Hey, Joe. Hi.
Oh, Nathan, I've got a question for you.
Why is Kate Mulgrew such a legend?
I think that she is actually one of the best captains ever.
I mean, you know, they're Saru and Pike and Michael and stuff.
But she is such, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
She is such an incredibly good actor and she's never not worked.
She's constantly doing things and she was kind of slumming it a
bit.
I think probably in Star Trek.
And she is just so clever in the way that she, she's able to
convey exactly what the character is thinking in a kind of subtle
way.
And she's just so fabulously strong.
And I think, I was actually thinking this the other day because
you know, both Doctor Who and Star Wars got in trouble for having
female leads in the last, you know, a few decades.
And Star Trek did it first.
And I think maybe there was a backlash, but it was before, you
know, Nazism came back and became so popular.
And so I don't remember the big negative reaction to it.
But, you know, it was a thing, how are we going to do a female
captain, and she just absolutely nails her.
I think the only backlash there was was from the Paramount suit.
So I don't think it was the fans, the talking about that.
I think when Voyage came out, people embraced Janeway straight
away.
By all accounts, in that 1st season, there were Paramount Suits on
the edge of the set watching her every move for the 1st year.
And you know, absolutely obsessed with how she looked, that she
didn't look too feminine.
You know, what I love about K-K-Well group is how committed she
is.
You are right.
I don't think slumming it is the right way, but I think this is
this might not be like, you know, the peak of her career doing
Star Trek.
She's done some fantastic theatre.
And, you know, she's she's had other shows on her own as well.
But man, she puts some real thought into how to play this
character.
And I question whether Janeway is written with any kind of
consistency.
It's something that run more bangs on about when he came in season
6 that these characters were being written with like no motivation
at all.
Let's just do this with them this week.
And I do think the character suffers for that.
But I think whatever she's asked to do, she commits absolutely
every time.
I think she really ties it together as well.
I mean, we have Star Trek shows and shows said in the Star Trek.
This is a Star Trek show. show, yeah.
Yeah.
And it does have a bit more of a premise than most of them, but
it's still fairly light on as far as premise is concerned.
And those shows, the characters are their jobs and how good they
are at their jobs.
So what always ties it together on shows like that is the actor's
performance.
And Janeway is always Janeway, even if she's sort of acting oddly
or doing something that seems implausible, she does it in just a
specific Janeway way.
And here, gosh, the show that we're doing today is such a showcase
for just how superb she is and everything. amazingly good in this
episode.
She says she's quoted as saying for once, like this was the point
where they said they're already for her to have like a real
romantic liaison or some holiday character or whatever.
Um, even though that that is kind of couched in duplicity.
Uh, yeah.
And she's quoted as saying, um, it was so refreshing to finally
see the woman underneath the scientists because they've kind of
lent on, and I, and I believe that they live on the scientist side
of it and showed them smarts, you know.
Yeah.
But man, man, she plays these romantic seeds.
She's a sly old woman.
I'm telling you this.
She's brilliant.
It's funny, you know, because I guess traditionally the romantic
heroine is kind of 2nd fiddle to the romantic hero in a romance
you know, the man is more important than the woman because
patriarchy and all sorts of things like that.
So the man gets top billing.
The woman is a kind of secondary character and the story is how
does the man win over the woman, you know, and there are
exceptions to that.
But putting your lead and putting your captain in that position
where she has a relationship with a man, given the way that, you
know, given the unequal power dynamics of how these relationships
get presented, that puts her in a subordinate role, and you can
see, you know, Doctor Who has a female lead and has absolutely
shied away from anything like that.
They haven't wanted to go in that direction at all.
But getting Janeway in this position.
Yeah, she's in no way.
She's not in us of all the role here.
She.
Not in those scenes, isn't she?
Like, she's, she's, well, she's playing.
She's also pursuing it.
Yeah, and they actually don't give her a proper romance, but we
don't know that until the end.
This this episode, so this is counterpoint.
Yeah, we better mention that at some point.
Well, it's on the, it's visible on everyone's podcast player, so
we'll be fine.
This episode, I think watching it for the 1st time, is a very
different experience from watching it again.
And this is one that I've gone back to because I think it's
outstandingly good.
So it's one of the episodes that I have rewatched from time to
time.
But it had been a while since I'd watched it and I couldn't quite
remember how the twist went.
But when she was kissing Kashik, I knew that she was playing him
but it would be interesting to know what it's like again to not
know that, to actually think that perhaps there's a real romance
happening here.
Oh, so you know, well, the 1st time I watched this, I was
convinced by the chemistry, but I wasn't convinced by the
relationship and I was waiting to see one how he would...
And then how she would trump it.
I wasn't sure how it was all going to happen.
I'm watching that unfold. so satisfying.
And I've got to say, to be able to watch an episode of Voyager
this good after some of the draws we've watched so far was so
satisfied.
This takes place in season 5 of Voyager, which I think is his
strongest year.
It's the year where they really, the kind of Brandon Braga, Kenneth
Biller really got their act together and started putting out some
really good shows.
And this is like a 4 episode rum. 30 days counterpoint latent
image and bride of chaotica.
And I think they're all outstanding in very, very different ways.
For me, this is like the high point of Voyager.
This might be my favourite of the four, possibly later image
because that's got an even better Robert Picardo performance.
But basically, this rocks, because of my root.
And if you would indulge me, I have a quote from Kmart group here
where she talks about it because this is her personal favourite
episode that she recorded and she is protesting.
All of those layers and all of those nuances and subtleties were
terrific to play.
I loved counterpoint because I was so gratified creatively.
This was espionage at its best.
It was a symphony.
Every scene with Mark Herrellic, the whole marriage between the
writing, the characters and the actors was almost perfect.
I ran to work every morning.
So sorry when it ended.
Every part was wonderful.
Deeply satisfying work and you know that is everything.
Yeah, and it probably doesn't happen that much on stuff.
I've got to say, do you know what she... episodes like this very
often, did she?
I think she had a hand. 1159 is another good showcase for her.
Oh, I suppose you could say fair, how you, but it is, if you're so
kind.
Given, given sort of what they had in K-bong group.
It's quite astonishing that she didn't get more episodes like
this.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think this is really great.
And let's talk about Mark Harrelick, who is absolutely superb.
So good.
Now, look, in this podcast, right?
We have seen some pretty shoddy guests, you know, those, that'll
do performances, you know, the boma, people like that.
Man, this guy is he's really committed to this, isn't he?
Yeah, he's great.
And I looked at his IMDb page yesterday.
I remember seeing him.
I think he's in Jurassic Park 3.
I think he plays like a tennis coach in a run of Seinfeld
episodes.
And that's where I'd seen him.
I remember having seen him and I think probably I'd seen him here
first, but I was so struck by him.
I started noticing him in other things, but he has never not
worked and I think he's in his 70s now and he's still going.
It is really, really great.
He is like, I think he's appealing and kind of creepily slimy and
stuff, but he does, I think, sell the defection thing.
Oh, I think so too.
I think he really sounds.
I think he's very charming in those scenes where they're working
things out together. you know, and they're kind of leaning in and
amazing.
It's really good You think they got the actor 1st and then wrote
the episode 4 here.
I don't know, but it is one of these Star Trek episodes that just
depends completely on a guest performance and we've talked about
progress and duet before.
So it was a thing that Deep Space 9 actually did.
And then here, I think, you know, it absolutely stands or falls on
the relationship between these 2 actors and they just nail it.
It's really great.
Well, should we give it a go?
I think we probably should.
All right.
I should count us in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
I'll just say straight away.
I remember when I 1st watched this.
Okay, and this opening sequence where these Nazi storm troopers, uh
you know, take Voyager to the classical music, I was like, this is
something different.
This is the, you know, this does not feel like your average
Voyager episode.
You know, I think what's great.
What really, really works is that it starts in the middle, and so
we don't have to put up with all of the scenes that we've seen
100s of times before, of how they met and what ended up
happening.
You know what it would have been?
Voyager on the back shot.
It would have been like those scenes with the Boma, where they
were saying, oh, you go around this up and, you know, boring
things like that.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the other one that we've done is the killing game, which
does pretty much the same thing that starts with Voyager occupied
by the Hirogen.
This thing about materialising on deck one.
It's like a very different game than the killing game, though
doesn't it?
very different.
Yeah, but putting Voyager on the back foot, I think, is really
good.
Even that opening shot, which had one divorce spaceship
approaching Voyager from the side and then one coming in over the
camera looking absolutely massive.
Look at her chair, sitting back in her chair.
Oh, welcome to your ready room, Captain.
It's it's so great because it's such a massive fuck you and it's
so much so.
But he's, he can be like incredibly genial.
Like he can afford to be kind of super charming because he's so in
charge.
Can I just say that, um, his subordinate, Prax, has got my best
name ever, and he goes so much mileage out of that name.
Brax.
What was so great was when pranks appeared on the screen and he's
lit from below and he's really quite kind of imposing and then
seeing him just being casually bossed around by Kashik is so
great.
So Kashik has the same name as the Planet of the Wookies in Star
Wars, but it doesn't have 3 Y's in a row.
It's just it's just the one Y.
I mean, there's lots of K's in it, so it's a space mate.
It is a space name.
Prax is an absolute corker of a space name, I think.
Talk about dropping you straight into the story and getting you
engaged immediately, you know?
Voyager doesn't do this.
A lot of voyagers sort of aid to be classic, isn't it?
Yeah, because it's a Star Wars Star Wars, what are we doing?
It's a Star Trek show.
Because it's a Star Trek show.
It's here's the space problem and then we solve it.
But having them kind of start off having failed to solve the space
problem. essentially, they can't do anything about these
inspections and putting them on the back foot is great.
Did we ever find out why what their problem is with telepaths?
Like.
Yeah, yeah, we actually get a speech from Kashik about it.
And the problem is that they're racist centophobes.
No, the problem is that...
Well, how he justifies it, the rhetoric he uses to justify it
which is kind of true, is that telepaths don't have to trust you
because they can just read your mind and the basis of all
relationships and all sorts of things is trust and they short
circuit that.
And you know, that sounds like a thing.
There is a wonderful scene with Neelix.
Oh, look at that shot.
Look at that shot.
They're like, um, uh, stingy or something out there.
Yeah, yeah.
But they're massive.
It's so rare to get a good special effect.
I know, they turn the lights down in the corridors. right.
Nice.
I love all of this as well.
Just going around the ship and and scanning everything.
I don't know, it just it feels incongruous, doesn't it?
It's, Yeah.
Yeah, well, it's the sort of thing that you never see.
And everyone is kind of slightly surly with them.
I think you know, there's a kind of repressed rage in the way
everyone deals with them.
And we've seen, look at that look on Harry's face.
Look, we've seen Harry Harris and Shakota.
We've seen them get now.
They've had their contractual appearance.
Yeah, that's kind of nice.
The one that I misleased is Tom Paris, I think, in this episode.
Oh, so there, with the cell cultures, just shoving it on the
floor.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's great to see someone do that to the doctor too.
That's pretty awesome.
Bilana's good here too.
Like, B'lana, the way that B'lana deals with Prags is pretty
hilarious.
So, absolutely.
I was going to try and unpick this thing as we go.
At this point, does Kashik know?
That they're harbouring the telepaths.
So they go through this whole rigma of doing the inspection and
then later on it comes, is it because he already knows or did they
find out here?
Yeah, I don't know.
And it's not made clear.
I don't think it's made clear.
The next time we see him.
Yeah, the next time we see him, he knows everything.
And so whether he finds out here or not...
See how tight that is.
Yeah.
And she's great in this as well.
And this is a little moment that indicates that she's not
telepathic, so she doesn't count because it's a technological
thing that only works with other Borg or something.
I think that maybe it's possible they find out now because there
are some clues, aren't they?
They discover that, uh, power's going to the teleport or whatever
the transporter and staff.
Do you see Janeway's body language?
She's not giving him an inch in that room, is she?
No.
No, she's owning the room.
He's in the foreground, but she's just sat back and doing the
Janeway maneuver.
And even as he was marching back, she was still in the background
of that shot with her hands out, incredibly relaxed on the sofa.
Oh, I love the use of music in this.
I think it's so, so lovely.
I think there are one or 2 moments of decent music, like decent
incidental music here as well.
Good, the music in 90s.
Can you say that again?
I know.
Well, maybe one.
But the music in 90s trek is pretty terrible.
And with the odd exception.
And so the use of like Marla and Tchaikovsky here.
And, you know, we had duet as the title of a Deep Space 9
episode.
Yes.
And that's not anything about the content.
It is entirely about the relationship between the 2 characters.
It's essentially saying this is a two-hander, and this episode is
about their relationship.
It's got nothing to do with the actual plot.
Here they do talk about counterpoints and they hang a hat on it.
But I think what's happening is the way their 2 personal plots
track one another.
And if you were to do a kind of graph to graph who's in charge or
who's on top or who's defeating who, you get the sense that Kashik
is playing Janeway and she's falling for it, only for that reverse
to happen.
And then suddenly, and there's also, like a counterpoint is, you
know, a sort of melody underneath a melody that kind of tracks one
another, and the spiral, uh, the spiral thing that we see out the
window is a little bit of a visual representation of that as well
where you've got 2 kind of waveform superimposed upon one
another.
I think it's daring to suggest that there's a bit of thought
that's gone into a 90s train episode. going in here.
Yeah, yeah.
I think it's, I think, because...
Yeah, by calling a counterpoint, they're saying the important
thing to pay attention to here is how these 2 characters stories
interact with one another and how they differ and complement one
another.
And that's what the title duet is doing.
But here we also get to hang a lantern on it because we get this
music from Marla and Tchaikovsky as well.
Do you know what I thought was the ultimate payoff in this?
Was after all the deceptions were, you know, out in the open?
And she says, you know, my offer is genuine.
He says, I was tempted.
Yeah.
So there was something definitely there, you know?
Oh, I don't know whether we can believe that.
Well...
I believe her.
No, that's true.
I think that's true.
She looks like she's about to spit in his eye.
Yeah.
Can we talk about the makeup?
That, it, okay, it is a bit of latex, but it's fairly. allows him
to give a performance still.
Yeah, I think, you know, like it doesn't interfere with the face
at all, and I think it is, it does make him a bit ominous, though
sort of emphasising the eyebrows and things.
I think it looks pretty good.
This is peak Janeway hair for me.
I just love that hair.
She's got an example.
It's very kind of standard American hair.
Look, pattern enhances.
You were asking me about pattern enhances before when they
appeared in Star Trek the Next Generation in PowerPlay.
They use the pattern enhances, and it turns out here they are.
There's a bit of, you know what?
Have you know those?
The cameras.
There's a bit of harm, how camera work going on in this, you know
to give it a bit of urgency.
Yeah, who is this?
Is this cliff bowl?
I can't remember who directs this, just to say.
I mean, we shouldn't have mocked bowl too much.
He did best of both wells part one.
It's Les Landau.
You're joking.
My God.
No, it's him.
He's hacked out a few of these that we've watched already, and we
weren't complimentary there, I'm telling you.
Maybe he's one of those directors, depending on the quality of the
script and how much effort he puts into it.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I think this is so great.
And so, and that too, because this is a reversal as well.
This is a development.
We didn't know at this point, or until this point, that they were
harbouring fugitives, and I think, well, we know some, he said
that, uh, she said that Bora could chew up with dead, and that was
not going to happen off screen.
Oh, yeah.
So we know there's some kind of...
Actually, doesn't that happen the next time he comes out?
No, no, no, they just haven't.
That happened just now.
Okay.
Yeah.
So, uh, Vorrick, he was in learning curve or something like that?
Blood fever.
He the one.
Oh, the blood fever he gets.
My mouth with Blood of Torres, and then she takes on the horniness
and then she has it off of Tom Harris.
It had the most terrible consequences.
But you're right though.
That's the 1st that's the 1st point where, you know, it's exposed
that, you know, the telepaths, the basically a whole story has
happened before this that we're not privy to.
Yeah.
And and, you know, note, it isn't just contractual obligation that
makes us go from one character to another, seeing how they react
to the inspection.
Because I don't think we see Neelix being inspected.
Are we supposed to notice that Tuvok isn't there?
at that point.
We see all of the other major characters, but not too VOC.
Possibly.
Yeah, but he's so neglected, usually.
Look, maybe we just don't know.
Do you know, there's a lovely team with Neelix in a bit, you know
when he's with the telemathic team.
I think he works.
Brilliant with kids, doesn't he?
That's that's like when he's carrot safe best.
So this lovely set here is not stellar cartography, what is it?
Can you remember?
Astrometrics.
That's right.
I think we did.
Stellar cartography set.
Oh, yeah.
No, he's got them all around him.
Like he's run a campfire, you know?
Like, it's really lovely.
And a couple of pastries on the floor.
And those characters flautter and Trebus have been in it.
Do they agonise turn up in the holodeck?
Naomi Wildman once upon a time.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, it's really terrible.
I really like this, because we've, we have cashie saying why, why
telepaths are a problem because they short circuit trust.
And then we see a scene where this little kid is spoiling the
story that Neelix is trying to tell.
And all that Neelix Dansey is say, it's actually not polite to do
that.
And the kid goes, oh, all right.
And it kind of shows you how bullshit that explanation of cash X
is, that, you know, there's no problem with telepath. tapped into
something here with negative X because then he, well, he's already
got it, but it continues, the relationship with Naomi Wild.
He gets the haunting of deck.
And then he gets, yeah, the ball children come in and he has
scenes with them.
And it's just, he sings.
He absolutely sings when he's that parental figure.
I love that.
Look at that.
Where, where he says to, where Neelix says to Janeway, for you, the
kitchen's always open and she smiles at him and gives him a little
playful punch on the shoulder.
She's absolutely just, you know, she's so good, you know.
So excited by this.
There's a whole episode where she was hunting down coffee. she
makes that interesting.
There's coffee in that nebula, Nathan. like, yeah, that's like
episode two, isn't it?
It's like really early.
I suppose as well, when it comes to the telepaths, the, they call
the Imperium, the, the, yeah, the Devore Imperium.
The Devore Imperium.
They're obviously like a military force and the telepaths have an
advantage over it, don't they?
They can...
Yeah.
Oh, here he is.
Here he is.
He looks a lot more relaxed.
Now, his hair's a bit just sheve all. in casual clothes.
He's in terrible Star Trek casual clothes.
Although I think once he takes the jacket off.
Oh, my God.
I don't want to wake up.
Give him a snob.
No, I was I spent a lot of time looking at his very, very hairy
arms.
Okay, you did.
He's a very hairy man.
And you know what?
He's getting a bit of shit.
He's great about this because we've done this.
We've done the defector about 4 times already.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Including an episode called The Defector.
The defector. that's right I think too, at this point are we
inclined to believe him.
There's a twist and it turns out that the arrogant evil inspector
from the cold open is actually a good guy and he wants to help
them.
That's a possible story, isn't it?
It's not absolutely certain at this point he's lying.
Okay, the way this episode is ploted.
And the way it's constructed.
I don't know.
I was just always expecting subterfuge.
And the way they sort of play around each other all the time and I
was like, okay, so this is a game where we're playing a game and
eventually there's going to be a twist that hits, you know.
Yeah, so I think that the great thing is that there's a kind of
obvious reading of what's going on that keeps getting subverted
and this is one of them, this scene here.
I, you know, I can't remember my 1st viewing of this, but I'd be
inclined to believe him.
Maybe it would have been more convincing a bit of imprax.
And I don't mean, like, he he'd wait, yeah, if it was the...
Well, no, no, but like the bullied subordinate defecting.
Maybe that would have been more convincing then.
Because he was so, you know, in his element, wasn't he?
You know, ready room in charge.
You know, with the inspection.
And then to go from that to this, I was just like, really?
His eyes is so good.
Yeah.
You know what?
They showcase this set quite a bit, you know, season five.
And lots of poor, they're pulled a bit of money, that way.
Well, we had stellar cartography, remember, in generations, which
was that spectacular set where you had all of the walls were a
giant, you know, spherical screen.
It was really great.
What a movie.
Come on.
Yeah, I know, here they've just got a bit of a big telly and it's
still, you know, it's still smaller than Pike's incredible
widescreen.
Seeing on the enterprise.
I do think it's a shame though.
I wish.
Like, you've always just shied away, didn't it, from...
Giving Jane Way a long-term romance.
I would like to have seen that play out, you know.
No, maybe not this one.
No, yeah, I don't know.
I do like...
Were we not ready for a woman to be in charge and to be, you know
sexy and romantic?
Yeah, well, they manage it on Discovery, don't they?
And in fact, they make that a thing, and they give books something
to do.
And I guess that would be the difficulty is who do we do it with
and what do they do on the show?
Whereas book gets a very definite plot of his own in series 4 of
Discovery.
Maybe we should be thankful, though, because so many of those 90s
romance.
Their trek romances are so agonising.
I mean, there's the odd one that steps through, like, rejoined
which works by well, that, oh, generally speaking.
And it's full of the usual Voyager cringe dialogue, isn't it?
You know, the Voyager banter.
Well, in fact, that's the one thing that I'm so happy to not have
to go through this episode, is there is no Voyager banter, because
we're already on the back foot, and because we see them come in
you know, in the middle of a thing where they're being inspected.
We don't get any bullshit about the Delaney sisters or anything
like that.
But they haven't played like a romance, right?
2 of them's trying to solve the space problem, which is what we
normally do.
But with the 2 actors playing the dialogue in an incredibly
flirtatious way, and that's what works.
Yeah, I mean, it's in the script, though, because it does
culminate in the 2 of them kissing in the shuttle bay, and I think
that scene is incredibly well played.
So what they are doing is the kind of thing where they've got a
prickly antagonistic relationship, and then they discover that by
working together, there's some real chemistry, and it sort of
leads up to a kiss.
It's so good.
It's such a great romance and I'm so glad it's not real as well
just terrific.
They're both playing. where he says, oh, I think you like me.
She's like, I've decided whether I like you at all.
Like, she didn't look so away from me.
Oh, my God.
The thing very early on.
It's kind of like when Kashik is explaining to her why telepaths
are banned.
He says, do you trust me?
And she says not for a second.
And I think that's so great because he's trying to be genial.
He's trying to be charming and, you know, the way that he shows
that he's in charge isn't by yelling at everyone.
It's by just being as charming as hell and not giving a shit about
anyone.
You know the bit when they kiss right before he goes off.
That's to the point where I wish I was a telepath.
And I could hear what were they thinking?
Because I think they're both thinking at the same time.
Aha.
Got you.
You know?
Well, I think what's great too, is that we go on about telepaths
and they're an important thing, and we even have that speech from
Kashik about trusting one another in a story where we don't know
what the writers are doing and we can't work out how to read
particular scenes, and neither of these 2 characters knows what
the other is doing, and both of them, it turns out, are deceiving
one another.
Do you know what's astonishing doing things in the background?
We're not listening to the dialogue.
All I'm really seeing is their body language and she's like
stroking the chair and coming towards him like our bloody cougar
I'm telling you.
Yeah.
I'm leaning in right now.
Voyager is my shit.
This is so good.
And do you know what's fat?
Okay.
We're not there.
You know the bit where, where...
But the bit where he finally, you know, goes, you know, this is
this was my plan all along.
She's so half hard in her reaction.
Well, I was waiting for you to drop you, you know.
Oh, you've got me.
Oh, she's brilliant.
Oh, now, I think that this alien is actually pretty fucking
great.
I knew you were.
And you know what?
The makeup is weirdish.
Fuck, isn't it?
But it's the performance.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Doesn't he have a weird tip?
The performance well.
Yeah, yeah, we'll get there.
And it's... so I...
He's so great, but because he looks like a frog or like an
amphibian of some kind.
They've even done something to his hands to give him like finger
pads.
Like his hands have been made up in such a way that his, the
fingers end in sort of frog-like pads.
He's like a frog and he has this thing that expands around his
nose, the way that some frogs blow up their neck in order to make
a louder sound.
And I wonder, I wonder whether the actor discovered he could do
that with the latex just inadvertently.
And Les said, do that.
Do that because it's really funny.
So it's a proper comedy performance.
The double the double pupils.
He's got as well.
Look at his eye.
Yeah.
They give him double D. really nice contact.
I mean, the poor actor, he is slavering in latex, don't he?
Yeah, look, look at his fingers.
Look at his the fingerpans.
You can see it there.
They've put them on to make him look more like a frog.
I think this has a sort of coherent look to it.
Every time he moves his head.
Extra nostrils.
That backfit wobbles.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think he's really good.
Do you know what?
Literally, it's doing this thing with you.
I was pissing myself laughing because I knew you'd have so much to
say.
He's so good though.
He's not on the bow mask scale at all.
I absolutely buy this guy.
He's like -100 on the boat.
Yeah, yeah.
There's some actual thought here.
And he's a character, and of course, the important role that he
plays is that now Janeway and Kashik are playing him and they're
both deceiving him.
Yeah, they're teaming up to deceive him in the same way that
they're deceiving one another at the same time.
They work together really well.
There is.
He blew up his nose.
Even when they're, um, even when they're obviously working against
they work together brilliantly.
Did you say the way she was leaning again, Gary?
He told me not to contact you, but I did it anyway.
She so great.
But in an episode that is all about a central relationship that is
based entirely on playing one another, having the 2 of them team
up to play someone else.
Like, again, the fact is that there's a proper coherence to the
script.
It's properly thought out.
It's about a thing.
She's done this thing, which Kotay quite a few times.
There's quite a few moments through Voyager, where they're like
you know, putting off stomach.
And it just don't work anywhere near as good as this.
Yeah, well, Mark's giving a shit would be my guess.
That would be the difference in this scene.
Where?
Robert Belton.
Yeah, that's how...
I'll just write it out for the next 5 years.
Fuck it.
That's right.
Regular paycheque.
But do you know, right?
You can match it.
You know when... look at the look.
They just looked at one another after giving him the thing and
then this.
Oh, this is one of the best teams of the episode, this.
So they're pulling an all nicer, so they're in the mess hall, and
he, there are his arms, his incredibly hairy arms, and there's a
glimpse of a cephalic vein going down that bicep there.
So it's I thought it was worth mentioning.
He's...
What, no, but he's at his sexiest.
And he's taken the jacket off.
Say, counterpoint.
There we go.
But here we here we explaining the central conceit, and it's the
parallel, parallel melodies playing against one another, and
they're talking about space things, but this scene is entirely
about their relationship and not the way they conceive their
relationship, but the way that it works in plot terms.
This is the writer telling us what they're doing.
And I just think it's so good.
It's so brilliant.
You know, you know, when she's growing, it's like, look at those
pants.
Look at them in those trousers. every single day.
I can see this in her performance.
Like, she is eating off the script.
Yeah.
And look at Mark Harrelick's travel.
Anxiety doesn't become a new inspector.
She's so great.
There it looks a little.
I haven't decided whether I like you at all.
You like me better in the uniform.
And and she's doing to him what he did to her in that 1st scene.
You know, she's just lounging around being genial and stuff while
he's being stressed.
And this is what I recall.
The Colian colar.
Infinite spirals.
Yeah, I know, that's sort of crap.
But notice that they are 2 strands that cross one another, a sort
of pinker one and a bluer one.
And so the spiral thing, the 2 things spiralling around one
another is another representation of the camera.
I do think there is a rather more obvious reason, a special effect
though, and that is to give them a very romantic backdrop.
Yeah, yeah.
And like, does Voyager do stuff out the window all that much?
I know that, uh, something that we...
Yeah, well, there's one fabulous episode where they land at this
they go to this spaceship and you can see all the different
elements of the station outside the windows, depending on where
you are on the ship.
Because this ship can, it depends on how early in the season is, if
they got on the budget.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is a little bit low effort.
He's so convincing to change.
Look at him.
Yeah, he's looking so handsome.
I guess, I guess.
The, they don't ruin the look of his face, do they?
The latex things.
He still manages to look handsome.
If he looked weird, that would have been a problem.
Oh, I think he looks very sexy.
Yeah, I do too.
Oh, maybe we need to change something quick.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, and Devore, I think, is a really great name, too, for aliens
it's kind of like, how have they not used the name Devore before
it's such a good name?
Do you know what he's doing here?
He's given one of those horrendous Star Trek nighties trek
backstories where he's like, oh, there was a little girl trapped
in the thing and I can never forget her face.
It's the sort of thing we get every week on Star Trek, but it's
all part of the ploy here.
I still think that the best one of those is that one in Picard
where Rios is telling the story and then his doctor girlfriend
just sort of resets his broken arm or something in the middle of
it and says.
Yeah.
Good story.
But okay, now there is something I want to address.
Now look at how they're sitting.
There is something I would like to address with you, because one
of your criticisms of 90s trek is that it does rather confine
itself to lots of speaking parts in a few sets.
And I think counterpoint uses that to its advantage.
And I don't think 90 straight always does, but I think it can.
No.
And I think if you've got like a strong idea for a story, if
you've got a couple of good characters, if you've got some really
good actors, then this can be fantastic TV without like, you know
the cinematic production value of latter-day trick.
Yeah, I mean, this is directed with a little bit of thought and
effort.
But it's still...
The low lighting helps.
It is still all the standing sets.
There are one or 2 nice visuals, but they're not that great.
Like they're nothing to write home about.
I guess to the other thing that Trek can do, I think, like, I
still believe that Trek needs to look weird, and the big failure
of 90s Trek is that it mostly looks boring.
And that's, you know, I don't think that's a superficial
complaint.
I think that's a proper complaint, that Star Trek is said in this
world.
Why is it said in this world, if you're not going to show us
things that we've never seen before?
I think there were reasons.
There are reasons why they did what they did.
I think if they had more money, I think they were making less
episodes. blah, blah, blah.
You could go on and on.
Doctor Who looks...
Like Doctor Who is, like, it looks, well, I mean, 90s Doctor Who
that one episode is fairly boring as well.
Maybe it's because they...
Actually, I think that's a nice shot.
That shot of the array thing that's sending out the pulses is
pretty great.
They confine themselves to like a workplace drama, didn't they?
So what we have is the sets and the actors and that's kind of what
we play with.
But what it can do is it can create made up political situations
and interrogate them.
And so this is sort of doing that.
So you create the Devore Imperium.
You create a group of people who they routinely persecute and
we're trying to get refugees from that imperium to a particular
safe place.
Now, that is the sort of thing that you can do in a show set on
earth, but it's sort of slightly messy because like you have to
make up a country or something like that or you, you know, like it
just becomes a messy or whatever.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And so here they can do that.
And Voyager does it a reasonable amount.
Like Voyager does do the let's create a made up space society and
use it to illustrate something in our own society.
And perhaps the best one of those is living witness.
I mean, that was one of the massive streets, PS9, wasn't it?
And that it had those massive empires, which were making parallels
with things that actually happened in history, and told that on a
massive canvas.
Exactly right.
And, but what, but because Voyager is going from place to place, it
can create a society to illustrate a and then throw it away and
never see it again.
And that's a kind of Star Trek thing to do.
I think that's...
In 45 minutes, it is hard to do if, you know, and there are
examples of what you're doing that extremely well.
And that's death writing to introduce a society, interrogate it
and tell a satisfying story in 45 minutes.
That scene started on 7's breast and then pulled back.
I think from season 4 onwards, most, there is at least one scene
the start song.
Like to start.
So breasts come into shot and then we pull back to reveal seven.
No one has to do it.
The divorce ships are coming back now, so he's got to he's got to
be off.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, do you see the way there?
She just got sort of whisked Jose away.
Get off a bit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So in charge, didn't she?
She got nothing to prove to anybody.
Captain, we have to talk.
I mean, kiss coming here.
Ah, yeah, so this is the thing.
So, oh, yes.
It does, oh, yeah.
I'm going back to join the warships.
So, like, as I say, at this point, my brain's going, oh, God
what's happening?
Okay.
Yeah.
Is she having to rethink her strategy now?
No, I don't think so.
You think she's got this from the off?
She's, she's, she's got this from the off.
Well, you know, nothing is really happening behind the scenes
because this is just TV.
The only thing that happens is what we get to see.
You pull that out to me a lot, you know.
So, but what I think, though, is he's got a definite plan.
This is all planned out from his end, isn't it?
That he then encounters the warships, uh, you know, he knows they
can't get past the ping, the machine that goes ping, and uh, the
warships are going to get them, so he'll have to go back and then
he'll come back with the warships and take over the ship.
So if he's got it all planned out, she has to have it all planned
out as well.
Yeah, but she couldn't possibly know he was going to affect.
She is so good.
No, no, once it affects, I think.
Once it affects, she decides how to play it.
Yeah.
Because it doesn't work because it's a counterpoint.
They each have to be playing one another equally.
She can't be falling for him.
It's got to be made up.
And I think...
There should have been a briefing where she's there telling, you
know, all of our crew.
No, I'll have a... no, no, no, no, no, no.
No, I don't want to see it.
We mustn't have seen it.
I want to see it.
I want to think that it's happened.
She's going, I'll have it eating out the palm of my heart.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it's absolutely the right decision not to show us.
We mustn't be shown it and that's what's so great about this.
The twist is so good.
At any point, if we know this is a strategy, it doesn't work.
So it has to play as if it's real, you know?
Yeah.
And so this is the kissing scene and they've tussled his hair
looks like a romantic hero a bit more now.
And it's this thing, she's staring into his eyes and looking at
her, she's absolutely bunging it on.
That's amazing.
We'll wait for you.
I'll wait for you.
They have a kiss, yeah.
It's one of those horribly chaste kisses, right?
And then he pulls away and she grabs his head and goes, no, come
here.
He initiates the kiss and she is she looks surprised, but then she
pulls him in for a proper kiss.
Cheers, yeah.
Look at that.
And that's her saying, I'm going to win this one.
You know, like, that's absolutely what...
Kate Mulgrew kissed me like that.
My coach... telling you.
Oh my goodness, she's so good.
It's so true.
Oh my god, look at her face.
Got you.
Yeah, no, I think it's unreadable.
Look at that.
Terrible PSO there, look.
Yeah, look, I mean, like, that's something.
Give us something.
It's like a bit of a break from the standing set.
Yeah, it is a bit shit though, isn't it?
Unfortunate.
So now we've got to play out this whole music.
They're coming onto the ship, you know, that's all going to happen
again.
But it all happens very economically because we've seen it all at
the beginning.
Because we've seen it.
We know how it works.
That's right That's right.
Yeah, no, look what I'm trying to be intimidated. on top of them.
Oh, look at it.
No, no, no.
We call her protocol.
She's loving it.
But I love her thing where originally in the 1st iteration, the
1st inspection, she says, you know, give them your complete
cooperation, but this time it's give them your usual warm
welcome.
Great moments like that for the run, you know.
Don't forget where the Vadean stormed the ship.
She went, Ganem, Welcome to the bridge, just as the whole shit
blew off.
She's amazing.
So good.
Oh, yeah, the usual warm welcome. 15, 12, 8, 4, and one.
It's so great.
Oh my god, this is the 1st wardrobe, so I'm telling you.
It's really terrific.
And that smile as she goes off.
And then how are we playing it?
How are we playing this scene?
Does he say to her?
going to be back.
I'll be back in a minute when in that other state?
Or does she not know he's going to be in charge of it?
Oh, yeah, I'm not sure.
She, yeah, I don't think she's blindsided by this because the
episode requires her not to be.
She's got to know what's going to happen, I think.
And you know what?
Her acting ability when he plays his hat. is just phenomenal.
And then Kate Mulgar is acting mobility when she plays her hat
better.
Oh, yeah.
Do you know, there was one scene that we didn't comment on, and
it's like, they've been all a bit, you know, like all over one
another.
And then she sort of sends him away and there's a security person
and he stands to attention and she just says as he was.
I bet she's like, but she kind of says it already sly for ash.
It's so good.
And I think it's like she's almost been caught kind of
fraternising with him or having too close a relationship or saying
something that she shouldn't.
And so the guy goes to attention and she just... apologetic about
it as well, which I love.
So good.
It's so, so good.
I'm wondering if that was a description, though, or if that was
Mulgrew.
It's it's so deliberately about something though.
It's not just a little character beat it is this.
I'm in charge, I'm doing what I intend to do.
There's nothing to see here.
You don't have to pretend to hide behind being a soldier.
You know, I'm, I'm in charge.
I'm on top of this.
He's really brilliant.
The way he was holding himself there, when he was back is like
being in charge, to the way he was holding himself a couple of
scenes there, when he was defective.
It's like he's a completely different person.
He's great good.
Yeah, yeah.
And all of this we know.
Oh here we go.
Congratulations.
I followed you.
Oh.
What's straight right now.
But her half-hearted reaction to his debate is amazing.
And that sort of close up of her.
Maybe she looks concerned or she's looking like she looks
concerned, but we're supposed to think that she's been blindsided
by this.
Yeah, which is why we're getting the close-up on her and him out
of focus in the background with her reading concerned, I see.
Look at what she says, that touching story about the little girl.
She's almost exposing how shit those backstories are, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, but then he uses that, doesn't he?
He uses that story then to say this is why I do what I do.
Oh yeah, just to reinforce how evil he is. you know, a very real
threat.
We know they're not a threat.
They're children and families.
It makes it more fuckable, you know, now he's really bad
honestly.
Oh, and the outfit.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
The uniform.
There's some leather.
When Jane wears piss.
It's a look, isn't it?
It's definitely a look.
Look at her face.
Yeah, yeah.
But she looks pissed off.
Like she looks annoyed.
And then we get that little close-up of her as everyone walks past
and she looks around the bridge and sees no one but the Vor there
and like she's completely defeated at this point.
Look at her looking at the ground as she walks.
How she takes back this room in a minute is just...
It's so good and it's so quiet. she doesn't grandstand or
anything.
Cisco would. wouldn't he?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
No, she completely just so gray.
So good.
All right, here we go.
With anything we're missing. not there yet.
On the edge of my seat, some space sheet is happening.
You just need him to go, oh, curse, it's foiled again or something
like that.
But this whole thing, look, they say it out.
So it's like, yep, the torpedoes are destinating.
The transporter's going.
And so the transporter goes and then it cuts away and I think we
have to know then, like that's how we know. like we we see the
patterns.
It looks like they're about to appear, but we cut away from it.
Is that when we know that they're gone?
They're not on board anymore, surely.
I think so.
Yeah, I think so.
Look, I have fun. she's not unmoving.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
She's waiting for him to catch up.
To say this incredibly great line.
You created false readings that is the theme for this evening
isn't it?
It's so good.
It's so great.
That's the moment where she...
Vegetables.
And you know.
He didn't even have to say it.
You know that none of this is going to go on the record because he
couldn't be shown to be, you know. to be beaten.
Yeah, let's do some mullet.
Now she's picking the music and she's trying to get him to relax.
Yep.
And so they've absolutely reversed roles from their 1st scene.
It's so good.
It's so well done.
Oh goodness.
It's funny, isn't it?
The space shit is actually the main tedious part of this.
And in fact, you know, the best thing about it is just 2 people in
a room talking.
Yeah, I told you a minute.
I think that's the best of trait.
I think that's the best of trait is fantastic characters.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think I think that here, though, there's
some good writing, there's that one hot refugee, the bald one.
We don't really find out much about these, which I do comment on.
They're just, the innocent mix.
Yeah.
Off down the wormhole now.
That could have led it.
I could have led that could lead to earth, you know, that.
Yeah, no, it was just a little wormhole that led outside the
divora.
They were going to go through, weren't they?
I didn't realise you had a map.
No, but I think they were going to go through uh, afterwards and
follow them, but they can't do it because the ship's full of, of
um, Devore.
It's great seeing him out of control and properly angry too.
Like that's how you know you.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, she's he's trying to get her angry.
I think he's trying to irritate her in that 1st scene and so once
he's angry, he congratulates her.
Like, well done.
You beat me.
I had to take a few.
For gosh.
Do you understand?
Look, and now she's going, oh, kiss, he missed it.
Just to piss him off.
It's great.
If those parallel suits had any doubt, those shoes came full
spearheaded in this show.
Jeez Louise.
She's so good.
Just so tremendous I don't believe the tempting offer.
I just don't buy anything he says.
I like that.
No, I quite like that.
Because I think I'm wondering if he's trapped in, you know...
Well, you know what?
It has a little layout.
Just a little.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, and I love the music keeps playing as the ship sort of dance
off away from...
Yeah, yeah.
We get some good music over that closing shop. shot pulling back
from her on the bridge.
Yeah.
Terrific.
Yeah.
Nathan, why isn't Voyager always this good?
Wow, well, Star Trek is not usually this one I see.
Look, I think that the problems, I think that this is a show that
could only be done in the Voyager context.
And you never see the enterprise, you know, when it's on its home
turf, it can never be so completely.
You remember Starship Mine where the ship is taken over?
That's sort of a bit rare.
Oh, the binars take it over that one time.
Who knows?
But whatever.
But having this sort of having them encounter a society that just
completely kind of overcomes them and then watching them get out
of it, which happens in the killing game as well, is something
that I think only Voyager's premise allowed.
Well, I think the killing game could probably play out on one of
the other shows.
It could just be in a region of space and they take over the
ship.
But this is like an area of space, isn't it?
they're going through.
So, and it's quite rare, I think, there's probably only a handful
maybe a season's worth of episodes.
You could say that is distinctly uniquely Voyager.
Yeah.
Well, I think the trouble is the Enterprise can always call home
you know, like it's always sort of near home.
You can always just phone up Bob April on the subspace thing and
just sort of say hi, Admiral Lachayev.
Um, whereas Voyager's isolation, uh, means that that sort of story
can be done.
And look, I mean, I think that they start with the intention that
they have all of these exciting things happening in the premise
and that's what they're going to do, and then they just discover
they're just rehashing old Star Trek episodes over and over
again.
And yeah, it is a bit of a shame.
But as well, you know, I don't think, I don't think this would
have played out half as well.
It was the same episode, but we're a male captain and a female
antagonist coming in. very different, wouldn't it?
Yeah, and so, like I say, it's one of those kind of rare moments
where they really give Kate Mulgrew an acting showcase.
Yeah, well, there's a there's a kind of power thing in that
relationship, isn't there?
Which, uh, which makes it a little bit different.
I think it's so good It is really great.
So yes, I think this could only be done with a female captain and
can probably only be done on Voyager.
And like with that power dynamic, if, like, he kind of gives her
or no, I'll say, he gives her space to be in charge.
She doesn't give him any space to be in charge.
But if he had tried to dominate those things in any way.
I know, it just, it could have been played very differently.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, you know, everyone sort of compares her to Catherine
Hepburn and Catherine Hepburn is sort of famous for that sort of
um, you know, sort of screwball comedy romance thing.
And I think they're leaning into that a little bit here.
It's not sort of withy dialogue or anything like that, but it is
the 2 of them getting together as kind of equals in that all
nighter with the coffee in the mess hall, where the relationship
really appears to land.
And I think it works incredibly well.
They're needling each other a little bit, but they're mostly on
the same page, except that we know that it's all being faked.
Uh, which makes it so great.
I think, I think it's a really properly solid script that is about
something and it's not about politics or anything like that
although that comes into it.
It's just about this central relationship, these 2 acting
performances.
I'm going to, to finish, I'm going to circle it round back to
again.
You said you wanted a big love informal group, you're going to get
it.
In 2 episodes time, you have Bride of Chaotica, where she plays
Queen Arachnia, head of the Spider People, in the most fabulous
pantomimic performance you've ever seen in Star Trek.
And then later in the season.
She gets to do 1159 where she plays Janeway's ancestor.
Oh, yeah.
And she gives a really different, gentle, beautiful performance in
that as well.
Like, She's diverse.
You know, she's she's just amazing.
Sorry, I just want to bring those 2 up because I think they give
her the same thing to do over and over again.
She saw with baseball, she's the scientist, she's the captain
whatever.
But when they kind of give her something incredible to do.
She might be possibly the best leader of a Star Trek show.
Yeah, I think she's definitely up there.
I make that case.
All right, it's time for us to choose our next Star Trek episode.
So Joe is at untitled Star Trek project.com slash randomiser and
tell us what series we're choosing from.
I'm gonna be a little bit predictable, I'm afraid. and do, I'm
going to follow Pat.
We've had for the last 2 weeks and I'm going to include every Star
Trek show.
I don't feel like singling out any shows this week.
We run out of ideas as far as I understand, I think it is.
No, no, no, no, because I think we if this isn't occurs when
episode, we kind of need to head back there fairly soon. because
we've done a couple of nights.
Yeah.
But let's just see what we get, shall we?
Okay.
Press the button.
Okey-dokey.
Your random Star Trek, lower decks episode is...
Season one, episode for Moist Vessel.
Yes, I think that is actually a pretty great one.
We've only done one of those.
Moist.
Yeah, we should probably do another lower decks episode, you
know.
Yeah, so it's like there's a thing that turns the ship into kind
of plant matter or something like that.
I'm struggling to remember which one it is.
Am I right about that?
Yeah, no, it's a thing that tariff is a sort of terraforming ship
that turns the ship into sort of pliant matter and stuff like
that.
It's a very cartoony premise, but it's pretty funny.
Well, it's Star Trek Lower Decks.
What do think?
Oh, no, I'm terribly sorry, but I have already pressed the farm
again.
You've pressed again.
I have, yeah.
Oh, it's number Voyager episode.
So we won't do this, so I'll press it again.
We've just done a voyage.
Okay, but what is it?
If you have to tell us what it is. which is another cracking
episode.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's another past one, isn't it?
We go back into the past.
No, no, no, no.
It's the season 6 episode with Barclay and Troy.
Oh, wait.
Pathfinder project.
Yes, of course.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, is Deanna in that?
Are you going to do Primus of Deanna?
God, you're obsessed with the woman, honestly.
Okay.
Your random Star Trek discovery episode is The Wolf Inside.
Season one, episode 11.
Oh, so the wolf inside is a reference to the fact that Ash is
really vogue.
Uh, I think.
It's always a bit hard to tell with discovery because it's so
serialised because the episode titles are so opaque.
Okay.
I'll press it again.
I'm so sorry.
Okay.
Your random Star Trek, the original series episode is series 3.
Oh, there.
Episode 15.
Let that be your last battlefield.
Oh, you know what, when that is?
Is that the one with the half?
Yeah.
Black, half, white face.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, well, like...
Sorry.
This is the last time I shall press the button, okay?
Because a discovery episode, we're doing it no matter what.
Your random Star Trek Discovery episode is but to connect season
four, episode seven.
So this is the mid-season finale for series 4 and it features kind
of the introduction of a new character and a big kind of break
between Book and Michael and a huge kind of political thing.
There a massive political meeting and stuff like that.
And I think it's really interesting because I think it leads to
the strongest run of episodes Discovery ever has, which is coming
back at the beginning of the year with just a run of episodes
towards the series 4 finale, which reaches a satisfying end, is
serialised but tells a coherent story every episode, and does some
proper science fiction.
So this is a little bit of a kind of big episode leading into a
run of really very strong episodes.
Well, I'm going to do something.
Maybe press a button again.
Oh, well, do you think we should?
No.
No, no, no, I think we should do it.
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find
links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 14th of June 2022 and released on
the 26th of June.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Discovery, but to connect.
No, no, no, let's do it, but I'm gonna do something.
I've not seen season four of Discovery.
I'm going to watch the 1st 7 episodes of Discovery.
Oh, okay.
Leaving out for this, but I'll know nothing beyond it.
Okay, all right.
That's interesting.
That sounds like a good plan.
And this is a season that you have hyped to some degree.
So I am looking forward to see if it lives up to that.
Yeah, I think it's really good.
All right.
Okay.
That's an interesting one.
Now, listen, you got a scoop.
I'm gonna press stop.
I have to scoot because I've got Alfie yelling at me in the other
room. so hot.
I need to go south.
I went for 10 minutes.
I'm roasting.