Hey, Joe. Hi.
So last time the Randomiser chose for us, an episode of Star Trek
Voyager, it's series 7, episode 12, uh, and it's called Lineage
how do you feel about us covering lineage?
I've watched it 3 times in the last week.
I don't want to see it again for a little while, if I'm honest.
I've seen it twice because I'm a professional.
And yeah, I don't want to see it again.
If you send me more pictures of that CGI baby. honestly. my god
we'll get there.
Come, dear, oh, dear.
So this was on broadcast in January 2001.
So we have CGI from January 2001. and it's not the high point of
CGI and we will definitely get to that.
I mean, just to put this in context, yeah.
We've talked about the CGI Babylon 5 before, yeah. and that was
CGI before this.
So this is better CGI than Babylon 5, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
And Voyager has done some visually impressive things over the past
few years at this point, I think.
Like it often looks very good.
If they're doing those, like, planet escapes and things like
this.
Another season 7 episode workforce starts off with a pan across a
planet and the detail in it is extraordinary.
But I think there's a lot big difference between creating a
setting and doing a CGI person at this point.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Well I will definitely have things to say about that.
What's your feeling about Voyager generally?
Well, I feel like it should be called Star Trek Miss Potential.
Because I think Voyager has a huge amount of potential and every
time I watch Caretaker, I think this show had legs, like this cast
has, it's a good cast on the whole, um, and they're doing
interesting things with the characters at the beginning and
they're throwing him off into an unknown part, area of space.
And then we get 7 years of the next generation, but kind of like
fake the next generation.
We've, we've, you know, I'm not going to say the entire run of
voyagers. shit.
There are highlights, absolute highlights.
You know, they poured money into some big epic 2 parters and, you
know, there's some really fun stuff.
But as a whole, the premise of being lost in, you know, an
aerospace and trying to find your way home was completely
squandered and that's a shame.
Yeah, I have a feeling that they just went to the Delta Quadrant
to get out of Deep Space 9s way so that the 2 shows weren't
affecting one another.
And it is just the sort of usual procedural that next generation
and original trek were, and I don't think it has much ambition to
be more than that.
What's your personal feeling about Voyager?
Um, I don't have the kind of nostalgic affection for it that I
have for Star Trek the Next Generation.
And I think that means that I'm less blind to its flaws than I am
next, Jane.
But there are some good things in it, and the production is really
great.
And you say that they don't make a lot of the actual premise and
that's true, but it does change quite a bit over the 7 year run, I
think.
Even if it's just sort of different rubber-faced aliens this year
or whatever.
But it does sort of reinvent itself.
I have a feeling that its politics are a little bit more
conservative than I like for my Star Trek, but that won't come up
this episode, I don't think.
Two things I want to acknowledge that quickly before we go into
the episode.
I think this is a stronger cast than the next generation as a
whole.
I think that the best cast members of Voyager are better than the
best cars.
I think there's better chemistry in the next generation.
Yeah, yeah.
We'll get to one of the MVPs of the show.
For sure, because he plays a massive role in this episode.
But obviously, your nostalgic love is for Next Generation.
So you can probably forgive, you know, Gates McFadden and Marina
service.
Yeah, vacantly into space for an entire episode. gladly.
Now, the other thing is, the annoying thing with Voyager is. every
now and again, right?
They lean into the idea of the premise.
So they do scorpion and it's like, 0 my god, we're entering ball
space.
And then in the next episode, like, wow, we're out of boards case
now.
Like, you know, case pushed us out of that.
And then in season 6 they do Equinox and they've got a ship that
went into the Delta Quadrant, exactly the same time as Voyager, and
they've made all the wrong moves and they've stepped on races to
get ahead and it's clearly been a much more, and why the hell
haven't we been watching Star Trek Equinox instead of watching?
Because that sounds way more interesting.
And then in series 7, they do the most egregious thing they could
possibly do, and they do the void where Voyager ends up in this
strange period of space in the Delta Quadrant, where they have to
form alliances with all these races for a single episode, and it's
full of conflicts and space battles, and you're like, well, what
the hell is this?
What have we been watching for the last 7 years?
Sorry, nice bit of a run.
It's like they know.
They know what they could be doing.
And they're not doing it.
Yeah, yeah.
And it seems to me to be a deliberate choice to have avoided doing
things that are serialised and yeah, that's right.
That's right.
All right.
I think we've sold it to everyone now.
So here we go.
On Netflix, all 7 seasons.
Knock yourself out.
Maybe not by now.
All right.
So let's, uh, I'm ready here on the very 1st frame of the episode
ready to press play, so I'll count us in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
It's like a spoon, isn't it, the Voyager?
I think it looks like a spoon.
My toilet bowl looks very like Star Trek Voyager, that the
front...
Yeah.
The great tall bowen space.
Now, clearly, Tom and B'Elana have just had sex in that scene.
What have you had for breakfast nation?
I'm not going to even.
I'm not even gonna answer that.
And now she's all postcoital over engineering.
She's in a rare good mood.
And we will talk a little bit about her temper because I think
it's interesting.
She's not often in a good mood, is she?
She's not often this junior at work.
So she's going to discover that she's pregnant, but she has
actually been pregnant before in the run of the show, has she?
Roxanne Dawson was.
Yeah.
And they did that thing of, not right, and it is.
Putting her in a jumper.
Against the fan thing of having the, you know, the medical coat on
or being hidden behind consoles all the time, you know?
And, you know, her face is twice as large as it normally is, you
know?
So I actually think there's the ghost of a more interesting
episode here where she's inhabited by a parasite.
Like they they immediately...
They've never done that before. like the child in series 2 of Star
Trek the Next Generation.
But I do like there's a sort of lower decks vibe to them jumping
to a ludicrous Star Trek explanation for what's going on.
Okay, this is my 1st favourite bit of this episode.
And it's all done to Jerry Ryan's performance where each of goes
I'm detecting another life form and Jerry Ryan's looking around
the room going, where?
She's so used to their being, you know, spirits and aliens
floating about that.
Okay, I rather like this title sequence.
I have recently watched it on YouTube in 4K and it looks
incredible.
Go and check that out on YouTube.
It looks amazing.
I think that this tells the story too.
You know, like we talked about the DS9 titles last time and, you
know, the way that the Enterprise whizzes past the camera.
And so having this just goes slowly.
Yeah, for a nebula.
Going for another nebula.
I mean it's basically Voyager, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. essentially.
That maybe there is the one that turns all the corridors around.
The next nebula is the one that inhabits people.
Oh my god.
I want to say, though.
I do want to say about Voyager, yeah. is, you know, I probably
will rip at it quite a lot.
It is really watchable.
Like, even the worst episodes are very, it's very entertaining.
Like, it's kind of switch your brain off a lot the time.
Yeah.
And I think that's what it's going for.
I think that's why people would like to watch it.
And I think this is the most watched Star Trek show on Netflix, but
when they brought out the figures for, and I think it's because
it's like friends.
You can just sort of put it on, have it on in the background.
It's kind of comforting.
You know you're going to get to a nice ending, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's I think that's probably fair.
And I think maybe to sort of modern viewers, Star Trek, the Next
Generation looks too old and because it had a couple of dud years
at the beginning.
Whereas this is sort of like the floor is the ceiling's not
particularly high.
The floor is a bit higher than Star Trek the Next Generation
probably.
But this is an interesting episode of Voyager, in Safari, it is
purely character driven.
There is, there's nothing kind of science fiction in it's beyond
her attempting to re-sequence the child later on.
Yeah, yeah.
And also I think it has something to say, which it doesn't do in
the sort of usual kind of metaphorical way so much, and we'll
definitely get to it.
I want to start right now by saying how incredibly superb Robert
Picardo is.
The best actor on this.
Probably.
Yeah. and one of the very, very best actors to ever be in Star
Trek.
I just think he is unbelievably good at everything.
I think it's telling.
Yeah.
Very, very telling that they give, so he starts off and he's in
series one, he's getting the odd scene, the odd comic scene, yeah.
But by the end, they've built a kind of a narrative into his
character and he's getting the big hitter episodes, yeah?
And he's the holographic doctor.
You've got someone like Jakotay, who's giving a very bland
performance, and I think they're kind of seeing that, who as the
show goes on, he just gets forgotten.
So I think he was rewarded for how good he was as the show went
on.
And in the latter half of the series, episodes like Latin image
lifeline, critical care, author author.
They have phenomenal Star Trek episodes and they're very, very
good because Robert Picardo is, you know, spearheading them.
Yeah.
No, for me, he's up there with Doug Jones among the pantheon of
the very, very best people ever to be in Star.
Oh, come on, that's Saru.
Oh, I don't know about Discovery.
You know that.
Honestly, Jason, the way information, I'm afraid.
Oh, God, here we go.
So, okay, so we're about to head into them saying, right, we're
going to keep this on the down low.
We're not going to tell anyone.
I'm going to laugh.
And of course, this is Bloody Voyager.
They're not going to keep this a secret for 2 minutes.
But also it's like a cheesy, low hanging gag as well. like a now
we walk into the mess hall and everyone's applauding.
It's so cheesy.
You just don't want Neelix to know anything about anything because
you know he's going to, you know, anything he knows about, the
tradition, your birthday, he's going to have a party in that mess
hole themed around it, don't you?
So here's a secret confession.
I really quite like Neelix.
And I think that Ethan Phillips is very good at what he's given to
do.
It's such a shame that we have to end that podcast here then, but
bye, everybody.
I mean, he's got stupid hair and his face is covered in latex and
whatever.
They've meshed together the worst of every Star Trek aliens.
What?
Crazy hair.
Weird bridges. teeth.
What look were they going for?
It's like the sick doctor's coat in Doctor Who.
It's like the worst possible taste.
He can be very charming, though.
I get that.
He can be incredible.
Yeah.
You know, like once they dump the whole, you know, anxious about
dating Kess thing, which was just hideously embarrassing and
impossible to watch, I think he's pretty good.
And I remember Benson, when I was a kid, where he and Renee
Aubourginois were on a sitcom together, for God's sake.
I mean, unless, I mean, let's not pretend you can't be fucking
annoying as well at times.
But they're writing him to be annoying.
And so I think it's a meteoric success on Ethan Phillips's part
that he can sometimes be charming.
Yeah.
Oh, no, it's Harry Kim, the walking cardboard of Star Trek
Voyager.
Oh, and this, I mean, again, this conversation is so boring.
You know, it's a conversation about, don't you think?
Like, oh, you know, you'll have a child and then you'll lose all
your friends and could anything be more trite and less
interesting?
You're in a fucking spaceship, guys.
You know, like...
This is this is the Miles and Julian Voyager.
This is the bromance of Star Trek Voyager.
It is about 100th as interesting.
Yeah, yeah.
And you know why it is?
It's because it's not Colin Meaney and Alexander Siddig.
It's Robert, what's his name?
Robert Duncan McNeil and Garrett Wang.
And frankly, you know, sorry guys, I know you have your own
podcast.
They're not very good actors.
Garrett Wang's pretty though.
Well, yeah, well, you weren't married to an Asian man, so but he
is very pretty, yes.
Oh, so now this is, I quite like this scene where, um, Chewbok
doesn't even look up from his work that says, oh, well
congratulations.
He's the one person who doesn't know because he doesn't listen to
gossip on Voyager.
Yeah, yeah.
But again, this scene is incredibly boring and doesn't go
anywhere.
And like, can it possibly go anywhere?
The baby actually gets born when, um, when in the final episode
when they reach Earth.
So we never see him actually being a parent.
Yeah, we go. lost potential again.
They could have had the baby.
Yeah, maybe we take a start, Klingon pregnancies are very quick
and they have the baby within a couple of episodes and then we
deal with the fallout.
Yeah, because we know Klingon childhoods are incredibly quick from
Alexander.
Yeah exactly.
They're just adults instantly.
But yeah, no, this, I think this is a sort of contractual
obligation scene.
We've got to give Tim Russ something to do.
And I also think that Tim Russ is a pretty strong performer as
well.
I think he was given material worthy of him once a year, which is
very annoying. you know.
He's very often at his console saying, you know, they're firing at
us, you know, and things like that.
The Councillor Troy, but the tactical version.
It's easy to forget that he's there.
I think.
But I think he is...
I know it's not a website, but you remember Mald, where he, my
Mald, where Brad Dorff, and he becomes like a serial killer.
He's fucking terrifying in that.
Yeah.
Instead, he's having to do sort of tedious Vulcan acting here
which is a bit bad.
Imagine if in that episode there was some like latent serial
killer in him that ran through the rest of the city. that would
have been very interesting Yeah, yeah.
He could just pick off the occasional person in the mess.
Here we go.
She's she's annoyed now because she's like, oh, Janeway is
practically relieved me of command because I'm pregnant.
We didn't even talk about that scene, but I think that Janeway is
so incredibly warm in that scene.
It's absolutely lovely.
Kate Mulgrew is... she's an unsung hero of the show.
She's not really.
People do sing her praises.
I think that Kate Mulgrew is terrific in Star Trek Voyager, and I
think Captain Janeway is written terribly.
And take of that what you will.
She does her best with some pretty chonky material throughout the
run.
Yeah, but I think that there's no real kind of, I mean, I don't
know before, like, we've talked about this before, um, but Tom
Paris really has kind of, like, just a sort of bundle of
uninteresting characteristics, but, you know, I think.
I think he started well.
I think in that 1st episode where he's in the penal colony and
then he goes and he's got history with Chakotay, and there's a lot
of tension with him.
And in series 2, where they're trying to pretend that he's like a
rebel in the course. and it's all a big fan.
That's really interesting.
And then from free onwards, he just becomes kind of like, you know
your Starfleet guy.
Yeah.
And let's not forget the thing that they do, you know, 3 times a
season when they want to do like a quirky episode and that's Tom
Paris.
Oh my god, I'm absolutely obsessed with cartoons.
I'm absolutely attracted.
Yeah, whatever it is, they were like, oh, aren't you an expert in
20th century fashion?
Oh, I just...
Very strange.
And again, this whole conversation here that we've just had is
also just ridiculous and doesn't make any sense.
I mean, presumably they've been pregnant for like a couple of
hours as far as they're aware, and they're already sick of people
offering them advice.
It's all just infected.
I mean, by the end of the episode, the baby's kicking.
So I'm assuming we're quite far along already. 7 weeks.
Now look at look at Robert Picardo here. where he's accidentally
given the game away.
It's like he's comic timing and his sort of silly.
You cannot infer that from what I said.
Please don't delete my sub routines, banana.
I actually think that he gets the best scene in the episode and
we'll get there because I think that there's an astoundingly good
scene.
I agree with you.
I think it comes right at the end of the episode, if we're talking
about the same scene.
But, um, I think with Voyage as well, the cast, um, there is such
a difference between the strongest members and the weakest
members.
It's high, like it's a dramatic kind of difference between the
two.
And you just have to watch this scene and see Robert Kardo
acting.
And Robert Bunker, Neil acting.
We're in 2 different worlds, aren't we?
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think, um, I think B'Alana's a little bit one note
as a character, but I do think that, um, as an actor, yeah, she's
got a lot of charm.
And when they give her an episode. like you look at remember in
series three, the Holocaust episode where she's playing.
She is phenomenally good.
If they stretch her.
She's very good.
Yeah.
Here, like I'm not sold on how she behaves here.
No, me.
Oh, and here we go.
The CGI baby.
Oh, it's so beautiful.
It's fucking hideous.
It's really really horrible.
And that's not, I'm not being racist about Klingon human baking.
No, no, it's just an ugly CG pixel baby.
It's horrible.
Do you remember Covenant in DS9 series 7 where they went to the
other extreme and they had the animatronic baby?
And the hedge was going, yep, yep, yep.
It was really terrible.
So I don't know, maybe the CGO is a better approach.
It was a better choice.
Or they could have just addressed a dog up to look like a baby.
Mark and I, Mark and I wrote said the thing wouldn't bloody, like
stop.
And then head was just going crazy.
I was probably possessed.
Oh, they had a nice comfy bed there in their clothes.
They do.
Why don't they have like space space blankets like on the
Enterprise?
No, because in DS9, They've got those horrible space cushions
those kind of gray cushions.
I'd much rather have a bed like this.
Oh, no.
Okay, so here we are in the stock standard Star Trek forest number
three.
Oh my god, it's so bad.
It's like a soap opera, like a daytime soap opera.
We can't afford to go outside, so we're just going on a camping
trip to a TV studio.
It's super miserable.
I mean, the lighting, they've got good at the lighting from Star
Trek, the next generation, and so the lighting isn't too bad.
It's kind of fuzzy.
Is that because it's a flashback?
Yeah, I think that there's a kind of sort of glowy light theme
original series.
Well, you know, when you look at a female character and it goes
kind of romantically fuzzy and then and then it goes very sharp
when you go back to them and, this looks like that, that's all
weird.
Yeah, I think they've done that to make it a flashback.
Everything's slightly glowy.
Now, what's interesting, isn't he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh no, he really is.
What I think is interesting, right, is that B'lana is half Klingon
but her family, her human family, so her father, like she's a
Latina woman, isn't she?
So she's, yeah, and it's in her name, yeah.
Um, like, you know, Torres, her last name is clearly sort of
Spanish.
Um, and so there is a sort of weird thing in which the Klingon
thing with the irrational anger and stuff is a little bit of a
stand in for that because I think that...
I think that's a bit cheap and a bit obvious.
It is a little bit obvious, but what it didn't enables this
episode to do is to be about what it's like to grow up as a member
of a minority, like a racial minority.
And we don't neither of us know what it's like.
Um, and, um, but there's all sorts of things here that ring really
true.
And, you know, we'll get to it, I think.
But I just think that it's super interesting.
And so her response is dismissed by her father and to some degree
by Tom Paris as well.
Yeah, who is a white man.
Towards the end of the episode, he's the one that kind of endorses
her and the baby and the writing kind of confirms that, you know
like he's the one saying, you know, you're okay as you are, the
baby's okay.
But it's a white man saying that to her, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
But what I think is interesting.
So, so this, that, the other thing here too is that this is kind
of a bit crap, this sort of flashback B plot.
It's very kind of whatever.
But what's interesting is I think we already know that this is
going to be a sort of experience of racism thing because she's
dismayed that the baby will have the racial characteristics that
she was teased for as a child, right?
Now we see this where she's being fed a worm by these other kids.
But do you know what?
I don't think the 2 correlate well.
Because the idea is the father saying, oh, you know, I can't
handle her being a Klingon and then walking out on their lives and
her re-sequencing her baby to have no...
It's just so exciting.
Yeah, yeah.
I feel like that could have worked if it had been a little
subtler.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, I mean, it is Star Trek, and so it's going to be sort of
absurd. to some degree.
I've got a question for you then.
Yeah.
Is her wanting to re-sequence the baby and remove...
Is that like the most racist act in all of Star Trek?
But I think, I mean, it's kind of dealt with slightly in in faces
isn't it?
Which I only have a sort of vague memory of where the 2 halves of
them are split into a human and a Klingon. about subtlety, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But here.
So have a look at this too, because you might be right, because
look, that's sort of 12-year-old, you know, baby. very prissy
isn't she?
Yeah, yeah.
But when she re-sequences her DNA, and she's got dark hair and
dark eyes because her mother's Latina, she's blonde, isn't she?
And she's blonde when, so, you know, like I've heard stories of, of
people disliking members of sort of my minority racial groups
disliking some features that they have that set them apart, you
know, like black women, black women getting comfortable with their
natural hair, um, you know, stuff like that, people being dismayed
by the things that set them apart, and that's what she's
experiencing here, even though they're stupid sort of Klingon
ridges or whatever.
But I do think the fact that the baby goes from being dark-haired
to blonde is kind of...
Very telling, doesn't it?
But I think you're giving this a smarter reading than what's in
the writing here.
No, I think it's actually present.
I think that that's what they're trying to do.
And you and I, before we started recording, talked about how
Roxanne Dawson felt about this episode and how moved she was by
it.
Move to tea, she says.
Yeah, yeah.
And it is that thing about, um, remember, she's a mother at this
point as well.
So she could have been talking about it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All of that, you know.
But she's not a white woman.
Like she has presumably experienced some form of racism as a child
and some sort of, you know, like some anxiety about being a member
of a sort of minority racial group and the way that you get
treated.
And initially I thought that it was just the gark thing with the
you know, putting the worm on her sandwich that this was going to
be about.
But it actually does take a turn and it is a little bit more
convincingly terrible than that.
So this is leaning sensitively into race then.
Why doesn't this have the profound impact of something like far
beyond the stars, which, you know, when you...
Like the last scene where Avery Brooks breaks down in front of
everybody, it is unforgettable, isn't it?
Whereas this, you know, were you going to remember this next
week?
No, probably not, but it is, and it is making it more palatable by
having it be about Klingons, whereas, you know, far beyond the
stars is about a black man, you know, in America in the 50s or
whatever.
Um, is it the 50s?
I'm not sure.
But um, in the 20th century anyway.
What you're saying is that they're doing something interesting
with the idea of race, but it's not doing anything, especially
engaging with it.
Well, I think that what's interesting is that both Tom and her
father tell her she needs to be less sensitive.
And her father compares the racism she experiences at school with
him being made fun of for falling asleep in class, right?
And she says it's not like that and he doesn't believe her.
And Tom at one point.
Yeah, here.
She's explaining what it felt like to her and he, a white man, is
saying that's not going to be our daughter's experience.
I know that.
And the thing is that he can't possibly know.
How could he know?
And so her feelings.
Yeah, she keeps saying, you don't understand what it's like.
And he's inclined to make it okay.
Well, do you think then, obviously, you and I are both white men
do you think a person of colour watching this?
Could, you know, we both said, after we watched it, someone, that
was a little bit tedious, it was a bit pat, you know, blah, blah
would watch this and actually would be moved by it.
Well, I don't know, but I did, I found that the most interesting
part of the episode was the way we dealt with racism.
And Jama is a person of colour.
Jam with reviews online.
And I think he's one of the biggest trek reviewers online.
He loved this. and thought it was very hard hitting and very
moving.
So maybe there is something in that.
Yeah, well, I love to see it.
Sorry, sorry to take you away from race.
This bit where I love the way Janeway can cut straight to the
point sometimes.
She's basically, I sort shit out. sort your marriage out. okay?
I'm not getting involved and just awesome out.
I'm in awe of the way she gets up out of the chair in a minute.
It's so great.
She's just so good.
It always looks so fabulous, doesn't it?
came on through, honestly.
When they let her have it down.
Obviously, it was like the Avery Brooks effect in series one for 3
when they force her to have it tied back in a very masculine way.
Oh, no, she has a sort of French curl like Richie Cunningham's
mother.
I really liked it.
When it comes down, I love it.
And then you know when it's gone to shit in like year of hell
because it's all over the place and in disarray, you know?
And see, look here is Tom dismissing her feelings about, you know
which...
Oh, I hate this line.
Oh, it's not just some kind of hormonal outburst.
That's such a get up.
Look at her getting up out of the chair.
How grateful was that?
She's such a demon.
There you go. sorting this out.
It's marital.
Get out.
Although she does it in a very sensitive way, you know?
I actually think that, you know, there are problems with the way
that she's characterised and stuff, but I like how properly tough
she is.
And she's the 1st female captain, you know, and I think the 1st
woman to helm a Star Trek show.
It's only happened since one time, hasn't it?
Oh, maybe true.
It's very interesting because I think Mulgrew can be scarier and
more authoritative than Avery Brooks.
And I think Avery Brooks can be gentler and more like paternal
than Mulgrew.
And you know, you wouldn't think that would be the case with those
2 actors.
Oh, no, here we go.
So now Tom Harris has been basically kicked out of his house.
So he's off to Harry Kitten's house.
And this has happened a few times throughout the run where Harry
Kim is playing his saxophone because apparently that makes sense
for a week?
Like, what's with that bag?
Why do they think that that saxophone makes hurricane
interesting?
I think they're trying to do the Riker thing because Riker
plays...
What about the clarinet?
No, no, no.
So Harry played the clarinet originally and then branched out to
the saxophone.
Oh, right.
I could place the trombone.
Trumpet.
Yeah.
Trombone.
Yeah.
But this is just like absolute sitcom bullshit.
It's so played and so tried.
It's like Darren Stevens being zapped downstairs to the couch in
bewitched, you know?
It's some...
And I hate to keep making the comparisons and I know I do this.
This is the sort of scene they would ace India Snide with the
fully formed characters and, you know, better actors.
This scene would sing.
I've seen scene. the great scene between Julian and Miles when
Keiko's coming over and they've got clear the crap out of their
bachelor pad before she gets home and it's hilarious, you know?
You see, I think because Voyager is just procedural, like um, Star
Trek and Star Trek, the Next Generation, and and Deep Say sign is
the 1st one that isn't.
You know, this is we go to a planet, we encounter a space problem
and we solve it.
And so that doesn't require detail characterisation beyond what
people are competent at, particularly if the characters aren't
going to disagree with one another very much.
I would agree with what you're saying there, but the doctor and 7
of 9 have a very distinct character arc.
They can do it.
They just choose not to do it with Harry.
No, that's right.
Neelix.
When we don't have a space problem this week, the show founders
it's got nothing to fall back on.
Whereas House of Quark isn't a space problem episode, really.
Is it?
It's like a sitcom, hilarious, you know, it's almond Clark.
Yeah, Clark tells lies and gets himself into bother kind of gag.
And Deep Space 9 can cope with that, but I think Voyager falls.
Look at the signs where we've perked up during this so far when
Kate Mulgra was on screen when Jerry Ryan was on screen.
It's not any of the main actors that are taking part in this
episode, is it?
No.
So it's like luck of the draw from weeks to week.
Is this going to be about one of the good actors, right?
you might be well characterised then.
Yeah, so here's the here's the bit that I was talking about before
where little B'Elana explains to her dad about the racism she
experiences and he dismisses it.
So he's an asshole, I think, is...
Yeah, but I don't think the episode is characterising him as an
asshole, and I don't think...
Do you think?
I don't think it's hard enough then.
I think the episode is kind of being written by a white man.
Like, I don't know.
It's um, I don't know who it is.
It's James Carn.
I don't know. possibly not.
I wanted to talk very quickly about Tom and B'Elana and their
relationship.
Because it is, is it the only relationship?
In the entire run, I think it is.
And it only hits in, so they have Tom Paris throughout, series one
to 3 trying to bed, what, Kiz and the Delaney sisters and anyone
he can find, you know?
The lady sisters.
They turn up.
Do you remember when they turn off in their chaotic program?
It's very funny that's right One of the rare examples of them
paying something off.
And then in series 4, they decided, no, we're going to pair up Tom
and Belana.
And it's an interesting idea and they're very different
characters.
But, It's all very sitcom. all of the time, and it's never got
much depth to it, and I don't know if it's the actors, I don't
know if it's the writing, but it's all, you know, in series 4
they're like kind of in corridors, snogging, and someone comes on
oh, quick, let's get in this cupboard.
It's all played like that I'm right up to like when they're
getting married and it's like, oh, Tom Paris is more interested in
this space race, then getting narrow to Balana.
I'm not really convinced by the relationship, but every now and
again, and I think the end of this episode as hysterical as it is
I do buy into the fact that there are a couple, I think, going on
a journey together.
But if, wow, there's no relationships in TNG is there that I can
think of.
Well, you know, Deanna and Worf briefly.
Oh, God, it's terrible.
Any tangible ones?
No, no.
I mean, you know, like Riker and Deanna are exes.
Okay, like Dax and Worf then in DS9, where, you know, they're
instantly flirting and they get odd.
And, and you go on a real journey and it's like an emotional
journey where you're investing in those 2 characters and where
they're going to the point where she dies and you're devastated
because he's then on his own.
And that has fallout.
Whereas this is very different.
This is just very comedy sitcom relationship.
But he doesn't want to do any of that stuff because it's the space
anomaly of the week show.
And so there's a bit of window dressing here.
And see, look at this.
He is an asshole.
Look at this.
What a racist.
He's doing it.
She's just in the 10 over there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And you think that's the reveal.
So we have that close-up of her face.
She's been thinking about that.
We think that's the climax of the flashback, the moment where her
father basically rejects her and her mother in her hearing, which
um, and so then getting the extra thing, I think, is a fantastic
twist.
Could Jocose be any more boring?
Like, yeah, oh my god.
Oh my goodness.
Okay, I know, I'm talking about a lot of other episodes here, but
I think you kind of need to revoyager, because there are moments
where these characters work.
There's an episode in series 2 where they lean into the Janeway
Chakotay relationship where they're stuck on a planet and they
acknowledge that they're going to have a relationship because
they're stuck on and they start holding hands and things.
And if they run with that, he could have been so interesting.
And it's like, you know, the captain's bit on the side, you know?
No, she's she only fucks holograms.
That's my point, though, is that there are interesting
opportunities to explore and they never take that interesting
opportunity.
Yeah, no.
And they don't want to.
And I think that...
Why don't they want to make the show interesting?
Well, because they think the space anomalies and the solving space
anomaly problems are interesting.
I think that's it.
We've had 7 years of that on TNG.
We don't think that seasons.
That's the problem.
That's precisely the problem, I think.
Oh, dear.
Oh, okay.
So this fake out doctor now, right?
I remember when I was 1st watching this game, yeah, she's
reprogrammed. like there's no there's no hint.
There's no, she's there going, what?
What is it?
Like pretending that she doesn't know that she's pre-programmed
but it's very... some great acting from Roxanne.
And he's playing it slightly differently as well.
He's slightly more wooden, just not, you know, data level wooden
but.
Have you watched Voyager?
He's played the evil doctor in about 20 different ways so far.
He knows how to do this now.
He's so good He is so good.
I don't know what Tom is thinking there.
It doesn't last long, does it?
Because within about 30 seconds.
Him and 7 are trying to like get in there and stop this from
happening.
Yeah, it's and it's kind of bullshit.
It is like, because it's too over the top.
And so we need some jeopardy this episode.
And so she just goes to town, you know, like she's reprogrammed
the doctor, erected a force field, you know, the whole thing.
Did she thing would come of this?
Like, did she think that him and Tom were, Oh, well, you know, I've
done it now.
You know, I've locked you out and we've done the re-sequencing and
now we're just going to have a lovely human baby and everything's
going to be fine.
He probably leave her for doing this for like...
No, no, no.
She knows she's on Voyager and everyone will have forgotten all
this by next week. true.
Oh my word.
Can I just say, look, Egypt's just there.
Wasn't it fabulous when they took his eye out in Picard?
They kill him in Picard.
He's dead.
Oh, he was so boring.
He deserved it.
Oh boy, Chip.
There's too many characters here.
So you've got 7 and Tuvok, who are always just hilarious in scenes
together because they're 2 really good actors having to give it
this sort of flat alien space delivery, which is so terrible.
And cherry ride is so much better in Picard because...
I realised after watching Picard how restrained she was in this.
Yeah, I think she's fantastic.
Like, I think she's absolutely superb and much better than we had
any right to expect.
She would be, this sort of near naked woman.
Um, I mean, I, I, I think by this point in series 7, actually
they've kind of exhausted her, what they can do with our own
Voyager, because in four, 5, and six, they just do so much with
seven.
But by this point, you're almost getting like 7 fatigue.
But those initial couple of years where her and Mulgrew aren't
getting on and the actual tension between the actors is there on
the screen, it's the most interesting Voyager ever was.
Yeah, yeah.
That was a...
I always love a big sort of unexpected cast change, you know, like
where the writers have to sort of accommodate something, like the
end of series 6 of Deep Space 9, and it does open up a show, even
a show like Voyager, which is not particularly serialised, which
forces it to do something new.
Sorry to interrupt you.
You know what we've been talking about lighting in the last 2
episodes.
Yes, Enterprise and House of War.
Have you noticed now we've gone dramatic?
Suddenly the Sick Bay lights have gone right down. as the doctors
are about to do something.
In the middle of a medical procedure, you have the lights right up
wouldn't you?
He explained in the previous episode that it was to encourage the
previous scene rather that it was to encourage vascular dilation.
Oh, they gave a reason for the dramatic.
There's a space reason for the dramatic lighting.
They're a dead hand to this now.
Okay, so this sequence here.
I do like it, um, as they actually have to talk about what is
wrong with her and she has to reveal that her dad left.
But it does get very hysterical at times.
And I'm overwhelmed.
Like, no, you know, I talk about far beyond the stars earlier, and
that bit with Avery Brooks, again, that's way hysterical.
I often find that I moved when the performances brought down with
people.
And this, you know, I'm very moved because of what she's saying
it's moving, but it is very shouty in a minute.
He's like, come on, Bilana.
Talk to me.
Have you ever had a conversation like that with your partner
because I don't have.
No.
Oh no, I did once.
I did once with an ex, actually, at the pier.
I was leaving him, like leaving leaving him and he's like, don't
walk away from me.
So I have that one conversation like a soap opera.
Sorry, a bit of a diet.
Well, you know, it's this scene, isn't it?
I also think what, I mean, yes, I never thought you'd go this
far.
It is ridiculous, and that's part of the problem, is the lengths
that she goes to, and they do deal with the fallout from it
beautifully well, I think. just absolutely supported.
Yeah, the next thing where she comes into apology.
God, it's good.
That's the best thing about the whole episode.
Oh, it's wonderful.
But it should have be.
This should be the best thing.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, no, I know you're not.
You not my father, for God's sake.
A lot of our audience will be Doctor Who fans, and this reminds me
of Curtis Ferry.
I didn't know she was my mum.
It's very of that ilk, this line.
But this, I think this is actually properly good.
Um, You know, and she's having to say it rather than getting us to
see it because, you know, obviously we can't see how she was
daddy's little girl and he really loved her and all of that sort
of thing.
And then he can't take anymore because he's a massive fucking
racist.
And, um, but the thing...
Say what you think, Nathan.
But the thing that's great.
The thing that's really good is that she tells him to leave and he
leaves 12 days later.
And Tom says it can't be because you told him to leave and she
says she doesn't buy that because it's absolutely possible from
what we see that she gave him the idea, you know, and that's why
he left.
Okay, I've just spent 7 seasons with her, all right?
And she's a lot of hard-bloody work. would have left there as
well.
Imagine her as a hormonal teenager.
But look at it.
She's so good. like in the flashback.
She's upgrading his, um, she's upgrading his fishing rod.
She's reading quietly.
Like she's good.
She's a good girl.
And I, you know, like Star Trek doesn't do sort of German
expressionism or anything.
We're supposed to understand that this is what really happened
rather than just her version of events.
And we see a good, quiet, like a bit moody little girl, but who's
experiencing racism and is feeling bad about it.
And he's dismissing her.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But I mean, so I suppose that does in a way, I still don't think
it's great, but it does inform her behaviour throughout the last 7
years of why she's had this identity issue.
Yeah.
It's it's perhaps not as satisfied payoff as it could be, but it's
something.
They're giving it some context, at least, because until when I
thought, she's just been like, I hate being Klingon, and that's
it.
That's, that's all, but for no reason.
Yeah.
And she doesn't, the reason that she hates being Klingon is
because she experienced racism as a child.
See, I can't I can't hear them say in the dialogue, obviously
because we've got the sound hand, but I'm looking at Roxanne
Dawson.
She's doing really well here.
Like she's very contained.
She's crying, you know, she's in the moment.
I just think he just blows every line.
Yeah, no, he's not very good is he?
But, But see, again, he's minimising her experience of racism.
He didn't leave because you told him to.
And she just very quietly says, you know, you don't know that, and
we don't know that.
Can I say though?
Tom Paris, yeah, it's a bit of a prick throughout this entire
run.
And everyone could have says about it.
Like, oh, yeah, that's Paris.
No one ever really deals with it, you know, he's always saying
ridiculous platitudes like this and he's always behaving in a
really bad way.
Well, I mean, I think I think some of that's just sort of
incompetence when it comes to the scripting and stuff.
Like, I don't think they intended for him to be, you know, like
terrible.
Jerry said they think he was likeable.
I hope one day that, you know, we have 2 or 3 or 4 children and
then you should just put in brackets that I can be incredibly
racist to as well.
I am not your father, and you are not, you are not your mother.
I mean, this is incredibly obvious, isn't it?
Yeah, and this is another thing too, where in a way, you know, we
all have a big cry and then the problem solved.
Even though, even though he's been dismissing, and he has said, you
know, tell me, you know, I want I want to hear about it, but he's
basically been dismissing.
Can I just mention, this is the best scene.
The doctor's voice log there because he basically does that, you
know, Dr. Crusher has repaired us all with our usual skill.
They love doing that, don't they, before the last scene.
Everything back to normal is what he's basically saying.
But look at this.
Think about how he was regarded in series one.
She has come in to apologise to him.
Even though she's treated him like a piece of hardware.
You know, and 2 beats here.
One is when he feels the baby kicking and it's both their their
shared reaction.
And 2 is when she asked him to be the godfather and his reaction
to it, i.e. my god, look how far we've come, you know?
I really like where he says, oh, well, you were hormonal Klingon
pregnancy and she says, well, that no, that's not an excuse, but
thank you for letting me off the hook.
And it is that sort of thing where he's just willing to let it
go.
He wants to forgive her.
But that's beautiful.
And I love how he asks, may I, before he goes in to touch the
kicking baby.
I'm going keep asking this question.
If they can do it here with nuance.
What about the rest of the episode?
Yeah, yeah.
Is it just because these are really good actors?
I think so.
Like, I think in context, this is super interesting, because in a
show that's been about racism, him being a hologram is also given
kind of racial characteristics as well, because he's dehumanised.
Like a 2nd glass citizen for those first.
And and we get this stuff in series 7 that you talked about before
where, you know, it's about liberating his people who are
oppressed.
And so having him being treated as fully human.
And just his delight.
Oh my goodness.
Like, I think that Picardo's smile is just ridiculous.
I mean, there was this, you know, they ruined it with that, with
an ugly CGI baby again.
Oh, poor old Roxanne is having to, and and we go out on a laugh
like that's super embarrassing.
Oh, look.
I think Robert Mercado's embarrassed by having to do that little
joke at the end of the episode.
They can't see what the effect looks like.
So they're probably thinking it is very juice.
They're like, oh, it's Nick.
They probably watched the episode and went, oh my god.
Yeah, no, neither actor is particularly comfortable in that final
shot.
But I will say about this.
Um, episode and that is, it is unusual for Voyager to tell like a
character story like this.
And this is like an 11th hour character story as well.
And kind of the last stab to do anything with Tom and Belana.
Whilst it isn't like the best of Trek's run, I do appreciate the
effort because this could have been another space anomaly episode
you know?
Yeah.
But like I said, I think this is a show that's designed around
space anomalies and so I think that it flops to some degree when
it tries to do character drama because that's not what it's set up
to do.
All right, so we are on untitled Star Trek project.com slash
randomiser, ready to choose our next episode.
Joe, which series are we choosing from?
All of them.
Now, we have very much been on a 90s trek run.
We've done a next generation at Deep Space 9 and a Voyager, and
that, that's kind of our era, isn't it, really?
Yeah.
But now we think it's time to take the risk, including the
animated series, including enterprise, including some of those new
ones that you love.
Yeah, to go across the board.
So roll the dice.
All right.
Here goes. pressing the button.
Uh, so it's Star Trek, uh, the next generation.
Okay.
It's...
Oh, it's lower decks, lower deck.
So good.
Now roll it again.
Come on, we can't do another next gen this early.
What if it's a lower decks episode?
That would be hilarious.
Bar association.
I watched that last week.
Deep say Snide.
I know, I know you did.
Can we try and get, can we just try and escape 90s track, please?
I could turn it off.
Yeah, take off the 90s.
We'll take off the 90s.
Okay.
So we are leaving Enterprise on, so we're not going to do a series
that we've done before. fair.
Okay.
All right, let's try that.
I have no idea what this is.
Oh, it's Star Trek Discovery.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
Series 3, episode four.
I said from the most recent episode, the most recent series.
Is that the true one for discovery?
I can't remember.
I don't do episode titles.
What do you think?
Well, I no, I'd love to lean into discovery. just to tell you what
I'm terrible about it.
No, I'm joking.
I mean, to tell you what's great about it.
I'm really looking forward to doing this All right.
I can't remember which one this is because I haven't, I'm not very
good on episode titles of Discovery or indeed anything except Star
Trek, the Next Generation.
I seem to remember the 1st 5 episodes of Series 3 of Discovery
were rather good.
So I think we've got goody here, whichever one it is.
Yeah, yeah.
Forget me not.
It could be Adira and Gray.
I think it's I think it is that one.
Yeah.
The true one.
And it will be our 1st jump into a heavily serialised show as an
individual episode, which will be interesting.
Series 3 is a little bit less serialised than series one and two, I
think.
All right, okay.
In that case, it's forget me not.
Star Trek Discoveries, forget me not.
Series three, episode four.
So I guess you could watch that before our next release.
Let's do it You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project
with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley.
You can find us online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com, where
you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceron, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lab.
This episode was recorded on the 6th of October 2021 and released
on the 19th of November.
We'll see you next time for discoveries forget me not.