WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-01 at 21:16:06

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Hey, Joe. Hi.

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So, who thought we would be back aboard Voyager so soon?

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I know, right?

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In season one territory as well.

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Yeah.

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Potentially dodgy.

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Actually, it's quite the reverse, isn't it?

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Yeah, I was hugely surprised.

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I knew that I liked Cesca and so this is an episode brought to you

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by the Martha Hackett Appreciation Society.

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She really she's incredibly great.

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Do you remember it was that Romulan in Dig Space 9?

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Oh, I can picture her.

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She appeared in the search part one and she was supposed to be a

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regular on DS9 and then the role of Cesca came up.

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They poached her for Voyager.

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So we've got an even better role for you.

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And she's really good.

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She's really great.

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She is terrific.

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I think for me watching this.

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It reminded me that the Voyager premise was interesting.

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And not just kind of, oh, you know, there's McKee so we can have

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fights and stuff like that.

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But, you know, they're stranded somewhere.

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They don't know anyone.

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They're surrounded by enemies, their supplies are limited.

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And there's a lot of people out there who are dissatisfied with

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the decision that Janeway made to strand them there, kind of

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deliberately.

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And I think it's a premise that really informs this episode and

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makes it really good.

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I said to you, when we very 1st started talking about Voyager, was

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that this was a premise with potential, that you watch Caretaker

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and you say, wow, this has got legs.

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They can really run with this.

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Now, admittedly, it was Battlestar Galactica that ran with the

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premise and Voyager, essentially, after series 2 went for, let's

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do a load of, you know, TNG light episodes.

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Yeah.

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But there are a couple of episodes in series one and there are a

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couple of episodes in series 2 that really lean into this premise

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of being stuck out in the wilderness and descent amongst the crew

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and the idea that they do need to make alliances with people in

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order to survive out here.

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And this episode.

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This is one of 2 back-to-back episodes.

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I said this at the tag at the in the last episode.

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You got Prime Factors, which is about acquiring technology to

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escape the Delta Quadrant back to the Alpha Quadrant and that

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going horribly wrong.

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And Cesca's a big part of that.

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Cesca's the person that basically says, no, I don't care if Jane

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Way saying, no, we're going to go down and steal it.

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And she convinces Balana Torres to go down there and get it.

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But the twist of that one is that Chewbox got there 1st and he's

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like, no, I'm going down to get it.

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And then he gives up fantastic reasons as to why he did that in a

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brilliant scene with K-Moll group.

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Sorry, I digress.

61
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No, no, no, I want to just say one thing.

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Those aliens in prime factors are later all assimilated by the

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Borg as we discover in Picard season one.

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No, for real, happy ending.

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Oh my god.

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Because that man, that man in that episode, right?

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So annoying.

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It's like...

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I've got to speak to my government, Captain.

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You see, he talks in this very strange way.

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Yeah, yeah.

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The way she says when she gives him a gift from Voyager.

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She goes, I'm going to give you a gift.

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Pecan pie.

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Honestly.

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I hope we can make any line of absolute.

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Anyway.

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But that leans into the premise.

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And then this one does too.

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This is about a traitor on Voyager that's made contact with the

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Kazon, and I think this is the 1st time the Kazon are in it since

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caretaker as well.

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Oh okay.

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Yeah.

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And it's a big mystery.

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Well, I mean, much of a mystery.

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Originally, this episode was got to be called Cesca.

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Do you know that?

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Ah, that would have given it away. would have blown, it would have

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been like a, you know, a Pyro episode, a Pyro story with the

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killer of the title.

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You know, it's a bit daft.

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But the suspense of there's somebody in our ranks that's working

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against us.

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It works really, really well in this episode.

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And I think there are enough layers and there's enough sort of red

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herring. to make the payoff very satisfying.

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I have to say that I had watched this before.

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Obviously, I've watched all of Voyager.

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Mostly back in the day.

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I haven't revisited a lot of episodes since then.

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And I had kind of forgotten the twist and it worked on me and it

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was a bit of a relief.

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I just thought, oh, Chakota, you're being a massive dumbass.

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What's the point of view?

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And then it turns out that they were a step ahead.

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And in a way, it has the same sort of resolution as counterpoint

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where we see kind of Janeway apparently defeated only to discover

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that she's actually already sorted things out.

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And so the same thing happens here and it's really satisfying, I

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think.

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Well, it's more satisfying because she goes, like, wonderful

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moment.

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Yeah, when she utterly condemns Janeway Chakotay and the

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Federation in one amazing spot.

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But what is very unvoyager like is how they set this up.

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So Cesca's been in 4 episodes before this.

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Yep.

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And that's not live Voyager to kind of sit on a surprise for that

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long.

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And Carey, who is the other person that's implicated in this

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episode.

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In an episode earlier in the season, it's him and Blam Torres, via

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the chief engineer position, but there's like a whole subplot

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about it, and then obviously he loses out to her.

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So you can actually buy into the idea that he might have done it.

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So that's been set up as well.

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So they're using a lot of stuff that they've already kind of

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embedded in the season to give this very satisfying power.

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They don't do this at all.

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Sort of post-series 2.

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They do not, they don't do long form storytelling like this at

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all.

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It is just sort of one stand loan after another.

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Yeah, it's a bit of a shame.

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It's the pillar effect.

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I'm telling you, I know I talk about Michael Pillar a lot, but he

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had a big hand in this episode and he had a big hand in

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structuring series one and series two, which is where the sort of

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the big arcs are in Voyager.

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And he's very, very proud of this episode.

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So is Rick Berman, but Jerry Taylor, interestingly.

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She didn't like it?

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She's quoted as saying, I thought it was okay.

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Wow.

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Whereas the next episode, which is a comedy episode about the

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doctor playing Beowulf, she's quoted as saying was absolutely

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fantastic.

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So you can see where her head is, is that she's she's thinking

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what the audience wants and the way TV is going, is where it was

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10 years ago. sort of these standalone, fun, family friendly sort

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of Star Trek.

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Whereas Pillar is trying to push this show in a more interesting

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direction, a more sort of dynamic storytelling direction.

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And you've got the 2 of them fighting here.

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So in series one and 2 of Voyager, you get a mix of really

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interesting sort of experiments and terribly bland standalones.

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Yeah, I mean, if you think about Star Trek or Star Trek, the Next

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Generation or Strange New Worlds.

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Their premises there's a Starfleet ship that is going from planet

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to planet doing things.

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And it's a really light premise and it just means we can do Star

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Trek episodes.

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But Voyager starts with a much heavier premise than that.

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And so does Deep Space Nine.

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You know, they're set in specific places with people who've

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undergone a particular kind of thing, which makes them both

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different from just a normal Star Trek show.

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And what we get here is a kind of battle between are we a Star

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Trek show or are we a show set in the Star Trek universe?

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And the great thing about Voyager, I think, as a premise is it can

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do both.

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And what it decides to do is just throw away the premise

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eventually.

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And I think that's a shame.

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And you've got Deep Space 9, you know, on the other side, on the

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other network, amassing this massive cast of secondary characters

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creating an interesting world, doing things with the premise and

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exploring things.

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And Voyager throws that away.

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And in a way, I wonder if it's inevitable or not.

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Because I certainly remember at the time. us thinking, well, what

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happens?

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Aren't they going to move out of K's on Space, they're a ship

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that's voyaging, they're going somewhere.

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And maybe that was inevitable that this particular threat goes

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away.

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And certainly it seems satisfying when they deal with them when we

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move out of Kazon space altogether and start meeting the Boma and

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stuff like that.

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But, you know, do you remember the Beaumont Arc?

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That was riveting, wasn't it?

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Yeah. the episode where they all had to dress up as Beaumar and

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put Waco hangers around the reds.

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Oh, that was amazing.

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Terrific stuff.

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But, you know, like when you look back at Voyager, I think the

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problem ends up not being so much that they lean into doing Star

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Trek, but that, it's just not as well done as it could have been.

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And under Michael Pillar, even if we moved away from the Kazon, we

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would have found more interesting arcs and more complex things and

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maybe an attempt to make the ship seem a bit more lived in as

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well.

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But what Pillar was doing, he was starting to amass a number of

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like reoccurring characters, like Cesca, like colour, like Pseudo

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the serial killer.

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And I think that would have continued.

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But obviously, he left and they wiped everybody out and se levi.

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It's a bit of a double-sided coin, Voyager, isn't it?

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Because like to walk away from the premise means that it's

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exciting because you get a new threat. like the ball come along or

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the hierogen.

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But you don't amass that sort of backstory and continuity.

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There's nothing to play about with.

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You're constantly resetting all the time.

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So it's just, it doesn't have the substance or the depth of

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something like DS9 or even TNG.

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Yeah, I mean, TNG doesn't have a massive kind of cast of semi

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regulars really, certainly not to the extent that DS9 doesn't.

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More than you think, you know, if you look at it, it's more than

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you think.

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Well, I mean, we get Samantha and Naomi Wildman eventually and we

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get the born kiddies and stuff.

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So there are, you know, well, yeah, I know, great, eh?

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So I guess there's that, but there isn't really an attempt to deal

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with what it's like to be stranded, you know.

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And here there is.

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Yeah, that's such a shame.

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And like I said to you on our chat that this is one of a handful

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of episodes that is uniquely Voyager.

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Like this could not be any other Star Trek show.

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And I think there's probably as many episodes of DS9.

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Like DS9, probably about 2 thirds are uniquely DS9, you know?

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And Voyager is probably about 15, 10, 15 episodes, maybe.

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And most of them are in the 1st 2 series, either needle, um, oh

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good, God, help me out now.

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Basics, part one is uniquely Voyager.

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And then sort of in latter seasons, you get the odd one, like

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timeless, where they're stranded on the ice planet.

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That's one where they're trying to go home and using technology

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goes horribly wrong, but they're few and far between, aren't

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they?

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Well, yeah, and eventually I think probably the whole bulk of that

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arc is shouldered by Dwight Schultz and Marina in the semi-regular

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episodes that vary.

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Yeah, that's another one.

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And like those are fun, but we never really get the sense because

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it's just going to be a Starfleet crew and they're all going to be

249
00:12:24.059 --> 00:12:27.840
the best of the best and, you know, none of them feels homesick or

250
00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:28.379
anything like that.

251
00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:32.460
So we never really, really get a proper feel for what the premise

252
00:12:32.460 --> 00:12:33.120
could have been.

253
00:12:33.179 --> 00:12:37.980
And in a way, I ended up thinking that maybe we're in the Delta

254
00:12:37.980 --> 00:12:42.059
Quadrant just to get out of Deep Space 9's way so that Deep Space

255
00:12:42.059 --> 00:12:45.899
9 can do things that don't affect Voyager and vice versa.

256
00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:49.860
I was reading about the conception of Voyager this morning and

257
00:12:49.860 --> 00:12:52.559
they're quoted as saying, well, we need to do something new.

258
00:12:52.620 --> 00:12:56.460
We just can't do next generation again. ironic.

259
00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:59.340
So let's go to a completely new region of space.

260
00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:01.500
And they said they wanted to tap into like the original series

261
00:13:01.500 --> 00:13:04.559
where they're on that five-year mission and they were going out

262
00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:06.960
and exploring space for the 1st time and this, you know, that's

263
00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:09.059
what the Delta Quadrant is. a brand new region of space.

264
00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:12.299
But then they did go and make a load of TNG episodes.

265
00:13:12.360 --> 00:13:12.600
Yeah.

266
00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:13.919
Yeah.

267
00:13:13.980 --> 00:13:15.299
Yeah, no.

268
00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:18.059
I think when they realised the ratings, you know, they weren't

269
00:13:18.059 --> 00:13:18.360
holding.

270
00:13:18.419 --> 00:13:21.000
They were like, well, I guess people just want more TNG.

271
00:13:21.059 --> 00:13:21.840
Let's do that instead.

272
00:13:21.899 --> 00:13:24.840
And what's annoying is you get to like end game.

273
00:13:24.899 --> 00:13:28.019
Even endgame isn't uniquely apology.

274
00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:29.519
Yeah, they're trying to get home, but what is it?

275
00:13:29.580 --> 00:13:30.779
It's a time travel episode.

276
00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:33.120
There's 2 Janeways and it's the Bork.

277
00:13:33.179 --> 00:13:33.480
Yeah.

278
00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:34.799
That's all TNG, you know?

279
00:13:34.860 --> 00:13:35.460
Yeah, yeah.

280
00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:35.940
Yeah.

281
00:13:36.059 --> 00:13:36.779
It's sad.

282
00:13:36.899 --> 00:13:40.200
Anyway, let's not talk about, you know, in the future.

283
00:13:40.259 --> 00:13:43.019
Let's talk about now because I'll tell you what, this has got

284
00:13:43.019 --> 00:13:44.279
Cesca in it and she's amazing.

285
00:13:44.340 --> 00:13:46.139
Yeah, this is a pretty great episode.

286
00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:47.340
All right, what do you think?

287
00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:48.120
Should I count us in?

288
00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:50.460
I think we've rented enough.

289
00:13:50.940 --> 00:13:52.559
All right.

290
00:13:52.620 --> 00:14:00.779
Well, here goes five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

291
00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:05.460
Do you know, I only ran, you know, I only ran because I, you know

292
00:14:05.460 --> 00:14:09.360
of the untapped potential because in episodes like this, it shows

293
00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:10.320
the potential was there.

294
00:14:10.379 --> 00:14:15.480
So here we are in southern California in a very, very low-even

295
00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:17.759
planet, but we're outside.

296
00:14:17.820 --> 00:14:19.919
I was so excited.

297
00:14:20.460 --> 00:14:21.179
So excited.

298
00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:23.460
The 2nd they started, right?

299
00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:24.480
and they're on location.

300
00:14:24.539 --> 00:14:26.519
I just saw your face beaming.

301
00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:30.000
But it is a pretty shitty planet.

302
00:14:30.059 --> 00:14:33.600
And actually, I think that Neelix is super annoying here and

303
00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:34.200
he's...

304
00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:34.919
No, wait.

305
00:14:34.980 --> 00:14:36.539
He gets a great physical joke, though.

306
00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:38.700
He's talking about a horrible stick.

307
00:14:38.759 --> 00:14:40.860
There he is, pointing in his dick. penis.

308
00:14:40.919 --> 00:14:42.179
Yeah, it's so funny.

309
00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:44.580
What do you think?

310
00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:47.460
Chakotay grabs his arm so he doesn't kind of go in for a feel.

311
00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:48.539
Like, what's happening there?

312
00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:49.919
Like, anyway.

313
00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:51.899
That's Rick Berman there.

314
00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:53.100
I think so.

315
00:14:53.159 --> 00:14:53.879
So here we are.

316
00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:54.659
None of that.

317
00:14:54.720 --> 00:15:01.860
Leola root, it turns out, is is ginger painted inexpertly yellow

318
00:15:01.860 --> 00:15:04.620
with a leaf stuck on the end.

319
00:15:04.620 --> 00:15:08.759
The amount of jokes they get out of their fucking...

320
00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:11.940
We're talking about Leola root stew for the next 7 years.

321
00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:12.659
Get used to it.

322
00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:13.799
Yeah, that's true.

323
00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:14.580
Yeah.

324
00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:17.039
Oh, well, that's a peculiarly voyager thing.

325
00:15:17.100 --> 00:15:25.200
Can I say how stupid these uniforms look when you have a tricorder

326
00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:28.500
and a gun like in your pocket sticking out in front of you?

327
00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:30.600
Like, they look so stupid.

328
00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:35.700
They make them look like pyjamas more than they usually do, I

329
00:15:35.700 --> 00:15:35.940
think.

330
00:15:36.059 --> 00:15:37.080
They're pretty terrible.

331
00:15:37.139 --> 00:15:40.019
Can I say how appalling it is that we are, you know, this is one

332
00:15:40.019 --> 00:15:43.019
of the 1st chances of a voyager to go out. you know, the voyager

333
00:15:43.019 --> 00:15:44.940
crew to get out in the sun and all that.

334
00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.120
And we're not actually, you know, I know you're going to say I'm

335
00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:52.919
comparing this unfavourably to Enterprises Strange New World.

336
00:15:52.980 --> 00:15:55.500
But at least when they got out of the runabout in that.

337
00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:58.019
They were excited to be outside in the fresh air.

338
00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:00.779
That bunch are just scavenging around looking a bit bored.

339
00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:04.679
Yeah, there's, well, I mean, part of the problem is just that the

340
00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:08.820
planet looks so boring, but, you know, what can you do?

341
00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:11.879
at the end of the season, right, in the 37s, I might see, I think

342
00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:13.320
it's the beginning of season two.

343
00:16:13.379 --> 00:16:17.340
They land Voyager on Southern California.

344
00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:18.480
Yes, yeah.

345
00:16:18.539 --> 00:16:20.580
It's great to see Voyager Land.

346
00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:21.480
I love how it can do that.

347
00:16:21.539 --> 00:16:22.259
That is pretty cool.

348
00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:25.679
Dreadful episode, though, but it does look pretty spectacular, I've

349
00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:26.340
got to say, for the time.

350
00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:28.259
Okay, so here we go.

351
00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:31.200
Neelix wants to bring back bloodworms for his tartar.

352
00:16:31.259 --> 00:16:33.240
So that means raw.

353
00:16:33.299 --> 00:16:34.379
Raw blood worm.

354
00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:35.279
Yeah, yeah.

355
00:16:35.340 --> 00:16:37.980
Oh, I don't know. isn't that like black pudding?

356
00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:40.259
Oh, I don't know. blood, isn't it?

357
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:41.940
Yeah, but you don't eat that raw though, do you?

358
00:16:42.299 --> 00:16:43.799
Not sure.

359
00:16:43.860 --> 00:16:44.639
He's delicious.

360
00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:48.299
So, uh, the Kazon are approaching.

361
00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:50.039
Cajon ships are on their way.

362
00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:51.240
Or is there one here?

363
00:16:51.299 --> 00:16:51.899
And there's one here already.

364
00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:52.620
Yeah, isn't it?

365
00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:53.279
It's invisible.

366
00:16:53.340 --> 00:16:54.000
We don't know why.

367
00:16:54.779 --> 00:16:57.299
Are they got cloaking devices then?

368
00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:00.299
No, there's actually dialogue in here about this, that there's

369
00:17:00.299 --> 00:17:06.240
that someone has taught them how to avoid Voyager's senses.

370
00:17:06.299 --> 00:17:08.160
So, yes.

371
00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:09.480
Well, I wonder who that was.

372
00:17:09.539 --> 00:17:10.440
I no idea.

373
00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:13.740
Everybody seems to be here except for one person.

374
00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:14.579
Yeah.

375
00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:17.700
And we're establishing Joe Carey here.

376
00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:22.500
And so he apparently just disappears from the show and then just

377
00:17:22.500 --> 00:17:24.240
comes back in series 6 to be killed.

378
00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:27.180
He vanishes in series two, right?

379
00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:30.660
Seriously, when it comes back for one episode, then they kill him

380
00:17:30.660 --> 00:17:30.900
off.

381
00:17:31.380 --> 00:17:32.579
Oh, seriously, haven't is it?

382
00:17:32.579 --> 00:17:34.380
Come on, Cap, so miserable.

383
00:17:34.980 --> 00:17:39.180
Yeah, I'm kind of hoping that we get a few more people on board

384
00:17:39.180 --> 00:17:43.920
the Enterprise in Strange New World's next series.

385
00:17:43.980 --> 00:17:48.180
We've had some sort of regular background people and we had, you

386
00:17:48.180 --> 00:17:51.420
know, what's his face, Kirk's brother.

387
00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:53.220
But it'd be kind of nice.

388
00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:58.079
I do like, you know, the extra characters just, it's always the

389
00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:01.619
same 7 people doing every fucking thing on these stupid starships

390
00:18:01.619 --> 00:18:03.420
and it's kind of nice if we have more people.

391
00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:04.440
Is this a set?

392
00:18:04.500 --> 00:18:05.880
I don't think this is insane.

393
00:18:05.940 --> 00:18:08.279
I think I think these caves are real.

394
00:18:08.339 --> 00:18:10.799
I think that what they...

395
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:12.299
Yeah, because you can see...

396
00:18:12.299 --> 00:18:13.140
It comes around the corner now.

397
00:18:13.259 --> 00:18:15.839
Yeah, he's gone from outside.

398
00:18:15.900 --> 00:18:18.539
The camera's gone from outside in and then they're dripping.

399
00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:19.440
Yeah, yeah.

400
00:18:19.500 --> 00:18:22.859
And that doesn't normally happen in your stocks Star Trek cave

401
00:18:22.859 --> 00:18:25.140
number 52. number one, obviously.

402
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:26.819
I think that...

403
00:18:26.819 --> 00:18:33.240
I think we may actually move to the cave set because I'm not

404
00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:37.920
convinced by whatever that big, big ass fucking stalagmite is

405
00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:40.019
there that looks like it's made out of...

406
00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:41.579
I think the lighting's very good here.

407
00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:42.480
And I do like the dripping.

408
00:18:42.539 --> 00:18:43.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

409
00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:44.519
It does make it real.

410
00:18:44.579 --> 00:18:45.960
No, no, I think it makes it real.

411
00:18:46.019 --> 00:18:49.140
It makes it less like I said. you know, like there's water in it.

412
00:18:49.259 --> 00:18:49.859
I think that helps.

413
00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:54.420
See, now, look, I wouldn't have bought into this, the whole thing

414
00:18:54.420 --> 00:18:57.480
about, oh, I was picking mushrooms for you to make your soup, but

415
00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:00.539
then they pay that off after the title music.

416
00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:01.680
We were a great scene.

417
00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:03.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

418
00:19:03.059 --> 00:19:06.420
And that's a really important scene for the episode because it

419
00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:07.619
establishes their relationship.

420
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:09.420
Yeah, I think it's good.

421
00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:10.680
I really enjoyed it, actually.

422
00:19:10.740 --> 00:19:14.279
I think, you know, anyway, it's a bit cheesily.

423
00:19:14.339 --> 00:19:17.819
I think at this point we don't know enough about the caison for

424
00:19:17.819 --> 00:19:18.779
them to be annoying.

425
00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:21.900
Like, I think they, there's an episode in series 2 called

426
00:19:21.900 --> 00:19:24.000
initiations, I want to say.

427
00:19:24.059 --> 00:19:27.839
It's got Aaron Eisenberg in it as a young case of warrior.

428
00:19:27.900 --> 00:19:29.640
Is he called a bad character episode?

429
00:19:29.700 --> 00:19:30.900
It's called Kai.

430
00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:32.519
Dumb name for that.

431
00:19:32.579 --> 00:19:35.700
But that is the episode that really establishes them as like cod

432
00:19:35.700 --> 00:19:39.119
Klingons and they've just got rituals and it's basically just the

433
00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:39.720
Klingons.

434
00:19:39.779 --> 00:19:43.440
Whereas in series one, season one, you don't really see that much

435
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:43.859
of them.

436
00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:48.119
So they're kind of like a background menace more than anything.

437
00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:52.619
Yeah, I mean, even giving them the 1st letter and the same, like

438
00:19:52.619 --> 00:19:56.700
the same 1st letter and the same last 2 letters, like Klingon

439
00:19:56.700 --> 00:19:58.980
Kazon, seems like a dumb idea.

440
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:01.619
And like there is that...

441
00:20:01.619 --> 00:20:03.779
And the one, the makeup's pretty similar as well, isn't it?

442
00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:05.160
Yeah, bumpy forehead.

443
00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:06.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

444
00:20:06.180 --> 00:20:07.980
So when we meet the tribe.

445
00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:09.720
Do you remember what episode that is?

446
00:20:09.779 --> 00:20:11.279
Oh, my.

447
00:20:11.339 --> 00:20:12.720
It's a great episode as well.

448
00:20:12.779 --> 00:20:14.220
Oh my god, what's it called?

449
00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:16.500
Because it's halfway through season two.

450
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:20.579
It's the one where Janeway, you know, makes friendship with the

451
00:20:20.579 --> 00:20:22.380
train, and then she's like, right, we're going to bring all the

452
00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:24.420
sex together and then the train, you'll try and wipe them all out

453
00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:27.779
with a massive spaceship that comes down and tries to destroy the

454
00:20:27.779 --> 00:20:28.380
room they're in.

455
00:20:28.500 --> 00:20:32.279
And it's kind of terrible because it's kind of like, oh, these are

456
00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:36.119
nice white people and we're going to be their friends.

457
00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:40.380
And it turns out, you know, that the tribal people who are all

458
00:20:40.380 --> 00:20:43.799
fighting one another have just been routinely kind of oppressed

459
00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:46.980
and exploited by the trade.

460
00:20:47.099 --> 00:20:48.059
It's really good.

461
00:20:48.059 --> 00:20:52.140
The guy playing like the head train is so amiable.

462
00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:53.220
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

463
00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:55.140
And it just turns out he's horrifically evil.

464
00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:55.920
It's wonderful.

465
00:20:55.980 --> 00:20:57.180
Alliances.

466
00:20:57.240 --> 00:20:58.319
That's what the episode is called.

467
00:20:58.319 --> 00:20:58.980
Alliances.

468
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:00.599
Oh, it's a fantastic episode.

469
00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:03.119
State of flux.

470
00:21:03.180 --> 00:21:09.720
What does that mean in this Well, I actually think. that it's that

471
00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:14.460
the relationships among the crew are in a state of flux.

472
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:19.980
And it looks like it's a title about space things, but there's no

473
00:21:19.980 --> 00:21:24.720
real space things, it's, you know, we're in a state of flux, that

474
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:29.460
Chakotay is having to deal with the fact that he's 2nd in command

475
00:21:29.460 --> 00:21:34.440
but also the commander of the McKee, you know, the former captain

476
00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:35.819
of the McKee ship or whatever.

477
00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:38.579
So I think that that's what it's about because I can't think what

478
00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:39.000
else it is.

479
00:21:39.059 --> 00:21:41.339
There's nothing spicy that I forget.

480
00:21:41.579 --> 00:21:47.099
The, if this episode would be a lot poorer without the scene that

481
00:21:47.099 --> 00:21:47.819
we're watching right now.

482
00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:51.480
So it's the scene where Cesca brings Chakotay mushroom soup and

483
00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:55.799
details how with a, you know, clandestine marquee operation, they

484
00:21:55.799 --> 00:22:00.480
managed gain access to Neelix's kitchen. with a wonderful comedy

485
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:03.660
moment where she goes, well, the emergency must be over.

486
00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:06.119
So, and then it's like, you need extra.

487
00:22:06.180 --> 00:22:08.279
I thought that was really well timed.

488
00:22:08.339 --> 00:22:08.819
That was good.

489
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:10.559
That's been in my kitchen.

490
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:17.640
I actually wondered whether they cut the actual thing where they

491
00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:23.039
steal the mushrooms, and then just turned it into this Messenger

492
00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:27.119
speech from Cesca, because it does seem extremely detailed, and it

493
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:31.019
just seems like maybe it was a scene, and maybe it might have been

494
00:22:31.019 --> 00:22:35.339
better if we'd seen it rather than having Cesca come in and just

495
00:22:35.339 --> 00:22:35.940
talk about it.

496
00:22:36.059 --> 00:22:39.480
But this scene makes me like Cesca a lot.

497
00:22:39.539 --> 00:22:41.700
Like she's really fun in this scene.

498
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:44.400
And actually, this is the thing, which makes me think, oh, Chakotay

499
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:46.740
because he's laughing with her until it gets to the point where

500
00:22:46.740 --> 00:22:49.619
she kind of breaks the rules and then he's like, right, you're

501
00:22:49.619 --> 00:22:50.579
having no replicators.

502
00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:51.839
How should I say, come on?

503
00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:57.299
Except though, that we're in a situation here where things are

504
00:22:57.299 --> 00:22:58.619
scarce.

505
00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:04.440
And so she's taking stuff. that, you know, she's taking other

506
00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:06.299
people's share, essentially.

507
00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:11.519
And essentially, she's also kind of leading into that divide

508
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:13.920
between the marquee and the federation as well, isn't she?

509
00:23:13.980 --> 00:23:15.900
Like, this was a marquee operation we're going in.

510
00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:16.440
We're doing this.

511
00:23:16.500 --> 00:23:19.619
And you, you know, your ex-marquis, and we're doing this for you.

512
00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:21.000
It's, I get it.

513
00:23:21.059 --> 00:23:25.559
Yeah, I know it looks, I, I, like I know that it looks like it's a

514
00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:29.819
conflict between marquee values and federation values, but I also

515
00:23:29.819 --> 00:23:34.140
think it is like she is stealing stuff from the other crew

516
00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:34.859
members.

517
00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:39.480
And later on, when we get to the speech where she denounces the

518
00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:44.160
Federation, what she's denouncing the Federation for, or what

519
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:49.200
she's denouncing Janeway for, is refusing to allow the Kazon to

520
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:54.119
kill Orleocampers, because that was the, that's the moral dilemma

521
00:23:54.119 --> 00:23:55.259
at the end of Caretaker.

522
00:23:55.380 --> 00:23:58.920
Well, she says the incomprehensible decision of a Starfleet

523
00:23:58.920 --> 00:23:59.279
captain.

524
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:02.039
This is being a Cardassian ship, we'd have been home by now when

525
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:03.000
you kind of go now.

526
00:24:03.059 --> 00:24:04.920
That's the fucking point though, isn't it?

527
00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:08.400
And so, I don't know, though.

528
00:24:08.460 --> 00:24:11.039
I just, she's so much more charismatic than anyone else, I just

529
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:11.759
want to listen to her.

530
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:12.900
What she up, say, you know.

531
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:16.380
That's how all good, you know, dictators start.

532
00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:18.420
Yeah, yeah, they're very likeable people.

533
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:23.519
Well, I think, actually, Janeway can, uh, our does are

534
00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:24.240
enormously.

535
00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:27.900
It's just wonderful acting moments in this.

536
00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:32.039
But when she comes up behind him and gives him a hug there and she

537
00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:34.619
kind of shuts her eyes and actually buy the relationship.

538
00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:36.240
Yeah, we didn't know about it before now.

539
00:24:36.299 --> 00:24:40.680
No, I don't think I think I think there was kind of hens and

540
00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:41.160
whispers.

541
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:45.420
But no, it's never been explicitly stated until this point.

542
00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:48.240
And I was kind of like, okay, this is nice, and this is

543
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:49.140
believable.

544
00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:54.000
And so throughout him kind of having his head turn by her.

545
00:24:54.059 --> 00:24:55.380
It makes sense.

546
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:56.519
He's got feelings for her.

547
00:24:56.579 --> 00:24:58.079
You know, he doesn't want to believe it.

548
00:24:58.140 --> 00:25:01.980
And it's not until there's incontrovertible proof that he actually

549
00:25:01.980 --> 00:25:03.720
you know, turns against her.

550
00:25:03.779 --> 00:25:06.539
And she says, and I'm inclined to think that we're meant to

551
00:25:06.539 --> 00:25:09.599
believe her that she had feelings for him as well.

552
00:25:09.660 --> 00:25:10.799
She wasn't just faking it.

553
00:25:10.859 --> 00:25:12.119
I believe that too though.

554
00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:15.299
I think that... what the show wants us to believe.

555
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:19.680
She's explloiting him and she has been for a long time.

556
00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:25.019
But somewhere along the line, she genuinely had feelings for him.

557
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:26.819
Oh, yeah.

558
00:25:26.819 --> 00:25:28.079
Oh, I love this bit in the minute.

559
00:25:28.140 --> 00:25:32.759
Not only because the lighting is extremely dramatic.

560
00:25:32.819 --> 00:25:36.359
We were talking last week about how, you know, it can be quite

561
00:25:36.359 --> 00:25:40.319
flat in 90s trek. like beam onto the Cazon ship and it's all very

562
00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:42.420
X-Files. torches going and stuff.

563
00:25:42.539 --> 00:25:47.279
Not only that, but you like Roger didn't really throw much kind of

564
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:51.599
crazy imagery at you and the image of the Kazon sticking out of a

565
00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:53.759
bit of stone is really ghoulish.

566
00:25:53.819 --> 00:25:55.619
Yeah, that is pretty good, isn't it?

567
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:59.220
Because, I mean, we've had this, you know, wrecked spaceship set

568
00:25:59.220 --> 00:26:00.900
that we go on to investigate.

569
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:04.440
And they've got sort of sexier torches now in Voyager than they

570
00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:06.119
had in NextGen.

571
00:26:06.180 --> 00:26:08.819
Remember next gen they have the square ones that they have to hold

572
00:26:08.819 --> 00:26:10.019
in their hand and stuff?

573
00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:13.019
They've got these sort of double barrelled ones that are strapped

574
00:26:13.019 --> 00:26:15.119
to their wrist or something which seem a bit cooler.

575
00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:18.539
But I mean, this is the sort of set that we've seen before in Star

576
00:26:18.539 --> 00:26:18.960
Trek.

577
00:26:19.019 --> 00:26:22.140
This is the sort of thing we know that they can do.

578
00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:25.200
But this is super strange, isn't it?

579
00:26:25.259 --> 00:26:25.680
Great.

580
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:29.220
The way the guy's cheek is literally fused into the stone.

581
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:31.259
Yeah, yeah, really scary.

582
00:26:31.319 --> 00:26:34.200
And obviously it makes the point that they are not capable of

583
00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:35.160
handling this technology.

584
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:36.720
Yeah.

585
00:26:36.779 --> 00:26:37.559
Yeah.

586
00:26:37.619 --> 00:26:39.119
I think it's partly Cesca's fault.

587
00:26:39.539 --> 00:26:42.960
Why, do you think she gave them the wrong instructions for trying

588
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:43.799
to bob some of them off?

589
00:26:43.859 --> 00:26:44.519
I don't know.

590
00:26:44.579 --> 00:26:46.680
So we learn that it doesn't have property.

591
00:26:46.740 --> 00:26:49.980
I think that this is the most disturbing for here. is that if you

592
00:26:49.980 --> 00:26:55.140
don't properly shield, your food replicator, it really will just

593
00:26:55.140 --> 00:26:57.839
kind of meld you into the floor and shit.

594
00:26:57.900 --> 00:26:58.859
That does seem.

595
00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:01.380
That's good as well, because you're probably thinking, well, you

596
00:27:01.380 --> 00:27:03.480
know, she's trying to give them weapons or something like that.

597
00:27:03.539 --> 00:27:05.759
So the bit where, like, it's not until later in the episode, but

598
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:08.940
Landisori says of all the things to lose your life over is a food

599
00:27:08.940 --> 00:27:09.599
replicator.

600
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:15.119
They established in caretaker, they don't have, like, they never

601
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:18.420
follow up on this, but they don't have access to water.

602
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:23.160
So to have a food replicator, absolutely would change the balance

603
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:25.319
of power amongst the Kazon sets.

604
00:27:25.380 --> 00:27:26.279
Yeah, that's right.

605
00:27:26.339 --> 00:27:28.319
Water's a big thing, isn't it, in that 1st episode?

606
00:27:28.380 --> 00:27:30.480
It's...

607
00:27:30.539 --> 00:27:33.960
Do you remember, he comes along and has a bath and goes, oh, so... to

608
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:34.980
myself in water.

609
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:35.339
Yeah.

610
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:40.559
That's the 1st scene between Neelix and Chewbog. very funny.

611
00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:42.180
Well, he's in the bar.

612
00:27:42.299 --> 00:27:46.799
Can I get one of those replicators to have get a uniform like

613
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:47.099
yours?

614
00:27:47.099 --> 00:27:50.099
and Chewbok just looks at him, deadpan and goes, no, you suddenly

615
00:27:50.099 --> 00:27:50.519
cannot.

616
00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:55.559
Although he did wear one in the last Voyager episode that we

617
00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:57.420
watched, which is kind of delightful.

618
00:27:57.660 --> 00:27:59.160
Did he?

619
00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:02.400
Yeah, he was a security officer in the future before and after.

620
00:28:02.460 --> 00:28:02.819
Yeah.

621
00:28:02.940 --> 00:28:08.160
Okay, so now they've taken the one remaining Cazon that's not

622
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:08.880
fused into something.

623
00:28:08.940 --> 00:28:10.319
Yeah, to Sick Bay.

624
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:12.059
And he's not very well now.

625
00:28:12.539 --> 00:28:15.660
It's a great scene with him later as well, isn't it?

626
00:28:15.660 --> 00:28:16.740
When colour comes on the ship.

627
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:18.119
It's really good, isn't it?

628
00:28:18.180 --> 00:28:20.460
Because we spend a lot of time caring about this.

629
00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:26.220
So we want him to be alive partly because we're federation and

630
00:28:26.220 --> 00:28:27.299
we're great guys and stuff.

631
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:30.000
And like I'm not dismissing that. think that's a good thing.

632
00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:34.140
And in fact, colour gets told that, doesn't he, when it's kind of

633
00:28:34.140 --> 00:28:40.019
like everyone on the ship helped to donate blood or something or

634
00:28:40.019 --> 00:28:43.079
people on the ship donated blood in order to save this man.

635
00:28:43.140 --> 00:28:45.599
Yeah, like we've gone to great lengths to do that.

636
00:28:45.660 --> 00:28:48.960
And so it isn't just so that we can find out who sold you the

637
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:49.980
replicator or whatever.

638
00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:52.019
Because, I mean, at this point they don't even know that.

639
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:56.400
It's not explicitly stated because he's then killed after colour

640
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.059
kills him when after that scene where she says that, you know, they

641
00:29:00.059 --> 00:29:01.019
donated blood.

642
00:29:01.079 --> 00:29:06.599
But I wonder if that, if that is part of the reason why, because

643
00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:08.220
they're shown later.

644
00:29:08.279 --> 00:29:11.700
Yeah, that they, you know, they, they don't want to, they, they

645
00:29:11.700 --> 00:29:13.140
like to keep themselves pure, you know?

646
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:13.680
Yeah.

647
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:19.140
But I think that it's because colour doesn't want Cesca to be

648
00:29:19.140 --> 00:29:21.059
outed. exposed.

649
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:21.779
Yeah.

650
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:23.400
I think that that's probably it.

651
00:29:23.460 --> 00:29:25.559
It isn't said explicitly why it happens.

652
00:29:25.619 --> 00:29:26.880
And it is a good scene.

653
00:29:26.940 --> 00:29:30.539
It is quite shocking, actually, because we have kind of invested a

654
00:29:30.539 --> 00:29:34.619
reasonable amount of time in the episode, you know, making sure

655
00:29:34.619 --> 00:29:35.279
that he's okay.

656
00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:38.940
And this, I love these things.

657
00:29:40.380 --> 00:29:40.799
So good.

658
00:29:40.859 --> 00:29:42.660
Look at her response to option three.

659
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:46.440
I don't like number 3 at all. number 3 at all.

660
00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:47.220
She's so good.

661
00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:50.220
And no other captain would have had to worry about this.

662
00:29:50.279 --> 00:29:52.920
This is not something that you would worry about.

663
00:29:52.980 --> 00:29:56.460
The crew are giving technology to other people.

664
00:29:56.460 --> 00:29:59.819
You could just toss them into prison if this was happening in the

665
00:29:59.819 --> 00:30:02.700
Alpha Quadrant, you know, you could absolutely hand them over to

666
00:30:02.700 --> 00:30:03.359
the authorities.

667
00:30:03.420 --> 00:30:03.960
There aren't.

668
00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:05.519
They are the authority here, you know?

669
00:30:05.579 --> 00:30:07.440
No one else would be motivated to do it.

670
00:30:07.500 --> 00:30:11.339
You live on a starship, you know, you get all those lovely meals

671
00:30:11.339 --> 00:30:13.859
and stuff and lovely quarters and things.

672
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:17.759
You know, no one's disaffected on border starship, but here there

673
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:21.359
are people who are disaffected because they've been isolated from

674
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:24.660
their families and stranded here because of a command decision, you

675
00:30:24.660 --> 00:30:24.839
know?

676
00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:28.380
And what's wonderful then is it just opens out suspicion onto

677
00:30:28.380 --> 00:30:28.859
everybody.

678
00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:32.039
But obviously, initially, they're all thinking, well, it's going

679
00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:32.940
to be a marquee member.

680
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:36.599
You know, they were forced onto this ship, into this situation

681
00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:38.039
into this command structure.

682
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:41.339
But I mean, all of the Starfleet people.

683
00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:44.099
In fact, I think they make a good decision.

684
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:48.839
So eventually it just settles down to suspecting one of 2 people

685
00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:52.799
one of whom is Starfleet and one of whom's a marquis.

686
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:55.559
And I...

687
00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:57.539
Like, even though in the back of our heads, because there's

688
00:30:57.539 --> 00:31:00.359
something in Marv Hacker's performance, that just means you know

689
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:00.960
it's her.

690
00:31:01.019 --> 00:31:04.559
So the real suspense comes in how they're going to catch her out.

691
00:31:04.619 --> 00:31:10.859
But they play on that in the way that the story is designed, like

692
00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:12.240
in the way the story is resolved.

693
00:31:12.299 --> 00:31:21.119
The way that they find out that it's Cesca is because Cesca... tries

694
00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:25.500
to implicate herself in order to prove that it's scary, right?

695
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:29.339
And so I think that she seems too obvious.

696
00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:30.539
She's so villainous.

697
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:34.319
She's already been stealing food from other people on the ship, so

698
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:37.440
we know that she's willing to steal things, you know?

699
00:31:37.500 --> 00:31:40.200
And so maybe that's too obvious.

700
00:31:40.259 --> 00:31:44.579
And so we start to suspect that it's really scary. which would be

701
00:31:44.579 --> 00:31:45.480
an anxiety twist.

702
00:31:45.539 --> 00:31:47.519
How long they wait?

703
00:31:47.579 --> 00:31:49.500
to come back after this.

704
00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:51.900
It's halfway through season two.

705
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:53.880
It's manoeuvres in season season two.

706
00:31:53.940 --> 00:31:55.259
So they're almost way off.

707
00:31:55.259 --> 00:31:59.099
Whole season, which makes her return, where she comes up.

708
00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:00.420
Hello, Chicone.

709
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:01.680
You're like, yes.

710
00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:05.160
And that's the 1st time you see her in full Cardassian makeup

711
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:06.480
because obviously you don't see her in it.

712
00:32:06.539 --> 00:32:07.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

713
00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:11.819
And then we get a half season of all these Cesca appearances where

714
00:32:11.819 --> 00:32:13.019
she gets more grandiose.

715
00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:17.460
Yeah, yeah. leading up to basics, obviously, when they take over

716
00:32:17.460 --> 00:32:18.539
the ship and steal it.

717
00:32:18.599 --> 00:32:23.400
I still think one of the best scenes ever, in Chakotay in Voyagos

718
00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:26.339
when she turns up and goes, and this is your baby, Chakotay.

719
00:32:28.380 --> 00:32:32.400
Oh, God, it's so terribly, I love it.

720
00:32:33.420 --> 00:32:35.819
Oh dear, oh, dear.

721
00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:36.420
Oh, that's right.

722
00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:39.779
So he's now assigning her to the bridge to show to everybody that

723
00:32:39.779 --> 00:32:42.660
he trusts her because you wouldn't put someone you don't trust on

724
00:32:42.660 --> 00:32:43.079
the bridge.

725
00:32:43.140 --> 00:32:43.799
Yeah.

726
00:32:43.859 --> 00:32:46.319
Yeah, look, I love all these dynamics.

727
00:32:46.380 --> 00:32:48.240
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

728
00:32:48.299 --> 00:32:48.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

729
00:32:49.019 --> 00:32:51.599
And like she's worried about her reputation because she's been

730
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:53.819
taken off this mission publicly.

731
00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:56.819
And here, like I buy this as well.

732
00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:58.380
She doesn't want to be outed.

733
00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:03.779
She's concerned that he will wake up and recognise her, say, hey

734
00:33:03.779 --> 00:33:07.799
you know, uh, here's the receipt that I promised you.

735
00:33:07.859 --> 00:33:09.000
Yeah, yeah.

736
00:33:09.059 --> 00:33:12.539
Like, I wonder if you're supposed to think she's concerned for him

737
00:33:12.539 --> 00:33:12.779
actually.

738
00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:14.160
She's concerned he's going to spill.

739
00:33:14.220 --> 00:33:14.940
That's the trouble.

740
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:19.500
Yeah, no, but I think she even even if she's like she's concerned

741
00:33:19.500 --> 00:33:21.660
just imagine she's not the villain, right?

742
00:33:21.720 --> 00:33:25.619
If we think that she's not, she's been unjustly suspected.

743
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:32.279
She's, she wants him to turn up, to wake up and not recognise her

744
00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:32.640
right?

745
00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:37.259
And so this is not suspicious behaviour from our point of view as

746
00:33:37.259 --> 00:33:39.359
an audience trying to work out what's happening, I think.

747
00:33:39.539 --> 00:33:44.220
What I think is really clever is they put a twist within the

748
00:33:44.220 --> 00:33:44.640
twist.

749
00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:48.599
So, like, even if you kind of guessed, yeah, she's the one given

750
00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:52.019
them the technology, you never would have guessed, actually, she's

751
00:33:52.019 --> 00:33:55.440
a Cardassian, and she never was a marquee at all.

752
00:33:55.500 --> 00:33:55.920
Yeah.

753
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:57.839
And that's a, do you know what, Martha Hackett?

754
00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:01.500
There's a quote from her on memory alpha going, you know, I read

755
00:34:01.500 --> 00:34:04.019
this script and I thought, oh my god, she's evil.

756
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:05.819
And then, 0 my god, she's a Kardashian.

757
00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:06.960
She's double evil.

758
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:09.179
She loved it.

759
00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:12.480
Well, no, I bet. and it gives her great stuff to do.

760
00:34:12.539 --> 00:34:17.460
But, you know, even the reveal that she's a Cardassian, there's a

761
00:34:17.460 --> 00:34:21.300
moment where she explains to Chakotay what she says really

762
00:34:21.300 --> 00:34:21.599
happened.

763
00:34:21.900 --> 00:34:26.039
That is a trick cliche, you know, where they sound...

764
00:34:26.099 --> 00:34:27.659
I was on this labour camp.

765
00:34:27.719 --> 00:34:29.760
It's a genius, very cliche.

766
00:34:29.820 --> 00:34:32.820
Yeah. he had a Kalanora syndrome.

767
00:34:33.239 --> 00:34:34.619
Yeah.

768
00:34:34.619 --> 00:34:37.619
And that's why he's, you know, he's not Maritza.

769
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:39.300
So it's kind of something we've done before.

770
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:40.980
So we're like, oh, okay, so we can buy into this.

771
00:34:41.099 --> 00:34:43.860
Well, we do know that's the sort of thing that happened.

772
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:45.360
You know, like that...

773
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:48.420
It reminds me of that wonderful bit in a serene squall where she

774
00:34:48.420 --> 00:34:51.480
goes, did you really buy into that terrible backstory I gave you

775
00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:53.340
that you should have complaining about?

776
00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:55.320
Yeah, that's right.

777
00:34:55.320 --> 00:35:01.139
But they don't, yeah, a 90s track at this point. not going to take

778
00:35:01.139 --> 00:35:03.119
the piss out of the cliche. quite nice, yeah.

779
00:35:03.179 --> 00:35:06.719
But it's kind of funny because we're not in a position to judge

780
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:08.219
whether that's credible or not.

781
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:11.940
And so it looks like Chakotay believes it.

782
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:15.179
And then, of course, we're double, there's another twist where he

783
00:35:15.179 --> 00:35:18.059
knew that that was all bullshit because the doctor had ruled it

784
00:35:18.059 --> 00:35:20.099
out already as a possibility.

785
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:25.019
Now, you said to me, when we were talking off Mike, that this

786
00:35:25.019 --> 00:35:28.739
might be the point where Chakotay stopped being a credible

787
00:35:28.739 --> 00:35:29.340
character.

788
00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:32.400
But actually, I think in season two, there's one episode where he

789
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:36.539
goes after Cesca, and he's determined to like bring her down, which

790
00:35:36.539 --> 00:35:37.320
works really well.

791
00:35:37.380 --> 00:35:39.239
And then there's an episode towards the end of the season where

792
00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:40.920
him and Jane were having almost romance.

793
00:35:40.980 --> 00:35:44.340
But I think at the end of season two, that's when he stops

794
00:35:44.340 --> 00:35:46.800
offering anything of work to the show.

795
00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:51.539
Yeah, and like he has an interesting role here because he's not

796
00:35:51.539 --> 00:35:55.980
just the person who, I mean, I don't even know what Chakotay does

797
00:35:55.980 --> 00:35:58.380
in a normal episode in series four.

798
00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:00.119
Like, does he read out things?

799
00:36:00.179 --> 00:36:01.980
He sits next to Janeway.

800
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:05.159
He sticks to Janeway and says things like, you know, oh, yes

801
00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:06.719
you're fiddling with your combatge.

802
00:36:06.780 --> 00:36:09.719
That must mean you're, that's right. your tail. having a tough

803
00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:11.639
time making a decision or something like that, you know.

804
00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:13.500
Dreadful banter like that.

805
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:13.920
Yeah.

806
00:36:13.980 --> 00:36:17.760
So he's given stuff to do and he's given an interesting position

807
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:24.179
to be in because he's got loyalties as the 1st officer of the ship

808
00:36:24.179 --> 00:36:27.480
but as leader of the McKee, and he sympathises with the McKee.

809
00:36:27.539 --> 00:36:29.400
As lover to kiss, does that stuff?

810
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:31.500
Yeah, yeah, it's a triple whammy, really.

811
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:32.039
Yeah.

812
00:36:32.099 --> 00:36:34.320
And like, I don't think he's that good.

813
00:36:34.380 --> 00:36:37.860
Like, I don't think Robert Beltran's Beltran Gray.

814
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:39.239
I'll tell you what, though.

815
00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:41.159
There's something hot about him in early Voyager.

816
00:36:41.219 --> 00:36:44.039
He's got a touch of grace to his hair before he started dying it

817
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:44.340
you know?

818
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:47.219
No, I mean, and I like him a lot better than I like the other

819
00:36:47.219 --> 00:36:48.480
Robert, to be honest.

820
00:36:49.380 --> 00:36:51.000
Excuse me.

821
00:36:51.059 --> 00:36:52.199
Robert Picardo.

822
00:36:52.260 --> 00:36:52.679
How dare you?

823
00:36:52.739 --> 00:36:55.199
Oh, God, everyone's called Robert on this fucking show, right?

824
00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:58.380
Robin Duncan McNeil.

825
00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:00.300
Why are 3 people called Robert?

826
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:01.380
That's crazy.

827
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:04.920
There should be a screen actors guild rule about it.

828
00:37:04.980 --> 00:37:06.539
So, you know what?

829
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:08.460
This is this is anti before and after, you know.

830
00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:10.559
This is focussing on all the characters we love on Voyager.

831
00:37:10.619 --> 00:37:14.039
I've got a good role for Lola Torres, got a good role for

832
00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:14.579
Janeway.

833
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:16.079
You've got a good role for Seska.

834
00:37:16.139 --> 00:37:20.039
You know, and Harry Kim and Tom Paris.

835
00:37:20.099 --> 00:37:22.380
I'll shunt it to the sidelines and don't do anything.

836
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:24.059
We even see Harry in this episode.

837
00:37:24.119 --> 00:37:27.300
Yeah, he was just there, delivering some Technobab, but the case

838
00:37:27.300 --> 00:37:27.719
on shift.

839
00:37:27.780 --> 00:37:28.739
That's so boring.

840
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:30.719
Bit thankless, but he was there.

841
00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:31.440
Yeah, okay.

842
00:37:31.500 --> 00:37:32.880
He's barely in it though, isn't he?

843
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:36.000
Kez gets a nice little scene where she's, you know, talking about

844
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:37.679
the blood with Cesca.

845
00:37:37.739 --> 00:37:39.239
Yeah.

846
00:37:39.239 --> 00:37:39.960
Early hair.

847
00:37:40.019 --> 00:37:41.039
What was going on with that?

848
00:37:41.159 --> 00:37:42.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

849
00:37:42.179 --> 00:37:42.900
I thought I liked it.

850
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:43.679
How weak?

851
00:37:43.739 --> 00:37:44.940
Yeah, it's a week, obviously.

852
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:47.099
She only ever wears a...

853
00:37:47.159 --> 00:37:49.619
Why would you deliberately make someone as beautiful as Jennifer

854
00:37:49.619 --> 00:37:51.000
Leanne look awful.

855
00:37:51.059 --> 00:37:51.900
Yeah, I don't know.

856
00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:52.440
Don't know.

857
00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:53.519
She's supposed to look extra strange.

858
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:54.659
I think is the idea.

859
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:57.300
Do you think Carrie looks a bit like Chief O'Brien?

860
00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:02.340
Yeah, he's kind of like your low rent, you know, non-union Mexican

861
00:38:02.340 --> 00:38:05.099
equivalent of Columini, I think.

862
00:38:05.159 --> 00:38:06.239
And he is Irish.

863
00:38:06.300 --> 00:38:08.159
Well, his name's Carrie, isn't it?

864
00:38:08.219 --> 00:38:09.000
isn't it?

865
00:38:09.059 --> 00:38:10.019
Well, it is.

866
00:38:10.019 --> 00:38:10.320
Yeah.

867
00:38:10.739 --> 00:38:14.039
I think Janeway's been looking through the archives, right?

868
00:38:14.099 --> 00:38:17.219
Captain Pike and seeing how fabulously high his hair goes and

869
00:38:17.219 --> 00:38:17.940
she's trying to match it.

870
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:21.599
Honestly, it's enormous, though, heck.

871
00:38:21.659 --> 00:38:22.079
Yeah.

872
00:38:22.139 --> 00:38:25.199
I don't know about her season one here.

873
00:38:25.260 --> 00:38:28.679
I kind of was hoping for just a normal French curl.

874
00:38:28.739 --> 00:38:32.099
I think this is a sort of weird look, but, you know, it's got a

875
00:38:32.099 --> 00:38:35.039
sort of, you know, like a Russian hat.

876
00:38:35.699 --> 00:38:38.340
You know, you've got to remember, though, at this point in the rum

877
00:38:38.340 --> 00:38:41.400
those execs are still on the set for every episode watching

878
00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:43.320
everything he's doing.

879
00:38:43.380 --> 00:38:45.000
Is she okay to do this?

880
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:46.559
Man, man.

881
00:38:46.619 --> 00:38:48.059
Look at her fair look.

882
00:38:48.179 --> 00:38:50.400
I'd like to believe you, Mr. Carey.

883
00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:52.440
She's really great.

884
00:38:52.500 --> 00:38:53.639
She's so good.

885
00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:55.440
So good.

886
00:38:55.500 --> 00:38:58.739
I think I think her best moment is when she confronts colour

887
00:38:58.739 --> 00:38:59.039
though.

888
00:38:59.099 --> 00:39:02.880
I think she has 2 stunning moments, but the confrontation with

889
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:03.960
colour is spectacular.

890
00:39:04.019 --> 00:39:08.039
So good. don't like bullies. and I don't like you.

891
00:39:08.099 --> 00:39:08.519
Really?

892
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:10.440
I don't like threats.

893
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:11.639
It's a tricolon.

894
00:39:11.699 --> 00:39:12.780
I don't like threats.

895
00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:15.840
I don't like bullies and I don't like you, Carla.

896
00:39:15.900 --> 00:39:16.559
It's so good.

897
00:39:16.619 --> 00:39:20.039
And she's so solid delivery.

898
00:39:20.099 --> 00:39:20.639
She's great.

899
00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:24.539
I'm entirely convinced. is a good line.

900
00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:25.199
Look at that.

901
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:29.400
She spent the last 2 years as an enemy of the Federation.

902
00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:34.199
And he just says, so have I. And I think that's a really properly

903
00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:34.860
interesting line.

904
00:39:35.340 --> 00:39:38.639
You know, you've brought into me being a part of this crew.

905
00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:40.320
So you should buy into her too.

906
00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:42.480
That sort of stuff.

907
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:44.099
There's so much to be done.

908
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:50.400
Certainly enough here to for there to be the possibility that she

909
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:51.480
didn't do it.

910
00:39:51.539 --> 00:39:52.739
Oh yeah, absolutely.

911
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:54.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

912
00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:55.860
Yeah, we absolutely know shit.

913
00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:56.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

914
00:39:56.519 --> 00:39:58.679
But I think that's the thing that she's too obvious.

915
00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:01.860
And what would be more interesting is if it turns out to be Carey

916
00:40:01.860 --> 00:40:03.900
who's missing his mum or something. you know.

917
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:06.840
Can I just say this man playing marsh colour?

918
00:40:06.900 --> 00:40:09.360
Okay, he gets quite a few appearances in series two.

919
00:40:09.420 --> 00:40:12.719
Cesca's bit on the side, you know, she's playing him on a long

920
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:13.079
string.

921
00:40:13.139 --> 00:40:17.579
I think he's got, he's not as good as, but he actually has got a

922
00:40:17.579 --> 00:40:18.360
bit of charisma.

923
00:40:18.420 --> 00:40:20.280
Oh, yeah, that's what I think he's great.

924
00:40:20.340 --> 00:40:22.440
That's Marco Lemo charisma, you know.

925
00:40:22.500 --> 00:40:25.380
I think he's really properly good in this.

926
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:27.420
And striking looking.

927
00:40:27.480 --> 00:40:28.500
Don't you think?

928
00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:31.019
He looks really stupid fucking hair.

929
00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:32.460
What is that hair all about?

930
00:40:32.579 --> 00:40:34.920
But he's a bow mask scale.

931
00:40:34.980 --> 00:40:36.420
I give him a 8.7.

932
00:40:36.539 --> 00:40:38.159
It is pretty stupid, isn't it?

933
00:40:38.219 --> 00:40:40.739
But he's got a really angular face.

934
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:42.360
He's got really strong features.

935
00:40:42.420 --> 00:40:43.920
I really, I think he's great.

936
00:40:44.039 --> 00:40:48.539
But what's wonderful is how in season two, Cesca emasculates him

937
00:40:48.539 --> 00:40:48.780
you know?

938
00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:52.260
He's like posturing and she's there and he's there going, yes

939
00:40:52.260 --> 00:40:52.739
Marsh.

940
00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:57.420
Yeah, but I also think you should divert to this course, Marge.

941
00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:00.360
I think it's really impressive as well.

942
00:41:00.420 --> 00:41:03.840
You know how they try and go for sort of grunty animalistic kind

943
00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:05.639
of delivery when you're a Klingon?

944
00:41:05.699 --> 00:41:08.400
And he doesn't, he's very posh and clipped and stuff.

945
00:41:08.460 --> 00:41:09.659
I think he's really good.

946
00:41:09.719 --> 00:41:13.260
And he's quite calm too, and a bit genial.

947
00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:17.880
Yeah, it is that it is that gold Ducat effect, isn't it?

948
00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:21.059
of like the sort of villain that you want to hang with.

949
00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:23.280
Yeah, I think he's really terrific.

950
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:28.440
And just the fact that she sort of fairly effortlessly refuses to

951
00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:31.019
be intimidated by him.

952
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:33.780
You know, she has the upper hand.

953
00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:38.159
You know, earlier in the episode where Neelix goes, you know

954
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:40.800
captain, you shouldn't go after these caisson ships.

955
00:41:40.860 --> 00:41:44.039
This could be a, this could be a trap, and she says, yeah, but, you

956
00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:46.079
know, we're going to be humane, and we're going to help them out

957
00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:46.500
anyway.

958
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:47.940
I love that beer.

959
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:49.019
Yeah.

960
00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:53.639
Well, this, you know, where he says that's not acceptable and she

961
00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:58.260
just says, well, it will have to be, you know, and it's. you

962
00:41:58.260 --> 00:41:58.920
turned on now, right?

963
00:41:58.980 --> 00:42:01.079
The way she's looking at him, then it could be like a romance

964
00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:01.500
scene.

965
00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:05.579
She's kind of given him the eyes. slap him and then dark kiss.

966
00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:09.960
We learned in counterpoint that Janeway is very good at, you know

967
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:14.039
flirting outrageously and being very well aware she's talking to a

968
00:42:14.039 --> 00:42:15.000
villain at the same time.

969
00:42:15.059 --> 00:42:15.900
I think so.

970
00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:20.880
Oh, I love this.

971
00:42:20.940 --> 00:42:22.440
So good, isn't it?

972
00:42:22.500 --> 00:42:24.960
It's sort of shockingly unexpected.

973
00:42:25.019 --> 00:42:26.760
I'm glad that Tuvok isn't fooled by it.

974
00:42:26.820 --> 00:42:30.539
It's so good Do you remember when they pulled off a similar trick

975
00:42:30.539 --> 00:42:34.980
in basics where the the Kazon man comes onto for you?

976
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:38.400
I'm defecting and they wait till about two-thirds into the episode

977
00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:41.760
and then he injects himself and literally flows.

978
00:42:41.820 --> 00:42:43.619
Yeah, that's right.

979
00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:44.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

980
00:42:44.820 --> 00:42:45.539
Yeah, that's right.

981
00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:47.639
That's really great.

982
00:42:47.699 --> 00:42:48.659
Get off my ship.

983
00:42:48.780 --> 00:42:50.219
She's so good.

984
00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:52.139
And she's absolutely in command.

985
00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:54.719
Like, he's physically massive compared to her.

986
00:42:54.780 --> 00:42:59.219
Um, you know, but she has the edge.

987
00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:01.079
She's really, really properly good.

988
00:43:01.139 --> 00:43:02.340
She stands up to him so well.

989
00:43:02.699 --> 00:43:07.380
I am so unused, and this is going to sound like a half-assed

990
00:43:07.380 --> 00:43:10.199
compliment to Voyager, having this much substance in its

991
00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:12.900
characterisation and in its narrative.

992
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:16.440
That's what really stood out for me and it's just a lot, there's a

993
00:43:16.440 --> 00:43:17.340
lot happening in this, you know?

994
00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:17.820
Yeah.

995
00:43:17.820 --> 00:43:18.599
Yeah.

996
00:43:18.659 --> 00:43:20.280
And it means something.

997
00:43:20.340 --> 00:43:22.199
Like it has an impact.

998
00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:26.760
Her being a trace, in this episode has an impact on Bilanatores, it

999
00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:28.019
has an impact on Chakotay.

1000
00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:30.539
It absolutely has an impact on Janeway because she's really in

1001
00:43:30.539 --> 00:43:32.099
tears. in our 2nd class scene.

1002
00:43:32.159 --> 00:43:33.420
Yeah, that's so good.

1003
00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:35.460
I think that's her 2nd great acting moment.

1004
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:36.900
I think it's so good.

1005
00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:38.760
Such an interesting choice.

1006
00:43:38.820 --> 00:43:41.880
Not necessarily imposed on her by the script or anything.

1007
00:43:41.940 --> 00:43:43.980
It's just a really, really good choice.

1008
00:43:44.699 --> 00:43:48.119
At the end of this scene, right, there's a throwaway bit of

1009
00:43:48.119 --> 00:43:51.059
dialogue where they're going onto the bridge and he goes to

1010
00:43:51.059 --> 00:43:54.300
Chicago goes to Chewbok, you were working for her.

1011
00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:55.079
She was working for them.

1012
00:43:55.139 --> 00:43:57.059
Was anyone on that shit working for me?

1013
00:43:57.119 --> 00:43:58.920
I really like that.

1014
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:02.519
He must literally be thinking he's, you know, the biggest bloody

1015
00:44:02.519 --> 00:44:04.440
fall win, the whole of the Marquis.

1016
00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:05.940
He is turns out.

1017
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:09.420
Oh, what's she doing with that?

1018
00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:11.280
Oh, that's a pattern enhancer.

1019
00:44:11.340 --> 00:44:12.420
Remember Pat Enhancers?

1020
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:13.139
We've talked about them before.

1021
00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:14.460
Oh, from power play.

1022
00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:16.079
They set that up, didn't they?

1023
00:44:16.139 --> 00:44:17.699
And then they all did a little die backwards.

1024
00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:18.840
That's what I remember.

1025
00:44:19.260 --> 00:44:20.880
There it is.

1026
00:44:20.940 --> 00:44:22.860
Was any on that ship working for me?

1027
00:44:22.920 --> 00:44:26.340
I prefer that kind of bit of throwaway dialogue to the scene at

1028
00:44:26.340 --> 00:44:26.579
the end.

1029
00:44:26.639 --> 00:44:28.380
It's a little bit later, I think.

1030
00:44:28.380 --> 00:44:30.000
But we didn't need it.

1031
00:44:30.059 --> 00:44:33.480
It would have, and it doesn't make sense either, I think.

1032
00:44:33.539 --> 00:44:36.179
And it kind of, as you know, chewbox going, you know.

1033
00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:40.380
How is me being fooled by her making you feel better?

1034
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:41.639
Yeah, like come on.

1035
00:44:41.699 --> 00:44:46.980
I think what's really fun too. is that we think it's going to be a

1036
00:44:46.980 --> 00:44:51.059
race against time, that we have to get this evidence before the

1037
00:44:51.059 --> 00:44:52.500
other Kazon turn up.

1038
00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:55.079
But in fact, we get the evidence at the end of the next scene.

1039
00:44:55.139 --> 00:44:57.539
And even Jane wears kind of, oh, all right, you're finished.

1040
00:44:57.599 --> 00:44:58.079
Fantastic.

1041
00:44:58.139 --> 00:45:01.139
And then he, then we get this.

1042
00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:01.679
Here she goes.

1043
00:45:01.739 --> 00:45:02.820
Holy crap, she's good.

1044
00:45:06.659 --> 00:45:11.280
She turns me on a little bit, you know, when she's this forceful.

1045
00:45:11.340 --> 00:45:13.860
Just tremendously great.

1046
00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:16.260
I've got supernovas in them. you see them?

1047
00:45:17.219 --> 00:45:19.019
Look at her.

1048
00:45:19.079 --> 00:45:21.719
She's got her hands on her hips.

1049
00:45:21.719 --> 00:45:23.639
The Janeway maneuver, we call that.

1050
00:45:23.699 --> 00:45:27.360
You know how the Picard maneuver is when he pulls his shirt down

1051
00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:30.119
to straighten out the wrinkles.

1052
00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:31.260
That's the Janeway maneuver.

1053
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:34.320
That's a very good shot of the power dynamics on the Voyager

1054
00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:36.239
Bridge there, because she's there with her hands on her hips

1055
00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:39.179
looking very authoritative, and he's limping a chair next to her

1056
00:45:39.179 --> 00:45:40.139
looking a bit useless.

1057
00:45:40.260 --> 00:45:41.039
What am I doing?

1058
00:45:41.099 --> 00:45:41.639
Well, there you go.

1059
00:45:41.699 --> 00:45:42.599
That's exactly it.

1060
00:45:42.659 --> 00:45:43.920
Wonderful.

1061
00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:46.260
And, you know, go back to next gen, you would have had Troy

1062
00:45:46.260 --> 00:45:48.960
looking a bit useless while Picard was looking important, you

1063
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:49.079
know?

1064
00:45:49.139 --> 00:45:50.340
things have changed for the better.

1065
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:52.019
She is so good.

1066
00:45:52.139 --> 00:45:52.860
Holy crap.

1067
00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:57.539
And I want to say, you know, what do we think about Bilana season

1068
00:45:57.539 --> 00:45:58.079
one?

1069
00:45:58.139 --> 00:46:01.619
It's a little masculine, isn't it?

1070
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:02.579
It gets longer.

1071
00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:03.599
I think it's terrible.

1072
00:46:03.659 --> 00:46:06.059
I just think it's really shockingly bad.

1073
00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:09.119
I mean, season one, you know, like everyone's growing into their

1074
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:09.659
look eventually.

1075
00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:11.699
Look at Cisco in DS9, you know?

1076
00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:15.480
Yeah, I think Neelix too actually looks a little bit weird in this

1077
00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:15.780
episode.

1078
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:19.980
But I do think you and I need to do an episode that gives Roxanne

1079
00:46:19.980 --> 00:46:24.539
Dawson a bit of focus soon because we haven't and she is a star

1080
00:46:24.539 --> 00:46:25.619
player on this show.

1081
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:26.280
She is very good.

1082
00:46:26.340 --> 00:46:30.480
Oh, no, we did the, you know, horrible hologram baby episode.

1083
00:46:30.539 --> 00:46:31.739
What's that called?

1084
00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:32.460
lineage.

1085
00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:33.659
That's mostly her?

1086
00:46:33.780 --> 00:46:35.280
Oh, of course, I forgot about it.

1087
00:46:35.340 --> 00:46:37.860
Yeah, but she was been swamped out by Duncan O'Neill the whole

1088
00:46:37.860 --> 00:46:38.039
time.

1089
00:46:38.099 --> 00:46:38.699
Yeah, that's true.

1090
00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:43.139
Okay, what's occurring now?

1091
00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:43.980
I've lost it a bit.

1092
00:46:44.039 --> 00:46:46.320
They've discovered what it is, I guess.

1093
00:46:46.380 --> 00:46:53.219
And what caused the people melting into the bulkheads problem that

1094
00:46:53.219 --> 00:46:54.000
we saw earlier.

1095
00:46:54.119 --> 00:46:55.199
Oh, this is wonderful.

1096
00:46:55.260 --> 00:46:59.519
This bit here where Seske goes, you know, you must think I'm

1097
00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:00.840
horrible.

1098
00:47:00.900 --> 00:47:07.199
I think I'm a Cardassian and a crazy, you know, she really kind of

1099
00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:09.059
she really lays it on thick ear.

1100
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:11.460
I was like, go on Marfa Hackett.

1101
00:47:11.519 --> 00:47:14.219
Well, in fact, it's really great because there is that scene

1102
00:47:14.219 --> 00:47:17.159
earlier on where they're kind of conspiring together and we see

1103
00:47:17.159 --> 00:47:21.179
her enjoying telling that story to Chakotay and him enjoying the

1104
00:47:21.179 --> 00:47:24.539
story until it ends up with, and then I stole lots of food from

1105
00:47:24.539 --> 00:47:25.260
everyone.

1106
00:47:25.739 --> 00:47:30.239
Can I ask, is there another character on voyage with these kind of

1107
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:30.599
layers?

1108
00:47:30.659 --> 00:47:37.139
Well, I mean, not well, I mean, it's not layers really, is it sort

1109
00:47:37.139 --> 00:47:39.300
of, she gets interesting plot things happen to her.

1110
00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:40.679
Like that happened with her.

1111
00:47:40.739 --> 00:47:43.619
She's got one mask over another over another.

1112
00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:43.980
Yeah.

1113
00:47:43.980 --> 00:47:44.280
Yeah.

1114
00:47:44.340 --> 00:47:47.639
She gets a lot of fun. a character where they can actually play

1115
00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:53.099
about with the possibility of who they are and I just, I don't

1116
00:47:53.099 --> 00:47:53.340
know.

1117
00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:55.679
I just don't think there's anyone as interesting as this later

1118
00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:56.219
on.

1119
00:47:56.280 --> 00:47:57.420
I don't think there is either.

1120
00:47:57.480 --> 00:48:02.219
I mean, seven, I think, is pretty interesting, but it's a fairly

1121
00:48:02.219 --> 00:48:05.099
straightforward premise and it's the actor that...

1122
00:48:05.099 --> 00:48:07.800
It's just her...

1123
00:48:07.860 --> 00:48:09.300
It's kind of that's interesting, I think.

1124
00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:12.780
Well, it's interesting because of the actress because Jerry Ryan's

1125
00:48:12.780 --> 00:48:13.019
so good.

1126
00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:13.860
Yeah, yeah.

1127
00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:18.239
Whereas what they settle on with Cesca is supervillain, but...

1128
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:18.840
That's great.

1129
00:48:18.900 --> 00:48:20.099
It's fun to have a soon.

1130
00:48:20.219 --> 00:48:21.239
When is that ever not wonderful?

1131
00:48:21.900 --> 00:48:22.619
that's right.

1132
00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:23.400
That's right.

1133
00:48:23.460 --> 00:48:25.739
The films all do supervillains, don't they?

1134
00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:28.739
Lots of the the later films do.

1135
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:30.360
I'm on as good as Sescono, you know.

1136
00:48:30.420 --> 00:48:31.139
No, that's true.

1137
00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:35.219
And in fact, she's so good that even when, no, she long departed

1138
00:48:35.219 --> 00:48:37.679
the show, they did an episode towards the end of series three

1139
00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:40.440
which was a holiday program of Cesca overthrowing the ship.

1140
00:48:40.500 --> 00:48:41.400
Yes, that's right.

1141
00:48:41.460 --> 00:48:46.500
And then way forward in series 7, in an episode called Shattered

1142
00:48:46.500 --> 00:48:50.159
where Chakotay is travelling along the Voyager Timeline.

1143
00:48:50.219 --> 00:48:50.519
Yeah.

1144
00:48:50.519 --> 00:48:54.239
And one of the time zones he goes to, has says in it.

1145
00:48:54.300 --> 00:48:56.280
But they don't they can't quite forget about her.

1146
00:48:56.340 --> 00:48:57.659
I'm glad, though.

1147
00:48:57.719 --> 00:48:58.559
She is spectacular.

1148
00:48:58.619 --> 00:48:59.519
She really is good.

1149
00:48:59.579 --> 00:49:05.280
And this, like, this is, you know, Cesca acting and Martha acting

1150
00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:07.199
and I think it's pretty great.

1151
00:49:07.260 --> 00:49:08.460
We talked about this before.

1152
00:49:08.519 --> 00:49:10.380
It is the incredible sob story.

1153
00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:15.599
She says a line here that's so emasculating to Shikose, because

1154
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:19.199
she says, you must have thought I did it all for your secrets.

1155
00:49:19.260 --> 00:49:22.559
Well, let me tell you, your secrets weren't good enough, but I

1156
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:24.239
know what she's really saying.

1157
00:49:24.300 --> 00:49:27.719
Well, except that she says, I only had one agenda with you

1158
00:49:27.719 --> 00:49:30.059
Chakosay, and you know what that, what that was.

1159
00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:31.559
Fuck him.

1160
00:49:31.619 --> 00:49:32.880
Yeah, well, yeah, yeah.

1161
00:49:32.940 --> 00:49:34.139
You know.

1162
00:49:34.199 --> 00:49:36.360
And maybe that's actually kind of true.

1163
00:49:36.420 --> 00:49:39.900
You know, she's a Cardassian that somehow ended up on this ship.

1164
00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:43.739
And when we discover she's a Kardassian, that's not a problem.

1165
00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:44.400
Do you know what I mean?

1166
00:49:44.460 --> 00:49:46.440
Like, she's a Cardassian, but that's not the problem.

1167
00:49:46.500 --> 00:49:48.360
The problem is she's kind of a bad person.

1168
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:52.440
What I love about this as well is that the audience is kind of

1169
00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:55.739
duped here because we're at the point now where we think, oh, JJ's

1170
00:49:55.739 --> 00:49:56.460
so fucking naive.

1171
00:49:56.519 --> 00:49:58.079
Like, how is he buying this anymore?

1172
00:49:58.139 --> 00:50:02.039
And then you Sick Bay and goes straight up to Chewfac and says

1173
00:50:02.039 --> 00:50:04.019
right, she's just told me this cock and ball story.

1174
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:05.579
Let's watch her now.

1175
00:50:05.639 --> 00:50:08.039
And I'm like, okay, so this is really playing some interesting

1176
00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:08.400
games.

1177
00:50:08.460 --> 00:50:13.199
Yeah, I, because I have a low opinion of Chakotay, I just assumed

1178
00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:16.139
that he was being a complete patsy in this scene.

1179
00:50:16.139 --> 00:50:21.539
And then we cut to Tuvok in a sort of interesting blocked scene

1180
00:50:21.539 --> 00:50:22.139
there.

1181
00:50:22.980 --> 00:50:24.780
He's so good.

1182
00:50:24.840 --> 00:50:25.920
Holy crap.

1183
00:50:25.980 --> 00:50:27.000
Hey, Tim Ross.

1184
00:50:27.059 --> 00:50:28.199
Yes, wasted.

1185
00:50:28.260 --> 00:50:29.940
Oh, they are you, wasted on the show.

1186
00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:33.000
I've got some quotes from Tim Rush, you know, in my book, which

1187
00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:35.760
when we get there, I'm going to tell you, because he's fucking

1188
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:38.519
scathing about the Techno Battle in Voyager, you know.

1189
00:50:38.579 --> 00:50:39.900
Yeah.

1190
00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:42.960
There are scenes of technobabble here that I think are kind of a

1191
00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:47.940
bit crap. and early on, there was a few bits where, you know, my

1192
00:50:47.940 --> 00:50:50.639
brain was fighting what was being said to me because it just

1193
00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:51.539
really wasn't very interesting.

1194
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:55.079
No, but I mean, then we've just done an episode before this that

1195
00:50:55.079 --> 00:50:57.780
was entirely techno-babble-based.

1196
00:50:57.840 --> 00:51:00.420
You know, it was the interaction of the product.

1197
00:51:00.420 --> 00:51:03.360
Yeah, chronoton radiation interacting with the biotemporal

1198
00:51:03.360 --> 00:51:03.900
therapy.

1199
00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:07.260
Like it couldn't have been less literally terrifying.

1200
00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:08.940
Like just that you remember that, you know?

1201
00:51:08.940 --> 00:51:12.420
Two completely bullshit things interacting to really...

1202
00:51:12.420 --> 00:51:15.059
Watching Star Trek's not been a waste in your brain.

1203
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:16.679
No, no, I'm...

1204
00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:18.480
I'm thinking about what you've got stored in there now.

1205
00:51:18.539 --> 00:51:22.739
I'm going to get Andre Balmanis to sign you over for the next book

1206
00:51:22.739 --> 00:51:23.039
all right?

1207
00:51:23.099 --> 00:51:27.420
Now, can I just tell you that this gin rummy thing?

1208
00:51:27.480 --> 00:51:32.820
The dialogue here is about how they're going to solve the plot.

1209
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:39.300
And it's like I discard enough cards to fool you about what I

1210
00:51:39.300 --> 00:51:40.320
still have in my hand.

1211
00:51:40.380 --> 00:51:44.400
Like, that's him describing his strategy.

1212
00:51:44.460 --> 00:51:47.099
So I'm there going, what the fuck is this scene for?

1213
00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:48.840
Like, why are we playing cards?

1214
00:51:48.900 --> 00:51:49.559
What's happening here?

1215
00:51:49.619 --> 00:51:52.199
And it is clearly just that.

1216
00:51:52.260 --> 00:51:54.960
It's like both of them are doing that.

1217
00:51:55.019 --> 00:51:57.360
It's a little bit like the counterpoint stuff, which is obviously

1218
00:51:57.360 --> 00:52:01.199
much, much better done in the episode counterpoint, the way all

1219
00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:05.039
that's talk about interacting spirals and music and all of that

1220
00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:10.139
sort of thing informs of, informs us about how the, the episode's

1221
00:52:10.139 --> 00:52:10.500
going to go.

1222
00:52:11.219 --> 00:52:15.119
I love scenes like this, you know, the suspense in this moment

1223
00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:17.340
where you're like, 0 my God, it's happening right now.

1224
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:20.280
They're literally moving the evidence and the music was sort of

1225
00:52:20.280 --> 00:52:23.099
rising a little bit and you're like, you know, you're on

1226
00:52:23.099 --> 00:52:25.199
tenderhooks as to who the bloody hell is doing this.

1227
00:52:25.260 --> 00:52:25.679
Yeah.

1228
00:52:25.739 --> 00:52:28.860
But why just doesn't have suspense like this very often?

1229
00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:29.280
No.

1230
00:52:29.340 --> 00:52:30.119
Yeah.

1231
00:52:30.179 --> 00:52:31.260
It's really good.

1232
00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:34.079
And it matters to us because these are semi-regular characters.

1233
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:40.079
This is a top 10 boy just seen, this scene in Sick Bay now.

1234
00:52:40.139 --> 00:52:40.800
This whole scene.

1235
00:52:40.860 --> 00:52:45.000
I quite like how Cesca's decided to put some lipstick on for this

1236
00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:49.980
scene too, because I think that she looks more vulnerable when she

1237
00:52:49.980 --> 00:52:52.739
doesn't have her lipstick on and now she's wearing supervillain

1238
00:52:52.739 --> 00:52:53.340
lipstick.

1239
00:52:53.400 --> 00:52:59.219
We kind of, you know, she's she's a little bit more of a force to

1240
00:52:59.219 --> 00:53:00.059
be reckoned with, I think.

1241
00:53:00.420 --> 00:53:04.800
What's what's lovely about this is she does. she continues to try

1242
00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:08.760
and follow him for about, what about 30 seconds thinking Oh, you

1243
00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:10.679
know, I've still got him wrapped around my little finger, his

1244
00:53:10.679 --> 00:53:12.000
penis wrapped around my finger.

1245
00:53:12.059 --> 00:53:12.780
That's right.

1246
00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:16.199
Until then the lights come on and then she doesn't even have a

1247
00:53:16.199 --> 00:53:18.179
moment where she goes all supervillain.

1248
00:53:18.239 --> 00:53:20.940
She's still talking in the same tone, but she's just like, all

1249
00:53:20.940 --> 00:53:22.199
right, it's a fair cock guv.

1250
00:53:22.260 --> 00:53:23.159
Yeah, you got me.

1251
00:53:23.880 --> 00:53:28.380
And because she knows she's got a way out, we don't know yet, but

1252
00:53:28.380 --> 00:53:28.800
she does.

1253
00:53:28.860 --> 00:53:31.800
She plays the whole scene so cool, doesn't she?

1254
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:33.360
Yeah, she's really good.

1255
00:53:35.639 --> 00:53:40.619
And I think what's interesting is not just her delivery, but just

1256
00:53:40.619 --> 00:53:43.260
everybody else's silent reactions to her.

1257
00:53:43.380 --> 00:53:44.460
Yeah.

1258
00:53:44.519 --> 00:53:48.659
I think he's getting to, this is a good speech for him and he's

1259
00:53:48.659 --> 00:53:49.800
getting to do things with it.

1260
00:53:49.860 --> 00:53:54.059
Now with the lights on and all of us come in. time for an

1261
00:53:54.059 --> 00:53:54.659
accusation.

1262
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:57.599
Yeah. in my space.

1263
00:53:57.900 --> 00:54:00.000
Folding her arms.

1264
00:54:00.539 --> 00:54:04.139
So we haven't settled on EMH at this point.

1265
00:54:04.199 --> 00:54:07.559
He's the emergency holographic medical program instead of the

1266
00:54:07.559 --> 00:54:08.219
other way around.

1267
00:54:08.280 --> 00:54:11.159
He doesn't get to say, please state the nature of the medical

1268
00:54:11.159 --> 00:54:12.059
emergency here.

1269
00:54:13.079 --> 00:54:16.619
I mean, I'm not sure we needed a doctor for this, but they could

1270
00:54:16.619 --> 00:54:19.440
have just said, well, we spoke to the doctor and he said, you

1271
00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:19.739
know.

1272
00:54:19.800 --> 00:54:23.159
Yeah, except that we didn't get to see that scene where we spoke

1273
00:54:23.159 --> 00:54:28.920
to the doctor, so let's give Robert, the other Robert, something

1274
00:54:28.920 --> 00:54:30.119
to do, I think.

1275
00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:32.579
But this is like, so it's great.

1276
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:34.739
We get, you know, the double whammy twists.

1277
00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:37.679
He's just said it was you that did it, and then the doctor comes

1278
00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:39.480
with us, says, and you're a Kardashian.

1279
00:54:39.539 --> 00:54:40.440
Yeah, yeah.

1280
00:54:40.500 --> 00:54:43.800
But the being a carnassian isn't the problem, is it?

1281
00:54:43.860 --> 00:54:46.679
Like, they would have gone along with her, and it just turns out

1282
00:54:46.679 --> 00:54:49.260
that she's a Cardassian who was caught up in this stupid thing

1283
00:54:49.260 --> 00:54:52.619
that they did and, you know, happens to be stuck there.

1284
00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:55.440
Yeah, when they were when they were taken, Yeah, taken by the case

1285
00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:56.460
she must have been enough, for fuck's sake.

1286
00:54:56.579 --> 00:54:58.980
You know, I was on this covert mission with the marquee.

1287
00:54:59.039 --> 00:55:00.780
I'm stuck here with you, bunch.

1288
00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:01.739
Yeah, yeah.

1289
00:55:01.800 --> 00:55:03.179
Yeah, it is kind of bad luck.

1290
00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:05.400
Do you think she went to bed every night going?

1291
00:55:05.460 --> 00:55:06.480
going to find out one day.

1292
00:55:06.659 --> 00:55:10.440
No, I think I think probably not.

1293
00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:14.159
And I think part of the thing is that she clearly underestimates

1294
00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:19.019
them as well because they outclass her here and all of them are in

1295
00:55:19.019 --> 00:55:19.380
on it.

1296
00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:21.960
All of this stuff was happening behind the scenes in a way that

1297
00:55:21.960 --> 00:55:22.800
she wasn't aware of.

1298
00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:25.679
She gets here.

1299
00:55:25.739 --> 00:55:29.820
She gets a brilliant bit where she's like federation.

1300
00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:31.619
Well, she says federation compassion.

1301
00:55:31.679 --> 00:55:34.980
Federation, nobility, Federation honour.

1302
00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:36.780
Yeah, but she's wrong.

1303
00:55:36.840 --> 00:55:39.780
You know, she's wrong about the federation here.

1304
00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:41.880
No, this is a...

1305
00:55:41.880 --> 00:55:42.539
Is she wrong, Nathan?

1306
00:55:42.599 --> 00:55:43.320
Yes, yes.

1307
00:55:43.380 --> 00:55:44.579
Because...

1308
00:55:44.699 --> 00:55:47.099
I mean, I don't think their campers are very interesting, so maybe

1309
00:55:47.099 --> 00:55:50.579
they should have got, they are just, you know, like a completely

1310
00:55:50.579 --> 00:55:53.880
made up threat or not threat, you know, thing to worry about.

1311
00:55:53.940 --> 00:55:57.420
They're like the people of Veridian 3 and Star Trek generations

1312
00:55:57.420 --> 00:55:59.340
who he couldn't possibly give a shit about.

1313
00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:04.440
But but if the choice is between allowing the Kazon to annihilate

1314
00:56:04.440 --> 00:56:08.579
a race of people and this single ship being inconvenienced, even

1315
00:56:08.579 --> 00:56:12.360
if the ship had been blown up, you know, like it would have been

1316
00:56:12.360 --> 00:56:14.940
the right course of action, it would have been the right thing to

1317
00:56:14.940 --> 00:56:16.980
do, and she's wrong, you know?

1318
00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:20.340
I just, I just love it when people, I've got a lot of issues with

1319
00:56:20.340 --> 00:56:22.679
the federation, you know, especially how they're portrayed in

1320
00:56:22.679 --> 00:56:26.280
early TNG is imperialist assholes going around to me.

1321
00:56:26.340 --> 00:56:27.300
No, we can't help them.

1322
00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:30.059
They let them have their drug addiction, you know?

1323
00:56:30.900 --> 00:56:34.739
Well, that's why the Federation works so well in discovery is

1324
00:56:34.739 --> 00:56:41.519
because we're in an era that needs cooperation and that's facing

1325
00:56:41.519 --> 00:56:44.519
various threats that needs to work together and needs to connect

1326
00:56:44.519 --> 00:56:46.739
and that's been isolated.

1327
00:56:46.800 --> 00:56:49.800
You know, everyone's been isolated for one another for ages.

1328
00:56:49.980 --> 00:56:53.460
You know, amongst all that top dialogue, she just had them, you

1329
00:56:53.460 --> 00:56:55.980
know, uh, condemning the Federation.

1330
00:56:56.039 --> 00:56:58.739
The best bit is the soap opera bit where she just looks at him and

1331
00:56:58.739 --> 00:57:01.800
goes, I can't believe I ever loved you to go take.

1332
00:57:01.860 --> 00:57:02.519
Right.

1333
00:57:02.579 --> 00:57:11.099
Now I'm going. where Cesca goes and she realises Janeway realises

1334
00:57:11.099 --> 00:57:13.139
that she can't get her back.

1335
00:57:13.199 --> 00:57:18.239
And she kind of tears up for a 2nd and then turns around isn't

1336
00:57:18.239 --> 00:57:19.139
immediately back on.

1337
00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:22.980
And that's such a great choice because, you know, this is the 1st

1338
00:57:22.980 --> 00:57:25.079
season of Star Trek with a female captain.

1339
00:57:25.139 --> 00:57:28.380
How is a female captain going to be different from a man?

1340
00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:32.340
And it's that thing because she's the caretaker as well.

1341
00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:34.860
That's why that 1st episode's called Caretaker.

1342
00:57:34.920 --> 00:57:40.019
She has to look after this crew because there's no one else.

1343
00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:43.019
And she's lost one of them.

1344
00:57:43.079 --> 00:57:47.880
You know, do you think it would have been quite interesting when

1345
00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:49.679
you know, she's determined, isn't she?

1346
00:57:49.739 --> 00:57:55.260
that 7 of 9 is going to join the crew and regain her, even when

1347
00:57:55.260 --> 00:57:57.480
you know, pretty much everyone's saying to her, you know, she's

1348
00:57:57.480 --> 00:57:58.380
are gone.

1349
00:57:58.440 --> 00:57:59.340
We can't do it.

1350
00:57:59.400 --> 00:58:02.460
It might have been worth actually saying, you know, I lost one of

1351
00:58:02.460 --> 00:58:06.780
my crews to the Kazon Nistrom.

1352
00:58:07.860 --> 00:58:10.679
Maybe he didn't need to be reminded of that.

1353
00:58:10.739 --> 00:58:14.699
As good as as good as Mulgrew is there at the end of Prime Factors

1354
00:58:14.699 --> 00:58:18.840
you know, where she's facing down Blano Torres and she's like, you

1355
00:58:18.840 --> 00:58:24.000
know, if you disobey my rules again, there will be consequences.

1356
00:58:24.059 --> 00:58:27.420
And then Chewbok, and then she has to deal with Chewbok, and she

1357
00:58:27.420 --> 00:58:31.079
does the whole scene in like this restrained whisper, like she's

1358
00:58:31.079 --> 00:58:33.840
on the edge of tears because he's portrayed her.

1359
00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:35.760
Man she's good.

1360
00:58:35.880 --> 00:58:37.019
Yeah, she is really good.

1361
00:58:37.079 --> 00:58:41.099
And I love the choice of making the 2 of them just friends, you

1362
00:58:41.099 --> 00:58:41.400
know.

1363
00:58:41.460 --> 00:58:43.619
And there's not enough of that, I think.

1364
00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:47.340
That's a new kind of...

1365
00:58:47.400 --> 00:58:51.000
We get the odd moment where she keeps them a birthday cake or

1366
00:58:51.000 --> 00:58:53.880
something like that, but it's not like the Cisco Dax friendship

1367
00:58:53.880 --> 00:58:57.539
where they, you know, there's a lot of complexity for it over time

1368
00:58:57.539 --> 00:58:58.440
and it ended.

1369
00:58:59.219 --> 00:58:59.940
Yeah, indeed.

1370
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:01.980
And it ended in a bit of a crap way.

1371
00:59:02.039 --> 00:59:07.619
And it's that sort of stupid, you know, why should me failing make

1372
00:59:07.619 --> 00:59:08.519
you feel better?

1373
00:59:08.579 --> 00:59:11.519
And you kind of think, Jesus Christ, come on, you've met people

1374
00:59:11.519 --> 00:59:12.059
before.

1375
00:59:12.119 --> 00:59:12.960
What are you talking about?

1376
00:59:13.019 --> 00:59:16.019
And the reason that Chakotay Gibbs doesn't seem to be the right

1377
00:59:16.019 --> 00:59:16.380
reason.

1378
00:59:16.440 --> 00:59:21.659
He says misery loves company, but surely it's like, well, if she

1379
00:59:21.659 --> 00:59:26.159
fooled Tuvok, then I'm not a massive fucking idiot because Tuvok

1380
00:59:26.159 --> 00:59:28.559
isn't, you know, that seems to be, don't you think?

1381
00:59:28.619 --> 00:59:29.940
That would be why he feels better.

1382
00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:32.400
Not just because Tuvolks feeling bad as well.

1383
00:59:32.460 --> 00:59:36.480
It just seemed like a kind of shitty tone deaf kind of way to end

1384
00:59:36.480 --> 00:59:36.780
it.

1385
00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:40.019
And it doesn't end up being about anything, you know?

1386
00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:44.820
I think one thing that I took away from this was what a crime and

1387
00:59:44.820 --> 00:59:49.380
shame it was to write out Cesca at the end of season 2 because she

1388
00:59:49.380 --> 00:59:51.300
is so fucking watchable.

1389
00:59:51.360 --> 00:59:57.480
And they don't, Voyager doesn't have a recurring villain.

1390
00:59:58.199 --> 00:59:59.699
I gave the series too.

1391
00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:02.219
The ball queen sort of turns up, but she's so boring.

1392
01:00:02.340 --> 01:00:05.280
She only turns up like 3 times or something, doesn't she?

1393
01:00:05.340 --> 01:00:06.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1394
01:00:06.539 --> 01:00:08.940
It's something that DS9 got absolutely right, isn't it?

1395
01:00:08.940 --> 01:00:12.360
with Dukart and Wei Yun and the female shapeshifter and win.

1396
01:00:12.420 --> 01:00:15.360
And, you know, when these people turned up, you were like, yes, you

1397
01:00:15.360 --> 01:00:18.420
know, now we're going against them, serious scenery chewing going

1398
01:00:18.420 --> 01:00:18.840
on here.

1399
01:00:18.900 --> 01:00:24.179
Um, and there were some people that might, like, anoraks from the

1400
01:00:24.179 --> 01:00:27.239
year of hell potentially could have been overcover even.

1401
01:00:27.300 --> 01:00:32.880
There was a pretty dreary, but great premise episode where it's

1402
01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:33.480
like hustle.

1403
01:00:33.539 --> 01:00:35.760
There's a group of people going around pretending that they're

1404
01:00:35.760 --> 01:00:36.900
from Voyager.

1405
01:00:36.900 --> 01:00:38.159
So it's a fake Janeway.

1406
01:00:38.159 --> 01:00:41.460
And I fake, and the fake Janeway is actually really good and she

1407
01:00:41.460 --> 01:00:43.980
would have been a great recurring villain.

1408
01:00:44.280 --> 01:00:45.780
But they just don't.

1409
01:00:45.840 --> 01:00:46.800
They just don't do it.

1410
01:00:46.860 --> 01:00:48.300
I just think that's a real shame.

1411
01:00:48.360 --> 01:00:53.400
Yeah, I mean, it stops being this show, I think.

1412
01:00:53.460 --> 01:00:57.480
And, you know, like it doesn't leave it unable to do good things

1413
01:00:57.480 --> 01:01:01.019
because there are good episodes coming up and all sorts of

1414
01:01:01.019 --> 01:01:03.900
interesting episodes, and all sorts of interesting episodes that

1415
01:01:03.900 --> 01:01:08.280
might not have been possible if we hadn't decided to move through

1416
01:01:08.280 --> 01:01:13.320
the galaxy and meet a succession of different, uh, you know

1417
01:01:13.320 --> 01:01:13.980
adversaries.

1418
01:01:14.039 --> 01:01:17.699
I think in, in retrospect, that ends up not being such a bad

1419
01:01:17.699 --> 01:01:18.539
idea.

1420
01:01:18.599 --> 01:01:24.179
But you just wish the show was as rich and interesting as this one

1421
01:01:24.179 --> 01:01:25.559
is, I think.

1422
01:01:25.619 --> 01:01:26.699
Yeah.

1423
01:01:26.760 --> 01:01:31.139
And what's really terrible is when Cesca is written out in basics

1424
01:01:31.139 --> 01:01:31.679
part two.

1425
01:01:31.739 --> 01:01:32.400
Do you remember the scene?

1426
01:01:32.460 --> 01:01:34.679
No, I don't think I do.

1427
01:01:34.739 --> 01:01:37.739
See, and you should remember it when...

1428
01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:38.400
The snow.

1429
01:01:38.460 --> 01:01:41.219
And it's basically she's on the Bridge of Voyager with the baby

1430
01:01:41.219 --> 01:01:46.800
and like a bolt hits the ship and then she sort of like is

1431
01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:50.340
reaching off screen and that's the last we see of her. it's just

1432
01:01:50.340 --> 01:01:50.760
nothing.

1433
01:01:50.880 --> 01:01:51.599
Oh, okay.

1434
01:01:51.659 --> 01:01:53.460
When Win left DS9.

1435
01:01:53.639 --> 01:01:55.860
I know you have some issues with those scenes in the fire caves.

1436
01:01:55.920 --> 01:01:58.679
But she's like, I'll stop you, Ducats.

1437
01:01:58.739 --> 01:02:01.320
And he goes, are you still here?

1438
01:02:01.380 --> 01:02:02.820
I killed her.

1439
01:02:02.880 --> 01:02:04.559
I'll never forget it.

1440
01:02:04.619 --> 01:02:07.019
Do they not they don't properly kill Cesca?

1441
01:02:07.079 --> 01:02:07.980
We just...

1442
01:02:07.980 --> 01:02:09.360
It's off off screen.

1443
01:02:09.420 --> 01:02:13.800
It's acknowledged that she was found dead amongst all the Kazan

1444
01:02:13.800 --> 01:02:14.579
people on the bridge.

1445
01:02:14.639 --> 01:02:16.679
Oh, that's super boring.

1446
01:02:16.739 --> 01:02:17.519
I know.

1447
01:02:17.579 --> 01:02:19.320
It's the Jerry Taylor effect.

1448
01:02:19.380 --> 01:02:21.840
Yeah, it is a bit of a shame, isn't it?

1449
01:02:21.900 --> 01:02:30.599
Yeah Okay, it's the end of the episode, so it's time for us to

1450
01:02:30.599 --> 01:02:35.880
pull up untitled Star Trek project.com slash randomiser and this

1451
01:02:35.880 --> 01:02:38.400
week it's Joe's turn to pick.

1452
01:02:38.460 --> 01:02:40.619
So what series are we choosing from?

1453
01:02:40.980 --> 01:02:45.239
What's the most predictable series I could possibly choose?

1454
01:02:45.300 --> 01:02:47.639
Uh, deep so sign.

1455
01:02:47.699 --> 01:02:49.559
That is the series I've chosen.

1456
01:02:49.619 --> 01:02:52.860
And it's just because it's just because I've been watching a few

1457
01:02:52.860 --> 01:02:55.380
lately and I just want to, and I know we've done quite a bit of

1458
01:02:55.380 --> 01:02:59.280
90s lately and we will head out soon, but there's a lot of it.

1459
01:02:59.340 --> 01:03:03.239
Yeah, most of it, most of Star Trek is from this era.

1460
01:03:03.900 --> 01:03:06.960
So if you will indulge me.

1461
01:03:07.019 --> 01:03:07.320
Yeah.

1462
01:03:07.380 --> 01:03:10.500
Yep, I'd like to a DS9 episode next.

1463
01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:11.760
Okay.

1464
01:03:11.820 --> 01:03:12.840
Well, tell me when you're ready.

1465
01:03:12.900 --> 01:03:14.280
Oh, I'm ready now.

1466
01:03:14.340 --> 01:03:15.480
I'm just pressed up.

1467
01:03:15.539 --> 01:03:15.960
Okay.

1468
01:03:16.559 --> 01:03:21.239
Your random Star Trek Deep Space 9 episode is season six, episode

1469
01:03:21.239 --> 01:03:24.119
15, Honour Amongst Thieves.

1470
01:03:24.179 --> 01:03:26.099
Is it a Quark episode?

1471
01:03:26.159 --> 01:03:31.440
No, no, it's an O'Brien episode where he is undercover in a pretty

1472
01:03:31.440 --> 01:03:33.179
well realised location actually.

1473
01:03:33.239 --> 01:03:38.219
It's got Nick Tate from, is he from Space, Space 1999.

1474
01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:39.780
And Skippy.

1475
01:03:39.840 --> 01:03:41.400
Is he from Skippy?

1476
01:03:41.460 --> 01:03:42.480
He's an Australian anyway.

1477
01:03:42.539 --> 01:03:45.000
Isn't he a final mission as well?

1478
01:03:45.059 --> 01:03:46.139
He's in final mission.

1479
01:03:46.199 --> 01:03:47.039
Yeah, he's the same guy, yeah.

1480
01:03:47.099 --> 01:03:49.320
And he gives a really great performance, but it's a little quiet

1481
01:03:49.320 --> 01:03:51.000
and so I'm going to press it again.

1482
01:03:51.059 --> 01:03:51.780
Okay.

1483
01:03:51.780 --> 01:03:53.940
Oh, looking for Pamark in all the wrong places.

1484
01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:56.159
Ah, which we covered in episodes?

1485
01:03:56.219 --> 01:03:56.760
I'll tell you what.

1486
01:03:56.760 --> 01:03:59.519
This randomiser is obsessed with us talking about sex, you know?

1487
01:03:59.579 --> 01:04:00.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1488
01:04:00.900 --> 01:04:02.099
Well, I wrote it.

1489
01:04:02.159 --> 01:04:06.480
Your random Star Trek Deep Space 9 episode is season five, episode

1490
01:04:06.480 --> 01:04:08.039
two, the ship.

1491
01:04:08.219 --> 01:04:12.239
Ooh, I like episode 2 of a season, actually.

1492
01:04:12.300 --> 01:04:16.320
We resolve the cliffhanger and then head off boldly in another

1493
01:04:16.320 --> 01:04:16.800
direction.

1494
01:04:16.860 --> 01:04:17.460
What do you think?

1495
01:04:17.519 --> 01:04:20.760
That's one of 2 episodes with a female water.

1496
01:04:20.820 --> 01:04:22.260
Ooh.

1497
01:04:22.260 --> 01:04:24.300
And a lot of tension.

1498
01:04:24.360 --> 01:04:26.940
It's pretty dark that episode.

1499
01:04:27.000 --> 01:04:29.639
Um, Oh, it's a good one.

1500
01:04:29.699 --> 01:04:32.760
It is a good one, but unfortunately I have pressed it again. press

1501
01:04:32.760 --> 01:04:33.239
the button again.

1502
01:04:33.360 --> 01:04:35.099
Oh, okay.

1503
01:04:35.159 --> 01:04:40.380
Oh, I really want to do this, but it's part 2 of a 2 parter.

1504
01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:42.360
We haven't done a DS92 party, yeah.

1505
01:04:42.420 --> 01:04:44.460
I think we have to.

1506
01:04:44.519 --> 01:04:48.000
The rules are that we have to do both parts.

1507
01:04:48.360 --> 01:04:51.539
So it's season seven.

1508
01:04:51.539 --> 01:04:52.440
Yeah.

1509
01:04:52.500 --> 01:04:55.079
Episode 2 Shadows and Symbols.

1510
01:04:55.139 --> 01:04:59.400
So it would be Imogen of the Sand, Imogen the Sand.

1511
01:04:59.519 --> 01:05:02.880
I think it's called Image Sand. and shadows and shadows and

1512
01:05:02.880 --> 01:05:03.300
cymbals.

1513
01:05:03.360 --> 01:05:06.360
Now, there's that's definitely a two-part because Deep Space 9

1514
01:05:06.360 --> 01:05:10.019
does do the thing where they have different titles. like the Dia's

1515
01:05:10.019 --> 01:05:11.880
cast and stuff like that.

1516
01:05:11.940 --> 01:05:13.079
So that is a thing.

1517
01:05:13.139 --> 01:05:14.519
So I think that we have to...

1518
01:05:14.519 --> 01:05:19.559
Cisco on Earth. finding out about his mother.

1519
01:05:19.619 --> 01:05:21.719
It's the introduction of Ezri Dax.

1520
01:05:21.780 --> 01:05:27.300
It's Kira doing the blockade against, um, oh, it's the blockade

1521
01:05:27.300 --> 01:05:27.780
against, again?

1522
01:05:27.840 --> 01:05:28.619
I't remember now.

1523
01:05:28.679 --> 01:05:29.940
Oh, it's the Romulans?

1524
01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:32.639
Yeah, Kira against the Romulans. which is amazing.

1525
01:05:32.699 --> 01:05:34.559
There's lots going on.

1526
01:05:34.619 --> 01:05:37.800
It's Wharf getting over the death of Dax and going on a mission

1527
01:05:37.800 --> 01:05:40.440
with Quark to get her into Stovercore.

1528
01:05:40.500 --> 01:05:41.820
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1529
01:05:41.880 --> 01:05:43.860
I think that sounds great.

1530
01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:45.780
And technically, it is a 3 part.

1531
01:05:45.900 --> 01:05:48.599
We won't do all three, but actually, the last episode of series 6

1532
01:05:48.599 --> 01:05:52.559
and then the 1st 2 of season seven, it is one massive story.

1533
01:05:53.400 --> 01:05:56.219
But I think we should do one and 2 of seven.

1534
01:05:56.280 --> 01:05:58.679
Yeah, I'm absolutely on board with that.

1535
01:05:58.739 --> 01:05:59.340
Let's do that.

1536
01:05:59.400 --> 01:06:03.599
Let's do so series series 7, episodes one and 2 of Deep Space

1537
01:06:03.599 --> 01:06:03.960
Nine.

1538
01:06:04.019 --> 01:06:07.079
I think that's hang time too, because it's sort of shifting a lot

1539
01:06:07.079 --> 01:06:09.059
of...

1540
01:06:10.139 --> 01:06:15.059
I think it's one of those examples where DS9 juggles a lot of

1541
01:06:15.059 --> 01:06:15.719
plots.

1542
01:06:16.199 --> 01:06:21.659
It builds up some serious momentum and it pays off everyone really

1543
01:06:21.659 --> 01:06:22.199
well.

1544
01:06:22.260 --> 01:06:27.300
I think this is quietly and extremely, extremely good DS92 par.

1545
01:06:27.360 --> 01:06:28.980
All right, I'm up for it.

1546
01:06:29.039 --> 01:06:30.179
Let's do it.

1547
01:06:39.539 --> 01:06:43.860
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford

1548
01:06:43.860 --> 01:06:45.179
and Nathan Bottomley.

1549
01:06:45.239 --> 01:06:48.599
We're online at untitledstar trekproject.com where you can find

1550
01:06:48.599 --> 01:06:51.059
links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.

1551
01:06:51.119 --> 01:06:54.719
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was

1552
01:06:54.719 --> 01:06:56.699
composed by Cameron Lamb.

1553
01:06:56.760 --> 01:07:00.659
This episode was recorded on the 24th of August 2022 and released

1554
01:07:00.659 --> 01:07:01.920
on the 9th of September.

1555
01:07:02.039 --> 01:07:06.719
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Deep Space 9, Image in the

1556
01:07:06.719 --> 01:07:08.639
Sand and Shadows and Symbols.

1557
01:07:21.420 --> 01:07:25.559
Okay, I'm going to keep bringing that button till I get Admiral

1558
01:07:25.559 --> 01:07:26.219
Nachev.

1559
01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:26.880
Told you.

1560
01:07:27.900 --> 01:07:29.760
How do you know?

1561
01:07:31.079 --> 01:07:31.679
Oh, is she?

1562
01:07:31.800 --> 01:07:35.940
Yeah, she's in the search part too.

1563
01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:36.840
Yeah.

1564
01:07:36.900 --> 01:07:37.320
Okay.

1565
01:07:39.239 --> 01:07:44.280
We've signed a piece packed with a Dominion and I'm giving you a

1566
01:07:44.280 --> 01:07:45.719
promotion.

1567
01:07:45.780 --> 01:07:47.880
Congratulations, captains of girls.

1568
01:07:47.940 --> 01:07:49.320
Is she the one who makes the announcement?

1569
01:07:49.380 --> 01:07:50.880
It's all a fake.

1570
01:07:50.940 --> 01:07:51.599
It a big con.

1571
01:07:51.659 --> 01:07:53.039
They're all strapped to a VR machine.

1572
01:07:53.099 --> 01:07:54.480
Oh, okay.

1573
01:07:54.539 --> 01:07:56.579
I thought she might be a shapeshifter.

1574
01:07:56.639 --> 01:07:59.219
So they do all of these mad changes and you think, what's going on

1575
01:07:59.219 --> 01:08:00.960
with DS9 in the beginning of series three?

1576
01:08:01.019 --> 01:08:03.239
They collapse the wormhile and all this stuff's going on.

1577
01:08:03.300 --> 01:08:04.980
You're like, oh, okay, yeah.

1578
01:08:05.039 --> 01:08:06.059
It was all a dream.

1579
01:08:06.119 --> 01:08:07.980
Oh, that's a shame.

1580
01:08:08.039 --> 01:08:09.420
Yeah.

1581
01:08:09.780 --> 01:08:15.840
Yes, I had sort of hope that she would be the... oh, anyway.

1582
01:08:15.900 --> 01:08:17.579
Oh, Brendan has a question for us, by the way.

1583
01:08:17.640 --> 01:08:19.079
Well, for this episode?

1584
01:08:19.140 --> 01:08:26.039
No, just if it comes up, but it is why, uh, Noonian Song, Al

1585
01:08:26.039 --> 01:08:32.880
Tansung, and Adam Song, all identical to one another.

1586
01:08:33.239 --> 01:08:37.140
Except for Noonian song who looks like Brent Spiner in a big kind

1587
01:08:37.140 --> 01:08:40.079
of latex sack.

1588
01:08:40.140 --> 01:08:41.939
Genetic engineering.

1589
01:08:42.000 --> 01:08:42.960
Do you think?

1590
01:08:43.020 --> 01:08:45.479
That's what he, yeah, I think, I think probably.

1591
01:08:45.539 --> 01:08:49.380
Or maybe they just wanted to cast Brent and they didn't really

1592
01:08:49.380 --> 01:08:49.859
give a shit.

1593
01:08:49.920 --> 01:08:51.300
Oh, that's my theory.

1594
01:08:51.359 --> 01:08:54.899
I think that is exactly right. correct, dad.

1595
01:08:54.960 --> 01:08:55.560
That's right.

1596
01:08:55.619 --> 01:08:58.739
It's just like, Brent wants to be in that.

1597
01:08:58.800 --> 01:09:01.140
Break wants some work.

1598
01:09:01.199 --> 01:09:01.979
Oh, wow.

1599
01:09:01.979 --> 01:09:05.159
Yeah, well, we're getting up soon out of the cupboards.

1600
01:09:05.220 --> 01:09:05.760
Yeah, that's true.

1601
01:09:05.819 --> 01:09:08.520
To be fair, though, half the time when he plays it, when he does

1602
01:09:08.520 --> 01:09:13.020
soon in the augments trilogy in Enterprise. he brilliant.

1603
01:09:13.079 --> 01:09:15.539
He's really different as Adam.

1604
01:09:15.600 --> 01:09:19.380
I mean, like Adam's song in series 2 of Picard is that's a stupid

1605
01:09:19.380 --> 01:09:20.760
weird character, but like whatever.

1606
01:09:20.819 --> 01:09:23.159
Is he to warm down on that Android planet?

1607
01:09:23.220 --> 01:09:27.239
No, that's that's Alton's song.

1608
01:09:27.300 --> 01:09:31.619
There's the other song in 2022. who is...

1609
01:09:31.739 --> 01:09:33.060
Well, there's an awful lot of zooms out there.

1610
01:09:33.119 --> 01:09:38.100
I'm telling you, who is who's the father of not Soji, whatever

1611
01:09:38.100 --> 01:09:38.640
she's called.

1612
01:09:38.699 --> 01:09:40.020
Anyway, the same woman.

1613
01:09:40.079 --> 01:09:41.279
What's her face?

1614
01:09:41.760 --> 01:09:42.300
Yeah.

1615
01:09:42.420 --> 01:09:44.699
All right, let's properly do this.

1616
01:09:45.420 --> 01:09:49.680
I think that that's a tag so that Brendan, so that, because

1617
01:09:49.680 --> 01:09:51.239
Brendan said we should talk about it.

1618
01:09:51.239 --> 01:09:54.300
And I think we should get that in at the end. don't you reckon?

1619
01:09:54.359 --> 01:09:54.600
Yeah.

1620
01:09:54.659 --> 01:09:58.079
So he doesn't have to wait until we get the augment.

1621
01:09:58.140 --> 01:09:59.100
Fistful of zooms.

1622
01:09:59.159 --> 01:10:00.479
That's right.

1623
01:10:00.479 --> 01:10:05.939
All right, here goes.