WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-01 at 21:23:53

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Hey, Joe. Hi.

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So, we're back on Deep Space 9 after doing the siege of AR 558

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last time.

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I loved it, didn't you?

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Loved it.

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Not really.

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I decided that we would do another Deep Space and Iron episode is

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a kind of palate cleanser. and it turns out the 2nd scheme. did

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this once before.

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Do you remember?

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What did you do?

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What was it, TNG?

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Yeah, we had we had a really terrible TNG.

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Which we were both excited about and we hated it.

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And then you were like, oh, can we do another one?

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Just to remind myself why I like this show.

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Good.

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And this is great.

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I mean, this is so deep space 90 and so good.

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Just terrifically good.

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I enjoyed the hell out of this one.

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Do you know what I loved about this watching it was the fact that

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it pretty much addressed every criticism that you usually have of

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90s trek.

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You know, it's set in one room with just a few actors, you know

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there's very little visual interest.

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Well, it did play to a lot of DS9's strengths as well.

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The sort of labyrinthine plotting, the fantastic acting.

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When they get the dialogue right, like they do here.

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It's really, really sayable dialogue, especially stuff that

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Garak's saying more on that later.

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But this is a really interesting time for DS9 because we've had

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series one and that was, you know, mixed response.

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We went in, this is going to be the next best thing, you know, TNG

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was such a success.

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DS9 is going to be amazing and then everyone watched series one

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and went, well, what the hell was that?

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It's like some gold in there, but a lot of rough, you know?

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And then series 2, I think, up the ante quite a lot and they did

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some experiments.

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They did the 1st three-parter.

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They did the Marquis 2 parter, so they started doing this sort of

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cross series plotting and the run from the end of, I think from

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sort of crossover to the end of series 2 is a really strong run

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where people started saying, okay, this thing started to gather

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momentum.

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Then they bring in the Dominion at the end of series 2.

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And then they go all out with that at the beginning of series 3

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with the search.

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They bring in the Defiant.

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And it's like, okay, so this is something that's not being wrapped

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up, you know, from the end of the last season to the beginning of

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this, we're actually going to keep going.

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And even in like House of Corp, which we watched before, you've

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got a subplot where Keiko's saying things like, well, it seems

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like everyone's got the dominion on their mind these days.

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And boy, do we?

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But we are still doing a lot of standalone episodes in with the

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occasional arc episode where no, that sort of turns the corner

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sort of from series 4 onwards.

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And so we're in hit and miss territory with the standalones now.

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So you'll either have a complete turkey, like fascinations where

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Luxana Troy comes on board the station and brings the lung virus

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with her.

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Or the one where, oh, actually, I quite like this one, but some

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people consider it a Turkey, where Kira becomes a massive

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crystal.

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Do you remember that one?

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Stone, yes.

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I love that one Or you have stuff that's absolutely amazingly good

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like past tense, like through the looking glass, which is a great

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alternative universe episode, and things like the adversary, which

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does the thing on the defiant.

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Yeah, and I think 2nd skin is a particularly good early.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So when it came up last time, there were the obvious comparisons

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with face of the enemy, which also has like a leading female

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character waking up looking like she's from some other species.

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And I really like face of the enemy because it gives Marina

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something to do and she's really fabulous in it.

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She's so much more cool than she is.

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Marina and Carolyn Seymour in a room together. in high camp is

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amazing.

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Yeah.

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So, but that, you know, like that isn't as interesting as this.

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I think that this is vastly more interesting, and I think it's

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partly because Kira has a backstory, you know, there's stuff to

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say about her, and it kind of plays on the backstory, and it does

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the thing that other Deep Space 9s were doing right from series

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one, which is putting on our visitor in a room with someone else

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who is a good actor and just explore that central relationship, and

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we in duet.

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We have it in progress.

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And we have it here with Iliana's father.

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And it's really good.

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It works really well.

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Both of them are really kind of likeable and interesting.

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And the twist in the episode, I didn't see coming.

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I've seen this before, but I didn't remember it. and it's a proper

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twist. good.

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It's really good, isn't it?

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Well, I like the fact that you are being hoodwinked from the pre

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title sequence, you know, like they're making you look at Kira all

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the way through because that's the big sort of concept here is

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Kira is a Cardassian.

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So all the way through, you're like, well, they're trying to get

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information out of a, the wall is just a really good actor, you

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know, and he's playing on earth sympathies.

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And then when that twist drops at the end, you're like, oh, fuck

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it.

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I've been looking in the wrong direction the whole time.

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But it's not just a misdirection because it's Deep Space 9 and we

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assume that our regulars are the focus of whatever's going on.

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And so it's absolutely reasonable to assume that they're just mind

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fucking with Kira in order to get information out of her, although

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the information they try and get out of her is dumb.

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I mean, they could just sort of wander on the station.

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Oh, man, take a look around.

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The Federation runs the station.

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I wasn't even allowed into Ops.

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How many how many troops did they have?

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20, 30,000.

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Don't tell them I told you. okay?

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I love them.

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But they had someone on the station already who must have been

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able to know that.

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So that, like, that doesn't convince.

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But the twist that it's actually a mindfark of Gamore is so clever

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and so unexpected.

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I just thought it worked really well.

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Well, and by that point as well, we've gotten to know him and we

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like him.

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And they liked this relationship so much that he comes back in

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series 5 for a very sort of intimate character study with him and

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Kira, where it's the end of his life and he wants to deliver his

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military secrets to her or his intelligent secrets before he

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goes.

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This works twofold, doesn't it?

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It works as a brilliant character study of Kira, and we've done so

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much groundwork already.

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Like, you and I have talked about what's established in series one

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where 1st of all, she kind of confronts the fact that she's on the

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other side of the line now, that she's in the same position as the

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Cardassians.

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And then in Duet, we establish, you know, she has that terrible

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reaction to that Cardassian war criminal.

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And at the end of that, she comes to the conclusion. actually

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they're not all bad.

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Yeah.

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But it is definitely established that, you know, for good reason

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she is incredibly racist about...

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Yeah, yeah. good reason.

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So the worst nightmare for her is to wake up with a Cardassian

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face.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And that plays out brilliant here.

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So it's a great study of Kira.

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And again, she reaches that conclusion at the end of this that not

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all Kardashians are terrible.

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This is a good man.

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She doesn't help him out.

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But then it also establishes the obsidian order and the central

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command in series 3 of DS9, and then at the end of series 3, in

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sorry, in a couple of episodes time, we go to an episode called

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Defiant, where there's a ton of scenes with Ducat and Cisco as

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they're going after Tom Riker, and that's all set within central

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command.

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He works at Central Command, and the Obsidian Order is keeping a

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big secret in the Madeleine Cluster or whatever it is.

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And it turns out that they're building up this vast army of ships

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to go and attack the Dominion planet and that plays out at the

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end.

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And so there's this whole sort of suddenly the show's working on a

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big scale and it's setting up lots of different things on these

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planets that pay off later.

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So the previous episode, we'll get going in a sec, but I just want

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to ask, the previous episode, The Wire, which is a kind of Garak

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thing, there's something in his head that malfunctions and causes

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him to release great wodges of tortured backstory over the course

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of an episode.

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No, do you remember?

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He tells the story as to how he was exiled from Cardassian, but he

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tells it 5 times in different ways.

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And they're different.

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They're different every single time.

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So they're always like taking a piss out of these terrible

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backstories.

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And then Bashir goes, you know, which one of those stories was

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true?

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And he goes, doctor, they're all true.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, so, so we know something about him, like right from the get

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go, we know that he has some mysterious backstory and he's sort of

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exiled. from Cardassia and then it comes into focus in the wire a

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bit.

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But this is kind of the 1st episode where we actually see him

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acting as a kind of member of the obsidian order.

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You know, he's able to go in and give orders and he knows call

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signs and stuff like that. that's new, isn't it?

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It is.

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And this is also the, yeah, I mean, they've kind of revealed he

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has a shady past.

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They've leaned on him a couple of times, like in the station.

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This is the 1st time as well that he's ever gone with them as part

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of the and that's something that plays out a lot later on.

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So I really like what they do with this character here.

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He gets some really sort of great quips and stuff, but they also

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kind of like a more tells Kira at the end.

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Don't get too comfortable with him.

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He's not one of your regulars.

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He's not just going to help you.

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He will betray you if he wants to.

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And I think that that's a good thing.

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So we get to have our cake and eat it too.

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We get to have him go on a mission with them and kind of help out

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in sort of upsettingly unexpected ways in one case.

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And then we just get told actually, this is not the new status

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quo.

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He is still weird and mysterious and we don't know what motivates

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him.

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This isn't him becoming your friend or one of the gang or anything

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like that.

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And I think that's good, you know, to keep that going.

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They never forget that as well, do they?

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Because later on in this season, he's torturing Odo, if you

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remember, in the dice cast.

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Right.

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Oh, yes, the end of series four.

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He's trying to take over the defiance so he can send missiles down

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to destroy the changeling planet, you know.

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Don't tell me the Klingons would object to a little bit of

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genocide in the name of self-defence, you know, he's an anti-hero

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isn't he?

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And frankly, they're usually the most interesting characters.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Oh, and it's certainly, you know, like it's very different from

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anything that you would see on Star Trek the Next Generation, I

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think, and that's one of the things that they get to do.

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What do you think?

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Should we go in?

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Let's do it.

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I mean, I've got still more trivia, but I can drop it whilst we're

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talking through the episode.

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Excellent.

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Okay, so I will count it in.

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Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

250
00:12:08.940 --> 00:12:12.720
Okay, so can I very quickly just read you something from memory

251
00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:14.940
alpha that you might find absolutely fascinating.

252
00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:16.379
Yep, go on.

253
00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:19.799
So it says Robert Hewitt Wolf's original idea for this episode

254
00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:23.759
revolved around O'Brien discovering that he was a deep cover

255
00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:26.820
Cardassian, which would work as well because they've established

256
00:12:26.820 --> 00:12:29.399
that he's a terrible racist too.

257
00:12:29.460 --> 00:12:30.960
That's right.

258
00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:34.740
And basically the inference was going to be that the O'Brien from

259
00:12:34.740 --> 00:12:39.840
Encounter of FarPoint was a Cardassianation on the Enterprise.

260
00:12:39.899 --> 00:12:44.220
So they were going to like deep dive right back into TNG.

261
00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:47.519
But then they couldn't get past the idea and this was got to stick

262
00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:48.059
as well.

263
00:12:48.179 --> 00:12:51.120
So O'Brien actually was going to be a Kardashian turned into a

264
00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:54.179
human, but then they were like, well, no, but he's had Molly.

265
00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:57.480
So if he's a Cardassian chore, Molly would be half...

266
00:12:57.539 --> 00:13:00.419
And so they were like, okay, thank God we ducked out of that one.

267
00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:05.159
So they chose Kira instead, which is just an obvious choice. a

268
00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:05.759
brilliant choice.

269
00:13:05.820 --> 00:13:08.820
And did you say that they considered making it stick for Kira?

270
00:13:09.179 --> 00:13:13.799
Yeah, so the end of the episode, it was supposed to be ambiguous.

271
00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:17.220
I thought they were genuinely going to say, she's a Kardashian.

272
00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:19.740
They were actually going to, what he wanted to do was drive the

273
00:13:19.740 --> 00:13:24.480
point home that your identity is your experiences and not your

274
00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:25.259
birthright.

275
00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:30.480
Yeah, but he says, I'm glad we didn't do it. you know, like, it

276
00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:32.639
would have felt like a bit of a betrayal of the character.

277
00:13:32.700 --> 00:13:34.259
Yeah, I think so.

278
00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:39.240
So I want to know why no one is looking at the fucking camera when

279
00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:41.820
they're on these video calls.

280
00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:42.960
Like, Jesus.

281
00:13:43.019 --> 00:13:46.019
Nathan, I don't know if you can see, but there are faces there

282
00:13:46.019 --> 00:13:48.059
inside that glass window on the wall.

283
00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:50.340
I believe it might be reflecting.

284
00:13:50.460 --> 00:13:54.659
So we're in the replimat, aren't we, taking this personal phone

285
00:13:54.659 --> 00:13:59.399
call in the replimat, which is a sort of crappy nothing kind of

286
00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:00.240
said, isn't it?

287
00:14:00.299 --> 00:14:03.480
But yes, like no one is looking at anyone.

288
00:14:03.539 --> 00:14:04.860
I don't know what's happening here.

289
00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:09.659
I guess video conferences weren't a big thing yet in 1990

290
00:14:09.659 --> 00:14:09.960
whatever.

291
00:14:10.379 --> 00:14:12.240
Uh, here we go.

292
00:14:12.299 --> 00:14:15.720
This random woman just turning up, you know, to get the plot

293
00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:16.019
going.

294
00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:17.039
Yes.

295
00:14:17.340 --> 00:14:21.539
But I did like, I did like all the different methods they used to

296
00:14:21.539 --> 00:14:25.559
try and convince us that this could be the case.

297
00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:28.740
Because I think for like the 1st sort of 3rd episode, we're going

298
00:14:28.740 --> 00:14:30.000
well, there's just no way, is there?

299
00:14:30.059 --> 00:14:30.779
Go on.

300
00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:31.740
Yeah, yeah.

301
00:14:31.860 --> 00:14:34.679
So who is the person that we throw to who looks like they're going

302
00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:38.279
to be really important because they get the last shot before we go

303
00:14:38.279 --> 00:14:40.980
into the opening credits as if they're the crucial one?

304
00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:44.100
So she's the person that follows Kira onto the shuttle that knocks

305
00:14:44.100 --> 00:14:46.379
her out and takes her to Cardassia.

306
00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:47.639
Yeah.

307
00:14:47.700 --> 00:14:49.740
Because she's there on Cardassia, isn't she?

308
00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:51.659
He says, wake her up.

309
00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:52.620
What's her deal?

310
00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:58.139
Well, I just think she's maybe she's a Kardashian agent that's had

311
00:14:58.139 --> 00:15:00.659
extra latex put on her face to make it a bit different.

312
00:15:00.779 --> 00:15:06.840
Well, maybe she could have saved time and told NTech how many, you

313
00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:11.220
know, federation were on the base and all of that sort of thing.

314
00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:12.360
Like, for God's sake.

315
00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:13.080
She's there.

316
00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:15.299
They never wanted that information, did they?

317
00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:16.259
No, I guess not.

318
00:15:16.379 --> 00:15:19.200
They're just asking those questions to try and make her think, yeah

319
00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:21.059
that she is a spy.

320
00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:23.340
But yeah, all the different things that they use.

321
00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:26.700
So they use, obviously, the man in the minute who goes, you know

322
00:15:26.700 --> 00:15:27.600
you were there, weren't you?

323
00:15:27.659 --> 00:15:28.620
Ellensburg.

324
00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:29.879
Here, something.

325
00:15:29.940 --> 00:15:32.820
Yeah, yeah, you used to wear your hair a bit longer.

326
00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:35.399
So he just turns out to be someone, the Kardashians have paid

327
00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:35.639
off.

328
00:15:35.700 --> 00:15:37.200
And he disappears.

329
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:38.159
We never see him again.

330
00:15:38.220 --> 00:15:38.759
He's gone.

331
00:15:38.940 --> 00:15:41.700
They probably executed him, I reckon.

332
00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:42.720
Well, maybe.

333
00:15:42.779 --> 00:15:46.500
But, I mean, the thing is, right, that it could be true.

334
00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:50.519
Like, it's entirely possible that this is going to be an episode

335
00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:53.100
about the missing week in Kira's life.

336
00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:55.919
She can't remember the thing that happened to her when she was on

337
00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:59.399
this prison planet, you know, like, and that's the mystery.

338
00:15:59.399 --> 00:16:05.879
And so, so it's not obvious at all to us that they're not telling

339
00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:09.539
the truth. at that point in the story, right?

340
00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:10.679
Yeah.

341
00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:15.000
I think I think the only the only thing about the whole concept is

342
00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:20.039
we're just going, well, no, they're not going to drop the Kira was

343
00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:22.320
a Cardaskan 2.5 season into this show.

344
00:16:22.379 --> 00:16:23.460
No, no, no, no, no.

345
00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:24.480
But, yeah.

346
00:16:24.539 --> 00:16:27.179
And so it does become the how do we get out of this?

347
00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:33.000
Because by the time, like there's a moment where she loses it.

348
00:16:33.059 --> 00:16:36.659
Like she smashes the mirror and starts crying and that's the bear

349
00:16:36.659 --> 00:16:39.779
always comforting. absolutely love. for lots of reasons.

350
00:16:39.899 --> 00:16:44.340
But, because, because I was getting to a point where like they're

351
00:16:44.340 --> 00:16:45.299
never going to convince her.

352
00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:48.059
And then they show her the body, then they show her the

353
00:16:48.059 --> 00:16:48.480
recording.

354
00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:51.120
And I'm like, 0 my god.

355
00:16:51.179 --> 00:16:52.799
And then when she is convinced.

356
00:16:52.860 --> 00:16:54.419
I'm like, are we going here?

357
00:16:54.419 --> 00:16:55.799
When I 1st watched it.

358
00:16:55.860 --> 00:16:56.279
Yeah.

359
00:16:56.340 --> 00:17:01.379
And so for like 2.5 seconds, before the twist is dropped, I was

360
00:17:01.379 --> 00:17:02.279
convinced for a second.

361
00:17:02.340 --> 00:17:04.380
I thought, this is playing some really interesting games with me.

362
00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:07.859
Because the other thing is, it's kind of like how the hell do we

363
00:17:07.859 --> 00:17:08.519
get out of this?

364
00:17:08.579 --> 00:17:09.779
Like, what is really happening?

365
00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:13.019
This is, you know, it can't be this.

366
00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:14.640
So what are they going to pull?

367
00:17:14.700 --> 00:17:16.440
you know, like, what are they going to pull?

368
00:17:16.500 --> 00:17:18.420
And you know, part of the...

369
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:21.960
But I was still, I was still waiting for the twist to be like, it's

370
00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:23.640
something about Kira, you know.

371
00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:24.720
Yeah.

372
00:17:24.779 --> 00:17:27.000
I was never looking at any of the other characters.

373
00:17:27.059 --> 00:17:30.539
I was like, she knows something or she did something in the past.

374
00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:33.480
They're trying to get back at her for or something like that, you

375
00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:33.720
know.

376
00:17:33.779 --> 00:17:39.660
Well, do you remember future Imperfect where Riker thinks, like

377
00:17:39.660 --> 00:17:42.839
Riker is in this sort of holodeck simulation, he thinks they're

378
00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:46.740
trying to get some information out of him, and it is that kind of

379
00:17:46.740 --> 00:17:49.920
thing that's set up to be a kind of...

380
00:17:49.980 --> 00:17:52.619
I mean, this is a sort of standard Star Trek thing.

381
00:17:52.619 --> 00:17:58.200
And the twist is that it's not the main character who's the main

382
00:17:58.200 --> 00:17:59.099
character here.

383
00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:00.900
It's it's Gamore.

384
00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:05.339
And so that's kind of brilliant and unexpected and it gets out of

385
00:18:05.339 --> 00:18:07.500
it really neatly, I think.

386
00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:09.599
It's very, I think it's clever.

387
00:18:12.660 --> 00:18:18.119
Here we go now. off to Bajor to try and figure out, yeah, what the

388
00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:20.099
thing is, and that's, yeah.

389
00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:21.599
And it could have been, couldn't it?

390
00:18:21.660 --> 00:18:23.099
It could have been that she just had this week.

391
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:24.900
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

392
00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:25.680
Yeah, that's right.

393
00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:28.019
And they took her memories away because something so appalling

394
00:18:28.019 --> 00:18:29.099
happened or something like that.

395
00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:29.700
Yeah, you know, that.

396
00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:31.859
They've done that in Star Trek before as well.

397
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:33.180
Of course, of course.

398
00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:34.619
It's absolutely a thing they could do.

399
00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:37.740
And that's, I mean, that is part of the fun here because this is

400
00:18:37.740 --> 00:18:42.960
part of a long tradition of weird, high concept. you know, Star

401
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:46.079
Trek stories that dates all the way back to the original.

402
00:18:46.140 --> 00:18:49.200
And so a lot of things could be happening, I think.

403
00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:52.619
You know, the only time they've been there to actually get away

404
00:18:52.619 --> 00:18:57.059
with, um, you know, someone being a different species to the one

405
00:18:57.059 --> 00:18:59.400
that we thought they were, was Cesca.

406
00:18:59.460 --> 00:19:04.200
Yeah, but she's a secondary character, and that's the only sort of

407
00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:05.460
time they would do it, isn't it?

408
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:08.220
When it's somebody we see every now and again, and it's not really

409
00:19:08.220 --> 00:19:10.500
going to impact the series.

410
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:12.660
She's not in the opening credits or anything like that.

411
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:14.640
That was pretty great though, wasn't it?

412
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:19.140
This was such a savvy move, I think, because Bashir was not a

413
00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:23.279
popular character, but Garak was instantly popular. and bringing

414
00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:27.240
Garak and Bashir together in the wire and then having that

415
00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:28.200
relationship play out.

416
00:19:28.259 --> 00:19:31.680
I think people then started looking forward to these scenes, you

417
00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:32.880
know, just because Garrett was in there.

418
00:19:32.940 --> 00:19:39.240
And so is that the 1st is the wire when they 1st become friends?

419
00:19:39.299 --> 00:19:43.440
No, it's well, the 1st episode they have together is Garak's 2nd

420
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:46.619
episode, Cardassians, where he keeps waking him up in the middle

421
00:19:46.619 --> 00:19:50.039
of the night saying, come on, doctor, we're going to Bijor to

422
00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:52.380
figure out what's happening with these Cardassian orphans.

423
00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:56.819
Um, But of course, there's a really funny line in this scene.

424
00:19:56.880 --> 00:19:58.380
Which one?

425
00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:03.480
So it's the one where he really wants to be able to say I haven't

426
00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:06.960
left this station in a number of years, except that we did an

427
00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:09.839
episode where the 2 of them went somewhere.

428
00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:13.859
And so he has to say, apart from that episode that we had.

429
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:22.140
There's a wonderful line in the wire where he says to Bashir was

430
00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:22.500
said.

431
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:26.819
I can't believe I enjoyed eating mediocre food and the highlight

432
00:20:26.819 --> 00:20:30.359
of my week was having lunch with you..

433
00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:33.000
Savage, isn't he, when you want to?

434
00:20:36.059 --> 00:20:38.940
Okay, so we're about to head to Cardassia now, aren't we?

435
00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:39.900
Yeah, yeah.

436
00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:42.180
So she's disappeared.

437
00:20:42.299 --> 00:20:43.859
Here we are on Cardassia.

438
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:48.660
And I really like Cardassian decor.

439
00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:49.619
I'm a big fan.

440
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:51.720
And I think it was a great idea, mate.

441
00:20:51.779 --> 00:20:52.680
You must lop a station then.

442
00:20:52.740 --> 00:20:54.839
It was kind of making this day. station.

443
00:20:54.900 --> 00:20:55.500
Yeah, that's right.

444
00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:58.019
Making the station Cardassian, other than Federation, we've said

445
00:20:58.019 --> 00:20:59.640
before, is a work of genius.

446
00:20:59.700 --> 00:21:00.000
Here we go.

447
00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:03.480
So there is the money shot.

448
00:21:03.539 --> 00:21:05.940
It's her looking in the mirror.

449
00:21:06.180 --> 00:21:09.299
It's nice that they wait a 2nd as well, isn't it?

450
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:10.559
sort of in the half dark.

451
00:21:10.619 --> 00:21:11.819
Yeah, yeah.

452
00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:14.460
I mean, they did the same thing in face of the enemy.

453
00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:16.799
Do you remember, the whole pre-type sequence is in darkness.

454
00:21:16.859 --> 00:21:20.339
She goes up to the mirror, then turns the line and just goes, oh.

455
00:21:20.339 --> 00:21:27.660
Like, this is all a bit subtle compared to face of the enemy, you

456
00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:27.900
know?

457
00:21:28.019 --> 00:21:31.740
So she's put a lot of makeup on or they've put makeup on her while

458
00:21:31.740 --> 00:21:32.640
she's been asleep.

459
00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:38.880
So are we assuming, so the spoonhead, right, the Cardassian ladies

460
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:40.619
like put eyeshadow on that.

461
00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:41.519
Is that what's happening?

462
00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:48.480
And I think they do one of the neck things, like the neck things

463
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:51.480
are sometimes coloured as well, and then she's wearing sort of

464
00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:52.319
black.

465
00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:56.039
And so what she called, she's called Iliana and things.

466
00:21:56.099 --> 00:21:57.960
It's almost like...

467
00:21:58.019 --> 00:22:02.099
Yeah, yeah, she's like a Russian agent or something, you know?

468
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:05.279
Well, that's the idea of the Cardassian, isn't it?

469
00:22:05.339 --> 00:22:10.559
A sort of Russian intelligence and yeah, but it's also, you know

470
00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:13.079
like there's that thing about an occupying force.

471
00:22:13.140 --> 00:22:15.119
There's something about the Cardassians.

472
00:22:15.180 --> 00:22:18.660
You know, you think of like the Romulans or the Klingons, it's

473
00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:22.140
like the Cold War and there's just 2 big power blocks and stuff.

474
00:22:22.259 --> 00:22:25.920
And the Carnassians come in when that narrative is breaking down

475
00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:28.799
which it is in the 90s where things are localised.

476
00:22:28.859 --> 00:22:31.920
There's stuff happening in the Middle East and things and so on.

477
00:22:31.980 --> 00:22:35.700
And so I kind of think the Cardassians kind of come from that, you

478
00:22:35.700 --> 00:22:42.599
know, the idea of occupying force. is different, I think, from

479
00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:44.160
Russia.

480
00:22:44.220 --> 00:22:48.119
Because I think in Star Trek, the next generation, it's like the

481
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:50.160
Romulans are like the Russians, aren't they?

482
00:22:50.220 --> 00:22:54.359
Like when we go in unification parts, one and two, we go and they

483
00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:59.279
have a secret police, the Talshiar and the population.

484
00:22:59.339 --> 00:23:02.880
Yeah. the population are kind of scared of them and stuff like

485
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:03.119
that.

486
00:23:03.299 --> 00:23:04.740
Yeah.

487
00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:11.099
And I think the Cardassians are probably more successful attempt

488
00:23:11.099 --> 00:23:12.900
at doing that than the Romulans.

489
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:16.319
They sort of lose the Robbie in the summer along the way in 90s

490
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:17.039
trek, don't they?

491
00:23:17.099 --> 00:23:18.180
And this took over.

492
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:22.740
It's like the big evil force in the Alpha Quadron.

493
00:23:23.339 --> 00:23:25.019
Yeah, yeah.

494
00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:27.299
And it's because they've got a whole show centred on them.

495
00:23:28.259 --> 00:23:33.660
Yeah, well, quiet, come the end of DS9, you know, you're spending

496
00:23:33.660 --> 00:23:37.200
half your episodes on Cardassia Prime watching that drama play

497
00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:37.380
out.

498
00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:38.160
Yeah.

499
00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:41.519
Oh, I love those scenes whilst weighing in a divar, isn't it?

500
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:41.819
You know?

501
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:44.700
Yeah.

502
00:23:44.819 --> 00:23:49.019
And it's like we said before, they do that savvy move of having

503
00:23:49.019 --> 00:23:55.619
very vivid characters representing like the Cardassians, you

504
00:23:55.619 --> 00:23:55.859
know?

505
00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:58.079
So you want to go back to them all the time.

506
00:23:58.380 --> 00:24:02.160
Intake was supposed to be a regular, you know, originally.

507
00:24:02.220 --> 00:24:05.640
Oh, so they were thinking of that he was going to come back like

508
00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:06.299
Dukar.

509
00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:08.460
So they were going to have the sort of a series of Cardassian

510
00:24:08.460 --> 00:24:09.000
regulars.

511
00:24:09.059 --> 00:24:11.759
And then at the end of the episode, they were like, no, we really

512
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:15.599
wanted to drive over the point. don't trust Garak because the

513
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:16.920
inference is these 2 were friends.

514
00:24:16.980 --> 00:24:19.740
And then he just murders him at the end of the episode.

515
00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:22.259
I rather liked him, you know?

516
00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:26.819
That's such a great line. guy is pretty great.

517
00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:27.240
I think.

518
00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:29.819
Obviously, Paul is brilliant, I think.

519
00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:33.299
This dialogue is not always easy to get your mouth around, you

520
00:24:33.299 --> 00:24:35.940
know, and they make it, they make it effortless.

521
00:24:37.019 --> 00:24:41.039
Um, there's a great story about, I could never get this right.

522
00:24:41.099 --> 00:24:42.180
No, no, Nana.

523
00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:42.660
Nana, nana.

524
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:43.559
Oh, I think Nana.

525
00:24:43.619 --> 00:24:44.819
I keep hearing that now.

526
00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:48.960
No, no, our visitor was like, okay, no, I'm done for the day

527
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:53.039
because she was claustrophobic and they obviously put her in this

528
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:53.279
car.

529
00:24:53.339 --> 00:24:56.220
That's your makeup and director was like, no, no, no, we've still

530
00:24:56.220 --> 00:24:57.059
got more shots to do.

531
00:24:57.059 --> 00:25:00.240
And she's like, no, you don't realise I am done.

532
00:25:00.299 --> 00:25:02.880
And she started ripping the makeup off her face.

533
00:25:04.500 --> 00:25:08.160
I think of all the people, of all the actors on DS9.

534
00:25:08.460 --> 00:25:10.859
She was the one that was in charge of herself, you know?

535
00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:11.640
Right.

536
00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:11.940
Yeah.

537
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:12.480
Yeah.

538
00:25:12.539 --> 00:25:14.940
She could just get away with it. a great story, you know.

539
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:20.099
Totally off piece of her going up to Ira Stephen Beer in Ops and

540
00:25:20.099 --> 00:25:22.079
going, what the hell is this?

541
00:25:22.140 --> 00:25:25.440
You're putting me and Odo together and they had a scathing row

542
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:27.539
over the console in Ops.

543
00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:30.059
But she knew her mind.

544
00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:31.619
Look at that.

545
00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:37.559
The matte painting of the exterior of Cardassia with the big, uh

546
00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:40.140
the big TV, the big.

547
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:42.359
Is that supposed to be sort of very Orwellian?

548
00:25:42.420 --> 00:25:43.559
Is that, is that the idea?

549
00:25:43.559 --> 00:25:45.839
I would say, like, the big, big brother is watching you.

550
00:25:45.900 --> 00:25:46.619
Yeah.

551
00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:50.279
I mean, it's not the best effects in the world and they do get

552
00:25:50.279 --> 00:25:51.000
better at doing it.

553
00:25:51.059 --> 00:25:53.160
But it does drive the point home, doesn't it?

554
00:25:53.220 --> 00:25:55.619
That they're constantly getting this propaganda in their ears.

555
00:25:55.740 --> 00:25:56.640
Yeah.

556
00:25:56.700 --> 00:25:57.420
Yeah.

557
00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:04.980
Which then makes domestic dissident something that is credible

558
00:26:04.980 --> 00:26:06.660
because have we had that before?

559
00:26:06.779 --> 00:26:10.740
Like have we had any Cardassian dissidents before?

560
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:13.500
We know about the Oxidian order?

561
00:26:13.559 --> 00:26:14.400
think so.

562
00:26:14.460 --> 00:26:16.440
I don't think so.

563
00:26:16.500 --> 00:26:18.720
But it's something that comes up again, because I think they try

564
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:22.920
and get them off planet in Way of the Warrior at one point.

565
00:26:22.980 --> 00:26:26.759
The the Tapa Council, you know, which is the dissidents that have

566
00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:27.900
taken control of the government.

567
00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:28.799
Right.

568
00:26:28.859 --> 00:26:33.059
It is a lot, it is a lovely little thread that runs through DS9. of

569
00:26:33.059 --> 00:26:35.220
the Cardassian politics and how that changes.

570
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:39.900
And somehow you can't always in charge of something.

571
00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:42.960
Well, I mean, it's Markelema.

572
00:26:43.019 --> 00:26:44.099
We wanted to charge, you know.

573
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:45.900
Charming as hell.

574
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:50.220
And speaking of charming, we have Lawrence Bressman here.

575
00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:51.900
Ascamore.

576
00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:54.660
Do you know, he was in an X-File episodes.

577
00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:55.559
Did you ever see that one?

578
00:26:55.619 --> 00:26:56.940
Which way?

579
00:26:56.940 --> 00:27:01.500
It was this crazy cult that kidnapped Scully, and they wanted to

580
00:27:01.500 --> 00:27:04.980
put this horrible slug in her, and he was head of the cult, and he

581
00:27:04.980 --> 00:27:07.019
was absolutely chilling.

582
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:08.640
He was so scary in it.

583
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:13.920
It says like early on that when she gets kidnapped, it's once

584
00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:16.079
Robert Patrick's in it, so the acting's really good.

585
00:27:16.140 --> 00:27:17.220
Oh, okay.

586
00:27:17.220 --> 00:27:19.980
So everyone stopped watching at this point, which is a shame.

587
00:27:19.980 --> 00:27:23.759
But you've got scenes of him smiling his head off as horrific acts

588
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:25.680
of violence are occurring just over his shoulder.

589
00:27:25.740 --> 00:27:27.779
It's really scary.

590
00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:31.259
He is really good here.

591
00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:35.519
And never for a 2nd did I think he was faking it?

592
00:27:35.579 --> 00:27:38.279
Like, I could, like, he's playing.

593
00:27:38.339 --> 00:27:39.180
Yep.

594
00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:39.839
Yep.

595
00:27:39.900 --> 00:27:44.339
I just thought he also thought that Kira was his daughter, that he

596
00:27:44.339 --> 00:27:46.200
genuinely believed it.

597
00:27:46.259 --> 00:27:47.279
And I mean last night.

598
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:49.079
It's a bit of a double-edged some memories.

599
00:27:49.380 --> 00:27:52.140
If he played it sort of knowingly.

600
00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:52.920
Yeah.

601
00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:54.779
Like, obviously, the actress read the script.

602
00:27:54.839 --> 00:27:55.859
He knows where this is going.

603
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:59.279
He knows as far as his character is concerned, this is genuine.

604
00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:03.480
Yeah, it wouldn't, it would, it would ring false, wouldn't it, if

605
00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:05.819
he was playing it sort of slightly.

606
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:07.019
I'm putting this on.

607
00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:10.079
Yeah, and if he was putting it on, that would ruin it.

608
00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:13.680
Like if he was kind of leering or unconvincing, but he's really

609
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:18.180
properly convincing like he really sells that it's that she's his

610
00:28:18.180 --> 00:28:18.480
daughter.

611
00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:22.500
Although, I don't know, they found somebody who looks so like his

612
00:28:22.500 --> 00:28:22.859
daughter.

613
00:28:22.859 --> 00:28:26.819
They even say that his daughter just looks exactly like her.

614
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:29.339
It just doesn't matter. fair enough.

615
00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:30.059
Whatever.

616
00:28:30.299 --> 00:28:33.000
We just got to go with it, haven't we?

617
00:28:33.059 --> 00:28:36.539
That's the thing, every major race. very...

618
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:40.140
With these very constructive episodes with twists, there are few

619
00:28:40.140 --> 00:28:41.759
allowances you use.

620
00:28:41.819 --> 00:28:42.660
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

621
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:43.079
Yeah.

622
00:28:43.140 --> 00:28:44.160
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

623
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:46.859
And I think the rewards are worth the allowances here.

624
00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:47.519
Yeah.

625
00:28:47.579 --> 00:28:48.240
Yeah, yeah.

626
00:28:48.299 --> 00:28:49.259
It's not always the case.

627
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:56.099
So is he the one he, he is about this.

628
00:28:56.220 --> 00:28:59.759
He hears about this and he alerts them.

629
00:28:59.819 --> 00:29:03.059
So he's on the rescue mission, isn't he?

630
00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:04.799
Yeah, about Garak's contacts.

631
00:29:04.859 --> 00:29:06.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

632
00:29:06.539 --> 00:29:07.319
Yeah, that's right.

633
00:29:07.380 --> 00:29:07.920
I just remember that bit.

634
00:29:07.980 --> 00:29:09.720
And in the power moonlight where he says, oh, I can't take it

635
00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:11.039
all.

636
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:11.640
They're all dead.

637
00:29:11.700 --> 00:29:12.420
They're all dead.

638
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:13.019
Yeah.

639
00:29:13.019 --> 00:29:13.559
Yeah.

640
00:29:13.619 --> 00:29:14.339
Yeah.

641
00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:19.079
Although there is a very funny bit in improbable cause later on in

642
00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:22.920
the season where he's got to take a load of people and he finds

643
00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:26.039
out they're all dead and they're basically all of his enemies.

644
00:29:26.099 --> 00:29:29.099
He's deliberately contacted them, given them this information, so

645
00:29:29.099 --> 00:29:30.359
they'll all be executed.

646
00:29:30.420 --> 00:29:31.259
It's great.

647
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:34.380
So that's the big one.

648
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:36.900
That's the big 2 part of where we actually find out something

649
00:29:36.900 --> 00:29:39.539
substantial about his backstory, right?

650
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:42.539
Improbable quality. when Albertain comes in, doesn't he?

651
00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:46.500
And it shows there's a lies between the Romulans and the

652
00:29:46.500 --> 00:29:48.240
Cardassians, they're going off to destroy.

653
00:29:48.299 --> 00:29:52.500
It's a big sort of both character and arc, 2 part type.

654
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:53.460
Right.

655
00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:55.980
Yeah, that's kind of fun.

656
00:29:55.980 --> 00:29:57.059
I'm still not sure, you know.

657
00:29:57.180 --> 00:29:58.559
I'm still not sure that's the best of the season.

658
00:29:58.619 --> 00:30:01.319
I still think past tense might be the best of the season.

659
00:30:01.380 --> 00:30:03.180
Which is an arc at all.

660
00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:04.619
It is really good, isn't it?

661
00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:05.819
I really like it a lot.

662
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:11.099
Oh, these, I just, I just love him trying to reach out to her

663
00:30:11.099 --> 00:30:11.940
constantly.

664
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:14.160
And she's been so horrible to him, isn't she?

665
00:30:14.220 --> 00:30:15.539
She goes, you're good.

666
00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:16.559
Really good.

667
00:30:17.099 --> 00:30:20.700
You're never going to convince me that I'm a Cardassian.

668
00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:26.579
Yeah, look, see, see, if you look at her makeup and they do this

669
00:30:26.579 --> 00:30:29.220
with all the female Cardassians, not that there are that many of

670
00:30:29.220 --> 00:30:35.099
them, she's got some blue paint on the neck, like one of those

671
00:30:35.099 --> 00:30:38.519
sort of neck scales on each side is painted blue.

672
00:30:38.579 --> 00:30:39.480
It's so weird.

673
00:30:39.720 --> 00:30:43.500
I like all the little details that they add, you know, where he

674
00:30:43.500 --> 00:30:47.700
talks about his wife being an inquisitor at the library or

675
00:30:47.700 --> 00:30:48.299
something like that.

676
00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:52.319
And so you, and he's obviously got a position that he's quite

677
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:53.220
privileged as well.

678
00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:57.539
So, there's still this sort of sense that, yeah, he's a nice guy.

679
00:30:57.660 --> 00:31:02.160
But my, you know, I don't necessarily do nice things.

680
00:31:02.220 --> 00:31:02.940
Yeah.

681
00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:03.480
Yeah.

682
00:31:03.539 --> 00:31:05.759
Inquisitor at a university made.

683
00:31:05.819 --> 00:31:09.299
I just thought it meant a researcher or someone who examined, like

684
00:31:09.299 --> 00:31:10.859
did examinations or something.

685
00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:14.940
It's a slightly sinister title, but he Inquisitive truth, isn't

686
00:31:14.940 --> 00:31:15.059
it?

687
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:15.779
Yeah, it's that word.

688
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:19.980
But he's like he's rich and privileged and his daughter has gone

689
00:31:19.980 --> 00:31:23.460
off in this sort of super patriotic way to do this thing.

690
00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:32.579
I know you're going to mock this, but I've got to say anyway.

691
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:36.000
I like the fact that they put a window in this room and I like the

692
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:38.220
fact that they changed the lighting from day to night all the

693
00:31:38.220 --> 00:31:38.400
time.

694
00:31:38.519 --> 00:31:42.059
And it just means it's more visually interesting than just being

695
00:31:42.059 --> 00:31:43.079
stuck in a room, you know?

696
00:31:43.140 --> 00:31:44.039
Yeah.

697
00:31:44.099 --> 00:31:47.880
Also, there's something really sort of glamorously, like, look at

698
00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:49.559
how deco the furniture is.

699
00:31:49.619 --> 00:31:52.079
It's so...

700
00:31:52.140 --> 00:31:53.759
I mean, how'd you put anything on that table?

701
00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:57.059
It's, it looks great.

702
00:31:57.119 --> 00:31:59.220
The furniture looks really, really terrific.

703
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:01.200
I love this scene so much.

704
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:07.259
It's Cisco and Garak, and he's trying to basically blackmail him

705
00:32:07.619 --> 00:32:08.940
going on the mission.

706
00:32:08.940 --> 00:32:09.599
Yeah, to come in.

707
00:32:09.900 --> 00:32:14.579
But this is very witty dialogue where it's like, if there's any

708
00:32:14.579 --> 00:32:17.279
sign of danger, commander, you're on your own.

709
00:32:17.339 --> 00:32:18.299
Mr. Carrick.

710
00:32:18.359 --> 00:32:20.279
That's the 1st time you've ever been honest with me.

711
00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:22.380
How perceptive of you, commander.

712
00:32:25.859 --> 00:32:30.180
Yes, if I was left on God, I see, do you think I'd be here?

713
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:31.079
Like, really?

714
00:32:31.380 --> 00:32:33.059
Do you know what?

715
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:37.019
The line that made me laugh the most when it goes, why would I

716
00:32:37.019 --> 00:32:38.880
care what the Bajoran government think of me?

717
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:42.599
So this is the thread.

718
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:49.079
Wow, that's so good. isn't it has been pulling this trick off

719
00:32:49.140 --> 00:32:50.339
since emissary.

720
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:51.900
Do you remember with Corp?

721
00:32:52.019 --> 00:32:55.259
He does with, uh, with, right?

722
00:32:55.319 --> 00:32:56.759
You know, you know what?

723
00:32:56.819 --> 00:32:58.440
First I didn't think I was going to like him.

724
00:32:59.099 --> 00:33:04.980
And in this, when Garak's in his mind and he's like, oh, okay, you

725
00:33:04.980 --> 00:33:05.759
know, I've got to go.

726
00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:09.539
And then you cut to Odo and he's got a massive smile on his face.

727
00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:10.799
He's loving it.

728
00:33:13.859 --> 00:33:16.079
And he's, he's a soldier.

729
00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:16.799
Yes, it is.

730
00:33:16.859 --> 00:33:18.900
Commander, this is extortion.

731
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:23.400
And it's really funny because at this point, at this point, he's

732
00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:25.259
not as fierce as he ends up being.

733
00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:28.799
You know, it's a much, much more low-key. on the player

734
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:30.240
performance. notice that in this.

735
00:33:30.299 --> 00:33:33.839
Yeah. compared to like AR 558 and I know they've shown him, you

736
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:37.079
know, on the edge there, but he's still, yeah, yeah, yeah.

737
00:33:37.140 --> 00:33:41.099
But here, like he is kind of underplaying it.

738
00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:45.480
And so the accusation of extortioned when he kind of responds to

739
00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:48.539
it in this sort of, hmm, yeah, it kind of is. you know, like

740
00:33:48.539 --> 00:33:49.799
there's no steel there.

741
00:33:49.859 --> 00:33:51.839
It's actually really quite funny.

742
00:33:52.380 --> 00:33:56.640
Do you remember the bit later on where Odo says I saw I saw him

743
00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:58.859
down the corridor checking out the weapons.

744
00:33:58.920 --> 00:34:01.619
He was going, I was just taking a walk to stretch my legs.

745
00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:03.660
You know, like, that's right.

746
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:04.740
So good.

747
00:34:05.339 --> 00:34:11.460
It's these sort of dynamics that I really rate DS94 because there

748
00:34:11.460 --> 00:34:12.840
are so many interesting characters.

749
00:34:12.900 --> 00:34:14.760
There are so many interesting pairings.

750
00:34:14.820 --> 00:34:17.400
And, you know, when they get it right.

751
00:34:17.460 --> 00:34:18.480
It just sings.

752
00:34:18.539 --> 00:34:20.460
Yeah, it's really good, isn't it?

753
00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:24.599
And there's a lot happening, like having an A and a B plot here

754
00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:28.199
too, because you can imagine a version of this that just focusses

755
00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:29.280
on Kira, right?

756
00:34:29.340 --> 00:34:31.619
And the whole thing is about Kira, but...

757
00:34:31.619 --> 00:34:33.420
Well, that's the face of the enemy, isn't it?

758
00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:36.420
You don't come back away from that Romulan ship, I think, for half

759
00:34:36.420 --> 00:34:36.960
the episode.

760
00:34:37.019 --> 00:34:38.460
Yes, we don't.

761
00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:39.480
Yes, exactly right.

762
00:34:39.539 --> 00:34:42.599
And they're kind of surprised, aren't they?

763
00:34:42.659 --> 00:34:47.699
When, when, when Deanna appears on the screen or something, like

764
00:34:47.699 --> 00:34:49.739
oh, it's brilliant.

765
00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:52.139
Yeah, I know exactly that it's her.

766
00:34:52.139 --> 00:34:57.179
Whereas here, having an A and a B plot and having a plot on Garak

767
00:34:57.179 --> 00:35:00.719
and doing the thing where the A and B plot are actually related to

768
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:01.920
one another for a child.

769
00:35:01.980 --> 00:35:03.300
Going in the same direction, are they?

770
00:35:03.420 --> 00:35:03.900
Yeah, yeah.

771
00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:04.559
Yeah, yeah.

772
00:35:04.619 --> 00:35:06.960
It's not just some random comedy plot.

773
00:35:07.019 --> 00:35:08.760
Plus, it's very dramatic.

774
00:35:08.820 --> 00:35:11.159
Kira wants an arboretum or something.

775
00:35:11.460 --> 00:35:14.639
Oh, that was that was that was the one we did, wasn't it?

776
00:35:14.699 --> 00:35:15.719
Yes, it was.

777
00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:17.519
So boring.

778
00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:19.920
You were like, oh, the terrible plot.

779
00:35:19.980 --> 00:35:22.139
Keiko acting appallingly.

780
00:35:22.860 --> 00:35:27.119
Oh, this is great, where she's giving misinformation.

781
00:35:27.420 --> 00:35:29.880
Oh wow, obvious misinformation about the station.

782
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:33.300
But she's not even trying to hide that it's misinformation as

783
00:35:33.300 --> 00:35:33.539
well.

784
00:35:33.659 --> 00:35:37.860
It is just her kind of going, yeah, I'm not really intimidated

785
00:35:37.860 --> 00:35:39.059
here, so fuck off.

786
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:42.179
I'm not even going to pretend to try and convince you with this.

787
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:45.300
I'm going to just tell you the most patent and absurd lies

788
00:35:45.300 --> 00:35:45.719
possible.

789
00:35:45.780 --> 00:35:46.920
It's pretty great.

790
00:35:46.980 --> 00:35:50.099
And somehow, you know, there's just this massive smile after

791
00:35:50.099 --> 00:35:50.519
that.

792
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:54.300
And somehow, even through that hideous Cardassian makeup.

793
00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:56.639
She still has a fabulous smile, you know?

794
00:35:56.760 --> 00:35:57.719
Of course she does.

795
00:35:57.780 --> 00:35:58.619
Just a beautiful smile.

796
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:04.800
Yeah, she's really good.

797
00:36:04.860 --> 00:36:08.159
But you know, in the same breath, I believe NTEC as well.

798
00:36:08.219 --> 00:36:12.900
Like, obviously, he knows that's not Gamorre's daughter, but I

799
00:36:12.900 --> 00:36:14.820
think he's he's doing he's playing it well.

800
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:17.940
He's playing onto that sort of you are my agent.

801
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:21.480
You are my best agent that I sent out, you know, to Bajor.

802
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:23.940
But it's this, isn't it?

803
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:25.679
It's like she looks like she's winning.

804
00:36:25.739 --> 00:36:26.880
She's not going to be broken.

805
00:36:26.940 --> 00:36:29.340
She's just going to tell him lies and whatever.

806
00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:33.840
And then we bring this in, and I actually think this is really

807
00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:38.099
quite shocking, and there's just a couple details.

808
00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:43.079
Well, I remember 1st watching this and I kind of sat upright when

809
00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:44.820
it was like Kira's body.

810
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:46.440
I was like, ooh.

811
00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:50.760
Yeah, so we bring in the cryogenic chamber and she has the long

812
00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:54.420
hair that the guy in dialogue said that she had, you know, you

813
00:36:54.420 --> 00:36:56.159
used to wear it longer and here it is.

814
00:36:56.219 --> 00:37:00.179
And also there's kind of like ice burn.

815
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:07.679
You know, like the face, like the skin on her face is red and do

816
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:08.280
you know what I mean?

817
00:37:08.340 --> 00:37:12.119
Like it, it isn't just, it isn't just Nana lying there looking

818
00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:13.260
lovely in makeup.

819
00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:16.980
It's actually a little bit shocking in a way, you know, like it's

820
00:37:16.980 --> 00:37:19.440
still, it's not going to be gory or anything because it's steep

821
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:20.400
safe sign, but it is.

822
00:37:20.579 --> 00:37:22.980
Is it a dummy?

823
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:24.239
No, no, it's her.

824
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:27.179
The 2 of them in that shop together really well.

825
00:37:27.659 --> 00:37:31.500
They're not, you know, it's not super demanding.

826
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:33.780
I think no one's walking around anyone else or anything.

827
00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:34.800
I don't know.

828
00:37:34.860 --> 00:37:37.980
We have established sometimes those shots can be pretty agonising

829
00:37:37.980 --> 00:37:38.760
when they try.

830
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:41.820
Super imposed one person over the same person.

831
00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:43.260
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

832
00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:45.840
But, um, it is only...

833
00:37:46.019 --> 00:37:49.139
She goes, oh, this is a holosuite.

834
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:51.900
For all I know, this whole thing is, because that's what I was

835
00:37:51.900 --> 00:37:54.360
thinking all along, but they were, and they actually, they do pull

836
00:37:54.360 --> 00:37:59.519
that off later on in Inquisition when Bashir is being tested by

837
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:02.940
Section 31, and then you don't find out till right at the end of

838
00:38:02.940 --> 00:38:06.780
the episode, the whole episode from the start has been a massively

839
00:38:06.780 --> 00:38:07.199
called.

840
00:38:07.260 --> 00:38:08.460
Yeah.

841
00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:14.039
It's a sort of lower decks thing. computer end program, you know

842
00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:18.539
like when Mariner keeps saying that when Boyne was talking about

843
00:38:18.539 --> 00:38:19.739
his girlfriend.

844
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:21.960
Oh, yeah.

845
00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:26.400
You can count on them to play it for long.

846
00:38:26.460 --> 00:38:27.059
Yeah, yeah.

847
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:32.039
Oh, and then, yeah, I see, I liked all this style, because, well

848
00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:35.039
you know, why would I go to all these lengths to try and convince

849
00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:35.340
you?

850
00:38:35.460 --> 00:38:37.320
you know, like, what am I going to get out of this?

851
00:38:37.380 --> 00:38:39.960
If it's information I wanted, I would have tortured you by now, you

852
00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:40.139
know?

853
00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:40.739
Yes.

854
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:44.760
Yeah, so we this very convincingly presented.

855
00:38:44.820 --> 00:38:46.199
Yeah.

856
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:48.780
And that's, I mean, that's kind of the point, isn't it?

857
00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:52.500
Because she looks like she's going to win and then we get the

858
00:38:52.500 --> 00:38:55.920
death thing and then his reaction as well, him saying, no, this

859
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:58.800
isn't about getting information out of you, which is absolutely

860
00:38:58.800 --> 00:38:59.460
true.

861
00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:01.739
We discover it's not about that at all.

862
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:08.760
And so I think, like, I don't think we ever think, oh, look at

863
00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:12.059
that terrible, terrible sky outside.

864
00:39:13.860 --> 00:39:16.800
Back to TNG series one again.

865
00:39:16.800 --> 00:39:18.840
Yeah, it's just a metre away from her.

866
00:39:19.380 --> 00:39:23.519
But I love the way, come on, just comes in and goes, oh, you

867
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:27.179
tripped a silent alarm, but off you go, you know, like, like, it's

868
00:39:27.179 --> 00:39:28.079
not even going to try and stop her.

869
00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:29.519
No, that's right.

870
00:39:29.579 --> 00:39:32.460
Because he, he is, yeah.

871
00:39:32.579 --> 00:39:34.320
He loves it.

872
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:34.860
He was really good.

873
00:39:34.920 --> 00:39:36.599
He does love her and he, yeah.

874
00:39:36.659 --> 00:39:37.199
Yeah.

875
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:43.260
Which is why the moment that really got me in this that I found

876
00:39:43.260 --> 00:39:48.599
quite moving was when she's resistant of him all the way through

877
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:52.619
then she has that moment of, oh, shit, am I a Cardassian?

878
00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:53.820
smashes the mirror.

879
00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:56.400
And then he says, look, I'm a selfish old man.

880
00:39:56.460 --> 00:39:58.619
I'm going have to get you out of here because they are going to

881
00:39:58.619 --> 00:39:59.159
break you.

882
00:39:59.219 --> 00:40:02.699
And then she chooses that moment to start hugging his legs.

883
00:40:02.820 --> 00:40:06.059
And she like, she grabs hold of his legs and just really holds on

884
00:40:06.059 --> 00:40:06.420
to him.

885
00:40:06.420 --> 00:40:08.099
And I thought, oh, this is lovely.

886
00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:09.360
This is...

887
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:10.739
It's really good.

888
00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:14.760
And just presenting him as a good man as well.

889
00:40:14.820 --> 00:40:17.699
Like, initially we think he's part of the deception.

890
00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:21.300
And at this point, we have no way of knowing that he isn't.

891
00:40:22.619 --> 00:40:25.320
Yeah, now we get the recording, right?

892
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:29.159
I think this is what happens when, you know, you and I have said

893
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:31.920
that, you know, they Star Trek can be known to bring in, you know

894
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:35.159
murder she wrote extra of the week to play the latest villain or

895
00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:35.460
whatever.

896
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:38.460
You know, these dreadful sort of day players.

897
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:41.219
This is what happens when you bring in really thoughtful actors.

898
00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:44.400
I'm not saying this is Shakespeare or anything like that.

899
00:40:44.460 --> 00:40:47.579
No, they're thinking about their relationship and they're

900
00:40:47.579 --> 00:40:50.039
delivering that to the audience and it's just a little bit more

901
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:53.880
sophisticated than your standard, you know, Star Trek plot of the

902
00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:54.059
week.

903
00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:55.380
Yeah, yeah.

904
00:40:55.980 --> 00:40:57.480
Yes.

905
00:40:57.539 --> 00:40:59.219
Oh, I liked how she played this as well.

906
00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:02.280
How she played this was a sort of higher register to her voice.

907
00:41:02.340 --> 00:41:02.820
Yeah.

908
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:05.400
And a sort of childish, a younger woman.

909
00:41:05.460 --> 00:41:06.599
Exactly.

910
00:41:06.659 --> 00:41:10.739
Because, I mean, presumably it's been a decade or something like

911
00:41:10.739 --> 00:41:13.739
how, you know, it's been a while.

912
00:41:13.860 --> 00:41:15.480
I'm not sure it works like this, you know.

913
00:41:15.539 --> 00:41:17.699
I mean, they might have, I know people that look like each other

914
00:41:17.699 --> 00:41:19.679
but they don't sound like each other as well, you know.

915
00:41:20.460 --> 00:41:24.900
Yeah, no, it kind of like once we're making people up to be

916
00:41:24.900 --> 00:41:28.440
Cardassians, all bets are off, you know, the normal rules of

917
00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:29.159
things don't apply.

918
00:41:29.219 --> 00:41:34.500
And again, that's a deep fake and we're all thinking it, right?

919
00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:36.659
So we're thinking actually that's fake.

920
00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:40.199
Um, you know, Or is it?

921
00:41:40.260 --> 00:41:41.039
Is it fake?

922
00:41:41.099 --> 00:41:44.519
Well, so what do you think that actually breaks her in the end

923
00:41:44.519 --> 00:41:44.880
then?

924
00:41:44.940 --> 00:41:46.500
Like, or make that?

925
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:48.360
I think it's the body genuinely.

926
00:41:48.420 --> 00:41:49.739
I think it's the body.

927
00:41:49.800 --> 00:41:52.440
I think it's NTEC saying we're not interested in getting

928
00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:56.579
information out of you, we would have already had we just

929
00:41:56.579 --> 00:42:00.179
kidnapped you to kind of my, we, we would have just tortured you

930
00:42:00.179 --> 00:42:00.900
and we knew that.

931
00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:02.940
That's what happens to Picard.

932
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:05.460
We would have just tortured you for information and we'd have it

933
00:42:05.460 --> 00:42:05.820
already.

934
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:12.480
So the body that and the, and the video, but now I'm, I'm, what is

935
00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:13.559
the video meant to be real?

936
00:42:14.519 --> 00:42:16.260
Yeah, I think so.

937
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:17.760
You were assuming it was.

938
00:42:18.780 --> 00:42:23.340
It wasn't just a deep fake made, which is...

939
00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:29.460
Yeah, so that's, yeah, so that's where it falls to beards. really

940
00:42:29.460 --> 00:42:31.380
like it is just, yeah, okay, right.

941
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:33.360
Like what, what's that?

942
00:42:33.780 --> 00:42:39.840
I'm wondering if it's like just gamore's very genuine kindness as

943
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:41.940
well. sort of breaks her in the end.

944
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:45.239
I can't find a chink in his armour.

945
00:42:45.300 --> 00:42:47.940
I can't see you out. because there isn't one because he genuinely

946
00:42:47.940 --> 00:42:50.519
believes that. she's Iliana.

947
00:42:50.579 --> 00:42:52.860
And so there's that as well.

948
00:42:53.340 --> 00:42:56.159
Yeah, what's the inside incident, though?

949
00:42:56.639 --> 00:42:58.079
Eh?

950
00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:00.000
Oh, we'll get there.

951
00:43:00.059 --> 00:43:00.659
We'll see.

952
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:02.820
But it's just what's the moment where she breaks.

953
00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:04.800
Like when does she go and take the mirror?

954
00:43:04.860 --> 00:43:07.860
Oh, I think it might be in the next day. in the next scene?

955
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:09.659
Yeah, but I can't remember.

956
00:43:09.719 --> 00:43:10.860
I love this scene, no problem.

957
00:43:10.860 --> 00:43:12.420
Garrett stepping in.

958
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:14.519
Commander, I can get us out of this.

959
00:43:14.579 --> 00:43:15.179
Yes.

960
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:19.380
And it's so unexpected and he rattles off a code that he just

961
00:43:19.380 --> 00:43:22.079
knows and he gets a completely right.

962
00:43:22.139 --> 00:43:23.639
So good.

963
00:43:23.699 --> 00:43:25.019
It was wonderful.

964
00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:29.280
The sort of inoffensive nature of being a tailor, you know?

965
00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:34.260
And then, well, this is my favourite.

966
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:38.280
Yeah, my favourite favourite line of the episode and I think it's

967
00:43:38.280 --> 00:43:42.420
his best line delivery because I think anyone can kind of mug and

968
00:43:42.420 --> 00:43:45.539
chew the scenery and smile and deliver things in a sort of camp

969
00:43:45.539 --> 00:43:46.619
way.

970
00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:51.960
You know, um, but the way he delivers the line about how he just

971
00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:56.219
picked up that clearance verification code uh, while he was

972
00:43:56.219 --> 00:44:01.440
hemming someone's trousers and like he sort of, he slightly throws

973
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:03.960
it away and it's so funny.

974
00:44:04.019 --> 00:44:09.360
Like, and like, it's the funny thing about it is he's lying.

975
00:44:09.420 --> 00:44:13.800
He doesn't expect anyone in the room to believe what he say.

976
00:44:13.860 --> 00:44:17.519
He's just kind of reflexively like because it's funny.

977
00:44:17.579 --> 00:44:19.440
It's just great.

978
00:44:19.500 --> 00:44:22.139
But he does that like silly smile.

979
00:44:24.119 --> 00:44:26.400
So everything's going to laugh.

980
00:44:26.460 --> 00:44:27.780
But you know what's funny?

981
00:44:27.780 --> 00:44:30.000
is then they play up to this in Way of the Warriors.

982
00:44:30.059 --> 00:44:31.619
Do you remember they're like, oh, we need to get some information

983
00:44:31.619 --> 00:44:33.300
to the company. yeah, yeah, yeah.

984
00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:35.340
And so they discuss it...

985
00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:37.739
I need to be measured.

986
00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:38.460
Yeah.

987
00:44:38.519 --> 00:44:41.820
But again, that's another thing where Mr. Garak knows full well

988
00:44:41.820 --> 00:44:43.199
what they're trying to do.

989
00:44:43.260 --> 00:44:47.880
They're not trying to trick Garak into telling someone something.

990
00:44:47.940 --> 00:44:49.500
Yeah, so this is it.

991
00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:54.119
There is a lot of unspoken stuff in this show, which I really like

992
00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:54.480
like that.

993
00:44:57.539 --> 00:44:59.039
Yeah, so what's happening?

994
00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:01.320
That cabaret is right in her face, isn't it?

995
00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:02.579
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

996
00:45:02.699 --> 00:45:05.460
And I don't think she's afraid of it at all.

997
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:06.599
No.

998
00:45:06.659 --> 00:45:09.000
No, she really goes for it in this.

999
00:45:09.059 --> 00:45:12.599
And, you know, like, she's someone wearing a lot of very silly

1000
00:45:12.599 --> 00:45:16.079
looking latex and she just kind of goes, no, fuck it.

1001
00:45:16.139 --> 00:45:19.619
You know, this is, this is sort of melodrama.

1002
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:24.900
This is, you know, we're going with the kind of emotional thing

1003
00:45:24.900 --> 00:45:29.760
here and it really works and they're milking it because they've

1004
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:30.480
done it before.

1005
00:45:30.539 --> 00:45:31.800
They're just coming back to this.

1006
00:45:31.860 --> 00:45:34.440
She's incredibly good at this stuff.

1007
00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:36.840
And so they just keep getting it to do it.

1008
00:45:37.380 --> 00:45:42.179
In the ties of blood and water, when Gamor comes back, yeah.

1009
00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:42.900
Right.

1010
00:45:42.900 --> 00:45:45.780
After he dies.

1011
00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:49.739
There's a scene in the infirmary, where the camera's quite far

1012
00:45:49.739 --> 00:45:54.840
back in the set, and it just slowly goes in on Nana visitor while

1013
00:45:54.840 --> 00:45:58.139
she tells the story of watching her own dad die.

1014
00:45:58.199 --> 00:45:59.280
Right.

1015
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:03.360
And it goes on for about 3 minutes and she's genuinely crying.

1016
00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:08.699
And it's like this 3 minute monologue that she has with a camera

1017
00:46:08.699 --> 00:46:10.380
just it's Avery Brooks directing it.

1018
00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:11.699
He directed really, really well.

1019
00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:14.820
And it's just like, she's so good at this stuff.

1020
00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:18.420
She's so good. and countering emotion and making you feel.

1021
00:46:19.559 --> 00:46:22.019
Yeah, she's seriously good.

1022
00:46:22.860 --> 00:46:24.659
Here we go now.

1023
00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:25.440
Smashing up.

1024
00:46:25.500 --> 00:46:28.320
They do what I think about mirrors in DS9, yeah. when DeMar

1025
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:30.420
realises he's got to do something about the Dominion?

1026
00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:35.039
And he looks at himself in the mirror and he throws the canar at

1027
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:36.900
it and looks at his distorted face.

1028
00:46:36.960 --> 00:46:37.440
Yeah.

1029
00:46:37.500 --> 00:46:38.159
Yeah.

1030
00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:42.360
But I mean, this is because it's about identity and because it's

1031
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:46.199
her rejecting who she appears to be, you know, reacting badly

1032
00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:49.139
because I think this is the point where she thinks that's her.

1033
00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:52.380
Like she's looking at herself in the mirror and she hates it.

1034
00:46:52.440 --> 00:46:54.960
Like, I think that that's, isn't that what that means?

1035
00:46:55.019 --> 00:46:57.539
Like, that's why she's punching the mirror with the image of

1036
00:46:57.539 --> 00:46:58.800
Cardassian her there?

1037
00:46:58.800 --> 00:47:01.260
Because she thinks that that probably is her.

1038
00:47:01.260 --> 00:47:06.420
And...

1039
00:47:06.420 --> 00:47:09.599
See, look, here, she's still quite, she's, she's in his lap, but

1040
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:11.880
she won't quite...

1041
00:47:11.940 --> 00:47:14.760
It's when he then says, I'm going to get it. get you out of here.

1042
00:47:14.820 --> 00:47:15.420
And she goes, what?

1043
00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:17.820
And she actually says through tears, like, you do that for me.

1044
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:26.760
Yeah, I think, I think, like, it's, I think making him more

1045
00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:29.880
affectionate with her would have been creepy, you know, because it

1046
00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:31.619
hadn't been invited and stuff like that.

1047
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:38.579
But and I guess he grabs her arm and holds her because she, yeah

1048
00:47:38.579 --> 00:47:40.980
like he goes to put his hand on her head.

1049
00:47:41.039 --> 00:47:42.000
Okay, okay.

1050
00:47:42.059 --> 00:47:43.739
I think that's, I think that's okay.

1051
00:47:43.800 --> 00:47:45.000
And then she's hugging his knee.

1052
00:47:45.059 --> 00:47:45.420
Yeah.

1053
00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:48.659
Yeah. he promptly holds her.

1054
00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:49.260
It's nice.

1055
00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:50.699
And he plays that line.

1056
00:47:50.760 --> 00:47:53.400
He plays that line brilliantly where he goes, you're my daughter

1057
00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:54.000
Iliana.

1058
00:47:54.059 --> 00:47:55.679
There's nothing I wouldn't do for you.

1059
00:47:55.739 --> 00:47:57.659
And he absolutely...

1060
00:47:57.719 --> 00:48:00.119
And even at this point, when I was originally watching it, Gary

1061
00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:01.980
what a bastard if he's tricking her. you know?

1062
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:03.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1063
00:48:03.480 --> 00:48:03.840
Yeah.

1064
00:48:03.900 --> 00:48:05.639
But I didn't think he was.

1065
00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:07.139
Like I just didn't think he was.

1066
00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:10.920
But that didn't mean that I guessed the twist.

1067
00:48:10.980 --> 00:48:13.440
I think you can remember what the twist was. sort of

1068
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:14.460
misdirection.

1069
00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:20.760
This is one of the better Star Trek episodes in terms of leaving

1070
00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:22.380
you off on a red herring, you know?

1071
00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:26.519
Yeah, the only detail that doesn't work is, of course, that she

1072
00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:30.480
looks like Iliana so much like Iliana, that the father would be

1073
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:32.099
fooled by it.

1074
00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:36.059
And the thing I was less convinced about in the 2nd episode

1075
00:48:36.059 --> 00:48:40.559
Entires Blood and Water, is it is portrayed as a father-daughter

1076
00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:41.639
relationship at that point.

1077
00:48:41.699 --> 00:48:45.119
Whereas we've never had, if maybe if he popped up a few times.

1078
00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:48.059
And then he popped up on his deathbed.

1079
00:48:48.119 --> 00:48:49.679
I know.

1080
00:48:49.739 --> 00:48:52.260
I was just like earlier, they've had this one little adventure on

1081
00:48:52.260 --> 00:48:55.800
Cardassia Prime, and now suddenly, you know, he's taken up the

1082
00:48:55.800 --> 00:48:56.820
mantle of being her dad.

1083
00:48:56.880 --> 00:49:00.119
Well, maybe they've communicated or something like they could

1084
00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:01.500
look.

1085
00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:06.719
And so Gamor has a sort of pretty friend, kind of pretty.

1086
00:49:06.780 --> 00:49:09.360
Well, he's pretty for a Kardassian.

1087
00:49:09.420 --> 00:49:11.099
Yeah, they have bad hair, yeah.

1088
00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:13.199
Very, very bad hair.

1089
00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:18.000
What do you imagine they get all those wigs from?

1090
00:49:18.059 --> 00:49:20.400
I know, they're so terrible.

1091
00:49:20.460 --> 00:49:24.119
We need a, you know, half a ton of matted black hair.

1092
00:49:24.900 --> 00:49:25.619
That's right.

1093
00:49:26.340 --> 00:49:29.880
Can I just say, right, with the amount of latex on this?

1094
00:49:29.940 --> 00:49:32.699
Man, those sex must have stunk when they ripped all that off at

1095
00:49:32.699 --> 00:49:33.960
the end of the day, wasn't they?

1096
00:49:34.019 --> 00:49:35.219
Can you imagine?

1097
00:49:35.340 --> 00:49:36.599
It so ridiculous.

1098
00:49:36.659 --> 00:49:40.380
That's the one thing about Deep Space and Iron is, but it's this

1099
00:49:40.380 --> 00:49:44.219
space drama where most people have like massive amounts of latex

1100
00:49:44.219 --> 00:49:45.000
on it.

1101
00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:48.960
And it's like this when they treat it so seriously and you're

1102
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:50.159
going, how do you do this?

1103
00:49:50.219 --> 00:49:54.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's pretty incredible And it's not an original

1104
00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:55.860
trek thing.

1105
00:49:55.920 --> 00:49:59.699
Like, you've got Spoxy ears, but basically aliens aren't just kind

1106
00:49:59.699 --> 00:50:03.599
of Americans with lumps of ridges of latex in various places.

1107
00:50:03.599 --> 00:50:08.579
And it's not really, uh, Kurtzman Trek thing, except being so far

1108
00:50:08.579 --> 00:50:14.460
as we are doing races that were created, you know, in the 90s.

1109
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:20.940
It is just a peculiarly 90s Star Trek way of doing aliens.

1110
00:50:21.000 --> 00:50:22.019
It's so funny.

1111
00:50:22.679 --> 00:50:25.199
Then Enterprise came along and they started sort of pulling back

1112
00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:26.519
from the Lasex, didn't they?

1113
00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:28.260
And suddenly everyone looked really boring.

1114
00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:30.179
Oh, that's right.

1115
00:50:30.659 --> 00:50:31.500
Yeah.

1116
00:50:31.500 --> 00:50:33.719
Yeah, one that you all looked a bit quirky.

1117
00:50:33.780 --> 00:50:36.239
But I do remember I was sitting watching an episode of Deep Space

1118
00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:40.500
9 once and my mum's friend was over and it was an odour of water.

1119
00:50:40.559 --> 00:50:41.820
What do these people ever live?

1120
00:50:43.380 --> 00:50:46.500
She was going, what's wrong with his ears?

1121
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:48.300
What's wrong with his face?

1122
00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:53.039
She's going, is this a drama?

1123
00:50:56.099 --> 00:50:57.659
It's preposterous.

1124
00:50:57.659 --> 00:51:01.380
You see that sort of dramatic close-up then on, yeah, when the guy

1125
00:51:01.380 --> 00:51:01.800
got shot.

1126
00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:03.119
Yeah, yeah.

1127
00:51:03.179 --> 00:51:07.019
I think that was the one the one bit of dynamic camera work in the

1128
00:51:07.019 --> 00:51:07.619
entire episode.

1129
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:11.460
Is this a lady Kardassian in the background?

1130
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:12.900
With the gun?

1131
00:51:12.960 --> 00:51:14.639
What a pleasant woman, Nathan.

1132
00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:22.440
So this is nice, and this is where obviously the 2 plots now come

1133
00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:22.800
together.

1134
00:51:22.860 --> 00:51:26.519
Although, it does make me laugh, but they just sort of walk into

1135
00:51:26.519 --> 00:51:26.880
the room.

1136
00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:32.099
And then they throw the bag, like, who ever throws a bag like that

1137
00:51:32.099 --> 00:51:32.639
into a room?

1138
00:51:32.699 --> 00:51:34.980
It turns out that it's Odo.

1139
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:36.119
That's right.

1140
00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:40.559
Well, he's had lots of bag being experienced, hasn't he?

1141
00:51:40.619 --> 00:51:41.820
We've seen him as a bag before.

1142
00:51:41.880 --> 00:51:46.079
It's kind of a thing Oh, and this is great because now when it can

1143
00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:48.360
get to be massively camp and villainous, you know?

1144
00:51:48.420 --> 00:51:48.840
Yeah.

1145
00:51:49.619 --> 00:51:52.559
The bag is bizarre, isn't it?

1146
00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:55.260
He just throws the bag, Entech kind of looks at it.

1147
00:51:55.320 --> 00:51:58.199
There we get that shitty special effect.

1148
00:51:58.980 --> 00:52:03.420
Look, I used to love his morphing effects until you start going on

1149
00:52:03.420 --> 00:52:04.380
about how terrible they are.

1150
00:52:04.440 --> 00:52:05.820
It is terrible.

1151
00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:07.739
I love the concept though.

1152
00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:09.239
They don't use it enough.

1153
00:52:09.300 --> 00:52:11.039
I do love the concept.

1154
00:52:11.159 --> 00:52:15.719
It is a bit of a crappy high, you know, crappy, high concept

1155
00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:18.960
science fiction thing, which you don't really need.

1156
00:52:19.019 --> 00:52:19.980
This is Star Trek.

1157
00:52:20.039 --> 00:52:21.960
We are here for crappy content.

1158
00:52:22.019 --> 00:52:25.139
Well, except that except that you've got Renee Ovision, why you

1159
00:52:25.139 --> 00:52:26.159
don't actually really need that.

1160
00:52:26.219 --> 00:52:29.280
He doesn't need a concept and then they turn it into something

1161
00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:33.599
super interesting, you know, by inventing... major.

1162
00:52:33.659 --> 00:52:35.699
I've never seen you looking so ravishing.

1163
00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:37.860
I know, that's so great.

1164
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:39.179
Fortunately, he's gay.

1165
00:52:39.780 --> 00:52:43.679
Well, I don't think there's anything she looks glamorous.

1166
00:52:43.860 --> 00:52:46.679
And NTEC have been fucking at some point.

1167
00:52:46.739 --> 00:52:48.780
They're so curious, okay.

1168
00:52:48.840 --> 00:52:50.280
Yeah, yeah.

1169
00:52:51.719 --> 00:52:53.940
He does say a pity.

1170
00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:55.139
I rather liked him.

1171
00:52:55.199 --> 00:52:57.480
You know, it's really great. killed him.

1172
00:52:57.539 --> 00:53:02.880
So they turn around, he pulls a gun just to make it okay.

1173
00:53:02.940 --> 00:53:07.920
And somehow Garak expected it because he turns right around and

1174
00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:09.420
then just disintegrates him.

1175
00:53:09.480 --> 00:53:13.199
You know, like he just assumes that Antex reaching for a gun at

1176
00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:15.960
that and then that line I rather liked him.

1177
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:19.199
But it's still not as good as the hemming some pants line, which I

1178
00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:21.480
just think is absolute comedy gold.

1179
00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:25.320
I think the conclusion that we're drawing here is pretty much

1180
00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:28.619
everything he says is brilliant a lot.

1181
00:53:28.679 --> 00:53:29.460
Yeah, yeah.

1182
00:53:29.519 --> 00:53:32.940
But that, yeah, it's the Hemmingson pants, and then he goes

1183
00:53:32.940 --> 00:53:34.320
straight into his next line.

1184
00:53:34.380 --> 00:53:35.579
Come on, we'd better get out of here.

1185
00:53:35.639 --> 00:53:38.400
He doesn't sort of mug or wait for applause or anything like

1186
00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:38.639
that.

1187
00:53:38.699 --> 00:53:41.159
So that's why I like that line so much.

1188
00:53:41.219 --> 00:53:44.340
Do you remember that sequence scene in Purgatory Shadow, where he

1189
00:53:44.340 --> 00:53:47.159
tries to convince war that he wants to join Starfleet Academy?

1190
00:53:47.340 --> 00:53:51.900
And Worf believes him, but then he realises he's been made a fall

1191
00:53:51.900 --> 00:53:52.260
on.

1192
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:53.579
And Garrett goes.

1193
00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:56.280
He goes, why, why have you done this deception?

1194
00:53:56.340 --> 00:53:59.460
And he goes, because lying is a skill like any other.

1195
00:53:59.519 --> 00:54:02.159
And if you want to maintain to a level of excellence, you have to

1196
00:54:02.159 --> 00:54:03.179
practice constantly.

1197
00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:08.159
But I mean, the thing is that we know that he's lying all the time

1198
00:54:08.159 --> 00:54:09.659
and that's absolutely fine.

1199
00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:12.659
Like, I think that's the hilarious thing about him.

1200
00:54:14.219 --> 00:54:16.739
I thought this was really sweet as well.

1201
00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:21.480
Sometimes I don't really buy these sort of touching goodbyes that

1202
00:54:21.480 --> 00:54:24.059
we have at the end of Star Trek episodes.

1203
00:54:24.119 --> 00:54:28.079
But when she says, you know, the payoff to their relationship here

1204
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:31.260
is, I think your daughter must have loved you very much and then

1205
00:54:31.260 --> 00:54:32.280
he held back the tears.

1206
00:54:32.340 --> 00:54:34.019
It's such one movie.

1207
00:54:34.079 --> 00:54:37.559
It's a really corny fucking line, isn't it?

1208
00:54:37.619 --> 00:54:42.179
It's so corny, but she delivers it so well that I just buy it

1209
00:54:42.179 --> 00:54:43.260
completely.

1210
00:54:43.320 --> 00:54:45.480
It's really his reaction as well.

1211
00:54:45.539 --> 00:54:47.340
Yeah, yeah.

1212
00:54:47.400 --> 00:54:51.840
It's really well played for something that is just as cheesy as

1213
00:54:51.840 --> 00:54:56.099
possible. scared to watch the other episode with you now then.

1214
00:54:56.159 --> 00:54:57.300
Tires of blood and war.

1215
00:54:57.360 --> 00:54:58.500
If you think this is cheesy.

1216
00:54:58.559 --> 00:55:04.260
Well, like, but it's the 2 of them. you know, you just sell it.

1217
00:55:04.380 --> 00:55:07.619
And certainly we've had that scene of them, you know, him

1218
00:55:07.619 --> 00:55:11.880
comforting her when she's distressed, which, you know, you buy, I

1219
00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:12.179
think.

1220
00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:15.059
But you know what really made me laugh?

1221
00:55:15.119 --> 00:55:18.480
I was thinking, I thought, yeah, I watched Star Trek now thinking

1222
00:55:18.480 --> 00:55:20.340
oh no, what's Nathan going to think of this?

1223
00:55:20.400 --> 00:55:22.500
This is how I now watch Star Trek.

1224
00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:26.760
And it was the bit where he's gone off. and she's just holding the

1225
00:55:26.760 --> 00:55:30.659
jewellery and just staring at it off camera with tears in her

1226
00:55:30.659 --> 00:55:30.900
eyes.

1227
00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:32.460
I'm like, who actually does that?

1228
00:55:32.519 --> 00:55:33.420
Who's stands?

1229
00:55:33.480 --> 00:55:34.139
No, it doesn't.

1230
00:55:34.199 --> 00:55:36.599
I've just had a really I thought it was good moment.

1231
00:55:36.659 --> 00:55:37.500
Yeah.

1232
00:55:37.559 --> 00:55:40.079
No, I totally bought it.

1233
00:55:40.139 --> 00:55:40.559
Look at her.

1234
00:55:40.619 --> 00:55:41.519
Look at her, look at her.

1235
00:55:41.579 --> 00:55:43.079
She's so good.

1236
00:55:43.139 --> 00:55:44.639
I would see this.

1237
00:55:44.639 --> 00:55:45.840
I want you to know something.

1238
00:55:48.960 --> 00:55:53.880
But look, she's just absolutely, she knows it's as cheesy as any

1239
00:55:53.880 --> 00:55:54.900
of us do.

1240
00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:58.380
You know, she knows that, but she's really playing it.

1241
00:55:58.380 --> 00:56:01.320
Exactly how it needs to be played.

1242
00:56:01.380 --> 00:56:03.480
She's giving it a bit of sort of proper meaning.

1243
00:56:03.539 --> 00:56:04.019
She's good.

1244
00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:09.300
I just think she's an incredibly savvy actress and beautiful.

1245
00:56:09.360 --> 00:56:10.079
Oh, look.

1246
00:56:10.139 --> 00:56:13.320
And his response is quite good as well, because it's sort of

1247
00:56:13.320 --> 00:56:17.039
understated, and he kind of, he doesn't quite know how to control

1248
00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:18.059
himself under control.

1249
00:56:18.119 --> 00:56:18.780
It's good.

1250
00:56:18.840 --> 00:56:20.760
Like, I think it's just a well played...

1251
00:56:21.719 --> 00:56:23.639
It's a well- played scene, but both of them.

1252
00:56:24.780 --> 00:56:28.079
Do you think, I want to ask you thought coming out of this

1253
00:56:28.079 --> 00:56:28.440
episode?

1254
00:56:28.500 --> 00:56:33.119
Do you think Nanavist is the most accomplished performer on Deep

1255
00:56:33.119 --> 00:56:33.840
Space 9?

1256
00:56:34.260 --> 00:56:36.059
Yeah, I think so.

1257
00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:37.800
Yeah, I would say so.

1258
00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:42.000
I think it's, I think it's a double whammy refer and...

1259
00:56:42.059 --> 00:56:43.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1260
00:56:43.079 --> 00:56:46.980
So it's terrifying talent when they come together, the parent.

1261
00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:47.519
That's right.

1262
00:56:47.579 --> 00:56:49.800
However cross she was about.

1263
00:56:49.980 --> 00:56:50.460
Exactly.

1264
00:56:50.460 --> 00:56:51.480
I don't know though.

1265
00:56:51.539 --> 00:56:53.880
Do you remember that scene in Dramatis Persona, where she goes to

1266
00:56:53.880 --> 00:56:57.420
his office and starts flowing with him, evil Kira.

1267
00:56:57.480 --> 00:56:58.800
We were going, well, what is happening here?

1268
00:56:58.860 --> 00:57:00.300
These 2 fantastic actors.

1269
00:57:01.260 --> 00:57:04.199
This dreadful material.

1270
00:57:06.840 --> 00:57:10.500
They're probably there reading a script in the morning going, we've

1271
00:57:10.500 --> 00:57:11.280
got to sell this, really.

1272
00:57:11.340 --> 00:57:12.360
How we do this?

1273
00:57:12.780 --> 00:57:14.940
Let's just throw it away.

1274
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:17.219
Something better will be long next week.

1275
00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:19.679
I thought that was really good though.

1276
00:57:19.739 --> 00:57:21.300
Yeah, yeah.

1277
00:57:21.300 --> 00:57:27.659
Proper solid high concept stuff. that does cheat, but it's a

1278
00:57:27.659 --> 00:57:31.860
forgivable cheat, and it does surprise you in a way that's kind of

1279
00:57:31.860 --> 00:57:32.760
satisfying.

1280
00:57:32.820 --> 00:57:34.679
And it has some good performances.

1281
00:57:34.739 --> 00:57:38.699
It's got some funny lines and it's very...

1282
00:57:38.760 --> 00:57:39.960
Yeah, yeah.

1283
00:57:40.019 --> 00:57:41.460
That is important later on as well.

1284
00:57:41.519 --> 00:57:43.320
Yeah, it is achieving a lot.

1285
00:57:43.380 --> 00:57:44.400
Do you know what?

1286
00:57:44.460 --> 00:57:50.699
I've kind of, I'm coming to the conclusion that the standalone

1287
00:57:50.699 --> 00:57:53.639
episodes in series one to four.

1288
00:57:53.699 --> 00:57:56.280
That's where the standalones were at their best.

1289
00:57:56.280 --> 00:58:00.960
And the sort of the arc stuff is what really worked for me in the

1290
00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:01.679
latter.

1291
00:58:01.739 --> 00:58:08.039
So I think things like blood oath, duet, things like the wire, you

1292
00:58:08.039 --> 00:58:11.219
know, those sort of intimate character stories that was doing a

1293
00:58:11.219 --> 00:58:12.840
lot of sort of the building blocks.

1294
00:58:12.900 --> 00:58:16.860
So the art stuff was satisfying later on that those characters

1295
00:58:16.860 --> 00:58:18.300
were all established.

1296
00:58:18.360 --> 00:58:21.239
And I've said this to you before, like, uh, the stories are almost

1297
00:58:21.239 --> 00:58:23.639
sort of self-perpetuating because the characters are so strong.

1298
00:58:23.699 --> 00:58:28.320
All you need to do is bring in a concept and they can react to it

1299
00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:30.599
because we've established them and we know them so well.

1300
00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:34.440
And this is just a really, really good example of that.

1301
00:58:34.500 --> 00:58:35.219
Yeah.

1302
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:39.960
Just, but it's like solidly well done deep space nine.

1303
00:58:40.019 --> 00:58:43.860
Like it's, it's, even though it kind of borrows the high concept

1304
00:58:43.860 --> 00:58:45.840
from face of the enemy.

1305
00:58:45.900 --> 00:58:52.860
It does it in a completely deep space 9 kind of way, and it just

1306
00:58:52.860 --> 00:59:00.539
reminds me what I like about this show, and it is that it's set in

1307
00:59:00.539 --> 00:59:05.639
a place in a way that other Star Trek's hadn't been up until this

1308
00:59:05.639 --> 00:59:06.000
point.

1309
00:59:06.059 --> 00:59:08.940
And it's a place that's sort of detailed.

1310
00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:12.360
It's a, you know, cheesy Star Trek place and all of that, but it's

1311
00:59:12.360 --> 00:59:13.739
Star Trek and that's what we want.

1312
00:59:13.800 --> 00:59:17.400
And it just means there are things, there's a background against

1313
00:59:17.400 --> 00:59:20.639
which to do things in a context in which this stuff makes sense.

1314
00:59:20.699 --> 00:59:25.860
And I just think it's terribly entertaining and accomplished and

1315
00:59:25.860 --> 00:59:29.159
there's some good performances that are much better than they need

1316
00:59:29.159 --> 00:59:29.579
to be.

1317
00:59:29.639 --> 00:59:34.679
I, you know, it's, uh, it's exactly what I watch Star Trek 4.

1318
00:59:34.920 --> 00:59:35.219
I think.

1319
00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:42.300
I think the approaches of TNG and DS9 to this same concept is

1320
00:59:42.300 --> 00:59:45.780
highlighted in something you said in the last episode actually, and

1321
00:59:45.780 --> 00:59:50.159
that is how they very rarely dive halfway through the story.

1322
00:59:50.159 --> 00:59:52.079
Usually we establish everything.

1323
00:59:52.139 --> 00:59:54.300
Well, actually, basically, the enemy does do that.

1324
00:59:54.360 --> 00:59:59.039
It opens up and she's already been turned into a Romulum and

1325
00:59:59.039 --> 01:00:01.440
that's the very 1st scene of her looking in the mirror.

1326
01:00:01.500 --> 01:00:04.860
And it kind of means the concept is the important thing in that

1327
01:00:04.860 --> 01:00:05.159
episode.

1328
01:00:05.219 --> 01:00:05.940
Yes.

1329
01:00:05.940 --> 01:00:07.739
That's what that episode is sold on.

1330
01:00:07.800 --> 01:00:11.340
It's just the idea that Troy is a Romulan and she's a fish out of

1331
01:00:11.340 --> 01:00:13.019
water and she's got to cope with it.

1332
01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:16.920
Whereas this has like a ton of establishing stuff before we get to

1333
01:00:16.920 --> 01:00:17.460
that moment.

1334
01:00:17.519 --> 01:00:21.179
But it's doing a lot of work that pays off at the end of the

1335
01:00:21.179 --> 01:00:21.539
episode.

1336
01:00:21.599 --> 01:00:24.059
So it's kind of a bit more...

1337
01:00:24.119 --> 01:00:26.280
I keep saying the word sophisticated, maybe that's too strong.

1338
01:00:26.340 --> 01:00:27.480
It's a bit more.

1339
01:00:27.480 --> 01:00:28.260
No, no, I think it is.

1340
01:00:28.320 --> 01:00:30.119
Yeah, I think it's more sophisticated.

1341
01:00:30.179 --> 01:00:34.320
I mean, in a sense the person wakes up as a member of a different

1342
01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:38.280
alien species is a concept that we've already had.

1343
01:00:38.340 --> 01:00:42.840
So they're deploying it again, but they're deploying it in a

1344
01:00:42.840 --> 01:00:46.739
different context in order to do much different things with, I

1345
01:00:46.739 --> 01:00:46.980
think.

1346
01:00:47.159 --> 01:00:49.500
Yeah, I really liked it.

1347
01:00:49.980 --> 01:00:54.719
Well, I'm glad we managed to redeem Deep Space 9 for you this

1348
01:00:54.719 --> 01:00:56.639
episode. mission accomplished.

1349
01:01:02.699 --> 01:01:05.820
All right, it's that time of the episode and we are going to

1350
01:01:05.820 --> 01:01:08.099
choose what we're going to watch next time.

1351
01:01:08.159 --> 01:01:14.039
I chose last time, so it's your turn now, Joe. What series are we

1352
01:01:14.039 --> 01:01:15.000
going to choose from?

1353
01:01:15.059 --> 01:01:19.739
Uh, the original series. and that's I'm putting in there.

1354
01:01:19.800 --> 01:01:20.699
Excellent.

1355
01:01:20.699 --> 01:01:25.860
If there's one thing I like talking about even more than DS9, which

1356
01:01:25.860 --> 01:01:29.820
I never thought I'd say, is the original series on untitled Star

1357
01:01:29.820 --> 01:01:30.480
Trek Project.

1358
01:01:30.539 --> 01:01:30.900
Oh, okay.

1359
01:01:30.900 --> 01:01:33.179
We just, we always have a blast when we talk.

1360
01:01:33.239 --> 01:01:33.900
That's true.

1361
01:01:33.960 --> 01:01:34.800
That's true.

1362
01:01:34.860 --> 01:01:36.000
We have had some good ones though.

1363
01:01:36.059 --> 01:01:37.980
If it's fantastic.

1364
01:01:38.039 --> 01:01:41.219
They're genuinely the best and it's terrible.

1365
01:01:41.280 --> 01:01:42.719
It's the best talk about.

1366
01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:46.079
We've only done one terrible one, haven't we?

1367
01:01:46.139 --> 01:01:47.760
Have we only done the one terrible one?

1368
01:01:47.820 --> 01:01:48.539
Spock Spray?

1369
01:01:48.599 --> 01:01:50.639
I mean, you thought Sposs Brain was terrible.

1370
01:01:50.699 --> 01:01:52.500
I thought it was massively enjoyable.

1371
01:01:52.559 --> 01:01:53.699
I mean, yeah.

1372
01:01:53.760 --> 01:01:54.480
Terrible.

1373
01:01:54.539 --> 01:01:58.139
Not as enjoyable as sub-rosa, but yeah, no, that's true.

1374
01:01:58.199 --> 01:02:00.659
Okay, well, look, I'm gonna, I'm gonna press the button.

1375
01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:01.860
Mm-hmm.

1376
01:02:02.340 --> 01:02:06.059
Oh, oh, it might be the 1st time again.

1377
01:02:07.500 --> 01:02:11.280
Season two, episode 15.

1378
01:02:12.900 --> 01:02:15.300
The trouble with Tribbles.

1379
01:02:15.360 --> 01:02:16.800
Oh my god, yes.

1380
01:02:16.860 --> 01:02:17.159
Okay.

1381
01:02:17.219 --> 01:02:18.420
Yeah, we have to do that.

1382
01:02:19.380 --> 01:02:21.659
Oh, I'm not sure.

1383
01:02:21.659 --> 01:02:24.239
I can actually bring myself to press the bat again, and I always

1384
01:02:24.239 --> 01:02:25.320
press the bat.

1385
01:02:25.380 --> 01:02:26.460
No, we just have to do that.

1386
01:02:26.519 --> 01:02:30.059
But I'm going to give you homework as well because I want you to

1387
01:02:30.059 --> 01:02:31.260
watch...

1388
01:02:31.320 --> 01:02:34.559
I want you to watch the Trouble with Edward as well, which is from

1389
01:02:34.559 --> 01:02:35.760
short tracks.

1390
01:02:35.820 --> 01:02:42.300
And it's an episode that stars John Benjamin from Archer and Bob's

1391
01:02:42.300 --> 01:02:46.800
Burgers, as a science officer on board a science ship, and it also

1392
01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:50.219
involves tribbles, and it gives us a bit of backstory because it's

1393
01:02:50.219 --> 01:02:52.980
set 10 years before Trouble with Tribbles.

1394
01:02:53.039 --> 01:02:54.840
So I'm going to get you to watch that.

1395
01:02:54.900 --> 01:02:57.059
Well, then I'm going to give you some homework as well.

1396
01:02:57.179 --> 01:02:57.719
Okay.

1397
01:02:57.780 --> 01:02:58.139
Yeah.

1398
01:02:58.199 --> 01:02:59.159
That's fair.

1399
01:02:59.219 --> 01:03:02.099
And I'm going to ask you to watch Trolls and Tribulations.

1400
01:03:02.159 --> 01:03:03.900
Oh I will do that happily.

1401
01:03:03.960 --> 01:03:06.179
That's one of the...

1402
01:03:06.179 --> 01:03:06.599
Yeah.

1403
01:03:06.599 --> 01:03:08.460
A big triple a form.

1404
01:03:08.579 --> 01:03:09.239
Exactly.

1405
01:03:09.300 --> 01:03:13.679
I adore trials and tribulations and that's perhaps the one episode

1406
01:03:13.679 --> 01:03:16.079
of Deep Space 9 that I've watched more than any other.

1407
01:03:16.139 --> 01:03:18.239
I just think it's really trivic.

1408
01:03:18.300 --> 01:03:20.880
I think that's the same about everybody, isn't it?

1409
01:03:20.940 --> 01:03:21.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1410
01:03:22.019 --> 01:03:22.559
Yeah, yeah.

1411
01:03:22.619 --> 01:03:25.980
The last thing I want is a call from temporal investigations when

1412
01:03:25.980 --> 01:03:26.460
I get back.

1413
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:28.559
So great.

1414
01:03:28.619 --> 01:03:32.460
Is there an animated series episode that has tribles in it?

1415
01:03:32.519 --> 01:03:33.360
Oh, there is.

1416
01:03:33.420 --> 01:03:34.559
I might watch that too.

1417
01:03:34.619 --> 01:03:36.360
Oh, should we just do all four?

1418
01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:37.500
Yeah.

1419
01:03:37.559 --> 01:03:39.420
I might do a triple triple day off.

1420
01:03:39.480 --> 01:03:43.139
Yeah, I think I think I'll watch the animated series one.

1421
01:03:43.199 --> 01:03:45.059
I'll watch rewatch all of them.

1422
01:03:45.119 --> 01:03:47.579
The trouble with Edward's about 8 minutes long.

1423
01:03:47.639 --> 01:03:51.480
It's not a big drama and it is really properly funny.

1424
01:03:51.599 --> 01:03:56.219
Like extremely funny in a way that Kurtzman Trek can be.

1425
01:03:56.280 --> 01:04:00.059
Almost willing to bet, you know, the animated series one is going

1426
01:04:00.059 --> 01:04:01.739
to be agonisingly terrible.

1427
01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:03.659
That would be fun.

1428
01:04:03.900 --> 01:04:05.880
So that'll be fun.

1429
01:04:05.940 --> 01:04:09.780
And then, yeah, we'll obviously we'll focus on the trouble tribles

1430
01:04:09.780 --> 01:04:12.480
that we'll be able to play in context of all the others.

1431
01:04:12.539 --> 01:04:16.139
This great triple expanded universe that is formed.

1432
01:04:16.199 --> 01:04:17.219
Exactly.

1433
01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:18.179
I can't wait.

1434
01:04:18.239 --> 01:04:18.780
Let's do it.

1435
01:04:18.840 --> 01:04:20.039
Yeah, brilliant.

1436
01:04:27.780 --> 01:04:31.559
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford

1437
01:04:31.559 --> 01:04:32.639
and Nathan Bottom League.

1438
01:04:32.699 --> 01:04:35.699
We're online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com where you can find

1439
01:04:35.699 --> 01:04:38.460
links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.

1440
01:04:38.519 --> 01:04:41.460
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was

1441
01:04:41.460 --> 01:04:43.019
composed by Cameron Lahan.

1442
01:04:43.079 --> 01:04:46.800
This episode was recorded on the 23rd of November 2022 and

1443
01:04:46.800 --> 01:04:48.300
released on the 2nd of December.

1444
01:04:48.360 --> 01:04:51.900
We'll see you next time for Star Trek, the original series, The

1445
01:04:51.900 --> 01:04:52.860
Trouble with Tribles.

1446
01:05:11.039 --> 01:05:13.619
Let's head somewhere else now, shall we?

1447
01:05:13.980 --> 01:05:16.320
But, yes, let's.

1448
01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:19.320
I'll edit that into something.

1449
01:05:20.460 --> 01:05:22.320
Well, yeah.

1450
01:05:22.380 --> 01:05:25.199
It looks like we're actually having a conversation with back and

1451
01:05:25.199 --> 01:05:25.860
forth factions.

1452
01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:29.400
Okay, I would normally do that out there.

1453
01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:40.199
No, we don't. yeah um Do you know what?

1454
01:05:40.260 --> 01:05:43.920
I listened to the entirety of our endgame episode yesterday.

1455
01:05:43.980 --> 01:05:45.059
Oh, it's fabulous.

1456
01:05:45.119 --> 01:05:46.679
Oh, is it?

1457
01:05:46.679 --> 01:05:50.579
So much to mock. than I am.

1458
01:05:50.820 --> 01:05:53.340
I'm way grosser than you are.

1459
01:05:53.400 --> 01:05:56.280
I'll start off by saying this will not do.

1460
01:05:57.539 --> 01:06:02.280
This will not stand this hard. no further.

1461
01:06:02.340 --> 01:06:04.739
Well, I think this is the best we could have hoped for.

1462
01:06:04.800 --> 01:06:07.679
That's not that's not an argument, is it?

1463
01:06:11.880 --> 01:06:13.679
Okay, hang on.

1464
01:06:13.800 --> 01:06:16.079
Uh, clear all?

1465
01:06:19.199 --> 01:06:20.340
Oh, yeah.

1466
01:06:20.340 --> 01:06:22.199
What time?

1467
01:06:22.199 --> 01:06:22.860
It's nine.

1468
01:06:22.980 --> 01:06:23.639
What time do you start?

1469
01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:28.079
Uh, I don't actually start to 12, so I think what I might do is

1470
01:06:28.079 --> 01:06:30.059
have a, I didn't have a barf at this time.

1471
01:06:30.119 --> 01:06:33.900
I have a quick bath. have an hour, half an hour's nap and then get

1472
01:06:33.900 --> 01:06:34.380
ready and go.

1473
01:06:34.440 --> 01:06:37.500
See, I'm only at 67%.

1474
01:06:37.559 --> 01:06:39.539
So I have to walk for about 40 minutes.

1475
01:06:40.260 --> 01:06:42.840
But I'm listening to a podcast.

1476
01:06:42.960 --> 01:06:46.260
It's nice and cool, but not too cool, sort of dark.

1477
01:06:46.320 --> 01:06:48.960
It'll be quite nice, then I'll water the plates.

1478
01:06:49.019 --> 01:06:49.739
It's about rain.

1479
01:06:50.340 --> 01:06:52.320
Sheet on the window.

1480
01:06:52.380 --> 01:06:52.860
Okay.

1481
01:06:52.920 --> 01:06:53.760
Well, I'm ready.

1482
01:06:53.820 --> 01:06:55.440
Okay. ready.

1483
01:06:56.280 --> 01:06:57.960
All right.

1484
01:06:58.019 --> 01:07:00.539
All right, it's that time of the episode.