Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we are back on discovery this week, and we are watching an
episode that is just 2 before a recent discovery that we did.
So this is series four, episode five, I think.
Yes.
We don't do this very often do we?
We tend to, we're going to go in the same season.
We, we, we sort of space them out, but I think, and it is going to
come to a point where we are, you know, doing stuff back to back.
Yeah.
So this is called the examples, which is a very straightforward
kind of Star Trek title.
And it has some elements that lead up to the big kind of mid
season cliffhanger in 2 weeks time.
And while it has a kind of A-plot that gives it its title.
It's about these people who have been imprisoned for political
reasons on an asteroid who the crew has to save.
There's a lot more time, I think, spent on the B plot and the C
plot and all of the other arc plots that are keeping things going
along.
They spell very series 6 of DS9 to me, as in like the, what's it
called?
the DMZ?
Is that what the big space nominated?
DMA?
The DMA.
The thing that's eating up planets and causing a lot of
destruction in the Alf quadrant.
Is it called the Al Quadrant?
Yeah, it is, I think.
And I think we, you know, you have to help me with these Kurtzman
names.
But it felt because this, it's not like a massive part of that
story.
It's sort of a peripheral pile because we're going off to this
planet, but it's just showing how other things are affected by as
you and Dominion more did that and you'd have episodes like Honour
Amongst Fees, which is like the Dominion supplying weapons to
criminal organisations and things like that.
So all these sort of offshoots of the main plot.
And I quite like that because it adds a lot of colour and a bit of
substance and you get to tell sort of standard Star Trek style
episodes within the arc.
I really so I really, really like that.
Um, I've got 2 things I need to say to you.
Number one is I've got to take you to task, young man, because you
promised me a moral dilemma in this episode and there weren't nary
one to be found.
So I guess what I meant was that it was a society that had been
set up deliberately to make a political point.
You know how Star Trek will set up a society, like, I think the
episode that I came up with last time was critical care, where you
are dealing with some kind of political problem.
America is a country that imprisons a massively larger proportion
of its population than nearly any other comparable nation.
And this is a place where, this is a place where people are
imprisoned in order to make a point.
So whatever small crime you commit, you're imprisoned.
And that sounds like a sort of cod, crappy, pretend Star Trek
premise, but it is in fact largely what we get in America anyway
now.
What I was expecting was that these people had done things that
were so heinous, should we save them?
Oh, that's what I was expecting.
And, you know, we've done this sort of prison drama before.
There is an episode of Voyager called repentance in series 7 where
they have to turn the hold into a prison for like serious, you
know, murderers and things like that, um, who need it gets close
to and it's like, you know, they've done wrong, but should they be
treated this way?
And it sort of, I thought that's what this was going to be about.
Whereas how it plays out is these people are actually quite nice
people that are done inoffensive offences.
And with one person there who had committed it, a terrible point
which I thought was quite interesting.
But the other thing I wanted to say was, I think I'm turning a
corner with Star Trek Discovery, 4 seasons in, it's taken a while
and that's the longest, I think, it's taken like any shot.
But there was a confidence to this, even though this is a kind of
a substandard plot.
There was some fantastic character work in this.
And I said exactly that about the episode in 2 episodes of time
that the character work and I think it was even better there.
But there were scenes throughout.
There's a whole subplot with Colba, which I think is
extraordinarily good.
I was really, in fact, so good.
I went back and watched certain scenes again afterwards because
they were so well winning and so well played.
I feel like it's kind of come together at this point.
And the characters and the actors, it's sort of fused and they
know what they're doing.
They know how to play it.
They know how to write it as well.
And I always say about DS9 is it got to a point where the
characters were so well defined.
Stories were practically self-petuating.
And that's what's happening here is, is they can just have, they
they've got a big idea with this DMA and then just opportunity to
present themselves with these very rounded characters.
And that's what's going on.
Yeah, I think, you know, the last episode that we watched was from
season one, and that was vaulting ambition, and that had an arc
plot, and it was the weakest, I thought, of the Mirror Universe
episodes, and it was not, of all of them.
There's a few that are worse in DS 9's run.
Oh yeah, no, no, I just meant, I just meant it, that mirror
universe arc in series one of Discovery.
And the reason was that it just sort of inched along everyone's
plot, but it didn't have an overarching idea.
And I think I detected that they were trying to create an
overarching idea by sort of topping and tailing it with scenes
about who Lawker was, but there was nothing coherent about it.
Whereas here I think, and I think in series 4 generally of
discovery.
What they do is they tell an arc plot.
So you have a big story with a big scale, like the movies, but
each week, something happens that also has a satisfying beginning
middle, and end.
Every episode is unique. like, yeah, you're right.
That was a chapter, that Myriad Universe episode, was a chapter in
a book, whereas this is an individual story.
You always remember this one as the one where they go down to the
prison planet and rescue the people, you know.
And I prefer that approach.
I do too.
I think Star Trek, the episodes to have sort of an individual
identity. with lots of good carrousel going through.
And it was like distinct.
There was a distinct A, B, and C plot, which is another thing that
DS9 would do from time to time.
Yeah, this was really good, I thought.
For something that actually is a bit throwaway.
It had a lot of substance to it.
The other thing that I thought was interesting was that the A-plot
actually feeds into the arc.
So the decision that Michael makes to allow Felix to stay behind
and die creates the rift between her and Bull.
Okay, which is what we explored in the other episode.
That's right.
Well, it's not a rift.
It's our yawning chasm by that point.
Yeah, that's right.
And also we get the 1st team that Zora has emotions and that's
going to be central to the episode in 2 weeks time.
But just like, you know, I'm going to beat this point too much, but
the fact that, you know, I couldn't bear many of these characters
in series one.
I really didn't like Michael Burnham very much.
I did not like Stamets very much.
I didn't even know who Colba was.
I don't think they really gave him much of X-Men.
At this point, I understand who these people are. really like
being around them.
And so if you add a really interesting art plot to these
characters.
It's TV gold.
Yeah, should we watch it?
Yeah, let's.
I mean, this is this is my favourite series of Discovery, and it
might be my favourite series of New Trek, even though I think
Strange 2 World series one was pretty great.
I've watched 2 from this season.
Obviously the 2 we've covered.
I really want to watch all of it now because I've got a feeling
the standard is pretty high and I don't think I've seen the best
either.
No, no, I don't think you have.
I think the 2nd half of it is magnificently well done I think.
And it's proper science fiction in places, which is kind of rare
for Star Trek.
Right, shall we?
I do learn eventually, you know, I've been slacking this show off
for ages, but eventually I'll get there.
So great.
All right.
I'm going to count us in there.
Five, four, three, two, one. and we're off into a CBS Studios
production.
Yeah.
Wait till you see the new Star Trek thing that they have.
Look at this.
Holy crap.
So this is them, this is them coming back.
This is Tilly leaving. and so that must have been last episode I
think.
Yeah.
So Tilly leaves to go and teach at the academy.
And you'd think, you know, a point where Giorgio and Tilly are
both out of the show now that it would suffer a bit.
But actually, you know what you're left with?
I was about to say something very sexist.
Well, you're left with some very sensitive men who have feminine
qualities, like cobra and Stamets and Saru.
They're a bit more sensitive than, you know, Riker and Chikotayan
and Archer.
So look at this.
This is the USS Janeway heading towards the Dark Matter anomaly
which looks like an eye.
Look at that.
It looks like an eye.
It's beautifully done.
And just the fact the camera's moving slightly.
It's not the static locked off shots.
So this is a huge moment in the arc where we discover that it is
made by someone.
It's artificial.
And that's us watching Stamets realise that as well.
And so we go straight into that.
And I love that map that he's standing behind.
You love these hologrammatical displays, don't you?
They're all around them.
Yeah.
And why not?
We can do...
He's generally the best.
I tell you what.
She's just studied enough.
She's such a grumpy asshole though, isn't she?
Yeah, Denobula was there in the map just now.
Well, that's it.
That's 2 references we've had in less than a minute.
There is an incredible Voyager reference, which I'm going to see
if you can spot it.
What in this?
Yep.
No.
Absolutely.
Janeway.
That one.
No, nope, one that's coming.
Do you know what?
Look at this.
People standing around in rooms pontificating.
Oh, you know, I'm there for this.
But look, the camera's moving.
The camera is moving very slightly.
It has calmed down a bit because back when Frakes was in charge.
You had that drone zacking about the room, you know.
Yeah, let's have more frekes.
For God's sake.
Calm down, Jonathan, honestly. an old man now.
And so this is really kind of an interesting twist, isn't it?
Like when it's just a big swirly thing that destroys planets and
we don't know why.
It's mad.
Now that I'm sorry, if it's created, then it's there for a
purpose.
So I think that we are going to find out.
I can't remember where it is.
So where are we?
Are we back on, we're back in Starfleet.
Oh, with Admiral Vance, handsome Advance. honestly.
Yeah, yeah.
I don't know, you know, I think Cronenberg might be the hottest
man on this now because he's so smart.
He's so clear.
You know, I think Mark is set, smart, sexy, and he has the best
scene in this whole episode.
Man, he's good.
It's so crazy to think that David Cronenberg is a semi-regular on
Star Trek.
It's just mental.
But I think as well, I think this setup of the Federation in the
future is really established itself now as well. that and that was
the interesting part of the 1st half of series 3 as they were sort
of exploring this and we're going off to worlds that we know that
are all a bit different because we're in the future.
Whereas now I feel like it's like um, it's a condensed version of
TNG creating the map and then DS9 exploring it.
Well, they created the map in series 3.
Now we're exploring it in series four.
And I actually kind of like the fact that we have a base.
I mean, compare this guy to Bill Watts's face in...
Don't you go on...
Look how much better he is.
Okay.
So, wasn't he?
missed, you just missed the, you just missed the Voyager
reference.
So we're theorising about who's created the DMA, and we rule out
the Metrons, the Naseen, the, and we rule out the queue continuum
and the Iconians and the Naseen.
The race that the caretaker is from.
I did not know that.
Yeah, yeah.
There you go.
So that's a deep dive.
That's a pretty impressive.
Iconians, you know, I love a bit of them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So they're mentioning they're basically mentioning the big
powerful races that could have constructed something this
terrifying.
And do you think the queue have died, like they've disappeared 300
years ago, and oh, you haven't seen all of the card series too?
They're going to happen back.
I promise you, Discovery's out, there'll be a queue episode.
Maybe.
Oh, okay, why?
Is there a twist in Picard that says that they're gone there?
He might be dead.
Okay.
But you know what?
I've got to say, I said this in the other series 4 episode that we
did.
This is pure Star Trek now.
Discovery is gone.
They are they are making Star Trek now.
Yeah, I think the intention was always that they would make Star
Trek, which is why they said it in the era of original Star Trek.
Well, they were making series one then.
Honestly.
Yeah, well, I think that they were making Star Trek eventually
after a few full stars. and their apology tour.
This is so great.
Look at his set.
Books ship is so beautiful.
Why are you looking at the say it when he is in it?
He is a handsome man isn't he?
Yeah.
Does he get his hair off much?
No.
He does have excellent taste in interior decorating though, I
think.
So we're going to work together.
There's a beautiful episode before this, which is about his grief
at losing his entire planet at this point.
So we see Quaishon destroyed by the DMA earlier on.
I love the, I also love the transporter, just that, and they're
there.
You know, had the transporter effect.
Funny looking alien news on the column.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, that's really funny.
And what about Lieutenant Christopher?
Pretty Lieutenant Christopher.
Does he do much?
Oh, okay, he's new now, is he?
Okay.
Well, he's new, and he and Bryce kind of alternate in that in that
role.
No, it doesn't take as long as they did to give Detmer a bit of
character.
Yeah, I think probably it will.
So and again, this is another very, very weird location.
See that shot?
That's like nothing that we've ever seen before.
So it seems to be a group of asteroids joined together with like
big wires or something, and then, and then some kind of, um, you
know, force field keeping the, the thing together, and it's just a
sort of really strange location.
And that's what I want it to do.
I want to be not quite sure what it is I'm seeing here are these
beautiful credits.
We've done it.
We done enough 90s trip lately.
Oh, you know, the visual's not looking strange and fascinating and
wonderful.
So here we are.
I do want to talk about, see how, wait a second, see how discovery
in the opening titles?
The Nacelles don't join onto the ship, because they're detachable
in the future.
Well, they've made lots of little changes from the last time we
saw the credits in series one.
Yeah, yeah.
I do love this animation though.
And I do love the music too.
I wasn't very sure about this title sequence when it 1st came on
might be my favourite.
Hmm.
I do like the...
I like the Strange New World.
Picard one as well.
They do they do a fine pile sequence in...
Actually, I watched some more prodigy the other day.
He has great titles.
Yeah, yeah.
Is that the Gormagander?
I don't know, but it looks like it's trying to eat discovery, which
is rather...
Like the one that's trying to eat the Cerritos.
I know, I always say it, but the way you look for the camera a bit
apologetically.
It was wonderful.
It makes me laugh.
Every time I see it.
Sorry, very quickly.
Look, they're not connected.
I do want to talk about the men in this because I really feel like
we've turned a corner.
There was a time, if you go back sort of 20 years, where all men
in science fiction were basically portrayed a bit butch and
masculine and there to drive the action or have a witty quip.
And even like booking this, a character who looks like book, and I
20 years ago, would have played a very different role, what he's
doing here.
And I really like that.
I really like the men are allowed to be thoughtful and sensitive
and considered.
Yeah, I mean, he's an empath.
He can read the feelings of animals, but he's like literally an
empath.
You know what I'm saying.
You wouldn't have this.
You wouldn't have had this mid 90s.
Well, I don't know, actually.
Cisco.
Maybe I'm wrong.
Yeah, Cisco, I think, well, Cisco can be intimidating.
Oh, boy, can he?
But also, yeah, yeah.
Um Um, I, oh, no, I can't remember where I, where it's going.
I lost it.
Do you know what?
No, he's not on it yet.
You see, that rising scientist that comes on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's a plot on DS9 where do you remember where Bashir's rival
at school is coming on the station and he's really intimidated
about meeting her and I was getting vibes of that in this when
Stammets is like, look, this fella, he won't even talk to me.
Like, you know, I always have to go for his secretary and then he
comes on.
I'm thinking I kept thinking they're going to go down the same
route as that DS9 episode.
He's going to be really nice and they're going to have a great
relationship and he comes on and he's the biggest fucking priest.
Yeah, it's wonderful, isn't it?
So they mentioned Aurelio, who was a Cyrus kind of scientific
advisor in the series 3 episode that we watched, the guy who's in
a who was using a wheelchair.
Oh, yeah.
Do you remember him, the scientist?
And Aurelio gets mentioned a few times here.
He's the one who eventually kind of can't stomach what Asira is
doing anymore.
And I don't know whether you noticed at the end, at the very end
of the episode, we actually see Tarker, who's coming along
touching the back of his neck, and we see the scar on the back of
his neck, which is from the implant that you have when you're sort
of enslaved by the emerald chain.
So we'll get that and that's coming up in the end of the season as
well.
He's got a great arc, I think.
When this 1st started, I figured, um, this pair of culba and
stamets, it was, uh, you know, ticking a box.
I couldn't be more wrong.
Like the things they've done with this relationship.
And in this episode in particular, where we see him, I think it's
now, he's helping him put his clothes on or they go to bed at the
end of the episode and they kind of hug each other and and he's
saying to him, you know, I've been told I need to work less.
And it just feels like conversations that I have with my other
half in bed at the end of the night.
It feels so real.
I love it.
I really think this is this is representation at its best.
Well, and these 2 actors knew each other beforehand.
You know, they're both gay.
No, I'm wrong, actually.
I think that they work really well.
I think this is representation.
I think it's just a really well done relationship on this show.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
They're really good, aren't they?
Yeah.
So the big setup in the A plot reminds me mostly of lessons.
Do you remember that setup?
Where they have to evacuate the planet?
So Wendy, you know, Picard's having an affair with Wendy Hughes
and stuff and they're playing piano in his quarters and stuff, that
sort of crappy piano and then they all have to go down to the
planet and the planet's quite well realised and there's some kind
of fire or something and they have to evacuate a whole heap of
people.
I was getting vibes from that.
I always get vibes from that lower deck episode we watched where
it was just 2 people that lived on the planet.
Do you remember?
That's right.
We're very real.
Bl it up.
So what an arsehole.
It's so funny.
I mean, we all think it, but Saru really does have strange feet
just think that's sort of hilarious.
So this.
I'll tell you what.
I mean, these special effects are fantastic.
I think they're armadillos.
I know they're Beatles, I know.
But I think Armadillo's is more funny.
But when they started coming across the CGI landscape, I'm like
we're in a different ball game now.
But, I mean, this is still just the shitty set that we have in, you
know, Star Trek the Next Generation series one for the planet.
It's just that it's done incredibly well and it looks great.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It feels like an alien planet and not studio 4 at Paramount.
And look, they're giving pretty race something to do, which is
kind of nice.
And he gets to be in shot because we're all just holograms now
which I think is pretty great.
I tell you what I did like was the fact that I, you know, I
thought, oh, we've got our action set PC with the armadillos with
the circular sauce coming out of their backs.
Don't get me wrong, I was sitting there going, man, that is so
cool.
Especially when it's the circular source, stop chewing through
rock and sparks are going everywhere.
But then obviously that is the plot point, isn't it?
Because that's how they get out of the prison at the end of the
episode.
Yeah.
It is there for a reason.
It's not just your Voyager. throw in a bit of action.
Although this is very Star Trek, this conversation, isn't it?
Like where they're talking, they're telling each other things
about their relationship that they clearly absolutely no, all of
that stuff happened.
All that stuff that happened kind of between episodes one and 2 of
last season.
Look, now, I don't, I don't, even though the dialogue is better on
Discover.
I mean, they're above a bit of the old 90s banter, you know.
I actually think Felix's big, heartbreaking, heartbreaking speech
is absolutely one of those Star Trek heartbreaking speeches, but
again, it's just beautifully acted by the guest actor.
Do you not remember in the Serene School where they led into that
that dreadful backstory that she had?
And then she goes, once she's exposed to the villain, she goes, do
you really believe that dreadful backstory I told you?
It was very funny.
Oh, here we go.
Yeah, look at this.
It's a mobile landmine.
So great, isn't it?
So great.
So there's a lot going on, isn't it?
You've got, yeah, you've got the arsehole rising scientist who's
coming along to study the DMA.
You've got...
I guess he's the B plot.
Yep, you've got Colbot who's having a bit of a nervous breakdown
because C plot.
I want to talk about that because he's taking on a lot of what
everybody is feeling about this widdly wobbly space normally that
is absolutely terrifying.
And you've got Burnham and booked down on the planet trying to
release the Brits.
So it's been the A plot, I think.
It's never boring.
It's always... something happening.
There's a lot. yeah there's a lot going on.
And the, like the B plot and the C plot don't resolve themselves
here, or they, although they do kind of come to a conclusion, I
guess you get the thing where Stamets kind of likes and he's on
side with Taka, despite being initially kind of sceptical and
possibly even a bit intimidated.
And look, here he is being an asshole and doing the, like, doing
the bigger up to shut up.
The mashed potatoes.
Because he's just watched close encounters of the 3rd kind.
And the best line is just when he goes, um...
He goes, yeah, I am an asshole and I like being an asshole.
So I'm invested in keeping new people alive because I like being
alive because I'm amazing.
I like me.
I may have paraphrased there a little bit, but you know what I'm
saying.
But my point was about all the content in this episode is all of
this is a bit old hat.
We've had wibbly wobbly space normies before.
We've had prison planets before and we've had people having
nervous breakdowns before.
Yeah.
But I feel the characters are so fresh.
All of this stuff.
It kind of feels new. if it feels it doesn't feel boring.
No, I mean, this is kind of the 3rd season of discovering a row to
have a big space anomaly or various space anomalies.
You know, it's the red lights in series two.
It's the burn in series 3 and now we have the DMA.
I don't think they've done this.
I think the anomalies in Star Trek before this, you know.
Oh, it's quite a new idea.
No.
In fact, this is the 1st season to reuse a title from an earlier
Star Trek. because this also has an episode called Anomaly. like
the Enterprise episode.
But this is a big last anomaly.
And I love awful.
I think that absolutely that episode of Enterprise shows our
differences in what we want. from Star Trek.
Well, because I want Star Trek to be full of exciting, hopeful
people who are inquisitive and and selfless and kind and all of
that.
I like, I just don't want them robbing people or leaving them to
die.
Sequences and being morally compromised.
Yeah, no, that's so boring.
That is subjective, you know. want people to be nice.
Look how nice Michael is.
And book is nice as well. nice.
I'm not nice.
We're looking for ourselves.
I don't think I'm that nice This is so great, isn't it?
Like, yes, of course they have fucking band sauce.
Do you know what it is?
It should be have a line like Galaxy Quest where those chompers
are in the middle of the ship.
And she goes, why are the chompers in the middle of the ship?
Who the fuck wrote this episode?
Well, I mean, it is to keep people in and out of this prison.
And the is the building floating or something?
There's something really weird about it.
Again, it's one of those things where you just kind of can't quite
see, you're not sure what it is you're seeing.
This is where this plot kind of lost me a little bit.
I was like, it's okay. you know, but there's a lot of standing
around with them going, you know, I'm a nice person really.
I think that the thing that this plot does and does well is it
gives a guest actor a really proper solid turn and it contrasts.
Look, so they lock these people up and they lock them up not
necessarily because they deserve it, whatever that means.
They lock them up because they think that it discourages people
from committing crimes.
Okay?
And he's explaining it here.
You know, they're just here for purely political reasons.
Yes, they've committed a crime, but it's for life and they're here
for good.
But in fact, letting Felix out and giving him some agency actually
is the thing that produces a good outcome.
And the good outcome is that he gets to rest after paying for his
crime and he gets to return that tree hologram ball thing to the
young girl whose father, he killed.
And I think it's beautiful.
Like, I think there's something really, just, it was a nice, main
and marvellous about it.
Yeah.
And I think that that's the, I think that that's what this is
saying. you know, locking people up. to for a reason.
Do you know what I mean?
In order to produce a greater good?
That's not the thing, that it's letting this man go, giving him
some agency.
You know, he doesn't solve, he doesn't, you know, that that girl
talks about her father being killed when she was little, but he
makes a decision that doesn't quite make it right, but that at
least means that he can rest in peace and that he's able to make
up to some degree for the loss that she experienced.
I think that's, that's what I think this version of Star Trek does
more than any other, is that it's humane.
And it plays out nicely.
I wouldn't say it's revelatory material in any way. that isn't
going to rock your world. it's nice No, you know?
I found myself quite moved at the end of it, and I think it's
mostly down to that guy's performance.
So here is David Cohen.
Okay, everybody who is watching along with the episode.
Turn us off now and just listen to the dialogue in this.
Jesus.
Oh my God.
Kronenberg is beyond good in this.
Yeah.
We thought so too, into episodes time.
Remember, he's the one who we think is going to call for Zora to
be deactivated, but in fact, he is, like us, interested in Zora
interested in her welfare and was actually prepared to kick
Stamets off the ship rather than deactivate Zora.
And so even though he's brusque and he's an asshole, he is someone
who really genuinely cares.
But that's never Schmaltzy.
He doesn't... for 12nd.
He is as cold as hell.
He is clinical.
He is till the point.
He is reminding him that he's only got 10 minutes and he's 3
minutes in.
And yet what he delivers is a very humane you need to look after
yourself.
If you're going to look after other people, you need to look after
yourself.
And he even delivers that in a kind of a 2 fingers up way.
It's great.
It's wonderful.
So he's one of the 1st people that they meet when they arrive in
the future because he debriefs them and we see him interviewing
Giorgio and things and it's magnificent.
This is the best psychological study from one character to another
since Garak went out to Ezry Dax and said she was pathetic and a
whimpering girl compared to Jud Zia Dax.
I just thought this whole scene was definitely written. and really
maturely played.
Colba.
His performance throughout this is extraordinary.
Yeah.
It's so good, isn't it?
Do you know he gets a bit fiery on Twitter, doesn't he?
Oh, yeah, yeah. very political.
He also takes his shirt off quite a lot and he's very...
I mean, I'm not complaining about that.
But no, he's not he is not afraid of voicing his opinion or
calling people out.
Yeah, yeah, no, I like him a lot.
But he gets angry about this as well, about discovery when people
kind of throw shade in his direction.
And I, I don't think that's such a bad thing either.
I know they sort of discourage that sort of thing, but...
Yeah, yeah.
But I think, you know, like with any fandom, there's, we've got
the problem where if it doesn't centre on wide heterosexual people
they'll be angry in cells, you know, kind of attacking people
about it.
And that's a fandom problem.
That's universal across all of those atoms we...
The woke argument.
Is that in a new trek as well?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, if you're saying that it's too woke because it has gay
people and non-white people in it, well, you can just fuck on.
Stephen I. What's the alternative?
Yeah, that's right.
That's it.
You just all have white people. all the gays.
Anyone from a foreign nationality.
I mean, even even in its time, you know, even though it was sort
of a bit more timid than this, original Star Trek was woke by any
kind of standards with the, you know, woman on the bridge, or
she's the receptionist, but, you know, there's a Russian who's
alongside us serving alongside us and part of our community in the
middle of the Cold War.
Like, you know, it's woke as hell. couldn't be more way.
But is it the fact they're sorry to go down this route, but is it
the fact that television has been so, you know, 2.4 children wiped
for so long now that people are just indoctrinated that that is
acceptable and then being diverse?
is is pandering.
Yeah.
But there are all sorts of stories that we now hear that we
wouldn't have heard before, and that's enriching.
Look at him.
I have a 2 o'clock buy and he's just...
He just sort of leaves him.
And just that really just devastating analysis.
You're doing this because you died.
You have survivor's guilt.
You don't know why it was you and now you're just going to work
yourself into the ground because you feel bad about that.
That absolutely justifies killing him off.
I'm bringing him back.
Yeah, yeah, because it really makes a point.
There's a lot of people dying this season.
I'm told.
I haven't seen any yet, but I've uphold it a lot of people are
dying.
Oh yeah, yeah.
Whole planet.
And he died and came back.
So yeah, naturally he's feeling guilt about that.
But there was a there was a wonderful bit which really struck home
to me because it's something that I can be guilty of a lot, is
where he says, I'm talking to people and I'm offering them hope
and I'm da da, and I'm lying to them. lying.
Because I don't know.
Yeah.
It's really, really good.
Really good.
I just I was sort of nodding along going, I absolutely get where
you're coming from and how you are taking on the guilt and the
fear and the emotions of everybody around you and it's too much
and you need a break.
Hey, guess what?
on holiday this week.
Well, it's funny because he and Paul then in bed later on, kind of
uh, compare notes on being workaholic assholes for one reason or
another.
No, he says true.
No one's...
We've got the same DNA.
Oh, that's great.
So, and look at this.
He actually, does he ever intend to go?
So what Felix is doing here is ensuring that the others are okay
because I don't think Felix ever intends to leave the asteroid.
I mean, I think perhaps there could have been one seriously
horrible criminal in there.
I mean, he is a prisoner.
No, no, Felix murdered someone.
Yeah, murdered the guy. he's a pretty nice guy. you know, you made
a mistake, but...
Yeah, but it was murder.
That's a bad mistake to make Most of us managed not to do it.
He's had his time in prison to reflect.
And now, he's a better person for it.
Yeah.
But he still pays the price.
He's still not forgiven.
He's never allowed to...
What's the name of this horizon scientist?
I keep calling him the rising scientist.
Tarker.
The other thing I love about him is that was Stamitz in series
one.
This is how far we've come. you know?
Yeah, yeah.
He's no longer the most arrogant man in the galaxy.
In fact, damn it's looking across and him going, what the fuck is
this person?
Who is he?
Like, he can barely believe the way he's behaving.
The way he points.
He points to the tattoo on his head and goes, oh, I'm from Rizer
and I was surrounded by idiots.
He's obviously seen Lehi who is without seeing him.
Yes, exactly right.
Captain isology.
Oh yeah.
Every time we go to riser.
I think they do an enterprise as well, you know.
Oh, God.
Yeah, I can't imagine that as well.
Isn't this kind of amazing.
They're all just standing around the set and now that we can
afford to do proper holograms and stuff, just everything that
they're touching and fiddling with holograms, holograms, and
there's big holograms in the middle of the room and that's the
experiment, and...
Just so much more dynamic, doesn't it?
Yeah, standard consoles, touching bits of, you know, coloured
paper.
Maybe this looks cheesy in 20 or 30 years' time, but I think it's
a great look.
How are we going to make it better than this?
I don't know.
They'll find a way somehow.
They will.
It'll literally be coming out the screen at you.
You know?
Your hands are coming out the screen. will be a hologram.
I love to, you know, that Star Trek had holograms in series one
and 2 when we were in the 23rd century, and now that we've come to
the 31st century, What they do is the holograms just look like the
act is in the room and they don't do anything.
Apart from the occasional interference pattern, which seems to be
required once every scene just to remind you that it's a
hologram.
We saw Reese Stewart.
We saw COVID Stewart.
This is so funny.
And this went, it's like some reason actually so perfect.
But then when Saru shouts back at him, they do the thing that they
do to Dr. Flocks, which is that they kind of, you know, do
something weird electronically to make it scarier and more alien.
Just, it's mild mannered Doug Jones.
So we're going to, we're going to augment his shout.
That was something.
She's so great.
So underused.
Let's have more Jet Reno.
Here we go.
You may not like me, but I love me.
I am going to make sure that we don't all get killed, right?
Oh my God, we need more...
Do you know what, though?
When they do arrogant characters, the night is true. unbearable.
They're absolutely...
These fellas quite likeable.
It's got a bit of swagger, you know?
He's got a really great backstory.
There is an episode where there's an alien who is a male alien.
In the end of the, like in the 2nd half of the season, he, he, we
hear his backstory when he's working for the uh, Emerald Chain, and
he falls in love with this guy, um, and we find out how that bears
on what he's doing now.
And it's really, it, like it just makes his thing much weirder and
much more, interesting and much more resonant.
It's super interesting.
I really like it.
And it's a good episode too.
Here we go, now, back to the prison planet.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, the title is explained, the examples.
Yes.
Well, he does rather tell you a thing you need to know about this
plot, doesn't he?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But I think, you know, yeah, this is probably the slowest beard.
But well, I like the bit where he was going, look, I, you know, we
want immunity.
Otherwise, we ain't coming and we'll just stay here and die.
Like, yeah, but that's what he's going to do anyway.
So he is just making sure that the other 3 are okay.
And you know what?
It's great.
I'll say it is a fantastic say it is well lit and they've even
shoved in like a load of dust or something.
So the light picks out.
I mean, it's just that sort of detail you're thinking of.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's got a very DS9 kind of feel to the design, still.
Do you know what I mean?
Well, it reminds me yellow and black.
When we went down to, you know, to save Rebecca in Blaze of
Glory.
And it was all lit like this, wasn't it?
And sort of dusty.
Yeah, and dust and stuff.
But I just love the yellow.
There's so much yellow light, I think, in Discovery.
This is beautiful too.
I think you're right, you know, it's so like latter day, DS9, and
all of this now.
I think that's why I'm very keen.
Yeah.
Oh dear, Michael Burnham, honestly, she does like standing there
you know, looking a bit.
Looking caring.
Yeah.
But she does give the, she does give the governor of this, um, of
this asteroid belt or whatever the hell it is, uh, like she
absolutely smacks him down, which I thought was pretty damn
great.
I must prefer enough state discovery than the beginning where she
was playing it a bit like data.
Is it a Vulcan?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Which was brought up by Vulcans was the idea.
And so they decided to make her a bit more Vulcan.
And then they have to retool the character when she comes to the
future.
I, but you know, presumably with a view to making her captain even
then.
I think she's probably still my least favourite, though, of the
main cast.
Of the characters.
The characters, not the cast, just the character.
Oh, I mean, I love Sanequa as an actor.
I think she's making me.
Oh, and she delivered everything they ask her to do, you know, even
if she did take a little while to find the emotion.
Yeah, yeah, but I think that that's a riding problem, really.
That's a sign of how strong those characters are now. as well.
That she's weakest for me.
I just think she's so charming.
Look how beautiful she is.
And when she smiles, I mean, she's just so stunning. and just
magnificent.
Everybody else has got a better hook.
Saru is like your exotic alien stab it is an arrogant prick.
Yeah.
Culbert's pretty.
Telly is just wonderful.
Why did they write her out?
Oh no, I think she's taking a break.
So she will be back at the end of the season and she is going to
be back in series five, but I think she wanted to take a break and
I think she got pregnant or had kids or something.
Like there was some personal thing that kind of interrupted her
her being on her.
I know I asked you that question, but can I just point out there's
nothing finer.
And robotic armadillos with circular swords breaking into a prison
like this with mushroom, breaking them out of the prison. billowing
everywhere.
Switch them off just in time.
And just that she's so chill too.
Like, I love her and book coming down to planets and getting into
peril and the 2 of them kind of smiling and laughing at each other
and her being kind of chill and fabulous.
Is that eye again?
Yeah, yeah.
But that, I suppose, the only direction to take that relationship
because they are so such a good couple together is to sort of put
something between them.
Yeah.
You know?
And to, yeah, watching people being happy for seasons on, that's
right.
No, boring, man.
Nice TV.
And, and, but that's what also, and I think we said at the time
that's what makes that political... disagreement personal.
You know, the reason that we care, I think, one of the reasons
that we really care when that debate is, do we just blow the 10 C
up if we can, Tarka's plan, or do we try and contact them and
communicate with them first?
And it's Starfleet, and obviously we should do the 2nd one of
those, but you've got 2 people who you care about, who have a good
relationship together, who are great on screen together, who
disagree about it.
So it also becomes about their relationship.
It's perfect, I think.
So help to everyone.
Well, I hate to bring it down to that, but what a pretty couple.
Now, without giving me any spoilers whatsoever, because really I
do not want to be spoiled about this.
I'm assuming the 10 C is explained.
Somehow we managed to communicate with it eventually, and it's all
resolved.
Is it satisfying?
Yeah, in fact, I think that run of episodes that leads to the
finale of series 4 is the best in discoveries run and some of the
best Star Trek I've ever seen, I think.
Even Jammer, and you know what he thinks about Kursman Shrek.
Even he was given that 3s and 3 balls out of 10.
Well, I think he likes.
Yeah.
I think he likes science fiction, whereas I'm here for the soap
opera mostly.
But yeah, but no, this marries the two, though.
Yeah, but I think that the science fiction in, in that, you know
when they meet the 10C and try and communicate with them is
amazing, like, and visually, of course, it just looks stunning
like the 10CR spoilers, not guys in latex masks, right?
So it's properly weird and exciting.
That's right.
Turns out it was the wrong one, which is about them like
desperately trying to communicate with this thing.
Yeah.
In fact, there's several episodes that lead up to it.
They piece the bits of it together to get the communication to
happen.
And it's not McGuffins.
It's smart.
It's properly good.
Do you know what?
I actually do, you know, for a 2nd there, I actually could see all
the sort of CGI backdrop with him against it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, no, don't get me wrong.
It's still great.
But most of the time you feel like they're on a planet, but now
you've seen the backdrop.
I think that they've got a wall.
Like, I think that they now have like, you know how there's the
Star Trek things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Star Wars uses it.
So I think they've got an effects wall and they use it in very
obviously, I think, in strange new worlds.
But I don't care.
I don't think they're shooting on a planet.
I want weird visuals like this because I think this looks bleak
and weird in a way that those Star Trek planets in early TNG
didn't.
There's something...
It's strange. low light.
There wasn't even any depth to the light in the background, you
know?
With a few rocks to give it some depth.
It was like, you know, Doctor Who perspective shop set from the
80s.
Is, um, can I ask, is the episode where they communicate with the
tendency?
Is it as brilliant as that one, that Strangely World episode about
Ahura, where they were trying to communicate musically with that
alien?
Well, it doesn't have, it doesn't have...
It doesn't have Celia good.
The way they married the beauty of the visual concept, the
dialogue, the music.
It was just so that was just trekk out.
That was their 2nd bloody episode.
Yeah, yeah.
That was a little bit more romantic and lyrical than what happened
at the end of Discovery.
But it certainly reminded me of the end of Discovery Series 4.
I think Dharmok reminded me a bit of it as well.
But you've got something that's essentially incomprehensible and
how do you communicate?
I was about to say you can't go wrong with, you know, communicating
with aliens that are unknowable.
But then you have that episode of Voyager called the Void, where
the doctor creates these musical pads and they just go, yeah, and
it's really terrible.
It's not quite as beautiful as Celia Gooding humming on inside a
comma.
And so this is the bit which leads to their relationship being
about to break down.
And you can see her heartbroken because she's torn.
Obviously the right thing to do is to leave Felix to do what he
feels he needs to do.
Not to rob him with his agency, not...
Do you know what?
Enough people have died already.
That's exactly it.
His whole planet died.
He doesn't want to leave anything left to be killed by the anomaly
and he thinks it's wrong.
He's furious about it.
And look, look at her reaction.
You know, she does that teary reaction to lots of things
particularly in series two.
But here, you know, the guy, like Felix is sold as someone very
noble and wise by the quality of the performance, the guest
actor's performance, I think, is magnificent in what is a fairly
small part.
But I also think, um, I also think Sanique's reaction to him sells
that too.
Yeah, right.
I love the moment where he just walks out.
He's not having none of it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I love the moment, though, where she has to tell him that it is
going to come and it is going to destroy the asteroid.
Yeah, that's it.
Is Neil telling her that?
Is there actually an episode where we see it destroy books?
Well, it...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, we've seen that already.
Yeah, I would see that.
Yeah.
And remember he had a brother and a nephew, I think, on the planet
in series three?
And yeah, yeah, that's right.
And so there's a whole heap about that.
And there's an incredible episode about his grief where the space
problem is a metaphor for what it's like for Michael, having to
just let him feel his grief.
See, this is beautiful, isn't it?
This is beautiful.
So he, she's got a cone of silence like they have on get smart, but
he says, don't put it up.
Let everyone hear what I have to say.
And this is that tragic backstory speech.
Yeah.
But I think it's really good because it's not florid.
It's really straightforward.
It's just very bare.
And then just watching these people react, watching him say it.
It's such a good performance.
The lines are so straightforward.
Oh, he's not, and he isn't delivering it, you know.
And look at, look at Sanika's reaction, isn't he?
Yeah, yeah.
This is this is a fact I did this thing. yeah I killed him.
His daughter was in the next room.
And then he says, like, he's had enough time to sit and think
about it.
The daughter's a young woman now.
We'll see her later.
It's so good.
And look how beautiful that shot is too.
Yeah, the sun's setting behind him.
Oh, they think they're stars.
I mean, this thing will crash into. that wall, Nathan, you know.
I think I can see that. wall effect.
So I came back around to book very quickly.
It's one of my, and everybody's long-hailed criticisms of Star
Trek is that terrible things happen to people and then come the
next episode, everything starts again, you know, and this has
happened quite a few times, especially in 90s straight, when
terrible things happen to people and they're like, well, you turn
into a thing.
There's a new anomaly for us to solve, you know.
But with book and this plays out across the whole season, you
know?
The way the stories are told now.
And I'm hoping it's the scale to them.
By the end of the series.
He gets to come to terms with what's happened and you can move on
from it.
But I'm sure it doesn't feel rushed.
No not at all.
That was a beautifully strange shot too.
So the DMZ, the DMZ.
Now I'm calling it that.
The DMA doesn't the DMA doesn't destroy it directly.
It pushes it into the sun using the like gravitational waves from
it pushing into the sun.
It's not just saying hello, is it?
That would be absolutely chilling.
I'm not going to say...
And imagine that.
It's just trying to, it's holding out his hand and destroying
planets.
That would be amazing.
Oh, now this guy, here comes this asshole.
And she is absolutely saying, I am in charge of this ship and you
are the sovereign magistrate of something that isn't here
anymore.
So fuck you, you monster.
And the way that she ends the speech, you know, let's hope that
you find people more compassionate than you were, a society that's
more just than yours was.
And look at her.
She's so strong.
She specifically says, doesn't she?
You'll be arriving there as a refugee.
Yep.
Oh yeah, here we go, yeah.
Yeah.
So good.
I hope they're kind to you, the society society that you created.
A fairer society.
I mean, that's very, that's very pointed as well. isn't it?
Discovery is not beyond making, you know, a bit of criticism about
how the world handles certain things.
I think Kurtzman Trek is absolutely that, you know, like we're in
a post kind of, here's my scene.
Oh, sorry.
Are the 2 of them...
It's beautiful.
It's just nothing like sensational about it.
That's what I like.
It's just so.
This is what we do, you know?
We go to bed at the end of the day.
We talk about our day.
Sometimes we open up. sometimes we just have a hug.
But we've never seen that on Star Trek, we've never been included
in that.
I mean, it was... with Bashir and Garak every week, but we just
never saw it, you know?
Well, not on screen.
You know, like they were just too cowardly to show it on screen
but To be fair to Ira Bear, he did say that.
He said that in that documentary, we should have done it. fine.
And that's true.
That's why...
No, no, no.
It absolutely is.
It absolutely is with everybody.
People can say, look down.
Look at their eyes.
Yeah, it's so good, isn't it?
It's like, because it was like jadeways tell, you know, you always
stick your finger up your left nostril when you're telling a lie
or something.
You always have bullshit.
That's what you say.
She's never fit with her fucking combat. yeah.
No, that's a proper tell that people actually do.
They look away for a second.
I mean, no, example, Voyager and Voyager banter, but...
But even this is, you know, again, just using sort of 21st century
slang and stuff.
Look at us.
We jumped a 1000 years in the future and we're both still assholes
can't figure out shit now.
Yeah.
Yeah, there you go.
I love swearing on Star Trek. working too hard.
And they're not spending enough time together and they get this
moment at the end of the day.
Like, this, I've done this.
This is me, you know?
Yeah.
And it's not, you're right. not what I expect to see in Star
Trek.
And now here is this scene in the in the lift and Zora, I would
like to offer you my condolences.
I can tell from micro inflections in your voice that you're
experiencing sorrow.
Isn't that amazing?
And just leaves to that.
Oh, the dialogue scenes in that episode we watched.
Oh, fabulous.
And she doesn't overreact to it.
She's curious and a little bit wary, but, you know, it does become
a massive plot point in 2 episodes time, and we're only just
discovering about it.
Now, we've discovered that Zora is wise and is is self-aware and
stuff like that.
That's something that's been coming on.
But now that we know that she can experience emotions as well.
May I say extra points for the ultra dramatic lighting in that
turbo lift?
Yeah, beautiful. that's what we want That's what we're here for.
I love it.
You're normally quite critical, that sort of thing, but I love
it.
No, there's reflective surfaces here.
And if you want a well-lit starship, you always have strange new
worlds, which is very brightly lit with shiny white walls.
You're gonna say to me when I say this, but look, that's sub
effort they've got there, that tiny bit of makeup on that woman's
face.
So it's basically an actress with 2 almost horns on the side of
it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, well he had little ridges as well.
So this and again, you know, this is slightly, I don't know.
I think this is sort of strange and beautiful.
And, you know, she's clearly much, much older.
Felix has clearly been in prison for years now.
He's a middle-aged man.
This must have happened decades ago and she's a young woman and
she says my father was killed when I was a little girl.
And obviously that's changed things for her.
But, you know, that, that he had a hand that Felix had a hand in
doing that, that he made sure that that happened before he died.
He couldn't do anything about the killing, but he could do
something about the robbery.
I think it's so humane and so it's why I'm watching Star Trek.
Oh, look, it's Anika as she leaves that scene. the special effect
of the family tree with the face.
It's just another great example of what they can do now, you
know?
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, so here we go.
The lights are down.
Yeah.
Yes.
Well, this is nice because this is 2 separate blocks.
What are coming together at the end as well. that's right.
So, so Taka and book have each had their own plot and and now
we're kind of rejoining the main plot, aren't we?
So this is all going to feed into our big arc plot.
So, you know, we've learned a bit more about Taka and how Taka
knows how the DMA works.
We've learned a bit more about how book is reacting to the
destruction of his planet.
And now we see these 2 together and obviously, as we saw in 2
episodes time.
They head off together to destroy the 10 Z. I get 10C.
Oh my god.
I've literally just realised it's either fellow, the cliffhanger
ending of that other episode.
Is it those 2 that go?
Yeah, yeah.
Honestly, sometimes I'm really dense, aren't I?
Yeah.
And that's a great shot.
Remember that?
Where, where, um, Saneek was just standing in the shuttle bay and
she just goes, shit.
I admired it because it was all, it wasn't really a Jeopardy
Cliffhanger.
It was this is, you know, they're off to course some shit now. and
she's going to have to go after him.
It was low key.
But I like a low-key cliffhanger that promises a lot.
Remember the end of series 3 of DS Night where he goes, you're too
late.
We're everywhere about the changelings, you know?
And it promises a lot.
Yeah.
Oh, they pick it up really perfectly at the beginning of the next
season too.
It just feels like it's just all firing like on false cylinders
you know, it's...
They're just making very, very good Star Trek.
Yeah, I think so too.
It's a, you know, they're making a sort of Star Trek.
I like.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, they're making the sort of Star Trek, you know, like if you
like Star Trek and you're not sort of an angry white supremacist.
I think there's a Star Trek.
There's a Star Trek out there for you, I think.
You know, each Star Trek does things a little bit differently. each
has a different approach.
You're an angry white supremacist.
Captain Archer is waiting for you.
He'll apologise every now and again.
So he does the thing on the back of his neck, and there was an
episode in series 3 where book was captured by the Emerald Chain
uh, and held in a prison camp, and he, too, had that uh, thing on
his neck that, you know, the guards could use to blow your head
off if you didn't do the right thing.
Is everyone going to tell you all that green diva was all...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, she's an Orion.
Don't be racist.
Tandy's green too, you know.
Oh, no, I was about to say we don't see many Orion men, but we had
that man in the serene squad, didn't we?
Yeah, yeah.
Yep, yep.
Yep.
The Irish Orion guy.
It was a pirate. awesome That was that was very strong.
And I don't think I've said it already.
I don't think it's anywhere near the strongest of the year.
So, no.
I kind of shows you what we're playing with here in series 4 of
Discovery.
Well, as we speak, the series 5 trailer came out maybe a week ago
and it looks kind of galaxy spanning and has interesting new
characters and all sorts of things going on, and I'm really
excited by it.
And I'm in that sort of weird position where I'm excited for
series 3 of Picard.
I'm enjoying the new series of lower decks right now.
Prodigies coming along very soon.
Just getting a strange new world of Star Trek.
Yeah, yeah.
There's not one of them that I dislike.
Do you know what?
Your favourite showrunners coming back to Doctor Who as well.
I mean, you're just in...
In the land of God's TV wise right now, aren't you?
exactly right.
I mean, I do wonder, I know, I'm always a cynical one maybe.
I do wonder if maybe discovery might have peaked in this year, but
what a peak if it has.
I think though, like Star Trek, The Next Generation, it took 2
years to work out what it was all about, and it is only making, you
know, 10 to 13 episodes a year.
I think they may even only be doing 10 for series five, but I
can't remember for sure.
So they're not kind of milking it dry, even though there is on
average a new Star Trek episode every week these days.
Because they're also different and they have different creative
teams, even though you've got sort of Kurtzman and Goldman and
stuff like that, kind of working on a lot of them.
I think there's kind of fresh, fun new things happening in all of
them.
But I think for me as well, I'm going to make one last parallel
with DS9 with Discovery.
And that is, I think DS9 is one of those rare shows and it's the
only Star Trek shows at this point where I think every season it
got stronger.
Yeah.
And I certainly don't think that of TNG or Voyager, because they
both limped to a climax in their scene.
And let's fucking pray we don't get a series 7 of Discovery, like
series 7 at TNG with, you know, Thurnham masturbating off to a
romantic ghost.
I think that's not going to happen.
I think you what, she'd say.
They're not milking it.
She would sell it.
I mean, if you're not doing 26 episodes a year, that makes it
easier not to kind of strangle the duds or the potential duds, and
you know, to keep on the level of quality. that is true.
That is true.
We love it all, you know, even the shit.
Well, discovery, certainly, I think.
You know, it started for you strong for me, weak.
But I think with each subsequent season, they've just, they've
figured out what they want to do.
It took them quite a while to sort of be into a shape that they
were happy with, um, rebooting it twice, effectively before
getting there.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, And I can only, like, hope that in the future, even better.
All right, we've reached the end of the episode, and it's time for
us to choose our next Star Trek adventure, so Joe is on untitled
Star Trek project.com slash randomiser, and tell us what series
you're choosing from.
It's gonna be the animated series.
No, I'm going the predictable route of choosing all of them
again.
I just love it.
I love it every time I press the button, it just goes some totally
round.
Strange and new.
Okay.
Well let's see if it is going to be strange and new.
I'm pressing now.
Oh my god.
Oh no, we can't.
Is it threshold?
Your random Star Trek Ding Space 9 episode is season one, episode
10, move along home.
Oh, no, it's so bad. that you kind of think, what if we never did
that?
If we rolled again.
No, we can't do all the dance.
We've done some rosa already.
That's true.
Alamari.
Yeah, I'll do...
She's ridiculous.
They have no idea what they're doing. so bad What was it?
It's only a game.
Wow.
All right, let's try again, shall we?
Okay.
Your random Star Trek Voyager episode is season seven.
Oh, it's 2 parter, again.
Season seven, episode 17, workforce part two.
So I remember workforce really well, and it's kind of a little bit
yeah, it's like, there's a bit early on in the Odyssey where they
arrive at the land of the Lotus Eaters, and some of his men eat
the Lotus, and they just want to stay behind and just live a
normal life.
And Odysseus grabs them and just forcibly drags them back so that
they still continue their quest home to Ithaca.
And workforce just always reminded me of that.
It's kind of like, here they are, just living a normal life under
kind of late capitalism or whatever in a space office and they
need to be rescued from having a normal, ordinary, happy life in
order to resume their miserable journey home.
What do you think?
I just remember it being an astonishingly competent 2 parter in
what is a pretty shoddy final year.
Well, unfortunately, I've already pressed the button again.
So it can't be that one.
Although I do hope we do cover that at some point because it is it
is very good.
There's a planet side plot and there's a shit-based plot and
they're both really good and they're both heading in the same
direction.
It's really quite smart.
However, and this is the one we're going to do.
And I want to do it because it is the grimmest, darkest
potentially most cynical episode of Star Trek that has ever been
broadcast.
Can you guess what that is?
Angel one.
No, I can't bear to look at Rocker's hairy chest coming out of
that timfoil.
Oh, I had a bit of a sexual awakening seeing Riker's hairy chest, I
have to say.
That's an important developmental moment for me.
Okay, like a hairy chest.
I don't know why we think you'll be doing a lot of series 7
episodes of every show.
Everything.
Yeah.
So what is it?
is D Space 9, series 7, episode 8, the Siege of AR 558.
I'm sorry, I think this is an extraordinary episode.
This is Winrich Colt...
Oh, no, I just say it, Win Ridge.
Colby?
I think it's his best direction in Star Trek.
It's got Billy Mummy from Lost in Space in it.
It's the episode where, obviously, they're good.
Not everyone leaves with the same number of legs as when they
arrived.
Is that right?
is astonishing, yeah.
Oh, Aaron Isenberg.
Yeah.
I watched I watched another one.
What's the one?
Is it Nor the Battle to the Strong, which is like, like, I just
found it kind of unpleasant and not very Star Treky.
I think this, I don't know.
Maybe I'll be wowed by these.
I certainly remember it, but I don't really remember how I feel
about it.
This came out and there was an incredible reaction for this
episode.
Like this was what a lot of people considered to be the best of
the last season.
I know you're going to say that to take me out to the hollow suite
or bad a bean.
But let's remember, they're bringing these episodes out in the
same year.
Like, there's a bit of diversity and they make the very savvy
choice deliberately to send none of like the war veterans down to
AR 558.
So it's not wharf.
It's not Kira.
It's not the people that know how to fight.
So they wanted to make it desperate, so they send down Quark, Ezri
Bashir.
And so it's got that sort of element of shit, who's actually going
to make it out of this alive?
These people can't fight to save their lives.
And for once, I think it's an action sequence in 90s trek.
That is very impressive.
Well, we'll see.
We'll see.
Okay, we'll see.
That's a challenge.
All right.
Okay.
Let's do it It's been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with
Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek
Project.com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and
YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Sisrin, and the theme was composed
by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 19th of October 2022 and released
on the 28th of October.
We'll see you next time to Star Trek Deep Space 9, the Siege of AR
558.
I was so impressed by that scene, that therapy thing, when I
watched it again afterwards.
Oh, well, and it's David Kronenberg is just a fucking genius. he's
so good.
I like the bit where it goes, well, I'll get my schedule and I'm
here.
So we're doing this, all right?
Yeah, what about like, you are, you're 8.5 minutes is up.
Like he's so blunt.
He's so funny.
I think he says, was it?
We're 3 minutes in now.
We haven't discussed anything. really good.
He needs to be in every episode, but more.
Yeah, yeah.
He's in it a lot.
He isn't a surprising amount.
He's really great.
So good.
So the tag for this week's episode is going to be asked repeatedly
going, hey, Joe, hi.
And then doing other versions of it, and you saying that was
really crap and like...
Because that's what we did last week.
I said, hey, Joe. And then I said, oh, that was a little bit
unenthusiastic.
And you said, yeah, you've been really crap and uninterested
lately.
And then I did one and then you did one and then we, then I fucked
up the beginning and...
Just all of that.
So it's not going to be a saying clever things about Star Trek
after the credits.
It's just going to be like the absolute train it takes.
Three words.
Three lines out.
Yeah that's right.
Oh, my God.
I do remember that.
That's going to be so good.
I did not mean you've not been enthusiastic in the content of the
episode.
No, because I'd heard it.
I'd heard myself.
It's just like, what was that?
Hey, Joe. That was like when you were... unhappy to be here.
Hey Joe. I met me going, hi.
A slight hint of hysteria in my voice.
Yeah.
Oh, that dramatic episode is so great.
The ones where we don't like them.
No, just the best.
I genuinely think they are the best.
Subrosa.
They're about to persona.
The clock.
Oh, my favourite bit of the whole episode.
The clock.
It's kind of funny.
Would you imagine making that clock?
Well, because he wants to know the time.
What doesn't?
No, no, it's he doesn't know what time it is.
But he'd quite like to know.
And it's kind of like I'm thinking as that go. don't even know
where that came from.
It's very funny.
So stupid.
But the Dharmok episode is...
Probably, I mean, it's not all serious, but it's probably our most
uh, Yeah, where we're just studious episode where we are, Yeah
definitely accentuating...
And you are certainly accentuating the intellectual positives of
that episode.
And absolutely, yeah.
Yeah, got a lot going for it.
It's worth it.
Yeah.
I'm not sure we can do it here because this is, yeah, a bit throw
away, but in terms of character, there's lots to talk about here.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I've, yeah.
It's funny because we've done the one, 2, from now, which is but
to but to connect.
Which I thought was a strong, a better written episode.
Yeah.
I think because it had a clearer thing going on.
It's like, because remember, isn't it the finale, the midseason
finale?
So everything's come to a head?
And all of these things...
Yeah, it's building towards it.
Yeah.
Where, I mean, don't get me wrong.
It was armadillers with the circular source coming out of their
backs.
Beatles.
They're amazing.
Oh, well, they're all...
They look amazing anyway.
Yeah, they're pretty good.
I was like, all right.
Someone clearly having a lot of fun with this.
Imagine they've got these tiny circular swords coming out.
Why not?
We can do that.
We can do whatever we want.
The bone bar, you can have anything much money.
All right.
Here goes.
Oh, yeah, translate this broken, Nathan.
Jesus Christ.
It's the Beaumont.
Oh I love them.
I'm glad we have to buy that.
Pick some clothes off the rack the other day and I was like, I
wonder what that coat angle would look like around my head.
Round my ear.
No, this should be the tag in this episode, you know.
We're not being into talking.
We're just talking about the bone mile.
It's funny that when you, like just something turns into a thing
you know, like...
I was talking about that.
Rob Valentine last night, you know?
Because he nabbed something from a flight for entirety.
He goes. he goes, he goes, I hate doing this. he goes but they're
so brilliant.
He goes, so I'm going to have to take something.
He goes, basically, Skagra's plan.
It's just a load of word payroll, isn't it?
I was like, why?
And then I bring up the boat mark because we started talking about
how things, you know, and I said, well, it was just alien.
Well, you know what?
you want to hear the funniest thing of all?
I think he listens to Fly Retire, the entirety, a lot for sort of
your input, because we've talked about you a couple of times.
And he goes, yeah, he goes, um, I can't wait to listen to uh
untitled Star Trek project.
When's it coming out?
And I was like, what do you mean?
And he and he went, well, is it is it Joel soon?
I'm like, I'm advertising it every bloody week on Twitter.
Did you always on my phone?
He was listening to Flight Through Entirety.
I mention it every week.
And he goes, yeah, but he hasn't got title yet.
And I was like, oh, God.
Oh my god.
I was like, no, no problem.
That's because he's a proper rider.
He's a proper writer, so he thinks that I'm titled Star Trek
project.
I'll ask for about 5 minutes because we're talking about a
shoulder and I'm just laughing about that.
Oh, no.
And he goes, it is a fact I can be a bit slow on the uptake.
That's awesome.
Now he's got 50 episodes he has to listen to.
I know.
I've got 2 half days of it.
Fucking broadcast.
Yeah, he has to listen now.
Oh, don't make me long.
Oh my god. that's awesome