WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-01 at 21:23:18

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Hey, Joe. Hi.

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So, we're back, and this week, we are watching an episode of Deep

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Space Nine, which is a thing that we do, and it is from series 7

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and it's called The Siege of AR 558.

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I got that number right, didn't I?

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You absolutely did get that right.

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Yes.

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Good.

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Excellent.

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And a very cheerful experience it is too.

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Yes.

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So this is in basically everyone's top 10. that right?

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Maybe 20, I think.

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Yeah, it ranks.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So I think it's time for me to say that I actually didn't really

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enjoy it very much.

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You contrary bastard.

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Well, so, well, it's no take me out to the holosuite.

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Let me just say that.

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I actually think that there are 2 proper problems with it, and I'm

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going to say what they are.

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So I think the 1st one is it's an episode that wants to tell us

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that war is hell, but I think that Deep Space 9 isn't really

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equipped to do that properly.

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And so we have an episode where some of our regulars start in, like

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on the lovely set of the Defiant or on the station or whatever, and

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then they end, you know, on the station.

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And so we basically get a little 30 minute outing where they're at

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war.

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Excuse me, they come back with one leg less.

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Yes, no, that's true, and we will get to that.

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And also I kind of think there's a bit of a weightlessness to it.

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It's still a very PG depiction of war, and so it can't really be

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that grim.

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There's very little blood.

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You know, like the the phaser rifles.

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Do you want to see limbs blowing off?

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Well, I think in order to sell.

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Well, yes, we do see that.

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Oh, we don't.

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It's decorously hidden under a lovely sheet.

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That's crankled up, man.

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I bet where you see the leg.

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Like, I think, oh, come on.

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Seriously, that's the best we can do.

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So there's a real PG ness to it which just kind of prevents it

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from really properly landing.

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And I think there are scenes.

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You know, those phaser rifles they have which are clearly made out

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of kind of balsa wood with sort of vacuum formed plastic on the

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outside.

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And so they're completely weightless.

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They have no recoil.

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There's nothing really very visceral about it.

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It is still sort of sanitised PG, Star Trek.

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And so I don't think that message really lands properly.

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And then I think that it...

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Half the problem is, is that, you know, really give a shit about

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any of these people on an AR 55A. We don't know these people.

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And frankly, when we hear their backstories, we don't want to know

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them.

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No, we don't get very good characterisation off them either.

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And so they're not made fun or funny.

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And when you think about stories about war and, you know, I don't

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know.

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I think this has more atmosphere than you think it does.

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I think it is quite oppressive.

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It's very dark.

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I think it's shot really well on the sound stage.

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They're shoving in loads of dry ice.

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I do feel they managed to capture an element of suspense with the

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Jem'Hadar coming.

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Yeah.

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So I do, I do think in terms of sort of war is how within the

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experience of the episode, that is put across.

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But I, thinking about this as I have, because this is, I know you

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don't like doing this behind the scenes, but this is technically

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take 2 of this episode, because we had issues with the 1st one, and

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it's given me a bit of time to think about it.

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I do think that war is hell is actually presented far more

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effectively in it's only a paper moon in a couple of episodes time

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which is dealing with the fallout of this episode of not losing

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its leg.

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But it does so in a sort of bright, colourful episode, which

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really gets up.

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I say personal with Nog.

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The last character you would ever think to go on this journey

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dealing with PTSD.

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Whereas here, this is just, it's very depressing to watch, isn't

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it?

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Yeah, yeah, I think so.

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And I think I think the other thing that I don't like that much

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about it is that I don't think it really takes a clear position on

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war and maybe that's an aesthetic decision.

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Maybe they just wanted to leave those questions for the audience

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to answer.

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But I think a show that's being broadcast in an American context

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can't really afford to do that.

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So there's no solid critique of what's going on.

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We don't know whether this thing is worth defending when Cisco

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gets asked.

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He just says.

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We never mentioned it again.

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It never gets mentioned again.

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I think if this was a pivotal point in a Dominion war and this

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what is it, communications array was an essential piece of

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equipment in, you know, defeating the Dominion, then maybe this

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was all worth it.

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But they actually say at the end of this, isn't it?

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Was this worth it?

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It goes, well, I hope so.

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And at the end of it, you know, when some fresh new star fleet

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recruits turn up, they're equated to being children and that this

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experience makes them adults.

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The fact that they have been in a battle where they kill other

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people makes them adults.

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And I just think that it teeters pretty precariously on the edge

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of being inadvertently pro war, inadvertently pro the kind of

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loyalty that Nog exhibits in favour of the kind of leadership that

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ban exhibits.

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I just don't think it's critiqued thoroughgoingly enough.

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And I think the only proper critique comes from, obviously, quark

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which is brilliant, and I think you get some great moments in

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this.

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And there is one scene during the fire at the end, which I do, I

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think that's a really well choreographed by, and it's kind of

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violent and chaotic in a way that Star Trek fires aren't usually.

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Normally, you get someone like, you know, ducking over a console

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shooting, and then someone else shooting the other side of the

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room and it's all very safe.

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Whereas this is, it's just a lot of madness going on at once, which

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I really like.

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They've clearly spent a bit of money on this.

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But we cut to quark, and he just looks out at the fighting and the

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look on his face says, how the fuck did we come to this?

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Yeah.

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And I think the message about war as hell is a little muddied

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because war is kind of good for this show.

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It's taken them into interesting avenues.

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And I think the writers know it.

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The directors know it.

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The actors know it.

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And so they put out this episode where they're trying to say, no

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all this terrible hole we've fallen ourselves into at the same

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time, they're like, this amazing place that the show's in.

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It's a bit confusing.

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This war that we made up.

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You know, there is.

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There's this moment, like there's a kind of through arc for Cisco

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where he is looking at the board, you know, at the beginning of

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the episode and saying sometimes now they're just names.

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There's so many of them, I don't even think about the people

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behind them.

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And then he comes back at the end of the episode and he looks at

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the board and then he reminds someone, I can't remember, Kira

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someone who's there, that these are all real people and we need to

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remember that.

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And of course, they're all made up people, you know, in Star

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Trek.

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They're not real at all.

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So yeah, it's all television as you keep reminding that.

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Yeah, that is true.

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That is true.

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With Cisco, though, it's I find that a bit odd as well because

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he's very unlikeable in this and he's kind of written as a

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professional and usually there's like a very sensitive angle with

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Cisco and he's a really nice bloke and yet he's horrible to walk

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in this and that's never commented on.

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Usually when people behave in bad ways in Deep Space 9.

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There is someone giving like an opposing opinion, saying, well

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you're being an asshole.

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Never happens.

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I think, you know, Quirk critiques the way that everyone obeys

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what Ben says and the way Noggin, particular, does and also has a

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go at Nog for doing that as well, says that, you know, this is

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crazy and absurd.

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And but then the thing happens at the end where someone comes

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along to attack nog in the infirmary or whatever, and Quark has to

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kill him to pick up a gun and kill him, and then he's kind of

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shocked and horrified.

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As if, you know, he's been taught a valuable lesson that killing

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people is something that you sometimes have to do and so shut up

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you pacifist, you know, it, it, I do like, I do like the fact that

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the 2 times that court picks up a gun.

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It's only ever, and it's this, and it's in sacramice of angels.

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It's only ever to protect his family.

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So like a last measure.

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That's the only time court will use violence.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I just think, I think there's a, it's muddy and...

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It marries me.

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The more I thought about it, the more I grip.

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But I do think sort of scene to scene, this is still a good

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episode.

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I think it is well directed.

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I think they made a very savvy choice to put like Ezri and Beshit

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the non-combat officers down.

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So you genuinely fear for their lives.

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There are some good set pieces.

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I just, well, the better than usual set pieces.

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They'll be fine.

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No, no, I mean, fearing for their lives.

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And I think there's a very judicious use of bit fontaneous as

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well.

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So, which goes into it's only a paper moon.

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Well, look, we should probably talk about this scene by scene as

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we do it.

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Let's do that.

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All right.

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So I am ready to go.

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I will count us in. 5, 4, 3, 2, one.

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And we're off.

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Okay, so this is the best scene of the episode.

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I know you're going to say this.

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I know that.

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Somebody singing, having fun.

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It's so good.

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And it's it's rom and he's so fantastic.

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And he's so sweet that he can't even bear to sing The Lady as a

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Tramp.

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And so he sings that she's a scamp, which I just think is so

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adorable.

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I love the library. where he says, what is it, show business?

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It breaks your heart.

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It's so great.

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And it is this thing where sort of, you know, Rome is secretly

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competent, but on the surface, he's a bit crap at everything.

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You know, his crap at baseball, his crap at singing and all of

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that sort of thing. failing an audition, you know.

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Well, and he's adorable as well. very cute.

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I've never actually seen match Max Brotonchick in anything else

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other than he's in Sister Act at the beginning.

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He's the one that gets shot.

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That she sees.

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Yeah.

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I've not seen him in anything else.

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I don't think I've ever seen him out of makeup actually.

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That's kind of weird.

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He looks kind of the same, you know.

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Yeah, well I suppose.

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But this is a really, really lovely scene.

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Yeah, so this is Julian is coming in to ask him for some

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recordings to play on the front line and there's some indication

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here that Vic was in the war or something, you know, he's kind of

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the age, you know, what year is this?

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1961 or 2 or something?

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You know, like he's, he's old enough to afford.

253
00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:02.580
I mean, he's not real, but none of them are real, it's all made

254
00:12:02.580 --> 00:12:02.879
up.

255
00:12:02.940 --> 00:12:05.700
But, you know, like, so there is something.

256
00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:09.899
And, you know, there's I just sort of forgive Dame Vera Lyn, you

257
00:12:09.899 --> 00:12:12.240
know, with the English troops and stuff, like people singing in

258
00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:17.639
order to keep the troops going and USO things in the US and stuff

259
00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:18.299
like that, you know.

260
00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:21.840
But it does rather like indicate, well, this is going to be a

261
00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:23.039
special episode, folks, all right?

262
00:12:23.100 --> 00:12:26.279
Because we're going to need some important music to play over the

263
00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:27.360
battle scene at the end.

264
00:12:27.419 --> 00:12:27.720
Yeah.

265
00:12:27.779 --> 00:12:32.100
Yeah, although I didn't, like, I didn't see that coming, I have to

266
00:12:32.100 --> 00:12:32.279
say.

267
00:12:32.340 --> 00:12:36.120
So here we are in the wardroom, watching reading the big list of

268
00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:36.899
made-up people.

269
00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:39.299
Oh, those contractual appearance here.

270
00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:41.519
Yeah, yeah.

271
00:12:41.580 --> 00:12:43.799
There are people who don't appear, are there?

272
00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:44.220
No.

273
00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:47.519
No, no, curious in the last episode. has a few scenes on the

274
00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:48.899
Defiance, so everyone gets their moment.

275
00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:49.559
Yeah, okay.

276
00:12:49.620 --> 00:12:50.279
Everyone gets a go.

277
00:12:50.340 --> 00:12:51.600
Well they have to.

278
00:12:51.659 --> 00:12:53.159
I don't get paid, you know.

279
00:12:53.220 --> 00:12:53.940
Yeah.

280
00:12:53.940 --> 00:13:00.000
I do, okay, I do like the message of these list of names.

281
00:13:00.059 --> 00:13:02.519
They aren't just a list of names.

282
00:13:02.580 --> 00:13:04.139
They are people, they are individuals.

283
00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:08.039
And this episode is trying to drive that point home. by getting us

284
00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:12.000
to know people in the war just because it badly fudges their

285
00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:12.779
characterisation.

286
00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:15.960
It doesn't quite have the impact that it should have.

287
00:13:16.019 --> 00:13:19.559
No, and I mean, that is the thing that we do and even people who

288
00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:22.500
deplore war or are opposed to particular wars.

289
00:13:22.620 --> 00:13:29.100
You know, there is seen to be a sort of valued, like, you know, my

290
00:13:29.100 --> 00:13:33.299
school has a big honour board of all of the people who died, who

291
00:13:33.299 --> 00:13:35.399
went to the school and died in World War one.

292
00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:39.240
And, you know, from an Australian point of view, World War one is

293
00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:41.639
super weird and why were we anywhere near it?

294
00:13:41.700 --> 00:13:45.720
But just taking the time out to remember those kids who did that?

295
00:13:45.779 --> 00:13:51.539
And here it's a little bit kind of borrowed stolen valour, you

296
00:13:51.539 --> 00:13:54.539
know, there's no one really in this war and it's all made up.

297
00:13:54.659 --> 00:13:57.480
And, you know, we don't have to remember the people in this war

298
00:13:57.480 --> 00:13:58.320
because it didn't occur.

299
00:13:58.379 --> 00:14:02.639
I think they made the point more effectively in the Pale Moonlight

300
00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:06.659
when you had Dax and Bashir, looking at the list and Dax saying, oh

301
00:14:06.659 --> 00:14:07.320
I knew that person.

302
00:14:07.379 --> 00:14:10.740
And so you see a reaction from one of our regulars, you know, of

303
00:14:10.740 --> 00:14:11.460
somebody they knew.

304
00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:13.080
Yeah, I agree.

305
00:14:13.139 --> 00:14:15.539
You know, I find this a bit strange.

306
00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:20.039
It's like a fact finding mission into combat for quark.

307
00:14:20.100 --> 00:14:21.000
Like, why would the...

308
00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:23.399
I think...

309
00:14:23.460 --> 00:14:25.379
Smoking's been whispering in the negative.

310
00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:27.659
Let's get rid of him.

311
00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:31.559
We're going to make Rom the Grand Vegas anyway.

312
00:14:31.620 --> 00:14:32.700
Yeah.

313
00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:34.559
So why do we have a council here?

314
00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:39.120
Um, because Ejri is cute as a button and we don't want us to get

315
00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:40.740
hurt.

316
00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:41.580
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

317
00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:44.100
I think she's fabulous, you know.

318
00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:45.539
Yeah, I do too.

319
00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:49.620
I think the 31st, 34th rule of acquisition, is it there?

320
00:14:49.620 --> 00:14:53.399
War is good for business, and I think that is actually really

321
00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:55.980
pretty good, and it's certainly something that the deep space

322
00:14:55.980 --> 00:15:00.240
known writers are aware of at the moment, but it is also true

323
00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:00.899
isn't it?

324
00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:06.659
The, you know, the arms business is huge and it's enormously a

325
00:15:06.659 --> 00:15:09.179
wonderful episode with Stephen Burkoff.

326
00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:09.600
Do you remember?

327
00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:12.899
Business as usual, where...

328
00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:14.460
Oh my god, he's brilliant.

329
00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:15.720
He's campus Christmas.

330
00:15:15.779 --> 00:15:19.139
And he, for once, he's playing ball and actually saying the lines

331
00:15:19.139 --> 00:15:19.740
as written.

332
00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:25.080
And Quark is supplying weapons to both sides of this conflict.

333
00:15:25.259 --> 00:15:29.399
And it's a proper sort of character drama where he realises I

334
00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:32.220
really want, you know, the richie as this will bring me.

335
00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:34.500
Ashley, I'm a terrible person for doing this.

336
00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:36.840
Well, I should have brought that up.

337
00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:38.940
I said, well, look, remember that time you were supplying weapons

338
00:15:38.940 --> 00:15:39.360
to everybody?

339
00:15:39.419 --> 00:15:40.320
Now you're on the other side.

340
00:15:40.379 --> 00:15:41.820
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

341
00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:43.799
This is what the pointy end of the weapons looks like.

342
00:15:44.340 --> 00:15:49.080
And this is this is this whole thing about a family member coming

343
00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:53.759
into the workplace. as a nog experience as here with Quork.

344
00:15:53.820 --> 00:15:55.440
And everyone's horrible to him, but.

345
00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:56.460
Yeah, yeah.

346
00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:03.960
It's um, I guess it's setting up a conflict between Quark and um

347
00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:05.700
Ben, is it?

348
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:10.139
Like Ben's all about business and has a job to do and quite feels

349
00:16:10.139 --> 00:16:14.700
out of place, but Ben's not going to indulge him and that's kind

350
00:16:14.700 --> 00:16:15.899
of how we keep going.

351
00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:20.279
And it's weird though, because I feel like the nog of series one

352
00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:26.639
to 3 was sort of savvy and a bit universe wise, and now he's been

353
00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:29.580
utterly indoctrinated into the Federation, hasn't he?

354
00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:32.399
And he's saying all the usual cliches.

355
00:16:32.460 --> 00:16:35.039
And I feel like he's a little naive for it.

356
00:16:35.100 --> 00:16:36.840
Yeah, yeah.

357
00:16:36.899 --> 00:16:39.960
And I think that that's probably good and that's probably

358
00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:42.720
intentional and you've certainly got quite to call him out for

359
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:42.960
it.

360
00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:47.340
Yeah, when he says, oh, you know, the fellow's got the, the

361
00:16:47.340 --> 00:16:50.159
Keproso white tubes around his neck, isn't that amazing?

362
00:16:50.220 --> 00:16:51.720
And Quark's going, are you serious?

363
00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:54.240
super mean.

364
00:16:54.299 --> 00:16:55.980
But God walked in this, you know?

365
00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:57.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

366
00:16:57.779 --> 00:16:58.139
Yeah.

367
00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:00.059
Oh, it would be a much worse episode.

368
00:17:00.179 --> 00:17:03.360
It would be just an entire endorsement of this approach, wouldn't

369
00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:05.160
it, of conflicts.

370
00:17:05.220 --> 00:17:09.180
Now, are we going to mention standard cave set number one?

371
00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:12.599
at this point, this is anywhere near as terrible as you're going

372
00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:13.079
to say.

373
00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:14.220
Because I think it's well lit.

374
00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:16.859
They've brought what they brought the lights right down.

375
00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:17.880
Yeah.

376
00:17:17.940 --> 00:17:21.660
In fact, I'm trying to watch it on my...

377
00:17:21.660 --> 00:17:25.079
It means when they shoot when you see the bolts and things like

378
00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:25.259
that.

379
00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:27.660
It's a shock because it comes out of darkness, you know?

380
00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:31.140
Yeah, I'm trying to watch it on my computer screen and I'm trying

381
00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:34.440
to have my screen at a brightness level that doesn't blow my eyes

382
00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:38.940
out when I'm looking at you and my notes, which are on a white

383
00:17:38.940 --> 00:17:42.480
background, while it's just so you can see what's going on on the

384
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:43.380
fucking screen.

385
00:17:44.940 --> 00:17:48.119
It's very dark.

386
00:17:48.180 --> 00:17:48.900
Very dark.

387
00:17:49.019 --> 00:17:49.740
It's very dark.

388
00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:54.240
I'm trying to find a screenshot for the website and all I've got

389
00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:59.880
is, you know, Cisco with a big gun in a black uniform against a

390
00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:02.940
black background and it's...

391
00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:06.839
Just the whites of the Oh no, I can't say that.

392
00:18:06.900 --> 00:18:07.680
Can I watch it?

393
00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:08.640
Really?

394
00:18:08.700 --> 00:18:12.180
It's not a, it's very, very dark.

395
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:16.619
And of course, trying to screen cap any of those scenes as well

396
00:18:16.619 --> 00:18:21.480
because everything's moving and because there's sparks and

397
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:25.920
movement and dust and stuff, it is very hard to get a clear read

398
00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.500
on anything, which I think is good, you know.

399
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:33.240
But I do think that the, I'm going to say this one, don't you

400
00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:33.779
laugh at me?

401
00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:39.000
Cinematography in this episode, they use sort of oppressive red

402
00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:43.740
lighting and the array is really well lit as well.

403
00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:45.960
And I just felt, what?

404
00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:51.660
I think the array looks like an absolute Star Trek chocolate box.

405
00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:53.339
It's like so ridiculous.

406
00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:58.680
It's so clean and kind of like it looks like the station and it's

407
00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:01.920
got no reflective surfaces on it and it's sort of, you know

408
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:04.680
primary coloured lights and all of that sort of thing.

409
00:19:04.740 --> 00:19:08.759
I think it looks very pretty, but I think we've got some point now

410
00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:12.720
in 90s track where they are actually thinking about how things

411
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:18.539
look and, you know, they're making an effort to be a little less

412
00:19:18.539 --> 00:19:20.819
beige than things were in next generation times.

413
00:19:21.059 --> 00:19:25.140
Oh no, I think I mean, I still think it looks good, but it is kind

414
00:19:25.140 --> 00:19:26.400
of slightly cheesy.

415
00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:28.680
So they're being fired on.

416
00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:31.319
They've just landed and they're being fired on by the people who

417
00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:32.579
are already here.

418
00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:37.140
We're only going to meet 4 people.

419
00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:38.940
Is that right?

420
00:19:39.059 --> 00:19:43.500
So we've got Vargas, who is the hot guy who is...

421
00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:44.940
I think he's the worst before.

422
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:48.900
I know you're going to say... the one with the backstory is the

423
00:19:48.900 --> 00:19:49.140
worst.

424
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:50.940
There's 2 other targets.

425
00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:52.980
I like the commander.

426
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:54.480
I think she's quite.

427
00:19:54.539 --> 00:19:58.200
Yeah, Larkin, if a bit to the point.

428
00:19:58.259 --> 00:20:00.000
And I like Bill Mummy's character as well.

429
00:20:00.059 --> 00:20:01.319
He's very likeable.

430
00:20:01.380 --> 00:20:03.420
But the other two, the 2 blokes.

431
00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:04.259
I'll tell you what.

432
00:20:04.740 --> 00:20:10.200
Yeah, no, this guy, like the, yeah, Vegas, Raymond Cruz, as

433
00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:10.859
Vargas.

434
00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:15.480
He is really hilariously bad, but he's kind of hot, so I don't

435
00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:15.720
care.

436
00:20:15.779 --> 00:20:19.200
And the other guy, Reese, is pretty hot as well, which is kind of

437
00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:22.920
nice, but all I've got to say to you is this.

438
00:20:22.980 --> 00:20:26.339
And I just sat there and I looked at him.

439
00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:29.099
One time in his life, he's quiet.

440
00:20:29.220 --> 00:20:31.079
It's so bad.

441
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:32.759
It's so bad.

442
00:20:32.819 --> 00:20:36.599
So yeah, we don't get any quirks from these people.

443
00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:38.099
We don't get any character beats.

444
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:40.380
They don't really talk about their families.

445
00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:42.240
There's nothing they're missing back home.

446
00:20:42.299 --> 00:20:44.700
They are super anonymous.

447
00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:46.980
And I think it's a shame.

448
00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:49.019
Do you remember that episode?

449
00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:54.119
And and they go off with 4 engineers, young engineers, and you've

450
00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:57.180
got the one who collects the insignia, you've got the Bolian, who's

451
00:20:57.180 --> 00:20:57.720
a bit nervous.

452
00:20:57.779 --> 00:21:01.799
You've got the woman who's like all military and like, you know

453
00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:05.099
I've got a gun and I'm really impro- but and but they're all, like

454
00:21:05.099 --> 00:21:07.859
you say, they're quite quirky and they're memorable for it.

455
00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:10.680
There's not much of that area, is there?

456
00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:12.000
Yeah, look at this.

457
00:21:12.059 --> 00:21:13.019
It's a Christmas box.

458
00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:13.680
Look at it.

459
00:21:13.740 --> 00:21:17.039
It's like that looks like a giant Christmas tree that picks up

460
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:17.880
enemy signals.

461
00:21:17.940 --> 00:21:19.799
It's really hilarious. it?

462
00:21:19.859 --> 00:21:21.119
It is a big set.

463
00:21:21.180 --> 00:21:22.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

464
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:22.500
Yep.

465
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:24.420
I think it's specially constructed.

466
00:21:24.420 --> 00:21:28.319
Or maybe they've just taken the defiant warp core and flung some

467
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:29.759
polystar in rocks in it.

468
00:21:29.819 --> 00:21:31.319
We even find out why they need it.

469
00:21:31.380 --> 00:21:32.400
No.

470
00:21:32.460 --> 00:21:34.440
Yeah, no, yeah.

471
00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:35.339
We hope it's okay.

472
00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:39.000
And I think too, there is something super odd about this, right?

473
00:21:39.059 --> 00:21:40.559
They're stuck there.

474
00:21:40.619 --> 00:21:45.000
There's 150 people and half of them, 2 thirds of them are dead

475
00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:45.240
right?

476
00:21:45.299 --> 00:21:47.819
And they're not getting supplies.

477
00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:49.500
They've not been relieved.

478
00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:53.400
And Cisco doesn't sort of think that that's a huge disaster or

479
00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:53.579
anything.

480
00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:55.380
He just says, oh, well, suck it up.

481
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:57.240
Our forces are really thin, you know?

482
00:21:57.299 --> 00:21:58.799
He's going to bugger off in a minute, isn't he?

483
00:21:58.859 --> 00:22:00.720
You go, right, well, see you later, guys, you know.

484
00:22:00.779 --> 00:22:03.720
It's only because the Gemadar attack. no we're going to stay.

485
00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:05.819
Yeah, at least he doesn't do that.

486
00:22:05.880 --> 00:22:09.000
But there is this kind of level of comfort with this situation

487
00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:10.079
which is appalling.

488
00:22:10.140 --> 00:22:13.440
And I guess the reason that we don't get sort of cute comedy

489
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:18.420
quirks is because everyone has suffered such a, you know

490
00:22:18.420 --> 00:22:22.259
incredible disaster, this is not the sort of thing that we hear

491
00:22:22.259 --> 00:22:24.299
about in a normal Star Trek episode.

492
00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:28.799
You know, like think about the doomsday machine where poor old

493
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:33.420
Captain Watts's face had to listen to all of his crew get killed.

494
00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:34.019
Oh, Decker.

495
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:34.259
Yeah.

496
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:35.819
Your decker, yeah, yeah.

497
00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:39.839
You know, but apart from that, we don't normally, you know, get

498
00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:40.619
this sort of thing.

499
00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:45.480
And so maybe we don't have fun character beats because that make

500
00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:48.420
us care about the characters because they're all ground down by

501
00:22:48.420 --> 00:22:50.039
what they've been through.

502
00:22:50.099 --> 00:22:54.180
We don't learn, I don't think we learn anything about Bill Mummy's

503
00:22:54.180 --> 00:22:58.680
character, but he's such a likeable performance and I think he

504
00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:00.779
develops a nice rapport with Ezri.

505
00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:04.140
I think that's the bit that hit in the finale for me, was the bit

506
00:23:04.140 --> 00:23:07.680
where he dies and then she shouts out his name and it's, you know

507
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:13.559
those war film cliches. you know, on the on the battlefield.

508
00:23:13.619 --> 00:23:16.019
But it did strike a chord with me.

509
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:20.039
Do you think we like him more too because he was Will Robinson as

510
00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:20.279
well?

511
00:23:20.339 --> 00:23:24.779
You know, like he was a little boy on telly, you know?

512
00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:27.180
And that's Lanier from Babylon 5.

513
00:23:28.619 --> 00:23:31.140
I've never even heard of Babylon.

514
00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:32.519
I don't know what it is.

515
00:23:32.579 --> 00:23:34.500
Well, I would choose you one day.

516
00:23:35.099 --> 00:23:38.579
I think I think he's That's the cartoon spaceship one.

517
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:39.420
That's that.

518
00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:40.019
That's right.

519
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:40.380
Yeah.

520
00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:40.920
Yes.

521
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:41.160
Yeah.

522
00:23:41.220 --> 00:23:43.259
As opposed to the model space station one.

523
00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:47.460
He says cartoon spaceships, but they're good.

524
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:49.859
So what do you think about this whole sequence of court going on

525
00:23:49.859 --> 00:23:50.220
about?

526
00:23:50.220 --> 00:23:55.019
The humanity when their bellies are empty, they become as savage

527
00:23:55.019 --> 00:23:57.480
and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon?

528
00:23:57.900 --> 00:24:05.460
Yeah, I think that that is a thing that's worth saying in 90s trek

529
00:24:05.460 --> 00:24:10.740
and I'm glad it's not the sort of thing that we say now, but the

530
00:24:10.740 --> 00:24:15.119
critique of 90s trek where they're all just sort of cruising

531
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:18.960
around the galaxy and luxury starships that provide them with

532
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:20.759
everything that they could ever want and stuff.

533
00:24:20.819 --> 00:24:22.799
All of that is pretty great.

534
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:29.640
But the reality, I don't know.

535
00:24:29.700 --> 00:24:33.240
I think that the way that this show injects a bit of reality into

536
00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:37.740
that Starfleet fantasy is good and good for the time, right?

537
00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:40.259
I do not expect you to say that, you know.

538
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:44.759
Yeah, I think like because the other big speech that Quirk does in

539
00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:48.539
the gem Hadar, you know, where he talks about...

540
00:24:48.539 --> 00:24:50.039
When he calls him out being racist.

541
00:24:50.099 --> 00:24:50.579
Yeah.

542
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:51.420
Yeah.

543
00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:54.900
And he says, our history doesn't have the genocides that your

544
00:24:54.900 --> 00:24:55.799
history has.

545
00:24:55.859 --> 00:24:58.920
And that's always worth reminding us of.

546
00:24:58.980 --> 00:25:04.619
You know, if we're fairly comfortable, we feel virtuous because

547
00:25:04.619 --> 00:25:07.680
we're not doing anything very bad, but put us in a difficult

548
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:09.420
situation and what are we like?

549
00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:12.059
And I think that that's a question worth asking.

550
00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:17.039
But I do like a version of Star Trek that answers that question by

551
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:23.220
saying people get better, like that as a result of, you know, the

552
00:25:23.220 --> 00:25:27.000
end of poverty and the end of scarcity and the end of want and the

553
00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:30.900
end of racism and all of these things, we become better people.

554
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:36.599
And I think now that's a story that particularly needs to be told

555
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:40.619
whereas perhaps at this time, it's probably a story that needs

556
00:25:40.619 --> 00:25:42.000
puncturing from time to time.

557
00:25:43.140 --> 00:25:45.299
Yeah, and I get that.

558
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:50.940
And I think that, um, the sort of the optimistic approach of Star

559
00:25:50.940 --> 00:25:54.660
Trek, and especially they really lean into it in Kurtzman Trek.

560
00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:57.359
Yeah, it's kind of needed now, you know?

561
00:25:57.420 --> 00:26:00.900
And it's kind of unique because most shows are dark and cynical

562
00:26:00.900 --> 00:26:04.259
and depressing and, you know, and it's nice to have a show that's

563
00:26:04.259 --> 00:26:04.859
waving the flat.

564
00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:06.359
I know what you're going to say about this.

565
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:09.000
Get there in a second.

566
00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:12.720
I've already quoted it, all right?

567
00:26:13.859 --> 00:26:16.500
Don't you touch that bandage.

568
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:18.180
Oh my god.

569
00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:21.359
So this is Vargas losing his shit at being treated by Julian.

570
00:26:21.420 --> 00:26:26.519
He's about to tell us the tragic backstory of whatever this guy

571
00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:32.819
was, and it's so cliched and so poorly performed.

572
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:34.319
It's so...

573
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:35.220
You know what, this fella?

574
00:26:35.220 --> 00:26:38.099
This fella was in an episode of the X-Files, right?

575
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:41.759
And it was done as a sort of, yeah, it was this Spanish soap opera

576
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:47.940
episode where he had a bride who was like this golem and he was

577
00:26:47.940 --> 00:26:48.900
just as bad in that.

578
00:26:48.900 --> 00:26:54.119
But he's in a church, sort of frustrating and behaving like a

579
00:26:54.119 --> 00:26:55.799
dreadful soap opera character.

580
00:26:55.859 --> 00:26:58.500
I mean, I don't mean he's hot, but he ain't great.

581
00:26:58.619 --> 00:26:59.339
Yeah, yeah.

582
00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:01.799
I mean, this is so bad.

583
00:27:01.859 --> 00:27:08.339
This is so, so kind of cheesy and cliche ridden and miserable, you

584
00:27:08.339 --> 00:27:08.519
know.

585
00:27:09.900 --> 00:27:12.720
And but she literally goes to Cisco.

586
00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:15.299
I goes, look, these people are ill, all right?

587
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:19.740
I've just had this agonising conversation with this fella around

588
00:27:19.740 --> 00:27:19.980
there.

589
00:27:20.039 --> 00:27:20.880
Yeah.

590
00:27:20.940 --> 00:27:21.539
Yeah.

591
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:26.099
Sorry, going back very quickly to the optimism in Star Trek.

592
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:32.819
I think the danger of it is it can be a bit boring sometimes that

593
00:27:32.819 --> 00:27:36.000
we're all whiter than white and it can be a bit contradictory

594
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:39.420
because they were bloody arrogant in those early seasons of TNG

595
00:27:39.420 --> 00:27:42.960
going around civilising the universe and that's annoying.

596
00:27:43.019 --> 00:27:47.819
And I do think when they lean into the cynicism or they examine

597
00:27:47.819 --> 00:27:53.819
the Federation, in latter day, DS9, in episodes like Valiant and

598
00:27:53.819 --> 00:27:56.880
things like that, it's really interesting sometimes as well. to

599
00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:58.740
sort of pick up the rock and see what's underneath.

600
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:01.980
That's what makes something like section 31 so interesting.

601
00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:03.660
Yeah, yeah.

602
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:07.619
And I'm not a huge fan of Section 31 and when I hear that there's

603
00:28:07.619 --> 00:28:10.859
a Section 31 show in development and who knows if it'll ever go

604
00:28:10.859 --> 00:28:12.900
anywhere with Michelle Yeoh.

605
00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:13.920
I think it is.

606
00:28:14.460 --> 00:28:16.319
Yeah, they're giving her a list.

607
00:28:16.380 --> 00:28:17.339
Who cares what it's about?

608
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:17.819
You know?

609
00:28:17.819 --> 00:28:18.960
Exactly.

610
00:28:19.140 --> 00:28:25.019
But I just kind of wonder how it works in the context of new track

611
00:28:25.019 --> 00:28:28.559
you know, like how can it work?

612
00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:31.619
I'll say this.

613
00:28:31.619 --> 00:28:33.420
I'm Discovery...

614
00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:34.559
I'm glad they did it.

615
00:28:34.619 --> 00:28:40.980
I'm glad they had the balls to examine it all and to say, you know

616
00:28:40.980 --> 00:28:43.380
what, maybe we're not white or the white all the time. sometimes

617
00:28:43.380 --> 00:28:44.700
we have to do what we have to do.

618
00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:49.799
But I'm also pleased that they've gone in the other direction now

619
00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:53.400
because, man, man, we're in dark times.

620
00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:57.180
It's quite nice to see people behaving in a wide way, you know?

621
00:28:57.240 --> 00:28:59.700
Well, just in a way that's desperational.

622
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:04.019
Like they're not kind of sickly or milk toast or kind of goody

623
00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:04.019
goody.

624
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:08.400
They're just, they love one another and they are excited by their

625
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:12.900
jobs and, you know, they like doing what they do and they're

626
00:29:12.900 --> 00:29:13.319
competent.

627
00:29:13.380 --> 00:29:14.519
I think it's really lovely.

628
00:29:14.579 --> 00:29:15.539
It's really super fun.

629
00:29:15.660 --> 00:29:17.940
But to, in like DS9's defence.

630
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:21.420
I think they balance the dark and the light really well because

631
00:29:21.420 --> 00:29:23.759
they do some really fun stuff as well.

632
00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:28.019
But also like, you know, you've seen how bad this can be, this

633
00:29:28.019 --> 00:29:33.000
examination when you get to series 3 of enterprise and everyone's

634
00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:34.440
behaving in an appalling way.

635
00:29:35.160 --> 00:29:38.160
Just like, let the Zindi wipe them out.

636
00:29:38.220 --> 00:29:38.940
What are they for?

637
00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:40.079
Like, what's the point of them?

638
00:29:40.140 --> 00:29:44.819
On the whole, in DS9, they are cooled out, you know, if they have

639
00:29:44.819 --> 00:29:45.180
to be.

640
00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:47.819
Whereas in Enterprise, it's just like, no, that's it.

641
00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:50.640
We've got to stop this weapon, the we'll do whatever we haven't

642
00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:51.059
happened.

643
00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:51.839
All bets are off.

644
00:29:51.900 --> 00:29:52.920
We can do whatever we want.

645
00:29:52.980 --> 00:29:54.000
Yeah, yeah.

646
00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:57.180
Well, what's going on?

647
00:29:57.240 --> 00:29:58.799
I've completely lost back of the episode.

648
00:29:58.859 --> 00:30:00.480
I can't even see anything on the screen.

649
00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:02.160
There's some dim shapes.

650
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:06.480
I feel like I'm an old man watching TV right now.

651
00:30:06.539 --> 00:30:08.220
Is that a person?

652
00:30:11.339 --> 00:30:14.099
Oh, is it the Houdini mines?

653
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:17.819
So we did have the dialogue explaining the Houdini minds, which

654
00:30:17.819 --> 00:30:21.299
they end up using themselves, which like, wow, you know, that's

655
00:30:21.299 --> 00:30:22.440
very shocking.

656
00:30:22.500 --> 00:30:25.920
That was a, that was a deliberate choice because um, Irish even

657
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:30.599
bear says, oh, memory, I thought, uh, we wanted to show that

658
00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:35.700
things had gotten so bad that we were using the weapons uh, that

659
00:30:35.700 --> 00:30:36.779
they were going to use.

660
00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:40.859
What's interesting is in rocks and shoals in series 6, they do

661
00:30:40.859 --> 00:30:41.759
exactly the same thing.

662
00:30:41.819 --> 00:30:42.539
Right.

663
00:30:42.539 --> 00:30:45.119
But they get called out on it.

664
00:30:45.180 --> 00:30:48.660
Um, I can't remember who says it now, but some of, I think it's

665
00:30:48.660 --> 00:30:49.619
Dags, they might say it.

666
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:52.980
It was like, oh, you know, half an hour ago we were saying these

667
00:30:52.980 --> 00:30:56.039
appalling weapons, you know, and now we're going to use them to

668
00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:56.880
get out of this hole.

669
00:30:57.000 --> 00:30:59.519
No one really does that, did they?

670
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:00.299
does that comment on it?

671
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:01.920
No, someone, I think, does comment on it.

672
00:31:01.980 --> 00:31:03.539
There is a line of dialogue about it.

673
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:05.880
Oh no, Ezry does, doesn't she?

674
00:31:05.940 --> 00:31:06.779
does it in this.

675
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:07.619
I'm thinking of.

676
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:08.880
Oh, it's always Dax.

677
00:31:08.940 --> 00:31:11.460
Oh, and so the knife, Jesus Christ.

678
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:15.779
Like, he's fucking, you know, what's he going to do with a knife?

679
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:17.640
He's going to cut their ears off or something.

680
00:31:17.700 --> 00:31:21.720
See, that's the other thing too, is that part of the

681
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:25.500
weightlessness of this comes from the fact that the people are

682
00:31:25.500 --> 00:31:29.339
rubber aliens being shot at by laser beams.

683
00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:32.759
And so we never really care that we're killing them.

684
00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:35.819
Like whole heaps of them are being killed right now as we watch.

685
00:31:35.880 --> 00:31:37.440
Ooh, that one went high up in the air.

686
00:31:37.500 --> 00:31:39.480
Well, I'm going to say they're holograms, but you're going to say

687
00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:42.059
well, they're all fictional people anyway. holograms. right.

688
00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:42.720
I'd forgotten that.

689
00:31:42.779 --> 00:31:45.299
But again, we don't give a shit about killing them, do we?

690
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:48.480
And even when they do come along and we do actually kill them.

691
00:31:48.539 --> 00:31:50.460
So... is that what you think is missing?

692
00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:51.660
that there is no critique.

693
00:31:51.720 --> 00:31:53.339
It's so black and white that they are bad.

694
00:31:53.400 --> 00:31:55.079
Yeah, they are good.

695
00:31:55.140 --> 00:31:57.660
Yeah, so it's kind of weightless, you know, like, and because

696
00:31:57.660 --> 00:32:00.539
you're just shooting at them from a distance and they just fall

697
00:32:00.539 --> 00:32:06.240
over, you know, like, it's not as grim as war is, and you can't do

698
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:07.980
that on television in a PG show.

699
00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:10.799
I think that Battle Star Galactica does a better job of this.

700
00:32:10.859 --> 00:32:13.859
And I think Battlestar Galactica, like Ron Moore goes away and

701
00:32:13.859 --> 00:32:18.059
creates a venue that actually can support this level of critique.

702
00:32:18.119 --> 00:32:21.059
I think they're dipping their toes at this point.

703
00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:24.059
And I think you're right, but I just don't know, like, how far can

704
00:32:24.059 --> 00:32:24.480
you go?

705
00:32:24.539 --> 00:32:27.299
Are you saying you shouldn't do this if you can't commit to it

706
00:32:27.299 --> 00:32:27.960
wholeheartedly?

707
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:31.980
Well, yeah, I just think because you're trying to make the point

708
00:32:31.980 --> 00:32:37.319
that war is hell and it's all just very PG and a bit weightless

709
00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:39.720
you say you just can't make it land?

710
00:32:39.779 --> 00:32:42.839
Oh, I am going to say this, though, because I, there are a few

711
00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:46.680
other Star Trek podcasts that I listen to and one of them has a

712
00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:51.779
war veteran as, and he found this all really moving and a lot of

713
00:32:51.779 --> 00:32:54.839
this, he sort of recognised. maybe we're not the right audience

714
00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:55.440
for this as well.

715
00:32:55.500 --> 00:32:58.980
Well, maybe, but I mean, you know, we're here for 30 minutes and

716
00:32:58.980 --> 00:33:03.299
and Battlestar Galactica is able to do, you know, longer form

717
00:33:03.299 --> 00:33:04.259
storytelling.

718
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:07.740
You know, like this one does at the beginning of series 6, but the

719
00:33:07.740 --> 00:33:10.259
beginning of series 6 doesn't put them in a situation like this.

720
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:13.920
I was speaking to Brendan about doing this during the week, and he

721
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:16.859
said that he thought it would be more successful if it had been 3

722
00:33:16.859 --> 00:33:20.519
episodes, like if we just had them stuck there for a whole episode

723
00:33:20.519 --> 00:33:24.359
rather than an episode where they arrive at the beginning, hang

724
00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:26.220
about for 30 minutes, and then all go home.

725
00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:28.259
You know, if they, we'd had it.

726
00:33:28.259 --> 00:33:30.900
Save a lot of electricity in the studio, if we did this for 3

727
00:33:30.900 --> 00:33:32.700
episodes, it would have been unwatchable.

728
00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:33.960
I mean it would have been so boring.

729
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:40.259
Like there's just about enough material here to support the 42

730
00:33:40.259 --> 00:33:41.160
minute runtime.

731
00:33:41.700 --> 00:33:45.839
Yeah, and I think they cut to action often enough as well.

732
00:33:45.900 --> 00:33:48.420
Like, you know, there's there's enough going on.

733
00:33:48.660 --> 00:33:52.799
Maybe it's that Star Trek insistence that everyone has to have a

734
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:58.140
go that means that you can't tell a story like this starting in

735
00:33:58.140 --> 00:33:58.859
the middle.

736
00:33:58.980 --> 00:34:05.039
You know, we can't have just Ezri and Quark and Julian and Nog and

737
00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:10.980
Cisco down on a planet where they've been for weeks and a thing is

738
00:34:10.980 --> 00:34:13.019
going on and we see it happening to them.

739
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:14.159
Do you know what I mean?

740
00:34:14.219 --> 00:34:15.599
That would be more effective.

741
00:34:15.659 --> 00:34:19.260
But we have to have the fucking station in a, You know, Miles

742
00:34:19.260 --> 00:34:20.940
O'Brien needs to get a line.

743
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:22.980
You know, so we can't do it.

744
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:26.880
We just can't tell this story properly within the constraints of

745
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:27.840
Star Trek, I think.

746
00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:32.579
Whereas there are some shows at this point, like alias that would

747
00:34:32.579 --> 00:34:36.480
start somewhere in the middle of the episode and then cut back

748
00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:40.139
into beginning, be like, Yeah. 15 hours ago.

749
00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:42.900
Yeah, other TV was doing this at the time, but Star Trek was super

750
00:34:42.900 --> 00:34:45.300
conservative in the way that it tells stories.

751
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:49.079
And so, and it still now is, you know, like there's a particular

752
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:52.199
Star Trek structure that you just get.

753
00:34:52.260 --> 00:34:54.780
You're not going to start in the middle of things like that.

754
00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:57.960
You're not going to you know, not have the main characters.

755
00:34:58.019 --> 00:35:04.199
We actually just talk all over that superb scene where Quark says

756
00:35:04.199 --> 00:35:05.880
we would not have done this.

757
00:35:05.940 --> 00:35:09.539
If this was... have it out an agreement, you would have handed out

758
00:35:09.539 --> 00:35:10.019
an agreement.

759
00:35:10.139 --> 00:35:12.960
And you think, yeah, that's what the Federation is supposed to

760
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:13.260
do.

761
00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:18.300
You know, we had series 4 of discovery where, you know, we're not

762
00:35:18.300 --> 00:35:21.179
going to send a bomb, even though they've destroyed some of our

763
00:35:21.179 --> 00:35:21.719
planets.

764
00:35:21.780 --> 00:35:24.960
We're going to negotiate with them and make contact and see what

765
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:25.739
we have in common.

766
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:29.280
It's meant to be what the federation does, but here they all are

767
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:31.260
just firing weapons at rubber people.

768
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:35.219
But in the same breath, it's not like DS9 isn't capable of saying

769
00:35:35.219 --> 00:35:37.860
like what has happened to it.

770
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:40.139
In rocks and shoals, at the end, where they murder all the

771
00:35:40.139 --> 00:35:40.860
Gemadarts.

772
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:43.800
Cisco's appalled, like that he's had to make that call to get his

773
00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:44.519
people out of there.

774
00:35:44.579 --> 00:35:46.019
In the pale moonlight.

775
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:51.179
He spends the entire episode, you know, giving himself a therapy

776
00:35:51.179 --> 00:35:51.480
session.

777
00:35:51.539 --> 00:35:51.780
Yeah.

778
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:52.980
They can do it.

779
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:54.659
I'm quite sure what happened here.

780
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:56.699
Yeah.

781
00:35:56.760 --> 00:35:57.480
Yeah.

782
00:35:57.539 --> 00:35:58.860
It is funny, isn't it?

783
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:03.239
There just isn't a proper solid kind of position that it takes on

784
00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:03.780
the wall.

785
00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:07.679
I think the examination of knock in is only a paper moon is there

786
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:11.639
is a mild critique of this. at the end where he says, I thought I

787
00:36:11.639 --> 00:36:15.719
could do anything, and, you know, and I throw myself into any

788
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:19.500
dangerous situation, and now I'm really scared, you know.

789
00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:20.099
Yeah.

790
00:36:20.099 --> 00:36:21.179
Yeah.

791
00:36:21.539 --> 00:36:26.519
But it does it by giving us lots of laughs and songs and wonderful

792
00:36:26.519 --> 00:36:27.539
moments, you know?

793
00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:29.280
Yeah, yeah.

794
00:36:29.340 --> 00:36:30.539
That's more fun to watch.

795
00:36:30.840 --> 00:36:34.260
Yeah, I think this is just a little bit miserable.

796
00:36:34.380 --> 00:36:38.039
Well, they lean into this quite a lot, you know, this is real, my

797
00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:44.340
my previous host, Emily, was an expert at this, but somewhere

798
00:36:44.340 --> 00:36:46.260
halfway through the season, they decide, right, she's a fully

799
00:36:46.260 --> 00:36:48.360
formed character now, and she stops doing it.

800
00:36:48.420 --> 00:36:51.360
But for the 1st half of the season, she mentions every single

801
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:51.900
one.

802
00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:54.960
And at one point they're making lots of, oh, which one, which host

803
00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:55.980
was this now, you know?

804
00:36:56.219 --> 00:37:00.659
Yeah, it's funny, I guess, what do you need to do?

805
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:04.739
Because you've got Dax there, and you establish in the 1st episode

806
00:37:04.739 --> 00:37:09.960
through flashback how she got to be Dax and stopped being Curzon

807
00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:14.579
because we need that for when he meets when she meets Cisco for

808
00:37:14.579 --> 00:37:15.239
the 1st time.

809
00:37:15.300 --> 00:37:16.739
And so we get to see that.

810
00:37:16.860 --> 00:37:20.579
But basically it's not an important part of her except for the odd

811
00:37:20.579 --> 00:37:24.599
episode because it's just how she is. until they go, we haven't

812
00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:25.800
done a true episode for a while.

813
00:37:25.860 --> 00:37:26.579
Yeah.

814
00:37:26.579 --> 00:37:31.079
We've, he's a magical theme where...

815
00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:34.139
All of your hosts can be inside your friends, you know?

816
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:34.860
Yeah, that's true.

817
00:37:34.860 --> 00:37:36.659
Here's a lover from the past.

818
00:37:36.780 --> 00:37:38.340
It just happens to be a woman.

819
00:37:38.460 --> 00:37:42.900
And the mysterious one that we never talk about who turned out to

820
00:37:42.900 --> 00:37:43.800
be a serial killer.

821
00:37:43.860 --> 00:37:44.940
I love that.

822
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:47.699
You know, when he when he comes along in...

823
00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:48.960
Oh, it's his season, isn't it?

824
00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:49.260
Yeah.

825
00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:53.760
When he comes along and they do a procedural and he's melodramatic

826
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:54.599
as hell, honestly.

827
00:37:54.659 --> 00:37:55.500
He's crazy.

828
00:37:55.559 --> 00:37:57.900
That's a different girandex though, isn't it?

829
00:37:58.019 --> 00:37:58.380
That guy.

830
00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:00.119
It's not the same guy as before.

831
00:38:00.179 --> 00:38:03.119
See, that's another dark episode, but it's campus hell.

832
00:38:03.179 --> 00:38:04.199
So it's much more fun.

833
00:38:04.260 --> 00:38:05.219
Yeah, yeah.

834
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:10.380
Yeah, God, this set doesn't look really good on the through the

835
00:38:10.380 --> 00:38:12.239
binocular binoculars, does it?

836
00:38:12.300 --> 00:38:14.639
It's completely...

837
00:38:14.699 --> 00:38:17.519
Oh, just reference from the young ones.

838
00:38:17.880 --> 00:38:24.059
I do think I do think Nog Scream in a minute is really horrific.

839
00:38:24.119 --> 00:38:25.019
Yeah, yeah.

840
00:38:25.019 --> 00:38:27.119
They, and they, and they suddenly cut it off.

841
00:38:27.179 --> 00:38:28.739
Don't they, into silence?

842
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:33.840
You know, another thing that I think is super successful about

843
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:36.360
this production is the music?

844
00:38:36.420 --> 00:38:37.920
Oh, yeah.

845
00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:39.659
I think the music is really good.

846
00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:41.699
But it's Joe Chataway.

847
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:42.780
They go for quite.

848
00:38:42.900 --> 00:38:43.199
No, no.

849
00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:45.420
It's Paul Burgillion, isn't it?

850
00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:45.840
Is it?

851
00:38:45.900 --> 00:38:46.559
Oh, okay.

852
00:38:46.739 --> 00:38:49.320
I would just assume if it's good, it's J.

853
00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:49.920
Chataway.

854
00:38:49.980 --> 00:38:51.960
No, no, it's a fresh composer.

855
00:38:52.019 --> 00:38:53.099
I only did a couple of episodes.

856
00:38:53.699 --> 00:38:58.260
And I think they've deliberately wanted quite a pretty sounding

857
00:38:58.260 --> 00:39:01.199
score to be quite discordant against the violence.

858
00:39:01.260 --> 00:39:03.599
There goes Nog's leg, by the way.

859
00:39:03.659 --> 00:39:05.219
But yes, that's exactly what they're doing.

860
00:39:06.119 --> 00:39:08.219
There goes his leg.

861
00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:09.539
Yeah there it goes.

862
00:39:09.599 --> 00:39:10.440
It'll be back.

863
00:39:10.500 --> 00:39:12.179
And see, even that's a thing.

864
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:14.340
It's kind of like how he's blowing off his leg, but we know that

865
00:39:14.340 --> 00:39:18.239
in the future, he'll just have another leg and everything will be

866
00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:18.599
all right.

867
00:39:18.659 --> 00:39:23.219
But to their credit, they give a whole episode over to that.

868
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:24.119
Yeah.

869
00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:28.679
No, no, like O'Brien in hard time, who's had this entire lifetime

870
00:39:28.679 --> 00:39:30.239
of prison experiences in his head.

871
00:39:30.300 --> 00:39:31.679
We never go again.

872
00:39:31.739 --> 00:39:33.659
Well, you know, you're going to have to deal with this for the

873
00:39:33.659 --> 00:39:34.260
rest of your life.

874
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:35.880
Yeah, never mentioned again.

875
00:39:35.940 --> 00:39:37.559
That's right.

876
00:39:37.860 --> 00:39:40.500
So props for consequences.

877
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:41.940
On DS5.

878
00:39:42.059 --> 00:39:46.860
You see, even that where the kid did all right, it's kind of like

879
00:39:46.860 --> 00:39:48.000
fuck, like what?

880
00:39:48.059 --> 00:39:51.840
Because he's supposed to just get his leg blown off in order to

881
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:55.079
protect the Christmas tree and we're just not even going to

882
00:39:55.079 --> 00:39:56.280
critique that in any way?

883
00:39:56.340 --> 00:40:00.780
Like, well, you know, people are dead for the for the Christmas

884
00:40:00.780 --> 00:40:02.280
tree, you know.

885
00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:07.380
I just kind of wish Cork had the some kind of upper hand at the

886
00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:08.460
end of this.

887
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:11.579
Because he says to Cork now, you know, how dare you say this to

888
00:40:11.579 --> 00:40:11.760
me?

889
00:40:11.820 --> 00:40:14.099
I care about everyone under my command, every single one.

890
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:15.900
I sort of shuts him up.

891
00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:17.460
But he's quite violent with him, you know?

892
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:18.719
I don't know.

893
00:40:18.780 --> 00:40:23.219
I just want Cork to have a remark or something to bring in.

894
00:40:23.340 --> 00:40:23.760
It never happens.

895
00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:27.900
I actually thought that it was a bit ugly also making him kill

896
00:40:27.900 --> 00:40:28.440
that guy.

897
00:40:28.500 --> 00:40:32.519
I just sort of think it was kind of like you've taken a pacifist

898
00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:37.019
position or episode and we're we the writers are going to show you

899
00:40:37.019 --> 00:40:38.460
how wrong you are.

900
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:40.679
I didn't get that reading though.

901
00:40:40.739 --> 00:40:43.739
You know, and I'm and Shimmerman said he doesn't want Cork to be

902
00:40:43.739 --> 00:40:47.820
violent and he would only let it happen.

903
00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:48.360
Yeah.

904
00:40:48.420 --> 00:40:49.019
Yeah.

905
00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:54.300
But I still kind of think that, you know, he's the one who said we

906
00:40:54.300 --> 00:40:58.679
wouldn't be killing one another, we would be negotiating, but he's

907
00:40:58.679 --> 00:41:03.900
put in a position where he has to kill someone to protect Nog.

908
00:41:03.960 --> 00:41:07.380
And so it's like, huh, so even you're going to kill someone, you

909
00:41:07.380 --> 00:41:10.860
hippie freak, you know, like I just, I thought there was a

910
00:41:10.860 --> 00:41:11.880
nastiness to it.

911
00:41:11.940 --> 00:41:14.460
Oh, look at the leg, look at the leg.

912
00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:15.780
This is so funny.

913
00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:17.280
Jesus fucking Christ.

914
00:41:17.340 --> 00:41:18.780
Talk about PG.

915
00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:19.380
Have a look.

916
00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:21.599
And he's going, oh, it doesn't really hurt.

917
00:41:21.659 --> 00:41:22.260
It's fine.

918
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:25.980
I'm like on heaps of drugs and it's the future and no one cares.

919
00:41:26.039 --> 00:41:27.239
You know, like he's not even sweating.

920
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:28.260
It's all a choice thing.

921
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:30.719
I know it's miserable.

922
00:41:30.780 --> 00:41:31.739
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

923
00:41:31.739 --> 00:41:33.239
That full of choice into him.

924
00:41:33.300 --> 00:41:34.920
Oh, it's awful.

925
00:41:34.980 --> 00:41:36.059
Honestly.

926
00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:41.400
I mean, I do feel this point is made even more scathingly

927
00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:45.420
invaliant with a bunch of cadets that all get murdered at the end

928
00:41:45.420 --> 00:41:47.099
going, yeah, we could do anything.

929
00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:47.940
Yeah, this.

930
00:41:47.940 --> 00:41:49.440
You just followed orders.

931
00:41:49.500 --> 00:41:51.900
You did what you were, you know, trained to do.

932
00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:53.820
I'm proud of you. you know, well done.

933
00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:55.079
You lost your leg, there.

934
00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:56.519
Jesus Christ.

935
00:41:56.940 --> 00:42:00.000
Like, if he wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

936
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:04.199
If he is an indoctrinated Starfleet officer now, as his commanding

937
00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:05.519
offer to say, I'm proud of you.

938
00:42:05.579 --> 00:42:09.840
I suppose that is trying to soften the blow a little bit.

939
00:42:09.900 --> 00:42:15.659
But you can see how it valorizes their behaviour.

940
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:20.219
It says we're doing the right thing by doing this and you did the

941
00:42:20.219 --> 00:42:24.059
right thing by obeying my orders when I said to go and kill those

942
00:42:24.059 --> 00:42:26.460
people in order to protect the Christmas tree.

943
00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:32.460
And so I just think that these things muddy the waters a bit and

944
00:42:32.460 --> 00:42:36.719
we end up not coming away, I think, with a very clear anti-war

945
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:37.500
message.

946
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:40.920
And like I said, maybe that's a deliberate aesthetic choice.

947
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:43.260
They just want to raise the questions and that's a legitimate

948
00:42:43.260 --> 00:42:44.820
thing that they could choose to do.

949
00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:48.659
But I think it might be a bit of a problem.

950
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:51.539
I mean, props props to them for going there.

951
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:54.659
Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. you know, and we're having a

952
00:42:54.659 --> 00:42:55.500
discussion about it now.

953
00:42:55.559 --> 00:42:57.300
So that's right.

954
00:42:57.360 --> 00:42:57.840
That's right.

955
00:42:57.900 --> 00:42:59.639
And even the music in a way does that.

956
00:42:59.699 --> 00:43:04.619
It's like this sort of incredible kind of, it's, it's beautiful, uh

957
00:43:04.619 --> 00:43:08.519
but it's sort of stirring and patriotic as if we're watching a

958
00:43:08.519 --> 00:43:12.900
glorious thing happen, you know, despite all the explosions and

959
00:43:12.900 --> 00:43:14.280
the people dying.

960
00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:16.199
You know, this is documentary footage from the future.

961
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:21.599
All the little death stars blinking into existence here.

962
00:43:21.659 --> 00:43:24.420
Oh, I do like these, though.

963
00:43:24.420 --> 00:43:27.420
I feel like they should have taken these bombs and used them again

964
00:43:27.420 --> 00:43:29.159
in later episodes.

965
00:43:29.219 --> 00:43:30.599
Yeah, they are cute.

966
00:43:30.659 --> 00:43:33.000
And that's completely computer generated, are they?

967
00:43:33.059 --> 00:43:35.340
There is another part of this production that we haven't talked

968
00:43:35.340 --> 00:43:36.840
about, and that is the sound effects.

969
00:43:36.900 --> 00:43:41.280
And I think there's a lot of, because the screams sort of coming

970
00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:43.920
over the distance at the end are really chilling.

971
00:43:43.980 --> 00:43:50.039
These Houdini minds sort of have this awful... sort of growling

972
00:43:50.039 --> 00:43:50.820
home.

973
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:51.360
Yeah.

974
00:43:51.960 --> 00:44:00.119
Now, can we just mention the cephalic veins running down Reese's

975
00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:02.460
biceps or is no one else noticing that?

976
00:44:02.519 --> 00:44:05.280
Yeah, well anything to make it a bit more enjoyable?

977
00:44:05.340 --> 00:44:07.139
He is feared, isn't he?

978
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:11.820
I just imagining this exposition scene taking place on discovery

979
00:44:11.820 --> 00:44:16.019
with sort of giant, holographic, like transparent, spinning

980
00:44:16.019 --> 00:44:21.239
holographic maps of the terrain, kind of sweet interview and

981
00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:22.800
experience.

982
00:44:22.860 --> 00:44:24.360
Yeah, that's right.

983
00:44:24.539 --> 00:44:27.420
We've run out of holographic stuff.

984
00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:29.760
Yeah, we are.

985
00:44:29.820 --> 00:44:34.199
Later on in the season, um, talking about that violent approach.

986
00:44:34.260 --> 00:44:40.019
Obviously, Kira goes to Cardassia and basically it's like pro

987
00:44:40.019 --> 00:44:41.880
terrorism at the end of the season.

988
00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:44.820
Because they're basically saying the only way we can bring them

989
00:44:44.820 --> 00:44:47.579
down is to kill a lot of them and this is how we're going to do

990
00:44:47.579 --> 00:44:47.760
it.

991
00:44:47.820 --> 00:44:51.239
And I'm not sure the series ever critiques that either.

992
00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:57.960
Well, do you remember in Battlestar Galactica on New Caprica, where

993
00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:02.699
it seems that the terrorism they're doing is the right thing to

994
00:45:02.699 --> 00:45:03.420
do.

995
00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:05.340
Like, it's what they ought to be doing.

996
00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:07.139
And I think that's so good.

997
00:45:07.139 --> 00:45:07.920
Like, it's...

998
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:10.260
That's the beginning of series 3, whether on the planet, isn't

999
00:45:10.260 --> 00:45:10.380
it?

1000
00:45:10.440 --> 00:45:13.320
And do you remember that after that, they follow that up with the

1001
00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:14.280
collaborators?

1002
00:45:14.340 --> 00:45:19.260
There's like a car bowl that are bringing in all the collaborators

1003
00:45:19.260 --> 00:45:20.159
and murdering them.

1004
00:45:20.219 --> 00:45:21.659
Oh, man.

1005
00:45:21.719 --> 00:45:23.460
It's so good.

1006
00:45:23.579 --> 00:45:25.500
That's too much for Star Trek, isn't it?

1007
00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:26.940
You can't quite go that far.

1008
00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:28.619
I mean, Star Trek can barely do this.

1009
00:45:28.679 --> 00:45:30.300
I think it can't do this.

1010
00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:33.119
I think it doesn't pull it off successfully, but I do think that

1011
00:45:33.119 --> 00:45:37.139
Battlestar Galactica, which is another space battles show just

1012
00:45:37.139 --> 00:45:41.519
seems to have the weight to allow it to do this sort of thing

1013
00:45:41.519 --> 00:45:42.300
successfully.

1014
00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:47.579
No real necessary to be optimistic in Battlestar Galactica.

1015
00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:49.500
It could be incredibly dark.

1016
00:45:49.739 --> 00:45:53.880
Whereas this almost, and you know, there are people that will say

1017
00:45:53.880 --> 00:45:57.239
this is a complete betrayal of what Star Trek should be doing.

1018
00:45:58.260 --> 00:46:03.539
Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I think I agree with you.

1019
00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:05.880
It's interesting to see them do something else.

1020
00:46:05.940 --> 00:46:10.619
And if they're going to talk about a war, they probably ought to

1021
00:46:10.619 --> 00:46:14.880
show us what it's really like rather than, you know, it just being

1022
00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:17.460
a computer game that they're all playing from the comfort of the

1023
00:46:17.460 --> 00:46:18.119
standing sets.

1024
00:46:18.179 --> 00:46:21.360
They do do a bit of that, you know, when they have the blobs on

1025
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:24.900
the screen, attacking each other, because they can't afford ACGI

1026
00:46:24.900 --> 00:46:25.380
modern work.

1027
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:26.460
Yeah.

1028
00:46:26.519 --> 00:46:30.480
Oh, he's, I think, you said it does well.

1029
00:46:30.539 --> 00:46:32.519
I think they are sort of halfway there here.

1030
00:46:32.579 --> 00:46:33.300
Yeah.

1031
00:46:33.300 --> 00:46:35.880
But you're right.

1032
00:46:35.940 --> 00:46:37.920
They can't take it as far as they need to go.

1033
00:46:37.980 --> 00:46:40.440
They can't be as sort of visceral as it needs to be.

1034
00:46:40.500 --> 00:46:42.119
Yeah, yeah.

1035
00:46:42.179 --> 00:46:43.739
But then you did see that man.

1036
00:46:43.800 --> 00:46:47.280
You saw that man in all about to the stronger ideas, guts spilling

1037
00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:49.559
out all over the place. and you didn't lie.

1038
00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:52.619
No, but it's not because of that.

1039
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:56.940
Again, I think that it can't pop, it can't properly sell it.

1040
00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:00.000
And I just don't think there's any pleasure to be had by putting

1041
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.880
Jake in that situation where he fails.

1042
00:47:02.940 --> 00:47:05.760
And again, there's a cheesiness as well.

1043
00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:08.699
You know, all of that conversation that the doctors, the field

1044
00:47:08.699 --> 00:47:14.039
medics have is just so fucking cheesy and cliche.

1045
00:47:14.099 --> 00:47:15.719
It's like love that episode.

1046
00:47:15.780 --> 00:47:21.840
They've wandered into a much worse television show and a joke.

1047
00:47:21.900 --> 00:47:24.480
It's space, space mash, isn't it?

1048
00:47:24.539 --> 00:47:25.980
That's right.

1049
00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:29.159
Oh here we go.

1050
00:47:29.219 --> 00:47:29.760
Here we go.

1051
00:47:29.820 --> 00:47:30.900
We're going into the fight now.

1052
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:34.079
Vic Fontaine's serenading them all into the conflict.

1053
00:47:34.199 --> 00:47:37.619
I like the flashes in the background, like the flashes against the

1054
00:47:37.619 --> 00:47:41.760
sky, the fake painted sky, I think is really good.

1055
00:47:41.820 --> 00:47:42.480
They look great.

1056
00:47:42.539 --> 00:47:45.420
And I think I think this is done really well because it goes very

1057
00:47:45.420 --> 00:47:48.360
quiet and then the guy goes, oh, maybe they're not coming.

1058
00:47:48.420 --> 00:47:49.380
Maybe we got them all.

1059
00:47:49.500 --> 00:47:52.860
And then you just hear the screams coming closer and closer and

1060
00:47:52.860 --> 00:47:53.219
closer.

1061
00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:54.960
In terms of suspense.

1062
00:47:55.019 --> 00:47:56.519
I think it's well done.

1063
00:47:56.579 --> 00:47:59.940
Well, except that we know that they're coming and they'll be a big

1064
00:47:59.940 --> 00:48:03.420
battle at the end and none of the regulars will die and probably

1065
00:48:03.420 --> 00:48:06.179
everyone else will, you know, Star Trek.

1066
00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:07.739
Cynic, Nathan both away.

1067
00:48:08.099 --> 00:48:12.780
There is a moment which I think is actually pretty good, and that

1068
00:48:12.780 --> 00:48:20.639
is where Cisco blacks out and then comes to, and the show can't

1069
00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:22.739
have, it can't kill Cisco.

1070
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:24.239
It can't kill any of the regulars.

1071
00:48:24.300 --> 00:48:31.139
But what it does is it gets us to see and gets us to imagine a

1072
00:48:31.139 --> 00:48:36.599
version of events where he does die because he blacks out and we

1073
00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:40.139
don't quite know why he comes to, and neither does he, apparently.

1074
00:48:40.199 --> 00:48:42.659
And I don't think it's addressed in dialogue.

1075
00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:45.059
And I think that's good.

1076
00:48:45.119 --> 00:48:49.559
Like that's as near as we can possibly get to a regular dying.

1077
00:48:49.619 --> 00:48:52.739
Yeah, I mean, I think all of this, though.

1078
00:48:52.800 --> 00:48:57.059
Or like I've got gone about how chaotic it is, but it is just like

1079
00:48:57.059 --> 00:49:01.500
to one fight set piece to another to another, to another.

1080
00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:03.239
It's really, really crazy.

1081
00:49:03.300 --> 00:49:05.579
And the lighting's great because it's so dark.

1082
00:49:05.639 --> 00:49:07.619
So we're kind of getting flashes of the conflict.

1083
00:49:07.980 --> 00:49:11.280
If you're going to sort of show war as hell in an action

1084
00:49:11.280 --> 00:49:11.820
sequence.

1085
00:49:11.880 --> 00:49:14.400
I think this is probably as good as it's going to get in 90s

1086
00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:14.579
right?

1087
00:49:14.639 --> 00:49:16.619
Yeah, yeah, I think you're probably right.

1088
00:49:16.679 --> 00:49:21.179
But again, you know, like, like, look at Billy Mummy with, or Asri

1089
00:49:21.179 --> 00:49:25.980
with that fucking laser phaser rifle, they're so terrible, those

1090
00:49:25.980 --> 00:49:26.460
guns.

1091
00:49:26.820 --> 00:49:29.699
You know, we've commented on...

1092
00:49:29.699 --> 00:49:31.500
You're in the 1st series, TNG ones.

1093
00:49:31.500 --> 00:49:32.940
Oh, yeah, the Dustbusters.

1094
00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:36.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah. which they do kind of redesign.

1095
00:49:36.599 --> 00:49:40.079
Excuse me, can I just say, I'm assume, with a look.

1096
00:49:40.199 --> 00:49:41.820
I mean, he's so good.

1097
00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:42.780
Yeah, that was that.

1098
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:46.440
He hasn't got a fucking say a word. prick.

1099
00:49:46.500 --> 00:49:47.579
Got a knife in the back.

1100
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:51.179
I hope he got stabbed with the other guy's knife.

1101
00:49:51.300 --> 00:49:54.480
There's, um, there's Reese of them, I can't remember.

1102
00:49:54.539 --> 00:49:58.199
They say that the Gem'adar weapons have an anti-coagulant, don't

1103
00:49:58.199 --> 00:49:58.320
they?

1104
00:49:58.380 --> 00:50:00.239
So that's pretty horrible, isn't it?

1105
00:50:00.300 --> 00:50:01.500
mean, you can't stop bleeding.

1106
00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:03.179
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1107
00:50:03.239 --> 00:50:05.280
But I mean, in essence, it's word peril.

1108
00:50:05.340 --> 00:50:07.920
We don't see people bleeding out as a result, do we?

1109
00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:12.599
There is an episode in series 5 where someone bleeds to death very

1110
00:50:12.599 --> 00:50:12.960
slowly.

1111
00:50:13.019 --> 00:50:14.039
Right.

1112
00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:19.980
But what I like is that they have recoil and they seem to have

1113
00:50:19.980 --> 00:50:23.519
weight and they make a really metallic thing and they shoot

1114
00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:24.480
bullety things.

1115
00:50:24.539 --> 00:50:26.820
It's not just firing laser beams at people.

1116
00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:29.219
Like they're more like real weapons.

1117
00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:30.780
And so I think they're better.

1118
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:35.280
Oh, in terms of like muscular villains, the Jemadar up there

1119
00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:35.820
aren't they?

1120
00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:36.360
Yeah.

1121
00:50:36.420 --> 00:50:38.760
In terms of like being a physical threat.

1122
00:50:38.820 --> 00:50:40.440
Because very often.

1123
00:50:40.500 --> 00:50:45.659
Yeah, but because they're all sort of, you know, grown in a test

1124
00:50:45.659 --> 00:50:49.320
tube and addicted to crystal meth, we don't really care about.

1125
00:50:49.500 --> 00:50:53.340
Like, it's just like, oh, yeah, well, I think those are

1126
00:50:53.340 --> 00:50:54.059
interesting quirks.

1127
00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:57.239
I like and they explore all of that really well as well.

1128
00:50:57.300 --> 00:50:58.559
No, I agree.

1129
00:50:58.619 --> 00:50:59.099
I agree.

1130
00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:01.559
And there are certainly episodes where we're encouraged to

1131
00:51:01.559 --> 00:51:02.519
sympathise with them.

1132
00:51:03.539 --> 00:51:05.940
Otherwise, we'd just be saying, well, they're just faceless grunts

1133
00:51:05.940 --> 00:51:06.360
you know.

1134
00:51:06.420 --> 00:51:06.960
Yeah.

1135
00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:09.119
Well, that's what they are here, essentially.

1136
00:51:09.179 --> 00:51:10.139
Yeah, they don't matter.

1137
00:51:10.199 --> 00:51:10.920
Yeah.

1138
00:51:11.039 --> 00:51:13.980
Yeah, they're just gonna kill us unless we kill them.

1139
00:51:14.219 --> 00:51:16.800
Oh, well, we saved the array.

1140
00:51:16.860 --> 00:51:17.400
Happy days.

1141
00:51:17.460 --> 00:51:21.059
Yes, it's nearly Christmas as well.

1142
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:21.659
So.

1143
00:51:21.960 --> 00:51:23.940
Yeah, do you know what?

1144
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:26.639
Maybe, I mean, they'd never be bold enough to do it.

1145
00:51:26.699 --> 00:51:29.940
Maybe if they'd we'd lost a regular here.

1146
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:31.920
This would impact a bit more.

1147
00:51:31.980 --> 00:51:32.880
Yeah, but they just couldn't do it.

1148
00:51:32.940 --> 00:51:33.360
That's it.

1149
00:51:33.420 --> 00:51:35.579
The problem is the show is serialised.

1150
00:51:35.639 --> 00:51:38.400
Everyone needs to be in it and everyone needs to be back to the

1151
00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:40.079
status quo ante at the end of the episode.

1152
00:51:40.139 --> 00:51:42.059
We just lost one of the regulars.

1153
00:51:42.119 --> 00:51:44.639
Why couldn't she just hung around for a couple more episodes and

1154
00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:45.840
then we took out that?

1155
00:51:45.900 --> 00:51:46.800
No, they couldn't.

1156
00:51:46.860 --> 00:51:47.460
That's miserable.

1157
00:51:47.639 --> 00:51:50.940
Well, it's pretty miserable when she does die here.

1158
00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:55.079
But it is a kind of giant ludicrous space opera death, you know

1159
00:51:55.079 --> 00:51:58.800
like it's not she gets shot by someone with a big fucking gun.

1160
00:51:58.860 --> 00:52:01.980
You know, like that's...

1161
00:52:04.920 --> 00:52:06.480
Awesome.

1162
00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:10.320
This is what I think you can get behind.

1163
00:52:10.380 --> 00:52:11.820
Is it pure melodrama?

1164
00:52:11.880 --> 00:52:13.079
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1165
00:52:13.139 --> 00:52:13.800
Exactly, exactly.

1166
00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:19.679
I've just reminded myself why I love this soap opera approach.

1167
00:52:19.739 --> 00:52:20.699
Yeah, exactly.

1168
00:52:20.760 --> 00:52:21.840
That's what I'm here.

1169
00:52:21.900 --> 00:52:24.659
That's exactly what I want is soap opera.

1170
00:52:24.780 --> 00:52:26.159
And there's, yeah.

1171
00:52:26.219 --> 00:52:30.000
Do you know, this, this probably would have benefitted massively

1172
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:34.139
from that sort of documentary style camera work they do in bad

1173
00:52:34.139 --> 00:52:35.519
style, but there's a, yeah.

1174
00:52:35.579 --> 00:52:37.440
There's like an immediacy to it, isn't there?

1175
00:52:37.500 --> 00:52:37.920
Yeah.

1176
00:52:37.980 --> 00:52:43.199
See, that scene there is trying to do something, but does it?

1177
00:52:43.260 --> 00:52:47.280
You know, it's kind of like it was a worthy victory, you know

1178
00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:48.059
worthy of song.

1179
00:52:48.059 --> 00:52:52.500
And normally wharf is wrong. like we've said that before.

1180
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:58.380
And Cisco replies with it, cost enough, but like what?

1181
00:52:58.440 --> 00:52:59.699
Do you know what I mean?

1182
00:52:59.760 --> 00:53:00.179
Like what?

1183
00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:03.300
I just don't know what we're saying here.

1184
00:53:03.420 --> 00:53:05.579
It's really, really unclear.

1185
00:53:06.539 --> 00:53:08.940
The way he says, let's go there.

1186
00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:12.179
It's like they've done the initiation of ceremony where now we're

1187
00:53:12.179 --> 00:53:12.539
men.

1188
00:53:12.599 --> 00:53:13.139
Let's go.

1189
00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:16.139
You know, now we're going to go and these kids are going to stay

1190
00:53:16.139 --> 00:53:18.780
here and starve and two-thirds of them are going to be killed.

1191
00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:20.340
This ain't fucking boot camp, you know?

1192
00:53:21.059 --> 00:53:25.920
So long as the tree is still up by Christmas, they've...

1193
00:53:25.980 --> 00:53:30.719
I would like you to note that the surface there is reflecting the

1194
00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:32.340
lights off the console.

1195
00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:34.559
He's very slightly reflective.

1196
00:53:34.619 --> 00:53:38.280
I just saw the full light for that. full console in there then.

1197
00:53:38.340 --> 00:53:39.059
Thank you very much.

1198
00:53:39.119 --> 00:53:43.199
I will put this out every time. shittest laptop, doesn't it?

1199
00:53:43.260 --> 00:53:45.179
It's like a huge fat Dell.

1200
00:53:45.239 --> 00:53:46.800
It's so nice.

1201
00:53:46.920 --> 00:53:48.599
It's it's none of this.

1202
00:53:48.659 --> 00:53:51.420
And suddenly all is all right with the world.

1203
00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:52.739
Yep, yep.

1204
00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:57.179
And her contractual obligations have been met for the episode.

1205
00:53:57.239 --> 00:53:58.500
She learns a valuable lesson.

1206
00:53:58.559 --> 00:54:00.000
You know what the episode is?

1207
00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:03.900
Between the 2 war episodes here.

1208
00:54:03.960 --> 00:54:08.159
It's covenant where she goes off to Npok Noor with Dukat, and he's

1209
00:54:08.159 --> 00:54:13.440
got that evil group of religious, you know, his own religious

1210
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:14.519
cult.

1211
00:54:14.579 --> 00:54:15.539
Man, it's amazing.

1212
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:16.980
This seems to get real terrific.

1213
00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:19.320
That's why were we watching that?

1214
00:54:19.380 --> 00:54:24.599
And Ducat's got like the, he holds the baby up and it's a half

1215
00:54:24.599 --> 00:54:27.900
Cardassian baby, so he's been fucking half the religious nuts.

1216
00:54:27.960 --> 00:54:28.980
Oh, of course he does.

1217
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:30.239
It's like, it's a miracle.

1218
00:54:30.300 --> 00:54:34.260
The baby has got a Cardassian face.

1219
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:37.440
It's a lot more fun than this.

1220
00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:41.039
Well, okay, I've got a question for you then as we out that

1221
00:54:41.039 --> 00:54:41.400
episode.

1222
00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:47.460
Well, you know, I've said, I think this is pretty good. with some

1223
00:54:47.460 --> 00:54:47.940
problems.

1224
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:49.980
You've said it's appallingly terrible.

1225
00:54:50.579 --> 00:54:53.039
Why do people rate this then?

1226
00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:57.719
I think because it does something that Star Trek doesn't normally

1227
00:54:57.719 --> 00:54:59.940
do. and I think that's a good thing.

1228
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:04.139
They're right to rate it for those reasons, but I also think that

1229
00:55:04.139 --> 00:55:07.500
there are people who want Star Trek to be properly serious.

1230
00:55:07.619 --> 00:55:12.960
And so this is properly serious because it's got guns and fighting

1231
00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:13.739
and stuff.

1232
00:55:13.739 --> 00:55:19.079
And I really meant it when I said that I thought that the scene

1233
00:55:19.079 --> 00:55:23.099
with Rome at the beginning was the best scene of the episode.

1234
00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:28.500
Um, Because I don't think Star Trek is serious.

1235
00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:36.119
I think Star Trek is ridiculous and marvellous and, you know, like

1236
00:55:36.119 --> 00:55:38.280
just fantastic in all kinds of ways.

1237
00:55:38.340 --> 00:55:43.559
And I think that just doing a kind of B grade PG war movie that

1238
00:55:43.559 --> 00:55:48.300
doesn't really particularly say anything about war that seems to

1239
00:55:48.300 --> 00:55:50.400
be valuable or interesting.

1240
00:55:50.460 --> 00:55:54.119
I think it's a bit of a failure this episode.

1241
00:55:54.239 --> 00:55:55.500
Did you never try then?

1242
00:55:55.559 --> 00:55:55.800
No.

1243
00:55:55.860 --> 00:55:59.460
Like, obviously, you remember the wounded in TNG, it tried to do

1244
00:55:59.460 --> 00:56:01.800
like a trickies on terrorism, didn't it?

1245
00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:04.800
Yeah, it's the same problem.

1246
00:56:04.860 --> 00:56:08.460
It's so sanitised that you're like, it's just making any kind of a

1247
00:56:08.460 --> 00:56:10.920
point, but should they just not try then?

1248
00:56:11.460 --> 00:56:15.539
I think that someone during development should have said, actually

1249
00:56:15.539 --> 00:56:18.960
I don't think we can do this justice in this format because I

1250
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:19.559
think that that.

1251
00:56:19.619 --> 00:56:21.840
And R.A. said, I want to do it anyway.

1252
00:56:21.900 --> 00:56:23.340
I want to try and do this.

1253
00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:24.179
Well, good for him.

1254
00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:24.539
Yeah.

1255
00:56:24.599 --> 00:56:28.500
I think he failed, but, but, you know, it was worth a try.

1256
00:56:28.559 --> 00:56:32.280
Certainly lots of people have enjoyed it over the years.

1257
00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:35.280
So, you know, maybe it was worth doing.

1258
00:56:35.340 --> 00:56:38.760
But I do think it fails basically at what it says out to do.

1259
00:56:38.820 --> 00:56:40.860
Often, there's people out there that think you should be

1260
00:56:40.860 --> 00:56:43.860
institutionalised, saying that take me out of the holiday suite is

1261
00:56:43.860 --> 00:56:45.480
incredible, and this is a failure.

1262
00:56:45.599 --> 00:56:49.199
I'm a very, very perceptive critic.

1263
00:56:49.320 --> 00:56:51.300
I would not disagree.

1264
00:56:55.559 --> 00:56:59.880
All right, it's the end of the episode and it is time for us to

1265
00:56:59.880 --> 00:57:04.920
choose the next thing that we're going to watch, and I think it's

1266
00:57:04.920 --> 00:57:06.239
my turn to press the button.

1267
00:57:06.300 --> 00:57:06.719
Am I right?

1268
00:57:06.780 --> 00:57:09.300
time for you to choose the next thing we're going to watch.

1269
00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:09.780
That's right.

1270
00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:13.860
Are you finally going to exceed to popular demand and just do

1271
00:57:13.860 --> 00:57:15.119
whatever comes up first?

1272
00:57:15.239 --> 00:57:18.119
No, I don't think I'm going to do that.

1273
00:57:18.179 --> 00:57:22.380
So I am going to do something for a very silly reason, which is

1274
00:57:22.380 --> 00:57:26.280
that I spend some time writing code on the website so that it can

1275
00:57:26.280 --> 00:57:30.360
display just 10 episodes at a time of a particular show.

1276
00:57:30.420 --> 00:57:34.019
So if there's 11 episodes of Star Trek, the Next Generation, one

1277
00:57:34.019 --> 00:57:36.659
to 10 will be on one page and 11 will be on another page.

1278
00:57:36.719 --> 00:57:37.619
Okay.

1279
00:57:37.619 --> 00:57:39.840
Yeah, that's absolute triumph.

1280
00:57:39.900 --> 00:57:42.539
But we haven't done 11 episodes of any series yet.

1281
00:57:42.599 --> 00:57:45.480
And so I haven't yet put that code into action.

1282
00:57:45.539 --> 00:57:50.460
And so for that reason, I'm going to choose another episode of

1283
00:57:50.460 --> 00:57:52.199
Star Trek Deep Space 9.

1284
00:57:52.619 --> 00:57:59.699
Also, the other reason for this is that this was so atypical and

1285
00:57:59.699 --> 00:58:05.519
an episode that I didn't really enjoy very much and I would like a

1286
00:58:05.519 --> 00:58:08.880
palate cleanser where I get to watch an episode of Deep Stace 9

1287
00:58:08.880 --> 00:58:12.659
that I can laugh at or with or at least near.

1288
00:58:12.719 --> 00:58:14.519
I'm going to rely on you.

1289
00:58:14.519 --> 00:58:18.719
I mean, I'm not going to say, no, that's not doing an episode.

1290
00:58:18.780 --> 00:58:20.760
Let's not watch Deep Space nine.

1291
00:58:20.820 --> 00:58:21.360
It's terrible.

1292
00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:23.940
Yeah, so that's what we're going to do.

1293
00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:25.980
So I am going to press the button.

1294
00:58:26.340 --> 00:58:34.800
Ooh, and we have season three, episode five, 2nd skin.

1295
00:58:34.980 --> 00:58:37.199
Oh, my word.

1296
00:58:37.260 --> 00:58:38.639
I love 2nd skin.

1297
00:58:38.699 --> 00:58:41.880
This is faces, but for Deep Shace 9, right?

1298
00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:45.000
Well, I was thinking of the Romulan one.

1299
00:58:45.179 --> 00:58:47.099
Yeah, is that call faces?

1300
00:58:47.159 --> 00:58:49.920
No, that's the one where... is split, isn't it?

1301
00:58:49.980 --> 00:58:51.300
It's the face of the enemy.

1302
00:58:52.679 --> 00:58:57.360
That's what you always called that episode is B'lana split.

1303
00:58:58.260 --> 00:59:00.900
Oh, I never bought that before.

1304
00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:03.480
The case of the enemy.

1305
00:59:03.539 --> 00:59:07.800
Second skin, I think it's better than the wrong, uh, face of the

1306
00:59:07.800 --> 00:59:08.159
enemy.

1307
00:59:08.219 --> 00:59:09.000
I think it's better than that.

1308
00:59:09.059 --> 00:59:12.599
None of it's just fantastic, but it's a great Garak episode as

1309
00:59:12.599 --> 00:59:12.780
well.

1310
00:59:13.860 --> 00:59:15.539
What do you think?

1311
00:59:15.659 --> 00:59:20.820
One of the real pleasures, the face of the enemy, is that it's one

1312
00:59:20.820 --> 00:59:25.019
of the episodes where Marina is just absolutely superb and where

1313
00:59:25.019 --> 00:59:28.320
she's not being like the good girl or the cat, you know, Roger

1314
00:59:28.320 --> 00:59:30.179
something to do for once, you know?

1315
00:59:30.239 --> 00:59:30.960
Yeah, yeah.

1316
00:59:31.019 --> 00:59:35.639
And she absolutely kind of beats Carolyn Seymour's character.

1317
00:59:35.639 --> 00:59:37.079
She's brilliant as well.

1318
00:59:37.139 --> 00:59:39.599
I mean, you've got 2 women up against each other.

1319
00:59:39.659 --> 00:59:40.139
That's strong.

1320
00:59:40.260 --> 00:59:40.860
It's great.

1321
00:59:40.980 --> 00:59:41.820
Wow.

1322
00:59:41.880 --> 00:59:44.760
That's not that so...

1323
00:59:44.820 --> 00:59:46.320
But what do you think?

1324
00:59:46.380 --> 00:59:49.440
Um, I think it's one of the best of season three.

1325
00:59:49.500 --> 00:59:51.239
I think I think we should watch it.

1326
00:59:51.300 --> 00:59:53.340
I mean, have some fun with it.

1327
00:59:53.400 --> 00:59:56.099
And it's just brilliantly acted.

1328
00:59:56.699 --> 00:59:59.099
Right, let's do that one then.

1329
01:00:00.840 --> 01:00:02.760
Oh, it's great.

1330
01:00:02.820 --> 01:00:03.780
I really love 2nd skin.

1331
01:00:04.019 --> 01:00:05.579
Would you?

1332
01:00:05.639 --> 01:00:07.440
I like Seeds of H4 558.

1333
01:00:07.619 --> 01:00:08.039
So, yeah.

1334
01:00:17.219 --> 01:00:21.239
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford

1335
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:22.320
and Nathan Bottomley.

1336
01:00:22.380 --> 01:00:25.440
We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find

1337
01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:27.780
links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.

1338
01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:31.619
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Cisrin, and the theme is composed

1339
01:00:31.619 --> 01:00:32.880
by Cameron Lamb.

1340
01:00:32.940 --> 01:00:36.659
This episode was recorded on the 21st of November 2022 and

1341
01:00:36.659 --> 01:00:38.400
released on the 25th of November.

1342
01:00:38.460 --> 01:00:42.420
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Deep Space 9, 2nd Skin.

1343
01:01:02.400 --> 01:01:05.340
I'm not sure what else I can say about this.

1344
01:01:06.659 --> 01:01:10.260
Actually, I thought we were kinder than I thought we were going to

1345
01:01:10.260 --> 01:01:11.219
be, actually. to know.

1346
01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:15.059
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, like, it's still Star Trek.

1347
01:01:15.119 --> 01:01:16.019
I like Star Trek.

1348
01:01:16.079 --> 01:01:17.400
You know, I didn't hate watching it.

1349
01:01:17.460 --> 01:01:20.579
It just is not Star Trek that I like very much at all.

1350
01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:23.639
And I do think that it does try and do some things, but I do think

1351
01:01:23.639 --> 01:01:26.639
that essentially, you know, it was doomed to failure.

1352
01:01:26.699 --> 01:01:31.199
My L Media player has just started playing an adventure in space

1353
01:01:31.199 --> 01:01:31.920
and time.

1354
01:01:31.980 --> 01:01:34.500
Like when that episode finished.

1355
01:01:34.559 --> 01:01:38.400
I had an adventure space and time running on the...

1356
01:01:38.400 --> 01:01:39.539
I went straight on to confident.

1357
01:01:39.960 --> 01:01:45.300
We're serving up a Tilliban froth, whatever that is, but it

1358
01:01:45.300 --> 01:01:46.019
promises a lot.

1359
01:01:46.079 --> 01:01:47.760
Where's the made up space food?

1360
01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:49.320
For fuck's sake.

1361
01:01:49.380 --> 01:01:52.559
No, we've already got war rationally older.

1362
01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:57.239
Well, it's your choice this time. think it is.

1363
01:01:57.539 --> 01:01:59.579
Okay, I've got it.

1364
01:01:59.639 --> 01:02:00.840
Oh, this sounds like a bit liar.

1365
01:02:00.900 --> 01:02:01.440
Come on.

1366
01:02:01.500 --> 01:02:02.519
Or we can laugh at more.

1367
01:02:02.579 --> 01:02:03.719
Okay.

1368
01:02:04.320 --> 01:02:06.960
Turn on Star Trek Project.

1369
01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:10.320
All right, it's the end of the episode.