Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we had what I can only call a stroke of extreme good fortune
last time we met in that on our 1st go, we rolled the 1994 Star
Trek, The Next Generation Classic Sub-Rosa.
Well, I'd say we defied all olds and good sense because you said
to me whilst I was staring at my screen in astonishment, is it sub
brosa?
Yeah.
And I'm like, I just approved to you that it was.
I had to hold it up to the screen.
I didn't think you were going to believe me.
And I do find it very strange that of the 900 Star Trek episodes
you actually picked the one that gave me that look of
astonishment.
Well, there you go.
JavaScript, a magical thing.
I'm going to tell you something now, Nathan, my look of
astonishment did not stop the entire 45 minutes.
I watched this episode.
So like, I have to say that I think some of the hatred for this
episode, and before I finish that sentence, let me just say, it is
a bad episode.
Okay.
I'm going that terrible.
It's terrible on a level.
I suppose we watch a bit of television and you just can't wait
like thinking, what were they thinking?
So clearly they're trying to do sort of Gothic romance, and it's a
story by Jerry Taylor, who will be executive producer of Voyager
any minute now at this point.
And she will introduce a holiday program based on Rebecca, you
know, the mysterious Lord Farfavar.
Do you know what his name is?
Burley, Burley.
Burley, who has his name?
Oh, anyway, doesn't he?
No, no, no, it is in like 2 or 3 episodes and they don't do
anything with it.
It's not a running storyline.
It's just, Jane, we're getting her rocks off playing governess.
It's very strange.
But I think what's happening is that Gothic romance novels are
traditionally women's concerns.
And so I think some of the scorn that gets heaped on this episode
is because it's a romance instead of having space battles and guns
and stuff.
So there's a sort of level of contempt for that sort of girly
stuff.
Now, I think this fucks it up mightily and absolutely makes
Beverly seem like a massive idiot.
So I don't think this is a great moment in the history of
feminism.
They do have absolute contempt for this because they don't just
run it as a Gothic fantasy.
They give every single, like, supernatural thing in this, a
technobabble explanation.
And I know it's an episode of Star Trek.
But if you're going to go for this, just go for it, you know?
Yeah, but 90 Star Trek's never going to do that.
I think even probably later iterations of Star Trek would have
struggled to do that.
They have had things that are unexplained.
Remember the Royale, the other much loved episode of Star Trek, The
Next Generation from series 2, was it Gothic fantasy though, was
it?
No, no, no, but no explanations given for why there is a casino on
that gas giant or whatever or why they could lift there or who
made it or what's going on.
Do you know what?
I can't wait till we get to that one because that one had such a
trouble that the, it was beaten out of shape from what it was
originally, what Tracy Tormay wrote to what ended up on screen.
That's like one of the most troubled episodes of Star Trek ever
probably what I turned out so terrible, honest.
But do you know what?
we have to say one thing, right?
We do have to say one thing about Sub Rosa.
And that is Gates McFadden, who is extraordinarily appallingly
wonderful in this.
Yeah.
Like, like, if you're going to be handed an episode where, you
know, essentially you're wanking off to nothing.
You just got to go for it, haven't you?
And she really does.
If she'd been visibly embarrassed by the material, no one would
have blamed her, I think, but it would have made the whole thing a
lot less enjoyable, and she certainly absolutely goes for it.
And, you know, her default mode is very wooden and very exposition
heavy.
And so getting her to do something else.
Actually, I think often works, not here, but at least it gets us
to see her doing something pretty incredible.
It's very strange though, isn't it?
They do have this thing in genre television where they want people
to have orgasms to nothing.
You remember that episode of Buffy, when I was at wall in the
house, and then whenever anyone touched it, they had an insane
orgasm.
Oh my god, no.
Yeah, that was in like series 4 and everyone's doing like writhing
orgasm.
Oh no.
And then, of course, you had the game in series 5 when they played
when they got to the next level.
And there's Nurse Gower in the turbo list going, nutting in the
turbo list.
You know, like...
But you know what?
I'll tell you what, something that really stood out from the next
because I think this is supposed to be super sexy, this episode
yeah.
It really isn't at all, is it?
It's just a bit gross.
Yeah, I think it is a bit gross.
And I think, you know, like we're not the audience.
I mean, even though we're gay men, and so we're into men, right
that is not at all.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know if anyone home knows that.
This, you know, He's not Colin Firth, I can tell you that.
And he is sort of creepy and massively unlikeable.
And as Picard points out, Beverly under his influence is also
massively unlikeable.
So the whole thing doesn't really go anywhere.
So, like, yeah, there's failure all over the place, I think.
Well, and let's not forget, this is our 3rd episode from series 7
of the next generation.
Like we have been rolling a lot of series.
And it just, it ain't great, is it?
This season is not great.
And this is a show that has proven itself across it 7 years now.
Yeah.
Oh, what is going wrong?
Oh, why they're churning out this bloody nonsense. halfway through
the last year.
You know?
I have a feeling that they're busy with pre-production on Voyager
and Generations and they're also running Deep Space 9 and I think
they've taken their eye off the ball.
Absolutely.
And Ron Moore says himself, we just didn't know what to do with
these characters anymore.
They just weren't well defined enough.
And so, you know, we're going to put them in incredibly, you know
data's going to have nightmares and Beverly Crusher's gonna fuck a
ghost and, you know, the magical brick and holodeck.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, I love that one actually.
Awful episode.
Oh, it's one of my least favourites.
Look, before we go in, right, can I can I assault you with some
sound bites from the production group?
Please do.
Because everyone's got an opinion on subbrosa after the after it
was released.
Okay, so Brandon Bragger says, I've come to notice that whenever
you infuse a show with sexual themes, some of the fans seem to
short circuit.
Yeah, that's not the reason, Brennan.
No.
It's Gene Roddenbury.
I tell you what, he would be pumping Star Trek full of sex, wasn't
he?
And loving it.
Renee Echivaria says every woman on the lot who read it was coming
up to Brannan and patting him, like congratulating him on this.
Yeah, I can see the look of pain on your face.
But, you know, there is, you know, that is kind of what I touched
on it is at least an episode that kind of touches on what are
traditionally women's concerns.
It's just that it fucks it up so badly.
Ronald D. Moore says, I kind of like it, and he's not one to not
criticise Star Trek when it goes wrong.
I thought it was good to try a different genre on TNG and mix
things up a little.
It's not a perfect show by any means but I'm glad we did it.
I reckon that's fair.
The retailer says the lovemaking without a partner.
This is not easy stuff to do, and Gates commits herself to it
absolutely.
Well, that is absolutely 100% true.
But my favourite soundbite of all is Brandon Bragger again.
Where he goes, it was the best performance I've ever seen.
I thought she did a wonderful job.
Picard catches Beverly masturbating for crying out loud.
What a tough role to play.
When I was writing the words, she arrives around in bed, having
invisible sex.
I just thought, oh man, we're asking for trouble.
Are we going to be able to pull this off?
But thanks to director Jonathan Frase and Gates.
It's not hokey.
Oh jeez.
I mean, this is the reason that 90s trek is so bad at sex.
It's these people in charge of it.
If you think about Michael and Ash or Michael and Book in
Discovery.
They, you know, like their sexual relationship is hot and isn't
embarrassing and it's treated like a relationship between 2
adults.
It's not this sophomoric bullshit where you've got a middle-aged
man writing a scene where Gates McFadden gets to pretend to flick
herself off while her boss walks in.
Like, that's, Jesus Christ, that's so bad.
The best quote of always, though, Braga goes, even Rick Berman
said, I can't believe we're doing this.
If Rick Bowen thinks it's too much, well then, yeah, maybe we've
gone over a cliff somewhere, you know?
Yeah.
Well, I think we should watch it, but I think we should make it
clear that we have established that the problem here is 100
Brennan Braga.
Yeah.
Okay.
And I think, you know what?
I think the script is written and they do their best with it.
But, yeah.
What else could they do with this?
You know, like, they do, they, I mean, we're going to talk about
this.
They do put a bit of money on the screen, I think.
There's an attempt.
Oh, okay, well, you'll get there.
We're going to have a fight.
Yeah, okay.
Oh, well, let's go into it, shall we?
All right.
I'm desperate to watch Beverly Crusher masturbating.
I don't think that sentence has ever been uttered before.
By a gay man.
Here we go.
Well, by anyone.
Here we go.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
You missed the opportunity then to do that in a cod Scottish
accent.
So tell me what you think of this set.
I love it.
I love this whole set and I, well, not so much this shot, although
he does shoot it from interesting angles.
It's just a bit different from the norm.
It ain't your usual stock forest set.
Like, Buffy the Vampire Slayer would do graveyard sets, and I
think this is better than the ones that they do in Buffy.
In fact, there's one bit later on where the cameras are back and
there's a wide angle and you've got like all trees in the
background and like what looks like an entire church.
Like, they've got a big space to work in.
And I think they light it quite well as well and go on.
Tell me why it's terrible.
No, no.
I agree with you.
I think that they do do...
Oh, look, that looks so shit though.
Look at that shot.
It just looks like a daytime soap opera. why the fuck can't we
just go outside?
Do you know where there are churches that you don't have to build
out of fibreglass outside?
This is a daytime soap. are you talking about?
I think that they I think they get reasonably good at making these
sets and at lighting them.
And I remember thinking, uh, um, hollow pursuits, you know, the
holiday set there.
I remember thinking the inner lights is well lid.
It's entirely indoors.
You know, that shot... now and again, you know that.
You know that colony set that they have that they use in every
show.
Yeah, yeah.
Every now and again, they like that really and shoot it extremely
good.
Look at the, look at the red sky in the background.
I'm getting total kind of spectre of the gun vibe.
Season one, TNG all over again.
Okay, well, while the title music's playing, I need to ask you
planet of the Scottish people.
Oh Jesus Christ.
Like, I want like, firstly, it's sort of fetishising Britain
right?
Why the fuck don't they go to a planet which has based itself on
Tasmania?
Yeah?
Why do we do that?
And the planet?
New Adelaide.
You're not going to have a Gothic romance set in Tasmania, are
you?
Maybe, maybe you could, where they're all related to one another.
I do think there is this romanticised idea of Great Britain, you
know?
And whenever these sort of episodes hit in America.
It generally is British actors they pull in to play the romantic
heroes, isn't it?
For some reason, the sort of Colin Fur types.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But this guy's American.
And the guy Ned Quint, who's warning them, he was born in Dublin
he's Irish.
So I don't think anyone Scottish has been involved.
Maybe they walked out early on or something.
I mean, the only thing they don't have. is black pudding in this
you know, like is at one point he goes, oh, no, the fog's coming
in.
We're going to have to cancel the cable tossing tournament
tomorrow.
That's it.
We're going to have to cancel the pub brawl, the brawl in a pub
car park contest.
No, they do that in Fairhaven, didn't they?
Irish Town.
Jesus Christ.
I mean, okay, there is, but there is this thing, and I, I, it does
annoy me, and I don't think any American show in the 90s is exempt
that whenever they're looking in this direction, and they're
putting it on the screen.
Um, it's just awful and it's every cliche imaginable, you know?
Now, I've talked about Doctor Who looking in the other direction
and getting it all completely wrong, but it's very humbling when
people are looking at Britain and delving into stereotypes.
Oh, can I just say one thing, right?
I really, no, the dialogue's terrible.
Don't get me wrong.
But I do like the chemistry between Gates McFadden and Marina
Surtis.
And they're getting a bit more stuff together as well, you know?
Yeah.
So, Ronan is here in dialogue 35 years old.
I think he looks my age.
There we go.
And it turns out he's 50.
No, he's not.
He's he's 42 at this point.
But he just looks really rough.
Like he doesn't look like a young man.
He looks younger later when he's Chicago.
Yeah, maybe it's the outfit.
Stupid hair.
Does he have stupid hair as a car?
Uh, Yeah, he's got he has got that kind of romanticised wavy.
I've just put a lot of shampoo in my hair. look.
Can you just look at this set properly, please?
Look at how terrible it is.
Look at they've got a bit of wind going through the trees.
There's some...
There's some shots later on. point them out to you when he shoots
this set really, really well.
Okay, maybe you're doing the best job in the wedding.
But at least it's not on the ship and, you know, like, yeah, yeah
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's different from the norm.
And you can say that about this episode a lot.
So I don't know what this guy is doing.
Like, this guy has extra nostrils.
He's a massive.
Yeah, it's like, what are we doing?
It's like, we've done all the sensible things we can do with latex
at this and we've done Varia.
And so now we're doing this guy with a face like a pig into extra
nostrils.
It happens when they get truly desperate when they've run out of
all ideas.
You know what you get, don't you?
Oh, they paint them blue or something.
Oh, you get the bone mole and the white coat angers.
Oh Jesus Christ.
I will never, ever not put in a reference to that.
The boat bar, right?
Yeah.
I mean, we had the Cardassians in their stupid head harnesses.
What do you think of the old dress uniform?
Um, Yeah, I'm glad I'm glad they don't use it too much in DS9 or
Voyager.
I want to, they look, all looks like they're wearing dresses.
There's nothing wrong with that.
They get rid of like it.
Look at these two.
Like they're coming into the house now.
This is a nice dress uniform.
Yeah, yeah, but it's, yeah.
Well, maybe maybe I'm just spoiled because the dreary TNG sets are
so boring normally, you know?
So this just feels a bit more visually interesting.
When they go outside.
You know, think about, I don't know, what's the, what's the, is it
futures past, future imperfect?
What's like, what's the one?
No, what's the one in Voyager with Sarah Silverman?
Oh, Futures End, yeah.
Futures end.
You know, they go outside.
It's fun.
You know, go outside.
Oh, don't you even pretend that Voyage Rain above giving us the
inside.
Oh, no, I know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You're just saying they should go outside more.
Yes.
No, because they're spending too much money on these expensive
actors in their regular cars, you know?
They didn't cast expensive eggs.
Every time she said nana.
And I had the subtitles on.
I kept hearing seeing Nan.
You're thinking of.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I did notice, um, the last time I watched TNG through, they
they, they made a concerted effort to give the women of the show
the 2 women a bit more time together.
And I did like that, and I was like, I, I kind of couldn't, but
the dialogue is very, very short, neighbours, isn't it?
Yeah, but it's also a man riding for women as well.
That doesn't have to be terrible though.
I mean, no, but most TV, I think you're fine.
Most television across the ages is men, right, and for women.
Yeah, but like it's, it's Brandon Braga writing for women about
sex.
It's just never, ever going to come off well.
He should stick to space anomalies.
I love the bit later on where they're doing their, um, well
they're going off to do their leotard, what's it called?
Aerobics. and shoot boxer red in the dog goes, hi, Bev.
I actually like this bit of her performance.
I think she's actually selling what Beverly's feelings. come home
from her nana's funeral.
She's surrounded by...
Yeah, she's sad.
Like she wraps herself up in the thing.
It's underplate.
It goes for quite a while.
There's no dialogue.
Here's her noticing the journal.
Don't read the journal, Beverly.
It is astonishing, though, right?
It is astonishing to think this is directed by the same guy who
directed 1st contact, isn't he?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But again, you know, this is just domestic concerns. and I think
Star Trek doesn't do enough of it.
I think here it does it very badly, but I'd love to see more of
this stuff.
Almost willing to believe that's the same staircase, staircase
that they use for that colony set, you know.
They're just dressed around there.
Oh, here's it.
Oh, this man, he's like, oh, Beverly Crusher.
There's no good at staying in this house, is there?
But he's Irish.
He doesn't do a Scottish accent anymore convincingly than you do.
My name's Ford, all right?
Irish.
Do you see that shot there?
Okay, I'm reaching here, but there was a lovely shot of Beverly in
the mirror there behind him.
Did you see that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, this is like, candle I bought nothing but misery, Nathan.
Yeah, look, complaining about the cliches here is missing the
point, isn't it?
Oh, no, you got to have these scenes.
Yeah, yeah.
It's it's putting it in this environment where you've got to
establish what sort of genre we're in.
Yeah, it's like, you know, all the, it's like anything in that
nation.
Like, oh, you know, we don't have strangers ear when, yeah, yeah
yeah.
And things like that.
Yeah, you've gone out.
Last week where it was, leave me.
I'm just holding you back.
That was so wonderful.
Rebecca.
It's telling you what genre we know. telling you what sort of
story it's telling.
Oh, God. okay.
Every single time we head back to the Enterprise. my brain just
switched off.
Oh, they're talking, it's taking the babble the whole time, giving
excuses for what's going on on the planet.
Yeah, yeah.
And it could just be a space thing.
It could just be, we don't know, it's a space thing.
That would be fine.
No, I would literally rather have more scenes of Beverly Crusher
flicking herself off than to this day of Apple, honestly.
Well, maybe it's a variety of characters coming into the room.
LeVar Burton's had a smart haircut there.
Yeah, I like him some later haircut.
Do you remember the few episodes where he has a beard?
I mean, it's made famous by that meme, but yeah, it is a very good
look.
Is it a real beard?
Because you remember when they Avery books, they gave him a beard
before he grew his beard and then that beard.
Oh, is that fake at the end of it?
Oh, God, so fake in Explorers on the one after that.
No, it is.
It is because his actual beard's very wispy, whereas it's matted
and dark black.
It's, yeah.
I'm going to have another look.
Look at these 2 in the background there, touching the consoles
pretending they're doing something exciting.
Oh, bless them.
They earned their money.
Yeah, this is...
This is a nothing scene, isn't it?
Oh, there's that line.
Oh, the cable toss.
Jesus Christ.
I know.
Yeah.
And like, it's Scotland, and he's complaining that there'll be
rain.
Like, this is Scotland imagined from LA.
Have you ever been to Scotland yourself?
Okay, so I really love going out to Edinburgh in Inverness.
I've been sort of 4 or 5 times now.
And Scotland's one of the few places in the world that when it's
raining, it's even more beautiful.
I mean, the smell that comes off like the heather when it's just
it's mesmerising.
Um, yeah, so another thing there, they're getting wrong.
Yeah, well, again, they can't do it.
That's the other problem is that they can't do a convincing
Scotland because all they've got is this church and a graveyard.
That's all they have.
So they can't create a sense of what Scotland looks like.
I misread that subtitle then.
It looked like Beverly Crusher said, and then a very handsome man
tossed on her grave.
Give it when this episode ends up.
I wouldn't be at all surprised.
Yeah.
So he's 35.
He's been boning Nana and this line here, I should give you time
to get your grandmother's affairs in order.
That's got to be a gag.
The thing is, right?
He plays the last line, like a joke, because he looks at the
camera and doesn't like an eyebrow.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, okay.
So this is your travelling scene here because essentially Ronan is
is currently raping.
This is super rarely crusher.
Yeah.
But then I don't think the women involved in the production team
were reading it like this because, you know, they're going up to
Brandon Bragger and patting him on the back.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, like, maybe they don't see how this turns out and maybe in
retrospect, it seems worse than it did at the time.
But it does seem bad.
And I know that he's a bad guy.
And because he's a bad guy, I don't know how to feel about this
episode, like, because it doesn't bear any relationship, like, Like
Felicia had fun.
She got to have sex, and, you know, all those Howard women got to
have sex with what's his face, Duncan Regear, whatever his name
is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that's all sort of hugely exciting.
And then this, this, why is she having this dream?
Because she's been reading the very detailed explicit account... of
her grandmother.
Like, it's outrageous.
Just stop reading it.
I don't know, Nathan, if you ever explored the darker areas of the
internet, you know, there are like incest sites out there and
things like that.
There's a place for this sort of stuff.
Yeah, yeah, but just grandma, please, not grandma.
Did you see that fabulous woman that walked past in the red dress
that looked like she'd stepped straight out of the original
series?
I kind of like that.
Sometimes they do a sort of 60s-ish, um, look for their casual
clothes.
Do you know, I just think the uniform's got more boring over
time.
Okay.
TOS those primary colours are lovely.
And then these are all right.
And then by the time we get to Enterprises, the plumber outfits
and it's just very dull.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's a shame.
You were saying, you know, in Descent, that Deanna Troy was a bit
kinky.
When she was saying to Data, you know, watch a bit of...
Oh, she was enjoying hearing about his porn consumption.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
I wonder if I'll have another dream tonight.
Who talks like this?
You and I have no secrets, Joe, but we don't talk like this.
If you started talking to me about erotic dreams you were
happening, I'd be absolutely riveted, please start.
Oh okay.
Well, maybe they'll start.
Thank you.
This is quite nice, look, isn't it a little bit misty and the
lights have come down, you know, the trees are fluttering in the
wheels. of the gun background.
They've even put a little light on in the church window.
Look.
I think that's nice though.
I think that that looks all right.
The lawn looks like a butcher shop window.
It's really bad.
She was a grand lady, all right.
I'm not sure what accent I'm doing now.
No, well, neither is he.
This massive row the day before.
Now they're getting on like best of friends.
Yeah, very strange.
Yeah, no.
And...
Oh, yeah.
He dies in the most terrible style.
He dies in a space accident.
He falls down the smallest flight of stairs, doesn't he?
pretty funny.
Yeah.
Look, see, we've got some wind happening.
Oh, he's doing the lilac.
Just do not light that candle.
In a light candle.
He's out now. wandering across the land.
And like all of that's actually not so terrible.
That's the sort of stupid cliche that we want.
I think it's when she starts resigning and orgasming all over the
house and Picard walks in.
That's when it kind of really goes awry this episode.
And when the woman comes up out of the grave, I'm just like, what
is going on now?
I mean, there's broad, Nathan, and there's broad.
Yeah.
But I mean, this this guy warning a speech is a thing that we do
in this genre, that's perfectly fine.
But that's all there is.
Is green lightning makes it look even more fake, doesn't it?
Yeah, well, yeah.
Yeah.
They didn't need to do it.
I mean, it's space lightning because it's terraforming and this is
still Star Trek and they can't leave it alone.
It would have looked better if it was just normal white lighting.
Note, only the trees in the foreground are moving because the
others are painted on the fucking wall.
Well, this was discovery, we'd have a load of CGI trees and now
and it looked incredibly convincing.
No, they probably just film outside.
Yeah, they did, didn't they?
When they went to the Troll planet.
They filmed outside.
I buy a nice lake.
Yeah.
Although everyone was still in a full 90s trek costumes, weren't
they?
Well, deliberately.
What's to say?
Jonathan Frakes says in an interview about this. that he thinks
that Gates McFadden looks as beautiful as she's ever looked in the
next generation and that she looks like a movie starlet.
And I don't disagree with that.
I actually think she is.
And when they give her the green eyes later on, and there's some
shock, she just looks absolutely stunning.
I think she's always been stunning.
She is coming out of the rain.
Showing around her head.
And isn't there flowers?
Isn't there like flowers all over the house now?
I mean, this would creep me the fuck out if I walked into my house
and it was covered in black.
That's right.
Remember what happened to Giles in that Buffy episode?
Jesus Christ.
This, I mean, he's super rapey.
But that is also, let's be fair, part of the genre because the man
is a problem in some way or he's controlling or something.
You know, there's like that is part of the genre.
And even in more recent, like, romantic comedy, if you watch
recent romantic comedy on the whole, the men are super creepy and
raping, like if it happen to you in real life, you know, you're
trying to leave and someone runs and tries to stop you at the
airport or whatever, like all of that, you know, refusing to give
up, I'm going to keep following you, all of that stuff.
Until you relent, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, it feels a bit controlling, doesn't it?
I mean, this feels very controlling.
Well, and it should be literally holds her down at one and...
Yeah.
But if anyone had a sense that that was what this episode was
about. creep in the mirror.
If anyone had a sense of what this was about.
I mean, if this was about that, imagine it was a relationship
about that. not a relationship, an episode about that, about a
controlling relationship where he gets her to quit her job.
It's nearly there.
It's so nearly there because when she decides to leave him is when
she has a choice between following him and healing Picard and
she's a doctor, it's her job, it's...
There's no tension there.
There's no... of the fact that she's conflicted.
She's just like, oh, well, I've had an orgasm for the 1st time in
20 years.
I'm going to quit and go and spend my life with a ghost.
What about that?
What about that trill?
Oh, yeah.
But she couldn't hand it, though, could she, when that trail
became a woman?
No.
The universe is not ready for bisexuality.
It's very, very confronting.
Honestly.
But what you said there.
Is it if they could kind of give it that sort of?
I don't think anyone's thinking along those lines at all.
They were just like, oh, this is fun and sexy and weird, you
know.
Yeah.
But there's nothing to it.
And that's the problem.
And if it had been played in any way real, you know, like if it
had been like it obviously has to be exaggerated, it has to be
melodramatic.
That's all fine.
She's literally licking the wall.
Oh, Ronan, leave me alone.
I mean, look, I do need to complain.
Sorry to you, though.
Like when when TNG is this terrible.
Yeah, there's a few examples of this.
Justice is another great one as well.
Yes, that is equally terrible on that.
It's just deliriously enjoyable.
Oh, no.
You know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, this is not boring and it's not forgettable.
The previous episode.
Not forgettable.
Are you kidding?
It's not forgettable.
The previous episode is called Homewards, and I defy the listener
at home to tell me in one sentence what the fuck happens in that.
Wolf, isn't it?
That's it.
Wolf on planet.
Oh, Wolf.
Long lost brother.
And on location.
Oh, yeah, I think we probably are.
It's a family episode in series 7.
Another family episode.
Maybe you could have guessed that.
But I mean, it's so unmemorable.
They do remake it a bit in insurrection, actually.
I would listen to what he's saying.
I believe you are.
I have ever known.
Yeah, yeah.
But look what you're saying.
We're becoming one Beverly.
Yeah.
Have you ever tried to seduce a man with that line?
We've become one.
Yeah, within the 1st 5 minutes of a conversation at about...
Here we go.
Hi, Bev.
You come into the martial arts today.
What are they playing?
Oh, it's mock bara.
It's how they suck up to wharf.
It's how they make him feel needed.
Well, no, because Troy's just about to start a romance with Worf
so she's trying to, yeah, trying to impress him.
Oh, she's going to the mudbre class.
Look at that shitty nightdress.
Jesus Christ.
But you know what, right?
You say, like, this is a story written by Jerry Taylor and a
script written by Brandon Bragg.
Jerry Taylor actually, she's the one that wrote the episode where
Jane Wen Chakotay are on the planet together and there's like the
subtle suggestion that they fuck.
Yeah.
And then she cuts it dead because she's responsible for the next
season.
And so she writes that and at the end of that episode they say
nope, we ain't going here.
We not going there.
So she kind of pushes away from romance.
I don't I don't quite get it.
No, I think she's pushing away from serialisation and that seems
to be her big thing.
We're not going to have ongoing plot lines.
Yeah.
So we can't do this.
And it's... look at her. stunning.
In fact, they both look gorgeous.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, you know, Marina gets better as she goes along as she's
allowed to be more marina and the warmth between them is really
very clear.
That podcast I listen to, right?
The Gates McFadden investigates, and she had Marina service on, and
it's so funny because she's really talking in her English accent.
She's there again, here, gatesy, gate seat.
I'm moving back to England because you can't get work at my age
over here in America, you know, like even the chemistry of real
life between them is marvellous, you know?
She's so wonderful.
I kind of feel like it's a wasted opportunity because I think
really good things could have been done with this relationship
between these two.
Like both both subsequent series, like Voyager and Deep Space 9
actually do a proper job of dealing with their women.
Do you know what I mean?
They give women proper things to do.
They don't just resort to caring roles.
They aren't an afterthought, you know, I think DS9 was a reaction
to this, you know, because Kira and Dax are both, they have very
masculine qualities about them.
And they don't have the traditional sort of caring roles as well.
This is great.
I'm absolutely on board with the fog rolling in on the bridge.
I think that's all that's great.
You know, let's have that.
That's really great.
That's Star Trek.
They're all confused.
They're all throwing techno babble at it.
Yeah, they're just talking about...
Honestly.
Do you know what they, during they see a Nick, this in DS9, during
when they did the fog on the promenade.
It turned out it was Lars, the shape, the shapeshifter.
Oh, the shapeshifter, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And all that fog sucks back in and he becomes the person again.
It was amazing.
Yeah, what a creep.
This looks great.
O'Brien is just going, ooh, this is really creepy.
I'm walking through a shapeshift, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
You've got Martok in your pants.
Is it Martok?
It is my dog.
Yeah, JJ has like, yeah.
Very different.
When I 1st heard that, I could not really...
Yeah.
Oh, here we go.
More technical.
Yeah, yeah.
This is impossible.
They're not even backup system.
Oh, here we go.
Ned Quint's about to get it.
But look at these look at these panels, right?
There's nothing that moves.
They just light on and off.
There's no...
What is he doing on the back concept?
He's just like, he's just like tugging at the set.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's trying to kill us all, Nathan.
Oh, that stunt.
Oh, there he is.
Oh, that stunt.
Whoa ho.
No, but he was killed by the space lightning, though.
I don't think was just a bonus.
I mean, anyone is really trying at this point. in next chance
run.
Because I'm telling you now, in a year's time.
John Frakes would direct the 2nd part of past tense, yeah, where
he has soldiers storm that building and like, you know, there's
bullets flying and it's really exciting.
Like, well, what the fuck was that in falling down that
staircase?
We're just like, oh, we'll just put any old shit out now. watch
it.
Yeah, they're invested in these people.
Yeah.
I realise I'm sounding a bit critical right now, but I am enjoying
this.
Oh, here's our one chance to see Dr. Bev doing what she normally
does, just coming in with a medical tricorder.
This is all we normally see of her in a normal episode.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, you see that the man behind her there?
He's in a few episodes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But generally speaking, he just does that.
Yeah, he he hands all the hypersprays and touches panels and
things, you know.
Just in late seasons, though, like not early on, I think.
Well, Alyssa's, you know, getting married and having children and
things, you know, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I really like her, you know Yeah, I do too.
We don't really find out much about it, do we?
No.
Well, it's so rare to have a secondary character on this show.
There was a reaction against that with DS9 as well.
Yeah, yeah.
It's like there's basically 7 people here. do all the jobs.
Look at his hair.
Like, it's not just that stupid nose.
It's his hair as well.
The whole thing is just...
His clothes are so perfectly tailored all the time as well, isn't
it?
Very strange.
But, oh, dear.
Oh, this is great.
Okay, now, now, She's kind of desperate for him now, isn't she?
He's taken that to a real high is a pleasure.
No, but isn't she, isn't she coming in to get Ronan to explain
what happened to Quint?
Isn't she come down?
But this is the secret.
I must talk to you.
There's been an accident.
Yeah.
So she's come down to kind of tell him off because you killed that
horrible... guy.
He grabs hold on now, Nathan, in quite a violent way.
Like he grabs her in.
It's it's all a bit.
Yeah.
Oh, he's so oily.
Yuck.
It's not easy for me to take corporeal form, Nathan.
But I'm here for you.
Don't bother.
Look at me.
That was rude.
I want you to light the candle.
Is that euphemism?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's definitely you.
Okay, just really look at her.
Oh, look, she's like, my dog does that.
That's so yucky.
I don't think anyone's ever touched my face like that, and it's
given me that much pleasure, though, if I'm honest.
Unless his whole touch is just like, you know, pure pleasure.
Yuck.
Yeah.
But that's it.
She's coming to tell him off because he's killed someone and now
she's completely just ugh.
You see that lie?
He had that, the power transfer.
Power transfer being. can travel along it.
Renee Chivarius says here.
I can still reduce Brandon Bragger to shudders when I go into his
office and say, I can travel along the power transfer beam.
It's so bad.
Oh, dear.
Oh, yuck.
She's touching her lips. lustrous way.
Is that it now?
Is she is she completely under his thrall now?
No, but isn't his, isn't his space thing?
Isn't his?
Yeah, well, that's it.
I don't know.
But I thought a swirly space thing went up a Jaxi at some point.
And then she starts.
Isn't that what's happening?
You know, in the child, where the, where the child, in series 2
episode one, the little Tinker Bell goes along the Enterprise
photo.
Twinkly light.
Yeah, it goes up into her pants.
But here he turns into a swirly green thing and kind of just
slumps into her lap.
Oh, here, it's here.
Are we on the ship now?
Oh, I think she plays this scene quite well, you know. where she
comes in and gets on the bed and she's all a bit anxious and...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I think it's not her performance.
It's the problem.
It's that she's so pathetic.
Like, she's so pathetic.
No, because in that Gothic fact, they're always under the
completely under the influence.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Look at how he's grabbing her now.
Yeah, oh, oh.
Yeah, like why isn't she screaming or biting his hands?
This entire commentary is you going, ugh.
Yuck, yuck.
Oh, my God.
Oh, take care of you Beverly.
Oh, you will feel love.
Like you've never felt before.
I've used that line a few times.
I'm not gonna lie.
Yeah, we all do. works every time.
Well, here we go.
So now he's turned into a green swirly ghost.
Yeah, yeah.
And then he's just fading into her.
And Yeah, very slowly.
It's very odd though, isn't it?
Isn't it odd that this anaphasic energy, like, has this knock on
effect of...
Oh, I don't I've stopped paying any attention to that.
Oh, look now.
So now she's dressed up properly like a Gothic, you know, fancy
yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Although I like her shoes, I have to say.
Actually I quite like the outfit.
The way she delivers that line.
He's like, Beverly, what's this?
Why, this plays everything.'m leaving.
Goodbye.
Energise.
Straight to the point there.
Oh my god.
Like, I mean, are we supposed to be buying any of this?
She's quitting.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, she she has tried to quit this season once already.
No, it was in series six.
Series 6, she quits.
That's suspicious.
And Guidan talks her out of it, yeah.
That's right, yeah.
Which would have been Whoopi Goldberg's last appearance aside from
if it hadn't have been for this season of Picard.
No, no, no, she's in generations.
Oh, forgot about that.
That scene in the bar in Picard was amazing.
Fantastic.
I got all the feels watching that.
Yeah, yeah.
And now, look, see, now, look, we're literally going through the
motions of like Deanna Troy coming in and going, well, you know, I
told I told her she was actually a character, and it's all a bit
weird.
Why don't you go down to the planet?
Like, we know all of this.
This is all just absolute filler.
We saw it.
She's explaining to him the things that we saw happen. you know
like, what?
Can I say, right?
We had 7 fucking years of these characters acting out of character
every time they go for a nebula, every time they go to a planet.
You think they'd be better at reading the science by now, wouldn't
you?
Yeah, well, like, you know, you're not...
Have you been taken over?
Picard.
Picard wants to fucking nebula in series one and he like, he, he, I
don't think he beans himself off the bridge.
That's what's happening.
Lonely among us.
I'll become one with the fabulous anomaly. bone.
It's boning.
Yeah, exactly.
The Beverly and him are going to become one.
Then he turns the whole of the bridge into fabulous blue
lightning.
It's amazing.
It's great seeing you.
You can tell by this point, Patrick Stewart in series one.
He's just like, what am I doing here?
What is this script?
I was doing Royal Shakespeare at one point.
Oh, see, look, we're back in the graveyard at night.
Oh my god.
Is this the climax now?
We there already?
No, we've got a cut to the flicking herself off in front of the
boss scene.
Okay.
Interesting though.
If you turn this on now.
If you turn this on, you would not think this was Star Trek the
Next Generation, I mean, you can see data there in the background
but, you know...
But other shows attempting to, well, I guess Buffy is attempting
to do graveyards in the studio, isn't it?
But not at all.
When the old woman comes out, right?
They've clearly just got this like geriatric day player to come
in.
Just say the line.
Say the line.
Beverly.
I reckon she was probably a movie star in the 1930s.
No, now they would do that.
Now they would bring in someone amazing just for those free lines
you know?
They'd be like, let's get some great.
Judy Denshin to play Beverly Crush's grandmother.
Dead grandma.
I bet if we looked at that woman's CV.
She's been a murder, she wrote, you know.
Quincy QC, whatever it's got.
Oh, okay.
So this is the scene that everybody remembers because this is
Beverly Crusher, essentially masturbating as Picard walks in on
her.
I had no idea I could feel this way.
Yeah, but it's so, it's horny, isn't it?
Is that how women, like, I don't see...
Yeah, I've never seen women.
But is that what they do?
I don't know.
If there are any listeners too untitled Star Trek properties, that
happen to be straight.
If you could get in touch with us and let us know.
Yeah, don't.
Please don't.
Look, look, look, the shot is literally of her arriving in the
chair.
He actually looks like, I'm not going to interrupt for a second.
I'm just gonna watch this.
Stop it.
Stop it at once.
And then he says, Emily.
Yeah, but why did he do it before?
Why didn't you just go, I can see you're busy.
I'll be back.
As proof that she is up to no good.
She, like, grabs her rogue and tells herself herself because she's
been caught. absolutely plays it like that.
Oh my god.
Apparently, apparently the cast loved doing this one.
I think they like anything that was a bit out of the norm, you
know?
Well, it's like the killing game a few weeks ago when we were
talking about how much fun the Voyager cast had doing dress-ups in
World War 2 things.
I mean, of course they like doing this, but, oh, God.
I actually can't see the difference, although she is with her
eyes.
She is looking very contact lensy.
Maybe my screen's too small.
I just don't think she's ever looked more beautiful.
You know, they're really stunning.
Let her hair down.
Did you know, right?
There's a bit of trivia. forgot to drop.
On the gravestones in the graveyard.
They've given, they're all covered in famous movie characters.
One of them is called Vader.
One of them is called McFly.
I think we'll see McFly.
I did see McFly.
So I'll point that out because I think I know where that is.
They don't mind putting in these little Easter eggs.
There's one episode of Star Trek, you know, where they put in all
the names of the actors that have played Doctor Who on a pad.
Yeah, the neutral zone.
Yeah.
I think they've fixed that for the high date, high definition
version.
Do you know what the word Ronan means in Japanese?
Isn't it a sort of solitary wandering warrior of some kind
something?
A little less excited.
Drifting person.
Oh, no, no, but I think it is, I think they're a warrior sort of
thing or something.
It's a thing.
But, I mean, like, why isn't he called Jock or, you know, if, like
something like that, Shooey.
Like, we are on the planet of the Scottish stereotype.
Somehow he was called Ronan in 1647 or whenever the fuck he
reckons he was born.
Now they're in a 2 shot.
I've only just noticed the height, discrepancy between Duncan
Raker and Gauge McFan.
Well, that's part of it though, isn't it?
A taller controlling man, you know, like that's a thing.
Oh, God his hair.
It's so bad.
It's really bad.
What happened to him?
Patrick Stewart was asked to sell some pretty astonishing scenes
in the next generation's run, wasn't he?
Yeah, yeah.
Like you said, you know, I know you said in the past, you know, you
rate him as an actor, but you don't rate him quite as hard as
anyone else.
I feel like he's a massive success when he's selling scenes like
this.
Yeah, yeah.
Holding his shit together in something like this.
Oh, no.
Oh.
So hang on.
So, so, can I just ask that?
Because, like, obviously, when the green light goes into Beverly
Yeah, she's experiencing great pleasure.
It's the same thing just happened to Picard.
Has he just had like so much pleasure that he's...
That's killing him, like killed dead.
You've been paying attention.
So he's got sex mode and killing people mode.
And so here, do you know what I mean?
Like there is, there's the bones of an idea about her escaping an
abusive, controlling relationship by remembering who she is and
who she cares about.
But, you know, and she does get to shoot him dead, which awesome
you know, I'm super into that ending.
Oh my god.
Great, it's my favourite performance in that.
Leave her alone.
Yeah, it's sub-rosa. is it Latin?
Yeah, yeah.
So it means like under the rose bush or something.
So I don't know why it's used to refer to a clandestine
relationship, like an affair or something like that.
Yeah.
I was supposed to say, oh, having a clandestine relationship
aren't they?
Well, and well, certainly all of her female ancestors.
Oh, what if Ronan killed Mum?
What if Ronan killed Beverly's mum?
Oh no, because she wasn't biologically compatible.
And so he had to keep boning the centenarian?
The old woman?
It is very possible.
The old woman has been unveiled now.
Here's Nana.
Yeah, she...
She's doing some great corpse acting, I have to say.
It's very impressive. the most demanding thing.
Oh, here we go.
Her eyes open.
Green eyes.
It's so I'm sorry, the action is just so lame.
She literally just touches them and they're like, oh, they fall
down.
Maybe that's Ronan.
Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, they just fall over a bit.
It's fine.
Can I say the line?
Beverly.
Have trust in me.
Gates is screaming right off.
Ah, Nan is dead.
This is so...
Beverly, forgive me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah It's so great.
It's so good.
Like, what comes of this?
If there was some attempt to make this bee about anything, it
seems to be a valuable moral lesson about the perils of anaphasic
energy.
But like, like, it's not about anything.
Who cares about that though?
rules of anaphasic energy.
That's what they should have been called.
I could see that slapped on a romantic novel cover.
It's extremely unstable, Joe. So it's more sex law.
Don't worry about it You've been using me.
Nana.
My entire family for centuries.
But is that a bad thing?
It must have been a bad thing because he's a really rapey
controlling creep, right?
But we don't go there.
No, they still don't condemn him in that last scene.
She says my nana was really happy and I'm a bit jealous is what
she says in my life. what is that?
Like, it's like, ugh, yeah.
Like, I would love to...
Like, how do these guys talk?
What we learn in this episode is that Beverly Crusher just has a
very strange, like fantasy life, you know, like...
Who else does she have sex with?
She has sex with her trill?
Yeah.
Well, I think she, doesn't she get off with Picard in the naked
now?
Yeah.
Well, everyone gets off with everyone.
That's a thing.
Yeah, no, she just...
She doesn't get much, if I'm honest.
No, okay.
Well, that appear.
She's desperate for any passing ghost to come and give her a
look.
Oh my god.
Okay.
You always say to you that gays McFadden looks off screen and
completely vacant.
Look at her right now.
She's doing it right now, that kind of like blank look.
Yeah, because she's back to her normal selves.
So she's doing her normal Beverly Crusher acting.
Yeah.
So it turns out it's a deliberate choice.
Oh, thank Christ, he's dead.
I love you.
Oh, shut up.
I said earlier, imagine switch. imagine switching it on during
this climax.
I'm being like, well, this show's gone downhill.
I won't watch this.
Well, and you'd be right.
Oh, she's there like hugging herself and crying.
Yeah, on the plastic grass.
Oh, I love this.
Look, the cars wrap up.
Dr Crusher's recovery will be of a personal nature.
But we have defeated the anaphasic energy.
So it's all okay.
Who reads these logs?
Do you think Admiral Lachev is reading that?
Click what's going on?
Yeah, someone's got a ticket off, aren't they?
Yeah.
Job for somebody at Starflate.
No, they probably see it coming through and go, what's this?
What's been happening on the Enterprise now?
We need to get that shit back into Space Doc fast.
Oh, I think Beverly's got a Singapore sling there.
That's classy.
It's very nice.
They saw it in Singapore.
I don't know.
Oh it's a drink.
Sorry.
Yeah. bra.
Sorry.
No, I don't know about those.
Yeah, there's a part of me that's a little sad.
Sure, he made me quit my job and tried to kill my friends.
And touch me, that's all. inappropriately.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. whatever else he might have done.
Like, what?
made her very happy.
But that, but that's being written by...
That is being reared by a team.
So he's basically...
So we've learned nothing today.
Today we've learned about anaphasic energy.
Today we've learned that Star Trek should not do Gothic
fantasies.
Well, no, I don't think we've learned that, and that's absolutely
what I don't think we've learned.
But I think we've learned that this Star Trek shouldn't do Gothic
fantasies because...
It's terrible.
No, I don't think so, but I just think the failure to make this
about anything other than the kind of superficial tropes and just
the problematic nature of the whole thing because no one's really
thinking about what's happening and, you know, Braga.
Do you remember the episode of DS9?
I don't think it's a terrible episode, but it's so problematic.
It's in series 7 and it's the one where Serena of the the jackpack
gets her voice back.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
She's patient and he seduces her as her doctor.
And no one says to him, this is really wrong what you're doing.
It's kind of essentially what's happening here as well.
I don't think there's anyone in sort of 90s trek there to be able
to say, do you know what?
This is really problematic.
We're putting on the screen.
You know?
Do you know what's even more shocking?
Do you know what the next episode is after this?
Yeah, I do.
It's lower decks.
I really, really properly good episode.
I mean, how can you go from the ridiculous to the sublime?
No, it's incredible.
Yeah.
Unbelievable.
Well, I mean, it's a good show.
The, you know, the bones of it are good.
They can make great TV, but they just don't always succeed.
I'd say about half the time they don't always succeed.
Like that's unnecessarily cruel.
All right, it's time for us to choose our next episode, and so I'm
on untitled Star Trek project.com slash randomiser.
And I'm the one who has control this week after your abject
failure last week, Joe. I would not call it a failure after the
amount we've just laughed.
Okay?
Yeah, that's fair enough.
So I am going to do something unusual and you may wish to overrule
me, but I want to give Star Trek the next generation the chance to
redeem itself.
You're just going to do next year, again.
I am.
But I'm going to do it until we get a good episode because we did
yesterday's Enterprise is our 1st episode and all of the rest of
them have been...
All good things.
Well, you didn't lie out very much, but most people consider it a
classic.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, okay, fine.
That's right.
Although you do realise, don't you, that this is 90s track, 90s
track, 90s track.
We are going to have to either head to Kurtzman or original after
this.
Yeah, we'll have to do something different.
But, you know, I just can't leave the podcast in a state where
Star Trek.
The next generation is shat the bed so comprehensively.
Can't you change the random ices and then you can just select
certain seasons because if you just...
Well, not now, not by recording this.
All right.
Okay, here goes.
So this is series 6 and it's part 2 of a two-parter.
It's chain of command, which is obviously a pretty big deal, but
we've done a few TNG 2 parters, and I actually start to check out
in season six, which might be an interesting thing to talk about
but let's not do it next week.
Okay.
Press it again.
Another series, 6, episode 19, lessons with Australia's Wendy
Hughes as Picard's love interest.
Yeah, but it's another, it's a shitty romance.
It's certainly better than this, let's be honest.
Oh yeah, for sure.
And I think there's some really nice scenes in it.
And Wendy Hughes is some pretty good over.
I actually believe the relationship and that's half the battle
with...
And we never see her or mention her again.
Not this one.
Well, you know how this was the planet of terrible Scottish
stereotypes.
Oh, don't tell me it's up in the long ladder.
It's up the line.
Oh no, we can't go from that to that.
We can't go through that.
The worst thing you could possibly press off for that one is code
of honour.
Yeah, yeah.
Maybe Star Trek the Next Generation is a bit shit.
Just a sec.
This is series 5, episode 15.
It is very much business as usual.
It's not a great classic, but it's good and reasonably solid.
It's power play.
I love power play.
Oh, my God.
This is one of my, and I'll tell you what, right?
This will give me a chance to have at you about how well directed
90s trek can be.
I think this one is actually pretty dynamically directed.
David Liverson, and he's really nice.
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's Marina 30s being an evil bitch, which is always amazing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, awesome.
Let's do that.
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
You can find us online at untitledstar trekproject.com where you
can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 7th of April 2022 and released on
the 15th of April.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek, the next generation
PowerPlay.