WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-01 at 21:03:10

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Hey, Joe. Hi.

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So last time the Randomiser chose for us, an episode of Star Trek

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Voyager, it's series 7, episode 12, uh, and it's called Lineage

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how do you feel about us covering lineage?

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I've watched it 3 times in the last week.

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I don't want to see it again for a little while, if I'm honest.

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I've seen it twice because I'm a professional.

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And yeah, I don't want to see it again.

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If you send me more pictures of that CGI baby. honestly. my god

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we'll get there.

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Come, dear, oh, dear.

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So this was on broadcast in January 2001.

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So we have CGI from January 2001. and it's not the high point of

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CGI and we will definitely get to that.

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I mean, just to put this in context, yeah.

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We've talked about the CGI Babylon 5 before, yeah. and that was

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CGI before this.

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So this is better CGI than Babylon 5, you know.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And Voyager has done some visually impressive things over the past

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few years at this point, I think.

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Like it often looks very good.

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If they're doing those, like, planet escapes and things like

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this.

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Another season 7 episode workforce starts off with a pan across a

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planet and the detail in it is extraordinary.

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But I think there's a lot big difference between creating a

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setting and doing a CGI person at this point.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well I will definitely have things to say about that.

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What's your feeling about Voyager generally?

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Well, I feel like it should be called Star Trek Miss Potential.

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Because I think Voyager has a huge amount of potential and every

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time I watch Caretaker, I think this show had legs, like this cast

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has, it's a good cast on the whole, um, and they're doing

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interesting things with the characters at the beginning and

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they're throwing him off into an unknown part, area of space.

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And then we get 7 years of the next generation, but kind of like

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fake the next generation.

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We've, we've, you know, I'm not going to say the entire run of

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voyagers. shit.

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There are highlights, absolute highlights.

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You know, they poured money into some big epic 2 parters and, you

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know, there's some really fun stuff.

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But as a whole, the premise of being lost in, you know, an

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aerospace and trying to find your way home was completely

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squandered and that's a shame.

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Yeah, I have a feeling that they just went to the Delta Quadrant

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to get out of Deep Space 9s way so that the 2 shows weren't

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affecting one another.

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And it is just the sort of usual procedural that next generation

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and original trek were, and I don't think it has much ambition to

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be more than that.

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What's your personal feeling about Voyager?

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Um, I don't have the kind of nostalgic affection for it that I

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have for Star Trek the Next Generation.

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And I think that means that I'm less blind to its flaws than I am

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next, Jane.

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But there are some good things in it, and the production is really

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great.

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And you say that they don't make a lot of the actual premise and

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that's true, but it does change quite a bit over the 7 year run, I

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think.

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Even if it's just sort of different rubber-faced aliens this year

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or whatever.

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But it does sort of reinvent itself.

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I have a feeling that its politics are a little bit more

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conservative than I like for my Star Trek, but that won't come up

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this episode, I don't think.

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Two things I want to acknowledge that quickly before we go into

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the episode.

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I think this is a stronger cast than the next generation as a

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whole.

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I think that the best cast members of Voyager are better than the

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best cars.

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I think there's better chemistry in the next generation.

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Yeah, yeah.

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We'll get to one of the MVPs of the show.

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For sure, because he plays a massive role in this episode.

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But obviously, your nostalgic love is for Next Generation.

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So you can probably forgive, you know, Gates McFadden and Marina

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service.

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Yeah, vacantly into space for an entire episode. gladly.

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Now, the other thing is, the annoying thing with Voyager is. every

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now and again, right?

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They lean into the idea of the premise.

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So they do scorpion and it's like, 0 my god, we're entering ball

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space.

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And then in the next episode, like, wow, we're out of boards case

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now.

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Like, you know, case pushed us out of that.

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And then in season 6 they do Equinox and they've got a ship that

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went into the Delta Quadrant, exactly the same time as Voyager, and

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they've made all the wrong moves and they've stepped on races to

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get ahead and it's clearly been a much more, and why the hell

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haven't we been watching Star Trek Equinox instead of watching?

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Because that sounds way more interesting.

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And then in series 7, they do the most egregious thing they could

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possibly do, and they do the void where Voyager ends up in this

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strange period of space in the Delta Quadrant, where they have to

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form alliances with all these races for a single episode, and it's

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full of conflicts and space battles, and you're like, well, what

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the hell is this?

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What have we been watching for the last 7 years?

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Sorry, nice bit of a run.

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It's like they know.

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They know what they could be doing.

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And they're not doing it.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And it seems to me to be a deliberate choice to have avoided doing

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things that are serialised and yeah, that's right.

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That's right.

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All right.

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I think we've sold it to everyone now.

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So here we go.

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On Netflix, all 7 seasons.

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Knock yourself out.

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Maybe not by now.

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All right.

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So let's, uh, I'm ready here on the very 1st frame of the episode

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ready to press play, so I'll count us in.

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Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

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It's like a spoon, isn't it, the Voyager?

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I think it looks like a spoon.

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My toilet bowl looks very like Star Trek Voyager, that the

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front...

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Yeah.

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The great tall bowen space.

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Now, clearly, Tom and B'Elana have just had sex in that scene.

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What have you had for breakfast nation?

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I'm not going to even.

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I'm not even gonna answer that.

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And now she's all postcoital over engineering.

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She's in a rare good mood.

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And we will talk a little bit about her temper because I think

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it's interesting.

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She's not often in a good mood, is she?

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She's not often this junior at work.

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So she's going to discover that she's pregnant, but she has

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actually been pregnant before in the run of the show, has she?

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Roxanne Dawson was.

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Yeah.

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And they did that thing of, not right, and it is.

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Putting her in a jumper.

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Against the fan thing of having the, you know, the medical coat on

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or being hidden behind consoles all the time, you know?

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And, you know, her face is twice as large as it normally is, you

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know?

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So I actually think there's the ghost of a more interesting

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episode here where she's inhabited by a parasite.

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Like they they immediately...

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They've never done that before. like the child in series 2 of Star

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Trek the Next Generation.

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But I do like there's a sort of lower decks vibe to them jumping

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to a ludicrous Star Trek explanation for what's going on.

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Okay, this is my 1st favourite bit of this episode.

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And it's all done to Jerry Ryan's performance where each of goes

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I'm detecting another life form and Jerry Ryan's looking around

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the room going, where?

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She's so used to their being, you know, spirits and aliens

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floating about that.

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Okay, I rather like this title sequence.

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I have recently watched it on YouTube in 4K and it looks

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incredible.

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Go and check that out on YouTube.

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It looks amazing.

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I think that this tells the story too.

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You know, like we talked about the DS9 titles last time and, you

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know, the way that the Enterprise whizzes past the camera.

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And so having this just goes slowly.

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Yeah, for a nebula.

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Going for another nebula.

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I mean it's basically Voyager, isn't it?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. essentially.

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That maybe there is the one that turns all the corridors around.

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The next nebula is the one that inhabits people.

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Oh my god.

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I want to say, though.

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I do want to say about Voyager, yeah. is, you know, I probably

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will rip at it quite a lot.

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It is really watchable.

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Like, even the worst episodes are very, it's very entertaining.

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Like, it's kind of switch your brain off a lot the time.

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Yeah.

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And I think that's what it's going for.

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I think that's why people would like to watch it.

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And I think this is the most watched Star Trek show on Netflix, but

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when they brought out the figures for, and I think it's because

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it's like friends.

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You can just sort of put it on, have it on in the background.

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It's kind of comforting.

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You know you're going to get to a nice ending, you know?

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Yeah, yeah.

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I think that's I think that's probably fair.

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And I think maybe to sort of modern viewers, Star Trek, the Next

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Generation looks too old and because it had a couple of dud years

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at the beginning.

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Whereas this is sort of like the floor is the ceiling's not

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particularly high.

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The floor is a bit higher than Star Trek the Next Generation

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probably.

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But this is an interesting episode of Voyager, in Safari, it is

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purely character driven.

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There is, there's nothing kind of science fiction in it's beyond

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her attempting to re-sequence the child later on.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And also I think it has something to say, which it doesn't do in

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the sort of usual kind of metaphorical way so much, and we'll

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definitely get to it.

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I want to start right now by saying how incredibly superb Robert

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Picardo is.

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The best actor on this.

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Probably.

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Yeah. and one of the very, very best actors to ever be in Star

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Trek.

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I just think he is unbelievably good at everything.

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I think it's telling.

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Yeah.

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Very, very telling that they give, so he starts off and he's in

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series one, he's getting the odd scene, the odd comic scene, yeah.

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But by the end, they've built a kind of a narrative into his

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character and he's getting the big hitter episodes, yeah?

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And he's the holographic doctor.

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You've got someone like Jakotay, who's giving a very bland

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performance, and I think they're kind of seeing that, who as the

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show goes on, he just gets forgotten.

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So I think he was rewarded for how good he was as the show went

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on.

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And in the latter half of the series, episodes like Latin image

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lifeline, critical care, author author.

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They have phenomenal Star Trek episodes and they're very, very

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good because Robert Picardo is, you know, spearheading them.

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Yeah.

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No, for me, he's up there with Doug Jones among the pantheon of

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the very, very best people ever to be in Star.

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Oh, come on, that's Saru.

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Oh, I don't know about Discovery.

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You know that.

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Honestly, Jason, the way information, I'm afraid.

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Oh, God, here we go.

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So, okay, so we're about to head into them saying, right, we're

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going to keep this on the down low.

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We're not going to tell anyone.

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I'm going to laugh.

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And of course, this is Bloody Voyager.

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They're not going to keep this a secret for 2 minutes.

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But also it's like a cheesy, low hanging gag as well. like a now

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we walk into the mess hall and everyone's applauding.

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It's so cheesy.

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You just don't want Neelix to know anything about anything because

252
00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:26.940
you know he's going to, you know, anything he knows about, the

253
00:12:26.940 --> 00:12:29.820
tradition, your birthday, he's going to have a party in that mess

254
00:12:29.820 --> 00:12:31.559
hole themed around it, don't you?

255
00:12:32.220 --> 00:12:35.100
So here's a secret confession.

256
00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:37.620
I really quite like Neelix.

257
00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:43.379
And I think that Ethan Phillips is very good at what he's given to

258
00:12:43.379 --> 00:12:43.679
do.

259
00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:47.399
It's such a shame that we have to end that podcast here then, but

260
00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:49.139
bye, everybody.

261
00:12:49.620 --> 00:12:54.659
I mean, he's got stupid hair and his face is covered in latex and

262
00:12:54.659 --> 00:12:55.080
whatever.

263
00:12:55.139 --> 00:12:58.980
They've meshed together the worst of every Star Trek aliens.

264
00:12:59.039 --> 00:12:59.700
What?

265
00:12:59.700 --> 00:13:00.659
Crazy hair.

266
00:13:00.779 --> 00:13:04.200
Weird bridges. teeth.

267
00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:06.840
What look were they going for?

268
00:13:06.899 --> 00:13:09.480
It's like the sick doctor's coat in Doctor Who.

269
00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:11.220
It's like the worst possible taste.

270
00:13:11.700 --> 00:13:14.039
He can be very charming, though.

271
00:13:14.100 --> 00:13:14.519
I get that.

272
00:13:14.580 --> 00:13:15.419
He can be incredible.

273
00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:15.840
Yeah.

274
00:13:15.899 --> 00:13:20.759
You know, like once they dump the whole, you know, anxious about

275
00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:24.899
dating Kess thing, which was just hideously embarrassing and

276
00:13:24.899 --> 00:13:28.200
impossible to watch, I think he's pretty good.

277
00:13:28.259 --> 00:13:32.759
And I remember Benson, when I was a kid, where he and Renee

278
00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:36.120
Aubourginois were on a sitcom together, for God's sake.

279
00:13:36.179 --> 00:13:39.299
I mean, unless, I mean, let's not pretend you can't be fucking

280
00:13:39.299 --> 00:13:40.620
annoying as well at times.

281
00:13:41.700 --> 00:13:43.500
But they're writing him to be annoying.

282
00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:46.919
And so I think it's a meteoric success on Ethan Phillips's part

283
00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:49.200
that he can sometimes be charming.

284
00:13:49.259 --> 00:13:50.220
Yeah.

285
00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:54.000
Oh, no, it's Harry Kim, the walking cardboard of Star Trek

286
00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:54.539
Voyager.

287
00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:58.559
Oh, and this, I mean, again, this conversation is so boring.

288
00:13:58.620 --> 00:14:02.159
You know, it's a conversation about, don't you think?

289
00:14:02.220 --> 00:14:06.720
Like, oh, you know, you'll have a child and then you'll lose all

290
00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:09.960
your friends and could anything be more trite and less

291
00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:10.440
interesting?

292
00:14:10.500 --> 00:14:12.960
You're in a fucking spaceship, guys.

293
00:14:13.019 --> 00:14:14.039
You know, like...

294
00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:17.279
This is this is the Miles and Julian Voyager.

295
00:14:17.340 --> 00:14:19.379
This is the bromance of Star Trek Voyager.

296
00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:22.379
It is about 100th as interesting.

297
00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:24.059
Yeah, yeah.

298
00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:25.080
And you know why it is?

299
00:14:25.139 --> 00:14:28.980
It's because it's not Colin Meaney and Alexander Siddig.

300
00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:30.720
It's Robert, what's his name?

301
00:14:30.779 --> 00:14:33.059
Robert Duncan McNeil and Garrett Wang.

302
00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:35.340
And frankly, you know, sorry guys, I know you have your own

303
00:14:35.340 --> 00:14:35.820
podcast.

304
00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:37.440
They're not very good actors.

305
00:14:37.860 --> 00:14:40.080
Garrett Wang's pretty though.

306
00:14:40.259 --> 00:14:45.419
Well, yeah, well, you weren't married to an Asian man, so but he

307
00:14:45.419 --> 00:14:46.200
is very pretty, yes.

308
00:14:47.159 --> 00:14:53.100
Oh, so now this is, I quite like this scene where, um, Chewbok

309
00:14:53.100 --> 00:14:55.080
doesn't even look up from his work that says, oh, well

310
00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:55.620
congratulations.

311
00:14:55.679 --> 00:14:57.659
He's the one person who doesn't know because he doesn't listen to

312
00:14:57.659 --> 00:14:58.799
gossip on Voyager.

313
00:14:58.860 --> 00:14:59.759
Yeah, yeah.

314
00:14:59.820 --> 00:15:03.539
But again, this scene is incredibly boring and doesn't go

315
00:15:03.539 --> 00:15:04.019
anywhere.

316
00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:07.620
And like, can it possibly go anywhere?

317
00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:13.320
The baby actually gets born when, um, when in the final episode

318
00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:14.519
when they reach Earth.

319
00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:16.919
So we never see him actually being a parent.

320
00:15:16.980 --> 00:15:19.320
Yeah, we go. lost potential again.

321
00:15:19.379 --> 00:15:20.340
They could have had the baby.

322
00:15:20.340 --> 00:15:22.980
Yeah, maybe we take a start, Klingon pregnancies are very quick

323
00:15:22.980 --> 00:15:25.860
and they have the baby within a couple of episodes and then we

324
00:15:25.860 --> 00:15:26.700
deal with the fallout.

325
00:15:26.700 --> 00:15:30.299
Yeah, because we know Klingon childhoods are incredibly quick from

326
00:15:30.299 --> 00:15:31.019
Alexander.

327
00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:32.220
Yeah exactly.

328
00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:35.639
They're just adults instantly.

329
00:15:35.700 --> 00:15:39.299
But yeah, no, this, I think this is a sort of contractual

330
00:15:39.299 --> 00:15:40.259
obligation scene.

331
00:15:40.379 --> 00:15:42.360
We've got to give Tim Russ something to do.

332
00:15:42.419 --> 00:15:46.679
And I also think that Tim Russ is a pretty strong performer as

333
00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:46.860
well.

334
00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:51.960
I think he was given material worthy of him once a year, which is

335
00:15:51.960 --> 00:15:53.580
very annoying. you know.

336
00:15:53.639 --> 00:15:56.820
He's very often at his console saying, you know, they're firing at

337
00:15:56.820 --> 00:15:57.840
us, you know, and things like that.

338
00:15:57.899 --> 00:16:00.899
The Councillor Troy, but the tactical version.

339
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:03.480
It's easy to forget that he's there.

340
00:16:03.539 --> 00:16:04.080
I think.

341
00:16:04.139 --> 00:16:06.419
But I think he is...

342
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:09.299
I know it's not a website, but you remember Mald, where he, my

343
00:16:09.299 --> 00:16:12.539
Mald, where Brad Dorff, and he becomes like a serial killer.

344
00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:14.700
He's fucking terrifying in that.

345
00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:15.600
Yeah.

346
00:16:15.659 --> 00:16:18.720
Instead, he's having to do sort of tedious Vulcan acting here

347
00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:19.559
which is a bit bad.

348
00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:22.320
Imagine if in that episode there was some like latent serial

349
00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:24.659
killer in him that ran through the rest of the city. that would

350
00:16:24.659 --> 00:16:26.279
have been very interesting Yeah, yeah.

351
00:16:26.340 --> 00:16:28.620
He could just pick off the occasional person in the mess.

352
00:16:28.860 --> 00:16:30.419
Here we go.

353
00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:33.779
She's she's annoyed now because she's like, oh, Janeway is

354
00:16:33.779 --> 00:16:35.940
practically relieved me of command because I'm pregnant.

355
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:41.399
We didn't even talk about that scene, but I think that Janeway is

356
00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:44.399
so incredibly warm in that scene.

357
00:16:44.460 --> 00:16:46.200
It's absolutely lovely.

358
00:16:46.259 --> 00:16:51.179
Kate Mulgrew is... she's an unsung hero of the show.

359
00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:51.840
She's not really.

360
00:16:51.899 --> 00:16:53.159
People do sing her praises.

361
00:16:53.220 --> 00:16:58.259
I think that Kate Mulgrew is terrific in Star Trek Voyager, and I

362
00:16:58.259 --> 00:17:01.620
think Captain Janeway is written terribly.

363
00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:03.120
And take of that what you will.

364
00:17:03.179 --> 00:17:06.539
She does her best with some pretty chonky material throughout the

365
00:17:06.539 --> 00:17:06.839
run.

366
00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:10.619
Yeah, but I think that there's no real kind of, I mean, I don't

367
00:17:10.619 --> 00:17:16.140
know before, like, we've talked about this before, um, but Tom

368
00:17:16.140 --> 00:17:21.119
Paris really has kind of, like, just a sort of bundle of

369
00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:25.559
uninteresting characteristics, but, you know, I think.

370
00:17:25.619 --> 00:17:26.519
I think he started well.

371
00:17:26.579 --> 00:17:29.039
I think in that 1st episode where he's in the penal colony and

372
00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:32.700
then he goes and he's got history with Chakotay, and there's a lot

373
00:17:32.700 --> 00:17:33.359
of tension with him.

374
00:17:33.420 --> 00:17:36.059
And in series 2, where they're trying to pretend that he's like a

375
00:17:36.059 --> 00:17:38.519
rebel in the course. and it's all a big fan.

376
00:17:38.579 --> 00:17:39.420
That's really interesting.

377
00:17:39.539 --> 00:17:41.880
And then from free onwards, he just becomes kind of like, you know

378
00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:42.779
your Starfleet guy.

379
00:17:42.900 --> 00:17:44.160
Yeah.

380
00:17:44.220 --> 00:17:44.880
Yeah.

381
00:17:44.940 --> 00:17:49.079
And let's not forget the thing that they do, you know, 3 times a

382
00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:51.839
season when they want to do like a quirky episode and that's Tom

383
00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:52.440
Paris.

384
00:17:52.500 --> 00:17:55.259
Oh my god, I'm absolutely obsessed with cartoons.

385
00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:56.400
I'm absolutely attracted.

386
00:17:57.180 --> 00:18:01.079
Yeah, whatever it is, they were like, oh, aren't you an expert in

387
00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:02.339
20th century fashion?

388
00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:03.960
Oh, I just...

389
00:18:04.019 --> 00:18:05.279
Very strange.

390
00:18:05.339 --> 00:18:10.079
And again, this whole conversation here that we've just had is

391
00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:12.720
also just ridiculous and doesn't make any sense.

392
00:18:12.779 --> 00:18:15.839
I mean, presumably they've been pregnant for like a couple of

393
00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:19.740
hours as far as they're aware, and they're already sick of people

394
00:18:19.740 --> 00:18:20.819
offering them advice.

395
00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:22.380
It's all just infected.

396
00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:24.420
I mean, by the end of the episode, the baby's kicking.

397
00:18:24.539 --> 00:18:28.440
So I'm assuming we're quite far along already. 7 weeks.

398
00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:34.799
Now look at look at Robert Picardo here. where he's accidentally

399
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:35.940
given the game away.

400
00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:39.420
It's like he's comic timing and his sort of silly.

401
00:18:39.539 --> 00:18:42.599
You cannot infer that from what I said.

402
00:18:42.660 --> 00:18:45.839
Please don't delete my sub routines, banana.

403
00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:53.160
I actually think that he gets the best scene in the episode and

404
00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:56.279
we'll get there because I think that there's an astoundingly good

405
00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:56.700
scene.

406
00:18:56.759 --> 00:18:57.480
I agree with you.

407
00:18:57.539 --> 00:19:00.000
I think it comes right at the end of the episode, if we're talking

408
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:00.539
about the same scene.

409
00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:06.059
But, um, I think with Voyage as well, the cast, um, there is such

410
00:19:06.059 --> 00:19:09.119
a difference between the strongest members and the weakest

411
00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:09.599
members.

412
00:19:09.660 --> 00:19:13.500
It's high, like it's a dramatic kind of difference between the

413
00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:13.740
two.

414
00:19:13.859 --> 00:19:16.619
And you just have to watch this scene and see Robert Kardo

415
00:19:16.619 --> 00:19:16.980
acting.

416
00:19:16.980 --> 00:19:19.140
And Robert Bunker, Neil acting.

417
00:19:19.380 --> 00:19:22.200
We're in 2 different worlds, aren't we?

418
00:19:22.259 --> 00:19:23.099
Yeah.

419
00:19:23.099 --> 00:19:28.680
Yeah, I mean, I think, um, I think B'Alana's a little bit one note

420
00:19:28.680 --> 00:19:34.859
as a character, but I do think that, um, as an actor, yeah, she's

421
00:19:34.859 --> 00:19:35.519
got a lot of charm.

422
00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:39.420
And when they give her an episode. like you look at remember in

423
00:19:39.420 --> 00:19:41.940
series three, the Holocaust episode where she's playing.

424
00:19:42.059 --> 00:19:43.680
She is phenomenally good.

425
00:19:43.740 --> 00:19:45.059
If they stretch her.

426
00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:46.200
She's very good.

427
00:19:46.740 --> 00:19:48.119
Yeah.

428
00:19:48.180 --> 00:19:52.259
Here, like I'm not sold on how she behaves here.

429
00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:53.640
No, me.

430
00:19:53.700 --> 00:19:55.200
Oh, and here we go.

431
00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:56.400
The CGI baby.

432
00:19:56.460 --> 00:19:58.140
Oh, it's so beautiful.

433
00:19:58.200 --> 00:19:59.940
It's fucking hideous.

434
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:02.460
It's really really horrible.

435
00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:09.839
And that's not, I'm not being racist about Klingon human baking.

436
00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:15.240
No, no, it's just an ugly CG pixel baby.

437
00:20:15.299 --> 00:20:16.259
It's horrible.

438
00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:20.460
Do you remember Covenant in DS9 series 7 where they went to the

439
00:20:20.460 --> 00:20:22.680
other extreme and they had the animatronic baby?

440
00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:26.640
And the hedge was going, yep, yep, yep.

441
00:20:26.700 --> 00:20:28.140
It was really terrible.

442
00:20:28.859 --> 00:20:32.220
So I don't know, maybe the CGO is a better approach.

443
00:20:32.339 --> 00:20:33.119
It was a better choice.

444
00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:35.940
Or they could have just addressed a dog up to look like a baby.

445
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:39.839
Mark and I, Mark and I wrote said the thing wouldn't bloody, like

446
00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:40.200
stop.

447
00:20:40.259 --> 00:20:41.759
And then head was just going crazy.

448
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.039
I was probably possessed.

449
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:48.839
Oh, they had a nice comfy bed there in their clothes.

450
00:20:48.900 --> 00:20:49.440
They do.

451
00:20:49.500 --> 00:20:53.220
Why don't they have like space space blankets like on the

452
00:20:53.220 --> 00:20:53.700
Enterprise?

453
00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:57.480
No, because in DS9, They've got those horrible space cushions

454
00:20:57.480 --> 00:20:58.980
those kind of gray cushions.

455
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:00.779
I'd much rather have a bed like this.

456
00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:01.500
Oh, no.

457
00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:05.039
Okay, so here we are in the stock standard Star Trek forest number

458
00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:05.279
three.

459
00:21:05.339 --> 00:21:07.680
Oh my god, it's so bad.

460
00:21:07.740 --> 00:21:10.619
It's like a soap opera, like a daytime soap opera.

461
00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:14.220
We can't afford to go outside, so we're just going on a camping

462
00:21:14.220 --> 00:21:16.859
trip to a TV studio.

463
00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:18.660
It's super miserable.

464
00:21:18.779 --> 00:21:21.539
I mean, the lighting, they've got good at the lighting from Star

465
00:21:21.539 --> 00:21:24.000
Trek, the next generation, and so the lighting isn't too bad.

466
00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:25.440
It's kind of fuzzy.

467
00:21:25.500 --> 00:21:26.759
Is that because it's a flashback?

468
00:21:26.940 --> 00:21:32.220
Yeah, I think that there's a kind of sort of glowy light theme

469
00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:32.880
original series.

470
00:21:32.940 --> 00:21:35.640
Well, you know, when you look at a female character and it goes

471
00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:38.880
kind of romantically fuzzy and then and then it goes very sharp

472
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:41.099
when you go back to them and, this looks like that, that's all

473
00:21:41.099 --> 00:21:41.460
weird.

474
00:21:41.579 --> 00:21:44.339
Yeah, I think they've done that to make it a flashback.

475
00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:45.779
Everything's slightly glowy.

476
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:48.299
Now, what's interesting, isn't he?

477
00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:49.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

478
00:21:49.980 --> 00:21:51.000
Oh no, he really is.

479
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:59.339
What I think is interesting, right, is that B'lana is half Klingon

480
00:21:59.339 --> 00:22:04.859
but her family, her human family, so her father, like she's a

481
00:22:04.859 --> 00:22:06.059
Latina woman, isn't she?

482
00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:10.019
So she's, yeah, and it's in her name, yeah.

483
00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:14.640
Um, like, you know, Torres, her last name is clearly sort of

484
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:15.299
Spanish.

485
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:20.759
Um, and so there is a sort of weird thing in which the Klingon

486
00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:26.640
thing with the irrational anger and stuff is a little bit of a

487
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:29.759
stand in for that because I think that...

488
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:31.380
I think that's a bit cheap and a bit obvious.

489
00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:35.759
It is a little bit obvious, but what it didn't enables this

490
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:41.940
episode to do is to be about what it's like to grow up as a member

491
00:22:41.940 --> 00:22:45.420
of a minority, like a racial minority.

492
00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:50.099
And we don't neither of us know what it's like.

493
00:22:50.099 --> 00:22:57.240
Um, and, um, but there's all sorts of things here that ring really

494
00:22:57.240 --> 00:22:58.619
true.

495
00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:02.460
And, you know, we'll get to it, I think.

496
00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:06.720
But I just think that it's super interesting.

497
00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:13.559
And so her response is dismissed by her father and to some degree

498
00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:15.720
by Tom Paris as well.

499
00:23:15.779 --> 00:23:18.000
Yeah, who is a white man.

500
00:23:18.059 --> 00:23:21.420
Towards the end of the episode, he's the one that kind of endorses

501
00:23:21.420 --> 00:23:26.759
her and the baby and the writing kind of confirms that, you know

502
00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:29.460
like he's the one saying, you know, you're okay as you are, the

503
00:23:29.460 --> 00:23:30.119
baby's okay.

504
00:23:30.180 --> 00:23:32.160
But it's a white man saying that to her, you know?

505
00:23:32.220 --> 00:23:33.180
Yeah, yeah.

506
00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:35.339
But what I think is interesting.

507
00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:40.440
So, so this, that, the other thing here too is that this is kind

508
00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:44.099
of a bit crap, this sort of flashback B plot.

509
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:45.299
It's very kind of whatever.

510
00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:50.640
But what's interesting is I think we already know that this is

511
00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:54.839
going to be a sort of experience of racism thing because she's

512
00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:59.339
dismayed that the baby will have the racial characteristics that

513
00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:01.859
she was teased for as a child, right?

514
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:06.119
Now we see this where she's being fed a worm by these other kids.

515
00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:07.980
But do you know what?

516
00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:10.140
I don't think the 2 correlate well.

517
00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:14.160
Because the idea is the father saying, oh, you know, I can't

518
00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:18.119
handle her being a Klingon and then walking out on their lives and

519
00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:22.259
her re-sequencing her baby to have no...

520
00:24:22.380 --> 00:24:23.460
It's just so exciting.

521
00:24:23.460 --> 00:24:24.839
Yeah, yeah.

522
00:24:24.900 --> 00:24:28.079
I feel like that could have worked if it had been a little

523
00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:28.799
subtler.

524
00:24:28.859 --> 00:24:30.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

525
00:24:30.779 --> 00:24:33.000
But, I mean, it is Star Trek, and so it's going to be sort of

526
00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:35.279
absurd. to some degree.

527
00:24:35.339 --> 00:24:37.079
I've got a question for you then.

528
00:24:37.140 --> 00:24:37.799
Yeah.

529
00:24:37.859 --> 00:24:41.519
Is her wanting to re-sequence the baby and remove...

530
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:45.000
Is that like the most racist act in all of Star Trek?

531
00:24:45.299 --> 00:24:53.819
But I think, I mean, it's kind of dealt with slightly in in faces

532
00:24:53.819 --> 00:24:54.119
isn't it?

533
00:24:54.180 --> 00:24:57.180
Which I only have a sort of vague memory of where the 2 halves of

534
00:24:57.180 --> 00:25:00.240
them are split into a human and a Klingon. about subtlety, yeah.

535
00:25:00.299 --> 00:25:01.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

536
00:25:02.579 --> 00:25:04.259
But here.

537
00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:07.319
So have a look at this too, because you might be right, because

538
00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:13.380
look, that's sort of 12-year-old, you know, baby. very prissy

539
00:25:13.380 --> 00:25:13.920
isn't she?

540
00:25:13.980 --> 00:25:15.000
Yeah, yeah.

541
00:25:15.059 --> 00:25:19.740
But when she re-sequences her DNA, and she's got dark hair and

542
00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:23.700
dark eyes because her mother's Latina, she's blonde, isn't she?

543
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:31.319
And she's blonde when, so, you know, like I've heard stories of, of

544
00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:36.839
people disliking members of sort of my minority racial groups

545
00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:40.440
disliking some features that they have that set them apart, you

546
00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:44.160
know, like black women, black women getting comfortable with their

547
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:48.720
natural hair, um, you know, stuff like that, people being dismayed

548
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:52.259
by the things that set them apart, and that's what she's

549
00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:55.259
experiencing here, even though they're stupid sort of Klingon

550
00:25:55.259 --> 00:25:56.099
ridges or whatever.

551
00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:59.519
But I do think the fact that the baby goes from being dark-haired

552
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:01.440
to blonde is kind of...

553
00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:02.579
Very telling, doesn't it?

554
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:07.259
But I think you're giving this a smarter reading than what's in

555
00:26:07.259 --> 00:26:07.799
the writing here.

556
00:26:07.859 --> 00:26:10.740
No, I think it's actually present.

557
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:12.480
I think that that's what they're trying to do.

558
00:26:12.539 --> 00:26:18.000
And you and I, before we started recording, talked about how

559
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:23.519
Roxanne Dawson felt about this episode and how moved she was by

560
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:23.759
it.

561
00:26:23.819 --> 00:26:25.559
Move to tea, she says.

562
00:26:25.619 --> 00:26:26.519
Yeah, yeah.

563
00:26:26.579 --> 00:26:31.619
And it is that thing about, um, remember, she's a mother at this

564
00:26:31.619 --> 00:26:32.099
point as well.

565
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:33.180
So she could have been talking about it.

566
00:26:33.299 --> 00:26:33.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

567
00:26:34.019 --> 00:26:34.859
All of that, you know.

568
00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:37.500
But she's not a white woman.

569
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:43.079
Like she has presumably experienced some form of racism as a child

570
00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:51.000
and some sort of, you know, like some anxiety about being a member

571
00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:53.819
of a sort of minority racial group and the way that you get

572
00:26:53.819 --> 00:26:54.299
treated.

573
00:26:54.359 --> 00:26:58.019
And initially I thought that it was just the gark thing with the

574
00:26:58.019 --> 00:27:00.599
you know, putting the worm on her sandwich that this was going to

575
00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:00.960
be about.

576
00:27:01.019 --> 00:27:04.980
But it actually does take a turn and it is a little bit more

577
00:27:04.980 --> 00:27:06.480
convincingly terrible than that.

578
00:27:06.539 --> 00:27:11.880
So this is leaning sensitively into race then.

579
00:27:12.059 --> 00:27:16.200
Why doesn't this have the profound impact of something like far

580
00:27:16.200 --> 00:27:20.579
beyond the stars, which, you know, when you...

581
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:24.480
Like the last scene where Avery Brooks breaks down in front of

582
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:28.200
everybody, it is unforgettable, isn't it?

583
00:27:28.259 --> 00:27:30.000
Whereas this, you know, were you going to remember this next

584
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:30.240
week?

585
00:27:30.299 --> 00:27:34.440
No, probably not, but it is, and it is making it more palatable by

586
00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:37.500
having it be about Klingons, whereas, you know, far beyond the

587
00:27:37.500 --> 00:27:42.119
stars is about a black man, you know, in America in the 50s or

588
00:27:42.119 --> 00:27:42.539
whatever.

589
00:27:42.539 --> 00:27:44.519
Um, is it the 50s?

590
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:45.180
I'm not sure.

591
00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:47.700
But um, in the 20th century anyway.

592
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:49.859
What you're saying is that they're doing something interesting

593
00:27:49.859 --> 00:27:53.640
with the idea of race, but it's not doing anything, especially

594
00:27:53.640 --> 00:27:54.480
engaging with it.

595
00:27:54.539 --> 00:28:02.099
Well, I think that what's interesting is that both Tom and her

596
00:28:02.099 --> 00:28:05.819
father tell her she needs to be less sensitive.

597
00:28:05.819 --> 00:28:11.759
And her father compares the racism she experiences at school with

598
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:16.680
him being made fun of for falling asleep in class, right?

599
00:28:16.740 --> 00:28:20.819
And she says it's not like that and he doesn't believe her.

600
00:28:20.940 --> 00:28:22.799
And Tom at one point.

601
00:28:22.859 --> 00:28:24.240
Yeah, here.

602
00:28:24.299 --> 00:28:30.180
She's explaining what it felt like to her and he, a white man, is

603
00:28:30.180 --> 00:28:33.180
saying that's not going to be our daughter's experience.

604
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:33.839
I know that.

605
00:28:33.900 --> 00:28:36.539
And the thing is that he can't possibly know.

606
00:28:36.599 --> 00:28:37.619
How could he know?

607
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:39.359
And so her feelings.

608
00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:42.119
Yeah, she keeps saying, you don't understand what it's like.

609
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:45.240
And he's inclined to make it okay.

610
00:28:45.299 --> 00:28:50.640
Well, do you think then, obviously, you and I are both white men

611
00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:54.299
do you think a person of colour watching this?

612
00:28:54.359 --> 00:28:57.240
Could, you know, we both said, after we watched it, someone, that

613
00:28:57.240 --> 00:28:59.819
was a little bit tedious, it was a bit pat, you know, blah, blah

614
00:28:59.819 --> 00:29:03.420
would watch this and actually would be moved by it.

615
00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:06.539
Well, I don't know, but I did, I found that the most interesting

616
00:29:06.539 --> 00:29:11.220
part of the episode was the way we dealt with racism.

617
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:12.779
And Jama is a person of colour.

618
00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:14.160
Jam with reviews online.

619
00:29:14.220 --> 00:29:16.380
And I think he's one of the biggest trek reviewers online.

620
00:29:16.500 --> 00:29:21.720
He loved this. and thought it was very hard hitting and very

621
00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:22.200
moving.

622
00:29:22.500 --> 00:29:24.839
So maybe there is something in that.

623
00:29:24.900 --> 00:29:27.059
Yeah, well, I love to see it.

624
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:29.039
Sorry, sorry to take you away from race.

625
00:29:29.099 --> 00:29:32.099
This bit where I love the way Janeway can cut straight to the

626
00:29:32.099 --> 00:29:32.759
point sometimes.

627
00:29:32.819 --> 00:29:36.000
She's basically, I sort shit out. sort your marriage out. okay?

628
00:29:36.059 --> 00:29:38.880
I'm not getting involved and just awesome out.

629
00:29:38.940 --> 00:29:42.720
I'm in awe of the way she gets up out of the chair in a minute.

630
00:29:42.779 --> 00:29:43.380
It's so great.

631
00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:45.359
She's just so good.

632
00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:47.099
It always looks so fabulous, doesn't it?

633
00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:48.359
came on through, honestly.

634
00:29:48.420 --> 00:29:49.740
When they let her have it down.

635
00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:52.259
Obviously, it was like the Avery Brooks effect in series one for 3

636
00:29:52.259 --> 00:29:55.319
when they force her to have it tied back in a very masculine way.

637
00:29:55.380 --> 00:30:00.299
Oh, no, she has a sort of French curl like Richie Cunningham's

638
00:30:00.299 --> 00:30:00.599
mother.

639
00:30:00.660 --> 00:30:01.500
I really liked it.

640
00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:03.000
When it comes down, I love it.

641
00:30:03.059 --> 00:30:05.819
And then you know when it's gone to shit in like year of hell

642
00:30:05.819 --> 00:30:08.700
because it's all over the place and in disarray, you know?

643
00:30:10.259 --> 00:30:16.380
And see, look here is Tom dismissing her feelings about, you know

644
00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:17.099
which...

645
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:18.480
Oh, I hate this line.

646
00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:21.000
Oh, it's not just some kind of hormonal outburst.

647
00:30:21.059 --> 00:30:22.740
That's such a get up.

648
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:24.180
Look at her getting up out of the chair.

649
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:26.519
How grateful was that?

650
00:30:26.819 --> 00:30:29.160
She's such a demon.

651
00:30:29.220 --> 00:30:30.720
There you go. sorting this out.

652
00:30:30.779 --> 00:30:31.619
It's marital.

653
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:32.279
Get out.

654
00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:35.700
Although she does it in a very sensitive way, you know?

655
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:41.519
I actually think that, you know, there are problems with the way

656
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:45.539
that she's characterised and stuff, but I like how properly tough

657
00:30:45.539 --> 00:30:46.079
she is.

658
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:49.980
And she's the 1st female captain, you know, and I think the 1st

659
00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:51.779
woman to helm a Star Trek show.

660
00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:55.140
It's only happened since one time, hasn't it?

661
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:55.799
Oh, maybe true.

662
00:30:55.859 --> 00:31:00.539
It's very interesting because I think Mulgrew can be scarier and

663
00:31:00.539 --> 00:31:03.180
more authoritative than Avery Brooks.

664
00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:07.500
And I think Avery Brooks can be gentler and more like paternal

665
00:31:07.500 --> 00:31:09.119
than Mulgrew.

666
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:11.220
And you know, you wouldn't think that would be the case with those

667
00:31:11.220 --> 00:31:11.700
2 actors.

668
00:31:12.420 --> 00:31:14.460
Oh, no, here we go.

669
00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:17.819
So now Tom Harris has been basically kicked out of his house.

670
00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:19.500
So he's off to Harry Kitten's house.

671
00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:21.660
And this has happened a few times throughout the run where Harry

672
00:31:21.660 --> 00:31:24.000
Kim is playing his saxophone because apparently that makes sense

673
00:31:24.119 --> 00:31:24.839
for a week?

674
00:31:24.900 --> 00:31:25.920
Like, what's with that bag?

675
00:31:25.980 --> 00:31:29.160
Why do they think that that saxophone makes hurricane

676
00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:29.579
interesting?

677
00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:32.400
I think they're trying to do the Riker thing because Riker

678
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:33.240
plays...

679
00:31:33.299 --> 00:31:34.319
What about the clarinet?

680
00:31:34.380 --> 00:31:35.759
No, no, no.

681
00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:39.779
So Harry played the clarinet originally and then branched out to

682
00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:40.559
the saxophone.

683
00:31:40.619 --> 00:31:41.339
Oh, right.

684
00:31:41.339 --> 00:31:42.240
I could place the trombone.

685
00:31:42.299 --> 00:31:42.839
Trumpet.

686
00:31:42.900 --> 00:31:43.440
Yeah.

687
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:43.920
Trombone.

688
00:31:43.980 --> 00:31:44.579
Yeah.

689
00:31:44.579 --> 00:31:45.539
Yeah.

690
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:48.900
But this is just like absolute sitcom bullshit.

691
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:51.119
It's so played and so tried.

692
00:31:51.240 --> 00:31:55.680
It's like Darren Stevens being zapped downstairs to the couch in

693
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:56.880
bewitched, you know?

694
00:31:56.940 --> 00:31:58.740
It's some...

695
00:31:58.740 --> 00:32:01.559
And I hate to keep making the comparisons and I know I do this.

696
00:32:01.619 --> 00:32:06.359
This is the sort of scene they would ace India Snide with the

697
00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:10.079
fully formed characters and, you know, better actors.

698
00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:12.000
This scene would sing.

699
00:32:12.059 --> 00:32:16.799
I've seen scene. the great scene between Julian and Miles when

700
00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:19.680
Keiko's coming over and they've got clear the crap out of their

701
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:23.160
bachelor pad before she gets home and it's hilarious, you know?

702
00:32:23.460 --> 00:32:30.539
You see, I think because Voyager is just procedural, like um, Star

703
00:32:30.539 --> 00:32:34.619
Trek and Star Trek, the Next Generation, and and Deep Say sign is

704
00:32:34.619 --> 00:32:35.519
the 1st one that isn't.

705
00:32:35.579 --> 00:32:39.240
You know, this is we go to a planet, we encounter a space problem

706
00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:40.859
and we solve it.

707
00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:45.119
And so that doesn't require detail characterisation beyond what

708
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:48.180
people are competent at, particularly if the characters aren't

709
00:32:48.180 --> 00:32:50.099
going to disagree with one another very much.

710
00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:54.359
I would agree with what you're saying there, but the doctor and 7

711
00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:57.960
of 9 have a very distinct character arc.

712
00:32:58.019 --> 00:32:59.279
They can do it.

713
00:32:59.339 --> 00:33:01.799
They just choose not to do it with Harry.

714
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:02.940
No, that's right.

715
00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:04.380
Neelix.

716
00:33:04.500 --> 00:33:07.859
When we don't have a space problem this week, the show founders

717
00:33:07.859 --> 00:33:09.359
it's got nothing to fall back on.

718
00:33:09.420 --> 00:33:13.500
Whereas House of Quark isn't a space problem episode, really.

719
00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:14.039
Is it?

720
00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:18.240
It's like a sitcom, hilarious, you know, it's almond Clark.

721
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:23.220
Yeah, Clark tells lies and gets himself into bother kind of gag.

722
00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:27.960
And Deep Space 9 can cope with that, but I think Voyager falls.

723
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:30.839
Look at the signs where we've perked up during this so far when

724
00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:34.920
Kate Mulgra was on screen when Jerry Ryan was on screen.

725
00:33:34.980 --> 00:33:37.859
It's not any of the main actors that are taking part in this

726
00:33:37.859 --> 00:33:38.519
episode, is it?

727
00:33:38.579 --> 00:33:39.660
No.

728
00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:41.940
So it's like luck of the draw from weeks to week.

729
00:33:42.059 --> 00:33:43.980
Is this going to be about one of the good actors, right?

730
00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:45.900
you might be well characterised then.

731
00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:50.160
Yeah, so here's the here's the bit that I was talking about before

732
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:54.839
where little B'Elana explains to her dad about the racism she

733
00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:56.940
experiences and he dismisses it.

734
00:33:58.740 --> 00:34:02.339
So he's an asshole, I think, is...

735
00:34:02.339 --> 00:34:06.180
Yeah, but I don't think the episode is characterising him as an

736
00:34:06.180 --> 00:34:08.219
asshole, and I don't think...

737
00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:08.880
Do you think?

738
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:10.199
I don't think it's hard enough then.

739
00:34:10.260 --> 00:34:14.219
I think the episode is kind of being written by a white man.

740
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.280
Like, I don't know.

741
00:34:17.340 --> 00:34:19.139
It's um, I don't know who it is.

742
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:20.219
It's James Carn.

743
00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:22.619
I don't know. possibly not.

744
00:34:23.340 --> 00:34:27.539
I wanted to talk very quickly about Tom and B'Elana and their

745
00:34:27.539 --> 00:34:28.019
relationship.

746
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:31.800
Because it is, is it the only relationship?

747
00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:34.199
In the entire run, I think it is.

748
00:34:34.260 --> 00:34:38.039
And it only hits in, so they have Tom Paris throughout, series one

749
00:34:38.039 --> 00:34:41.639
to 3 trying to bed, what, Kiz and the Delaney sisters and anyone

750
00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:42.900
he can find, you know?

751
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:43.980
The lady sisters.

752
00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:44.940
They turn up.

753
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:47.519
Do you remember when they turn off in their chaotic program?

754
00:34:47.579 --> 00:34:51.780
It's very funny that's right One of the rare examples of them

755
00:34:51.780 --> 00:34:52.380
paying something off.

756
00:34:52.500 --> 00:34:56.280
And then in series 4, they decided, no, we're going to pair up Tom

757
00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:57.179
and Belana.

758
00:34:57.239 --> 00:34:59.519
And it's an interesting idea and they're very different

759
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:00.539
characters.

760
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:06.840
But, It's all very sitcom. all of the time, and it's never got

761
00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:10.019
much depth to it, and I don't know if it's the actors, I don't

762
00:35:10.019 --> 00:35:12.360
know if it's the writing, but it's all, you know, in series 4

763
00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:15.360
they're like kind of in corridors, snogging, and someone comes on

764
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:16.619
oh, quick, let's get in this cupboard.

765
00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:19.619
It's all played like that I'm right up to like when they're

766
00:35:19.619 --> 00:35:22.440
getting married and it's like, oh, Tom Paris is more interested in

767
00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:24.900
this space race, then getting narrow to Balana.

768
00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:30.719
I'm not really convinced by the relationship, but every now and

769
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:33.960
again, and I think the end of this episode as hysterical as it is

770
00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:37.139
I do buy into the fact that there are a couple, I think, going on

771
00:35:37.139 --> 00:35:37.920
a journey together.

772
00:35:37.980 --> 00:35:43.739
But if, wow, there's no relationships in TNG is there that I can

773
00:35:43.739 --> 00:35:44.039
think of.

774
00:35:44.099 --> 00:35:48.179
Well, you know, Deanna and Worf briefly.

775
00:35:48.300 --> 00:35:50.280
Oh, God, it's terrible.

776
00:35:51.059 --> 00:35:53.280
Any tangible ones?

777
00:35:53.340 --> 00:35:54.659
No, no.

778
00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:58.139
I mean, you know, like Riker and Deanna are exes.

779
00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:01.980
Okay, like Dax and Worf then in DS9, where, you know, they're

780
00:36:01.980 --> 00:36:03.900
instantly flirting and they get odd.

781
00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:07.199
And, and you go on a real journey and it's like an emotional

782
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:09.659
journey where you're investing in those 2 characters and where

783
00:36:09.659 --> 00:36:11.579
they're going to the point where she dies and you're devastated

784
00:36:11.579 --> 00:36:12.659
because he's then on his own.

785
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:14.340
And that has fallout.

786
00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:15.480
Whereas this is very different.

787
00:36:15.539 --> 00:36:19.559
This is just very comedy sitcom relationship.

788
00:36:19.619 --> 00:36:22.500
But he doesn't want to do any of that stuff because it's the space

789
00:36:22.500 --> 00:36:23.940
anomaly of the week show.

790
00:36:23.940 --> 00:36:27.480
And so there's a bit of window dressing here.

791
00:36:27.539 --> 00:36:30.179
And see, look at this.

792
00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:31.380
He is an asshole.

793
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:31.920
Look at this.

794
00:36:31.980 --> 00:36:32.699
What a racist.

795
00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:33.539
He's doing it.

796
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:34.920
She's just in the 10 over there.

797
00:36:34.980 --> 00:36:36.179
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

798
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:36.780
Yeah.

799
00:36:36.840 --> 00:36:39.539
And you think that's the reveal.

800
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:42.119
So we have that close-up of her face.

801
00:36:42.179 --> 00:36:43.739
She's been thinking about that.

802
00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:48.360
We think that's the climax of the flashback, the moment where her

803
00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:53.699
father basically rejects her and her mother in her hearing, which

804
00:36:53.699 --> 00:36:57.780
um, and so then getting the extra thing, I think, is a fantastic

805
00:36:57.780 --> 00:36:58.320
twist.

806
00:36:58.380 --> 00:37:00.780
Could Jocose be any more boring?

807
00:37:00.900 --> 00:37:04.019
Like, yeah, oh my god.

808
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:06.059
Oh my goodness.

809
00:37:06.179 --> 00:37:09.239
Okay, I know, I'm talking about a lot of other episodes here, but

810
00:37:09.239 --> 00:37:11.579
I think you kind of need to revoyager, because there are moments

811
00:37:11.579 --> 00:37:12.780
where these characters work.

812
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:16.199
There's an episode in series 2 where they lean into the Janeway

813
00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:19.980
Chakotay relationship where they're stuck on a planet and they

814
00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:22.440
acknowledge that they're going to have a relationship because

815
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:24.840
they're stuck on and they start holding hands and things.

816
00:37:24.900 --> 00:37:28.920
And if they run with that, he could have been so interesting.

817
00:37:28.980 --> 00:37:31.980
And it's like, you know, the captain's bit on the side, you know?

818
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:36.300
No, she's she only fucks holograms.

819
00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:39.179
That's my point, though, is that there are interesting

820
00:37:39.179 --> 00:37:42.239
opportunities to explore and they never take that interesting

821
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:42.900
opportunity.

822
00:37:43.380 --> 00:37:45.119
Yeah, no.

823
00:37:45.179 --> 00:37:46.980
And they don't want to.

824
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:48.840
And I think that...

825
00:37:49.139 --> 00:37:50.280
Why don't they want to make the show interesting?

826
00:37:50.340 --> 00:37:54.119
Well, because they think the space anomalies and the solving space

827
00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:55.800
anomaly problems are interesting.

828
00:37:55.860 --> 00:37:57.480
I think that's it.

829
00:37:57.539 --> 00:37:59.880
We've had 7 years of that on TNG.

830
00:37:59.940 --> 00:38:01.440
We don't think that seasons.

831
00:38:01.500 --> 00:38:02.820
That's the problem.

832
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:04.860
That's precisely the problem, I think.

833
00:38:05.099 --> 00:38:07.139
Oh, dear.

834
00:38:07.139 --> 00:38:07.559
Oh, okay.

835
00:38:07.619 --> 00:38:09.900
So this fake out doctor now, right?

836
00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:12.719
I remember when I was 1st watching this game, yeah, she's

837
00:38:12.719 --> 00:38:14.699
reprogrammed. like there's no there's no hint.

838
00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:16.619
There's no, she's there going, what?

839
00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:17.159
What is it?

840
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:19.920
Like pretending that she doesn't know that she's pre-programmed

841
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:22.260
but it's very... some great acting from Roxanne.

842
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:24.719
And he's playing it slightly differently as well.

843
00:38:24.780 --> 00:38:29.280
He's slightly more wooden, just not, you know, data level wooden

844
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:29.460
but.

845
00:38:29.940 --> 00:38:30.960
Have you watched Voyager?

846
00:38:31.019 --> 00:38:33.719
He's played the evil doctor in about 20 different ways so far.

847
00:38:33.780 --> 00:38:35.639
He knows how to do this now.

848
00:38:35.699 --> 00:38:38.940
He's so good He is so good.

849
00:38:40.019 --> 00:38:43.440
I don't know what Tom is thinking there.

850
00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:45.960
It doesn't last long, does it?

851
00:38:46.019 --> 00:38:47.579
Because within about 30 seconds.

852
00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:50.760
Him and 7 are trying to like get in there and stop this from

853
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:51.119
happening.

854
00:38:51.179 --> 00:38:54.239
Yeah, it's and it's kind of bullshit.

855
00:38:54.300 --> 00:38:57.119
It is like, because it's too over the top.

856
00:38:57.179 --> 00:39:00.480
And so we need some jeopardy this episode.

857
00:39:00.539 --> 00:39:07.019
And so she just goes to town, you know, like she's reprogrammed

858
00:39:07.019 --> 00:39:09.599
the doctor, erected a force field, you know, the whole thing.

859
00:39:09.719 --> 00:39:10.920
Did she thing would come of this?

860
00:39:10.980 --> 00:39:13.380
Like, did she think that him and Tom were, Oh, well, you know, I've

861
00:39:13.380 --> 00:39:13.980
done it now.

862
00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:16.320
You know, I've locked you out and we've done the re-sequencing and

863
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:18.179
now we're just going to have a lovely human baby and everything's

864
00:39:18.179 --> 00:39:18.659
going to be fine.

865
00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:21.780
He probably leave her for doing this for like...

866
00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:22.380
No, no, no.

867
00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:24.360
She knows she's on Voyager and everyone will have forgotten all

868
00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:25.860
this by next week. true.

869
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:26.519
Oh my word.

870
00:39:26.579 --> 00:39:28.619
Can I just say, look, Egypt's just there.

871
00:39:28.739 --> 00:39:33.179
Wasn't it fabulous when they took his eye out in Picard?

872
00:39:33.239 --> 00:39:34.860
They kill him in Picard.

873
00:39:34.920 --> 00:39:36.000
He's dead.

874
00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:37.260
Oh, he was so boring.

875
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:37.800
He deserved it.

876
00:39:37.980 --> 00:39:40.500
Oh boy, Chip.

877
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:42.300
There's too many characters here.

878
00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:46.320
So you've got 7 and Tuvok, who are always just hilarious in scenes

879
00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:49.440
together because they're 2 really good actors having to give it

880
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:54.300
this sort of flat alien space delivery, which is so terrible.

881
00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:57.900
And cherry ride is so much better in Picard because...

882
00:39:57.900 --> 00:40:02.280
I realised after watching Picard how restrained she was in this.

883
00:40:02.340 --> 00:40:04.559
Yeah, I think she's fantastic.

884
00:40:04.619 --> 00:40:07.260
Like, I think she's absolutely superb and much better than we had

885
00:40:07.260 --> 00:40:08.280
any right to expect.

886
00:40:08.340 --> 00:40:11.579
She would be, this sort of near naked woman.

887
00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:16.260
Um, I mean, I, I, I think by this point in series 7, actually

888
00:40:16.260 --> 00:40:19.079
they've kind of exhausted her, what they can do with our own

889
00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:22.440
Voyager, because in four, 5, and six, they just do so much with

890
00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:22.860
seven.

891
00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:25.559
But by this point, you're almost getting like 7 fatigue.

892
00:40:25.559 --> 00:40:29.340
But those initial couple of years where her and Mulgrew aren't

893
00:40:29.340 --> 00:40:32.400
getting on and the actual tension between the actors is there on

894
00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:35.460
the screen, it's the most interesting Voyager ever was.

895
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:37.320
Yeah, yeah.

896
00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:39.000
That was a...

897
00:40:39.059 --> 00:40:42.840
I always love a big sort of unexpected cast change, you know, like

898
00:40:42.840 --> 00:40:46.380
where the writers have to sort of accommodate something, like the

899
00:40:46.380 --> 00:40:51.539
end of series 6 of Deep Space 9, and it does open up a show, even

900
00:40:51.539 --> 00:40:55.380
a show like Voyager, which is not particularly serialised, which

901
00:40:55.380 --> 00:40:56.579
forces it to do something new.

902
00:40:56.639 --> 00:40:58.199
Sorry to interrupt you.

903
00:40:58.260 --> 00:41:00.239
You know what we've been talking about lighting in the last 2

904
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:00.659
episodes.

905
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:03.780
Yes, Enterprise and House of War.

906
00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:05.400
Have you noticed now we've gone dramatic?

907
00:41:05.460 --> 00:41:08.579
Suddenly the Sick Bay lights have gone right down. as the doctors

908
00:41:08.579 --> 00:41:09.360
are about to do something.

909
00:41:09.420 --> 00:41:12.239
In the middle of a medical procedure, you have the lights right up

910
00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:12.659
wouldn't you?

911
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:16.320
He explained in the previous episode that it was to encourage the

912
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:19.019
previous scene rather that it was to encourage vascular dilation.

913
00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:22.199
Oh, they gave a reason for the dramatic.

914
00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:24.119
There's a space reason for the dramatic lighting.

915
00:41:24.179 --> 00:41:25.320
They're a dead hand to this now.

916
00:41:28.139 --> 00:41:30.960
Okay, so this sequence here.

917
00:41:31.019 --> 00:41:36.599
I do like it, um, as they actually have to talk about what is

918
00:41:36.599 --> 00:41:39.960
wrong with her and she has to reveal that her dad left.

919
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:43.739
But it does get very hysterical at times.

920
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:45.119
And I'm overwhelmed.

921
00:41:45.179 --> 00:41:47.880
Like, no, you know, I talk about far beyond the stars earlier, and

922
00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:50.219
that bit with Avery Brooks, again, that's way hysterical.

923
00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:56.579
I often find that I moved when the performances brought down with

924
00:41:56.579 --> 00:41:56.940
people.

925
00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:00.239
And this, you know, I'm very moved because of what she's saying

926
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:03.179
it's moving, but it is very shouty in a minute.

927
00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:04.980
He's like, come on, Bilana.

928
00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:05.639
Talk to me.

929
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:08.699
Have you ever had a conversation like that with your partner

930
00:42:08.699 --> 00:42:10.199
because I don't have.

931
00:42:10.260 --> 00:42:10.500
No.

932
00:42:11.820 --> 00:42:13.980
Oh no, I did once.

933
00:42:14.039 --> 00:42:16.440
I did once with an ex, actually, at the pier.

934
00:42:16.500 --> 00:42:19.559
I was leaving him, like leaving leaving him and he's like, don't

935
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:20.340
walk away from me.

936
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:24.480
So I have that one conversation like a soap opera.

937
00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:28.320
Sorry, a bit of a diet.

938
00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:31.139
Well, you know, it's this scene, isn't it?

939
00:42:32.460 --> 00:42:38.880
I also think what, I mean, yes, I never thought you'd go this

940
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:39.239
far.

941
00:42:39.300 --> 00:42:44.579
It is ridiculous, and that's part of the problem, is the lengths

942
00:42:44.579 --> 00:42:48.780
that she goes to, and they do deal with the fallout from it

943
00:42:48.780 --> 00:42:52.559
beautifully well, I think. just absolutely supported.

944
00:42:52.679 --> 00:42:55.019
Yeah, the next thing where she comes into apology.

945
00:42:55.079 --> 00:42:55.739
God, it's good.

946
00:42:55.800 --> 00:42:56.940
That's the best thing about the whole episode.

947
00:42:57.420 --> 00:42:58.139
Oh, it's wonderful.

948
00:42:58.199 --> 00:42:59.940
But it should have be.

949
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:01.619
This should be the best thing.

950
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:03.179
Yeah, yeah.

951
00:43:04.139 --> 00:43:07.679
Oh, no, I know you're not.

952
00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:10.800
You not my father, for God's sake.

953
00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:15.539
A lot of our audience will be Doctor Who fans, and this reminds me

954
00:43:15.539 --> 00:43:16.320
of Curtis Ferry.

955
00:43:16.380 --> 00:43:17.940
I didn't know she was my mum.

956
00:43:18.059 --> 00:43:20.940
It's very of that ilk, this line.

957
00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:27.239
But this, I think this is actually properly good.

958
00:43:27.420 --> 00:43:32.400
Um, You know, and she's having to say it rather than getting us to

959
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:36.059
see it because, you know, obviously we can't see how she was

960
00:43:36.059 --> 00:43:39.239
daddy's little girl and he really loved her and all of that sort

961
00:43:39.239 --> 00:43:39.659
of thing.

962
00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:42.900
And then he can't take anymore because he's a massive fucking

963
00:43:42.900 --> 00:43:43.559
racist.

964
00:43:43.619 --> 00:43:48.539
And, um, but the thing...

965
00:43:48.539 --> 00:43:49.500
Say what you think, Nathan.

966
00:43:50.460 --> 00:43:53.340
But the thing that's great.

967
00:43:53.400 --> 00:44:00.059
The thing that's really good is that she tells him to leave and he

968
00:44:00.059 --> 00:44:02.519
leaves 12 days later.

969
00:44:02.519 --> 00:44:08.940
And Tom says it can't be because you told him to leave and she

970
00:44:08.940 --> 00:44:14.340
says she doesn't buy that because it's absolutely possible from

971
00:44:14.340 --> 00:44:20.519
what we see that she gave him the idea, you know, and that's why

972
00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:21.179
he left.

973
00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:23.880
Okay, I've just spent 7 seasons with her, all right?

974
00:44:23.940 --> 00:44:26.460
And she's a lot of hard-bloody work. would have left there as

975
00:44:26.460 --> 00:44:26.639
well.

976
00:44:26.699 --> 00:44:29.519
Imagine her as a hormonal teenager.

977
00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:31.559
But look at it.

978
00:44:31.619 --> 00:44:33.900
She's so good. like in the flashback.

979
00:44:33.960 --> 00:44:38.519
She's upgrading his, um, she's upgrading his fishing rod.

980
00:44:38.579 --> 00:44:41.099
She's reading quietly.

981
00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:42.960
Like she's good.

982
00:44:43.019 --> 00:44:44.760
She's a good girl.

983
00:44:44.820 --> 00:44:49.260
And I, you know, like Star Trek doesn't do sort of German

984
00:44:49.260 --> 00:44:50.639
expressionism or anything.

985
00:44:50.699 --> 00:44:52.980
We're supposed to understand that this is what really happened

986
00:44:52.980 --> 00:44:54.960
rather than just her version of events.

987
00:44:55.019 --> 00:45:01.019
And we see a good, quiet, like a bit moody little girl, but who's

988
00:45:01.019 --> 00:45:04.320
experiencing racism and is feeling bad about it.

989
00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:06.659
And he's dismissing her.

990
00:45:06.719 --> 00:45:07.860
Yeah, yeah.

991
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:08.820
Yeah.

992
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:13.559
But I mean, so I suppose that does in a way, I still don't think

993
00:45:13.559 --> 00:45:16.860
it's great, but it does inform her behaviour throughout the last 7

994
00:45:16.860 --> 00:45:19.860
years of why she's had this identity issue.

995
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:21.119
Yeah.

996
00:45:21.179 --> 00:45:21.900
Yeah.

997
00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:27.599
It's it's perhaps not as satisfied payoff as it could be, but it's

998
00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:27.900
something.

999
00:45:27.960 --> 00:45:30.420
They're giving it some context, at least, because until when I

1000
00:45:30.420 --> 00:45:32.699
thought, she's just been like, I hate being Klingon, and that's

1001
00:45:32.699 --> 00:45:32.880
it.

1002
00:45:32.940 --> 00:45:34.860
That's, that's all, but for no reason.

1003
00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:35.340
Yeah.

1004
00:45:35.340 --> 00:45:38.699
And she doesn't, the reason that she hates being Klingon is

1005
00:45:38.699 --> 00:45:40.739
because she experienced racism as a child.

1006
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:43.739
See, I can't I can't hear them say in the dialogue, obviously

1007
00:45:43.739 --> 00:45:45.900
because we've got the sound hand, but I'm looking at Roxanne

1008
00:45:45.900 --> 00:45:46.320
Dawson.

1009
00:45:46.380 --> 00:45:47.280
She's doing really well here.

1010
00:45:47.340 --> 00:45:48.840
Like she's very contained.

1011
00:45:48.900 --> 00:45:51.239
She's crying, you know, she's in the moment.

1012
00:45:51.300 --> 00:45:53.519
I just think he just blows every line.

1013
00:45:53.579 --> 00:45:55.619
Yeah, no, he's not very good is he?

1014
00:45:55.679 --> 00:46:03.239
But, But see, again, he's minimising her experience of racism.

1015
00:46:03.300 --> 00:46:05.760
He didn't leave because you told him to.

1016
00:46:05.820 --> 00:46:10.139
And she just very quietly says, you know, you don't know that, and

1017
00:46:10.139 --> 00:46:10.860
we don't know that.

1018
00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:12.599
Can I say though?

1019
00:46:12.659 --> 00:46:15.900
Tom Paris, yeah, it's a bit of a prick throughout this entire

1020
00:46:15.900 --> 00:46:16.440
run.

1021
00:46:16.500 --> 00:46:18.480
And everyone could have says about it.

1022
00:46:18.539 --> 00:46:20.460
Like, oh, yeah, that's Paris.

1023
00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:24.420
No one ever really deals with it, you know, he's always saying

1024
00:46:24.420 --> 00:46:27.900
ridiculous platitudes like this and he's always behaving in a

1025
00:46:27.900 --> 00:46:28.320
really bad way.

1026
00:46:28.739 --> 00:46:32.280
Well, I mean, I think I think some of that's just sort of

1027
00:46:32.280 --> 00:46:34.980
incompetence when it comes to the scripting and stuff.

1028
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:38.460
Like, I don't think they intended for him to be, you know, like

1029
00:46:38.460 --> 00:46:39.420
terrible.

1030
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:41.280
Jerry said they think he was likeable.

1031
00:46:41.340 --> 00:46:45.119
I hope one day that, you know, we have 2 or 3 or 4 children and

1032
00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:47.219
then you should just put in brackets that I can be incredibly

1033
00:46:47.219 --> 00:46:48.059
racist to as well.

1034
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:53.639
I am not your father, and you are not, you are not your mother.

1035
00:46:53.699 --> 00:46:56.280
I mean, this is incredibly obvious, isn't it?

1036
00:46:56.460 --> 00:47:01.500
Yeah, and this is another thing too, where in a way, you know, we

1037
00:47:01.500 --> 00:47:04.440
all have a big cry and then the problem solved.

1038
00:47:04.500 --> 00:47:11.099
Even though, even though he's been dismissing, and he has said, you

1039
00:47:11.099 --> 00:47:14.340
know, tell me, you know, I want I want to hear about it, but he's

1040
00:47:14.340 --> 00:47:15.480
basically been dismissing.

1041
00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:17.280
Can I just mention, this is the best scene.

1042
00:47:17.340 --> 00:47:22.199
The doctor's voice log there because he basically does that, you

1043
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:24.840
know, Dr. Crusher has repaired us all with our usual skill.

1044
00:47:24.900 --> 00:47:27.300
They love doing that, don't they, before the last scene.

1045
00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:30.059
Everything back to normal is what he's basically saying.

1046
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:32.039
But look at this.

1047
00:47:32.099 --> 00:47:35.820
Think about how he was regarded in series one.

1048
00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:38.579
She has come in to apologise to him.

1049
00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:42.480
Even though she's treated him like a piece of hardware.

1050
00:47:42.659 --> 00:47:46.320
You know, and 2 beats here.

1051
00:47:46.380 --> 00:47:51.599
One is when he feels the baby kicking and it's both their their

1052
00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:52.500
shared reaction.

1053
00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:58.139
And 2 is when she asked him to be the godfather and his reaction

1054
00:47:58.139 --> 00:48:01.619
to it, i.e. my god, look how far we've come, you know?

1055
00:48:02.099 --> 00:48:07.860
I really like where he says, oh, well, you were hormonal Klingon

1056
00:48:07.860 --> 00:48:12.360
pregnancy and she says, well, that no, that's not an excuse, but

1057
00:48:12.360 --> 00:48:14.219
thank you for letting me off the hook.

1058
00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:17.400
And it is that sort of thing where he's just willing to let it

1059
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:17.760
go.

1060
00:48:17.820 --> 00:48:19.559
He wants to forgive her.

1061
00:48:19.619 --> 00:48:21.360
But that's beautiful.

1062
00:48:21.420 --> 00:48:24.900
And I love how he asks, may I, before he goes in to touch the

1063
00:48:24.900 --> 00:48:25.619
kicking baby.

1064
00:48:25.679 --> 00:48:28.079
I'm going keep asking this question.

1065
00:48:28.139 --> 00:48:30.900
If they can do it here with nuance.

1066
00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:31.980
What about the rest of the episode?

1067
00:48:32.099 --> 00:48:33.539
Yeah, yeah.

1068
00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:36.960
Is it just because these are really good actors?

1069
00:48:37.019 --> 00:48:38.460
I think so.

1070
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:42.000
Like, I think in context, this is super interesting, because in a

1071
00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:47.400
show that's been about racism, him being a hologram is also given

1072
00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:52.559
kind of racial characteristics as well, because he's dehumanised.

1073
00:48:52.559 --> 00:48:55.559
Like a 2nd glass citizen for those first.

1074
00:48:55.619 --> 00:48:59.400
And and we get this stuff in series 7 that you talked about before

1075
00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:02.639
where, you know, it's about liberating his people who are

1076
00:49:02.639 --> 00:49:03.179
oppressed.

1077
00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:08.760
And so having him being treated as fully human.

1078
00:49:08.820 --> 00:49:10.860
And just his delight.

1079
00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:12.119
Oh my goodness.

1080
00:49:12.179 --> 00:49:18.360
Like, I think that Picardo's smile is just ridiculous.

1081
00:49:18.420 --> 00:49:23.460
I mean, there was this, you know, they ruined it with that, with

1082
00:49:23.460 --> 00:49:25.559
an ugly CGI baby again.

1083
00:49:25.619 --> 00:49:30.659
Oh, poor old Roxanne is having to, and and we go out on a laugh

1084
00:49:30.659 --> 00:49:32.460
like that's super embarrassing.

1085
00:49:32.519 --> 00:49:33.360
Oh, look.

1086
00:49:33.420 --> 00:49:36.780
I think Robert Mercado's embarrassed by having to do that little

1087
00:49:36.780 --> 00:49:38.039
joke at the end of the episode.

1088
00:49:38.099 --> 00:49:39.599
They can't see what the effect looks like.

1089
00:49:39.659 --> 00:49:42.059
So they're probably thinking it is very juice.

1090
00:49:42.119 --> 00:49:43.440
They're like, oh, it's Nick.

1091
00:49:44.099 --> 00:49:46.679
They probably watched the episode and went, oh my god.

1092
00:49:46.739 --> 00:49:50.639
Yeah, no, neither actor is particularly comfortable in that final

1093
00:49:50.639 --> 00:49:51.480
shot.

1094
00:49:51.900 --> 00:49:54.300
But I will say about this.

1095
00:49:54.360 --> 00:50:01.559
Um, episode and that is, it is unusual for Voyager to tell like a

1096
00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:03.000
character story like this.

1097
00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:06.300
And this is like an 11th hour character story as well.

1098
00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:10.619
And kind of the last stab to do anything with Tom and Belana.

1099
00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:14.820
Whilst it isn't like the best of Trek's run, I do appreciate the

1100
00:50:14.820 --> 00:50:17.880
effort because this could have been another space anomaly episode

1101
00:50:17.880 --> 00:50:18.300
you know?

1102
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:19.739
Yeah.

1103
00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:23.159
But like I said, I think this is a show that's designed around

1104
00:50:23.159 --> 00:50:27.780
space anomalies and so I think that it flops to some degree when

1105
00:50:27.780 --> 00:50:30.659
it tries to do character drama because that's not what it's set up

1106
00:50:30.659 --> 00:50:30.960
to do.

1107
00:50:34.380 --> 00:50:40.079
All right, so we are on untitled Star Trek project.com slash

1108
00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:45.059
randomiser, ready to choose our next episode.

1109
00:50:45.179 --> 00:50:47.280
Joe, which series are we choosing from?

1110
00:50:47.340 --> 00:50:49.019
All of them.

1111
00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:54.539
Now, we have very much been on a 90s trek run.

1112
00:50:54.599 --> 00:50:57.780
We've done a next generation at Deep Space 9 and a Voyager, and

1113
00:50:57.780 --> 00:51:00.539
that, that's kind of our era, isn't it, really?

1114
00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:01.019
Yeah.

1115
00:51:01.079 --> 00:51:04.980
But now we think it's time to take the risk, including the

1116
00:51:04.980 --> 00:51:09.480
animated series, including enterprise, including some of those new

1117
00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:10.500
ones that you love.

1118
00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:13.260
Yeah, to go across the board.

1119
00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:14.519
So roll the dice.

1120
00:51:14.579 --> 00:51:15.780
All right.

1121
00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:17.400
Here goes. pressing the button.

1122
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:26.340
Uh, so it's Star Trek, uh, the next generation.

1123
00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:27.239
Okay.

1124
00:51:27.239 --> 00:51:28.019
It's...

1125
00:51:28.019 --> 00:51:31.260
Oh, it's lower decks, lower deck.

1126
00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:31.920
So good.

1127
00:51:32.039 --> 00:51:33.599
Now roll it again.

1128
00:51:33.659 --> 00:51:35.880
Come on, we can't do another next gen this early.

1129
00:51:35.940 --> 00:51:37.260
What if it's a lower decks episode?

1130
00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:38.579
That would be hilarious.

1131
00:51:41.639 --> 00:51:42.840
Bar association.

1132
00:51:42.900 --> 00:51:43.679
I watched that last week.

1133
00:51:43.739 --> 00:51:44.820
Deep say Snide.

1134
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:46.019
I know, I know you did.

1135
00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:49.440
Can we try and get, can we just try and escape 90s track, please?

1136
00:51:49.500 --> 00:51:51.000
I could turn it off.

1137
00:51:51.059 --> 00:51:53.099
Yeah, take off the 90s.

1138
00:51:53.159 --> 00:51:55.139
We'll take off the 90s.

1139
00:51:55.199 --> 00:51:55.500
Okay.

1140
00:51:55.559 --> 00:51:59.340
So we are leaving Enterprise on, so we're not going to do a series

1141
00:51:59.340 --> 00:52:01.139
that we've done before. fair.

1142
00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:01.739
Okay.

1143
00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:02.820
All right, let's try that.

1144
00:52:03.960 --> 00:52:06.239
I have no idea what this is.

1145
00:52:06.300 --> 00:52:09.539
Oh, it's Star Trek Discovery.

1146
00:52:09.659 --> 00:52:10.320
Oh, okay.

1147
00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:10.980
Okay.

1148
00:52:11.039 --> 00:52:13.980
Series 3, episode four.

1149
00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:19.079
I said from the most recent episode, the most recent series.

1150
00:52:19.559 --> 00:52:21.000
Is that the true one for discovery?

1151
00:52:21.059 --> 00:52:22.619
I can't remember.

1152
00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:25.139
I don't do episode titles.

1153
00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:25.559
What do you think?

1154
00:52:25.619 --> 00:52:29.159
Well, I no, I'd love to lean into discovery. just to tell you what

1155
00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:30.119
I'm terrible about it.

1156
00:52:30.179 --> 00:52:30.840
No, I'm joking.

1157
00:52:30.900 --> 00:52:32.159
I mean, to tell you what's great about it.

1158
00:52:32.340 --> 00:52:35.460
I'm really looking forward to doing this All right.

1159
00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:39.480
I can't remember which one this is because I haven't, I'm not very

1160
00:52:39.480 --> 00:52:43.260
good on episode titles of Discovery or indeed anything except Star

1161
00:52:43.260 --> 00:52:44.280
Trek, the Next Generation.

1162
00:52:44.340 --> 00:52:49.320
I seem to remember the 1st 5 episodes of Series 3 of Discovery

1163
00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:50.280
were rather good.

1164
00:52:50.340 --> 00:52:52.920
So I think we've got goody here, whichever one it is.

1165
00:52:52.980 --> 00:52:54.420
Yeah, yeah.

1166
00:52:54.480 --> 00:52:55.320
Forget me not.

1167
00:52:55.380 --> 00:52:56.760
It could be Adira and Gray.

1168
00:52:56.880 --> 00:52:58.980
I think it's I think it is that one.

1169
00:52:59.039 --> 00:52:59.400
Yeah.

1170
00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:00.239
The true one.

1171
00:53:00.300 --> 00:53:05.579
And it will be our 1st jump into a heavily serialised show as an

1172
00:53:05.579 --> 00:53:07.500
individual episode, which will be interesting.

1173
00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:12.659
Series 3 is a little bit less serialised than series one and two, I

1174
00:53:12.659 --> 00:53:12.780
think.

1175
00:53:12.900 --> 00:53:14.219
All right, okay.

1176
00:53:14.280 --> 00:53:16.019
In that case, it's forget me not.

1177
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:18.119
Star Trek Discoveries, forget me not.

1178
00:53:18.179 --> 00:53:20.400
Series three, episode four.

1179
00:53:20.460 --> 00:53:24.420
So I guess you could watch that before our next release.

1180
00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:37.800
Let's do it You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project

1181
00:53:37.800 --> 00:53:39.960
with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley.

1182
00:53:40.019 --> 00:53:43.679
You can find us online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com, where

1183
00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:46.559
you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.

1184
00:53:46.619 --> 00:53:50.219
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceron, and the theme was

1185
00:53:50.219 --> 00:53:51.719
composed by Cameron Lab.

1186
00:53:51.780 --> 00:53:56.219
This episode was recorded on the 6th of October 2021 and released

1187
00:53:56.219 --> 00:53:57.780
on the 19th of November.

1188
00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:01.559
We'll see you next time for discoveries forget me not.