Hey, Joe. Hi.
So tonight we are back aboard Deep Space 9 and it's the 1st year
and the 10th or 11th episode, depending on how you count these
things, it's the Nagus.
It was a potential that this could have been really truly shit
because it's a series one episode of DS9, you know, the batting
average ain't great.
However, we have somehow managed to set upon one of the 5 decent
episodes of the 1st series and I thought this was an absolute
delight.
Yeah, I thought this was really terrific fun.
So the other ones, when we were talking just now off mic.
The other ones were, I said, duet, progress.
Yep.
In the hands of the prophets, you said.
And this one.
Yeah, pretty much they're like the big here.
She's maybe Vortex as well, the Odo one.
Yeah, vortex is pretty good.
Otherwise, we've got a lot of sub sort of TNG episodes move along
home.
Well, what's the one where all of their, um, well, dramatis
personae.
Oh God, yes.
Remember that?
Yeah.
Yeah, very well.
Sadly.
But I think this is really, really very good.
And it's not obvious.
Like if you were watching emissary, I don't think you would have
predicted that we would start to have episodes, you know, on Star
Trek, the Next Generation, you'll have a Geordie episode or a data
episode or something like that.
And so maybe we could guess that everyone in the opening credits
would get their own episode.
There'd be an episode called Dax, for instance, that was about
Dax.
And here we have our big quark episode.
And it actually sort of experiments with something that is going
to be a mainstay of the show, which is Quark and his kind of gang
of various Ferengi that we meet over the years, including Wallace
Sean, Zach.
No, this is basically a test that you're right for sort of
subgenre or Ferengi episodes that we're going to get.
Which, you know, I'll be honest, I'll divisive.
Some people absolutely love them and other people just can't bear
them.
And I get that, you know, like, really, when you're looking at
Star Trek, you're not going for sort of cartoon characters
bumbling about, you know, talking about proper, and but it...
Yeah, maybe you are.
And it's best it's really sharp.
Really clever comedy and it's worst. profit and lace.
You know?
Yeah.
But I mean, we had the 2 sort of House of Quark episodes, you know
that one and the sequel that we've both done.
And those aren't Ferengi heavy in particular.
They're quark heavy.
Well, you got once later on like Little Green Man and the
magnificent Ferengi.
I think they're just sublime of those episodes.
There are sort of ones which fall in the middle.
There's one in series 3 called Profit.
No, Google, I can't remember what it's called. is a profit and
loss, isn't it?
No, that's not that swallow. the one where the negus makes contact
with the wormhole aliens and he comes to DS9 and he's been turned
like really good and benevolent and they're trying to figure out
what's going on.
And that one is a bit here and miss.
And there's some one set on Ferenginar as well where it just feels
like an episode of The Simpsons, you know?
Right.
I mean, this one, this is a little bit different from those in
that they've only given the A plot to the Ferengi, and then
there's a really strong B plot, which I think is beautiful, like
just, like very affecting.
Very well judged with a really very gentle, but very effective
payoff.
And so with the time split between those plots, it just feels like
hanging around on the station for 45 minutes having fun.
And like I think that's superb.
I'm absolutely here for that.
Because this is an absolutely a phrase that you have coin.
You have a habit of doing this on podcasts, you know, of coining
phrases, which then other people starts to nick.
And Hang Time is a great description to point at DS9, because I
think you could probably look at about half the episodes of DS9
and just title them Hang Time on the station.
That's basically what they are.
But I think the characters have to be well, the characters have to
be very strong in order for that to be effective.
And the setting has to be interesting as well.
And I think, yeah, it's not the scores in both of those
categories.
I would like to talk to you about Wallace Shaun.
Yeah.
I've only, do you know what?
I've only seen him in a couple of things that I know he's had a
huge career and he started, you were mentioning a few bits you'd
seen him in.
Oh, well, obviously he's in Princess Bride, you know, which is
terribly important and quotable.
But I've mentioned before that my husband watched young Sheldon
and I would wander in the room and sort of sit down for a bit and
he was sort of bingeing it over a period of time.
And Wallishawn's in that.
And he combines being a funny sitcom character with being kind of
genuine and likeable and sort of sweet.
And here he gets to be a bit naughtier than that.
Oh, so, so kinky.
It's one of those old man, you know?
He really is.
But it's one of those things where you think, holy crap, you know
it's like we've got Louise Fletcher Academy Award winner, Louise
Fletcher, as a semi-regular character.
We got Wallace Sean here as a semi-regular character.
And as they go along, they total up more and more and more until
you've got this enormous cast.
Okay, so Sean was brought in for this role.
And interestingly, Armond Shimmerman was a little bit concerned
because he thought like Sean might take it 2 over the top.
I mean I don't think he was entirely wrong.
A little bit over the top.
But David Livingston, who is responsible for the story here, not
the telly player, that's Ira Stephen Bear.
And he directed this episode as well, David says in my fabulous
book from the latest charity shop hole, Captain's Logs, Sean was
brilliant.
It was Rick's idea to offer the parts of Wally Shaun, and I
complimented him at the end of the show.
I said to Wally, you are a totally fearless actor, you went for it
and you didn't hold anything back.
When he did his 1st scene, he didn't even know what a Ferengi
was.
I kept saying more, more, bigger, bigger.
Let me tell you when it's too big.
I never told him to put back after he got the initial thing down
he sat on a stewart quarks, which was the 1st scene we shot, and
the moment he opened his mouth, the whole stage lit up and the
cast was cracking up.
The car still quotes lines from the show with his inflection.
Whenever someone makes a mistake on set, we'll say, and you failed
miserably.
It was a comedy and having him and Almond together was a treat for
me.
I mean, it paid off, didn't it?
It was a risky cast and it paid off because he's back again and
again.
Yes, yeah, I know.
It's fantastic.
And, you know, he has his own kind of storylines and things.
I think, you know, and it all starts here.
I don't think this is where it ends up going.
I think this is a little bit thinner than we normally get.
I think it's a bit darker as well in places.
Yeah, I think so too.
And he's given a bit more of a nuanced performance of what he
lands on, ultimately, which just to come in and just belt out
fantastic one liars.
Yeah.
Lines like, was it boys?
Together, we're going to retake an empire.
I'll die in the attempt, you know?
Such great.
It's so funny. watch him in action.
I think we should.
So I'm going to count this in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
I mean, this basically had to work, didn't it?
Otherwise, we never would have had 40 episodes again after this.
No, that's right.
You know, presumably we would have had Quark episodes.
So here, this makeup is clearly cast off nog or something, like he
looks really familiar.
Um, but he's Eric Trump, isn't he?
He's like, uh, Zach's large adult son.
He casts a very long shadow, Nathan.
It's all that stuff about my father.
You know, Eric Trump's always saying that.
My father invented beetroot.
Yes, I do too.
He's got all these excited news.
I'm going to take you to the live game.
Look at this business.
This is a little kid.
He's like, he's playing 14.
I don't know how old he is.
He's tiny.
Like he ends up being much taller than Avery.
And like there's a little bit of business where he puts his shoe
on the wrong foot and then gets exasperated and then puts it on
the right foot because he's in such a hurry.
And, you know, he knows his father's coming.
And I think he's so, he just sells it.
He's so good.
You know, child actors don't have to be good.
And I don't want to criticise his career post-DS night, but I
haven't seen him do an awful lot, which is a shame, you know
because the best of his episodes, the visitor, all the back to the
show.
He's giving like astonishingly good performances.
But I really buy him here.
You know, like I, I, he's really selling. something about this
character.
These early Jake and Knox subplots that I just adore.
It really feels like hang time on the station.
It's before we've gone sort of galactic politics and we're just
hanging with the catholic and all of that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I think too, the other thing is that this is a very kind of
standard sitcom plot, which is, you know, the father dealing with
his son growing up and becoming a teenager and becoming
independent and being worried about how that will turn out.
Look at the pecking order here.
So Quark is yelling at ROM, and ROM is, ROM has given back some
lost money to some Darbo girl or something, or some woman, and
then, oh, here's the 1st rule of acquisition.
Is this our first, you have the rules.
You never give it back.
I think it is.
It certainly ain't the last.
And I'll tell you now, that's another thing they merchandised
eventually.
Yeah, there's a book.
Yeah.
So, and now, and now Rom, who is a bit darker than we, he lands on
I think.
You know, he's the loveable.
Oh, the whole 1st season in series 7.
Yeah, he's a tweaking in series two.
Yeah.
Yeah, make him more kind of goofy.
But here we get now he is bullying.
No. about being at school.
But there's something sort of slightly horrible about this bit.
Do you know what I mean?
It's still delivered in that wrong way and it's still sort of
slightly comedic, but the idea is he doesn't want him going to
school.
What the hell is that?
What do they say in that fucking shop?
I know, but I thought that was a lovely shot going up because you
yeah, it's just nothing about the episode, is it?
They're selling freeze dried dinosaurs in that shop on the
promenade over there.
I love this line.
Do you know what?
There's a couple of times when they do this with Cork ending a
filthy joke. and this time it's, your brother?
I thought it was your wife and there's one in series 4 where he
goes, and he said, that's not my antenna.
But we actually heard Morn laugh there.
Yes, like mourn actually laughs.
You hear him?
Right?
Okay.
And what's he called?
He's a...
Lemarian.
Yeah, that's it.
And they never talk on Discovery.
We have them on Discovery but they never talk.
That may be years.
But you could only imagine Wallace Sean's face when he was
presenting this.
Well, he's kind of funny looking.
Like he is a comedy character actor.
He is sort of funny looking, but this is really grotesque.
Nathan, he don't know nothing like that.
That is that is true.
And you know what?
He's got the most astonishing ear hair coming up.
Later on, he gets a brush and he just starts like grooming it.
Like he's really sexy, you know?
It's so great.
So he's here to experience Quark's pawn collection.
Well, that sort of a side issue, isn't it?
He does have a real reason for being here.
Oh, yeah, yeah, but essentially we're starting off with porn.
Is that right?
This is a running threat in Quarks throughout all the people.
Fuck on the holodeck.
And, you know...
I'm just going to say, I'm not going to say uses the hollow suite
holodeck forum.
I think it's more salacious than TNG would ever be.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's sort of an acceptance of debauchery in quarks that you
would never get intent forward.
Isn't there something in lower decks about how disgusting it is to
clean out the holiday.
I'm the one who wants to clean the walls when they're done.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Who would want that job?
I mean, I've got, you know, like, oh, maybe I shouldn't go here
but you know, in those gay saunas, you know, someone's got to do
that job.
Yeah, that's, I guess that's true.
Someone's role this very second.
They probably have a hose.
They probably hose things down.
Nathan, are so stately.
So boring, aren't they?
Do you know what?
I could use this as like, you know, sort of meditative exercise to
fall asleep to. these titles.
I don't think that was the effect they were going for, you know?
No, I think the music is really good.
Like, I think is it the best 90s trek theme?
It's it's apart from Faith of the Heart, obviously.
You are bad, man.
It's nice.
I prefer it when it's jazzed up and I know you prefer it here.
Yeah, well, I mean, it has to be jazzed up because the show
changes, but when it's a lonely outpost on the distant fringes of
the galaxy.
This is actually quite nice, I think.
Actually, it does express that, doesn't it?
Did you ever see the original designs, some of the original
designs of the DS9 when it was going to be a Starfleet base?
Oh my god, that looks so boring.
It's just like, you know, your stock Starfleet based.
Then they took upon Yeah, we make it Cardassian, we set it in
Bajor, and they did it as a complete circle.
So the pylon's all touched and they were like, this ain't
working.
This ain't working.
And eventually someone went, well, let's just take the top off and
the bottom off. they were like, there you go.
They wanted something that when you saw it, you knew immediately
that Steve Space 9 and no other show.
And I think they succeeded at that.
Well, I mean, that's what they did with the original enterprise.
All right.
So I'm a school teacher and I am going to say that O'Brien is
really shit at this.
And it's not a very convincing schoolroom in the future.
I do like the thread of this, though, that they run through the
1st couple of seasons.
It's nicer when it's Keiko and it's brilliantly done in the hands
of the prophets where Kai Winn walks in.
So you're committing splashism talk.
Yeah.
Yeah, so.
And there is something here too, where like...
There's something about how racist towards Ferengi's human beings
are... is a problem.
Yeah, we get it from Cisco.
And one of the things I think that informs Cisco's reaction to
Jake at the end is that he said no humans and Ferengis tend not to
get on.
Do you know what I mean?
And this is Starfleet, we should be trying to get on.
And so he's a little bit bashed, I think.
Yeah, yeah.
There was a very anti-Ferengi feeling in TNG because they were
supposed to be the villains when they 1st came in.
Yeah, they realised...
Yeah, fucking ridiculous.
We can't go with it. in rompers with the sort of big ears and
stuff and they kind of went actually.
But do you know, they address it.
What you just said at that point about Starfleet being racist
about throwing if they dress it in the Jem'Hadar at the end of
season 2 and court gets this massive speech where he says, you
don't like Ferengis and, you know, you're happy to tell us and yet
you're in this amazing tolerant federation of planet.
It's a great thing. really good.
Lots of motor. remember the bit in Wear of the Warrior?
It's so bubbly and cloy, just like the Federation.
He is critical of the Federation a lot, and I think with good
reason.
But here, here, Jake is friends with Nog, he's not reaching out or
anything like that.
They genuinely like each other and they hang out together.
And that's better than Cisco has managed and the Federation is
managed with the Ferengi generally.
And so look how little he is.
That's not the most compassionate or tolerant of men.
No, I wouldn't pick him to be a supply teacher. in a million
years.
Yeah, it's his wife's nepotism.
Oh, look at that drink there.
What's that?
Yeah, silken sunrise, I think.
What is it about the guest characters on Night's Trek having these
enormous book Silent?
Uh, like...
So this is like Mr. Harm only for the Nagus.
But why is someone called Tiny Ron?
They hard do.
No later on in the episode where he can't walk and he's got his
arm around him and he's having to stoop really low.
It's such funny visual.
Yeah, so Quark's scared, isn't he?
The Nagus has realised his incredible success having a bar so
close to the wormhole that he's going to come in and nab it off
him.
Yeah, yeah.
But his plaids are bigger than that.
And sillier.
Much sillier.
I'm sure involved.
Here we go.
There he is.
So this is our 1st proper look at him, isn't it?
He 1st line is him going, good program.
Yeah, yeah.
My father needs a ramp.
See, the my father, every my father line, I'm imagining Eric Trump
saying it.
Because he is also useless, isn't he?
Like he is a fucking idiot.
What's his name?
Cracks.
He's an idiot. going to be the naked anymore.
He's like, I'm not as greedy as I used to be.
Yes, you are.
More so.
I love that line.
I love that I'm not as greedy as I used to be.
I think that's so funny.
I've been listening to your criticisms of the judgery lift.
So they're trying to repair it for you around.
You're fixing it.
Brilliant.
I don't know.
Like they have holodecks.
Why don't they have like a giant, you know, they all go onto the
holiday and they're in a classroom full of other children who are
in a classroom.
I know, it just seems...
You know, Cup series 7.
They kind of a baron of that left a bit, and they just beam into
ops, which is kind of what they should be doing, really.
Well, it's hard to tell what's cheaper and what isn't.
The lift is not great though.
But yeah, look, his, his, um, he's O'Brien being racist about
Nog.
Separate him from your son.
Yeah, wanting to separate, you know, the whole point of the
federation is supposed to be a mixture of cultures that are
learning from each other.
Yeah.
And and like the reason that Cisco doesn't do it isn't because of
that isn't because we should be making cross-cultural
connections.
It's because he knows that in a face off, he'd lose because Jake
is a teenage boy.
You know, they want to, you know, like they, Brian's going, oh, I
doubt that.
You know, really?
Your daughter's quite young.
But you know what's really interesting?
is in series 6 when Nog is a commissioned officer.
There's a scene between Nog and O'Brien where he goes, no, you're
going to have to start calling me sir.
Like that's how much log is developed in this series.
Oh, did you notice when Tiny Ron was eating the the worms, whatever
they're called?
He's eating the only one that's a different colour because that's
Marzipan or something like that.
Okay, the rest of them are real worms.
Yeah.
They set up the Venetian blinds for the Godfather scene in front
of the window.
Yeah, yeah.
This is a lovely thought.
Well, that's what that is too.
Giant lazy Susan he's got going on.
Yeah, it's at multi-level.
Yeah, see, the other thing is, if this had been a Federation
station, it's not just that we wouldn't have had Quark necessarily
or whatever.
Oh my god, he...
That's awesome.
But the visuals would have been much more boring.
That's, you know, look at what Voyager looks like or even the
enterprise, you know, those corridors are terribly boring.
And like, you know, I complain about the lack of reflective
surfaces here, but each kind of close-up has little interesting
details in the background for kind of no reason. which is
something we just couldn't have had.
And like round windows and all of that sort of stuff.
I would never have happened.
PS9's got sort of like more practical lighting in the set than any
other 90s shows, isn't it?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
If they want to, they can light it in really interesting ways.
Sometimes they don't.
Yeah.
No.
Yeah, that's right.
But here I think it looks really good.
There's a line in a minute that makes me crack up every single
time because it was like when I 1st watched it, I was like, oh, I
wish my mum would say this to me where he goes, and go to your
room and no studying.
That's great. isn't it?
Oh, 0 dear.
Oh, say, look.
See, Zach doesn't love his large adult son.
He's so disapproving of him.
He's given this toothpick now.
We literally see him picking worms out of his teeth.
Yeah.
It's really great, isn't it?
Instantly getting into it.
Don't we have a, don't they have a grinder?
Like, at some point, there's a grinder thing that Frankie has to
sharpen their teeth.
Because Warf, uh, when Not goes off to Starfleet Academy, he sells
all of his possessions.
So wharf buys it and goes, ooh, how much?
And we see him have a go of it on his own teeth.
Here we go.
Yeah.
Go to your room and no studying.
I think Ira Bear, like Rumour, can turn a phrase.
Like he can turn a comedy line and this has got some gems in it.
Yeah, I think so too.
I think there are some really funny bits.
Like, um, when he dies, when the Nagus dies, they say it's a, like
infection of the tympanic membrane or something, which is your
eardrum, because they're prankies, they have big fucking ears and
that's the thing.
So a teardrop infections fatal.
Can I tell you something about that?
Because one of my exes was a Star Trek fan, and we watched it.
It's not inf together.
And every time I found him too boring, I fell into one of those
trance, he was like, oh...
Like, like the...
It's such a low key effort, death.
I love it.
But it's an a colony episode, so you can kind of just go with it
you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It has to be silly.
We have to.
I mean, they're not going to care anyway, but it has to be kind of
sealed.
Now cork's intrigued.
He needs his services as a host for this fantastic conference
that's going to occur.
I think I think Kira says something racist now as well.
Ah, okay.
Yeah, no, it's like a silverware. silverware.
Yeah.
It's not great, is it?
And Dax does as well.
Like, there's a very strange scene with Dax, which I'm looking
forward to commenting on, but I just...
Well, I do love the fact as they go along.
She immerses herself in Ferengi culture and then some, doesn't
she?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because of course she does.
I haven't quite nailed her yet.
Can I just say the amount of ham that is served up in this
conference scene?
I think there's something like, I'm assuming it was quoted as
saying that they were all wearing their makeup and no one knew who
anyone was.
They was at a point where no one was used to anyone's makeup.
So everyone's, oh, poor Moore look, gonna go away.
It's his bar.
What's he going to do?
is finished work. has to go.
That's terrible.
I mean, it's more the best long term, like visual gag.
I just think he's great.
He's really good.
And they just don't forget him, right?
He's in like the 2nd to last scene.
In DS 9.
Oh, this fella, look.
He's the dangerous assassin Ferengi, you know?
Oh, okay.
Right.
Well, he says to Cork later, doesn't it?
You know, like, uh, I'll protect you.
You're going to need it.
Oh, yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh here we go.
I do, don't you just love the fact, though, that they have, They
haven't put the fault into making a massive plan for the Ferengi
but just the fact that the wormhole exists.
Like, right, something to exploit.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's a very sort of easy thing.
Later on, they have to come up with plans, but the wormholes just
appeared, and so it's like, all right, the Ferengue here, obviously
they're looking for new markets.
This is the gamble.
This is the beginning of the seating of the Dominion War because
them going into the Gamma Quadrant in the 2nd season.
They meet the Dominion, don't they?
They get, so they meet the dozeye, the terrible makeup, those eye
in this bizarre, bizarre sort of gay sex comedy episode. very
strange.
Do you remember that one where the woman is dressing up as a man?
Paul thinks the man's coming on to him and has lots of gay panic.
It ain't great.
But in the negotiations, the Dominion is mentioned.
But it's kind of ceded here for them to go there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
Yeah, look, look how little Jake is.
He's such a baby. isn't that funny?
You know what's amazing as well is right up to the point of Aaron
Eisenberg's Steph.
They were the best of friends these two.
And they started that podcast together, didn't they?
The podcast rule. podcast, yeah, yeah.
Which he's Aaron Eisenberg's wife is still a part of.
Oh, okay.
It's really lovely.
Sometimes behind the scenes stuff makes me smile.
Is it a child?
Is he at this point?
He's an adult.
Yeah, he's just a short person.
I think, yeah, and I think because, you know, he wasn't sort of a
standard looking actor, he didn't get the sort of parts that he
wanted to get.
But boy, did he get some opportunities in this show?
Yeah, he's really good.
He really is great.
I love the fact that they're so devious, the Perengi, that
everywhere they've been now, their reputation is tarnished and
they're so excited about the fact they can go somewhere and con a
load of people where no one knows who they are.
Is this the makeup that we end up with because Wallace Sean is
having real difficulty looking out through the holes in that mass
to be honest with you.
I can't see too much difference between Wallace, Sean and Jennifer
Leanne in last week's episodes, do you know?
That was some latex, wasn't it?
These shows are so weird.
I mean, like look at this.
It's an entire room full of people wearing this stupid outfit.
It's so funny.
Imagine if you... like, I want to watch that. switched off and it
was just...
Oh, listen, best of all, no one has ever heard the name?
Preggy.
A reputation. stainless.
I think we see these teeth over and over again in the future.
Like, I think they just, like, I'm sure that Brunt's teeth are in
there somewhere, you know, like, um, yeah, we do really.
I feel like these are all like classic theatrical actors.
They are truly giving it some, aren't they?
I didn't remember to look it up and I might do it afterwards
because there are people that I kind of recognise as that guy's
from American TV.
So I think they're...
They must love doing something quirky like this, you know, slap a
bit of latex on and come out.
That line.
I'm just not as greedy as I used to be.
No?
I like it when he says...
I'm old.
The fire dims, you know?
I wasn't be about his Quark's reaction when he says his name.
Isn't he?
It's, doesn't he?
The new brand niggers.
Here we go.
He's milking the moment.
And they're all appalled and then realised they've all got to suck
up to him because this is really happening. throwing their chairs
all over the place.
Oh, I love it.
This is ridiculous.
It's making us laugh, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, no, no.
It's good, ridiculous.
Oh, he's delivering this side as well.
When he goes, I'm sure you do a wonderful job.
I just love his delivery.
What a short.
Yeah, yeah.
He's terrific.
The thing I know most from is Toy Story when he's that dinosaur.
Oh, yes, of course.
I remember being in the cinema going, that's the Grand Nagus.
Ooh, Jase's got a thing about oatmeal, you know.
He has oatmeal a lot.
So awful.
Awful, awful.
It's something you can play with rather than eat if you have to do
another take.
There's one episode where he has a Coca-Cola, right, or a fizzy
drink.
Yeah, and he has his peppermint bread and he puts the bread in the
Coke and it makes it fruffle over the place.
Cisco looks appropriately appalled.
So this, like, I really like this scene, like, I don't know.
Um, what, the fact that he's explaining why he's frustrated and
Cisco's empathising.
Cisco is not really empathising, is he?
He's kind of says sometimes this just doesn't work.
Yeah, usually that they don't, but it's the thing.
It's the...
I can't remember whether we already knew.
Did we already know that Nog can't read?
No.
And so he hasn't done his homework and O'Brien thinks that that's
because he's naughty.
And then he does the class clown thing of saying that a Vulcan
stole it because they have no ethics. funny.
And then I thought here it was spoiling it slightly.
It was spoiling the reveal at the end by saying that Nog can't
read.
He can't even read.
But I don't think it does that.
I think if you've not seen this, because I really, really, really
remember this episode and particularly this B plot really well.
So I don't think it does spoil it.
And so it also places it as, it's not just I want to hang out with
my disreputable friend.
It's like my friend is being denied opportunities and, and I like
him and, you know, like there's already the hint there to us that
he's a good boy.
Like, he's a good boy, and that's the scary thing.
That's the key of the best reveals, though, isn't it, is where the
hints are there.
But actually, I didn't enjoy the docs.
I figured they'd be off.
He says, you know, looking at anti-grad things.
One point in this, they're looking at Vulcan's arse who's walking
past.
I mean, I've never felt like, I've like, that's real characters
there, you know, they're watching someone walk past and admiring
them.
And it's so gorgeous, ending.
And Cisco, it's, it's, it's, he doesn't say anything.
He's just there in the shadows, admiring his son, you know?
Yeah.
And that's the thing.
The parenthood thing, isn't it?
Because like you bring kids up, but you don't, you can't make them
turn out good.
You know, you do what you can.
But kids are kids.
They're separate people.
And that fear, you know, like he's, you've got O'Brien saying he's
hanging around with the naughty boy in the school.
You know, you should put a stop to that.
And he says, I trust him.
You know, I trust him and it turns out he's right to trust him.
I did like, though, that he didn't, in that scene, basically say, I
don't want you to see him.
He says sometimes this doesn't work out.
Because he could have exploited that moment, you know?
No.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, do you know what?
I really liked, you're going to laugh at me now, because when I
talk about 90s track execution, I realised how this was, because
it's kind of, it's very dark, this room, and they're in silhouette
a little bit, and the camera moves in around because Zec has to be
right in front of the camera to make that joke about him falling
into the trance work.
And it's great.
That's him doing it there.
And he's just been he's just been thinking about porn, hasn't he?
Or like where he's going to go to get his end away in his
retirement or something.
And now he's dead.
Oh, dear God.
So bloody stupid.
I love it.
I liked how economic.
The storytelling was here as well.
We go straight to the funeral.
Like, yeah, yeah, look, that American thing where you have a giant
photo.
And he's like... so dignified, doesn't he?
He just looks like he's got the shits with everyone.
I think he's really cross.
Some of the friendly culture, I'm like, ooh, that's, you know, a
little dodgy, you know, the sexism and all that.
But some of it, especially the vacuum performer.
The freeze drive.
I think that...
Yeah, it's really good.
What is it?
It's my piece of Zack.
I know, don't you says deadpan.
How touching.
Well, don't they want to do an autopsy on him and then they
discover that that's him there in the little piles of plastic
things.
Oh, hang on.
Who is that then?
If the negative is still alive, who are they selling?
Oh, just, you know, some guy, some guy.
Oh, don't walk.
Here we go.
Magic is about to happen.
Oh, exactly. overcome with grief, are we?
Oh goodness.
That's sceptre, you know. sceptre does the rounds a bit.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, it's it's a prop that stays with us for the next 7 years, isn't
it?
When Zach visits the station in series two.
Cisco actually does kiss it.
No, he's good with he's good with relations with other cultures.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, he's all over Kai Wen and she's horrible.
Yeah, that my father thing, it's so Eric Trump, every time he
talks about my father.
I just, that's all I can hear.
And Harry's totally emasculated at the end where he's like, yeah
yeah, yeah.
I was going to see his power.
I promise.
Terrible son.
It's like talking to a clang arm.
Oh, these two.
Do you know what?
Do you remember when you see casual clothes?
No, no, no, but I love them hanging at this corner, which they do
for 3 seasons.
Yeah.
And what's so funny is once he goes off to Starfleet, they walk
away and then they just look at the empty corner.
It's really sweet.
And then later on, Odo says to Jake, well, I was never chasing you
away.
I was chasing Nog away, you know?
Yeah, well there you go.
Oh, look.
Oh, bless.
Is that so weird?
It's like a night, there's an innocence to this, isn't there?
It really is.
Usually associate with DS9.
No, but I don't know.
Like Deep Face sign does valorize friendship and particularly
friendship between man, I think.
And I, you know, that's nice.
And that little thing, like when you're a kid, like your friends
like there's your parents, obviously, but your friends and your
best friends, like, that's so important.
You know, you don't have partners, you don't have anything like
that.
Maybe you have a girlfriend or whatever.
But like that relationship, I just think, is so sweet.
So many different types of friendships as well, aren't they?
Like, odour of quork.
That is absolutely a friend.
Yeah, yeah.
I'll never acknowledge it, but that episode where Odo smashes up
his quarters.
Look at this drone.
So the drone has ears, like a Ferengi. goes past the window.
I swear to God, you can see the string.
I reckon that's CG. matted that in.
I don't think anything on a string is going to move that quick.
This thing through the window panel that's been destroyed.
This is the only scene.
The only concession to a Star Trek episode, isn't it?
Where they talk a bit of technobabble.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. he's got his he's got his tricorder out, doesn't
he?
going back to friendships very quickly.
Obviously you've got O'Brien and Bashir, you've got Cisco and Dax
you know, and all of these friendships, I can list tons.
They all pay off in the latest seasons in lots of different ways.
I mean, I love the fact that in the end, but she says to O'Brien
you know, oh, you know, I love people, but I love you more
O'Brien.
He's basically saying he's in love with him.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, so wait a sec.
What are you doing here?
Why is he in the thing?
No, no, it's because, um, Oh, because he got nearly blowed up.
Oh, wrong popping up, look.
It's grand Nigga's Quark, actually.
And I think, um, until the twist is revealed.
We're supposed to think because he's so downtrodden that Rob would
never have the cojones.
Try and kill Quark.
And do you know what?
rewatching it because I remembered the B plot really well, but not
the A plot as well.
And so watching it, when it's reveal that ROM is part of the
plot.
Initially, I thought that he was kind of going along with him, you
know, hoping to save his brother or whatever.
Do you know what I mean?
like that it wasn't real.
And then I thought, oh, this is maybe season one, Rom, and this
isn't where Rome actually ends up being eventually.
And I guess that's what's happened.
But I love the way that Quack reacts to it.
And I think it's a classic sitcom moment.
I like the bit where Ron presses his nose up to the airlock.
Rams.
Nice name for a bar, don't you think?
But the payoff to all of that is quark's reaction in the last
scene.
I didn't think you had that nuts.
I'm going to get you a drink. exactly it.
So it reminds me of the sitcom, right, where you've got a couple
and the mother of one of them's coming over to stay.
And for various reasons, they have to concoct this elaborate lie
about some important thing and the live, the whole episode is
about the maintaining the lie.
And then the lie gets busted and the mother finds out about it.
And then she says, oh, well, you know, I'm just touched that you
thought it was worth going to all that trouble just for me and
that it gets for forgiven.
And that's what I thought this was.
It's like, yes, you tried to kill me and all of that, but I'm I
just, you know, I'm touched by how you went to so much trouble.
Just to get rid of me.
What I took from that was that Ira Bear is always going to write
quark and rom as Ferengi's and that's how Ferengi's would react.
Oh, you tried to kill me. to take my bar.
I am so proud of you.
But I think it is just absolute classic sitcom reaction, you know
like a standard sitcom reaction.
This is a Godfather scene now.
Yeah.
And yet now you call me Nagos. as he strokes his strange mole like
creature.
Oh, look.
So do you know, so as a joke, they cut in the Godfather theme, when
the rushes came in and they presented it to Ira Sleeping Bear, and
he's like, no, are we really doing this?
broadcast if they were...
Has he got a puppet there?
Yeah, he's striking a puppet.
It's a vole.
Oh, that's the vault. what Voles are about.
It's a Cardassian bowl because you see a dreadful one later on in
series three.
Look at it, God.
Look at it.
It's so shit.
That's wonderful.
Star Trek should have more puppets.
I'm always here for puppets in the Star Trek.
Absolutely.
Do puppets.
And so Cardassian involves are constantly chewing through the
wires and stuff on this station, aren't they?
Like they're a thing.
They're rats, right?
There's one where Corp comes running into Ops and runs up to
O'Brien holding it, goes, it ran right across a double table.
Oh my god.
The whole sort of comic pace of this scene, race, like, now you
call me Nagus.
No, da, da.
I'll split it with you 50-50.
Well, I hope they've got a taste for sin for hole, then.
Apparently, all you need to do to succeed as a grand nag is just
hand out all these choice assignments for people.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just, well, you know, the guy comes up with the idea and you just
say, I'll have 50% of that.
Thanks.
Yes, you can do it.
Sounds like a good deal to me.
You see that lowering you out there for the name.
I empathise with him a lot.
He went, oh this benevolence wearies me.
Honestly, that's how I live my life.
So yeah, this is it.
The reveal.
This is it.
Eric Trump is coming up with a new plan, which is to kill Quark.
Oh, so yes.
Yeah, so it was them.
It was them.
They did the locator, the locator bomb.
And he, it is, like, it really is Rom's going to kill his
brother.
And obviously, season 7 Rom would never do that.
And so they retooled the character at some point.
Did you notice there was a moment there between 2 actors because
Max Grodensheik is milking how long he's going to take to say all
those lines.
And the other guy, it's kind of going, it's using his hands.
Come on, come on, come on.
Here I go, my dear brother, you know.
And then he pats him on the back as if to say, well done, you got
it out.
Well done.
So this is the scene with Dax where Dax is being kind of racist
and kind of.
Maybe not.
Series one, thanks, remember.
They retooled her in 2 as well.
Yeah, yeah.
She, I actually think she's, uh, like it's a little bit weird.
I guess if she's an old guy.
Um, you know, having a sort of conservative approach to
parenting.
But later on we find out out he was a bit of a rake or at least, um
Yeah.
Yeah, the...
I think initially the concept of Dax was that she was going to be
the old man in the young man's body.
And they realised this wasn't working.
So that's why they turned her into a good time girl in series 2.
Well, yeah, someone who's sort of so old that she kind of doesn't
give a shit, you know, like in it and has, you know, a fair amount
of chill and wisdom.
I love how she, like, did she just tell, she told Ben to go and
get her to go and get his son so that she could end up.
Yeah, that's right.
She turned really into the... and ended up eating my dinner.
Yeah.
Oh, here we go.
Here we go.
This is the scene.
Oh, it's so good.
And do you know like, do you remember when they were trying to
teach?
Uhura.
And, I mean, it could have been that.
It could have been agonising.
It's really good, isn't it?
Like, what a sweet kid.
And like he, oh.
And I think the payoff with their last scene where he just calls
him over, kisses him and says, you know, you're a good kid.
I love how taxile they are.
Look at them.
And I'm so glad he doesn't interrupt.
It would have been so dreadful if he'd interrupted them that
look.
Look at Avery.
And it's kind of like, wow, I was a bit of a prick.
I said I trusted him.
I really, really properly should have trusted him.
And, you know, he's good.
What a good boy.
You realise what they've done here as well, isn't it?
They've reverse what we normally get. normally will get a very
touching or dramatic A-plot and a funny B-plot.
Yeah.
Here, we've got a, you know, massively funny A plot and a really
sweet B plot.
But I do think in series one, 2, and 3 of DS9, I want to say half
the time, the B plots are better than the A plots.
There's some cracking ones.
The one where Nok wants to join Starfleet Academy.
That's a B plot and it's phenomenally good.
Yeah, like think about where that goes.
Oh, I feel so sorry for wrong here.
He says, you have so much and I have so little.
It says that's how it should be.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
We're capitalists.
Fuck off.
I'm not having any...
That's what happened. what's so interesting with their
relationship is ultimately that power dynamic completely changes.
And Rob ends up with everything at the end of the series.
He's up in naked.
We end up with the moon and his Nagus and everything.
Yeah.
Oh, there's a dreadful CGI effect in the minute of Odo slooping
down into...
Oh, he's the glass.
I love, though, that discovery.
I think that is really kind of hilarious.
There are 5 glasses, you know, like when he realises that they've
kind of fallen for it.
How did, how did they not know that one of the classes was, was, uh
Odo?
And this is all classic comedy now, because we know he's off to be
executed.
He's saying, I'm going to take one of the girls with me.
They're going, you know, your sheer presence will be enough, you
know.
It's funny.
It's you know, it's not particularly original, but it's funny.
No, no, no, but I mean, it is, it's Star Trek, though.
When I did a comedy.
Can you see why people wouldn't like this, though?
Like why people that just don't enjoy fun wouldn't like this.
Yeah, yeah, people who hate fun.
Where's the space anomalies?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Look.
Oh yeah, that is pretty terrible, isn't it?
Well, what are you doing?
Well, this is you.
They used him quite a bit as a shapeshifter in those early years.
Yeah, yeah.
It was always the sort of thing, the sort of high concept thing
where they would eventually go actually Renee's fine.
We'll just get him to be Renee and we don't need to do all of that
stuff.
Yeah, I mean, sometimes they put goo on his face and things like
that.
It's a bit extreme.
Yeah, yuck.
Please don't.
Yeah, yeah, this is more in an airlock here.
Are you sure there's not reflective circus in this window?
Well, sort of.
Yeah.
Yeah, there you go.
Look, there's lights reflecting off that.
Oh, there you go.
Perspect there.
Perfect.
I love how David Libson is shooting from their POVs.
That's lovely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Now look.
They threaten this all the way through DS9, being shoved out of an
air log.
We worry all the time.
So it's nice to actually see it happening.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you think this is transparent aluminium?
Oh, transparent aluminum. aluminum.
Hello, computer.
How do you know he didn't invent the thing?
Look at him pushing his nose up against.
That's so great because you can imagine the makeup person saying
don't touch the nose to anything.
You know, you'll ruin it, but obviously that was fine.
That worked well.
Didn't leave you.
But you never read the story when Kieran Odo snogged in his way at
the end.
And his whole mouth came away.
Now the visitor said it was the least sexy kiss you'd ever had.
Oh, yeah.
She had this eggy smelling latex stuck on her face.
Dear, dear.
Just goes to show.
They went for it though, doesn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is a great reveal as well, I thought.
It would have been a waste had they got rid of him.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And it, yeah.
I mean, it has to work like this.
In retrospect, it absolutely has to work like this.
And they would have found some way of bringing him back otherwise
because he's so great, but they weren't stupid enough to kill him
off in the 1st place, I think.
He failed miserably.
What's a shame is the kind of the last 2 episodes that he's in is
Profit and Lace and the Emperor's New Cloak, and those aren't
really great episodes.
No, I don't think.
You got the intendant literally sitting on his lap saying, have a
seat, big boy.
You know, I can see.
Yeah, incorrect.
Although he does turn up in the 2nd to last episode, you know, when
he offers the Nagus ship to Rome.
It's a wonderful scene with the static where he's swearing his
head off, but the static's bleeping or all of his sweats.
Oh here we go.
And then yes, yes. was running smoothly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's just you are a shitzan, you are a crappy Ferengi.
It's exactly like Donald Trump and Eric.
Eric will never get that hug from his father, but he so longs
for.
I really want to like the Lakers.
I don't want think he's Donald Trump.
Although, I will say, I know this is a comedy episode so we can
let it pass.
That is a really shit explanation as to why that they just died
inadverted complications.
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, again, it's sitcom logic, isn't it?
Like, it's just silly.
And, you know, usually we wouldn't accept a hand wave.
We'd be like, well, this is pretty terrible, but it's a funny
episode.
But I mean, that reason, you know, I died to lie low to see what a
shitty son you are and guess what I was proved right?
You're terrible.
And, ooh, do we have we have a good son, a good father and son in
the B plot.
Yeah.
Oh, no.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Stretching up in there, stretching it, you know.
It's just a coincidence, I think.
Such treachery deserves a reward.
Yes, that's it.
That's it.
It's like, oh, I can't believe you went to all this trouble for
me.
I'm going to make you assistant manager of policy and clientele.
What the hell does that mean?
Yeah, I don't know.
I just made it up.
He made it up.
Yep.
And Quark never stops treating Ron badly.
Like that's something that never changes.
That is their dynamic.
No, he doesn't learn and he doesn't learn and get better.
There's the Klingon babe.
See, look, they have ethics or maybe they're...
I think she's a Vulcan, isn't she?
Sorry.
I dont know why I said Klingon.
Yeah, do you know, I think those jumping jar sticks are probably
delicious, you know?
It's like maple syrup. made from the sap of a tree.
Okay.
This holy crap.
So here's another thing too.
And it's this, like...
Just how tactile, like how Avery's touching his head and kisses
his forehead and is now touching his shoulders and stuff.
I believe their father and son.
I do too.
I think it's beautiful.
You know, did you see into the Spider-Verse?
I did, yeah, I really thought it was broken.
Do you remember Miles Morales and his father had that really
really kind of warm physical relationship and stuff?
And some of it ended up being about kind of like black fatherhood
and stuff like that.
And this, you know, you've got a show.
It's really rare to have a black lead in a show.
He's got a son and the way that it depicts their relationship, it's
so well judged, it's something that the show gets absolutely
right.
Right from the beginning.
Oh, yeah, right from the very 1st episode.
But when interviewed post DS9, Avery Brooks fed, I gained a son
from this show, he is my son, you know, and, you know, get me
wrong, Avery Brooks is a bit gaga and, you know, he's a quirky
man.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. clearly that was his biggest takeaway from DS9.
And actually for us, it's one of our biggest takeaways from DSI as
well.
I think it's beautiful.
One of the best relationships in Star Trek.
I really buy it and I just think it's lovely.
And that, you know, like that, that was a very simple plot as
well.
And again, sort of operating in a sort of sitcom register, but
just heartfelt and stuff.
And I've held it together this time, but I did tear up a little
bit watching both that scene where he discovers him teaching him
to read and then he just leaves and then that scene there where he
hugs him and doesn't tell him why.
Like he hugs him, he gives him a kiss, you know, like he's super
proud of him, but he doesn't actually say, oh, I was sneaking
around trying to work out what terrible thing you were up to.
And then I discovered, we've talked about, the character's on DS9
but that is one of the things it just scores really highly on, is
we spend a lot of time with these characters in the same place.
We follow their relationships developing and sort of really
touching moments of realisation like that hit throughout the
entire show.
It's a huge strength of PS9 and it's a shame that the other 90s
trek shows actually didn't lean into that a bit more.
There's almost like a reset with the characters every week, you
know?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And I think, I mean, DS9 is the thing that invents serialised trek
the sort of thing that we get in discovery now and, you know
discovery has a sort of shifting cast of additional characters, but
obviously we haven't had that much time, given the number of
episodes of discovery, they've been compared to Deep Space 9.
But you can see that even though, uh, a Kurtzman Trek hasn't lent
heavily on the iconography of Deep Space 9 so far, it does have
respect for it.
And I think it has learned some lessons about what Star Trek can
and should be like from Deep Space 9.
I think discovery is kind of hugely indebted to it for the way
it's ended up.
Do you know what I find interesting is you and I have done
probably 6 or 7 DS9 episodes now.
Yeah. 4 of them have been comedies.
And none of them have lent into where the show went in the latter
half of its run. like the political drama and the heavy arcs and
things like that.
Like, if people are just listening to this for their example of
what DS9 is like, we are completely misrepresenting it sometimes.
Yeah.
So we haven't had, you know, things with Wayoon as a major
character or the female shape shifter.
We haven't had, you know, human...
You can't win, yeah.
Yeah, we've got some really, really good stuff to come.
Look, we did in the pale moonlight, and I have to say that I, you
know, like I see why everyone likes it, but it's not the thing
that I think of when I think of what's great, Deep Space 9.
And I think it's because I'm here for the hang time, basically, and
I'm not completely sold on the sort of giant who's fighting who
this week.
I'm coming to to the conclusion that your favourite episodes of
DS9 will always be hang time episodes with lots of funny, cute
touching, sweet moments in them.
All right, we've reached the end of the episode and it's time for
us to work out what we're going to watch next time.
And Joe, it's your turn to pick, I think.
Yes, hello.
I'm here with my finger poised on the button.
As ever.
Oh, no, as ever.
Sorry.
Like last time, I've selected a single series of Star Trek, and I
feel as if we haven't watched William Shatner be beautiful and
Hammy for a long time.
So we're going to go back to the original series.
We always have fun with it.
Don't you think We do.
We do.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely, we do.
Oh, I had fun with that.
I had fun with you with that.
Okay. 54, 32, one.
I'm not sure what this is.
You're out of Star Trek, the original series episode is season two
episode 17, a piece of the action.
Oh, I think that, um, isn't it like 30s gangster planet?
Oh.
Oh, that one's really fun.
Ah, that's a really good one. like an absolute classic.
Well, you are allowed to pick the 1st one.
Do you know what I was going to do this week?
Go on.
I was also going to pick the original series and I was just going
to say, and we're going to pick the 3rd one that I roll, whatever
it is.
But we take a piece of the action. can pick it.
I've already pressed it again, though. so sorry.
I know, and it would have been fun, but actually, I want to do
this one.
I want to do this one because you've mentioned this title a couple
of times recently and it ties into Strange New Wales a lot as
well.
It's season two, episode one, a mock time.
Awesome.
So it's Tapring and Stone and Spock and all of our old
favourites.
We were hanging out with a few weeks ago.
Yeah.
Come on.
There'd be plenty to say about that one, wasn't there?
Yeah.
You do know that in an episode of Strange World, they quote, that
musical cue.
So we'll have that musical cue and everything. awesome.
I let you into a secret.
What's that?
I've never seen a mock home.
Oh, okay.
Well, you will know the musical cue that I'm thinking of when you
hear it because it is pretty fucking incredible.
I mean, this is a popular episode, isn't it?
This is a really popular original series episode.
Yeah, yeah.
That means that 2 weeks ago you didn't get my joke about Spock
throwing Plough Meek soup at Christine.
I mean, I average 5 out of 10.
I'm getting your joke.
So, you know, okay, fair enough.
They're usually too smart for me, you know?
No, this was just a reference.
This was the lower decks riders would have thought it was too
obvious.
Well, let's watch it and then you can tell me the joke again.
All right.
Okay.
All right, fantastic.
Yep.
We're heading to Vulcan then, is that right?
Yeah, yeah.
Let's do it It's gonna be exciting.
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com where you can find
links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 15th of August 2022 and released
on the 26th of August.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek, the original series, Amuck
Time.
Let me grab my phone quickly.
I say that every time.
I know I do.
I know.
That's just, you're telling me that to apologise for the fact that
you're in your pants again.
Oh, you can't hear me.
You listen back to this, though.
Huh?
No, no, it's just the, it's roasting in here.
I took as code for when I get up to get my phone, I'm just in my
pants.
Yeah, very often I am.
Don't worry I did a whole one with a practical stranger. the other
day and I had to keep doing this every time I got up.
Well, don't bother you.
Okay.
All right, original series.
Let me get it up.