want this life.

644
00:30:52.259 --> 00:30:54.299
And somehow in 3 years.

645
00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:55.500
She's found this sort of family.

646
00:30:56.220 --> 00:30:57.900
And now she's really protective of these people.

647
00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:02.039
It is that thing where he has no one left. you know, like his

648
00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:03.000
mother has gone.

649
00:31:03.059 --> 00:31:04.799
Now his father has gone.

650
00:31:04.859 --> 00:31:12.660
He's just here on this station doing what, you know, and and I

651
00:31:12.660 --> 00:31:18.059
don't know, like those 2 people who step up and they don't try and

652
00:31:18.059 --> 00:31:23.160
replace his parents or anything, but they're just so kind and so

653
00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:23.880
supportive.

654
00:31:23.940 --> 00:31:25.859
It's really lovely to watch, I think.

655
00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:28.859
I think because of this scene.

656
00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:31.920
I find that scene at the end of what you leave behind where he's

657
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:33.180
looking out the window.

658
00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:36.480
She comes up to him and puts her arm around him and he holds her

659
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:39.660
hand and they look out the window together and you're like, okay

660
00:31:39.660 --> 00:31:41.039
he's going to be all right.

661
00:31:41.099 --> 00:31:42.900
Yeah, she'll be she'll be okay.

662
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:43.500
Yeah.

663
00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:45.480
It's really nice.

664
00:31:45.539 --> 00:31:48.720
And, you know, and it does tap into the thing that I've always

665
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:51.059
said about Star Trek, and that is, I don't give a shit about the

666
00:31:51.059 --> 00:31:52.500
Techno Battle, the space problems.

667
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:54.000
It's the characters I love.

668
00:31:54.059 --> 00:31:57.359
I like Star Trek, but the character drama side of it, and it can

669
00:31:57.359 --> 00:31:58.680
do it extraordinarily well.

670
00:31:58.740 --> 00:32:01.920
Yeah, so here he is again.

671
00:32:02.700 --> 00:32:05.099
That's a little bit awkward.

672
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:11.880
It's still going to be blocked like nice tracker, right?

673
00:32:13.259 --> 00:32:17.339
It's worth noting, you know, they're both Avro Brooks and Saron.

674
00:32:17.339 --> 00:32:20.880
Lofton have beautiful smiles and they weaponize them on this

675
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:21.779
episode beautifully.

676
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:24.119
So, Yeah.

677
00:32:24.180 --> 00:32:25.019
Yeah.

678
00:32:25.079 --> 00:32:28.680
So there's that thing too, like sometimes you dream about someone

679
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:34.980
who's died, and like that's something that's super weird, you know

680
00:32:34.980 --> 00:32:38.160
or even that sort of, you know, you sort of think that maybe

681
00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:40.920
ghosts exist because you're so used to seeing a person that you

682
00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:43.380
see them when they're not there, like just in the corner of your

683
00:32:43.380 --> 00:32:43.740
eye.

684
00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:46.500
You see something and your brain goes, oh, it's that person

685
00:32:46.500 --> 00:32:49.140
because it's used to detecting that person all the time, but

686
00:32:49.140 --> 00:32:49.980
they're gone.

687
00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:53.339
And so I kind of like that here.

688
00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:55.259
Like the 1st one seems like a dream.

689
00:32:55.319 --> 00:32:58.380
The 2nd one is real and now the science fiction is sort of

690
00:32:58.380 --> 00:32:59.160
properly kicking in.

691
00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:05.759
How he tries to hold it together here and then he just crumbles.

692
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:07.319
And he holds his face.

693
00:33:07.380 --> 00:33:08.339
Oh, how are you doing?

694
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:09.299
It is so sweet.

695
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:10.259
Oh my goodness.

696
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:14.819
And then, yeah, he just falls to pieces and Avery kisses you

697
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:17.160
really gently kisses him on the face.

698
00:33:17.220 --> 00:33:18.779
Oh, it's so lovely.

699
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:24.539
Yeah, like, you know, I never had a relationship with my father. so

700
00:33:24.539 --> 00:33:26.339
to speak, um, who is still with us.

701
00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:27.539
Alas.

702
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:29.519
But boy, oh boy.

703
00:33:29.579 --> 00:33:32.400
I'll be a different person if I'd had a relationship like this.

704
00:33:32.460 --> 00:33:33.299
Oh my goodness.

705
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:35.039
It's so beautiful, isn't it?

706
00:33:35.099 --> 00:33:36.119
It's so beautiful.

707
00:33:36.180 --> 00:33:39.420
It is just that thing where he says, are you okay?

708
00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:40.500
isn't he?

709
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:42.599
Sarah Lockhen is a young actor.

710
00:33:42.660 --> 00:33:46.380
Like you could be forgiven for not expecting this sort of emotion

711
00:33:46.380 --> 00:33:46.740
from him.

712
00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:48.359
No, it's really good.

713
00:33:48.420 --> 00:33:49.200
It's really good.

714
00:33:49.859 --> 00:33:51.960
There was one bit here, though.

715
00:33:52.019 --> 00:33:53.640
The bit where it goes, don't leave me.

716
00:33:53.700 --> 00:33:55.799
Yeah, it's soap.

717
00:33:55.859 --> 00:33:58.200
You know, it's still a bit better.

718
00:33:58.200 --> 00:34:01.980
But then I do like the way he drops his voice and just says very

719
00:34:01.980 --> 00:34:03.299
quietly, don't leave me.

720
00:34:03.779 --> 00:34:05.880
That's a bit nicer.

721
00:34:08.940 --> 00:34:11.940
So Miles is in this, but just very briefly.

722
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:15.420
Do you know what's extraordinary about this episode?

723
00:34:15.420 --> 00:34:17.460
is that, yeah, we know we're not going to lose.

724
00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:18.719
No that's easy.

725
00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:22.199
So the fact that it moves to the extent that it does.

726
00:34:22.260 --> 00:34:22.739
Yeah.

727
00:34:22.739 --> 00:34:23.519
Yeah.

728
00:34:23.579 --> 00:34:25.380
It is strange though, isn't it?

729
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:27.539
Like it puts its cards on the table.

730
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:31.559
We know that in the context of a serialised TV show that

731
00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:34.019
everything's going to be back to normal next week.

732
00:34:34.139 --> 00:34:37.860
And we know because of the technobabble they've been saying so far

733
00:34:37.860 --> 00:34:39.480
there's going to be some reason to get in touch.

734
00:34:39.539 --> 00:34:40.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

735
00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:41.400
That's what they do.

736
00:34:41.460 --> 00:34:42.780
That's what they do.

737
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:47.940
Of course, but what we do instead, instead is that we tell it, like

738
00:34:47.940 --> 00:34:49.739
this is the primary narrative.

739
00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:51.539
Everything else is a flashback, isn't it?

740
00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:55.559
So this is said in the middle of the 25th century when, you know

741
00:34:55.559 --> 00:34:58.980
all of this stuff is happening and we're looking back at it.

742
00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:02.699
Like this is the focus that it gets the title, doesn't it?

743
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:10.079
If she's the visitor, um, then this gets this gets a title.

744
00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:12.300
That would be obvious, but it's a 2 tire.

745
00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:15.059
I was talking about her and...

746
00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:17.880
I love this bit where he goes, oh, I'm dying.

747
00:35:17.940 --> 00:35:19.860
It comes to an advert, right?

748
00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:22.800
No, no, no, I like it when he goes, oh, I'm just doing it for

749
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:23.639
attention, right?

750
00:35:23.699 --> 00:35:27.000
But I just sort of thought that Melanie might say, well, I was

751
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:31.619
worried for that entire ad break and now you tell me that you're

752
00:35:31.619 --> 00:35:32.579
not dying after all.

753
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:36.420
It's a bit of a shit way of getting a cliffhanger in at the end of

754
00:35:36.420 --> 00:35:39.659
act, whatever, act 3 or 2 or whatever.

755
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:41.699
It's a little bit shit.

756
00:35:41.820 --> 00:35:45.179
Oh, see, I loved all of this where he was taking an interest as

757
00:35:45.179 --> 00:35:45.420
well.

758
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:46.500
She's like, oh, no.

759
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:47.579
I want to be a writer.

760
00:35:47.639 --> 00:35:49.679
I'm doing a lot of reading.

761
00:35:49.739 --> 00:35:53.219
I don't know. these are really, really lovely suits.

762
00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:54.239
Yeah, I think so too.

763
00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:58.500
Again, it is sort of still 90s straight dialogue and stuff.

764
00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:03.420
But there's something nice about having that dialogue just be

765
00:36:03.420 --> 00:36:08.579
about things that are normal, you know, I remember reading an

766
00:36:08.579 --> 00:36:11.579
interview with of all people.

767
00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:16.679
The woman who plays the mother in the new adventures of Superman

768
00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:17.880
Lois and Clark, yeah?

769
00:36:17.940 --> 00:36:19.679
Play Clark Kent's mother.

770
00:36:19.739 --> 00:36:21.480
She in an episode of DS9, actually.

771
00:36:21.539 --> 00:36:22.320
Yes, sanctuary.

772
00:36:22.380 --> 00:36:24.719
I can picture that as an evil con woman.

773
00:36:24.780 --> 00:36:25.199
Brilliant.

774
00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:31.860
Anyway, she says that she loved doing that show because there was

775
00:36:31.860 --> 00:36:33.599
never any conflict between those characters.

776
00:36:33.659 --> 00:36:37.440
She said it was very easy to riot conflict, like manufactured

777
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:40.860
conflict between characters, but to write genuinely sort of

778
00:36:40.860 --> 00:36:44.400
sentimental scenes between, that takes a lot of skill and for, and

779
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:46.980
then as an actor, to deliver it in a way that's not boring.

780
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:49.679
Well, I'm bringing this up for a point.

781
00:36:49.739 --> 00:36:52.679
There isn't a moment of conflict between 2 characters in this

782
00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:53.579
entire story.

783
00:36:53.639 --> 00:36:56.460
Like, like, in the way that we would sort of manufacture

784
00:36:56.460 --> 00:36:57.360
complicates.

785
00:36:57.420 --> 00:36:59.940
It's just people kind of being nice to each other.

786
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:01.559
Which is why they should be boring as hell.

787
00:37:01.619 --> 00:37:05.280
Well, that's why they have to pull the dying shit, you know, like

788
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:08.820
and you could just about have made that work.

789
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:15.599
But it requires some kind of ambiguity, like we, we're

790
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:20.400
deliberately distracting our attention at the very beginning.

791
00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:22.800
We haven't mentioned it.

792
00:37:22.860 --> 00:37:25.559
We've all forgotten about it as we're watching this, I think.

793
00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:30.719
And so, you know, like you could have made him feel a bit of

794
00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:33.719
anxiety about that or a little bit of misgiving about it, but we

795
00:37:33.719 --> 00:37:36.360
can't do that at this point in the episode.

796
00:37:36.420 --> 00:37:39.659
Like my point is, is like you and I have pointed out many times

797
00:37:39.659 --> 00:37:42.179
especially in 90s trek, where there has been that sort of

798
00:37:42.179 --> 00:37:44.579
manufactured tension, you go, oh, I don't believe this for a

799
00:37:44.579 --> 00:37:44.820
second.

800
00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:47.400
Remember that scene between Cisco and Bashirin in the pale

801
00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:50.159
moonlight, you know, and you were like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

802
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:52.980
There's just, there's none of that.

803
00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:56.340
It's just... lovely people being lovely.

804
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:57.960
And that should be very dull.

805
00:37:58.019 --> 00:38:00.539
Oh, look at his... and it's not.

806
00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:02.519
Oh, and Tony.

807
00:38:02.579 --> 00:38:03.599
Look how pretty he is.

808
00:38:03.659 --> 00:38:04.920
Holy crap.

809
00:38:04.980 --> 00:38:06.659
He had those Klingon teeth before.

810
00:38:06.780 --> 00:38:09.179
Oh, he looks very fun aware, isn't it?

811
00:38:09.239 --> 00:38:10.500
Really, really handsome.

812
00:38:10.619 --> 00:38:14.039
I like how Aaron Eisenberg doesn't...

813
00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:16.380
Sidic Elfadil comes in and plays old.

814
00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:18.840
Aaron Eisenberg doesn't play old.

815
00:38:18.900 --> 00:38:22.380
He just lowers the register of his voice to suggest he's a bit

816
00:38:22.380 --> 00:38:24.360
older and I think that is a better problem.

817
00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:26.880
Well, so these guys, how old are we now?

818
00:38:26.940 --> 00:38:28.079
Do you know what I mean?

819
00:38:28.139 --> 00:38:31.320
Like, is it he's 20 years later or something?

820
00:38:31.380 --> 00:38:32.820
I don't know that they're saying.

821
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:34.320
Yeah, I think they say 40, don't they?

822
00:38:34.380 --> 00:38:35.460
that sort of age.

823
00:38:35.579 --> 00:38:40.139
But you know, I think Aaron Eisenberg is a much savvier actor than

824
00:38:40.139 --> 00:38:42.300
I thought he was, actually.

825
00:38:42.420 --> 00:38:43.380
Yeah, yeah.

826
00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:46.079
I mean, he has the advantage of acting under this sort of crappy

827
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:47.099
latex all the time.

828
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:49.980
So now it's just slightly different latex with a few more sort of

829
00:38:49.980 --> 00:38:51.360
lines on his cheeks and stuff.

830
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:55.260
You know what they get to do here as well, though?

831
00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:59.519
Not to contradict Lisbeth, but is they get to sort of play out

832
00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:03.360
what would happen in the future with this Klingon plot, had it

833
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:03.780
continued?

834
00:39:03.900 --> 00:39:06.539
Obviously, they cut it dead in series 5. they go back with the

835
00:39:06.539 --> 00:39:07.619
Dominion and they play that out.

836
00:39:07.739 --> 00:39:11.340
Well, this is like a nice glimpse with lots of little details.

837
00:39:11.400 --> 00:39:15.239
I do like the idea of the dilapidated station in the future with

838
00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:17.039
Maud propping off the bar, you know?

839
00:39:17.099 --> 00:39:21.719
But we do go back to this because there's an episode coming up

840
00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:27.900
called The Muse in which Jake starts writing the book that Melanie

841
00:39:27.900 --> 00:39:30.300
read twice in one night.

842
00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:35.880
And so this is something that could happen.

843
00:39:35.940 --> 00:39:41.280
I mean, you could object to, um, um, and we probably did object to

844
00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:46.619
all good things for not being the real future, but just showing us

845
00:39:46.619 --> 00:39:48.539
a possible future.

846
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:50.760
And, you know, if it was on TV.

847
00:39:50.820 --> 00:39:53.099
Well, I did object to that in endgame, didn't I?

848
00:39:53.159 --> 00:39:54.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

849
00:39:54.179 --> 00:39:57.059
But I was like, this is annoying because this kind of isn't what

850
00:39:57.059 --> 00:40:00.420
happened, but then you once again reminded me that it's all... yeah

851
00:40:00.539 --> 00:40:03.239
This is just as real as anything else.

852
00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:07.019
For 45 minutes, this is the future.

853
00:40:07.739 --> 00:40:11.099
I mean, like throughout throughout the whole episode as well, how

854
00:40:11.099 --> 00:40:14.639
Tony told it in the old, as the old, older Jake, who has committed

855
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:15.119
suicide.

856
00:40:15.179 --> 00:40:19.800
He gets weaker and weaker and he sort of, he, the pauses in his

857
00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:21.719
dialogue, like he, he's clearly dying.

858
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:22.380
Yeah.

859
00:40:22.380 --> 00:40:23.159
Yeah.

860
00:40:23.219 --> 00:40:24.780
And he looks so fresh facing.

861
00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:27.239
I know, just trying to drag him off to bed.

862
00:40:27.300 --> 00:40:28.199
Yeah, yeah.

863
00:40:28.260 --> 00:40:30.179
Why is he so, and again.

864
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:31.019
Okay.

865
00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:37.619
So this is the same situation that we had with Cisco and him where

866
00:40:37.619 --> 00:40:42.360
he was obsessed with his writing and she's taking him away from it

867
00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:47.699
because he needs to look up every so often and live his life

868
00:40:47.699 --> 00:40:48.780
right?

869
00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:55.199
And so she's doing what Cisco did, which is be a counterpoint to

870
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:57.780
his sort of tendency to get obsessed with things.

871
00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:03.000
But in fact, it's Cisco's arrival here, which is happening right

872
00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:04.619
now, that's going to ruin that.

873
00:41:05.940 --> 00:41:07.619
Isn't it?

874
00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:11.159
Because then he starts to get obsessed.

875
00:41:11.219 --> 00:41:12.539
He's working on his 2nd book.

876
00:41:13.019 --> 00:41:15.599
Well, it's kind of, it's kind of just been long enough that he

877
00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:18.960
started saying, okay, this isn't going to happen again, and then

878
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:21.960
it happens again, and then that just turns him down this path of

879
00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:22.860
right, I'm going to get him back.

880
00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:23.940
Yeah, yeah.

881
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:24.659
Yeah.

882
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:27.300
Because at this point, he's still writing.

883
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:30.960
He's not studying, like, all the techno battle to try and find a

884
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:33.840
way to find a solution, but this is the tipping point.

885
00:41:33.900 --> 00:41:37.920
This is the point where he basically pushes her away and becomes

886
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:40.019
absolutely obsessed with getting his dad back.

887
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:43.739
Yeah, and it was his dad who did that and it was Carina who did

888
00:41:43.739 --> 00:41:45.719
that, who prevented him from doing that.

889
00:41:45.780 --> 00:41:49.380
And now he lets his obsession take over.

890
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:52.139
This whole sequence hit.

891
00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:54.599
So this is the same scene we just had a minute ago where he's

892
00:41:54.599 --> 00:41:59.699
trying to smile, then Tony Todd just falls apart and Cisco smiles

893
00:41:59.699 --> 00:42:02.699
at him and says, what, don't think just because I'm not around, I

894
00:42:02.699 --> 00:42:03.960
don't want grandchildren.

895
00:42:04.019 --> 00:42:05.340
That's so beautiful.

896
00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:06.840
It's so beautiful.

897
00:42:06.900 --> 00:42:09.780
And it's all in his delivery because that line could have been

898
00:42:09.780 --> 00:42:10.139
terrible.

899
00:42:10.619 --> 00:42:13.679
Tony Todd is doing so well as well.

900
00:42:13.739 --> 00:42:18.539
Like, like he's so, like, he looks really relaxed.

901
00:42:18.599 --> 00:42:22.199
He looks really happy and then he's got Ben kind of calling him

902
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:26.099
back saying, you know, don't worry about Starfleet getting here.

903
00:42:26.159 --> 00:42:30.719
Just tell me what's been going on because he just wants him to

904
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:31.679
live his life, doesn't he?

905
00:42:31.739 --> 00:42:39.000
Yeah, and it is that sort of weird thing where like, you, when you

906
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:43.440
lose someone, part of what you lose is that they never know

907
00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:45.480
things.

908
00:42:45.539 --> 00:42:46.380
Do you know what I mean?

909
00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:50.400
Like my mother died before, like while I was still at university

910
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:54.780
so she never knew that I got a job that I was successful at.

911
00:42:54.840 --> 00:42:56.699
She never knew that I got married.

912
00:42:56.760 --> 00:42:59.400
She didn't know that, you know, I bought a house, any of those

913
00:42:59.400 --> 00:42:59.760
things.

914
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:02.280
She never found out about.

915
00:43:02.340 --> 00:43:08.699
And so having, having him given the opportunities, you know, he's

916
00:43:08.699 --> 00:43:13.679
dead practically, but he gets to sort of turn up and we just see

917
00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:19.920
his reaction to seeing how, how, um, how successful his life has

918
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:20.400
been.

919
00:43:20.460 --> 00:43:25.079
And he's even, none of it from Cisco's part is about himself.

920
00:43:25.139 --> 00:43:25.860
No, is it?

921
00:43:25.860 --> 00:43:28.679
And in fact, all he wants to know is what's happening with Jay.

922
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:29.639
What does he tell him to do?

923
00:43:29.699 --> 00:43:34.440
He tells him not to worry about, oh, look at that smile. holy

924
00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:34.860
crap.

925
00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:39.659
He's doing some method there with those tears, isn't he?

926
00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:40.619
think that's glycerine.

927
00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:46.019
But he tells him not to worry about Starfleet coming.

928
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:51.119
He says, no, what you're doing now matters, you know, like Jake

929
00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:53.280
says, oh, you know, I shouldn't have been worrying about that.

930
00:43:53.340 --> 00:43:55.139
I should have been trying harder to bring you back.

931
00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:58.440
And he says, no, no, no, no, you have a wife, you have this life

932
00:43:58.440 --> 00:43:59.219
you're doing these things.

933
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:00.420
This is what matters.

934
00:44:03.480 --> 00:44:06.659
It is absolutely mirroring what happened in emissary, isn't it?

935
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:07.559
He's stuck in time.

936
00:44:07.619 --> 00:44:12.480
Just as the prophets say to Cisco in emissary, you belong here, i

937
00:44:11.579 --> 00:44:15.239
e. you're stuck at that moment where Jennifer died.

938
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:18.179
You need to go on and live here. that's right. that's what he

939
00:44:18.179 --> 00:44:18.360
does.

940
00:44:18.420 --> 00:44:20.699
Unfortunately, that's not where Jake goes now.

941
00:44:20.820 --> 00:44:21.480
No, no.

942
00:44:21.539 --> 00:44:25.800
So this is the thing that tips him over the edge where he, he, Yeah

943
00:44:25.800 --> 00:44:27.360
so he stops riding.

944
00:44:27.420 --> 00:44:30.719
He was writing his 2nd novel after having his 2 books published.

945
00:44:30.780 --> 00:44:33.420
This is why he stopped riding before he was 40.

946
00:44:33.659 --> 00:44:36.480
So is what is what Melanie says.

947
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:41.219
It's in sort of, you're right.

948
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:42.480
The Melanie roll, right?

949
00:44:42.539 --> 00:44:44.820
It's a little thankless because basically she has to spend the

950
00:44:44.820 --> 00:44:48.480
entire episode reacting to the story that she's being told with a

951
00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:50.760
few sort of sweet moments where she talks about her own life.

952
00:44:50.820 --> 00:44:52.800
But actually, I think she gets in plot terms.

953
00:44:52.860 --> 00:44:56.880
She gets the most important moment where she says, you're going to

954
00:44:56.880 --> 00:44:57.900
cut the cord on it.

955
00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:01.440
I'm that bit, that bit...

956
00:45:01.500 --> 00:45:06.300
And I think what's good there too is that she doesn't try and talk

957
00:45:06.300 --> 00:45:07.019
him out of it.

958
00:45:07.019 --> 00:45:09.960
She doesn't object to his decision.

959
00:45:10.019 --> 00:45:11.400
She doesn't do any of that.

960
00:45:11.460 --> 00:45:14.280
And that's because, you know, Ben will get to do that when he

961
00:45:14.280 --> 00:45:15.539
turns up at the very end.

962
00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:17.579
But she just, she's listens.

963
00:45:17.639 --> 00:45:22.739
She's heard the story and she isn't going to judge his son.

964
00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:26.820
I can imagine as a father learning that your son has committed

965
00:45:26.820 --> 00:45:28.559
suicide and is about to die in front.

966
00:45:28.619 --> 00:45:29.519
I just can't even imagine that.

967
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:33.780
I think that that scene is sort of super odd, but we'll get

968
00:45:33.780 --> 00:45:34.199
there.

969
00:45:34.260 --> 00:45:35.579
Okay, so now we're in the future.

970
00:45:35.639 --> 00:45:37.860
We're wearing the all good things uniform.

971
00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:39.599
Oh, there we go.

972
00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:42.719
With some dreadful, dreadful old age makeup.

973
00:45:42.780 --> 00:45:44.159
Find this how we can take the piss out.

974
00:45:44.219 --> 00:45:44.880
Oh my god.

975
00:45:44.940 --> 00:45:48.780
So that, like, and I think Julian, I think that CD's doing a

976
00:45:48.780 --> 00:45:50.760
really, really crummy job here.

977
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:53.699
Like, he's doing a comedy...

978
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:54.239
Awful.

979
00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:57.900
We played old in distant voices in the last week, and they did a

980
00:45:57.900 --> 00:45:58.500
much better job.

981
00:45:58.559 --> 00:45:59.940
Yeah, it was pretty good in that one.

982
00:46:00.059 --> 00:46:04.019
He sort of carries himself and he hunches over and he carries

983
00:46:04.019 --> 00:46:04.980
himself sort of old.

984
00:46:05.099 --> 00:46:07.619
Here, he's just doing a strange odd voice.

985
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:08.519
Yeah, yeah.

986
00:46:08.519 --> 00:46:09.840
It's like an old man voice.

987
00:46:10.380 --> 00:46:11.039
It's dreadful.

988
00:46:11.099 --> 00:46:14.639
But I do like the way they snipe at each other like an old married

989
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:17.280
couple when Dax is like, well, that's the only thing that's kept

990
00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:19.679
me awake enough to listen to you going on about your fucking

991
00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:21.780
grandkids, you born out fart.

992
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:23.699
Yeah.

993
00:46:23.699 --> 00:46:29.219
But apparently, so the one thing that the Michael Taylor says was

994
00:46:29.219 --> 00:46:31.920
a bit irritating was O'Brien was supposed to be in all these

995
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:34.739
scenes, but obviously Colin Meaney's not available, which is why

996
00:46:34.739 --> 00:46:37.739
we changed the, um, and there was supposed to be a bit of banter

997
00:46:37.739 --> 00:46:41.760
between O'Brien and the ship, which, it's usually pretty good.

998
00:46:41.820 --> 00:46:42.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

999
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:44.820
But that's, that's, that's one area of 90s straight where you can

1000
00:46:44.820 --> 00:46:47.519
rely on a bit about that is O'Brien, yeah. that's true.

1001
00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:51.659
So this is so this is now 50 years later, right?

1002
00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:56.340
So that means that he's 68 at this point.

1003
00:46:57.840 --> 00:46:59.219
Yeah.

1004
00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:02.579
And they and so they do the sort of wormhole effect, don't they, in

1005
00:47:02.579 --> 00:47:04.260
a 2nd where he's beamed off into top space?

1006
00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:04.800
Yeah.

1007
00:47:05.099 --> 00:47:08.099
I think that's really striking that scene, though.

1008
00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:10.139
Just that that's sort of why it's like.

1009
00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:12.900
It just, because then it, there's no out, there's not sort of

1010
00:47:12.900 --> 00:47:16.079
nothing else to focus on, just the 2 actors and what they're

1011
00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:16.260
saying.

1012
00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:19.800
Well, two, I think it would have been a mistake to make the place

1013
00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:23.880
that Cisco was in real in any way.

1014
00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:27.539
Um, you know, it's not just that he can't get back.

1015
00:47:27.599 --> 00:47:32.579
You know, he's sort of dead in a way. you know, like we don't want

1016
00:47:32.579 --> 00:47:33.480
to think about any of that.

1017
00:47:33.539 --> 00:47:34.800
That's not what the story's about.

1018
00:47:34.860 --> 00:47:36.000
The story's about Jake.

1019
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:40.260
And like, I've said to you before.

1020
00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:44.699
You know, some people criticise Avery Brooks's acting.

1021
00:47:44.699 --> 00:47:49.139
And I do think sometimes he can go over a cliff, but that's what I

1022
00:47:49.139 --> 00:47:49.559
really like.

1023
00:47:49.619 --> 00:47:51.840
I really like the fact that he's a bit of a dangerous actor and he

1024
00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:56.519
can absolutely deliver amazing work and occasionally he can be a

1025
00:47:56.519 --> 00:48:00.119
bit melodramatic and...

1026
00:48:00.179 --> 00:48:04.139
But when he hits, I mean, it's some of the best acting you're

1027
00:48:04.139 --> 00:48:04.500
going to see.

1028
00:48:04.500 --> 00:48:08.039
And it seems like this where he's like saying, promise me you'll

1029
00:48:08.039 --> 00:48:08.280
do that.

1030
00:48:08.340 --> 00:48:10.739
Promise me, like, 0 my god.

1031
00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:12.119
In that voice of his, you know?

1032
00:48:12.179 --> 00:48:13.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1033
00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:19.019
I think I think he's more awkward when he has to play Star Trek

1034
00:48:19.019 --> 00:48:22.019
and do tech the Babble and things like that, but you give him like

1035
00:48:22.019 --> 00:48:25.440
a meaty emotional scene like this, like the scene in far beyond

1036
00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:27.239
the stars where he has the breakdown at the end.

1037
00:48:27.300 --> 00:48:28.980
You know, it's so moving.

1038
00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:32.460
Yeah, this is really good.

1039
00:48:32.519 --> 00:48:35.940
And so this is Jake's life has gone horribly wrong.

1040
00:48:36.179 --> 00:48:41.280
Um, and is he is this the point where he's going to explain that

1041
00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:42.059
to Ben?

1042
00:48:42.179 --> 00:48:47.159
Like, yeah, he says I've lost, I shouldn't have let her go, but I

1043
00:48:47.159 --> 00:48:48.300
had more important things to do.

1044
00:48:48.360 --> 00:48:52.079
Yeah, yeah, which is precisely what Ben told him not to do, you

1045
00:48:52.079 --> 00:48:54.840
know, like it's not getting me back is an important.

1046
00:48:54.900 --> 00:48:55.679
I'm not important.

1047
00:48:55.739 --> 00:48:58.260
You have a wife and child. you know you need to live your life.

1048
00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:04.860
And so, like, the grief thing doesn't completely work because, of

1049
00:49:04.860 --> 00:49:08.519
course, he's rewarded for this sort of weird behaviour and then

1050
00:49:08.519 --> 00:49:13.019
his father comes back and everything's fine again, you know, but

1051
00:49:13.019 --> 00:49:16.619
But he does have to live his entire life. yeah, yeah, yeah.

1052
00:49:16.679 --> 00:49:18.239
Oh, no, no, sure, sure, sure.

1053
00:49:18.300 --> 00:49:21.000
But it's... we are talking about a long time.

1054
00:49:21.059 --> 00:49:24.539
We might see it in 45 minutes, but he's seeing it across 70 years

1055
00:49:24.539 --> 00:49:24.780
you know?

1056
00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:26.099
Well, yeah, yeah.

1057
00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:32.880
You still have time to make a better life. and I like that.

1058
00:49:32.940 --> 00:49:35.219
I love that line because it's like, yeah, it's never too late.

1059
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:39.900
Yeah, but I, and it works too, because he needed Ben.

1060
00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:45.539
Like, when he tells Ben at the very end, just before he dies, that

1061
00:49:45.539 --> 00:49:49.920
the boy, you know, a boy who needs you more than I think you

1062
00:49:49.920 --> 00:49:56.699
realise, um, he's learned that he needs his father because his

1063
00:49:56.699 --> 00:50:02.219
father stops him from going off the rails, like stops him from

1064
00:50:02.219 --> 00:50:07.800
obsessing about things. reminds him to look up every so often and

1065
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:11.460
see what's happening around him because that's life. you know.

1066
00:50:11.519 --> 00:50:13.860
So there is something there.

1067
00:50:14.340 --> 00:50:21.599
I, uh, there is an emission in series 7 of DS9 and that is they

1068
00:50:21.599 --> 00:50:25.679
don't really focus too much on the Cisco and Jake relationship.

1069
00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:29.099
And I feel like that needed to come to a more sort of satisfying

1070
00:50:29.099 --> 00:50:30.659
conclusion than it does.

1071
00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:35.039
It ends up being Cisco Cassidy, doesn't it, in that last season?

1072
00:50:35.099 --> 00:50:38.099
Yeah, well, and the fact, which is Penny Johnson, Gerald.

1073
00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:38.760
No, not complaining.

1074
00:50:38.820 --> 00:50:39.239
No, no, no.

1075
00:50:39.300 --> 00:50:42.300
I mean, the fact that he comes back and says goodbye to her, but

1076
00:50:42.300 --> 00:50:43.139
not to Jane.

1077
00:50:43.199 --> 00:50:45.659
Yeah, people complain about it, which I think is raceable.

1078
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:48.000
It is.

1079
00:50:48.059 --> 00:50:51.119
But then, I don't know, it does make that last scene have a sting

1080
00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:53.519
doesn't it, when he's looking out of the wormhole?

1081
00:50:53.579 --> 00:50:54.360
Yeah, yeah.

1082
00:50:56.039 --> 00:51:00.539
Yeah, so this, so they've been up all night telling this story.

1083
00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:03.179
She came, you know, it's the next morning.

1084
00:51:03.239 --> 00:51:04.559
We only got one more night, Nathan.

1085
00:51:04.619 --> 00:51:05.460
No, that was it.

1086
00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:06.300
That was his night.

1087
00:51:08.579 --> 00:51:10.500
Yeah, God.

1088
00:51:10.619 --> 00:51:13.500
But this is like, this is like, or what, this is a bit like the

1089
00:51:13.500 --> 00:51:16.679
framing device in, in the Palm Moonlight, isn't it?

1090
00:51:16.739 --> 00:51:18.059
Like, it never happens.

1091
00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:19.380
Well, I was we're privy to it.

1092
00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:20.280
Yeah.

1093
00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:23.400
I was thinking it's like the, because we need to mention this

1094
00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:23.880
episode.

1095
00:51:23.940 --> 00:51:28.500
It's like the framing device in suspicions where...

1096
00:51:30.059 --> 00:51:33.239
Well, you know, I was thinking earlier, we haven't seen a storm

1097
00:51:33.239 --> 00:51:35.460
lashed studio landscape, since some...

1098
00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:36.239
No, that's true.

1099
00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:43.739
Oh, her reaction here, though. when she says you're going to cut

1100
00:51:43.739 --> 00:51:44.219
the cord.

1101
00:51:44.280 --> 00:51:46.980
And it's mostly done without dialogue.

1102
00:51:47.039 --> 00:51:47.579
It just looks.

1103
00:51:47.639 --> 00:51:49.079
Yeah, yeah.

1104
00:51:49.139 --> 00:51:50.460
Yeah, look at her.

1105
00:51:50.519 --> 00:51:52.079
She is really good, isn't she?

1106
00:51:52.139 --> 00:51:52.800
I think she's great.

1107
00:51:52.860 --> 00:51:56.280
Like they are churning out Star Trek at a rate of north.

1108
00:51:56.340 --> 00:51:57.659
This does not have to be this.

1109
00:51:58.139 --> 00:52:03.480
And that, I think the fact that he's he's dragging him forward.

1110
00:52:03.539 --> 00:52:08.099
He's the one who won't let him go, which is what the episode is

1111
00:52:08.099 --> 00:52:09.360
also about, isn't it?

1112
00:52:09.420 --> 00:52:13.500
That he won't let him go and get on with his life.

1113
00:52:13.980 --> 00:52:18.780
It's that kind of nice thing they can do every now and again of

1114
00:52:18.780 --> 00:52:21.300
marrying the sci-fi concept and the emotion.

1115
00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:22.199
You know.

1116
00:52:22.260 --> 00:52:23.460
They don't always get away.

1117
00:52:23.519 --> 00:52:27.059
I've mentioned this before on the show, but I think that there's a

1118
00:52:27.059 --> 00:52:32.880
Star Trek discovery episode in early series 4 just after Books

1119
00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:38.400
Planet is destroyed, and it's called anomaly, and it has book

1120
00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:44.400
investigating the DMA in a way that absolutely mirrors what his

1121
00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:48.239
relationship with Michael is like while he's undergoing all this

1122
00:52:48.239 --> 00:52:50.760
grief and he's tethered to the ship.

1123
00:52:50.820 --> 00:52:53.760
And, you know, he has to cut himself free so that he can

1124
00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:57.840
experience this on his own, you know, like it's, and, and I think

1125
00:52:57.840 --> 00:52:59.880
that sort of stuff is super clever.

1126
00:52:59.880 --> 00:53:04.440
And I don't think that Star Trek actually in the 90s does it all

1127
00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:04.920
that much.

1128
00:53:04.980 --> 00:53:08.699
But here I think it's really well considered.

1129
00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:12.840
And I guess the only niggly thing is that it works and we're all

1130
00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:16.440
back to normal and then we hit the closing credits, but that's, you

1131
00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:18.780
know, it's Star Trek. just has to do that.

1132
00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:20.099
The nature of the beast.

1133
00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:20.880
Exactly, yeah.

1134
00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:27.780
It's worth mentioning, um, in a moment where I, you know, you say

1135
00:53:27.780 --> 00:53:28.260
it's weird.

1136
00:53:28.320 --> 00:53:31.739
I think there's sequence in a minute with Ben and Jake when he

1137
00:53:31.739 --> 00:53:35.820
realises that he's killed himself is just stunning, stunningly

1138
00:53:35.820 --> 00:53:40.139
fantastic, that Renee Echevaria did the final rewrite on this

1139
00:53:40.139 --> 00:53:40.500
script.

1140
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:44.519
Michael Taylor wrote it, uh, and then Renee Chavaria, who I think

1141
00:53:44.519 --> 00:53:48.179
is the strongest character writer on DS9.

1142
00:53:48.420 --> 00:53:50.219
He did things like children at a time and things like that.

1143
00:53:50.280 --> 00:53:54.059
He knows how to sort of get under the skin of these characters and

1144
00:53:54.059 --> 00:53:55.679
boy, he did a good polish on this.

1145
00:53:55.739 --> 00:54:00.000
So I think there's something really beautiful about this.

1146
00:54:00.059 --> 00:54:01.260
So he...

1147
00:54:01.260 --> 00:54:07.500
We now know, and if we were thinking about that injection, we kind

1148
00:54:07.500 --> 00:54:10.860
of now know what that was because she's realised what's happening

1149
00:54:10.860 --> 00:54:13.860
that he's taken this poison.

1150
00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:15.659
So he goes to sleep.

1151
00:54:15.659 --> 00:54:20.880
And then there's this scene where he wakes up and he just sees

1152
00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:24.239
Ben's face and Ben has been watching him while he's been

1153
00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:25.320
sleeping.

1154
00:54:25.380 --> 00:54:28.739
And it's a weird situation.

1155
00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:31.739
It's nothing that anyone will ever experience, you know.

1156
00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:33.420
Um, and...

1157
00:54:33.420 --> 00:54:34.980
Oh, do you not watch your ever after?

1158
00:54:35.039 --> 00:54:36.420
No, no, no, no.

1159
00:54:36.480 --> 00:54:40.800
What I mean is, he's watching his son who's now an old man, far

1160
00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:43.260
older than he is.

1161
00:54:43.320 --> 00:54:49.139
Um, and he's just watching him and I can't, like, we don't learn

1162
00:54:49.139 --> 00:54:53.099
they don't make the mistake of telling us what Cisco is thinking.

1163
00:54:53.159 --> 00:54:58.619
We're just left to imagine what that experience might be like.

1164
00:54:58.679 --> 00:55:00.360
And it is that thing.

1165
00:55:00.420 --> 00:55:04.800
The thing that I really like about this is that it gives the the

1166
00:55:04.800 --> 00:55:09.360
dead parent, you know, we get to see from their kind of point of

1167
00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:12.719
view what that must be like.

1168
00:55:12.780 --> 00:55:14.400
I mean, it's not like anything.

1169
00:55:14.460 --> 00:55:15.000
You're dead.

1170
00:55:15.059 --> 00:55:16.860
But do you know what I mean?

1171
00:55:16.920 --> 00:55:20.400
Like the missing out on, you know, the fact that he, he, even

1172
00:55:20.400 --> 00:55:23.219
though he's dead, he gets to come back from time to time.

1173
00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:25.860
He gets to visit and see how his son is getting on.

1174
00:55:26.760 --> 00:55:30.480
A lot of people said to Avery Brooks in the sort of 1st couple of

1175
00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:34.500
series was sort of cold and unlikeable and that he really came

1176
00:55:34.500 --> 00:55:36.599
alive in series four.

1177
00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:39.360
Man, the war that he gives.

1178
00:55:39.420 --> 00:55:42.179
I think this is one of his strongest scenes, the one of his best

1179
00:55:42.179 --> 00:55:46.199
acted scenes in the entire run, and he doesn't have to raise his

1180
00:55:46.199 --> 00:55:47.340
voice or anything.

1181
00:55:47.400 --> 00:55:52.679
Just sort of look longingly and then react to this devastating

1182
00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:56.099
news that he's about to lose his son in this very bizarre way.

1183
00:55:56.219 --> 00:55:56.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1184
00:55:56.940 --> 00:55:57.659
Yeah.

1185
00:55:57.719 --> 00:55:58.559
Well, he he...

1186
00:55:59.219 --> 00:56:00.599
Yeah.

1187
00:56:00.659 --> 00:56:02.880
I just think the lighting is the lighting's helping as well.

1188
00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:04.860
Yellow, like, yeah, yeah.

1189
00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:05.699
Yeah.

1190
00:56:07.019 --> 00:56:09.539
Yes, and the shadow on his face.

1191
00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:13.199
I might drive this point home to, but like, you know, this is a

1192
00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:17.579
lot of black actors, you know, just being warm and lovely and it

1193
00:56:17.579 --> 00:56:19.619
is unusual on television at the time.

1194
00:56:19.679 --> 00:56:22.380
Well, I mean, just having, you know, like having a black lead was

1195
00:56:22.380 --> 00:56:27.059
a big deal, but that implies that you're going to have, you know

1196
00:56:27.059 --> 00:56:28.860
if you're going to cast relatives and stuff like that.

1197
00:56:28.920 --> 00:56:31.079
That means more roles for black actors.

1198
00:56:31.139 --> 00:56:32.519
And I think it's fantastic, you know.

1199
00:56:32.579 --> 00:56:35.519
And these 2 are really extraordinary.

1200
00:56:35.639 --> 00:56:38.460
And Syric and Avery are pretty great as well.

1201
00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:44.400
And I think, I think this, this is one of the best episodes in

1202
00:56:44.400 --> 00:56:46.139
terms of sort of representation of that.

1203
00:56:46.199 --> 00:56:50.219
The best ever is Rapture, where at the end of that episode, um

1204
00:56:50.219 --> 00:56:53.519
Cisco gets the visions of the prophet's taken away from him and he

1205
00:56:53.519 --> 00:56:57.059
goes back home and he's really pissed and Cassidy says to him, look

1206
00:56:57.059 --> 00:57:00.000
you may have lost something, but you've gained something as well.

1207
00:57:00.059 --> 00:57:04.500
And Jake and Cassidy and Cisco all come together. their hands will

1208
00:57:04.500 --> 00:57:07.079
come together and it's just a beautiful moment.

1209
00:57:08.820 --> 00:57:11.280
Oh my god, I can't watch this.

1210
00:57:11.340 --> 00:57:13.079
This really, it's really...

1211
00:57:13.139 --> 00:57:13.559
Yeah.

1212
00:57:13.619 --> 00:57:16.559
I mean, this is...

1213
00:57:17.159 --> 00:57:19.500
It's just how they play it, though.

1214
00:57:19.559 --> 00:57:20.219
It's so tender.

1215
00:57:20.340 --> 00:57:21.059
Yeah.

1216
00:57:21.119 --> 00:57:24.239
Yeah, because I mean, this is the bit where it stops being like

1217
00:57:24.239 --> 00:57:26.880
anything anyone's going to ever experience, I think.

1218
00:57:26.940 --> 00:57:29.760
This is a bit where it is very science fiction-y.

1219
00:57:29.820 --> 00:57:31.800
But I think we're so invested at this point.

1220
00:57:31.860 --> 00:57:33.360
Yeah, it don't really matter.

1221
00:57:33.420 --> 00:57:37.199
And it's funny, isn't it?

1222
00:57:37.260 --> 00:57:43.739
Like, it is, like, in a way, oh, you cheer when he lets...

1223
00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:45.119
You want him to let go.

1224
00:57:45.179 --> 00:57:49.139
And the fact that at the end of the episode, he hasn't let go and

1225
00:57:49.139 --> 00:57:51.900
that in fact, he's killed himself in order to bring his father

1226
00:57:51.900 --> 00:57:52.380
back.

1227
00:57:52.440 --> 00:57:57.059
Like in a way that's sort of a defeat, isn't it?

1228
00:57:57.420 --> 00:58:01.260
It is kind of a defeat, and we know that it's going to turn out

1229
00:58:01.260 --> 00:58:04.679
okay because here we are now we're back, you know, and

1230
00:58:04.679 --> 00:58:07.019
everything's going to be fine, and we're going to go to the

1231
00:58:07.019 --> 00:58:07.980
closing credit straight away.

1232
00:58:08.039 --> 00:58:11.760
You said like that, yeah, you know, he's rewarded for his strange

1233
00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:14.400
behaviour, but I think he's honest.

1234
00:58:14.519 --> 00:58:18.420
I think I like, you know, to be obsessed like that to make the

1235
00:58:18.420 --> 00:58:18.900
wrong call.

1236
00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:20.159
I don't think that's...

1237
00:58:20.159 --> 00:58:21.300
No, no, no.

1238
00:58:21.360 --> 00:58:21.960
No, no, no.

1239
00:58:22.019 --> 00:58:24.659
I absolutely think that that's what the episode is about more than

1240
00:58:24.659 --> 00:58:25.199
anything else.

1241
00:58:25.260 --> 00:58:29.579
And, you know, the last conversation that Jake has with Melanie is

1242
00:58:29.579 --> 00:58:32.340
about looking up from time to time and seeing life.

1243
00:58:32.400 --> 00:58:35.460
You know, that's what my father told me, and that's what he hasn't

1244
00:58:35.460 --> 00:58:35.880
been doing.

1245
00:58:35.880 --> 00:58:39.599
And he's only just started to get back to it by writing the new

1246
00:58:39.599 --> 00:58:40.199
novel.

1247
00:58:40.260 --> 00:58:43.320
But then he kills himself so that his father will come back.

1248
00:58:43.320 --> 00:58:45.000
And that seems like a defeat.

1249
00:58:45.059 --> 00:58:47.760
That's sort of like the ultimate act of his obsession because if

1250
00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:48.360
he got that wrong.

1251
00:58:48.420 --> 00:58:49.679
Yeah, well that's right.

1252
00:58:49.739 --> 00:58:50.400
He just killed himself.

1253
00:58:50.460 --> 00:58:52.320
Do you know what I mean?

1254
00:58:52.380 --> 00:58:56.699
Like that so it doesn't that doesn't quite fully work.

1255
00:58:56.760 --> 00:59:00.360
And so I wasn't surprised to learn when I read on the memory alpha

1256
00:59:00.360 --> 00:59:03.659
page that they didn't quite realise they were making something

1257
00:59:03.659 --> 00:59:05.099
quite as special as this.

1258
00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:10.139
And, you know, perhaps a lot of the stuff where it's about grief

1259
00:59:10.139 --> 00:59:13.860
and where it's about getting on with your life, you know, isn't as

1260
00:59:13.860 --> 00:59:17.159
conscious as maybe it's meant to be or maybe they don't find a way

1261
00:59:17.159 --> 00:59:21.599
out of it, you know, that, you know, any other way out of it apart

1262
00:59:21.599 --> 00:59:22.559
from what they come up with.

1263
00:59:22.619 --> 00:59:26.039
And I don't think it's a big flaw because I do think that it's

1264
00:59:26.039 --> 00:59:27.780
examined grief in all sorts of ways.

1265
00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:31.260
It's presented that relationship really beautifully.

1266
00:59:31.320 --> 00:59:37.440
It's shown us what grief is like and what, you know, like the

1267
00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:40.199
isolation of it and the way that people manage you and the way

1268
00:59:40.199 --> 00:59:43.739
that people, you know, people are supportive of you and all sorts

1269
00:59:43.739 --> 00:59:44.159
of things.

1270
00:59:44.219 --> 00:59:48.360
And then, you know, the fact that you might perseverate on the

1271
00:59:48.360 --> 00:59:52.739
person who's died or not got on with your life, you know, like

1272
00:59:52.739 --> 00:59:54.300
after a really traumatic thing.

1273
00:59:54.360 --> 00:59:57.239
Like all of that stuff is properly real, despite the fact that

1274
00:59:57.239 --> 00:59:59.760
it's sort of propped up with all of this in ridiculous science

1275
00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:00.239
fiction.

1276
01:00:00.300 --> 01:00:05.820
I mean, I don't think it's not as raw as Buffy's, the body, which

1277
01:00:05.820 --> 01:00:07.139
but then, of course, that's...

1278
01:00:07.139 --> 01:00:09.059
I may not be able to watch it.

1279
01:00:09.059 --> 01:00:12.119
That sort of set in our world with people that behave like ours.

1280
01:00:12.179 --> 01:00:14.460
And so, you know, there's not that sort of Star Trek distance

1281
01:00:14.460 --> 01:00:15.539
between the 2 things.

1282
01:00:15.599 --> 01:00:18.539
But I do think it's tapping into the same kind of emotion.

1283
01:00:18.659 --> 01:00:24.539
Yeah, I think I think that the difference is that this lasts for

1284
01:00:24.539 --> 01:00:29.280
one episode and doesn't have any ongoing consequences, whereas

1285
01:00:29.280 --> 01:00:35.460
obviously the rest of that year in which the body takes place, you

1286
01:00:35.460 --> 01:00:38.940
know, like that has ramifications all the way through the rest of

1287
01:00:38.940 --> 01:00:40.380
the show.

1288
01:00:40.440 --> 01:00:44.760
So, I mean, this does a thing that couldn't really normally be

1289
01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:49.860
contained in Star Trek and, you know, it will sort of happen again

1290
01:00:49.860 --> 01:00:53.460
I guess, you know, at the beginning of series 7, but we'll get it

1291
01:00:53.460 --> 01:00:56.099
out of the way as quickly as we can so that we can get on with the

1292
01:00:56.099 --> 01:00:58.019
adventures and the Dominion War and stuff.

1293
01:00:58.079 --> 01:01:01.619
I would say they kind of do that with Buffy as well, is they have

1294
01:01:01.619 --> 01:01:04.019
a couple of episodes where they mourn Joyce and then they just go

1295
01:01:04.019 --> 01:01:05.340
and we're telling the glory story.

1296
01:01:05.400 --> 01:01:06.000
Series 5.

1297
01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:08.159
Because they've got some...

1298
01:01:08.219 --> 01:01:08.820
That's right.

1299
01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:11.880
But I mean, series 6 is her life going off the rails completely

1300
01:01:11.880 --> 01:01:16.739
partly because of the lack of any kind of adult figure, like her

1301
01:01:16.739 --> 01:01:19.559
failing at adulthood is a big theme.

1302
01:01:19.619 --> 01:01:23.340
Two things, I'd like to say, before we out this episode.

1303
01:01:23.400 --> 01:01:30.840
One is, I think this is a tipping point for DS9 in that, I think

1304
01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:34.019
season 4 was a new mission statement.

1305
01:01:34.139 --> 01:01:36.420
TNG is off the air after two.

1306
01:01:36.480 --> 01:01:39.960
They've had a sort of a reasonably successful but not entirely

1307
01:01:39.960 --> 01:01:41.699
successful season three.

1308
01:01:42.059 --> 01:01:47.820
And Voyager has just started alongside season 4, DS9, and they're

1309
01:01:47.820 --> 01:01:50.280
like, no, we are fucking going like gangbusters.

1310
01:01:50.340 --> 01:01:52.739
We are going to make this show brilliant.

1311
01:01:52.800 --> 01:01:57.239
You've just had Way of the Warrior, which was like a big political

1312
01:01:57.239 --> 01:01:58.860
all the cast, all the guest characters.

1313
01:01:58.980 --> 01:02:03.420
You probably don't think it is, but big budget action set piece at

1314
01:02:03.420 --> 01:02:04.260
the end of the story.

1315
01:02:04.320 --> 01:02:05.280
No, no.

1316
01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:09.239
And it's, they change the status quo, the political status quo

1317
01:02:09.239 --> 01:02:12.539
like the whole background that Star Trek was set against. coming

1318
01:02:12.539 --> 01:02:15.480
in and shaking things up, then you follow that up double whammy

1319
01:02:15.480 --> 01:02:16.440
with the visitor.

1320
01:02:16.500 --> 01:02:17.519
Just around the corner.

1321
01:02:17.579 --> 01:02:20.400
You've got little green men and old man Bashir, who are the best

1322
01:02:20.400 --> 01:02:25.139
comedy episodes they ever did, rejoined where they finally do a

1323
01:02:25.139 --> 01:02:27.900
same-sex romance in Star Trek.

1324
01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:32.519
Like, they are literally set in their store to make this the best

1325
01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:34.079
of 90s trek in series 4.

1326
01:02:34.260 --> 01:02:39.059
And I think this season is justifiably celebrated.

1327
01:02:39.059 --> 01:02:43.440
And like a visitor is the visitor is one of the big reasons as to

1328
01:02:43.440 --> 01:02:43.679
why.

1329
01:02:43.739 --> 01:02:48.599
And the 2nd thing I want to say was that I've said to you before

1330
01:02:48.599 --> 01:02:53.340
that I watched DS9 alongside my mum from beginning to end.

1331
01:02:53.400 --> 01:02:55.679
It's one of 2 shows, what I watched from beginning to end with my

1332
01:02:55.679 --> 01:02:55.920
mum.

1333
01:02:55.980 --> 01:02:58.800
And because 69 had a lot of issues shows.

1334
01:02:58.860 --> 01:03:02.519
You know, it lent into a lot of different themes, and my mother

1335
01:03:02.519 --> 01:03:07.139
was one to talk long into the night and argue on a dime about

1336
01:03:07.139 --> 01:03:07.500
things.

1337
01:03:07.500 --> 01:03:12.059
And it kind of got me stimulated and thinking and sort of getting

1338
01:03:12.059 --> 01:03:15.900
my critical faculties going, which I think has explained a lot of

1339
01:03:15.900 --> 01:03:17.219
where I've ended up now.

1340
01:03:17.219 --> 01:03:20.280
And I remember I was watching the visitor.

1341
01:03:20.340 --> 01:03:25.679
And we talked about grief because she'd lost my grandfather not

1342
01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:26.460
long before this.

1343
01:03:26.519 --> 01:03:30.000
And so we talked about sort of losing family members and things

1344
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:30.360
like that.

1345
01:03:30.420 --> 01:03:36.059
And then she shared her beliefs of the afterlife and what happens

1346
01:03:36.059 --> 01:03:37.199
after you die.

1347
01:03:37.260 --> 01:03:41.159
And we talked about that a lot, uh, for years to come because my

1348
01:03:41.159 --> 01:03:45.480
mum was a spiritualist and and a medium and all of these things, I

1349
01:03:45.480 --> 01:03:46.380
personally don't believe it.

1350
01:03:46.380 --> 01:03:47.940
Oh boy, do we argue about these things?

1351
01:03:48.059 --> 01:03:49.559
But she absolutely did.

1352
01:03:49.619 --> 01:03:54.900
And she had like, um, some strong beliefs about what happens when

1353
01:03:54.900 --> 01:04:01.320
you pass on, which meant that when she was dying of cancer, uh, I

1354
01:04:01.320 --> 01:04:05.760
understood how she felt about passing and the rest of my family

1355
01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:06.300
didn't.

1356
01:04:06.360 --> 01:04:08.579
They just didn't get it at all and they wouldn't talk about it and

1357
01:04:08.579 --> 01:04:10.679
they wouldn't talk about the fact that she was going to be gone.

1358
01:04:10.739 --> 01:04:14.340
And she was celebrating the fact that not that the end of her life

1359
01:04:14.340 --> 01:04:16.920
but just what was going to happen afterwards and what she believed

1360
01:04:16.920 --> 01:04:17.219
in.

1361
01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:21.420
And this was our starting point on that journey.

1362
01:04:21.480 --> 01:04:24.900
So this episode is very important to me for a lot of different

1363
01:04:24.900 --> 01:04:25.380
reasons.

1364
01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:27.300
I think it's a beautiful episode of Star Trek.

1365
01:04:27.420 --> 01:04:32.219
But for the conversations that I had remember because of it, what

1366
01:04:32.219 --> 01:04:36.539
I learned and then how I was able to sort of use that later on.

1367
01:04:36.900 --> 01:04:39.059
It means a great deal to me.

1368
01:04:45.119 --> 01:04:48.059
All right, it's the end of the episode, and it's time for us to

1369
01:04:48.059 --> 01:04:52.440
decide what we're going to watch next, and it's my turn to press

1370
01:04:52.440 --> 01:04:53.039
the button.

1371
01:04:53.820 --> 01:04:59.039
And I've decided that we are going to do some more 90s track.

1372
01:04:59.099 --> 01:05:06.000
And in fact, we are going to choose an episode from the series

1373
01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:10.199
that we've done the least often and that's Star Trek Enterprise.

1374
01:05:10.260 --> 01:05:13.260
Oh, you always, you always choose at a price.

1375
01:05:13.320 --> 01:05:15.420
I really want to do enterprise.

1376
01:05:15.480 --> 01:05:17.820
And anything will be better than a night in sick, babe.

1377
01:05:17.880 --> 01:05:20.159
Night in Sick Bay was so great.

1378
01:05:20.219 --> 01:05:21.840
And so I desperately want to do more.

1379
01:05:21.900 --> 01:05:28.320
It would be kind of nice to do something from later in the shows

1380
01:05:28.320 --> 01:05:28.619
right?

1381
01:05:28.739 --> 01:05:30.420
Series four. which we haven't touched.

1382
01:05:30.480 --> 01:05:32.280
No, we haven't touched series 3 either.

1383
01:05:32.340 --> 01:05:34.019
We haven't done a series 3 episode, either.

1384
01:05:34.079 --> 01:05:34.619
Okay.

1385
01:05:34.679 --> 01:05:36.119
Well, let's make that a condition.

1386
01:05:36.179 --> 01:05:37.079
There's gotta be latter one.

1387
01:05:37.139 --> 01:05:37.500
Let see.

1388
01:05:37.559 --> 01:05:38.219
All right.

1389
01:05:38.400 --> 01:05:43.500
Okay, our 1st random Star Trek Enterprise episode is proving

1390
01:05:43.500 --> 01:05:46.199
ground series three, episode 13.

1391
01:05:47.219 --> 01:05:48.960
Yeah, okay.

1392
01:05:49.019 --> 01:05:53.280
So it's got Jeffrey Coombes in it. and still playing an evil

1393
01:05:53.280 --> 01:05:56.699
megalomaniac computer in lower decks, and it's not really a Star

1394
01:05:56.699 --> 01:05:58.380
Trek series if he's not in it.

1395
01:05:58.440 --> 01:05:59.880
What do we think?

1396
01:05:59.940 --> 01:06:01.980
I have no idea.

1397
01:06:02.039 --> 01:06:06.420
Well, this is this is sort of halfway through series three.

1398
01:06:06.480 --> 01:06:08.219
And it's a massive Zindiarc.

1399
01:06:08.219 --> 01:06:11.219
And it's probably the point where they're saying, well, look, we

1400
01:06:11.219 --> 01:06:13.559
need a new element now and Jeffrey Coombs is always popular.

1401
01:06:13.619 --> 01:06:16.679
So it's bringing back a shran because, you know, people probably

1402
01:06:16.679 --> 01:06:19.260
getting a bit tired of this super weapon now and those floating

1403
01:06:19.260 --> 01:06:20.039
turtles and things.

1404
01:06:20.099 --> 01:06:23.460
Um, I don't know, maybe press it again.

1405
01:06:23.519 --> 01:06:24.300
Yeah.

1406
01:06:24.360 --> 01:06:26.820
That seems a bit middle of the road, the middle of the road once

1407
01:06:26.820 --> 01:06:27.239
sometimes.

1408
01:06:27.300 --> 01:06:28.500
Let me try another one.

1409
01:06:29.579 --> 01:06:33.719
Your round of Star Trek Enterprise episode is these other

1410
01:06:33.719 --> 01:06:34.320
voyages.

1411
01:06:35.460 --> 01:06:38.579
Season 4, episode 22.

1412
01:06:40.619 --> 01:06:44.219
See, I am tempted, but I don't think we should knock out all the

1413
01:06:44.219 --> 01:06:45.719
big ones. too.

1414
01:06:45.780 --> 01:06:51.179
So we've done the Voyager finale and we've done the next

1415
01:06:51.179 --> 01:06:52.019
generation finale.

1416
01:06:52.679 --> 01:06:54.599
Yeah, maybe you're right.

1417
01:06:55.019 --> 01:06:57.000
It's tempting though.

1418
01:06:57.059 --> 01:06:58.199
I don't think I've ever seen it.

1419
01:06:58.260 --> 01:07:00.840
I do know why everyone's so cross about it though.

1420
01:07:02.099 --> 01:07:04.380
It's got Marina in it.

1421
01:07:04.440 --> 01:07:04.860
That's true.

1422
01:07:04.920 --> 01:07:08.519
Okay, season two, episode 16, future tents.

1423
01:07:08.639 --> 01:07:11.519
Oh, that's the one with the spaceship that you thought was really

1424
01:07:11.519 --> 01:07:11.940
boring.

1425
01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:13.860
Oh yeah, God, that was boring.

1426
01:07:14.159 --> 01:07:18.539
Season 2, episode 21, The Breach.

1427
01:07:18.599 --> 01:07:20.039
No idea.

1428
01:07:20.099 --> 01:07:20.820
Okay, say it again.

1429
01:07:20.880 --> 01:07:22.320
All right.

1430
01:07:22.380 --> 01:07:25.980
Season four, episode 21 Terra Prime.

1431
01:07:26.219 --> 01:07:29.280
Oh, yeah, that's a two-parter.

1432
01:07:29.340 --> 01:07:35.699
It's a 2 parter and it's, I think it's really, it's not like

1433
01:07:35.699 --> 01:07:39.780
amazingly good, but it is strong and it does bring together the

1434
01:07:39.780 --> 01:07:40.800
themes of series 4.

1435
01:07:41.039 --> 01:07:43.199
Is it the very end of series four?

1436
01:07:43.260 --> 01:07:46.920
No, it's a two-parter at the end of series four.

1437
01:07:46.980 --> 01:07:47.159
Yeah.

1438
01:07:47.219 --> 01:07:48.780
So it's just a 4 that's on a voyage.

1439
01:07:48.840 --> 01:07:51.239
It's kind of the last 2 regular episodes, right?

1440
01:07:51.300 --> 01:07:51.960
Before...

1441
01:07:51.960 --> 01:07:53.400
Effectively.

1442
01:07:53.460 --> 01:07:55.679
This is the this is the enterprise tonight.

1443
01:07:55.739 --> 01:07:59.760
Because these are the voyages are set in TNG.

1444
01:07:59.820 --> 01:08:02.820
So this is like the last proper enterprise episode.

1445
01:08:02.880 --> 01:08:04.679
Everyone gets something to do.

1446
01:08:04.739 --> 01:08:08.639
There's some really dreadful and some really impressive special

1447
01:08:08.639 --> 01:08:10.199
effects CGR sequences.

1448
01:08:10.440 --> 01:08:14.639
I think you'll find it quite interesting. whether you'll like it

1449
01:08:14.639 --> 01:08:16.979
or not, I don't know, whether you're like what it's trying to

1450
01:08:16.979 --> 01:08:17.340
say.

1451
01:08:17.399 --> 01:08:18.300
I don't know.

1452
01:08:18.420 --> 01:08:21.420
And I think that's a really interesting one to do.

1453
01:08:21.840 --> 01:08:25.859
So that means that we need to watch 2 episodes then because our

1454
01:08:25.859 --> 01:08:28.140
rule is if it's a 2 parter.

1455
01:08:28.199 --> 01:08:31.079
We watch both parts.

1456
01:08:31.140 --> 01:08:36.960
And so that means we'll be doing demons and then Terra Prime.

1457
01:08:37.020 --> 01:08:42.779
And so this is about like xenophobes and stuff on earth, isn't

1458
01:08:42.779 --> 01:08:43.020
it?

1459
01:08:43.079 --> 01:08:44.760
It's like white supremacists.

1460
01:08:44.819 --> 01:08:46.319
Throughout season four.

1461
01:08:46.380 --> 01:08:50.039
We're getting hints and whispers that all the alien races are

1462
01:08:50.039 --> 01:08:52.859
starting to disappear from Earth.

1463
01:08:52.920 --> 01:08:56.579
And this shows you the extremist group that's taking care of that

1464
01:08:56.579 --> 01:09:00.720
and they won earth for the earth. and everyone else gone.

1465
01:09:00.779 --> 01:09:03.960
So it's basically it is leaning into the Star Trek premise and

1466
01:09:03.960 --> 01:09:06.239
it's a big it's a big threat to the basic.

1467
01:09:06.300 --> 01:09:09.300
But it's also about the forming of the Federation as well.

1468
01:09:09.359 --> 01:09:11.220
It's a really interesting one.

1469
01:09:11.279 --> 01:09:14.760
It's got a subplot with Malcolm Reed, where it turns out he's

1470
01:09:14.760 --> 01:09:15.899
something to do with Section 31.

1471
01:09:16.079 --> 01:09:17.939
Like everyone sort of gets something to do.

1472
01:09:18.000 --> 01:09:19.199
There's a bit of action.

1473
01:09:19.260 --> 01:09:20.520
Arch is really good in it.

1474
01:09:20.579 --> 01:09:23.399
I think this is this is one.

1475
01:09:23.460 --> 01:09:24.239
All right, that'd be great.

1476
01:09:24.300 --> 01:09:24.960
I looking forward to that.

1477
01:09:25.020 --> 01:09:25.619
Okay.

1478
01:09:33.300 --> 01:09:37.260
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford

1479
01:09:37.260 --> 01:09:38.520
and Nathan Bottomleave.

1480
01:09:38.579 --> 01:09:41.760
We're online at untitledstar trekroject.com where you can find

1481
01:09:41.760 --> 01:09:44.340
links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.

1482
01:09:44.399 --> 01:09:48.420
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran and the theme was composed

1483
01:09:48.420 --> 01:09:49.739
by Cameron Lamb.

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01:09:49.800 --> 01:09:53.880
This episode was recorded on the 29th of December 2022 and

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01:09:53.880 --> 01:09:56.460
released on the 6th of January, 2023.

1486
01:09:56.699 --> 01:10:01.680
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Enterprise, Demons and Terra

1487
01:10:01.680 --> 01:10:02.220
Prime.

1488
01:10:17.279 --> 01:10:18.180
Wow.

1489
01:10:18.899 --> 01:10:20.159
You're probably gonna hate it, you know.

1490
01:10:24.239 --> 01:10:24.779
Just any of that.

1491
01:10:24.840 --> 01:10:25.619
Yeah, that's it.

1492
01:10:25.680 --> 01:10:27.479
I wonder if I do.

1493
01:10:27.539 --> 01:10:28.619
That would be really interesting.

1494
01:10:28.979 --> 01:10:32.340
I'm not entirely sure because I thought you were going to love

1495
01:10:32.340 --> 01:10:32.819
series 3.

1496
01:10:34.739 --> 01:10:36.119
Yeah.

1497
01:10:36.180 --> 01:10:38.039
I can't judge you anymore.

1498
01:10:38.100 --> 01:10:41.279
But, you know, like, it does do something different, but it does

1499
01:10:41.279 --> 01:10:45.060
something different by being really awful, you know, like, and I

1500
01:10:45.060 --> 01:10:47.699
lost my shit when it was just like, all right, we're going to get

1501
01:10:47.699 --> 01:10:50.279
the Illyrians and we're just going to steal their warp core and

1502
01:10:50.279 --> 01:10:50.939
leave them there.

1503
01:10:51.000 --> 01:10:52.979
Just like, well, fuck off then.

1504
01:10:53.039 --> 01:10:53.699
Don't do that.

1505
01:10:54.000 --> 01:10:55.920
What's the point of you?

1506
01:10:55.979 --> 01:10:59.819
This has got, in a big guest star, this has got...

1507
01:10:59.819 --> 01:11:00.479
James Cromwell.

1508
01:11:00.539 --> 01:11:01.560
Fabulous.

1509
01:11:02.460 --> 01:11:03.420
It's got James Cromwell.

1510
01:11:03.479 --> 01:11:08.340
It's got Harry, what's his face, the mayor from Buffy in a big

1511
01:11:08.340 --> 01:11:11.640
role. and the guy playing the villain is great.

1512
01:11:11.880 --> 01:11:16.140
He's really, really good. looks like Richard Nixon. great.

1513
01:11:16.199 --> 01:11:20.460
Yeah, he's got some he's got some serious gravitas about him.

1514
01:11:20.520 --> 01:11:21.300
Okay.

1515
01:11:21.359 --> 01:11:22.500
Yeah, it's good.

1516
01:11:22.560 --> 01:11:23.039
It's good.

1517
01:11:23.100 --> 01:11:25.560
They do a terrorist act on...

1518
01:11:25.859 --> 01:11:26.159
Is it?

1519
01:11:26.220 --> 01:11:27.300
No, it's not utopia pleasure.

1520
01:11:27.359 --> 01:11:28.680
I haven't got that there. on Jupiter?

1521
01:11:29.760 --> 01:11:32.279
It is, yeah, and it's not a bad sequence as well.

1522
01:11:32.340 --> 01:11:33.119
Obviously, Joey.

1523
01:11:33.180 --> 01:11:33.479
Cool.

1524
01:11:33.539 --> 01:11:34.739
Oh, that'll be good.

1525
01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:37.800
I haven't seen, I don't think I've seen any of it. series 4

1526
01:11:37.800 --> 01:11:40.020
because it's always like 3 parters or whatever.

1527
01:11:40.079 --> 01:11:43.859
And it sort of, it sort of does lean into that thing in series 4

1528
01:11:43.859 --> 01:11:47.579
that they were trying to do more sort of long form. storytelling

1529
01:11:47.579 --> 01:11:50.340
they were trying to do, but sort of contained within 2 or 3

1530
01:11:50.340 --> 01:11:50.939
parties.

1531
01:11:51.000 --> 01:11:57.840
And the, they were just, they were starting to build a world, not

1532
01:11:57.840 --> 01:12:00.539
a world, that's sort of a universe, an enterprise universe.

1533
01:12:00.600 --> 01:12:02.460
It was starting to cohere.

1534
01:12:02.520 --> 01:12:04.680
And then they pulled the plug.

1535
01:12:04.739 --> 01:12:08.100
But I mean, this was Walking Dead, wasn't it in series 4 anyway?

1536
01:12:08.159 --> 01:12:08.939
Like it was, yeah.

1537
01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:10.739
Yeah, pretty much so they had nothing to lose.

1538
01:12:10.800 --> 01:12:11.220
Yeah.

1539
01:12:11.220 --> 01:12:12.239
That's why they did.

1540
01:12:12.300 --> 01:12:14.939
We're going to do an alternative universe one, set on the defy

1541
01:12:14.939 --> 01:12:15.659
with a gone.

1542
01:12:15.720 --> 01:12:19.979
See, I just assumed that we did 2 or 3 partters for the same

1543
01:12:19.979 --> 01:12:22.079
reason that we did 6 partters in Doctor Who.

1544
01:12:22.140 --> 01:12:27.180
It's just cheaper, you know, like you're not having to, um, I'm

1545
01:12:27.180 --> 01:12:29.159
not sure because they spent a bit of money.

1546
01:12:29.220 --> 01:12:30.779
I don't know.

1547
01:12:30.840 --> 01:12:31.380
I'm not sure.

1548
01:12:31.439 --> 01:12:33.119
But it does, it does.

1549
01:12:33.180 --> 01:12:37.079
I always felt whenever I watched series 4, this feels like Bragger

1550
01:12:37.079 --> 01:12:38.340
and Berman are gone.

1551
01:12:38.460 --> 01:12:43.020
Manikoto is in and he wants to sort of bring this all together and

1552
01:12:43.020 --> 01:12:45.420
actually make something half tangible about it.

1553
01:12:45.479 --> 01:12:48.779
Not those, you know, throwaway bullshit, like a strange new

1554
01:12:48.779 --> 01:12:49.079
world.

1555
01:12:49.079 --> 01:12:50.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1556
01:12:50.939 --> 01:12:54.659
You know, and as much as you might have found it a night in Sick

1557
01:12:54.659 --> 01:12:57.659
Bay, amiable, you know, like, what the hell was that doing?

1558
01:12:57.720 --> 01:12:59.220
Like it's...

1559
01:12:59.220 --> 01:13:00.359
What is that for an hour?

1560
01:13:00.420 --> 01:13:01.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1561
01:13:01.979 --> 01:13:04.560
Well, you can do one of those.