Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, who thought we would be back aboard Voyager so soon?
I know, right?
In season one territory as well.
Yeah.
Potentially dodgy.
Actually, it's quite the reverse, isn't it?
Yeah, I was hugely surprised.
I knew that I liked Cesca and so this is an episode brought to you
by the Martha Hackett Appreciation Society.
She really she's incredibly great.
Do you remember it was that Romulan in Dig Space 9?
Oh, I can picture her.
She appeared in the search part one and she was supposed to be a
regular on DS9 and then the role of Cesca came up.
They poached her for Voyager.
So we've got an even better role for you.
And she's really good.
She's really great.
She is terrific.
I think for me watching this.
It reminded me that the Voyager premise was interesting.
And not just kind of, oh, you know, there's McKee so we can have
fights and stuff like that.
But, you know, they're stranded somewhere.
They don't know anyone.
They're surrounded by enemies, their supplies are limited.
And there's a lot of people out there who are dissatisfied with
the decision that Janeway made to strand them there, kind of
deliberately.
And I think it's a premise that really informs this episode and
makes it really good.
I said to you, when we very 1st started talking about Voyager, was
that this was a premise with potential, that you watch Caretaker
and you say, wow, this has got legs.
They can really run with this.
Now, admittedly, it was Battlestar Galactica that ran with the
premise and Voyager, essentially, after series 2 went for, let's
do a load of, you know, TNG light episodes.
Yeah.
But there are a couple of episodes in series one and there are a
couple of episodes in series 2 that really lean into this premise
of being stuck out in the wilderness and descent amongst the crew
and the idea that they do need to make alliances with people in
order to survive out here.
And this episode.
This is one of 2 back-to-back episodes.
I said this at the tag at the in the last episode.
You got Prime Factors, which is about acquiring technology to
escape the Delta Quadrant back to the Alpha Quadrant and that
going horribly wrong.
And Cesca's a big part of that.
Cesca's the person that basically says, no, I don't care if Jane
Way saying, no, we're going to go down and steal it.
And she convinces Balana Torres to go down there and get it.
But the twist of that one is that Chewbox got there 1st and he's
like, no, I'm going down to get it.
And then he gives up fantastic reasons as to why he did that in a
brilliant scene with K-Moll group.
Sorry, I digress.
No, no, no, I want to just say one thing.
Those aliens in prime factors are later all assimilated by the
Borg as we discover in Picard season one.
No, for real, happy ending.
Oh my god.
Because that man, that man in that episode, right?
So annoying.
It's like...
I've got to speak to my government, Captain.
You see, he talks in this very strange way.
Yeah, yeah.
The way she says when she gives him a gift from Voyager.
She goes, I'm going to give you a gift.
Pecan pie.
Honestly.
I hope we can make any line of absolute.
Anyway.
But that leans into the premise.
And then this one does too.
This is about a traitor on Voyager that's made contact with the
Kazon, and I think this is the 1st time the Kazon are in it since
caretaker as well.
Oh okay.
Yeah.
And it's a big mystery.
Well, I mean, much of a mystery.
Originally, this episode was got to be called Cesca.
Do you know that?
Ah, that would have given it away. would have blown, it would have
been like a, you know, a Pyro episode, a Pyro story with the
killer of the title.
You know, it's a bit daft.
But the suspense of there's somebody in our ranks that's working
against us.
It works really, really well in this episode.
And I think there are enough layers and there's enough sort of red
herring. to make the payoff very satisfying.
I have to say that I had watched this before.
Obviously, I've watched all of Voyager.
Mostly back in the day.
I haven't revisited a lot of episodes since then.
And I had kind of forgotten the twist and it worked on me and it
was a bit of a relief.
I just thought, oh, Chakota, you're being a massive dumbass.
What's the point of view?
And then it turns out that they were a step ahead.
And in a way, it has the same sort of resolution as counterpoint
where we see kind of Janeway apparently defeated only to discover
that she's actually already sorted things out.
And so the same thing happens here and it's really satisfying, I
think.
Well, it's more satisfying because she goes, like, wonderful
moment.
Yeah, when she utterly condemns Janeway Chakotay and the
Federation in one amazing spot.
But what is very unvoyager like is how they set this up.
So Cesca's been in 4 episodes before this.
Yep.
And that's not live Voyager to kind of sit on a surprise for that
long.
And Carey, who is the other person that's implicated in this
episode.
In an episode earlier in the season, it's him and Blam Torres, via
the chief engineer position, but there's like a whole subplot
about it, and then obviously he loses out to her.
So you can actually buy into the idea that he might have done it.
So that's been set up as well.
So they're using a lot of stuff that they've already kind of
embedded in the season to give this very satisfying power.
They don't do this at all.
Sort of post-series 2.
They do not, they don't do long form storytelling like this at
all.
It is just sort of one stand loan after another.
Yeah, it's a bit of a shame.
It's the pillar effect.
I'm telling you, I know I talk about Michael Pillar a lot, but he
had a big hand in this episode and he had a big hand in
structuring series one and series two, which is where the sort of
the big arcs are in Voyager.
And he's very, very proud of this episode.
So is Rick Berman, but Jerry Taylor, interestingly.
She didn't like it?
She's quoted as saying, I thought it was okay.
Wow.
Whereas the next episode, which is a comedy episode about the
doctor playing Beowulf, she's quoted as saying was absolutely
fantastic.
So you can see where her head is, is that she's she's thinking
what the audience wants and the way TV is going, is where it was
10 years ago. sort of these standalone, fun, family friendly sort
of Star Trek.
Whereas Pillar is trying to push this show in a more interesting
direction, a more sort of dynamic storytelling direction.
And you've got the 2 of them fighting here.
So in series one and 2 of Voyager, you get a mix of really
interesting sort of experiments and terribly bland standalones.
Yeah, I mean, if you think about Star Trek or Star Trek, the Next
Generation or Strange New Worlds.
Their premises there's a Starfleet ship that is going from planet
to planet doing things.
And it's a really light premise and it just means we can do Star
Trek episodes.
But Voyager starts with a much heavier premise than that.
And so does Deep Space Nine.
You know, they're set in specific places with people who've
undergone a particular kind of thing, which makes them both
different from just a normal Star Trek show.
And what we get here is a kind of battle between are we a Star
Trek show or are we a show set in the Star Trek universe?
And the great thing about Voyager, I think, as a premise is it can
do both.
And what it decides to do is just throw away the premise
eventually.
And I think that's a shame.
And you've got Deep Space 9, you know, on the other side, on the
other network, amassing this massive cast of secondary characters
creating an interesting world, doing things with the premise and
exploring things.
And Voyager throws that away.
And in a way, I wonder if it's inevitable or not.
Because I certainly remember at the time. us thinking, well, what
happens?
Aren't they going to move out of K's on Space, they're a ship
that's voyaging, they're going somewhere.
And maybe that was inevitable that this particular threat goes
away.
And certainly it seems satisfying when they deal with them when we
move out of Kazon space altogether and start meeting the Boma and
stuff like that.
But, you know, do you remember the Beaumont Arc?
That was riveting, wasn't it?
Yeah. the episode where they all had to dress up as Beaumar and
put Waco hangers around the reds.
Oh, that was amazing.
Terrific stuff.
But, you know, like when you look back at Voyager, I think the
problem ends up not being so much that they lean into doing Star
Trek, but that, it's just not as well done as it could have been.
And under Michael Pillar, even if we moved away from the Kazon, we
would have found more interesting arcs and more complex things and
maybe an attempt to make the ship seem a bit more lived in as
well.
But what Pillar was doing, he was starting to amass a number of
like reoccurring characters, like Cesca, like colour, like Pseudo
the serial killer.
And I think that would have continued.
But obviously, he left and they wiped everybody out and se levi.
It's a bit of a double-sided coin, Voyager, isn't it?
Because like to walk away from the premise means that it's
exciting because you get a new threat. like the ball come along or
the hierogen.
But you don't amass that sort of backstory and continuity.
There's nothing to play about with.
You're constantly resetting all the time.
So it's just, it doesn't have the substance or the depth of
something like DS9 or even TNG.
Yeah, I mean, TNG doesn't have a massive kind of cast of semi
regulars really, certainly not to the extent that DS9 doesn't.
More than you think, you know, if you look at it, it's more than
you think.
Well, I mean, we get Samantha and Naomi Wildman eventually and we
get the born kiddies and stuff.
So there are, you know, well, yeah, I know, great, eh?
So I guess there's that, but there isn't really an attempt to deal
with what it's like to be stranded, you know.
And here there is.
Yeah, that's such a shame.
And like I said to you on our chat that this is one of a handful
of episodes that is uniquely Voyager.
Like this could not be any other Star Trek show.
And I think there's probably as many episodes of DS9.
Like DS9, probably about 2 thirds are uniquely DS9, you know?
And Voyager is probably about 15, 10, 15 episodes, maybe.
And most of them are in the 1st 2 series, either needle, um, oh
good, God, help me out now.
Basics, part one is uniquely Voyager.
And then sort of in latter seasons, you get the odd one, like
timeless, where they're stranded on the ice planet.
That's one where they're trying to go home and using technology
goes horribly wrong, but they're few and far between, aren't
they?
Well, yeah, and eventually I think probably the whole bulk of that
arc is shouldered by Dwight Schultz and Marina in the semi-regular
episodes that vary.
Yeah, that's another one.
And like those are fun, but we never really get the sense because
it's just going to be a Starfleet crew and they're all going to be
the best of the best and, you know, none of them feels homesick or
anything like that.
So we never really, really get a proper feel for what the premise
could have been.
And in a way, I ended up thinking that maybe we're in the Delta
Quadrant just to get out of Deep Space 9's way so that Deep Space
9 can do things that don't affect Voyager and vice versa.
I was reading about the conception of Voyager this morning and
they're quoted as saying, well, we need to do something new.
We just can't do next generation again. ironic.
So let's go to a completely new region of space.
And they said they wanted to tap into like the original series
where they're on that five-year mission and they were going out
and exploring space for the 1st time and this, you know, that's
what the Delta Quadrant is. a brand new region of space.
But then they did go and make a load of TNG episodes.
Yeah.
Yeah, no.
I think when they realised the ratings, you know, they weren't
holding.
They were like, well, I guess people just want more TNG.
Let's do that instead.
And what's annoying is you get to like end game.
Even endgame isn't uniquely apology.
Yeah, they're trying to get home, but what is it?
It's a time travel episode.
There's 2 Janeways and it's the Bork.
Yeah.
That's all TNG, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
It's sad.
Anyway, let's not talk about, you know, in the future.
Let's talk about now because I'll tell you what, this has got
Cesca in it and she's amazing.
Yeah, this is a pretty great episode.
All right, what do you think?
Should I count us in?
I think we've rented enough.
All right.
Well, here goes five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
Do you know, I only ran, you know, I only ran because I, you know
of the untapped potential because in episodes like this, it shows
the potential was there.
So here we are in southern California in a very, very low-even
planet, but we're outside.
I was so excited.
So excited.
The 2nd they started, right?
and they're on location.
I just saw your face beaming.
But it is a pretty shitty planet.
And actually, I think that Neelix is super annoying here and
he's...
No, wait.
He gets a great physical joke, though.
He's talking about a horrible stick.
There he is, pointing in his dick. penis.
Yeah, it's so funny.
What do you think?
Chakotay grabs his arm so he doesn't kind of go in for a feel.
Like, what's happening there?
Like, anyway.
That's Rick Berman there.
I think so.
So here we are.
None of that.
Leola root, it turns out, is is ginger painted inexpertly yellow
with a leaf stuck on the end.
The amount of jokes they get out of their fucking...
We're talking about Leola root stew for the next 7 years.
Get used to it.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah.
Oh, well, that's a peculiarly voyager thing.
Can I say how stupid these uniforms look when you have a tricorder
and a gun like in your pocket sticking out in front of you?
Like, they look so stupid.
They make them look like pyjamas more than they usually do, I
think.
They're pretty terrible.
Can I say how appalling it is that we are, you know, this is one
of the 1st chances of a voyager to go out. you know, the voyager
crew to get out in the sun and all that.
And we're not actually, you know, I know you're going to say I'm
comparing this unfavourably to Enterprises Strange New World.
But at least when they got out of the runabout in that.
They were excited to be outside in the fresh air.
That bunch are just scavenging around looking a bit bored.
Yeah, there's, well, I mean, part of the problem is just that the
planet looks so boring, but, you know, what can you do?
at the end of the season, right, in the 37s, I might see, I think
it's the beginning of season two.
They land Voyager on Southern California.
Yes, yeah.
It's great to see Voyager Land.
I love how it can do that.
That is pretty cool.
Dreadful episode, though, but it does look pretty spectacular, I've
got to say, for the time.
Okay, so here we go.
Neelix wants to bring back bloodworms for his tartar.
So that means raw.
Raw blood worm.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, I don't know. isn't that like black pudding?
Oh, I don't know. blood, isn't it?
Yeah, but you don't eat that raw though, do you?
Not sure.
He's delicious.
So, uh, the Kazon are approaching.
Cajon ships are on their way.
Or is there one here?
And there's one here already.
Yeah, isn't it?
It's invisible.
We don't know why.
Are they got cloaking devices then?
No, there's actually dialogue in here about this, that there's
that someone has taught them how to avoid Voyager's senses.
So, yes.
Well, I wonder who that was.
I no idea.
Everybody seems to be here except for one person.
Yeah.
And we're establishing Joe Carey here.
And so he apparently just disappears from the show and then just
comes back in series 6 to be killed.
He vanishes in series two, right?
Seriously, when it comes back for one episode, then they kill him
off.
Oh, seriously, haven't is it?
Come on, Cap, so miserable.
Yeah, I'm kind of hoping that we get a few more people on board
the Enterprise in Strange New World's next series.
We've had some sort of regular background people and we had, you
know, what's his face, Kirk's brother.
But it'd be kind of nice.
I do like, you know, the extra characters just, it's always the
same 7 people doing every fucking thing on these stupid starships
and it's kind of nice if we have more people.
Is this a set?
I don't think this is insane.
I think I think these caves are real.
I think that what they...
Yeah, because you can see...
It comes around the corner now.
Yeah, he's gone from outside.
The camera's gone from outside in and then they're dripping.
Yeah, yeah.
And that doesn't normally happen in your stocks Star Trek cave
number 52. number one, obviously.
I think that...
I think we may actually move to the cave set because I'm not
convinced by whatever that big, big ass fucking stalagmite is
there that looks like it's made out of...
I think the lighting's very good here.
And I do like the dripping.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It does make it real.
No, no, I think it makes it real.
It makes it less like I said. you know, like there's water in it.
I think that helps.
See, now, look, I wouldn't have bought into this, the whole thing
about, oh, I was picking mushrooms for you to make your soup, but
then they pay that off after the title music.
We were a great scene.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that's a really important scene for the episode because it
establishes their relationship.
Yeah, I think it's good.
I really enjoyed it, actually.
I think, you know, anyway, it's a bit cheesily.
I think at this point we don't know enough about the caison for
them to be annoying.
Like, I think they, there's an episode in series 2 called
initiations, I want to say.
It's got Aaron Eisenberg in it as a young case of warrior.
Is he called a bad character episode?
It's called Kai.
Dumb name for that.
But that is the episode that really establishes them as like cod
Klingons and they've just got rituals and it's basically just the
Klingons.
Whereas in series one, season one, you don't really see that much
of them.
So they're kind of like a background menace more than anything.
Yeah, I mean, even giving them the 1st letter and the same, like
the same 1st letter and the same last 2 letters, like Klingon
Kazon, seems like a dumb idea.
And like there is that...
And the one, the makeup's pretty similar as well, isn't it?
Yeah, bumpy forehead.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So when we meet the tribe.
Do you remember what episode that is?
Oh, my.
It's a great episode as well.
Oh my god, what's it called?
Because it's halfway through season two.
It's the one where Janeway, you know, makes friendship with the
train, and then she's like, right, we're going to bring all the
sex together and then the train, you'll try and wipe them all out
with a massive spaceship that comes down and tries to destroy the
room they're in.
And it's kind of terrible because it's kind of like, oh, these are
nice white people and we're going to be their friends.
And it turns out, you know, that the tribal people who are all
fighting one another have just been routinely kind of oppressed
and exploited by the trade.
It's really good.
The guy playing like the head train is so amiable.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it just turns out he's horrifically evil.
It's wonderful.
Alliances.
That's what the episode is called.
Alliances.
Oh, it's a fantastic episode.
State of flux.
What does that mean in this Well, I actually think. that it's that
the relationships among the crew are in a state of flux.
And it looks like it's a title about space things, but there's no
real space things, it's, you know, we're in a state of flux, that
Chakotay is having to deal with the fact that he's 2nd in command
but also the commander of the McKee, you know, the former captain
of the McKee ship or whatever.
So I think that that's what it's about because I can't think what
else it is.
There's nothing spicy that I forget.
The, if this episode would be a lot poorer without the scene that
we're watching right now.
So it's the scene where Cesca brings Chakotay mushroom soup and
details how with a, you know, clandestine marquee operation, they
managed gain access to Neelix's kitchen. with a wonderful comedy
moment where she goes, well, the emergency must be over.
So, and then it's like, you need extra.
I thought that was really well timed.
That was good.
That's been in my kitchen.
I actually wondered whether they cut the actual thing where they
steal the mushrooms, and then just turned it into this Messenger
speech from Cesca, because it does seem extremely detailed, and it
just seems like maybe it was a scene, and maybe it might have been
better if we'd seen it rather than having Cesca come in and just
talk about it.
But this scene makes me like Cesca a lot.
Like she's really fun in this scene.
And actually, this is the thing, which makes me think, oh, Chakotay
because he's laughing with her until it gets to the point where
she kind of breaks the rules and then he's like, right, you're
having no replicators.
How should I say, come on?
Except though, that we're in a situation here where things are
scarce.
And so she's taking stuff. that, you know, she's taking other
people's share, essentially.
And essentially, she's also kind of leading into that divide
between the marquee and the federation as well, isn't she?
Like, this was a marquee operation we're going in.
We're doing this.
And you, you know, your ex-marquis, and we're doing this for you.
It's, I get it.
Yeah, I know it looks, I, I, like I know that it looks like it's a
conflict between marquee values and federation values, but I also
think it is like she is stealing stuff from the other crew
members.
And later on, when we get to the speech where she denounces the
Federation, what she's denouncing the Federation for, or what
she's denouncing Janeway for, is refusing to allow the Kazon to
kill Orleocampers, because that was the, that's the moral dilemma
at the end of Caretaker.
Well, she says the incomprehensible decision of a Starfleet
captain.
This is being a Cardassian ship, we'd have been home by now when
you kind of go now.
That's the fucking point though, isn't it?
And so, I don't know, though.
I just, she's so much more charismatic than anyone else, I just
want to listen to her.
What she up, say, you know.
That's how all good, you know, dictators start.
Yeah, yeah, they're very likeable people.
Well, I think, actually, Janeway can, uh, our does are
enormously.
It's just wonderful acting moments in this.
But when she comes up behind him and gives him a hug there and she
kind of shuts her eyes and actually buy the relationship.
Yeah, we didn't know about it before now.
No, I don't think I think I think there was kind of hens and
whispers.
But no, it's never been explicitly stated until this point.
And I was kind of like, okay, this is nice, and this is
believable.
And so throughout him kind of having his head turn by her.
It makes sense.
He's got feelings for her.
You know, he doesn't want to believe it.
And it's not until there's incontrovertible proof that he actually
you know, turns against her.
And she says, and I'm inclined to think that we're meant to
believe her that she had feelings for him as well.
She wasn't just faking it.
I believe that too though.
I think that... what the show wants us to believe.
She's explloiting him and she has been for a long time.
But somewhere along the line, she genuinely had feelings for him.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, I love this bit in the minute.
Not only because the lighting is extremely dramatic.
We were talking last week about how, you know, it can be quite
flat in 90s trek. like beam onto the Cazon ship and it's all very
X-Files. torches going and stuff.
Not only that, but you like Roger didn't really throw much kind of
crazy imagery at you and the image of the Kazon sticking out of a
bit of stone is really ghoulish.
Yeah, that is pretty good, isn't it?
Because, I mean, we've had this, you know, wrecked spaceship set
that we go on to investigate.
And they've got sort of sexier torches now in Voyager than they
had in NextGen.
Remember next gen they have the square ones that they have to hold
in their hand and stuff?
They've got these sort of double barrelled ones that are strapped
to their wrist or something which seem a bit cooler.
But I mean, this is the sort of set that we've seen before in Star
Trek.
This is the sort of thing we know that they can do.
But this is super strange, isn't it?
Great.
The way the guy's cheek is literally fused into the stone.
Yeah, yeah, really scary.
And obviously it makes the point that they are not capable of
handling this technology.
Yeah.
I think it's partly Cesca's fault.
Why, do you think she gave them the wrong instructions for trying
to bob some of them off?
I don't know.
So we learn that it doesn't have property.
I think that this is the most disturbing for here. is that if you
don't properly shield, your food replicator, it really will just
kind of meld you into the floor and shit.
That does seem.
That's good as well, because you're probably thinking, well, you
know, she's trying to give them weapons or something like that.
So the bit where, like, it's not until later in the episode, but
Landisori says of all the things to lose your life over is a food
replicator.
They established in caretaker, they don't have, like, they never
follow up on this, but they don't have access to water.
So to have a food replicator, absolutely would change the balance
of power amongst the Kazon sets.
Yeah, that's right.
Water's a big thing, isn't it, in that 1st episode?
It's...
Do you remember, he comes along and has a bath and goes, oh, so... to
myself in water.
Yeah.
That's the 1st scene between Neelix and Chewbog. very funny.
Well, he's in the bar.
Can I get one of those replicators to have get a uniform like
yours?
and Chewbok just looks at him, deadpan and goes, no, you suddenly
cannot.
Although he did wear one in the last Voyager episode that we
watched, which is kind of delightful.
Did he?
Yeah, he was a security officer in the future before and after.
Yeah.
Okay, so now they've taken the one remaining Cazon that's not
fused into something.
Yeah, to Sick Bay.
And he's not very well now.
It's a great scene with him later as well, isn't it?
When colour comes on the ship.
It's really good, isn't it?
Because we spend a lot of time caring about this.
So we want him to be alive partly because we're federation and
we're great guys and stuff.
And like I'm not dismissing that. think that's a good thing.
And in fact, colour gets told that, doesn't he, when it's kind of
like everyone on the ship helped to donate blood or something or
people on the ship donated blood in order to save this man.
Yeah, like we've gone to great lengths to do that.
And so it isn't just so that we can find out who sold you the
replicator or whatever.
Because, I mean, at this point they don't even know that.
It's not explicitly stated because he's then killed after colour
kills him when after that scene where she says that, you know, they
donated blood.
But I wonder if that, if that is part of the reason why, because
they're shown later.
Yeah, that they, you know, they, they don't want to, they, they
like to keep themselves pure, you know?
Yeah.
But I think that it's because colour doesn't want Cesca to be
outed. exposed.
Yeah.
I think that that's probably it.
It isn't said explicitly why it happens.
And it is a good scene.
It is quite shocking, actually, because we have kind of invested a
reasonable amount of time in the episode, you know, making sure
that he's okay.
And this, I love these things.
So good.
Look at her response to option three.
I don't like number 3 at all. number 3 at all.
She's so good.
And no other captain would have had to worry about this.
This is not something that you would worry about.
The crew are giving technology to other people.
You could just toss them into prison if this was happening in the
Alpha Quadrant, you know, you could absolutely hand them over to
the authorities.
There aren't.
They are the authority here, you know?
No one else would be motivated to do it.
You live on a starship, you know, you get all those lovely meals
and stuff and lovely quarters and things.
You know, no one's disaffected on border starship, but here there
are people who are disaffected because they've been isolated from
their families and stranded here because of a command decision, you
know?
And what's wonderful then is it just opens out suspicion onto
everybody.
But obviously, initially, they're all thinking, well, it's going
to be a marquee member.
You know, they were forced onto this ship, into this situation
into this command structure.
But I mean, all of the Starfleet people.
In fact, I think they make a good decision.
So eventually it just settles down to suspecting one of 2 people
one of whom is Starfleet and one of whom's a marquis.
And I...
Like, even though in the back of our heads, because there's
something in Marv Hacker's performance, that just means you know
it's her.
So the real suspense comes in how they're going to catch her out.
But they play on that in the way that the story is designed, like
in the way the story is resolved.
The way that they find out that it's Cesca is because Cesca... tries
to implicate herself in order to prove that it's scary, right?
And so I think that she seems too obvious.
She's so villainous.
She's already been stealing food from other people on the ship, so
we know that she's willing to steal things, you know?
And so maybe that's too obvious.
And so we start to suspect that it's really scary. which would be
an anxiety twist.
How long they wait?
to come back after this.
It's halfway through season two.
It's manoeuvres in season season two.
So they're almost way off.
Whole season, which makes her return, where she comes up.
Hello, Chicone.
You're like, yes.
And that's the 1st time you see her in full Cardassian makeup
because obviously you don't see her in it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then we get a half season of all these Cesca appearances where
she gets more grandiose.
Yeah, yeah. leading up to basics, obviously, when they take over
the ship and steal it.
I still think one of the best scenes ever, in Chakotay in Voyagos
when she turns up and goes, and this is your baby, Chakotay.
Oh, God, it's so terribly, I love it.
Oh dear, oh, dear.
Oh, that's right.
So he's now assigning her to the bridge to show to everybody that
he trusts her because you wouldn't put someone you don't trust on
the bridge.
Yeah.
Yeah, look, I love all these dynamics.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And like she's worried about her reputation because she's been
taken off this mission publicly.
And here, like I buy this as well.
She doesn't want to be outed.
She's concerned that he will wake up and recognise her, say, hey
you know, uh, here's the receipt that I promised you.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, I wonder if you're supposed to think she's concerned for him
actually.
She's concerned he's going to spill.
That's the trouble.
Yeah, no, but I think she even even if she's like she's concerned
just imagine she's not the villain, right?
If we think that she's not, she's been unjustly suspected.
She's, she wants him to turn up, to wake up and not recognise her
right?
And so this is not suspicious behaviour from our point of view as
an audience trying to work out what's happening, I think.
What I think is really clever is they put a twist within the
twist.
So, like, even if you kind of guessed, yeah, she's the one given
them the technology, you never would have guessed, actually, she's
a Cardassian, and she never was a marquee at all.
Yeah.
And that's a, do you know what, Martha Hackett?
There's a quote from her on memory alpha going, you know, I read
this script and I thought, oh my god, she's evil.
And then, 0 my god, she's a Kardashian.
She's double evil.
She loved it.
Well, no, I bet. and it gives her great stuff to do.
But, you know, even the reveal that she's a Cardassian, there's a
moment where she explains to Chakotay what she says really
happened.
That is a trick cliche, you know, where they sound...
I was on this labour camp.
It's a genius, very cliche.
Yeah. he had a Kalanora syndrome.
Yeah.
And that's why he's, you know, he's not Maritza.
So it's kind of something we've done before.
So we're like, oh, okay, so we can buy into this.
Well, we do know that's the sort of thing that happened.
You know, like that...
It reminds me of that wonderful bit in a serene squall where she
goes, did you really buy into that terrible backstory I gave you
that you should have complaining about?
Yeah, that's right.
But they don't, yeah, a 90s track at this point. not going to take
the piss out of the cliche. quite nice, yeah.
But it's kind of funny because we're not in a position to judge
whether that's credible or not.
And so it looks like Chakotay believes it.
And then, of course, we're double, there's another twist where he
knew that that was all bullshit because the doctor had ruled it
out already as a possibility.
Now, you said to me, when we were talking off Mike, that this
might be the point where Chakotay stopped being a credible
character.
But actually, I think in season two, there's one episode where he
goes after Cesca, and he's determined to like bring her down, which
works really well.
And then there's an episode towards the end of the season where
him and Jane were having almost romance.
But I think at the end of season two, that's when he stops
offering anything of work to the show.
Yeah, and like he has an interesting role here because he's not
just the person who, I mean, I don't even know what Chakotay does
in a normal episode in series four.
Like, does he read out things?
He sits next to Janeway.
He sticks to Janeway and says things like, you know, oh, yes
you're fiddling with your combatge.
That must mean you're, that's right. your tail. having a tough
time making a decision or something like that, you know.
Dreadful banter like that.
Yeah.
So he's given stuff to do and he's given an interesting position
to be in because he's got loyalties as the 1st officer of the ship
but as leader of the McKee, and he sympathises with the McKee.
As lover to kiss, does that stuff?
Yeah, yeah, it's a triple whammy, really.
Yeah.
And like, I don't think he's that good.
Like, I don't think Robert Beltran's Beltran Gray.
I'll tell you what, though.
There's something hot about him in early Voyager.
He's got a touch of grace to his hair before he started dying it
you know?
No, I mean, and I like him a lot better than I like the other
Robert, to be honest.
Excuse me.
Robert Picardo.
How dare you?
Oh, God, everyone's called Robert on this fucking show, right?
Robin Duncan McNeil.
Why are 3 people called Robert?
That's crazy.
There should be a screen actors guild rule about it.
So, you know what?
This is this is anti before and after, you know.
This is focussing on all the characters we love on Voyager.
I've got a good role for Lola Torres, got a good role for
Janeway.
You've got a good role for Seska.
You know, and Harry Kim and Tom Paris.
I'll shunt it to the sidelines and don't do anything.
We even see Harry in this episode.
Yeah, he was just there, delivering some Technobab, but the case
on shift.
That's so boring.
Bit thankless, but he was there.
Yeah, okay.
He's barely in it though, isn't he?
Kez gets a nice little scene where she's, you know, talking about
the blood with Cesca.
Yeah.
Early hair.
What was going on with that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I thought I liked it.
How weak?
Yeah, it's a week, obviously.
She only ever wears a...
Why would you deliberately make someone as beautiful as Jennifer
Leanne look awful.
Yeah, I don't know.
Don't know.
She's supposed to look extra strange.
I think is the idea.
Do you think Carrie looks a bit like Chief O'Brien?
Yeah, he's kind of like your low rent, you know, non-union Mexican
equivalent of Columini, I think.
And he is Irish.
Well, his name's Carrie, isn't it?
isn't it?
Well, it is.
Yeah.
I think Janeway's been looking through the archives, right?
Captain Pike and seeing how fabulously high his hair goes and
she's trying to match it.
Honestly, it's enormous, though, heck.
Yeah.
I don't know about her season one here.
I kind of was hoping for just a normal French curl.
I think this is a sort of weird look, but, you know, it's got a
sort of, you know, like a Russian hat.
You know, you've got to remember, though, at this point in the rum
those execs are still on the set for every episode watching
everything he's doing.
Is she okay to do this?
Man, man.
Look at her fair look.
I'd like to believe you, Mr. Carey.
She's really great.
She's so good.
So good.
I think I think her best moment is when she confronts colour
though.
I think she has 2 stunning moments, but the confrontation with
colour is spectacular.
So good. don't like bullies. and I don't like you.
Really?
I don't like threats.
It's a tricolon.
I don't like threats.
I don't like bullies and I don't like you, Carla.
It's so good.
And she's so solid delivery.
She's great.
I'm entirely convinced. is a good line.
Look at that.
She spent the last 2 years as an enemy of the Federation.
And he just says, so have I. And I think that's a really properly
interesting line.
You know, you've brought into me being a part of this crew.
So you should buy into her too.
That sort of stuff.
There's so much to be done.
Certainly enough here to for there to be the possibility that she
didn't do it.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, we absolutely know shit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I think that's the thing that she's too obvious.
And what would be more interesting is if it turns out to be Carey
who's missing his mum or something. you know.
Can I just say this man playing marsh colour?
Okay, he gets quite a few appearances in series two.
Cesca's bit on the side, you know, she's playing him on a long
string.
I think he's got, he's not as good as, but he actually has got a
bit of charisma.
Oh, yeah, that's what I think he's great.
That's Marco Lemo charisma, you know.
I think he's really properly good in this.
And striking looking.
Don't you think?
He looks really stupid fucking hair.
What is that hair all about?
But he's a bow mask scale.
I give him a 8.7.
It is pretty stupid, isn't it?
But he's got a really angular face.
He's got really strong features.
I really, I think he's great.
But what's wonderful is how in season two, Cesca emasculates him
you know?
He's like posturing and she's there and he's there going, yes
Marsh.
Yeah, but I also think you should divert to this course, Marge.
I think it's really impressive as well.
You know how they try and go for sort of grunty animalistic kind
of delivery when you're a Klingon?
And he doesn't, he's very posh and clipped and stuff.
I think he's really good.
And he's quite calm too, and a bit genial.
Yeah, it is that it is that gold Ducat effect, isn't it?
of like the sort of villain that you want to hang with.
Yeah, I think he's really terrific.
And just the fact that she sort of fairly effortlessly refuses to
be intimidated by him.
You know, she has the upper hand.
You know, earlier in the episode where Neelix goes, you know
captain, you shouldn't go after these caisson ships.
This could be a, this could be a trap, and she says, yeah, but, you
know, we're going to be humane, and we're going to help them out
anyway.
I love that beer.
Yeah.
Well, this, you know, where he says that's not acceptable and she
just says, well, it will have to be, you know, and it's. you
turned on now, right?
The way she's looking at him, then it could be like a romance
scene.
She's kind of given him the eyes. slap him and then dark kiss.
We learned in counterpoint that Janeway is very good at, you know
flirting outrageously and being very well aware she's talking to a
villain at the same time.
I think so.
Oh, I love this.
So good, isn't it?
It's sort of shockingly unexpected.
I'm glad that Tuvok isn't fooled by it.
It's so good Do you remember when they pulled off a similar trick
in basics where the the Kazon man comes onto for you?
I'm defecting and they wait till about two-thirds into the episode
and then he injects himself and literally flows.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
That's really great.
Get off my ship.
She's so good.
And she's absolutely in command.
Like, he's physically massive compared to her.
Um, you know, but she has the edge.
She's really, really properly good.
She stands up to him so well.
I am so unused, and this is going to sound like a half-assed
compliment to Voyager, having this much substance in its
characterisation and in its narrative.
That's what really stood out for me and it's just a lot, there's a
lot happening in this, you know?
Yeah.
And it means something.
Like it has an impact.
Her being a trace, in this episode has an impact on Bilanatores, it
has an impact on Chakotay.
It absolutely has an impact on Janeway because she's really in
tears. in our 2nd class scene.
Yeah, that's so good.
I think that's her 2nd great acting moment.
I think it's so good.
Such an interesting choice.
Not necessarily imposed on her by the script or anything.
It's just a really, really good choice.
At the end of this scene, right, there's a throwaway bit of
dialogue where they're going onto the bridge and he goes to
Chicago goes to Chewbok, you were working for her.
She was working for them.
Was anyone on that shit working for me?
I really like that.
He must literally be thinking he's, you know, the biggest bloody
fall win, the whole of the Marquis.
He is turns out.
Oh, what's she doing with that?
Oh, that's a pattern enhancer.
Remember Pat Enhancers?
We've talked about them before.
Oh, from power play.
They set that up, didn't they?
And then they all did a little die backwards.
That's what I remember.
There it is.
Was any on that ship working for me?
I prefer that kind of bit of throwaway dialogue to the scene at
the end.
It's a little bit later, I think.
But we didn't need it.
It would have, and it doesn't make sense either, I think.
And it kind of, as you know, chewbox going, you know.
How is me being fooled by her making you feel better?
Yeah, like come on.
I think what's really fun too. is that we think it's going to be a
race against time, that we have to get this evidence before the
other Kazon turn up.
But in fact, we get the evidence at the end of the next scene.
And even Jane wears kind of, oh, all right, you're finished.
Fantastic.
And then he, then we get this.
Here she goes.
Holy crap, she's good.
She turns me on a little bit, you know, when she's this forceful.
Just tremendously great.
I've got supernovas in them. you see them?
Look at her.
She's got her hands on her hips.
The Janeway maneuver, we call that.
You know how the Picard maneuver is when he pulls his shirt down
to straighten out the wrinkles.
That's the Janeway maneuver.
That's a very good shot of the power dynamics on the Voyager
Bridge there, because she's there with her hands on her hips
looking very authoritative, and he's limping a chair next to her
looking a bit useless.
What am I doing?
Well, there you go.
That's exactly it.
Wonderful.
And, you know, go back to next gen, you would have had Troy
looking a bit useless while Picard was looking important, you
know?
things have changed for the better.
She is so good.
Holy crap.
And I want to say, you know, what do we think about Bilana season
one?
It's a little masculine, isn't it?
It gets longer.
I think it's terrible.
I just think it's really shockingly bad.
I mean, season one, you know, like everyone's growing into their
look eventually.
Look at Cisco in DS9, you know?
Yeah, I think Neelix too actually looks a little bit weird in this
episode.
But I do think you and I need to do an episode that gives Roxanne
Dawson a bit of focus soon because we haven't and she is a star
player on this show.
She is very good.
Oh, no, we did the, you know, horrible hologram baby episode.
What's that called?
lineage.
That's mostly her?
Oh, of course, I forgot about it.
Yeah, but she was been swamped out by Duncan O'Neill the whole
time.
Yeah, that's true.
Okay, what's occurring now?
I've lost it a bit.
They've discovered what it is, I guess.
And what caused the people melting into the bulkheads problem that
we saw earlier.
Oh, this is wonderful.
This bit here where Seske goes, you know, you must think I'm
horrible.
I think I'm a Cardassian and a crazy, you know, she really kind of
she really lays it on thick ear.
I was like, go on Marfa Hackett.
Well, in fact, it's really great because there is that scene
earlier on where they're kind of conspiring together and we see
her enjoying telling that story to Chakotay and him enjoying the
story until it ends up with, and then I stole lots of food from
everyone.
Can I ask, is there another character on voyage with these kind of
layers?
Well, I mean, not well, I mean, it's not layers really, is it sort
of, she gets interesting plot things happen to her.
Like that happened with her.
She's got one mask over another over another.
Yeah.
She gets a lot of fun. a character where they can actually play
about with the possibility of who they are and I just, I don't
know.
I just don't think there's anyone as interesting as this later
on.
I don't think there is either.
I mean, seven, I think, is pretty interesting, but it's a fairly
straightforward premise and it's the actor that...
It's just her...
It's kind of that's interesting, I think.
Well, it's interesting because of the actress because Jerry Ryan's
so good.
Yeah, yeah.
Whereas what they settle on with Cesca is supervillain, but...
That's great.
It's fun to have a soon.
When is that ever not wonderful?
that's right.
That's right.
The films all do supervillains, don't they?
Lots of the the later films do.
I'm on as good as Sescono, you know.
No, that's true.
And in fact, she's so good that even when, no, she long departed
the show, they did an episode towards the end of series three
which was a holiday program of Cesca overthrowing the ship.
Yes, that's right.
And then way forward in series 7, in an episode called Shattered
where Chakotay is travelling along the Voyager Timeline.
Yeah.
And one of the time zones he goes to, has says in it.
But they don't they can't quite forget about her.
I'm glad, though.
She is spectacular.
She really is good.
And this, like, this is, you know, Cesca acting and Martha acting
and I think it's pretty great.
We talked about this before.
It is the incredible sob story.
She says a line here that's so emasculating to Shikose, because
she says, you must have thought I did it all for your secrets.
Well, let me tell you, your secrets weren't good enough, but I
know what she's really saying.
Well, except that she says, I only had one agenda with you
Chakosay, and you know what that, what that was.
Fuck him.
Yeah, well, yeah, yeah.
You know.
And maybe that's actually kind of true.
You know, she's a Cardassian that somehow ended up on this ship.
And when we discover she's a Kardassian, that's not a problem.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, she's a Cardassian, but that's not the problem.
The problem is she's kind of a bad person.
What I love about this as well is that the audience is kind of
duped here because we're at the point now where we think, oh, JJ's
so fucking naive.
Like, how is he buying this anymore?
And then you Sick Bay and goes straight up to Chewfac and says
right, she's just told me this cock and ball story.
Let's watch her now.
And I'm like, okay, so this is really playing some interesting
games.
Yeah, I, because I have a low opinion of Chakotay, I just assumed
that he was being a complete patsy in this scene.
And then we cut to Tuvok in a sort of interesting blocked scene
there.
He's so good.
Holy crap.
Hey, Tim Ross.
Yes, wasted.
Oh, they are you, wasted on the show.
I've got some quotes from Tim Rush, you know, in my book, which
when we get there, I'm going to tell you, because he's fucking
scathing about the Techno Battle in Voyager, you know.
Yeah.
There are scenes of technobabble here that I think are kind of a
bit crap. and early on, there was a few bits where, you know, my
brain was fighting what was being said to me because it just
really wasn't very interesting.
No, but I mean, then we've just done an episode before this that
was entirely techno-babble-based.
You know, it was the interaction of the product.
Yeah, chronoton radiation interacting with the biotemporal
therapy.
Like it couldn't have been less literally terrifying.
Like just that you remember that, you know?
Two completely bullshit things interacting to really...
Watching Star Trek's not been a waste in your brain.
No, no, I'm...
I'm thinking about what you've got stored in there now.
I'm going to get Andre Balmanis to sign you over for the next book
all right?
Now, can I just tell you that this gin rummy thing?
The dialogue here is about how they're going to solve the plot.
And it's like I discard enough cards to fool you about what I
still have in my hand.
Like, that's him describing his strategy.
So I'm there going, what the fuck is this scene for?
Like, why are we playing cards?
What's happening here?
And it is clearly just that.
It's like both of them are doing that.
It's a little bit like the counterpoint stuff, which is obviously
much, much better done in the episode counterpoint, the way all
that's talk about interacting spirals and music and all of that
sort of thing informs of, informs us about how the, the episode's
going to go.
I love scenes like this, you know, the suspense in this moment
where you're like, 0 my God, it's happening right now.
They're literally moving the evidence and the music was sort of
rising a little bit and you're like, you know, you're on
tenderhooks as to who the bloody hell is doing this.
Yeah.
But why just doesn't have suspense like this very often?
No.
Yeah.
It's really good.
And it matters to us because these are semi-regular characters.
This is a top 10 boy just seen, this scene in Sick Bay now.
This whole scene.
I quite like how Cesca's decided to put some lipstick on for this
scene too, because I think that she looks more vulnerable when she
doesn't have her lipstick on and now she's wearing supervillain
lipstick.
We kind of, you know, she's she's a little bit more of a force to
be reckoned with, I think.
What's what's lovely about this is she does. she continues to try
and follow him for about, what about 30 seconds thinking Oh, you
know, I've still got him wrapped around my little finger, his
penis wrapped around my finger.
That's right.
Until then the lights come on and then she doesn't even have a
moment where she goes all supervillain.
She's still talking in the same tone, but she's just like, all
right, it's a fair cock guv.
Yeah, you got me.
And because she knows she's got a way out, we don't know yet, but
she does.
She plays the whole scene so cool, doesn't she?
Yeah, she's really good.
And I think what's interesting is not just her delivery, but just
everybody else's silent reactions to her.
Yeah.
I think he's getting to, this is a good speech for him and he's
getting to do things with it.
Now with the lights on and all of us come in. time for an
accusation.
Yeah. in my space.
Folding her arms.
So we haven't settled on EMH at this point.
He's the emergency holographic medical program instead of the
other way around.
He doesn't get to say, please state the nature of the medical
emergency here.
I mean, I'm not sure we needed a doctor for this, but they could
have just said, well, we spoke to the doctor and he said, you
know.
Yeah, except that we didn't get to see that scene where we spoke
to the doctor, so let's give Robert, the other Robert, something
to do, I think.
But this is like, so it's great.
We get, you know, the double whammy twists.
He's just said it was you that did it, and then the doctor comes
with us, says, and you're a Kardashian.
Yeah, yeah.
But the being a carnassian isn't the problem, is it?
Like, they would have gone along with her, and it just turns out
that she's a Cardassian who was caught up in this stupid thing
that they did and, you know, happens to be stuck there.
Yeah, when they were when they were taken, Yeah, taken by the case
she must have been enough, for fuck's sake.
You know, I was on this covert mission with the marquee.
I'm stuck here with you, bunch.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it is kind of bad luck.
Do you think she went to bed every night going?
going to find out one day.
No, I think I think probably not.
And I think part of the thing is that she clearly underestimates
them as well because they outclass her here and all of them are in
on it.
All of this stuff was happening behind the scenes in a way that
she wasn't aware of.
She gets here.
She gets a brilliant bit where she's like federation.
Well, she says federation compassion.
Federation, nobility, Federation honour.
Yeah, but she's wrong.
You know, she's wrong about the federation here.
No, this is a...
Is she wrong, Nathan?
Yes, yes.
Because...
I mean, I don't think their campers are very interesting, so maybe
they should have got, they are just, you know, like a completely
made up threat or not threat, you know, thing to worry about.
They're like the people of Veridian 3 and Star Trek generations
who he couldn't possibly give a shit about.
But but if the choice is between allowing the Kazon to annihilate
a race of people and this single ship being inconvenienced, even
if the ship had been blown up, you know, like it would have been
the right course of action, it would have been the right thing to
do, and she's wrong, you know?
I just, I just love it when people, I've got a lot of issues with
the federation, you know, especially how they're portrayed in
early TNG is imperialist assholes going around to me.
No, we can't help them.
They let them have their drug addiction, you know?
Well, that's why the Federation works so well in discovery is
because we're in an era that needs cooperation and that's facing
various threats that needs to work together and needs to connect
and that's been isolated.
You know, everyone's been isolated for one another for ages.
You know, amongst all that top dialogue, she just had them, you
know, uh, condemning the Federation.
The best bit is the soap opera bit where she just looks at him and
goes, I can't believe I ever loved you to go take.
Right.
Now I'm going. where Cesca goes and she realises Janeway realises
that she can't get her back.
And she kind of tears up for a 2nd and then turns around isn't
immediately back on.
And that's such a great choice because, you know, this is the 1st
season of Star Trek with a female captain.
How is a female captain going to be different from a man?
And it's that thing because she's the caretaker as well.
That's why that 1st episode's called Caretaker.
She has to look after this crew because there's no one else.
And she's lost one of them.
You know, do you think it would have been quite interesting when
you know, she's determined, isn't she?
that 7 of 9 is going to join the crew and regain her, even when
you know, pretty much everyone's saying to her, you know, she's
are gone.
We can't do it.
It might have been worth actually saying, you know, I lost one of
my crews to the Kazon Nistrom.
Maybe he didn't need to be reminded of that.
As good as as good as Mulgrew is there at the end of Prime Factors
you know, where she's facing down Blano Torres and she's like, you
know, if you disobey my rules again, there will be consequences.
And then Chewbok, and then she has to deal with Chewbok, and she
does the whole scene in like this restrained whisper, like she's
on the edge of tears because he's portrayed her.
Man she's good.
Yeah, she is really good.
And I love the choice of making the 2 of them just friends, you
know.
And there's not enough of that, I think.
That's a new kind of...
We get the odd moment where she keeps them a birthday cake or
something like that, but it's not like the Cisco Dax friendship
where they, you know, there's a lot of complexity for it over time
and it ended.
Yeah, indeed.
And it ended in a bit of a crap way.
And it's that sort of stupid, you know, why should me failing make
you feel better?
And you kind of think, Jesus Christ, come on, you've met people
before.
What are you talking about?
And the reason that Chakotay Gibbs doesn't seem to be the right
reason.
He says misery loves company, but surely it's like, well, if she
fooled Tuvok, then I'm not a massive fucking idiot because Tuvok
isn't, you know, that seems to be, don't you think?
That would be why he feels better.
Not just because Tuvolks feeling bad as well.
It just seemed like a kind of shitty tone deaf kind of way to end
it.
And it doesn't end up being about anything, you know?
I think one thing that I took away from this was what a crime and
shame it was to write out Cesca at the end of season 2 because she
is so fucking watchable.
And they don't, Voyager doesn't have a recurring villain.
I gave the series too.
The ball queen sort of turns up, but she's so boring.
She only turns up like 3 times or something, doesn't she?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's something that DS9 got absolutely right, isn't it?
with Dukart and Wei Yun and the female shapeshifter and win.
And, you know, when these people turned up, you were like, yes, you
know, now we're going against them, serious scenery chewing going
on here.
Um, and there were some people that might, like, anoraks from the
year of hell potentially could have been overcover even.
There was a pretty dreary, but great premise episode where it's
like hustle.
There's a group of people going around pretending that they're
from Voyager.
So it's a fake Janeway.
And I fake, and the fake Janeway is actually really good and she
would have been a great recurring villain.
But they just don't.
They just don't do it.
I just think that's a real shame.
Yeah, I mean, it stops being this show, I think.
And, you know, like it doesn't leave it unable to do good things
because there are good episodes coming up and all sorts of
interesting episodes, and all sorts of interesting episodes that
might not have been possible if we hadn't decided to move through
the galaxy and meet a succession of different, uh, you know
adversaries.
I think in, in retrospect, that ends up not being such a bad
idea.
But you just wish the show was as rich and interesting as this one
is, I think.
Yeah.
And what's really terrible is when Cesca is written out in basics
part two.
Do you remember the scene?
No, I don't think I do.
See, and you should remember it when...
The snow.
And it's basically she's on the Bridge of Voyager with the baby
and like a bolt hits the ship and then she sort of like is
reaching off screen and that's the last we see of her. it's just
nothing.
Oh, okay.
When Win left DS9.
I know you have some issues with those scenes in the fire caves.
But she's like, I'll stop you, Ducats.
And he goes, are you still here?
I killed her.
I'll never forget it.
Do they not they don't properly kill Cesca?
We just...
It's off off screen.
It's acknowledged that she was found dead amongst all the Kazan
people on the bridge.
Oh, that's super boring.
I know.
It's the Jerry Taylor effect.
Yeah, it is a bit of a shame, isn't it?
Yeah Okay, it's the end of the episode, so it's time for us to
pull up untitled Star Trek project.com slash randomiser and this
week it's Joe's turn to pick.
So what series are we choosing from?
What's the most predictable series I could possibly choose?
Uh, deep so sign.
That is the series I've chosen.
And it's just because it's just because I've been watching a few
lately and I just want to, and I know we've done quite a bit of
90s lately and we will head out soon, but there's a lot of it.
Yeah, most of it, most of Star Trek is from this era.
So if you will indulge me.
Yeah.
Yep, I'd like to a DS9 episode next.
Okay.
Well, tell me when you're ready.
Oh, I'm ready now.
I'm just pressed up.
Okay.
Your random Star Trek Deep Space 9 episode is season six, episode
15, Honour Amongst Thieves.
Is it a Quark episode?
No, no, it's an O'Brien episode where he is undercover in a pretty
well realised location actually.
It's got Nick Tate from, is he from Space, Space 1999.
And Skippy.
Is he from Skippy?
He's an Australian anyway.
Isn't he a final mission as well?
He's in final mission.
Yeah, he's the same guy, yeah.
And he gives a really great performance, but it's a little quiet
and so I'm going to press it again.
Okay.
Oh, looking for Pamark in all the wrong places.
Ah, which we covered in episodes?
I'll tell you what.
This randomiser is obsessed with us talking about sex, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I wrote it.
Your random Star Trek Deep Space 9 episode is season five, episode
two, the ship.
Ooh, I like episode 2 of a season, actually.
We resolve the cliffhanger and then head off boldly in another
direction.
What do you think?
That's one of 2 episodes with a female water.
Ooh.
And a lot of tension.
It's pretty dark that episode.
Um, Oh, it's a good one.
It is a good one, but unfortunately I have pressed it again. press
the button again.
Oh, okay.
Oh, I really want to do this, but it's part 2 of a 2 parter.
We haven't done a DS92 party, yeah.
I think we have to.
The rules are that we have to do both parts.
So it's season seven.
Yeah.
Episode 2 Shadows and Symbols.
So it would be Imogen of the Sand, Imogen the Sand.
I think it's called Image Sand. and shadows and shadows and
cymbals.
Now, there's that's definitely a two-part because Deep Space 9
does do the thing where they have different titles. like the Dia's
cast and stuff like that.
So that is a thing.
So I think that we have to...
Cisco on Earth. finding out about his mother.
It's the introduction of Ezri Dax.
It's Kira doing the blockade against, um, oh, it's the blockade
against, again?
I't remember now.
Oh, it's the Romulans?
Yeah, Kira against the Romulans. which is amazing.
There's lots going on.
It's Wharf getting over the death of Dax and going on a mission
with Quark to get her into Stovercore.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think that sounds great.
And technically, it is a 3 part.
We won't do all three, but actually, the last episode of series 6
and then the 1st 2 of season seven, it is one massive story.
But I think we should do one and 2 of seven.
Yeah, I'm absolutely on board with that.
Let's do that.
Let's do so series series 7, episodes one and 2 of Deep Space
Nine.
I think that's hang time too, because it's sort of shifting a lot
of...
I think it's one of those examples where DS9 juggles a lot of
plots.
It builds up some serious momentum and it pays off everyone really
well.
I think this is quietly and extremely, extremely good DS92 par.
All right, I'm up for it.
Let's do it.
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at untitledstar trekproject.com where you can find
links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 24th of August 2022 and released
on the 9th of September.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Deep Space 9, Image in the
Sand and Shadows and Symbols.
Okay, I'm going to keep bringing that button till I get Admiral
Nachev.
Told you.
How do you know?
Oh, is she?
Yeah, she's in the search part too.
Yeah.
Okay.
We've signed a piece packed with a Dominion and I'm giving you a
promotion.
Congratulations, captains of girls.
Is she the one who makes the announcement?
It's all a fake.
It a big con.
They're all strapped to a VR machine.
Oh, okay.
I thought she might be a shapeshifter.
So they do all of these mad changes and you think, what's going on
with DS9 in the beginning of series three?
They collapse the wormhile and all this stuff's going on.
You're like, oh, okay, yeah.
It was all a dream.
Oh, that's a shame.
Yeah.
Yes, I had sort of hope that she would be the... oh, anyway.
Oh, Brendan has a question for us, by the way.
Well, for this episode?
No, just if it comes up, but it is why, uh, Noonian Song, Al
Tansung, and Adam Song, all identical to one another.
Except for Noonian song who looks like Brent Spiner in a big kind
of latex sack.
Genetic engineering.
Do you think?
That's what he, yeah, I think, I think probably.
Or maybe they just wanted to cast Brent and they didn't really
give a shit.
Oh, that's my theory.
I think that is exactly right. correct, dad.
That's right.
It's just like, Brent wants to be in that.
Break wants some work.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, well, we're getting up soon out of the cupboards.
Yeah, that's true.
To be fair, though, half the time when he plays it, when he does
soon in the augments trilogy in Enterprise. he brilliant.
He's really different as Adam.
I mean, like Adam's song in series 2 of Picard is that's a stupid
weird character, but like whatever.
Is he to warm down on that Android planet?
No, that's that's Alton's song.
There's the other song in 2022. who is...
Well, there's an awful lot of zooms out there.
I'm telling you, who is who's the father of not Soji, whatever
she's called.
Anyway, the same woman.
What's her face?
Yeah.
All right, let's properly do this.
I think that that's a tag so that Brendan, so that, because
Brendan said we should talk about it.
And I think we should get that in at the end. don't you reckon?
Yeah.
So he doesn't have to wait until we get the augment.
Fistful of zooms.
That's right.
All right, here goes.