WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-01 at 21:17:09

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Hey, Joe. Hi.

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At the end of our last episode, I think I was pretty excited about

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doing this.

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This is vaulting ambition, which is episode 12, and I think it is

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the 2nd last.

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So the 3rd of 4 episodes of series one that is set in the Mirror

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Universe.

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Is that right?

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I think that is.

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It's our 1st venture to the very universe.

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Yeah, and I'm not going to have shit all over this right at the

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start of this, but I'd say it is one of the weaker Mirror Universe

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and it's certainly probably the weakest of these four because it's

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like a transitionary between A to C episode, isn't it?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So we sort of had a similar structure last time when we did image

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in the sand and shadows and symbols where there were basically 3

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or 4 plot threads that were just running through the thing.

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But that was a whole story.

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And so those 3 or 4 plot threads all came to a climax at the same

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time and they all came to a conclusion and then we sort of met

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up.

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This is a bit more like an episode of a soap opera because

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essentially, we have a few plots progressing and they just advance

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very gradually, and then there is a big climax at the end.

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And the other 3 mirror universe episodes, which the randomiser

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didn't choose, all have an actual coherent thing that happens in

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each of them.

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There's even like a massive twist or a big set piece or like

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there's a sequence between Locker and Giorgio, where they kick the

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shit out of each other for about 10 minutes.

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It was just incredible.

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Do you know what?

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I thought that this was going to be that one.

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I was so excited to watch.

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I'm like, well, what's this?

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It's just people talking for half hour.

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You know?

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Yeah, exactly.

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Exactly.

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And so I think the 1st episode is, you know, they arrive in the

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mirror universe and kind of find out what it is because this is

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the 1st ship after the Defiant, which must get mentioned in mirror

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mirror, uh, to enter the mirror universe.

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They like using a defined in these mirror universe episodes, you

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know, because Enterprise rebuilt the defiant sets for their 2

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passer and it is in the original series one as well.

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So yeah, there's a common location.

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Yeah, and it's the sort of thing that this version of Star Trek

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would do is to kind of go back to the very beginning and, you know

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reference the Mirror Mirror episode of Star Trek, the original

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series.

54
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Of course, they would do that.

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Guess it's for the past, in Kurtzman Trek.

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I don't know what you're talking about.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And so our 1st episode is them arriving and then Tilly having to

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pretend to be Captain Keely.

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That's really fun.

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Yeah, which is really fun.

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It's like a dreadful pantomime because she's just cocking up in

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various ways, isn't she?

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Well, she really gets into it, doesn't she?

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And they put her in this fabulous gold costume.

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You know, very elaborate straight in her hair.

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She still has the straightened hair actually in this episode we're

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going to watch.

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And then the 2nd one has us meeting all the non-human races, all

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of the people who are kind of terrorised by the Terran Empire, and

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that includes Michael's father, Sarek.

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It includes Volk, who is then revealed to be the mirror universe

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version of Ash, and Ash is kind of activated by seeing Volk as a

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Klingon.

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And so there's a thing that happens there.

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And he murders the lovely Dr. Colbert in, I just couldn't believe

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when they... so bad.

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I mean, there was a bit of retro rewriting there, was it?

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It was Wayum Star rewriting.

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No, we like that character.

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Let's find a way to bring it back.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And, you know, then they go on and make fun of it with shacks

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between series one and 2 of lower decks, where, you know, it's

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just bridge crew members always kind of come back to life and it's

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best not to talk about it too much.

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But it is a huge mistake and it is an instance of bury your gaze

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as well.

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You have the 1st gay couple on Star Trek and you kill one of

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them.

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Which, given sort of the path discovery takes in terms of

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representation, is a bit shocking, isn't it?

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Yeah, it was a bad mistake.

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And then after this, after this episode, we have the giant climax

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and we have Locke falling into a...

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Which is literally like balls to the walls.

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That's really great. is amazing.

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Yeah.

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And, you know, after what's the woman's name, Giorgio, the

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actress.

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Oh, her cousin Michelle.

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And she's got a massive fuck off laser gun. and she's letting you

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crack, crack and shooting everybody.

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I mean, when she agreed to do this, You know, I almost she had

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that written in her contract. you know, I want a big gun, right?

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There is nothing like seeing a woman in her late 50s like kick the

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shit out of people and kick them in the head.

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You know, like she's so good.

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I mean, I'm convinced that the direction that the showrunner had

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before he was fired wasn't that they were going to go into the

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mirror universe and then the evil Giorgio was going to be a

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regular character, but it was the best innovation that came out of

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this whole mess because then she went on to be the best character

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in series two, three. good.

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So we will talk more about this because I do think that the mirror

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universe does the actual proper plot thing that a parallel

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universe is supposed to do in genre TV, which is you go into the

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mirror universe to see the consequences of what will happen if you

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get it wrong.

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And Star Trek Picard series 2 does this as well.

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The Confederacy and the, is it the Confederacy?

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The Confederation.

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No, the Confederacy's real.

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The Confederation and the Terran Empire are very similar.

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I still think that 2nd episode of Picard, you know, series 2.

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It's one of the best episodes they ever did with Picard, a mad

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pyrant dictator.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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No, it's very good.

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But I think, like, the very universe.

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I think it's actually a little more divisive than I thought.

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I think people kind of either love it or hate it, because

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generally speaking, it's sort of dark comic book versions of the

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characters that we know, there's usually a lesbian about somewhere

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you know, doing unspeakable things in leather.

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And I think the original series got it just about right when they

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did mirror, mirror.

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And that's that's a quite a dark episode.

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I won't re-roll that at some point.

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TNG didn't touch it at all, did they?

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They never went to the M University. books and things like that in

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spinoff material.

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And then DS9 really led into it and it did basically an annual

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visit. to the mirror universe with running pots going through it.

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And it's, it basically is the reverse of what DS9 usually does

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which I think gets better as it goes along.

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Well, their mirror universe episodes start incredibly well with

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crossover and ends appalling me with the emperor's new cloak.

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And I think they just got a bit lazy as they went along and just

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leant on the sex and the violence and the action.

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Whereas the 1st one was genuinely like uh, this really, it's the

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station, but back as an all processing plant, Kira's this mad tire

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and it's genuinely a very dark, very disturbing version of Deep

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Space 9.

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Enterprise, didn't touch it at all.

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And like, but it's like the 3rd or 4th to last episodes.

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And suddenly Enterprise is having fun and boy, do they have fun?

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That's one of the best Mirror Universe stories, that Enterprise

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one, with a gone running around the defiant, things like that. and

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Hoshi as a Hoshi's the eagle lesbian in that one.

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Finally given something to do.

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So here we don't have the evil lesbian because we're beyond that, I

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think.

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And so we don't do that, but what we do do is kind of confront the

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Starfleet people with this sort of bleak version of themselves or

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their world that isn't adhering to kind of the morals of Starfleet

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that is based on an entirely different ethic.

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And given that they're at a point in the war, when they're having

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to make decisions about whether to junk their ethics in order to

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just win, it's really timely.

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And of course, there's digs at Trump, which, uh, seemed surprising

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at the time, but aren't surprising now years later after we've had

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seasons and seasons, of course, on trek, which is very, very

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clearly positioning itself against, uh, you know, the alt right

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and all of that kind of thing.

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I think it was surprising about this sort of four-part diversion.

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And the fact is 4 parts of, you know, a fairly short season.

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So they're committing a lot of time to this is the mirror universe

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could be sort of old hat at this point, but they genuinely breathe

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new life into it, you know, and do something interesting with it.

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And I, I'm not sure what I think about law car, who was

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established as a really interesting character at the beginning of

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this season, and then just turns out to be, you know, comic book

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villain. you know, of the week when, and you know, and then he's

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just summarily dispatched.

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And I'm wondering if that character was ever supposed to like

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remain with the show or this was always a path they were going

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down.

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And he's a lot of fun.

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But I just, I think all substance with law, just vanishes, the 2nd

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we jump into the mirror universe, and that's a bit of a shame.

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Yeah, I always kind of thought that at the time.

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Like, I thought, look, you know, there's a possibility it ends up

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him being from the Mirror Universe, you know, because he's the

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Starfleet captain who can't be bothered to learn whether a

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Gormagand is a fish or not.

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You know, like he just doesn't care.

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And he does seem to have a personality disorder.

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Like he is very unlikeable and he behaves in all sorts of odd

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slightly creepy ways, particularly towards Michael.

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And it's kind of, you know, like I think there is kind of a

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mystery about why he's like that.

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And so we solve that mystery here, and I kind of think that's

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okay.

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And certainly, you know, maybe we weren't going to get Jason

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Isaacs for, you know, more than one year.

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Yeah, I just I would like him to stick around, you know, because

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he is very... good.

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Yeah, yeah Well, then conversely, though, I think on the other end

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of the scale, I found Georgia a little bit dull in those 1st

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couple of episodes, whereas her version in the Mirror Universe is

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just extraordinary, you know?

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Yeah, yeah.

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Michelle Young.

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We can't say she's not chewing the scenery because she's devouring

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it wholeheartedly.

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She's loving every 2nd of this.

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And that extends to the audience, you know?

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Yeah, yeah.

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This is Michelle, in a parallel universe, you know, before she had

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a whole film about it.

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And it is really great.

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And just the bond between her and Michael. is super interesting.

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It's really very good.

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What do you reckon?

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I reckon we should watch the thing So the other thing is it's 37

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minutes long.

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So there's something going wrong at this point in the season, I

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think. like episodes.

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No, it's just not, they don't have the right amount of material

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and this episode never coheres around a single thing.

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And so it is just incremental advances in various plots

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culminating in what is a pretty spectacular cliffhanger though.

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Well, I don't I don't think anybody would ever.

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I've said to you before about, uh, the sort of the, uh, Kurtzman

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Trek, and that is like, who's ever going to remember vaulting

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ambition?

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as an individual. because it is just inching pulse along, you

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know?

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Yeah, yeah.

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Whereas I think the other 3 are memorable.

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Well, we'll remember incidents one, the set pieces.

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We'll remember twists.

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But do you remember many individual episodes of series one of

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Discovery?

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No, but I mean, I've just watched Severance and I don't remember

247
00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:14.519
many individual episodes from that either because that's how TV is

248
00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:18.299
now, you know, that TV... of this kind.

249
00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:22.980
I will never forget masks, particularly not when I have lower

250
00:13:22.980 --> 00:13:24.840
decks around to remind me of them.

251
00:13:25.259 --> 00:13:26.940
What is it?

252
00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:28.019
Nasaka, is it?

253
00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:28.860
What's he called?

254
00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:32.220
No, I think she was called Mookie or something.

255
00:13:33.539 --> 00:13:36.179
He has salmon jewel.

256
00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:38.519
It's so good So great.

257
00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:39.960
I'd love to get you earlier.

258
00:13:40.019 --> 00:13:42.840
Lower text, dude, never read, whilst it's looking over his

259
00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:45.120
shoulder, the ridiculous of 90s tracks.

260
00:13:45.179 --> 00:13:45.960
Exactly.

261
00:13:46.019 --> 00:13:48.120
Or just trek generally, really.

262
00:13:48.179 --> 00:13:50.940
Can I make one very quick point, though, before we go in?

263
00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:53.460
Because I read this on memory alpha.

264
00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:59.759
And this is the 1st point. where the entirety.

265
00:13:59.820 --> 00:14:03.840
I mean, everybody in the writer's room was female.

266
00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:05.820
Oh, wow.

267
00:14:05.820 --> 00:14:07.440
They make a point of pointing that out.

268
00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:11.100
These women all looked at each other in this room and had a moment

269
00:14:11.100 --> 00:14:15.299
of this is the 1st time ever where a group of women are

270
00:14:15.299 --> 00:14:17.879
determining the future of Star Trek.

271
00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:21.000
That's fantastic. pretty incredible, isn't it?

272
00:14:21.059 --> 00:14:21.539
It's amazing.

273
00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:22.080
Wow.

274
00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:23.940
Shame, the episode is so dreary.

275
00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:25.740
Yeah, it is a bit.

276
00:14:25.740 --> 00:14:31.019
All right, I'm going to keep an eye out on the writing credits and

277
00:14:31.019 --> 00:14:34.860
all of those executive producers, I think there's 16 in the

278
00:14:34.860 --> 00:14:35.639
opening credits.

279
00:14:35.700 --> 00:14:36.360
We could count.

280
00:14:36.419 --> 00:14:38.879
One as long as Yeste's Enterprise, though, you know.

281
00:14:38.940 --> 00:14:40.320
No, that's true.

282
00:14:40.379 --> 00:14:41.580
All right.

283
00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:50.279
I will count us in five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

284
00:14:50.340 --> 00:14:52.259
Oh, yeah.

285
00:14:52.259 --> 00:14:55.740
And we've got the dot repainting the Enterprise.

286
00:14:55.799 --> 00:15:00.600
He's Tilly in her fabulous Terran Empire outfit.

287
00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:02.039
I was watching the show.

288
00:15:02.100 --> 00:15:03.419
Preparation for this.

289
00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:05.460
I was like, bloody hell, there's a lot going on, isn't there?

290
00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:07.139
People are dying, Cleons having sex.

291
00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:08.340
Like it's all happening.

292
00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:13.980
I really like that because we already know that they can appear as

293
00:15:13.980 --> 00:15:14.460
other races.

294
00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:16.620
I mean, that happens in TOS, doesn't it?

295
00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:22.080
But here having it be so visceral, like that it's being tortured

296
00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:25.980
you know, that it's soaring him up and remaking him and it's

297
00:15:25.980 --> 00:15:27.240
something's kind of terrifying.

298
00:15:27.299 --> 00:15:30.539
I'm not sure I ever need to certainly not having sex, though, I'm

299
00:15:30.539 --> 00:15:30.779
honest.

300
00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:33.120
You could have just told me about that.

301
00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:35.759
Yeah, that's it.

302
00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:37.500
Or not even told you about that.

303
00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:40.980
Like, um, like, the sheer doesn't want to hear about it.

304
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:43.320
Yeah, don't you bow before your emperor?

305
00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:44.039
Emperor.

306
00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:45.299
You bet I do.

307
00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:48.299
We all would, would we?

308
00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:49.080
Yeah.

309
00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:52.919
So do you remember what the Klingons look like in Star Trek

310
00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:53.220
Beyond?

311
00:15:54.059 --> 00:15:55.440
No.

312
00:15:55.559 --> 00:16:01.379
They had no hair and they had like different ridgy kind of heads

313
00:16:01.379 --> 00:16:02.159
and stuff.

314
00:16:02.220 --> 00:16:06.480
So they don't look like the Discovery Klingons, but both Discovery

315
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:09.299
and Star Trek beyond going the same direction.

316
00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:12.779
And I think the direction is trying to make them not look like

317
00:16:12.779 --> 00:16:14.100
members of a heavy metal band.

318
00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:17.340
Well, I remember there was this big hoo-ha about, you know, given

319
00:16:17.340 --> 00:16:20.399
the Klingon was a different loop, but 90s trek did that after the

320
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:21.000
original series.

321
00:16:21.299 --> 00:16:25.740
They're just reinterpreting every time, you know, the franchise

322
00:16:25.740 --> 00:16:27.419
skips forward 20 years.

323
00:16:27.539 --> 00:16:33.480
Yeah, they look different in the in Star Trek of the motionless

324
00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:35.220
picture than they ever look anywhere else.

325
00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:39.179
And if you've got the ability to do more sophisticated makeup.

326
00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:41.340
Well, you're not going to go, well, no, we're going to make it

327
00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:43.559
look like those 90s one with a massive hair, you know?

328
00:16:43.620 --> 00:16:44.879
Yeah.

329
00:16:44.940 --> 00:16:46.799
They were too cuddly, I think.

330
00:16:46.860 --> 00:16:50.940
And this is a series where the Klingons are dangerous and really

331
00:16:50.940 --> 00:16:56.700
alien and so they need to be much more terrifying. an alien.

332
00:16:56.759 --> 00:16:58.500
I'll say a little bit dull.

333
00:16:58.620 --> 00:16:59.159
Sorry.

334
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:01.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

335
00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:03.539
I mean, they do have very sort of Star Trek moments.

336
00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:08.099
But I do like that very, very 1st big speech of Takuvma's in

337
00:17:08.099 --> 00:17:11.400
Discovery, episode one, I think, is pretty great.

338
00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:14.880
Can I ask you, whenever we go to the mirror universe, in whatever

339
00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:18.240
iteration of Star Trek, you're watching, everyone's just dressed

340
00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:23.099
much more sexier and everyone just looks better in the mirror

341
00:17:23.099 --> 00:17:23.519
universe.

342
00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:25.500
Yeah, yeah.

343
00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:26.400
Yeah.

344
00:17:26.460 --> 00:17:28.440
I love this line too.

345
00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:32.279
So this is a talk between, so this is the closest the episode

346
00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:33.779
comes to being about something.

347
00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:39.000
So we start the episode with this scene between Michael and Lawker

348
00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:40.920
and the 2 of them are working together.

349
00:17:40.980 --> 00:17:45.720
They're talking about the other Giorgio, the one who's, and we're

350
00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:50.220
in, you see him react to the light that came in through the glass

351
00:17:50.220 --> 00:17:52.799
so he reestablish his sensitivity to light.

352
00:17:52.859 --> 00:17:57.779
And then the end of the episode is about his identity.

353
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:02.400
And so the episode is trying to be about something, but it doesn't

354
00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:03.180
actually manage it.

355
00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:05.220
It doesn't cohere around any single idea.

356
00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:06.960
But that's an attempt.

357
00:18:07.019 --> 00:18:09.119
They top and tail it with locker scenes.

358
00:18:09.180 --> 00:18:13.019
I just say the special effect shot of the shuttle going into

359
00:18:13.019 --> 00:18:13.319
that.

360
00:18:13.500 --> 00:18:17.220
Hugely impressive shit looked amazing.

361
00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:20.160
Yeah, very badly like it leapt out of a cinema.

362
00:18:20.220 --> 00:18:20.940
It looked terrific.

363
00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:24.960
Yeah, well, that that ship looks incredible in the last mirror

364
00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:27.539
universe. um episode.

365
00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:28.319
It's so good.

366
00:18:28.740 --> 00:18:33.660
So, cousin Michelle's a special guest star at this point.

367
00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:35.339
Does she remain especially?

368
00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:36.960
Diane Maldar, isn't it?

369
00:18:37.019 --> 00:18:38.220
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

370
00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:40.200
She used to be our special guest star for an entire season.

371
00:18:40.259 --> 00:18:43.799
Well, I guess Michelle Yeoh comes from movies and is sort of

372
00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:46.680
slumming it in TV and so...

373
00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:47.759
I know.

374
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:50.519
No, because I think she knew, once she'd got her hands on this

375
00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:53.099
character, she's always going to be the best character in the

376
00:18:53.099 --> 00:18:53.339
room.

377
00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:54.779
She was always going to get the best lives.

378
00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:55.500
You know?

379
00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:58.380
Do you remember that dinner scene we watched where everyone was

380
00:18:58.380 --> 00:18:59.940
getting on?

381
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:01.980
Then she just was like, she was enjoying it.

382
00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:04.200
Yeah, she...

383
00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:06.119
Or staring it off terribly.

384
00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:08.519
She's marvellous.

385
00:19:08.579 --> 00:19:12.960
It's I can't remember what the titles are like now. different from

386
00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:13.140
this?

387
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:14.759
Is it different technology?

388
00:19:14.819 --> 00:19:16.859
No, no, it looks the same.

389
00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:19.980
It's the same sort of blueprint thing, but we see different

390
00:19:19.980 --> 00:19:20.640
things.

391
00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:25.619
And like we see the DM, the DMA, for instance.

392
00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:26.940
I nearly said DMV.

393
00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:29.400
We see the GMA and the...

394
00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:31.079
When they brought Star Trek back.

395
00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:34.259
Brian Fuller was the person they chose.

396
00:19:34.380 --> 00:19:36.599
Not because he's a terrible writer, but just because he was

397
00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:39.480
heavily involved in latter 90s trek.

398
00:19:39.539 --> 00:19:42.420
And you would have thought they would have just gone with a brand

399
00:19:42.420 --> 00:19:42.960
new vision.

400
00:19:43.859 --> 00:19:47.460
Do you think in series one of discovery, they just tried to throw

401
00:19:47.460 --> 00:19:48.059
everything in?

402
00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:53.519
I feel like, I feel like, you know, it was full of fall to the

403
00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:56.640
brim too, you know, too much, too much instant, too many shocks.

404
00:19:57.180 --> 00:19:59.039
Lots happening.

405
00:19:59.220 --> 00:20:00.720
Yeah.

406
00:20:00.779 --> 00:20:04.680
It's the 1st time anything like this has been attempted in Star

407
00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:12.720
Trek because even like maybe the beginning of series 6 of Deep

408
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:17.579
Space 9 and maybe series 3 actually of Enterprise is the closest.

409
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:19.019
Is it?

410
00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:19.799
Season long.

411
00:20:19.859 --> 00:20:22.140
Yeah, a season-long thing.

412
00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:24.599
And so here we've got like 15, 16 episodes.

413
00:20:24.660 --> 00:20:29.400
This is longer than the seasons two, three, and four. the longest

414
00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:29.759
season.

415
00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:32.460
I don't know.

416
00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:37.019
The idea that there are twists and mysteries, like the vogue twist

417
00:20:37.019 --> 00:20:39.359
the ash is vogue twist.

418
00:20:39.420 --> 00:20:43.680
And remember, you know, like we were looking at the IMDb page to

419
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:47.279
see who was playing Volk and they had, you know, and the opening

420
00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:49.440
credits gave a different name.

421
00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:53.160
Um, and I think it was still a sort of Arabic name.

422
00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:55.740
It gave a different name.

423
00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:56.880
Oh, I actually don't know.

424
00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:01.259
I don't know his ethnicity where there is. anyway.

425
00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:06.059
But, you know, like it gave it gave a name and so, but that person

426
00:21:06.059 --> 00:21:09.660
had no other credits and people were kind of going, he's Ash, you

427
00:21:09.660 --> 00:21:12.960
know, like people were wondering whether Ash was vogue.

428
00:21:13.019 --> 00:21:15.240
And then there was the mystery of lawker, wasn't there?

429
00:21:15.299 --> 00:21:17.640
And I think there was a little bit of that in 90s trade.

430
00:21:17.700 --> 00:21:19.259
Oh, what's up with Eddington?

431
00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:20.759
What's up with Castie Yates?

432
00:21:20.819 --> 00:21:24.420
But not to this extent, because how we look at television now, it's

433
00:21:24.420 --> 00:21:27.119
completely, we study it and look for these shots.

434
00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:29.460
But I mean, sort of like as a season.

435
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:33.059
I don't think there's ever going to be another season of Star Trek

436
00:21:33.059 --> 00:21:36.480
like this. where narratively it was so different from what came

437
00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:40.920
before, you know, they're throwing in new races, tonally, they're

438
00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:43.559
they're putting in sort of explicit sex and swearing.

439
00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:47.819
And violence, really gory in places, even in this episode.

440
00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:50.279
But they retract some of this later on.

441
00:21:50.339 --> 00:21:51.059
It's what they know.

442
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:53.940
It's never quite visceral, I don't think. later on.

443
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:54.599
No.

444
00:21:54.660 --> 00:21:57.180
And so it's kind of unique, isn't it?

445
00:21:57.240 --> 00:21:59.819
It was a period of experimentation.

446
00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:01.019
They don't always go right.

447
00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:02.160
No.

448
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:03.539
Boy, did they try a lot?

449
00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:07.500
Well, one of the ways that I, one of the reasons I think that I

450
00:22:07.500 --> 00:22:10.680
reacted so well to it was that it was visually stunning.

451
00:22:10.740 --> 00:22:15.660
Like that 1st episode where Michael goes out onto that Klingon

452
00:22:15.660 --> 00:22:18.000
statue beacon thing.

453
00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:22.079
Like it just looked incredible in a way that Star Trek just didn't

454
00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:24.359
outside the movies and even movies.

455
00:22:24.420 --> 00:22:29.279
You have somewhat exposed to me as we've done this thing, comparing

456
00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:33.539
to the 90s in that they didn't really do weird a lot in 90s, you

457
00:22:33.539 --> 00:22:35.819
know, or if they did, it was very lame.

458
00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:39.900
Whereas we just had him there going through some bizarre sort of

459
00:22:39.900 --> 00:22:40.920
alien jungle.

460
00:22:40.980 --> 00:22:44.759
Because scenes where he's talking to himself in his head, we never

461
00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:46.259
saw anything like that before, did we?

462
00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:48.900
No, and in fact, where we are now.

463
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:55.380
So this is Mirror, Paul, and our Paul interacting inside the

464
00:22:55.380 --> 00:23:01.200
Mycelial Network, which is being cheaply realised in this scene as

465
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:07.259
just... on Port Discovery. you know, in the way that Deep Space 9

466
00:23:07.259 --> 00:23:10.619
did sort of routinely as well, where you would have, you know

467
00:23:10.619 --> 00:23:13.019
people subconscious being represented by the station.

468
00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:15.180
That's right.

469
00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:16.980
Just with a few tentacles coming out of the wall.

470
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:18.180
Exactly.

471
00:23:18.539 --> 00:23:19.920
Yeah.

472
00:23:19.980 --> 00:23:23.640
I think I was reading the fellow that plays Stamitz.

473
00:23:23.700 --> 00:23:27.660
It was his idea to where the Mirror Universe costume and it's

474
00:23:27.660 --> 00:23:29.759
originally he was wearing the two, but he's no less

475
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:31.079
differentiating Italy.

476
00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:33.779
So we know who's talking from 12nd to the next.

477
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:36.299
Oh, here we go.

478
00:23:36.900 --> 00:23:40.859
I think the really, really striking thing.

479
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:43.140
This is so simple, is the yellow light.

480
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:45.960
You know, Did you say that?

481
00:23:46.019 --> 00:23:48.059
She was Regina Andor.

482
00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:49.799
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

483
00:23:49.859 --> 00:23:54.539
She's queen of and like all of those major, you know, federation

484
00:23:54.539 --> 00:23:56.640
powers, she's in control of all of them.

485
00:23:56.700 --> 00:24:00.180
And we saw that last episode, but this is them meeting properly

486
00:24:00.180 --> 00:24:01.319
for the 1st time, isn't it?

487
00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:06.000
It is, and like, compare Michelle Yeo's performance here, who is

488
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:10.319
utterly assured of her position to Tilly, who is in a position of

489
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:11.579
power in the last episode.

490
00:24:11.819 --> 00:24:14.400
And very uncertain of herself.

491
00:24:14.460 --> 00:24:19.559
I don't get for 12nd that Emperor Giorgio doubts her position here

492
00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:21.539
and that everybody will bend to her will.

493
00:24:22.019 --> 00:24:26.519
And so we think in this scene that she's being asked to choose a

494
00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:31.019
kelpien who will presumably kind of wait on her.

495
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:33.059
Yeah.

496
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:37.019
So I think in the previous episode, and I may be misremembering in

497
00:24:37.019 --> 00:24:42.720
one of the 2 previous episodes, we had a scene where she was in

498
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:47.700
the turbo lift with one of her crewmates from the Shenzhou who

499
00:24:47.700 --> 00:24:51.599
didn't survive the Battle of the Binary Stars in her universe, but

500
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:55.740
he's still alive in the mirror universe. and she's forced to kill

501
00:24:55.740 --> 00:24:57.960
him in order to defend herself.

502
00:24:58.019 --> 00:25:03.059
And it's hugely visceral and really, really visibly upsetting.

503
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:05.400
Oh, there we go. brilliant.

504
00:25:05.460 --> 00:25:06.960
Take that now.

505
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:07.500
Jason.

506
00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:11.220
Your life will be long, Gabriel.

507
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:15.059
I mean, you know, something about it is a back.

508
00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:18.059
Oh, that's so camp, isn't it?

509
00:25:19.619 --> 00:25:24.059
I think you can get one, you know, on lovehoney.com.

510
00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:29.880
But the fact that she's, you know, she's choosing a sleigh is bad

511
00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:30.180
enough.

512
00:25:30.180 --> 00:25:33.359
Because you think, oh, she's too, someone to be subservient.

513
00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:36.240
No, it's far darker than that.

514
00:25:36.299 --> 00:25:37.319
Yeah, yeah.

515
00:25:37.380 --> 00:25:41.339
But but just seeing her confronted in this visceral way with these

516
00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:47.579
people who are just simply evil, um, you know, and that they were

517
00:25:47.579 --> 00:25:52.319
her friends and this was her mentor, you know, her and Philippa

518
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:54.900
really loved one another, I mean, they were.

519
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:59.220
You know, they were the captain and the 1st officer of the

520
00:25:59.220 --> 00:26:04.559
Shanzhou for 7 years or something, you know, all 7 seasons of Star

521
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:08.579
Trek, Shenzhou, you know, they were there together.

522
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:13.140
But you tell me now, how would this relationship play out if we

523
00:26:13.140 --> 00:26:14.940
were in 90s track in the very universe?

524
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:16.680
They'd be fucking back.

525
00:26:16.740 --> 00:26:19.259
They would absolutely be lesbian lovers.

526
00:26:19.380 --> 00:26:24.119
And that's what's so great, I think, is too.

527
00:26:24.180 --> 00:26:30.059
That they love one another and giving villains, you know, villains

528
00:26:30.059 --> 00:26:33.420
who are just fighting one another all the time, that's kind of

529
00:26:33.420 --> 00:26:36.119
boring, but villains that genuinely love one another or that

530
00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:37.740
genuinely experience love.

531
00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:41.400
That's really good and that's complex and interesting.

532
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:44.579
It's kind of doing that, Rossy Davis thing that he did in the 2nd

533
00:26:44.579 --> 00:26:47.880
series of Dogs Who, where you had Jackie Tarlow from this universe

534
00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:52.619
and Pete from that universe and they kind of look, like, fill the

535
00:26:52.619 --> 00:26:53.700
gaps in each other's lives.

536
00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:58.259
Well, Georgia here genuinely loved the alternative Burnham, and

537
00:26:58.259 --> 00:27:00.960
Burnham there genuinely loved the other Giorgio.

538
00:27:01.019 --> 00:27:04.380
And so it's a really interesting relationship to see play out

539
00:27:04.380 --> 00:27:08.519
after this when we go back into because they do fulfil something

540
00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:11.579
in each other's lives, even though Georgia can't quite help a bit

541
00:27:11.579 --> 00:27:12.480
total bitch all the time.

542
00:27:12.539 --> 00:27:18.480
Now, you, we are talking over how pretty Ash is when he's lying

543
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:20.579
distressed on that hospital bear.

544
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:22.559
I have to be distressed.

545
00:27:22.980 --> 00:27:26.759
No, but when he's lying back there and he just says, Saru, help

546
00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:27.359
me.

547
00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:30.059
And, you know, this incredible violence has been done to him.

548
00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:31.259
Oh, here we are.

549
00:27:31.859 --> 00:27:34.019
But what do you think about this sort of getting us close to these

550
00:27:34.019 --> 00:27:37.259
characters and then revealing actually they were this personal

551
00:27:37.259 --> 00:27:37.920
along?

552
00:27:37.980 --> 00:27:40.500
Is that cheating the audience?

553
00:27:40.619 --> 00:27:45.180
Uh, no, I think the, I think the, it's a genuine mystery, and

554
00:27:45.180 --> 00:27:46.740
Lorke is Lorke.

555
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:48.420
He's just a terrible person.

556
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:49.440
Here we go.

557
00:27:49.500 --> 00:27:53.940
And this is the moment where Michael realises that she's eating

558
00:27:53.940 --> 00:27:59.220
the Kelpie she chose and she has to continue doing it after she's

559
00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:01.019
discovered it because she can't let on.

560
00:28:01.079 --> 00:28:05.880
This is my favourite thing because she acts...

561
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:07.440
She is visibly distressed.

562
00:28:07.500 --> 00:28:10.380
She's trying to keep a poker face at the same time.

563
00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:14.400
Yeah, and just how nearly impossible that is, because you're

564
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:17.579
eating something and it's super visceral and stuff.

565
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:21.240
You know, you can't just sort of blandly, but she has to.

566
00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:23.279
Very briefly sort of gax.

567
00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:26.640
And then you just hear the loudest swallow I've ever heard.

568
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:30.119
Yeah, so everyone's doing upside down with something.

569
00:28:30.180 --> 00:28:31.740
Awesome.

570
00:28:34.019 --> 00:28:40.079
But this is just a series of dialogue series, isn't it?

571
00:28:40.140 --> 00:28:43.200
Like, and that's unusual for Curs for Trek.

572
00:28:43.259 --> 00:28:48.059
There is usually a bit of pace, you know, and a bit of action.

573
00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:53.640
Yeah, I mean, we get a pretty great scene when Michael gets taken

574
00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:57.119
to the throne room to be executed, which I think is pretty good.

575
00:28:57.180 --> 00:29:01.680
And I do think the climax is stunningly great.

576
00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:08.339
I never, it never fails to shock me, the difference in series one

577
00:29:08.339 --> 00:29:09.119
to series four.

578
00:29:09.180 --> 00:29:09.900
Yeah.

579
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:11.220
Yeah, yeah.

580
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:12.779
It's almost a little bit...

581
00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:15.119
I mean, she's not terrible here, but there's something a bit more

582
00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:19.079
sort of Vulcan and robotic about her, which is almost a bad, isn't

583
00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:22.380
it, in that full season, where she's loosened up a little bit.

584
00:29:22.500 --> 00:29:27.359
Well, she's had a year kind of living by herself, you know, between

585
00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:31.559
season 2 and 3 and that's when she comes back a little bit more

586
00:29:31.559 --> 00:29:32.819
chilled, I think.

587
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:36.240
Yeah, I know they're not going down the lesbian route.

588
00:29:36.299 --> 00:29:38.400
You're talking to me now, there are people out there are going to

589
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:40.619
get excited about this scene where she's holding a knife to her

590
00:29:40.619 --> 00:29:44.099
throat, talking very whispering in her ear.

591
00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:50.160
And this, the mother thing, like, we didn't know this, and look at

592
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:51.779
Michael tearing up as well.

593
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:57.000
Now she's being taken out to executed. lighting behind Giorgio

594
00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:57.359
there.

595
00:29:57.420 --> 00:29:59.099
All the lights in the space.

596
00:29:59.099 --> 00:30:00.900
The practical lighting is amazing.

597
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:03.839
Yeah, yeah, it's like an interesting looking.

598
00:30:03.900 --> 00:30:06.299
It's like a deep space 9 set in a way, isn't it?

599
00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:09.900
you know where there's lots of odd geometric shapes and

600
00:30:09.900 --> 00:30:11.880
interesting practical lighting.

601
00:30:11.940 --> 00:30:14.160
I mean, it's always a feast for the eyes.

602
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:17.880
Yeah, yeah, I just feel like I don't have to watch it anymore.

603
00:30:17.940 --> 00:30:19.380
Like, they're just going to spend, you know?

604
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:21.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

605
00:30:22.380 --> 00:30:25.980
So, oh, yes, and that's the other thing too.

606
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:32.759
You see, I think that we know probably that law cut is from the

607
00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:38.819
Mirror Universe, when he tricks, um, Paul into making that final

608
00:30:38.819 --> 00:30:39.539
jump.

609
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:42.359
Yeah, which lands them there.

610
00:30:42.420 --> 00:30:43.259
Yeah.

611
00:30:43.319 --> 00:30:45.059
I think we know where we're going as well.

612
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:49.140
I don't think there's any ambiguity about what's happened in that

613
00:30:49.140 --> 00:30:49.319
moment.

614
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:51.720
Do they reveal it straight away?

615
00:30:51.779 --> 00:30:52.980
Yeah, this is the very universe.

616
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:55.980
Or just, oh, no, where I remember.

617
00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:56.759
Where are we?

618
00:30:56.819 --> 00:30:57.180
I think.

619
00:30:57.240 --> 00:31:03.960
I think I remember being spoiled when I was scrolling through

620
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:11.279
Twitter in a cab in Bangkok on a holiday because there was no way

621
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:12.119
I could watch it.

622
00:31:12.180 --> 00:31:13.799
There was no way I could watch it.

623
00:31:13.859 --> 00:31:16.500
I was really kind of pissed off and I should have been pissed off

624
00:31:16.500 --> 00:31:19.859
with myself because, you know, obviously people were going to talk

625
00:31:19.859 --> 00:31:21.059
about it and spoil it.

626
00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:22.200
All right.

627
00:31:22.259 --> 00:31:28.200
So this scene here is so great because this is where Michael just

628
00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:29.759
comes out to her, isn't it?

629
00:31:29.819 --> 00:31:32.400
Where Michael just says, actually, we've never met.

630
00:31:32.460 --> 00:31:33.779
Yeah, yeah.

631
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:36.420
And then she's intrigued by it. isn't she?

632
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:38.279
What's this Burnham like?

633
00:31:38.460 --> 00:31:44.039
But she, she knows about the mirror universe, but like from our

634
00:31:44.039 --> 00:31:46.920
point of view, no, from their point of view, we're the mirror

635
00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:47.339
universe.

636
00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:47.819
How about that?

637
00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:51.599
So she knows about the mirror universe and our universe.

638
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:54.420
And so she doesn't want it to get out.

639
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:57.180
Is that why she kills everyone or it's just because it's an

640
00:31:57.180 --> 00:31:58.740
incredible, fabulous set piece?

641
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:02.279
I mean, I want to say one.

642
00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:03.240
I believe the latter.

643
00:32:03.299 --> 00:32:04.380
Yeah, yeah.

644
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:07.440
You know, we said about the female, right?

645
00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:07.980
Okay, true.

646
00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:08.940
So wait a second.

647
00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:11.339
This is Lord Ealing.

648
00:32:11.640 --> 00:32:18.359
And so in the Terran Federation Mirror Universe, Ealing, the

649
00:32:18.359 --> 00:32:24.539
London Borough of Ealing, is an important centre of power, and

650
00:32:24.539 --> 00:32:25.559
he's the lord of it.

651
00:32:25.619 --> 00:32:26.579
So how about that?

652
00:32:26.700 --> 00:32:27.839
E League in London.

653
00:32:28.140 --> 00:32:30.180
I've just decided that.

654
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:31.319
That's canon.

655
00:32:31.380 --> 00:32:36.240
But he is literally Lord Ealing, and he does, he's the only one

656
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:40.079
who survives this scene because he's going to kill them all in a

657
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:40.440
sec.

658
00:32:40.500 --> 00:32:44.759
It is worth pointing out that we have 2 incredible women

659
00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:46.799
spearheading these days.

660
00:32:47.339 --> 00:32:49.740
Coming from a female, right?

661
00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:51.839
I mean, things have just changed so much, aren't they?

662
00:32:51.900 --> 00:32:52.799
Look at this.

663
00:32:52.859 --> 00:32:53.640
Look at this.

664
00:32:53.700 --> 00:32:57.660
It slows down so we can watch this thing go through all of their

665
00:32:57.660 --> 00:33:01.500
heads and like all of this sort of cartoon blood.

666
00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:03.660
Lord Ealing who is so gay.

667
00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:05.160
Take a look at him.

668
00:33:05.220 --> 00:33:09.480
He's so cute, but clearly very gay indeed.

669
00:33:09.539 --> 00:33:10.980
In his gold armour.

670
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:13.200
Oh, he's gorgeous.

671
00:33:13.259 --> 00:33:15.480
Hold on one of those flying discs.

672
00:33:15.539 --> 00:33:17.039
I think they were coming quite happy.

673
00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:18.299
So good.

674
00:33:18.359 --> 00:33:19.559
So good.

675
00:33:19.619 --> 00:33:21.779
So she's just killed everyone except Lord Ealing.

676
00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:25.200
And Lord Ealing, she said, I'll give you, I don't know, I'll give

677
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:27.960
you Chiswick or something with you as well.

678
00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:30.599
If you clean all this shit up.

679
00:33:30.660 --> 00:33:33.900
So presumably he's off to get a mop and bucket or something.

680
00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:37.140
I've got to throw all the brains off the floor.

681
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:38.759
What's going on here?

682
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:46.980
So this is Lorell, who is the person who turned Voke into ash, and

683
00:33:46.980 --> 00:33:52.079
we see Lorell and Voke interacting in the early episodes of this

684
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:57.599
season, and they've captured her and she's now our consulting

685
00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:00.299
psychopath in the in the bridge.

686
00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:04.019
So Saru is appealing to her to help Vogue.

687
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:05.160
Do you know what?

688
00:34:05.220 --> 00:34:08.460
I feel like she's probably giving an amazing and committed

689
00:34:08.460 --> 00:34:09.119
performance.

690
00:34:09.179 --> 00:34:11.699
I could really care less about those scenes, you know?

691
00:34:11.820 --> 00:34:16.860
Yeah, I think that some of those scenes early on drag.

692
00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:18.480
I think she's really good though.

693
00:34:18.900 --> 00:34:21.539
Does she get a bigger role on Twitter?

694
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:22.139
Go forward.

695
00:34:22.139 --> 00:34:25.739
She does, she does, she continues to be in it.

696
00:34:25.800 --> 00:34:26.940
They end up together, don't they?

697
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:30.960
Yeah, yeah, I think so.

698
00:34:31.019 --> 00:34:31.619
Yeah.

699
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:32.400
Yeah.

700
00:34:32.460 --> 00:34:34.260
The Mayo is extraordinary.

701
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:36.059
Yeah, isn't it?

702
00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:37.739
She's been burned, obviously.

703
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:42.780
But we see all of those scenes, which, you know, leave Ash as

704
00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:45.960
someone who is having sort of flashbacks to being tortured.

705
00:34:46.019 --> 00:34:49.440
And what's been happening is he's been literally sort of sawn up

706
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:53.099
and put together in these sort of really brutal ways.

707
00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:57.000
And so it's not just sort of sticking some latex ears on and

708
00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:58.800
heading down off to Romulus or whatever.

709
00:34:58.860 --> 00:35:01.380
Interesting to hear you mentioned the word latex, you know.

710
00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:04.019
I do think there is something a little bit latexy about Saru.

711
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:06.960
And that bizarre mouth he's got.

712
00:35:07.019 --> 00:35:11.039
Yeah, I really, I think it works really well, doesn't it?

713
00:35:11.099 --> 00:35:13.019
No, it was...

714
00:35:13.019 --> 00:35:15.960
Doc Jones is the best... is an incredible actor.

715
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:17.820
He involved in this show, you know, like...

716
00:35:17.820 --> 00:35:20.099
Yeah, he's unbelievable guy.

717
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:22.739
Man, have you seen him doing the social media side of it?

718
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:24.360
He sells this show.

719
00:35:24.420 --> 00:35:25.679
I'm telling you. amazing.

720
00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:29.039
Just before he was about to start the new series.

721
00:35:29.099 --> 00:35:31.739
He'd had all his air shaved off and he took a picture on

722
00:35:31.739 --> 00:35:32.280
Instagram.

723
00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:33.360
I'm like, right, I'm ready.

724
00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:34.440
I'm ready to go.

725
00:35:34.500 --> 00:35:36.059
Stick the thing on.

726
00:35:36.900 --> 00:35:39.000
I mean, bless us.

727
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:41.820
Oh, this is probably their show you'll be most known for, looking

728
00:35:41.820 --> 00:35:42.239
like that.

729
00:35:42.300 --> 00:35:45.420
Yeah, well, I mean, he's done other things.

730
00:35:45.539 --> 00:35:47.280
He did play the fish in shape of water.

731
00:35:47.340 --> 00:35:48.719
Oh okay.

732
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:55.199
He's the lead gentleman in harsh in Buffy.

733
00:35:55.260 --> 00:35:59.880
I think he's probably the most consistently good character in this

734
00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:00.420
show, like.

735
00:36:00.539 --> 00:36:03.059
Yeah, and there's a true lily.

736
00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:06.239
Despite the fact, whether he's, what is he at this point?

737
00:36:06.300 --> 00:36:06.900
Science officer.

738
00:36:07.139 --> 00:36:08.699
Yeah, yeah.

739
00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:09.840
And then he's captain.

740
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:13.559
And then he becomes captain and then he's just sort of Mr. Saru

741
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:16.079
who's sort of sort of consulting captain when Michael becomes the

742
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:17.280
actual captain.

743
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:19.619
And like Michael's character has to be sort of substantially

744
00:36:19.619 --> 00:36:21.480
retooled between series 2 and three.

745
00:36:21.539 --> 00:36:23.219
I think a lot of them are, you know.

746
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:25.800
Alexis as well as we go along.

747
00:36:25.860 --> 00:36:27.960
Yeah, a lot of his sort of rough edges are softened up.

748
00:36:28.019 --> 00:36:29.880
But through, I think, comes pretty well formed.

749
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:31.380
Yeah.

750
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:33.360
And he's a pretty incredible captain.

751
00:36:33.420 --> 00:36:36.960
Like that 3rd season where he's captain of the ship.

752
00:36:37.019 --> 00:36:38.219
He's so good.

753
00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:39.420
He's so good in it.

754
00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:42.719
But I think Stamets was initially...

755
00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:46.679
I found, I was quite resistant to how, well, how much of an

756
00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:47.699
arsehole he was.

757
00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:51.360
But you fast forward to that episode we watched in series 4 where

758
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:54.059
they're having that dialogue about the ship's computer.

759
00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:58.440
I think by that point they're right into his strengths and then

760
00:36:58.440 --> 00:36:58.920
some.

761
00:36:58.980 --> 00:36:59.460
Yeah.

762
00:36:59.460 --> 00:37:00.360
Yeah.

763
00:37:00.420 --> 00:37:01.679
Oh, this seems lovely.

764
00:37:01.739 --> 00:37:03.119
I really like this thing.

765
00:37:03.179 --> 00:37:05.219
Well, then when he says he had somewhat favourite moment of the

766
00:37:05.219 --> 00:37:05.400
day.

767
00:37:05.460 --> 00:37:07.860
He's not talking about them brushing their teeth to get really

768
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:10.019
talking about them discussing their dates.

769
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:12.480
He talks about the morning.

770
00:37:12.539 --> 00:37:13.260
Do you know what I mean?

771
00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:16.619
Like the morning where they get up and just hang around and brush

772
00:37:16.619 --> 00:37:19.920
their teeth and get ready for the day and that's what he likes.

773
00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:22.860
And it only gets mentioned because we see it before.

774
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:27.780
And there is a scene earlier on where Paul is brushing his teeth

775
00:37:27.780 --> 00:37:33.300
and then he turns away from the mirror, but his reflection doesn't

776
00:37:33.300 --> 00:37:37.139
turn away and it's something to do with the effects of time, you

777
00:37:37.139 --> 00:37:40.199
know, because he's doing this, but it also kind of hints at the

778
00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:41.940
mirror universe being a thing too.

779
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:45.900
Those 2 characters, Colbert, Stomach.

780
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:47.159
They're both introduced.

781
00:37:47.219 --> 00:37:49.800
But not as a couple, are they?

782
00:37:49.860 --> 00:37:52.440
And then it just becomes apparent that they're a couple.

783
00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:53.460
They're a couple.

784
00:37:53.460 --> 00:37:56.039
Don't they have a moment professionally where there are odds?

785
00:37:56.159 --> 00:37:59.099
And then I think that's how they do it.

786
00:37:59.099 --> 00:38:02.460
And then they have a room seated their quarters together where you

787
00:38:02.460 --> 00:38:03.300
realise they're a couple.

788
00:38:03.420 --> 00:38:04.500
They're a couple.

789
00:38:04.500 --> 00:38:05.340
That's really nice.

790
00:38:06.179 --> 00:38:09.599
It's so, you know, goodness me.

791
00:38:09.659 --> 00:38:13.800
Like we've, I've been pretty negative about the outcast in Star

792
00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:18.239
Trek the Next Generation and...

793
00:38:18.300 --> 00:38:19.320
Yeah, yeah.

794
00:38:19.380 --> 00:38:21.659
And we were critical of stigma.

795
00:38:21.780 --> 00:38:24.539
And, you know, stuff like that.

796
00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:26.639
I forgot about that already.

797
00:38:26.820 --> 00:38:33.659
But it's so nice to just be seen in a show and not be an issue to

798
00:38:33.659 --> 00:38:35.760
be dealt with by the show.

799
00:38:35.820 --> 00:38:38.219
Well, that's the point we're making as well because in 90s

800
00:38:38.219 --> 00:38:38.639
straight.

801
00:38:38.699 --> 00:38:42.059
You kind of had to be an evil alternative lesbian, didn't you?

802
00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:43.079
Yeah, yeah.

803
00:38:43.139 --> 00:38:43.980
Yeah, that's right.

804
00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:47.639
Or if they were going to do an episode like rejoined. then it was

805
00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:48.840
a massive taboo.

806
00:38:48.900 --> 00:38:52.079
I know it wasn't about same-sex couples, but that was the point

807
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:53.400
they were making, you know?

808
00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:56.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

809
00:38:56.099 --> 00:39:00.539
And, you know, like having 2 very beautiful women kiss on

810
00:39:00.539 --> 00:39:07.019
television is possibly the least daring way that you can get some

811
00:39:07.019 --> 00:39:10.199
same-sex action happening on a show.

812
00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:13.139
But that does show how far we come because now you could do that

813
00:39:13.139 --> 00:39:14.460
and there would be no response.

814
00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:17.219
There were channels refusing to show rejoin.

815
00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:19.559
When it airs far out.

816
00:39:19.619 --> 00:39:20.579
Yeah, yeah.

817
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:23.820
And even that was so tame, so timid.

818
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:25.679
Um, yeah.

819
00:39:25.739 --> 00:39:27.659
I will have to close the set off and everything.

820
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:30.900
Yeah, it was a big deal.

821
00:39:31.619 --> 00:39:35.880
So we have, we, things have moved on and for the best time, you

822
00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:38.940
know, and representation now is in Star Trek.

823
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:41.039
I can't believe people object to it.

824
00:39:41.340 --> 00:39:44.099
Oh, yeah, but I mean, that's happening everywhere.

825
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:48.539
There's a big shit fight on Twitter at the moment because the new

826
00:39:48.539 --> 00:39:52.380
teaser for the little mermaid came out and she's black.

827
00:39:53.099 --> 00:39:54.719
I know.

828
00:39:54.780 --> 00:39:56.280
What about her voice?

829
00:39:56.340 --> 00:39:56.820
Holy crap.

830
00:39:56.880 --> 00:39:57.360
Did you see?

831
00:39:57.360 --> 00:39:57.840
There was what?

832
00:39:57.840 --> 00:39:58.739
I know snow last night.

833
00:39:58.800 --> 00:39:59.760
You see the little gal?

834
00:39:59.820 --> 00:40:03.659
Uh, who...

835
00:40:03.659 --> 00:40:05.340
Yeah, it was somewhat of the same colour.

836
00:40:05.340 --> 00:40:09.000
And she was so excited. gorgeous.

837
00:40:09.059 --> 00:40:14.400
Well, it's the story that Whoopi Goldberg tells, you know, you

838
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:16.380
know, running in out of the room and telling your mother that

839
00:40:16.380 --> 00:40:18.239
there's a black woman on TV.

840
00:40:18.360 --> 00:40:21.239
And she ain't no maid. exactly.

841
00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:26.579
But we just had a scene with 2 women of colour speaking.

842
00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:30.420
You know, like a scene that passes the Bechdel Testin has no white

843
00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:31.199
people in it.

844
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:35.400
And, you know, like that's just what Star Trek does now and what

845
00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:37.320
it should have been doing in the 90s.

846
00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:39.360
Look how gross and terrifying that is.

847
00:40:39.900 --> 00:40:41.579
Yeah, yeah.

848
00:40:41.639 --> 00:40:43.139
Like really visceral.

849
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:44.460
Like...

850
00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:47.400
It's almost a shame, you know. like that they did step back a

851
00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:48.360
little bit, isn't it?

852
00:40:48.420 --> 00:40:48.900
Yeah.

853
00:40:48.900 --> 00:40:51.659
Like, if you're not using it, in series too, suddenly, it's all

854
00:40:51.659 --> 00:40:54.599
about a big, you know, space anomaly or someone from the huge

855
00:40:54.599 --> 00:40:55.980
shells, where like, hey, you know.

856
00:40:56.039 --> 00:41:01.679
And all this sort of nastiness and earthiness is made a little

857
00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:02.099
safer.

858
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:03.659
Yeah.

859
00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:05.639
But I suppose that's what you do, isn't it?

860
00:41:05.699 --> 00:41:07.320
That's what you do when you come back as you test them.

861
00:41:07.380 --> 00:41:08.280
We recalibrate.

862
00:41:08.340 --> 00:41:08.699
Yeah.

863
00:41:08.820 --> 00:41:11.639
You have characters say the word fuck, you know?

864
00:41:11.699 --> 00:41:12.539
Yeah.

865
00:41:12.599 --> 00:41:15.480
So this handsome man here.

866
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:19.920
Which one they're both free handsome?

867
00:41:19.980 --> 00:41:26.519
Oh, they are, but the handsome Terran guy who was clearly known to

868
00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:32.519
Captain Locker before, and this is really terrifically good, and

869
00:41:32.519 --> 00:41:36.360
this is the scene that will eventually turn into the big climactic

870
00:41:36.360 --> 00:41:38.039
scene at the end of the...

871
00:41:38.099 --> 00:41:39.119
Did nor could kill his sister?

872
00:41:39.179 --> 00:41:39.539
Is that right?

873
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:42.360
No, he fucked his sister.

874
00:41:42.420 --> 00:41:43.739
I think.

875
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:45.000
But I don't know.

876
00:41:45.059 --> 00:41:46.260
It's not entirely clear.

877
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:49.440
Because what he says when he comes out of the agoniser, he says

878
00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:53.280
yes, you know, I, because he's saying, say her name, say her name

879
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:56.099
and Gabriel's refusing to do it as if he'd forgotten.

880
00:41:56.159 --> 00:42:00.059
And then he comes out of a thing and says her name was Ava, but

881
00:42:00.059 --> 00:42:02.099
someone better came along or something.

882
00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:03.239
It's so good.

883
00:42:03.300 --> 00:42:05.820
And so he may have let her die.

884
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:10.679
So this, this, I think, is where we know for certain that he's

885
00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:14.340
from the mirror universe, because this is someone from here, who

886
00:42:14.340 --> 00:42:17.820
was a crew member, whom he recognises.

887
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:22.619
He recognises the other guy, the handsome black guy there.

888
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:25.500
Yeah, there were so many women.

889
00:42:25.739 --> 00:42:28.199
It's good to be captain.

890
00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:31.920
See, it's definitely him.

891
00:42:31.980 --> 00:42:34.679
I love how they kill this guy too.

892
00:42:34.739 --> 00:42:36.599
This is super gory as well.

893
00:42:38.099 --> 00:42:41.940
But, you know, we had people, we had Tori from Battlesore, like

894
00:42:41.940 --> 00:42:45.420
Galactica being ripped up by the Tardigrade earlier in the

895
00:42:45.420 --> 00:42:45.659
season.

896
00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:46.679
She deserves it.

897
00:42:46.739 --> 00:42:47.940
So she did.

898
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:48.659
She was horrible.

899
00:42:48.780 --> 00:42:50.579
Watch this guy scream and then explode.

900
00:42:50.940 --> 00:42:54.900
Burn, scream. and then burn everywhere.

901
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:56.760
Yeah, I'm not even sure they do that.

902
00:42:57.059 --> 00:42:59.159
No, I don't think they would.

903
00:43:00.539 --> 00:43:03.719
It is all a bit sombre though this, isn't it?

904
00:43:03.780 --> 00:43:07.019
It's all a bit hour and talky.

905
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:11.159
And I remember at this point in the episode, I was like, is this

906
00:43:11.159 --> 00:43:13.679
ever, is this going to start picking up soon, like?

907
00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:19.199
Well, it's, in fact, the only really fun silly bits are in the

908
00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:23.039
Paul plot, and that's the plot where, which has him really

909
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:25.800
properly realising that his husband's dead.

910
00:43:25.860 --> 00:43:28.500
You know, like it's still not that much fun.

911
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:33.059
Oh, I love how he speaks in Cleon here, and he's using his voc

912
00:43:33.059 --> 00:43:36.420
voice because he's got a higher, more tanner voice when he's vogue

913
00:43:36.420 --> 00:43:39.360
and he starts using that when he speaks to Michael after he's

914
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:39.659
activated.

915
00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:41.280
I have a relationship episode.

916
00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:43.260
Yeah.

917
00:43:43.260 --> 00:43:43.980
The pair of them.

918
00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:47.760
But obviously they just decided in the show, well, we don't, this

919
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:49.320
isn't where we wanted to go with these two.

920
00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:53.820
With um, with Morrell and...

921
00:43:53.820 --> 00:43:55.260
Oh, no, no, Michael's...

922
00:43:55.320 --> 00:43:59.460
Yeah, no, Michael has a real hard time coming to terms with him

923
00:43:59.460 --> 00:44:03.539
and accepting him after it's revealed who he is.

924
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:05.820
That's how weepy season, isn't it?

925
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:06.599
She has a lot.

926
00:44:06.599 --> 00:44:07.199
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

927
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:10.139
A lot of times, yeah, terms with Spock and their relationship and

928
00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:12.119
a lot of things in that season.

929
00:44:12.179 --> 00:44:14.039
Mother, isn't it as well?

930
00:44:14.099 --> 00:44:16.559
Mother's back, yeah, who was...

931
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:20.340
No, I know we said yes, but series 2 of Discovery is someone

932
00:44:20.340 --> 00:44:20.699
else.

933
00:44:20.820 --> 00:44:23.579
Remember, she was sort of tortured and then killed.

934
00:44:23.639 --> 00:44:25.619
Oh, that's awful.

935
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:28.559
Tortured and killed by the Klingons, you know, and then it turns

936
00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:29.280
out it wasn't that.

937
00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:33.539
I mean, at least like they, they, they kill our couple, but at

938
00:44:33.539 --> 00:44:36.179
least they are giving it a little bit of emotion, you know, and

939
00:44:36.179 --> 00:44:36.960
consequence.

940
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:38.699
Yeah.

941
00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:40.500
It could have just been a cheap shock.

942
00:44:40.920 --> 00:44:44.820
And so is it, I can't even remember what the deal is.

943
00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:48.179
Look, I think it was a bit of a cheap shock, but they did pay it.

944
00:44:48.239 --> 00:44:49.920
Yeah, they do pay it.

945
00:44:49.980 --> 00:44:54.480
They still have him do, you know, this episode at least.

946
00:44:54.539 --> 00:44:58.920
And, and Kulba's not here or easy.

947
00:44:58.980 --> 00:45:04.199
He is in the mycelial network in a sense because Paul remembers

948
00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:05.460
him or something.

949
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:11.219
And then he's brought back. it takes a long time.

950
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:14.099
And that's why I kind of think that series 2 is kind of like the

951
00:45:14.099 --> 00:45:15.780
apology tour for series one.

952
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:18.599
I think some of the choices they made in series one.

953
00:45:18.780 --> 00:45:20.460
They shouldn't have walked back on.

954
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:21.780
Oh, okay.

955
00:45:21.780 --> 00:45:25.320
But like the swearing, I want them saying fuck on.

956
00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:27.239
I just want that.

957
00:45:27.300 --> 00:45:29.460
No, I think this was definitely.

958
00:45:29.579 --> 00:45:30.719
But this was a bad mistake.

959
00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:32.219
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

960
00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:33.300
And they walk it back.

961
00:45:33.420 --> 00:45:36.059
I was just watching them then, how the looks they were giving each

962
00:45:36.059 --> 00:45:38.280
other how they were of each other.

963
00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:41.280
It's very natural, isn't it?

964
00:45:41.340 --> 00:45:43.980
It doesn't feel like 2 actors have just come together, you know

965
00:45:43.980 --> 00:45:44.400
this season.

966
00:45:44.820 --> 00:45:49.139
I think they may have known one another before this where they

967
00:45:49.139 --> 00:45:50.880
both in rent or something?

968
00:45:50.940 --> 00:45:51.719
Like, I'm not sure.

969
00:45:51.780 --> 00:45:52.679
I'm not sure.

970
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:54.780
Both on Grindr.

971
00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:56.940
I don't know.

972
00:45:57.000 --> 00:45:57.840
Yeah, that's right.

973
00:45:57.900 --> 00:46:01.079
But both actors are gay as well, which I think is a good thing to

974
00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:01.500
do too.

975
00:46:01.860 --> 00:46:06.119
Do you agree with the Rusty Davies assertion that only gay actors

976
00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:07.320
should play gay characters?

977
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:13.619
No, but I can understand why you would choose uh, for something

978
00:46:13.619 --> 00:46:19.019
important to, you, you might choose to only hire gay people to

979
00:46:19.019 --> 00:46:23.940
play gay actors, to play gay people.

980
00:46:24.059 --> 00:46:28.500
And I also think that, you know, like if gay characters are being

981
00:46:28.500 --> 00:46:33.360
written, and if gay actors have difficulty getting cast, then I

982
00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:36.420
think that it's wrong to give those roles to straight people, I

983
00:46:36.420 --> 00:46:37.139
think, you know.

984
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:38.579
But I don't think it's a problem.

985
00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:43.440
I've seen fantastic performances by straight men playing gay

986
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:44.099
characters.

987
00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:47.760
Even in Love Victor, for instance, a couple of the boys who are

988
00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:51.599
gay in that, I think, are very good, despite the fact they're

989
00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:52.679
straight, and I don't think that's a problem.

990
00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:55.980
Conversely, I've seen gay actors give incredible performances.

991
00:46:56.039 --> 00:46:58.019
They're straight characters, such as Russell Poley.

992
00:46:58.019 --> 00:46:59.760
Yeah.

993
00:46:59.940 --> 00:47:04.139
So they kiss there and now this plot is over with?

994
00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:04.619
Is that right?

995
00:47:05.159 --> 00:47:14.940
So now, yeah, but so this, though, is on the current, this is, so

996
00:47:14.940 --> 00:47:18.059
yeah, that's that plot over with, but he will obviously be back, I

997
00:47:18.059 --> 00:47:20.219
think, till he's still back.

998
00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:23.159
Okay, automatically about hairs, hairs straight.

999
00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:26.099
Let's have a scene with your show.

1000
00:47:26.099 --> 00:47:28.500
In the very universe. can't remember.

1001
00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:30.119
I don't so that would be amazing.

1002
00:47:31.380 --> 00:47:34.199
Man, man, the actress who makes silly.

1003
00:47:34.260 --> 00:47:36.000
She just owns herself, didn't she?

1004
00:47:36.059 --> 00:47:37.199
She's incredible.

1005
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:37.800
So good.

1006
00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:40.320
Yeah, she really is great.

1007
00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:41.460
Oh, look at this, though.

1008
00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:42.599
Like the forest has gone big.

1009
00:47:42.659 --> 00:47:42.960
Yeah.

1010
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:44.340
Is that the mice?

1011
00:47:44.340 --> 00:47:45.300
I saw that before.

1012
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:48.659
Well, no, that's their spore supplies, but they've obviously been

1013
00:47:48.659 --> 00:47:52.739
affected by the mycelial network by that red thing that we saw

1014
00:47:52.739 --> 00:47:55.860
creeping through the corridors. stuff like it's real, you know.

1015
00:47:56.400 --> 00:48:00.119
Well, that's the other thing too, that he's just mental.

1016
00:48:00.179 --> 00:48:03.900
Like the mycelial network is such a strange thing.

1017
00:48:03.960 --> 00:48:06.840
And, you know, there were people kind of losing their shit about

1018
00:48:06.840 --> 00:48:09.780
it at the time because it was so unscientific in a way that they

1019
00:48:09.780 --> 00:48:12.300
sort of somehow felt warp drive, wasn't it?

1020
00:48:12.360 --> 00:48:14.639
And beaming technology.

1021
00:48:14.699 --> 00:48:16.500
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

1022
00:48:16.619 --> 00:48:18.420
That's true, but I'm sorry.

1023
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:22.019
There is this bizarre thing in any science fiction franchise where

1024
00:48:22.019 --> 00:48:25.860
one magical science fiction concept is more plausible than

1025
00:48:25.860 --> 00:48:26.400
another.

1026
00:48:28.500 --> 00:48:29.280
The moon's an egg.

1027
00:48:29.340 --> 00:48:31.559
I can accept a time travelling phone box.

1028
00:48:31.619 --> 00:48:33.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1029
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:36.059
Well, I mean, this, you know, it's a subspace realm full of

1030
00:48:36.059 --> 00:48:36.840
mushrooms.

1031
00:48:36.900 --> 00:48:37.739
I don't know.

1032
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:42.179
I feel the need to point out there are only 4 minutes left to go

1033
00:48:42.179 --> 00:48:46.139
and we are in no way approaching a climax this episode.

1034
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:51.119
Oh, no, I think, well, so they engineer a climax out of this, the

1035
00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:54.480
interchange between Gabriel and that other guy.

1036
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:57.780
And I think it ends in a pretty interesting way.

1037
00:48:57.900 --> 00:49:01.860
But yes, like we said at the start. doesn't really go anywhere.

1038
00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:06.300
Some people have had the same issue with Picard series 2, that

1039
00:49:06.300 --> 00:49:09.300
sort of in the 2nd half of the season.

1040
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:13.559
There was just a lot of inching along of plots and nothing really

1041
00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:15.360
being resolved.

1042
00:49:15.719 --> 00:49:20.340
Yeah, I suppose it's what approach you prefer, maybe, isn't it?

1043
00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:24.900
Well, I think that good serialisation is what Discovery Series 4

1044
00:49:24.900 --> 00:49:28.260
does at the end, where each episode follows logically from the

1045
00:49:28.260 --> 00:49:31.139
previous one, but each has its own identity and its own art.

1046
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:32.760
Oh, I think something's achieved.

1047
00:49:32.820 --> 00:49:35.940
Yeah, I think last idea is not that really well as well.

1048
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:39.179
Yeah, yeah, but it's the beginning of series 6 sort of thing.

1049
00:49:39.239 --> 00:49:40.619
You go for place to place.

1050
00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:43.980
Even in that last 10 episode arc of DS9, I think that some of

1051
00:49:43.980 --> 00:49:45.179
that...

1052
00:49:45.179 --> 00:49:50.219
It is literally just moving from A to B. So this is Michael

1053
00:49:50.219 --> 00:49:54.000
discovering that Gabriel is from the Mirror Universe, because

1054
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:57.420
everyone in the Mirror Universe reacts to light the way that

1055
00:49:57.420 --> 00:50:00.360
Gabriel does and Gabriel had said that it was because of something

1056
00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:02.280
that happened to him on the Buran.

1057
00:50:02.340 --> 00:50:07.199
And so now he's pulling some crap in order to get himself out of

1058
00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:11.400
the agoniser booth and now we're interacting between those 2

1059
00:50:11.400 --> 00:50:14.159
scenes and Michael's discovery that Gabriel is from the mirror

1060
00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:14.639
universe.

1061
00:50:14.699 --> 00:50:17.159
I mean, I think at this point...

1062
00:50:17.219 --> 00:50:18.059
Look at this, look at this.

1063
00:50:18.119 --> 00:50:22.800
And then he just, he, uh, one of those things, he defibrillates

1064
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:26.460
the guy's head and like, it's...

1065
00:50:26.519 --> 00:50:27.059
Yeah.

1066
00:50:27.059 --> 00:50:33.780
Although I was from thinking, you know, keep up burning.

1067
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:34.679
It a bit obvious.

1068
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:35.820
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1069
00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:40.019
But that's, you know, the, oh, and this, Ava, this is so good.

1070
00:50:40.019 --> 00:50:42.059
And look at him twitching it so gross.

1071
00:50:42.119 --> 00:50:44.579
And then the very final shot.

1072
00:50:44.699 --> 00:50:47.340
He's so, like, really bad.

1073
00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:48.360
Look at this.

1074
00:50:48.360 --> 00:50:48.780
Look at this.

1075
00:50:49.380 --> 00:50:54.480
He just smashes the guy's head like he literally just like stamps

1076
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:54.960
his head.

1077
00:50:55.079 --> 00:50:57.480
I think there's no feedback on the ground.

1078
00:50:57.539 --> 00:51:00.000
Like law car is now going to exit the series.

1079
00:51:00.059 --> 00:51:01.920
How can we redeem him?

1080
00:51:01.980 --> 00:51:03.360
No.

1081
00:51:03.420 --> 00:51:06.000
There's Lord Ealing in the credits there.

1082
00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:07.920
Yeah, yeah.

1083
00:51:07.980 --> 00:51:08.940
You think, you know what?

1084
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:11.159
There were there were fun individual moments in that.

1085
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:15.059
Yeah, but...

1086
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:16.260
Yeah.

1087
00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:20.699
And, you know, like we rolled, this would, I think, have to be the

1088
00:51:20.699 --> 00:51:23.699
weakest episode of the season, probably.

1089
00:51:23.940 --> 00:51:27.659
Yeah, I still think that's the phenomena, you know, and I know you

1090
00:51:27.659 --> 00:51:28.500
Megan, disagree on.

1091
00:51:28.559 --> 00:51:29.940
I think the finale is good.

1092
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:32.880
I think the finale is properly good and it does something and goes

1093
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:33.420
somewhere.

1094
00:51:33.480 --> 00:51:36.239
It's an episode about something where this one isn't.

1095
00:51:36.360 --> 00:51:38.400
We've had this discussion, haven't we?

1096
00:51:38.460 --> 00:51:41.639
Where, you know, you're all for, you know, going for the ethics of

1097
00:51:41.639 --> 00:51:44.280
the federation, whereas I'm all for abandoning them and doing

1098
00:51:44.280 --> 00:51:44.820
terrible things.

1099
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:47.159
They should have bombed that Klingon home world, I'm telling you.

1100
00:51:47.219 --> 00:51:53.219
No, but I mean, but it's the political message, you know, it's the

1101
00:51:53.219 --> 00:51:57.000
political thing that it's saying, you know, that we need to be

1102
00:51:57.000 --> 00:51:58.320
sticking to our values.

1103
00:51:58.380 --> 00:52:01.619
We need to be doing the right thing and that the right thing is

1104
00:52:01.619 --> 00:52:07.440
love and inclusion and diversity and honour and, you know, and it

1105
00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:08.579
gets cheesy, that final.

1106
00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:10.679
So it is a little bit overall.

1107
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:13.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1108
00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:17.519
But, like, they've earned it, I think, by that point.

1109
00:52:17.579 --> 00:52:19.980
And a lot of people were wondering.

1110
00:52:20.099 --> 00:52:21.239
I think the audio's at large.

1111
00:52:21.300 --> 00:52:23.639
They needed to hear that at the end of this season.

1112
00:52:23.699 --> 00:52:26.340
There was to be some very strange things with Starfre.

1113
00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:27.960
That's right Yeah, yeah.

1114
00:52:28.019 --> 00:52:30.480
And people were saying it's not like Star Trek it doesn't adhere

1115
00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:33.780
to the ideals and, you know, that was essentially the point.

1116
00:52:33.840 --> 00:52:35.639
People still say that, you know.

1117
00:52:35.699 --> 00:52:39.599
Even after series 2 with the Enterprise of Pike and Spock.

1118
00:52:39.659 --> 00:52:40.739
And all of that.

1119
00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:48.059
I think that Kurtzman Trek doesn't want to do what 90s Trek does

1120
00:52:48.059 --> 00:52:50.159
which is in places.

1121
00:52:50.219 --> 00:52:55.800
It just says Star Trek ideals are naive and that they don't

1122
00:52:55.800 --> 00:53:03.420
survive contact with real proper evil or real proper peril.

1123
00:53:03.480 --> 00:53:07.440
And that's what those deep space. 9 episodes do.

1124
00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:11.519
I think they always return to it, but I think it's examined and

1125
00:53:11.519 --> 00:53:12.900
sometimes they say, do you know what?

1126
00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:15.840
We've got to make the wrong call to get this done.

1127
00:53:15.900 --> 00:53:17.400
And I know you don't agree with that.

1128
00:53:17.460 --> 00:53:18.300
I love it.

1129
00:53:18.300 --> 00:53:20.820
No, because. the situations are made up.

1130
00:53:20.880 --> 00:53:23.519
They, you know, they don't have to make them be in a situation

1131
00:53:23.519 --> 00:53:25.079
where they have to make that call.

1132
00:53:25.139 --> 00:53:28.920
Yeah, so you decide not to put them in the situation where they

1133
00:53:28.920 --> 00:53:30.000
don't have to make the call.

1134
00:53:30.059 --> 00:53:34.320
Or you say, look, yes, we're going to adhere to these ideals

1135
00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:36.840
because they're important, but they're going to be costly tours

1136
00:53:36.840 --> 00:53:37.980
for some reason.

1137
00:53:38.039 --> 00:53:39.179
And that's an interesting thing to say.

1138
00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:43.440
I prefer it when they say that these ideals actually can be a

1139
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:47.400
little bit dangerous. liking something like Valiant, where you

1140
00:53:47.400 --> 00:53:50.699
have those horrible kids that think they're the best and the best

1141
00:53:50.699 --> 00:53:53.099
and think they can do anything, and then they come up against

1142
00:53:53.099 --> 00:53:57.059
something that they literally cannot defeat, and they all end up

1143
00:53:57.059 --> 00:54:00.360
dead, and I, it's dark as hell.

1144
00:54:00.420 --> 00:54:03.780
But I think actually, yeah, that's an interesting point to make.

1145
00:54:03.840 --> 00:54:06.480
Yeah, but I always wonder whether the valiant so much about

1146
00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:10.139
Starfleet ideals as it is about critiquing just that ridiculous

1147
00:54:10.139 --> 00:54:12.900
thing that happens on Star Trek all the time where everyone says

1148
00:54:12.900 --> 00:54:17.579
that their crew is the best in the league. you know, like every

1149
00:54:17.579 --> 00:54:21.059
bloody ship, the Cerritos, you know, is the best of the Kelly

1150
00:54:21.059 --> 00:54:22.079
class tubes.

1151
00:54:22.139 --> 00:54:24.960
You know, they're all kind of like that and that's what that's

1152
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:25.440
making fun of.

1153
00:54:25.500 --> 00:54:27.539
Well, you know, the only...

1154
00:54:27.599 --> 00:54:30.539
They can have their cake and eat it because eventually they'll go

1155
00:54:30.539 --> 00:54:32.760
back to their regular university. they take Giorgio with them.

1156
00:54:32.820 --> 00:54:35.639
She's saying, right, do all these terrible things that we do in

1157
00:54:35.639 --> 00:54:37.500
the Middle Universe. you know, that'll get you out of this

1158
00:54:37.500 --> 00:54:38.880
situation and they reject that.

1159
00:54:38.940 --> 00:54:41.940
But actually, we've just had 4 episodes in the mirror universe

1160
00:54:41.940 --> 00:54:43.260
where we can just...

1161
00:54:43.260 --> 00:54:47.159
We've got to enjoy all the walls and stay, fuck the ethics and

1162
00:54:47.159 --> 00:54:47.760
let's have fun.

1163
00:54:48.059 --> 00:54:52.559
Because the interesting thing is that the real pleasure of the

1164
00:54:52.559 --> 00:54:55.860
Mirror Universe, particularly in Deep Sace 9, is just getting our

1165
00:54:55.860 --> 00:54:59.519
regular actors to do something fun to let their hair down and have

1166
00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:02.400
fun and be silly and do silly things.

1167
00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:06.300
But that's actually not really that much of a feature of this.

1168
00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:08.639
This, you know, Giorgio's dead.

1169
00:55:08.699 --> 00:55:12.599
Yeah, given similar-ish performance is, oh, man.

1170
00:55:12.659 --> 00:55:17.820
Yeah, but most of the people here are our crew, like the whole

1171
00:55:17.820 --> 00:55:19.380
discovery is in this universe.

1172
00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:22.199
It's not like mirror, mirror, where some people from the

1173
00:55:22.199 --> 00:55:26.639
transporter pad end up in basically a mirror universe version of

1174
00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:29.940
the enterprise, the entire ships here, most of our crew are all

1175
00:55:29.940 --> 00:55:30.300
here.

1176
00:55:30.360 --> 00:55:34.679
And so most of the people that we see, it's just Laura and Giorgio

1177
00:55:34.679 --> 00:55:35.039
isn't it?

1178
00:55:35.099 --> 00:55:37.079
and Stammets and that's about it.

1179
00:55:37.139 --> 00:55:40.860
And, you know, Lorke has been a mirror universe version of himself

1180
00:55:40.860 --> 00:55:41.219
all along.

1181
00:55:41.340 --> 00:55:43.860
Oh, yeah, yeah.

1182
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:48.360
Like, I really, really like this 1st season of Discovery a lot.

1183
00:55:48.420 --> 00:55:52.920
And I think maybe series 4 is better, but I think what's fun about

1184
00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:57.059
this season is just seeing where they didn't go, seeing some

1185
00:55:57.059 --> 00:56:00.059
things that Star Trek seems unlikely to try again.

1186
00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:00.960
Yeah.

1187
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:04.980
I, I, I, I don't really like it very much.

1188
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:07.860
But I do think it's bold.

1189
00:56:07.920 --> 00:56:11.639
And I like the fact that it's doing stuff that they don't do

1190
00:56:11.639 --> 00:56:12.300
anywhere else.

1191
00:56:12.420 --> 00:56:18.840
It has its unique identity. and it's worth watching for that alone

1192
00:56:18.840 --> 00:56:19.440
I think.

1193
00:56:19.500 --> 00:56:20.940
And actually, I think you're right.

1194
00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:22.019
I think in the 2nd series.

1195
00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:27.179
It's a little less interesting because it's a little safer.

1196
00:56:27.239 --> 00:56:28.619
Yeah.

1197
00:56:28.679 --> 00:56:32.519
Well, I also think this one is very political in a way that series

1198
00:56:32.519 --> 00:56:33.780
2 walks back.

1199
00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:37.619
And then series 3 just kind of wholeheartedly goes, yes, you know

1200
00:56:37.619 --> 00:56:41.219
this is a post-federation world where we've got to teach people

1201
00:56:41.219 --> 00:56:42.239
about the federation.

1202
00:56:42.300 --> 00:56:46.440
It's all about federation ethics, but in series one is about that

1203
00:56:46.440 --> 00:56:48.179
but in a much more interesting way.

1204
00:56:48.239 --> 00:56:50.460
I think, and it does say things.

1205
00:56:50.519 --> 00:56:52.380
As I said, at the end of last week's episode.

1206
00:56:52.440 --> 00:56:57.360
It's about, you know, America being at war for 20 years after 9

1207
00:56:56.519 --> 00:56:57.360
11.

1208
00:56:57.719 --> 00:57:02.639
And what do we turn into what happens when we kind of abandon our

1209
00:57:02.639 --> 00:57:04.440
liberal or democratic ideas?

1210
00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:09.420
And so you get this sort of crazed hallucinatory Trump world

1211
00:57:09.420 --> 00:57:10.860
Mirror Universe, America.

1212
00:57:10.920 --> 00:57:12.539
And that's what this is about.

1213
00:57:12.599 --> 00:57:16.199
Oh, the scary thing is, is we go to this mirror universe, which is

1214
00:57:16.199 --> 00:57:17.820
Trump World, and that's where we were heading.

1215
00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:20.159
It's absolutely fucking terrifying.

1216
00:57:26.219 --> 00:57:28.920
All right, it's the end of the episode and so we are here to

1217
00:57:28.920 --> 00:57:32.219
choose what we're going to be watching next week.

1218
00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:39.119
It was my go last week, which means it's your go now, Joe. So what

1219
00:57:39.119 --> 00:57:40.320
series are we choosing from?

1220
00:57:40.380 --> 00:57:44.579
Before I press the button, do you realise how many separate tabs

1221
00:57:44.579 --> 00:57:45.239
there are here?

1222
00:57:45.300 --> 00:57:46.980
To choose from?

1223
00:57:47.039 --> 00:57:50.219
Is there 12, 13, 13?

1224
00:57:51.000 --> 00:57:54.239
13 arms of the Star Trek.

1225
00:57:54.300 --> 00:57:56.519
And because I'm feeling lazy.

1226
00:57:56.579 --> 00:57:57.719
I'm gonna include them all.

1227
00:57:57.780 --> 00:58:00.900
You know, I actually had to add the 13th of them because when we

1228
00:58:00.900 --> 00:58:04.199
started this podcast, Strange New Worlds wasn't a thing yet.

1229
00:58:04.260 --> 00:58:08.699
So the Randomiser usually had 12, but I've added one.

1230
00:58:09.360 --> 00:58:12.599
Well, I desperate to press his butt.

1231
00:58:12.659 --> 00:58:13.199
May I?

1232
00:58:13.320 --> 00:58:18.539
Your random Star Trek Voyager episode is, oh, no.

1233
00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:20.940
Season 7.

1234
00:58:20.940 --> 00:58:26.039
Episodes 25 and 26, end game.

1235
00:58:26.099 --> 00:58:26.760
You have to do it.

1236
00:58:26.820 --> 00:58:27.780
It's a finale.

1237
00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:29.340
You have to do it.

1238
00:58:29.340 --> 00:58:30.960
No, that's a series for now.

1239
00:58:31.019 --> 00:58:31.800
We just have to do it.

1240
00:58:31.860 --> 00:58:34.679
I know we've just done a arable as well.

1241
00:58:34.739 --> 00:58:39.059
Yeah, yeah, we've done a big 2 part of just last week, but I just

1242
00:58:39.059 --> 00:58:41.699
think there's no avoiding it if we've rolled that. have to do it.

1243
00:58:41.760 --> 00:58:43.320
Have we done a series opener?

1244
00:58:43.380 --> 00:58:45.360
Oh, yeah, well, we did Stranger Worlds.

1245
00:58:46.139 --> 00:58:48.000
Because we cheated.

1246
00:58:48.059 --> 00:58:48.900
Of course we did.

1247
00:58:48.900 --> 00:58:49.380
Let's do it.

1248
00:58:49.440 --> 00:58:55.380
I think we have to do it I mean, We could watch this and yeah, it

1249
00:58:55.380 --> 00:58:58.199
could revolutionise what we think about Star Trek Voyager.

1250
00:58:58.260 --> 00:58:59.820
Well, actually...

1251
00:58:59.820 --> 00:59:02.760
They were heading to this random climax all along.

1252
00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:03.960
You know?

1253
00:59:04.019 --> 00:59:07.800
I mean, we did just do a series one.

1254
00:59:07.800 --> 00:59:09.000
Yeah, which was really good.

1255
00:59:09.059 --> 00:59:13.920
And this is all about getting on, to be fair, just via every

1256
00:59:13.920 --> 00:59:15.900
cliche in the TNG book.

1257
00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:18.239
Yeah, I actually don't remember it all that well and it's possible

1258
00:59:18.239 --> 00:59:19.559
I've only ever seen it once.

1259
00:59:19.679 --> 00:59:22.920
I'm not sure we've ever done the 1st press of the bar.

1260
00:59:22.980 --> 00:59:23.760
We have.

1261
00:59:23.820 --> 00:59:24.119
We have.

1262
00:59:24.179 --> 00:59:25.559
Oh, okay.

1263
00:59:25.619 --> 00:59:26.760
I think we do it.

1264
00:59:26.820 --> 00:59:30.539
Nathan, saddle up because we're going to watch Endgame.

1265
00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:31.380
Brilliant.

1266
00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:43.860
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford

1267
00:59:43.860 --> 00:59:45.000
and Nathan Bottomley.

1268
00:59:45.059 --> 00:59:48.539
We're online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com where you can find

1269
00:59:48.539 --> 00:59:51.000
links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.

1270
00:59:51.059 --> 00:59:54.780
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceron, and the theme was

1271
00:59:54.780 --> 00:59:56.340
composed by Cameron Lamb.

1272
00:59:56.400 --> 01:00:00.599
This episode was recorded on the 17th of September 2022 and

1273
01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:02.460
released on the 23rd of September.

1274
01:00:02.519 --> 01:00:05.579
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager.

1275
01:00:05.639 --> 01:00:06.360
End game.

1276
01:00:22.199 --> 01:00:23.579
Okay.

1277
01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:25.500
Okay.

1278
01:00:25.559 --> 01:00:27.000
Should we do it?

1279
01:00:27.059 --> 01:00:27.840
Mm hmm.

1280
01:00:27.900 --> 01:00:34.920
Did you, we had quite a long, um, Did you hear the long, uh, tag

1281
01:00:34.920 --> 01:00:35.880
for the last episode?

1282
01:00:35.940 --> 01:00:38.940
No, I am halfway through Shadows and Simples.

1283
01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:40.079
So what I'm doing...

1284
01:00:40.079 --> 01:00:41.280
I get the train back forth.

1285
01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:42.539
I'm listening.

1286
01:00:42.599 --> 01:00:44.219
Yeah, that's right.

1287
01:00:44.280 --> 01:00:47.400
I mustn't use it longer than that because my train train is only

1288
01:00:47.400 --> 01:00:48.059
15 minutes.

1289
01:00:48.119 --> 01:00:49.260
Yeah.

1290
01:00:49.320 --> 01:00:50.340
Yeah, so it's funny.

1291
01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:54.539
I think that, you know, with a big podcast that's 2 hours long

1292
01:00:54.539 --> 01:00:58.739
that I don't mind that, like, I have a few podcasts that do that

1293
01:00:58.739 --> 01:00:59.579
all the time.

1294
01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:02.760
And it says, well, I'm going to just listen to it in bits.

1295
01:01:02.820 --> 01:01:03.539
It going to be fine.

1296
01:01:03.659 --> 01:01:08.219
But the big, long tag is us talking about vaulting ambition and

1297
01:01:08.219 --> 01:01:09.599
smart style.

1298
01:01:09.599 --> 01:01:11.159
Like afterwards.

1299
01:01:11.219 --> 01:01:13.139
So it's it's a thing.

1300
01:01:13.199 --> 01:01:17.039
It's a little bit like an FDE tag where it's kind of like I'm sick

1301
01:01:17.039 --> 01:01:20.219
of editing and this bit's good and I don't know what to do with it

1302
01:01:20.219 --> 01:01:23.280
so I'm going to bung it after the closing credits and only lightly

1303
01:01:23.280 --> 01:01:23.940
editing.

1304
01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:24.719
Oh, no, exactly.

1305
01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:26.340
I told her which one it was, if it was St.

1306
01:01:26.340 --> 01:01:27.719
John or accident, where you went.

1307
01:01:27.780 --> 01:01:29.519
That's the tack.