WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-06 at 22:46:36

1
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Hey, Joe. Hi.

2
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So, who thought we would be back aboard Voyager so soon?

3
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I know, right?

4
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In season one territory as well.

5
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Yeah.

6
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Potentially dodgy.

7
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Actually, it's quite the reverse, isn't it?

8
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Yeah, I was hugely surprised.

9
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I knew that I liked Cesca and so this is an episode brought to you by the Martha Hackett Appreciation Society.

10
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She really she's incredibly great.

11
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Do you remember it was that Romulan in Dig Space 9?

12
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Oh, I can picture her.

13
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She appeared in the search part one and she was supposed to be a regular on DS9 and then the role of Cesca came up.

14
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They poached her for Voyager.

15
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So we've got an even better role for you.

16
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And she's really good.

17
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She's really great.

18
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She is terrific.

19
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I think for me watching this.

20
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It reminded me that the Voyager premise was interesting.

21
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And not just kind of, oh, you know, there's McKee so we can have fights and stuff like that.

22
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But, you know, they're stranded somewhere.

23
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They don't know anyone.

24
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They're surrounded by enemies, their supplies are limited.

25
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And there's a lot of people out there who are dissatisfied with the decision that Janeway made to strand them there, kind of deliberately.

26
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And I think it's a premise that really informs this episode and makes it really good.

27
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I said to you, when we very 1st started talking about Voyager, was that this was a premise with potential, that you watch Caretaker and you say, wow, this has got legs.

28
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They can really run with this.

29
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Now, admittedly, it was Battlestar Galactica that ran with the premise and Voyager, essentially, after series 2 went for, let's do a load of, you know, TNG light episodes.

30
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Yeah.

31
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But there are a couple of episodes in series one and there are a couple of episodes in series 2 that really lean into this premise of being stuck out in the wilderness and descent amongst the crew and the idea that they do need to make alliances with people in order to survive out here.

32
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And this episode.

33
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This is one of 2 back-to-back episodes.

34
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I said this at the tag at the in the last episode.

35
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You got Prime Factors, which is about acquiring technology to escape the Delta Quadrant back to the Alpha Quadrant and that going horribly wrong.

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And Cesca's a big part of that.

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Cesca's the person that basically says, no, I don't care if Jane Way saying, no, we're going to go down and steal it.

38
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And she convinces Balana Torres to go down there and get it.

39
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But the twist of that one is that Chewbox got there 1st and he's like, no, I'm going down to get it.

40
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And then he gives up fantastic reasons as to why he did that in a brilliant scene with K-Moll group.

41
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Sorry, I digress.

42
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No, no, no, I want to just say one thing.

43
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Those aliens in prime factors are later all assimilated by the Borg as we discover in Picard season one.

44
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No, for real, happy ending.

45
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Oh my god.

46
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Because that man, that man in that episode, right?

47
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So annoying.

48
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It's like...

49
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I've got to speak to my government, Captain.

50
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You see, he talks in this very strange way.

51
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Yeah, yeah.

52
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The way she says when she gives him a gift from Voyager.

53
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She goes, I'm going to give you a gift.

54
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Pecan pie.

55
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Honestly.

56
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I hope we can make any line of absolute.

57
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Anyway.

58
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But that leans into the premise.

59
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And then this one does too.

60
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This is about a traitor on Voyager that's made contact with the Kazon, and I think this is the 1st time the Kazon are in it since caretaker as well.

61
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Oh okay.

62
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Yeah.

63
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And it's a big mystery.

64
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Well, I mean, much of a mystery.

65
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Originally, this episode was got to be called Cesca.

66
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Do you know that?

67
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Ah, that would have given it away. would have blown, it would have been like a, you know, a Pyro episode, a Pyro story with the killer of the title.

68
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You know, it's a bit daft.

69
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But the suspense of there's somebody in our ranks that's working against us.

70
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It works really, really well in this episode.

71
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And I think there are enough layers and there's enough sort of red herring. to make the payoff very satisfying.

72
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I have to say that I had watched this before.

73
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Obviously, I've watched all of Voyager.

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Mostly back in the day.

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I haven't revisited a lot of episodes since then.

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And I had kind of forgotten the twist and it worked on me and it was a bit of a relief.

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I just thought, oh, Chakota, you're being a massive dumbass.

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What's the point of view?

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And then it turns out that they were a step ahead.

80
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And in a way, it has the same sort of resolution as counterpoint where we see kind of Janeway apparently defeated only to discover that she's actually already sorted things out.

81
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And so the same thing happens here and it's really satisfying, I think.

82
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Well, it's more satisfying because she goes, like, wonderful moment.

83
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Yeah, when she utterly condemns Janeway Chakotay and the Federation in one amazing spot.

84
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But what is very unvoyager like is how they set this up.

85
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So Cesca's been in 4 episodes before this.

86
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Yep.

87
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And that's not live Voyager to kind of sit on a surprise for that long.

88
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And Carey, who is the other person that's implicated in this episode.

89
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In an episode earlier in the season, it's him and Blam Torres, via the chief engineer position, but there's like a whole subplot about it, and then obviously he loses out to her.

90
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So you can actually buy into the idea that he might have done it.

91
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So that's been set up as well.

92
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So they're using a lot of stuff that they've already kind of embedded in the season to give this very satisfying power.

93
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They don't do this at all.

94
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Sort of post-series 2.

95
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They do not, they don't do long form storytelling like this at all.

96
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It is just sort of one stand loan after another.

97
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Yeah, it's a bit of a shame.

98
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It's the pillar effect.

99
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I'm telling you, I know I talk about Michael Pillar a lot, but he had a big hand in this episode and he had a big hand in structuring series one and series two, which is where the sort of the big arcs are in Voyager.

100
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And he's very, very proud of this episode.

101
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So is Rick Berman, but Jerry Taylor, interestingly.

102
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She didn't like it?

103
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She's quoted as saying, I thought it was okay.

104
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Wow.

105
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Whereas the next episode, which is a comedy episode about the doctor playing Beowulf, she's quoted as saying was absolutely fantastic.

106
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So you can see where her head is, is that she's she's thinking what the audience wants and the way TV is going, is where it was 10 years ago. sort of these standalone, fun, family friendly sort of Star Trek.

107
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Whereas Pillar is trying to push this show in a more interesting direction, a more sort of dynamic storytelling direction.

108
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And you've got the 2 of them fighting here.

109
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So in series one and 2 of Voyager, you get a mix of really interesting sort of experiments and terribly bland standalones.

110
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Yeah, I mean, if you think about Star Trek or Star Trek, the Next Generation or Strange New Worlds.

111
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Their premises there's a Starfleet ship that is going from planet to planet doing things.

112
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And it's a really light premise and it just means we can do Star Trek episodes.

113
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But Voyager starts with a much heavier premise than that.

114
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And so does Deep Space Nine.

115
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You know, they're set in specific places with people who've undergone a particular kind of thing, which makes them both different from just a normal Star Trek show.

116
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And what we get here is a kind of battle between are we a Star Trek show or are we a show set in the Star Trek universe?

117
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And the great thing about Voyager, I think, as a premise is it can do both.

118
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And what it decides to do is just throw away the premise eventually.

119
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And I think that's a shame.

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And you've got Deep Space 9, you know, on the other side, on the other network, amassing this massive cast of secondary characters, creating an interesting world, doing things with the premise and exploring things.

121
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And Voyager throws that away.

122
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And in a way, I wonder if it's inevitable or not.

123
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Because I certainly remember at the time. us thinking, well, what happens?

124
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Aren't they going to move out of K's on Space, they're a ship that's voyaging, they're going somewhere.

125
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And maybe that was inevitable that this particular threat goes away.

126
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And certainly it seems satisfying when they deal with them when we move out of Kazon space altogether and start meeting the Boma and stuff like that.

127
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But, you know, do you remember the Beaumont Arc?

128
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That was riveting, wasn't it?

129
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Yeah. the episode where they all had to dress up as Beaumar and put Waco hangers around the reds.

130
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Oh, that was amazing.

131
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Terrific stuff.

132
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But, you know, like when you look back at Voyager, I think the problem ends up not being so much that they lean into doing Star Trek, but that, it's just not as well done as it could have been.

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And under Michael Pillar, even if we moved away from the Kazon, we would have found more interesting arcs and more complex things and maybe an attempt to make the ship seem a bit more lived in as well.

134
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But what Pillar was doing, he was starting to amass a number of like reoccurring characters, like Cesca, like colour, like Pseudo, the serial killer.

135
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And I think that would have continued.

136
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But obviously, he left and they wiped everybody out and se levi.

137
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It's a bit of a double-sided coin, Voyager, isn't it?

138
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Because like to walk away from the premise means that it's exciting because you get a new threat. like the ball come along or the hierogen.

139
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But you don't amass that sort of backstory and continuity.

140
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There's nothing to play about with.

141
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You're constantly resetting all the time.

142
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So it's just, it doesn't have the substance or the depth of something like DS9 or even TNG.

143
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Yeah, I mean, TNG doesn't have a massive kind of cast of semi-regulars really, certainly not to the extent that DS9 doesn't.

144
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More than you think, you know, if you look at it, it's more than you think.

145
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Well, I mean, we get Samantha and Naomi Wildman eventually and we get the born kiddies and stuff.

146
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So there are, you know, well, yeah, I know, great, eh?

147
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So I guess there's that, but there isn't really an attempt to deal with what it's like to be stranded, you know.

148
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And here there is.

149
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Yeah, that's such a shame.

150
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And like I said to you on our chat that this is one of a handful of episodes that is uniquely Voyager.

151
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Like this could not be any other Star Trek show.

152
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And I think there's probably as many episodes of DS9.

153
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Like DS9, probably about 2 thirds are uniquely DS9, you know?

154
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And Voyager is probably about 15, 10, 15 episodes, maybe.

155
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And most of them are in the 1st 2 series, either needle, um, oh, good, God, help me out now.

156
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Basics, part one is uniquely Voyager.

157
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And then sort of in latter seasons, you get the odd one, like timeless, where they're stranded on the ice planet.

158
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That's one where they're trying to go home and using technology goes horribly wrong, but they're few and far between, aren't they?

159
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Well, yeah, and eventually I think probably the whole bulk of that arc is shouldered by Dwight Schultz and Marina in the semi-regular episodes that vary.

160
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Yeah, that's another one.

161
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And like those are fun, but we never really get the sense because it's just going to be a Starfleet crew and they're all going to be the best of the best and, you know, none of them feels homesick or anything like that.

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So we never really, really get a proper feel for what the premise could have been.

163
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And in a way, I ended up thinking that maybe we're in the Delta Quadrant just to get out of Deep Space 9's way so that Deep Space 9 can do things that don't affect Voyager and vice versa.

164
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I was reading about the conception of Voyager this morning and they're quoted as saying, well, we need to do something new.

165
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We just can't do next generation again. ironic.

166
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So let's go to a completely new region of space.

167
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And they said they wanted to tap into like the original series where they're on that five-year mission and they were going out and exploring space for the 1st time and this, you know, that's what the Delta Quadrant is. a brand new region of space.

168
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But then they did go and make a load of TNG episodes.

169
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Yeah.

170
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Yeah.

171
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Yeah, no.

172
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I think when they realised the ratings, you know, they weren't holding.

173
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They were like, well, I guess people just want more TNG.

174
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Let's do that instead.

175
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And what's annoying is you get to like end game.

176
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Even endgame isn't uniquely apology.

177
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Yeah, they're trying to get home, but what is it?

178
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It's a time travel episode.

179
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There's 2 Janeways and it's the Bork.

180
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Yeah.

181
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That's all TNG, you know?

182
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Yeah, yeah.

183
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Yeah.

184
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It's sad.

185
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Anyway, let's not talk about, you know, in the future.

186
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Let's talk about now because I'll tell you what, this has got Cesca in it and she's amazing.

187
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Yeah, this is a pretty great episode.

188
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All right, what do you think?

189
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Should I count us in?

190
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I think we've rented enough.

191
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All right.

192
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Well, here goes five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

193
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Do you know, I only ran, you know, I only ran because I, you know, of the untapped potential because in episodes like this, it shows the potential was there.

194
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So here we are in southern California in a very, very low-even planet, but we're outside.

195
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I was so excited.

196
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So excited.

197
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The 2nd they started, right?

198
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and they're on location.

199
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I just saw your face beaming.

200
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But it is a pretty shitty planet.

201
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And actually, I think that Neelix is super annoying here and he's...

202
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No, wait.

203
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He gets a great physical joke, though.

204
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He's talking about a horrible stick.

205
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There he is, pointing in his dick. penis.

206
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Yeah, it's so funny.

207
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What do you think?

208
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Chakotay grabs his arm so he doesn't kind of go in for a feel.

209
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Like, what's happening there?

210
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Like, anyway.

211
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That's Rick Berman there.

212
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I think so.

213
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So here we are.

214
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None of that.

215
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Leola root, it turns out, is is ginger painted inexpertly yellow with a leaf stuck on the end.

216
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The amount of jokes they get out of their fucking...

217
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We're talking about Leola root stew for the next 7 years.

218
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Get used to it.

219
00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:13.799
Yeah, that's true.

220
00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:14.580
Yeah.

221
00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:17.039
Oh, well, that's a peculiarly voyager thing.

222
00:15:17.100 --> 00:15:28.500
Can I say how stupid these uniforms look when you have a tricorder and a gun like in your pocket sticking out in front of you?

223
00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:30.600
Like, they look so stupid.

224
00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:35.940
They make them look like pyjamas more than they usually do, I think.

225
00:15:36.059 --> 00:15:37.080
They're pretty terrible.

226
00:15:37.139 --> 00:15:44.940
Can I say how appalling it is that we are, you know, this is one of the 1st chances of a voyager to go out. you know, the voyager crew to get out in the sun and all that.

227
00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:52.919
And we're not actually, you know, I know you're going to say I'm comparing this unfavourably to Enterprises Strange New World.

228
00:15:52.980 --> 00:15:55.500
But at least when they got out of the runabout in that.

229
00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:58.019
They were excited to be outside in the fresh air.

230
00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:00.779
That bunch are just scavenging around looking a bit bored.

231
00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:08.820
Yeah, there's, well, I mean, part of the problem is just that the planet looks so boring, but, you know, what can you do?

232
00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:13.320
at the end of the season, right, in the 37s, I might see, I think it's the beginning of season two.

233
00:16:13.379 --> 00:16:17.340
They land Voyager on Southern California.

234
00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:18.480
Yes, yeah.

235
00:16:18.539 --> 00:16:20.580
It's great to see Voyager Land.

236
00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:21.480
I love how it can do that.

237
00:16:21.539 --> 00:16:22.259
That is pretty cool.

238
00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:26.340
Dreadful episode, though, but it does look pretty spectacular, I've got to say, for the time.

239
00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:28.259
Okay, so here we go.

240
00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:31.200
Neelix wants to bring back bloodworms for his tartar.

241
00:16:31.259 --> 00:16:33.240
So that means raw.

242
00:16:33.299 --> 00:16:34.379
Raw blood worm.

243
00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:35.279
Yeah, yeah.

244
00:16:35.340 --> 00:16:37.980
Oh, I don't know. isn't that like black pudding?

245
00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:40.259
Oh, I don't know. blood, isn't it?

246
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:41.940
Yeah, but you don't eat that raw though, do you?

247
00:16:42.299 --> 00:16:43.799
Not sure.

248
00:16:43.860 --> 00:16:44.639
He's delicious.

249
00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:48.299
So, uh, the Kazon are approaching.

250
00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:50.039
Cajon ships are on their way.

251
00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:51.240
Or is there one here?

252
00:16:51.299 --> 00:16:51.899
And there's one here already.

253
00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:52.620
Yeah, isn't it?

254
00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:53.279
It's invisible.

255
00:16:53.340 --> 00:16:54.000
We don't know why.

256
00:16:54.779 --> 00:16:57.299
Are they got cloaking devices then?

257
00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:06.240
No, there's actually dialogue in here about this, that there's that someone has taught them how to avoid Voyager's senses.

258
00:17:06.299 --> 00:17:08.160
So, yes.

259
00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:09.480
Well, I wonder who that was.

260
00:17:09.539 --> 00:17:10.440
I no idea.

261
00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:13.740
Everybody seems to be here except for one person.

262
00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:14.579
Yeah.

263
00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:17.700
And we're establishing Joe Carey here.

264
00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:24.240
And so he apparently just disappears from the show and then just comes back in series 6 to be killed.

265
00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:27.180
He vanishes in series two, right?

266
00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:30.900
Seriously, when it comes back for one episode, then they kill him off.

267
00:17:31.380 --> 00:17:32.579
Oh, seriously, haven't is it?

268
00:17:32.579 --> 00:17:34.380
Come on, Cap, so miserable.

269
00:17:34.980 --> 00:17:43.920
Yeah, I'm kind of hoping that we get a few more people on board the Enterprise in Strange New World's next series.

270
00:17:43.980 --> 00:17:51.420
We've had some sort of regular background people and we had, you know, what's his face, Kirk's brother.

271
00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:53.220
But it'd be kind of nice.

272
00:17:53.279 --> 00:18:03.420
I do like, you know, the extra characters just, it's always the same 7 people doing every fucking thing on these stupid starships and it's kind of nice if we have more people.

273
00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:04.440
Is this a set?

274
00:18:04.500 --> 00:18:05.880
I don't think this is insane.

275
00:18:05.940 --> 00:18:08.279
I think I think these caves are real.

276
00:18:08.339 --> 00:18:10.799
I think that what they...

277
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:12.299
Yeah, because you can see...

278
00:18:12.299 --> 00:18:13.140
It comes around the corner now.

279
00:18:13.259 --> 00:18:15.839
Yeah, he's gone from outside.

280
00:18:15.900 --> 00:18:18.539
The camera's gone from outside in and then they're dripping.

281
00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:19.440
Yeah, yeah.

282
00:18:19.500 --> 00:18:25.140
And that doesn't normally happen in your stocks Star Trek cave number 52. number one, obviously.

283
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:26.819
I think that...

284
00:18:26.819 --> 00:18:40.019
I think we may actually move to the cave set because I'm not convinced by whatever that big, big ass fucking stalagmite is there that looks like it's made out of...

285
00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:41.579
I think the lighting's very good here.

286
00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:42.480
And I do like the dripping.

287
00:18:42.539 --> 00:18:43.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

288
00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:44.519
It does make it real.

289
00:18:44.579 --> 00:18:45.960
No, no, I think it makes it real.

290
00:18:46.019 --> 00:18:49.140
It makes it less like I said. you know, like there's water in it.

291
00:18:49.259 --> 00:18:49.859
I think that helps.

292
00:18:50.279 --> 00:19:00.539
See, now, look, I wouldn't have bought into this, the whole thing about, oh, I was picking mushrooms for you to make your soup, but then they pay that off after the title music.

293
00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:01.680
We were a great scene.

294
00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:03.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

295
00:19:03.059 --> 00:19:07.619
And that's a really important scene for the episode because it establishes their relationship.

296
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:09.420
Yeah, I think it's good.

297
00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:10.680
I really enjoyed it, actually.

298
00:19:10.740 --> 00:19:14.279
I think, you know, anyway, it's a bit cheesily.

299
00:19:14.339 --> 00:19:18.779
I think at this point we don't know enough about the caison for them to be annoying.

300
00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:24.000
Like, I think they, there's an episode in series 2 called initiations, I want to say.

301
00:19:24.059 --> 00:19:27.839
It's got Aaron Eisenberg in it as a young case of warrior.

302
00:19:27.900 --> 00:19:29.640
Is he called a bad character episode?

303
00:19:29.700 --> 00:19:30.900
It's called Kai.

304
00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:32.519
Dumb name for that.

305
00:19:32.579 --> 00:19:39.720
But that is the episode that really establishes them as like cod Klingons and they've just got rituals and it's basically just the Klingons.

306
00:19:39.779 --> 00:19:43.859
Whereas in series one, season one, you don't really see that much of them.

307
00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:48.119
So they're kind of like a background menace more than anything.

308
00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:58.980
Yeah, I mean, even giving them the 1st letter and the same, like the same 1st letter and the same last 2 letters, like Klingon Kazon, seems like a dumb idea.

309
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:01.619
And like there is that...

310
00:20:01.619 --> 00:20:03.779
And the one, the makeup's pretty similar as well, isn't it?

311
00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:05.160
Yeah, bumpy forehead.

312
00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:06.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

313
00:20:06.180 --> 00:20:07.980
So when we meet the tribe.

314
00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:09.720
Do you remember what episode that is?

315
00:20:09.779 --> 00:20:11.279
Oh, my.

316
00:20:11.339 --> 00:20:12.720
It's a great episode as well.

317
00:20:12.779 --> 00:20:14.220
Oh my god, what's it called?

318
00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:16.500
Because it's halfway through season two.

319
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:28.380
It's the one where Janeway, you know, makes friendship with the train, and then she's like, right, we're going to bring all the sex together and then the train, you'll try and wipe them all out. with a massive spaceship that comes down and tries to destroy the room they're in.

320
00:20:28.500 --> 00:20:36.119
And it's kind of terrible because it's kind of like, oh, these are nice white people and we're going to be their friends.

321
00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:46.980
And it turns out, you know, that the tribal people who are all fighting one another have just been routinely kind of oppressed and exploited by the trade.

322
00:20:47.099 --> 00:20:48.059
It's really good.

323
00:20:48.059 --> 00:20:52.140
The guy playing like the head train is so amiable.

324
00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:53.220
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

325
00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:55.140
And it just turns out he's horrifically evil.

326
00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:55.920
It's wonderful.

327
00:20:55.980 --> 00:20:57.180
Alliances.

328
00:20:57.240 --> 00:20:58.319
That's what the episode is called.

329
00:20:58.319 --> 00:20:58.980
Alliances.

330
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:00.599
Oh, it's a fantastic episode.

331
00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:03.119
State of flux.

332
00:21:03.180 --> 00:21:14.460
What does that mean in this Well, I actually think. that it's that the relationships among the crew are in a state of flux.

333
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:35.819
And it looks like it's a title about space things, but there's no real space things, it's, you know, we're in a state of flux, that Chakotay is having to deal with the fact that he's 2nd in command, but also the commander of the McKee, you know, the former captain of the McKee ship or whatever.

334
00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:39.000
So I think that that's what it's about because I can't think what else it is.

335
00:21:39.059 --> 00:21:41.339
There's nothing spicy that I forget.

336
00:21:41.579 --> 00:21:47.819
The, if this episode would be a lot poorer without the scene that we're watching right now.

337
00:21:47.880 --> 00:22:03.660
So it's the scene where Cesca brings Chakotay mushroom soup and details how with a, you know, clandestine marquee operation, they managed gain access to Neelix's kitchen. with a wonderful comedy moment where she goes, well, the emergency must be over.

338
00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:06.119
So, and then it's like, you need extra.

339
00:22:06.180 --> 00:22:08.279
I thought that was really well timed.

340
00:22:08.339 --> 00:22:08.819
That was good.

341
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:10.559
That's been in my kitchen.

342
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:35.940
I actually wondered whether they cut the actual thing where they steal the mushrooms, and then just turned it into this Messenger speech from Cesca, because it does seem extremely detailed, and it just seems like maybe it was a scene, and maybe it might have been better if we'd seen it rather than having Cesca come in and just talk about it.

343
00:22:36.059 --> 00:22:39.480
But this scene makes me like Cesca a lot.

344
00:22:39.539 --> 00:22:41.700
Like she's really fun in this scene.

345
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:50.579
And actually, this is the thing, which makes me think, oh, Chakotay, because he's laughing with her until it gets to the point where she kind of breaks the rules and then he's like, right, you're having no replicators.

346
00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:51.839
How should I say, come on?

347
00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:58.619
Except though, that we're in a situation here where things are scarce.

348
00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:06.299
And so she's taking stuff. that, you know, she's taking other people's share, essentially.

349
00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:13.920
And essentially, she's also kind of leading into that divide between the marquee and the federation as well, isn't she?

350
00:23:13.980 --> 00:23:15.900
Like, this was a marquee operation we're going in.

351
00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:16.440
We're doing this.

352
00:23:16.500 --> 00:23:19.619
And you, you know, your ex-marquis, and we're doing this for you.

353
00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:21.000
It's, I get it.

354
00:23:21.059 --> 00:23:34.859
Yeah, I know it looks, I, I, like I know that it looks like it's a conflict between marquee values and federation values, but I also think it is like she is stealing stuff from the other crew members.

355
00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:55.259
And later on, when we get to the speech where she denounces the Federation, what she's denouncing the Federation for, or what she's denouncing Janeway for, is refusing to allow the Kazon to kill Orleocampers, because that was the, that's the moral dilemma at the end of Caretaker.

356
00:23:55.380 --> 00:23:59.279
Well, she says the incomprehensible decision of a Starfleet captain.

357
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:03.000
This is being a Cardassian ship, we'd have been home by now when you kind of go now.

358
00:24:03.059 --> 00:24:04.920
That's the fucking point though, isn't it?

359
00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:08.400
And so, I don't know, though.

360
00:24:08.460 --> 00:24:11.759
I just, she's so much more charismatic than anyone else, I just want to listen to her.

361
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:12.900
What she up, say, you know.

362
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:16.380
That's how all good, you know, dictators start.

363
00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:18.420
Yeah, yeah, they're very likeable people.

364
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:24.240
Well, I think, actually, Janeway can, uh, our does are enormously.

365
00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:27.900
It's just wonderful acting moments in this.

366
00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:34.619
But when she comes up behind him and gives him a hug there and she kind of shuts her eyes and actually buy the relationship.

367
00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:36.240
Yeah, we didn't know about it before now.

368
00:24:36.299 --> 00:24:41.160
No, I don't think I think I think there was kind of hens and whispers.

369
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:45.420
But no, it's never been explicitly stated until this point.

370
00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:49.140
And I was kind of like, okay, this is nice, and this is believable.

371
00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:54.000
And so throughout him kind of having his head turn by her.

372
00:24:54.059 --> 00:24:55.380
It makes sense.

373
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:56.519
He's got feelings for her.

374
00:24:56.579 --> 00:24:58.079
You know, he doesn't want to believe it.

375
00:24:58.140 --> 00:25:03.720
And it's not until there's incontrovertible proof that he actually, you know, turns against her.

376
00:25:03.779 --> 00:25:09.599
And she says, and I'm inclined to think that we're meant to believe her that she had feelings for him as well.

377
00:25:09.660 --> 00:25:10.799
She wasn't just faking it.

378
00:25:10.859 --> 00:25:12.119
I believe that too though.

379
00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:15.299
I think that... what the show wants us to believe.

380
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:19.680
She's explloiting him and she has been for a long time.

381
00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:25.019
But somewhere along the line, she genuinely had feelings for him.

382
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:26.819
Oh, yeah.

383
00:25:26.819 --> 00:25:28.079
Oh, I love this bit in the minute.

384
00:25:28.140 --> 00:25:32.759
Not only because the lighting is extremely dramatic.

385
00:25:32.819 --> 00:25:42.420
We were talking last week about how, you know, it can be quite flat in 90s trek. like beam onto the Cazon ship and it's all very X-Files. torches going and stuff.

386
00:25:42.539 --> 00:25:53.759
Not only that, but you like Roger didn't really throw much kind of crazy imagery at you and the image of the Kazon sticking out of a bit of stone is really ghoulish.

387
00:25:53.819 --> 00:25:55.619
Yeah, that is pretty good, isn't it?

388
00:25:55.680 --> 00:26:00.900
Because, I mean, we've had this, you know, wrecked spaceship set that we go on to investigate.

389
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:06.119
And they've got sort of sexier torches now in Voyager than they had in NextGen.

390
00:26:06.180 --> 00:26:10.019
Remember next gen they have the square ones that they have to hold in their hand and stuff?

391
00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:15.119
They've got these sort of double barrelled ones that are strapped to their wrist or something which seem a bit cooler.

392
00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:18.960
But I mean, this is the sort of set that we've seen before in Star Trek.

393
00:26:19.019 --> 00:26:22.140
This is the sort of thing we know that they can do.

394
00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:25.200
But this is super strange, isn't it?

395
00:26:25.259 --> 00:26:25.680
Great.

396
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:29.220
The way the guy's cheek is literally fused into the stone.

397
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:31.259
Yeah, yeah, really scary.

398
00:26:31.319 --> 00:26:35.160
And obviously it makes the point that they are not capable of handling this technology.

399
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:36.720
Yeah.

400
00:26:36.779 --> 00:26:37.559
Yeah.

401
00:26:37.619 --> 00:26:39.119
I think it's partly Cesca's fault.

402
00:26:39.539 --> 00:26:43.799
Why, do you think she gave them the wrong instructions for trying to bob some of them off?

403
00:26:43.859 --> 00:26:44.519
I don't know.

404
00:26:44.579 --> 00:26:46.680
So we learn that it doesn't have property.

405
00:26:46.740 --> 00:26:57.839
I think that this is the most disturbing for here. is that if you don't properly shield, your food replicator, it really will just kind of meld you into the floor and shit.

406
00:26:57.900 --> 00:26:58.859
That does seem.

407
00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:03.480
That's good as well, because you're probably thinking, well, you know, she's trying to give them weapons or something like that.

408
00:27:03.539 --> 00:27:09.599
So the bit where, like, it's not until later in the episode, but Landisori says of all the things to lose your life over is a food replicator.

409
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:18.420
They established in caretaker, they don't have, like, they never follow up on this, but they don't have access to water.

410
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:25.319
So to have a food replicator, absolutely would change the balance of power amongst the Kazon sets.

411
00:27:25.380 --> 00:27:26.279
Yeah, that's right.

412
00:27:26.339 --> 00:27:28.319
Water's a big thing, isn't it, in that 1st episode?

413
00:27:28.380 --> 00:27:30.480
It's...

414
00:27:30.539 --> 00:27:34.980
Do you remember, he comes along and has a bath and goes, oh, so... to myself in water.

415
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:35.339
Yeah.

416
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:40.559
That's the 1st scene between Neelix and Chewbog. very funny.

417
00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:42.180
Well, he's in the bar.

418
00:27:42.299 --> 00:27:47.099
Can I get one of those replicators to have get a uniform like yours?

419
00:27:47.099 --> 00:27:50.519
and Chewbok just looks at him, deadpan and goes, no, you suddenly cannot.

420
00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:57.420
Although he did wear one in the last Voyager episode that we watched, which is kind of delightful.

421
00:27:57.660 --> 00:27:59.160
Did he?

422
00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:02.400
Yeah, he was a security officer in the future before and after.

423
00:28:02.460 --> 00:28:02.819
Yeah.

424
00:28:02.940 --> 00:28:08.880
Okay, so now they've taken the one remaining Cazon that's not fused into something.

425
00:28:08.940 --> 00:28:10.319
Yeah, to Sick Bay.

426
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:12.059
And he's not very well now.

427
00:28:12.539 --> 00:28:15.660
It's a great scene with him later as well, isn't it?

428
00:28:15.660 --> 00:28:16.740
When colour comes on the ship.

429
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:18.119
It's really good, isn't it?

430
00:28:18.180 --> 00:28:20.460
Because we spend a lot of time caring about this.

431
00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:27.299
So we want him to be alive partly because we're federation and we're great guys and stuff.

432
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:30.000
And like I'm not dismissing that. think that's a good thing.

433
00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:43.079
And in fact, colour gets told that, doesn't he, when it's kind of like everyone on the ship helped to donate blood or something or people on the ship donated blood in order to save this man.

434
00:28:43.140 --> 00:28:45.599
Yeah, like we've gone to great lengths to do that.

435
00:28:45.660 --> 00:28:49.980
And so it isn't just so that we can find out who sold you the replicator or whatever.

436
00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:52.019
Because, I mean, at this point they don't even know that.

437
00:28:52.079 --> 00:29:01.019
It's not explicitly stated because he's then killed after colour kills him when after that scene where she says that, you know, they donated blood.

438
00:29:01.079 --> 00:29:08.220
But I wonder if that, if that is part of the reason why, because they're shown later.

439
00:29:08.279 --> 00:29:13.140
Yeah, that they, you know, they, they don't want to, they, they like to keep themselves pure, you know?

440
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:13.680
Yeah.

441
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:21.059
But I think that it's because colour doesn't want Cesca to be outed. exposed.

442
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:21.779
Yeah.

443
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:23.400
I think that that's probably it.

444
00:29:23.460 --> 00:29:25.559
It isn't said explicitly why it happens.

445
00:29:25.619 --> 00:29:26.880
And it is a good scene.

446
00:29:26.940 --> 00:29:35.279
It is quite shocking, actually, because we have kind of invested a reasonable amount of time in the episode, you know, making sure that he's okay.

447
00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:38.940
And this, I love these things.

448
00:29:40.380 --> 00:29:40.799
So good.

449
00:29:40.859 --> 00:29:42.660
Look at her response to option three.

450
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:46.440
I don't like number 3 at all. number 3 at all.

451
00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:47.220
She's so good.

452
00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:50.220
And no other captain would have had to worry about this.

453
00:29:50.279 --> 00:29:52.920
This is not something that you would worry about.

454
00:29:52.980 --> 00:29:56.460
The crew are giving technology to other people.

455
00:29:56.460 --> 00:30:03.359
You could just toss them into prison if this was happening in the Alpha Quadrant, you know, you could absolutely hand them over to the authorities.

456
00:30:03.420 --> 00:30:03.960
There aren't.

457
00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:05.519
They are the authority here, you know?

458
00:30:05.579 --> 00:30:07.440
No one else would be motivated to do it.

459
00:30:07.500 --> 00:30:13.859
You live on a starship, you know, you get all those lovely meals and stuff and lovely quarters and things.

460
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:24.839
You know, no one's disaffected on border starship, but here there are people who are disaffected because they've been isolated from their families and stranded here because of a command decision, you know?

461
00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:28.859
And what's wonderful then is it just opens out suspicion onto everybody.

462
00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:32.940
But obviously, initially, they're all thinking, well, it's going to be a marquee member.

463
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:38.039
You know, they were forced onto this ship, into this situation, into this command structure.

464
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:41.339
But I mean, all of the Starfleet people.

465
00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:44.099
In fact, I think they make a good decision.

466
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:52.799
So eventually it just settles down to suspecting one of 2 people, one of whom is Starfleet and one of whom's a marquis.

467
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:55.559
And I...

468
00:30:55.559 --> 00:31:00.960
Like, even though in the back of our heads, because there's something in Marv Hacker's performance, that just means you know it's her.

469
00:31:01.019 --> 00:31:04.559
So the real suspense comes in how they're going to catch her out.

470
00:31:04.619 --> 00:31:12.240
But they play on that in the way that the story is designed, like in the way the story is resolved.

471
00:31:12.299 --> 00:31:25.500
The way that they find out that it's Cesca is because Cesca... tries to implicate herself in order to prove that it's scary, right?

472
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:29.339
And so I think that she seems too obvious.

473
00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:30.539
She's so villainous.

474
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:37.440
She's already been stealing food from other people on the ship, so we know that she's willing to steal things, you know?

475
00:31:37.500 --> 00:31:40.200
And so maybe that's too obvious.

476
00:31:40.259 --> 00:31:45.480
And so we start to suspect that it's really scary. which would be an anxiety twist.

477
00:31:45.539 --> 00:31:47.519
How long they wait?

478
00:31:47.579 --> 00:31:49.500
to come back after this.

479
00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:51.900
It's halfway through season two.

480
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:53.880
It's manoeuvres in season season two.

481
00:31:53.940 --> 00:31:55.259
So they're almost way off.

482
00:31:55.259 --> 00:31:59.099
Whole season, which makes her return, where she comes up.

483
00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:00.420
Hello, Chicone.

484
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:01.680
You're like, yes.

485
00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:06.480
And that's the 1st time you see her in full Cardassian makeup because obviously you don't see her in it.

486
00:32:06.539 --> 00:32:07.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

487
00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:13.019
And then we get a half season of all these Cesca appearances where she gets more grandiose.

488
00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:18.539
Yeah, yeah. leading up to basics, obviously, when they take over the ship and steal it.

489
00:32:18.599 --> 00:32:26.339
I still think one of the best scenes ever, in Chakotay in Voyagos, when she turns up and goes, and this is your baby, Chakotay.

490
00:32:28.380 --> 00:32:32.400
Oh, God, it's so terribly, I love it.

491
00:32:33.420 --> 00:32:35.819
Oh dear, oh, dear.

492
00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:36.420
Oh, that's right.

493
00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:43.079
So he's now assigning her to the bridge to show to everybody that he trusts her because you wouldn't put someone you don't trust on the bridge.

494
00:32:43.140 --> 00:32:43.799
Yeah.

495
00:32:43.859 --> 00:32:46.319
Yeah, look, I love all these dynamics.

496
00:32:46.380 --> 00:32:48.240
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

497
00:32:48.299 --> 00:32:48.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

498
00:32:49.019 --> 00:32:53.819
And like she's worried about her reputation because she's been taken off this mission publicly.

499
00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:56.819
And here, like I buy this as well.

500
00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:58.380
She doesn't want to be outed.

501
00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:07.799
She's concerned that he will wake up and recognise her, say, hey, you know, uh, here's the receipt that I promised you.

502
00:33:07.859 --> 00:33:09.000
Yeah, yeah.

503
00:33:09.059 --> 00:33:12.779
Like, I wonder if you're supposed to think she's concerned for him, actually.

504
00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:14.160
She's concerned he's going to spill.

505
00:33:14.220 --> 00:33:14.940
That's the trouble.

506
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:21.660
Yeah, no, but I think she even even if she's like she's concerned, just imagine she's not the villain, right?

507
00:33:21.720 --> 00:33:25.619
If we think that she's not, she's been unjustly suspected.

508
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:32.640
She's, she wants him to turn up, to wake up and not recognise her, right?

509
00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:39.359
And so this is not suspicious behaviour from our point of view as an audience trying to work out what's happening, I think.

510
00:33:39.539 --> 00:33:44.640
What I think is really clever is they put a twist within the twist.

511
00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:55.440
So, like, even if you kind of guessed, yeah, she's the one given them the technology, you never would have guessed, actually, she's a Cardassian, and she never was a marquee at all.

512
00:33:55.500 --> 00:33:55.920
Yeah.

513
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:57.839
And that's a, do you know what, Martha Hackett?

514
00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:04.019
There's a quote from her on memory alpha going, you know, I read this script and I thought, oh my god, she's evil.

515
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:05.819
And then, 0 my god, she's a Kardashian.

516
00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:06.960
She's double evil.

517
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:09.179
She loved it.

518
00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:12.480
Well, no, I bet. and it gives her great stuff to do.

519
00:34:12.539 --> 00:34:21.599
But, you know, even the reveal that she's a Cardassian, there's a moment where she explains to Chakotay what she says really happened.

520
00:34:21.900 --> 00:34:26.039
That is a trick cliche, you know, where they sound...

521
00:34:26.099 --> 00:34:27.659
I was on this labour camp.

522
00:34:27.719 --> 00:34:29.760
It's a genius, very cliche.

523
00:34:29.820 --> 00:34:32.820
Yeah. he had a Kalanora syndrome.

524
00:34:33.239 --> 00:34:34.619
Yeah.

525
00:34:34.619 --> 00:34:37.619
And that's why he's, you know, he's not Maritza.

526
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:39.300
So it's kind of something we've done before.

527
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:40.980
So we're like, oh, okay, so we can buy into this.

528
00:34:41.099 --> 00:34:43.860
Well, we do know that's the sort of thing that happened.

529
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:45.360
You know, like that...

530
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:53.340
It reminds me of that wonderful bit in a serene squall where she goes, did you really buy into that terrible backstory I gave you that you should have complaining about?

531
00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:55.320
Yeah, that's right.

532
00:34:55.320 --> 00:35:03.119
But they don't, yeah, a 90s track at this point. not going to take the piss out of the cliche. quite nice, yeah.

533
00:35:03.179 --> 00:35:08.219
But it's kind of funny because we're not in a position to judge whether that's credible or not.

534
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:11.940
And so it looks like Chakotay believes it.

535
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:20.099
And then, of course, we're double, there's another twist where he knew that that was all bullshit because the doctor had ruled it out already as a possibility.

536
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:29.340
Now, you said to me, when we were talking off Mike, that this might be the point where Chakotay stopped being a credible character.

537
00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:37.320
But actually, I think in season two, there's one episode where he goes after Cesca, and he's determined to like bring her down, which works really well.

538
00:35:37.380 --> 00:35:40.920
And then there's an episode towards the end of the season where him and Jane were having almost romance.

539
00:35:40.980 --> 00:35:46.800
But I think at the end of season two, that's when he stops offering anything of work to the show.

540
00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:58.380
Yeah, and like he has an interesting role here because he's not just the person who, I mean, I don't even know what Chakotay does in a normal episode in series four.

541
00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:00.119
Like, does he read out things?

542
00:36:00.179 --> 00:36:01.980
He sits next to Janeway.

543
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:06.719
He sticks to Janeway and says things like, you know, oh, yes, you're fiddling with your combatge.

544
00:36:06.780 --> 00:36:11.639
That must mean you're, that's right. your tail. having a tough time making a decision or something like that, you know.

545
00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:13.500
Dreadful banter like that.

546
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:13.920
Yeah.

547
00:36:13.980 --> 00:36:27.480
So he's given stuff to do and he's given an interesting position to be in because he's got loyalties as the 1st officer of the ship, but as leader of the McKee, and he sympathises with the McKee.

548
00:36:27.539 --> 00:36:29.400
As lover to kiss, does that stuff?

549
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:31.500
Yeah, yeah, it's a triple whammy, really.

550
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:32.039
Yeah.

551
00:36:32.099 --> 00:36:34.320
And like, I don't think he's that good.

552
00:36:34.380 --> 00:36:37.860
Like, I don't think Robert Beltran's Beltran Gray.

553
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:39.239
I'll tell you what, though.

554
00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:41.159
There's something hot about him in early Voyager.

555
00:36:41.219 --> 00:36:44.340
He's got a touch of grace to his hair before he started dying it, you know?

556
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:48.480
No, I mean, and I like him a lot better than I like the other Robert, to be honest.

557
00:36:49.380 --> 00:36:51.000
Excuse me.

558
00:36:51.059 --> 00:36:52.199
Robert Picardo.

559
00:36:52.260 --> 00:36:52.679
How dare you?

560
00:36:52.739 --> 00:36:55.199
Oh, God, everyone's called Robert on this fucking show, right?

561
00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:58.380
Robin Duncan McNeil.

562
00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:00.300
Why are 3 people called Robert?

563
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:01.380
That's crazy.

564
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:04.920
There should be a screen actors guild rule about it.

565
00:37:04.980 --> 00:37:06.539
So, you know what?

566
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:08.460
This is this is anti before and after, you know.

567
00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:10.559
This is focussing on all the characters we love on Voyager.

568
00:37:10.619 --> 00:37:14.579
I've got a good role for Lola Torres, got a good role for Janeway.

569
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:16.079
You've got a good role for Seska.

570
00:37:16.139 --> 00:37:20.039
You know, and Harry Kim and Tom Paris.

571
00:37:20.099 --> 00:37:22.380
I'll shunt it to the sidelines and don't do anything.

572
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:24.059
We even see Harry in this episode.

573
00:37:24.119 --> 00:37:27.719
Yeah, he was just there, delivering some Technobab, but the case on shift.

574
00:37:27.780 --> 00:37:28.739
That's so boring.

575
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:30.719
Bit thankless, but he was there.

576
00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:31.440
Yeah, okay.

577
00:37:31.500 --> 00:37:32.880
He's barely in it though, isn't he?

578
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:37.679
Kez gets a nice little scene where she's, you know, talking about the blood with Cesca.

579
00:37:37.739 --> 00:37:39.239
Yeah.

580
00:37:39.239 --> 00:37:39.960
Early hair.

581
00:37:40.019 --> 00:37:41.039
What was going on with that?

582
00:37:41.159 --> 00:37:42.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

583
00:37:42.179 --> 00:37:42.900
I thought I liked it.

584
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:43.679
How weak?

585
00:37:43.739 --> 00:37:44.940
Yeah, it's a week, obviously.

586
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:47.099
She only ever wears a...

587
00:37:47.159 --> 00:37:51.000
Why would you deliberately make someone as beautiful as Jennifer Leanne look awful.

588
00:37:51.059 --> 00:37:51.900
Yeah, I don't know.

589
00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:52.440
Don't know.

590
00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:53.519
She's supposed to look extra strange.

591
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:54.659
I think is the idea.

592
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:57.300
Do you think Carrie looks a bit like Chief O'Brien?

593
00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:05.099
Yeah, he's kind of like your low rent, you know, non-union Mexican equivalent of Columini, I think.

594
00:38:05.159 --> 00:38:06.239
And he is Irish.

595
00:38:06.300 --> 00:38:08.159
Well, his name's Carrie, isn't it?

596
00:38:08.219 --> 00:38:09.000
isn't it?

597
00:38:09.059 --> 00:38:10.019
Well, it is.

598
00:38:10.019 --> 00:38:10.320
Yeah.

599
00:38:10.739 --> 00:38:14.039
I think Janeway's been looking through the archives, right?

600
00:38:14.099 --> 00:38:17.940
Captain Pike and seeing how fabulously high his hair goes and she's trying to match it.

601
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:21.599
Honestly, it's enormous, though, heck.

602
00:38:21.659 --> 00:38:22.079
Yeah.

603
00:38:22.139 --> 00:38:25.199
I don't know about her season one here.

604
00:38:25.260 --> 00:38:28.679
I kind of was hoping for just a normal French curl.

605
00:38:28.739 --> 00:38:35.039
I think this is a sort of weird look, but, you know, it's got a sort of, you know, like a Russian hat.

606
00:38:35.699 --> 00:38:43.320
You know, you've got to remember, though, at this point in the rum, those execs are still on the set for every episode watching everything he's doing.

607
00:38:43.380 --> 00:38:45.000
Is she okay to do this?

608
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:46.559
Man, man.

609
00:38:46.619 --> 00:38:48.059
Look at her fair look.

610
00:38:48.179 --> 00:38:50.400
I'd like to believe you, Mr. Carey.

611
00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:52.440
She's really great.

612
00:38:52.500 --> 00:38:53.639
She's so good.

613
00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:55.440
So good.

614
00:38:55.500 --> 00:38:59.039
I think I think her best moment is when she confronts colour though.

615
00:38:59.099 --> 00:39:03.960
I think she has 2 stunning moments, but the confrontation with colour is spectacular.

616
00:39:04.019 --> 00:39:08.039
So good. don't like bullies. and I don't like you.

617
00:39:08.099 --> 00:39:08.519
Really?

618
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:10.440
I don't like threats.

619
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:11.639
It's a tricolon.

620
00:39:11.699 --> 00:39:12.780
I don't like threats.

621
00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:15.840
I don't like bullies and I don't like you, Carla.

622
00:39:15.900 --> 00:39:16.559
It's so good.

623
00:39:16.619 --> 00:39:20.039
And she's so solid delivery.

624
00:39:20.099 --> 00:39:20.639
She's great.

625
00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:24.539
I'm entirely convinced. is a good line.

626
00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:25.199
Look at that.

627
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:29.400
She spent the last 2 years as an enemy of the Federation.

628
00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:34.860
And he just says, so have I. And I think that's a really properly interesting line.

629
00:39:35.340 --> 00:39:38.639
You know, you've brought into me being a part of this crew.

630
00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:40.320
So you should buy into her too.

631
00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:42.480
That sort of stuff.

632
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:44.099
There's so much to be done.

633
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:51.480
Certainly enough here to for there to be the possibility that she didn't do it.

634
00:39:51.539 --> 00:39:52.739
Oh yeah, absolutely.

635
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:54.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

636
00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:55.860
Yeah, we absolutely know shit.

637
00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:56.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

638
00:39:56.519 --> 00:39:58.679
But I think that's the thing that she's too obvious.

639
00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:03.900
And what would be more interesting is if it turns out to be Carey, who's missing his mum or something. you know.

640
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:06.840
Can I just say this man playing marsh colour?

641
00:40:06.900 --> 00:40:09.360
Okay, he gets quite a few appearances in series two.

642
00:40:09.420 --> 00:40:13.079
Cesca's bit on the side, you know, she's playing him on a long string.

643
00:40:13.139 --> 00:40:18.360
I think he's got, he's not as good as, but he actually has got a bit of charisma.

644
00:40:18.420 --> 00:40:20.280
Oh, yeah, that's what I think he's great.

645
00:40:20.340 --> 00:40:22.440
That's Marco Lemo charisma, you know.

646
00:40:22.500 --> 00:40:25.380
I think he's really properly good in this.

647
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:27.420
And striking looking.

648
00:40:27.480 --> 00:40:28.500
Don't you think?

649
00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:31.019
He looks really stupid fucking hair.

650
00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:32.460
What is that hair all about?

651
00:40:32.579 --> 00:40:34.920
But he's a bow mask scale.

652
00:40:34.980 --> 00:40:36.420
I give him a 8.7.

653
00:40:36.539 --> 00:40:38.159
It is pretty stupid, isn't it?

654
00:40:38.219 --> 00:40:40.739
But he's got a really angular face.

655
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:42.360
He's got really strong features.

656
00:40:42.420 --> 00:40:43.920
I really, I think he's great.

657
00:40:44.039 --> 00:40:48.780
But what's wonderful is how in season two, Cesca emasculates him, you know?

658
00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:52.739
He's like posturing and she's there and he's there going, yes, Marsh.

659
00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:57.420
Yeah, but I also think you should divert to this course, Marge.

660
00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:00.360
I think it's really impressive as well.

661
00:41:00.420 --> 00:41:05.639
You know how they try and go for sort of grunty animalistic kind of delivery when you're a Klingon?

662
00:41:05.699 --> 00:41:08.400
And he doesn't, he's very posh and clipped and stuff.

663
00:41:08.460 --> 00:41:09.659
I think he's really good.

664
00:41:09.719 --> 00:41:13.260
And he's quite calm too, and a bit genial.

665
00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:17.880
Yeah, it is that it is that gold Ducat effect, isn't it?

666
00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:21.059
of like the sort of villain that you want to hang with.

667
00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:23.280
Yeah, I think he's really terrific.

668
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:31.019
And just the fact that she sort of fairly effortlessly refuses to be intimidated by him.

669
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:33.780
You know, she has the upper hand.

670
00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:40.800
You know, earlier in the episode where Neelix goes, you know, captain, you shouldn't go after these caisson ships.

671
00:41:40.860 --> 00:41:46.500
This could be a, this could be a trap, and she says, yeah, but, you know, we're going to be humane, and we're going to help them out anyway.

672
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:47.940
I love that beer.

673
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:49.019
Yeah.

674
00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:58.920
Well, this, you know, where he says that's not acceptable and she just says, well, it will have to be, you know, and it's. you turned on now, right?

675
00:41:58.980 --> 00:42:01.500
The way she's looking at him, then it could be like a romance scene.

676
00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:05.579
She's kind of given him the eyes. slap him and then dark kiss.

677
00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:15.000
We learned in counterpoint that Janeway is very good at, you know, flirting outrageously and being very well aware she's talking to a villain at the same time.

678
00:42:15.059 --> 00:42:15.900
I think so.

679
00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:20.880
Oh, I love this.

680
00:42:20.940 --> 00:42:22.440
So good, isn't it?

681
00:42:22.500 --> 00:42:24.960
It's sort of shockingly unexpected.

682
00:42:25.019 --> 00:42:26.760
I'm glad that Tuvok isn't fooled by it.

683
00:42:26.820 --> 00:42:34.980
It's so good Do you remember when they pulled off a similar trick in basics where the the Kazon man comes onto for you?

684
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:41.760
I'm defecting and they wait till about two-thirds into the episode and then he injects himself and literally flows.

685
00:42:41.820 --> 00:42:43.619
Yeah, that's right.

686
00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:44.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

687
00:42:44.820 --> 00:42:45.539
Yeah, that's right.

688
00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:47.639
That's really great.

689
00:42:47.699 --> 00:42:48.659
Get off my ship.

690
00:42:48.780 --> 00:42:50.219
She's so good.

691
00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:52.139
And she's absolutely in command.

692
00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:54.719
Like, he's physically massive compared to her.

693
00:42:54.780 --> 00:42:59.219
Um, you know, but she has the edge.

694
00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:01.079
She's really, really properly good.

695
00:43:01.139 --> 00:43:02.340
She stands up to him so well.

696
00:43:02.699 --> 00:43:12.900
I am so unused, and this is going to sound like a half-assed compliment to Voyager, having this much substance in its characterisation and in its narrative.

697
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:17.340
That's what really stood out for me and it's just a lot, there's a lot happening in this, you know?

698
00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:17.820
Yeah.

699
00:43:17.820 --> 00:43:18.599
Yeah.

700
00:43:18.659 --> 00:43:20.280
And it means something.

701
00:43:20.340 --> 00:43:22.199
Like it has an impact.

702
00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:28.019
Her being a trace, in this episode has an impact on Bilanatores, it has an impact on Chakotay.

703
00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:32.099
It absolutely has an impact on Janeway because she's really in tears. in our 2nd class scene.

704
00:43:32.159 --> 00:43:33.420
Yeah, that's so good.

705
00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:35.460
I think that's her 2nd great acting moment.

706
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:36.900
I think it's so good.

707
00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:38.760
Such an interesting choice.

708
00:43:38.820 --> 00:43:41.880
Not necessarily imposed on her by the script or anything.

709
00:43:41.940 --> 00:43:43.980
It's just a really, really good choice.

710
00:43:44.699 --> 00:43:54.300
At the end of this scene, right, there's a throwaway bit of dialogue where they're going onto the bridge and he goes to Chicago goes to Chewbok, you were working for her.

711
00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:55.079
She was working for them.

712
00:43:55.139 --> 00:43:57.059
Was anyone on that shit working for me?

713
00:43:57.119 --> 00:43:58.920
I really like that.

714
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:04.440
He must literally be thinking he's, you know, the biggest bloody fall win, the whole of the Marquis.

715
00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:05.940
He is turns out.

716
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:09.420
Oh, what's she doing with that?

717
00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:11.280
Oh, that's a pattern enhancer.

718
00:44:11.340 --> 00:44:12.420
Remember Pat Enhancers?

719
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:13.139
We've talked about them before.

720
00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:14.460
Oh, from power play.

721
00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:16.079
They set that up, didn't they?

722
00:44:16.139 --> 00:44:17.699
And then they all did a little die backwards.

723
00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:18.840
That's what I remember.

724
00:44:19.260 --> 00:44:20.880
There it is.

725
00:44:20.940 --> 00:44:22.860
Was any on that ship working for me?

726
00:44:22.920 --> 00:44:26.579
I prefer that kind of bit of throwaway dialogue to the scene at the end.

727
00:44:26.639 --> 00:44:28.380
It's a little bit later, I think.

728
00:44:28.380 --> 00:44:30.000
But we didn't need it.

729
00:44:30.059 --> 00:44:33.480
It would have, and it doesn't make sense either, I think.

730
00:44:33.539 --> 00:44:36.179
And it kind of, as you know, chewbox going, you know.

731
00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:40.380
How is me being fooled by her making you feel better?

732
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:41.639
Yeah, like come on.

733
00:44:41.699 --> 00:44:52.500
I think what's really fun too. is that we think it's going to be a race against time, that we have to get this evidence before the other Kazon turn up.

734
00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:55.079
But in fact, we get the evidence at the end of the next scene.

735
00:44:55.139 --> 00:44:57.539
And even Jane wears kind of, oh, all right, you're finished.

736
00:44:57.599 --> 00:44:58.079
Fantastic.

737
00:44:58.139 --> 00:45:01.139
And then he, then we get this.

738
00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:01.679
Here she goes.

739
00:45:01.739 --> 00:45:02.820
Holy crap, she's good.

740
00:45:06.659 --> 00:45:11.280
She turns me on a little bit, you know, when she's this forceful.

741
00:45:11.340 --> 00:45:13.860
Just tremendously great.

742
00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:16.260
I've got supernovas in them. you see them?

743
00:45:17.219 --> 00:45:19.019
Look at her.

744
00:45:19.079 --> 00:45:21.719
She's got her hands on her hips.

745
00:45:21.719 --> 00:45:23.639
The Janeway maneuver, we call that.

746
00:45:23.699 --> 00:45:30.119
You know how the Picard maneuver is when he pulls his shirt down to straighten out the wrinkles.

747
00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:31.260
That's the Janeway maneuver.

748
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:40.139
That's a very good shot of the power dynamics on the Voyager Bridge there, because she's there with her hands on her hips, looking very authoritative, and he's limping a chair next to her, looking a bit useless.

749
00:45:40.260 --> 00:45:41.039
What am I doing?

750
00:45:41.099 --> 00:45:41.639
Well, there you go.

751
00:45:41.699 --> 00:45:42.599
That's exactly it.

752
00:45:42.659 --> 00:45:43.920
Wonderful.

753
00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:49.079
And, you know, go back to next gen, you would have had Troy looking a bit useless while Picard was looking important, you know?

754
00:45:49.139 --> 00:45:50.340
things have changed for the better.

755
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:52.019
She is so good.

756
00:45:52.139 --> 00:45:52.860
Holy crap.

757
00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:58.079
And I want to say, you know, what do we think about Bilana season one?

758
00:45:58.139 --> 00:46:01.619
It's a little masculine, isn't it?

759
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:02.579
It gets longer.

760
00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:03.599
I think it's terrible.

761
00:46:03.659 --> 00:46:06.059
I just think it's really shockingly bad.

762
00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:09.659
I mean, season one, you know, like everyone's growing into their look eventually.

763
00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:11.699
Look at Cisco in DS9, you know?

764
00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:15.780
Yeah, I think Neelix too actually looks a little bit weird in this episode.

765
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:25.619
But I do think you and I need to do an episode that gives Roxanne Dawson a bit of focus soon because we haven't and she is a star player on this show.

766
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:26.280
She is very good.

767
00:46:26.340 --> 00:46:30.480
Oh, no, we did the, you know, horrible hologram baby episode.

768
00:46:30.539 --> 00:46:31.739
What's that called?

769
00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:32.460
lineage.

770
00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:33.659
That's mostly her?

771
00:46:33.780 --> 00:46:35.280
Oh, of course, I forgot about it.

772
00:46:35.340 --> 00:46:38.039
Yeah, but she was been swamped out by Duncan O'Neill the whole time.

773
00:46:38.099 --> 00:46:38.699
Yeah, that's true.

774
00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:43.139
Okay, what's occurring now?

775
00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:43.980
I've lost it a bit.

776
00:46:44.039 --> 00:46:46.320
They've discovered what it is, I guess.

777
00:46:46.380 --> 00:46:54.000
And what caused the people melting into the bulkheads problem that we saw earlier.

778
00:46:54.119 --> 00:46:55.199
Oh, this is wonderful.

779
00:46:55.260 --> 00:47:00.840
This bit here where Seske goes, you know, you must think I'm horrible.

780
00:47:00.900 --> 00:47:09.059
I think I'm a Cardassian and a crazy, you know, she really kind of, she really lays it on thick ear.

781
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:11.460
I was like, go on Marfa Hackett.

782
00:47:11.519 --> 00:47:25.260
Well, in fact, it's really great because there is that scene earlier on where they're kind of conspiring together and we see her enjoying telling that story to Chakotay and him enjoying the story until it ends up with, and then I stole lots of food from everyone.

783
00:47:25.739 --> 00:47:30.599
Can I ask, is there another character on voyage with these kind of layers?

784
00:47:30.659 --> 00:47:39.300
Well, I mean, not well, I mean, it's not layers really, is it sort of, she gets interesting plot things happen to her.

785
00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:40.679
Like that happened with her.

786
00:47:40.739 --> 00:47:43.619
She's got one mask over another over another.

787
00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:43.980
Yeah.

788
00:47:43.980 --> 00:47:44.280
Yeah.

789
00:47:44.340 --> 00:47:53.340
She gets a lot of fun. a character where they can actually play about with the possibility of who they are and I just, I don't know.

790
00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:56.219
I just don't think there's anyone as interesting as this later on.

791
00:47:56.280 --> 00:47:57.420
I don't think there is either.

792
00:47:57.480 --> 00:48:05.099
I mean, seven, I think, is pretty interesting, but it's a fairly straightforward premise and it's the actor that...

793
00:48:05.099 --> 00:48:07.800
It's just her...

794
00:48:07.860 --> 00:48:09.300
It's kind of that's interesting, I think.

795
00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:13.019
Well, it's interesting because of the actress because Jerry Ryan's so good.

796
00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:13.860
Yeah, yeah.

797
00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:18.239
Whereas what they settle on with Cesca is supervillain, but...

798
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:18.840
That's great.

799
00:48:18.900 --> 00:48:20.099
It's fun to have a soon.

800
00:48:20.219 --> 00:48:21.239
When is that ever not wonderful?

801
00:48:21.900 --> 00:48:22.619
that's right.

802
00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:23.400
That's right.

803
00:48:23.460 --> 00:48:25.739
The films all do supervillains, don't they?

804
00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:28.739
Lots of the the later films do.

805
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:30.360
I'm on as good as Sescono, you know.

806
00:48:30.420 --> 00:48:31.139
No, that's true.

807
00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:40.440
And in fact, she's so good that even when, no, she long departed the show, they did an episode towards the end of series three, which was a holiday program of Cesca overthrowing the ship.

808
00:48:40.500 --> 00:48:41.400
Yes, that's right.

809
00:48:41.460 --> 00:48:50.159
And then way forward in series 7, in an episode called Shattered, where Chakotay is travelling along the Voyager Timeline.

810
00:48:50.219 --> 00:48:50.519
Yeah.

811
00:48:50.519 --> 00:48:54.239
And one of the time zones he goes to, has says in it.

812
00:48:54.300 --> 00:48:56.280
But they don't they can't quite forget about her.

813
00:48:56.340 --> 00:48:57.659
I'm glad, though.

814
00:48:57.719 --> 00:48:58.559
She is spectacular.

815
00:48:58.619 --> 00:48:59.519
She really is good.

816
00:48:59.579 --> 00:49:07.199
And this, like, this is, you know, Cesca acting and Martha acting, and I think it's pretty great.

817
00:49:07.260 --> 00:49:08.460
We talked about this before.

818
00:49:08.519 --> 00:49:10.380
It is the incredible sob story.

819
00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:19.199
She says a line here that's so emasculating to Shikose, because she says, you must have thought I did it all for your secrets.

820
00:49:19.260 --> 00:49:24.239
Well, let me tell you, your secrets weren't good enough, but I know what she's really saying.

821
00:49:24.300 --> 00:49:30.059
Well, except that she says, I only had one agenda with you, Chakosay, and you know what that, what that was.

822
00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:31.559
Fuck him.

823
00:49:31.619 --> 00:49:32.880
Yeah, well, yeah, yeah.

824
00:49:32.940 --> 00:49:34.139
You know.

825
00:49:34.199 --> 00:49:36.360
And maybe that's actually kind of true.

826
00:49:36.420 --> 00:49:39.900
You know, she's a Cardassian that somehow ended up on this ship.

827
00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:43.739
And when we discover she's a Kardassian, that's not a problem.

828
00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:44.400
Do you know what I mean?

829
00:49:44.460 --> 00:49:46.440
Like, she's a Cardassian, but that's not the problem.

830
00:49:46.500 --> 00:49:48.360
The problem is she's kind of a bad person.

831
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:56.460
What I love about this as well is that the audience is kind of duped here because we're at the point now where we think, oh, JJ's so fucking naive.

832
00:49:56.519 --> 00:49:58.079
Like, how is he buying this anymore?

833
00:49:58.139 --> 00:50:04.019
And then you Sick Bay and goes straight up to Chewfac and says, right, she's just told me this cock and ball story.

834
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:05.579
Let's watch her now.

835
00:50:05.639 --> 00:50:08.400
And I'm like, okay, so this is really playing some interesting games.

836
00:50:08.460 --> 00:50:16.139
Yeah, I, because I have a low opinion of Chakotay, I just assumed that he was being a complete patsy in this scene.

837
00:50:16.139 --> 00:50:22.139
And then we cut to Tuvok in a sort of interesting blocked scene there.

838
00:50:22.980 --> 00:50:24.780
He's so good.

839
00:50:24.840 --> 00:50:25.920
Holy crap.

840
00:50:25.980 --> 00:50:27.000
Hey, Tim Ross.

841
00:50:27.059 --> 00:50:28.199
Yes, wasted.

842
00:50:28.260 --> 00:50:29.940
Oh, they are you, wasted on the show.

843
00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:38.519
I've got some quotes from Tim Rush, you know, in my book, which when we get there, I'm going to tell you, because he's fucking scathing about the Techno Battle in Voyager, you know.

844
00:50:38.579 --> 00:50:39.900
Yeah.

845
00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:51.539
There are scenes of technobabble here that I think are kind of a bit crap. and early on, there was a few bits where, you know, my brain was fighting what was being said to me because it just really wasn't very interesting.

846
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:57.780
No, but I mean, then we've just done an episode before this that was entirely techno-babble-based.

847
00:50:57.840 --> 00:51:00.420
You know, it was the interaction of the product.

848
00:51:00.420 --> 00:51:03.900
Yeah, chronoton radiation interacting with the biotemporal therapy.

849
00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:07.260
Like it couldn't have been less literally terrifying.

850
00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:08.940
Like just that you remember that, you know?

851
00:51:08.940 --> 00:51:12.420
Two completely bullshit things interacting to really...

852
00:51:12.420 --> 00:51:15.059
Watching Star Trek's not been a waste in your brain.

853
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:16.679
No, no, I'm...

854
00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:18.480
I'm thinking about what you've got stored in there now.

855
00:51:18.539 --> 00:51:23.039
I'm going to get Andre Balmanis to sign you over for the next book, all right?

856
00:51:23.099 --> 00:51:27.420
Now, can I just tell you that this gin rummy thing?

857
00:51:27.480 --> 00:51:32.820
The dialogue here is about how they're going to solve the plot.

858
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:40.320
And it's like I discard enough cards to fool you about what I still have in my hand.

859
00:51:40.380 --> 00:51:44.400
Like, that's him describing his strategy.

860
00:51:44.460 --> 00:51:47.099
So I'm there going, what the fuck is this scene for?

861
00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:48.840
Like, why are we playing cards?

862
00:51:48.900 --> 00:51:49.559
What's happening here?

863
00:51:49.619 --> 00:51:52.199
And it is clearly just that.

864
00:51:52.260 --> 00:51:54.960
It's like both of them are doing that.

865
00:51:55.019 --> 00:52:10.500
It's a little bit like the counterpoint stuff, which is obviously much, much better done in the episode counterpoint, the way all that's talk about interacting spirals and music and all of that sort of thing informs of, informs us about how the, the episode's going to go.

866
00:52:11.219 --> 00:52:17.340
I love scenes like this, you know, the suspense in this moment where you're like, 0 my God, it's happening right now.

867
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:25.199
They're literally moving the evidence and the music was sort of rising a little bit and you're like, you know, you're on tenderhooks as to who the bloody hell is doing this.

868
00:52:25.260 --> 00:52:25.679
Yeah.

869
00:52:25.739 --> 00:52:28.860
But why just doesn't have suspense like this very often?

870
00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:29.280
No.

871
00:52:29.340 --> 00:52:30.119
Yeah.

872
00:52:30.179 --> 00:52:31.260
It's really good.

873
00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:34.079
And it matters to us because these are semi-regular characters.

874
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:40.079
This is a top 10 boy just seen, this scene in Sick Bay now.

875
00:52:40.139 --> 00:52:40.800
This whole scene.

876
00:52:40.860 --> 00:52:53.340
I quite like how Cesca's decided to put some lipstick on for this scene too, because I think that she looks more vulnerable when she doesn't have her lipstick on and now she's wearing supervillain lipstick.

877
00:52:53.400 --> 00:53:00.059
We kind of, you know, she's she's a little bit more of a force to be reckoned with, I think.

878
00:53:00.420 --> 00:53:12.000
What's what's lovely about this is she does. she continues to try and follow him for about, what about 30 seconds thinking Oh, you know, I've still got him wrapped around my little finger, his penis wrapped around my finger.

879
00:53:12.059 --> 00:53:12.780
That's right.

880
00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:18.179
Until then the lights come on and then she doesn't even have a moment where she goes all supervillain.

881
00:53:18.239 --> 00:53:22.199
She's still talking in the same tone, but she's just like, all right, it's a fair cock guv.

882
00:53:22.260 --> 00:53:23.159
Yeah, you got me.

883
00:53:23.880 --> 00:53:28.800
And because she knows she's got a way out, we don't know yet, but she does.

884
00:53:28.860 --> 00:53:31.800
She plays the whole scene so cool, doesn't she?

885
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:33.360
Yeah, she's really good.

886
00:53:35.639 --> 00:53:43.260
And I think what's interesting is not just her delivery, but just everybody else's silent reactions to her.

887
00:53:43.380 --> 00:53:44.460
Yeah.

888
00:53:44.519 --> 00:53:49.800
I think he's getting to, this is a good speech for him and he's getting to do things with it.

889
00:53:49.860 --> 00:53:54.659
Now with the lights on and all of us come in. time for an accusation.

890
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:57.599
Yeah. in my space.

891
00:53:57.900 --> 00:54:00.000
Folding her arms.

892
00:54:00.539 --> 00:54:04.139
So we haven't settled on EMH at this point.

893
00:54:04.199 --> 00:54:08.219
He's the emergency holographic medical program instead of the other way around.

894
00:54:08.280 --> 00:54:12.059
He doesn't get to say, please state the nature of the medical emergency here.

895
00:54:13.079 --> 00:54:19.739
I mean, I'm not sure we needed a doctor for this, but they could have just said, well, we spoke to the doctor and he said, you know.

896
00:54:19.800 --> 00:54:30.119
Yeah, except that we didn't get to see that scene where we spoke to the doctor, so let's give Robert, the other Robert, something to do, I think.

897
00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:32.579
But this is like, so it's great.

898
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:34.739
We get, you know, the double whammy twists.

899
00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:39.480
He's just said it was you that did it, and then the doctor comes with us, says, and you're a Kardashian.

900
00:54:39.539 --> 00:54:40.440
Yeah, yeah.

901
00:54:40.500 --> 00:54:43.800
But the being a carnassian isn't the problem, is it?

902
00:54:43.860 --> 00:54:52.619
Like, they would have gone along with her, and it just turns out that she's a Cardassian who was caught up in this stupid thing that they did and, you know, happens to be stuck there.

903
00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:56.460
Yeah, when they were when they were taken, Yeah, taken by the case, she must have been enough, for fuck's sake.

904
00:54:56.579 --> 00:54:58.980
You know, I was on this covert mission with the marquee.

905
00:54:59.039 --> 00:55:00.780
I'm stuck here with you, bunch.

906
00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:01.739
Yeah, yeah.

907
00:55:01.800 --> 00:55:03.179
Yeah, it is kind of bad luck.

908
00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:05.400
Do you think she went to bed every night going?

909
00:55:05.460 --> 00:55:06.480
going to find out one day.

910
00:55:06.659 --> 00:55:10.440
No, I think I think probably not.

911
00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:19.380
And I think part of the thing is that she clearly underestimates them as well because they outclass her here and all of them are in on it.

912
00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:22.800
All of this stuff was happening behind the scenes in a way that she wasn't aware of.

913
00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:25.679
She gets here.

914
00:55:25.739 --> 00:55:29.820
She gets a brilliant bit where she's like federation.

915
00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:31.619
Well, she says federation compassion.

916
00:55:31.679 --> 00:55:34.980
Federation, nobility, Federation honour.

917
00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:36.780
Yeah, but she's wrong.

918
00:55:36.840 --> 00:55:39.780
You know, she's wrong about the federation here.

919
00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:41.880
No, this is a...

920
00:55:41.880 --> 00:55:42.539
Is she wrong, Nathan?

921
00:55:42.599 --> 00:55:43.320
Yes, yes.

922
00:55:43.380 --> 00:55:44.579
Because...

923
00:55:44.699 --> 00:55:53.880
I mean, I don't think their campers are very interesting, so maybe they should have got, they are just, you know, like a completely made up threat or not threat, you know, thing to worry about.

924
00:55:53.940 --> 00:55:59.340
They're like the people of Veridian 3 and Star Trek generations who he couldn't possibly give a shit about.

925
00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:16.980
But but if the choice is between allowing the Kazon to annihilate a race of people and this single ship being inconvenienced, even if the ship had been blown up, you know, like it would have been the right course of action, it would have been the right thing to do, and she's wrong, you know?

926
00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:26.280
I just, I just love it when people, I've got a lot of issues with the federation, you know, especially how they're portrayed in early TNG is imperialist assholes going around to me.

927
00:56:26.340 --> 00:56:27.300
No, we can't help them.

928
00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:30.059
They let them have their drug addiction, you know?

929
00:56:30.900 --> 00:56:46.739
Well, that's why the Federation works so well in discovery is because we're in an era that needs cooperation and that's facing various threats that needs to work together and needs to connect and that's been isolated.

930
00:56:46.800 --> 00:56:49.800
You know, everyone's been isolated for one another for ages.

931
00:56:49.980 --> 00:56:55.980
You know, amongst all that top dialogue, she just had them, you know, uh, condemning the Federation.

932
00:56:56.039 --> 00:57:01.800
The best bit is the soap opera bit where she just looks at him and goes, I can't believe I ever loved you to go take.

933
00:57:01.860 --> 00:57:02.519
Right.

934
00:57:02.579 --> 00:57:13.139
Now I'm going. where Cesca goes and she realises Janeway realises that she can't get her back.

935
00:57:13.199 --> 00:57:19.139
And she kind of tears up for a 2nd and then turns around isn't immediately back on.

936
00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:25.079
And that's such a great choice because, you know, this is the 1st season of Star Trek with a female captain.

937
00:57:25.139 --> 00:57:28.380
How is a female captain going to be different from a man?

938
00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:32.340
And it's that thing because she's the caretaker as well.

939
00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:34.860
That's why that 1st episode's called Caretaker.

940
00:57:34.920 --> 00:57:40.019
She has to look after this crew because there's no one else.

941
00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:43.019
And she's lost one of them.

942
00:57:43.079 --> 00:57:49.679
You know, do you think it would have been quite interesting when, you know, she's determined, isn't she?

943
00:57:49.739 --> 00:57:58.380
that 7 of 9 is going to join the crew and regain her, even when, you know, pretty much everyone's saying to her, you know, she's are gone.

944
00:57:58.440 --> 00:57:59.340
We can't do it.

945
00:57:59.400 --> 00:58:06.780
It might have been worth actually saying, you know, I lost one of my crews to the Kazon Nistrom.

946
00:58:07.860 --> 00:58:10.679
Maybe he didn't need to be reminded of that.

947
00:58:10.739 --> 00:58:24.000
As good as as good as Mulgrew is there at the end of Prime Factors, you know, where she's facing down Blano Torres and she's like, you know, if you disobey my rules again, there will be consequences.

948
00:58:24.059 --> 00:58:33.840
And then Chewbok, and then she has to deal with Chewbok, and she does the whole scene in like this restrained whisper, like she's on the edge of tears because he's portrayed her.

949
00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:35.760
Man she's good.

950
00:58:35.880 --> 00:58:37.019
Yeah, she is really good.

951
00:58:37.079 --> 00:58:41.400
And I love the choice of making the 2 of them just friends, you know.

952
00:58:41.460 --> 00:58:43.619
And there's not enough of that, I think.

953
00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:47.340
That's a new kind of...

954
00:58:47.400 --> 00:58:58.440
We get the odd moment where she keeps them a birthday cake or something like that, but it's not like the Cisco Dax friendship where they, you know, there's a lot of complexity for it over time and it ended.

955
00:58:59.219 --> 00:58:59.940
Yeah, indeed.

956
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:01.980
And it ended in a bit of a crap way.

957
00:59:02.039 --> 00:59:08.519
And it's that sort of stupid, you know, why should me failing make you feel better?

958
00:59:08.579 --> 00:59:12.059
And you kind of think, Jesus Christ, come on, you've met people before.

959
00:59:12.119 --> 00:59:12.960
What are you talking about?

960
00:59:13.019 --> 00:59:16.380
And the reason that Chakotay Gibbs doesn't seem to be the right reason.

961
00:59:16.440 --> 00:59:28.559
He says misery loves company, but surely it's like, well, if she fooled Tuvok, then I'm not a massive fucking idiot because Tuvok isn't, you know, that seems to be, don't you think?

962
00:59:28.619 --> 00:59:29.940
That would be why he feels better.

963
00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:32.400
Not just because Tuvolks feeling bad as well.

964
00:59:32.460 --> 00:59:36.780
It just seemed like a kind of shitty tone deaf kind of way to end it.

965
00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:40.019
And it doesn't end up being about anything, you know?

966
00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:51.300
I think one thing that I took away from this was what a crime and shame it was to write out Cesca at the end of season 2 because she is so fucking watchable.

967
00:59:51.360 --> 00:59:57.480
And they don't, Voyager doesn't have a recurring villain.

968
00:59:58.199 --> 00:59:59.699
I gave the series too.

969
00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:02.219
The ball queen sort of turns up, but she's so boring.

970
01:00:02.340 --> 01:00:05.280
She only turns up like 3 times or something, doesn't she?

971
01:00:05.340 --> 01:00:06.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

972
01:00:06.539 --> 01:00:08.940
It's something that DS9 got absolutely right, isn't it?

973
01:00:08.940 --> 01:00:12.360
with Dukart and Wei Yun and the female shapeshifter and win.

974
01:00:12.420 --> 01:00:18.840
And, you know, when these people turned up, you were like, yes, you know, now we're going against them, serious scenery chewing going on here.

975
01:00:18.900 --> 01:00:27.239
Um, and there were some people that might, like, anoraks from the year of hell potentially could have been overcover even.

976
01:00:27.300 --> 01:00:33.480
There was a pretty dreary, but great premise episode where it's like hustle.

977
01:00:33.539 --> 01:00:36.900
There's a group of people going around pretending that they're from Voyager.

978
01:00:36.900 --> 01:00:38.159
So it's a fake Janeway.

979
01:00:38.159 --> 01:00:43.980
And I fake, and the fake Janeway is actually really good and she would have been a great recurring villain.

980
01:00:44.280 --> 01:00:45.780
But they just don't.

981
01:00:45.840 --> 01:00:46.800
They just don't do it.

982
01:00:46.860 --> 01:00:48.300
I just think that's a real shame.

983
01:00:48.360 --> 01:00:53.400
Yeah, I mean, it stops being this show, I think.

984
01:00:53.460 --> 01:01:13.980
And, you know, like it doesn't leave it unable to do good things because there are good episodes coming up and all sorts of interesting episodes, and all sorts of interesting episodes that might not have been possible if we hadn't decided to move through the galaxy and meet a succession of different, uh, you know, adversaries.

985
01:01:14.039 --> 01:01:18.539
I think in, in retrospect, that ends up not being such a bad idea.

986
01:01:18.599 --> 01:01:25.559
But you just wish the show was as rich and interesting as this one is, I think.

987
01:01:25.619 --> 01:01:26.699
Yeah.

988
01:01:26.760 --> 01:01:31.679
And what's really terrible is when Cesca is written out in basics part two.

989
01:01:31.739 --> 01:01:32.400
Do you remember the scene?

990
01:01:32.460 --> 01:01:34.679
No, I don't think I do.

991
01:01:34.739 --> 01:01:37.739
See, and you should remember it when...

992
01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:38.400
The snow.

993
01:01:38.460 --> 01:01:50.760
And it's basically she's on the Bridge of Voyager with the baby and like a bolt hits the ship and then she sort of like is reaching off screen and that's the last we see of her. it's just nothing.

994
01:01:50.880 --> 01:01:51.599
Oh, okay.

995
01:01:51.659 --> 01:01:53.460
When Win left DS9.

996
01:01:53.639 --> 01:01:55.860
I know you have some issues with those scenes in the fire caves.

997
01:01:55.920 --> 01:01:58.679
But she's like, I'll stop you, Ducats.

998
01:01:58.739 --> 01:02:01.320
And he goes, are you still here?

999
01:02:01.380 --> 01:02:02.820
I killed her.

1000
01:02:02.880 --> 01:02:04.559
I'll never forget it.

1001
01:02:04.619 --> 01:02:07.019
Do they not they don't properly kill Cesca?

1002
01:02:07.079 --> 01:02:07.980
We just...

1003
01:02:07.980 --> 01:02:09.360
It's off off screen.

1004
01:02:09.420 --> 01:02:14.579
It's acknowledged that she was found dead amongst all the Kazan people on the bridge.

1005
01:02:14.639 --> 01:02:16.679
Oh, that's super boring.

1006
01:02:16.739 --> 01:02:17.519
I know.

1007
01:02:17.579 --> 01:02:19.320
It's the Jerry Taylor effect.

1008
01:02:19.380 --> 01:02:21.840
Yeah, it is a bit of a shame, isn't it?

1009
01:02:21.900 --> 01:02:38.400
Yeah Okay, it's the end of the episode, so it's time for us to pull up untitled Star Trek project.com slash randomiser and this week it's Joe's turn to pick.

1010
01:02:38.460 --> 01:02:40.619
So what series are we choosing from?

1011
01:02:40.980 --> 01:02:45.239
What's the most predictable series I could possibly choose?

1012
01:02:45.300 --> 01:02:47.639
Uh, deep so sign.

1013
01:02:47.699 --> 01:02:49.559
That is the series I've chosen.

1014
01:02:49.619 --> 01:02:59.280
And it's just because it's just because I've been watching a few lately and I just want to, and I know we've done quite a bit of 90s lately and we will head out soon, but there's a lot of it.

1015
01:02:59.340 --> 01:03:03.239
Yeah, most of it, most of Star Trek is from this era.

1016
01:03:03.900 --> 01:03:06.960
So if you will indulge me.

1017
01:03:07.019 --> 01:03:07.320
Yeah.

1018
01:03:07.380 --> 01:03:10.500
Yep, I'd like to a DS9 episode next.

1019
01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:11.760
Okay.

1020
01:03:11.820 --> 01:03:12.840
Well, tell me when you're ready.

1021
01:03:12.900 --> 01:03:14.280
Oh, I'm ready now.

1022
01:03:14.340 --> 01:03:15.480
I'm just pressed up.

1023
01:03:15.539 --> 01:03:15.960
Okay.

1024
01:03:16.559 --> 01:03:24.119
Your random Star Trek Deep Space 9 episode is season six, episode 15, Honour Amongst Thieves.

1025
01:03:24.179 --> 01:03:26.099
Is it a Quark episode?

1026
01:03:26.159 --> 01:03:33.179
No, no, it's an O'Brien episode where he is undercover in a pretty well realised location actually.

1027
01:03:33.239 --> 01:03:38.219
It's got Nick Tate from, is he from Space, Space 1999.

1028
01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:39.780
And Skippy.

1029
01:03:39.840 --> 01:03:41.400
Is he from Skippy?

1030
01:03:41.460 --> 01:03:42.480
He's an Australian anyway.

1031
01:03:42.539 --> 01:03:45.000
Isn't he a final mission as well?

1032
01:03:45.059 --> 01:03:46.139
He's in final mission.

1033
01:03:46.199 --> 01:03:47.039
Yeah, he's the same guy, yeah.

1034
01:03:47.099 --> 01:03:51.000
And he gives a really great performance, but it's a little quiet and so I'm going to press it again.

1035
01:03:51.059 --> 01:03:51.780
Okay.

1036
01:03:51.780 --> 01:03:53.940
Oh, looking for Pamark in all the wrong places.

1037
01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:56.159
Ah, which we covered in episodes?

1038
01:03:56.219 --> 01:03:56.760
I'll tell you what.

1039
01:03:56.760 --> 01:03:59.519
This randomiser is obsessed with us talking about sex, you know?

1040
01:03:59.579 --> 01:04:00.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1041
01:04:00.900 --> 01:04:02.099
Well, I wrote it.

1042
01:04:02.159 --> 01:04:08.039
Your random Star Trek Deep Space 9 episode is season five, episode two, the ship.

1043
01:04:08.219 --> 01:04:12.239
Ooh, I like episode 2 of a season, actually.

1044
01:04:12.300 --> 01:04:16.800
We resolve the cliffhanger and then head off boldly in another direction.

1045
01:04:16.860 --> 01:04:17.460
What do you think?

1046
01:04:17.519 --> 01:04:20.760
That's one of 2 episodes with a female water.

1047
01:04:20.820 --> 01:04:22.260
Ooh.

1048
01:04:22.260 --> 01:04:24.300
And a lot of tension.

1049
01:04:24.360 --> 01:04:26.940
It's pretty dark that episode.

1050
01:04:27.000 --> 01:04:29.639
Um, Oh, it's a good one.

1051
01:04:29.699 --> 01:04:33.239
It is a good one, but unfortunately I have pressed it again. press the button again.

1052
01:04:33.360 --> 01:04:35.099
Oh, okay.

1053
01:04:35.159 --> 01:04:40.380
Oh, I really want to do this, but it's part 2 of a 2 parter.

1054
01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:42.360
We haven't done a DS92 party, yeah.

1055
01:04:42.420 --> 01:04:44.460
I think we have to.

1056
01:04:44.519 --> 01:04:48.000
The rules are that we have to do both parts.

1057
01:04:48.360 --> 01:04:51.539
So it's season seven.

1058
01:04:51.539 --> 01:04:52.440
Yeah.

1059
01:04:52.500 --> 01:04:55.079
Episode 2 Shadows and Symbols.

1060
01:04:55.139 --> 01:04:59.400
So it would be Imogen of the Sand, Imogen the Sand.

1061
01:04:59.519 --> 01:05:03.300
I think it's called Image Sand. and shadows and shadows and cymbals.

1062
01:05:03.360 --> 01:05:11.880
Now, there's that's definitely a two-part because Deep Space 9 does do the thing where they have different titles. like the Dia's cast and stuff like that.

1063
01:05:11.940 --> 01:05:13.079
So that is a thing.

1064
01:05:13.139 --> 01:05:14.519
So I think that we have to...

1065
01:05:14.519 --> 01:05:19.559
Cisco on Earth. finding out about his mother.

1066
01:05:19.619 --> 01:05:21.719
It's the introduction of Ezri Dax.

1067
01:05:21.780 --> 01:05:27.780
It's Kira doing the blockade against, um, oh, it's the blockade against, again?

1068
01:05:27.840 --> 01:05:28.619
I't remember now.

1069
01:05:28.679 --> 01:05:29.940
Oh, it's the Romulans?

1070
01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:32.639
Yeah, Kira against the Romulans. which is amazing.

1071
01:05:32.699 --> 01:05:34.559
There's lots going on.

1072
01:05:34.619 --> 01:05:40.440
It's Wharf getting over the death of Dax and going on a mission with Quark to get her into Stovercore.

1073
01:05:40.500 --> 01:05:41.820
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1074
01:05:41.880 --> 01:05:43.860
I think that sounds great.

1075
01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:45.780
And technically, it is a 3 part.

1076
01:05:45.900 --> 01:05:52.559
We won't do all three, but actually, the last episode of series 6 and then the 1st 2 of season seven, it is one massive story.

1077
01:05:53.400 --> 01:05:56.219
But I think we should do one and 2 of seven.

1078
01:05:56.280 --> 01:05:58.679
Yeah, I'm absolutely on board with that.

1079
01:05:58.739 --> 01:05:59.340
Let's do that.

1080
01:05:59.400 --> 01:06:03.960
Let's do so series series 7, episodes one and 2 of Deep Space Nine.

1081
01:06:04.019 --> 01:06:09.059
I think that's hang time too, because it's sort of shifting a lot of...

1082
01:06:10.139 --> 01:06:15.719
I think it's one of those examples where DS9 juggles a lot of plots.

1083
01:06:16.199 --> 01:06:22.199
It builds up some serious momentum and it pays off everyone really well.

1084
01:06:22.260 --> 01:06:27.300
I think this is quietly and extremely, extremely good DS92 par.

1085
01:06:27.360 --> 01:06:28.980
All right, I'm up for it.

1086
01:06:29.039 --> 01:06:30.179
Let's do it.

1087
01:06:39.539 --> 01:06:45.179
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley.

1088
01:06:45.239 --> 01:06:51.059
We're online at untitledstar trekproject.com where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.

1089
01:06:51.119 --> 01:06:56.699
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1090
01:06:56.760 --> 01:07:01.920
This episode was recorded on the 24th of August 2022 and released on the 9th of September.

1091
01:07:02.039 --> 01:07:08.639
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Deep Space 9, Image in the Sand and Shadows and Symbols.

1092
01:07:21.420 --> 01:07:26.219
Okay, I'm going to keep bringing that button till I get Admiral Nachev.

1093
01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:26.880
Told you.

1094
01:07:27.900 --> 01:07:29.760
How do you know?

1095
01:07:31.079 --> 01:07:31.679
Oh, is she?

1096
01:07:31.800 --> 01:07:35.940
Yeah, she's in the search part too.

1097
01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:36.840
Yeah.

1098
01:07:36.900 --> 01:07:37.320
Okay.

1099
01:07:39.239 --> 01:07:45.719
We've signed a piece packed with a Dominion and I'm giving you a promotion.

1100
01:07:45.780 --> 01:07:47.880
Congratulations, captains of girls.

1101
01:07:47.940 --> 01:07:49.320
Is she the one who makes the announcement?

1102
01:07:49.380 --> 01:07:50.880
It's all a fake.

1103
01:07:50.940 --> 01:07:51.599
It a big con.

1104
01:07:51.659 --> 01:07:53.039
They're all strapped to a VR machine.

1105
01:07:53.099 --> 01:07:54.480
Oh, okay.

1106
01:07:54.539 --> 01:07:56.579
I thought she might be a shapeshifter.

1107
01:07:56.639 --> 01:08:00.960
So they do all of these mad changes and you think, what's going on with DS9 in the beginning of series three?

1108
01:08:01.019 --> 01:08:03.239
They collapse the wormhile and all this stuff's going on.

1109
01:08:03.300 --> 01:08:04.980
You're like, oh, okay, yeah.

1110
01:08:05.039 --> 01:08:06.059
It was all a dream.

1111
01:08:06.119 --> 01:08:07.980
Oh, that's a shame.

1112
01:08:08.039 --> 01:08:09.420
Yeah.

1113
01:08:09.780 --> 01:08:15.840
Yes, I had sort of hope that she would be the... oh, anyway.

1114
01:08:15.900 --> 01:08:17.579
Oh, Brendan has a question for us, by the way.

1115
01:08:17.640 --> 01:08:19.079
Well, for this episode?

1116
01:08:19.140 --> 01:08:32.880
No, just if it comes up, but it is why, uh, Noonian Song, Al Tansung, and Adam Song, all identical to one another.

1117
01:08:33.239 --> 01:08:40.079
Except for Noonian song who looks like Brent Spiner in a big kind of latex sack.

1118
01:08:40.140 --> 01:08:41.939
Genetic engineering.

1119
01:08:42.000 --> 01:08:42.960
Do you think?

1120
01:08:43.020 --> 01:08:45.479
That's what he, yeah, I think, I think probably.

1121
01:08:45.539 --> 01:08:49.859
Or maybe they just wanted to cast Brent and they didn't really give a shit.

1122
01:08:49.920 --> 01:08:51.300
Oh, that's my theory.

1123
01:08:51.359 --> 01:08:54.899
I think that is exactly right. correct, dad.

1124
01:08:54.960 --> 01:08:55.560
That's right.

1125
01:08:55.619 --> 01:08:58.739
It's just like, Brent wants to be in that.

1126
01:08:58.800 --> 01:09:01.140
Break wants some work.

1127
01:09:01.199 --> 01:09:01.979
Oh, wow.

1128
01:09:01.979 --> 01:09:05.159
Yeah, well, we're getting up soon out of the cupboards.

1129
01:09:05.220 --> 01:09:05.760
Yeah, that's true.

1130
01:09:05.819 --> 01:09:13.020
To be fair, though, half the time when he plays it, when he does soon in the augments trilogy in Enterprise. he brilliant.

1131
01:09:13.079 --> 01:09:15.539
He's really different as Adam.

1132
01:09:15.600 --> 01:09:20.760
I mean, like Adam's song in series 2 of Picard is that's a stupid, weird character, but like whatever.

1133
01:09:20.819 --> 01:09:23.159
Is he to warm down on that Android planet?

1134
01:09:23.220 --> 01:09:27.239
No, that's that's Alton's song.

1135
01:09:27.300 --> 01:09:31.619
There's the other song in 2022. who is...

1136
01:09:31.739 --> 01:09:33.060
Well, there's an awful lot of zooms out there.

1137
01:09:33.119 --> 01:09:38.640
I'm telling you, who is who's the father of not Soji, whatever she's called.

1138
01:09:38.699 --> 01:09:40.020
Anyway, the same woman.

1139
01:09:40.079 --> 01:09:41.279
What's her face?

1140
01:09:41.760 --> 01:09:42.300
Yeah.

1141
01:09:42.420 --> 01:09:44.699
All right, let's properly do this.

1142
01:09:45.420 --> 01:09:51.239
I think that that's a tag so that Brendan, so that, because Brendan said we should talk about it.

1143
01:09:51.239 --> 01:09:54.300
And I think we should get that in at the end. don't you reckon?

1144
01:09:54.359 --> 01:09:54.600
Yeah.

1145
01:09:54.659 --> 01:09:58.079
So he doesn't have to wait until we get the augment.

1146
01:09:58.140 --> 01:09:59.100
Fistful of zooms.

1147
01:09:59.159 --> 01:10:00.479
That's right.

1148
01:10:00.479 --> 01:10:05.939
All right, here goes.