Hey, Joe. Hello, there.
So, you were a little bit excited about this one.
We're watching Before and After, which is about episode 21, I
think, of series 3.
And you, for one, were particularly excited about the prospect of
rewatching this.
So how did that go?
Oh, shut up. know how that went.
We should have stuck with Dreadnall.
That's what I'm going to say.
I don't think there's been a bigger gulf between what I was
expecting from an episode from previous experiences to what I
actually watched this time.
And I think my reaction to this was different because I was
watching Voyager in order before.
I'm going to go with that theory because I think season 3 is a
really terrible year.
And this sort of stood out as some, something quite at the time
creative, a bit different, a bit quirky, you know, um, watching it
in isolation.
There are a lot of problems in this episode.
Now, I don't think it is without merit.
I think there's some interesting visuals in here at times and it
is doing a couple of interesting things.
But I, now I don't quite understand the point of it.
I'm not sure why it exists.
No.
So, I mean, distant origin is in this season, and that is very
good.
But I'm not really aware of how the rest of this season goes
although I did kind of watch it at the time.
I found this really quite boring, and I think the problem with it
is that there's a plot, but no story.
So this isn't in any sense about Kess learning anything or growing
or developing or any of our characters doing that.
Are you sure there's a plot?
Nathan, I think there's an idea and no plot.
It's a very thin plot and the plot is she keeps going backwards in
time until she gets the magic number 147 and enables them to reset
her and set her going forward in time again.
So it's fair. for a quirk of medical genius.
Although this was just stopped or just a load of techno babble
which I just kind of nodded my head as usual.
Yeah.
But I think, I think as an idea, travelling backwards in time, they
could have done something very clever with this.
And they do that wonderful section in the middle, which I think is
the highlight of the episode where they set it in the year of
hell.
And that offers a lot of promise for what's to come.
But we don't get the year.
Well, I think it promises some conflict.
There you go, at least.
That doesn't happen though, because originally we're going to do
the year of hell, i.e. they wanted to do a season and the
Paramount execut said, well, this is all a bit bold for 90s
television, having a season-long arc.
So we'll give you 2 episodes instead.
Yeah, it's kind of a promise that doesn't really deliver.
Although, I have to say, the year of hell, and am I wrong, stars
Kurtwood Smith as their opponent?
And he is extremely good.
And that's the best story is great.
Yeah, it's probably the best Voyager episode that they did.
But this was promising a year.
Yeah, yeah, you know.
I don't think they would do a trailer in the previous season for a
two-parter in the next year.
I don't think that's how...
And also as well, they didn't know Jennifer Lynn was going at this
point.
So she was effectively going to be part of the year of hell, which
is why she's part of it in this episode.
So a lot of it doesn't make any sense in retrospect.
Nathan, you remember I told you before how I found the science of
Star Trek by Andre Bormanis in a charity shop.
Well, I've got an update for you.
I was pulled into this fabulous bookshop in Eastport.
Okay.
It's on 4 floors and it's floor to ceiling, books everywhere.
And it's like a massive den of, but it's fabulous.
Anyway, I thought I'd search through all the science fiction
business, but actually, my raft took me around the corner and
there was this entire library of Star Trek nonfiction books.
I didn't have a lot of money, but I picked up this.
It's called Captain's Logs, supplemental.
And in it, it details the how Voyager came to be.
Yeah.
And I, you know what?
Obviously, they went into this show with a lot of confidence.
You know, they thought this is going to be the new best, biggest
thing.
And there's some interviews here, and I have talked to you about
this a little bit.
There's some interviews here from Jerry Taylor, who basically is
the showrunner of series 3 that we're watching today.
Um, and and there's a lot of anti-DS9 feeling here because DS9's
in season three-ish at this point and it hasn't captured the
audience like they were hoping it was going to going to.
So Jerry Taylor is saying, you know, we don't want us to be deep
space 9.
That's a separate show.
We don't want people to be unpleasant and not liking to be with
each other.
We think Star Trek should be uplifting and +and hopeful.
Well, what came of that in the 1st couple of series of Voyager?
It was fucking boring.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, they very quickly throw away what could be a promising plot
and something that made Voyager distinctly Voyager rather than
just a sort of Star Trek, the next generation knockoff.
They throw that away, you know, by a bad episode three, don't
they?
But how could she possibly say, we don't want conflict, and then
create a show where there are 2 crews where the conflict is
literally inherent in their situation.
Yeah, yeah.
Bizarre, isn't it?
And then Jerry Taylor is the person who comes in and gets rid of
Seska and all of that sort of fun pays on stuff. serial killer. you
know?
And it's really interesting because then you skip forward to, when
they were interviewed at the beginning of season 2 and they're all
going, well, this isn't really working, is it?
What's going wrong?
What can we try?
What can we do?
And there are a lot more humble in their interviews.
And that's when they're talking about doing all the arcs that they
do.
But Jerry Taylor's in there going, oh, I want to do this.
You know, like, I'm really worried that in the future, there's
going to be episodes of Star Trek Voyager, where, you know, they're
amazing episodes, but there's 2 or 3 scenes that are, you know
linked into an arc that people aren't going to understand what
they're all.
I mean, she was so out of tune with the way TV was going.
Yeah, exactly.
And then we get into series 3, which is where we are here.
And series 3 was essentially like, I don't know, like Hollywood
blockbuster of the week, futures end, you know.
It's all sort of the one sentence premise.
Yeah.
Without any kind of consequence, we're in full sort of TNG land.
Yeah.
And that's what we get with before and after.
There's a few really significant problems with it.
So I think, and I don't think it's because I've seen this before
because I didn't remember exactly how things would go down.
I couldn't exactly remember.
I knew it went backwards in time.
But it's pretty clear that she is travelling backwards in time
about 3 or 4 minutes into any sort of member of the audience who's
paying attention.
Have you seen the amount of latex?
They slap on her face.
It's clear within 30 seconds.
Well, yeah, that's right.
And so it takes them about 22 minutes to work out what's going
on.
Like I checked the clock.
It's about half the episode that they're trying to solve, and they
live on a fucking spaceship.
Like, I watch...
You know, like, I watch...
Yeah, that's right.
If she's saying, look, she's going back in time, right?
believe her, because this happens every other week.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Mariner would have believed her.
Like, the whole thing is just...
I think the idea is, because when I was reading my memory alpha.
One of the ideas here was that is that sort of memento thing of
she's trying to, and then every single time she manages to get
through to them, she's gone back in time again and we're going
through the same thing all over again.
It doesn't quite pay off in the way that Memento does, which is an
extraordinary film.
So I've seen Memento and it is nearly 20 years old now, so just
very quickly.
The premise is that the guy can't remember anything he can't
retain anything apart from short-term memories.
And so the way they simulate that is by telling the story
backwards so that we can't remember what's happened either.
So our experience of watching it.
Is it Guy Pierce?
And may I say that his return to Neighbours was a meteorics
assassin the finale.
Yeah, that's what I've heard.
Very generous is what I heard.
Very generous.
He didn't have to invest any of that, what he did in...
And he did.
Yeah, so he's great.
Okay, I'm going to tie this somehow into before and after.
Well, Memento doesn't come out until 3 years later, so maybe it's
the same kind of thing.
We're all living our lives backwards.
Memento comes out and then it gives them the idea in 1997 to come
up with this story.
Well, I think Kenneth Billow kind of took hold of the premise here
of her going back in time.
I was like, well, that's a really interesting idea.
We'll get to see a little bit of the future and we can make that
up and then we'll come to the present and we'll catch up with Kez
there.
We'll go back to Caretaker.
That's really cute.
And some of those ideas, the ideas are really good.
It's just not tied into anything, is it?
It's not really a puzzle.
Yeah, no, it's not a puzzle, and those were good ideas in all good
things, and in fact.
That wasn't really a puzzle.
Actually, that was a puzzle.
It just had a boring answer.
Well, it had a boring answer, but the future that they imagine in
all good things is a bit more interesting. and it's because all
good things are about.
Exactly the same thing there. yeah.
Here, the future that is foretold is that kids will have sex with
Tom Paris.
Yeah, and that they'll have a child who's like one and then
Harry's going to bone that child.
Like, it's gross.
It's really terrible.
When they were all in a room together, before they kind of explain
the sitch, I'm like, what is going?
this like some weird 4 way relationship, like what is going on
here?
Yeah, yeah.
I'm just going to figure out.
And then I remember...
Our companies grow up very fast.
So, you know, I'm being pervy, but actually...
That doesn't help.
Like Harry would have been changing her diapers and then boning
her like 18 months later or something.
It's not good.
No, you are wrong, you are.
Honestly.
I didn't write it. didn't write this.
There is another issue I have with this, and that is, I think
Jennifer Len is a good actress.
I don't think she's a great actress, but I think she's good, and I
think when they give her material, like, Jesus Christ, Warlord in
series 3, where they turn her into the bisexual killer, I mean, she
takes hold of that script and everyone's in her wake, you know
like she's around, she's killing people, she's coming onto
people.
It's absolute, it's an extraordinary performance and a very dull
episode, if I'm honest, but she, yeah, your eyes on her.
Yeah.
I thought she was given a lot of opportunities and it was just a
very kind of soft, unengaged performance.
I just couldn't figure out what she was trying to do.
I thought that she was really good. in the swarm and I think that
you know, she's got that deep voice and she's very pretty and she
really likes the doctor and that really came out and she had to
look after the doctor as he was suffering from dementia.
And I thought she did a really, really good job in that.
And here.
They kind of give her the other role where she has dementia.
She has no memories.
And so early on it looks like they're going to do another dementia
thing.
And I think that there's so much latex there.
Like, I think the latex is really unsuccessful.
It's terrible.
Yeah.
And so that spoils it.
But I've seen people play dementia.
You know, I saw, you know, what was the film with Judy Dench and
Jim Broadbent?
Uh, where Judy Dench had dementia and it was played X. Oh, I can't
remember.
It was Irish.
Is that Irish?
Yeah, I know.
No, no, no, but, you know, they're both actually.
Well, that's right, but not many actresses are GD Dench.
Shut up.
But yeah, well, I just think she's got nothing to hang on to
because as I said, there's no story here.
This is supposed to be something about Kes, but we learn nothing
about Kes from this.
We don't learn anything.
She has no arc, nothing really happens to her except a bunch of
random things that she has no control over.
Even when, although she has terrible taste in men in the future.
That's what we learn.
And even like when she goes back to the past and it's like her as
a little girl and she's going, oh, you know, one day I'm going to
see the sky and then we'd go back to her as a baby and the mum
says in a very twee line, one day she's going to see the sun.
I'm like, we kind of know, we know this.
We're not learning anything.
No.
Yep.
And that's very quickly.
I don't I don't want to go too much down this rabbit hole.
I know you're not too keen on it.
But this was just before Jennifer Leanne left Star Trek Voyager.
There was every possibility that she was going to stick around and
we were going to have a very female centric show.
That was the original idea.
I actually think Kez, Jane Wade, 7 of 9, Balana Torres, I mean, it
would have been incredible.
But instead, the American population decided that Garrett Wang was
hot as hell and he turned up on the 50 most attractive men in
Hollywood list.
So they went, oh, well, we're this, we're this shallow that we're
going to keep Garrett Wang instead and we're going to get rid of
Jennifer M, which I do think was a mistake because she's, I do
think she's a better actress than he is.
Um, which we'll see in this episode too.
And obviously things didn't turn out so well for Jennifer Leanne.
It's detailed elsewhere.
There was some criminal activity, mental health issues.
And I don't know, it's probably just worth noting that sometimes
because I think the decision to kind of act her off the show.
That was the end of her career.
She never really recovered from that.
And I have heard interviews with people saying that on set, she
was a recluse.
She didn't get involved in the group activities where as soon as
the scene ended, she went off on her own and just didn't engage
with anybody else.
I think she was troubled whilst they were making the show.
It's incredibly sad because I think there's huge potential in the
character.
And I think this episode probably could have realised some of that
potential before she left.
Can I ask one thing?
Do you have any idea what they had in mind when they decided to
make Kess a member of a race that has a lifespan of 9 years?
Well, and she was what, too?
So I think the idea was that she would probably die in the lives.
Well, in the last season, yeah, she probably was.
We don't know what happens to it.
We find out in this that they get older.
She could have just stayed as she is and then they could have done
like a anything like they could have done a euthanasia storyline.
I know in the last season, something like that.
It could have been very touching.
The numbers, because she's 2 and they usually go to 7 years, does
make it seem like they planned, they planned for her to die in the
last season.
Yeah.
And there's an episode called Elogium, which has something to do
with...
Yes.
So Elogium is some kind of developmental milestone like puberty or
menopause or something like that and some sexual thing happens.
Wait, super horny.
We get to that one.
She has to decide because there's the one point where she can have
a child and effectively Neelix decides he doesn't want to have a
child so they're not going to have a child and all agency is taken
out of Kes's hands.
It's such a frustrating episode to watch because it could have
been brilliant.
And they're talking about Voyager being like an intergenerational
ship, which is really interesting.
Plus, the ship is actually travelling through creature sperm.
It's basically the sex episode of Voyager.
It's all very strange.
So in this, there's the morologium, which isn't just more horny
obviously related to the word for death.
And so this, so there's some developmental milestone which causes
it to suddenly degenerate at the age of nine.
It just seems a bit pointless and I guess this kind of shows
something that we can be grateful that the show didn't experiment
with, like having fast growing children on board, except for Naomi
Wildman, I guess.
I suppose this episode shows that the whole accompanied race was a
bit misconceived and a bit troubling.
And I can kind of see that what they're trying to do.
But like many.
I think the trill are quite misconceived as well.
Some of those 90s races, the idea is, I can see why they went for
it, but they don't really have the chops to explore it, you know?
No.
Anyway.
What do you think?
Should we get it?
We should probably go in, yeah.
We've gone everywhere in that little intro.
All right.
So I'm going to count us in.
Here we go.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
And so we get this line of dialogue, activate the biotemporal
chamber and then a flash of light. setting us up on the right foot
there.
It's telling us the answer, you know, like the so it's a
biotemporal chamber.
Then we have a discussion we're about to put her in the
biotemporal chamber, but she hasn't been in it yet.
So we already know that she's experiencing things backwards.
Something's very wrong.
The doctor has hair.
There's a woman there who we're supposed to know, but don't know
at all.
Do you know, he has a couple of weeks in this, you know, a couple
they get worse as the episode goes along.
It's just such shocking American hair.
And like, I think he's a handsome, bold man.
I like Robert Picardo's normal look, I think.
No, a handsome bald man, you know?
I go to a lot of effort to stay this bald.
That's Harry's got, though, you know.
Did you ever see Patrick Stewart when they put him in a wig
before?
It looked just like that, you know?
The screen test.
So this is her grandson.
Yeah, I think he's cute.
I don't think he's a great actor, but I think he's cute.
He does quite a charming job and that, look at the neck.
Look at that latex neck.
It's so bad and the line down her mouth where you can see the
border of it.
Better at doing this now. sort of old people makeup.
Is it just a bit more subtle?
don't think it's ever very good.
I really don't think it ever...
But that genuinely looks like, you know, someone's dripped candle
wax all over her face and let it set.
I mean, this is what the aliens look like normally.
You know?
That's right.
She's not that dissimilar from a Cardassian or...
Yeah, no, she's got a big rubber neck.
It's very strange.
The kid who plays Andrew.
Sorry, yeah.
This was actually his 1st acting job.
So I think we need to cut him some slack because he's done a few
commercials and by all lookouts. he had a fabulous time on Star
Trek. gorgeous, please. nice.
Yeah, no, I think it's kind of sweet.
But again, so we go to this distant future.
I'll guess it's not distant.
It's like 7 years or whatever.
And what do we find out about what's going on on the ship?
It's just not very interesting.
Same as what we're normally going through.
Yeah, like one of Voyages, like just cringy parties on the, in the
mess hall.
You know what?
There's about 3 of them in this and you're right.
There's Star Trek Voyager banter.
It is the worst.
They've got lied at the end, which I quoted you, which I'm going
to quote at the end of this episode. so terrible.
Oh, I meant to say before we started.
This has what I considered to be so far, the single worst moment
of acting that we have seen on untitled Star Trek project.
I can't wait.
I can't wait to detail that moment to you.
Make sure that you say it.
Don't leave us hanging.
That's all.
I think we both know is Robert Duncan McNeil.
Well, it's usual.
Yeah, no, it's really bad.
Don't come home, Santa flyers, all right?
Oh my god.
Yeah, no one at him.
Okay.
So, so the, we have the present here, which is just another really
obvious indicator, and it's one of the things that, oh my god, that
makeup shit.
Holy crap.
It's so bad.
It looks like your face has melted Yeah, yeah.
Like you can see where the latex ends and her skin begins.
It really bad.
Your eyebrows change when you get older because hers are a lot
bigger than they normally are.
Yeah, I know.
That's why you have to have them keep getting them clipped.
So, yeah.
So Andrew is her grandson who is the product of her daughter and
Harry Kim.
Linus is her daughter and she was the woman that we saw in the pre
in the pre-teaser thing, wasn't she?
Did we see her?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, I thought the actress was pretty good, actually.
I thought she was fairly naturalistic.
Yeah, yeah, I thought she was pretty good.
But I mean, they're lumbering poor, poor old Jennifer with this
ridiculous makeup.
I mean, she just looked shockingly bad.
Um, and and like there's just a lot of lying around in this bed.
And then what?
You know, like the worst party ever.
Like the future is so uninteresting.
You know, oh, it's a future and the doctor has hair and, you know
Harry's boning Tom Paris's daughter and the whole thing is just
massively uninteresting and Paul, what do you think of it?
For just 2 seconds.
They could have done anything.
Yeah, literally anything.
They know they're bringing LeBorg in.
They could have had the ship turn half Borg, you know, and drones
walking through and it could have been anything.
Yeah, well, again, think about all good things where Worf and
Riker have fallen out and they no longer have a good relationship
with each other.
You know, Beverly and Picard have been married and divorced and
are sort of awkward, but still amicable, you know, data's
retired.
There's fun things happen.
In the visitor, they take where DS9 is at the moment and then take
it to like the natural, so the Klingons are at war with the
Federation, which means they had to move away from the station and
all this whole sort of well building is done.
It's really extraordinary.
And I would say they're not interested in the future here, but
they are.
Because then they do the year of hell bit and they are detailing
stuff that's going to happen.
And like maybe they don't want to, maybe they don't want to take
focus off the year of hell, but it makes for a really boring 20
minutes at the beginning of the episode.
Can I tell you something that Ken Biller said, right, I was
reading this earlier on memory alpha.
So when Jerry Taylor chipped out of the show at the end of series
four, okay?
And people were a bit wary because it was this kind of sort of
female centric show, and the only woman on the writing staff was
off, and then it was going to, and then Kenneth Biller piped up
and went, well, don't worry, you know, because I have some
experience in writing female centric episodes myself.
Go and watch before and after.
He literally started this episode.
So I think maybe the focus here is not supposed to be sort of the
details around her, but Kez.
But there's just not enough said about Kez.
No, but she can't remember anything.
And she doesn't know who these people are.
And so we hear about these relationships starting, but we don't
see them.
I mean, we see we see her giving birth to Linus a bit later on.
Oh, Jesus.
How is it they've given them?
They have given Jennifer Leanne this incredible old age makeup
right?
And this is clearly what a decade or so in the future.
Chakotay doesn't look a bit different from normal.
No.
Yeah.
Oh, here we go.
Now we're back even further.
So her body temperature drops to 14.8 or something just before
hotel, isn't it?
She goes, I'm getting cold.
Yeah, and then she hops.
But the normal ocamp and body temperature is about 16 degrees.
Now a human being is 38. something.
At the right time, you know, I'm about 50 degrees at the right
time.
How do the men have sex with someone who is 16 degrees?
Nathan, why are you thinking about that?
Honestly.
I just want to know how they how they keep it up.
Like, it's cold.
It's like getting a spoon out of the fridge to make it go down.
It's just...
I shall ask...
Draper, honestly, all right?
Yes, would you?
He can write volume two.
Yes, I just don't think that that's, you know, that's someone
comfortable to hug, cuddle up to in bed or anything like that.
I just think that's miserable.
So and again, you know, the present is an obvious thing.
I quite like this thing because I thought that they convinced as a
family unit, just on that level.
I thought that's what they were basically trying to do.
But the whole sort of them treating her with kid gloves because
she's got dementia.
Yeah, I wasn't really getting that, you know?
I don't know, maybe it's a bit too subtle.
Well, I'm worried about her right eye because the makeup there is
really bad.
Look, she can barely keep that right eye open.
Look, it's really terrible.
Like, it's getting in the way of her performance.
No, so miserable, isn't it?
Surely when the Russians came in.
They said, should we reshoot this?
No, let's make up.
It'll do.
So, yeah.
So I think by now we already know, and we are how far into the
episode, like we're 8 minutes in.
I think we've known for some time what this weird mystery is.
And so what are we doing?
Like, who cares now?
We are waiting for everybody else to catch up.
Yeah, and nothing fun or interesting happens.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, the present, he, Andrew gives her the present.
Then he's making the present and he's sad that it wasn't ready in
time for the party, which is about to happen because it was in the
recent past.
Like, that's it, like the present?
Like, what else?
Like, not interesting. details in there.
But we've said, haven't we?
Like in Kazman Trek, how they get that sort of domestic angle
right?
And it feels very natural.
Why is it so boring here?
Yeah, and like they could be doing interesting or clever things.
You know, if we're getting a storytold in the opposite order that
if you were clever enough, you could actually make that
interesting.
And then there's this right, that this event causes Andrew and
Linnis never to have been born.
Yeah.
Well, I don't quite understand why any of this future doesn't come
to be.
Oh, well, because they actually say it.
There's some lines of dialogue later, that every time she appeared
in the past, she derailed, but by acting differently from how she
would have originally, she derails that future and kind of makes
it...
What's the point?
Well, there you go.
That's exactly it.
And so that's why, and that's the other thing.
The thrilling thing is that in a hilarious comedy scene where you
see Balana and Shayla killed in just one of the most ineptly stage
scenes I've ever seen.
I've just spat my drink all over.
Will you stop being so funny, please?
It's really bad.
And but then we are assured that it won't happen because this
future never happens.
In that sequence, right?
My wife was in the room and he goes, that one there with a long
hair.
Isn't she the short-aired one that runs the bar?
I'm like, you really don't understand Star Trek.
You've never watched it before and you're like.
And then they both died, right?
And I went, oh, how boring.
This is a future that never came to be.
They could have been decapitated or like, you know, Captain
Garrett.
They could have had shrapnel in their heads or something, you
know?
Oh my god. so bad.
I think maybe because the idea has so much potential.
That's why we're kind of annoyed here.
Because it would have been really interesting.
Yeah.
Yes, it could have been really interesting, but it's not.
It's really boring.
I'm going to spend the rest of this episode cleaning up my desk
honestly.
If I take a drink again, stop making jokes, all right.
I was being serious.
Robert Duncan McNeil.
Oh, here we go.
Is this the bad acting?
So I said to you, the usual bad acting?
No, this isn't it.
It's in a minute, though.
I said to you that he is like the ultimate murder she wrote
performer in Star Trek.
And what is it you said?
Well, I said that he would have been pretty substandard in an
episode of Murder.
She wrote.
I can't think of a more of an insult to someone back then.
I just think he's massively unlikeable and not very good.
And he is struggling with that sort of bullshit bro-ish kind of
dialogue that he's given, which doesn't help.
You know he's a really annoying white guy in this show.
And, oh, here we go.
We're back in time again.
And he is kneeling.
Do you know what?
Actually, when need it turned up.
I was like, oh, Neelix.
I was like, what's happened to me?
Yeah, yeah.
In fact, Neelix gets one funny line, I think, here, happy night.
You know, he's been he's been peddling off those cakes made out of
Jabalian fudge for years, you know.
It does look quite delicious, actually.
I'd have a slice of that.
It does look good.
I did like the line about because this is post then breaking up.
So I did like the line about.
And when she has to try and when finally convinced them, she goes
to Neelix and says, look, I'm going to have to tell you something
all right?
and you'll believe me.
So it does lean into the fact that they have a history and they
are close.
Well, in fact, remember that when she blows the candles out just
now, he says, ah, I see the old lung is still working, yes, because
she donated...
I'd forgotten about mine. steal his lungs.
That was one of the best ever episodes.
Although, do you remember the one where Baby Q literally sewed up
his mouth so he couldn't talk anymore?
That was even better.
No, but so he's a security officer, which I think is kind of cute
in this. so that's why he's wearing a Starfleet uniform.
And again, like that hints at something, like, is it possible that
we could have had a more interesting future than this?
Like they make changes to the characters, but they're not
interesting changes.
They don't tell us anything about the characters.
It's like, oh, so Neelix is a security guard now.
Yeah, like that would, that would just never happen, would it?
I mean, Chewbong would just not let that happen.
Well, in fact, there is a cute little exchange between the 2 of
them, which kind of was cute.
Well, like it was almost a joke and so I kind of reaching for
things here.
But it was almost a joke and it is, you know, how annoying it
would be for Tuvok to have Neelix's... which I think, yep, you
know, because, I mean, I think Neelix and Tuvok, it never works
because the dialogue is so poor.
But I mean, they're both...
You sometimes find the odd mode.
The bit where he does is in need it's his last episode and things
like that.
Yeah, there are.
And the bit where it meld, where he simulates Neelix and then
strangles him up against the wall.
I mean, that's priceless, that scene.
But you know what it is?
Leaning back into what Jerry Taylor said about, you know, we want
to make all the characters nicely nice.
I think that's part of the problem is everyone's so fucking nice.
It's fucking nice on discovery.
Like everyone on Discovery is nice.
They're not?
You've got George on Discovery. trying to kill everybody.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But apart from that, like the current regular crew at the, as it
stands at the end of series four, everyone loves one another and
that's what the show is about.
They put them in situations where there's proper tension between
them, you know?
This is just, this is just, I don't know.
I was fucking watching neighbours right now, you know?
everyone's just so lovely.
Well, in fact, I think neighbours generally does a better job of
relationships between characters than this.
Maybe like Murder Shiro. honestly, your hit list is...
You know what?
I think murder she rope does a better mystery.
Yeah, well, no, we solved this mystery in a few minutes, and
they're still fucking working it out.
Like they still have no idea what's happening.
And they just go like, okay, which time travel cliche haven't we
done yet?
Right.
We've done the, you know, this, well, that's what lower decks
would do.
Exactly what I would have laid this out in a second.
And so they're kind of working out that it's a sort of time.
Oh, here we go.
Now the doctor's working it out.
How far in are we?
No, no, he thinks she's got precognition.
She thinks it's psychic and it's not a time thing at all.
We just shouldn't be this far ahead of the character.
No, absolutely not.
Because I think, are they holding back on being more interesting
because there's a mystery?
Because the mystery is really very easy to solve.
And so what have we got left?
Well, maybe they're holding back because the solution is going to
be so terrifyingly clever and not a hand wave of taking them
back.
No, I know.
No, it's not.
No.
I think we might be approaching the moment now with the worst
piece of acting so far seen.
Well, the previous contender was Tom Paris and Blonde Torres in
this exact room where Tom Paris was going, come on, B'lana.
Talk to me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, no, it's not just yet.
Well, I'm going to tell you what it is because we can enjoy the
moment when it comes.
It's the bit where the camera's straight in its face when she
vanishes and he just goes, you know, no, don't leave.
It's so mad dramatic and unconvincing.
It's awful.
I was just like sitting there watching it in my hands going out.
How did they let this through?
Like who's looking at the rushes?
It's really...
You know what?
I did not believe this relationship for a 2nd between Tom Harrison
Kess.
There is no chemistry there.
It's certainly not sexy, you know, like, no, I don't know what it
is.
I don't know.
Oh, wait, this dialogue here?
Oh boy, was Neelix jealous when we 1st met?
I know all of this.
Like, why do we care?
And there was the worst thing about the show.
Like, I reckon it's what ruins Neelix's character more than
anything else.
Like, I think he's quite sweet and jolly and irritating.
You know, like I don't dislike him at all.
And sometimes he's quite good, but that was awful, and that was
his main character, beat.
Initially.
Oh, the one pirate pirate situation.
Is that what it's called?
where the 2 of them end up on the planet with the Muppet that they
have to try and bring up between them.
It's a new loaf for Star Trek, I'm telling you.
Yeah, and this...
Robert Duncan McNeil, the close-up here, you know, chance to
emote.
And look, Joe Carey gets name checked.
So that's a bit annoying, isn't it?
They're telling us all the things we're about to see.
We're about to see them die, aren't we?
So don't tell us what's coming.
Well, unless you're going to make that suspenseful when it comes
you know, unless, but also, like it's a year of hell, but we
didn't really realise that it would just be B'Elana.
Janeway standing next to one another and then falling over when a
console explodes.
I didn't see if there was any rocks, but I'll look out this time.
I reckon, but that was it. was the shitty thing.
Like, can I just say the console sometimes explode and kill our
characters is the most bullshit thing about Star Trek ever.
Like, like, it's so lazy and so pathetic and it's because it's
cheap.
You know, it's because it's realisable.
You know, we can't have them sucked out into space because that
would cost money.
And so all we're going to do is set off a little bomb in the set
and have them fall over.
Once again, all you need to do is exercise your creativity for 2
minutes and you could think up something a bit more interesting
you know?
She's trapped it all away.
And they fall down a great height or something like that.
Oh, they're in a shuttlecraft that, you know, like, is trying to
get back and explodes, just, like, even that's more expensive.
I don't know if you noticed.
They only put just a tiny bit of makeup on their faces to show
that they were dead, you know?
It's really bad.
Honestly, their heads should have been over there somewhere, you
know?
Yeah, yeah.
So here we go.
Now we know what's happening and now, oh, look, now Kess has lost
the makeup, which is kind of nice.
So she, unless, let's be honest, Jennifer Leanne looks beautiful
there. beautiful, isn't she?
Yeah.
This is when I started getting confused because I'm like, okay, her
daughter's still old.
She's young, a lot younger.
Yeah Yeah, so there is some dialogue saying that she's too.
She's the same age as when Kess came on board or something like
that.
This was a bit where I felt it felt a bit like a swinger's party
you know, just but there's a baby there as well.
I'll just boning each other's family members.
It's a little bit upsetting.
So, yeah.
But I suppose actually, you know, they are, you know, trapped
70,000 light years away.
Oh, going to get a bit incestuous on Voyager, isn't it?
Yeah, there are some adult females though.
There are people older than them.
The Laney sisters.
It's the Delaney sister.
Yeah, we're still trying to figure this out now, honestly.
So I think the jump to the year of hell is actually a bit of a
relief.
Yeah.
No, well, she knows what's happening, I think.
And she, she's kind of, are they working out that the reason that
she's affected in this way is the chroniton particles, like she'd
worked that out just as she jumped here.
And so now she's able to explain it to the doctor.
And so each jump she learns more about what's going on.
But it's just not very interesting.
It's kind of like there's space radiation interacting with the
space now. box.
Like whatever.
This is the most tedious.
Technophable reason for anything, isn't it?
Yeah.
And I know that's what Star Trek does, and I know that's what it's
always goes on.
I think even Kursman Trait would tell the story.
And obviously, there would be a technobabble reason.
It would have more interesting character stuff in it, but...
But this, but that's the crux.
Like this plot is she figures out the technobabble reason why
she's jumping back in time.
She finds the reading on her tricorder.
She tells it to the doctor who puts her in the thing.
She goes back in time for a bit for no readily apparent reason and
then she comes back forward in time.
Everything's fine.
And that's the plot.
And that's boring.
And then the story is nothing.
Like, there's nothing here.
The plot is thin.
I think, as we've said, the details are uninteresting.
And she's a little flat.
So all those 3 things together.
Yeah, I just can't blame her for being flat because I think that
she would have to be there going, what the fuck do I do with
this?
Like, what do I do with this?
How am I feeling?
Yeah, this was, you know, Kate Mulgrew. hell out of this stuff.
Yeah, yeah, maybe.
Maybe.
But, you know, like again, she's having to act through that
fucking latex as well.
And like the whole thing is just a little bit kind of weird and
upsetting, I think.
Oh, this whole scene is technobabble. you see this?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So at this point, I probably was on my phone, you know, going, well
let me know when you're done.
But the entire scene exists to set up the scene later on where she
goes and finds the torpedo and does the reading on her, you know
thing.
But anything that requires this much setup needs to be rethought.
Like anything that needs to be propped up with that much
exposition should be cut or simplified because the scene itself is
boring and there's nothing to it.
No one's feeling anything.
They just explaining this stuff to each other.
Wouldn't it have been like more rewarding if, you know, obviously
we go right back to the point where she's conceived.
And then, I don't know, through what the journey that she's gone
through, that then has a profound effect on where she is now when
she gets there again.
I mean, you know, like her character has changed in some way.
But even that I don't think would be good enough because it would
leave us with sort of 30 minutes of her just faffing and nothing
interesting happening to her and she there's a really terrible
special effects montage and she's learned a valuable lesson from
that.
And they almost, like they throw in a line of dialogue where she
says, oh, if I've learned anything from these recent things, it's
that there's no time like the present.
You just think, well, wow, that's super interesting.
But like in when they do this in the future.
When they do these sort of resets, like this, none of this ever
happened.
Well, in here, it's just bollocks, it's bullshit.
It doesn't mean anything.
It's just, this is what could happen.
But actually, it's not going to.
In timeless, when the ship crashes down into the ice planet, that
wonderful scene at the end where Harry leaves a message to himself
and there's a real, there's a fant- it's so touching, and it's
like, you know, you've got the potential to do this, and it has a
point in year of hell.
Even more brilliantly, I think, because it does annoy me that the
year of hell is erased. because I feel like they could have just
limped on for a bit and done the repairs, but it has that
spectacular explosion and everything.
It's not about our characters.
That's all reset.
It's about the guest character.
And the last scene is him.
Not an evil villain like he is in the year of hell.
Actually, his wife comes in and says, come on, I'm going to take
you away, get away from that and we're not going to go there.
And the reset has a purpose for him.
Yeah, yeah.
But they can do it.
And it's wonderful.
I mean, that's terrific that ending.
I think that's superb.
I mean, I hate them.
I hate the rich.
Here we go.
Here we go, here we go.
This is it.
He's laughing.
Oh my god.
Wait for it.
I thought it was the happiest day of my life.
Oh, Jesus.
Every day, Nathan.
It gets better.
But then she's staring at him like a absolute moron.
Like, what the hell?
when you start so dumb, I like this, it's like terrible. happen
any minute?
Because the temperature has dropped.
No, prepare yourself.
Prepare yourself under the cheer emotion that he's going to
deliver.
Even the, you know, him walking through the, um, the containment
field looked as cheap as hell.
Like it was the most perfunctory special effect.
But you know what, like, you know, this is going to be shit.
So I'm going to talk over it.
I want to compare this.
I know it is a lot.
But I want to show you, talk about a time when this worked.
This exact scene worked.
Do you remember the visitor?
Do you remember where Cisco came back and he's holding Jake's face
and he says, look, just go on with your life.
I'm not going to be around, blah, blah, blah.
Then Cisco vanishes, just like this, and Jake is like, don't leave
me, and it is so moving.
In here, you've got to keep Robert Duncan McNeil going...
Oh no, spare me.
Spare me watching her give birth, please.
Do you know, I think the sound effects of her giving Bertha
absolutely hilariously gross.
Like they're sort of popping and cracking.
They talk about a snack.
So I'm assuming it's like an egg. cracking or something.
No, but there's also, I can see her toes, which I think is
wonderful.
Like just, you know, the, that Ocampans have breech births all the
time.
And so you say I can see I can see her toes.
It's covered in gunk.
At least they've done the effort there.
Usually babies come out.
Yeah, it's a time pristine.
Eyes are open though, which is not a thing.
And and hilariously, uh, no baby is going to stay still enough or
tolerate having a camp and ears put on it.
And so they just haven't bothered with that.
Ears must grow in later.
Yeah, Nathan, do you know who directed this episode?
Who?
It's Alan Croeca.
And how I rate him as one of the best Star Trek 90s Star Trek
direct.
He did like Sacrifice of Angels, what you leave behind, all of
those big hit in DS9 ones.
Yeah.
This is his 1st Voyager.
And I think it's an interesting episode to give it, but I don't
know.
I don't think he actually gets the grips visually with everything
he could have done with this.
One of the impressive visuals you talked about before.
No, I see.
Okay, well, shut up.
Yeah, no, but I only thought there were some impressive visuals.
I just...
No, I like someone of cards, like the cart to her hanging there
with her Sacko.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, some of those are quite nice.
They made me sort of sit back and go, oh, where are we now?
You know?
Yeah.
I don't think I once used the word impressive, you know.
I said quite nice.
Okay.
I did think that little exterior.
Oh, look, here we go.
That little exterior shot of the shuttle turning up was actually
pretty reasonable.
So again, like everything's a bit too pristine.
The camera's just tracking in a very casual way, despite the fact
we're in the middle of... repair. telling you now, that ship is
beaten to buggery.
Yeah, yeah.
There's one sequence where literally all the walls are hanging in
and the whole floor is covered in smoke and it's just
unrecognisable from the voyager that we normally spend time on.
So as a trailer, it's not actually giving us the true extent of
what's going to occur.
So the ship that turns up later, the Krenim ship that turns up and
fires on them.
Is that what Kurtzwood Smith's ship looks like?
I can't remember.
It's got like a big claw thing at the front. remember that.
And the beam comes out and then there's a wonderful CGI effect
where a whole planet changes, you know, because that's what they
do.
They change the timeline of a whole planet.
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's pretty spectacular.
I can say that again.
I mean, that gave it a human scale, didn't it?
The fact that he's trying to find a timeline where his wife and
child still exist or something.
Oh, yeah, look, I'd have this holiday program.
No, no, no.
This is the world in the background.
Yes, he's got some pretty guys in it, but like, oh, I hate this
holiday program.
I just think it, this exemplifies Sirius 3 of Voyager, this very
tedious.
Let's all have fun.
It's so bland.
It's so boring.
So it's actually...
It's a massive relief to see Roxanne at this point because
everyone's been so boring and she's pretty good.
Like, she's pretty great.
See, this ship looks pretty good.
Yeah, so here we go.
I think it's a little bit different, actually.
I think it is.
But, you know, this isn't the timeline that we end up in.
So don't worry.
No, I suppose, but I don't really.
Oh my god, Kate Mould Group, thank goodness.
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
Like, why not kill off Chakotay?
We would barely have noticed. you know, and who knows at all?
Yeah.
I mean, you know, again, it's shocking that he's called Captain
Chakotay or whatever, we know that, you know, um, Janeway must be
dead, but, like, I think the only, the only interesting option I
would have found with any of the men that she ended up with would
have been Chuvok.
That would have been quite interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah, that would have been quite interesting.
Oh, here we go.
The console's just blown.
The console blows up.
They're just lying on the ground.
Like, and they're just at the console, standing next to one
another, and then they fall over, and now they're dead, and you
kind of think, oh, you know, really?
That's the best we can do.
I don't know if you noticed, but when they actually fell, there
was no makeup on their face, but then we went back to them, they
were covered in blood.
God.
Yeah, yeah.
No, it's pretty bad.
It is really half assed.
And I, you know.
I mean, I mean, we do have to remember sometimes they were
churning these out and a lot of them.
So sometimes those details get missed.
Yeah, yeah.
But I do think that the exploding console, which is a uniquely 90s
trek thing.
Am I right?
Do the consoles explode in original Trek or in...
No, I'm not the money for that. did they?
Yeah, but I mean, this is a sort of really cheap arse way for
people to die in battle is that they're like, how does that
happen?
Like, how why does that happen?
What's happening there?
They'd have a pitch meeting in original series and they're right.
We can either give you 3 exploding consoles this week or you can
go on location and have the bunny from Alison Wonderland.
All right, we'll do the latter.
We can employ a good composer to do the music.
Or you can have...
They are awesome.
Okay, here we are.
Losing the bill to live.
I don't know.
Somewhere dark.
So in a minute, she, obviously, the torpedo comes in, doesn't it?
and strikes voyager and she has to go down the Jeffries tube and
be exposed to the ray.
Now, in the year of hell, it's 7 of 9 that does that. and that's
what blinds her.
They don't get out in time and she's blind for the rest of the
story. which is how we all know it's going to be reset because
obviously you're not going to be blind for the rest of the time.
Well, and all the other things that happen, people dying and
things like that.
But actually, do you know, like, oh, I'm going to do it again.
There's that fabulous sequence in Starship Down where Quork and
Hannick are deactivating the torpedo between them.
And it's a 10000 times better than what we see here.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, there's like literally nothing happens in that scene
does it?
She just goes down, crawls down a Jeffreys tube, tries to do the
thing.
Like, what is it even about?
I just don't, you know...
I suppose that's the one point where what they're trying to say
about the future and this plot are intersecting.
I hate you, like, I'm trying to look into something here. okay?
Well, yeah, so this is a big plot development, but it is so
boring.
And how does she feel about it?
I don't know.
You know, what is she thinking about?
As she goes down the corridor, who can say?
Like it just there's no people in this story.
That's the problem.
But you know what we come through next?
and I think it's my favourite scene in the whole of this is when
they go to the caretaker scene.
Ethan Phillips clearly been watching the rushes from that day.
So he's like, right, I'm going to pitch this and he does, he says
the line's absolutely the same way he said to me in caretaker.
And then she's obviously like, 0 my God, I'm travelling through
time, you know, and this momentous moment in their journey.
But they don't get her hair right, do they?
Like at that scene in the caretaker.
She looks...
Oh, Nathan, all good things.
Do you remember Tashi off hair?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I know.
I like Janeway going.
Sharp, Elix.
Let's listen to her, you know.
This is the sort of thing we're going to go for a lot in the
future.
Maybe she's telling the truth.
There you go.
There's some point of view shots as she goes down the thing.
It looks a bit nasty that torpedo, doesn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Blowing, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that looks reasonable.
But it's one of those clots where she has to do this in order for
this to make sense.
Like, you know.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, what's, I guess she's racing against time because
she's going to be burned to a crisp because that's what Neelix
said earlier.
Like, I don't know, she's coughing.
She's coughing a bit, she's got COVID and... kind of hairy.
That's okay.
Did you see?
Sort of coughing out smoke. a bit like a cigarette.
It's radiation, right?
We've got to give it a visual.
Oh, God.
And she remembers the number.
It's 147.
Oh, and now she's back here.
Oh, no, it's not caretaker yet.
Where are we now?
I think we're in the present day.
Yes.
Yeah.
So we can kind of enjoy this scene because it actually means
something, you know?
Like, like we're in now.
Yeah, I guess.
No, it's not now, is it?
now the other now.
Oh, I don't know.
I don't know.
It's now, as in roundabout series 3, uh... more thought than the
writer did, you know?
Well, I think that's possible.
Oh, I've forgotten, he's got his little hard light emitter or
whatever it is.
What's called?
Yeah.
Mobile emitter.
Move on, yeah.
He got that in the future's end, you know. the teacher's end
that's right.
Yeah, yeah.
He gets to rescue them all from the hillbillies.
Do you remember?
He comes running in the cellar.
Oh, they're like survivalists, aren't they?
Like they're really sort of crazy old survivalists or something?
Oh, do you know what?
There are some good Voyager episodes.
It's worth remembering that, you know.
Yeah, yeah, no, they really are.
And the last one we did was magnificent.
Like a, you know, we did the counterpoint.
I think it's going to be a while before we have one as good as
that again, though, you know?
No, that's probably about as good as it gets.
But this is, again, like, I know Star Trek is that we sit around
tables talking techno babbler and I'm normally here for it, but I
just can't care about what's going on here because it's all so
meaningless, you know.
Can you think of a way that they could make us care about this?
Well...
Is, well, anything.
I don't know, but if a story was being told rather than just a
series of stories being told and then thrown away.
Like, there's no continuity.
And so, like all that Kess, all that happens to Kess, is she
learns more about the thing that is causing this.
And it turns out that the thing that is causing this is 2 space
reasons, you know, affecting one another and it's super boring.
Oh my god.
I just saw something.
Did you know what they could have done?
If she's going backwards through time, They could have like pulled
out every sort of continuity era and she could gun along, corrected
them all?
Because do you remember, oh, now I do it again.
In Inquisition, when Sloane comes on the station and pulls Bashir
up and says, right, you're going to be arrested, you're a Dominion
spy, and he pulls out every continuity inconsistency for the last
4 years.
So why did you do this?
Why did the Dominion leave that runabout there?
That would have been quite clever.
Lower decks would have done that as well, you know.
No, but this, I don't know.
I don't know.
This is to me, right, what I think people who don't like Star Trek
think that it's like all the time.
Yeah.
I don't know, though. you know, because after this is the one
where the doctor gets his hollow family.
Do you remember?
real life?
And I think that's what my...
They're on the holiday deck.
He got like this soap opera family.
I think that's exactly what my overall think Star Trek is like.
I bet you do.
I know I'm sure you do that. super cheesy, isn't it?
He's like in a really, really crappy holiday simulation of a
family.
Is he got a rebellious teenager or something?
Son is into Klingon rock and he has his friends...
Oh, Gagore over. really awful.
Well, that just sounds like a hell of a lot more fun than this
though.
It has that wonderful scene because no, what happens is he's got
sorry, this is so boring. talk about that. where he programs them
all to be the perfect family.
What's that show called?
They're like a beaver or something.
Yeah, no, that is kind of the ideal I found in.
Belana Torres comes along and halfway through meal.
She goes, right, computer, freeze program.
I'm not I'm not sitting here with these lollipops.
This is not what a real car is like, so she reprograms it and
that's when he gets the rebellious team.
Was she reprograms it?
So the little girl dies.
I, what, bitch?
And he has to go through, he has to go through losing the
daughter.
Yeah, and that's what being in a family's really like, that's the
moral of that one.
I mean it's pretty terrible.
That sounds a lot better than this.
I have to say.
Ah, here we have young case. played by someone else.
Um, and, like, this is a super boring scene as well because, like
she can't convince him of the thing, you know, like she's got this
sort of thing of what's happening and and he just dismisses her.
I got a production question for you.
Do you think they have pulled out stock cave set number 52 and
just put a load of cabbages in there because it looks like it and
a ceiling?
Just stock cave set one.
I've said it before.
I know. only one of them.
But they're underground, aren't they?
They're trying to reinforce it.
Because she's never seen the sky.
Oh, now, look, now she's explaining it to her dad.
I mean, how many times are we gonna have this scene?
Yeah, yeah.
It'd be hilarious because she came out as a baby and tried it
again.
And she's airing the foetus, banging her, trying to get her.
I'm going back in time.
But then I don't get it because then we just, it just turns.
She's she's conceived.
And then we're suddenly in the present day and the doctor goes
well, I've saved the day.
Yeah, so I took it that she sort of slingshots back for a bit and
then comes back and like, I don't know, whoever.
Like, they just want us to see her entire life and it just turns
out that it's not very interesting.
Like, she spent years underground growing vegetables before that.
She was a embryo, you know, like, Do you think we are supposed to
be so enamoured with the premise?
Like, oh wow, this is such a great idea. cares going backwards
through time.
And that is supposed to be enough.
Well, I don't know, but like it's not telling a story backwards, is
it?
Like that's, you know, like you need to be sort of reasonably
skilled so that it ends up being a story rather than just a bunch
of things that happen.
Because that's what your life is.
There's no real story.
Do you know what I mean?
Like a bunch of things happen and then they stop happening.
And like that's what's happening.
Kenneth Biller is not without talent.
He wrote the episode Nemesis, where Chakotay's on that planet with
all those, and he literally wrote an entire language, like a
metaphor for for the bit.
And it's a really smart pace.
It's not amazing, but it's got a bit of intelligence to it.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Maybe, though, if you are churning out 26 a year and you're doing
I don't know, 6 of them. duds.
And you've come up with a good idea. and actually discovering the
writing that it doesn't work in any way and you kind of go, oh
Well, we just better film this one.
I hate to tell you something else.
Memory Alpha does detail this as one of the it's considered one of
the best episodes of Star Trek Voyager.
It's in a poll by Sini Fantastic, or whatever, the magazine is
called.
But I mean, what are people voting for?
Oh, no, this, I love this line.
I'm gonna become a security officer.
Fortunately, that's merely one possible future and it's not going
to happen and maybe something else will happen.
And Elix goes, yeah, maybe I end up as chief security officer
which is like the only joke in the entire thing.
And then that is followed up with, what is it?
I was told, maybe you'll leave Voyager and go and join a
monastery.
And they all go, and I'm like, oh, yeah.
Really?
Yeah.
So that's that's basically, you know, the conclusion we've drawn
here, just cheap jokes at the premise.
Yeah, I'm kind of in, look at that guy's swimsuit.
Holy crap.
I know.
Finally, something of visual interest for you.
This set could not be more tedious.
I'm sorry Oh, yeah, yeah.
And it's absolutely one of those outside inside sets that Star
Trek.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They're lighting this yellow enough to maybe sort of sell it as
the sun, but...
I'm going to do a U style rant.
Why don't I just go to a bloody beach?
outside.
Yeah, go to a resort.
All these scenes in a day on a beach and then just put them in the
episodes in the season.
I mean, that is the big problem with 90s Star Trek is the
production is like a soap opera where they just never leave the
set and going on location is really rare and only for special
occasions and it's bad. it's a problem. what they do.
And then it's sometimes it's spectacular when they go on
vacation.
Yeah.
Well, even, you know, futures end, where literally all they do is
go outside, you know.
They take off the pyjamas. put on sousvies and they're just
hanging out and literally down a beach.
Yeah, yeah.
It's so much better.
But when did that become a treat?
It was always a treat.
I mean, original trek goes outside, but not all the time.
And Star Trek, the Next Generation, series 2 of Star Trek, the
Next Generation has one shot that's outside that's on location.
The whole thing is just shot in the studio apart from that.
And I think, you know, it is again, this is another one where like
nothing looks interesting in that episode.
What looked interesting.
It's all the voyages.
And even in the future, it's still just the voyage effect.
It's all the same.
Like they haven't changed anything.
They haven't done anything.
There's really no effort made to show us something weird.
Do you remember when we went to a compa in Caretaker where they
had a budget of, you know, 12000000 or something like that?
And it was these vast spaces and things like that.
Like, why don't they just nick some of that?
Use it again.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's great.
Do you know what?
I think that is probably the largest golf between what I was
expecting and what I got.
And I think it's probably the one episode that we've watched where
I can actually see massive potential and almost none of it is
realised.
Yeah, I wonder whether it would have taken a very, very clever
writer to be able to do the time backwards stuff in any way that
was satisfying.
And either they are funny, you know, they they do jokes in the
present and then the punchline turns up in the past, or something
interesting happens.
But like they've imagined a future.
They've taken us years into the future and have shown us something
very boring.
Uh, then we've had a year of hell, which is pretty lacklustre and
lacklustre.
That's the thing.
Oh, the actual episodes are good, but that version of it was
really pretty boring. and all she had to do was discover the
techno babble, find out the magic number and everything stopped
happening and like we didn't learn anything.
I can remember at the time, though.
People were so excited at the possibility of this arc in the
future that that was probably enough to get this a pass, you know
they were like, oh, something that this episode is boring, but
something exciting is coming.
Yeah.
You know, Voyager, like there are lots of episodes of Voyager that
I remember with great fondness, and there are some that I think
are really, really excellent, but I think this is worse than the
normal run of Voyager.
I think this is a uniquely bad episode.
Well, there's some terrible episodes of Voyager which are
absolutely delirious to watch.
Yeah.
There's one there's one around this time, you know, called
displaced.
I don't know if you remember this, where someone appears on
Voyager out of nowhere, and then they realise someone's missing
from Voyager.
People keep...
Yeah.
And this is how they do it. like a slow invasion, you know?
They take, and then suddenly they start taking more and more
people and then all the Voyager crew are in this one location.
They have to stage a coup.
And there's a few people left on Voyager that are fighting this
entire like population and it's terrible.
Like, it's really like a shit premiere.
It makes no sense.
But it's got a bit of energy and fun and they just go through it.
It's one wonderful scene, right?
Where this terrible, terrible actress.
It's a one moment of television.
And they're storming the bridge, these people, and she kind of
goes, seal those doors.
Like, oh, it's glorious B movie trek.
Well, I would take that over.
Like, you're going to say an ambitious failure like this.
Yeah, no.
A massive waste of potential like this.
Well, I think it's a premise that maybe looks interesting, but
that is clearly nearly impossible to capitalise on.
And, you know, like that's just not good enough.
It shouldn't really have made it past the planning stage because
there's nothing there.
This would be a really tight lower decks episode. 22 minutes.
They could jump, jump, jump, jump, jump. lots of gags, lots of
smart rumours.
And I think the writers there have got the savvy to do it.
Yeah.
But unfortunately, we are currently in the hands of Jerry Taylor
Brannenbraga and Kenneth Miller.
Yeah.
Thanks, guys.
All right, it's time for us to choose our next Star Trek episode
and it's my turn.
And I am simply turning checkboxes on and off at random.
So this is the collection of series that have nothing in common
and no underlying principle that I have decided to choose from
among now.
Can I impose something else?
I know it's your turn.
But can I impose something on you after watching that incredibly
dreary episode of Star Trek?
I want to watch a good Voyager episode.
No, no, no, no.
I just think like whatever comes up, yeah?
Can we just make it a fun one after that piece?
an antidote, a moment of relief.
Okay, all right.
So these are the series that I'm choosing from, right?
The original?
Oh, good chance.
Next generation.
Deep Space 9.
Enterprise.
Okay.
Okay, like imagine it's, I don't know, the year 2000.
We've just done a Voyager episode and that's basically all we have
available.
So I'm going to go with that.
God knows what it will turn up.
But here I am pressing the button.
All right.
Oh, no, I don't like that. on your face.
Yeah.
This is season one, episode 21 of Star Trek, the Next Generation
the Arsenal of Freedom, or as we wittily called it at the time, the
Arsehole of Freedom.
It's the one, is it John Lovett, and some flying hairdryers, and
I'm already pressing the button again.
Do you know what?
I watched that recently. the Arsenal.
I watched series one of, I was in a hate phase of television.
So I watched the whole 1st season of Next Generation.
I remember.
And that actually stood out as one of the highlights.
That's how bad that year is.
Yeah.
So I have pressed the button while you were talking.
And I now have Star Trek the Next Generation series 5, episode 23
Iborg.
Not very fun, but very fun. pretty good.
What happens when we watch it and discover that it's super
boring?
I actually know that, but even before rewatching that, I think
that one is a little bit overrated, you know?
Yeah.
Look, I think it's good, and I think Hugh probably sells it, and
we have done, you know, Hugh...
Yeah, yeah.
I just feel like you should have a current episode.
Record number of persons.
More fun one.
Alright.
Okay.
Oh, God.
Randomiser hates me.
So this is Deep Space 9 season one.
Oh, God.
Yeah, before they have any idea of what they're doing.
Season one, episode 7, celess.
Oh, it's so terrible. terrible.
It's like the it's like the episode where DS9 sold out in his 1st
year.
Yeah, yeah.
It's just being sub-DS9 tribe.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, it's just like, you know, Q has to guest on every series and
he's super offensive when he 1st turns up on Voyager and he's kind
of offensive when he turns up here.
I think his 1st turn on Voyager is one of the best queue episodes
Death Wish.
Is that his 1st one?
You're thinking of the cue and the gray, aren't you, in series
three?
Oh, I'm just thinking of him turning up and going on about how the
captain's a lady and stuff and that just shit. the one where the Q
wants to commit suicide.
It's really, really good.
He's a good actor too, that guy.
I think he's really good.
But...
Yeah. cogenitor.
Well, you cover this episode on untitled Star Trek Project, episode
13.
Okay, you don't have to do that.
Yeah.
Does tell you.
Something fun amongst these shows?
Come on.
Yeah, no, God.
Why do we have this podcast?
Okay, I don't know what this one is.
That's it.
You'll know what this is, but I don't.
This is season two, episode 13 of Star Trek Deep Space 9
Armageddon game.
Oh, it's the one with Bashir O'Brien, where they're on the planet
with the harvesters.
They're trying to destroy this terrible weapon and then they have
to go on the run because they want to kill them as well.
Anyone who had knowledge of it.
And it's basically a bonding episode between the 2 of them, press
it again.
Okay.
One more time.
This is it.
This is the one.
Your random Star Trek Deep Space 9 episode is season one, episode
11, the Nagus.
Oh, my God, that's really fun.
That's really fun in it.
That's all right, Mark.
I like you.
The Wallace Sean is so great.
It's so awesome that he was on Star Trek. can't believe it.
What do you reckon?
I think we do it.
And the thing about that one is, that's before they kind of hit a
tone with the Ferengi episodes.
So that is out and out of comedy. a little bit dark in place of
that one.
And it's the one where it's the one where Rom tries to kill Quark
at the end.
Awesome. do you think?
I think we should do it.
All right, you're on.
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project
com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and
YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 10th of August 2022 and released
on the 19th of August.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Deep Space 9, the Magus.
Thanks, guys.
Oh, miserable pain.
That has to be the ending, though.
Thanks guys.
I think we ended on a joke.
That is a joke.
Yeah.
It's better than that episode.
The crap episode.
I wasn't a struggle to talk about.
Jesus Christ.
I, you know, I do fine.
I do often compare terrible episodes to other things.
I always want to highlight where it works elsewhere.
Why isn't it working here, you know?
Yeah.
But, you know, yeah, there's nothing.
I haven't even thought about this.
Yeah.
Where are we going?
All right, so it's time to, no, of course I'm not going to.
Every one day.
Also, ah, man, there's something else I wanted to say as well.
It basically focusses on all the Dud characters on Voyager, doesn't
it?
It's not giving any focus on the doctor, really, not, you know, in
any great way, Janeway, Torres.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I did say that it was a great relief when she turned up.
That is exactly.
She don't do nothing.
It really was.
No, she just smiled and I just thought, oh, that's right.
Roxanne's here and she's really beautiful and charismatic, you
know, like, I don't know.
I am going to just picking things at random here.
Uh, okay.
All right, it's time for us to choose our next Star Trek episode.