Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we are doing a monumental episode, I think, this evening, which
is the finale of 7 years of top tier Star Trek from Star Trek
Voyager.
How are you feeling going in?
Don't even start with me, all right?
There should be a monumental episode.
This should be the culmination of 7 years of Star Trek Voyager.
Can I say something just straight from the off, please?
Yeah.
This is not on.
Okay?
This is in no way the finale of a television series.
This is a rehash.
It's not even a rehash of Voyager episodes.
This is a rehash of a ton of next generation episodes, which I
know you're going to say, but I just spent 7 years doing anyway, so
it is fitting.
We've been doing 2 characters meeting since Times Squared in
season 2 of TNG.
What's that one on the 2nd time squared?
All right, 2nd chances. everyone remembers that one or Data met
himself quite a few times.
We've been doing other depictions of the future since future
imperfect in tea.
We've been doing engagements with the Borg since Q-Hoo in series 2
of TNG.
I mean, there's just no part of this that is original exciting
innovative in any way.
I am not pleased.
I was hoping to go back and watch this and see, you know, fabulous
depths, kisses to the past, wonderful things happening.
I know you're kinder about this and me.
But this is not on.
Well, I think I just went in with lower expectations than you and
That's not an argument.
Well, look, I mean, they decided very early on that this was not
going to be a show that was serialised it wasn't going to tell a
continuous story about these people.
It was just going to do Star Trek and solve space problems every
week.
And sometimes they did that very well and sometimes they did it
sort of fairly badly.
So when it comes to sort of culmination of 7 years, how do we do a
finale?
And to be fair, it's the 1st deliberate finale of a Star Trek
series ever because...
Well, so Star Trek, the original series just gets cancelled.
The animated series, I don't think, ends in any sort of very
definite way.
Star Trek.
It's like 6 episodes in series 2 or something and then just
stops.
That's right.
And then Star Trek, the Next Generation, they all turn up at work
the following week and start recording Star Trek generations.
And so it is a summary of, you know, Star Trek.
And it is successful and not successful in all sorts of ways
mostly based upon the kind of nostalgia you feel for the
characters more than anything else.
So this is how do we end this?
And they have to end it coming back to Earth.
And so what do they do?
Well, Deep Space...
You just kept over DS9?
Yeah, because Deep Space 9 is a series set in the Star Trek
universe.
It's not a Star Trek series.
And it decided after a few faltering starts that it was going to
tell a sort of fairly continuous story.
And when it came time for it to wrap up series 7, they just had
more material than they could even conceivably fit in there.
You know, like they have a big 10 episode arc that leads up to a
sort of impressive finale except for what Marco Lemo and Louise
Fletcher. have to do.
But this is the 1st time that we have to end. we have to get back
to earth and what do we do?
And I think that what this chooses to do is more or less the right
thing.
So it hints at their life on earth in the future, but it doesn't
really show us it, but it gives us a possible future, and
basically that's all we're going to get, is possible futures.
We won't actually see their future.
And it gives Janeway a chance to examine the decision that she
made that stranded them in the Delta Quadrant in the 1st place and
get her to play it out again and make the right decision.
And so, you know, like, I don't know.
It's not great, but I don't think it's an atrocity.
Oh, I thought it was very dull, very dull indeed.
We will talk about that.
That hints of a possible future.
That doesn't cut it with me.
I'm sorry, like that isn't what happens.
The people that die in that future do not die at the end of this.
So basically none of that is going to happen.
It's going to be completely different.
We do gesture toward the future with a budding relationship and
with the birth of a baby.
So we know that those characters are going on.
We talk.
Harry talks a little bit about seeing his mother and how much he
wants to do that.
So I think it would have been nice if we'd had more of that sort
of stuff, but they do at least hint towards it.
But the characters are too thin to sustain anything very
interesting.
Exactly.
May I say that both of those things, the budding relationship and
the birth of the baby, are sitcom at their most tedious?
Well, it's because the characters aren't great.
It's because the actors aren't great in those 2 plots as well.
Yeah, Roxanne Dawson and Jerry Ryan are, but the 2 Roberts
unfortunately, are letting them side down a little bit.
Yeah, yeah.
So basically what you're saying is this is the best we could have
hoped for.
Maybe, maybe it is.
I'm dabbing this with...
That's dabbing the series with...
Well, yeah, but I mean, if it just aims to be a sort of diverting
way to spend 45 minutes watching space things every week, you know
mission accomplished.
And we were just lucky that often it strove to be more than that
less often, say, than Deep Space 9 did, and perhaps slightly more
often than Enterprise.
Who knows?
Can I say, though, like, I watched this or at least 2 thirds of
this with my other half, right?
Who's not a Star Trek fan in any way, shape or form, right?
So now I start thinking, well, maybe it's me because he couldn't
see the ending.
And then he went, oh, I really want to see the ending of that
Voyager episode.
I'm like, oh, were you enjoying that?
So maybe maybe this is just working on levels that isn't for me.
Like, I guess in terms of action adventure, it's very pretty.
There's some great effects.
If you're not accustomed to the series or the franchise behind
this, I suppose some of this would be quite exciting and full of
interesting ideas.
But we have been doing this a long time, haven't we?
Time travel, alternative futures, the Borg.
Like the Borg at this point, I think there are some interesting
visuals and I like that the Borg Queen comes along and decides to
flirt with Janeway exactly the same way she flirts with data in
1st contact.
Oh, not sure.
That's fun.
Well, actually, I've got a bit quote about that, you know, because
Alice Creek says, how do I do this?
This is not Brent Spiner, and this is Kate Mulgrew.
And she went, oh, just go for it.
She's a dirty bitch, you know?
The Borg would be with us for 13 years at this and Voyager did a
tremendous job when they 1st introduced them like that, they
really...
Scorpion part one, 2 is really good.
Unity, though, where they 1st came into series 3 is such a really
strong episode as well.
But then they started, they obviously they brought in 7 of 9 and
then they lent into it just a little bit too much.
Then they got a bit desperate and started bringing in the all
kitty winks and things like this.
And then they did Unimatrix 0 where they, you know, said, oh, well
there's this rebellion ball group that are in the hive mine, and
you're like, oh, what is going on now?
bring this to an end, please, you know?
Well, they do the combination.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, but what is what is the climax of this great Borg
storyline?
all blow up.
Yeah.
But, I mean, in a way, it's not really a story about the Borg.
It is a story about the decision that Janeway made to strand
them.
And we've forgotten that.
We've long since forgotten that, but you remember in state of flux
in series one, which is the most recent voyage we watched, it was
controversial.
She's condemned. right.
What's really interesting, they do tend to forget about it.
And then remembering it every now and again.
Do you remember at night at the beginning of series five?
Ah, yeah, yeah.
Where she's in her quarters for the 1st half of the episode in the
dark going, oh, God, I stranded that everyone here.
Like, she hasn't cared about it for years.
All of a sudden, it's really weighing on her mind.
So I do remember it sort of every now and then.
And I mean, that's part of the problem, isn't it?
That's part of the problem, is that it's not really a story. you
know, of a group of desperate people trying to get home.
It's really just a sort of venue for Star Trek episodes to happen
in and that never becomes interesting.
And so when it comes to them returning home.
In a way, it's hard to care.
You know, because it's essentially the same thing as the series
ending and the series was always going to end at this point, you
know.
One of these days, you and I will do a commentary on caretaker and
the potential that was there.
And we've talked about this before, the potential that was there
for this series to be, you know, not Battlestar Galactica gritty
but to tell, you know, a genuinely interesting story about people
stuck out in a region of space cut off from resources, et cetera
et cetera, was there.
Well, this isn't, this isn't the Battlestar Galactica finale, is
it?
No.
No, no.
People hated that, but I thought it was tremendous.
But it was wonderful.
Do you remember the bit where the ship came in and that's when
Rosalind dies.
Sorry, spoiler.
That broke my heart that same.
So good.
So brilliant.
Yeah.
Nathan, before we head into the episode, would you indulge me once
again?
What did people say?
With a few exciting sound bites from the Voyager crew on their own
finale.
Well, as you can imagine, Robert Beltran was not impressed.
The 2nd worst, Robert, what did he have to say?
He says they took it out on us by saying, this show's no good.
Let's get it over with as quickly as possible, so we can fix it
for the next one.
What in 7 years?
Get it over with as quickly as possible.
He says, um, that's what we're going out with and claimed that the
episode make him feel vindicated about his belief that the writers
were idiots, so it was unfortunate that the fans were going to
have to sit through it.
I mean, I think I feel like he was thinking about me there, you
know, he was thinking about me.
I'm honest.
Maybe he's just the 2nd best, Robert.
Let's see what Kate Mulgrew has to say.
I think in the end it was just about as excellent as it could have
been under those extraordinary circumstances.
That's very, very diplomatic.
Okay, Garrett Wang says, I think the 1st hour of the finale was
fantastic, very exciting, well written, good pacing.
Everything was great about the 1st hour, but the 2nd hour, it just
seemed like it tied up all the loose ends very quickly.
So the 2nd half of the finale I was not happy about, and I
especially didn't like the fact that we ended up in the series
Earth's Orbit.
We didn't even step foot on earth.
Yeah.
I think that's a valid criticism.
Garrett Wang.
It would have been very expensive for them to set foot on earth
but for Christ's sake, it's your finale, and that would have been
good.
You know, like the people who say, we should have come home midway
through season 7 and then endured 13 episodes of whatever the
Voyager writers thought they were capable of making happen on
earth after they'd all left the crew.
Like there was never any chance that that would be a going
concern.
So they have to end arriving home.
And I guess having a final shot of a computer generated.
Earth is cheaper than landing them all in San Francisco.
That would have been better though.
It was real, I tell you, it was real.
Good on you, Garrett, you're right.
It's funny you should say that, you know, because Roxanne Dawson
says, my only criticism, if I have one, is that I wish we had
started to deal with the ending a little bit earlier, instead of
just in that last 2 hour episode.
Yeah, or the last 5 minutes of the 2 hours.
I'm starting to feel like the 2 should have been in the royal
room.
Yeah, they might have done a better job on this show.
Okay, well, Picardo says, I really like the finale.
Kate did a superb job talking to herself.
Ha ha.
I thought Kate was absolutely seamless.
Yeah, that's all he really says something, right?
Tim Rush says, I feel it's time to wrap up the show.
He said 7 years of standing at the tactical stroke security
station occasionally saying lines about the shield levels and
that's really all that's been asked of him.
It's a great waste.
And Jerry Ryan says that she found the romance between 7 of 9 and
Chakotay frustrating, saying, I don't think it was a bad idea, just
the way it came out of left field.
I think Robert Beltran and I had a very hard time with that.
Wow.
Boy, did you?
I wasn't sold at all, were you?
Well, I actually thought that it gave Jerry the chance to do some
something different as 7 to do a slightly different performance.
And I found her as charming as hell, that smile, like when she
smiled.
No, no, but I don't care.
I was looking at Jerry.
I didn't even realise that Robert was in the room.
So director Alan Croecca recalls, there was a big push for me to
finish the scenes quickly so they could start tearing down the
set.
Imagine trying to rehearse a scene and miss the sounds of
deconstruction, watching the walls of your home being carried off
stage, as you're still trying to get the actors to say their
lives.
Wow.
So it was literally them out. them in.
That's so bad.
And here's the most condemning.
Are you ready for this?
The most condemning quote comes from Branham Bragger himself, who
has input in this story, I believe.
I don't remember the finale well enough.
I think I have a story credit on it.
So you'd think I would remember it.
I don't think the Borg was super impactful here.
I think 7 of 9 should have bit in the dust.
I think there should have been a real sacrifice for this crew
getting home, a real blood sacrifice.
I think then.
You have a finale.
Yeah.
I mean, there is a blood sacrifice, but it's one that doesn't
actually cost them anything.
And Rick Berman absolutely adored it.
Of course it did a fabulous job.
But then he is going to say that, isn't he?
Should we watch this thing?
I think we probably should.
So I will count us in five, four, three, two, one and we're off.
We...
So fireworks going over San Francisco here.
Yeah, I think that this is an image that they had in mind very
early on, and it is a pretty good image, but I think that there's
a problem.
It actually, there's a problem with it, and I'll get to that
later.
I do think it's great visuals.
I mean, that's just amazing.
Look at it.
I'm not sure that.
I'm not sure if I'll buy the fireworks.
Don't buy the crowd.
Like, I absolutely don't buy the crowd.
They're all just sort of crowded, you know.
And the most exciting thing you could do is have the shuttle going
past behind them, you know, like that's how they're showing the
scope of this thing.
In fact, Brannan Bragger had an idea for an episode earlier in the
show's run that started with this image of Voyager going over and
the whole thing was going to be a massive com and he remembered it
for the finale.
Yeah.
And so this...
Here we have.
Kate Mulgrew in old age makeup.
Yeah.
And so here's the problem with this beginning scene is that
everyone just looks incredibly shit with the possible exception of
Kate Mulgrew, with the exception of Kate Mulgrew, I would say that
yeah.
Yeah.
They don't go too heavy on her makeup, but Jesus Christ, everyone
else looks so stupid.
And so this 1st half of the thing, we are alternating between the
future and the present, like our show person.
The whole 1st act is in the fake future, isn't it?
Yeah, but the alternative future.
Yeah, we start and we go in the alternative future for a long time
and then we just alternate between them and we know that they're
going to meet.
And so the meeting is the cliffhanger to episode one if they're
showing it in syndication.
You know, when we watched all good things.
Yeah, and we were popping into the future in the vineyard with old
Picard.
Was that an alternative future or was that the future that was to
come?
Well, no, that's an alternative future because they even say that
at the end, they even say, not even an original fucking finale
then, is it?
No, well, remember, remember that Deanna has died in that
alternative future and that Riker and Worf no longer talk to one
another and so they determine that they're not going to do that
and having that conversation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They have that conversation and then Deanna comes into the into
the poker table because no one's told her about it.
They've tactfully discussed it behind her back.
And so that's the same thing that's happening there.
You know, 7's dead.
Do you think they've spent more time with Mulgrew's makeup simply
because she's going to be in the bulk of this episode in that
makeup?
Maybe.
And yeah, well, that's right.
She's in episode 2 in the makeup too, but I think they probably
have toned it down a little bit because she's a good actor.
She can act older.
She's older than most of the rest of the cast anyway, probably
slightly.
I don't know, actually.
I'm just saying that, huh?
Can I say one thing that I don't think you're going to like?
And this is, I promise you, this will be the sort of the end of me
truly bitching and I'll try and find nice things to say after
this.
I think Kate Mulgrew struggles in this.
Yeah, I didn't see that because you had told me beforehand and I
did look for it.
Holy crap, like, look at this.
Garrett's makeup and hair are so bad.
That's bad, but it's not as bad as No, because he's younger.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
On Paris, it looks like he's got some terrible disease.
It was mutated in his face.
What's happened to his nose?
Like, they've put all this thing, like his nose has got thinner. as
he's got older?
Is that a thing that happens?
I don't think people's noses get thinner.
What's going on?
No, he's done a bit of cosmetic surgery, that's all.
He wants to look a bit better. trimmer in his old age.
He's such a beautiful young man.
I do like to know what?
I do like Janeway's hair.
Yeah, I do too.
A fabulous sort of coiffure.
Well, that's healthy, are they?
Kate Mulgrew.
She could pull off any look, you know?
No, and I don't think they've gone very heavy on the makeup
either.
So we're hearing about someone's funeral, but whose is a, we don't
know.
I think it's seven, isn't it?
Well, yeah, but we don't know at this point.
Oh, no, she goes to Chakotay is great, so maybe it's Chakotay.
Yeah.
Oh here we go.
This is the doctor and his wife.
And this is, oh my god.
I would say this ageing makeup looked really bad, if I didn't know
what the worst Robert looks like now, because he's, you bitch.
No, he's a very handsome man.
We cannot condemn people for getting old, all right?
No, no, no, no, no, look, I'm older than him.
So, like, isn't it glorious that the doctor's got this hot blonde
on his head?
I know, it's terrific.
And he's decided after 7 years to call himself Joe. Joe, the most
low effort name imaginable is the joke, apparently.
I beg your pardon?
Well, I had a great imagination.
Thank you very much.
So funny.
It's such a great.
That is a funny joke.
That's my favourite joke of the episode.
It's over now and we've still got an hour and 25 minutes to go.
Now, look, it's not so shocking on B'lana, the old age maker
because I'm still seeing her in makeup, are we?
Yeah, but I think it's bad.
Like the lines around her mouth and stuff and not very
convincing.
Okay.
Remember Beverly came across best in the ageing makeup in All Good
Things?
Yeah.
In certain lights.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I guess that's what B'lana's dealing with here.
I kind of like this too.
And this is interesting because we get the baby that's going to be
born in the final, like final minutes of this episode, we get to
see her and she is part of the plan, which I think is pretty
great.
And we knew it was...
Although again, again, I would like to have seen that done a
season earlier and we could deal with some fallout on Voyager and
have some terrible, you know, you've got to chase the diapers
storylines.
Oh, God, no.
Because I just want more soap anomaly and stuff.
I want less procedural and more soap.
Oh, he's Dwight looking really bad in his ageing makeup as well.
And so, you know, I don't remember in TNG.
You know, he did that weird delivery of like, uh, talking a bit, uh
like, where's that company?
That's him being old.
That's old, Barkley.
Okay.
Oh my god, look at that dreadful respect shot of communications
place.
It's really not good, is it?
Just shocking.
When you think of those city scapes they did in Picard, you know.
Yeah, or what, you know, Strange New Worlds looks like.
Can I please want to find my statement about Kate Mulgrew, please?
Because I don't want to, I don't want to attack Mulgar on
necessarily.
I think she is one of the MVPs Voyager.
Properly so.
I think she struggles when she's acting against herself.
And she says that herself is a tough.
That is not a natural thing to do.
And she was having to do take after take off to take.
And I don't think and it happens in deadlock as well when they did
it.
So even that's not original because they had 2 Janeways in
deadlock talking together.
So I think she gives a very nice performance as the old Janeway
and I buy her character.
She's always very good as a regular German.
You bring the 2 together and it's just all a bit static and a bit
wooden and that's what I don't like.
And in the finale I don't want that.
I, this scene is so stupid.
Plus, oh, look, firstly, let's just say, look at these pretty
cadets, they're very pretty.
Did you know that cadet man?
He's part of the Make-A-Wish Foundation, and he won that role on
Voyager at the 24.
Who's asking the question?
Yeah.
He's beautiful.
He had a wish to make, and that was just appear on Star Trek Boy
job.
So here he is in the finale. for him.
That's awesome But this is one of these stupid scenes that only
happens in really crappy television where, you know, like it's a
lecture.
We're here for a university lecture, rather than showing us the
last 2 minutes of the lecture and then going to questions, she
asked her questions 1st because why?
I don't know because we wanted to see Barclay introduce her
because we needed it.
It explained to us what was going on.
And because we can't afford a university lecture hall, it's all
just going to be done in this shitty set, you know, like we need
to be told it's a lecture.
And so it's a lecture that lasts essentially 3 minutes before she
gets called away.
It's so ridiculous.
Can I ask you a question that I think you may have asked me?
Well, so the older Janeway, she wants to head back into the past
to change what's happened to save 7 and Robert Beltran.
Yeah?
Yep.
And those people that have died. since uh, you know, season 7 of
Voyager.
Well, what about all the people that died since series one?
Why didn't she go back to caretaker and change the future?
I did a little bit of research?
Uh, and apparently about 37 people on the crew die during Voyager
7 year run?
And we're told by older Janeway that in the remainder, in the
remaining 14 years or something that it takes them to get home, 22
people die.
So in fact, the death rate goes down dramatically towards the end
of the run.
Why would she choose her toilet?
Because she just faked... 7 of 9 and...
I think it's a problem.
I think it's actually a problem with a script.
And it's because the show doesn't want to do anything too
shocking.
And because the show is wedded to the idea that when Voyager
arrives home, there's a fly through the Golden Gate Bridge and
fireworks and stuff.
And what really needed to be happening was that the ship was just
limping, you know, barely makes at home in one piece and that it's
been a huge disaster.
And but they're too kind of cowardly to do that.
And so what we get instead is Janeway, whose friend is sick, whose
other friend has died, and then another friend has died, and she
goes, that's unacceptable.
I'm going to change the flow of time, rather than saying, I'm a
grown up and life is really difficult sometimes and people die and
get sick and I should just learn to deal with it.
So her whole motivation is stupid, I think.
She's like, do you know what?
We've been back in time quite a few times.
I'll give that a go.
See if I can show you things.
I mean, like that's an option.
You know, that's an option in the Star Trek universe, obviously.
But you also as well, you could just, you could waive all the
problems, all the objections we've just made with a line.
Yeah, she was trying to get back to where Caretaker was.
Oh dear, she made a miscalculation and ended up 7 years in the
future.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
She could have gone back to the beginning and just prevented it
and did what happens here where they get to go home and imagine
that.
And they get to do the thing.
But that was this.
And we went back to Caretaker and they did exactly what they did
in all good things.
They, you know, everyone's hair was wrong, just like it wasn't
that one.
But then that would mean that all of the 7 years of Voyager never
happened, even though we'd watched.
I would like to say that within this entire tedious future that
we're seeing, because there's another really interesting going on
here, if I'm honest, Tim Russ is given a chance to do something a
little bit different from the norm and he's very, very good.
Yeah, he is very good.
And every time they do this, Look at the publicity shot.
Series 4 publicity shot on the, you know, on the side table as in
the hospital as she leaves.
They used to do one every year, you know, to commemorate another
year in the Del Squadron.
No, no, I mean, within the series in the show.
Yeah, yeah.
But every time they allow Tim Ross to do something different, it
does rather point out that he has been standing at that absolutely
way saying, they are firing at us for 7 years, I'll never stop
quoting that line from that convention where he said that.
Was that the one where I was standing behind the console saying
they're firing at us, sir.
He's so good.
I tell you what.
I follow all these people on Twitter, obviously, because of course
they do, and he's wonderful, Tim Ross.
He's a smart man.
Did I ever tell you the story about him and Technobabble?
Can I drop it in now really quickly?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nothing's going on.
So I've got a quote.
There won't be for about half an hour, don't worry.
Where he's going, you know, and it's just so unnatural.
He goes for a scene where you've got a character beat and then a
whole load of technobabble and then a character beat and then a
whole load of technobabble.
He goes, and the flow of the scene, they just don't work and he
said, it's fundamentally a problem with Star Trek in that you are
putting genuine human emotion and fucking wacky nonsensical
science in the same scene and you're being thrown between one and
as an actor, he's like, how do you fucking sell that?
So, I mean, the idea is, let's just say, you do.
Yeah, I mean, the idea is that they're working, you know, so
they're doing some work, and then they stop doing work, and talk
to each other a bit, and then talk about the work for a bit, and
then go on.
And that's the sort of thing that you might do in a procedural
show anyway.
But Star Trek has a particular...
I thought it was so interesting.
The way he's talking about going from the natural to the unnatural
so quickly.
I've never really heard anyone kind of criticise the techno babble
before.
And I was like, well, good for you for saying it, you know, so
we've got another John Billingsley on our hands here.
He was willing to say it how it is.
And it is a particularly 90s Star Trek thing.
It's, there's not, there is technobabble in Kurtzman Trek, but not
in the same way.
And there's hardly enough.
There's 10 about when DS 9, but in the latter years, again, it's
not in the same way.
It's not, you know, they used to literally write, insert
technovabble here in the scripts.
Oh, can we talk about this set, please?
The funeral set.
Ah, again.
It's a soap opera.
You know where you can find trees, Catherine, outside.
Do you know what?
And they look, they put that mournful gray sky behind there
haven't they?
I mean, to be fair, we've come on a bit from, you know, the studio
sties of TNG series one.
We've come on a little bit.
So this is said, I think, in 23, 2404.
So it's set just around about the time, I think, that Picard is
set now.
Yeah.
So the beginning of the 24th century.
I mean, there's no reason why Admiral Janeway can't appear in
Picard.
That makes no reason at all.
Yeah, she appeared in nemesis.
Yep.
Yeah. there you go.
Oh, right, here we go.
So finally, now we're in present day Voyager.
Where are we?
Hang on.
We're in, and this is...
This is the 1st point in the episode where anything is actually
relevant because...
Well, except that we don't know what's happened.
Do you know what I mean?
We know that this isn't the future, like we know, I think, do we
know it?
We know it before the opening credits.
The big surprise is we're watching the show in order to see
Voyager come home to Earth.
The very 1st thing we see, oh, it's arrived on earth.
That was quick.
What's going to happen now?
And then we see that that was 14 years ago or whatever.
Um, 14, 10?
I just say, poor dumb Tom Paris heading off the Sick Bay with our
his pregnant missus.
Oh, please.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm sorry.
I know you love this shit, don't you?
You love this sitcom shit.
No, but this is bad sitcom stuff.
Like, this is tedious sitcom stuff.
That's terrible.
Like, I think sometimes that stuff can be funny.
And I think it is a thing that happens, you know, think about the
giving birth in disaster where Keiko's giving birth.
And that's probably funny.
I'm trying.
Yeah, yeah.
It's absolutely going for laughs and getting them.
And I think that that's a thing that happens here.
I, you know, like...
Do you mean every time someone's going to have a baby?
Star Trek.
We're going to end up in sick.
I mean, it does happen in DS9 as well, with Shakara and O'Brien go
through that door at the same time.
Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
Again, there's a sword of joke, and it is a little bit lame where
you have Tom Paris complaining that he's not getting any sleep
because of these continuing false labours, and the doctor just
looks at him and says, you think you've got a problem now.
You know, like that's sort of cute.
I mean, it's not particularly inventive or clever.
Oh, no, sorry to interrupt you.
I'm so sorry.
But you just said, the new the new chef is thinking of doing warp
cordon blue.
It's so bad.
The dialogue is so bad, but look how charming the 2 of them are.
Like, the 2 of them are actually, like she's smiling.
He's smiling properly.
The 2nd worst Robert is giving it a go.
The few moments where they lean into Jay Wern Shakose.
Do you remember when she goes off the rails in equinox after
ransom?
And Chakotay's genuinely thinking of like staging a coup because
she is so psychotic.
They're a really interesting parent.
I don't know why they ignore them for so much of the rum.
Yeah.
Oh, no, here we go.
I'm sorry, it's going to be me saying, 0 no, here we go for most
of this.
This is introduced like 2 episodes from the end or something.
This is the 1st time we've seen them date.
It is an episode called Human Era.
What happened was 7 of 9 is, I think she's exploring Chakotay on
the holodeck.
And what happens at the end of the episode is it resets.
The doctor says, you can't experience these emotions because of
your quote unquote or something like that.
Some techno babble shit as to why they can't develop these
characters.
And so we think it's dropped.
And then it's just suddenly picked up here again.
It's odd.
Well, I think it's standing in for changing relationships as the
thing ends.
You know, we've, I guess we've seen Tom and B'Elana get close.
Have we seen Calto before?
Oh, we have, haven't we?
Oh, no, Chubo plays this all the time throughout Voyages Rum.
And he's always playing against Harry Kim as well.
Yeah, so this is this is actually this is probably the most
leaning into the path we get in the whole website.
Yeah, yeah.
And this is quite good, actually.
Actually, I don't mind...
Every time I see YouTube, I get a slight itching of the eye.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's awful, that thing, doing that to me. card
series one.
Oh, well.
It is awful.
But every time I see it, I do chuckle.
I'm going to say...
Harry Kim is such a chump, isn't he?
I'm sorry.
This bit in a minute where they give Tom Paris the pip.
Is it in this episode?
No, I don't think he gets appeared.
Because he's already Lieutenant, isn't he?
I watched Unimetrics 0 earlier in the week.
Sorry.
I'm getting confused.
But he never had a promotion, did he?
Nope, no.
Yeah.
So they should have made a point of that.
His mother does when he finally speaks to his mom in series 7.
She goes, Harry, why haven't you had a promotion?
We see that, which I hear is a realistic depiction, you know?
It's it's kind of a shame that that they come home and it's such a
surprise to them.
And I think if we had had time this episode to explore kind of
their feelings about, like do a light Borg thing or whatever, and
explore their feelings about not being together anymore, I think
that would have been interesting and it would have been doable and
we could have still had a Star Trek episode.
Yeah, interesting.
Because the one kind of sentiment they really do here is we're a
family now. is what's important.
And then we're home and we don't deal with any of the fallout of
that at all.
Whereas do you remember DS9, the 2nd half of the DS9 finale is
them all going their separate ways and having to deal with the
fact that they're all going their separate ways.
It's really heartbreaking.
Can I talk about how shittily this is directed?
So this is stellar cartography, astrometrics, one of those.
We're in astrometrics.
It's the place, I saw this tweet during the week.
It's the place where 7 goes to give the PowerPoint presentations
about this week's space anomaly to the rest of the crew.
Astrometrics.
She's speaking to Neelix on the screen.
And for some reason, the director can't get their eyelines right
or isn't even attempting to get their eyelines right.
So they don't at any point look like they're looking at one
another and it's really kind of terrible.
Like it's really just not very good.
Well, can I say the irony that Neelix?
Lovely, lovely Neelix who I know you're very keen on.
Um, but I would say the audience as a whole.
He's probably the least favourite character on Voyager, or one off
got the best ending of the entire crew, but he got a whole episode
dealing with him leaving the ship.
And now we get to learn that he's in fact very happy and he's got
a nice family.
GoDelix.
Yeah, and that's it, that's him, isn't it?
Or is he back later in this episode?
I can't believe.
That's his one little scene.
Well, he had to appear at some point.
Yeah.
I think so.
Yeah.
I should have got Kes back.
For some reason now, the director was shooting this handheld.
Did you notice that going behind their backs there as if this was
a dramatic scene for some reason.
That's all right, whatever.
But so this is kind of interesting.
So they've found this bundle of wormholes that lead to the alpha
quadrant and we'll later find out that it's a Borg transwarp hub.
That line I really like.
So the thing, the thing where they discuss the possibility, you
know, don't tell your mom, you know, I could tell my mother and I
could be home at my mother's place, you know, by the end of the
day if we go there and um, and Janeway sort of says, oh, yeah, well
look into it, uh, you know, who knows we might find one that ends
up in your mother's living room.
And then, and then later on at the end of the scene, Janeway says
call your mother and tell her to move the sofa.
I think that's a cute line.
Like, that's a sort of sweet bantery kind of line that doesn't
make me want to...
I'd say to you.
I thought that was really agonising.
Oh, dear.
We really are.
We are in different places, but there's something going on.
Well, it's just that so often the Voyager banter is so bad.
And often it involves Beltran, Robert Duncan McNeil.
And so it's really awful.
I do think, though, that whilst the banter is frequently
shockingly awful.
I do think there is a genuine chemistry between the crew.
And when they're all in scenes together.
I do feel that sort of family feel that they're going for.
And that's, I think, I don't think it's the characterisation.
I think it's the actors that have worked together for 7 years and
I really relaxed around each other and love being together.
So, you know, I will give them that.
And I think they're playing it up this episode.
I think they are going out of their way to be a little bit more
kind of at ease with one another in their performances.
I've never met anyone at all who has a strange vocal tick every
time they lie like this, like Reg Barkley.
So stupid.
What is this?
Him jumping on the Voy Japan waggon series 6 and seven.
It's very strange edition.
I like it.
Like, I like it.
And, you know, it's not just him on his own.
It is him and Deanna.
Yeah, you should have been Troy in this one.
This should be amazing.
Yeah, yeah, it would have been pretty good.
It would have been lovely to see you.
She'd just lie through her teeth, wouldn't she, Troy?
Oh, yeah.
She's off somewhere, you know.
That would have been really good, wouldn't it?
But they would have put her in ageing makeup and no one wants to
see that.
We've seen man other people.
We don't need to go there again.
I do like the older Janeway going off and doing all this
subterfuge, you know, going off to the Klingons, getting this
better, stealing it without giving them the money. you know I do
like all of that.
Oh, they've broken their word.
Like he breaks his word and so she says, all right, well, screw
it.
I'm just gonna take it.
It's really good and she gets to do fun things.
I think those scenes are fun.
It's fun to see her doing that stuff. of this ever happened.
I'm not going to stop saying that, I know.
I just watched it.
It happened as much as anything else on the show ever happened.
We're watching it now.
If you say so, okay.
Some of it really happened, and then the rest of it did.
Shut up.
Is this fiction?
Yeah, what?
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's not a documentary.
This commentary is really happening, right?
Right now.
Yeah.
No, this is fiction as well.
It's on a TV screen.
Love you.
Someone's devised this thing, okay?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, what do you think about the fabulous shuttle with the shields
you know, the physical shields, the emerge around the shuttle?
Why not?
We can do that now.
Let's do it.
Yeah.
I do like the fact that they give it to Voyager.
Again, I wish they'd had that earlier.
That would have been really useful.
Yeah, but, you know, we're like Planetorus's daughter.
Yeah, yeah, I think she's good.
And she's, you know, I think it's lovely to see her in an episode
where she's just going to be born and seeing how sort of fabulous
she is as well.
She's pretty good.
Yeah.
Or could be.
Well, you know, whatever.
That's all we're going to say.
Okay, we just forgot about that.
It's all we're getting.
You are your mother's daughter.
That means you got a fiery temper.
Yeah, yeah.
We have talked about that being slightly problematic, but there's
no getting away from it now at this point, I think.
What do you think of the new uniforms?
Yeah.
The Voyager uniforms are a bit of a problem anyway.
We said how much they look like kind of pyjamas and stuff in, uh
in state of flocks, how ridiculous they looked when they've got
you know, there's the pockets where they put the tricorder in a
pocket and they put their phase in a pocket.
They just look ridiculous.
Yeah, yeah.
I think the worst uniform, those are the early DS9 ones with all
the black and then just a little bit of colour on the top.
That's the Voyager uniforms.
Like, that's where I'll touch it very much.
Yeah, I think there are...
I like the gray.
You know, it's a bit more muscular.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I really like, I love the discovery, the red ones.
I really like those ones Yeah, well, the the 31st century ones or
what if they are.
I don't even know what century they're anymore.
Kind of sexy, though, fitted.
Do you know, um, I do remember a line from earlier in the episode
that is very funny and that is, it's not a line so much, it's the
delivery when Bilana Torre says, I want you to get this thing out
of me.
No, I think she delivers that brilliant.
If you can trust anyone to be angry.
It's Roxanne Dawson.
Yeah.
Look at Jayway's face here.
Look talking to this Klingon.
Yeah, no, she's really good.
She's really good.
This is good stuff.
This is like gambit. only not good.
I mean, only good.
Only good.
That's right.
Gambit is not good, just in case I said that.
I think there's only one word for that expression and that is
steel.
She has steel with her eyes.
She's really good.
So what is she after?
I'd never figure out what she was after.
Time Crystal.
I don't know.
A thing.
I just assumed it was a time crystal because they're Klingon
things, but it isn't.
It is something else, but it's whatever she needs.
How far in the future is this?
From 21 years.
Or just time?
Yeah.
21.
So in the last 21 years, there's been an episode of Star Trek
which introduces these crystals that's been very relevant.
Obviously, we've never seen it because we're not privy to anything
that happened.
I can't remember. 15 years?
I don't know.
I have lost count.
Another so many years.
I mean, they may as well just say a thing, mightn't they?
Like, for all the relevance it is.
Why don't we see Chell?
I don't want to see Chell.
Is he like, I guess Chell is like...
We saw a, did we see a bowling, offering out drinks?
Oh, okay.
Right, that must have been him.
I don't think it was chill, though, because he's overweight, isn't
he?
Okay.
Because there's chef, isn't there, in Enterprise who we never
see?
Do we ever say chef in Enterprise?
I don't know.
All I remember was in that episode where Tubok had to get the
marquee people in line and he made them run around the ship for 40
minutes.
That was overweight bullion.
I think it was Chow actually.
It was, it was, it was really sulky as well.
Was it Vorik as well?
Like, he was just...
Yeah.
Oh my god, it's a massive Borg cube.
That is actually a...
That's so good.
Where they duck, like they're even ducking because the...
They save some money for this.
The special effects are very good.
I think.
And I think later on, when you see the big ball city.
The array looks amazing.
It's terrific.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it's nothing new.
That's the bad way issue.
But I guess, you know, Voyager has the Borg as it's being bad for
I guess, you know, like it is kind of unavoidable.
I think you do want to have them do something, defeat the Borg.
I love how the ball queen has a sense of occasion because what
she's got is a spotlight that moves and follows her around
wherever she goes.
So, you know, it's very dramatic.
So this isn't the same Borg queen that we had in Unimatrix zero.
Now, that's Susanna Thompson, who did a few guest spots on Star
Trek the Next Generation.
And she was she was Lenara Khan in Rejoined.
She was the Nazi ex-lover.
Fantastic in that too.
Yeah.
No, so she's very different from the ball queen.
Yeah, yeah.
And so, but this is the ball queen from 1st contact.
And I guess that's fair enough because, you know, one of the
reasons that we have the Borg in Voyager, am I getting the timing
ride?
One of the reasons we have the Borgian Voyager is because they're
reusing props and costumes and stuff from 1st contact.
Very possibly, yes.
No, I mean, I genuinely think that they meet the Borg at that and
we see them over and over again because we've got all that stuff.
I think initially it was a creative choice.
I think, you know, they're like, we could do something interesting
with that.
And they do.
They absolutely do.
But yeah, you're right.
If we can borrow the sets and they're for the 1st contact.
Why not?
And in fact, here, this is one of the 1st times where we're seeing
those sort of 1st contact cubes, which, you know, it's not just a
square, it's got a bit more depth to it and layers.
Yeah, yeah.
And also... maybe they're boring.
They're special effects as well.
Yeah, but the way that they're directed, like they're directed to
look like squares normally.
And so if you can direct them so that they're coming into the shot
at an angle or something so they look more like physical objects.
Like you remember in best of both worlds, the cube is just looking
at you straight on and in that one, we got to see its angles and
stuff and it was a little bit more interesting.
Do you remember?
And Q-Hoo, when we saw a close-up on the cube regenerating and
all...
That was so creepy, wasn't it?
Whatever happened to the ball being that creepy?
Do you think that what that was was a plastic model of the surface
that they just ran a hairdryer over and then played the film
backward?
I don't I reckon it could have been.
No, no, I think it looks it looks really weird.
I couldn't quite figure it out.
So that's what I liked about it.
Whereas, you know, I'm going to be a bit mean again.
Now the Borg are literally reduced to someone standing there
strutting in a spotlight going, I am going to take you down, you
know, and just not interesting.
Yeah, but I mean, with the board queen can work and we saw that in
that episode of Picard series too, that we watched where that Borg
queen in Picard was just magnificent, so properly good.
But that's because they were doing something interesting
psychologically with Agnes as well.
And that was really kind of creepy.
But it's...
Yeah, but when the Borg 1st arrived too, remember, that the makeup
they're just white, right?
They've just got white skin.
And the mottled zombie Borg only really come in in 1st contact.
And that's the version of the Borg that Voyager brings us.
So I just watched Scorpion part 2 like a week or so ago and seeing
Jerry Ryan as the sort of mottled kind of zombie borg is pretty
great.
She's pretty good. how far she's come.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But you know, you know the bit later on, obviously, where the
older Janeway confronts or doesn't, because she's a hologram, the
ball queen.
And I feel like it's supposed to be this sort of climactic moment
between these 2 characters, you know, from this story between
them.
And it's just not there, is it?
It's not what it should be.
The special effects are great.
Our arms are falling off and it looks amazing.
But it doesn't have a sense of occasion that it probably should
have.
And so what we have in this scene is them very, very quickly
dealing with that, the conclusion to, what did you say it was
called?
Human error.
Not called real life.
That's another one.
Um, so human era.
What does he say?
Yes, suddenly your cortical nodes are not being affected.
No, no, he says, I've been working on a thing and instead of being
a series of procedures that will take a lot of time, you just come
here after work and I'll have it done by the time the commercial
breaks over.
Do not think through these seasons, Nathan.
No, that's it, isn't it?
But I think they, I think that they just did whatever ending they
needed to make human error work and they relied on the fact that
you can just bullshit your way with techno babble through that
sort of thing and at a lot.
But also as well, right?
This shows they are pandering to these sort of people because who
gives a fuck how human error ended.
Just letting them have the romance.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, you know, part of the thing about the late season
romance, though, is that, you know, like they did with Troy and
and Worf.
They only do it because it doesn't have any consequences and they
don't have to worry about it.
Do you know what it means?
having that scene.
It means the techno babble is as important as the emotion.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
That's a problem.
Oh, here she goes.
Okay, here's the older joke.
I'm going to stop bitching because older Janeway is about to be
very cool. very fabulous.
And taking your technology and I don't give a damn.
It is so wonderful, isn't she?
Bless her.
She is great.
Oh my god, I love this.
I love that armour so much.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Do you know what it looks like?
looks like an armadillo, doesn't it?
Yeah, yeah. really terrific.
And you can see it's beaming into existence around the ship.
Like you get the the transporter um effect.
I think it's really good, you know.
She said, what do you want?
She has no fucks left again.
You can't do it better with Kai Wynn just before he killed her.
He said, are you still here?
She just hangs up on him.
Sorry, busy.
Do we do we know that she's often a future to chase things yet?
Or do we don't not know until she emerges?
No, I got the impression I can't, I don't know, because I was
watching it, having watched it before and knowing what the premise
was.
But when I watched this, I wasn't, oh, here we go, here's Harry.
I think it becomes clear to even the very slow-witted viewers
amongst us what's happening because Harry's here to stop her.
Yeah.
Oh, no, it doesn't she says something by Chakotay's grave, maybe?
I can't remember.
This is exactly how timeless plays out, though. when La Forge
turns up to stop Harry.
Garrett Wagn must be going, I'm getting, I'm getting deja vu
here.
I was on the other side of this conversation last time.
Well, you know how we said that not enough had gone wrong for her
to change the timeline and for everyone to let her change the
timeline?
And that's the genius of timeless, isn't it?
Because it's got that incredible visual of the of the ship under
the ice, which is incredibly well realised.
And and so there's a very potent scene at the end where he leaves
the message to himself as well.
I love that.
So it's not a reset button because Harry knows about it. he
doesn't quite know how that message gets there, but it's really
properly good.
Do you know, I really like this scene because I think the Harry
Janeway relationship.
That has been played out throughout the entire run.
She has been like a mother figure to him.
They've had a few spats along the way.
He's thrown his toys out of the pram a few times.
And I like the fact that he's coming in now and he's a captain and
he's basically saying, look, I'm here to tell you back, all
right?
What about this?
Did she just talk him around?
can't remember.
Did she just talk about that?
She actually says, I remember a young Harry wanting us to fly into
a nest of wormholes that was a Borg drone thing, you know, in
order to find a way home.
So she's actually talking about the event that we've just seen
like reminiscing about the event that we've seen in the present
timeline, which I kind of like.
I think, again, all of the all of the relationships are so
promising and just never go anywhere.
And so we've said that the one between Chakotay and Janeway was
often good and had the potential to be really good.
The relationship between Janeway and Tuvok, which they're really
leaning into in this plot is also just really, really excellent
and just absolutely underused.
And the relationship between her and Garrett's character, again, is
just wonderful and it really, really had the potential because
he's that age, you know.
Yeah.
What's frustrating is, is throughout the rum that you could
probably cite like what, maybe 3 occasions or episodes where those
relationships really hear.
Yeah.
So you know, you just, you know it could work brilliantly.
And then, and then we're stuck doing procedurals and working
things going on and salamander babies and but I don't think those
things are inconsistent or like incompatible with good Star Trek.
And if you look at Strange New Worlds, it does those things, the
characters have well-defined relationships with one another that
develop, they're fun and funny.
There's time to do banter.
There's time for us to enjoy ourselves and there's time to get a
space problem solved, you know.
I'm sorry, Nathan.
I'm watching.
Kiss right now.
Yeah.
I mean, it is nice to see Jerry Ryan being romantic, but I much
more believe her with graphic than I do with Chakotay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Although, you know, Chakotay's a handsome man, and she's a
beautiful woman, and like, if you're going to have heterosexuals
on these shows, you may as well.
It takes away from 7 because he's so boring.
I refuse to believe she was born for somebody, that boy.
She just thinks it's hot, though.
Do you know what I mean?
She doesn't listen to him or anything.
She switches off her auditory cortex while he's in the room and
then just...
But I do like seeing her playing it more relaxed, the way that she
plays it in Picard now, where, you know, she is, she's still
awkward and a bit of a nerd and stuff and a little bit of a sort
of science geek, but she's a little bit more normal and relaxed
and talks like a normal person.
And the seeds of it are sown here.
And I actually like her performance in this a lot, you know.
And there was a few times in this season where they let her let
her.
Do you remember the episode where, um, she's the doctor?
So she's playing Robert Picardo.
Do you remember that one?
Yeah, and she's and she's flirting with people outrageously.
She's eating all these desserts. everything like that Oh, what's
that one call?
I can't remember what it was called.
It's absolutely hilarious She plays it up.
Brilliantly.
I think they got to that point where they were just like, let's
just let her have fun, you know.
I'm watching that when we finish here, you know.
It's really really funny.
And then she and then when she goes back to being 7 or 9 again, She
tells him off she got, you made me flirt with that person.
You made me...
I got a weight.
I've seen what I have to fit into.
Okay, Harry's off.
Harry's off Is she ever going to go to the future?
This is taking forever.
Yeah, I like this scene though, but again, because it's a two
parter in syndication, they have to meet at halfway point.
So we're about to hit the half going.
Do you hear what it's called?
A chrono.
Chrono. what we want.
It's not quite as good as the temporal biobed.
Biotemporal biotemporal therapy.
Was that in?
In before and after.
Yeah.
Right at the beginning.
Tell us what the episode was about in the 1st line.
So bad.
Do you know, one thing I was aware of was how you watch episodes
like Sacrifice of Angel, things like that, and they had some
fairly dynamic battles.
I'm not sure why a Voyager.
They couldn't really do exciting battle scenes.
Generally static spaceship shooting.
It's the next generation version of a battle scene.
Yeah, like these are moving in a straight line.
Oh, look, here's the USS Rhode Island coming in the back to save
the day.
I actually got...
The Borg Transwarp, um, hub reminded me a lot of that.
That, um, the shipyard, that they destroy in, um, shadows and
symbols.
It's a couple of years later.
So it looks a bit more impressive.
It does look a bit more.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it's got a similar kind of vibe, all sort of spindly and kind
of weird looking.
But I do like the idea of that, that sort of bulk city that they
go into.
But and then I would, my mind goes into overdrive and I'm like, oh
you could do so many exciting things with this.
And it's not.
It's just blown up.
Yeah, they could do it now, couldn't they?
I never, I'll never forget that shot from, was it Picard episode
one where you're in the middle of the board cube and it comes out
and it keeps going and it keeps going and we go through all the
layers of the Borg ship until we come right outside of the ship
and you see it from the distance.
Yeah, I think it gives, I don't know, the depth.
Yeah, so good.
And I was like, okay, that's that's the effects we're playing with
nowadays.
So this is, she's just come in through the wormhole and we're
having a whole yesterday's enterprise thing only if Rachel Garrett
was John Luke Picard, I guess.
And this is the end.
So this is the this is the cliffhanger.
Oh, so we get the Borg Queen saying some villain line, probably
and there we, then we, I don't know, she just, she just looks, she
just looks.
That's pretty good.
That is pretty good.
All right.
Yeah, so that's it.
That's our commercial break and the end of part one.
So basically, the cliffhanger is, we're doing deadlock.
Well, yeah, except the deadlock is is different, and I think this
is different.
I think deadlock is very good.
I think deadlock is very good, but I think what this does is what
the show has to do in the finale as well, which is to re-examine
in the decision that she made in the opening episode in the in the
premiere.
So Janeway has changed and become more cynical.
And even look at how they, I mean, she says that she's finding it
hard to play against her.
And, you know, like they must shoot scenes where they're not with
the other person in the room necessarily or whatever.
That must happen from time to time, and it's not as good as being
there.
But it's just the blocking.
It just looks so weird.
So suddenly it doesn't feel like a performance.
It feels like an effect. the coffee offer.
Did you see that?
She just took a cup of coffee.
She didn't look natural, though. doesn't look natural.
They can never do this in 90 straight.
They do it a lot.
I don't think it ever really works.
I remember the 1st time they tried it.
So in 2nd chances, you've got the 2 Rikers on either side of the
screen.
The way that Samantha and Serena in Bewitched would be back in the
60s or early 70s.
You know, they could do it provided, and sometimes you would see
the line down the middle of the screen.
And they're both staying right on their side of the screen and you
kind of think, oh, yeah, okay, I know how this is done.
And then one Riker walks off and walks onto the other side and
walks around the other Riker and looks at him.
And it's so amazing.
It was absolutely mind blowing at the time.
Do you know what's the, what I think is like the best one is in
Crossover, where it's Intendant and Kira, and she's flirting with
her and she leans in to kiss her and, you know, the effect is
terrible.
I'll give him props for props for none of his, but given that a go
I'll tell you.
But, but I mean, what we have here is, like, in Janeway's right
okay, Voyager's home, I'm an admiral, some people died, you know
but fewer people than we might have expected given the way this
show goes normally.
So that's a problem, as we said before.
That's a real problem.
If the ship had undergone, had just limped home and lots of people
had dying had been really terrible.
Like timeless.
I mean, it's all right to go back and save the ship when
everyone's dead and they're kind of frozen in ice.
But here, you know, they just, it takes them a bit longer than
they expected and we're going to destroy the entire future to do
it.
Like, that doesn't really make any sense.
And so, but let's just pretend something worse had happened.
Now we've got an admiral who's lived through all of that and she
thinks that Janeway's made the wrong decision, you know, in
caretaker, I think.
She doesn't explicitly say that. doesn't she?
Our Janeway does condemn her and say, no, you shouldn't be doing
this.
This isn't right.
Which is the right response.
But she does, like, because what's going to happen.
But what ends up happening is, though, they are going to go home.
They're going to use the technology that she has to get past the
Borg and then get home through the transwarp. network or whatever
right?
Yeah.
And that's all fine.
But then they realise that they could destroy.
They're in a position to destroy the conduit instead and cripple
the Borg, and they all decide to do that.
And that's the decision.
And that's what's great.
That's the decision that Janeway made on her own without
consulting anyone else.
And now all of the crew, including Harry, get to make the same
decision.
We're prepared to forego our chance at a voyage home because we
can do some good instead.
And I think that's really good. think that's great.
Let's not go home.
Let's do mass murder instead.
No, well, let's prevent the Borg doing mass murder.
And they even talk about the 1000000s of people that the Borg will
now not kill because they don't have the transwarp network
anymore.
Like I think that's pretty good.
You know.
And then, and then she does, she does, you know, what I think is
really great.
It turns out because we have an extra Jane way.
We can, um, We can have our cake and eat it too.
So she gets to go home and destroy the Borg and that way, you know
just... everything about these plots that annoy me.
See, I love that sort of stuff.
I just sort of think, no screw it.
We, you know, our Janeway has convinced Admiral Janeway.
Like, and like has genuinely convinced Admiral Janeway, that in
fact, you know, they're right, and the sort of cynicism that she's
developed is wrong, you know, and she's enjoyed meeting, you know
the new, more ide- the fresher, more idealistic Janeway, all of
that.
I love that stuff.
It becomes an examination at all. how the 2 characters are very
different and how they are starkly contrasted against each other.
And I do like how much of a bitch the older Jane Weirs, because
she comes in and did you hear what she said a minute ago?
Well, how do you know I am not a member of Species 8472 in skies.
You know, like she's not even like trying to pretend she might not
be who she says she is.
And it does lean into the biggest strength of Voyager, and that is
having more K-mong group because that's never a bad thing.
Well, did you see that scene just then where she's standing in
between, um, uh, Beltran, and I think it was, um, I think it must
have been, um, Harry, and just laughing, like old Janeway, and it
was just really kind of fun and companion.
Here we go.
I just, I just, this is a person, I just couldn't be less
interested in all of this.
I, you know, like, like, take a look at Deadlock and what Deadlock
did, you know, and the Janeway makes the ultimate sacrifice.
She blows up the bridge and has a fabulous scene where the VD
install me and she goes, welcome to the bridge just as it blows
up.
And is this done just a 1000000 times cooler than this?
Yeah. you know, and less languid. and less protracted. and I'm
sounding like an old grub, aren't I?
Well, I mean, I think that we want this. this is the last that we
get of this crew and even though they've been, you know, good at
times and not quite so good at other times, you know, like I'm
you're sorry to see them go.
And I think we get to spend some time with them.
They get to do some Borg shit, which is kind of exciting.
We get to relitigate the main moral dilemma of caretaker.
And then we get to go home.
You know, like, it's not...
Are you saying, Joe, you, you know, you should know at this point
in Voyages Run, you're never going to see anything new.
Just enjoy what they're giving you. essentially.
I think that this is the best we could probably have hoped for.
And I guess there are things that I think they could have done to
improve it, but I don't think it's a terrible choice.
You know, I think these are the sort of things that we want to
do.
They are sort of done a bit boringly, you know, that's kind of
true.
Oh, yeah, see, she is kind of uh, getting a bit flirty, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, good.
Why wouldn't you?
It's Jerry Roy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, they're both gorgeous women.
Do you know what the original idea was for this?
Originally, um, when Voyager emerges, um, there was supposed to be
an entire Bulwark army that was heading towards Earth, and then
Voyager was going to have the secret to, you know, starting a
cascade reaction, and the whole army was going to blow up in a
spectacular, not just one ship.
And then Voyager was going to ride through to Earth.
And that was how it was going to win.
All right, well, you know, that's kind of what happens. did a
cheaper version of that.
I do think that's I think that's a pretty great visual, isn't it?
With the Borg spear.
Far out.
I can't even talk with the with the Borg sphere blowing up and and
Voyager kind of heading out of the explosion.
I think that is pretty awesome.
You know, my you know what my problem is, don't you?
It's TS9, right?
Which was so good, uh, longtime arcs dealing with consequences and
leaning into the interesting parts of the characters and the
situation.
Well, this show really doesn't do none of that.
But there's so much it could do and there's so much it could do
with them going back to work.
And that last shot of Voyager, heading towards the bloody earth.
And I'm like, I just, I want to know everything that comes next.
Yeah.
You know, and not in a, oh, leave him wanting more sort of way.
In a, you didn't give me anything.
No, I think it has to be that.
Holy crap, did you want these people to write?
you want to find out from the people who brought you episodes like
human era, how everyone ended up living their lives on earth?
I think it's best left to a start.
Well, don't buy that because in series 4, when they make contact
with Earth, they do, like the whole half the episode leaves over
it.
And it's Janeway learning about Mark moving on.
It's Torres and Chakotay learning about the marquee being gone.
Is that I of the Needle?
can do it.
No, it's, it's the 1st one with the Hirogen, where they get the
Hirogen.
It's like the concepts.
So they can so they can make so they can get letters from Earth.
Or they start learning.
So it's not that they can't do it.
It's they choose not to do it.
And here, you know, like they could have chosen.
Look, they chose to do this sort of Borg thing and whatever.
And there is a way of doing it, of making the show about the
characters while still being a Star Trek episode, while leaning
into the characters more, because there's, like, they haven't been
super successful over the 7 seasons defining the characters in
their relationships.
And that's always been kind of window dressing to this week's
space problem.
So maybe they could, we could have had more of the letters from
home thing and more of the pathfinder stuff.
We get in Paris, don't we?
We get Admiral Paris, we do get Barclay earlier on, but they're so
little.
Like I said, one of the best ever scenes is when Harry Kim's mum
turns up and starts having to go him.
She goes, she goes, put Janeway onto me.
I'll talk to her about your promotion.
When he was getting fat.
I think she goes, have you been practising your clarinet, Harry?
He's like, yeah.
Every other week.
I'm the Riker clone on this show, remember?
I think plays the saxophone later, doesn't he?
Because the clarinet... a minute ago between 7 and Shakotay, where
she's like, I'm defining the parameters of our relationship.
I'm not getting close to you because one of us is going to die.
Oh, good God.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's the same thing, but it's okay for 7 to do that.
It's kind of boring and played for her to do that for her to
discover that, you know, that you go into a relationship and that
it ends in some way and that's heartbroken for anyone who's still
alive, you know, like that's a thing.
But it's just Janeway being an older woman kind of going, yes, 2
of my friends have died and one is very sick and you kind of think
Jesus Christ.
So what?
You know, like we just live with it.
The rest of us do.
They should say, we shouldn't listen to her.
Another version of me turns up every other week.
I did love the sentiment of here.
There's a couple of bits in this 2nd half where I really liked how
they were talking about being a family avoyager.
They say, don't they?
Bringing up the child on Voyager, would that be such a bad thing?
We've gone a family here.
We've got a home here.
We've developed a relationship.
I like that.
And I do like the bit where Harry says the same thing.
He gets he gets the big sort of hero speech.
Which he doesn't surprise me that they gave him to.
But look at that.
Look at the look at that.
It's the armour going on the on Voyager. looks so good.
If she don't say much, does she, Alex?
I didn't have the same name.
Yeah, she does very sinister.
Yeah.
She turned up in a big finish audio, you know.
She was pretty good.
Yeah.
She strode between Star Trek and Doctor Who.
So a few people, well, in fact, lots of people do.
Why are they in this sort of gaseous area?
Well, it's an ambular where the where the transwarp thing is.
I don't know, I don't believe we've been in a nebula before in
Voyager, you know?
No, I don't think they've ever had a nebula on the show.
I wonder if there's coffee in this nebula. surprised, you know
there wasn't an anomaly in this.
That was sports kind of normally.
It's sort of an anomaly, isn't it?
If you, yeah, Chewbox behind a tactical console again, back with
the logs.
No, he's reporting on the armour integrity, which is a fresh new
departure for him instead of the shield. integrity.
He's having a big week.
But like, do you remember when destroying a Borg cube was like the
toughest thing ever?
Yeah, we have to use future things.
We have to use fewer days.
We can just blow them up 10 a penny, you know?
But how are they scary now?
Well, they don't have to be scary because we've never seen them
again.
This is it for the Borg.
Say goodbye to the board.
We will be seeing them again.
We're going to see them in Enterprise in a couple of seasons.
Yeah, but yes.
And then we're going to see them again in Picard.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But that'll be a long time away, and they do want to join the
Federation, so they're not really that scary by that point.
Doesn't this look good?
Do you remember those scenes in Picard series one on the ball
ship?
Oh, they went on forever, didn't they?
They did.
They did have some pacing issues in that 1st series and maybe in
the 2nd series as well, to be honest, but I still really like
them.
I kind of wish this, like, you know, this ball city, you know, it's
like, you know, they go along and there's the ball having a party
you know, and this is where they all live and this is where they
have some fun.
No, it's not.
It's there.
It's their Transwarp pub.
We must have had this before.
So this is...
This is how they...
It's a bit like the Iconian gateway, yeah.
This is how they send their cubes off into all the where is the
space.
I kind of...
Yeah.
You know, you're starving.
Just a pretty face.
So this is a big deal.
This is how they travel all around the galaxy, because remember
that, you know, when Picard met them originally, they were in on
the other side of the galaxy and Q through.
Were they in the Delta Quadrant?
Well, no, I think...
No, I don't think we had quadrants back then.
In fact, I think quadrants get established in the price, which is
series three, I think, that with the two.
And I think the price is the one.
Is it the one where the 2 Ferengi end up in the Delta Quadrant?
It's a Troy episode.
I think it's a Troy episode, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think so, because there's a beta Zoid negotiator.
But I think the 2 Ferengi end up in the on the other side of the
wormhole and then they appear here in series of which.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, series three.
It's called False Prophet.
False profits.
Okay, it's as late as that.
They managed to pull the wall over this entire civilisation and
turn themselves into gobs.
So this is really good. isn't it?
So they now know that they're going to use the transwarp conduit
and that's how they're getting home.
And they immediately say, well, that's no good.
We should be destroying the conduit.
We can't use it, you know.
And it was the same with the caretaker.
I think it's really good And this is where the concept...
It's been a couple of moments, doesn't they?
Where there's been the potential to get home at a cost.
Yeah.
Okay, so maybe I didn't actually see this.
I probably phoned out of the episode at this point.
But yeah, there is a stark parallel with Caretaker here.
Yeah, we know, it's the same decision.
It's literally the same decision.
Do we use the caretaker to get home and allow the Cazon to
massacre all your kampa?
Um, and here, it's a bit less.
Well, we don't even know who the account private, it doesn't
matter.
In both cases, though, because the account was so boring because
we're not really seeing any consequences to the ball.
But we do keep going.
We've seen the ball.
It's all sort of a theoretical moral here, isn't it, rather than
a...
But I mean, we've seen the Battle of Wolf 359 a couple of times
and we've seen 1st contact and stuff like that.
Like, we know the Borg can invade us and this would stop them.
But when they were chilling, you can just destroy them with a
quick bolt these days. right.
Sorry, I'm being really mean.
See, here we go.
Here they are.
Mulgrew acting and she's criticising.
She's calling it a mistake. you can't make that a mistake This was
great where Mulgrew one, our Mulgrew is on a high ground and then
the older mole grew...
Stops her in her tracks, doesn't she?
Yeah.
Oh, I'm glad we were we were spared the wedding of 7 and Chakotay
how they should have started it.
No, you know that.
Dreadful life.
There'd be awful like Borg style vows, wouldn't there?
It could be it could be like the wedding of Troy and Riker in
Nemesis with that shitty, shitty speech from Patrick Stewart that
everyone likes.
I now pair my cortical implant to you or something like that.
It'll be dreadful, wouldn't it?
Oh, she's got another one.
She's got another one.
Go on, sorry.
Oh, okay, all right. 7 died.
Okay, then.
How about this one?
Tuvok has a neurological condition.
Oh, wait a 2nd.
Maybe I won't.
No, no, no, I'm still going to destroy the trats off.
And if you don't, if you don't change the future, this is what
Robert Duncan, McNeil's going to look like.
Bobby got bald.
Oh, he's groaning on the head.
What's going on?
Oh, so Tuvok's already suffering.
Well, that's why he lost.
That's why ECM could beat him at Calto and like that was clear at
the time.
Yeah.
Had this been another show, they might have ceded this earlier in
the season.
No, but I think that's a good time to seed it.
Like, they do seat it.
Like, and it's interesting that it happens here at the same time
as we're learning the consequences of it.
And I think it's ingenious too.
Like, how can they possibly not be a cure.
Like they are in contact with Starfleet, there's a cure if it had
been Vulcan.
And so her decision now is the decision to allow him to suffer
from that neurological condition.
If she doesn't go home now.
You know, if she blows up the thing.
And so I think that's more interesting because she can't tell
seven, but she can tell.
G-Wog just pulled out the spot quote.
The needs of the mini.
Yeah, and look at...
It looks very cool, isn't he?
Don't you think?
I think jukebox's great.
I think he's absolutely underused and should have been her
confidant more like that should have been his wrong.
Now she's trying to get under 7 skin.
Get her on side.
Oh, I tell you what, she's a bit of a cow bag, isn't she?
But she's wrong and she admits she's wrong.
And I think there's a good thing that happens too. and we'll get
there. that's why she chooses to sacrifice herself, doesn't she?
What they said was, in memory alpha was, they wanted to have their
cake and eat it.
So they basically wanted Mulgrew to be able to sacrifice herself
because they felt as if there should be some kind of cost to them
getting home.
Yeah.
So they bring an extra Janeway in and just...
It's an alternative Janeway from a timeline that never winds up
happening, which is that's my issue there.
Yeah, but it's still a Janeway.
I mean, you know, we see her on screen and all of that sort of
thing.
It doesn't matter how she gets there.
She's just a made-up character like all of them.
So it is, that's okay, I think.
Well, you know, like I think that the, that the, like Janeway
killing herself in deadlock is pretty damn awesome and that's only
one episode.
That's a great moment.
A good word.
Yeah.
I think that episode...
Because you think that the ship that's...
Sorry.
My point is, is in what you leave behind, I felt far more like
when DeMar was killed storming the Dominion headquarters. and he's
a secondary character on DS9. than I do with Janeway sacrificing
herself at the end of this because...
Where is that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, yeah, here we go.
This is where we're talking about the decision that she made 7
years ago.
Yeah.
So they are making it explicit now, just in case we didn't pay
attention before, which clearly I did not.
I didn't.
And so this is where they all decide to make that decision, you
know, and she's saying, I didn't know you.
You know, I didn't really understand what the decision, you know
what decision I was making.
I don't think they need to be so clear about this is our home.
You are my family.
Like, we get it.
We get it, right?
It's Star Trek.
It's always going to tell you rather than show you in this era
isn't it?
You know, like it doesn't do subtlety.
It's one of these fabulous moments where they go, you know, we're
not going to do this dangerous mission unless everyone agrees.
And I always want one person to just go wrong.
Yeah, actually, fuck that.
Let's just go home.
We've talked about it before, but the one in the 37th is the worst
isn't it?
It's like, you know, all the people that choose to leave Voyager.
Go to the cargo bay.
She's like, oh, how many people are going to be in there and we're
like, no, we know it's going to be no one.
I just want there to be one crewman going, well, this is a bit
awkward, isn't it?
I mean, you kind of do that in, you kind of do that in, in
discovery at the end of series two, don't you?
I mean, you don't have them saying, actually, fuck it, I'm not
going into the future with this lady.
I've got this big implant on my head.
I've got a girlfriend.
I'm staying home.
I mean, they get the, they got the, um, get out clause in
discovery where Georgia was in it because you can always be the
dissenting, but the lower decks, you know, they could do it any
episode.
There'd be someone there going, are you mad?
Take it on that fork?
Transwarp thing?
No way.
Look how that's shot too.
That shot's really weird because there was a shot where they were
all kind of in the corner of the shot having, you know, like we
were looking at them having that agreement from a long distance
away and then Janeway comes into shot and we see that that's her
take on it.
And so this, she's taken up coffee again.
She stopped. and she's taken it up again and she's going to take
up being idealistic again.
And I think it's, uh, yeah, you know, and again, it's also
obvious.
Do you see what I'm saying about, obviously, you do, because I'm
being quite clear about, like, just seeing the older episodes that
deal with the same things doing it better.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Because there's a bit coming up in a minute, right?
Which is pretty cool, which is Janeway falling the ball queen.
Yeah.
And she's like, well, I'm not really here.
So, you know, well, I did that in the Thor.
And I'll tell you what, it was a better ending when she said to
me.
Michael McKean in it, you know, like it's a great episode. scared.
I know, you know, it was so good.
I took frog this episode, I'm constantly going, oh, yeah, that
episode was great.
I mean, Star Trek is...
Instead of saying this episode is great.
But I mean, Star Trek does do that.
Like it does, it has obviously been eating its own tale for some
time.
I mean, what's... 90s track especially.
They got that TNG formula and then there were a lot of offshoots
of the same kinds of stories.
Well, I mean, insurrection has bits of who watches the watches and
it has Sorry, what now?
Yeah, Star Trek.
I don't remember that. film at all.
It's it's just a kind of a mishmash of various other Star Trek, the
Next Generation episodes, and I mean, this is better than that.
And this is, I mean, I do think the big crime is, let's redo
timeless, only dumber.
And that's, you know, like, that is kind of what...
You summed it up perfectly in a line now.
Well done.
I say, Janeway's love of coffee has been my favourite character
trait of hers throughout the entire run.
Yeah, well, I love coffee too.
Yeah, it's a thing that people do.
Yes, coffee and that nebula, Nathan.
Do you remember the necklace?
like, where's she goes into the missile and says to Nick, give me
coffee.
And he's like, sorry, captain.
She goes, I don't care, you give me coffee.
But look at this.
And then she plays it in this really ambiguous way.
And like, I think there's sort of warmth there, but she does pull
a bit of a face at some and...
Yeah, yeah, this, like I buy that.
I do think I do think she's characterising both characters well.
Yeah, yeah.
I just don't buy how it's all directed and put together.
It just takes me out of it.
I'm very aware this is constructed and I know you're going to say
this.
It's always constructed, Joe. I know, but I can actually buy into
it normally.
Yeah, yeah.
Look at that.
The artifice of the construction is very apparent. you know, Oh
there we go.
Back to 7 inch Kotay.
But I mean, this is just very much, you know, a show ticking off
the boxes that it needs to tick off, I think.
Nathan, are we keeping things professional again today?
Yeah.
You know what?
You saying yuck to Star Trek romance is one of my greatest joys in
life, honestly.
And in 90s trek, you're never out of examples, are you?
Oh, good grief.
No, I mean, they could have kept this going on for another season
but it would have been agonising.
No, no, no.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, they make the right decision to end it when it ends, I
think.
And I'm glad that they do this because this is kind of standing in
for character development because they weren't doing any of that
you know, for the run.
And it's kind of like it reminds us that these people's lives will
change when they leave, um, you know, like when they leave.
Does this end here?
and that's this is the end of it.
What?
Is this literally the end of their almost relationship?
No, no, no.
Look, look at, look at them.
He convinces her that that's ridiculous.
But they do talk, I think.
Don't they get to talk about their their future, like what they're
going to do.
But then in Picard, is this just all ignored?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, it's not me. someone not go to, you know, where's Chakotay?
She goes, who?
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't think we even mention it.
Okay.
He's probably dead by then.
Let's hope so.
Oh, no, he might turn up.
Don't worry, doesn't he turn up on good grief?
Prodigy.
That's Chakotay, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think he's on his own.
Chakotay.
I can't remember.
I still haven't seen the last 2 episodes and I meant to do that.
I feel really bad about it because I was really enjoying it, but
it's just another thing that I haven't...
Lower decks turning up...
Yep, yep, yep.
That happened this week.
Oh my god, so excited. can't wait to see that one.
Oh, sorry, back to end games.
Yeah.
Yeah, this is, this is, uh, uh, kind of cheesy scene, isn't it?
It's so kind of terrible.
And they all are, every scene between this pair.
No, but it is the way that the way that they write romance, I
think is just terrible on this show.
Back to Torres's pregnancy.
Oh, that's right, because what they're going to do is have the
epic and the intimate happening side by side.
We're taken on the ball and we're having a baby.
Well, I think it's we arrive high. have the baby.
Wait, they even do that scene?
In deadlock, though.
Oh, wait.
That's happening in deadlock as well.
Smack for Wildwood having the baby. really like this.
You know, that they were talking about there being a pool and
engineering and people were betting on when the pregnancy would
like when she would actually give birth.
And then in that scene, he inadvertently admits to her that he's
in that pool and he's betting on like 1500 hours today and she
loses her shit with him, which I think is really great.
I think that's really good.
Oh, I think that's the ultimate Tom Paris thing he could do.
This is actually quite a good scene for those 2 as well.
It's kind of like, so that's the last time we're going to see them
together.
Well, he kisses her and he touches touches her stomach.
Just the baby.
Yeah, because the baby's there.
You know why it's good, don't you?
Because he's not actually saying anything.
No, he's not acting too much.
But it's also that sort of thing where she tells him to go.
I'll be here with the doctor, the doctor's a good guy.
You know, like, I've got to be at the ship when we're there for
the final scene. doing the reaction shots.
I would like to say that, even though I do criticise the acting of
some of the Voyager crew.
I do think there's an awful lot of charisma in this cast, you
know.
And I have said to you on previous episodes, I actually think as a
whole, I prefer this cast to THE.
Yeah, and I think, you know, they'd had a couple of goes at it by
this point.
So I can understand that.
It's the writing that often lets me down.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
No, me too.
And you know, here we go.
So here's Janeway doing her the Thor trick now.
So she's she's a virtual older Janeway, taking on the ball queen.
Yeah, but that's...
That's not how it ends up, though.
Like, we don't just stop her.
Excuse me.
Spoilers.
When you say she's not flirting with her.
She's walking around there, checking her out this very second.
No, she's looking at a bum.
Yep, yep.
Captain Janeway, my God.
You've got better with age.
I think she kind of has.
It is pretty good that she's the only one who doesn't just look
absurd in those future scenes.
I do, do you know, I like the lighting in these scenes, you know
this sort of green lighting.
Yeah, well, yeah.
You're the one who always talks about the flat lighting in the 90s
all right?
They giving a bit of atmosphere, yeah?
No, that's true.
And there's practical lighting and stuff and things moving around
got the strobe lighting in there as well, which is quite
effective.
Yeah, it's like a disco.
It's like...
Actually, it is, isn't it?
Oh, no, that dreadful episode.
Do you remember?
I was convinced that was Marina Surtis as the villain in that, you
know.
This is really great.
Okay, what's current now?
left the playoffs.
Yeah, so she's threatening her.
Um, but doesn't, ah, yes, she's trying to convince them, isn't she
that she's betraying them for their own good.
I'm betraying them to get them home.
Yeah, and they don't destroy you.
No, what's interesting is that we actually don't know at this
point what what's true.
I mean, I think that the way that the acting has worked is it's
definitely saying that Admiral Janeway was telling Captain Janeway
the truth before leaving, but then she comes here.
We don't know what the plan is, we're not privy to it.
And so she's saying the same thing that she was saying to Janeway
but saying, but my decision is different.
They have to come home and I know we're not going to be able to
destroy the transwarp conduit.
And we think that she's kind of defeated when she's brought on
board by the queen, but in fact, that was the plan all along.
And I get that there's ambiguity here, but I think we kind of know
what's going on.
No, I think we know, but I do, like I did have for a little minute
because I couldn't really remember how this ended.
I thought this is actually a bit cleverer than I was expecting.
It was a little bit like, you know, the moment in state of flux
where it turns out Jakotay is not just a big moron who's been
played by Sesker all along that he actually had a plan and it's
the same thing here.
Oh my god.
Why did you have to bring up Cesca?
What?
The whole finale should have been about Sesca.
Back back from the dead.
We did have worst case scenario at the end of series three.
Oh, we had shattered in series 7, where he pops back to all... a
better finale than this personally, but the way he pops back.
See, Cesco, he goes to caretaker.
Back to when the ball 1st appeared.
Incredible.
So I kind of get what you're saying.
This episode's been constructed, so there's all those arguments
between the 2 Janeways. effectively setting up this betrayal in
inverted commerce.
Which then...
That's what is happening now.
So she's being really beamed on board because she's been detected
and but that was part of the plan all along.
So maybe there's a little more thought in this than I'm perhaps
giving it credit for.
Like, I don't know what she's fucking brought on board.
I can't remember, but it's a techno babble thing that destroys the
entirety of the thing. in about 30 seconds by not doing anything
really much more than...
She's from the future, I remember.
So they may have had developments.
They may have had, you know, in bringing down the baulk.
Yep.
Poison nail polish or something and she just...
Anti-plastic, I believe it's called.
Plastic.
Yeah, yeah.
Just whatever.
Well, I do love...
I mean, it's, um, the theatre of the moment where our arms start
snapping off and things like this. is great.
It's crazy.
Oh, wow.
And I love how Margaret looked. got all of her face mangled up by
Borg technology and nanaboxes.
Except that we've seen that.
Sparks flying.
Didn't we say that before at the end of series 6 or whatever?
Unimatrix zero.
Don't they let themselves get a simulated?
I watched that this week.
Honestly, it was terrible.
Yeah.
Must makeup's actually a little more subtle.
Yeah, you've infected us.
She's grabbing the set.
She's literally grabbing that set like her life's worth it, isn't
it?
Oh, I'm going to make this moment count.
Voyager dashing down a tunnel there.
So, yeah, yeah, but I think that's really great and I'm glad that
that's not ended.
Like we're still being pursued and stuff.
We're still gonna try and keep the excitement going until we reach
the very end and, you know, like whatever.
Why not?
So, so I think the kind of the conclusion that we're coming to
here is the most we could have hoped for was a big bang of an
ending.
Yeah, like a big set piece.
I don't think it quite gets there.
You know, like Voyager has been better than this, as you say.
It's it's a mid-range Voyager episode. you know, which is a bit of
a shame.
Should you be going out on a mid-range episode?
No, no.
I mean, there have been better episodes than this.
The last episode we watched State of Flux, I think, was better
than this.
You know, this is okay.
But, oh, look, oh, ow.
She just tore it off like that guy.
That canyon ear guy.
I love that.
We got to the end of Voyager on an episode that was okay.
We're okay with that.
Yeah.
Well, so what are you going to do?
You know, like, you know, in some ways, all good things is fun, but
I didn't think it's a great episode.
You know, it's about a space. massive problem.
You got very angry in the 2nd 3rd of that one.
I'll tell you Yeah, it's just because it's a being space anomaly.
Naturally, we're just gonna do a stupid space anomaly and go out
on that.
And that doesn't matter because we know that we're going to see
them all in 18 months or something in the cinema, like, you know.
Well, reserve judgement on what you leave behind until we watch
it.
Yeah, yeah, but I will cry, probably at least once.
What we'll say is that you cut and win and have a very strange
engine.
No, that's stupid.
But, um, but yeah.
Yeah, you know, I would I would definitely say what you need
behind has a greater sense of occasion.
Yeah, yeah.
But it's wrapping more up.
There's more going on.
Really, what we're doing is what, you know, we've got to get
home.
We'll...
I needed 10 episodes.
They needed 10 episodes to get those characters wrapped up.
No, they didn't.
I mean there's nothing to them.
Oh, I see.
Right.
Oh, yeah, I think you're saying Voyager made the wrong decision by
not spending 10 episodes on where the characters would end up.
What were they going to do?
Wrap up the ball, kids.
Wrap up Naomi Wildman in an episode.
I mean, you've got the best secondary cast.
Admiral Paris could have a whole episode.
There he is.
Yep, yeah.
It's very strange though, you know, because as they come through
You think, as soon as Admiral Paris appears on the screen, if they
were in tune with their characters, then the shot would go
straight to Paris.
Yeah, yeah.
And they wait until the end of the scene and then we just see him
looking away a bit awkwardly.
And I'm like, yeah, you're kind of not focussing on the
characters.
You're more focussed on the plot.
Well, on this set piece, I think.
And, you know, the set piece does look pretty great.
And we've changed time and brought his arm back to the future.
I think we went into this game.
Well, let's do some, let's do a last stab, lots of weird shit.
Yeah, yeah.
And then someone else went, well, should we put some character
stuff in?
Well, yeah, you can have that as well.
Yeah, have a, but...
Mostly we'll buy hello to the cubes.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, look, they're Federation Armada is there.
Oh, God.
They've got a little better.
They look a little less cartoony than they did in Disney's time.
Galaxy class ship there.
Two years that, you know, I do love it when the galaxy class ships
are in the battles, you know?
They blow up pretty well.
Excellent.
Well, the enterprise blew up.
If you think about the whole sphere.
I don't really think much of a sphere, you know, it's not quite as
intimidating.
No, I like it.
But remember, remember, um, oh my god.
Is it the Corba might maneuver where they're attacked by various
geometric solids?
Like it's a sphere and a cube and stuff.
And there's the bulk sphere comes from 1st contact, obviously.
Um, yeah.
Yeah, well, they're little scout ships, the spheres.
They're hard to stack, you know, hard cargo.
There's no stakes to blow in this up, is that?
They're blowing these things up. doesn't mean anything.
Well, we got future tech.
We're allowed just for this episode blow the shit out of them.
Yeah, it looks cool.
Well, there you go.
What do you want?
You want it look boring?
It's already boring.
You may as well have interesting things to look at.
That's so great.
I have to say that this scene.
You've just summed up Voyager there.
It might be boring, got a leash, you've got interesting things to
look at.
Well, that's very rare in Nighty Streak to have interesting things
to look at.
I just can't get over how stunned they are.
So they're so stunned.
Like they can and like Janeway gets that next time we'll call
ahead line, which is, you know, nothing, but she doesn't deliver
it in a sort of normal kind of Janeway way.
She can still just barely believe where they are.
She's got says under a breath, isn't she?
We did it.
I thought like, yeah, it's a really good line reading.
Yeah.
Can I just ask, I'm more stunned at Barclay's hair?
Is he wearing a rock?
I don't know.
Oh, look, the baby.
Holy crap.
That poor baby.
It looks so much prettier than it did when it was CGI hanging in
the air in the holiday.
Oh, you're all holding back tears, like, the 1st childhood, the
2nd childhood.
That's actually nice.
Yeah, 2nd child born on fire, yeah.
Plus that baby that never went anywhere.
What happened to the baby?
I don't know.
Do you know what?
One of my favourite joys is watching the background players, you
know, there was a fellow at the back of the set there, smiling
straight to camera.
He was so happy that baby was born.
I don't know who it was.
He obviously knows Paris pretty well.
What's our last line?
Take course for home.
That's not a bad lie.
And then this very boring final shot.
Yeah, it annoys me so much.
So boring.
All I want.
I know you're going to say it. they never could have done it
justice.
All I want is is to deal with the fallout of what could have
happened.
Like you've got ex-marquee members there.
Terrorists.
You've got a Borg member of the crew.
Like, I know, but there's potential.
And this is the thing.
There's always this untapped potential. boring, though.
It would have been so boring.
We would have been going, where are the aliens?
Where are the space anomalies?
Where's, you know, I think they're right to leave it for Kurtzman
to do a sequel series later.
Like, you know, in another 5 years, it'll be Star Trek Voyager
again, and they'll all be fucking old, so we won't need to spend
quite as much money on latex, and it will be more kind of fun and
interesting than this production team could have done.
That it would have been boring because he's right as weren't up to
the top.
But it could.
It could have been great.
Yeah.
Like, that's what you could say about a lot of Voyager.
It could be fantastic.
And what it was ultimately was passable television.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, you know, but sometimes it was very good possible.
Occasionally brilliant.
Often.
Dreadful.
And more often than not possible.
Yeah.
Star Trek.
Do you know what I mean?
It's not really prestige TV.
Often it's really terrible, but, um, you know, like I thought that
that was okay that did the job that was required of it.
It's a shame that they couldn't go out on more of a high, on more
of a good episode, on a, you know, dark frontier or a real life.
But I think that they basically did the job that they were there
to do and that's probably what we should have expected.
I think you're mad.
It's indulgent, unambitious, and I actually found it a bit boring
as well.
Not how I would have seen out this show.
It was better than I remembered.
And it was worse than I remember.
So we've reached the end of a very long episode of Untitled Star
Trek Project, and it is our custom at this point to choose an
episode for us to watch next time, and it's my turn on the
randomiser.
Yeah.
I feel like we haven't done this for ages.
It's been a couple of weeks.
That's a bit.
Yeah, it has been a bit.
I've not got excited about watching my next Star Trek episode
because I've been watching Endgame for the last 2 weeks.
So how are you choosing to devise this this week?
Okay, well, don't get too excited.
So I've been doing a little bit of work on the website and it's
come to my attention that one of 90s trek has a disproportionately
low number of episodes that we have watched.
And so I know, I'm afraid that we are going next week to watch an
episode of Enterprise.
Fair enough.
From endgame to enterprise. something good at some point.
All right.
The only way is up.
I don't know about that.
Okay, all right.
So I have my finger poised on the button and I'm going to press
it.
Okay, this is season four, episode 12.
Babel one. have no idea what that's about.
So, uh, my encyclopaedic knowledge of Star Trek enterprise and my
ability to edit out the 5 minutes it just took me to look that up
on memory alpha and enables me to say that it's Babel one is
obviously a reference to Journey to Babel from the original series
and it is...
Yep.
Yeah, that'd be something.
Anyway, it's not on enterprise.
It is...
I think it's quite telling, Nathan, you know, that you and I
neither of us new, well, the episode of Enterprise or probably any
of these will be.
No, well, I don't, I mean, I haven't watched all of Enterprise, and
I've certainly watched, I think maybe none of series four.
Now, our rule is just to reiterate.
If we get a two-parter, like one episode of a two-parter, we watch
both, like we did for the most recent Deep Space 9 episode.
If it's one of a trilogy, we don't watch all 3 because that would
just be too long.
But I think I'm going to press the button on this.
This is called the Romulan interference arc and I just don't
care.
The unfortunate thing about season 4 is there's about 5 trilogies
in there.
Yeah.
But I do want us to do 4 at some point because it's an interesting
year.
Yeah, yeah, I'd like to do that too.
All right, let's try another one.
Acquisition.
Series one, episode 19.
Oh, God, it's the Ferengi episode. thought it might be.
It's really awful.
How did they do the Ferengi when Picard makes 1st contact with the
Ferengi in the last outpost.
I don't know.
How do they do the Borg when Picard 1st encounters the Borg?
They want to have their cake and eat it as usual.
Yeah.
Let's not come up with anything new.
Roll it again.
All right.
Series one, episode 6, Terra Nova.
I believe that might be the one episode that's about the character
whose name I can never remember because there's no episodes about
him.
Is that his name?
Meriweather?
Mayweather.
I believe one of that episode.
Oh, okay.
Terra Nova is Latin for New Earth, obviously.
I mean, I can tell you now that Jama gave it 2 stars out of four.
That's about all I can tell you about it.
Yeah, I don't know.
Nathan, I think it sounds really boring.
Can you try again?
Yeah, yeah.
I want to try and get a really good episode of Enterprise.
I realise the odds are against us.
All right.
I'm gonna try it again.
We can do this all night.
This will be the one.
Doesn't have to be.
Series three, episode 17 hatchery.
You did this one last time.
This is the one where Archer gets infected by the eggs.
He turns into the mother of this alien.
It's probably the worst episode of series three.
Okay.
Well, you just press that button one more time, please.
Series two, episode 5, a night in Sick Bay.
Oh, let's do it.
Jama gives this one star out of four.
But he hates fun.
It's important to remember that he hates fun.
That's true.
Do you know what the premise of this is?
Is Porthos sick and he spends a night in Sick Bay?
Yes.
Yeah.
I think I have a vague memory, not of having seen it, but of
having heard of the premise.
I remember it was agonisingly terrible.
Does he get better?
Because I'm not watching it if he's dead by the end of it.
Yeah, he makes it through the whole room.
Okay, all right.
He's fine.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's all this sort of comedy featuring Captain Archer and flocks
and the dog.
Oh, you know, well, I think it's written by Brannan Braga and Rick
Burnham.
Well, it's hard to get away from as written by Brannan Braga and
Rick Berman, frankly, if we're going to do Enterprise.
And...
And can I just say that Billingsley is the MVP of that entire cast
and the best one of comedy?
So I'm I'm cautiously optimistic.
You're brave.
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find
links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Caleb Cisrin, and the theme was composed
by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 3rd of October 2022 and released
on the 7th of October.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Enterprise, a night in Sick
Bay.
What do you think, I reckon I can do an out for that?
Okay, I'm so sorry.
I was so mean...
No, no, no.
That was good.
That was good. exactly good.
No, no, I agree with you.
I think it's kind of... nice things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I don't think it's quite as terrible as everyone thinks, but
it is pretty shared.
I'm surprised that there was an attempt to do anything, you know.
Okay.
I'm going to pull up.
Oh, do you know what I wanted to say?
God damn it, I completely forgot, but, um, It's like the um, the 2
sort of climactic moments.
In Endgame and what you leave behind, where the plots climax, and
there it's all kind of bangs and whistles, but it means nothing.
It's that bit between Janeway and the Ball Queen and it's all
tricks and effects.
And in DS9, it's the bit where Odo and the female shapeshifter are
together again, they merge and technically have like hours long
conversation, but it's 2 seconds.
So it's a nice little science fiction can see, come apart and she
goes, oh, well, we're going to stand down now.
He's coming back to the link.
But it means something because they've set up that relationship
and they've said, the Odo coming home would mean more to them than
the entire alpha quadrant. then they prove it.
Yeah.
And it comes at a real cost. like a proper cost.
So it's no bangs, it's no whistles.
It's an intimate moment between 2 characters.
That also does have giant things blowing up and shit, doesn't it?
finale?
Fabulous.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Well that's how it ends.
I like that. do like that a lot.