WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-06 at 22:49:53

1
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Hey, Joe. Hi.

2
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So last week, I expressed some concern that watching Darmok might be a bit of a problem because we both thought it was really great, the way that we did with PowerPlay, but then watching PowerPlay demonstrated to us that it wasn't really very good at all.

3
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And we were worried that we would spoil just a classic episode that we really liked by actually watching it again.

4
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Is that what happened?

5
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No, not at all.

6
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In fact, I've been through this procedure many times for our untitled Star Trek project where I've said, oh my god, that episode is amazing.

7
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I mean, for my reaction to before and after.

8
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I was like, oh, that is the Voyager episode of all time.

9
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And then we spent an hour and a half bitching about the thing.

10
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Oh, yeah.

11
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No, this was incredibly good.

12
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Like, seriously, properly the best episode we have covered since the Doomsday machine good.

13
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Yeah, yeah.

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I may even raided above the Doomsday Machine.

15
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I think it is one of the best Star Trek episodes ever.

16
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And I think this time.

17
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I think this time watching it, I liked it much more than I ever have before.

18
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I thought it was even stronger than I did on previous viewings.

19
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And I have watched this one over and over again because it is really superb.

20
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I've probably written this off as thought of worthy in the past.

21
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But now I'm a mature man with, you know, much more thoughtful ideas on life.

22
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I just thought this was so considered, so intelligent.

23
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Um, and uh, would you indulge me because this had a fair gestation period, this episode.

24
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It went for a couple of hands.

25
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And of course, you know who ended up with the assignment, don't you?

26
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As a Germanoski?

27
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of masks fame and, you know, every the Thor, every weird episode of Star Trek you could possibly think of.

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Reliable pair of hands.

29
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So by all accounts, a pillar was very enamoured with the concepts.

30
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Like Rick Berman hated it.

31
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He's like, no, there's no Borgs in there.

32
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Oh, nothing.

33
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Yeah, yeah, no sexy women.

34
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What's going on?

35
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And the original idea was, uh, it says here that Philip LeBesnik's story involved members of an away team, who in turn, each meet a mysterious alien boy drawing in the dirt, the boy greeted each of the team with a single word Darmok.

36
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And regardless of the response, the crew member was catapulted into the orbit of a strange cocoon.

37
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Okay, that sounds very Joe Manosky.

38
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But at the end, Picard realises that Darmark meant play sits down and tries to understand the dialogue of the child.

39
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So that was kind of the basic premise of, you know, 2 races coming together and they can't communicate.

40
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And it went through, they kind of waited, they sat on the premise for ages.

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Michael Piller saw dances with wolves, and he was completely blown away with the scene with Kevin Costner's character and the native American warrior sitting around the campfire.

42
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And he's like, no, no, we can really do this.

43
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And then Manosky was sent away basically and said, right, just write the hell out of this.

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And this is what he came up with.

45
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And once all the dust had settled and this had gone out, them and then said, I was wrong, this is one of the best episodes of Star Trek we've ever done.

46
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Yeah.

47
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Yeah, well, I think it is.

48
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And I think I think for me there's 2 reasons for that.

49
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One is that it is absolutely about what Star Trek should be about, which is about seeking out new life and new civilisations, you know, literally finding a completely different culture and seeking to work out what commonalties we have with them and getting to know them in a peaceful way.

50
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And so what Picard does here is exactly what Star Trek is about.

51
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It's central to what Star Trek is.

52
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And I can think of 2 examples of that in recent Star Trek, which was the 2nd episode of Strange New Worlds, where, although it was on the...

53
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Yeah, like trying to understand what those sounds meant and how to communicate with whatever was going on inside that comet.

54
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And then also at the end of Discovery season 4 where they have to try and learn how to communicate with the 10 C, who are weirdly, strangely different from us in a completely new way.

55
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Do you remember what that episode was called?

56
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The 2nd discovery.

57
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I'm not discovering 2nd street.

58
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Okay, because I just thought with that episode, it was just so perfect.

59
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The way they married, the concept of communicating with this thing, the beauty of the episode and the amount of character were that was going on in it.

60
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Like it just sung on every level.

61
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I think I was like, I can't believe this is the 2nd episode of this show.

62
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Well, really, they've done all their learning through discovery and all the other shows that they put out to that point.

63
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But this episode as well.

64
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Like, I know you're going to say there isn't much character work in this, that there's a lot of procedure and not a lot of character.

65
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I think Picard's characterised, especially well in this.

66
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Well, when I say there's no character, there's no scenes that seem to be primarily about telling us what sort of people we have here, well, because we know them.

67
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This is series 5.

68
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Exactly.

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We know them.

70
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And so what we just see is them being good at their jobs in a way that we expect them to be and them expressing viewpoints that we expect them to express.

71
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And we'll talk more about that going on because I think that's actually particularly interesting.

72
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But I just wanted to say the 2nd thing about the episode that I think makes it great.

73
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And that is that it's an episode about the importance of storytelling as a way of communicating with one another.

74
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And the example that Beverly gives that is like the children of Tamar is Shakespeare.

75
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And by the end of the episode, Picard is reading the Homeric hymns, which aren't actually by Homer, but which are about the Greek gods, and the Greek gods are an important shared part of our culture.

76
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We get the epic of Gilgamesh.

77
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We have the Old Testament.

78
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You know, the myths in the Old Testament, all of these stories that are part of our culture and that help us to understand ourselves.

79
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And then just seeing that made the major feature of an alien culture and the way that Picard reaches out to that alien culture, because it turns out we do the same thing.

80
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I think it's magnificently good.

81
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Do you know, uh, in devising the, was it Tamarian, Tamarian?

82
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Yeah, Tamarian, I think.

83
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Tamarian language.

84
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Manosky was inspired.

85
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This is our memory alpha, right?

86
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inspired by 3 sources.

87
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Can you guess who they were?

88
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No.

89
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Oh, okay.

90
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Well, you could be choosing from the entire body of human history.

91
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Is the Iliad?

92
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You've got the work of psychologist James Hillman. who emphasised all his metaphor.

93
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The quote, every word is a poem from translator and poet.

94
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John...

95
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I want to say Chiardi, Ciardi, and the dense historical metaphors present in Chinese poetry and philosophical works such as the I Ching.

96
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Yeah, you see, for me though, I think that when they refer to what's going on in Tamerian culture, they actually struggle to find the right words because I don't think these are metaphors, are they?

97
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They are literary illusions.

98
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This is a culture that communicates entirely through, you know, the, through talking about heroes and events in its shared mythology.

99
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And I think about, you know, the Greeks, the way that the ancient Greeks used the Iliad and the Odyssey, that they had all read it.

100
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They wrote stories around based on characters from those epics and they referred to those epics all the time.

101
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I'm reading, I'm reading a poem with my senior Latin class that refers to an elder called Eucalagon, and he's only ever mentioned in a Nid book 2, and he's the Trojan leader who lives next door whose house burns down, and you can just throw Eucalagon into a Roman poem, and the Roman reader will know, oh, that's the guy whose house burnt down.

102
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This must be about how our next door neighbor's house burns down.

103
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And it's exactly that sort of thing, that we all have a culture that's full of these sort of weird, rich illusions.

104
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Have you had a friend who is learning English and comes from somewhere completely different and understands the words we say but has no idea about all the references that we lace our conversations with. frequently.

105
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Yeah, honestly.

106
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I've slept with every foreigner that's come into England and we've gone from this every single time, you know?

107
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Don't worry.

108
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Everyone understands the motion of a bloke job, though.

109
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Don't worry.

110
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Honestly, Nathan, you're so smart.

111
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You make me feel so horny.

112
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Seriously Christ.

113
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Keep talking.

114
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But even Dr. Bev has a brilliant line in this where they're talking about metaphor and then she chips in and says, yeah, but if you don't understand the context of the characters that they're talking about, then none of it means anything.

115
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And actually, it led me to going on online because I was like, I wonder if there's any cultures out there that do talk primarily in metaphor.

116
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And as you can imagine, there is not.

117
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But there's a lot of sort of interesting discussion online about the use of metaphor and what it says about cultures.

118
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It's definitely something worth just type that into Google and have a look.

119
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There's a lot of really interesting. essays out there.

120
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Do you know what?

121
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We discussed this thing in a lot of death.

122
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We should probably start watching it at some point.

123
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We should probably start watching it.

124
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Okay, so I will count us in. 543, two, one, and we're off.

125
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Off we go.

126
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Captain Slog, Stargate, Something.

127
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Yeah, it's on the website.

128
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It's this incredible thing where this is the shot that around about half of Star Trek episodes start with this particular optical, which was presumably shot during...

129
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So here's Picard's new frock, which was his idea and will appear in season 5 and six.

130
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I don't think he wears it in season seven.

131
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I have a feeling that he leaves it on the holodeck in ship in a bottle, which means that everything that happens after ship in a bottle is actually still on the holodeck.

132
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How do you know?

133
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I mean, that's the far beyond the stars, Twitz, isn't it?

134
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you know, it's sort of a bit more velvety than everybody else is, you know?

135
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Yeah, so it's swayed, I think.

136
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It's a cut above.

137
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Yeah, the yolks.

138
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Yeah, the yolks on the shoulders are sort of horribly rubbery or plasticky or something and they go away.

139
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It just becomes that suede thing.

140
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And he's got bell bottoms and stuff.

141
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It's very kind of original track.

142
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It's quite nice.

143
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Do you imagine Wolf looks back on this hippie period with his hair here and just cringes?

144
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what was I thinking?

145
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Why didn't I have a haircut?

146
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No, he's got a bob.

147
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No, it's before he tied it back.

148
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Wait, I need to tell you this, because Reich has a line there where he goes, ah, the children of Tarma, I figured there was just a myth, you know, and he's been doing this in series one.

149
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Back when Aldea appeared in when the bow wakes.

150
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He's like, 0 my God, out there.

151
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I thought it was just a myth that they do like doing this, don't they, at the beginning of an episode.

152
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So the very last line of that scene where Picard says, I believe that we are going to be able to communicate with them because what communication takes is patience and imagination.

153
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And then we cut immediately to them finding the Tamarians completely incomprehensible.

154
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Everyone's looking at each other.

155
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You can't look so concerned.

156
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He's nodding slowly.

157
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But it does turn out that they do have imagination and patience and they do find a way of communicating.

158
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So, you know, there's a moment in which where there's a moment where it looks like he's just being too kind of cocky, you know, where, from the 24th century, we know how to communicate with aliens will be fine, and then he's completely baffled.

159
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Oh, that is a great joke, isn't it?

160
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Yeah.

161
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Yeah.

162
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And do you know what, for one, Troy's line is really important because she says, look, I sense no hostility from them.

163
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And that's kind of an important thing to establish in the only sort of drama that's here, until the monster comes along, is the fact that they can't communicate.

164
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It's not that they're threatening them.

165
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It's just they can't, they don't understand each other.

166
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No, and it's not just that they don't understand their words, but they've got no idea of what's going on.

167
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They don't know what they're doing all these things for.

168
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So when they transport Picard, when they transport, um, Dathon down to the planet, we don't know why and we perceive it as a threat and that becomes the tension of the episode, I think.

169
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Oh, Winfield performance, right?

170
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He puts so much worth into this dialogue.

171
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Like it really means some.

172
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No, no.

173
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But I want to say, because you remember, we had the cratassons last week, and we've had some pretty quirky aliens on untitled Star, the Beaumar and people like that, you know. who are nowhere near as convincing and they're talking normal English.

174
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But I actually think that the actors know what this dialogue means.

175
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And so when they say it, they look, I mean, this dialogue doesn't work in any sense.

176
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Do you know what I mean?

177
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Like it doesn't work.

178
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This is not a realistic portrayal of how anyone could possibly communicate.

179
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It is a science fiction-y thing and we've decided it's a, you know, race that communicates in literary illusions all the time, but that doesn't really work as a language.

180
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You never wrote those stories about, you know, the people that were cut off from society, you know, not sort of kept in secluded areas.

181
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Yeah, but they all have away from sort of culture and society and how we talk.

182
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Well, if you only spoke to them in metaphor.

183
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Well, then they would just talk in metaphor, wouldn't they?

184
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No, no, no, no, because language is generated by the human brain.

185
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It's not purely cultural.

186
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It is something that we create.

187
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Yeah, no one invents it.

188
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So people develop languages and even if people are...

189
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Are you saying that regard, if you weren't even taught a language, you would grow up.

190
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No, you, if you're young and you're not exposed to language, then you can never properly acquire it.

191
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But groups of people from different cultures who all get thrown into a melting pot together like happened all the time with colonialism, like, um, you know, in plantations and stuff where people from different language groups all come together.

192
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They're kids, like they end up developing a pigeon language and then a Creole and they've you learned to speak.

193
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I'll say in these days.

194
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I don't understand a word they're saying.

195
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They've got their own language.

196
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Oh, I see.

197
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Yeah, they always have a sound... like a fusty old man, have I?

198
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Just that number.

199
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It happens to every generation, though.

200
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Kids learn to speak to each other and not necessarily just to speak to older people.

201
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You know, when he's holding those 2 knives up in the air like that, right?

202
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Now, there's nothing really about his body language is suggesting that he wants to fight Picard, right?

203
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And that was the one thing in the 1st half.

204
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I was like, come on.

205
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He's clearly not trying to fight with you But then I think, you know, I've seen this before, so I know how it goes down.

206
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Yeah, I was wondering that too, because the one criticism that I would have is that they are a bit slow on the uptake and I don't know whether that's because I've known how this episode works out for 30 years or something.

207
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I think that is the slow burn nature of this means when he does, when they do start to communicate in a broad sort of way, is so satisfying.

208
00:16:47.340 --> 00:16:58.740
And the way the 2 actors play, the way Paul Winfield plays the moment where Picard repeats Darwak and Jalad at Attenagre. oh, he's got it, you know, like, thank God.

209
00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:01.980
He's so good really is great.

210
00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:03.419
He's so cute.

211
00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:03.899
Like...

212
00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:06.119
Yeah, he's so cute.

213
00:17:06.180 --> 00:17:11.160
He's so likeable. and we can't really understand him I mean, that's incredible.

214
00:17:11.220 --> 00:17:12.359
So it's all through body language.

215
00:17:12.420 --> 00:17:14.339
Yeah, yeah.

216
00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:16.079
And he just says a real charm to him.

217
00:17:16.140 --> 00:17:22.500
I mean, despite the pound of latex on his head, he's really charming and quite likeable, I think.

218
00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:27.660
I will say you might mock the fact that we've been using these model shots ever since encounter at PowerPoint.

219
00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:29.579
They are great model shoals.

220
00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:31.319
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

221
00:17:31.380 --> 00:17:32.579
They're just very repetitive.

222
00:17:32.700 --> 00:17:34.440
That's right.

223
00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:36.660
Deja vu, you know?

224
00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:39.299
Well, I think this looks good too.

225
00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:45.839
And I like how the Tamarian ship is much bigger and much more powerful than the enterprise.

226
00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:47.099
Actually, you know what?

227
00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:55.500
They have every right to be a little bit perturbed because the last time Picard was beamed off the bridge was when he went to the Borg ship and they turned him into Lacutus.

228
00:17:55.559 --> 00:17:56.640
Yeah, yeah.

229
00:17:56.700 --> 00:17:57.240
Yeah.

230
00:17:57.299 --> 00:18:07.319
So I think it's playing with Star Trek a little bit as well because this seems to me to be a bit like the setup for Arena.

231
00:18:07.380 --> 00:18:09.299
Oh, very much.

232
00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:12.240
The 2 people down on the canyon.

233
00:18:12.299 --> 00:18:12.779
Yeah, yeah.

234
00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:13.740
Yeah.

235
00:18:13.799 --> 00:18:17.400
And so the idea there is that they have to defeat one another, right?

236
00:18:17.460 --> 00:18:30.599
And so here, that's kind of what, I mean, so the conflict in this episode really comes from Riker and Wharf want to be more belligerent.

237
00:18:30.660 --> 00:18:32.940
And that is convinced, isn't he?

238
00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:36.240
He's convinced this is a duel.

239
00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:38.220
Yeah, yeah.

240
00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:41.579
And like Worf exists, as I said before, to be wrong.

241
00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:45.720
He's usually wrong about these things, particularly in Star Trek, the Next Generation.

242
00:18:45.900 --> 00:18:50.339
He spent, what, 11 seasons, being roughly wrong.

243
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:51.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

244
00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:56.279
But, but, and Riker is definitely trying not to start anything.

245
00:18:56.279 --> 00:19:05.700
You know, he wants to rescue Picard and he goes to some lengths to try and do that, but he doesn't want to be an aggressor.

246
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:06.660
He doesn't want to get them.

247
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:08.039
It's not like Janeway.

248
00:19:08.099 --> 00:19:08.700
Do you know what I mean?

249
00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:14.039
Janeway's in the Delta Quadrant and she just wants to blow the sheet out of various aliens and good for her.

250
00:19:14.099 --> 00:19:19.740
He is still trying to do the right thing and trying to resolve this peacefully.

251
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:21.960
And in fact, the way they time it.

252
00:19:22.019 --> 00:19:25.920
Brilliant Picard out just as that monster's attacking the other character.

253
00:19:25.980 --> 00:19:27.660
I'm like, no, that is genius.

254
00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:30.299
Right, that is basically the problem.

255
00:19:30.539 --> 00:19:33.119
Yeah, he's the one who's responsible.

256
00:19:33.180 --> 00:19:36.059
And I think that says something about us as well.

257
00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:50.759
You know, that Star Trek is about the instinct to build bridges and, um, you know, link hands across cultures and explore the world in a peaceful way, but human beings aren't entirely like that.

258
00:19:50.819 --> 00:20:00.599
And we're also, you know, scared of things that we don't understand and, you know, we can be pushed and so on.

259
00:20:00.660 --> 00:20:11.220
Like, like, um, close the channel, Mr. Worf and Worf says gladly, as if now we're irritated by the fact that we can't understand these people.

260
00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:13.200
I was like, you know what?

261
00:20:13.259 --> 00:20:15.180
That's a sensible move, because I can't get through to it.

262
00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:15.960
Actually, no.

263
00:20:16.019 --> 00:20:22.740
If you can't communicate with somebody, then just cutting off that channel of communication, actually, it might be seen as an aggressive move.

264
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:24.119
Yeah.

265
00:20:24.180 --> 00:20:25.680
Yeah, well, screw you.

266
00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:26.819
We can't talk to you.

267
00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:30.480
So now we're on, I think we're on vacation.

268
00:20:30.539 --> 00:20:31.500
No, we know.

269
00:20:31.980 --> 00:20:33.779
So when it's dark, we're not, it's a studio.

270
00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:34.140
You know what?

271
00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:34.740
It's quite effective.

272
00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:35.940
They turn the lies right down.

273
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:36.599
Yeah, yeah.

274
00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:38.339
Well, they could never achieve this.

275
00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:44.039
They would never have been able to afford shooting at night outdoors like that in Star Trek and it does work pretty well.

276
00:20:44.220 --> 00:20:46.740
I think, yeah, this takes a while, doesn't it?

277
00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:55.859
A minute ago, when he threw the knife at Picard and then Picard threw the knife back at him, throws a bag to say, I won't fight with you.

278
00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:00.599
And then there's a look of utter sort of disappointment on the Tamarian's face.

279
00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:04.859
That would be the point where I'm like, okay, he was giving me a gift.

280
00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:07.799
And he's going. he's going his arms wide.

281
00:21:07.859 --> 00:21:09.539
Well, come on.

282
00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:10.920
Come on.

283
00:21:11.339 --> 00:21:16.440
But again, you know, like, we know how this works.

284
00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:20.220
And, yeah, I'm wondering if like a kid would get it more, you know?

285
00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:22.980
Yeah, it's impossible to know now.

286
00:21:23.099 --> 00:21:24.240
Yeah.

287
00:21:24.299 --> 00:21:27.180
And he, yeah, because we, does it mean give or take?

288
00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:28.259
That means I'm giving a gift.

289
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:29.400
I'm giving, you know.

290
00:21:30.420 --> 00:21:30.660
Yeah.

291
00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:31.380
Yeah, yeah.

292
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:39.900
And so he's kind of using the proper names and stuff, which is what data theorised all those things were, I don't know what Kadir beneath Momoter means.

293
00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:41.400
What was when the wolves fail?

294
00:21:41.460 --> 00:21:42.660
Is that when you made a mistake?

295
00:21:42.960 --> 00:22:20.700
So when something fails, he says Sharka when the walls fell, and all that makes me think of is when the Iliad is, it's not in the Iliad, but when in Aeneid book 2, Troy gets overrun, you know, Troy, the Trojan War, the story that's told in the Iliad, and in its sort of fan fiction sequel, the Aenead, is a city with enormous walls that withstands a siege for, you know, 10 years and then finally is trick into, you know, letting enemy uh, letting enemy soldiers in and the city burns and the walls fall.

296
00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:39.059
And that's, you know, the, we do get the epic of Gilgamesh, but the Iliad and the Odyssey are some of the oldest works in Western literature, and they were absolutely foundational for centuries afterwards, and even, you know, well into our time, they're still hugely important.

297
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:47.640
And so having it, having, you know, that reference to a walled city falling, I think tells us a little bit about what the Tamarians are doing.

298
00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:51.420
You imagine that was what Joy Manosky was getting out then, with that one line?

299
00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:59.220
Well, no, but I look, I think I also think of Jericho, the walls of Jericho falling.

300
00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:02.400
Is that Book of Joshua?

301
00:23:02.460 --> 00:23:02.880
I don't know.

302
00:23:02.940 --> 00:23:04.140
I guess so. about Joshua.

303
00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:13.740
And again, you know, part of our just shared mythology, at least this is Western mythology, which is all I know very much about.

304
00:23:13.740 --> 00:23:22.140
So a big walled city falling really speaks to just that whole mytho historical thing that all these references come from.

305
00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:24.180
Oh, straight to the Berlin wall, do you know?

306
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:27.660
Well, mind you, then you can put your own reading on this, can't you?

307
00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:28.740
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

308
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:32.700
Well, in fact, one of the things that this episode does, which I think is great.

309
00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:36.359
At the end, we have Picard and Dathon at Ella Drill.

310
00:23:36.420 --> 00:23:36.900
Yeah.

311
00:23:36.900 --> 00:23:39.779
And so Star Trek becomes part of that.

312
00:23:39.779 --> 00:23:42.480
Mython historical ref.

313
00:23:42.539 --> 00:23:45.240
And of course, you know, like we have a Star Trek podcast.

314
00:23:45.299 --> 00:23:48.180
We're constantly talking shit about Star Trek all the time.

315
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:51.539
And so heaps of our shared cultural references.

316
00:23:51.539 --> 00:23:54.119
What's a Star Trek style?

317
00:23:54.180 --> 00:24:01.079
This is a perfect time for me to drop this because someone at my work came at me the other day and you went, I went looking for your podcast, you know.

318
00:24:01.140 --> 00:24:02.880
I found the one about Star Trek.

319
00:24:02.940 --> 00:24:04.619
I was like, oh, okay, how did you find it?

320
00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:07.079
He goes, I didn't understand a fucking word you were talking about.

321
00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:09.180
There you go.

322
00:24:09.299 --> 00:24:11.400
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it.

323
00:24:11.819 --> 00:24:14.819
Because no shared historical reference.

324
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:19.559
Oh, when you froze, can you say shark and when the walls fell?

325
00:24:19.619 --> 00:24:20.519
Yeah.

326
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:24.839
No, I said, Nathan, when the techno babble fell.

327
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:34.799
Oh, there's technobabble in this episode that I think is really good, by the way. we'll get there Finally, he's realising.

328
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:35.400
Giving him a gift.

329
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:36.660
He's taking the fire.

330
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:38.940
Oh, look at Paul Winfield.

331
00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:40.079
He so happy that he's got it.

332
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:41.880
Yeah, Jesus Christ.

333
00:24:41.940 --> 00:24:44.039
I thought I was going to have to come at you with the fire, you know?

334
00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:49.799
Yeah, he's adorable.

335
00:24:49.859 --> 00:24:59.700
So I didn't actually know this, but someone at work told me that he's in Star Trek 2, which I think I knew, but he's one of the people who gets a yearwig in his ear, him and check off.

336
00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:01.019
Very pretty, he is too.

337
00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:01.980
I must say.

338
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:02.700
Yeah, yeah.

339
00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:03.480
He's a pretty young man.

340
00:25:03.539 --> 00:25:05.759
Can I just say so, because it's something you'd normally say.

341
00:25:05.819 --> 00:25:09.539
This is the 1st appearance of the type 6 shuttlecraft in Darmox.

342
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:10.619
You know?

343
00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:13.500
I'm not sure how it differs from the type five, but you know.

344
00:25:13.500 --> 00:25:16.500
Okay, this is Ensign Gates, by the way, Drew.

345
00:25:16.500 --> 00:25:17.700
I talked to there.

346
00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:19.559
Look, he's really angry.

347
00:25:19.619 --> 00:25:22.500
What does he put his foot up on the seat like that?

348
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:31.380
That's right, a maneuver. because he's pointing his dick at Data's left shoulder just to let him know who's in charge.

349
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:33.720
It's kind of like, so terrible.

350
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:34.740
My dick's right here.

351
00:25:35.940 --> 00:25:38.339
I'm in charge, right?

352
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:39.180
Here's my cog.

353
00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:42.539
Yeah, yeah, that's it. right in your face.

354
00:25:43.259 --> 00:25:45.779
But Ensign Gates is over here.

355
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.740
He doesn't do that to Anson Gates because that would be that would be sexual harassment.

356
00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:54.000
The story game on E, you know, between wharf and its ensign onto shuttlecraft.

357
00:25:54.059 --> 00:25:56.339
Well, she's not speaking to him.

358
00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:03.420
He's clearly said something inappropriate. during launch and she's just decided she's fucking blanking him.

359
00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:04.380
We got 5 minutes to kill.

360
00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:05.160
What do you reckon?

361
00:26:05.220 --> 00:26:10.200
I mean, I don't think Ensign Gates gets paid to say any lines here either.

362
00:26:10.259 --> 00:26:14.819
I will say, though, it's the 1st appearance of Ensign Robin Leffler in this episode.

363
00:26:14.819 --> 00:26:15.599
Yeah.

364
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:26.220
It goes on to be Wesley Crusher's Squeeze in the wonderful episode, the game. which I watched this week. and that also lived up to my memory of it.

365
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:29.700
Yeah, I mean, that's wonderful for different reasons.

366
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:32.099
And that's a very ridiculous show.

367
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:33.539
Yeah, yeah.

368
00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:41.700
That's the thing this show's doing really well by season five. you know like each week has a different tone and each week is really properly solid, I think.

369
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:45.960
Remember I told you that Nurse Okawa has a sequence where she looks like she's having an orgasm and a turbo lift.

370
00:26:46.019 --> 00:26:47.579
I thought maybe I was exaggerating that.

371
00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:48.539
I was not.

372
00:26:48.779 --> 00:26:51.119
No, she's got the glow.

373
00:26:51.180 --> 00:26:51.900
I remember it.

374
00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:54.960
She sort of breathing heavily and talking to the kids.

375
00:26:57.539 --> 00:27:01.380
Sorry, I shouldn't be talking about orgasms during darm ox, should I?

376
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:09.660
So that's the other thing too, which I think is just magnificently good, is that you've got this big incomprehensible spaceship.

377
00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:13.500
Like he says good shooting to this image of the spaceship.

378
00:27:13.559 --> 00:27:14.759
He can't communicate with it.

379
00:27:14.819 --> 00:27:15.960
It's there.

380
00:27:16.019 --> 00:27:17.640
It's completely incomprehensible.

381
00:27:17.700 --> 00:27:18.960
We don't know what it's doing here.

382
00:27:19.019 --> 00:27:20.220
Jimmy Troy then.

383
00:27:20.220 --> 00:27:21.720
She's going, she said it's wrong.

384
00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:24.839
You're assuming that this is some kind of conflict. wrong.

385
00:27:24.900 --> 00:27:27.779
Man, the women are written brilliantly in this.

386
00:27:27.900 --> 00:27:30.960
I think Deanna's actually really excellent.

387
00:27:31.019 --> 00:27:33.059
And she's the one who works it out.

388
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:34.980
Dr Beverly has her moments as well.

389
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:38.700
Yeah, and it's the men look that are being aggressive.

390
00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:39.839
Can't get it working.

391
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:51.779
But it rather does point out that it's a shame that they aren't written this well, like throughout the run.

392
00:27:52.140 --> 00:28:02.460
No, and this one is unusual in that there's nothing that's purely character driven, that this is as procedural as Star Trek gets.

393
00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:04.079
And that's something that I miss.

394
00:28:04.140 --> 00:28:13.500
I think that the others have such heavy premises and are in a sense not just about a spaceship boldly going where no one has gone before.

395
00:28:13.559 --> 00:28:14.940
They're about something else.

396
00:28:15.299 --> 00:28:19.079
And here you just have the people doing their jobs well.

397
00:28:19.079 --> 00:28:20.940
And I think there's a real pleasure in that.

398
00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:21.900
I think I've said that before.

399
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:27.660
I would like to sharply controls this to a night in Stick Bay that we just watched last week.

400
00:28:27.660 --> 00:28:36.359
Where I asked you the question, you know, did Archer go to diplomatic school at Starfleet Academy or whatever it's called?

401
00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:37.259
No, it's not Starfleet.

402
00:28:37.319 --> 00:28:38.339
Yeah, you'd make that point though.

403
00:28:38.460 --> 00:28:39.720
There is only one ship in that show.

404
00:28:39.779 --> 00:28:51.359
Well, the diplomacy that Picard expresses in Dalmark is leagues ahead of, you know, Archer took his dog down to piss on the lawn, for God's sake, and then blame them for it.

405
00:28:52.019 --> 00:29:18.000
Well, I think that that is also, you know, I think Roddenbury chooses a brash young man in Kirk in the 60s, and then when he's a bit older, he chooses an older, more thoughtful person and lets Riker do all of the sort of brash young man things, even though he's sort of... could be tempestuous and he could be aggressive, but he was a diplomat.

406
00:29:18.059 --> 00:29:20.220
Yeah, yeah. and he wasn't dumb.

407
00:29:20.279 --> 00:29:25.319
He wasn't dumb, but you know, like Picard's main thing is how thoughtful he is, I think.

408
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:28.440
Whereas Archer, sorry.

409
00:29:28.500 --> 00:29:30.960
I'm not going to go on, bang on about it too much.

410
00:29:31.140 --> 00:29:38.579
But like the patience that Picard shows in this episode, you know, just in trying to understand him.

411
00:29:39.420 --> 00:29:42.119
So I like this scene.

412
00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:48.180
So this scene is just them working out what the recording means.

413
00:29:48.240 --> 00:30:05.579
So there's a conversation between Dathon and his 1st officer and, you know, they they rightly work out that, you know, something is being suggested and then rejected and, you know, the River Tamar in winter comes to mean, be quiet, be still.

414
00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:08.940
The river freezes in winter, presumably and doesn't move anymore.

415
00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:11.940
And so we use that to mean silence or stillness.

416
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:14.099
And so, you know, he's shut up.

417
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:17.099
He offers a suggestion and Dathon rejects it.

418
00:30:17.160 --> 00:30:24.059
So they kind of know what's happening pragmatically in this conversation, but they just don't know what the conversation's about.

419
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:27.000
And then we get this cross-referencing the database.

420
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:30.420
And here's a Darmok is a frozen dessert on the test.

421
00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:33.599
That is very funny.

422
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:36.599
He's not being played for laughs, like no one reacts to it.

423
00:30:36.660 --> 00:30:38.700
It's adorable.

424
00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:45.059
I do love how they sort of walk away from the language because they're never going to understand the, because they don't understand the concept.

425
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:48.119
So they're talking about the emotional beats between them.

426
00:30:48.180 --> 00:30:56.819
They're picking apart the exchange with what they can recognise, the body language, the emotions, you know, the familiarity.

427
00:30:56.880 --> 00:30:58.019
It, isn't it?

428
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:07.859
Well, Ada says that he's met 1754 different alien races since joining Starfleet or none of them mentioned the word Dharmok.

429
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:09.660
None of them said Dharmok.

430
00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:14.160
Trust Troy to be the one to, you know, get excited about dessert.

431
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:17.579
She's like, I'm going to try one of those.

432
00:31:19.380 --> 00:31:21.240
No, it is good.

433
00:31:21.299 --> 00:31:22.079
It is great.

434
00:31:22.140 --> 00:31:22.500
It is great.

435
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:23.579
And you're right. you know what?

436
00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:28.380
It would be all the worse if they if you threw in the 90s trek banter.

437
00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:29.759
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

438
00:31:29.819 --> 00:31:31.259
No, they're just getting on with their work.

439
00:31:31.319 --> 00:31:34.319
There's nothing about this that's just purely about the characters.

440
00:31:34.380 --> 00:31:35.220
They're just doing their job.

441
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:36.900
It seems really smart.

442
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:38.279
Yes.

443
00:31:38.339 --> 00:31:47.039
Well, like, and so, and I like how Deanna is the one that notices the, is it, uh, Chantil 3, Shakti 3?

444
00:31:47.099 --> 00:31:47.759
didn't quite see it.

445
00:31:47.819 --> 00:31:48.299
Chantel.

446
00:31:48.299 --> 00:31:50.279
Chantel 3.

447
00:31:50.519 --> 00:31:51.359
Yeah.

448
00:31:51.420 --> 00:31:56.220
And and so Darmok and Tanagra are both in the same story.

449
00:31:56.279 --> 00:32:05.279
And so now they're working out what's going on, just as Picard is doing it downstairs, which is how these things always work, I think.

450
00:32:05.339 --> 00:32:11.099
Okay, so this is where we're nearly at the point where the monster comes in, right?

451
00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:14.460
And you and I have had a few things to say about the design.

452
00:32:14.460 --> 00:32:17.460
So what they've decided to do on this, they go full on predator, don't they?

453
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:19.980
You've got the outline of the monster.

454
00:32:20.940 --> 00:32:23.579
It's a bit unknowable, isn't it?

455
00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:24.180
I quite like that.

456
00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:26.039
I do too.

457
00:32:26.099 --> 00:32:29.220
I mean, think about the Dauphin in series two.

458
00:32:29.339 --> 00:32:32.880
Do you remember that where it was like woman who turned?

459
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:37.440
Like the various...

460
00:32:37.500 --> 00:32:41.640
Yeah, and she turns into this enormous thing with red eyes and fangs. really funny.

461
00:32:41.700 --> 00:32:43.740
They look so shit.

462
00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:47.880
Like they look, they would be embarrassing, you know, at a theme park.

463
00:32:47.940 --> 00:32:49.140
They're really, really bad.

464
00:32:49.259 --> 00:32:52.259
When Fleetwood Mac turned up as a giant fish.

465
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:52.740
Yes.

466
00:32:52.740 --> 00:32:53.940
The giant fish?

467
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:54.299
Exactly.

468
00:32:55.259 --> 00:33:02.519
And so and so what they wisely do is they have a monster and the monster kind of has horned head and stuff like that.

469
00:33:02.579 --> 00:33:07.140
It looks like a mythological monster, like a monster from Earth's mythology, which is fair enough.

470
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:09.420
But it's all in like this special effects silhouette.

471
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:09.779
Yes.

472
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:12.000
Yeah, she's really never seen that much of it.

473
00:33:12.059 --> 00:33:16.019
There's, I think there's one shot that looks really ridiculously funny.

474
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:18.539
Well, it's still 90s track, right?

475
00:33:18.599 --> 00:33:19.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

476
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:21.720
But on the whole, I think it looks magnificent.

477
00:33:21.779 --> 00:33:22.740
I think it's a really good shot.

478
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:23.640
But maybe they knew.

479
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:25.799
Maybe they thought, okay, this is a good episode, right?

480
00:33:25.859 --> 00:33:28.740
Let's not just throw in some shitty...

481
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:30.180
You know, that's right.

482
00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:31.980
Let's do something a bit different.

483
00:33:32.099 --> 00:33:34.619
She's so cute that Robin Lefler, isn't she?

484
00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:36.660
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

485
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:38.339
Yeah.

486
00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:50.039
And so, so, again, the techno babble here, I think the idea is that you've got to credibly give the impression that these people know what they're doing.

487
00:33:50.099 --> 00:34:04.500
And when they're doing something technical, so they just have to sound super confident, we know the situation that he's going to do some magic tech thing to try and get through the transporter scattering field.

488
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:07.079
And so it doesn't matter what he says.

489
00:34:07.140 --> 00:34:17.280
All that matters is that it sounds like technical terminology that we can't understand because we're from the 20th century or the 21st century.

490
00:34:17.340 --> 00:34:19.079
And I think it's good.

491
00:34:19.139 --> 00:34:20.639
It's not solving the problem.

492
00:34:20.699 --> 00:34:26.219
It's not like saying, you know, the biobed and the chronoson fields and stuff, it's not solving or creating the problem.

493
00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:31.440
It's just saying, we're doing this thing and you know what it is, but this is how we talk about it and that's fine.

494
00:34:31.500 --> 00:34:36.539
I don't know, like, an episode which is about, you know, cultural language.

495
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:38.639
Or in an episode of Star Trek.

496
00:34:38.699 --> 00:34:41.880
If you didn't have a bunch of techno babbling in it, I be like, well, there's some things I'm missing.

497
00:34:41.940 --> 00:34:42.179
Yeah.

498
00:34:42.179 --> 00:34:56.880
There's that wonderful moment where the Tamarians are speaking all in very concrete terms about rivers and hills and arms and, you know, like all of that sort of thing, just speaking really concretely about things.

499
00:34:56.940 --> 00:35:03.360
And Picard is up on the ship's bridge going, you know, do you think that this would be an agreeable arrangement and stuff?

500
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:09.480
Like he gives his big speech with all of these abstract nouns in it and it just shows how completely different they are.

501
00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:22.019
There's a real concreteness and a real poetry to the Tamarian language and there's just this sort of bizarre, you know, lead and...

502
00:35:22.139 --> 00:35:33.539
I'm sorry, you just, we just missed the moment there where Picard finally starts talking in the Tamarian language for a 2nd and um, the Tamarian captain just goes, oh, yes, yeah.

503
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:35.579
It's such a great moment.

504
00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:37.800
He must be thinking about that boy.

505
00:35:37.860 --> 00:35:39.480
Oh, it's stupid fucking idiot.

506
00:35:39.539 --> 00:35:40.260
For God's sake.

507
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:44.280
He's thinking, he can be taught, you know.

508
00:35:44.340 --> 00:35:46.139
Yeah, there's a chance here.

509
00:35:47.579 --> 00:35:49.199
Ah, yes.

510
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:56.400
So Uzami, Uzani, his army at Lashmir. which sounds like a town in India, doesn't it?

511
00:35:56.460 --> 00:36:04.199
But so maybe we, it's like the Mahabarata, which is another great epic, like this massive epic, which has battles and things in it as well.

512
00:36:04.260 --> 00:36:17.820
I think Manosky's got a thing about language, you know, because obviously he wrote masks, which is another episode which does lean into sort of an unknowable culture that they're trying to unpick.

513
00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:29.460
But he also wrote Nemesis for series 4 of Voyager, where Chakotay's on a planet with his army, and they all talk in this sort of form of metaphor or simile.

514
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:37.019
Um, and Chakotah's trying to figure out who they're fighting and what the situation is just through, you know, the way that they're expressing themselves.

515
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:40.679
I think it's it is something he's really interested in.

516
00:36:40.739 --> 00:36:43.380
This is his best stabbing.

517
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:45.719
Ah, so Kath, his eyes uncovered.

518
00:36:45.780 --> 00:36:47.880
He's so excited.

519
00:36:47.940 --> 00:36:50.519
At this point. we've sort of figured out.

520
00:36:50.579 --> 00:36:52.860
You know, what are you saying each time?

521
00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:57.780
So we're going, okay, you're saying, finally, he fucking realised this, finally. what that means.

522
00:36:57.840 --> 00:36:58.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

523
00:36:58.860 --> 00:37:00.239
That was a great shot there.

524
00:37:00.420 --> 00:37:02.820
Yeah, yeah, I think it looks really good.

525
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:06.780
We can't be beamed away No, it's just beating the shit out of you.

526
00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:08.340
I was screaming at my TV.

527
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:09.480
No, shouldn't have back.

528
00:37:09.539 --> 00:37:10.139
Send him back.

529
00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:12.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

530
00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:18.900
And this is all fear in, you know, like we can't trust the Tamarians because we can't understand them.

531
00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:22.380
And so we can't just let them do whatever they like to the captain.

532
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:24.119
We really have to do something to rescue.

533
00:37:24.179 --> 00:37:26.460
I think this is beautifully directed by the way.

534
00:37:26.519 --> 00:37:30.780
There's stuff happening in the foreground while Picard is disappearing in the background.

535
00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:38.639
Like this where Dathon falls to the ground in front of Picard as he's being transported up.

536
00:37:38.699 --> 00:37:40.920
Like Dathon falls into shot.

537
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:43.079
And I think there's some, I don't know who does this.

538
00:37:43.139 --> 00:37:44.099
Is it Rick Colby?

539
00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:44.760
I can't remember.

540
00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:47.519
I think it's solidly done.

541
00:37:47.579 --> 00:37:49.139
I can't remember now.

542
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:50.340
It is great.

543
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:51.000
And you know what?

544
00:37:51.059 --> 00:37:53.880
The shot there is Riker from Below with Wharf behind him.

545
00:37:53.940 --> 00:37:56.699
These 2 idiotic men, but are getting everything wrong.

546
00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:04.380
But I, like, I actually think that they're, like, we never blame them and the point is never made to write.

547
00:38:04.500 --> 00:38:06.659
You know, that's right.

548
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:13.619
But I think they do represent, you know, another human impulse, but we don't, you know.

549
00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:18.659
Yeah, that, you know, where the where the monster rises up into shot in front of Picard.

550
00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:28.559
I think all of that on location stuff is really good, and I think the monster benefits, because it is a bit stupid from being just very well directed.

551
00:38:28.619 --> 00:38:32.039
Poor, poor, poor days on.

552
00:38:32.099 --> 00:38:33.900
When the monster was attacking him.

553
00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:35.280
It was just going and going.

554
00:38:35.340 --> 00:38:36.599
It just kept hearing them.

555
00:38:36.659 --> 00:38:42.300
So for once, I actually believe someone's in a bit of trouble, you know, in these action sequences in 90s trek.

556
00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:48.780
Oh, you know, it's usually Ned Quint falling down some stairs with some electricity going around it or something like that, you know.

557
00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:55.860
Oh, this is the scene where they talk about Romeo and Juliet and the context of the language.

558
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:58.980
I just thought this was terrific dialogue.

559
00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:02.820
Because initially I was like, why is Dr. Bevan here?

560
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:05.460
Obviously, she's a bit she's a bit of a romantic, isn't she?

561
00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:09.480
So she's going to bring in her Shakespearean illusions.

562
00:39:09.659 --> 00:39:11.159
Yeah.

563
00:39:11.219 --> 00:39:14.159
So I think she's there for contractual reasons.

564
00:39:14.219 --> 00:39:18.780
Isn't she like basically everyone has to be in every episode and so she has to appear.

565
00:39:18.900 --> 00:39:27.539
But she could have just turned up and said, oh, I'm getting readings that Captain Picard is, you know, in danger and needs medical attention or something.

566
00:39:27.659 --> 00:39:29.820
Instead, they actually make a part of the discussion.

567
00:39:30.179 --> 00:39:31.559
Yeah.

568
00:39:31.619 --> 00:39:32.400
Yeah.

569
00:39:34.139 --> 00:39:39.300
And I think we forget how superb Lavar is as well.

570
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:46.739
The way that he delivers that technobabble, like it just never seems crappy.

571
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:48.300
Like he, he means it.

572
00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:49.320
He understands it.

573
00:39:49.380 --> 00:39:52.500
There's, he really sells it properly.

574
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:54.900
I don't think they ever get the chief engineer wrong, you know.

575
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:58.860
Scotty, Geordie, O'Brien, Torres.

576
00:39:58.980 --> 00:40:03.599
And it's got to be someone that can deliver that fucking Jet Reno.

577
00:40:03.719 --> 00:40:05.159
Trino trip.

578
00:40:05.219 --> 00:40:11.099
Yeah, it's got to be someone who can deliver that dreadful Technobabble exposition. but convincingly.

579
00:40:11.159 --> 00:40:12.179
Like it means something.

580
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:16.380
You know, they're the ones that get all of the insert technobabble here lines.

581
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:17.880
Yeah, yeah.

582
00:40:17.940 --> 00:40:23.219
But I think that I think LeVar is a really, really, like he's just terribly good at it.

583
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:27.960
He just seems, it was it was ridiculous not having a chief engineer in series one.

584
00:40:28.019 --> 00:40:29.699
It's beautiful.

585
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:34.920
Like he's a beautiful man, but I also think he's extraordinarily good at what he does on this show.

586
00:40:34.980 --> 00:40:40.559
He's good until they give him a romance, and they make that suggestion that LeVar Burton couldn't pull a chick.

587
00:40:40.619 --> 00:40:41.280
I mean, come on.

588
00:40:41.340 --> 00:40:42.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

589
00:40:42.599 --> 00:40:43.860
Oh, they take away his eyes.

590
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:48.239
I still can't believe they took away his, he has got the most beautiful eyes in television.

591
00:40:48.300 --> 00:40:49.500
Yeah.

592
00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:50.219
Yeah.

593
00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:51.239
It's a crime.

594
00:40:51.300 --> 00:40:51.840
You know.

595
00:40:51.900 --> 00:40:53.280
Yeah.

596
00:40:53.340 --> 00:40:57.420
But he still manages to act without being able to use them.

597
00:40:57.539 --> 00:41:00.059
She said Julia up on the balcony without any context.

598
00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:01.739
The image has no meaning.

599
00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:03.119
Yeah.

600
00:41:03.179 --> 00:41:03.659
Yeah.

601
00:41:05.460 --> 00:41:06.960
Gosh.

602
00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:09.000
You know what, right?

603
00:41:09.059 --> 00:41:10.739
when we were watching PowerPlay and things like this.

604
00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:12.539
I mean, there was just none of this in that, was there?

605
00:41:12.599 --> 00:41:13.559
It was just people...

606
00:41:13.619 --> 00:41:14.579
No.

607
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:18.780
There was a lot of tech about more in that, but there wasn't there wasn't any smiles.

608
00:41:19.500 --> 00:41:22.860
So we're at an ampas here, aren't we?

609
00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:30.300
Like we can't understand the Tamarians because we don't know their mythology.

610
00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:39.960
And so we have a universal translator that translates their language, but we can't translate their thought because their language is just full of these literary references.

611
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:43.500
Would we understand their mythology?

612
00:41:43.739 --> 00:41:46.019
Probably not, no.

613
00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:52.739
Well, but it does seem to be hunters and islands and beasts. broad strokes that we understand, yes.

614
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:53.280
Yeah.

615
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:53.820
Yeah.

616
00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:57.480
I want to ask you about the design of the Tamarians.

617
00:41:57.539 --> 00:41:59.219
Okay, sorry to bring it down to this level.

618
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:09.059
But I really feel like we're giving these bizarre pufferfish aliens with blowholes a pass because they're in an episode that's incredibly written.

619
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:09.840
It's really good.

620
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:11.460
Well, they do live fucking stupid.

621
00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:12.420
I'm sorry.

622
00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:16.019
Well, they've got big giant nostrils. quite know what's going on there.

623
00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:18.119
They've got blow holes in the side of the raids.

624
00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:25.679
But enough of their face is, like, they don't have lots of nostrils, you know, like we've certainly seen considerably worse than that.

625
00:42:25.739 --> 00:42:28.800
And, you know, these aren't much worse than the Klingons.

626
00:42:28.860 --> 00:42:30.539
They look a bit like the Mocklin, actually.

627
00:42:30.539 --> 00:42:31.980
They do.

628
00:42:33.059 --> 00:42:35.159
Yeah, so it's not that terrible, I think.

629
00:42:35.219 --> 00:42:36.840
I'll just say something though, right?

630
00:42:36.900 --> 00:42:38.820
I was so bewitched by the performers.

631
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:41.519
That's the 1st time I've noticed how massive the nostrils are.

632
00:42:41.579 --> 00:42:43.139
Yeah, yeah.

633
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:50.639
But this, I think, is absolutely the central scene, isn't this the most important scene of the episode?

634
00:42:50.699 --> 00:42:55.619
So this is the one where Picard sits down.

635
00:42:55.739 --> 00:43:05.460
No, no, but even before that, with his patience and his imagination, he's sitting down and trying to learn what the story is.

636
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:08.099
And he does learn it, doesn't he?

637
00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:14.760
Like he learns that the 2 men, Darmok and Gelard, you know, come to the island separately.

638
00:43:14.820 --> 00:43:23.760
They encounter the beast at Tanagra, and then they leave together, and so he's able to understand the outlines of the story.

639
00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:26.400
It's so wonderful.

640
00:43:26.460 --> 00:43:27.599
That line.

641
00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:31.559
Paul, who is, yeah, the character is injured at this point.

642
00:43:31.619 --> 00:43:34.800
And he's still full of good humour, you know?

643
00:43:34.860 --> 00:43:36.360
He's wonderful.

644
00:43:36.420 --> 00:43:42.780
He really sells it and he is doing bullshit alien language, but he knows what it means.

645
00:43:42.840 --> 00:43:46.739
He's clearly delivering it in a way that indicates the actor knows it.

646
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:53.760
Again, because I have driven this point home in the past. you know, and you've said Star Trek should be all about spectacle and all that. and I do get that.

647
00:43:53.820 --> 00:43:54.599
I get there.

648
00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:57.539
This has boiled down to 2 people around a campfire.

649
00:43:57.599 --> 00:44:00.059
It's an extraordinary scene.

650
00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:06.659
You could throw beautiful imagery at this and a 1000000 starships and all that, and it wouldn't be as good as it is here, you know?

651
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:15.659
But I think that also what Star Trek does is this, and this is central to Star Trek is exploring right here.

652
00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:16.559
That's exactly it.

653
00:44:16.619 --> 00:44:22.380
Yeah. exploring the galaxy and meeting new people and learning from them and finding out about them.

654
00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:27.119
And one of the things that I love about this too, is that they don't know how it turned out at the end.

655
00:44:27.179 --> 00:44:31.739
And so they kind of go, they're not new enemies, but we don't know.

656
00:44:31.800 --> 00:44:34.619
And it does look like they have the potential to be our friends.

657
00:44:34.679 --> 00:44:37.679
Sure, it is. up in Kersman track at some point, the Tamarias.

658
00:44:37.739 --> 00:44:40.980
Yeah, there's a Tamarian security officer on board the side.

659
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:41.340
There we go.

660
00:44:41.340 --> 00:44:42.840
Now we know it works out then, don't we?

661
00:44:42.900 --> 00:44:49.679
There's an episode, he's called Kashon. and it's Kayshon, his eyes open, I think, is the name of the episode.

662
00:44:49.980 --> 00:44:52.679
Does he talk like this all the way through?

663
00:44:52.739 --> 00:44:58.440
No, because he's been learning how to speak, like a federation person as well, but he does sometimes.

664
00:44:58.440 --> 00:45:04.920
Imagine they could have like this very tense action sequence and then he will say some bizarre metaphor. what does he mean?

665
00:45:04.980 --> 00:45:06.539
Yeah, yeah.

666
00:45:06.539 --> 00:45:08.880
No, they have occasionally and they've done jokey ones.

667
00:45:08.940 --> 00:45:10.079
There are additional ones too.

668
00:45:10.139 --> 00:45:15.000
And it relies on the fact that we've seen Tarmok and Darmok and we know what these things mean.

669
00:45:15.059 --> 00:45:18.360
I think if you're a fan of trait, you've seen Dahmok.

670
00:45:18.420 --> 00:45:19.800
Yeah, of course.

671
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:21.239
This is one of the biggies.

672
00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:30.539
But, you know, as well, like we've we've been occasionally um been critical of Patrick Stewart.

673
00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:32.099
Yeah, yeah.

674
00:45:32.219 --> 00:45:34.139
But like, but he's brilliant.

675
00:45:34.199 --> 00:45:35.159
This is his strength here.

676
00:45:35.219 --> 00:45:36.960
He's a storyteller, isn't he?

677
00:45:37.019 --> 00:45:43.559
So when he gets to tell the story of Gilgamesh in a minute, he just gets into it in such an expressive way.

678
00:45:43.619 --> 00:45:46.320
I was like, I'm watching an episode of this.

679
00:45:46.380 --> 00:45:47.400
You know what I mean?

680
00:45:47.519 --> 00:45:47.820
Yeah.

681
00:45:47.820 --> 00:45:50.099
Well, this is this is him working it out.

682
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:57.179
He's actually worked it out, not just how to communicate with him, but what this strange incomprehensible behaviour has been about.

683
00:45:57.239 --> 00:45:59.219
You and me here at Eladrell.

684
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:06.360
But there is a difference between this which is leaning into Patrick Stewart's sort of theatrical strengths.

685
00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:12.239
And there's an episode that starts where they're playing out a Shakespearean seeing Data and Picard.

686
00:46:12.300 --> 00:46:14.880
I think it's Henry the 5th or something like that.

687
00:46:14.940 --> 00:46:23.579
They, you know, they, they do a whole 10th and it's so, it's so indulgent and it really has, yeah, yeah. nothing to do with the episode at all.

688
00:46:23.639 --> 00:46:26.400
No, it does because it's Henry.

689
00:46:26.460 --> 00:46:32.400
It's Henry, in disguise, speaking to his men who are about to go into battle.

690
00:46:33.059 --> 00:46:39.059
I can't remember, but I do remember Picard quoting from that scene again when he's in a similar situation.

691
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:41.519
Oh, God, it still feels incredibly indulgent.

692
00:46:41.579 --> 00:46:42.719
I don't think it's all out.

693
00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:43.500
And it's a bit boring.

694
00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:44.340
This is brilliant.

695
00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:48.719
Whereas this is, yeah, this is, this is what he does, isn't it?

696
00:46:48.780 --> 00:46:51.719
This is what Patrick Stewart does. stands on stage and delivers.

697
00:46:52.860 --> 00:47:06.719
But the thing is, and the thing that is incredible, and it seems if memory alpha is, if memory alpha is to be believed that it's an accident, but they tell the story of Gilgamesh and Nkidu.

698
00:47:06.780 --> 00:47:11.460
And Enkidu dies in the battle with the Bull of Heaven or whatever it is.

699
00:47:11.639 --> 00:47:15.539
And that's when we hear about that.

700
00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:23.880
And when we hear what Gilgamesh says on Enkidu's death, that's when Dathon dies.

701
00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:27.000
And so Picard is saying that about Dathon.

702
00:47:27.059 --> 00:47:37.800
And I just found this scene so moving because again, it's about 2 people who come together, you know, 2 different people who come together, they fight.

703
00:47:37.860 --> 00:47:44.579
They learn to, you know, they end up as brothers and they fight this monster together, one of them ties.

704
00:47:44.699 --> 00:48:04.980
Look at look at Dathon's reaction when he says, Gilgamesh and Enkidu at Uruk, and he understands it, and he's smiling like, this isn't a bad death for him because he's taught Picard to understand the sort of stories that are the basis of his whole way of thinking about the world.

705
00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:09.239
It's I just found this incredibly good.

706
00:48:09.300 --> 00:48:11.219
Smiling.

707
00:48:11.219 --> 00:48:12.599
I'm saying, Gilgamesh.

708
00:48:12.659 --> 00:48:14.760
It's beautiful, isn't it?

709
00:48:14.820 --> 00:48:18.119
It's so beautiful Yeah.

710
00:48:18.119 --> 00:48:25.860
This, look. so David's dying and and Picard is talking about Ankidu dying as well.

711
00:48:25.980 --> 00:48:28.320
Wept bitter tears.

712
00:48:28.380 --> 00:48:29.280
Yeah.

713
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:36.599
Oh, and he's still, he's still talking, he's still telling him as he's talking. was my companion.

714
00:48:36.659 --> 00:48:37.559
Yeah.

715
00:48:37.619 --> 00:48:43.260
Oh, and and the thing is...

716
00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:44.639
Yeah, I know.

717
00:48:44.699 --> 00:48:46.019
I know.

718
00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:48.420
Because we're the same as them.

719
00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:50.579
We're the same as the Tamarians, you know.

720
00:48:51.840 --> 00:49:08.519
And Dathon gives his life for the sake of reaching out to new people, for the sake of getting to know, uh, you know, to make contact with us because again, that's why they're like us.

721
00:49:08.579 --> 00:49:18.659
And I just think it's extraordinary that, you know, like I know that you're a big fan of the kind of gritty, cynical aspects of Star Trek.

722
00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:21.539
But this is what I want.

723
00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:23.880
This is the sort of thing that I want.

724
00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:27.599
There's no reason you can't have both.

725
00:49:27.659 --> 00:49:29.039
No, that's true.

726
00:49:29.099 --> 00:49:32.280
But this is this is what I want Star Trek to be.

727
00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:36.599
And Star Trek is less about this than sometimes we think it is.

728
00:49:36.719 --> 00:49:42.900
Well, I think Star Trek is more often, you know, like you say, you know, risable space problems.

729
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:45.599
Yeah, yeah, that's fine, you know.

730
00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:46.440
But you know what?

731
00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:53.039
Props for them. you know, to give in the audience some credit to actually, you know, go through.

732
00:49:53.099 --> 00:49:59.760
This is quite a slow paced episode and it's quite a smart episode and, you know, you do need a bit of patience to watch it.

733
00:49:59.880 --> 00:50:03.300
And so I give them some credit for putting this out.

734
00:50:03.300 --> 00:50:06.000
Because this isn't what they normally do, really.

735
00:50:06.059 --> 00:50:14.400
Well, but no, I mean, Star Trek the Next Generation moves at a pretty stately pace by modern television standards.

736
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:21.000
But we do get a tour where they just have to throw in an action sequence just because, you know, it's been too slow for 10 minutes.

737
00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:22.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

738
00:50:22.980 --> 00:50:24.480
I don't think that's a bad instinct.

739
00:50:24.599 --> 00:50:29.099
Well, I think this is using that sort of snail's pace in a smart way.

740
00:50:29.159 --> 00:50:35.099
I mean, we had a fight scene and we, we, having, look, we're firing on the Tamarians now.

741
00:50:35.219 --> 00:50:46.019
You know, Michael Piller says that this episode has everything. philosophy, dealing with language and what it does for us, great acting performances, a monster, and a space.

742
00:50:46.139 --> 00:50:47.039
Look at these, look at that.

743
00:50:47.099 --> 00:50:58.139
The monster, which just sort of like lifts its arms up and then runs out of shot when Picard disappears and goes to grab him and that's the one shot of the monster that I think looks so stupid.

744
00:50:58.199 --> 00:51:02.219
I just love it so much Curse is spoiled again.

745
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:03.780
Yes, that's exactly it.

746
00:51:03.900 --> 00:51:07.800
That's what he's saying in Ellentrell monster language.

747
00:51:08.219 --> 00:51:10.500
Which I can understand as well.

748
00:51:10.679 --> 00:51:16.440
I think you do have to be quite a confident show to put out something like this as well.

749
00:51:16.500 --> 00:51:22.739
You know, and I think next year at this point, it is riding high and...

750
00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:23.639
Yeah.

751
00:51:23.699 --> 00:51:25.079
Well, it just does this very well.

752
00:51:25.139 --> 00:51:27.119
I mean, I think it strives to do this.

753
00:51:27.179 --> 00:51:33.300
There's episodes quite early on that are talky or that are exploring some philosophical thing.

754
00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:42.179
You know, think about measure of a man in series 2, which is by no means a good season, but has ambitions to say something about the human condition or whatever.

755
00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:45.300
I mean, I think every single episode of the series one is trying.

756
00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:47.159
It's like...

757
00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:49.320
This is the aspirations.

758
00:51:49.380 --> 00:51:52.920
But they've just, they've basically gone to a point where they've honed their craft.

759
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:58.980
Yeah, so we're really cross and then Picard says, shut up.

760
00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:00.719
And that's the other thing too.

761
00:52:00.780 --> 00:52:03.659
Like, the River Taymark in winter is be quiet.

762
00:52:03.719 --> 00:52:09.420
And we can understand this conversation now, can't we?

763
00:52:09.480 --> 00:52:10.139
Yes, we can.

764
00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:15.539
We couldn't understand the 1st conversation, but now we can. clever, isn't it?

765
00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:17.699
It's good. isn't it?

766
00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:19.739
So, Kath, his eyes open.

767
00:52:20.159 --> 00:52:22.500
That's what Dathon said.

768
00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:27.179
I think we understand every character throughout this, we understand the journey.

769
00:52:27.239 --> 00:52:30.179
And that's why we now understand the language.

770
00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:31.139
It's so clever.

771
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:33.480
Yeah, it's good, isn't it?

772
00:52:33.539 --> 00:52:36.539
And then this this ritual that they perform.

773
00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:39.539
And it's not the 1st ritual as well because there's ritual involved here.

774
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:44.219
So this ritual when they hear about Dathon's death.

775
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:53.039
And you remember the ritual that Dathon was performing where he put those things to his forehead and then put them in a circle around his campsite or his bed?

776
00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:55.920
Carl doesn't at the end, doesn't he?

777
00:52:55.980 --> 00:53:00.119
Yeah, it's never explained or commented on, but it is another thing as well.

778
00:53:00.179 --> 00:53:02.280
You know, they have myth and ritual.

779
00:53:02.340 --> 00:53:09.179
And these are very basic things about what it is to be human and that's what this episode's investigating.

780
00:53:09.239 --> 00:53:12.719
And so putting the rituals in there and not commenting on them is good.

781
00:53:12.780 --> 00:53:13.739
And I love this as well.

782
00:53:13.800 --> 00:53:15.000
You keep it.

783
00:53:15.300 --> 00:53:18.000
I think I've said this to you before.

784
00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:19.260
These aliens in Star Trek.

785
00:53:19.320 --> 00:53:22.980
Some of them seem tailor made for the episode that they're in and they don't exist beyond it.

786
00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:28.860
Others feel as if they have a whole life outside of the episode that they're in.

787
00:53:28.920 --> 00:53:34.199
And like you say, little details like that, the religion, the mythology, it all helps.

788
00:53:34.260 --> 00:53:38.699
It all builds up and I just adore this final shot, Picard at the window.

789
00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:39.900
Yeah.

790
00:53:39.960 --> 00:53:47.639
Is it is it a thing where because they're incomprehensible to everyone else it's super important to them to reach out?

791
00:53:47.699 --> 00:53:51.900
They go to these lengths because people can't understand them?

792
00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:56.880
Like, I don't know, just in case somebody else does and there's conflict.

793
00:53:56.940 --> 00:54:08.880
No, no, no, I just mean that because the Tamarians are incomprehensible and they're incomprehensible to the sort of people that you can just use in it, there's Homeric hymns.

794
00:54:08.940 --> 00:54:11.400
I wondered why it was the Homeric hymns.

795
00:54:11.460 --> 00:54:13.559
I think I'm quite a challenge, you know.

796
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:20.400
He likes, he just likes people to know that he can read classical Greek, not classical Greek, ancient Greek.

797
00:54:20.460 --> 00:54:21.719
You know, it's a flex.

798
00:54:21.780 --> 00:54:28.320
Well, he'd be like, oh, you're probably one on a classic. hold with you that book learning.

799
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:34.739
Hear some water polo. watch that Yeah, yeah, yeah.

800
00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:38.460
Yeah, so this, I think this final scene where Picard.

801
00:54:38.519 --> 00:54:42.119
Where Picard says, they've gone to these incredible lengths.

802
00:54:42.119 --> 00:54:45.119
The door is open to communicate and connect with us.

803
00:54:45.179 --> 00:54:49.320
And that's what we do in Starfleet.

804
00:54:49.380 --> 00:54:53.400
And yes, I just think that takeaway is so good.

805
00:54:53.519 --> 00:54:55.619
Very different. from series one.

806
00:54:55.679 --> 00:55:04.500
Series one, it felt very sort of empirical where they were going around civilising people and saying, right, we're going to leave them now. a bunch of drug dealers.

807
00:55:04.619 --> 00:55:05.280
Goodbye, you know.

808
00:55:05.340 --> 00:55:07.380
Now we're reaching out.

809
00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:08.519
Now we're communicating.

810
00:55:08.579 --> 00:55:09.719
Now we're trying to understand.

811
00:55:09.780 --> 00:55:11.760
Oh, that shot of Picard at the window.

812
00:55:11.820 --> 00:55:13.079
It's great.

813
00:55:13.139 --> 00:55:18.420
And the music's great here as well. in that sort of Native American wind instrument.

814
00:55:18.480 --> 00:55:21.480
So the music, is it Chataway?

815
00:55:21.539 --> 00:55:23.159
Shadowway does a lot of that.

816
00:55:23.219 --> 00:55:34.679
So I think the music, the astonishing musical queue, is the one that underlies Picard telling the story of Gilgamesh, and the music becomes...

817
00:55:34.739 --> 00:55:38.340
It's beautiful, but it just sounds ancient.

818
00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:51.300
Like, it really sells, like, I don't know if it's in one of those sort of ancient modes or something, but it really sells that this is an ancient story being told from, you know, 1000s of years ago.

819
00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:52.920
It works really well.

820
00:55:52.980 --> 00:55:55.800
And the music is so rarely interesting.

821
00:55:55.800 --> 00:56:02.159
I mean, I'm perhaps not as critical of the music of 90s trek as you are.

822
00:56:02.219 --> 00:56:14.880
But if you're never going to find sort of excitement and drama in the music, then perhaps where they're trying to do something cultural like that in a slower moment, that's going to have more of an impact on you.

823
00:56:14.940 --> 00:56:21.659
Look, I think there are real moments in the music, but generally it's not very interesting, but I thought that that music was really good.

824
00:56:21.719 --> 00:56:31.139
And I do remember at the time when Jay Chataway's name started to appear in the credits that I knew what sort of music he produced and I really liked it.

825
00:56:31.199 --> 00:56:37.679
And I do have on my shelf here the best of both worlds, CD soundtrack by Ron Jones.

826
00:56:37.739 --> 00:56:45.360
Well, I, um, I said to you, didn't I, that I went and watched, because this was a classic that lived up to its reputation.

827
00:56:45.420 --> 00:56:49.619
So I went on then to watch a couple of other classics in inverted commas.

828
00:56:49.679 --> 00:57:00.420
The visitor from DS9 and Layton image, which I think is a classic from Voyager, just to see if they lived up to, you know, I thought, oh, come on, I'm on a roll now after a night and sick play an endgame.

829
00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:02.519
One, they absolutely did.

830
00:57:02.579 --> 00:57:03.480
They were both excellent.

831
00:57:03.599 --> 00:57:10.440
The visitor has a J Chataway score and it is. beautiful.

832
00:57:10.500 --> 00:57:12.300
Like absolutely beautiful.

833
00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:22.079
So I think perhaps he was a lot better at doing the slower moving sort of character episodes than, you know, space battles.

834
00:57:22.260 --> 00:57:32.039
So for me, I just think this is so essentially Star Trek, it's so Star Trek just boiled down to Star Trek.

835
00:57:32.099 --> 00:57:33.420
There's no character stuff.

836
00:57:33.480 --> 00:57:38.820
There's no backstory, there's no big intergalactic conflict.

837
00:57:38.880 --> 00:57:41.760
It is just this very, very small scale.

838
00:57:41.820 --> 00:57:45.360
And there's a kind of proper philosophical thing.

839
00:57:45.480 --> 00:57:53.579
It has something worthwhile to say about human beings and it is about communication and connection and things.

840
00:57:53.639 --> 00:58:03.780
And I think that that's what Star Trek's about when it's at its best, for this thought, this was maybe the best episode that we've actually done so far.

841
00:58:04.380 --> 00:58:10.800
I probably would rate yesterday's enterprise is better than this.

842
00:58:10.860 --> 00:58:15.119
But I thought, but I think it's, it's doing a lot more.

843
00:58:15.179 --> 00:58:17.039
Like there's a there's a lot more happening.

844
00:58:17.159 --> 00:58:20.340
Uh, sort of yeah, in content.

845
00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:22.440
But yeah, I think you're right.

846
00:58:22.500 --> 00:58:39.360
And I often think that Star Trek is at its best when it simplifies things and puts 2 people in the room. 2 fucking good actors in a room and gives them interesting things to say, which is surprising really because of how much I love, you know?

847
00:58:39.599 --> 00:58:42.059
It's not. in all the space.

848
00:58:42.119 --> 00:58:44.880
But no, they could do it too with things like duet and walls and things like that.

849
00:58:44.940 --> 00:58:46.260
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

850
00:58:46.380 --> 00:58:46.860
Progress.

851
00:58:46.980 --> 00:58:48.599
But in terms of the next generation.

852
00:58:48.659 --> 00:58:52.980
I mean, this is top tier trek. absolutely phenomenal.

853
00:58:56.460 --> 00:59:08.219
All right, we've reached the end of the episode, so it's time to work out what we're doing next, and it's my turn to go to untitled Star Trek project.com slash randomiser and press the button.

854
00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:10.380
So Joe, ask me what we're doing.

855
00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:12.179
Nathan, what are we doing?

856
00:59:12.239 --> 00:59:15.059
We are doing Kurtzman track.

857
00:59:15.179 --> 00:59:16.260
Oh, yeah.

858
00:59:16.260 --> 00:59:21.239
So, I had a feeling we might be going in this direction. all Yeah, it's been a while.

859
00:59:21.300 --> 00:59:22.260
All of it.

860
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:30.960
We're just going to sit down and watch it from Discovery episode one all the way through to the most recent lower decks with peanut hamper in it.

861
00:59:31.260 --> 00:59:32.400
Oh, actually, there might be one hour.

862
00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:34.860
Oh, I hope we get the one where Lower Decks goes to DS9.

863
00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:35.639
Off you go.

864
00:59:36.059 --> 00:59:37.619
All right.

865
00:59:37.679 --> 00:59:38.219
Yes.

866
00:59:38.280 --> 00:59:39.719
Okay.

867
00:59:39.780 --> 00:59:44.400
Now, as usual, we have terrible difficulty working out what an episode is from its title.

868
00:59:44.460 --> 00:59:45.719
Yeah, we may...

869
00:59:45.719 --> 00:59:49.559
Only that you won't know that. because Nathan's very good at editing.

870
00:59:49.619 --> 00:59:50.099
Yeah.

871
00:59:50.159 --> 00:59:57.659
Well, because they only have on the screen titles if they're prodigy and lower decks, only the animated ones at on-screen title.

872
00:59:57.719 --> 00:59:58.800
So, yeah.

873
00:59:58.860 --> 01:00:00.840
All right, here goes.

874
01:00:01.199 --> 01:00:03.239
Oh, this is good.

875
01:00:04.199 --> 01:00:08.639
This is Star Trek Discovery, season four, episode five.

876
01:00:08.699 --> 01:00:18.059
It's called the Examples, and it is an absolutely classic Star Trek moral dilemma.

877
01:00:18.119 --> 01:00:19.920
It's like, oh, yes.

878
01:00:19.980 --> 01:00:24.539
Yeah, it's a really solid. it's virtually a standalone episode.

879
01:00:24.599 --> 01:00:39.659
And it is, I think Discovery season 4 is its best season, and I've already said heaps and heaps of times that I think Discovery season 4 ends in a magnificent way, which is partly inspired by Darmark, I think.

880
01:00:39.719 --> 01:00:44.280
But this is, it's absolutely as Star Trek as possible.

881
01:00:44.340 --> 01:00:56.039
Like it could be an original Star Trek episode, but it's all done with, you know, the production sensibilities of Kurtzman. things.

882
01:00:56.099 --> 01:00:57.840
It's called the examples.

883
01:00:57.960 --> 01:01:01.800
Okay, is it our moral dilemma of, you know, tubixes?

884
01:01:01.920 --> 01:01:03.960
No, no.

885
01:01:04.019 --> 01:01:23.400
So it's a, no, they come across a society that organises itself in a particular way that they find problematic and they have to rescue people who are under some kind of an environmental threat, but the people don't want to take certain people with them and those people are the examples.

886
01:01:23.460 --> 01:01:26.039
It's really very Star Treky.

887
01:01:26.099 --> 01:01:28.380
Oh, this sounds amazingly good.

888
01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:34.199
This sounds like the sort of episodes where you and me are going to have 2 different readings on it and we're going to argue our points of view.

889
01:01:34.260 --> 01:01:36.719
That sounds terrific.

890
01:01:36.780 --> 01:01:37.619
Yeah, well, you know what?

891
01:01:37.679 --> 01:01:43.559
I often find the moral dilemma episodes of trek to be the more interesting ones, you know.

892
01:01:43.619 --> 01:02:02.219
Yeah, it's the absolutely classic thing where you set up a society to make a point, you know, like critical care or, or my favourite one is children of time, where it's like, if we go back, 7000 people will be dead, like, you know.

893
01:02:02.280 --> 01:02:03.300
Yeah, yeah.

894
01:02:03.360 --> 01:02:05.880
No, so this isn't putting them in a moral dilemma.

895
01:02:05.940 --> 01:02:13.739
This is the one where you come across a society that has a particular structure and you use that society to comment on our morality and stuff like that.

896
01:02:13.800 --> 01:02:17.579
So, yeah, it's a sort of fairly classic Star Trek thing, I think.

897
01:02:17.639 --> 01:02:19.019
Well, and you know what?

898
01:02:19.079 --> 01:02:20.460
We did series 4, didn't we?

899
01:02:20.519 --> 01:02:24.659
The episode where they were trying to get through to the computer.

900
01:02:24.840 --> 01:02:28.199
It was the mid-season break episode, wasn't it?

901
01:02:28.260 --> 01:02:29.940
Yeah, that was really good.

902
01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:31.559
So, yeah, yeah.

903
01:02:31.619 --> 01:02:32.280
Bring it on.

904
01:02:32.340 --> 01:02:33.360
Okay, let's do that.

905
01:02:33.420 --> 01:02:33.780
Awesome.

906
01:02:41.159 --> 01:02:51.719
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.

907
01:02:51.780 --> 01:02:56.699
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

908
01:02:56.760 --> 01:03:02.460
This episode was recorded on the 14th of October 2022 and released on the 21st of October.

909
01:03:02.519 --> 01:03:06.119
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Discovery, the examples.

910
01:03:24.360 --> 01:03:27.300
Hey, Joe. Hi.

911
01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:32.280
I'm gonna do that again, 'cause that was really kind of low key, and then you came in with, like, a mess.

912
01:03:32.340 --> 01:03:34.679
You have been low key for a couple of weeks of your age, you know?

913
01:03:34.679 --> 01:03:35.400
I actually noticed that.

914
01:03:36.300 --> 01:03:38.039
Yeah, yeah, let's let's try it.

915
01:03:38.159 --> 01:03:39.840
You used to be some zip in there.

916
01:03:39.960 --> 01:03:48.239
Hey, Joe. I don't think I ever quite reached those levels. but somewhere between what I just did and what you did.

917
01:03:48.300 --> 01:03:51.119
Nobody podcast quite as enthusiastically as me, you know.

918
01:03:52.679 --> 01:03:54.659
All right, here goes.

919
01:03:54.719 --> 01:03:57.480
Hey, Joe. Hi.

920
01:03:57.599 --> 01:04:02.219
So last week, we expressed the fear.

921
01:04:03.599 --> 01:04:05.039
Yeah.

922
01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:13.380
So last week we expressed some apprehension about Darmok, insofar as we, oh, fucking hell.

923
01:04:13.440 --> 01:04:14.639
Why am I saying insofar as?

924
01:04:14.639 --> 01:04:18.059
I don't know, because you're now shaked. because you've watched this episode.

925
01:04:18.119 --> 01:04:19.260
That's right.

926
01:04:23.400 --> 01:04:27.119
So last week, I expressed some concern.