WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-06 at 22:47:34

1
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Hey, Joe. Hi.

2
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At the end of our last episode, I think I was pretty excited about doing this.

3
00:00:30.839 --> 00:00:38.820
This is vaulting ambition, which is episode 12, and I think it is the 2nd last.

4
00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:43.679
So the 3rd of 4 episodes of series one that is set in the Mirror Universe.

5
00:00:43.740 --> 00:00:44.100
Is that right?

6
00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:45.119
I think that is.

7
00:00:45.179 --> 00:00:47.399
It's our 1st venture to the very universe.

8
00:00:47.460 --> 00:01:04.260
Yeah, and I'm not going to have shit all over this right at the start of this, but I'd say it is one of the weaker Mirror Universe, and it's certainly probably the weakest of these four because it's like a transitionary between A to C episode, isn't it?

9
00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:04.739
Yeah.

10
00:01:04.739 --> 00:01:05.700
Yeah.

11
00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:18.540
So we sort of had a similar structure last time when we did image in the sand and shadows and symbols where there were basically 3 or 4 plot threads that were just running through the thing.

12
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But that was a whole story.

13
00:01:21.659 --> 00:01:30.299
And so those 3 or 4 plot threads all came to a climax at the same time and they all came to a conclusion and then we sort of met up.

14
00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:47.579
This is a bit more like an episode of a soap opera because, essentially, we have a few plots progressing and they just advance very gradually, and then there is a big climax at the end.

15
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And the other 3 mirror universe episodes, which the randomiser didn't choose, all have an actual coherent thing that happens in each of them.

16
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There's even like a massive twist or a big set piece or like there's a sequence between Locker and Giorgio, where they kick the shit out of each other for about 10 minutes.

17
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It was just incredible.

18
00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:11.879
Do you know what?

19
00:02:11.939 --> 00:02:13.139
I thought that this was going to be that one.

20
00:02:13.259 --> 00:02:15.000
I was so excited to watch.

21
00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:16.439
I'm like, well, what's this?

22
00:02:16.500 --> 00:02:18.000
It's just people talking for half hour.

23
00:02:18.060 --> 00:02:18.599
You know?

24
00:02:18.599 --> 00:02:19.740
Yeah, exactly.

25
00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:20.759
Exactly.

26
00:02:20.819 --> 00:02:37.560
And so I think the 1st episode is, you know, they arrive in the mirror universe and kind of find out what it is because this is the 1st ship after the Defiant, which must get mentioned in mirror, mirror, uh, to enter the mirror universe.

27
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They like using a defined in these mirror universe episodes, you know, because Enterprise rebuilt the defiant sets for their 2 passer and it is in the original series one as well.

28
00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:49.800
So yeah, there's a common location.

29
00:02:49.860 --> 00:03:01.560
Yeah, and it's the sort of thing that this version of Star Trek would do is to kind of go back to the very beginning and, you know, reference the Mirror Mirror episode of Star Trek, the original series.

30
00:03:01.620 --> 00:03:02.580
Of course, they would do that.

31
00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:05.159
Guess it's for the past, in Kurtzman Trek.

32
00:03:05.219 --> 00:03:06.180
I don't know what you're talking about.

33
00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:07.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

34
00:03:07.860 --> 00:03:15.599
And so our 1st episode is them arriving and then Tilly having to pretend to be Captain Keely.

35
00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:16.740
That's really fun.

36
00:03:16.740 --> 00:03:18.900
Yeah, which is really fun.

37
00:03:19.020 --> 00:03:23.280
It's like a dreadful pantomime because she's just cocking up in various ways, isn't she?

38
00:03:23.340 --> 00:03:26.039
Well, she really gets into it, doesn't she?

39
00:03:26.219 --> 00:03:29.520
And they put her in this fabulous gold costume.

40
00:03:29.580 --> 00:03:32.219
You know, very elaborate straight in her hair.

41
00:03:32.280 --> 00:03:36.419
She still has the straightened hair actually in this episode we're going to watch.

42
00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:50.460
And then the 2nd one has us meeting all the non-human races, all of the people who are kind of terrorised by the Terran Empire, and that includes Michael's father, Sarek.

43
00:03:50.520 --> 00:04:02.400
It includes Volk, who is then revealed to be the mirror universe version of Ash, and Ash is kind of activated by seeing Volk as a Klingon.

44
00:04:02.460 --> 00:04:04.379
And so there's a thing that happens there.

45
00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:13.199
And he murders the lovely Dr. Colbert in, I just couldn't believe when they... so bad.

46
00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:16.079
I mean, there was a bit of retro rewriting there, was it?

47
00:04:16.139 --> 00:04:18.240
It was Wayum Star rewriting.

48
00:04:18.300 --> 00:04:19.920
No, we like that character.

49
00:04:19.980 --> 00:04:21.360
Let's find a way to bring it back.

50
00:04:21.420 --> 00:04:23.100
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

51
00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:36.540
And, you know, then they go on and make fun of it with shacks between series one and 2 of lower decks, where, you know, it's just bridge crew members always kind of come back to life and it's best not to talk about it too much.

52
00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:41.459
But it is a huge mistake and it is an instance of bury your gaze as well.

53
00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:45.959
You have the 1st gay couple on Star Trek and you kill one of them.

54
00:04:46.019 --> 00:04:51.660
Which, given sort of the path discovery takes in terms of representation, is a bit shocking, isn't it?

55
00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:53.939
Yeah, it was a bad mistake.

56
00:04:54.000 --> 00:05:00.779
And then after this, after this episode, we have the giant climax and we have Locke falling into a...

57
00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:03.540
Which is literally like balls to the walls.

58
00:05:03.540 --> 00:05:06.000
That's really great. is amazing.

59
00:05:06.060 --> 00:05:06.540
Yeah.

60
00:05:06.540 --> 00:05:11.100
And, you know, after what's the woman's name, Giorgio, the actress.

61
00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:13.079
Oh, her cousin Michelle.

62
00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:18.060
And she's got a massive fuck off laser gun. and she's letting you crack, crack and shooting everybody.

63
00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:24.779
I mean, when she agreed to do this, You know, I almost she had that written in her contract. you know, I want a big gun, right?

64
00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:32.399
There is nothing like seeing a woman in her late 50s like kick the shit out of people and kick them in the head.

65
00:05:32.459 --> 00:05:34.319
You know, like she's so good.

66
00:05:34.379 --> 00:05:55.860
I mean, I'm convinced that the direction that the showrunner had before he was fired wasn't that they were going to go into the mirror universe and then the evil Giorgio was going to be a regular character, but it was the best innovation that came out of this whole mess because then she went on to be the best character in series two, three. good.

67
00:05:55.920 --> 00:06:13.920
So we will talk more about this because I do think that the mirror universe does the actual proper plot thing that a parallel universe is supposed to do in genre TV, which is you go into the mirror universe to see the consequences of what will happen if you get it wrong.

68
00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:19.620
And Star Trek Picard series 2 does this as well.

69
00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:22.560
The Confederacy and the, is it the Confederacy?

70
00:06:22.620 --> 00:06:23.339
The Confederation.

71
00:06:23.399 --> 00:06:24.899
No, the Confederacy's real.

72
00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:28.620
The Confederation and the Terran Empire are very similar.

73
00:06:28.740 --> 00:06:32.279
I still think that 2nd episode of Picard, you know, series 2.

74
00:06:32.459 --> 00:06:37.680
It's one of the best episodes they ever did with Picard, a mad pyrant dictator.

75
00:06:37.740 --> 00:06:39.959
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

76
00:06:40.019 --> 00:06:41.100
No, it's very good.

77
00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:43.740
But I think, like, the very universe.

78
00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:47.519
I think it's actually a little more divisive than I thought.

79
00:06:47.579 --> 00:07:00.600
I think people kind of either love it or hate it, because generally speaking, it's sort of dark comic book versions of the characters that we know, there's usually a lesbian about somewhere, you know, doing unspeakable things in leather.

80
00:07:00.660 --> 00:07:06.839
And I think the original series got it just about right when they did mirror, mirror.

81
00:07:06.899 --> 00:07:10.139
And that's that's a quite a dark episode.

82
00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:11.579
I won't re-roll that at some point.

83
00:07:11.699 --> 00:07:14.459
TNG didn't touch it at all, did they?

84
00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:17.939
They never went to the M University. books and things like that in spinoff material.

85
00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:26.339
And then DS9 really led into it and it did basically an annual visit. to the mirror universe with running pots going through it.

86
00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:33.180
And it's, it basically is the reverse of what DS9 usually does, which I think gets better as it goes along.

87
00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:41.399
Well, their mirror universe episodes start incredibly well with crossover and ends appalling me with the emperor's new cloak.

88
00:07:41.459 --> 00:07:49.319
And I think they just got a bit lazy as they went along and just leant on the sex and the violence and the action.

89
00:07:49.379 --> 00:08:07.740
Whereas the 1st one was genuinely like uh, this really, it's the station, but back as an all processing plant, Kira's this mad tire, and it's genuinely a very dark, very disturbing version of Deep Space 9.

90
00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:10.860
Enterprise, didn't touch it at all.

91
00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:14.100
And like, but it's like the 3rd or 4th to last episodes.

92
00:08:14.100 --> 00:08:17.819
And suddenly Enterprise is having fun and boy, do they have fun?

93
00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:29.519
That's one of the best Mirror Universe stories, that Enterprise one, with a gone running around the defiant, things like that. and Hoshi as a Hoshi's the eagle lesbian in that one.

94
00:08:29.579 --> 00:08:31.439
Finally given something to do.

95
00:08:31.500 --> 00:08:37.019
So here we don't have the evil lesbian because we're beyond that, I think.

96
00:08:37.080 --> 00:09:01.500
And so we don't do that, but what we do do is kind of confront the Starfleet people with this sort of bleak version of themselves or their world that isn't adhering to kind of the morals of Starfleet, that is based on an entirely different ethic.

97
00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:12.120
And given that they're at a point in the war, when they're having to make decisions about whether to junk their ethics in order to just win, it's really timely.

98
00:09:12.179 --> 00:09:32.879
And of course, there's digs at Trump, which, uh, seemed surprising at the time, but aren't surprising now years later after we've had seasons and seasons, of course, on trek, which is very, very clearly positioning itself against, uh, you know, the alt right and all of that kind of thing.

99
00:09:32.940 --> 00:09:37.740
I think it was surprising about this sort of four-part diversion.

100
00:09:37.860 --> 00:09:41.460
And the fact is 4 parts of, you know, a fairly short season.

101
00:09:41.580 --> 00:09:54.539
So they're committing a lot of time to this is the mirror universe could be sort of old hat at this point, but they genuinely breathe new life into it, you know, and do something interesting with it.

102
00:09:54.600 --> 00:10:12.000
And I, I'm not sure what I think about law car, who was established as a really interesting character at the beginning of this season, and then just turns out to be, you know, comic book villain. you know, of the week when, and you know, and then he's just summarily dispatched.

103
00:10:12.059 --> 00:10:18.840
And I'm wondering if that character was ever supposed to like remain with the show or this was always a path they were going down.

104
00:10:18.899 --> 00:10:20.460
And he's a lot of fun.

105
00:10:20.700 --> 00:10:28.980
But I just, I think all substance with law, just vanishes, the 2nd we jump into the mirror universe, and that's a bit of a shame.

106
00:10:29.340 --> 00:10:33.840
Yeah, I always kind of thought that at the time.

107
00:10:33.899 --> 00:10:44.759
Like, I thought, look, you know, there's a possibility it ends up him being from the Mirror Universe, you know, because he's the Starfleet captain who can't be bothered to learn whether a Gormagand is a fish or not.

108
00:10:44.820 --> 00:10:46.980
You know, like he just doesn't care.

109
00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:50.100
And he does seem to have a personality disorder.

110
00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:58.860
Like he is very unlikeable and he behaves in all sorts of odd, slightly creepy ways, particularly towards Michael.

111
00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:06.779
And it's kind of, you know, like I think there is kind of a mystery about why he's like that.

112
00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:12.360
And so we solve that mystery here, and I kind of think that's okay.

113
00:11:12.419 --> 00:11:18.299
And certainly, you know, maybe we weren't going to get Jason Isaacs for, you know, more than one year.

114
00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:23.879
Yeah, I just I would like him to stick around, you know, because he is very... good.

115
00:11:23.940 --> 00:11:39.899
Yeah, yeah Well, then conversely, though, I think on the other end of the scale, I found Georgia a little bit dull in those 1st couple of episodes, whereas her version in the Mirror Universe is just extraordinary, you know?

116
00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:40.559
Yeah, yeah.

117
00:11:40.980 --> 00:11:41.820
Michelle Young.

118
00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:47.340
We can't say she's not chewing the scenery because she's devouring it wholeheartedly.

119
00:11:47.399 --> 00:11:50.340
She's loving every 2nd of this.

120
00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:53.700
And that extends to the audience, you know?

121
00:11:53.820 --> 00:11:55.019
Yeah, yeah.

122
00:11:55.080 --> 00:11:59.940
This is Michelle, in a parallel universe, you know, before she had a whole film about it.

123
00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:02.700
And it is really great.

124
00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:06.840
And just the bond between her and Michael. is super interesting.

125
00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:07.919
It's really very good.

126
00:12:07.980 --> 00:12:09.659
What do you reckon?

127
00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:14.220
I reckon we should watch the thing So the other thing is it's 37 minutes long.

128
00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:20.580
So there's something going wrong at this point in the season, I think. like episodes.

129
00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:29.700
No, it's just not, they don't have the right amount of material, and this episode never coheres around a single thing.

130
00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:37.019
And so it is just incremental advances in various plots, culminating in what is a pretty spectacular cliffhanger though.

131
00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:38.940
Well, I don't I don't think anybody would ever.

132
00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:47.639
I've said to you before about, uh, the sort of the, uh, Kurtzman Trek, and that is like, who's ever going to remember vaulting ambition?

133
00:12:47.700 --> 00:12:52.500
as an individual. because it is just inching pulse along, you know?

134
00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:53.820
Yeah, yeah.

135
00:12:53.879 --> 00:12:55.799
Whereas I think the other 3 are memorable.

136
00:12:55.860 --> 00:12:58.860
Well, we'll remember incidents one, the set pieces.

137
00:12:58.919 --> 00:12:59.879
We'll remember twists.

138
00:12:59.940 --> 00:13:04.440
But do you remember many individual episodes of series one of Discovery?

139
00:13:04.500 --> 00:13:18.299
No, but I mean, I've just watched Severance and I don't remember many individual episodes from that either because that's how TV is now, you know, that TV... of this kind.

140
00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:24.840
I will never forget masks, particularly not when I have lower decks around to remind me of them.

141
00:13:25.259 --> 00:13:26.940
What is it?

142
00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:28.019
Nasaka, is it?

143
00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:28.860
What's he called?

144
00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:32.220
No, I think she was called Mookie or something.

145
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He has salmon jewel.

146
00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:38.519
It's so good So great.

147
00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:39.960
I'd love to get you earlier.

148
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Lower text, dude, never read, whilst it's looking over his shoulder, the ridiculous of 90s tracks.

149
00:13:45.179 --> 00:13:45.960
Exactly.

150
00:13:46.019 --> 00:13:48.120
Or just trek generally, really.

151
00:13:48.179 --> 00:13:50.940
Can I make one very quick point, though, before we go in?

152
00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:53.460
Because I read this on memory alpha.

153
00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:59.759
And this is the 1st point. where the entirety.

154
00:13:59.820 --> 00:14:03.840
I mean, everybody in the writer's room was female.

155
00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:05.820
Oh, wow.

156
00:14:05.820 --> 00:14:07.440
They make a point of pointing that out.

157
00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:17.879
These women all looked at each other in this room and had a moment of this is the 1st time ever where a group of women are determining the future of Star Trek.

158
00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:21.000
That's fantastic. pretty incredible, isn't it?

159
00:14:21.059 --> 00:14:21.539
It's amazing.

160
00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:22.080
Wow.

161
00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:23.940
Shame, the episode is so dreary.

162
00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:25.740
Yeah, it is a bit.

163
00:14:25.740 --> 00:14:35.639
All right, I'm going to keep an eye out on the writing credits and all of those executive producers, I think there's 16 in the opening credits.

164
00:14:35.700 --> 00:14:36.360
We could count.

165
00:14:36.419 --> 00:14:38.879
One as long as Yeste's Enterprise, though, you know.

166
00:14:38.940 --> 00:14:40.320
No, that's true.

167
00:14:40.379 --> 00:14:41.580
All right.

168
00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:50.279
I will count us in five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

169
00:14:50.340 --> 00:14:52.259
Oh, yeah.

170
00:14:52.259 --> 00:14:55.740
And we've got the dot repainting the Enterprise.

171
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He's Tilly in her fabulous Terran Empire outfit.

172
00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:02.039
I was watching the show.

173
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Preparation for this.

174
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I was like, bloody hell, there's a lot going on, isn't there?

175
00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:07.139
People are dying, Cleons having sex.

176
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Like it's all happening.

177
00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:14.460
I really like that because we already know that they can appear as other races.

178
00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:16.620
I mean, that happens in TOS, doesn't it?

179
00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:27.240
But here having it be so visceral, like that it's being tortured, you know, that it's soaring him up and remaking him and it's something's kind of terrifying.

180
00:15:27.299 --> 00:15:30.779
I'm not sure I ever need to certainly not having sex, though, I'm honest.

181
00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:33.120
You could have just told me about that.

182
00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:35.759
Yeah, that's it.

183
00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:37.500
Or not even told you about that.

184
00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:40.980
Like, um, like, the sheer doesn't want to hear about it.

185
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:43.320
Yeah, don't you bow before your emperor?

186
00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:44.039
Emperor.

187
00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:45.299
You bet I do.

188
00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:48.299
We all would, would we?

189
00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:49.080
Yeah.

190
00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:53.220
So do you remember what the Klingons look like in Star Trek Beyond?

191
00:15:54.059 --> 00:15:55.440
No.

192
00:15:55.559 --> 00:16:02.159
They had no hair and they had like different ridgy kind of heads and stuff.

193
00:16:02.220 --> 00:16:09.299
So they don't look like the Discovery Klingons, but both Discovery and Star Trek beyond going the same direction.

194
00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:14.100
And I think the direction is trying to make them not look like members of a heavy metal band.

195
00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:21.000
Well, I remember there was this big hoo-ha about, you know, given the Klingon was a different loop, but 90s trek did that after the original series.

196
00:16:21.299 --> 00:16:27.419
They're just reinterpreting every time, you know, the franchise skips forward 20 years.

197
00:16:27.539 --> 00:16:35.220
Yeah, they look different in the in Star Trek of the motionless picture than they ever look anywhere else.

198
00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:39.179
And if you've got the ability to do more sophisticated makeup.

199
00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:43.559
Well, you're not going to go, well, no, we're going to make it look like those 90s one with a massive hair, you know?

200
00:16:43.620 --> 00:16:44.879
Yeah.

201
00:16:44.940 --> 00:16:46.799
They were too cuddly, I think.

202
00:16:46.860 --> 00:16:56.700
And this is a series where the Klingons are dangerous and really alien and so they need to be much more terrifying. an alien.

203
00:16:56.759 --> 00:16:58.500
I'll say a little bit dull.

204
00:16:58.620 --> 00:16:59.159
Sorry.

205
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:01.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

206
00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:03.539
I mean, they do have very sort of Star Trek moments.

207
00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:11.400
But I do like that very, very 1st big speech of Takuvma's in Discovery, episode one, I think, is pretty great.

208
00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:23.519
Can I ask you, whenever we go to the mirror universe, in whatever iteration of Star Trek, you're watching, everyone's just dressed much more sexier and everyone just looks better in the mirror universe.

209
00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:25.500
Yeah, yeah.

210
00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:26.400
Yeah.

211
00:17:26.460 --> 00:17:28.440
I love this line too.

212
00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:33.779
So this is a talk between, so this is the closest the episode comes to being about something.

213
00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:40.920
So we start the episode with this scene between Michael and Lawker, and the 2 of them are working together.

214
00:17:40.980 --> 00:17:52.799
They're talking about the other Giorgio, the one who's, and we're in, you see him react to the light that came in through the glass, so he reestablish his sensitivity to light.

215
00:17:52.859 --> 00:17:57.779
And then the end of the episode is about his identity.

216
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:03.180
And so the episode is trying to be about something, but it doesn't actually manage it.

217
00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:05.220
It doesn't cohere around any single idea.

218
00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:06.960
But that's an attempt.

219
00:18:07.019 --> 00:18:09.119
They top and tail it with locker scenes.

220
00:18:09.180 --> 00:18:13.319
I just say the special effect shot of the shuttle going into that.

221
00:18:13.500 --> 00:18:17.220
Hugely impressive shit looked amazing.

222
00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:20.160
Yeah, very badly like it leapt out of a cinema.

223
00:18:20.220 --> 00:18:20.940
It looked terrific.

224
00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:27.539
Yeah, well, that that ship looks incredible in the last mirror universe. um episode.

225
00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:28.319
It's so good.

226
00:18:28.740 --> 00:18:33.660
So, cousin Michelle's a special guest star at this point.

227
00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:35.339
Does she remain especially?

228
00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:36.960
Diane Maldar, isn't it?

229
00:18:37.019 --> 00:18:38.220
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

230
00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:40.200
She used to be our special guest star for an entire season.

231
00:18:40.259 --> 00:18:46.680
Well, I guess Michelle Yeoh comes from movies and is sort of slumming it in TV and so...

232
00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:47.759
I know.

233
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:53.339
No, because I think she knew, once she'd got her hands on this character, she's always going to be the best character in the room.

234
00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:54.779
She was always going to get the best lives.

235
00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:55.500
You know?

236
00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:59.940
Do you remember that dinner scene we watched where everyone was getting on?

237
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:01.980
Then she just was like, she was enjoying it.

238
00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:04.200
Yeah, she...

239
00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:06.119
Or staring it off terribly.

240
00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:08.519
She's marvellous.

241
00:19:08.579 --> 00:19:13.140
It's I can't remember what the titles are like now. different from this?

242
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:14.759
Is it different technology?

243
00:19:14.819 --> 00:19:16.859
No, no, it looks the same.

244
00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:20.640
It's the same sort of blueprint thing, but we see different things.

245
00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:25.619
And like we see the DM, the DMA, for instance.

246
00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:26.940
I nearly said DMV.

247
00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:29.400
We see the GMA and the...

248
00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:31.079
When they brought Star Trek back.

249
00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:34.259
Brian Fuller was the person they chose.

250
00:19:34.380 --> 00:19:39.480
Not because he's a terrible writer, but just because he was heavily involved in latter 90s trek.

251
00:19:39.539 --> 00:19:42.960
And you would have thought they would have just gone with a brand new vision.

252
00:19:43.859 --> 00:19:48.059
Do you think in series one of discovery, they just tried to throw everything in?

253
00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:56.640
I feel like, I feel like, you know, it was full of fall to the brim too, you know, too much, too much instant, too many shocks.

254
00:19:57.180 --> 00:19:59.039
Lots happening.

255
00:19:59.220 --> 00:20:00.720
Yeah.

256
00:20:00.779 --> 00:20:17.579
It's the 1st time anything like this has been attempted in Star Trek because even like maybe the beginning of series 6 of Deep Space 9 and maybe series 3 actually of Enterprise is the closest.

257
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:19.019
Is it?

258
00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:19.799
Season long.

259
00:20:19.859 --> 00:20:22.140
Yeah, a season-long thing.

260
00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:24.599
And so here we've got like 15, 16 episodes.

261
00:20:24.660 --> 00:20:29.759
This is longer than the seasons two, three, and four. the longest season.

262
00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:32.460
I don't know.

263
00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:39.359
The idea that there are twists and mysteries, like the vogue twist, the ash is vogue twist.

264
00:20:39.420 --> 00:20:49.440
And remember, you know, like we were looking at the IMDb page to see who was playing Volk and they had, you know, and the opening credits gave a different name.

265
00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:53.160
Um, and I think it was still a sort of Arabic name.

266
00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:55.740
It gave a different name.

267
00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:56.880
Oh, I actually don't know.

268
00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:01.259
I don't know his ethnicity where there is. anyway.

269
00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:12.960
But, you know, like it gave it gave a name and so, but that person had no other credits and people were kind of going, he's Ash, you know, like people were wondering whether Ash was vogue.

270
00:21:13.019 --> 00:21:15.240
And then there was the mystery of lawker, wasn't there?

271
00:21:15.299 --> 00:21:17.640
And I think there was a little bit of that in 90s trade.

272
00:21:17.700 --> 00:21:19.259
Oh, what's up with Eddington?

273
00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:20.759
What's up with Castie Yates?

274
00:21:20.819 --> 00:21:27.119
But not to this extent, because how we look at television now, it's completely, we study it and look for these shots.

275
00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:29.460
But I mean, sort of like as a season.

276
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:43.559
I don't think there's ever going to be another season of Star Trek like this. where narratively it was so different from what came before, you know, they're throwing in new races, tonally, they're, they're putting in sort of explicit sex and swearing.

277
00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:47.819
And violence, really gory in places, even in this episode.

278
00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:50.279
But they retract some of this later on.

279
00:21:50.339 --> 00:21:51.059
It's what they know.

280
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:53.940
It's never quite visceral, I don't think. later on.

281
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:54.599
No.

282
00:21:54.660 --> 00:21:57.180
And so it's kind of unique, isn't it?

283
00:21:57.240 --> 00:21:59.819
It was a period of experimentation.

284
00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:01.019
They don't always go right.

285
00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:02.160
No.

286
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:03.539
Boy, did they try a lot?

287
00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:10.680
Well, one of the ways that I, one of the reasons I think that I reacted so well to it was that it was visually stunning.

288
00:22:10.740 --> 00:22:18.000
Like that 1st episode where Michael goes out onto that Klingon statue beacon thing.

289
00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:24.359
Like it just looked incredible in a way that Star Trek just didn't outside the movies and even movies.

290
00:22:24.420 --> 00:22:35.819
You have somewhat exposed to me as we've done this thing, comparing to the 90s in that they didn't really do weird a lot in 90s, you know, or if they did, it was very lame.

291
00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:40.920
Whereas we just had him there going through some bizarre sort of alien jungle.

292
00:22:40.980 --> 00:22:46.259
Because scenes where he's talking to himself in his head, we never saw anything like that before, did we?

293
00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:48.900
No, and in fact, where we are now.

294
00:22:48.960 --> 00:23:13.019
So this is Mirror, Paul, and our Paul interacting inside the Mycelial Network, which is being cheaply realised in this scene as just... on Port Discovery. you know, in the way that Deep Space 9 did sort of routinely as well, where you would have, you know, people subconscious being represented by the station.

295
00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:15.180
That's right.

296
00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:16.980
Just with a few tentacles coming out of the wall.

297
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:18.180
Exactly.

298
00:23:18.539 --> 00:23:19.920
Yeah.

299
00:23:19.980 --> 00:23:23.640
I think I was reading the fellow that plays Stamitz.

300
00:23:23.700 --> 00:23:31.079
It was his idea to where the Mirror Universe costume and it's originally he was wearing the two, but he's no less differentiating Italy.

301
00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:33.779
So we know who's talking from 12nd to the next.

302
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:36.299
Oh, here we go.

303
00:23:36.900 --> 00:23:40.859
I think the really, really striking thing.

304
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:43.140
This is so simple, is the yellow light.

305
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:45.960
You know, Did you say that?

306
00:23:46.019 --> 00:23:48.059
She was Regina Andor.

307
00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:49.799
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

308
00:23:49.859 --> 00:23:56.640
She's queen of and like all of those major, you know, federation powers, she's in control of all of them.

309
00:23:56.700 --> 00:24:01.319
And we saw that last episode, but this is them meeting properly for the 1st time, isn't it?

310
00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:11.579
It is, and like, compare Michelle Yeo's performance here, who is utterly assured of her position to Tilly, who is in a position of power in the last episode.

311
00:24:11.819 --> 00:24:14.400
And very uncertain of herself.

312
00:24:14.460 --> 00:24:21.539
I don't get for 12nd that Emperor Giorgio doubts her position here and that everybody will bend to her will.

313
00:24:22.019 --> 00:24:31.019
And so we think in this scene that she's being asked to choose a kelpien who will presumably kind of wait on her.

314
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:33.059
Yeah.

315
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:57.960
So I think in the previous episode, and I may be misremembering in one of the 2 previous episodes, we had a scene where she was in the turbo lift with one of her crewmates from the Shenzhou who didn't survive the Battle of the Binary Stars in her universe, but he's still alive in the mirror universe. and she's forced to kill him in order to defend herself.

316
00:24:58.019 --> 00:25:03.059
And it's hugely visceral and really, really visibly upsetting.

317
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:05.400
Oh, there we go. brilliant.

318
00:25:05.460 --> 00:25:06.960
Take that now.

319
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:07.500
Jason.

320
00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:11.220
Your life will be long, Gabriel.

321
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:15.059
I mean, you know, something about it is a back.

322
00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:18.059
Oh, that's so camp, isn't it?

323
00:25:19.619 --> 00:25:24.059
I think you can get one, you know, on lovehoney.com.

324
00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:30.180
But the fact that she's, you know, she's choosing a sleigh is bad enough.

325
00:25:30.180 --> 00:25:33.359
Because you think, oh, she's too, someone to be subservient.

326
00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:36.240
No, it's far darker than that.

327
00:25:36.299 --> 00:25:37.319
Yeah, yeah.

328
00:25:37.380 --> 00:25:54.900
But but just seeing her confronted in this visceral way with these people who are just simply evil, um, you know, and that they were her friends and this was her mentor, you know, her and Philippa really loved one another, I mean, they were.

329
00:25:55.200 --> 00:26:08.579
You know, they were the captain and the 1st officer of the Shanzhou for 7 years or something, you know, all 7 seasons of Star Trek, Shenzhou, you know, they were there together.

330
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:14.940
But you tell me now, how would this relationship play out if we were in 90s track in the very universe?

331
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:16.680
They'd be fucking back.

332
00:26:16.740 --> 00:26:19.259
They would absolutely be lesbian lovers.

333
00:26:19.380 --> 00:26:24.119
And that's what's so great, I think, is too.

334
00:26:24.180 --> 00:26:37.740
That they love one another and giving villains, you know, villains who are just fighting one another all the time, that's kind of boring, but villains that genuinely love one another or that genuinely experience love.

335
00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:41.400
That's really good and that's complex and interesting.

336
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:53.700
It's kind of doing that, Rossy Davis thing that he did in the 2nd series of Dogs Who, where you had Jackie Tarlow from this universe and Pete from that universe and they kind of look, like, fill the gaps in each other's lives.

337
00:26:53.759 --> 00:27:00.960
Well, Georgia here genuinely loved the alternative Burnham, and Burnham there genuinely loved the other Giorgio.

338
00:27:01.019 --> 00:27:12.480
And so it's a really interesting relationship to see play out after this when we go back into because they do fulfil something in each other's lives, even though Georgia can't quite help a bit, total bitch all the time.

339
00:27:12.539 --> 00:27:20.579
Now, you, we are talking over how pretty Ash is when he's lying distressed on that hospital bear.

340
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:22.559
I have to be distressed.

341
00:27:22.980 --> 00:27:27.359
No, but when he's lying back there and he just says, Saru, help me.

342
00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:30.059
And, you know, this incredible violence has been done to him.

343
00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:31.259
Oh, here we are.

344
00:27:31.859 --> 00:27:37.920
But what do you think about this sort of getting us close to these characters and then revealing actually they were this personal along?

345
00:27:37.980 --> 00:27:40.500
Is that cheating the audience?

346
00:27:40.619 --> 00:27:46.740
Uh, no, I think the, I think the, it's a genuine mystery, and Lorke is Lorke.

347
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:48.420
He's just a terrible person.

348
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:49.440
Here we go.

349
00:27:49.500 --> 00:28:01.019
And this is the moment where Michael realises that she's eating the Kelpie she chose and she has to continue doing it after she's discovered it because she can't let on.

350
00:28:01.079 --> 00:28:05.880
This is my favourite thing because she acts...

351
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:07.440
She is visibly distressed.

352
00:28:07.500 --> 00:28:10.380
She's trying to keep a poker face at the same time.

353
00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:17.579
Yeah, and just how nearly impossible that is, because you're eating something and it's super visceral and stuff.

354
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:21.240
You know, you can't just sort of blandly, but she has to.

355
00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:23.279
Very briefly sort of gax.

356
00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:26.640
And then you just hear the loudest swallow I've ever heard.

357
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:30.119
Yeah, so everyone's doing upside down with something.

358
00:28:30.180 --> 00:28:31.740
Awesome.

359
00:28:34.019 --> 00:28:40.079
But this is just a series of dialogue series, isn't it?

360
00:28:40.140 --> 00:28:43.200
Like, and that's unusual for Curs for Trek.

361
00:28:43.259 --> 00:28:48.059
There is usually a bit of pace, you know, and a bit of action.

362
00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:57.119
Yeah, I mean, we get a pretty great scene when Michael gets taken to the throne room to be executed, which I think is pretty good.

363
00:28:57.180 --> 00:29:01.680
And I do think the climax is stunningly great.

364
00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:09.119
I never, it never fails to shock me, the difference in series one to series four.

365
00:29:09.180 --> 00:29:09.900
Yeah.

366
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:11.220
Yeah, yeah.

367
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:12.779
It's almost a little bit...

368
00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:22.380
I mean, she's not terrible here, but there's something a bit more sort of Vulcan and robotic about her, which is almost a bad, isn't it, in that full season, where she's loosened up a little bit.

369
00:29:22.500 --> 00:29:32.819
Well, she's had a year kind of living by herself, you know, between season 2 and 3 and that's when she comes back a little bit more chilled, I think.

370
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:36.240
Yeah, I know they're not going down the lesbian route.

371
00:29:36.299 --> 00:29:44.099
You're talking to me now, there are people out there are going to get excited about this scene where she's holding a knife to her throat, talking very whispering in her ear.

372
00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:51.779
And this, the mother thing, like, we didn't know this, and look at Michael tearing up as well.

373
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:57.359
Now she's being taken out to executed. lighting behind Giorgio there.

374
00:29:57.420 --> 00:29:59.099
All the lights in the space.

375
00:29:59.099 --> 00:30:00.900
The practical lighting is amazing.

376
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:03.839
Yeah, yeah, it's like an interesting looking.

377
00:30:03.900 --> 00:30:06.299
It's like a deep space 9 set in a way, isn't it?

378
00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:11.880
you know where there's lots of odd geometric shapes and interesting practical lighting.

379
00:30:11.940 --> 00:30:14.160
I mean, it's always a feast for the eyes.

380
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:17.880
Yeah, yeah, I just feel like I don't have to watch it anymore.

381
00:30:17.940 --> 00:30:19.380
Like, they're just going to spend, you know?

382
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:21.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

383
00:30:22.380 --> 00:30:25.980
So, oh, yes, and that's the other thing too.

384
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:39.539
You see, I think that we know probably that law cut is from the Mirror Universe, when he tricks, um, Paul into making that final jump.

385
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:42.359
Yeah, which lands them there.

386
00:30:42.420 --> 00:30:43.259
Yeah.

387
00:30:43.319 --> 00:30:45.059
I think we know where we're going as well.

388
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:49.319
I don't think there's any ambiguity about what's happened in that moment.

389
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:51.720
Do they reveal it straight away?

390
00:30:51.779 --> 00:30:52.980
Yeah, this is the very universe.

391
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:55.980
Or just, oh, no, where I remember.

392
00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:56.759
Where are we?

393
00:30:56.819 --> 00:30:57.180
I think.

394
00:30:57.240 --> 00:31:12.119
I think I remember being spoiled when I was scrolling through Twitter in a cab in Bangkok on a holiday because there was no way I could watch it.

395
00:31:12.180 --> 00:31:13.799
There was no way I could watch it.

396
00:31:13.859 --> 00:31:21.059
I was really kind of pissed off and I should have been pissed off with myself because, you know, obviously people were going to talk about it and spoil it.

397
00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:22.200
All right.

398
00:31:22.259 --> 00:31:29.759
So this scene here is so great because this is where Michael just comes out to her, isn't it?

399
00:31:29.819 --> 00:31:32.400
Where Michael just says, actually, we've never met.

400
00:31:32.460 --> 00:31:33.779
Yeah, yeah.

401
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:36.420
And then she's intrigued by it. isn't she?

402
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:38.279
What's this Burnham like?

403
00:31:38.460 --> 00:31:47.339
But she, she knows about the mirror universe, but like from our point of view, no, from their point of view, we're the mirror universe.

404
00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:47.819
How about that?

405
00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:51.599
So she knows about the mirror universe and our universe.

406
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:54.420
And so she doesn't want it to get out.

407
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:58.740
Is that why she kills everyone or it's just because it's an incredible, fabulous set piece?

408
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:02.279
I mean, I want to say one.

409
00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:03.240
I believe the latter.

410
00:32:03.299 --> 00:32:04.380
Yeah, yeah.

411
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:07.440
You know, we said about the female, right?

412
00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:07.980
Okay, true.

413
00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:08.940
So wait a second.

414
00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:11.339
This is Lord Ealing.

415
00:32:11.640 --> 00:32:25.559
And so in the Terran Federation Mirror Universe, Ealing, the London Borough of Ealing, is an important centre of power, and he's the lord of it.

416
00:32:25.619 --> 00:32:26.579
So how about that?

417
00:32:26.700 --> 00:32:27.839
E League in London.

418
00:32:28.140 --> 00:32:30.180
I've just decided that.

419
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:31.319
That's canon.

420
00:32:31.380 --> 00:32:40.440
But he is literally Lord Ealing, and he does, he's the only one who survives this scene because he's going to kill them all in a sec.

421
00:32:40.500 --> 00:32:46.799
It is worth pointing out that we have 2 incredible women spearheading these days.

422
00:32:47.339 --> 00:32:49.740
Coming from a female, right?

423
00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:51.839
I mean, things have just changed so much, aren't they?

424
00:32:51.900 --> 00:32:52.799
Look at this.

425
00:32:52.859 --> 00:32:53.640
Look at this.

426
00:32:53.700 --> 00:33:01.500
It slows down so we can watch this thing go through all of their heads and like all of this sort of cartoon blood.

427
00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:03.660
Lord Ealing who is so gay.

428
00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:05.160
Take a look at him.

429
00:33:05.220 --> 00:33:09.480
He's so cute, but clearly very gay indeed.

430
00:33:09.539 --> 00:33:10.980
In his gold armour.

431
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:13.200
Oh, he's gorgeous.

432
00:33:13.259 --> 00:33:15.480
Hold on one of those flying discs.

433
00:33:15.539 --> 00:33:17.039
I think they were coming quite happy.

434
00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:18.299
So good.

435
00:33:18.359 --> 00:33:19.559
So good.

436
00:33:19.619 --> 00:33:21.779
So she's just killed everyone except Lord Ealing.

437
00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:27.960
And Lord Ealing, she said, I'll give you, I don't know, I'll give you Chiswick or something with you as well.

438
00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:30.599
If you clean all this shit up.

439
00:33:30.660 --> 00:33:33.900
So presumably he's off to get a mop and bucket or something.

440
00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:37.140
I've got to throw all the brains off the floor.

441
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:38.759
What's going on here?

442
00:33:38.880 --> 00:34:00.299
So this is Lorell, who is the person who turned Voke into ash, and we see Lorell and Voke interacting in the early episodes of this season, and they've captured her and she's now our consulting psychopath in the in the bridge.

443
00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:04.019
So Saru is appealing to her to help Vogue.

444
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:05.160
Do you know what?

445
00:34:05.220 --> 00:34:09.119
I feel like she's probably giving an amazing and committed performance.

446
00:34:09.179 --> 00:34:11.699
I could really care less about those scenes, you know?

447
00:34:11.820 --> 00:34:16.860
Yeah, I think that some of those scenes early on drag.

448
00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:18.480
I think she's really good though.

449
00:34:18.900 --> 00:34:21.539
Does she get a bigger role on Twitter?

450
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:22.139
Go forward.

451
00:34:22.139 --> 00:34:25.739
She does, she does, she continues to be in it.

452
00:34:25.800 --> 00:34:26.940
They end up together, don't they?

453
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:30.960
Yeah, yeah, I think so.

454
00:34:31.019 --> 00:34:31.619
Yeah.

455
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:32.400
Yeah.

456
00:34:32.460 --> 00:34:34.260
The Mayo is extraordinary.

457
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:36.059
Yeah, isn't it?

458
00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:37.739
She's been burned, obviously.

459
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:45.960
But we see all of those scenes, which, you know, leave Ash as someone who is having sort of flashbacks to being tortured.

460
00:34:46.019 --> 00:34:53.099
And what's been happening is he's been literally sort of sawn up and put together in these sort of really brutal ways.

461
00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:58.800
And so it's not just sort of sticking some latex ears on and heading down off to Romulus or whatever.

462
00:34:58.860 --> 00:35:01.380
Interesting to hear you mentioned the word latex, you know.

463
00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:04.019
I do think there is something a little bit latexy about Saru.

464
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:06.960
And that bizarre mouth he's got.

465
00:35:07.019 --> 00:35:11.039
Yeah, I really, I think it works really well, doesn't it?

466
00:35:11.099 --> 00:35:13.019
No, it was...

467
00:35:13.019 --> 00:35:15.960
Doc Jones is the best... is an incredible actor.

468
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:17.820
He involved in this show, you know, like...

469
00:35:17.820 --> 00:35:20.099
Yeah, he's unbelievable guy.

470
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:22.739
Man, have you seen him doing the social media side of it?

471
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:24.360
He sells this show.

472
00:35:24.420 --> 00:35:25.679
I'm telling you. amazing.

473
00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:29.039
Just before he was about to start the new series.

474
00:35:29.099 --> 00:35:32.280
He'd had all his air shaved off and he took a picture on Instagram.

475
00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:33.360
I'm like, right, I'm ready.

476
00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:34.440
I'm ready to go.

477
00:35:34.500 --> 00:35:36.059
Stick the thing on.

478
00:35:36.900 --> 00:35:39.000
I mean, bless us.

479
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:42.239
Oh, this is probably their show you'll be most known for, looking like that.

480
00:35:42.300 --> 00:35:45.420
Yeah, well, I mean, he's done other things.

481
00:35:45.539 --> 00:35:47.280
He did play the fish in shape of water.

482
00:35:47.340 --> 00:35:48.719
Oh okay.

483
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:55.199
He's the lead gentleman in harsh in Buffy.

484
00:35:55.260 --> 00:36:00.420
I think he's probably the most consistently good character in this show, like.

485
00:36:00.539 --> 00:36:03.059
Yeah, and there's a true lily.

486
00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:06.239
Despite the fact, whether he's, what is he at this point?

487
00:36:06.300 --> 00:36:06.900
Science officer.

488
00:36:07.139 --> 00:36:08.699
Yeah, yeah.

489
00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:09.840
And then he's captain.

490
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:17.280
And then he becomes captain and then he's just sort of Mr. Saru, who's sort of sort of consulting captain when Michael becomes the actual captain.

491
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:21.480
And like Michael's character has to be sort of substantially retooled between series 2 and three.

492
00:36:21.539 --> 00:36:23.219
I think a lot of them are, you know.

493
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:25.800
Alexis as well as we go along.

494
00:36:25.860 --> 00:36:27.960
Yeah, a lot of his sort of rough edges are softened up.

495
00:36:28.019 --> 00:36:29.880
But through, I think, comes pretty well formed.

496
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:31.380
Yeah.

497
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:33.360
And he's a pretty incredible captain.

498
00:36:33.420 --> 00:36:36.960
Like that 3rd season where he's captain of the ship.

499
00:36:37.019 --> 00:36:38.219
He's so good.

500
00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:39.420
He's so good in it.

501
00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:42.719
But I think Stamets was initially...

502
00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:47.699
I found, I was quite resistant to how, well, how much of an arsehole he was.

503
00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:54.059
But you fast forward to that episode we watched in series 4 where they're having that dialogue about the ship's computer.

504
00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:58.920
I think by that point they're right into his strengths and then some.

505
00:36:58.980 --> 00:36:59.460
Yeah.

506
00:36:59.460 --> 00:37:00.360
Yeah.

507
00:37:00.420 --> 00:37:01.679
Oh, this seems lovely.

508
00:37:01.739 --> 00:37:03.119
I really like this thing.

509
00:37:03.179 --> 00:37:05.400
Well, then when he says he had somewhat favourite moment of the day.

510
00:37:05.460 --> 00:37:10.019
He's not talking about them brushing their teeth to get really. talking about them discussing their dates.

511
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:12.480
He talks about the morning.

512
00:37:12.539 --> 00:37:13.260
Do you know what I mean?

513
00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:19.920
Like the morning where they get up and just hang around and brush their teeth and get ready for the day and that's what he likes.

514
00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:22.860
And it only gets mentioned because we see it before.

515
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:41.940
And there is a scene earlier on where Paul is brushing his teeth and then he turns away from the mirror, but his reflection doesn't turn away and it's something to do with the effects of time, you know, because he's doing this, but it also kind of hints at the mirror universe being a thing too.

516
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:45.900
Those 2 characters, Colbert, Stomach.

517
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:47.159
They're both introduced.

518
00:37:47.219 --> 00:37:49.800
But not as a couple, are they?

519
00:37:49.860 --> 00:37:52.440
And then it just becomes apparent that they're a couple.

520
00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:53.460
They're a couple.

521
00:37:53.460 --> 00:37:56.039
Don't they have a moment professionally where there are odds?

522
00:37:56.159 --> 00:37:59.099
And then I think that's how they do it.

523
00:37:59.099 --> 00:38:03.300
And then they have a room seated their quarters together where you realise they're a couple.

524
00:38:03.420 --> 00:38:04.500
They're a couple.

525
00:38:04.500 --> 00:38:05.340
That's really nice.

526
00:38:06.179 --> 00:38:09.599
It's so, you know, goodness me.

527
00:38:09.659 --> 00:38:18.239
Like we've, I've been pretty negative about the outcast in Star Trek the Next Generation and...

528
00:38:18.300 --> 00:38:19.320
Yeah, yeah.

529
00:38:19.380 --> 00:38:21.659
And we were critical of stigma.

530
00:38:21.780 --> 00:38:24.539
And, you know, stuff like that.

531
00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:26.639
I forgot about that already.

532
00:38:26.820 --> 00:38:35.760
But it's so nice to just be seen in a show and not be an issue to be dealt with by the show.

533
00:38:35.820 --> 00:38:38.639
Well, that's the point we're making as well because in 90s straight.

534
00:38:38.699 --> 00:38:42.059
You kind of had to be an evil alternative lesbian, didn't you?

535
00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:43.079
Yeah, yeah.

536
00:38:43.139 --> 00:38:43.980
Yeah, that's right.

537
00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:48.840
Or if they were going to do an episode like rejoined. then it was a massive taboo.

538
00:38:48.900 --> 00:38:53.400
I know it wasn't about same-sex couples, but that was the point they were making, you know?

539
00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:56.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

540
00:38:56.099 --> 00:39:10.199
And, you know, like having 2 very beautiful women kiss on television is possibly the least daring way that you can get some same-sex action happening on a show.

541
00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:14.460
But that does show how far we come because now you could do that and there would be no response.

542
00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:17.219
There were channels refusing to show rejoin.

543
00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:19.559
When it airs far out.

544
00:39:19.619 --> 00:39:20.579
Yeah, yeah.

545
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:23.820
And even that was so tame, so timid.

546
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:25.679
Um, yeah.

547
00:39:25.739 --> 00:39:27.659
I will have to close the set off and everything.

548
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:30.900
Yeah, it was a big deal.

549
00:39:31.619 --> 00:39:38.940
So we have, we, things have moved on and for the best time, you know, and representation now is in Star Trek.

550
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:41.039
I can't believe people object to it.

551
00:39:41.340 --> 00:39:44.099
Oh, yeah, but I mean, that's happening everywhere.

552
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:52.380
There's a big shit fight on Twitter at the moment because the new teaser for the little mermaid came out and she's black.

553
00:39:53.099 --> 00:39:54.719
I know.

554
00:39:54.780 --> 00:39:56.280
What about her voice?

555
00:39:56.340 --> 00:39:56.820
Holy crap.

556
00:39:56.880 --> 00:39:57.360
Did you see?

557
00:39:57.360 --> 00:39:57.840
There was what?

558
00:39:57.840 --> 00:39:58.739
I know snow last night.

559
00:39:58.800 --> 00:39:59.760
You see the little gal?

560
00:39:59.820 --> 00:40:03.659
Uh, who...

561
00:40:03.659 --> 00:40:05.340
Yeah, it was somewhat of the same colour.

562
00:40:05.340 --> 00:40:09.000
And she was so excited. gorgeous.

563
00:40:09.059 --> 00:40:18.239
Well, it's the story that Whoopi Goldberg tells, you know, you know, running in out of the room and telling your mother that there's a black woman on TV.

564
00:40:18.360 --> 00:40:21.239
And she ain't no maid. exactly.

565
00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:26.579
But we just had a scene with 2 women of colour speaking.

566
00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:31.199
You know, like a scene that passes the Bechdel Testin has no white people in it.

567
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:37.320
And, you know, like that's just what Star Trek does now and what it should have been doing in the 90s.

568
00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:39.360
Look how gross and terrifying that is.

569
00:40:39.900 --> 00:40:41.579
Yeah, yeah.

570
00:40:41.639 --> 00:40:43.139
Like really visceral.

571
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:44.460
Like...

572
00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:48.360
It's almost a shame, you know. like that they did step back a little bit, isn't it?

573
00:40:48.420 --> 00:40:48.900
Yeah.

574
00:40:48.900 --> 00:40:55.980
Like, if you're not using it, in series too, suddenly, it's all about a big, you know, space anomaly or someone from the huge shells, where like, hey, you know.

575
00:40:56.039 --> 00:41:02.099
And all this sort of nastiness and earthiness is made a little safer.

576
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:03.659
Yeah.

577
00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:05.639
But I suppose that's what you do, isn't it?

578
00:41:05.699 --> 00:41:07.320
That's what you do when you come back as you test them.

579
00:41:07.380 --> 00:41:08.280
We recalibrate.

580
00:41:08.340 --> 00:41:08.699
Yeah.

581
00:41:08.820 --> 00:41:11.639
You have characters say the word fuck, you know?

582
00:41:11.699 --> 00:41:12.539
Yeah.

583
00:41:12.599 --> 00:41:15.480
So this handsome man here.

584
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:19.920
Which one they're both free handsome?

585
00:41:19.980 --> 00:41:38.039
Oh, they are, but the handsome Terran guy who was clearly known to Captain Locker before, and this is really terrifically good, and this is the scene that will eventually turn into the big climactic scene at the end of the...

586
00:41:38.099 --> 00:41:39.119
Did nor could kill his sister?

587
00:41:39.179 --> 00:41:39.539
Is that right?

588
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:42.360
No, he fucked his sister.

589
00:41:42.420 --> 00:41:43.739
I think.

590
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:45.000
But I don't know.

591
00:41:45.059 --> 00:41:46.260
It's not entirely clear.

592
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:56.099
Because what he says when he comes out of the agoniser, he says, yes, you know, I, because he's saying, say her name, say her name and Gabriel's refusing to do it as if he'd forgotten.

593
00:41:56.159 --> 00:42:02.099
And then he comes out of a thing and says her name was Ava, but someone better came along or something.

594
00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:03.239
It's so good.

595
00:42:03.300 --> 00:42:05.820
And so he may have let her die.

596
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:17.820
So this, this, I think, is where we know for certain that he's from the mirror universe, because this is someone from here, who was a crew member, whom he recognises.

597
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:22.619
He recognises the other guy, the handsome black guy there.

598
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:25.500
Yeah, there were so many women.

599
00:42:25.739 --> 00:42:28.199
It's good to be captain.

600
00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:31.920
See, it's definitely him.

601
00:42:31.980 --> 00:42:34.679
I love how they kill this guy too.

602
00:42:34.739 --> 00:42:36.599
This is super gory as well.

603
00:42:38.099 --> 00:42:45.659
But, you know, we had people, we had Tori from Battlesore, like Galactica being ripped up by the Tardigrade earlier in the season.

604
00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:46.679
She deserves it.

605
00:42:46.739 --> 00:42:47.940
So she did.

606
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:48.659
She was horrible.

607
00:42:48.780 --> 00:42:50.579
Watch this guy scream and then explode.

608
00:42:50.940 --> 00:42:54.900
Burn, scream. and then burn everywhere.

609
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:56.760
Yeah, I'm not even sure they do that.

610
00:42:57.059 --> 00:42:59.159
No, I don't think they would.

611
00:43:00.539 --> 00:43:03.719
It is all a bit sombre though this, isn't it?

612
00:43:03.780 --> 00:43:07.019
It's all a bit hour and talky.

613
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:13.679
And I remember at this point in the episode, I was like, is this ever, is this going to start picking up soon, like?

614
00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:25.800
Well, it's, in fact, the only really fun silly bits are in the Paul plot, and that's the plot where, which has him really properly realising that his husband's dead.

615
00:43:25.860 --> 00:43:28.500
You know, like it's still not that much fun.

616
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:39.659
Oh, I love how he speaks in Cleon here, and he's using his voc voice because he's got a higher, more tanner voice when he's vogue, and he starts using that when he speaks to Michael after he's activated.

617
00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:41.280
I have a relationship episode.

618
00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:43.260
Yeah.

619
00:43:43.260 --> 00:43:43.980
The pair of them.

620
00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:49.320
But obviously they just decided in the show, well, we don't, this isn't where we wanted to go with these two.

621
00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:53.820
With um, with Morrell and...

622
00:43:53.820 --> 00:43:55.260
Oh, no, no, Michael's...

623
00:43:55.320 --> 00:44:03.539
Yeah, no, Michael has a real hard time coming to terms with him and accepting him after it's revealed who he is.

624
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:05.820
That's how weepy season, isn't it?

625
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:06.599
She has a lot.

626
00:44:06.599 --> 00:44:07.199
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

627
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:12.119
A lot of times, yeah, terms with Spock and their relationship and a lot of things in that season.

628
00:44:12.179 --> 00:44:14.039
Mother, isn't it as well?

629
00:44:14.099 --> 00:44:16.559
Mother's back, yeah, who was...

630
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:20.699
No, I know we said yes, but series 2 of Discovery is someone else.

631
00:44:20.820 --> 00:44:23.579
Remember, she was sort of tortured and then killed.

632
00:44:23.639 --> 00:44:25.619
Oh, that's awful.

633
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:29.280
Tortured and killed by the Klingons, you know, and then it turns out it wasn't that.

634
00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:36.960
I mean, at least like they, they, they kill our couple, but at least they are giving it a little bit of emotion, you know, and consequence.

635
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:38.699
Yeah.

636
00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:40.500
It could have just been a cheap shock.

637
00:44:40.920 --> 00:44:44.820
And so is it, I can't even remember what the deal is.

638
00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:48.179
Look, I think it was a bit of a cheap shock, but they did pay it.

639
00:44:48.239 --> 00:44:49.920
Yeah, they do pay it.

640
00:44:49.980 --> 00:44:54.480
They still have him do, you know, this episode at least.

641
00:44:54.539 --> 00:44:58.920
And, and Kulba's not here or easy.

642
00:44:58.980 --> 00:45:05.460
He is in the mycelial network in a sense because Paul remembers him or something.

643
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:11.219
And then he's brought back. it takes a long time.

644
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:15.780
And that's why I kind of think that series 2 is kind of like the apology tour for series one.

645
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:18.599
I think some of the choices they made in series one.

646
00:45:18.780 --> 00:45:20.460
They shouldn't have walked back on.

647
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:21.780
Oh, okay.

648
00:45:21.780 --> 00:45:25.320
But like the swearing, I want them saying fuck on.

649
00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:27.239
I just want that.

650
00:45:27.300 --> 00:45:29.460
No, I think this was definitely.

651
00:45:29.579 --> 00:45:30.719
But this was a bad mistake.

652
00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:32.219
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

653
00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:33.300
And they walk it back.

654
00:45:33.420 --> 00:45:38.280
I was just watching them then, how the looks they were giving each other how they were of each other.

655
00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:41.280
It's very natural, isn't it?

656
00:45:41.340 --> 00:45:44.400
It doesn't feel like 2 actors have just come together, you know, this season.

657
00:45:44.820 --> 00:45:50.880
I think they may have known one another before this where they both in rent or something?

658
00:45:50.940 --> 00:45:51.719
Like, I'm not sure.

659
00:45:51.780 --> 00:45:52.679
I'm not sure.

660
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:54.780
Both on Grindr.

661
00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:56.940
I don't know.

662
00:45:57.000 --> 00:45:57.840
Yeah, that's right.

663
00:45:57.900 --> 00:46:01.500
But both actors are gay as well, which I think is a good thing to do too.

664
00:46:01.860 --> 00:46:07.320
Do you agree with the Rusty Davies assertion that only gay actors should play gay characters?

665
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:23.940
No, but I can understand why you would choose uh, for something important to, you, you might choose to only hire gay people to play gay actors, to play gay people.

666
00:46:24.059 --> 00:46:37.139
And I also think that, you know, like if gay characters are being written, and if gay actors have difficulty getting cast, then I think that it's wrong to give those roles to straight people, I think, you know.

667
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:38.579
But I don't think it's a problem.

668
00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:44.099
I've seen fantastic performances by straight men playing gay characters.

669
00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:52.679
Even in Love Victor, for instance, a couple of the boys who are gay in that, I think, are very good, despite the fact they're straight, and I don't think that's a problem.

670
00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:55.980
Conversely, I've seen gay actors give incredible performances.

671
00:46:56.039 --> 00:46:58.019
They're straight characters, such as Russell Poley.

672
00:46:58.019 --> 00:46:59.760
Yeah.

673
00:46:59.940 --> 00:47:04.139
So they kiss there and now this plot is over with?

674
00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:04.619
Is that right?

675
00:47:05.159 --> 00:47:20.219
So now, yeah, but so this, though, is on the current, this is, so, yeah, that's that plot over with, but he will obviously be back, I think, till he's still back.

676
00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:23.159
Okay, automatically about hairs, hairs straight.

677
00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:26.099
Let's have a scene with your show.

678
00:47:26.099 --> 00:47:28.500
In the very universe. can't remember.

679
00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:30.119
I don't so that would be amazing.

680
00:47:31.380 --> 00:47:34.199
Man, man, the actress who makes silly.

681
00:47:34.260 --> 00:47:36.000
She just owns herself, didn't she?

682
00:47:36.059 --> 00:47:37.199
She's incredible.

683
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:37.800
So good.

684
00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:40.320
Yeah, she really is great.

685
00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:41.460
Oh, look at this, though.

686
00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:42.599
Like the forest has gone big.

687
00:47:42.659 --> 00:47:42.960
Yeah.

688
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:44.340
Is that the mice?

689
00:47:44.340 --> 00:47:45.300
I saw that before.

690
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:55.860
Well, no, that's their spore supplies, but they've obviously been affected by the mycelial network by that red thing that we saw creeping through the corridors. stuff like it's real, you know.

691
00:47:56.400 --> 00:48:00.119
Well, that's the other thing too, that he's just mental.

692
00:48:00.179 --> 00:48:03.900
Like the mycelial network is such a strange thing.

693
00:48:03.960 --> 00:48:12.300
And, you know, there were people kind of losing their shit about it at the time because it was so unscientific in a way that they sort of somehow felt warp drive, wasn't it?

694
00:48:12.360 --> 00:48:14.639
And beaming technology.

695
00:48:14.699 --> 00:48:16.500
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

696
00:48:16.619 --> 00:48:18.420
That's true, but I'm sorry.

697
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:26.400
There is this bizarre thing in any science fiction franchise where one magical science fiction concept is more plausible than another.

698
00:48:28.500 --> 00:48:29.280
The moon's an egg.

699
00:48:29.340 --> 00:48:31.559
I can accept a time travelling phone box.

700
00:48:31.619 --> 00:48:33.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

701
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:36.840
Well, I mean, this, you know, it's a subspace realm full of mushrooms.

702
00:48:36.900 --> 00:48:37.739
I don't know.

703
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:46.139
I feel the need to point out there are only 4 minutes left to go and we are in no way approaching a climax this episode.

704
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:54.480
Oh, no, I think, well, so they engineer a climax out of this, the interchange between Gabriel and that other guy.

705
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:57.780
And I think it ends in a pretty interesting way.

706
00:48:57.900 --> 00:49:01.860
But yes, like we said at the start. doesn't really go anywhere.

707
00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:09.300
Some people have had the same issue with Picard series 2, that sort of in the 2nd half of the season.

708
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:15.360
There was just a lot of inching along of plots and nothing really being resolved.

709
00:49:15.719 --> 00:49:20.340
Yeah, I suppose it's what approach you prefer, maybe, isn't it?

710
00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:31.139
Well, I think that good serialisation is what Discovery Series 4 does at the end, where each episode follows logically from the previous one, but each has its own identity and its own art.

711
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:32.760
Oh, I think something's achieved.

712
00:49:32.820 --> 00:49:35.940
Yeah, I think last idea is not that really well as well.

713
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:39.179
Yeah, yeah, but it's the beginning of series 6 sort of thing.

714
00:49:39.239 --> 00:49:40.619
You go for place to place.

715
00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:45.179
Even in that last 10 episode arc of DS9, I think that some of that...

716
00:49:45.179 --> 00:50:02.280
It is literally just moving from A to B. So this is Michael discovering that Gabriel is from the Mirror Universe, because everyone in the Mirror Universe reacts to light the way that Gabriel does and Gabriel had said that it was because of something that happened to him on the Buran.

717
00:50:02.340 --> 00:50:14.639
And so now he's pulling some crap in order to get himself out of the agoniser booth and now we're interacting between those 2 scenes and Michael's discovery that Gabriel is from the mirror universe.

718
00:50:14.699 --> 00:50:17.159
I mean, I think at this point...

719
00:50:17.219 --> 00:50:18.059
Look at this, look at this.

720
00:50:18.119 --> 00:50:26.460
And then he just, he, uh, one of those things, he defibrillates the guy's head and like, it's...

721
00:50:26.519 --> 00:50:27.059
Yeah.

722
00:50:27.059 --> 00:50:33.780
Although I was from thinking, you know, keep up burning.

723
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:34.679
It a bit obvious.

724
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:35.820
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

725
00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:40.019
But that's, you know, the, oh, and this, Ava, this is so good.

726
00:50:40.019 --> 00:50:42.059
And look at him twitching it so gross.

727
00:50:42.119 --> 00:50:44.579
And then the very final shot.

728
00:50:44.699 --> 00:50:47.340
He's so, like, really bad.

729
00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:48.360
Look at this.

730
00:50:48.360 --> 00:50:48.780
Look at this.

731
00:50:49.380 --> 00:50:54.960
He just smashes the guy's head like he literally just like stamps his head.

732
00:50:55.079 --> 00:50:57.480
I think there's no feedback on the ground.

733
00:50:57.539 --> 00:51:00.000
Like law car is now going to exit the series.

734
00:51:00.059 --> 00:51:01.920
How can we redeem him?

735
00:51:01.980 --> 00:51:03.360
No.

736
00:51:03.420 --> 00:51:06.000
There's Lord Ealing in the credits there.

737
00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:07.920
Yeah, yeah.

738
00:51:07.980 --> 00:51:08.940
You think, you know what?

739
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:11.159
There were there were fun individual moments in that.

740
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:15.059
Yeah, but...

741
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:16.260
Yeah.

742
00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:23.699
And, you know, like we rolled, this would, I think, have to be the weakest episode of the season, probably.

743
00:51:23.940 --> 00:51:28.500
Yeah, I still think that's the phenomena, you know, and I know you, Megan, disagree on.

744
00:51:28.559 --> 00:51:29.940
I think the finale is good.

745
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:33.420
I think the finale is properly good and it does something and goes somewhere.

746
00:51:33.480 --> 00:51:36.239
It's an episode about something where this one isn't.

747
00:51:36.360 --> 00:51:38.400
We've had this discussion, haven't we?

748
00:51:38.460 --> 00:51:44.820
Where, you know, you're all for, you know, going for the ethics of the federation, whereas I'm all for abandoning them and doing terrible things.

749
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:47.159
They should have bombed that Klingon home world, I'm telling you.

750
00:51:47.219 --> 00:51:58.320
No, but I mean, but it's the political message, you know, it's the political thing that it's saying, you know, that we need to be sticking to our values.

751
00:51:58.380 --> 00:52:08.579
We need to be doing the right thing and that the right thing is love and inclusion and diversity and honour and, you know, and it gets cheesy, that final.

752
00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:10.679
So it is a little bit overall.

753
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:13.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

754
00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:17.519
But, like, they've earned it, I think, by that point.

755
00:52:17.579 --> 00:52:19.980
And a lot of people were wondering.

756
00:52:20.099 --> 00:52:21.239
I think the audio's at large.

757
00:52:21.300 --> 00:52:23.639
They needed to hear that at the end of this season.

758
00:52:23.699 --> 00:52:26.340
There was to be some very strange things with Starfre.

759
00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:27.960
That's right Yeah, yeah.

760
00:52:28.019 --> 00:52:33.780
And people were saying it's not like Star Trek it doesn't adhere to the ideals and, you know, that was essentially the point.

761
00:52:33.840 --> 00:52:35.639
People still say that, you know.

762
00:52:35.699 --> 00:52:39.599
Even after series 2 with the Enterprise of Pike and Spock.

763
00:52:39.659 --> 00:52:40.739
And all of that.

764
00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:50.159
I think that Kurtzman Trek doesn't want to do what 90s Trek does, which is in places.

765
00:52:50.219 --> 00:53:03.420
It just says Star Trek ideals are naive and that they don't survive contact with real proper evil or real proper peril.

766
00:53:03.480 --> 00:53:07.440
And that's what those deep space. 9 episodes do.

767
00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:12.900
I think they always return to it, but I think it's examined and sometimes they say, do you know what?

768
00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:15.840
We've got to make the wrong call to get this done.

769
00:53:15.900 --> 00:53:17.400
And I know you don't agree with that.

770
00:53:17.460 --> 00:53:18.300
I love it.

771
00:53:18.300 --> 00:53:20.820
No, because. the situations are made up.

772
00:53:20.880 --> 00:53:25.079
They, you know, they don't have to make them be in a situation where they have to make that call.

773
00:53:25.139 --> 00:53:30.000
Yeah, so you decide not to put them in the situation where they don't have to make the call.

774
00:53:30.059 --> 00:53:37.980
Or you say, look, yes, we're going to adhere to these ideals because they're important, but they're going to be costly tours for some reason.

775
00:53:38.039 --> 00:53:39.179
And that's an interesting thing to say.

776
00:53:39.239 --> 00:54:00.360
I prefer it when they say that these ideals actually can be a little bit dangerous. liking something like Valiant, where you have those horrible kids that think they're the best and the best, and think they can do anything, and then they come up against something that they literally cannot defeat, and they all end up dead, and I, it's dark as hell.

777
00:54:00.420 --> 00:54:03.780
But I think actually, yeah, that's an interesting point to make.

778
00:54:03.840 --> 00:54:22.079
Yeah, but I always wonder whether the valiant so much about Starfleet ideals as it is about critiquing just that ridiculous thing that happens on Star Trek all the time where everyone says that their crew is the best in the league. you know, like every bloody ship, the Cerritos, you know, is the best of the Kelly class tubes.

779
00:54:22.139 --> 00:54:25.440
You know, they're all kind of like that and that's what that's making fun of.

780
00:54:25.500 --> 00:54:27.539
Well, you know, the only...

781
00:54:27.599 --> 00:54:32.760
They can have their cake and eat it because eventually they'll go back to their regular university. they take Giorgio with them.

782
00:54:32.820 --> 00:54:38.880
She's saying, right, do all these terrible things that we do in the Middle Universe. you know, that'll get you out of this situation and they reject that.

783
00:54:38.940 --> 00:54:43.260
But actually, we've just had 4 episodes in the mirror universe where we can just...

784
00:54:43.260 --> 00:54:47.760
We've got to enjoy all the walls and stay, fuck the ethics and let's have fun.

785
00:54:48.059 --> 00:55:02.400
Because the interesting thing is that the real pleasure of the Mirror Universe, particularly in Deep Sace 9, is just getting our regular actors to do something fun to let their hair down and have fun and be silly and do silly things.

786
00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:06.300
But that's actually not really that much of a feature of this.

787
00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:08.639
This, you know, Giorgio's dead.

788
00:55:08.699 --> 00:55:12.599
Yeah, given similar-ish performance is, oh, man.

789
00:55:12.659 --> 00:55:19.380
Yeah, but most of the people here are our crew, like the whole discovery is in this universe.

790
00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:30.300
It's not like mirror, mirror, where some people from the transporter pad end up in basically a mirror universe version of the enterprise, the entire ships here, most of our crew are all here.

791
00:55:30.360 --> 00:55:35.039
And so most of the people that we see, it's just Laura and Giorgio, isn't it?

792
00:55:35.099 --> 00:55:37.079
and Stammets and that's about it.

793
00:55:37.139 --> 00:55:41.219
And, you know, Lorke has been a mirror universe version of himself all along.

794
00:55:41.340 --> 00:55:43.860
Oh, yeah, yeah.

795
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:48.360
Like, I really, really like this 1st season of Discovery a lot.

796
00:55:48.420 --> 00:56:00.059
And I think maybe series 4 is better, but I think what's fun about this season is just seeing where they didn't go, seeing some things that Star Trek seems unlikely to try again.

797
00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:00.960
Yeah.

798
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:04.980
I, I, I, I don't really like it very much.

799
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:07.860
But I do think it's bold.

800
00:56:07.920 --> 00:56:12.300
And I like the fact that it's doing stuff that they don't do anywhere else.

801
00:56:12.420 --> 00:56:19.440
It has its unique identity. and it's worth watching for that alone, I think.

802
00:56:19.500 --> 00:56:20.940
And actually, I think you're right.

803
00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:22.019
I think in the 2nd series.

804
00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:27.179
It's a little less interesting because it's a little safer.

805
00:56:27.239 --> 00:56:28.619
Yeah.

806
00:56:28.679 --> 00:56:33.780
Well, I also think this one is very political in a way that series 2 walks back.

807
00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:42.239
And then series 3 just kind of wholeheartedly goes, yes, you know, this is a post-federation world where we've got to teach people about the federation.

808
00:56:42.300 --> 00:56:48.179
It's all about federation ethics, but in series one is about that, but in a much more interesting way.

809
00:56:48.239 --> 00:56:50.460
I think, and it does say things.

810
00:56:50.519 --> 00:56:52.380
As I said, at the end of last week's episode.

811
00:56:52.440 --> 00:56:57.360
It's about, you know, America being at war for 20 years after 9-11.

812
00:56:57.719 --> 00:57:04.440
And what do we turn into what happens when we kind of abandon our liberal or democratic ideas?

813
00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:10.860
And so you get this sort of crazed hallucinatory Trump world, Mirror Universe, America.

814
00:57:10.920 --> 00:57:12.539
And that's what this is about.

815
00:57:12.599 --> 00:57:17.820
Oh, the scary thing is, is we go to this mirror universe, which is Trump World, and that's where we were heading.

816
00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:20.159
It's absolutely fucking terrifying.

817
00:57:26.219 --> 00:57:32.219
All right, it's the end of the episode and so we are here to choose what we're going to be watching next week.

818
00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:40.320
It was my go last week, which means it's your go now, Joe. So what series are we choosing from?

819
00:57:40.380 --> 00:57:45.239
Before I press the button, do you realise how many separate tabs there are here?

820
00:57:45.300 --> 00:57:46.980
To choose from?

821
00:57:47.039 --> 00:57:50.219
Is there 12, 13, 13?

822
00:57:51.000 --> 00:57:54.239
13 arms of the Star Trek.

823
00:57:54.300 --> 00:57:56.519
And because I'm feeling lazy.

824
00:57:56.579 --> 00:57:57.719
I'm gonna include them all.

825
00:57:57.780 --> 00:58:04.199
You know, I actually had to add the 13th of them because when we started this podcast, Strange New Worlds wasn't a thing yet.

826
00:58:04.260 --> 00:58:08.699
So the Randomiser usually had 12, but I've added one.

827
00:58:09.360 --> 00:58:12.599
Well, I desperate to press his butt.

828
00:58:12.659 --> 00:58:13.199
May I?

829
00:58:13.320 --> 00:58:18.539
Your random Star Trek Voyager episode is, oh, no.

830
00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:20.940
Season 7.

831
00:58:20.940 --> 00:58:26.039
Episodes 25 and 26, end game.

832
00:58:26.099 --> 00:58:26.760
You have to do it.

833
00:58:26.820 --> 00:58:27.780
It's a finale.

834
00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:29.340
You have to do it.

835
00:58:29.340 --> 00:58:30.960
No, that's a series for now.

836
00:58:31.019 --> 00:58:31.800
We just have to do it.

837
00:58:31.860 --> 00:58:34.679
I know we've just done a arable as well.

838
00:58:34.739 --> 00:58:41.699
Yeah, yeah, we've done a big 2 part of just last week, but I just think there's no avoiding it if we've rolled that. have to do it.

839
00:58:41.760 --> 00:58:43.320
Have we done a series opener?

840
00:58:43.380 --> 00:58:45.360
Oh, yeah, well, we did Stranger Worlds.

841
00:58:46.139 --> 00:58:48.000
Because we cheated.

842
00:58:48.059 --> 00:58:48.900
Of course we did.

843
00:58:48.900 --> 00:58:49.380
Let's do it.

844
00:58:49.440 --> 00:58:58.199
I think we have to do it I mean, We could watch this and yeah, it could revolutionise what we think about Star Trek Voyager.

845
00:58:58.260 --> 00:58:59.820
Well, actually...

846
00:58:59.820 --> 00:59:02.760
They were heading to this random climax all along.

847
00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:03.960
You know?

848
00:59:04.019 --> 00:59:07.800
I mean, we did just do a series one.

849
00:59:07.800 --> 00:59:09.000
Yeah, which was really good.

850
00:59:09.059 --> 00:59:15.900
And this is all about getting on, to be fair, just via every cliche in the TNG book.

851
00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:19.559
Yeah, I actually don't remember it all that well and it's possible I've only ever seen it once.

852
00:59:19.679 --> 00:59:22.920
I'm not sure we've ever done the 1st press of the bar.

853
00:59:22.980 --> 00:59:23.760
We have.

854
00:59:23.820 --> 00:59:24.119
We have.

855
00:59:24.179 --> 00:59:25.559
Oh, okay.

856
00:59:25.619 --> 00:59:26.760
I think we do it.

857
00:59:26.820 --> 00:59:30.539
Nathan, saddle up because we're going to watch Endgame.

858
00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:31.380
Brilliant.

859
00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:45.000
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley.

860
00:59:45.059 --> 00:59:51.000
We're online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.

861
00:59:51.059 --> 00:59:56.340
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceron, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

862
00:59:56.400 --> 01:00:02.460
This episode was recorded on the 17th of September 2022 and released on the 23rd of September.

863
01:00:02.519 --> 01:00:05.579
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager.

864
01:00:05.639 --> 01:00:06.360
End game.

865
01:00:22.199 --> 01:00:23.579
Okay.

866
01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:25.500
Okay.

867
01:00:25.559 --> 01:00:27.000
Should we do it?

868
01:00:27.059 --> 01:00:27.840
Mm hmm.

869
01:00:27.900 --> 01:00:35.880
Did you, we had quite a long, um, Did you hear the long, uh, tag for the last episode?

870
01:00:35.940 --> 01:00:38.940
No, I am halfway through Shadows and Simples.

871
01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:40.079
So what I'm doing...

872
01:00:40.079 --> 01:00:41.280
I get the train back forth.

873
01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:42.539
I'm listening.

874
01:00:42.599 --> 01:00:44.219
Yeah, that's right.

875
01:00:44.280 --> 01:00:48.059
I mustn't use it longer than that because my train train is only 15 minutes.

876
01:00:48.119 --> 01:00:49.260
Yeah.

877
01:00:49.320 --> 01:00:50.340
Yeah, so it's funny.

878
01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:59.579
I think that, you know, with a big podcast that's 2 hours long, that I don't mind that, like, I have a few podcasts that do that all the time.

879
01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:02.760
And it says, well, I'm going to just listen to it in bits.

880
01:01:02.820 --> 01:01:03.539
It going to be fine.

881
01:01:03.659 --> 01:01:09.599
But the big, long tag is us talking about vaulting ambition and smart style.

882
01:01:09.599 --> 01:01:11.159
Like afterwards.

883
01:01:11.219 --> 01:01:13.139
So it's it's a thing.

884
01:01:13.199 --> 01:01:23.940
It's a little bit like an FDE tag where it's kind of like I'm sick of editing and this bit's good and I don't know what to do with it, so I'm going to bung it after the closing credits and only lightly editing.

885
01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:24.719
Oh, no, exactly.

886
01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:26.340
I told her which one it was, if it was St.

887
01:01:26.340 --> 01:01:27.719
John or accident, where you went.

888
01:01:27.780 --> 01:01:29.519
That's the tack.