WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-01 at 21:20:19

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Hey, Joe. Hi.

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So last week, I expressed some concern that watching Darmok might

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be a bit of a problem because we both thought it was really great

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the way that we did with PowerPlay, but then watching PowerPlay

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demonstrated to us that it wasn't really very good at all.

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And we were worried that we would spoil just a classic episode

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that we really liked by actually watching it again.

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Is that what happened?

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No, not at all.

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In fact, I've been through this procedure many times for our

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untitled Star Trek project where I've said, oh my god, that

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episode is amazing.

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I mean, for my reaction to before and after.

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I was like, oh, that is the Voyager episode of all time.

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And then we spent an hour and a half bitching about the thing.

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Oh, yeah.

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No, this was incredibly good.

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Like, seriously, properly the best episode we have covered since

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the Doomsday machine good.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I may even raided above the Doomsday Machine.

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I think it is one of the best Star Trek episodes ever.

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And I think this time.

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I think this time watching it, I liked it much more than I ever

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have before.

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I thought it was even stronger than I did on previous viewings.

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And I have watched this one over and over again because it is

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really superb.

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I've probably written this off as thought of worthy in the past.

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But now I'm a mature man with, you know, much more thoughtful

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ideas on life.

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I just thought this was so considered, so intelligent.

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Um, and uh, would you indulge me because this had a fair gestation

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period, this episode.

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It went for a couple of hands.

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And of course, you know who ended up with the assignment, don't

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you?

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As a Germanoski?

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of masks fame and, you know, every the Thor, every weird episode

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of Star Trek you could possibly think of.

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Reliable pair of hands.

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So by all accounts, a pillar was very enamoured with the

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concepts.

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Like Rick Berman hated it.

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He's like, no, there's no Borgs in there.

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Oh, nothing.

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Yeah, yeah, no sexy women.

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What's going on?

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And the original idea was, uh, it says here that Philip LeBesnik's

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story involved members of an away team, who in turn, each meet a

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mysterious alien boy drawing in the dirt, the boy greeted each of

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the team with a single word Darmok.

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And regardless of the response, the crew member was catapulted

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into the orbit of a strange cocoon.

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Okay, that sounds very Joe Manosky.

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But at the end, Picard realises that Darmark meant play sits down

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and tries to understand the dialogue of the child.

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So that was kind of the basic premise of, you know, 2 races coming

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together and they can't communicate.

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And it went through, they kind of waited, they sat on the premise

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for ages.

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Michael Piller saw dances with wolves, and he was completely blown

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away with the scene with Kevin Costner's character and the native

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American warrior sitting around the campfire.

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And he's like, no, no, we can really do this.

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And then Manosky was sent away basically and said, right, just

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write the hell out of this.

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And this is what he came up with.

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And once all the dust had settled and this had gone out, them and

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then said, I was wrong, this is one of the best episodes of Star

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Trek we've ever done.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, well, I think it is.

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And I think I think for me there's 2 reasons for that.

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One is that it is absolutely about what Star Trek should be about

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which is about seeking out new life and new civilisations, you

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know, literally finding a completely different culture and seeking

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to work out what commonalties we have with them and getting to

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know them in a peaceful way.

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And so what Picard does here is exactly what Star Trek is about.

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It's central to what Star Trek is.

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And I can think of 2 examples of that in recent Star Trek, which

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was the 2nd episode of Strange New Worlds, where, although it was

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on the...

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Yeah, like trying to understand what those sounds meant and how to

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communicate with whatever was going on inside that comet.

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And then also at the end of Discovery season 4 where they have to

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try and learn how to communicate with the 10 C, who are weirdly

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strangely different from us in a completely new way.

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Do you remember what that episode was called?

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The 2nd discovery.

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I'm not discovering 2nd street.

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Okay, because I just thought with that episode, it was just so

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perfect.

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The way they married, the concept of communicating with this thing

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the beauty of the episode and the amount of character were that

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was going on in it.

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Like it just sung on every level.

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I think I was like, I can't believe this is the 2nd episode of

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this show.

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Well, really, they've done all their learning through discovery

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and all the other shows that they put out to that point.

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But this episode as well.

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Like, I know you're going to say there isn't much character work

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in this, that there's a lot of procedure and not a lot of

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character.

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I think Picard's characterised, especially well in this.

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Well, when I say there's no character, there's no scenes that seem

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to be primarily about telling us what sort of people we have here

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well, because we know them.

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This is series 5.

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Exactly.

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We know them.

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And so what we just see is them being good at their jobs in a way

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that we expect them to be and them expressing viewpoints that we

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expect them to express.

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And we'll talk more about that going on because I think that's

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actually particularly interesting.

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But I just wanted to say the 2nd thing about the episode that I

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think makes it great.

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And that is that it's an episode about the importance of

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storytelling as a way of communicating with one another.

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And the example that Beverly gives that is like the children of

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Tamar is Shakespeare.

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And by the end of the episode, Picard is reading the Homeric hymns

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which aren't actually by Homer, but which are about the Greek gods

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and the Greek gods are an important shared part of our culture.

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We get the epic of Gilgamesh.

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We have the Old Testament.

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You know, the myths in the Old Testament, all of these stories

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that are part of our culture and that help us to understand

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ourselves.

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And then just seeing that made the major feature of an alien

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culture and the way that Picard reaches out to that alien culture

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because it turns out we do the same thing.

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I think it's magnificently good.

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Do you know, uh, in devising the, was it Tamarian, Tamarian?

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Yeah, Tamarian, I think.

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Tamarian language.

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Manosky was inspired.

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This is our memory alpha, right?

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inspired by 3 sources.

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Can you guess who they were?

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No.

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Oh, okay.

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Well, you could be choosing from the entire body of human

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history.

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Is the Iliad?

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You've got the work of psychologist James Hillman. who emphasised

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all his metaphor.

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The quote, every word is a poem from translator and poet.

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John...

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I want to say Chiardi, Ciardi, and the dense historical metaphors

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present in Chinese poetry and philosophical works such as the I

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Ching.

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Yeah, you see, for me though, I think that when they refer to

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what's going on in Tamerian culture, they actually struggle to

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find the right words because I don't think these are metaphors, are

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they?

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They are literary illusions.

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This is a culture that communicates entirely through, you know, the

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through talking about heroes and events in its shared mythology.

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And I think about, you know, the Greeks, the way that the ancient

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Greeks used the Iliad and the Odyssey, that they had all read it.

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They wrote stories around based on characters from those epics and

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they referred to those epics all the time.

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I'm reading, I'm reading a poem with my senior Latin class that

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refers to an elder called Eucalagon, and he's only ever mentioned

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in a Nid book 2, and he's the Trojan leader who lives next door

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whose house burns down, and you can just throw Eucalagon into a

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Roman poem, and the Roman reader will know, oh, that's the guy

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whose house burnt down.

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This must be about how our next door neighbor's house burns down.

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And it's exactly that sort of thing, that we all have a culture

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that's full of these sort of weird, rich illusions.

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Have you had a friend who is learning English and comes from

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somewhere completely different and understands the words we say

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but has no idea about all the references that we lace our

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conversations with. frequently.

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Yeah, honestly.

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I've slept with every foreigner that's come into England and we've

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gone from this every single time, you know?

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Don't worry.

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Everyone understands the motion of a bloke job, though.

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Don't worry.

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Honestly, Nathan, you're so smart.

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You make me feel so horny.

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Seriously Christ.

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Keep talking.

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But even Dr. Bev has a brilliant line in this where they're

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talking about metaphor and then she chips in and says, yeah, but

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if you don't understand the context of the characters that they're

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talking about, then none of it means anything.

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And actually, it led me to going on online because I was like, I

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wonder if there's any cultures out there that do talk primarily in

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metaphor.

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And as you can imagine, there is not.

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But there's a lot of sort of interesting discussion online about

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the use of metaphor and what it says about cultures.

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It's definitely something worth just type that into Google and

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have a look.

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There's a lot of really interesting. essays out there.

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Do you know what?

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We discussed this thing in a lot of death.

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We should probably start watching it at some point.

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We should probably start watching it.

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Okay, so I will count us in. 543, two, one, and we're off.

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Off we go.

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Captain Slog, Stargate, Something.

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Yeah, it's on the website.

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It's this incredible thing where this is the shot that around

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about half of Star Trek episodes start with this particular

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optical, which was presumably shot during...

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So here's Picard's new frock, which was his idea and will appear

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in season 5 and six.

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I don't think he wears it in season seven.

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I have a feeling that he leaves it on the holodeck in ship in a

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bottle, which means that everything that happens after ship in a

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bottle is actually still on the holodeck.

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How do you know?

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I mean, that's the far beyond the stars, Twitz, isn't it?

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you know, it's sort of a bit more velvety than everybody else is

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you know?

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Yeah, so it's swayed, I think.

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It's a cut above.

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Yeah, the yolks.

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Yeah, the yolks on the shoulders are sort of horribly rubbery or

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plasticky or something and they go away.

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It just becomes that suede thing.

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And he's got bell bottoms and stuff.

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It's very kind of original track.

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It's quite nice.

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Do you imagine Wolf looks back on this hippie period with his hair

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here and just cringes?

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what was I thinking?

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Why didn't I have a haircut?

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No, he's got a bob.

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No, it's before he tied it back.

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Wait, I need to tell you this, because Reich has a line there

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where he goes, ah, the children of Tarma, I figured there was just

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a myth, you know, and he's been doing this in series one.

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Back when Aldea appeared in when the bow wakes.

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He's like, 0 my God, out there.

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I thought it was just a myth that they do like doing this, don't

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they, at the beginning of an episode.

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So the very last line of that scene where Picard says, I believe

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that we are going to be able to communicate with them because what

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communication takes is patience and imagination.

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And then we cut immediately to them finding the Tamarians

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completely incomprehensible.

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Everyone's looking at each other.

252
00:12:44.340 --> 00:12:46.860
You can't look so concerned.

253
00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:48.299
He's nodding slowly.

254
00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:52.379
But it does turn out that they do have imagination and patience

255
00:12:52.379 --> 00:12:54.899
and they do find a way of communicating.

256
00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:58.980
So, you know, there's a moment in which where there's a moment

257
00:12:58.980 --> 00:13:02.580
where it looks like he's just being too kind of cocky, you know

258
00:13:02.580 --> 00:13:05.580
where, from the 24th century, we know how to communicate with

259
00:13:05.580 --> 00:13:08.399
aliens will be fine, and then he's completely baffled.

260
00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:10.500
Oh, that is a great joke, isn't it?

261
00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:11.399
Yeah.

262
00:13:11.460 --> 00:13:11.879
Yeah.

263
00:13:11.940 --> 00:13:14.279
And do you know what, for one, Troy's line is really important

264
00:13:14.279 --> 00:13:17.279
because she says, look, I sense no hostility from them.

265
00:13:17.340 --> 00:13:21.960
And that's kind of an important thing to establish in the only

266
00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:27.539
sort of drama that's here, until the monster comes along, is the

267
00:13:27.539 --> 00:13:28.740
fact that they can't communicate.

268
00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:29.940
It's not that they're threatening them.

269
00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:32.340
It's just they can't, they don't understand each other.

270
00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:35.879
No, and it's not just that they don't understand their words, but

271
00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:37.379
they've got no idea of what's going on.

272
00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:40.679
They don't know what they're doing all these things for.

273
00:13:40.740 --> 00:13:46.080
So when they transport Picard, when they transport, um, Dathon

274
00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:49.919
down to the planet, we don't know why and we perceive it as a

275
00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:52.259
threat and that becomes the tension of the episode, I think.

276
00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:54.659
Oh, Winfield performance, right?

277
00:13:54.720 --> 00:14:00.240
He puts so much worth into this dialogue.

278
00:14:00.299 --> 00:14:01.919
Like it really means some.

279
00:14:01.980 --> 00:14:02.460
No, no.

280
00:14:02.519 --> 00:14:04.559
But I want to say, because you remember, we had the cratassons

281
00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:08.879
last week, and we've had some pretty quirky aliens on untitled

282
00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:12.899
Star, the Beaumar and people like that, you know. who are nowhere

283
00:14:12.899 --> 00:14:15.000
near as convincing and they're talking normal English.

284
00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:21.059
But I actually think that the actors know what this dialogue

285
00:14:21.059 --> 00:14:21.539
means.

286
00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:26.460
And so when they say it, they look, I mean, this dialogue doesn't

287
00:14:26.460 --> 00:14:27.899
work in any sense.

288
00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:28.500
Do you know what I mean?

289
00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:29.399
Like it doesn't work.

290
00:14:29.460 --> 00:14:32.639
This is not a realistic portrayal of how anyone could possibly

291
00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:33.419
communicate.

292
00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:38.580
It is a science fiction-y thing and we've decided it's a, you know

293
00:14:38.580 --> 00:14:41.340
race that communicates in literary illusions all the time, but

294
00:14:41.340 --> 00:14:43.019
that doesn't really work as a language.

295
00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:46.019
You never wrote those stories about, you know, the people that

296
00:14:46.019 --> 00:14:50.340
were cut off from society, you know, not sort of kept in secluded

297
00:14:50.340 --> 00:14:50.759
areas.

298
00:14:50.820 --> 00:14:54.960
Yeah, but they all have away from sort of culture and society and

299
00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:55.440
how we talk.

300
00:14:55.500 --> 00:14:58.139
Well, if you only spoke to them in metaphor.

301
00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:00.480
Well, then they would just talk in metaphor, wouldn't they?

302
00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:04.259
No, no, no, no, because language is generated by the human brain.

303
00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:06.299
It's not purely cultural.

304
00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:08.399
It is something that we create.

305
00:15:08.460 --> 00:15:09.840
Yeah, no one invents it.

306
00:15:09.899 --> 00:15:14.639
So people develop languages and even if people are...

307
00:15:14.700 --> 00:15:17.879
Are you saying that regard, if you weren't even taught a language

308
00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:19.440
you would grow up.

309
00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:24.779
No, you, if you're young and you're not exposed to language, then

310
00:15:24.779 --> 00:15:26.340
you can never properly acquire it.

311
00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:30.419
But groups of people from different cultures who all get thrown

312
00:15:30.419 --> 00:15:33.179
into a melting pot together like happened all the time with

313
00:15:33.179 --> 00:15:37.740
colonialism, like, um, you know, in plantations and stuff where

314
00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:41.159
people from different language groups all come together.

315
00:15:41.220 --> 00:15:44.700
They're kids, like they end up developing a pigeon language and

316
00:15:44.700 --> 00:15:47.220
then a Creole and they've you learned to speak.

317
00:15:47.940 --> 00:15:48.720
I'll say in these days.

318
00:15:48.779 --> 00:15:50.220
I don't understand a word they're saying.

319
00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:51.659
They've got their own language.

320
00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:52.559
Oh, I see.

321
00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:55.320
Yeah, they always have a sound... like a fusty old man, have I?

322
00:15:55.379 --> 00:15:56.039
Just that number.

323
00:15:56.100 --> 00:15:57.779
It happens to every generation, though.

324
00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:01.440
Kids learn to speak to each other and not necessarily just to

325
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:02.399
speak to older people.

326
00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:06.480
You know, when he's holding those 2 knives up in the air like that

327
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:06.659
right?

328
00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:10.799
Now, there's nothing really about his body language is suggesting

329
00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:12.360
that he wants to fight Picard, right?

330
00:16:12.419 --> 00:16:14.340
And that was the one thing in the 1st half.

331
00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:15.480
I was like, come on.

332
00:16:15.539 --> 00:16:19.440
He's clearly not trying to fight with you But then I think, you

333
00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:21.659
know, I've seen this before, so I know how it goes down.

334
00:16:21.720 --> 00:16:25.740
Yeah, I was wondering that too, because the one criticism that I

335
00:16:25.740 --> 00:16:30.059
would have is that they are a bit slow on the uptake and I don't

336
00:16:30.059 --> 00:16:33.840
know whether that's because I've known how this episode works out

337
00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:36.059
for 30 years or something.

338
00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:41.700
I think that is the slow burn nature of this means when he does

339
00:16:41.700 --> 00:16:46.559
when they do start to communicate in a broad sort of way, is so

340
00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:47.279
satisfying.

341
00:16:47.340 --> 00:16:51.419
And the way the 2 actors play, the way Paul Winfield plays the

342
00:16:51.419 --> 00:16:56.879
moment where Picard repeats Darwak and Jalad at Attenagre. oh, he's

343
00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:58.740
got it, you know, like, thank God.

344
00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:01.980
He's so good really is great.

345
00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:03.419
He's so cute.

346
00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:03.899
Like...

347
00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:06.119
Yeah, he's so cute.

348
00:17:06.180 --> 00:17:10.200
He's so likeable. and we can't really understand him I mean, that's

349
00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:11.160
incredible.

350
00:17:11.220 --> 00:17:12.359
So it's all through body language.

351
00:17:12.420 --> 00:17:14.339
Yeah, yeah.

352
00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:16.079
And he just says a real charm to him.

353
00:17:16.140 --> 00:17:20.339
I mean, despite the pound of latex on his head, he's really

354
00:17:20.339 --> 00:17:22.500
charming and quite likeable, I think.

355
00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:25.500
I will say you might mock the fact that we've been using these

356
00:17:25.500 --> 00:17:27.660
model shots ever since encounter at PowerPoint.

357
00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:29.579
They are great model shoals.

358
00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:31.319
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

359
00:17:31.380 --> 00:17:32.579
They're just very repetitive.

360
00:17:32.700 --> 00:17:34.440
That's right.

361
00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:36.660
Deja vu, you know?

362
00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:39.299
Well, I think this looks good too.

363
00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:42.299
And I like how the Tamarian ship is much bigger and much more

364
00:17:42.299 --> 00:17:45.839
powerful than the enterprise.

365
00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:47.099
Actually, you know what?

366
00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:50.519
They have every right to be a little bit perturbed because the

367
00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:53.400
last time Picard was beamed off the bridge was when he went to the

368
00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:55.500
Borg ship and they turned him into Lacutus.

369
00:17:55.559 --> 00:17:56.640
Yeah, yeah.

370
00:17:56.700 --> 00:17:57.240
Yeah.

371
00:17:57.299 --> 00:18:01.859
So I think it's playing with Star Trek a little bit as well

372
00:18:01.859 --> 00:18:07.319
because this seems to me to be a bit like the setup for Arena.

373
00:18:07.380 --> 00:18:09.299
Oh, very much.

374
00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:12.240
The 2 people down on the canyon.

375
00:18:12.299 --> 00:18:12.779
Yeah, yeah.

376
00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:13.740
Yeah.

377
00:18:13.799 --> 00:18:17.039
And so the idea there is that they have to defeat one another

378
00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:17.400
right?

379
00:18:17.460 --> 00:18:23.400
And so here, that's kind of what, I mean, so the conflict in this

380
00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:29.940
episode really comes from Riker and Wharf want to be more

381
00:18:29.940 --> 00:18:30.599
belligerent.

382
00:18:30.660 --> 00:18:32.940
And that is convinced, isn't he?

383
00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:36.240
He's convinced this is a duel.

384
00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:38.220
Yeah, yeah.

385
00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:41.579
And like Worf exists, as I said before, to be wrong.

386
00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:45.240
He's usually wrong about these things, particularly in Star Trek

387
00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:45.720
the Next Generation.

388
00:18:45.900 --> 00:18:50.339
He spent, what, 11 seasons, being roughly wrong.

389
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:51.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

390
00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:56.279
But, but, and Riker is definitely trying not to start anything.

391
00:18:56.279 --> 00:19:00.839
You know, he wants to rescue Picard and he goes to some lengths to

392
00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:05.700
try and do that, but he doesn't want to be an aggressor.

393
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:06.660
He doesn't want to get them.

394
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:08.039
It's not like Janeway.

395
00:19:08.099 --> 00:19:08.700
Do you know what I mean?

396
00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:11.339
Janeway's in the Delta Quadrant and she just wants to blow the

397
00:19:11.339 --> 00:19:14.039
sheet out of various aliens and good for her.

398
00:19:14.099 --> 00:19:18.900
He is still trying to do the right thing and trying to resolve

399
00:19:18.900 --> 00:19:19.740
this peacefully.

400
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:21.960
And in fact, the way they time it.

401
00:19:22.019 --> 00:19:25.559
Brilliant Picard out just as that monster's attacking the other

402
00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:25.920
character.

403
00:19:25.980 --> 00:19:27.660
I'm like, no, that is genius.

404
00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:30.299
Right, that is basically the problem.

405
00:19:30.539 --> 00:19:33.119
Yeah, he's the one who's responsible.

406
00:19:33.180 --> 00:19:36.059
And I think that says something about us as well.

407
00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:40.740
You know, that Star Trek is about the instinct to build bridges

408
00:19:40.740 --> 00:19:47.160
and, um, you know, link hands across cultures and explore the

409
00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:50.460
world in a peaceful way, but human beings aren't entirely like

410
00:19:50.460 --> 00:19:50.759
that.

411
00:19:50.819 --> 00:19:55.380
And we're also, you know, scared of things that we don't

412
00:19:55.380 --> 00:20:00.599
understand and, you know, we can be pushed and so on.

413
00:20:00.660 --> 00:20:06.839
Like, like, um, close the channel, Mr. Worf and Worf says gladly

414
00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:10.440
as if now we're irritated by the fact that we can't understand

415
00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:11.220
these people.

416
00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:13.200
I was like, you know what?

417
00:20:13.259 --> 00:20:15.180
That's a sensible move, because I can't get through to it.

418
00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:15.960
Actually, no.

419
00:20:16.019 --> 00:20:18.539
If you can't communicate with somebody, then just cutting off that

420
00:20:18.539 --> 00:20:22.140
channel of communication, actually, it might be seen as an

421
00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:22.740
aggressive move.

422
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:24.119
Yeah.

423
00:20:24.180 --> 00:20:25.680
Yeah, well, screw you.

424
00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:26.819
We can't talk to you.

425
00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:30.480
So now we're on, I think we're on vacation.

426
00:20:30.539 --> 00:20:31.500
No, we know.

427
00:20:31.980 --> 00:20:33.779
So when it's dark, we're not, it's a studio.

428
00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:34.140
You know what?

429
00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:34.740
It's quite effective.

430
00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:35.940
They turn the lies right down.

431
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:36.599
Yeah, yeah.

432
00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:38.339
Well, they could never achieve this.

433
00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:40.619
They would never have been able to afford shooting at night

434
00:20:40.619 --> 00:20:44.039
outdoors like that in Star Trek and it does work pretty well.

435
00:20:44.220 --> 00:20:46.740
I think, yeah, this takes a while, doesn't it?

436
00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:52.440
A minute ago, when he threw the knife at Picard and then Picard

437
00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:55.380
threw the knife back at him, throws a bag to say, I won't fight

438
00:20:55.380 --> 00:20:55.859
with you.

439
00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:59.759
And then there's a look of utter sort of disappointment on the

440
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:00.599
Tamarian's face.

441
00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:04.619
That would be the point where I'm like, okay, he was giving me a

442
00:21:04.619 --> 00:21:04.859
gift.

443
00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:07.799
And he's going. he's going his arms wide.

444
00:21:07.859 --> 00:21:09.539
Well, come on.

445
00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:10.920
Come on.

446
00:21:11.339 --> 00:21:16.440
But again, you know, like, we know how this works.

447
00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:19.980
And, yeah, I'm wondering if like a kid would get it more, you

448
00:21:19.980 --> 00:21:20.220
know?

449
00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:22.980
Yeah, it's impossible to know now.

450
00:21:23.099 --> 00:21:24.240
Yeah.

451
00:21:24.299 --> 00:21:27.180
And he, yeah, because we, does it mean give or take?

452
00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:28.259
That means I'm giving a gift.

453
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:29.400
I'm giving, you know.

454
00:21:30.420 --> 00:21:30.660
Yeah.

455
00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:31.380
Yeah, yeah.

456
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:34.859
And so he's kind of using the proper names and stuff, which is

457
00:21:34.859 --> 00:21:38.579
what data theorised all those things were, I don't know what Kadir

458
00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:39.900
beneath Momoter means.

459
00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:41.400
What was when the wolves fail?

460
00:21:41.460 --> 00:21:42.660
Is that when you made a mistake?

461
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:46.980
So when something fails, he says Sharka when the walls fell, and

462
00:21:46.980 --> 00:21:52.200
all that makes me think of is when the Iliad is, it's not in the

463
00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:56.460
Iliad, but when in Aeneid book 2, Troy gets overrun, you know, Troy

464
00:21:56.460 --> 00:22:01.019
the Trojan War, the story that's told in the Iliad, and in its

465
00:22:01.019 --> 00:22:07.079
sort of fan fiction sequel, the Aenead, is a city with enormous

466
00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:12.359
walls that withstands a siege for, you know, 10 years and then

467
00:22:12.359 --> 00:22:17.940
finally is trick into, you know, letting enemy uh, letting enemy

468
00:22:17.940 --> 00:22:20.700
soldiers in and the city burns and the walls fall.

469
00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:25.019
And that's, you know, the, we do get the epic of Gilgamesh, but

470
00:22:25.019 --> 00:22:30.299
the Iliad and the Odyssey are some of the oldest works in Western

471
00:22:30.299 --> 00:22:33.960
literature, and they were absolutely foundational for centuries

472
00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:37.859
afterwards, and even, you know, well into our time, they're still

473
00:22:37.859 --> 00:22:39.059
hugely important.

474
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:42.900
And so having it, having, you know, that reference to a walled

475
00:22:42.900 --> 00:22:46.740
city falling, I think tells us a little bit about what the

476
00:22:46.740 --> 00:22:47.640
Tamarians are doing.

477
00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:51.000
You imagine that was what Joy Manosky was getting out then, with

478
00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:51.420
that one line?

479
00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:58.019
Well, no, but I look, I think I also think of Jericho, the walls

480
00:22:58.019 --> 00:22:59.220
of Jericho falling.

481
00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:02.400
Is that Book of Joshua?

482
00:23:02.460 --> 00:23:02.880
I don't know.

483
00:23:02.940 --> 00:23:04.140
I guess so. about Joshua.

484
00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:10.619
And again, you know, part of our just shared mythology, at least

485
00:23:10.619 --> 00:23:13.740
this is Western mythology, which is all I know very much about.

486
00:23:13.740 --> 00:23:18.000
So a big walled city falling really speaks to just that whole

487
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:22.140
mytho historical thing that all these references come from.

488
00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:24.180
Oh, straight to the Berlin wall, do you know?

489
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:27.480
Well, mind you, then you can put your own reading on this, can't

490
00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:27.660
you?

491
00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:28.740
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

492
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:32.160
Well, in fact, one of the things that this episode does, which I

493
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:32.700
think is great.

494
00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:36.359
At the end, we have Picard and Dathon at Ella Drill.

495
00:23:36.420 --> 00:23:36.900
Yeah.

496
00:23:36.900 --> 00:23:39.779
And so Star Trek becomes part of that.

497
00:23:39.779 --> 00:23:42.480
Mython historical ref.

498
00:23:42.539 --> 00:23:45.240
And of course, you know, like we have a Star Trek podcast.

499
00:23:45.299 --> 00:23:48.180
We're constantly talking shit about Star Trek all the time.

500
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:51.539
And so heaps of our shared cultural references.

501
00:23:51.539 --> 00:23:54.119
What's a Star Trek style?

502
00:23:54.180 --> 00:23:57.660
This is a perfect time for me to drop this because someone at my

503
00:23:57.660 --> 00:24:00.180
work came at me the other day and you went, I went looking for

504
00:24:00.180 --> 00:24:01.079
your podcast, you know.

505
00:24:01.140 --> 00:24:02.880
I found the one about Star Trek.

506
00:24:02.940 --> 00:24:04.619
I was like, oh, okay, how did you find it?

507
00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:06.779
He goes, I didn't understand a fucking word you were talking

508
00:24:06.779 --> 00:24:07.079
about.

509
00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:09.180
There you go.

510
00:24:09.299 --> 00:24:11.400
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it.

511
00:24:11.819 --> 00:24:14.819
Because no shared historical reference.

512
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:19.559
Oh, when you froze, can you say shark and when the walls fell?

513
00:24:19.619 --> 00:24:20.519
Yeah.

514
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:24.839
No, I said, Nathan, when the techno babble fell.

515
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:29.039
Oh, there's technobabble in this episode that I think is really

516
00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:34.799
good, by the way. we'll get there Finally, he's realising.

517
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:35.400
Giving him a gift.

518
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:36.660
He's taking the fire.

519
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:38.940
Oh, look at Paul Winfield.

520
00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:40.079
He so happy that he's got it.

521
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:41.880
Yeah, Jesus Christ.

522
00:24:41.940 --> 00:24:43.799
I thought I was going to have to come at you with the fire, you

523
00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:44.039
know?

524
00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:49.799
Yeah, he's adorable.

525
00:24:49.859 --> 00:24:52.980
So I didn't actually know this, but someone at work told me that

526
00:24:52.980 --> 00:24:56.880
he's in Star Trek 2, which I think I knew, but he's one of the

527
00:24:56.880 --> 00:24:59.700
people who gets a yearwig in his ear, him and check off.

528
00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:01.019
Very pretty, he is too.

529
00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:01.980
I must say.

530
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:02.700
Yeah, yeah.

531
00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:03.480
He's a pretty young man.

532
00:25:03.539 --> 00:25:05.759
Can I just say so, because it's something you'd normally say.

533
00:25:05.819 --> 00:25:09.539
This is the 1st appearance of the type 6 shuttlecraft in Darmox.

534
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:10.619
You know?

535
00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:13.500
I'm not sure how it differs from the type five, but you know.

536
00:25:13.500 --> 00:25:16.500
Okay, this is Ensign Gates, by the way, Drew.

537
00:25:16.500 --> 00:25:17.700
I talked to there.

538
00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:19.559
Look, he's really angry.

539
00:25:19.619 --> 00:25:22.500
What does he put his foot up on the seat like that?

540
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:27.839
That's right, a maneuver. because he's pointing his dick at Data's

541
00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:31.380
left shoulder just to let him know who's in charge.

542
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:33.720
It's kind of like, so terrible.

543
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:34.740
My dick's right here.

544
00:25:35.940 --> 00:25:38.339
I'm in charge, right?

545
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:39.180
Here's my cog.

546
00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:42.539
Yeah, yeah, that's it. right in your face.

547
00:25:43.259 --> 00:25:45.779
But Ensign Gates is over here.

548
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:48.720
He doesn't do that to Anson Gates because that would be that would

549
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:49.740
be sexual harassment.

550
00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:53.279
The story game on E, you know, between wharf and its ensign onto

551
00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:54.000
shuttlecraft.

552
00:25:54.059 --> 00:25:56.339
Well, she's not speaking to him.

553
00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:01.319
He's clearly said something inappropriate. during launch and she's

554
00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:03.420
just decided she's fucking blanking him.

555
00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:04.380
We got 5 minutes to kill.

556
00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:05.160
What do you reckon?

557
00:26:05.220 --> 00:26:09.779
I mean, I don't think Ensign Gates gets paid to say any lines here

558
00:26:09.779 --> 00:26:10.200
either.

559
00:26:10.259 --> 00:26:13.440
I will say, though, it's the 1st appearance of Ensign Robin

560
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:14.819
Leffler in this episode.

561
00:26:14.819 --> 00:26:15.599
Yeah.

562
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:21.119
It goes on to be Wesley Crusher's Squeeze in the wonderful episode

563
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:25.440
the game. which I watched this week. and that also lived up to my

564
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:26.220
memory of it.

565
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:29.700
Yeah, I mean, that's wonderful for different reasons.

566
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:32.099
And that's a very ridiculous show.

567
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:33.539
Yeah, yeah.

568
00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:36.960
That's the thing this show's doing really well by season five. you

569
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:40.319
know like each week has a different tone and each week is really

570
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:41.700
properly solid, I think.

571
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:44.039
Remember I told you that Nurse Okawa has a sequence where she

572
00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:45.960
looks like she's having an orgasm and a turbo lift.

573
00:26:46.019 --> 00:26:47.579
I thought maybe I was exaggerating that.

574
00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:48.539
I was not.

575
00:26:48.779 --> 00:26:51.119
No, she's got the glow.

576
00:26:51.180 --> 00:26:51.900
I remember it.

577
00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:54.960
She sort of breathing heavily and talking to the kids.

578
00:26:57.539 --> 00:27:01.140
Sorry, I shouldn't be talking about orgasms during darm ox, should

579
00:27:01.140 --> 00:27:01.380
I?

580
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:05.579
So that's the other thing too, which I think is just magnificently

581
00:27:05.579 --> 00:27:09.660
good, is that you've got this big incomprehensible spaceship.

582
00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:13.500
Like he says good shooting to this image of the spaceship.

583
00:27:13.559 --> 00:27:14.759
He can't communicate with it.

584
00:27:14.819 --> 00:27:15.960
It's there.

585
00:27:16.019 --> 00:27:17.640
It's completely incomprehensible.

586
00:27:17.700 --> 00:27:18.960
We don't know what it's doing here.

587
00:27:19.019 --> 00:27:20.220
Jimmy Troy then.

588
00:27:20.220 --> 00:27:21.720
She's going, she said it's wrong.

589
00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:24.839
You're assuming that this is some kind of conflict. wrong.

590
00:27:24.900 --> 00:27:27.779
Man, the women are written brilliantly in this.

591
00:27:27.900 --> 00:27:30.960
I think Deanna's actually really excellent.

592
00:27:31.019 --> 00:27:33.059
And she's the one who works it out.

593
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:34.980
Dr Beverly has her moments as well.

594
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:38.700
Yeah, and it's the men look that are being aggressive.

595
00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:39.839
Can't get it working.

596
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:48.299
But it rather does point out that it's a shame that they aren't

597
00:27:48.299 --> 00:27:51.779
written this well, like throughout the run.

598
00:27:52.140 --> 00:27:58.319
No, and this one is unusual in that there's nothing that's purely

599
00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:02.460
character driven, that this is as procedural as Star Trek gets.

600
00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:04.079
And that's something that I miss.

601
00:28:04.140 --> 00:28:08.940
I think that the others have such heavy premises and are in a

602
00:28:08.940 --> 00:28:12.779
sense not just about a spaceship boldly going where no one has

603
00:28:12.779 --> 00:28:13.500
gone before.

604
00:28:13.559 --> 00:28:14.940
They're about something else.

605
00:28:15.299 --> 00:28:19.079
And here you just have the people doing their jobs well.

606
00:28:19.079 --> 00:28:20.940
And I think there's a real pleasure in that.

607
00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:21.900
I think I've said that before.

608
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:26.519
I would like to sharply controls this to a night in Stick Bay that

609
00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:27.660
we just watched last week.

610
00:28:27.660 --> 00:28:31.799
Where I asked you the question, you know, did Archer go to

611
00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:36.359
diplomatic school at Starfleet Academy or whatever it's called?

612
00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:37.259
No, it's not Starfleet.

613
00:28:37.319 --> 00:28:38.339
Yeah, you'd make that point though.

614
00:28:38.460 --> 00:28:39.720
There is only one ship in that show.

615
00:28:39.779 --> 00:28:46.559
Well, the diplomacy that Picard expresses in Dalmark is leagues

616
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:49.680
ahead of, you know, Archer took his dog down to piss on the lawn

617
00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:51.359
for God's sake, and then blame them for it.

618
00:28:52.019 --> 00:28:57.900
Well, I think that that is also, you know, I think Roddenbury

619
00:28:57.900 --> 00:29:03.420
chooses a brash young man in Kirk in the 60s, and then when he's a

620
00:29:03.420 --> 00:29:08.819
bit older, he chooses an older, more thoughtful person and lets

621
00:29:08.819 --> 00:29:11.640
Riker do all of the sort of brash young man things, even though

622
00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:15.960
he's sort of... could be tempestuous and he could be aggressive

623
00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:18.000
but he was a diplomat.

624
00:29:18.059 --> 00:29:20.220
Yeah, yeah. and he wasn't dumb.

625
00:29:20.279 --> 00:29:23.940
He wasn't dumb, but you know, like Picard's main thing is how

626
00:29:23.940 --> 00:29:25.319
thoughtful he is, I think.

627
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:28.440
Whereas Archer, sorry.

628
00:29:28.500 --> 00:29:30.960
I'm not going to go on, bang on about it too much.

629
00:29:31.140 --> 00:29:37.019
But like the patience that Picard shows in this episode, you know

630
00:29:37.019 --> 00:29:38.579
just in trying to understand him.

631
00:29:39.420 --> 00:29:42.119
So I like this scene.

632
00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:48.180
So this scene is just them working out what the recording means.

633
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:53.519
So there's a conversation between Dathon and his 1st officer and

634
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:56.819
you know, they they rightly work out that, you know, something is

635
00:29:56.819 --> 00:30:01.859
being suggested and then rejected and, you know, the River Tamar

636
00:30:01.859 --> 00:30:05.579
in winter comes to mean, be quiet, be still.

637
00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:08.940
The river freezes in winter, presumably and doesn't move anymore.

638
00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:11.940
And so we use that to mean silence or stillness.

639
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:14.099
And so, you know, he's shut up.

640
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:17.099
He offers a suggestion and Dathon rejects it.

641
00:30:17.160 --> 00:30:21.359
So they kind of know what's happening pragmatically in this

642
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:23.519
conversation, but they just don't know what the conversation's

643
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:24.059
about.

644
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:27.000
And then we get this cross-referencing the database.

645
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:30.420
And here's a Darmok is a frozen dessert on the test.

646
00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:33.599
That is very funny.

647
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:36.599
He's not being played for laughs, like no one reacts to it.

648
00:30:36.660 --> 00:30:38.700
It's adorable.

649
00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:41.700
I do love how they sort of walk away from the language because

650
00:30:41.700 --> 00:30:44.039
they're never going to understand the, because they don't

651
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:45.059
understand the concept.

652
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:48.119
So they're talking about the emotional beats between them.

653
00:30:48.180 --> 00:30:52.140
They're picking apart the exchange with what they can recognise

654
00:30:52.140 --> 00:30:56.819
the body language, the emotions, you know, the familiarity.

655
00:30:56.880 --> 00:30:58.019
It, isn't it?

656
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:03.900
Well, Ada says that he's met 1754 different alien races since

657
00:31:03.900 --> 00:31:07.859
joining Starfleet or none of them mentioned the word Dharmok.

658
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:09.660
None of them said Dharmok.

659
00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:14.160
Trust Troy to be the one to, you know, get excited about dessert.

660
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:17.579
She's like, I'm going to try one of those.

661
00:31:19.380 --> 00:31:21.240
No, it is good.

662
00:31:21.299 --> 00:31:22.079
It is great.

663
00:31:22.140 --> 00:31:22.500
It is great.

664
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:23.579
And you're right. you know what?

665
00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:27.359
It would be all the worse if they if you threw in the 90s trek

666
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:28.380
banter.

667
00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:29.759
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

668
00:31:29.819 --> 00:31:31.259
No, they're just getting on with their work.

669
00:31:31.319 --> 00:31:33.779
There's nothing about this that's just purely about the

670
00:31:33.779 --> 00:31:34.319
characters.

671
00:31:34.380 --> 00:31:35.220
They're just doing their job.

672
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:36.900
It seems really smart.

673
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:38.279
Yes.

674
00:31:38.339 --> 00:31:42.839
Well, like, and so, and I like how Deanna is the one that notices

675
00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:47.039
the, is it, uh, Chantil 3, Shakti 3?

676
00:31:47.099 --> 00:31:47.759
didn't quite see it.

677
00:31:47.819 --> 00:31:48.299
Chantel.

678
00:31:48.299 --> 00:31:50.279
Chantel 3.

679
00:31:50.519 --> 00:31:51.359
Yeah.

680
00:31:51.420 --> 00:31:56.220
And and so Darmok and Tanagra are both in the same story.

681
00:31:56.279 --> 00:32:02.400
And so now they're working out what's going on, just as Picard is

682
00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:05.099
doing it downstairs, which is how these things always work, I

683
00:32:05.099 --> 00:32:05.279
think.

684
00:32:05.339 --> 00:32:09.720
Okay, so this is where we're nearly at the point where the monster

685
00:32:09.720 --> 00:32:11.099
comes in, right?

686
00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:14.460
And you and I have had a few things to say about the design.

687
00:32:14.460 --> 00:32:16.980
So what they've decided to do on this, they go full on predator

688
00:32:16.980 --> 00:32:17.460
don't they?

689
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:19.980
You've got the outline of the monster.

690
00:32:20.940 --> 00:32:23.579
It's a bit unknowable, isn't it?

691
00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:24.180
I quite like that.

692
00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:26.039
I do too.

693
00:32:26.099 --> 00:32:29.220
I mean, think about the Dauphin in series two.

694
00:32:29.339 --> 00:32:32.880
Do you remember that where it was like woman who turned?

695
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:37.440
Like the various...

696
00:32:37.500 --> 00:32:40.500
Yeah, and she turns into this enormous thing with red eyes and

697
00:32:40.500 --> 00:32:41.640
fangs. really funny.

698
00:32:41.700 --> 00:32:43.740
They look so shit.

699
00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:47.339
Like they look, they would be embarrassing, you know, at a theme

700
00:32:47.339 --> 00:32:47.880
park.

701
00:32:47.940 --> 00:32:49.140
They're really, really bad.

702
00:32:49.259 --> 00:32:52.259
When Fleetwood Mac turned up as a giant fish.

703
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:52.740
Yes.

704
00:32:52.740 --> 00:32:53.940
The giant fish?

705
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:54.299
Exactly.

706
00:32:55.259 --> 00:32:59.940
And so and so what they wisely do is they have a monster and the

707
00:32:59.940 --> 00:33:02.519
monster kind of has horned head and stuff like that.

708
00:33:02.579 --> 00:33:05.880
It looks like a mythological monster, like a monster from Earth's

709
00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:07.140
mythology, which is fair enough.

710
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:09.420
But it's all in like this special effects silhouette.

711
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:09.779
Yes.

712
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:12.000
Yeah, she's really never seen that much of it.

713
00:33:12.059 --> 00:33:15.660
There's, I think there's one shot that looks really ridiculously

714
00:33:15.660 --> 00:33:16.019
funny.

715
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:18.539
Well, it's still 90s track, right?

716
00:33:18.599 --> 00:33:19.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

717
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:21.720
But on the whole, I think it looks magnificent.

718
00:33:21.779 --> 00:33:22.740
I think it's a really good shot.

719
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:23.640
But maybe they knew.

720
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:25.799
Maybe they thought, okay, this is a good episode, right?

721
00:33:25.859 --> 00:33:28.740
Let's not just throw in some shitty...

722
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:30.180
You know, that's right.

723
00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:31.980
Let's do something a bit different.

724
00:33:32.099 --> 00:33:34.619
She's so cute that Robin Lefler, isn't she?

725
00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:36.660
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

726
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:38.339
Yeah.

727
00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:44.460
And so, so, again, the techno babble here, I think the idea is

728
00:33:44.460 --> 00:33:48.900
that you've got to credibly give the impression that these people

729
00:33:48.900 --> 00:33:50.039
know what they're doing.

730
00:33:50.099 --> 00:33:53.640
And when they're doing something technical, so they just have to

731
00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:58.380
sound super confident, we know the situation that he's going to do

732
00:33:58.380 --> 00:34:03.539
some magic tech thing to try and get through the transporter

733
00:34:03.539 --> 00:34:04.500
scattering field.

734
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:07.079
And so it doesn't matter what he says.

735
00:34:07.140 --> 00:34:12.840
All that matters is that it sounds like technical terminology that

736
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:16.380
we can't understand because we're from the 20th century or the

737
00:34:16.380 --> 00:34:17.280
21st century.

738
00:34:17.340 --> 00:34:19.079
And I think it's good.

739
00:34:19.139 --> 00:34:20.639
It's not solving the problem.

740
00:34:20.699 --> 00:34:23.940
It's not like saying, you know, the biobed and the chronoson

741
00:34:23.940 --> 00:34:26.219
fields and stuff, it's not solving or creating the problem.

742
00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:29.280
It's just saying, we're doing this thing and you know what it is

743
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:31.440
but this is how we talk about it and that's fine.

744
00:34:31.500 --> 00:34:35.880
I don't know, like, an episode which is about, you know, cultural

745
00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:36.539
language.

746
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:38.639
Or in an episode of Star Trek.

747
00:34:38.699 --> 00:34:40.860
If you didn't have a bunch of techno babbling in it, I be like

748
00:34:40.860 --> 00:34:41.880
well, there's some things I'm missing.

749
00:34:41.940 --> 00:34:42.179
Yeah.

750
00:34:42.179 --> 00:34:47.820
There's that wonderful moment where the Tamarians are speaking all

751
00:34:47.820 --> 00:34:53.159
in very concrete terms about rivers and hills and arms and, you

752
00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:55.199
know, like all of that sort of thing, just speaking really

753
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:56.880
concretely about things.

754
00:34:56.940 --> 00:35:01.019
And Picard is up on the ship's bridge going, you know, do you

755
00:35:01.019 --> 00:35:03.360
think that this would be an agreeable arrangement and stuff?

756
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:06.719
Like he gives his big speech with all of these abstract nouns in

757
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.480
it and it just shows how completely different they are.

758
00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:14.340
There's a real concreteness and a real poetry to the Tamarian

759
00:35:14.340 --> 00:35:18.599
language and there's just this sort of bizarre, you know, lead

760
00:35:18.599 --> 00:35:22.019
and...

761
00:35:22.139 --> 00:35:25.679
I'm sorry, you just, we just missed the moment there where Picard

762
00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:30.179
finally starts talking in the Tamarian language for a 2nd and um

763
00:35:30.179 --> 00:35:33.539
the Tamarian captain just goes, oh, yes, yeah.

764
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:35.579
It's such a great moment.

765
00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:37.800
He must be thinking about that boy.

766
00:35:37.860 --> 00:35:39.480
Oh, it's stupid fucking idiot.

767
00:35:39.539 --> 00:35:40.260
For God's sake.

768
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:44.280
He's thinking, he can be taught, you know.

769
00:35:44.340 --> 00:35:46.139
Yeah, there's a chance here.

770
00:35:47.579 --> 00:35:49.199
Ah, yes.

771
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:55.500
So Uzami, Uzani, his army at Lashmir. which sounds like a town in

772
00:35:55.500 --> 00:35:56.400
India, doesn't it?

773
00:35:56.460 --> 00:35:59.820
But so maybe we, it's like the Mahabarata, which is another great

774
00:35:59.820 --> 00:36:03.900
epic, like this massive epic, which has battles and things in it

775
00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:04.199
as well.

776
00:36:04.260 --> 00:36:07.800
I think Manosky's got a thing about language, you know, because

777
00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:12.840
obviously he wrote masks, which is another episode which does lean

778
00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:17.820
into sort of an unknowable culture that they're trying to unpick.

779
00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:23.280
But he also wrote Nemesis for series 4 of Voyager, where

780
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:26.820
Chakotay's on a planet with his army, and they all talk in this

781
00:36:26.820 --> 00:36:29.460
sort of form of metaphor or simile.

782
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:33.480
Um, and Chakotah's trying to figure out who they're fighting and

783
00:36:33.480 --> 00:36:36.239
what the situation is just through, you know, the way that they're

784
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:37.019
expressing themselves.

785
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:40.679
I think it's it is something he's really interested in.

786
00:36:40.739 --> 00:36:43.380
This is his best stabbing.

787
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:45.719
Ah, so Kath, his eyes uncovered.

788
00:36:45.780 --> 00:36:47.880
He's so excited.

789
00:36:47.940 --> 00:36:50.519
At this point. we've sort of figured out.

790
00:36:50.579 --> 00:36:52.860
You know, what are you saying each time?

791
00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:56.460
So we're going, okay, you're saying, finally, he fucking realised

792
00:36:56.460 --> 00:36:57.780
this, finally. what that means.

793
00:36:57.840 --> 00:36:58.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

794
00:36:58.860 --> 00:37:00.239
That was a great shot there.

795
00:37:00.420 --> 00:37:02.820
Yeah, yeah, I think it looks really good.

796
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:06.539
We can't be beamed away No, it's just beating the shit out of

797
00:37:06.539 --> 00:37:06.780
you.

798
00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:08.340
I was screaming at my TV.

799
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:09.480
No, shouldn't have back.

800
00:37:09.539 --> 00:37:10.139
Send him back.

801
00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:12.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

802
00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:16.500
And this is all fear in, you know, like we can't trust the

803
00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:18.900
Tamarians because we can't understand them.

804
00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:22.019
And so we can't just let them do whatever they like to the

805
00:37:22.019 --> 00:37:22.380
captain.

806
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:24.119
We really have to do something to rescue.

807
00:37:24.179 --> 00:37:26.460
I think this is beautifully directed by the way.

808
00:37:26.519 --> 00:37:29.460
There's stuff happening in the foreground while Picard is

809
00:37:29.460 --> 00:37:30.780
disappearing in the background.

810
00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:36.840
Like this where Dathon falls to the ground in front of Picard as

811
00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:38.639
he's being transported up.

812
00:37:38.699 --> 00:37:40.920
Like Dathon falls into shot.

813
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:43.079
And I think there's some, I don't know who does this.

814
00:37:43.139 --> 00:37:44.099
Is it Rick Colby?

815
00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:44.760
I can't remember.

816
00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:47.519
I think it's solidly done.

817
00:37:47.579 --> 00:37:49.139
I can't remember now.

818
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:50.340
It is great.

819
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:51.000
And you know what?

820
00:37:51.059 --> 00:37:53.880
The shot there is Riker from Below with Wharf behind him.

821
00:37:53.940 --> 00:37:56.699
These 2 idiotic men, but are getting everything wrong.

822
00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:01.260
But I, like, I actually think that they're, like, we never blame

823
00:38:01.260 --> 00:38:04.380
them and the point is never made to write.

824
00:38:04.500 --> 00:38:06.659
You know, that's right.

825
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:12.300
But I think they do represent, you know, another human impulse, but

826
00:38:12.300 --> 00:38:13.619
we don't, you know.

827
00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:16.619
Yeah, that, you know, where the where the monster rises up into

828
00:38:16.619 --> 00:38:18.659
shot in front of Picard.

829
00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:23.340
I think all of that on location stuff is really good, and I think

830
00:38:23.340 --> 00:38:27.300
the monster benefits, because it is a bit stupid from being just

831
00:38:27.300 --> 00:38:28.559
very well directed.

832
00:38:28.619 --> 00:38:32.039
Poor, poor, poor days on.

833
00:38:32.099 --> 00:38:33.900
When the monster was attacking him.

834
00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:35.280
It was just going and going.

835
00:38:35.340 --> 00:38:36.599
It just kept hearing them.

836
00:38:36.659 --> 00:38:40.079
So for once, I actually believe someone's in a bit of trouble, you

837
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:42.300
know, in these action sequences in 90s trek.

838
00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:46.500
Oh, you know, it's usually Ned Quint falling down some stairs with

839
00:38:46.500 --> 00:38:48.659
some electricity going around it or something like that, you

840
00:38:48.659 --> 00:38:48.780
know.

841
00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:53.639
Oh, this is the scene where they talk about Romeo and Juliet and

842
00:38:53.639 --> 00:38:55.860
the context of the language.

843
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:58.980
I just thought this was terrific dialogue.

844
00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:02.820
Because initially I was like, why is Dr. Bevan here?

845
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:05.460
Obviously, she's a bit she's a bit of a romantic, isn't she?

846
00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:09.480
So she's going to bring in her Shakespearean illusions.

847
00:39:09.659 --> 00:39:11.159
Yeah.

848
00:39:11.219 --> 00:39:14.159
So I think she's there for contractual reasons.

849
00:39:14.219 --> 00:39:17.699
Isn't she like basically everyone has to be in every episode and

850
00:39:17.699 --> 00:39:18.780
so she has to appear.

851
00:39:18.900 --> 00:39:21.360
But she could have just turned up and said, oh, I'm getting

852
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:26.159
readings that Captain Picard is, you know, in danger and needs

853
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:27.539
medical attention or something.

854
00:39:27.659 --> 00:39:29.820
Instead, they actually make a part of the discussion.

855
00:39:30.179 --> 00:39:31.559
Yeah.

856
00:39:31.619 --> 00:39:32.400
Yeah.

857
00:39:34.139 --> 00:39:39.300
And I think we forget how superb Lavar is as well.

858
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:44.699
The way that he delivers that technobabble, like it just never

859
00:39:44.699 --> 00:39:46.739
seems crappy.

860
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:48.300
Like he, he means it.

861
00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:49.320
He understands it.

862
00:39:49.380 --> 00:39:52.500
There's, he really sells it properly.

863
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:54.900
I don't think they ever get the chief engineer wrong, you know.

864
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:58.860
Scotty, Geordie, O'Brien, Torres.

865
00:39:58.980 --> 00:40:03.179
And it's got to be someone that can deliver that fucking Jet

866
00:40:03.179 --> 00:40:03.599
Reno.

867
00:40:03.719 --> 00:40:05.159
Trino trip.

868
00:40:05.219 --> 00:40:07.380
Yeah, it's got to be someone who can deliver that dreadful

869
00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:11.099
Technobabble exposition. but convincingly.

870
00:40:11.159 --> 00:40:12.179
Like it means something.

871
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:15.900
You know, they're the ones that get all of the insert technobabble

872
00:40:15.900 --> 00:40:16.380
here lines.

873
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:17.880
Yeah, yeah.

874
00:40:17.940 --> 00:40:21.780
But I think that I think LeVar is a really, really, like he's just

875
00:40:21.780 --> 00:40:23.219
terribly good at it.

876
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:27.059
He just seems, it was it was ridiculous not having a chief

877
00:40:27.059 --> 00:40:27.960
engineer in series one.

878
00:40:28.019 --> 00:40:29.699
It's beautiful.

879
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:32.639
Like he's a beautiful man, but I also think he's extraordinarily

880
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:34.920
good at what he does on this show.

881
00:40:34.980 --> 00:40:37.860
He's good until they give him a romance, and they make that

882
00:40:37.860 --> 00:40:40.559
suggestion that LeVar Burton couldn't pull a chick.

883
00:40:40.619 --> 00:40:41.280
I mean, come on.

884
00:40:41.340 --> 00:40:42.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

885
00:40:42.599 --> 00:40:43.860
Oh, they take away his eyes.

886
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:46.320
I still can't believe they took away his, he has got the most

887
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:48.239
beautiful eyes in television.

888
00:40:48.300 --> 00:40:49.500
Yeah.

889
00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:50.219
Yeah.

890
00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:51.239
It's a crime.

891
00:40:51.300 --> 00:40:51.840
You know.

892
00:40:51.900 --> 00:40:53.280
Yeah.

893
00:40:53.340 --> 00:40:57.420
But he still manages to act without being able to use them.

894
00:40:57.539 --> 00:41:00.059
She said Julia up on the balcony without any context.

895
00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:01.739
The image has no meaning.

896
00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:03.119
Yeah.

897
00:41:03.179 --> 00:41:03.659
Yeah.

898
00:41:05.460 --> 00:41:06.960
Gosh.

899
00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:09.000
You know what, right?

900
00:41:09.059 --> 00:41:10.739
when we were watching PowerPlay and things like this.

901
00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:12.539
I mean, there was just none of this in that, was there?

902
00:41:12.599 --> 00:41:13.559
It was just people...

903
00:41:13.619 --> 00:41:14.579
No.

904
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:17.880
There was a lot of tech about more in that, but there wasn't there

905
00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:18.780
wasn't any smiles.

906
00:41:19.500 --> 00:41:22.860
So we're at an ampas here, aren't we?

907
00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:29.400
Like we can't understand the Tamarians because we don't know their

908
00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:30.300
mythology.

909
00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:33.840
And so we have a universal translator that translates their

910
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:37.380
language, but we can't translate their thought because their

911
00:41:37.380 --> 00:41:39.960
language is just full of these literary references.

912
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:43.500
Would we understand their mythology?

913
00:41:43.739 --> 00:41:46.019
Probably not, no.

914
00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:51.599
Well, but it does seem to be hunters and islands and beasts. broad

915
00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:52.739
strokes that we understand, yes.

916
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:53.280
Yeah.

917
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:53.820
Yeah.

918
00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:57.480
I want to ask you about the design of the Tamarians.

919
00:41:57.539 --> 00:41:59.219
Okay, sorry to bring it down to this level.

920
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:03.239
But I really feel like we're giving these bizarre pufferfish

921
00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:08.400
aliens with blowholes a pass because they're in an episode that's

922
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:09.059
incredibly written.

923
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:09.840
It's really good.

924
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:11.460
Well, they do live fucking stupid.

925
00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:12.420
I'm sorry.

926
00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:15.840
Well, they've got big giant nostrils. quite know what's going on

927
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:16.019
there.

928
00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:18.119
They've got blow holes in the side of the raids.

929
00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:22.320
But enough of their face is, like, they don't have lots of

930
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:25.019
nostrils, you know, like we've certainly seen considerably worse

931
00:42:25.019 --> 00:42:25.679
than that.

932
00:42:25.739 --> 00:42:28.800
And, you know, these aren't much worse than the Klingons.

933
00:42:28.860 --> 00:42:30.539
They look a bit like the Mocklin, actually.

934
00:42:30.539 --> 00:42:31.980
They do.

935
00:42:33.059 --> 00:42:35.159
Yeah, so it's not that terrible, I think.

936
00:42:35.219 --> 00:42:36.840
I'll just say something though, right?

937
00:42:36.900 --> 00:42:38.820
I was so bewitched by the performers.

938
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:41.519
That's the 1st time I've noticed how massive the nostrils are.

939
00:42:41.579 --> 00:42:43.139
Yeah, yeah.

940
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:49.260
But this, I think, is absolutely the central scene, isn't this the

941
00:42:49.260 --> 00:42:50.639
most important scene of the episode?

942
00:42:50.699 --> 00:42:55.619
So this is the one where Picard sits down.

943
00:42:55.739 --> 00:43:00.599
No, no, but even before that, with his patience and his

944
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:04.920
imagination, he's sitting down and trying to learn what the story

945
00:43:04.920 --> 00:43:05.460
is.

946
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:08.099
And he does learn it, doesn't he?

947
00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:13.500
Like he learns that the 2 men, Darmok and Gelard, you know, come

948
00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:14.760
to the island separately.

949
00:43:14.820 --> 00:43:19.619
They encounter the beast at Tanagra, and then they leave together

950
00:43:19.619 --> 00:43:23.760
and so he's able to understand the outlines of the story.

951
00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:26.400
It's so wonderful.

952
00:43:26.460 --> 00:43:27.599
That line.

953
00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:31.559
Paul, who is, yeah, the character is injured at this point.

954
00:43:31.619 --> 00:43:34.800
And he's still full of good humour, you know?

955
00:43:34.860 --> 00:43:36.360
He's wonderful.

956
00:43:36.420 --> 00:43:41.760
He really sells it and he is doing bullshit alien language, but he

957
00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:42.780
knows what it means.

958
00:43:42.840 --> 00:43:46.380
He's clearly delivering it in a way that indicates the actor knows

959
00:43:46.380 --> 00:43:46.739
it.

960
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:50.340
Again, because I have driven this point home in the past. you know

961
00:43:50.340 --> 00:43:52.739
and you've said Star Trek should be all about spectacle and all

962
00:43:52.739 --> 00:43:53.760
that. and I do get that.

963
00:43:53.820 --> 00:43:54.599
I get there.

964
00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:57.539
This has boiled down to 2 people around a campfire.

965
00:43:57.599 --> 00:44:00.059
It's an extraordinary scene.

966
00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:03.900
You could throw beautiful imagery at this and a 1000000 starships

967
00:44:03.900 --> 00:44:06.659
and all that, and it wouldn't be as good as it is here, you know?

968
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:12.179
But I think that also what Star Trek does is this, and this is

969
00:44:12.179 --> 00:44:15.659
central to Star Trek is exploring right here.

970
00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:16.559
That's exactly it.

971
00:44:16.619 --> 00:44:20.699
Yeah. exploring the galaxy and meeting new people and learning

972
00:44:20.699 --> 00:44:22.380
from them and finding out about them.

973
00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:25.440
And one of the things that I love about this too, is that they

974
00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:27.119
don't know how it turned out at the end.

975
00:44:27.179 --> 00:44:31.500
And so they kind of go, they're not new enemies, but we don't

976
00:44:31.500 --> 00:44:31.739
know.

977
00:44:31.800 --> 00:44:34.619
And it does look like they have the potential to be our friends.

978
00:44:34.679 --> 00:44:37.679
Sure, it is. up in Kersman track at some point, the Tamarias.

979
00:44:37.739 --> 00:44:40.980
Yeah, there's a Tamarian security officer on board the side.

980
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:41.340
There we go.

981
00:44:41.340 --> 00:44:42.840
Now we know it works out then, don't we?

982
00:44:42.900 --> 00:44:48.059
There's an episode, he's called Kashon. and it's Kayshon, his eyes

983
00:44:48.059 --> 00:44:49.679
open, I think, is the name of the episode.

984
00:44:49.980 --> 00:44:52.679
Does he talk like this all the way through?

985
00:44:52.739 --> 00:44:56.760
No, because he's been learning how to speak, like a federation

986
00:44:56.760 --> 00:44:58.440
person as well, but he does sometimes.

987
00:44:58.440 --> 00:45:01.920
Imagine they could have like this very tense action sequence and

988
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:04.920
then he will say some bizarre metaphor. what does he mean?

989
00:45:04.980 --> 00:45:06.539
Yeah, yeah.

990
00:45:06.539 --> 00:45:08.880
No, they have occasionally and they've done jokey ones.

991
00:45:08.940 --> 00:45:10.079
There are additional ones too.

992
00:45:10.139 --> 00:45:13.380
And it relies on the fact that we've seen Tarmok and Darmok and we

993
00:45:13.380 --> 00:45:15.000
know what these things mean.

994
00:45:15.059 --> 00:45:18.360
I think if you're a fan of trait, you've seen Dahmok.

995
00:45:18.420 --> 00:45:19.800
Yeah, of course.

996
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:21.239
This is one of the biggies.

997
00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:28.380
But, you know, as well, like we've we've been occasionally um been

998
00:45:28.380 --> 00:45:30.539
critical of Patrick Stewart.

999
00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:32.099
Yeah, yeah.

1000
00:45:32.219 --> 00:45:34.139
But like, but he's brilliant.

1001
00:45:34.199 --> 00:45:35.159
This is his strength here.

1002
00:45:35.219 --> 00:45:36.960
He's a storyteller, isn't he?

1003
00:45:37.019 --> 00:45:40.679
So when he gets to tell the story of Gilgamesh in a minute, he

1004
00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:43.559
just gets into it in such an expressive way.

1005
00:45:43.619 --> 00:45:46.320
I was like, I'm watching an episode of this.

1006
00:45:46.380 --> 00:45:47.400
You know what I mean?

1007
00:45:47.519 --> 00:45:47.820
Yeah.

1008
00:45:47.820 --> 00:45:50.099
Well, this is this is him working it out.

1009
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:54.000
He's actually worked it out, not just how to communicate with him

1010
00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:57.179
but what this strange incomprehensible behaviour has been about.

1011
00:45:57.239 --> 00:45:59.219
You and me here at Eladrell.

1012
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:03.840
But there is a difference between this which is leaning into

1013
00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:06.360
Patrick Stewart's sort of theatrical strengths.

1014
00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:09.659
And there's an episode that starts where they're playing out a

1015
00:46:09.659 --> 00:46:12.239
Shakespearean seeing Data and Picard.

1016
00:46:12.300 --> 00:46:14.880
I think it's Henry the 5th or something like that.

1017
00:46:14.940 --> 00:46:18.960
They, you know, they, they do a whole 10th and it's so, it's so

1018
00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:22.920
indulgent and it really has, yeah, yeah. nothing to do with the

1019
00:46:22.920 --> 00:46:23.579
episode at all.

1020
00:46:23.639 --> 00:46:26.400
No, it does because it's Henry.

1021
00:46:26.460 --> 00:46:31.559
It's Henry, in disguise, speaking to his men who are about to go

1022
00:46:31.559 --> 00:46:32.400
into battle.

1023
00:46:33.059 --> 00:46:37.019
I can't remember, but I do remember Picard quoting from that scene

1024
00:46:37.019 --> 00:46:39.059
again when he's in a similar situation.

1025
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:41.519
Oh, God, it still feels incredibly indulgent.

1026
00:46:41.579 --> 00:46:42.719
I don't think it's all out.

1027
00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:43.500
And it's a bit boring.

1028
00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:44.340
This is brilliant.

1029
00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:48.719
Whereas this is, yeah, this is, this is what he does, isn't it?

1030
00:46:48.780 --> 00:46:51.719
This is what Patrick Stewart does. stands on stage and delivers.

1031
00:46:52.860 --> 00:46:58.679
But the thing is, and the thing that is incredible, and it seems

1032
00:46:58.679 --> 00:47:02.579
if memory alpha is, if memory alpha is to be believed that it's an

1033
00:47:02.579 --> 00:47:06.719
accident, but they tell the story of Gilgamesh and Nkidu.

1034
00:47:06.780 --> 00:47:10.980
And Enkidu dies in the battle with the Bull of Heaven or whatever

1035
00:47:10.980 --> 00:47:11.460
it is.

1036
00:47:11.639 --> 00:47:15.539
And that's when we hear about that.

1037
00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:22.739
And when we hear what Gilgamesh says on Enkidu's death, that's

1038
00:47:22.739 --> 00:47:23.880
when Dathon dies.

1039
00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:27.000
And so Picard is saying that about Dathon.

1040
00:47:27.059 --> 00:47:32.519
And I just found this scene so moving because again, it's about 2

1041
00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:36.599
people who come together, you know, 2 different people who come

1042
00:47:36.599 --> 00:47:37.800
together, they fight.

1043
00:47:37.860 --> 00:47:42.059
They learn to, you know, they end up as brothers and they fight

1044
00:47:42.059 --> 00:47:44.579
this monster together, one of them ties.

1045
00:47:44.699 --> 00:47:49.500
Look at look at Dathon's reaction when he says, Gilgamesh and

1046
00:47:49.500 --> 00:47:54.420
Enkidu at Uruk, and he understands it, and he's smiling like, this

1047
00:47:54.420 --> 00:47:59.820
isn't a bad death for him because he's taught Picard to understand

1048
00:47:59.820 --> 00:48:04.079
the sort of stories that are the basis of his whole way of

1049
00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:04.980
thinking about the world.

1050
00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:09.239
It's I just found this incredibly good.

1051
00:48:09.300 --> 00:48:11.219
Smiling.

1052
00:48:11.219 --> 00:48:12.599
I'm saying, Gilgamesh.

1053
00:48:12.659 --> 00:48:14.760
It's beautiful, isn't it?

1054
00:48:14.820 --> 00:48:18.119
It's so beautiful Yeah.

1055
00:48:18.119 --> 00:48:24.300
This, look. so David's dying and and Picard is talking about

1056
00:48:24.300 --> 00:48:25.860
Ankidu dying as well.

1057
00:48:25.980 --> 00:48:28.320
Wept bitter tears.

1058
00:48:28.380 --> 00:48:29.280
Yeah.

1059
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:35.039
Oh, and he's still, he's still talking, he's still telling him as

1060
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:36.599
he's talking. was my companion.

1061
00:48:36.659 --> 00:48:37.559
Yeah.

1062
00:48:37.619 --> 00:48:43.260
Oh, and and the thing is...

1063
00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:44.639
Yeah, I know.

1064
00:48:44.699 --> 00:48:46.019
I know.

1065
00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:48.420
Because we're the same as them.

1066
00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:50.579
We're the same as the Tamarians, you know.

1067
00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:59.219
And Dathon gives his life for the sake of reaching out to new

1068
00:48:59.219 --> 00:49:05.099
people, for the sake of getting to know, uh, you know, to make

1069
00:49:05.099 --> 00:49:08.519
contact with us because again, that's why they're like us.

1070
00:49:08.579 --> 00:49:13.800
And I just think it's extraordinary that, you know, like I know

1071
00:49:13.800 --> 00:49:17.820
that you're a big fan of the kind of gritty, cynical aspects of

1072
00:49:17.820 --> 00:49:18.659
Star Trek.

1073
00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:21.539
But this is what I want.

1074
00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:23.880
This is the sort of thing that I want.

1075
00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:27.599
There's no reason you can't have both.

1076
00:49:27.659 --> 00:49:29.039
No, that's true.

1077
00:49:29.099 --> 00:49:32.280
But this is this is what I want Star Trek to be.

1078
00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:36.599
And Star Trek is less about this than sometimes we think it is.

1079
00:49:36.719 --> 00:49:40.679
Well, I think Star Trek is more often, you know, like you say, you

1080
00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:42.900
know, risable space problems.

1081
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:45.599
Yeah, yeah, that's fine, you know.

1082
00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:46.440
But you know what?

1083
00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:51.480
Props for them. you know, to give in the audience some credit to

1084
00:49:51.480 --> 00:49:53.039
actually, you know, go through.

1085
00:49:53.099 --> 00:49:56.880
This is quite a slow paced episode and it's quite a smart episode

1086
00:49:56.880 --> 00:49:59.760
and, you know, you do need a bit of patience to watch it.

1087
00:49:59.880 --> 00:50:03.300
And so I give them some credit for putting this out.

1088
00:50:03.300 --> 00:50:06.000
Because this isn't what they normally do, really.

1089
00:50:06.059 --> 00:50:10.800
Well, but no, I mean, Star Trek the Next Generation moves at a

1090
00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:14.400
pretty stately pace by modern television standards.

1091
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:17.579
But we do get a tour where they just have to throw in an action

1092
00:50:17.579 --> 00:50:20.699
sequence just because, you know, it's been too slow for 10

1093
00:50:20.699 --> 00:50:21.000
minutes.

1094
00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:22.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1095
00:50:22.980 --> 00:50:24.480
I don't think that's a bad instinct.

1096
00:50:24.599 --> 00:50:28.800
Well, I think this is using that sort of snail's pace in a smart

1097
00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:29.099
way.

1098
00:50:29.159 --> 00:50:33.960
I mean, we had a fight scene and we, we, having, look, we're

1099
00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:35.099
firing on the Tamarians now.

1100
00:50:35.219 --> 00:50:39.480
You know, Michael Piller says that this episode has everything

1101
00:50:39.539 --> 00:50:43.500
philosophy, dealing with language and what it does for us, great

1102
00:50:43.500 --> 00:50:46.019
acting performances, a monster, and a space.

1103
00:50:46.139 --> 00:50:47.039
Look at these, look at that.

1104
00:50:47.099 --> 00:50:51.300
The monster, which just sort of like lifts its arms up and then

1105
00:50:51.300 --> 00:50:54.659
runs out of shot when Picard disappears and goes to grab him and

1106
00:50:54.659 --> 00:50:58.139
that's the one shot of the monster that I think looks so stupid.

1107
00:50:58.199 --> 00:51:02.219
I just love it so much Curse is spoiled again.

1108
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:03.780
Yes, that's exactly it.

1109
00:51:03.900 --> 00:51:07.800
That's what he's saying in Ellentrell monster language.

1110
00:51:08.219 --> 00:51:10.500
Which I can understand as well.

1111
00:51:10.679 --> 00:51:15.480
I think you do have to be quite a confident show to put out

1112
00:51:15.480 --> 00:51:16.440
something like this as well.

1113
00:51:16.500 --> 00:51:20.820
You know, and I think next year at this point, it is riding high

1114
00:51:20.820 --> 00:51:22.739
and...

1115
00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:23.639
Yeah.

1116
00:51:23.699 --> 00:51:25.079
Well, it just does this very well.

1117
00:51:25.139 --> 00:51:27.119
I mean, I think it strives to do this.

1118
00:51:27.179 --> 00:51:30.360
There's episodes quite early on that are talky or that are

1119
00:51:30.360 --> 00:51:33.300
exploring some philosophical thing.

1120
00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:36.300
You know, think about measure of a man in series 2, which is by no

1121
00:51:36.300 --> 00:51:41.039
means a good season, but has ambitions to say something about the

1122
00:51:41.039 --> 00:51:42.179
human condition or whatever.

1123
00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:45.300
I mean, I think every single episode of the series one is trying.

1124
00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:47.159
It's like...

1125
00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:49.320
This is the aspirations.

1126
00:51:49.380 --> 00:51:52.199
But they've just, they've basically gone to a point where they've

1127
00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:52.920
honed their craft.

1128
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:58.980
Yeah, so we're really cross and then Picard says, shut up.

1129
00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:00.719
And that's the other thing too.

1130
00:52:00.780 --> 00:52:03.659
Like, the River Taymark in winter is be quiet.

1131
00:52:03.719 --> 00:52:09.420
And we can understand this conversation now, can't we?

1132
00:52:09.480 --> 00:52:10.139
Yes, we can.

1133
00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:15.119
We couldn't understand the 1st conversation, but now we can. clever

1134
00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:15.539
isn't it?

1135
00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:17.699
It's good. isn't it?

1136
00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:19.739
So, Kath, his eyes open.

1137
00:52:20.159 --> 00:52:22.500
That's what Dathon said.

1138
00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:26.159
I think we understand every character throughout this, we

1139
00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:27.179
understand the journey.

1140
00:52:27.239 --> 00:52:30.179
And that's why we now understand the language.

1141
00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:31.139
It's so clever.

1142
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:33.480
Yeah, it's good, isn't it?

1143
00:52:33.539 --> 00:52:36.539
And then this this ritual that they perform.

1144
00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:38.880
And it's not the 1st ritual as well because there's ritual

1145
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:39.539
involved here.

1146
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:44.219
So this ritual when they hear about Dathon's death.

1147
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:47.579
And you remember the ritual that Dathon was performing where he

1148
00:52:47.579 --> 00:52:50.639
put those things to his forehead and then put them in a circle

1149
00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:53.039
around his campsite or his bed?

1150
00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:55.920
Carl doesn't at the end, doesn't he?

1151
00:52:55.980 --> 00:52:59.280
Yeah, it's never explained or commented on, but it is another

1152
00:52:59.280 --> 00:53:00.119
thing as well.

1153
00:53:00.179 --> 00:53:02.280
You know, they have myth and ritual.

1154
00:53:02.340 --> 00:53:06.960
And these are very basic things about what it is to be human and

1155
00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:09.179
that's what this episode's investigating.

1156
00:53:09.239 --> 00:53:12.420
And so putting the rituals in there and not commenting on them is

1157
00:53:12.420 --> 00:53:12.719
good.

1158
00:53:12.780 --> 00:53:13.739
And I love this as well.

1159
00:53:13.800 --> 00:53:15.000
You keep it.

1160
00:53:15.300 --> 00:53:18.000
I think I've said this to you before.

1161
00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:19.260
These aliens in Star Trek.

1162
00:53:19.320 --> 00:53:21.780
Some of them seem tailor made for the episode that they're in and

1163
00:53:21.780 --> 00:53:22.980
they don't exist beyond it.

1164
00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:27.840
Others feel as if they have a whole life outside of the episode

1165
00:53:27.840 --> 00:53:28.860
that they're in.

1166
00:53:28.920 --> 00:53:31.860
And like you say, little details like that, the religion, the

1167
00:53:31.860 --> 00:53:34.199
mythology, it all helps.

1168
00:53:34.260 --> 00:53:38.460
It all builds up and I just adore this final shot, Picard at the

1169
00:53:38.460 --> 00:53:38.699
window.

1170
00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:39.900
Yeah.

1171
00:53:39.960 --> 00:53:44.699
Is it is it a thing where because they're incomprehensible to

1172
00:53:44.699 --> 00:53:47.639
everyone else it's super important to them to reach out?

1173
00:53:47.699 --> 00:53:51.900
They go to these lengths because people can't understand them?

1174
00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:56.460
Like, I don't know, just in case somebody else does and there's

1175
00:53:56.460 --> 00:53:56.880
conflict.

1176
00:53:56.940 --> 00:54:01.320
No, no, no, I just mean that because the Tamarians are

1177
00:54:01.320 --> 00:54:05.219
incomprehensible and they're incomprehensible to the sort of

1178
00:54:05.219 --> 00:54:08.880
people that you can just use in it, there's Homeric hymns.

1179
00:54:08.940 --> 00:54:11.400
I wondered why it was the Homeric hymns.

1180
00:54:11.460 --> 00:54:13.559
I think I'm quite a challenge, you know.

1181
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:18.000
He likes, he just likes people to know that he can read classical

1182
00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:20.400
Greek, not classical Greek, ancient Greek.

1183
00:54:20.460 --> 00:54:21.719
You know, it's a flex.

1184
00:54:21.780 --> 00:54:26.940
Well, he'd be like, oh, you're probably one on a classic. hold

1185
00:54:26.940 --> 00:54:28.320
with you that book learning.

1186
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:34.739
Hear some water polo. watch that Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1187
00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:38.460
Yeah, so this, I think this final scene where Picard.

1188
00:54:38.519 --> 00:54:42.119
Where Picard says, they've gone to these incredible lengths.

1189
00:54:42.119 --> 00:54:45.119
The door is open to communicate and connect with us.

1190
00:54:45.179 --> 00:54:49.320
And that's what we do in Starfleet.

1191
00:54:49.380 --> 00:54:53.400
And yes, I just think that takeaway is so good.

1192
00:54:53.519 --> 00:54:55.619
Very different. from series one.

1193
00:54:55.679 --> 00:54:59.519
Series one, it felt very sort of empirical where they were going

1194
00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:03.119
around civilising people and saying, right, we're going to leave

1195
00:55:03.119 --> 00:55:04.500
them now. a bunch of drug dealers.

1196
00:55:04.619 --> 00:55:05.280
Goodbye, you know.

1197
00:55:05.340 --> 00:55:07.380
Now we're reaching out.

1198
00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:08.519
Now we're communicating.

1199
00:55:08.579 --> 00:55:09.719
Now we're trying to understand.

1200
00:55:09.780 --> 00:55:11.760
Oh, that shot of Picard at the window.

1201
00:55:11.820 --> 00:55:13.079
It's great.

1202
00:55:13.139 --> 00:55:16.260
And the music's great here as well. in that sort of Native

1203
00:55:16.260 --> 00:55:18.420
American wind instrument.

1204
00:55:18.480 --> 00:55:21.480
So the music, is it Chataway?

1205
00:55:21.539 --> 00:55:23.159
Shadowway does a lot of that.

1206
00:55:23.219 --> 00:55:28.139
So I think the music, the astonishing musical queue, is the one

1207
00:55:28.139 --> 00:55:32.579
that underlies Picard telling the story of Gilgamesh, and the

1208
00:55:32.579 --> 00:55:34.679
music becomes...

1209
00:55:34.739 --> 00:55:38.340
It's beautiful, but it just sounds ancient.

1210
00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:42.480
Like, it really sells, like, I don't know if it's in one of those

1211
00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:46.199
sort of ancient modes or something, but it really sells that this

1212
00:55:46.199 --> 00:55:50.880
is an ancient story being told from, you know, 1000s of years

1213
00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:51.300
ago.

1214
00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:52.920
It works really well.

1215
00:55:52.980 --> 00:55:55.800
And the music is so rarely interesting.

1216
00:55:55.800 --> 00:56:01.679
I mean, I'm perhaps not as critical of the music of 90s trek as

1217
00:56:01.679 --> 00:56:02.159
you are.

1218
00:56:02.219 --> 00:56:07.860
But if you're never going to find sort of excitement and drama in

1219
00:56:07.860 --> 00:56:10.679
the music, then perhaps where they're trying to do something

1220
00:56:10.679 --> 00:56:14.039
cultural like that in a slower moment, that's going to have more

1221
00:56:14.039 --> 00:56:14.880
of an impact on you.

1222
00:56:14.940 --> 00:56:18.239
Look, I think there are real moments in the music, but generally

1223
00:56:18.239 --> 00:56:21.179
it's not very interesting, but I thought that that music was

1224
00:56:21.179 --> 00:56:21.659
really good.

1225
00:56:21.719 --> 00:56:25.019
And I do remember at the time when Jay Chataway's name started to

1226
00:56:25.019 --> 00:56:29.820
appear in the credits that I knew what sort of music he produced

1227
00:56:29.820 --> 00:56:31.139
and I really liked it.

1228
00:56:31.199 --> 00:56:35.940
And I do have on my shelf here the best of both worlds, CD

1229
00:56:35.940 --> 00:56:37.679
soundtrack by Ron Jones.

1230
00:56:37.739 --> 00:56:43.139
Well, I, um, I said to you, didn't I, that I went and watched

1231
00:56:43.139 --> 00:56:45.360
because this was a classic that lived up to its reputation.

1232
00:56:45.420 --> 00:56:49.199
So I went on then to watch a couple of other classics in inverted

1233
00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:49.619
commas.

1234
00:56:49.679 --> 00:56:53.820
The visitor from DS9 and Layton image, which I think is a classic

1235
00:56:53.820 --> 00:56:57.000
from Voyager, just to see if they lived up to, you know, I thought

1236
00:56:57.000 --> 00:56:59.940
oh, come on, I'm on a roll now after a night and sick play an

1237
00:56:59.940 --> 00:57:00.420
endgame.

1238
00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:02.519
One, they absolutely did.

1239
00:57:02.579 --> 00:57:03.480
They were both excellent.

1240
00:57:03.599 --> 00:57:10.440
The visitor has a J Chataway score and it is. beautiful.

1241
00:57:10.500 --> 00:57:12.300
Like absolutely beautiful.

1242
00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:16.980
So I think perhaps he was a lot better at doing the slower moving

1243
00:57:16.980 --> 00:57:22.079
sort of character episodes than, you know, space battles.

1244
00:57:22.260 --> 00:57:28.619
So for me, I just think this is so essentially Star Trek, it's so

1245
00:57:28.619 --> 00:57:32.039
Star Trek just boiled down to Star Trek.

1246
00:57:32.099 --> 00:57:33.420
There's no character stuff.

1247
00:57:33.480 --> 00:57:38.820
There's no backstory, there's no big intergalactic conflict.

1248
00:57:38.880 --> 00:57:41.760
It is just this very, very small scale.

1249
00:57:41.820 --> 00:57:45.360
And there's a kind of proper philosophical thing.

1250
00:57:45.480 --> 00:57:50.039
It has something worthwhile to say about human beings and it is

1251
00:57:50.039 --> 00:57:53.579
about communication and connection and things.

1252
00:57:53.639 --> 00:57:57.420
And I think that that's what Star Trek's about when it's at its

1253
00:57:57.420 --> 00:58:02.579
best, for this thought, this was maybe the best episode that we've

1254
00:58:02.579 --> 00:58:03.780
actually done so far.

1255
00:58:04.380 --> 00:58:10.800
I probably would rate yesterday's enterprise is better than this.

1256
00:58:10.860 --> 00:58:15.119
But I thought, but I think it's, it's doing a lot more.

1257
00:58:15.179 --> 00:58:17.039
Like there's a there's a lot more happening.

1258
00:58:17.159 --> 00:58:20.340
Uh, sort of yeah, in content.

1259
00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:22.440
But yeah, I think you're right.

1260
00:58:22.500 --> 00:58:27.360
And I often think that Star Trek is at its best when it simplifies

1261
00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:34.199
things and puts 2 people in the room. 2 fucking good actors in a

1262
00:58:34.199 --> 00:58:37.800
room and gives them interesting things to say, which is surprising

1263
00:58:37.800 --> 00:58:39.360
really because of how much I love, you know?

1264
00:58:39.599 --> 00:58:42.059
It's not. in all the space.

1265
00:58:42.119 --> 00:58:44.519
But no, they could do it too with things like duet and walls and

1266
00:58:44.519 --> 00:58:44.880
things like that.

1267
00:58:44.940 --> 00:58:46.260
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1268
00:58:46.380 --> 00:58:46.860
Progress.

1269
00:58:46.980 --> 00:58:48.599
But in terms of the next generation.

1270
00:58:48.659 --> 00:58:52.980
I mean, this is top tier trek. absolutely phenomenal.

1271
00:58:56.460 --> 00:59:00.119
All right, we've reached the end of the episode, so it's time to

1272
00:59:00.119 --> 00:59:04.860
work out what we're doing next, and it's my turn to go to untitled

1273
00:59:04.860 --> 00:59:08.219
Star Trek project.com slash randomiser and press the button.

1274
00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:10.380
So Joe, ask me what we're doing.

1275
00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:12.179
Nathan, what are we doing?

1276
00:59:12.239 --> 00:59:15.059
We are doing Kurtzman track.

1277
00:59:15.179 --> 00:59:16.260
Oh, yeah.

1278
00:59:16.260 --> 00:59:20.579
So, I had a feeling we might be going in this direction. all Yeah

1279
00:59:20.579 --> 00:59:21.239
it's been a while.

1280
00:59:21.300 --> 00:59:22.260
All of it.

1281
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:25.800
We're just going to sit down and watch it from Discovery episode

1282
00:59:25.800 --> 00:59:30.179
one all the way through to the most recent lower decks with peanut

1283
00:59:30.179 --> 00:59:30.960
hamper in it.

1284
00:59:31.260 --> 00:59:32.400
Oh, actually, there might be one hour.

1285
00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:34.860
Oh, I hope we get the one where Lower Decks goes to DS9.

1286
00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:35.639
Off you go.

1287
00:59:36.059 --> 00:59:37.619
All right.

1288
00:59:37.679 --> 00:59:38.219
Yes.

1289
00:59:38.280 --> 00:59:39.719
Okay.

1290
00:59:39.780 --> 00:59:43.380
Now, as usual, we have terrible difficulty working out what an

1291
00:59:43.380 --> 00:59:44.400
episode is from its title.

1292
00:59:44.460 --> 00:59:45.719
Yeah, we may...

1293
00:59:45.719 --> 00:59:49.199
Only that you won't know that. because Nathan's very good at

1294
00:59:49.199 --> 00:59:49.559
editing.

1295
00:59:49.619 --> 00:59:50.099
Yeah.

1296
00:59:50.159 --> 00:59:53.639
Well, because they only have on the screen titles if they're

1297
00:59:53.639 --> 00:59:57.300
prodigy and lower decks, only the animated ones at on-screen

1298
00:59:57.300 --> 00:59:57.659
title.

1299
00:59:57.719 --> 00:59:58.800
So, yeah.

1300
00:59:58.860 --> 01:00:00.840
All right, here goes.

1301
01:00:01.199 --> 01:00:03.239
Oh, this is good.

1302
01:00:04.199 --> 01:00:08.639
This is Star Trek Discovery, season four, episode five.

1303
01:00:08.699 --> 01:00:16.559
It's called the Examples, and it is an absolutely classic Star

1304
01:00:16.559 --> 01:00:18.059
Trek moral dilemma.

1305
01:00:18.119 --> 01:00:19.920
It's like, oh, yes.

1306
01:00:19.980 --> 01:00:24.539
Yeah, it's a really solid. it's virtually a standalone episode.

1307
01:00:24.599 --> 01:00:32.579
And it is, I think Discovery season 4 is its best season, and I've

1308
01:00:32.579 --> 01:00:34.860
already said heaps and heaps of times that I think Discovery

1309
01:00:34.860 --> 01:00:38.579
season 4 ends in a magnificent way, which is partly inspired by

1310
01:00:38.579 --> 01:00:39.659
Darmark, I think.

1311
01:00:39.719 --> 01:00:44.280
But this is, it's absolutely as Star Trek as possible.

1312
01:00:44.340 --> 01:00:50.099
Like it could be an original Star Trek episode, but it's all done

1313
01:00:50.099 --> 01:00:56.039
with, you know, the production sensibilities of Kurtzman. things.

1314
01:00:56.099 --> 01:00:57.840
It's called the examples.

1315
01:00:57.960 --> 01:01:01.800
Okay, is it our moral dilemma of, you know, tubixes?

1316
01:01:01.920 --> 01:01:03.960
No, no.

1317
01:01:04.019 --> 01:01:08.280
So it's a, no, they come across a society that organises itself in

1318
01:01:08.280 --> 01:01:13.019
a particular way that they find problematic and they have to

1319
01:01:13.019 --> 01:01:17.280
rescue people who are under some kind of an environmental threat

1320
01:01:17.280 --> 01:01:21.659
but the people don't want to take certain people with them and

1321
01:01:21.659 --> 01:01:23.400
those people are the examples.

1322
01:01:23.460 --> 01:01:26.039
It's really very Star Treky.

1323
01:01:26.099 --> 01:01:28.380
Oh, this sounds amazingly good.

1324
01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:31.320
This sounds like the sort of episodes where you and me are going

1325
01:01:31.320 --> 01:01:33.420
to have 2 different readings on it and we're going to argue our

1326
01:01:33.420 --> 01:01:34.199
points of view.

1327
01:01:34.260 --> 01:01:36.719
That sounds terrific.

1328
01:01:36.780 --> 01:01:37.619
Yeah, well, you know what?

1329
01:01:37.679 --> 01:01:42.179
I often find the moral dilemma episodes of trek to be the more

1330
01:01:42.179 --> 01:01:43.559
interesting ones, you know.

1331
01:01:43.619 --> 01:01:47.579
Yeah, it's the absolutely classic thing where you set up a society

1332
01:01:47.579 --> 01:01:53.820
to make a point, you know, like critical care or, or my favourite

1333
01:01:53.820 --> 01:02:00.480
one is children of time, where it's like, if we go back, 7000

1334
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:02.219
people will be dead, like, you know.

1335
01:02:02.280 --> 01:02:03.300
Yeah, yeah.

1336
01:02:03.360 --> 01:02:05.880
No, so this isn't putting them in a moral dilemma.

1337
01:02:05.940 --> 01:02:08.219
This is the one where you come across a society that has a

1338
01:02:08.219 --> 01:02:12.539
particular structure and you use that society to comment on our

1339
01:02:12.539 --> 01:02:13.739
morality and stuff like that.

1340
01:02:13.800 --> 01:02:17.579
So, yeah, it's a sort of fairly classic Star Trek thing, I think.

1341
01:02:17.639 --> 01:02:19.019
Well, and you know what?

1342
01:02:19.079 --> 01:02:20.460
We did series 4, didn't we?

1343
01:02:20.519 --> 01:02:23.940
The episode where they were trying to get through to the

1344
01:02:23.940 --> 01:02:24.659
computer.

1345
01:02:24.840 --> 01:02:28.199
It was the mid-season break episode, wasn't it?

1346
01:02:28.260 --> 01:02:29.940
Yeah, that was really good.

1347
01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:31.559
So, yeah, yeah.

1348
01:02:31.619 --> 01:02:32.280
Bring it on.

1349
01:02:32.340 --> 01:02:33.360
Okay, let's do that.

1350
01:02:33.420 --> 01:02:33.780
Awesome.

1351
01:02:41.159 --> 01:02:45.239
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford

1352
01:02:45.239 --> 01:02:48.900
and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project

1353
01:02:48.059 --> 01:02:51.059
com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and

1354
01:02:51.059 --> 01:02:51.719
YouTube channel.

1355
01:02:51.780 --> 01:02:55.260
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was

1356
01:02:55.260 --> 01:02:56.699
composed by Cameron Lamb.

1357
01:02:56.760 --> 01:03:00.780
This episode was recorded on the 14th of October 2022 and released

1358
01:03:00.780 --> 01:03:02.460
on the 21st of October.

1359
01:03:02.519 --> 01:03:06.119
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Discovery, the examples.

1360
01:03:24.360 --> 01:03:27.300
Hey, Joe. Hi.

1361
01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:30.659
I'm gonna do that again, 'cause that was really kind of low key

1362
01:03:30.659 --> 01:03:32.280
and then you came in with, like, a mess.

1363
01:03:32.340 --> 01:03:34.500
You have been low key for a couple of weeks of your age, you

1364
01:03:34.500 --> 01:03:34.679
know?

1365
01:03:34.679 --> 01:03:35.400
I actually noticed that.

1366
01:03:36.300 --> 01:03:38.039
Yeah, yeah, let's let's try it.

1367
01:03:38.159 --> 01:03:39.840
You used to be some zip in there.

1368
01:03:39.960 --> 01:03:44.820
Hey, Joe. I don't think I ever quite reached those levels. but

1369
01:03:44.820 --> 01:03:48.239
somewhere between what I just did and what you did.

1370
01:03:48.300 --> 01:03:51.119
Nobody podcast quite as enthusiastically as me, you know.

1371
01:03:52.679 --> 01:03:54.659
All right, here goes.

1372
01:03:54.719 --> 01:03:57.480
Hey, Joe. Hi.

1373
01:03:57.599 --> 01:04:02.219
So last week, we expressed the fear.

1374
01:04:03.599 --> 01:04:05.039
Yeah.

1375
01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:11.280
So last week we expressed some apprehension about Darmok, insofar

1376
01:04:11.280 --> 01:04:13.380
as we, oh, fucking hell.

1377
01:04:13.440 --> 01:04:14.639
Why am I saying insofar as?

1378
01:04:14.639 --> 01:04:17.639
I don't know, because you're now shaked. because you've watched

1379
01:04:17.639 --> 01:04:18.059
this episode.

1380
01:04:18.119 --> 01:04:19.260
That's right.

1381
01:04:23.400 --> 01:04:27.119
So last week, I expressed some concern.