Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, it's Christmas, and we are doing what I think is probably Star
Trek's only Christmas movie, and that is Star Trek Generation.
Why Christmas movie?
Well, there's that Christmas tree in it and all of that sort of
thing a bit later on in a bit that we will undoubtedly talk about
when we get there.
Oh, we will fucking talk about that bit.
I'm telling you.
Well, and also the fact that I thought in the future there was no
religion.
Why do we have a Christmas sequence?
Well, Christmas isn't that religious anymore.
Star Trek famously shies away from Christmas, you know.
I dont know if you notice this.
There's no Christmas specials or anything like that, is there?
That's true.
No, but I'm desperately excited because it is our 1st Star Trek
movie.
It's basically the only area of the franchise that we haven't got
our grubby little fingers on yet.
Yep.
And we've started with an absolute zinger.
So this is a pivotal moment though, isn't it?
This is the transition from television to movies for the next
generation, and the impossible has happened.
A 2nd Star Trek crew has gone on voyages all around the galaxy and
have proven to be even more popular than the original series, I
would say, you know.
And at this point, Post Series 7 of Next Generation and before
this is the zenith, I would say, of popularity in Star Trek.
So this movie had a lot riding on its shoulders.
Can this crew successfully make this leap from television to
movies?
What do you think the answer is?
Yeah, not really.
What do you think the problem is?
I think the problem is that we just have the same creatives doing
this and we're starting to shoot at just weeks after finishing all
good things.
And so it's not.
On the same set?
Yeah, it's not sufficiently different.
And it is just a little bit too much like a big episode.
And it's not just the production that makes it that way, but just
the way that it's written and the way that it's shot.
I just think it's not as interesting as it should have been for
the 1st movie.
What was um, what was your birth episode of TOS?
was Turn about Intruder, wasn't it?
So yeah, so I, the turnabout intruder is the only episode of TOS
that was released during my lifetime.
So I was born just before it came out.
So that was the last episode of the original series.
Yeah.
And then you skipped to the emotion picture.
And I'm telling you now, there's a fair chasm between the two.
But you go from all good things to generations.
And I'll tell you what, it's only a tiny little leap from one to
the other.
Yeah.
And so the motion picture is about a thing.
It's about the crew coming back together, being brought back
together to confront something that was sort of ripped off an
original Star Trek episode.
But, but it's an event.
It's a huge event and the crew coming together is interesting.
We get to see where they've been and we get to see them meet one
another again and board the Enterprise.
We get to be excited about Star Trek in this new medium for the
1st time.
This one is to be introduced to that sexy new enterprise in a
prolonged sequence that takes 15.5 minutes. very prolonged.
But here it's just the following week, you know, we did all good
things and now it's, you know, Stardate 48, something or other and
you know, it's business as usual, I think.
I think the only massive difference is the budget.
That's it.
I think in some places you can see that and in upper places, not
so much.
And I think the problem is, is because we are on the stand, it
says.
I think if you think of this movie, As a TV movie that's bridging
the gap between because this is where they destroy those sets and
that enterprise goes down and then we do get what I consider to be
a movie in inverted commas in 1st contact with the new enterprise
and it feels incredibly cinematic and epic and all the things this
probably should have been.
If you sort of think of this as a bridge between the two.
But that really wasn't what this was supposed to be.
No.
And it is the problem, which is going to be increasingly a problem
with the franchise going forward, is that we just have the same
creatives doing everything from now on.
And that will sort of peter out in series 4 of enterprise.
And, you know, like I think they try and get new people in to do
nemesis, but by then it's too late and we've all stopped caring, I
think.
Well, this is written by Ronald D. Moore of TNG and DS9 and
Brandon Braga of TNG Voyager and Enterprise.
So in terms of like 90s TV.
This is, you know, this is your pedigree, isn't it?
These are the ones.
These are big creatives.
Yeah.
And it's directed by David Carson, who impressed with yesterday's
Enterprise.
Our 1st episode is incredibly well directed.
Yeah, for a television episode.
And when we talked about how well lit that was.
Yes, yeah, yeah.
We'll come back to that in this movie, all right?
Yeah, I think we mentioned it at the time, actually, that he goes
on to do generations and that he uses some of the tricks he's
learned about lighting these sets in generations and clearly he's
allowed to do that.
I mean, if you were just, you know, Rick Colby, who was coming in
to do an episode for a month, he wasn't going to be allowed to
change the way the standing sets were lit.
His creative freedom as a director required him to still adhere to
the house style.
And because we had a sort of parallel universe thing or an
alternate timeline thing in yesterday's enterprise, that gave
Carson the chance to do something a little bit more interesting.
And here he's allowed to do something more interesting, but it is
still the same sets that we're used to seeing.
So distracting.
We'll talk about that because I'm so used to seeing the sort of
beige bland overhead lighting on all these sets.
There's something to see them that shot in interesting ways with
interesting lighting. really, really weird.
But also, as well, Carson impressed with emissary.
He directed emissary for DS9.
And that actually, and think about this, that had a 3rd of the
budget of this movie that had nearly 20000000 thrown at it.
And I think visually, emissary is actually a lot more interesting
than generations.
But like Carson had basically said, Stall, and they knew he was
you know, a good pair of hands, and if you throw a bit of money at
him, can deliver the goods.
So they think they've got, you know, their best writers.
They think they've got one of their best directors.
They throw £60000000 at this movie.
Let's see what you can do.
Yeah.
Yeah, let's see.
Well, I have to say, I have been I've watched this nearly 3 times
now this week.
Thank you for yourself.
I know.
Thank you, thank you.
Well, I wanted to listen to the commentaries.
I wanted to watch it and then I listened to the commentary with
Moore and Braga, then I wanted to listen to the commentary with
David Carson just to see everybody's different opinions.
Obviously, I watched it the 1st time myself and thought it was
fucking dreary.
The 2nd time I watched it, it's more at Braga and there, it's way
after this was like they've left the franchise.
So they can be honest, then they basically spent 2 hours going
well, what went wrong, Ron?
What went wrong, Brannan, you know?
But they're doing a lot of interesting things to say.
And I will drop a lot of the trivia that they talk about.
And Carson talks with Manny Koto, who went on to show run
Enterprise season four.
And that's a massive love in because Carson's obviously
justifiably proud of what he did here.
And Manicoto is a huge Star Trek fan.
So, but the tone of the 2 commentaries.
It's so different.
It is worth listening to it.
It does mean you have to experience the film a couple of times
though, unfortunately.
As a result.
Look, I mean, I don't think it's a good film and I think it makes
a lot of mistakes, but I would be lying if I said that I hated it
or that I didn't have some kind of sentimental attachment to it.
And the one saving grace of watching it this time was getting to
spend time with the next generation crew, who I acknowledge are
not necessarily the best Star Trek crew overassembled, but they
were my 1st Star Trek crew and I kind of love them.
And I know, you know, they, we're going to see them next year in
Star Trek, Picard, and all of that sort of thing, like I'm excited
to see them in this.
And, yeah, like they're not always as good as they could be, but
they're still fun to be had just hanging out with them, I think.
I mean, I do hope that next year in series 3 and Star Trek, Picard
that is their last outing.
I mean, they do have one foot in the grave now this bunch.
Well, I mean, they're older, but that's all right, and I think
they look pretty good.
I tell you what, I think Michael Dawn's looking pretty fine in the
Klingon makeup with the white beard.
He's looking pretty great.
You're going to say, XC.
You know, like watching Picard recently and then going back and
watching this movie where they're sort of a lot younger and
vibrant and up for the movie and things like that, you know.
Yeah.
It is nice.
But I think, and we'll get there.
I do think when the next gen crew hits this movie. that
unfortunately, that is where it takes a dramatic downturning
quality.
I would pick its dramatic downturn in quality a bit later than
that, but I do think that they make mistakes. by any chance?
Yeah, yeah, that's just dismal.
That's so boring. thinking.
Well, look, should we start this thing?
Yeah, I think we should.
I'll um...
We've got too long hours to get through.
As ever, I will say, the pain is somewhat numbed by the fact that
you are holding my hand doing this with me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, and the listeners are suffering everyone with us.
So there's that too.
Oh, that always has an extra layer of enjoyment.
All right. count us in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
Here we go.
Okay.
Paramount logo.
Yeah, just in case we ever forget where this came from.
Yes.
Not Paramount anymore, is it?
Is it?
Well, it's CBS, but it's Paramount.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's screens on CBS.
It's Paramount because it's on Paramount Park.
Oh, this is on Param Plus.
Yeah, okay.
Okay.
So I have to say that I did say this off my, but I'm going to say
it again on my, because it's a point worth making, that most Star
Trek movies do start with a fantastic, you know, creative hook
like the probe coming in at the beginning of Star Trek Voyager
something like that.
This could be a probe.
We don't know that yet.
It's a fucking bottle of champagne.
And it flies through space for what feels like 10 minutes.
Yeah.
I think it's a kind of gag though, isn't it?
I mean, it sort of works as a visual gag.
Normally, your expectation is that, I mean, like in a Star Wars
film, it always starts with a Starfield and a spaceship coming
in.
Um, and here, I think we expect a probe or something like that.
And so it is a gag.
I mean, at this point, I'm just seeing Gates as credit in opening
things and you can just see the, um, you can just see that it's a
bottle, I think, probably if you already know that at this point.
Malcolm McDowell.
I would like to say that the music in this movie, the theme I
thought was particularly good, but I thought the music was really
strong throughout, and they've used one of the TV musicians, I
think.
So it's Dennis McCarthy is doing the music.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
He did a lot of TV trek in the 90s.
Well, he also wrote the Deep Space 9 theme, which he basically
just shamelessly reuses as the theme for this.
So this introductory music is very kind of nondescript.
But when he comes in for the big theme, it's just the deep.
Space 9 theme, essentially.
And I feel a bit sad that he didn't use the opportunity to do the
original theme that he did for Star Trek, the next generation.
Do you remember?
Do you remember that?
Oh, God, we were going to use that on this podcast.
Yeah, yeah.
When I edited the 1st few episodes to see whether it would work.
No, don't...
Let's be honest.
We both fell in love with that dreadful music.
Yeah, yeah.
But partly because it was super terrible.
Thank goodness, we fell in love with the piece of music that was
created for us because I would hate for that to be...
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, that's really terrific, but goodness me, the Dennis McCarthy
theme is really quite terrible.
Did you notice that that champagne dates from just before the
Enterprise's 1st, you know, the 1st five-year mission?
It's 2265.
And so, yeah.
Star Trek has sped about a 100 years after it's broadcast.
And so that's why that...
It's finally smashed into the hull of that ship.
Yes.
Oh, so that's a glacial beginning, I'm afraid, right?
So we have a lot of people here and a lot of people who are sort
of very familiar.
And this is our 1st sort of view of journalists and Kurtzman Trek
continues to have journalists and we've seen them in sort of
various contexts, but that's actually quite a new thing here.
Yeah, I can only think of Jake. in DS 9.
I mean, like, generally, so I can think of.
Yeah, but remember there's the Federation News Network and stuff
showing the Attack on Mars in that short Treks episode that we did
for instance.
Ah, yeah.
And in the 1st episode of Picard as well.
You know, he's interviewed by a journalist and stuff.
So we do still have journalism in the future.
But there are some very familiar faces here because Tim Russ is up
the back somewhere.
We've got some lines later on.
Jerry turns up in a couple of episodes, you know, before he was on
Voyager.
I think they're just like using him.
Yeah, well he's very good.
He's in Starship Mine, where he's the kind of chief villain, I
think.
He really great.
And he's just the chief Klingon villain in DS9's innovasive
procedures and he's brilliant Klingon.
So, um, Jeanette Goldstein, who played, um, John Connor's kind of
foster mother in Terminator 2 and who played Vazquez in Aliens, uh
who sort of is a redhead.
She is at one of the stations and she gets a few lines as well.
Well, that's a bit of a, given a pedigree.
That's a bit of a waste, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, it's around about the time that she's appearing in
lots of films, in lots of sort of genre films and stuff.
I mean, the shocking thing is her last name's Goldstein and she's
playing the kind of aggressively Latina Vazquez in aliens, which
is pretty great.
One thing that Moore says during the commentary is that what
annoyed him about TNG on the television was that they just never
were allowed enough extras.
Whenever there was a meeting about cutting money, they would
always cut extras and they would always want it to be like
thriving the Enterprise 10 forward or the planets that they go
to.
And what you end up with is about 5 people in the corner and say
you know.
Whereas throughout this movie, there's just lots of people in
every scene, in this scene in particular.
Yeah, well, remember that we noticed that in yesterday's
enterprise, that in yesterday's enterprise, the ship is very, very
full of people.
And I guess they're not doing any other sets and they're saving up
money and stuff in order to do it.
Tim Ross in the background of that shot.
I like how both Harriman and Kirk kind of fondle the captain's
chair one after the other before he goes to Singapore.
Oh, we've been in the presence of the great William Shatner this
long, and we haven't mentioned him yet.
Well, he's only doing a couple of lines.
He's actually pretty great, I think, in this part of the film.
And he's very shatnery.
He's very much more like Shatner than he is like Kirk, and I guess
he's turned into a bit of a blowhard, you know, like he has in
real life at this point.
I love the fact that he's constantly having to restrain himself
because he's so used to calling the shots and he's being
respectful of the new captain at the Enterprise.
And even when the shit hits the fan, he's still like keeping
himself under, and the 2nd he goes, look, I could do with some
help here.
He's out of that chair and doing his thing, you know?
I really like this Excelsior class design.
It looks really hefty.
I'm like, see, but if I say, I don't really notice the different
styles of spaceship.
They just all look the same to me.
So that had been in maybe Star Trek five, I think, was the
USSXLsior that had the Transwarp engine that they, um, I can't
even remember now.
But I think it might have been Star Trek 5 and we do see it from
time to time in Next Generation.
So they're still around then.
This fella here playing the captain.
Have I seen him in other movies?
He's a very familiar face.
He is in Ferris Bueller's day off, which I have never seen.
Of course he is.
Yes, yes.
Oh, I have.
It was a lot of fun.
Yeah.
And I think he's really great.
And there is some proper comedy to be had with the Tuesday thing.
You know, like he goes, oh, you've come out of space doc without a
transporter beam.
And he says, yeah, well, it's being installed next Tuesday and
that becomes a kind of running gag in that scene, which I think is
nice.
I, so this is Demora Sulu as well, we see at the helm, right?
And in Star Trek beyond, remember in Star Trek beyond the Yorktown
is being threatened, you know, and so, um, Sulu's husband is on
the Yorktown with their baby daughter.
And so I just thought, is that her name?
They don't give her name, but I'm just assuming that they've got a
baby daughter because it's Demorris Sulu.
I know, because I figured the inference here was that Sulu was
straight and had a wife and they'd had a child.
I think, I think that was probably what, what, more and black it
was.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And in fact, Sully reacted reasonably badly to having John Cho.
Is it John Cho who plays solo in the films, to having that version
of Sulu be gay?
He didn't actually like that.
George Decay.
Yeah.
What did I say?
Yeah, George, she just called him Sulu.
You called him Sue.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
The lines are blurring here some.
Well, in fact, Sulu ship, I think, is an Excelsior class ship in
Star Trek 6.
Don't you remember when he comes into Voyager in flashback in
series three?
Yeah.
He looks straight to the camera and goes, oh my God. doesn't he?
Great.
Can I make a direct comparison between this movie and the Doctor
Who television movie that was filmed out in Vancouver?
Ah yeah, yeah, okay.
I think it is a problem in the Doc 2 TV movie that instead of just
giving the new Dr. Paul McGann. his own movie that they chose to
do a transitionary movie between Sylvester McCoy and Paul McGann.
I think it is a problem in generations that they chose to do a
transitionary movie between the original series and the next
generation.
And I think that they probably would have got off on a better foot
had they gone straight in for something like 1st contact and just
said, we're here.
We're the show.
We're a movie.
Yeah, we're just going to go.
Because do you know what?
This is the best part of this movie for me.
Yeah, I mean, the problem...
The original series.
Yeah, but the problem is that it's just basically the 3 people who
are willing to do it come back and you don't get Spock or Bones
who are obviously the 2 other important crew apart from Kirk.
And Spock didn't want to do it.
They toyed with the idea of getting him to direct it, didn't
they?
And he didn't want to do that.
They do.
Apparently, more Ambracco were both coming through the car park
after Nemoy had had his conversation with Rick Berman, and he
wouldn't even look him in the eye because he basically said, I do
not want a bit part in this movie, and I won't direct it if I
don't have any creative control over the movie.
I don't just want to be given a script.
Like, I think he had a firm creative hand in the ones he directed
before.
So yeah, he just washed his hands of it completely.
And so this is a kind of a bit of a sad, like, I think there's a
there's a very cute moment where um, Chekhov 1st sees Dimora and
goes, I was never that young and, and the, you know, Kirk puts his
hand on his shoulder and says, oh, you were younger.
And all of that stuff, I think, is lovely.
Like, it is lovely to see them again.
But I just think like this, this film is thematically muddy.
I don't know what it's about.
It's probably about ageing and stuff like that.
You know, Kirk's retired and he's dissatisfied and he, you know
we've got the Kirk doesn't have a family.
Which isn't it, in the movie?
Yeah. isn't it?
Sort of after TOS after the five-year mission.
He's getting older.
They kind of wanted to have a bit of a desk job at this point
don't they?
Yeah, stop, you know. marauding around the galaxy.
And they give him reading glasses, remember?
and stuff like that.
Like they tried.
I love that.
So good.
So terrific.
Well, I think the problem with the motion picture is.
I think that feels like, well, okay, you know, we're still in TOS
land and we're going off an adventure and it don't quite work
because everyone's a bit older and it's all very different.
In the 2nd movie, they're like, okay, let's play into the fact
that they are all a bit older.
And the nostalgia of going off on another great adventure and that
works a lot better.
Well, and the films are solid.
Like I'm people don't rate three.
I think 3 is okay, 2 and 4, obviously, great. where they where
they steal the ship.
Yeah.
Well, that trilogy is really, really terrifically strong and those
characters are so wonderful together.
And, you know, it's not business as usual.
I can't think of a more of an endorsement of that crew than them
all coming together, to defy Starfleet orders, to steal the ship
to go and say Spark.
It's wonderful.
Yeah.
We're about to have the tie here between the two, which is Guynan
who's in both the original series scenes and Malcolm McDonald.
The nation rich ones.
Yeah.
Yeah, Malcolm McDowell, which I think is a solid choice.
Because he's a good actor and also uncle to city girl for deal.
Yeah, I must say. strange.
Apparently they have Christmas together.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But something goes, we'll talk a bit more about sorry later on, I'm
sure, because there isn't a lot of this movie.
Something don't quite...
I think they're going for a con and it ain't no con.
No.
And I think that the films tend to go for these villains, don't
they?
So Star Trek 3 has, um, Christopher Watts's face, um, you know, the
Doc Brown from...
Oh, Christopher Plummer, isn't it?
No, no, no.
Christopher Plummer is in Star Trek six.
Christopher Lloyd is in Star Trek 3.
Oh, yeah.
Do you know what?
He does everything but say, great Scott, doesn't he?
He's so good.
And, and, you know, you've got Ricardo Montalban, obviously, in
Star Trek 2.
And so you do have these big villains in the Star Trek films.
And of these films do we have, there are 3, uh, there are 3 next, 4
next generation films, 3 of which have big villains.
So you've got Or do they two?
I guess two.
Well, no, no, no, they do.
I mean, you get the ball queen in 1st contact, you get the fellow
with the stretchy face.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Abraham, I mean, all.
He's a great actor.
Yeah, yeah, yeah I know, but the character is so forgettable.
Yeah.
And then you get Australia's Eric Banner in Nemesis.
Who's that?
He's Nero, the Romulan guy with the big shit.
No, I'm thinking of the guy who plays the young Picard.
You know, the really famous actor.
Oh, yeah, no, maybe that's the next film.
Maybe that's not nemesis.
Oh, it's pretty Tom Hardy, my celebrity boyfriend.
Oh, beautiful.
Yeah.
Well, he's too skinny in that film.
But you know what?
Bulks up later.
None of them are as memorable, though.
I don't think. something just doesn't quite click.
You get old Cumberbatch, don't you, in the 2nd of the winter
movies?
Yeah, yeah.
Shocking.
But it's not really, I mean, it sort of works with, it works with
Montalban, and that's a shame because it's not really how Star
Trek works.
And so the films end up being like just big, dumb adventure films
and that's fun and it's fun seeing the accrue to it.
But Star Trek 4 isn't a big, dumb adventure film, Star Trek 6
isn't a big, dumb adventure film.
You know, occasionally they remember that it's supposed to be a
Mount Star Trek.
But you know what?
I think half the problem as well with this being a next generation
movie is, you go back and watch TOS and it's often poorly staged.
There is a lot of action in TOS.
But they don't hold back from, you know, fight sequences and
things like, remember, the doomsday machine.
It was just full of, you know, shuttles being eaten and things
like this.
Next generation, it was attempting to be a bit more cerebral and
talking. wasn't it, you know, character drama and things like
that.
So suddenly they've got this massive stage that they can do on
this big budget.
They don't feel very next gen.
No, no.
And I think the thing with NextGen too is that NextGen was a
successful TV series in its own lifetime, whereas the original
series becomes successful in syndication, which is why it only
lasts for 3 years.
Um, And, you know, we're just used to a certain level of kind of
boredom watching.
It just seems kind of, it does seem weird to have so much action
and it's kind of nice.
Although I've got to say, you know, in in the 2nd off of this
movie, which does attempt to get a little bit more thoughtful and
symbolic and characterful and henceforth is extremely boring.
The bit that I absolutely love is when the enterprise crashes
which is the most un TNG like sequence I can think of, but it's
absolutely incredible.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's it is funny, isn't it?
It is, I think this film really, really suffers from not allowing
the show to have a rest and then come back.
And, you know, I think you said to me before, or I must have read
on memory alpha, that, that, um, more and Braga actually think
that all good things went better. say that.
They said that, yeah.
But they said, why didn't we make that as the movie?
That's more sophisticated storytelling than we do here.
Like, well, I think the reason is that it's such fun, wank.
You know, like what is a normal person going to even make of that
when they go to see it?
It's about the next generation.
August Things is about the next generation.
It's a celebration of the next generation.
I know, it needs to be the final episode of Star Trek, the Next
Generation.
They do need to do something different.
They need to go off because this is the 1st film in a series in a
way.
And I think there is a problem with, so we've killed Kirk, by the
way.
Well, so this would have been an incredibly unsatisfying depth
because we didn't even see it.
It was off camera and it's just their reactions to it.
I think it is a better day.
Somehow.
Well, I was about to say, somehow, the death that we actually see
later in the movie is even worse.
Whereas, I mean, this one kind of works, doesn't it?
Because they're doing it to save people and Captain Kirk, who is
feeling unhappy about not being a captain anymore, gets to be a
captain for one last heroic time.
All right.
So here we are on the Enterprise. 78 years later.
Now, I always feel like they just wanted a jolly on a ship for 5
days.
I was, oh, less than amount on a boat, you know, we'll film
something.
Well, I think that this is a very clear statement that this isn't
a TV show now because we could never, ever have afforded to do
this in a 1000000 years on the sort of budget that Star Trek, the
Next Generation, had.
So they're very, very definitely showing us these characters for
the 1st time in an environment that they could never, ever have
afforded to realise.
And it's impressive.
I think the scene is shocking.
Like, Jesus is horrible.
But like, like, okay, fine. if that's your statement.
We want to show something visually that we can never do on our
original budget, but then find a creative reason to do it.
No, that's right.
But instead they're just hazing wharf.
And this thing, this sort of bullshit thing with Riker reading out
this proclamation.
And it's the usual Star Trek thing of, you know, you are the
finest crew that it's ever been my honour to serve with and all of
that sort of bullshit.
And it's so crap and it's so kind of...
Oh my god, get that, get the plank out, computer, remove the
plank.
It's like you always said, every time TNG tries to be funny or 90s
track tries to be funny.
It's fairly agonising.
And may I say they make that leap over to the movies with
spectacular success.
Right.
These starters you mean to go on, everything that thinks it's
going to be funny in this movie is instead going to be butt
clenchingly embarrassing.
Do you know what I think is the only funny moment in all of these
TNG movies is the bit where they left.
No.
It's the bit where they left the camera, Marina, in 1st contact.
She had a few gins and they said, oh, quick, she's pissed.
Keep filming her.
She's so funny.
It's just her absolutely rat-assed.
And she's hitting.
She's hitting Riker.
Oh, it's brilliant.
But any other comedy, especially in this movie, especially
anything featuring data.
Oh, yeah, it was pretty agonising.
Although there are 2 bits that Data does that I secretly really
like, even though I don't think either the writing or Brent's
performance are very good.
Are we supposed to be just enjoying the fact that they're having a
bit of fun here?
Is that the idea of this?
Yeah, yeah, but they're having fun in the world's most miserable
and kind of, well, I don't know, just such a, I don't know.
Why can't they have fun in a farm?
I'm about to contradict myself because I think Anson Tilly runs at
the party.
When Gates McFadden's pushed in sort of water.
Lick on earth face. hilarious.
It's pretty great.
She deserves it anyway.
Fuck off.
She's laughing when Worf gets.
Why is it not funny?
It's funny when Wolf gets knocked pushed off the thing, but not
funny when Gates gets pushed off the thing.
I think.
Why couldn't a wharf have just gone, computer, delete the boat?
Then they would all be in the water.
They'd all fall in the water.
That would have been great.
I think I think that it's retract the plank, not remove the
plank.
Can that ease him trying to breathe some life into that deadline?
you know, by camping it up slightly, which I think is sort of, you
know, I do find it baffling though, because you know what?
You and me have done a couple of comedies written by Ronald D
Moore, and he can be very funny.
He can rotate fun.
He wrote the house of pork, looking football market in all the
wrong places, in the cards.
He's a funny writer.
Yeah, I think there's just the whole next gen thing here making it
not funny.
I mean, you can clearly... clearly see that that was not Gates
McFadden for you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marina, when she looks, when she looks at data, they're all
looking at data, but the look on Marina's face is pretty great.
I'll give her that That was not funny.
By all accounts, those weren't actors on the boat.
That was the crew of the ship.
Oh wow.
Okay.
Starstream for the day.
That's pretty awesome.
Just save a bit of money.
They didn't want to take any extras.
I mean, it all looks...
I mean it does all look very impressive.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But what is it?
What is it about?
And so there's this too.
Like, that speech here about, because, what, it's comparing the
Enterprise Our Enterprise to this ship.
And he's just finished saying how wonderful it would be to not be
contactable.
You know, you can't be reached when you're on this ship and then
he gets this message.
And I think this message, again, is a terrible mistake.
And I don't know why they...
I'm getting the message about his family.
Oh, it's awful.
No, I'm telling you what, they do it because they need a reason
when he goes in the nexus to want something so he'll stay there.
Yeah.
But it just feels so manipulative.
Yeah.
And I think I think he's terrible in it.
Like, I think that Stuart's performance is...
Yeah, do you know what?
That Patrick Stewart, and they actually say in the commentary, I
can't believe he cried in this thing, like, we never wrote for him
to be crying in this scene.
Why did he go this far?
Yeah.
I think he's like, well, I'm in a movie now. you know, I got to
show some serious emotion.
I like I like Deanna's reaction here too.
Marina's reaction because and we don't need to be told why she
notices something.
You know, that's just a little reminder and it is her successfully
using her empathic abilities instead of just saying, I'm sorry
Captain, I'm afraid I can't, you know, read them at this distance
or whatever, they seem to be being deceptive or they seem to be
being very angry or something, you know, like she's actually
properly detecting something.
She plays it well, but the fact that he's there staring off camera
looking like he's about to fall to pieces.
I mean, I think anyone could pick up on the fact that he's just
but I think she notices it from a distance in a way that I think
kind of just reinforces that she can do that.
And I did quite like that because it's so rarely acknowledged in
the show properly.
We're about to head on to, uh, the end of going for a 2nd now.
And I've got to say, I do think it was a massive mistake for them
to just keep using the standing sets at Paramount.
It really was.
I really think they should have, they should have started this
movie with a brand new like a cinematic enterprise with, you know
cinema style lighting.
This, they've made a few adjustments to this.
But they light it in such a strange way.
Yeah, if you're trying to recapture that feeling of the series and
bridge the gap, then lighting it in this very kind of moody way.
Well, it doesn't feel anything like the next generation.
Well, and also the trouble is that it's not a very good set and
from where, like when you look at it from above, whenever they do
a high shot on the bridge, you can see all of the space that's
purely there to wheel the cameras around.
And so here he's put some additional consoles and things in there
and there's more extras and stuff.
I mean, I think, look, the problem is, that's how the TV series
should always have been there.
It should always work like that.
Yeah.
Yeah, but it didn't.
So it feels jarring, you know?
And especially like the lighting in the 10 forward sequences, which
I think is really good.
It just doesn't feel like 10 forwards to me because it never
looked like that.
No, but it's the same kind of lighting that you still get on
discovery where you actually get sort of sunlight streaming in
through the windows and stuff. lighting coming in through the
window.
It's gorgeous.
Yeah.
See, it doesn't matter here on this ship because we've never been
here before.
They can like how they like it.
And it's just the same old set that they've been using for 7 years
as well.
You know, they just move a few flats around and stuff and it's
just the same as everything else.
It's just a bit of a minute where they have a phase of fire
because, you know, they do that thing where they duck beyond a
console, someone's shoes.
They don't be on a console.
And I thought, they're even doing the action fucking sequences
like the TV show.
Yeah, no, that's a little bit later, isn't it?
When they come to rescue, you, when they come to rescue Geordian
Data.
I think they just come across dead bodies here.
But, you know, that big girder thing we've seen 100s of times
before, like all of these sort of bits and pieces are hugely
familiar.
And so even though they do have a big budget, they're, I've just
done.
I just did 1st aid, just to interrupt myself.
I did a 1st aid course, just a week ago, and it just worried me
that that guy was pinned down and that they just picked the thing
up off him.
That is the one doing. you should never do.
That's right.
Don't do that, kids at home.
I mean, I guess you've got a doctor there, so maybe it's okay.
And may I say, she gets so, so little to do in this episode.
Thank goodness she's around, just milling about of a tricorder in
this thing.
There's a few of these enterprise crew, you know, that don't get
any screen time at all.
No.
And that's the other thing too.
Why this show even more than original Trek is a bad fit for movies
because you've got this giant cast and ordinarily you would just
feature one or 2 of them or, you know, you'd have a Geordie
centric episode or a wharf centric episode or whatever.
You're not used to me before.
You're not ever gonna get that again, are you?
No.
That's right.
And they kind of settle on, obviously, Picard, because it's
Patrick Stewart, and they settle on giving him a big role and
data.
Yeah, that's that's the 2 biggies in the movies.
And everyone else is called sort of peripheral.
Weirdly enough, is everybody else that gets all the best scenes.
So this, so we're picking up on something that was originally in
Brothers, wasn't it?
And then that became a thing in dissent.
So I think all the emotion.
Yeah, so I think we watched them retrieve the emotion chip from
law, didn't we, in dissent?
And so this is a different emotion chip.
This is a movie design emotion ship.
Um, and I think...
Oh, they so enamoured with data, though, that, like, because when
we watched descent, we kind of acknowledged that that didn't work
and spinal performance didn't work when he was there.
I'm like, stop it, stop it, stop it.
You know, it was all very camping over the top and a bit
ridiculous.
I'm wondering if they're just so enamoured with data and Brent
Spider.
They think and they say in the commentary, you know, you can
always rely on Spiner, whatever you give him, he's going to do
something interesting with it.
Well, I think this movie actually belies that point.
Yeah, I agree.
I think look, I mean, he's a beloved character.
He's the breakout character, isn't he?
Like he's the one that I would say, yes.
Yeah.
And he's not, I don't think he's the best performer. do you know
what I mean by any stretch?
But, you know, like he does do a lot of things and he is a super
interesting character.
But what they do here. you know why he's so likeable?
He's so likeable because he's so childlike. so innocent.
And like, you know, the humour that comes out of it is often
inadvertent and he doesn't understand things and things like
suddenly he's very knowing and sarcastic and condescending and
just all of those things that you hate in people.
And I'm like, oh, I think you would take a character.
I think he's amazing.
You take a character who is so likeable and make him so
unlikeable.
It's like the Scott Bacular effect in Star Trek Enterprise.
He's really obnoxious and that is not what we're here for.
And so it wrecks state his character.
And one of my favourite things is the way that they deal with the
emotion chip. in 1st contact where I can't even remember.
Is it when Alice Creek's coming onto him?
No, no, so data says something to Picard about how he's scared and
Picardo Riker and the response is why don't you consider
deactivating your emotion ship?
And so he just tilts his head very briefly to one side.
We hear an electronic noise.
He's turning off.
That's them acknowledging the fact that this is, in fact, doing
stupid.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And like, I think there is a way of him playing it where he
discovers emotions and stuff, but it's that big camp thing that he
does here and that he's called upon to do, which is just
obnoxious.
You know, I think that having data confront emotions in a
childlike and amazed way. incredible.
Imagine him having his 1st stiffy.
Like, that would be amazing.
You know, he doesn't know.
No, he had sex with Tashi R.
He wasn't in fact pushing ropes and that, as we know.
Oh, do you know, they say this is 10 forwards about how many, this
is how many extras they would have liked.
Yeah.
So this is actually kind of cute.
And I think he overplays the I hate this thing.
But what's funny... is I'm just dreadful.
But what I think is cute is when he just turns to her and in his
normal voice says, you know, yes, another one please.
Like, he actually dials it down.
And I think that's really funny.
He overplays it in a way that's obnoxious.
But you know what as well?
They still need him to deliver the exposition in this movie
right?
So there are sequences where he's being sarcastic and stupid and
silly and playing with tricorders.
And then he just suddenly turns into normal data.
All of a sudden.
And even that's even more weird.
You know, it's like he's got split personality syndrome.
Yeah, no, no, no.
It doesn't work at all.
But I do like the way he says please there in his normal data
voice.
You know, he does want another one because he wants to experience
something terrible.
So this is, this scene is actually not as oddly lit as I thought
but the yellow lighting that is coming in, and particularly in the
the, inter, you know, the, the conversation between numb Soren and
Picard.
See, everything's very yellow.
And Soren's...
Do you remember where the light came from in the series?
It was all from the tables. wasn't it?
They were all white and it was always lit from below.
Oh no, but there's heaps of key lighting.
Part of the problem with Star Trek, the next generation, is
there's such strong key lighting that everything looks really flat
and there's very rarely the shadows in the shot that you're
getting here.
And so I think this looks better.
Yeah, oh, this looks a million.
This is lit brilliantly.
It just doesn't feel like the next generation.
Yeah, but like, you know, the...
Do you see what I'm saying about, sort of the confused nature of
this film, though.
Like, it's confusing in that even down to the uniforms.
Some people are wearing next generation uniforms.
Some people are wearing deep space 9 uniforms.
Well, and they swap.
I mean, like eventually we get a scene with both Picard and Data
in the Deep Space 9 uniforms as well.
And is this way?
It's a movie that can't quite let go of original series and yet
wants to focus on the next generation.
It's serious that wants to do a transition between the old sets
and the new, and it's just, it's just weird.
It's a weird amalgam of, and I just feel like having a more solid
mission statement of, let's just do a movie.
Yeah, which is what they do the 2nd time and it works very well.
And that manages to be an action movie and also to be about Star
Trek too.
So I think that's pretty good and manages to have like a genuine
threat.
It manages to have impressive action set pieces, a decent villain
you know, and actually some pretty good humour.
I remember when Robert Picardo turns up.
That's quite a funny scene.
Stealing Beverly's only scene.
Whoopi was a given in this movie, though, wasn't she?
given that she was the one sort of big movie star that appeared in
the next generation?
She's not credited.
So she isn't credited in this movie at all, not in the opening or
the closing credits.
And I gather that they had a choice between her in series 7 or in
this movie.
So she doesn't appear in series 7 at all.
I think her last episode might be suspicions, I want to say.
It is suspicions.
Yeah, where she goes to advise Dr. Bev on a murder mystery.
Yeah, just a shockingly bad episode.
Yeah.
And so this is her back.
Yeah, look, you've got Riker in at the F9 uniform here, a wolf in
the next generation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, now, now I think we're going to have Geordie is in, um, yeah
and there's data.
Look, data's in a deep, so...
I'm so pleased that Geordie is unamused by data.
It's sort of larking about, you know.
He is basically the audience identification figure in this scene.
So it's the shitty joke that he's finally got, the but the Ferengi
and the gorilla suit has to go joke.
Is that actually in encounter at Farm Point?
I don't remember.
I can tell you this now.
If there was a joke in a counterpart, it was going to be fairly
agonising.
Well, we would only have heard that as the punchline, I think, and
that's what he says.
And this is the 7 year later payoff.
Yeah.
Well, we don't find out what the joke is.
We only hear the punchline and he's he's really unpleasant to
watch.
Why is he overplaying every line so much?
Well, I think it's in the theatre right now, and he's trying to
get to the back of the audience, you know?
But don't you think the script wants him to do that?
Like the script wants him to overplay it?
Just the kind of love.
I will say in, um, in Birmingham Braggart's defence, they were
told they had to put in a big data subplot.
That wasn't what they were originally going to do.
In fact, a lot of what they originally were going to do is nothing
like how this, because a lot, they basically said, here's a list
of things we needed in this movie.
We want you to pass the battle on between dirt and dirt.
We need a big subplot for data.
We need emotional moments for Patrick Stewart.
So like, oh, well, you best have just told us what we got to write
then, haven't you?
I actually think this thing here too, when he says Open Sesame.
I mean, if he didn't laugh at his sort of crappy joke and then mug
at the camera about it, that that would actually be kind of
funny.
Like, you would expect him to be clever and playful because he's a
smart man, and now he has a sense of humour, you would expect him
to be good at it.
But because he's being written by, you know, Brandon Praga, the
lines aren't funny and nothing that goes on is funny and his
laughter. just seems embarrassing, I think.
Like, giving him the emotionship as well.
Again, it feels like a bit of a perverse reimagining of the next
generation, doesn't it?
It doesn't feel quite right.
Yeah, yeah, it's a strange thing to do in the 1st outing because
you're going to have him behaving differently from how he's ever
behaved before.
I actually like Mr. Tricorder secretly.
Because he turns to Mr. Tricorder and then just talks to him in
his normal data voice and then both of them turn to camera like Mr
Tricorder and he both turn to camera at the same time and then he
ruins it by mugging it.
But I do think it's actually sort of slightly.
I think, Mr. Tricorder, might get more screen time than Dr. Bev
you know, in this movie.
That's a tricor, am I?
There was one scene where I thought days with the emotions did
work and that's the scene in Stellar cartography, which is played
seriously.
It's not all done for laughs.
And I think he's seen about being properly afraid.
It's a scene about the car, too.
Because you have Picard, who is doing precisely what data is not
able to do yet, which is to continue his work despite having
suffered a devastating loss.
And, you know, Picard's state of mind is much worse than data. has
been a, you need a prick and has been embarrassed and has let
Geordie get captured.
Did you notice that?
He was literally girding to the camera.
Oh, it's dreadful.
Like, I don't even know, like his mouth is so big.
It's like bigger than kind of a normal human would be able to
achieve.
It's sort of, it's just unpleasant to watch.
You know what, though?
when he's playing the role like this.
It does actually make me realise the skill that he's put into
those 7 years of the next generation of making data so damn
light.
Because it could have been like this.
Yeah.
Do you know what's really funny?
Remembering, do you remember in all good things when we go back to
season one and Brent recaptures his season one performance, which
is quite different from very childlike.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it comes series 70 years, just an exposition machine, isn't
he?
An occasional surreal episode about dreams and bad dreams.
Yes.
So here's Picard looking at his fucking space photo album where
instead of having white borders, all of the photographs have these
absurd holographic borders.
You've been spoiled by all those holograms in the air in Kursman
Trek, you know.
There is still a pace for the old-fashioned photo album.
But it's not old-fashioned. holographic borders on all of the
photos.
It's like, why is it a space photo album?
It's so bullshit So the people that have died.
Is it the family that we meet in family?
And that's the other thing about it.
I love that episode.
I love those characters.
What the hell?
Yeah, why do they do that?
It's awful.
It's just awful.
And they liked the kid.
So the kid who plays...
Oh, he comes back in rascals, doesn't he?
Comes back in rascals to play a young Jean-Luc Picardo does a
pretty good job.
I really quite like it.
He's my number one dad. so funny.
That's it is actually properly funny.
That's, and, you know, like, Riker looks hugely embarrassed and
the whole thing is actually really great.
Picard's hugging him isn't he?
That's really great.
So this is sort of watching that instead, honestly.
That's right.
And again, it's the thing where it's like, well, now we don't have
to turn the fucking lights on.
But at least here the light is coming from somewhere, you know, and
there's shadows.
Like if we were in his quarters in an episode, there would be no
shadows anywhere. would be just dark.
He's crying his eyes out, eh?
Yeah.
They did say as well, um, I think it's, I can't remember if it's
more or bragger, but they say the reason why the tears don't
work.
Like, we've got this new movie with this, with this crew that we
love and he should be as heroic as possible and getting out
there.
They said we've got him in a dark room in tears because it's not a
great it's a confusing mission statement, you know?
Yeah, that's right.
And like you know, like in a normal situation, he would take a
week off.
And I quite like, actually, there's that moment where Riker kind
of objects to being given this thing, you know, like, why am I
doing this?
And he just tells him to get it done and storms off into his ready
room, which I thought was actually pretty good.
Um, But yeah, I just hate this subplot.
And like, I don't know what it's in aid of.
Like he's suddenly realised that he isn't going to have children
and stuff and neither is Kirk.
Neither of them are going to have children.
And so when their jobs end, they no longer serve a purpose.
And the only thing that they do is make a difference.
And that's how he persuades Kirk to come back, isn't it?
You know, like you, retirement isn't you.
You need to be out there doing something and making a difference
which is what we saw in the very 1st scene on the Enterprise B. But
as well, do you know?
We haven't seen a bit of action since the beginning of the movie.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, and I'm not, you know, and I'm not saying I need action
all the time, but I'm watching a fucking movie.
And I'm basically watching an episode of Star Trek, the Next
Generation, that's particularly well lit right now.
Yeah, I think that's a huge problem, isn't it?
We haven't had anything.
We had.
Yeah, we haven't had anything.
This is the most dramatic thing that's happened.
Um, yeah.
Like, I think...
And it does feel like 2 fingers up at the TV series as well. just
to arbitrarily kill off important characters.
And Moore says that they wanted like a hook for this movie.
Like, you know, like they wanted it to have a big event in it and
what they actually landed on was the death of Kirk.
Like this would be the movie that is the death of Kirk.
Well, news flash.
This is the 1st Next Generation movie.
You know, like?
It's not a bad thing.
And also, fuck that, you know, like, I don't know that I want to
go to a movie to see my, like, if I want to go to a movie to see
my childhood heroes die, I'll watch the sequel, the sequel trilogy
of Star Wars, you know, where each film kills off yet.
Excuse me, I ain't seen the last one yet.
It's really bad.
And and that's kind of miserable.
That's kind of miserable. where they bring back Emperor Palpatine
in the school of text at the beginning and it doesn't actually
happen as a dramatic reveal.
Robot carry because of course she died between films.
Oh, do you know what?
I'm going completely off piece here, but there is one bit where I
think this set actually does work in this movie and that is when
they crashed up on the planet and he looks out the window and sees
the sky up from the skylight.
Yeah.
That's great.
That is pretty good.
Well that is the only bit.
I also think the thing.
They're all sitting down.
Yeah, he's got a chair now.
Again, it's sticking 2 fingers up on the next generation.
He always stood up for that. for 7 years and now he's got to see
me.
Here's your reward for coming into the movies.
You've got to see.
Well done.
Yeah.
So here we go, here we go.
Here's some action.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, the thing's going to explode. his Lurser and Bator, like for
some reason.
Actually, because they're great.
They are great.
But you know what?
Did you ever read the story of when they were showing off to
Robert O'Reilly, who plays Gowron?
They were going, we're in the next generation movie, like, and
he's like, you know what that means, don't you?
If you're in the movies, you're going to be killed off.
Well, they hadn't got the script at this point.
And then they've got the script and they were like, oh, fuck.
Because they do, do they do a series one, DS9 episode?
They do, yeah.
Before this, I think it was before this, yeah.
Well, of course it was.
They're killed in this.
Yeah, they killed in this.
And I won't lie.
The bit where they do that very 60s dramatic zoom on their faces
as they die was absolutely hilarious.
Well, I love their kind of when they're looking through Geordie's
visor at Beverly and they're pulling faces and going. looks
absolutely stunning in that scene.
She does.
And they're pulling...
She's never looked more beautiful.
Were they pulling hilarious faces saying how revolting Earth women
look, which is really funny.
You said this was a Christmas movie.
That's the most pantomime moment in the whole movie.
Yeah, yeah.
But, you know, that's an amazing...
We cut back to them about 5 times.
Yeah, we get it.
You think she's ugly.
We get it.
So this is the 1st wow.
Wow, that looks pretty good.
This is the 1st movie.
Is this the 1st time that the Enterprise is ever realised as a
computer?
They talk about this in the commentary.
Basically, it is a mixture of model work and CGI.
Yeah.
And you can't really tell the difference.
So that's quite impressive.
But there is, like, there's some pieces of stock footage, aren't
there, in this?
So the, we do see like in the middle of the film we get to see a
captain's log, which is being delivered against just one of the
most reused pieces of stock footage of the enterprise, you know, in
the show's history.
And I think when Lurser and Batour ship blows up.
It's from the previous film.
Like, well, at least it spares, I was you saying, again, well
here's that same footage from encounter a far boy.
I think for the 1st time since Encounter of Farpoint, they've shot
the Enterprise in a new way again.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you know a bit just there, where he punched.
Is it Betel or Lerser, one of them?
Yeah, yeah, I can't remember.
We punched it.
And then she goes, I hope you're initiating a mating ritual and
puts the blood on his lips.
But do you know what?
Do you know how this was originally conceived and it was written
in the script as well?
And when they wrote it, they even said to each other, they're
going to take this out, they'll never, ever.
Were they fucking?
No, they were supposed to materialise.
And it was supposed to be like this like Roman orgy going on on
the Klingon ship and everyone's a bit sexed up and they're all
eating grapes and it's all and and like both the Rick Burman took
one look at that and went, no, get rid of it.
We're not having that.
That's right.
We can save ourselves a lot.
It was supposed to be overtly sexualised because they figured they
could do that with a movie, you know?
And Berman was like, no.
This is still the next generation.
We're not having any sex.
There's no sex.
So what is it about Malcolm McDowell and sorry that doesn't really
work.
Um, I don't think his motive is well defined.
It just comes across as somebody who's a bit powerful.
Has he lost somebody?
Is he going into the nexus because he's his wife and children were
killed by the Borg.
So we know already that Gynon's people like their home planet was
assimilated by the Borg, which is why Gyner knows about them and
Picard doesn't.
And so, so it's that reason.
It's the same kind of motivation that Kurt would Smith has in the
year from hell or whatever, you know, he's, he's kind of just done
a 1000000 times more effectively.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's some, uh, very quickly, there's some fabulous uh, practical
lighting in guidance quarters. the candles.
They could have done that in the next generation.
Not sure why they didn't.
No.
Yeah, no, it's all lit like a very boring TV show, I think.
But even though, okay, so he's got a tragic backstory, and he's
going into the Nexus, because he wants to be, you know, reunited
fantasy version of his wife and children and whatever.
I mean, that comes across very strongly.
What he comes across as is a bit of a one note, panto villain.
Yeah.
And he, but there is something there, like, again, he's responding
differently to the passage of time.
Isn't he?
Because there's that scene, you know, the line that he says, they
say that time is the fire in which we all burn.
And at the end of the film, Picard recalls that line and says, no
you know, time is a reminder that we should enjoy every moment
while it lasts.
And it's super kind of, like, like, it's not very, Yeah, that's
right.
It's really ripe.
It's not very interesting.
And so thematically, this isn't really about anything very much, in
a way that's not always true of Star Trek films, but seems to be
true of the next generation films.
There's something about age and like it's called Star Trek
Generations and neither Kirk nor Picard have children and we are
concerned about generations in that sense.
It's not just called generations because it's, you know, Star Trek
the Next Generation movie.
Don't ever have that conversation, though, do they?
That's the theme of this.
Maybe they should have had that conversation in the nexus when
they meet.
Yeah, so, so, so, Kirk has that conversation with Chekov when he
meets Tamora and and Picardo has that conversation with Deanna.
Yeah, yeah.
So maybe they should have had that conversation together and
reached some kind of a conclusion that...
It's all very undercooked, like, who gives a shit?
Popping around the universe is actually more exciting than
bringing up a family.
Well, you could bring up a family on the enterprise because
there's kids on there anyway.
Yeah, yeah. for some reason.
For the last time, actually.
O'Brien and Keiko and lovely Molly.
But as well, like they're going, they are going for this sort of
grandiose villain, because they've got him in this fabulous sort
of chasm later on this bridge.
Yeah, he's got all electricity, you know, coming across him and
it's also hugely cinematic.
He's actually underplaying the role quite a lot.
Yeah.
So that's not very fun.
I mean, Monterban doesn't do that in Star Trek too, does he?
He just goes for it.
And that's fun.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's it isn't an undercooked villain, isn't it?
You just get him on to have that sort of crisp accent and, and um
I don't know.
They approached him, you know, and they didn't think they were
going to get him.
And then they told him that this was going to be the movie where
he was going to kill him and he was going to kill Kirk and he was
like, I'm there.
He goes, because I think he said, what is it?
One day, what's the quote, one day, I'll be a trivial pursuit
question where which movie and which character was the feature of
the death of Captain Kerr.
So this is stock footage, this shot of the Enterprise.. shot from
TNG.
They haven't done another one of just using that again.
Can I say as well that more in Brogra?
Oh, very honest about the deficiencies of the next generation
because I have left the franchise at this point.
They talk a bit about Roddenbury's original conception for the
show, things like that.
One of the things they talk about is that model shot of the
enterprise and they say, you know what?
It looks unwieldy.
It's top heavy with the saucer.
So from certain angles.
That's why they don't do a lot of action in the movies because in
the enterprise, because it just doesn't suit an action scene very
well.
No, but I think the new enterprise does.
Like, I think they're sovereign class when I'm looks great.
It's designed for a movie, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
But, you know, discovery, which looks weird and is very
geometrical also looks great in sort of action shots too.
Herman Zimmerman, uh, who costume designed, much...
No, he's the set designer.
Oh, is he?
Who's the costume?
costumes.
Good idea.
But basically he did all the sets for TNG.
He did all the sets for DS 9.
And um, Marina Assertis says in the insurrection commentary and
just a note that you have to go and listen to that because she's
wonderfully vague in it.
She spends the entire commentary gang.
Johnny, Johnny, what's going on here?
Johnny, why am I doing that?
She goes at one point.
Johnny, why is my name last on the credits?
Is that's why I'm in this movie so little?
Oh, that's terrible, mirroring, so expression.
I'm so sorry.
Where was I going with that?
Thank you very much.
Oh, sorry.
She says in insurrection, that Zimmerman was there from day one.
So it was only right that he took sort of the leap to the movies.
Right.
But again, he wasn't a movie designer.
But I do think there's still a cartography set, and I think it
inspires a similar set in Voyager later on.
A much cheater said in Voyager, though.
Well, of course, it's done on a TV budget.
They don't have 60000000 to play with, did they?
No, I know.
I don't like this scene at all because it is that thing that we
talked about, was it, um, Billingsley, who complained about this
where you would have this conversation, which was half about space
nonsense.
Oh, it's Tim Ross, saying half of this conversation's about space
nonsense, and then the other half is about our emotions.
And we stop the, because we can't do, we're not skilled enough to
do a scene that is just purely about characters discussing how
they're feeling, without them just, do you know what I mean?
Without them just blurting it out at each other, we have to
intersperse it with exposition and sort of special effects and
stuff to get it happening.
I think this had the potential to be good, but what we don't get
is we don't get reminded that, um, Picard is feeling worse.
Maybe it's in Picard's performance.
Maybe it's in Stuart's performance.
Picard is feeling much worse than data in this, you know.
Yeah, I do like the fact that he says to him, look, data, you just
just people do your fucking job, but and still do their jobs.
Yes, that's right. advantage all these years.
And this is what you're looking for.
It doesn't quite get to any of those moments though, does it?
Instead, it's more like, you know, Picard's going, you know, I'm
agonising over the death of my family.
And how long is it till we get to the veridian system?
that's right He does back down from just ordering him to sit down
and do his job, which I think is kind of good, but, you know, it's
all just terribly undercooked.
And this is...
Morgan Braga say that they think this is the best scene in the
movie.
Yeah, but it's the scene that they've done so many times before.
It's the trick that they perform all the time.
And it's...
The problem is that I don't give a shit about the people on
Veridian four.
You have mentioned this one source wise.
Yes, I just don't care.
We don't see them.
We don't, they're just words.
And so, and I don't think that the film properly sells the fact
that the entire crew of the enterprise is killed when the sun goes
out.
Oh, I don't think I don't think it sells that at all.
No, I don't think it does. either.
And so there's no stakes.
You're telling me that now.
It's the 1st time I've realised it.
Yeah, that's exactly it.
They're all killed when the shockwave goes through, but somehow we
never notice it or mention it.
Picard doesn't mention it.
Like he's not worried about.
He doesn't even mention what's happened to his crew when he's in
the nexus or when he's.
They kind of want to have their cake and eat it, don't they?
They want to raise the stakes.
But this is still next generation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it's like, it's like when you watch best for both whales and
it's like, you know, oh, the Borg are heading to Earth.
Well, we can care about her.
We're from Earth.
Half our characters from Earth, you know.
Where it's like, you're right.
The veridian system, well, we've never been there before.
We never go there again and we don't know anyone on that planet.
We've never seen it.
Like it's not even like it's vulcan or something we might possibly
do.
Do you remember when they say what the population of the planet
is?
They say the number.
We're supposed to be like, oh, yeah, 1000000s of people.
Yeah, they're just space people that don't exist.
Yeah, exactly. 230 million, not 320. sorry. got that wrong.
I overreacted by 900000 people.
Yeah, so we're going to...
And that is a bit of a problem, isn't it?
If the stakes are forgettable, Why do we care?
No, that's right.
And, and, you know, 2 of the original Star Trek films have, you
know, things directly, you know, like big space things coming
along to threaten Earth.
You know, like it's about Earth and and and the next Star Trek, the
Next Generation film, attack, you know, just about to say that.
It's a threat to the earth.
It's a threat to the timeline.
They may prevent 1st contact and we'll never have Star Trek.
Those are things we can get. about.
I think that there's a scene that's been deleted here and thank
God it's been deleted because when something gets said about
Geordie and Soren says, oh, his heart wasn't in it, and I think
that that has to be a reference to him like doing something like
putting a probe in his heart or doing something.
Like, I think that that's a remnant of a scene that has been
caught of him torturing him.
I did get a bit of fun from these scenes, you know, with Lers from
baseball.
It's just because the performances are really fun, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, that's from the tour are terrific.
They're great.
They basically just stop short of turning into camera raising
their eyebrows, you know, how arch they are.
But, you know, that's more fun than soaring.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so are you going to say that?
No, okay.
Oh, yeah, no.
And the whole sequence where where Geordie's walking around the
ship and we're looking for his visor and we've done that before as
well.
Let's remembering the mind's eye and my mind's eye.
Yeah, that's a good one. just get to that wonderful bit where
they're like, 0 my god, we've got the shield frequency.
Fire.
Finally, there's something fucking happening in this movie.
That's right.
I really like them. complaining that he's the only engineer in
Starfleet that never goes anywhere in near engineering.
That's sort of like...
Are you kidding me?
That's where he spent the last 4 seasons.
Yeah, yeah, but he's just wandering around the ship.
What the hell is going on on the side of the bridge with all these
consoles and tactical displays?
They weren't there before.
Well, because well, because you have a wide screen shot.
I think the version that we're watching is not. don't know.
It looked pan and scanned, but I think it's so that there's things
on the edge of the screen happening when we have a normal shot of
the bridge, in widescreen, you know, because that set is so
sparse.
There's so little in it.
You know what I think is really telling about this movie is, like
you can tell which were the big moments, right?
Because, uh, about 90% of this movie is forgotten about in the
trailer, but there's about 3 scenes, and in the trailer, all those
movies, it's Picard meeting Kirk, it's Picard and Whoopi Goldberg
having the scene in the quarters, and it's the Enterprise
crashing.
That's basically the whole triangler.
So Lurser and Batour's breasts don't make it into the trailer.
They should.
A few more people would have got a watch. such great.
Somehow, they're sexy as hell.
I don't know how they do that.
Oh, they're tremendous.
I just love them. really, really good.
That was a terrific choice.
And they're pure next gen villains, and they're comprehensible to
a film audience who you haven't seen next gen, but maybe have seen
the films because they're Klingon women.
We know what Klingons are like.
I think it's... was a massive celebration of them last year
because one of the actresses died last year.
Oh, okay.
So there was this great celebration of Lerser and Bait, all these
2 sexy Klingons.
They're great.
Klingon women in the original series.
I don't think we did, do we?
No, I don't know.
I don't know.
Oh, are they the 1st Klingon women?
Don't know.
Like in substantial roles.
Oh my god.
Dr. Bev.
I'm now into the movie.
I was wondering why she was here, but she's here, obviously, to
treat Geordie, and there's no cigar there, but she doesn't get any
lines, but she's at least there.
Oh, I love Nurser Gow. too.
Alyssa, as she's known as her friends. you know?
Yeah.
After lower decks.
Now, I did like this location, which I believe is filmed in Las
Vegas or somewhere nice in America.
Again, I think that they had intended to go further afield and
stuff, but ended up not being able to afford that.
But I think this looks pretty good.
It does look good, but we're here.
There's too much footage, and after a while, it gets a bit dull on
the eye because it is, it's always sort of Mac colours, isn't it?
It's not very striking colours.
Well, I think, yeah.
So this is before a period of time where they can make alien
planets look actually alien, like we can't actually do that at
this and we will do it later.
And we can do it on TV.
See, this is the other thing that's becoming really kind of
apparent is, you know, the boundary now between TV and movies has
collapsed a bit.
And now we have TV shows that are very, very expensive and that
look as good as movies.
And because we have huge ass televisions in our home, we can kind
of enjoy them without, you know, sitting next to someone on their
phone.
Well, we probably do enjoy them with someone sitting next to us. on
their phone.
But whatever, you know, like, um, whereas here...
I think the boundary is obviously there, but I don't think it's as
big as it should be here.
Because like you go back and watch Arena, fine.
It's not done on the wide lenses and things like that, but they
are in a similar sort of landscape.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's a fairly cheap.
It's very achievable, honestly.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, here we go.
Yeah, yeah, yeah I think they made Beverly look particularly
gorgeous to make this joke land.
But also just the looks on the women's faces like that's properly
funny.
Bless.
Oh, there you go.
Did we get a line?
No, we just got Alyssa smiling at him.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I know.
Yeah, yeah.
There's that really hilarious moment where Picard goes into 10
forward and asks that bowling character where Soren is and the
bowling points and just sort of mouths something because he's not
being paid to deliver his life. one of the most sort of obvious
kind of, you know...
Did you see that?
Did you see that force field a minute ago when Picard tried to go
to war sorid.
Apparently they wrote in the script, we want the biggest sports
field. we've ever had.
May I say they succeeded?
Yeah, it just looks like a It does look a bit odd, though, on a
planet. crap.
Well, if it had been kind of like a hemisphere or something, you
know, like it would have sold it a bit better, but it's just a big
ass blur.
Do you know what's weird is this is was probably very expensive.
But I don't think it looks it.
No, it looks like it's some random bridge that they found on a
location.
They've just gone and acted on it.
Also, like that thing just looks like a Star Trek that X
Generation prop, like the big thing with its kind of, you know
like it's painted this...
Yeah, the rocket looks like it was on Deep Space 9 or something.
And like it's got that same kind of semi-gloss, non-reflective
surfaces thing.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it just looks like every other fucking prop. are you talking
about?
It was on the DS9 set last week.
They just picked it.
But that's what it looks like.
That is absolutely what it looks.
I just feel like they're going for something a bit more like
dramatic than what they're achieving.
And it's the same...
Here are the same... huge...
Techlobabble ribbon of energy. that's tearing towards the planet
but there's a rocket that's waiting to go up.
The octagonal crates, the octagonal crates that have been in it.
You know, like it's just the same old shit.
Look, there's that pal, but fell a wolf that time.
Do you remember?
that's right That's exactly right.
This thing in the cage is a bit better.
British actors here.
Like, and so this should absolutely pop.
It doesn't.
No, it's because the dialogue is really tried and we're having a
philosophical conversation that's just very boring, you know.
It's our morality that defines us so...
You know.
What if I told you I found a new truth, Nathan?
It's just a nexus. soaring.
Oh, here we are.
Very odd.
We're back on that.
Yeah, see this sort of comedy scene.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
They're just tracking Geordie around the ship.
Oh, but you know what, right?
These POV shots.
I swear we've had shorts like that in the next generation.
I'm walking around the ship like that.
No, no, no. isn't that?
I think you've spotted it, it is the mind's eye, isn't it?
Oh, you see.
Now these again, I don't think this comes off at all, but I
secretly kind of like it.
And I do love the...
Yeah, but I do also like his line, I love scanning for life forms
which I think is really great.
And if they've been playing data as not an asshole when he gets
his emotion chip, He's discovery that he loves doing this
important part of his job.
I think he's terribly sweet.
But I don't I don't mind a little... everybody in the set is
looking over and gathering and it's like every joke in this swing
is fucking laboured.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The one joke I thought landed brilliantly, was, and you love a bit
of swearing in Star Trek is when you go there.
Oh, shit.
I know, I thought that's something a bit different.
Yeah.
Yeah. that works quite well.
But what is this whole subplot with Lusser and Beta?
Is it just killing time?
Um, yeah, I don't know.
Are they trying to achieve?
Well, I think they want the weapon, don't they?
So Soren's developed a weapon that can destroy stars and they want
it.
So they can destroy stars and take over the Klingon Empire again, I
suppose.
Oh, right, okay.
Yeah, they were always up to that in the next generation, weren't
they?
Well, they were always trying to take over the Klingon Empire
weren't they?
Because they were the sisters of Duras and he was trying to do
it.
I can love that periscope that they pulled down on. is it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. pretty great.
Here we go.
Now we get some action.
Do you know, one fella in a minute?
He literally, in slow motion, goes straight over the tactical
console.
Yeah, fuck, I hate that.
Why are we doing so emotion for that?
I just saw rocks come out of that console.
I know.
And I'm there the whole time thinking about what I said about how
it is just a shitty, cheap way of portraying peril during a space
battle is that they're still doing it in the movies.
Yeah, it turns out we're all doing our jobs next to things that
will just explode. you know, like.
But you know why?
David Carson directed yesterday's Enterprise.
That was the 1st appearance of the rocks.
You can't quite get out of the mindset, you know.
Honestly.
But it's like, if a console's going to explode, you're going to
have half a quarry in your face.
But yeah, it just makes no sense.
They stuff them full of knives and rocks and then make them
explosive.
Like they're not properly insulated.
It's very crab.
Do we do we cut away from the action for a bit and have some
scenes in the nexus and then we go back to that or does this whole
action sequence play out with the Enterprise crashing?
Yeah, no, no.
Remember that the ship crashes and then the nexus hits, the nexus
hits the planet, then we're in the nexus, and then we leave the
nexus and the ship crashes again.
So we get to see that twice.
So this scene is finished.
We're going to crash as a result of what happens here.
Um, but, Yeah.
No, there was there was something a little moving about them
blowing the shit out of the sets, and it's weird that I say that's
the most moving thing about this movie.
Is your tactical guy going in slow motion, little thing?
And Moore and Braga say, look, that's the sort of thing we could
never do on TV.
But may I say I saw some slow motion rocks flying out as well.
Bravo, David Carlson.
Bravo.
Okay, we're going to kill them.
We going to kill them.
Fire.
He really made that happen.
I love the torpedo effect too.
Looks really good. the close-ups on their faces.
I bet it probably explodes everyone, doesn't it?
It leaves this in absolutely no doubt and there's that footage
from Star Trek 6.
Why does it keep using that?
They even use that in what you leave behind.
Do they?
It's the only sequence of a Klingon ship blowing up, so they've
got to keep...
See, this asshole's pretty excited in the background, like data is
as well, but, you know, like all of these people have just been
exploded.
More than crack I say.
This was a massive thing.
That brick Durban was pissed because that fellow goes, yes, before
Data said, yes, so it draws your eye.
And they were talking about going back and reshooting, that
thing.
Because the extra did that.
It stole the moment.
He's like, I'm going to take this moment from Brent Spiner.
I might be a day player, but I'll be remembered.
Nathan, we're having to find joy in this movie, you know, wherever
we can.
No, no, you know, like it's still, like, I'm, you know, it is kind
of boring and it obviously doesn't work in any sort of sensible
way, but it's still Star Trek and I love Star Trek, so I've got a
podcast.
I would like to sort of compare it to six, which had political
entry.
We spanned the entire galaxy.
We went to ice planets.
We had...
This is a step down from that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I went and saw that in the cinema and it was like Boxing Day.
It was released here in Australia, so we were just all kind of
what we do.
Let's go and watch the next Star Trek film.
And I think I was into Star Trek The Next Generation at that
point.
So I told everyone, let's go and watch the new Star Trek film.
And it's a properly good, enjoyable film, you know, in a way that
doesn't require a lot of good stuff.
I cannot remember a bloody line from this, but I can't believe I
kiss myself.
It must have been your lifelong ambition.
You know?
So much fun Oh, you know what?
Geordie La Forge gets to do that. fabulous.
You know, when the shield comes down in engineering, he gets to do
the roles under it.
Just as it all blows up.
This isn't the 1st time he says, cool and leak, we've got to call
it leak.
You know, is it, like, I'm sure that he's called out about a
coolant leak before.
Bless him.
I think they've redone that.
He's been rolling under those shields for 7 seasons.
So great.
They're basically doing...
I hate to say it, they are doing all the same tricks and, aren't
they?
Okay, so this kid, I think, has a tribble.
One of the kids is walking along and he's got a white fluffy ball
which I think can only be a triple.
You know, Brandon Bracko really criticises the factable. that
there are kids on the ship and he says, you know, I never quite
understood why Gene Roddenbury chose to have families on the ship
when, you know, every time we have an action sequence.
It doesn't make any bloody sense.
No.
He goes, but do you know what?
We spectacularly managed to forget that every week. until it
became relevant again.
Yeah, and they have to do it here.
But there's a little girl here and she's got a teddy and it just
shits me that no one goes to pick up the teddy after.
Like, come on, they're sort of strolling in this leisurely way
through these corridors.
Um, where it's coming, it's coming.
Yeah, drop the teddy and then they just all walk over the teddy
and the kid's crying and he wants, she wants to know where a teddy
is. bless her.
I've got her name here, that child.
She's probably 30 by now and she is Brittany Parker. domestic
angle to the show, the sort of the desperation of getting the kids
out and all of that.
And they never ever touched on that in Next Generation, did they?
Do you remember the opening sequence of emissary in Do Space
Nine?
where they're on that ship and you have those sequences, play out
on the ship, of the families milling about, people clutching their
kids, and it felt so fresh and different from the next
generation.
It feels a bit weird in the next generation, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Even though it's the premise of that show.
So the next Enterprise, the Enterprise A, he doesn't have families
on it and they don't do that again.
And I think it was because it was going to be a TV show and they
were going to have to do 26 episodes a year and they would have to
kind of have, you know, it was another opportunity to tell stories
about the characters lives, I guess.
Oh, Nathan.
Sorry to interrupt, but you know what?
Did you see him take those rocks out of that wall a 2nd ago
Picard?
That has so clearly been assembled for him to crawl through.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And Berman and Bragger go, why didn't we cut this shot?
Look at that.
They've just put a load of rocks for him to crawl through the
hole.
So this source of separation sequences from a counter at FarPoint
or the very beginning of it, I don't think that shot is, but the
very beginning of it is from an encounter at FarPoint.
And the thing is that they made such a huge fucking deal about it
in Encounter at FarPoint, that you always kind of wanted it to
happen.
Didn't you?
You kind of think, well, where did they separate us?
It happens once again, doesn't it?
Season one episode.
Yeah, yeah.
But then they never kind of do it.
But then after that, they never ever bothered.
Oh man, this whole, now look, they even make the joke on the
commentary about Troy being at the console, you know, as the ship
crashes.
This terrible woman's women's.
I mean, I'm glad no one says it in the actual film.
No, because she's not it's not her fault.
Like, it's like the glass cliff, you know, like when a party's
about to be voted out of office.
They say, oh, we'll let a woman have a go at running things for a
while so they can be voted.
Ironically, she's never been at that console before.
The 2nd she's at it.
Well, the ship crashes and is destroyed.
But the ship's crashed because they got shot at by Lurser and
Bitor.
Oh, you mean... and the people are stupid.
People are stupid.
They'll make they'll make the link between her and the console and
the ship going down and say, well, it's all Troy's fault.
Yeah, no.
I've got to say that, the the model work that they do of the the
saucer section crashing into the planet.
I mean, I can't tell it's modern work, but it is spectacularly
good.
It looks terrific.
And this is... sorry. since from the beginning of the movie, the
Kirk scenes, this is the best part of the movie.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, there's some action.
I mean, there's no stakes. everyone's gonna be fine.
But, um, like it looks so good, doesn't it?
And so they're actually.
Well, this actually does play out like those scenes in emissary
just obviously with a bigger budget, you know.
Yeah.
So this shot here, that's a model and they're on location.
They're outside, so the sky is real.
And this is a little model forest thing.
Yeah, but it's real.
It's real funny.
Yeah.
I think that the shots that we see on the enterprise screen are
just, you know, helicopter shots over an actual forest to help
sell it.
But it looks great.
I was going to say in this because I know you can do spectacular
things of CGI. and we've seen it in Kersman Trek.
But there is just something very tangible about model work, you
know?
Oh, look at that as it crashes into.
And all the mud lifts up in slow motion.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It takes such a long time to come to rest, doesn't it?
Yeah, I think it's great.
Man, 0 man.
If they did this in the actual series, it would just would have
been the best set piece ever, wouldn't it?
Yeah.
And it is great.
I love the fact we cut to Sick Bay.
We cut to engineering.
We cut to people, things exploding.
Yeah, and we're trashing them.
Whenever there was an action sequence on the Enterprise in the TV
series.
We never thought about that stuff, did we?
We never.
It was always on the bridge.
I also like how data seems to be hugging Marina and Marina's a bit
distressed.
But you kind of think, well, she could have, he could have been
hugging Wharf.
That would have been.
Oh, she thinks she's going to be out of work.
That's why.
The ship's good.
Completely destroyed.
I've got to say, you know, there is a sequence in the Blake 7
episode, Blake, where the final episode crashes down into a fire.
And it's actually, okay, of course it looks shit compared to this
much techniques.
The techniques that they're using though are pretty similar.
Yeah.
Yeah, it does look much shiter though.
So in generations, you don't have part of the deck springing up in
the air with someone sliding down into the guts of the ship.
What the hell is that?
So, all right, we're all coming too.
But I think this is the point of the movie where actually I was
like, oh shit, they've done something different here. things are
not going to be the same again.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's what you should be doing.
There's that shot.
Yeah, it's wonderful.
And then, and then there's a, there's a pan up over the saucer
here with all of the, um, people around the saucer.
Yeah, it's fabulous.
Now this feels like a movie.
Yeah.
That's right.
Yep.
But for me to have to say that, an hour and a half into the movie
you know, how far we are in.
But it's also, like, part of the problem is too, like, remember
they've done it already in Star Trek 3.
Right?
So they've already destroyed the enterprise and they lure the
Klingons on and they self-destruct the ship.
Yeah.
And so that's how they solve the problem.
It a big thing.
Here it's just like a very well aimed space torpedo and the ship
just comes down.
And so it doesn't, it's not super earned, you know, like it's not
earned.
And I think that's the problem with all of this.
So, like...
Like, there's a fist.
I see what you're saying.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we've got this fist.
Nothing's a payoff to stuff that's been set up.
That's right.
We've already said here that the threat is to people that we
aren't going to see that we've never seen, that we don't care
about.
We're just supposed to be impressed by this big number, and that
makes us think this matters.
In a 2nd, we're going to see a shot of the sourcer section with
people milling around on it and then it's destroyed.
But that doesn't seem to land or matter, and certainly no one in
the film seems to be aware that it's happened.
And of course, it'll be reversed and that's fine.
Like, I'm okay with that.
Um, And and just this guy, it's just one asshole, you know, who's
firing a missile and we need 2 people to kind of successfully
punch him unconscious or something.
Like I just, you know, like, it's just not a big enough deal.
You've got 2 very uh, conflicting visuals here as well because
they're using cheap ass, day for night filters on the cameras to
suggest that the sun's gone out and that's very TV.
But then you've got this spectacular sequence of the ribbon coming
towards Soren, and that feels like it's slept out of a movie.
Again, it's that very, it's a weird mix this, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, see, this shot is like the, there, look, look, there are the
people on top of the, on the source section, they're destroyed.
We get this shot of the planet being destroyed, which looks like
the Genesis device special effect from Star Trek 3 only better.
I couldn't see, but I think it was Nurse O'Gower and Mr. Mott on
top of the source section.
There are a few people.
No.
Nurse O'Gower's gone off with the kids.
She's a nurse.
Yeah.
Oh, no.
Oh Nathan.
Now, please tell me your story about when you mentioned watching
this movie with your friends.
So when I spoke to some of my fellow podcasters, my fellow FTE
hosts, and said that we were recording this, they all started to
do impressions of, they all started to say, you know, we love you
father, and stuff like that, doing impressions of these horrific
moppets that he imagines himself to be the father of.
It is a weird thing about 90s trek that every time they do
children, especially British children, they're so fucking
grotesque.
Awful.
Like, terror dress.
Like, these little princess frocks and stuff and she's dressed in
this sort of weird Victorian outfit for, like, known reasons.
It's dreadful.
Is this what Picard longs for, sort of Dickensian Christmas?
No, because he takes a hog on and goes and lies on the beach at
Riser.
He's DTF, Picard.
Why is his biggest fantasy?
that he has these horrible children. and there's, there's like 5
of them. and that's Renee, isn't it?
But it's weird because I think what they're going for is like sort
of idealised and picturesque, you know, picture perfect.
And yet it's just really disturbing to watch.
Yeah, it's gross.
The children are awful.
They're horrible.
I I, do you know what?
I like the doctor's family in real life better than this horrible
pretend family.
You know, even the perfect version of the doctor's children in
real life is better than this.
This is gross.
This is hell.
This is what, and, and, and he's drinking.
What's he drinking?
He's drinking a DJ stif or something?
He drinking a brandy after dinner, but he's going to have a cup of
tea in a second.
Like, no one's...
I feel like we know Picard pretty well by now, and we know that
this is not his fantasy life.
No, it's so unimaginative. so gross and it, it, like he's
deliberately chosen not to have a life like this.
He's chosen to go out and go on adventures.
Why is his fantasy?
So does the nexus sort of like try and make you stay by offering
you, you know, so what thought?
So it's so weird.
I mean, the thing is right.
We're told by Guynan in this interminable. sequence.
So is that that special Christmas order?
There's that weird Christmas bubble.
So is it meant to remind him that the star has just exploded?
No idea.
Yeah.
No idea.
At this point in the movie, I was like, what is going on now?
Oh, shoot.
But as well, because it rings so untrue to the characters as
well.
You've got no investment in this.
No, in fact, I think they do a better job of what Kirk's fantasy
might be like.
Actually I buy that.
I don't just him on the horse in a, in a big, lovely house in the
country with an attractive woman upstairs and, you know, like I
buy that.
It's made a bit more, um, a bit more realistic because we have
those lovely sequences in the Strange New Worlds pilot where
Captain Pike's down on the planet, in the house, in the middle of
nowhere.
And yeah.
Actually, if you've been travelling around space or you, you know
that is that, remember Cisco, you wanted that house on Bayshore
that you wanted to build, just a nice, quiet life with nobody
around.
Well, in fact, I think that the pike thing takes some
micronography from this film, doesn't it?
Like the reason that Pike lives in Montana or something, rural
Montana is because of where Kirk lived.
Why is Gynan here?
Because she needs to deliver some important exposition, which we
already need.
Guidance, is it?
No, it's an effort.
No, because Guynan is in some sense here because she used to long
for this place or something.
She's an exposition echo.
Yes, exactly right.
She's an exposition echo.
But I mean, we don't need this exposition.
We know what's going on.
I mean, if it needs this must, that, that little moppet there, that
little blonde kid, I'm sure that I've seen him.
Is he the little blonde kid in the holodeck program in in Early
Voyager?
Oh my god, it's not the kid from the Lord Burleigh Man. think it
might be.
You're not our governess.
And I shall not be doing my Latin or my Greek. think that is.
And I think too, one of these kids as well goes on to play Cindy
in the Brady Bunch movie, which you won't understand because
you're English and you didn't have the Brady Bunch on at 530 every
night, every week.
Excuse me.
I have seen the Brady Budge.
Thank you very much.
I've also seen the X-Files in X-Files in 5 Brave Brunch. 2nd last
episode.
That's it.
Yeah, I've seen that.
It's great.
Do you know what, right?
You know how they say about the odd-numbered Star Trek movies, you
know, avoid like the play?
good.
Yeah.
Well, I'm telling you now.
Star Trek one, three, and five.
Yeah.
They have some questionable moments in it.
But there's nothing fucking torturous at this scene, are there?
No this is dreadful.
I mean, this is just dreadful.
Where do they get these horrid looking children from?
Ugly, ugly children.
Do they have a book?
You know, do they look through?
These ones look suitably quartesque.
Well, bring him in.
I don't understand the period setting.
What is no?
I don't either.
What's going on?
So he now knows that he can exit the nexus at any point in time in
space and instead of exiting the nexus and going into 10 forward
and putting Soren under arrest before he does any of this stuff.
He decides that he has to go back to after when the enterprise has
crashed into the planet so that he has only a limited time to stop
him. there just seems to be absolutely no reason for that.
Guy and on a fairground ride. what is going on Oh, yeah, no, but
that weird thing where we couldn't quite make out what was
happening.
Isn't that him on that merry-go-round?
That why he's going around and around and around at the beginning
when he 1st turns up in the Nexus.
Yeah, see, I'd rather be here.
I don't know that I'd want. to be shocked.
I just got to go back to seeing the Enterprise blown to shit.
Well, it'll come again. you'll get that soon I mean, I never
thought I'd say this, but you know, I'd rather be back watching a
Klingon's tits.
Yeah, yeah. than Picard's lurid fantasy life.
Awful, dreadful fantasy life.
See at least Kirk's got a better fantasy, I think.
Oh, but no, you know what?
Like Shatter's in these scenes.
So automatically the quality of this film has just raised a little
bit, isn't it?
Yeah.
Well, he just has such a easy charm about it. that's right.
In a way that Stuart doesn't, like, and that character isn't
designed to be like that.
He's designed to be, you know, like he's softened a bit from how
kind of obnoxious he was in series one.
Um, but he's a little bit more kind of driven.
I do like how that is contrasted here because it's that wonderful
bit where he says, you know, you're a Starfleet officer.
And Kirk goes, you know, don't quote rules and regulations to me.
I was saving the universe when you were still out in diapers.
Yeah, yeah.
That's a really good line too.
I quickly use this moment to drop the moment where Braga and Moore
met William Shatner for the one and only time.
Oh, what did he say?
He manages to literally take control of the entire meeting. with 3
words as they walked in and they knew the 2nd they walked in, okay
whatever is the outcome of this, we're basically making the movie
that Bill Shatner wants to make.
Yeah.
They walked in and he just went.
They're so young.
And that's it.
He was in charge from that point on.
So, Stuart is 9 or 10 years younger than, um, Other than Shatner.
I feel like Shatner just has a youthfulness about it.
Yeah, you could never tell that.
But look at the big dog, and that is heaven is where you go and
your dog is alive again.
You know, like, that's a better fantasy than those fucking ugly
children in their edges.
I can buy into that more.
Yeah, yeah, Butler's still... in the country with a dog.
With a dog, you know, someone beautiful upstairs. rather than, it
does expose, you know, that Picard is the inferior character
here.
That is his fantasy life in comparison.
Yeah, but it doesn't ring true to the character at all.
It's just, I think it's like, is it Americans trying to write an
English person?
Like, I just don't understand it.
It's very bad.
No, I'm going to ask you something now and I never normally do
this and I can't believe I'm boiling it down to this.
But it's a question that's asked a lot.
Kirk or Picard.
Yeah, well, you see, I would always have said Picard, but I think
it's Kirk.
He's more fun, isn't he?
Yeah.
Like, Picard's a bit more thoughtful, but I think Kirk is just so
much fun to watch.
Yeah.
No, they're not just eggs, mate, friend. they're Qatarian eggs.
Of course they are, and they're weird space looking eggs, which is
pretty great.
So, you know, um, Sorry, uh, Braga and Moore said about this scene
where he's cooking breakfast. you know, people would expect us to
bring the 2 captains together and for it to be this massive
climactic sequence, you know, on a staff ship, that would be off
fame in the galaxy.
No, we decided to push against all of that and give them something
that they never expected.
Captain Kirk making scrambled eggs and Picard going to get the
ingredients and then they both look, look, oh, I don't know if
they're looking at each other.
I'm assuming they are.
They go, what were we thinking?
Yeah.
I mean, that's the thing acknowledge that this approach was not
the right approach.
Yeah, yeah.
So they're given $5000000 to go away and shoot the ending of this
and they, so they're given additional money from the studio to go
and fix the ending.
So at the beginning, like the original plan was to have Soren
shoot Kirk.
So he shoots him in the back and they did a test screening with an
audience and they're all there.
All the creative team are there as well.
And apparently the 1st half of the movie, people are enjoying it.
They're laughing at data's terrible jokes.
They're, you know, crying and whooping as the enterprise is
destroyed for some bizarre reason.
And then the ending hits.
Kirk shot in the back and apparently you could hear a pin drop in
there.
And then the movie ended and nobody was satisfied and they
basically went, it was good until the point where Ko died.
That was terrible.
And the woman that was responsible for bringing this all to life
it was Berman's boss or something like that, from the studio, said
there's £5000000 changed.
You got a good picture, but you got a terrible ending to go and
change the ending.
And so they they actually, this is a repaired version of the
sequence in the nexus.
Like they try and make it more coherent and clearly fail.
Um, and then the whole idea.
No, I think they've done all these bits.
Yeah, but I think that's in the camp.
They tied it up. reshoot here, but they do re, they give the, the
whole thing.
But you know what they did instead?
Do you remember caretaker and that aconizing sequence at the end
where they're going up that bloody staircase that's falling
apart?
Oh, okay, yeah.
You remember?
They're trying to escape out of the camping place, and Chakotay
and Tom Paris are going up that, and it takes 10 minutes, and the
staircase starts falling away from the mountain.
Well, that's this.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's, may I say, it's as undramatic and unclimactic as it is
here?
Yeah.
So presumably in theory, he's saving the crew, although no one's
mentioned that in the film, he's saving the Enterprise crew by
preventing Soren from shooting the missile, and he's saving the
people of Meridian 4, who we also don't care about in any way.
And I have just vacationed on Meridian 4.
And I have to say, I spoke to the political leaders.
They are appalled at your lack of care for their safety.
Yeah.
Well, tell them they can get fucked.
So all he does is he gets the box so that he can de-cloak the
thing and press the button so Picard can go up and do the things.
So it's actually not much better than having him shot.
In fact, it might be a bit worse.
But at least he has agency.
You know, he gets to leap.
He gets to do a brave thing and leap from one side of the bridge
to the other.
All of that, you know.
No, no, no.
That's captain fucking car.
Yeah, I know.
It's miserable He should go out saving the entire galaxy. some
spectacular way.
Instead, we're down on some miserable looking planet on his own.
He's not even saving his crew.
No, he's going up a staircase.
He just falls down into a canyon and I mean, it's it is
spectacularly ill judged.
Yeah, it's bad, isn't it?
And I think it is because they're not used to riding at the scale
that a feature film requires.
No, I think they're doing what they said that they were doing.
They were trying to push against expectations.
You're never going to think Captain Kirk's going to go out in this
way and some quarry would...
Yeah, and the reason you're not going to think that is because
it's a fucking terrible idea.
Like, it's just a bad idea.
It's a bad approach.
And if you're going to have, if you've got Duhan and Chekhov.
I mean, if they're going to be in this movie for a couple of
scenes, yeah, make that the climax, him saving them at least.
I also think too, this is the moment at which he decides actually
no, I'm going to go back.
And he explains it's because he's taken that jump before and he's
always been scared when he does it.
There it is again.
We get it done twice.
But because it's so poorly directed, we don't see what that jump
is like, we don't see him while he's doing the jump, so we don't
see what he's feeling, which is what it's a film.
You know, we should be able to see how someone feels.
Instead, he goes back and explains that.
And here we're getting that line of dialogue where he explains
it.
It's all just so...
I can actually remember that. watching this movie in the cinema
and during these sequences.
I was just so confused.
I think I was a bit drunk, actually.
I was so confused though.
I'm like, you should have tried that.
Why are we just watching them horse riding?
I don't get it.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Then there we go.
And maybe...
Nothing here is real.
Nothing matters.
As a TNG story.
Maybe we should be a little less cerebral and a little more impact
you know?
Which again is what they go for in the next movie.
There's not much thought in that movie.
But boy, it's exciting to watch.
No, I think there is, I think, the B plot on earth where they're
trying to ensure that 1st contact happens on schedule is exactly
what they should be doing and it is about what Star Trek is by
establishing that importance.
They gauge the emotion world, don't they?
Do you remember the bit where it finally happens and the Vulcans
come out and they meet for the 1st time and it's really
beautiful.
Yeah.
And that's a huge moment and they say what it leads to. is exactly
what this should be between Kirk and Picard.
But the thing that's, well, I've said that there's lots of things
about this movie that are very confusing.
But they don't need to pass the baton on.
No, original series ended in a spectacular failure in season
three.
TNG came along in a spectacular success in a vertical series one
but they built up their own audience.
They've already passed the battle on.
They've already proven themselves.
So what is this all about then?
is this all about?
Yeah, I know.
And the 6th film, like Star Trek 6 ends in a wonderful way, if
that's the last time we ever saw them, that would be spectacular.
You know, the 1st day on the right for Australia. morning?
That's why he didn't come back.
He said, I had such a great ending in six.
I don't want to spoil that It's a beautiful ending, and I think
they do spoil it by doing this by having sort of half the crew and
kind of its kirk and 22 of the lesser kind of secondary characters
come through, having Kirk die in this sort of futile way.
Like, I just think it spoiled.
For 5 minutes now, we have been watching them horse riding and
fucking about in fields.
Like the pacing of this movie is very odd.
This is the climax, right?
This is the climax of the movie and we take some time off to
celebrate Christmas with Picard's ugly children and then to ride
around with horse. just miserable.
Oh, dear.
Maybe this is the point where Picard finally jumps the shark.
If that's his fantasy life, he's irredeemable, you know?
Yeah, but the 2nd film gets it exactly right. doesn't it?
So it still has the big kind of thing, like it's got a character
arc for Picard, which is not groundbreaking, but it's coherent.
It's got the B plot about what the what the federation is and why
it's important.
And that's a peculiarly next generation thing, isn't it?
Because we didn't have that backstory in original track.
His big active moment in this is probably supposed to be the bit
where he cries over the photo album, isn't it?
His big active moment in 1st contact is the line must be drawn
here.
There's far and no further.
No, don't get me wrong.
I think it's just as badly acted, but it's far more memorable.
And it's fun.
Like, it's a fun line.
It's not like that miserable.
When they took the piss out of it, DS 9. with cork.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, he gets that set.
I refuse to bring civilisation end.
The line must be drawn here.
Oh, why are we watching DS9 instead of this bullshit?
Yeah, it's hard to say, isn't it?
Okay, so Kirk now is going to be a hero and take on Soren, I
think.
Yeah.
No.
No, he dies getting a box, which gets dropped by accident.
So, you know, in the in the beginning sequence where he goes
missing from the enterprise.
Yeah.
Did he just get sort of sucked into the nexus?
Yeah.
Oh.
And because that's that's where those guys were pulled out of.
They were rescuing them from the Nexus, but they were going to end
up in the Nexus, so that all of those refugees, all of those
refugees whom they rescue were actually all on their way to heaven
and then they got killed and sort of pulled out of there and
stuff.
Oh, that's quite a nice stump there with not Malcolm McDowell
hanging off the mountain off the thing.
Yeah.
Yeah, someone with Malcolm approximately Malcolm McDowell's hair.
I don't know why all the stuff around this one like staircase.
It just feels so cheap.
I don't know. and there's his remote.
So he's cloaked it.
Is he cloaked it?
So what happens?
That means Picard can't stop it because he can't see what buttons
to press because it's invisible.
Now we've dropped the box by accident.
We're following...
Instead of having Picard and Kirk in a prolonged and rather dull
and uninvolving action sequence.
I would have been far more excited had the pair of them, you know
had this been about an evil supercomputer, and the pair of them
had to be witty and bring down the computer, because both Picard
and Kirk would have different ways of doing that, and it'd be
really into that driftful old cliche.
It'll be really...
Just nearly anything would have been better than this.
Just anything. anything.
And I can, like, what's happening here?
So this is all the new footage now, isn't it, of a clerk hanging
off the bridge?
Yeah, and all of that.
But it isn't much of an improvement, I think.
No, I mean, what is it Indiana Jones where he's on the rope bridge
and it falls down the canyon and he's hanging.
I mean, that's way more exciting than this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. isn't it?
That's really properly suspenseful in a sort of literal sense.
Like it is possible to direct, just Carson's not up to it.
It's... so tacky.
It looks a bit like model work.
Yeah, it's not good, is it?
Like, it's not well directed at all, this action sequence.
Like, oh, there are those back.
You know, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that maybe Carson
is about 70% on the problem here.
I mean, the script is problematic.
Yeah.
No, but it is the incomplete transition from TV to film.
That's probably the problem.
And what's strange is that Frakes, you know, learnt his trade in
TV?
And yet he has the balls in 1st contact to say, no, bigger
bigger.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We will have sequences of people walking, walking over the saucer
section in spacesuits, you know, quite in the ball.
But it's why he's directing Star Trek more than 20 years later.
You know, he's because he's good.
Don't even, right?
He's the one that has all those drones zooming around the set.
Yeah, that's what you want.
See, he's...
I'm like you.
He's learned what TV and these...
It's to look like.
Oh, God, will the remote control fall or won't it?
Even that chain snapping looked really cheap.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it's also like, it's also poor old fat build, you know, like
to another.
Oh, no.
Oh, not very dignified.
Do you know when he heard that Captain Kirk was going to be killed
in this movie?
he fully endorsed it I think he'd had enough at this point.
I don't think even he thought it would be this dull.
No, because he had every right to go... so that's embarrassing
that shot where the bridge is skiing down the side of the thing
and then turning over.
That's a shitty, shitty shot.
He's still clinging on though, isn't he?
Picard goes over to that dreadful DS9 prop.
It's like, right, we're going to get the line into space.
Yeah.
He's gonna switch it.
Oh no, he's puts the locking clamps on.
That's right.
So it just explodes in place.
Do you know, I don't even think even insurrection, which I
insurrection again does feel like a two-part.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, TNG, just with a huge budget.
I don't think any part of insurrection feels as cheap as this or
as terribly executed as this.
Yeah, I think it has more of a coherent theme to it as well.
It's got a few ideas coalescing around old age and stuff that I
think sort of work.
It is just astonishing though, isn't it?
You think those 6 movies came before this?
With real ambition, real scales.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But, I mean, just, yeah, Star Trek just is in a movie series, and
I always sort of greet the news that they're going to try and
revive the movie series or do more Star Trek movies and stuff.
I just sort of think, no, it's television.
And it's television for the same reason the Doctor Who is
television.
It's because you can do something different every week And so this
is never like that.
This is never like having Star Trek the Next Generation on air.
Had Nemoy directed this.
I think it would be a very different movie.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, he's good.
Yeah, he direct... he would have said, what is this shitty ending
on the bridge?
Right, let's rewrite that.
Yep.
Yeah.
Even if they'd had Captain Kirk, I don't know, deactivating a
ticking bomb or something like that.
He confronts Soren.
They have a philosophical difference about what's important.
What matters?
Soren has decided that human mortality means that nothing matters
and it's okay to kill the people of Ridian 4 because they're going
to die anyway.
And so it makes life pointless, right?
Kirk is, you know, retired.
He's struggling to find life meaningful.
You know, why doesn't he confront the villain and like get killed
in that confrontation?
Why is he fucking trying to get the TV remote from under the couch
and then he falls off to his death?
Like, it's terrible.
And the way this is shot through the girl, it's so undramatic
awkward.
It's just awkward Oh, and apparently they're a big fight.
You know, he says, my god, or something like that at the end.
No, it's 0 my.
Oh my. insisted.
He goes, and that nobody else wanted it, and he said, I'm going to
say, oh, my, whether you want it or not.
And they were like, why?
And he said, because he's seeing something.
Yeah.
And that's it.
It was ambiguous about what it was.
And he would not budge.
But like there's something about death in this film that never
pays off and never really works properly, but he's kind of at
least recognised that that's a thing that's happening.
And if he's a voyager, if he's someone who whose whole life has
been travelling from place to place and stuff that this is an
entirely new journey.
I think his instinct's right.
He's off to seek out new life and new civilisation.
But, but, you know, that's a much more interesting take than not
doing it.
Jesus Christ.
Is this supposed to be a take on that sequence in Star Wars, you
know, where he sets the pyre alive.
You've got a card standing there with a bunch of rocks.
I mean, he shoved a bunch of rocks on top of William Shatner.
Well, how is he going to bury him in that landscape?
I just don't think that pile of rocks should have to cover
Shatner.
Or his ego anyway.
Oh, dear, oh, dear, oh dear.
Oh, now we'll get another cat rooms alive, I think.
If you've got, if you've got like a, an ill-defined threat, the
next test, and you've got 0 stakes, the people of Meridian 4, and
then you've got no kind of character conclusions.
No.
What was the point of any of this?
Yeah, that's right.
I mean, you know, like, and it was spectacle and it was a bit of
extra time to spend with the people that we had fun with for 7
years and stuff, but it doesn't really amount to anything.
Um, whereas I think...
I feel like this should just be it should have just been a lot
more fun than it is.
Now this makes no fucking sense either, right?
Here is data and he's talking about how he's overcome his
emotions.
He's going through the ship.
He either knows or doesn't know that his cat has been found or
not.
Why does it come as a surprise to him that the cat is there?
And only when the cat is there, does it even occur to him that
that's a problem?
Why isn't he worried about his cat?
Like, this makes no sense.
He like pulls the thing out and goes, oh, that's right.
I had a cat and then he starts to feel upset about it.
It makes no sense.
And by all accounts, yeah, Spoiler hated this scene, he was like
anything but the cat.
Let me find Geordie.
Let me find any ensign under there.
But not the cat.
And they were like, no, people love the cat.
It's going to be the cat.
I think it's adorable on the cat's cool spot.
I don't think that the genius of that name is properly
appreciated.
It's a dog's name.
Oh, I think it looks standing like the neighbours doesn't have
a...
Yeah, I've seen that.
He spends half his life in my house.
I tell you.
I would just be sneezing.
But maybe that's maybe that is a very good indication of the sort
of character disconnect that they don't.
Yeah, but they don't know, like, that makes no sense.
Does that make any sense at all?
Like, because if I had a cat?
And there was a wreckage at my house.
You'd be looking for the fucking cat.
He's talking quite calmly as if everything's fine and all my
emotions are under control.
And then he sort of remembers that he has a cat because he sees it
and it's still alive and then he's upset.
It just makes no sense.
Poor old Professor Gael.
See what he just picks up there.
He picked up the thing that Professor Galen gave him at the
beginning of Gambit part one, was it?
that thing. and then he throws it away.
So, you know, that was a priceless archeological piece, but fuck
it.
At least he's got his space photo album full of pictures.
This was the only thing I felt anything about.
Was these destroyed, gutted TNG sets?
Yeah, sets, yeah.
Yeah.
And what about his?
It kind of feels like the journey's over now, doesn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that's hot, the fish.
What was the fish called?
Livingstone.
They're all counting.
They all dead.
Yeah, fish is gone.
No, it was a lionfish, remember, in the in the little ball in the
ready room.
Can I not say like, has anyone died?
Yeah, well, yeah, some people had to be here.
The entire ship crash.
Is an Earth O'Gower okay?
Yeah, Mr. Mott.
That's right.
All right.
Two to beam up, come on.
I see this bridge in the darkness like this.
This is the most atmospheric...
It's overlooked.
Well, apart from earlier on in this film, I guess.
No, I think I think you can actually feel something about that
scene.
I know it's pretty long, but you actually can feel something about
that.
And the 2 of them walking around.
Yeah, I don't know.
I probably felt a bit more.
Do you remember when the defiant was blown up in changing face of
evil?
Yeah, but then they bring it back.
I think I probably felt, oh, yeah, I felt a bit more then, to be
honest.
Okay, so all off beaming away now.
Is that the end?
It is.
To the end.
Yep.
Merry Christmas.
Do you know, I think Dr. Beverly Crusher appeared in about 2.5
minutes in that movie?
Yeah, yeah.
Even Marina got more to do.
So you and I were quite on board for about 20 minutes of that.
Yeah.
And then we were very confused about the rest.
Oh, Miguel Barrett.
Oh, the computer voice.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh no, here we go.
Picard's kids, Matthew Collins, Olivia Hack, you hideous examples
of humanity.
I don't know which one of them is Cindy in the film, but one of
them is.
I think I'm told. don't know.
All I know is my nightmares will be plagued by those Victorian
children.
Yeah, yeah, just terrible.
Absolutely terrible.
Oh, visual effects supervisor Ronald B more.
Yeah.
That's a bit unusual. not his immediate older brother, but his
other older brother, just slightly older than him.
So, well, can I ask you to sort of summarise your thoughts of that
movie?
This is the 1st movie we've done.
I feel like we've shut all over it from a great height.
I think that they should have given us some time to miss the next
generation crew before bringing them back.
I know why they didn't.
You know, like, I think that they wanted to kind of launch this
into a new series of movies and wanted to make sure that everyone
was still under contract for the 1st one at least.
And I think it's unambitious and all of the, like all of the
faults that we found, the inclusion of the crew from TOS was
unnecessary and unbalanced the film, the climax makes no sense.
There's no stakes.
It's not clearly about anything.
Um, and it's a bit of a problem.
I think.
And the B plot with data is ill advised and. makes him behave in a
way that's obnoxious and that undermines his character.
It's not what what you want to see Brent doing.
It's not as Zillas vised as the B plot with data in nemesis, you
know, with that 2nd data that comes along and takes its place at
the end.
But, um, do you remember as well?
Like, when we did the commentary for all good things, and, you
know, you had some interesting criticism about that because a lot
of people will find out.
But we were both supremely moved by that final scene where they're
playing poker.
Picard comes in.
And like in that one scene, I felt more than anything at all in
this movie, anything.
And, and, and, you know, that just shows you can do it with 6
actors, a camera, and a tiny set, you know?
Yeah.
It's baffling.
I think it's a baffling transition from TV.
No, I don't, it's not a transition.
I think it is, this feels like a made for TV, Next Generation
movie, and I think the 1st movie is 1st contact.
Yeah.
But I mean, you know, insurrection is also basically, you know
it's a bit like birthright, parts one and 2 or something. like a
late mid-season 2 parter as well.
And it does all sorts of, uh, sort of ill advised things too.
But I think it's better and it's more coherent and it's a little
bit more forgivable.
And then just nemesis is awful, isn't it?
It's just sort of super upsettingly bad.
Yeah.
Do you know, I think sort of my summary of this is when TOS
finished and then the movies picked up the story, there were still
more stories to tell, we'd only had 3 seasons, half those episodes
have been terrible.
Like, you know, those movies did lots of different, interesting
entertaining things.
We've had 7 seasons of the next generation.
And they've been churning out all kinds of stories and they've
done fresh, interesting, like original things.
They've also done very tedious sort of things and repetitive space
problems.
But I don't think there were any more stories to tell, really, were
they?
And like even 1st contact, which is a really great movie, it's the
more threatening the earth.
It's going back to Zefron Cocker, and it's all stuff they've done
before.
I don't think there's an original thing in any of these movies.
But it's clear that they haven't exhausted all of the
possibilities that Star Trek affords because we're still
successfully making Star Trek over 20 years later.
I think there's creative exhaustion at this and it was very
visible in series 7 of Star Trek the Next Generation.
You know, they couldn't think of anything new to do, and it
becomes clear in Voyager where they're kind of recombining and
reheating old TNG plots and stuff.
And they're doing more than that in Voyager.
The only original angle that the franchise can take at this point
is that static setting of DS9 and consequences and long form
storytelling.
Yeah, doing that, let's not forget.
No one wanted to do that.
The studios were like, oh, you know, what are you doing?
This original storytelling.
And it is kind of sad because at this point, sort of the interest
in Next Generation waned with each movie to the point where
Nemesis came along and was considered the film that killed the
franchise, you know, until it was picked up by Kurtzman.
How long later?
15 years, a long time.
No, no, no.
I think until 2009, the Star Trek movies, the JJ Abrams Star Trek
movies.
Which was such a departure from what I'd been before, wasn't it?
certainly in how it was executed.
Yeah, I think that those are pretty successful.
I don't like the middle one very much.
I like the 1st one and the 3rd one quite a lot.
I think they're sort of enjoyable and they get the spirit of it.
They're well cast, you know, they're fun.
Like they kind of know to be fun.
Do you think this is the worst?
Next Generation movie, or do you think that's nemesis?
I think maybe nemesis, but it has been a long while.
So this is a film that I have gone back and rewatched from time to
time. whereas I don't believe that I've ever gone back and watched
Nemesis after seeing it in the cinema.
I could be wrong but it's just possible that I've seen it only
once.
So I might be wrong.
I might watch it and discover that it's aged like fine wine in the
last 20 years.
I doubt it.
I think there's a spectacle to nemesis.
Yeah, obviously, because it's made after this that far surpasses
this movie.
There's a sequence where 2 ships collide, that is extraordinary.
But there's a darkness to it as well that feels like a total
betrayal.
Oh, next generation.
Yeah.
There was a deliberate choice there, wasn't there, to get someone
new in and to get a different look happening and there was an
awareness.
Like insurrection look so much like a Star Trek, the Next
Generation episode because you've got the same people doing all of
the same sort of stuff.
And so they decide to get a new director and get a new look
happening and stuff.
And it just...
Which wasn't a terrible idea.
No, absolutely not.
It didn't work.
And I think the crew, the axes really hated the director.
And you can you can almost tell they are begrudgingly making this
movie with him.
But like, okay, let's let's very quickly then.
I just want to show the 1st 10 minutes with Kirk, the crash of the
Enterprise.
This movie is not without, it's Lurser of Betel.
Not without his highlights.
As a whole though, I think it is a bit of a failure.
Yeah, I'd agree with that.
I had some fun. here and there and it's Star Trek.
I love Star Trek.
But yeah, I think it is a failure.
All right, it's the end of the episode, and we are now going to
choose what we're going to look at next time.
It's my turn to hit the button on the randomiser.
So Joe, ask me what series we're going to be choosing from.
Nathan, what series are we going to be choosing from?
We are going to choose a Kurtzman Trek, so a modern Trek episode
from any of the 6 series that that comprises.
So Discovery, Short Treks, Picard, Lower Decks, Prodigy, and
Strange New Worlds.
It's wide open.
Eclectic bunch of TV shows. is quite a variety there.
All right, here goes.
Ooh, so it's Star Trek Lower Decks. series 3, episode one
grounded.
Oh.
Tented, you know?
No.
So series 2 ends with a cliffhanger, which you're probably not
even aware of.
And so episode one of series 3 resolves the cliffhanger or is
mostly about Mariner trying to resolve the cliffhanger.
And so she's grounded in both senses in the sense that, you know
she's not allowed to do things.
She has to behave, but also, you know, the captain's gone and blah
blah, blah.
What do you reckon?
No, I'm going to press it again.
Oh, balls.
I really want us to do lower decks.
Go on.
Okay, series two, episode 10, the Red Angel.
This is Discovery, Star Trek Discovery, series two, episode 10.
The Red Angel.
That's tempting as well because I know that's the one season of
discovery that you are a little on the fence with.
Yeah, and it's quite near the end as well.
I think they might be the big revelation or something about
Michael's mother there.
Isn't she the red angel?
I can't really remember.
I just remember she does a lot of crying about it, whatever it
is.
Yeah she does.
She does.
I'm going to give it another go.
Okay.
It's one we've done already.
Time of Mark Star Trek prodigy series, season one, episode eight.
Oh, that's a fun show.
Yeah, it is.
Okay, lower decks, Star Trek Lower Deck, series 3, episode 4 room
for growth.
Series 3 episode four.
That's not the DS9 one. is it?
No.
Oh, what a shame.
Yeah, so this is a little bit of a strange one.
It is a little bit of a strange one.
It is funny.
Obviously they all are.
But it's stuff about the engineering crew being overworked and
going to a spa and all sorts of stuff like that.
It's uh, it's fun.
They're all fun.
I'm going to press another button.
One more time.
Oh, okay, it's this.
So this is Star Trek, Lower Decks, season two, episode four, Mugato
Gumato.
So it is... this is really great.
Do you know what the Megato are?
They're sort of white furred alien gorillas with a big horn at the
top of their head?
Yeah, and the reason it's called Legato.
It's called Megato Gomato because everyone pronounces the name of
those aliens in that Star Trek episode incorrectly in various
different ways.
And so this.
This is about, this is about people who are, they have to sort of
deal with people who are smuggling and illegally trading in these
Gumatos or Megatos or whatever they're called.
And it's really, really properly funny.
I really like it.
So I think we're going with that.
What do you reckon?
That sounds amazing.
I'm almost certain that this will have the charm, character
development, and set pieces that Star Trek generations fail to
deliver.
I can guarantee it.
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find
links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 12th of December 2022 and
released on the 23rd of December.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Lower Decks, Mugato Gumato.
Guess whose go it is on the randomiser?
Yours.
Mm hmm.
I haven't had any thoughts.
Jesus Christ, I must go to the loop. clock. to the end. you dare
for that in at the end.
Me talking about Tom.
We've been recording for 2 hours and 33 minutes.
I know.
Fair criticism is about that, though.
Yeah, yeah.
Look, it's all right.
It's okay.
Like, it's just, like, no one died.
It's a Star Trek movie.
It's fine, but, um, just not very good.
I just think people love us when we're, We don't enjoy things
so...
We get more comments about those episodes.
Ah, what do I want to do?
What do I want to do?
Not Star Trek.
Do is do it.
What those guys?
Zika, Zika.
No, we've done a bit of that now.
We've done a bit of DS9.
We did a bit too well.
We haven't gone to Curtsment for ages.
We probably should, you know.
Maybe discovery.
Maybe strange new else.
Okay, I'm going to put that in as well.
We've only done ever done 2 Picard, so that's...
We've only done any lower decks.
Can't you just put elsewhere?
Put it all in.
Sorry, I hate to manipulate you like this.
No, that's good.
All right, it's the end of the episode.