WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-06 at 22:52:13

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Hey, Joe. Hi.

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So, we're back, and this week, we are watching an episode of Deep Space Nine, which is a thing that we do, and it is from series 7, and it's called The Siege of AR 558.

3
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I got that number right, didn't I?

4
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You absolutely did get that right.

5
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Yes.

6
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Good.

7
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Excellent.

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And a very cheerful experience it is too.

9
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Yes.

10
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So this is in basically everyone's top 10. that right?

11
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Maybe 20, I think.

12
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Yeah, it ranks.

13
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Yes.

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Yeah.

15
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Yeah.

16
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So I think it's time for me to say that I actually didn't really enjoy it very much.

17
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You contrary bastard.

18
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Well, so, well, it's no take me out to the holosuite.

19
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Let me just say that.

20
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I actually think that there are 2 proper problems with it, and I'm going to say what they are.

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So I think the 1st one is it's an episode that wants to tell us that war is hell, but I think that Deep Space 9 isn't really equipped to do that properly.

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And so we have an episode where some of our regulars start in, like on the lovely set of the Defiant or on the station or whatever, and then they end, you know, on the station.

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And so we basically get a little 30 minute outing where they're at war.

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Excuse me, they come back with one leg less.

25
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Yes, no, that's true, and we will get to that.

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And also I kind of think there's a bit of a weightlessness to it.

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It's still a very PG depiction of war, and so it can't really be that grim.

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There's very little blood.

29
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You know, like the the phaser rifles.

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Do you want to see limbs blowing off?

31
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Well, I think in order to sell.

32
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Well, yes, we do see that.

33
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Oh, we don't.

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It's decorously hidden under a lovely sheet.

35
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That's crankled up, man.

36
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I bet where you see the leg.

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Like, I think, oh, come on.

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Seriously, that's the best we can do.

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So there's a real PG ness to it which just kind of prevents it from really properly landing.

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And I think there are scenes.

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You know, those phaser rifles they have which are clearly made out of kind of balsa wood with sort of vacuum formed plastic on the outside.

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And so they're completely weightless.

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They have no recoil.

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There's nothing really very visceral about it.

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It is still sort of sanitised PG, Star Trek.

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And so I don't think that message really lands properly.

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And then I think that it...

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Half the problem is, is that, you know, really give a shit about any of these people on an AR 55A. We don't know these people.

49
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And frankly, when we hear their backstories, we don't want to know them.

50
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No, we don't get very good characterisation off them either.

51
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And so they're not made fun or funny.

52
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And when you think about stories about war and, you know, I don't know.

53
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I think this has more atmosphere than you think it does.

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I think it is quite oppressive.

55
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It's very dark.

56
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I think it's shot really well on the sound stage.

57
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They're shoving in loads of dry ice.

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I do feel they managed to capture an element of suspense with the Jem'Hadar coming.

59
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Yeah.

60
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So I do, I do think in terms of sort of war is how within the experience of the episode, that is put across.

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But I, thinking about this as I have, because this is, I know you don't like doing this behind the scenes, but this is technically take 2 of this episode, because we had issues with the 1st one, and it's given me a bit of time to think about it.

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I do think that war is hell is actually presented far more effectively in it's only a paper moon in a couple of episodes time, which is dealing with the fallout of this episode of not losing its leg.

63
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But it does so in a sort of bright, colourful episode, which really gets up.

64
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I say personal with Nog.

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The last character you would ever think to go on this journey, dealing with PTSD.

66
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Whereas here, this is just, it's very depressing to watch, isn't it?

67
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Yeah, yeah, I think so.

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And I think I think the other thing that I don't like that much about it is that I don't think it really takes a clear position on war and maybe that's an aesthetic decision.

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Maybe they just wanted to leave those questions for the audience to answer.

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But I think a show that's being broadcast in an American context can't really afford to do that.

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So there's no solid critique of what's going on.

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We don't know whether this thing is worth defending when Cisco gets asked.

73
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He just says.

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We never mentioned it again.

75
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It never gets mentioned again.

76
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I think if this was a pivotal point in a Dominion war and this, what is it, communications array was an essential piece of equipment in, you know, defeating the Dominion, then maybe this was all worth it.

77
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But they actually say at the end of this, isn't it?

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Was this worth it?

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It goes, well, I hope so.

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And at the end of it, you know, when some fresh new star fleet recruits turn up, they're equated to being children and that this experience makes them adults.

81
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The fact that they have been in a battle where they kill other people makes them adults.

82
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And I just think that it teeters pretty precariously on the edge of being inadvertently pro war, inadvertently pro the kind of loyalty that Nog exhibits in favour of the kind of leadership that ban exhibits.

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I just don't think it's critiqued thoroughgoingly enough.

84
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And I think the only proper critique comes from, obviously, quark, which is brilliant, and I think you get some great moments in this.

85
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And there is one scene during the fire at the end, which I do, I think that's a really well choreographed by, and it's kind of violent and chaotic in a way that Star Trek fires aren't usually.

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Normally, you get someone like, you know, ducking over a console, shooting, and then someone else shooting the other side of the room and it's all very safe.

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Whereas this is, it's just a lot of madness going on at once, which I really like.

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They've clearly spent a bit of money on this.

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But we cut to quark, and he just looks out at the fighting and the look on his face says, how the fuck did we come to this?

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Yeah.

91
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And I think the message about war as hell is a little muddied because war is kind of good for this show.

92
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It's taken them into interesting avenues.

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And I think the writers know it.

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The directors know it.

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The actors know it.

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And so they put out this episode where they're trying to say, no, all this terrible hole we've fallen ourselves into at the same time, they're like, this amazing place that the show's in.

97
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It's a bit confusing.

98
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This war that we made up.

99
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You know, there is.

100
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There's this moment, like there's a kind of through arc for Cisco where he is looking at the board, you know, at the beginning of the episode and saying sometimes now they're just names.

101
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There's so many of them, I don't even think about the people behind them.

102
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And then he comes back at the end of the episode and he looks at the board and then he reminds someone, I can't remember, Kira, someone who's there, that these are all real people and we need to remember that.

103
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And of course, they're all made up people, you know, in Star Trek.

104
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They're not real at all.

105
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So yeah, it's all television as you keep reminding that.

106
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Yeah, that is true.

107
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That is true.

108
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With Cisco, though, it's I find that a bit odd as well because he's very unlikeable in this and he's kind of written as a professional and usually there's like a very sensitive angle with Cisco and he's a really nice bloke and yet he's horrible to walk in this and that's never commented on.

109
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Usually when people behave in bad ways in Deep Space 9.

110
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There is someone giving like an opposing opinion, saying, well, you're being an asshole.

111
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Never happens.

112
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I think, you know, Quirk critiques the way that everyone obeys what Ben says and the way Noggin, particular, does and also has a go at Nog for doing that as well, says that, you know, this is crazy and absurd.

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And but then the thing happens at the end where someone comes along to attack nog in the infirmary or whatever, and Quark has to kill him to pick up a gun and kill him, and then he's kind of shocked and horrified.

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As if, you know, he's been taught a valuable lesson that killing people is something that you sometimes have to do and so shut up, you pacifist, you know, it, it, I do like, I do like the fact that the 2 times that court picks up a gun.

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It's only ever, and it's this, and it's in sacramice of angels.

116
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It's only ever to protect his family.

117
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So like a last measure.

118
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That's the only time court will use violence.

119
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Yeah.

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Yeah.

121
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Yeah.

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I just think, I think there's a, it's muddy and...

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It marries me.

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The more I thought about it, the more I grip.

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But I do think sort of scene to scene, this is still a good episode.

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I think it is well directed.

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I think they made a very savvy choice to put like Ezri and Beshit, the non-combat officers down.

128
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So you genuinely fear for their lives.

129
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There are some good set pieces.

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I just, well, the better than usual set pieces.

131
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They'll be fine.

132
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No, no, I mean, fearing for their lives.

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And I think there's a very judicious use of bit fontaneous as well.

134
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So, which goes into it's only a paper moon.

135
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Well, look, we should probably talk about this scene by scene as we do it.

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Let's do that.

137
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All right.

138
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So I am ready to go.

139
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I will count us in. 5, 4, 3, 2, one.

140
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And we're off.

141
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Okay, so this is the best scene of the episode.

142
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I know you're going to say this.

143
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I know that.

144
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Somebody singing, having fun.

145
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It's so good.

146
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And it's it's rom and he's so fantastic.

147
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And he's so sweet that he can't even bear to sing The Lady as a Tramp.

148
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And so he sings that she's a scamp, which I just think is so adorable.

149
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I love the library. where he says, what is it, show business?

150
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It breaks your heart.

151
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It's so great.

152
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And it is this thing where sort of, you know, Rome is secretly competent, but on the surface, he's a bit crap at everything.

153
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You know, his crap at baseball, his crap at singing and all of that sort of thing. failing an audition, you know.

154
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Well, and he's adorable as well. very cute.

155
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I've never actually seen match Max Brotonchick in anything else. other than he's in Sister Act at the beginning.

156
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He's the one that gets shot.

157
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That she sees.

158
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Yeah.

159
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I've not seen him in anything else.

160
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I don't think I've ever seen him out of makeup actually.

161
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That's kind of weird.

162
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He looks kind of the same, you know.

163
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Yeah, well I suppose.

164
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But this is a really, really lovely scene.

165
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Yeah, so this is Julian is coming in to ask him for some recordings to play on the front line and there's some indication here that Vic was in the war or something, you know, he's kind of the age, you know, what year is this?

166
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1961 or 2 or something?

167
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You know, like he's, he's old enough to afford.

168
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I mean, he's not real, but none of them are real, it's all made up.

169
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But, you know, like, so there is something.

170
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And, you know, there's I just sort of forgive Dame Vera Lyn, you know, with the English troops and stuff, like people singing in order to keep the troops going and USO things in the US and stuff like that, you know.

171
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But it does rather like indicate, well, this is going to be a special episode, folks, all right?

172
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Because we're going to need some important music to play over the battle scene at the end.

173
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Yeah.

174
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Yeah, although I didn't, like, I didn't see that coming, I have to say.

175
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So here we are in the wardroom, watching reading the big list of made-up people.

176
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Oh, those contractual appearance here.

177
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Yeah, yeah.

178
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There are people who don't appear, are there?

179
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No.

180
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No, no, curious in the last episode. has a few scenes on the Defiance, so everyone gets their moment.

181
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Yeah, okay.

182
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Everyone gets a go.

183
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Well they have to.

184
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I don't get paid, you know.

185
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Yeah.

186
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I do, okay, I do like the message of these list of names.

187
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They aren't just a list of names.

188
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They are people, they are individuals.

189
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And this episode is trying to drive that point home. by getting us to know people in the war just because it badly fudges their characterisation.

190
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It doesn't quite have the impact that it should have.

191
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No, and I mean, that is the thing that we do and even people who deplore war or are opposed to particular wars.

192
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You know, there is seen to be a sort of valued, like, you know, my school has a big honour board of all of the people who died, who went to the school and died in World War one.

193
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And, you know, from an Australian point of view, World War one is super weird and why were we anywhere near it?

194
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But just taking the time out to remember those kids who did that?

195
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And here it's a little bit kind of borrowed stolen valour, you know, there's no one really in this war and it's all made up.

196
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And, you know, we don't have to remember the people in this war because it didn't occur.

197
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I think they made the point more effectively in the Pale Moonlight when you had Dax and Bashir, looking at the list and Dax saying, oh, I knew that person.

198
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And so you see a reaction from one of our regulars, you know, of somebody they knew.

199
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Yeah, I agree.

200
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You know, I find this a bit strange.

201
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It's like a fact finding mission into combat for quark.

202
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Like, why would the...

203
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I think...

204
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Smoking's been whispering in the negative.

205
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Let's get rid of him.

206
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We're going to make Rom the Grand Vegas anyway.

207
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Yeah.

208
00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:34.559
So why do we have a council here?

209
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Um, because Ejri is cute as a button and we don't want us to get hurt.

210
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

211
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I think she's fabulous, you know.

212
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Yeah, I do too.

213
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I think the 31st, 34th rule of acquisition, is it there?

214
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War is good for business, and I think that is actually really pretty good, and it's certainly something that the deep space known writers are aware of at the moment, but it is also true, isn't it?

215
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The, you know, the arms business is huge and it's enormously a wonderful episode with Stephen Burkoff.

216
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Do you remember?

217
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Business as usual, where...

218
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Oh my god, he's brilliant.

219
00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:15.720
He's campus Christmas.

220
00:15:15.779 --> 00:15:19.740
And he, for once, he's playing ball and actually saying the lines as written.

221
00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:25.080
And Quark is supplying weapons to both sides of this conflict.

222
00:15:25.259 --> 00:15:32.220
And it's a proper sort of character drama where he realises I really want, you know, the richie as this will bring me.

223
00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:34.500
Ashley, I'm a terrible person for doing this.

224
00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:36.840
Well, I should have brought that up.

225
00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:39.360
I said, well, look, remember that time you were supplying weapons to everybody?

226
00:15:39.419 --> 00:15:40.320
Now you're on the other side.

227
00:15:40.379 --> 00:15:41.820
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

228
00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:43.799
This is what the pointy end of the weapons looks like.

229
00:15:44.340 --> 00:15:53.759
And this is this is this whole thing about a family member coming into the workplace. as a nog experience as here with Quork.

230
00:15:53.820 --> 00:15:55.440
And everyone's horrible to him, but.

231
00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:56.460
Yeah, yeah.

232
00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:05.700
It's um, I guess it's setting up a conflict between Quark and um, Ben, is it?

233
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:15.899
Like Ben's all about business and has a job to do and quite feels out of place, but Ben's not going to indulge him and that's kind of how we keep going.

234
00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:29.580
And it's weird though, because I feel like the nog of series one to 3 was sort of savvy and a bit universe wise, and now he's been utterly indoctrinated into the Federation, hasn't he?

235
00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:32.399
And he's saying all the usual cliches.

236
00:16:32.460 --> 00:16:35.039
And I feel like he's a little naive for it.

237
00:16:35.100 --> 00:16:36.840
Yeah, yeah.

238
00:16:36.899 --> 00:16:42.960
And I think that that's probably good and that's probably intentional and you've certainly got quite to call him out for it.

239
00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:50.159
Yeah, when he says, oh, you know, the fellow's got the, the Keproso white tubes around his neck, isn't that amazing?

240
00:16:50.220 --> 00:16:51.720
And Quark's going, are you serious?

241
00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:54.240
super mean.

242
00:16:54.299 --> 00:16:55.980
But God walked in this, you know?

243
00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:57.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

244
00:16:57.779 --> 00:16:58.139
Yeah.

245
00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:00.059
Oh, it would be a much worse episode.

246
00:17:00.179 --> 00:17:05.160
It would be just an entire endorsement of this approach, wouldn't it, of conflicts.

247
00:17:05.220 --> 00:17:09.180
Now, are we going to mention standard cave set number one?

248
00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:13.079
at this point, this is anywhere near as terrible as you're going to say.

249
00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:14.220
Because I think it's well lit.

250
00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:16.859
They've brought what they brought the lights right down.

251
00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:17.880
Yeah.

252
00:17:17.940 --> 00:17:21.660
In fact, I'm trying to watch it on my...

253
00:17:21.660 --> 00:17:25.259
It means when they shoot when you see the bolts and things like that.

254
00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:27.660
It's a shock because it comes out of darkness, you know?

255
00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:43.380
Yeah, I'm trying to watch it on my computer screen and I'm trying to have my screen at a brightness level that doesn't blow my eyes out when I'm looking at you and my notes, which are on a white background, while it's just so you can see what's going on on the fucking screen.

256
00:17:44.940 --> 00:17:48.119
It's very dark.

257
00:17:48.180 --> 00:17:48.900
Very dark.

258
00:17:49.019 --> 00:17:49.740
It's very dark.

259
00:17:49.920 --> 00:18:02.940
I'm trying to find a screenshot for the website and all I've got is, you know, Cisco with a big gun in a black uniform against a black background and it's...

260
00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:06.839
Just the whites of the Oh no, I can't say that.

261
00:18:06.900 --> 00:18:07.680
Can I watch it?

262
00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:08.640
Really?

263
00:18:08.700 --> 00:18:12.180
It's not a, it's very, very dark.

264
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:28.500
And of course, trying to screen cap any of those scenes as well because everything's moving and because there's sparks and movement and dust and stuff, it is very hard to get a clear read on anything, which I think is good, you know.

265
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:33.779
But I do think that the, I'm going to say this one, don't you laugh at me?

266
00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:43.740
Cinematography in this episode, they use sort of oppressive red lighting and the array is really well lit as well.

267
00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:45.960
And I just felt, what?

268
00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:51.660
I think the array looks like an absolute Star Trek chocolate box.

269
00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:53.339
It's like so ridiculous.

270
00:18:53.400 --> 00:19:04.680
It's so clean and kind of like it looks like the station and it's got no reflective surfaces on it and it's sort of, you know, primary coloured lights and all of that sort of thing.

271
00:19:04.740 --> 00:19:20.819
I think it looks very pretty, but I think we've got some point now in 90s track where they are actually thinking about how things look and, you know, they're making an effort to be a little less beige than things were in next generation times.

272
00:19:21.059 --> 00:19:26.400
Oh no, I think I mean, I still think it looks good, but it is kind of slightly cheesy.

273
00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:28.680
So they're being fired on.

274
00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:32.579
They've just landed and they're being fired on by the people who are already here.

275
00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:37.140
We're only going to meet 4 people.

276
00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:38.940
Is that right?

277
00:19:39.059 --> 00:19:43.500
So we've got Vargas, who is the hot guy who is...

278
00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:44.940
I think he's the worst before.

279
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:49.140
I know you're going to say... the one with the backstory is the worst.

280
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:50.940
There's 2 other targets.

281
00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:52.980
I like the commander.

282
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:54.480
I think she's quite.

283
00:19:54.539 --> 00:19:58.200
Yeah, Larkin, if a bit to the point.

284
00:19:58.259 --> 00:20:00.000
And I like Bill Mummy's character as well.

285
00:20:00.059 --> 00:20:01.319
He's very likeable.

286
00:20:01.380 --> 00:20:03.420
But the other two, the 2 blokes.

287
00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:04.259
I'll tell you what.

288
00:20:04.740 --> 00:20:10.859
Yeah, no, this guy, like the, yeah, Vegas, Raymond Cruz, as Vargas.

289
00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:15.720
He is really hilariously bad, but he's kind of hot, so I don't care.

290
00:20:15.779 --> 00:20:22.920
And the other guy, Reese, is pretty hot as well, which is kind of nice, but all I've got to say to you is this.

291
00:20:22.980 --> 00:20:26.339
And I just sat there and I looked at him.

292
00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:29.099
One time in his life, he's quiet.

293
00:20:29.220 --> 00:20:31.079
It's so bad.

294
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:32.759
It's so bad.

295
00:20:32.819 --> 00:20:36.599
So yeah, we don't get any quirks from these people.

296
00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:38.099
We don't get any character beats.

297
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:40.380
They don't really talk about their families.

298
00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:42.240
There's nothing they're missing back home.

299
00:20:42.299 --> 00:20:44.700
They are super anonymous.

300
00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:46.980
And I think it's a shame.

301
00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:49.019
Do you remember that episode?

302
00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:57.720
And and they go off with 4 engineers, young engineers, and you've got the one who collects the insignia, you've got the Bolian, who's a bit nervous.

303
00:20:57.779 --> 00:21:07.859
You've got the woman who's like all military and like, you know, I've got a gun and I'm really impro- but and but they're all, like you say, they're quite quirky and they're memorable for it.

304
00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:10.680
There's not much of that area, is there?

305
00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:12.000
Yeah, look at this.

306
00:21:12.059 --> 00:21:13.019
It's a Christmas box.

307
00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:13.680
Look at it.

308
00:21:13.740 --> 00:21:17.880
It's like that looks like a giant Christmas tree that picks up enemy signals.

309
00:21:17.940 --> 00:21:19.799
It's really hilarious. it?

310
00:21:19.859 --> 00:21:21.119
It is a big set.

311
00:21:21.180 --> 00:21:22.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

312
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:22.500
Yep.

313
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:24.420
I think it's specially constructed.

314
00:21:24.420 --> 00:21:29.759
Or maybe they've just taken the defiant warp core and flung some polystar in rocks in it.

315
00:21:29.819 --> 00:21:31.319
We even find out why they need it.

316
00:21:31.380 --> 00:21:32.400
No.

317
00:21:32.460 --> 00:21:34.440
Yeah, no, yeah.

318
00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:35.339
We hope it's okay.

319
00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:39.000
And I think too, there is something super odd about this, right?

320
00:21:39.059 --> 00:21:40.559
They're stuck there.

321
00:21:40.619 --> 00:21:45.240
There's 150 people and half of them, 2 thirds of them are dead, right?

322
00:21:45.299 --> 00:21:47.819
And they're not getting supplies.

323
00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:49.500
They've not been relieved.

324
00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:53.579
And Cisco doesn't sort of think that that's a huge disaster or anything.

325
00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:55.380
He just says, oh, well, suck it up.

326
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:57.240
Our forces are really thin, you know?

327
00:21:57.299 --> 00:21:58.799
He's going to bugger off in a minute, isn't he?

328
00:21:58.859 --> 00:22:00.720
You go, right, well, see you later, guys, you know.

329
00:22:00.779 --> 00:22:03.720
It's only because the Gemadar attack. no we're going to stay.

330
00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:05.819
Yeah, at least he doesn't do that.

331
00:22:05.880 --> 00:22:10.079
But there is this kind of level of comfort with this situation, which is appalling.

332
00:22:10.140 --> 00:22:24.299
And I guess the reason that we don't get sort of cute comedy quirks is because everyone has suffered such a, you know, incredible disaster, this is not the sort of thing that we hear about in a normal Star Trek episode.

333
00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:33.420
You know, like think about the doomsday machine where poor old Captain Watts's face had to listen to all of his crew get killed.

334
00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:34.019
Oh, Decker.

335
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:34.259
Yeah.

336
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:35.819
Your decker, yeah, yeah.

337
00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:40.619
You know, but apart from that, we don't normally, you know, get this sort of thing.

338
00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:50.039
And so maybe we don't have fun character beats because that make us care about the characters because they're all ground down by what they've been through.

339
00:22:50.099 --> 00:23:00.779
We don't learn, I don't think we learn anything about Bill Mummy's character, but he's such a likeable performance and I think he develops a nice rapport with Ezri.

340
00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:13.559
I think that's the bit that hit in the finale for me, was the bit where he dies and then she shouts out his name and it's, you know, those war film cliches. you know, on the on the battlefield.

341
00:23:13.619 --> 00:23:16.019
But it did strike a chord with me.

342
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:20.279
Do you think we like him more too because he was Will Robinson as well?

343
00:23:20.339 --> 00:23:24.779
You know, like he was a little boy on telly, you know?

344
00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:27.180
And that's Lanier from Babylon 5.

345
00:23:28.619 --> 00:23:31.140
I've never even heard of Babylon.

346
00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:32.519
I don't know what it is.

347
00:23:32.579 --> 00:23:34.500
Well, I would choose you one day.

348
00:23:35.099 --> 00:23:38.579
I think I think he's That's the cartoon spaceship one.

349
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:39.420
That's that.

350
00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:40.019
That's right.

351
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:40.380
Yeah.

352
00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:40.920
Yes.

353
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:41.160
Yeah.

354
00:23:41.220 --> 00:23:43.259
As opposed to the model space station one.

355
00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:47.460
He says cartoon spaceships, but they're good.

356
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:50.220
So what do you think about this whole sequence of court going on about?

357
00:23:50.220 --> 00:23:57.480
The humanity when their bellies are empty, they become as savage and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon?

358
00:23:57.900 --> 00:24:20.759
Yeah, I think that that is a thing that's worth saying in 90s trek, and I'm glad it's not the sort of thing that we say now, but the critique of 90s trek where they're all just sort of cruising around the galaxy and luxury starships that provide them with everything that they could ever want and stuff.

359
00:24:20.819 --> 00:24:22.799
All of that is pretty great.

360
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:29.640
But the reality, I don't know.

361
00:24:29.700 --> 00:24:37.740
I think that the way that this show injects a bit of reality into that Starfleet fantasy is good and good for the time, right?

362
00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:40.259
I do not expect you to say that, you know.

363
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:48.539
Yeah, I think like because the other big speech that Quirk does in the gem Hadar, you know, where he talks about...

364
00:24:48.539 --> 00:24:50.039
When he calls him out being racist.

365
00:24:50.099 --> 00:24:50.579
Yeah.

366
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:51.420
Yeah.

367
00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:55.799
And he says, our history doesn't have the genocides that your history has.

368
00:24:55.859 --> 00:24:58.920
And that's always worth reminding us of.

369
00:24:58.980 --> 00:25:09.420
You know, if we're fairly comfortable, we feel virtuous because we're not doing anything very bad, but put us in a difficult situation and what are we like?

370
00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:12.059
And I think that that's a question worth asking.

371
00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:30.900
But I do like a version of Star Trek that answers that question by saying people get better, like that as a result of, you know, the end of poverty and the end of scarcity and the end of want and the end of racism and all of these things, we become better people.

372
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:42.000
And I think now that's a story that particularly needs to be told, whereas perhaps at this time, it's probably a story that needs puncturing from time to time.

373
00:25:43.140 --> 00:25:45.299
Yeah, and I get that.

374
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:54.660
And I think that, um, the sort of the optimistic approach of Star Trek, and especially they really lean into it in Kurtzman Trek.

375
00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:57.359
Yeah, it's kind of needed now, you know?

376
00:25:57.420 --> 00:26:04.859
And it's kind of unique because most shows are dark and cynical and depressing and, you know, and it's nice to have a show that's waving the flat.

377
00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:06.359
I know what you're going to say about this.

378
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:09.000
Get there in a second.

379
00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:12.720
I've already quoted it, all right?

380
00:26:13.859 --> 00:26:16.500
Don't you touch that bandage.

381
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:18.180
Oh my god.

382
00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:21.359
So this is Vargas losing his shit at being treated by Julian.

383
00:26:21.420 --> 00:26:32.819
He's about to tell us the tragic backstory of whatever this guy was, and it's so cliched and so poorly performed.

384
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:34.319
It's so...

385
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:35.220
You know what, this fella?

386
00:26:35.220 --> 00:26:38.099
This fella was in an episode of the X-Files, right?

387
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:48.900
And it was done as a sort of, yeah, it was this Spanish soap opera episode where he had a bride who was like this golem and he was just as bad in that.

388
00:26:48.900 --> 00:26:55.799
But he's in a church, sort of frustrating and behaving like a dreadful soap opera character.

389
00:26:55.859 --> 00:26:58.500
I mean, I don't mean he's hot, but he ain't great.

390
00:26:58.619 --> 00:26:59.339
Yeah, yeah.

391
00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:01.799
I mean, this is so bad.

392
00:27:01.859 --> 00:27:08.519
This is so, so kind of cheesy and cliche ridden and miserable, you know.

393
00:27:09.900 --> 00:27:12.720
And but she literally goes to Cisco.

394
00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:15.299
I goes, look, these people are ill, all right?

395
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:19.980
I've just had this agonising conversation with this fella around there.

396
00:27:20.039 --> 00:27:20.880
Yeah.

397
00:27:20.940 --> 00:27:21.539
Yeah.

398
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:26.099
Sorry, going back very quickly to the optimism in Star Trek.

399
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:42.960
I think the danger of it is it can be a bit boring sometimes that we're all whiter than white and it can be a bit contradictory because they were bloody arrogant in those early seasons of TNG going around civilising the universe and that's annoying.

400
00:27:43.019 --> 00:27:58.740
And I do think when they lean into the cynicism or they examine the Federation, in latter day, DS9, in episodes like Valiant and things like that, it's really interesting sometimes as well. to sort of pick up the rock and see what's underneath.

401
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:01.980
That's what makes something like section 31 so interesting.

402
00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:03.660
Yeah, yeah.

403
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:12.900
And I'm not a huge fan of Section 31 and when I hear that there's a Section 31 show in development and who knows if it'll ever go anywhere with Michelle Yeoh.

404
00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:13.920
I think it is.

405
00:28:14.460 --> 00:28:16.319
Yeah, they're giving her a list.

406
00:28:16.380 --> 00:28:17.339
Who cares what it's about?

407
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:17.819
You know?

408
00:28:17.819 --> 00:28:18.960
Exactly.

409
00:28:19.140 --> 00:28:28.559
But I just kind of wonder how it works in the context of new track, you know, like how can it work?

410
00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:31.619
I'll say this.

411
00:28:31.619 --> 00:28:33.420
I'm Discovery...

412
00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:34.559
I'm glad they did it.

413
00:28:34.619 --> 00:28:44.700
I'm glad they had the balls to examine it all and to say, you know, what, maybe we're not white or the white all the time. sometimes we have to do what we have to do.

414
00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:53.400
But I'm also pleased that they've gone in the other direction now because, man, man, we're in dark times.

415
00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:57.180
It's quite nice to see people behaving in a wide way, you know?

416
00:28:57.240 --> 00:28:59.700
Well, just in a way that's desperational.

417
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:04.019
Like they're not kind of sickly or milk toast or kind of goody-goody.

418
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:13.319
They're just, they love one another and they are excited by their jobs and, you know, they like doing what they do and they're competent.

419
00:29:13.380 --> 00:29:14.519
I think it's really lovely.

420
00:29:14.579 --> 00:29:15.539
It's really super fun.

421
00:29:15.660 --> 00:29:17.940
But to, in like DS9's defence.

422
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:23.759
I think they balance the dark and the light really well because they do some really fun stuff as well.

423
00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:34.440
But also like, you know, you've seen how bad this can be, this examination when you get to series 3 of enterprise and everyone's behaving in an appalling way.

424
00:29:35.160 --> 00:29:38.160
Just like, let the Zindi wipe them out.

425
00:29:38.220 --> 00:29:38.940
What are they for?

426
00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:40.079
Like, what's the point of them?

427
00:29:40.140 --> 00:29:45.180
On the whole, in DS9, they are cooled out, you know, if they have to be.

428
00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:47.819
Whereas in Enterprise, it's just like, no, that's it.

429
00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:51.059
We've got to stop this weapon, the we'll do whatever we haven't happened.

430
00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:51.839
All bets are off.

431
00:29:51.900 --> 00:29:52.920
We can do whatever we want.

432
00:29:52.980 --> 00:29:54.000
Yeah, yeah.

433
00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:57.180
Well, what's going on?

434
00:29:57.240 --> 00:29:58.799
I've completely lost back of the episode.

435
00:29:58.859 --> 00:30:00.480
I can't even see anything on the screen.

436
00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:02.160
There's some dim shapes.

437
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:06.480
I feel like I'm an old man watching TV right now.

438
00:30:06.539 --> 00:30:08.220
Is that a person?

439
00:30:11.339 --> 00:30:14.099
Oh, is it the Houdini mines?

440
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:22.440
So we did have the dialogue explaining the Houdini minds, which they end up using themselves, which like, wow, you know, that's very shocking.

441
00:30:22.500 --> 00:30:36.779
That was a, that was a deliberate choice because um, Irish even bear says, oh, memory, I thought, uh, we wanted to show that things had gotten so bad that we were using the weapons uh, that they were going to use.

442
00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:41.759
What's interesting is in rocks and shoals in series 6, they do exactly the same thing.

443
00:30:41.819 --> 00:30:42.539
Right.

444
00:30:42.539 --> 00:30:45.119
But they get called out on it.

445
00:30:45.180 --> 00:30:49.619
Um, I can't remember who says it now, but some of, I think it's Dags, they might say it.

446
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:56.880
It was like, oh, you know, half an hour ago we were saying these appalling weapons, you know, and now we're going to use them to get out of this hole.

447
00:30:57.000 --> 00:30:59.519
No one really does that, did they?

448
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:00.299
does that comment on it?

449
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:01.920
No, someone, I think, does comment on it.

450
00:31:01.980 --> 00:31:03.539
There is a line of dialogue about it.

451
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:05.880
Oh no, Ezry does, doesn't she?

452
00:31:05.940 --> 00:31:06.779
does it in this.

453
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:07.619
I'm thinking of.

454
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:08.880
Oh, it's always Dax.

455
00:31:08.940 --> 00:31:11.460
Oh, and so the knife, Jesus Christ.

456
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:15.779
Like, he's fucking, you know, what's he going to do with a knife?

457
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:17.640
He's going to cut their ears off or something.

458
00:31:17.700 --> 00:31:29.339
See, that's the other thing too, is that part of the weightlessness of this comes from the fact that the people are rubber aliens being shot at by laser beams.

459
00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:32.759
And so we never really care that we're killing them.

460
00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:35.819
Like whole heaps of them are being killed right now as we watch.

461
00:31:35.880 --> 00:31:37.440
Ooh, that one went high up in the air.

462
00:31:37.500 --> 00:31:42.059
Well, I'm going to say they're holograms, but you're going to say, well, they're all fictional people anyway. holograms. right.

463
00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:42.720
I'd forgotten that.

464
00:31:42.779 --> 00:31:45.299
But again, we don't give a shit about killing them, do we?

465
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:48.480
And even when they do come along and we do actually kill them.

466
00:31:48.539 --> 00:31:50.460
So... is that what you think is missing?

467
00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:51.660
that there is no critique.

468
00:31:51.720 --> 00:31:53.339
It's so black and white that they are bad.

469
00:31:53.400 --> 00:31:55.079
Yeah, they are good.

470
00:31:55.140 --> 00:32:07.980
Yeah, so it's kind of weightless, you know, like, and because you're just shooting at them from a distance and they just fall over, you know, like, it's not as grim as war is, and you can't do that on television in a PG show.

471
00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:10.799
I think that Battle Star Galactica does a better job of this.

472
00:32:10.859 --> 00:32:18.059
And I think Battlestar Galactica, like Ron Moore goes away and creates a venue that actually can support this level of critique.

473
00:32:18.119 --> 00:32:21.059
I think they're dipping their toes at this point.

474
00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:24.480
And I think you're right, but I just don't know, like, how far can you go?

475
00:32:24.539 --> 00:32:27.960
Are you saying you shouldn't do this if you can't commit to it wholeheartedly?

476
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:39.720
Well, yeah, I just think because you're trying to make the point that war is hell and it's all just very PG and a bit weightless. you say you just can't make it land?

477
00:32:39.779 --> 00:32:55.440
Oh, I am going to say this, though, because I, there are a few other Star Trek podcasts that I listen to and one of them has a war veteran as, and he found this all really moving and a lot of this, he sort of recognised. maybe we're not the right audience for this as well.

478
00:32:55.500 --> 00:33:04.259
Well, maybe, but I mean, you know, we're here for 30 minutes and and Battlestar Galactica is able to do, you know, longer form storytelling.

479
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:10.259
You know, like this one does at the beginning of series 6, but the beginning of series 6 doesn't put them in a situation like this.

480
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:26.220
I was speaking to Brendan about doing this during the week, and he said that he thought it would be more successful if it had been 3 episodes, like if we just had them stuck there for a whole episode, rather than an episode where they arrive at the beginning, hang about for 30 minutes, and then all go home.

481
00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:28.259
You know, if they, we'd had it.

482
00:33:28.259 --> 00:33:32.700
Save a lot of electricity in the studio, if we did this for 3 episodes, it would have been unwatchable.

483
00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:33.960
I mean it would have been so boring.

484
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:41.160
Like there's just about enough material here to support the 42 minute runtime.

485
00:33:41.700 --> 00:33:45.839
Yeah, and I think they cut to action often enough as well.

486
00:33:45.900 --> 00:33:48.420
Like, you know, there's there's enough going on.

487
00:33:48.660 --> 00:33:58.859
Maybe it's that Star Trek insistence that everyone has to have a go that means that you can't tell a story like this starting in the middle.

488
00:33:58.980 --> 00:34:13.019
You know, we can't have just Ezri and Quark and Julian and Nog and Cisco down on a planet where they've been for weeks and a thing is going on and we see it happening to them.

489
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:14.159
Do you know what I mean?

490
00:34:14.219 --> 00:34:15.599
That would be more effective.

491
00:34:15.659 --> 00:34:20.940
But we have to have the fucking station in a, You know, Miles O'Brien needs to get a line.

492
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:22.980
You know, so we can't do it.

493
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:27.840
We just can't tell this story properly within the constraints of Star Trek, I think.

494
00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:40.139
Whereas there are some shows at this point, like alias that would start somewhere in the middle of the episode and then cut back into beginning, be like, Yeah. 15 hours ago.

495
00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:45.300
Yeah, other TV was doing this at the time, but Star Trek was super conservative in the way that it tells stories.

496
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:52.199
And so, and it still now is, you know, like there's a particular Star Trek structure that you just get.

497
00:34:52.260 --> 00:34:54.780
You're not going to start in the middle of things like that.

498
00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:57.960
You're not going to you know, not have the main characters.

499
00:34:58.019 --> 00:35:05.880
We actually just talk all over that superb scene where Quark says we would not have done this.

500
00:35:05.940 --> 00:35:10.019
If this was... have it out an agreement, you would have handed out an agreement.

501
00:35:10.139 --> 00:35:13.260
And you think, yeah, that's what the Federation is supposed to do.

502
00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:21.719
You know, we had series 4 of discovery where, you know, we're not going to send a bomb, even though they've destroyed some of our planets.

503
00:35:21.780 --> 00:35:25.739
We're going to negotiate with them and make contact and see what we have in common.

504
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:31.260
It's meant to be what the federation does, but here they all are just firing weapons at rubber people.

505
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:37.860
But in the same breath, it's not like DS9 isn't capable of saying like what has happened to it.

506
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:40.860
In rocks and shoals, at the end, where they murder all the Gemadarts.

507
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:44.519
Cisco's appalled, like that he's had to make that call to get his people out of there.

508
00:35:44.579 --> 00:35:46.019
In the pale moonlight.

509
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:51.480
He spends the entire episode, you know, giving himself a therapy session.

510
00:35:51.539 --> 00:35:51.780
Yeah.

511
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:52.980
They can do it.

512
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:54.659
I'm quite sure what happened here.

513
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:56.699
Yeah.

514
00:35:56.760 --> 00:35:57.480
Yeah.

515
00:35:57.539 --> 00:35:58.860
It is funny, isn't it?

516
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:03.780
There just isn't a proper solid kind of position that it takes on the wall.

517
00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:19.500
I think the examination of knock in is only a paper moon is there is a mild critique of this. at the end where he says, I thought I could do anything, and, you know, and I throw myself into any dangerous situation, and now I'm really scared, you know.

518
00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:20.099
Yeah.

519
00:36:20.099 --> 00:36:21.179
Yeah.

520
00:36:21.539 --> 00:36:27.539
But it does it by giving us lots of laughs and songs and wonderful moments, you know?

521
00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:29.280
Yeah, yeah.

522
00:36:29.340 --> 00:36:30.539
That's more fun to watch.

523
00:36:30.840 --> 00:36:34.260
Yeah, I think this is just a little bit miserable.

524
00:36:34.380 --> 00:36:48.360
Well, they lean into this quite a lot, you know, this is real, my, my previous host, Emily, was an expert at this, but somewhere halfway through the season, they decide, right, she's a fully formed character now, and she stops doing it.

525
00:36:48.420 --> 00:36:51.900
But for the 1st half of the season, she mentions every single one.

526
00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:55.980
And at one point they're making lots of, oh, which one, which host was this now, you know?

527
00:36:56.219 --> 00:37:00.659
Yeah, it's funny, I guess, what do you need to do?

528
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:15.239
Because you've got Dax there, and you establish in the 1st episode through flashback how she got to be Dax and stopped being Curzon, because we need that for when he meets when she meets Cisco for the 1st time.

529
00:37:15.300 --> 00:37:16.739
And so we get to see that.

530
00:37:16.860 --> 00:37:25.800
But basically it's not an important part of her except for the odd episode because it's just how she is. until they go, we haven't done a true episode for a while.

531
00:37:25.860 --> 00:37:26.579
Yeah.

532
00:37:26.579 --> 00:37:31.079
We've, he's a magical theme where...

533
00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:34.139
All of your hosts can be inside your friends, you know?

534
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:34.860
Yeah, that's true.

535
00:37:34.860 --> 00:37:36.659
Here's a lover from the past.

536
00:37:36.780 --> 00:37:38.340
It just happens to be a woman.

537
00:37:38.460 --> 00:37:43.800
And the mysterious one that we never talk about who turned out to be a serial killer.

538
00:37:43.860 --> 00:37:44.940
I love that.

539
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:47.699
You know, when he when he comes along in...

540
00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:48.960
Oh, it's his season, isn't it?

541
00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:49.260
Yeah.

542
00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:54.599
When he comes along and they do a procedural and he's melodramatic as hell, honestly.

543
00:37:54.659 --> 00:37:55.500
He's crazy.

544
00:37:55.559 --> 00:37:57.900
That's a different girandex though, isn't it?

545
00:37:58.019 --> 00:37:58.380
That guy.

546
00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:00.119
It's not the same guy as before.

547
00:38:00.179 --> 00:38:03.119
See, that's another dark episode, but it's campus hell.

548
00:38:03.179 --> 00:38:04.199
So it's much more fun.

549
00:38:04.260 --> 00:38:05.219
Yeah, yeah.

550
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:12.239
Yeah, God, this set doesn't look really good on the through the binocular binoculars, does it?

551
00:38:12.300 --> 00:38:14.639
It's completely...

552
00:38:14.699 --> 00:38:17.519
Oh, just reference from the young ones.

553
00:38:17.880 --> 00:38:24.059
I do think I do think Nog Scream in a minute is really horrific.

554
00:38:24.119 --> 00:38:25.019
Yeah, yeah.

555
00:38:25.019 --> 00:38:27.119
They, and they, and they suddenly cut it off.

556
00:38:27.179 --> 00:38:28.739
Don't they, into silence?

557
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:36.360
You know, another thing that I think is super successful about this production is the music?

558
00:38:36.420 --> 00:38:37.920
Oh, yeah.

559
00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:39.659
I think the music is really good.

560
00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:41.699
But it's Joe Chataway.

561
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:42.780
They go for quite.

562
00:38:42.900 --> 00:38:43.199
No, no.

563
00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:45.420
It's Paul Burgillion, isn't it?

564
00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:45.840
Is it?

565
00:38:45.900 --> 00:38:46.559
Oh, okay.

566
00:38:46.739 --> 00:38:49.320
I would just assume if it's good, it's J.

567
00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:49.920
Chataway.

568
00:38:49.980 --> 00:38:51.960
No, no, it's a fresh composer.

569
00:38:52.019 --> 00:38:53.099
I only did a couple of episodes.

570
00:38:53.699 --> 00:39:01.199
And I think they've deliberately wanted quite a pretty sounding score to be quite discordant against the violence.

571
00:39:01.260 --> 00:39:03.599
There goes Nog's leg, by the way.

572
00:39:03.659 --> 00:39:05.219
But yes, that's exactly what they're doing.

573
00:39:06.119 --> 00:39:08.219
There goes his leg.

574
00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:09.539
Yeah there it goes.

575
00:39:09.599 --> 00:39:10.440
It'll be back.

576
00:39:10.500 --> 00:39:12.179
And see, even that's a thing.

577
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:18.599
It's kind of like how he's blowing off his leg, but we know that in the future, he'll just have another leg and everything will be all right.

578
00:39:18.659 --> 00:39:23.219
But to their credit, they give a whole episode over to that.

579
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:24.119
Yeah.

580
00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:30.239
No, no, like O'Brien in hard time, who's had this entire lifetime of prison experiences in his head.

581
00:39:30.300 --> 00:39:31.679
We never go again.

582
00:39:31.739 --> 00:39:34.260
Well, you know, you're going to have to deal with this for the rest of your life.

583
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:35.880
Yeah, never mentioned again.

584
00:39:35.940 --> 00:39:37.559
That's right.

585
00:39:37.860 --> 00:39:40.500
So props for consequences.

586
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:41.940
On DS5.

587
00:39:42.059 --> 00:39:48.000
You see, even that where the kid did all right, it's kind of like, fuck, like what?

588
00:39:48.059 --> 00:39:56.280
Because he's supposed to just get his leg blown off in order to protect the Christmas tree and we're just not even going to critique that in any way?

589
00:39:56.340 --> 00:40:02.280
Like, well, you know, people are dead for the for the Christmas tree, you know.

590
00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:08.460
I just kind of wish Cork had the some kind of upper hand at the end of this.

591
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:11.760
Because he says to Cork now, you know, how dare you say this to me?

592
00:40:11.820 --> 00:40:14.099
I care about everyone under my command, every single one.

593
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:15.900
I sort of shuts him up.

594
00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:17.460
But he's quite violent with him, you know?

595
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:18.719
I don't know.

596
00:40:18.780 --> 00:40:23.219
I just want Cork to have a remark or something to bring in.

597
00:40:23.340 --> 00:40:23.760
It never happens.

598
00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:28.440
I actually thought that it was a bit ugly also making him kill that guy.

599
00:40:28.500 --> 00:40:38.460
I just sort of think it was kind of like you've taken a pacifist position or episode and we're we the writers are going to show you how wrong you are.

600
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:40.679
I didn't get that reading though.

601
00:40:40.739 --> 00:40:47.820
You know, and I'm and Shimmerman said he doesn't want Cork to be violent and he would only let it happen.

602
00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:48.360
Yeah.

603
00:40:48.420 --> 00:40:49.019
Yeah.

604
00:40:49.079 --> 00:41:03.900
But I still kind of think that, you know, he's the one who said we wouldn't be killing one another, we would be negotiating, but he's put in a position where he has to kill someone to protect Nog.

605
00:41:03.960 --> 00:41:11.880
And so it's like, huh, so even you're going to kill someone, you hippie freak, you know, like I just, I thought there was a nastiness to it.

606
00:41:11.940 --> 00:41:14.460
Oh, look at the leg, look at the leg.

607
00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:15.780
This is so funny.

608
00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:17.280
Jesus fucking Christ.

609
00:41:17.340 --> 00:41:18.780
Talk about PG.

610
00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:19.380
Have a look.

611
00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:21.599
And he's going, oh, it doesn't really hurt.

612
00:41:21.659 --> 00:41:22.260
It's fine.

613
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:25.980
I'm like on heaps of drugs and it's the future and no one cares.

614
00:41:26.039 --> 00:41:27.239
You know, like he's not even sweating.

615
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:28.260
It's all a choice thing.

616
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:30.719
I know it's miserable.

617
00:41:30.780 --> 00:41:31.739
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

618
00:41:31.739 --> 00:41:33.239
That full of choice into him.

619
00:41:33.300 --> 00:41:34.920
Oh, it's awful.

620
00:41:34.980 --> 00:41:36.059
Honestly.

621
00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:47.099
I mean, I do feel this point is made even more scathingly invaliant with a bunch of cadets that all get murdered at the end going, yeah, we could do anything.

622
00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:47.940
Yeah, this.

623
00:41:47.940 --> 00:41:49.440
You just followed orders.

624
00:41:49.500 --> 00:41:51.900
You did what you were, you know, trained to do.

625
00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:53.820
I'm proud of you. you know, well done.

626
00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:55.079
You lost your leg, there.

627
00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:56.519
Jesus Christ.

628
00:41:56.940 --> 00:42:00.000
Like, if he wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

629
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:05.519
If he is an indoctrinated Starfleet officer now, as his commanding offer to say, I'm proud of you.

630
00:42:05.579 --> 00:42:09.840
I suppose that is trying to soften the blow a little bit.

631
00:42:09.900 --> 00:42:15.659
But you can see how it valorizes their behaviour.

632
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:26.460
It says we're doing the right thing by doing this and you did the right thing by obeying my orders when I said to go and kill those people in order to protect the Christmas tree.

633
00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:37.500
And so I just think that these things muddy the waters a bit and we end up not coming away, I think, with a very clear anti-war message.

634
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:40.920
And like I said, maybe that's a deliberate aesthetic choice.

635
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:44.820
They just want to raise the questions and that's a legitimate thing that they could choose to do.

636
00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:48.659
But I think it might be a bit of a problem.

637
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:51.539
I mean, props props to them for going there.

638
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:55.500
Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. you know, and we're having a discussion about it now.

639
00:42:55.559 --> 00:42:57.300
So that's right.

640
00:42:57.360 --> 00:42:57.840
That's right.

641
00:42:57.900 --> 00:42:59.639
And even the music in a way does that.

642
00:42:59.699 --> 00:43:14.280
It's like this sort of incredible kind of, it's, it's beautiful, uh, but it's sort of stirring and patriotic as if we're watching a glorious thing happen, you know, despite all the explosions and the people dying.

643
00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:16.199
You know, this is documentary footage from the future.

644
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:21.599
All the little death stars blinking into existence here.

645
00:43:21.659 --> 00:43:24.420
Oh, I do like these, though.

646
00:43:24.420 --> 00:43:29.159
I feel like they should have taken these bombs and used them again in later episodes.

647
00:43:29.219 --> 00:43:30.599
Yeah, they are cute.

648
00:43:30.659 --> 00:43:33.000
And that's completely computer generated, are they?

649
00:43:33.059 --> 00:43:36.840
There is another part of this production that we haven't talked about, and that is the sound effects.

650
00:43:36.900 --> 00:43:43.920
And I think there's a lot of, because the screams sort of coming over the distance at the end are really chilling.

651
00:43:43.980 --> 00:43:50.820
These Houdini minds sort of have this awful... sort of growling home.

652
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:51.360
Yeah.

653
00:43:51.960 --> 00:44:02.460
Now, can we just mention the cephalic veins running down Reese's biceps or is no one else noticing that?

654
00:44:02.519 --> 00:44:05.280
Yeah, well anything to make it a bit more enjoyable?

655
00:44:05.340 --> 00:44:07.139
He is feared, isn't he?

656
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:22.800
I just imagining this exposition scene taking place on discovery with sort of giant, holographic, like transparent, spinning, holographic maps of the terrain, kind of sweet interview and experience.

657
00:44:22.860 --> 00:44:24.360
Yeah, that's right.

658
00:44:24.539 --> 00:44:27.420
We've run out of holographic stuff.

659
00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:29.760
Yeah, we are.

660
00:44:29.820 --> 00:44:34.199
Later on in the season, um, talking about that violent approach.

661
00:44:34.260 --> 00:44:41.880
Obviously, Kira goes to Cardassia and basically it's like pro terrorism at the end of the season.

662
00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:47.760
Because they're basically saying the only way we can bring them down is to kill a lot of them and this is how we're going to do it.

663
00:44:47.820 --> 00:44:51.239
And I'm not sure the series ever critiques that either.

664
00:44:51.360 --> 00:45:03.420
Well, do you remember in Battlestar Galactica on New Caprica, where it seems that the terrorism they're doing is the right thing to do.

665
00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:05.340
Like, it's what they ought to be doing.

666
00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:07.139
And I think that's so good.

667
00:45:07.139 --> 00:45:07.920
Like, it's...

668
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:10.380
That's the beginning of series 3, whether on the planet, isn't it?

669
00:45:10.440 --> 00:45:14.280
And do you remember that after that, they follow that up with the collaborators?

670
00:45:14.340 --> 00:45:20.159
There's like a car bowl that are bringing in all the collaborators and murdering them.

671
00:45:20.219 --> 00:45:21.659
Oh, man.

672
00:45:21.719 --> 00:45:23.460
It's so good.

673
00:45:23.579 --> 00:45:25.500
That's too much for Star Trek, isn't it?

674
00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:26.940
You can't quite go that far.

675
00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:28.619
I mean, Star Trek can barely do this.

676
00:45:28.679 --> 00:45:30.300
I think it can't do this.

677
00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:42.300
I think it doesn't pull it off successfully, but I do think that Battlestar Galactica, which is another space battles show just seems to have the weight to allow it to do this sort of thing successfully.

678
00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:47.579
No real necessary to be optimistic in Battlestar Galactica.

679
00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:49.500
It could be incredibly dark.

680
00:45:49.739 --> 00:45:57.239
Whereas this almost, and you know, there are people that will say this is a complete betrayal of what Star Trek should be doing.

681
00:45:58.260 --> 00:46:03.539
Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I think I agree with you.

682
00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:05.880
It's interesting to see them do something else.

683
00:46:05.940 --> 00:46:18.119
And if they're going to talk about a war, they probably ought to show us what it's really like rather than, you know, it just being a computer game that they're all playing from the comfort of the standing sets.

684
00:46:18.179 --> 00:46:25.380
They do do a bit of that, you know, when they have the blobs on the screen, attacking each other, because they can't afford ACGI, modern work.

685
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:26.460
Yeah.

686
00:46:26.519 --> 00:46:30.480
Oh, he's, I think, you said it does well.

687
00:46:30.539 --> 00:46:32.519
I think they are sort of halfway there here.

688
00:46:32.579 --> 00:46:33.300
Yeah.

689
00:46:33.300 --> 00:46:35.880
But you're right.

690
00:46:35.940 --> 00:46:37.920
They can't take it as far as they need to go.

691
00:46:37.980 --> 00:46:40.440
They can't be as sort of visceral as it needs to be.

692
00:46:40.500 --> 00:46:42.119
Yeah, yeah.

693
00:46:42.179 --> 00:46:43.739
But then you did see that man.

694
00:46:43.800 --> 00:46:49.559
You saw that man in all about to the stronger ideas, guts spilling out all over the place. and you didn't lie.

695
00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:52.619
No, but it's not because of that.

696
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:56.940
Again, I think that it can't pop, it can't properly sell it.

697
00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:02.880
And I just don't think there's any pleasure to be had by putting Jake in that situation where he fails.

698
00:47:02.940 --> 00:47:05.760
And again, there's a cheesiness as well.

699
00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:14.039
You know, all of that conversation that the doctors, the field medics have is just so fucking cheesy and cliche.

700
00:47:14.099 --> 00:47:15.719
It's like love that episode.

701
00:47:15.780 --> 00:47:21.840
They've wandered into a much worse television show and a joke.

702
00:47:21.900 --> 00:47:24.480
It's space, space mash, isn't it?

703
00:47:24.539 --> 00:47:25.980
That's right.

704
00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:29.159
Oh here we go.

705
00:47:29.219 --> 00:47:29.760
Here we go.

706
00:47:29.820 --> 00:47:30.900
We're going into the fight now.

707
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:34.079
Vic Fontaine's serenading them all into the conflict.

708
00:47:34.199 --> 00:47:41.760
I like the flashes in the background, like the flashes against the sky, the fake painted sky, I think is really good.

709
00:47:41.820 --> 00:47:42.480
They look great.

710
00:47:42.539 --> 00:47:48.360
And I think I think this is done really well because it goes very quiet and then the guy goes, oh, maybe they're not coming.

711
00:47:48.420 --> 00:47:49.380
Maybe we got them all.

712
00:47:49.500 --> 00:47:53.219
And then you just hear the screams coming closer and closer and closer.

713
00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:54.960
In terms of suspense.

714
00:47:55.019 --> 00:47:56.519
I think it's well done.

715
00:47:56.579 --> 00:48:06.179
Well, except that we know that they're coming and they'll be a big battle at the end and none of the regulars will die and probably everyone else will, you know, Star Trek.

716
00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:07.739
Cynic, Nathan both away.

717
00:48:08.099 --> 00:48:22.739
There is a moment which I think is actually pretty good, and that is where Cisco blacks out and then comes to, and the show can't have, it can't kill Cisco.

718
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:24.239
It can't kill any of the regulars.

719
00:48:24.300 --> 00:48:40.139
But what it does is it gets us to see and gets us to imagine a version of events where he does die because he blacks out and we don't quite know why he comes to, and neither does he, apparently.

720
00:48:40.199 --> 00:48:42.659
And I don't think it's addressed in dialogue.

721
00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:45.059
And I think that's good.

722
00:48:45.119 --> 00:48:49.559
Like that's as near as we can possibly get to a regular dying.

723
00:48:49.619 --> 00:48:52.739
Yeah, I mean, I think all of this, though.

724
00:48:52.800 --> 00:49:01.500
Or like I've got gone about how chaotic it is, but it is just like, to one fight set piece to another to another, to another.

725
00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:03.239
It's really, really crazy.

726
00:49:03.300 --> 00:49:05.579
And the lighting's great because it's so dark.

727
00:49:05.639 --> 00:49:07.619
So we're kind of getting flashes of the conflict.

728
00:49:07.980 --> 00:49:11.820
If you're going to sort of show war as hell in an action sequence.

729
00:49:11.880 --> 00:49:14.579
I think this is probably as good as it's going to get in 90s, right?

730
00:49:14.639 --> 00:49:16.619
Yeah, yeah, I think you're probably right.

731
00:49:16.679 --> 00:49:26.460
But again, you know, like, like, look at Billy Mummy with, or Asri with that fucking laser phaser rifle, they're so terrible, those guns.

732
00:49:26.820 --> 00:49:29.699
You know, we've commented on...

733
00:49:29.699 --> 00:49:31.500
You're in the 1st series, TNG ones.

734
00:49:31.500 --> 00:49:32.940
Oh, yeah, the Dustbusters.

735
00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:36.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah. which they do kind of redesign.

736
00:49:36.599 --> 00:49:40.079
Excuse me, can I just say, I'm assume, with a look.

737
00:49:40.199 --> 00:49:41.820
I mean, he's so good.

738
00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:42.780
Yeah, that was that.

739
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:46.440
He hasn't got a fucking say a word. prick.

740
00:49:46.500 --> 00:49:47.579
Got a knife in the back.

741
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:51.179
I hope he got stabbed with the other guy's knife.

742
00:49:51.300 --> 00:49:54.480
There's, um, there's Reese of them, I can't remember.

743
00:49:54.539 --> 00:49:58.320
They say that the Gem'adar weapons have an anti-coagulant, don't they?

744
00:49:58.380 --> 00:50:00.239
So that's pretty horrible, isn't it?

745
00:50:00.300 --> 00:50:01.500
mean, you can't stop bleeding.

746
00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:03.179
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

747
00:50:03.239 --> 00:50:05.280
But I mean, in essence, it's word peril.

748
00:50:05.340 --> 00:50:07.920
We don't see people bleeding out as a result, do we?

749
00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:12.960
There is an episode in series 5 where someone bleeds to death very slowly.

750
00:50:13.019 --> 00:50:14.039
Right.

751
00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:24.480
But what I like is that they have recoil and they seem to have weight and they make a really metallic thing and they shoot bullety things.

752
00:50:24.539 --> 00:50:26.820
It's not just firing laser beams at people.

753
00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:29.219
Like they're more like real weapons.

754
00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:30.780
And so I think they're better.

755
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:35.820
Oh, in terms of like muscular villains, the Jemadar up there, aren't they?

756
00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:36.360
Yeah.

757
00:50:36.420 --> 00:50:38.760
In terms of like being a physical threat.

758
00:50:38.820 --> 00:50:40.440
Because very often.

759
00:50:40.500 --> 00:50:49.320
Yeah, but because they're all sort of, you know, grown in a test tube and addicted to crystal meth, we don't really care about.

760
00:50:49.500 --> 00:50:54.059
Like, it's just like, oh, yeah, well, I think those are interesting quirks.

761
00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:57.239
I like and they explore all of that really well as well.

762
00:50:57.300 --> 00:50:58.559
No, I agree.

763
00:50:58.619 --> 00:50:59.099
I agree.

764
00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:02.519
And there are certainly episodes where we're encouraged to sympathise with them.

765
00:51:03.539 --> 00:51:06.360
Otherwise, we'd just be saying, well, they're just faceless grunts, you know.

766
00:51:06.420 --> 00:51:06.960
Yeah.

767
00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:09.119
Well, that's what they are here, essentially.

768
00:51:09.179 --> 00:51:10.139
Yeah, they don't matter.

769
00:51:10.199 --> 00:51:10.920
Yeah.

770
00:51:11.039 --> 00:51:13.980
Yeah, they're just gonna kill us unless we kill them.

771
00:51:14.219 --> 00:51:16.800
Oh, well, we saved the array.

772
00:51:16.860 --> 00:51:17.400
Happy days.

773
00:51:17.460 --> 00:51:21.059
Yes, it's nearly Christmas as well.

774
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:21.659
So.

775
00:51:21.960 --> 00:51:23.940
Yeah, do you know what?

776
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:26.639
Maybe, I mean, they'd never be bold enough to do it.

777
00:51:26.699 --> 00:51:29.940
Maybe if they'd we'd lost a regular here.

778
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:31.920
This would impact a bit more.

779
00:51:31.980 --> 00:51:32.880
Yeah, but they just couldn't do it.

780
00:51:32.940 --> 00:51:33.360
That's it.

781
00:51:33.420 --> 00:51:35.579
The problem is the show is serialised.

782
00:51:35.639 --> 00:51:40.079
Everyone needs to be in it and everyone needs to be back to the status quo ante at the end of the episode.

783
00:51:40.139 --> 00:51:42.059
We just lost one of the regulars.

784
00:51:42.119 --> 00:51:45.840
Why couldn't she just hung around for a couple more episodes and then we took out that?

785
00:51:45.900 --> 00:51:46.800
No, they couldn't.

786
00:51:46.860 --> 00:51:47.460
That's miserable.

787
00:51:47.639 --> 00:51:50.940
Well, it's pretty miserable when she does die here.

788
00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:58.800
But it is a kind of giant ludicrous space opera death, you know, like it's not she gets shot by someone with a big fucking gun.

789
00:51:58.860 --> 00:52:01.980
You know, like that's...

790
00:52:04.920 --> 00:52:06.480
Awesome.

791
00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:10.320
This is what I think you can get behind.

792
00:52:10.380 --> 00:52:11.820
Is it pure melodrama?

793
00:52:11.880 --> 00:52:13.079
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

794
00:52:13.139 --> 00:52:13.800
Exactly, exactly.

795
00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:19.679
I've just reminded myself why I love this soap opera approach.

796
00:52:19.739 --> 00:52:20.699
Yeah, exactly.

797
00:52:20.760 --> 00:52:21.840
That's what I'm here.

798
00:52:21.900 --> 00:52:24.659
That's exactly what I want is soap opera.

799
00:52:24.780 --> 00:52:26.159
And there's, yeah.

800
00:52:26.219 --> 00:52:35.519
Do you know, this, this probably would have benefitted massively from that sort of documentary style camera work they do in bad style, but there's a, yeah.

801
00:52:35.579 --> 00:52:37.440
There's like an immediacy to it, isn't there?

802
00:52:37.500 --> 00:52:37.920
Yeah.

803
00:52:37.980 --> 00:52:43.199
See, that scene there is trying to do something, but does it?

804
00:52:43.260 --> 00:52:48.059
You know, it's kind of like it was a worthy victory, you know, worthy of song.

805
00:52:48.059 --> 00:52:52.500
And normally wharf is wrong. like we've said that before.

806
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:58.380
And Cisco replies with it, cost enough, but like what?

807
00:52:58.440 --> 00:52:59.699
Do you know what I mean?

808
00:52:59.760 --> 00:53:00.179
Like what?

809
00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:03.300
I just don't know what we're saying here.

810
00:53:03.420 --> 00:53:05.579
It's really, really unclear.

811
00:53:06.539 --> 00:53:08.940
The way he says, let's go there.

812
00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:12.539
It's like they've done the initiation of ceremony where now we're men.

813
00:53:12.599 --> 00:53:13.139
Let's go.

814
00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:18.780
You know, now we're going to go and these kids are going to stay here and starve and two-thirds of them are going to be killed.

815
00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:20.340
This ain't fucking boot camp, you know?

816
00:53:21.059 --> 00:53:25.920
So long as the tree is still up by Christmas, they've...

817
00:53:25.980 --> 00:53:32.340
I would like you to note that the surface there is reflecting the lights off the console.

818
00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:34.559
He's very slightly reflective.

819
00:53:34.619 --> 00:53:38.280
I just saw the full light for that. full console in there then.

820
00:53:38.340 --> 00:53:39.059
Thank you very much.

821
00:53:39.119 --> 00:53:43.199
I will put this out every time. shittest laptop, doesn't it?

822
00:53:43.260 --> 00:53:45.179
It's like a huge fat Dell.

823
00:53:45.239 --> 00:53:46.800
It's so nice.

824
00:53:46.920 --> 00:53:48.599
It's it's none of this.

825
00:53:48.659 --> 00:53:51.420
And suddenly all is all right with the world.

826
00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:52.739
Yep, yep.

827
00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:57.179
And her contractual obligations have been met for the episode.

828
00:53:57.239 --> 00:53:58.500
She learns a valuable lesson.

829
00:53:58.559 --> 00:54:00.000
You know what the episode is?

830
00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:03.900
Between the 2 war episodes here.

831
00:54:03.960 --> 00:54:14.519
It's covenant where she goes off to Npok Noor with Dukat, and he's got that evil group of religious, you know, his own religious cult.

832
00:54:14.579 --> 00:54:15.539
Man, it's amazing.

833
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:16.980
This seems to get real terrific.

834
00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:19.320
That's why were we watching that?

835
00:54:19.380 --> 00:54:27.900
And Ducat's got like the, he holds the baby up and it's a half Cardassian baby, so he's been fucking half the religious nuts.

836
00:54:27.960 --> 00:54:28.980
Oh, of course he does.

837
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:30.239
It's like, it's a miracle.

838
00:54:30.300 --> 00:54:34.260
The baby has got a Cardassian face.

839
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:37.440
It's a lot more fun than this.

840
00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:41.400
Well, okay, I've got a question for you then as we out that episode.

841
00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:47.940
Well, you know, I've said, I think this is pretty good. with some problems.

842
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:49.980
You've said it's appallingly terrible.

843
00:54:50.579 --> 00:54:53.039
Why do people rate this then?

844
00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:59.940
I think because it does something that Star Trek doesn't normally do. and I think that's a good thing.

845
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:07.500
They're right to rate it for those reasons, but I also think that there are people who want Star Trek to be properly serious.

846
00:55:07.619 --> 00:55:13.739
And so this is properly serious because it's got guns and fighting and stuff.

847
00:55:13.739 --> 00:55:23.099
And I really meant it when I said that I thought that the scene with Rome at the beginning was the best scene of the episode.

848
00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:28.500
Um, Because I don't think Star Trek is serious.

849
00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:38.280
I think Star Trek is ridiculous and marvellous and, you know, like just fantastic in all kinds of ways.

850
00:55:38.340 --> 00:55:50.400
And I think that just doing a kind of B grade PG war movie that doesn't really particularly say anything about war that seems to be valuable or interesting.

851
00:55:50.460 --> 00:55:54.119
I think it's a bit of a failure this episode.

852
00:55:54.239 --> 00:55:55.500
Did you never try then?

853
00:55:55.559 --> 00:55:55.800
No.

854
00:55:55.860 --> 00:56:01.800
Like, obviously, you remember the wounded in TNG, it tried to do like a trickies on terrorism, didn't it?

855
00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:04.800
Yeah, it's the same problem.

856
00:56:04.860 --> 00:56:10.920
It's so sanitised that you're like, it's just making any kind of a point, but should they just not try then?

857
00:56:11.460 --> 00:56:19.559
I think that someone during development should have said, actually, I don't think we can do this justice in this format because I think that that.

858
00:56:19.619 --> 00:56:21.840
And R.A. said, I want to do it anyway.

859
00:56:21.900 --> 00:56:23.340
I want to try and do this.

860
00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:24.179
Well, good for him.

861
00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:24.539
Yeah.

862
00:56:24.599 --> 00:56:28.500
I think he failed, but, but, you know, it was worth a try.

863
00:56:28.559 --> 00:56:32.280
Certainly lots of people have enjoyed it over the years.

864
00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:35.280
So, you know, maybe it was worth doing.

865
00:56:35.340 --> 00:56:38.760
But I do think it fails basically at what it says out to do.

866
00:56:38.820 --> 00:56:45.480
Often, there's people out there that think you should be institutionalised, saying that take me out of the holiday suite is incredible, and this is a failure.

867
00:56:45.599 --> 00:56:49.199
I'm a very, very perceptive critic.

868
00:56:49.320 --> 00:56:51.300
I would not disagree.

869
00:56:55.559 --> 00:57:06.239
All right, it's the end of the episode and it is time for us to choose the next thing that we're going to watch, and I think it's my turn to press the button.

870
00:57:06.300 --> 00:57:06.719
Am I right?

871
00:57:06.780 --> 00:57:09.300
time for you to choose the next thing we're going to watch.

872
00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:09.780
That's right.

873
00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:15.119
Are you finally going to exceed to popular demand and just do whatever comes up first?

874
00:57:15.239 --> 00:57:18.119
No, I don't think I'm going to do that.

875
00:57:18.179 --> 00:57:30.360
So I am going to do something for a very silly reason, which is that I spend some time writing code on the website so that it can display just 10 episodes at a time of a particular show.

876
00:57:30.420 --> 00:57:36.659
So if there's 11 episodes of Star Trek, the Next Generation, one to 10 will be on one page and 11 will be on another page.

877
00:57:36.719 --> 00:57:37.619
Okay.

878
00:57:37.619 --> 00:57:39.840
Yeah, that's absolute triumph.

879
00:57:39.900 --> 00:57:42.539
But we haven't done 11 episodes of any series yet.

880
00:57:42.599 --> 00:57:45.480
And so I haven't yet put that code into action.

881
00:57:45.539 --> 00:57:52.199
And so for that reason, I'm going to choose another episode of Star Trek Deep Space 9.

882
00:57:52.619 --> 00:58:12.659
Also, the other reason for this is that this was so atypical and an episode that I didn't really enjoy very much and I would like a palate cleanser where I get to watch an episode of Deep Stace 9 that I can laugh at or with or at least near.

883
00:58:12.719 --> 00:58:14.519
I'm going to rely on you.

884
00:58:14.519 --> 00:58:18.719
I mean, I'm not going to say, no, that's not doing an episode.

885
00:58:18.780 --> 00:58:20.760
Let's not watch Deep Space nine.

886
00:58:20.820 --> 00:58:21.360
It's terrible.

887
00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:23.940
Yeah, so that's what we're going to do.

888
00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:25.980
So I am going to press the button.

889
00:58:26.340 --> 00:58:34.800
Ooh, and we have season three, episode five, 2nd skin.

890
00:58:34.980 --> 00:58:37.199
Oh, my word.

891
00:58:37.260 --> 00:58:38.639
I love 2nd skin.

892
00:58:38.699 --> 00:58:41.880
This is faces, but for Deep Shace 9, right?

893
00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:45.000
Well, I was thinking of the Romulan one.

894
00:58:45.179 --> 00:58:47.099
Yeah, is that call faces?

895
00:58:47.159 --> 00:58:49.920
No, that's the one where... is split, isn't it?

896
00:58:49.980 --> 00:58:51.300
It's the face of the enemy.

897
00:58:52.679 --> 00:58:57.360
That's what you always called that episode is B'lana split.

898
00:58:58.260 --> 00:59:00.900
Oh, I never bought that before.

899
00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:03.480
The case of the enemy.

900
00:59:03.539 --> 00:59:08.159
Second skin, I think it's better than the wrong, uh, face of the enemy.

901
00:59:08.219 --> 00:59:09.000
I think it's better than that.

902
00:59:09.059 --> 00:59:12.780
None of it's just fantastic, but it's a great Garak episode as well.

903
00:59:13.860 --> 00:59:15.539
What do you think?

904
00:59:15.659 --> 00:59:30.179
One of the real pleasures, the face of the enemy, is that it's one of the episodes where Marina is just absolutely superb and where she's not being like the good girl or the cat, you know, Roger something to do for once, you know?

905
00:59:30.239 --> 00:59:30.960
Yeah, yeah.

906
00:59:31.019 --> 00:59:35.639
And she absolutely kind of beats Carolyn Seymour's character.

907
00:59:35.639 --> 00:59:37.079
She's brilliant as well.

908
00:59:37.139 --> 00:59:39.599
I mean, you've got 2 women up against each other.

909
00:59:39.659 --> 00:59:40.139
That's strong.

910
00:59:40.260 --> 00:59:40.860
It's great.

911
00:59:40.980 --> 00:59:41.820
Wow.

912
00:59:41.880 --> 00:59:44.760
That's not that so...

913
00:59:44.820 --> 00:59:46.320
But what do you think?

914
00:59:46.380 --> 00:59:49.440
Um, I think it's one of the best of season three.

915
00:59:49.500 --> 00:59:51.239
I think I think we should watch it.

916
00:59:51.300 --> 00:59:53.340
I mean, have some fun with it.

917
00:59:53.400 --> 00:59:56.099
And it's just brilliantly acted.

918
00:59:56.699 --> 00:59:59.099
Right, let's do that one then.

919
01:00:00.840 --> 01:00:02.760
Oh, it's great.

920
01:00:02.820 --> 01:00:03.780
I really love 2nd skin.

921
01:00:04.019 --> 01:00:05.579
Would you?

922
01:00:05.639 --> 01:00:07.440
I like Seeds of H4 558.

923
01:00:07.619 --> 01:00:08.039
So, yeah.

924
01:00:17.219 --> 01:00:22.320
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley.

925
01:00:22.380 --> 01:00:27.780
We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.

926
01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:32.880
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Cisrin, and the theme is composed by Cameron Lamb.

927
01:00:32.940 --> 01:00:38.400
This episode was recorded on the 21st of November 2022 and released on the 25th of November.

928
01:00:38.460 --> 01:00:42.420
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Deep Space 9, 2nd Skin.

929
01:01:02.400 --> 01:01:05.340
I'm not sure what else I can say about this.

930
01:01:06.659 --> 01:01:11.219
Actually, I thought we were kinder than I thought we were going to be, actually. to know.

931
01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:15.059
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, like, it's still Star Trek.

932
01:01:15.119 --> 01:01:16.019
I like Star Trek.

933
01:01:16.079 --> 01:01:17.400
You know, I didn't hate watching it.

934
01:01:17.460 --> 01:01:20.579
It just is not Star Trek that I like very much at all.

935
01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:26.639
And I do think that it does try and do some things, but I do think that essentially, you know, it was doomed to failure.

936
01:01:26.699 --> 01:01:31.920
My L Media player has just started playing an adventure in space and time.

937
01:01:31.980 --> 01:01:34.500
Like when that episode finished.

938
01:01:34.559 --> 01:01:38.400
I had an adventure space and time running on the...

939
01:01:38.400 --> 01:01:39.539
I went straight on to confident.

940
01:01:39.960 --> 01:01:46.019
We're serving up a Tilliban froth, whatever that is, but it promises a lot.

941
01:01:46.079 --> 01:01:47.760
Where's the made up space food?

942
01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:49.320
For fuck's sake.

943
01:01:49.380 --> 01:01:52.559
No, we've already got war rationally older.

944
01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:57.239
Well, it's your choice this time. think it is.

945
01:01:57.539 --> 01:01:59.579
Okay, I've got it.

946
01:01:59.639 --> 01:02:00.840
Oh, this sounds like a bit liar.

947
01:02:00.900 --> 01:02:01.440
Come on.

948
01:02:01.500 --> 01:02:02.519
Or we can laugh at more.

949
01:02:02.579 --> 01:02:03.719
Okay.

950
01:02:04.320 --> 01:02:06.960
Turn on Star Trek Project.

951
01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:10.320
All right, it's the end of the episode.