WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-01 at 20:58:47

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Hey, Joe. Hi.

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So, we're doing Voyager again.

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So soon after our last Voyager, but this best, aren't we?

4
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Honestly.

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But this is a very special episode.

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Yeah, this was billed as a very special episode.

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And in fact, UPN insisted that this went out, as 2 episodes, as a

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movie, as like a, you know, like, as like a rating event.

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And it worked.

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I don't think the ratings were spectacular, but they definitely

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saw a spike upwards, so there was some interest around this.

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Yeah, so this is one 90 minute episode.

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We're obviously not going to do it that way today because we are

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stuck with Netflix and Paramount+ and they've been divided into 2

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episodes kind of for syndication or whatever.

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But it is a one big event.

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And it's something that Voyager starts to do at this point.

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We've done it once already this season with the hotel with some

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Kurtwood Smith, isn't it?

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Which is probably the best event episode they did.

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Oh, do you think?

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Oh, God, yeah.

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I mean, and that was supposed to have been a season-long arc.

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That was pitched as a season-long arc and Paramount just went no

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way.

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And so they had to truncate it into 2 episodes and it's 2

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fantastic episodes, which takes that premise of Voyager alone in

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space against like an implacable photo that are going to take them

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down and the ship's torn to pieces to our point where she has to

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blow the bloody ship up to reset the whole thing.

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Oh, that's amazingly good.

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Amazingly good.

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Yeah.

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And I mean, it becomes something that Voyager, sort of does from

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here on in.

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Yeah, they did what else did they do?

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Dark Frontier.

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Yeah, I remember that being heavily trailed.

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And that sort of retreads the stuff from the raven.

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Their sort of workforce.

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Oh, workforces.

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That's really, you know what?

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Worth Force is desperately underrated.

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I'd love to see it again.

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I thought it was good at the time.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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It's just very competently written, active and made, and not a lot

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of Voyager is that good in that last season.

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Yeah.

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And it has something to say, doesn't it?

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Like, it struck me as a kind of, you know, the lotus eaters, uh, in

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the odyssey, some of Odysseus' men go and taste the lotus, they go

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among the lotus eaters, and they taste the lotus, and it makes

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them forget their destination, and so they're happy.

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They're enjoying themselves, but they're not travelling home

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anymore with Odysseus and Odysseus gets really cross and drags

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them home and they have to resume their journey.

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And so it's that, but it's also a sort of critique of capitalism

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you know, like kind of obviously.

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Plus also, you know, a chance for the regulars to play different

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roles for the 90s of time, you know.

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Which is what we get here.

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We get to this point where it's like, well, these characters are

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so boring.

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Let's just make them other people every other way.

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But what they do here is really something special, I think.

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I didn't really rate this super highly before, but my memory of it

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was pretty dim.

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I definitely watched it at the time.

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But I thought this was really properly solid and interesting.

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And that it wasn't just spectacle, but it was, it was kind of

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spectacle on a 90 straight budget.

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It's mostly spectacle this, isn't it?

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I know you're going to hit me with some themes and, you know, and

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I know you're much kinder about the resolution than I am.

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And I do want to go into that when we get there.

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Because I think there's a good reason why I react badly to that

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resolution.

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But this, I think this is expensive.

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I think you can see the money in this.

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Like they're trying more ambitious special effects.

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We're out on location, which, you know, we don't do as often.

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Paramount backlot anyway.

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Okay, but it's dressed up.

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We've got new sets, loads of new costumes, like they've thrown a

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lot.

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What's interesting is, if you read the behind the scenes of this

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They've done a fair few blockbusters in series 4 already, and

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apparently the entire production crew was exhausted at this

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point.

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And then they were like, well, now we're going to make this

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massive movie blockbuster, you know?

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But I think they do a bloody good job.

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I've done a complete sort of 180 with this because I went back and

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read my review of my block and boy, it was like grumpy.

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I think I could, like a 5 out of 10 saying, no, all style, no

97
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substance and all this stuff. is substance.

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It certainly is, yes.

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Now, I think this stands up as just a very entertaining 2 episodes

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of Voyager.

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And there's nothing wrong with that, you know?

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No.

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Because I'll tell you what. of them are really shit.

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That's right.

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That's right.

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If it's not making you furious, then it's a success.

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Oh, God, do you remember that episode, Fury?

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When Kes came back?

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Oh, God.

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I don't have any sense. all that.

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Oh, yeah, please.

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Please, please.

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This was series 4.

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We've already talked about Kate Mulgrew and Jerry Ryan and their

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particularly friendly relationship at this point.

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By all accounts, Jerry Ryan was very sick at this point in the

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season.

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And she's quoted as saying she had like every other day, she had a

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new, you know, illness hitting her cold bronchitis, like she was

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exhausted.

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She was sleeping like 3 hours a day, working 16 hour days, man, she

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is fantastically good in this.

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Somebody that's exhausted and sick, you know, there's just no sign

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of it at all.

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When we did the Raven, we said that Jerry Ryan hadn't kind of

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settled on her final performance. but it's here and it's only a

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few episodes later.

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It's a handful of episodes later, less than half a season, I

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think.

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And we're in a position where Kate Mulgrew is playing a character

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in the holodeck that has a very contentious relationship with the

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7 of 9 character on the holiday.

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So I don't think there's any fucking pretence at all in their

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scenes.

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I'm not happy you're here and my character's not happy you're here

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and I'm going to be bloody toxic.

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I may have to kill you.

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Yeah She may have to kill her.

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Yeah.

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I think we should start watching.

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All right, I'll count us in then.

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Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

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Here we go.

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So, I'm...

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I think this is a bitch.

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So this is Janeway and very clearly Janeway in a Klingon, like in

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full Klingon latex with a bat left, fighting these Klingons, who

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will come back in part 2 when the money starts to run out.

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And they're really boring.

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And like this, I think this is a bit shit, actually, because it's

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a sort of shock.

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Um, it's a shock teaser.

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Like, there's nothing...

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It's clear, isn't it?

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It's very clear, immediately, though.

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But you know what?

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I think every time they put one of the regulars as a Klingon

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character and they did it in DS9, didn't it?

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was Cisco O'Brien and oh God, who was it?

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An Odo, sorry, in series 5, um, a Cisco was amazing as a Klingon

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because, you know, he basically just grunts his way through a lot

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of those scenes anyway.

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But January, Kate Mulgrew is madly over the top in this scene

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isn't she?

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I'm wrong once prey.

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You know, like, really going for it.

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But I'll tell you what I do like is the fact that they cut to the

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chase and haven't shown us the boring takeover of the ship.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, we have to assume it, and it is actually addressed in

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dialogue.

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There's like 2 lines of dialogue saying, I think 7 says that she

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remembers being in a firefight and then nothing else or whatever.

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And so, but all of that stuff is super boring.

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It's just established.

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But I think the reason is that we have 2 resistance is taking

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place at the same time.

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And one is fictional on the holodeck and then the other one's

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fictional on our televisions and we will see, you know, for

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instance, 7 is involved in the holodeck resistance and Harry's

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involved in the other fictional one.

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Um, And I guess that's why I think this tease is a bit cheap and a

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bit shit because it's not really about anything that the episode's

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about and it is just there to present a shock, I guess.

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So we're just kind of scratching our head saying, what's going

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on?

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Another reason it's quite cheap is because they're using standard

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trek cave set number 52.

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You know?

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Yeah, yeah. like the one tree, you know?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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There's a bit of a root hanging down.

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I think that those scenes are embarrassingly shit and they're the

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worst thing. get worse in the 2nd episode.

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I'm telling you now Oh, yeah, yeah. when Paul even suffers the

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ignominy of not only wearing his Neelix makeup, but they slap on a

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load of Klingon makeup.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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He has a different teeth.

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He says in an interview, he goes, it was like being in a bloody

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oven.

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Oh, yeah, just...

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Okay, can we talk about the herosion, please?

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Because I'm not too sure about these people, you know.

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So they came in a few episodes ago.

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So we had Hunter's Hunter.

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Hunters, then prey, and then we stop and do, I think it's called

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retrospect, and then we come into the killing game.

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So they've been introduced a few weeks ago.

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I think they have a really good distinctive look.

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Uh, you know, they're rubbery Star Trek aliens.

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It's always going to be something like that.

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But I think that they have a distinctive look.

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And I also like their demeanour.

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They're very reserved.

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They're not like Cleons.

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They're not shouty or anything like that.

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And this guy in particular is very thoughtful.

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Doesn't that annoy you?

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They bring in these aliens for like 3 or 4 episodes and then

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actually, no, what's more annoying is that they then come back in

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series 7.

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Once the ships kind of moved on about 30,000 light years and oh

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hang on like that.

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I need to be quiet a second.

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I like how the hair clip is a bit borgy.

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So she turns around.

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Like that that glittery hair clip reminds you of a sort of Borg

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implant.

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And so, this is 7 singing in the bar.

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And, like, she won't knock your socks off, but I think she's

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pretty good.

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And of course, she's...

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Well, when they when she sings you are my sunshine in Series 5

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someone's watch over me.

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Yeah, that's true.

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Her voice is very, very good.

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But she's kind of in there with Robert Micardo and yeah, yeah

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beautiful together.

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However, I'm not sure she's ever looked sexier than she does in

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these things.

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Oh, he's beautiful.

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And this, like, it's so great.

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It's so great having 7 do that.

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Now, have a look at this scene, right?

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We're in the bar.

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There's wine, there's singing, and the Nazis are there.

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Um, and eventually we're going to have our lead guy here.

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Our lead, our hero Herogan, who has a name, but I've misplaced

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it.

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And I'll talk more about that a little bit later.

252
00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:31.440
She's really good, isn't she?

253
00:12:31.500 --> 00:12:33.000
Oh, seven.

254
00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:34.500
No, no.

255
00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:36.720
Now I've Katrine on the screen.

256
00:12:36.779 --> 00:12:38.159
Oh, she's marvellous in this room.

257
00:12:38.220 --> 00:12:40.679
And I love what she's wearing, that white suit.

258
00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:45.659
No, no, she's sort of power lesbian from World War II.

259
00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:48.120
She really is.

260
00:12:48.179 --> 00:12:48.960
Yeah, yeah.

261
00:12:49.019 --> 00:12:50.820
There's no hint at all.

262
00:12:50.940 --> 00:12:54.360
So she fancies anyone but 7 of 9 left because, yeah, yeah.

263
00:12:54.419 --> 00:12:58.259
The energy crackles, but there's a lot of that out there, you know

264
00:12:58.259 --> 00:13:01.259
on the internet, you know, these pictures of Janeway and 7 of

265
00:13:01.259 --> 00:13:01.500
nine.

266
00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:02.940
Oh, yeah, of course.

267
00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:04.259
Honestly, of course around.

268
00:13:05.340 --> 00:13:09.120
But I, I was reading an interview with one of the writers and

269
00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:13.679
they're basically saying that this is, um, Kate Mile Group, being

270
00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:17.580
Humphrey Bogart in, in a World War II assessing.

271
00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:19.559
And it kind of is, isn't it?

272
00:13:19.620 --> 00:13:21.059
Oh, she's...

273
00:13:21.059 --> 00:13:24.120
Like, she might have had a lot of complaints about Jerry Ryan

274
00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:29.340
coming in, but I think the knock on effect is that Janeway is even

275
00:13:29.340 --> 00:13:30.299
more impressive.

276
00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:31.320
Yeah, yeah.

277
00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:35.100
When, you know, and and I do think it's because of their scenes

278
00:13:35.100 --> 00:13:35.399
together.

279
00:13:35.460 --> 00:13:38.279
And in this, they just sizzle together.

280
00:13:38.340 --> 00:13:39.480
Yeah.

281
00:13:39.539 --> 00:13:41.879
She and gosh, Jerry's good.

282
00:13:41.940 --> 00:13:43.500
She's singing again.

283
00:13:43.980 --> 00:13:45.840
So great.

284
00:13:45.899 --> 00:13:48.899
But it's like 11 doesn't best the other.

285
00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:50.279
They complicated.

286
00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:50.759
No, no.

287
00:13:50.820 --> 00:13:53.340
That's what that's what the actresses should have been seeing. you

288
00:13:53.340 --> 00:13:54.720
know, is how good they are together.

289
00:13:55.259 --> 00:13:57.299
Ah, bless them.

290
00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:00.779
And they're both back in Star Trek right now as we speak.

291
00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:01.860
It's so good.

292
00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:06.840
I think there was a, there was a similar tension initially when

293
00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:08.700
Michael Dawn came into DS9.

294
00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:09.480
Yeah.

295
00:14:10.500 --> 00:14:10.919
A bit.

296
00:14:10.980 --> 00:14:14.759
I think that cast all kind of rallied around him and said, well

297
00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:17.759
let's make the best of it, and let's all do fantastic work, you

298
00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:18.059
know?

299
00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:21.059
Whereas poor Jerry Ryan just wasn't allowed to have a toilet

300
00:14:21.059 --> 00:14:21.419
break.

301
00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:22.679
Yeah.

302
00:14:22.740 --> 00:14:28.200
So, so he's our hero, uh, Hirogen, and he's dressed as a Nazi.

303
00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:32.519
And so there's already this sort of blending of the 2 fictions, the

304
00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:36.600
Star Trek aliens fiction and the World War II resistance one.

305
00:14:38.759 --> 00:14:41.100
And it...

306
00:14:41.100 --> 00:14:48.419
And there's something about the way that our main herogen, the

307
00:14:48.419 --> 00:14:51.539
commandant, enjoys this environment that I think is super

308
00:14:51.539 --> 00:14:52.080
important.

309
00:14:52.139 --> 00:14:55.799
So they're hunters, we've seen them.

310
00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:58.679
They live on their own, do they?

311
00:14:58.740 --> 00:15:00.659
They just live on these ships.

312
00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:06.539
They live on a adorned. with like the victims, the skulls.

313
00:15:06.779 --> 00:15:08.820
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

314
00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:11.639
Skulls hanging on the fucking walls and stuff.

315
00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:17.100
But I think, you know, it is very Klingon, most aliens are sort of

316
00:15:17.100 --> 00:15:20.220
Klingon knockoffs, particularly in Voyager, aren't they?

317
00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:21.659
Like the Kazon.

318
00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:25.740
But there's a kind of reserve to these guys.

319
00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:28.080
They're very kind of low key.

320
00:15:28.139 --> 00:15:33.539
And this guy, our main guy, has a great voice, I think.

321
00:15:33.659 --> 00:15:34.919
Yeah, he really does.

322
00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:36.299
And you know what?

323
00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:37.679
I think he, you're right.

324
00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:39.179
He is quite a thoughtful character.

325
00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:43.139
What's interesting about like the development of the story is, you

326
00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:44.700
remember Joe Manosky?

327
00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:45.840
I mentioned him a lot.

328
00:15:45.899 --> 00:15:49.080
You know, Joe Manosky of Masks, in for me.

329
00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:49.620
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

330
00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:53.039
Any any oddball episode, Joe Manosky's there.

331
00:15:53.100 --> 00:15:56.100
Well, they were trying to entice him back into Star Trek, right?

332
00:15:56.159 --> 00:15:57.299
And he was determined.

333
00:15:57.480 --> 00:15:59.460
Well, he's like, well, I want to do a Well Wazoo story.

334
00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:02.700
I want our characters all dressed up and we're going to do Nazis

335
00:16:02.700 --> 00:16:03.480
and blah, blah, blah.

336
00:16:03.539 --> 00:16:05.759
And they were just like, well, we're going to have to do this, all

337
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:06.000
right?

338
00:16:06.059 --> 00:16:08.220
Like, we don't know how and where this can fit in.

339
00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:10.440
Then season 4 came along.

340
00:16:10.500 --> 00:16:14.039
Then the herosion came in and they were like, okay, we could do

341
00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:14.460
this now.

342
00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:18.600
We've got like a set of villains who fight.

343
00:16:18.659 --> 00:16:19.740
Let's, yeah.

344
00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:23.159
And initially, it was all going to be set down on a planet.

345
00:16:23.940 --> 00:16:26.159
The World War 2 planet.

346
00:16:26.220 --> 00:16:28.980
Well, I mean, that's what the original series would have done

347
00:16:28.980 --> 00:16:29.100
right?

348
00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:30.299
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

349
00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:32.879
They just happen to, you know, have these documents and this is

350
00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:35.580
how they, you know, they based their whole life on it or something

351
00:16:35.580 --> 00:16:35.940
like that.

352
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:36.720
But no.

353
00:16:36.779 --> 00:16:41.639
And then Kenneth Biller, who I think took over as like showrunner

354
00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:42.539
in series 7.

355
00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:46.379
He says, he said, no, why don't we send it on Voyager, why don't

356
00:16:46.379 --> 00:16:47.340
we use the holodecks?

357
00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:50.159
And then the killing game started to emerge.

358
00:16:50.220 --> 00:16:50.639
Yeah.

359
00:16:50.700 --> 00:16:52.320
Well, I mean, look at this guy.

360
00:16:52.379 --> 00:16:56.759
He's drinking the wine that Janeway has provided that Katrina has

361
00:16:56.759 --> 00:16:57.419
provided.

362
00:16:57.419 --> 00:16:59.580
He's been enjoying 7 singing.

363
00:16:59.580 --> 00:17:03.179
And that's going to lead somewhere, I think.

364
00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:04.380
It really is.

365
00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:07.680
And but like what they said was initially this was going to be

366
00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:10.259
like, you know, Cowboys versus Indians or rather, resistance

367
00:17:10.259 --> 00:17:11.279
versus Nazis.

368
00:17:11.339 --> 00:17:13.019
And there was no ambition beyond that.

369
00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:14.519
That's what this episode is going to be.

370
00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:19.019
And then the writers realised, no, let's make one of these

371
00:17:19.019 --> 00:17:20.279
characters more thoughtful.

372
00:17:20.339 --> 00:17:24.299
Let's make give one of these characters a bit of depth and let's

373
00:17:24.299 --> 00:17:28.859
see if we can end this as you're going to tell me later. in a more

374
00:17:28.859 --> 00:17:31.140
interesting way than just a big bloody battle.

375
00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:32.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

376
00:17:32.940 --> 00:17:36.240
I think I think it's really, really good.

377
00:17:36.299 --> 00:17:38.039
Like oh, here we go.

378
00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:41.099
All the daggers are out.

379
00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:41.640
Here we go.

380
00:17:41.700 --> 00:17:42.599
Yeah, these things.

381
00:17:42.779 --> 00:17:45.119
Look at Mulgrew's face.

382
00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:48.720
I'm gonna tear your face off in a minute.

383
00:17:48.779 --> 00:17:50.519
I know there's a little smile there.

384
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:55.140
That's... but yes, it is them arguing.

385
00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:57.000
They put you in that silver catsuit.

386
00:17:57.059 --> 00:18:01.920
Now they've put you in this gorgeous period dress. lipstick and

387
00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:05.220
you're singing, you know, you could have been more womanly if you

388
00:18:05.220 --> 00:18:05.460
tried.

389
00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:07.559
Look at her hair as well.

390
00:18:07.619 --> 00:18:08.339
It's fantastic.

391
00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:09.720
And what have they done?

392
00:18:09.779 --> 00:18:12.480
They've done the other way, is make Mulgrew very masculine, haven't

393
00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:12.660
they?

394
00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:13.619
Yeah.

395
00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:14.220
Yeah.

396
00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:14.759
Yeah, yeah.

397
00:18:14.819 --> 00:18:16.559
And she pulls it off.

398
00:18:16.619 --> 00:18:17.519
She looks terrific.

399
00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:21.960
But this is the dynamic as well between the lead Hirogen and the

400
00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:24.119
angry young Hirogen.

401
00:18:24.180 --> 00:18:27.480
You know, there's there's exactly the same dynamic.

402
00:18:27.539 --> 00:18:32.099
The lead herogen is thoughtful and calculating and careful, and

403
00:18:32.099 --> 00:18:36.660
the young one, you know, just wants to sort of stab these people

404
00:18:36.660 --> 00:18:40.140
and he's the one who grabbed Jerry's arm before and insisted that

405
00:18:40.140 --> 00:18:41.279
she continues singing.

406
00:18:41.339 --> 00:18:45.299
And that's exactly the same dynamic. like the most nuanced

407
00:18:45.299 --> 00:18:47.700
characterisation you're going to see in Star Trek, is it?

408
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:48.839
Oh, no, no, no.

409
00:18:49.259 --> 00:18:53.460
Basically, we have 3 guest Hirogen, and that's all we have.

410
00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:57.900
And we think that this is expensive, but basically we've just got

411
00:18:57.900 --> 00:18:58.980
the 3 guest actors.

412
00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:03.720
And one of them, the guy who we've already seen in the, in the um

413
00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:10.440
Sick Bay, the Dr. Hirogen, is uh, Mark Metcalfe, who played the

414
00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:12.599
master in series one of Buffy.

415
00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:14.220
Oh, is it really?

416
00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:16.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

417
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:19.920
Once you, once you know that, you, you'll...

418
00:19:19.980 --> 00:19:21.299
Our trivia be this time, Nathan.

419
00:19:22.980 --> 00:19:26.039
No, well, I saw his name in the opening credits.

420
00:19:26.099 --> 00:19:28.380
I saw Mark Matt Carf, and I thought, I know that name, and of

421
00:19:28.380 --> 00:19:29.339
course, it's from Buffy.

422
00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:30.299
You know what, right?

423
00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:32.160
Chvolt looks incredible in that suit.

424
00:19:32.220 --> 00:19:32.579
Okay.

425
00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:33.420
Oh my god.

426
00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:34.859
But what's annoying is, right?

427
00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:37.259
This is one time where he's playing another character.

428
00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:40.859
So he had a chance to emote like mad and they still have him

429
00:19:40.859 --> 00:19:41.579
playing, you know.

430
00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:44.880
I think Neil says at one point, oh, that's very logical of you.

431
00:19:44.940 --> 00:19:46.200
You know, it's like, oh, God.

432
00:19:46.259 --> 00:19:46.799
Yeah, yeah.

433
00:19:46.859 --> 00:19:48.480
It's still the same old Chewvok.

434
00:19:48.539 --> 00:19:49.559
He looks good.

435
00:19:49.619 --> 00:19:53.220
Well, no, no, he does look good, but he always does.

436
00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:54.119
Oh, here we go.

437
00:19:54.180 --> 00:19:57.000
Nearly cycling through the Paramount backlot.

438
00:19:57.059 --> 00:19:58.799
Yeah, yeah.

439
00:19:58.859 --> 00:20:00.480
It's marvellous.

440
00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:01.980
Smiling at everyone who goes first.

441
00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:03.839
Is this for people where they secure on that bike?

442
00:20:03.900 --> 00:20:06.359
Well, they pull out their pistols and we'll shoot him because I

443
00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:06.900
really love that bit.

444
00:20:09.720 --> 00:20:13.680
Oh, do you know, look how they've dressed this up.

445
00:20:13.740 --> 00:20:14.460
This looks good.

446
00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:15.180
Yeah, yeah.

447
00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:17.819
Oh, there's some California Hills in the background.

448
00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:19.859
But you know, there's French signs.

449
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:23.220
They've put shutters on the windows to make it look like France

450
00:20:23.220 --> 00:20:24.480
but they've only done it on 3 windows.

451
00:20:24.539 --> 00:20:24.839
Look.

452
00:20:24.900 --> 00:20:26.160
They can't even be wrong.

453
00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:29.099
Just the ones that are in shot. you know?

454
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:36.240
Now, here is angry, young, uh, angry young Nazi Hirogen and he's

455
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:36.900
Nazi friend.

456
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:40.380
Oh, as well as the 3 guest Hirogens.

457
00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:42.480
There is a guest Nazi.

458
00:20:43.140 --> 00:20:45.119
Oh, yeah.

459
00:20:45.180 --> 00:20:48.660
And he's quite a well-known theatre actor I was reading.

460
00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:50.400
Like he was quite a draw.

461
00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:55.740
He is Enterprises go to Nazis.

462
00:20:55.799 --> 00:21:00.480
So he plays a Nazi, like in stormfront or another one.

463
00:21:00.539 --> 00:21:02.759
He plays 2 different...

464
00:21:02.819 --> 00:21:04.259
He's just Nazi guy.

465
00:21:04.259 --> 00:21:08.880
And he is also a rubber faced alien of some sort, but I can't

466
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:09.720
remember which sort.

467
00:21:09.779 --> 00:21:12.180
So he's been in Star Trek a bit this guy.

468
00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:15.000
And I think we want to know, see, we'll pull in...

469
00:21:15.059 --> 00:21:16.380
I think his name is Paul J.

470
00:21:16.380 --> 00:21:17.640
Boemer or something like that.

471
00:21:17.700 --> 00:21:19.140
Yeah, that sounds right.

472
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.799
Oh, okay, so we've got Roxanne Dawson's pregnancy.

473
00:21:22.859 --> 00:21:25.259
So for once, she's not behind a console.

474
00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:27.359
Oh, of course she's really pregnant.

475
00:21:27.420 --> 00:21:30.000
This is the one time and she says in an interview.

476
00:21:30.059 --> 00:21:33.960
Memory Alpha, how delightful it was to actually just, you know, let

477
00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:35.819
it all spill out for one episode, you know?

478
00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:36.960
It's forgotten.

479
00:21:37.019 --> 00:21:38.099
Wow.

480
00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:40.079
Oh, did you think that was just a nice touch?

481
00:21:40.140 --> 00:21:44.339
Yeah, yeah, because it works because you have those. do you know

482
00:21:44.339 --> 00:21:44.700
what I mean?

483
00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:49.799
You had the French women who kind of collaborated with the Nazis

484
00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:53.400
you know, and who were horribly mistreated by, well, you know, they

485
00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:57.539
fucked Nazis, you know, kind of, but they were kind of punished

486
00:21:57.539 --> 00:21:59.640
and ostracised by people.

487
00:21:59.700 --> 00:22:00.779
Kate Mulgrew.

488
00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:03.480
It looks like I've stepped into an episode of Kate Love's a

489
00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:04.259
mystery, doesn't it?

490
00:22:04.980 --> 00:22:10.019
This is a very, I guess it's very period, that dress, but it's

491
00:22:10.019 --> 00:22:11.759
really not doing any famous.

492
00:22:11.819 --> 00:22:16.500
I just, I do think like there is like class is a word you could

493
00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:17.400
pin on this episode.

494
00:22:17.460 --> 00:22:19.200
It is very classy.

495
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:24.240
And it's just so nice to be in these sets away from those boring

496
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:25.619
voyages.

497
00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:26.579
Corridors.

498
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:27.359
Yeah, yeah.

499
00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:33.119
Although it is definitely like, I feel as if they've watched a few

500
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:35.759
episodes of Secret Army and a lower low before they've written

501
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:38.519
this, you know, every cliche is in there.

502
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:40.019
Yeah.

503
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:43.799
Well, I mean, because this isn't them doing World War II.

504
00:22:43.859 --> 00:22:48.119
This is them in a holodeck simulation of World War II.

505
00:22:48.180 --> 00:22:52.799
And I said recently when I was criticising an episode of Doctor

506
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:56.339
Who that was doing World War 2 that appallingly that they

507
00:22:56.339 --> 00:22:58.980
romanticised it in the most appalling way.

508
00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:01.019
But of course they can do that here, can't they?

509
00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:03.119
Yeah, yeah, because it's fiction.

510
00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:04.680
It's openly fiction.

511
00:23:04.740 --> 00:23:10.259
And so one of the interesting things about this is that the

512
00:23:10.259 --> 00:23:15.960
holodeck in in Voyager is a shared experience on the whole, isn't

513
00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:16.200
it?

514
00:23:16.259 --> 00:23:21.000
That they generally have these programs that, Well, I mean, not

515
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:30.240
the Lord fucking whatever Rebecca, that horrible one. series one.

516
00:23:30.299 --> 00:23:32.160
Yeah, it's so bad.

517
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:36.960
Do you remember, do you remember those fucking annoying kids?

518
00:23:37.019 --> 00:23:40.920
Oh, I hear you're our new governor.

519
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:46.920
That kid, the little the little the little blonde boy is in it in

520
00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:49.079
something like other Star Trek, isn't he?

521
00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:52.619
No, he is uglier than any alien we ever saw, though.

522
00:23:54.660 --> 00:23:56.759
He's probably hot by now.

523
00:23:56.819 --> 00:23:58.140
It's been a few years.

524
00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:00.240
Um, yeah.

525
00:24:00.299 --> 00:24:01.319
Oh my goodness.

526
00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:02.460
She's really pregnant.

527
00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:03.240
That's delightful.

528
00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:07.680
Well, that's what they did with Kate McFadden, wasn't it?

529
00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:10.920
They made Jason McFadden have that blue jacket.

530
00:24:10.980 --> 00:24:12.960
Yeah, so sure.

531
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:14.279
Yeah, her bum was covered.

532
00:24:14.339 --> 00:24:17.640
Yeah, no, but they give her that jacket with the with the tools in

533
00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:18.720
the in the top pocket.

534
00:24:18.779 --> 00:24:20.400
You know what I'm gonna say, don't you?

535
00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:28.380
Uh, they had a stupid space way of dealing with non-visitors.

536
00:24:28.380 --> 00:24:28.980
Pregnancy.

537
00:24:28.980 --> 00:24:32.339
She's been an interview.

538
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:36.720
Then our visitor says in an interview, how grateful she was, but

539
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:39.119
they actually, and they might not have done anything spectacular

540
00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:41.940
with it, but she could be bloody pregnant on the show.

541
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:42.900
There's one episode.

542
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:45.059
I don't know if you remember There's one episode where she beats

543
00:24:45.059 --> 00:24:45.900
the shit out of somebody.

544
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:46.740
Pregnant.

545
00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:47.700
It looks amazing.

546
00:24:47.819 --> 00:24:49.200
Awesome.

547
00:24:49.259 --> 00:24:51.480
Oh, look at all this location work.

548
00:24:51.539 --> 00:24:53.819
It's sunny and light and beautiful.

549
00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:58.680
Oh, I'm getting very definite past tense vibes from the little

550
00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:00.779
staircase that Roxanne just walked up.

551
00:25:01.259 --> 00:25:05.160
Yeah, that's because that's because they're featured in past

552
00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:05.519
yeah.

553
00:25:06.420 --> 00:25:10.680
But they all say in interviews how refreshing it was to have so

554
00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:11.579
much location.

555
00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:14.339
They loved going outside, actually, you know, playing about a

556
00:25:14.339 --> 00:25:14.519
bit.

557
00:25:15.180 --> 00:25:19.079
Yeah, well, it's it's kind of fun play acting.

558
00:25:19.140 --> 00:25:22.619
I mean, you think that, you know, Star Trek is fun play acting and

559
00:25:22.619 --> 00:25:25.259
we really, really like Star Trek.

560
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:29.279
But for them, that was just a day at the office, you know, he's

561
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:30.720
our standard go-to German guy.

562
00:25:30.779 --> 00:25:34.440
It was just a day at the office and so they get to play dress-ups

563
00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:36.359
you know, like, yeah.

564
00:25:36.420 --> 00:25:40.140
I've been doing 16 hour days in the same roles, in those four.

565
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:40.559
Yeah, yeah.

566
00:25:40.619 --> 00:25:41.759
I mean, I can't always have been fun.

567
00:25:41.819 --> 00:25:43.799
No, no.

568
00:25:43.859 --> 00:25:46.259
Here, they're running around with guns and period dresses.

569
00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:47.579
Marvellous. you know.

570
00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:50.880
So this is interesting as well.

571
00:25:50.940 --> 00:25:55.799
Because one of the one of the things about this is the way that

572
00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:59.940
the 2 fictions kind of bleed into one another, the Star Trek one

573
00:25:59.940 --> 00:26:04.859
and this World War 2 simulation end up.

574
00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:07.259
So, so he's a Nazi.

575
00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:11.579
Like our hero Hirogan is dressed as a Nazi and he's speaking to a

576
00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:19.440
simulated Nazi on the holodeck and he is trying to kind of get to

577
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:21.240
the bottom of Nazi ideology.

578
00:26:21.299 --> 00:26:27.059
And this Nazi has 2 important speeches in this story, one in each

579
00:26:27.059 --> 00:26:27.480
part.

580
00:26:27.539 --> 00:26:33.779
So it's here, he explains the Nazi ideology, which, um, the

581
00:26:33.779 --> 00:26:38.279
herogen rejects, he just says, you know, you don't deserve these

582
00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:40.319
prizes, you're not superior.

583
00:26:40.380 --> 00:26:44.339
Oh, if you don't respect your enemy. your prey.

584
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:45.119
Yeah.

585
00:26:45.420 --> 00:26:49.200
Yeah, he rejects Nazi ideology.

586
00:26:49.259 --> 00:26:55.019
But the young, the young kind of angry Hirogen gets a speech from

587
00:26:55.019 --> 00:27:00.660
the Nazi and that encourages him to overthrow our hero.

588
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:03.839
And it's in absolute Nazi term.

589
00:27:03.900 --> 00:27:08.759
So the, the, the Nazis and the hirogen are kind of bleeding into

590
00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:13.140
one another, you know, they're, and you can see it in the look, but

591
00:27:13.140 --> 00:27:16.140
it isn't just the hirogens are Nazis.

592
00:27:16.200 --> 00:27:18.119
Like it's more interesting than that.

593
00:27:18.180 --> 00:27:22.740
But having like the 2 speeches and one, uh, rejecting a one

594
00:27:22.740 --> 00:27:23.579
agreeing.

595
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:26.640
You're very clearly seeing with those 2 characters, how they

596
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:27.059
differ.

597
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:31.559
And that basically this is not going to end with them agreeing on

598
00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:33.059
a path of action, you know.

599
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:33.900
No.

600
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:35.519
Well, I mean, it's in part two.

601
00:27:35.579 --> 00:27:40.559
It's basically this guy who is now, you know, kind of smiling into

602
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:43.319
Roxanne's eyes, which wouldn't you?

603
00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:45.960
which is so great.

604
00:27:49.019 --> 00:27:50.460
I don't know where I was going with that.

605
00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:54.539
Yeah, I mean, this guy actually is the one who encourages him to a

606
00:27:54.539 --> 00:27:55.799
Bell at the very end of the episode.

607
00:27:55.859 --> 00:27:58.680
So we already know he's a loose cannon and staff.

608
00:27:58.740 --> 00:28:04.980
This is very nice because bringing in Jerry Ryan meant that

609
00:28:04.980 --> 00:28:08.880
Roxanne Dawson suddenly got a lot less attention than she

610
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:09.839
otherwise did.

611
00:28:09.900 --> 00:28:11.519
And she was pregnant.

612
00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:14.579
So they were trying to keep her to the periphery of a lot of

613
00:28:14.579 --> 00:28:15.299
episodes as well.

614
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:19.799
So this was a chance for her to actually be centre stage a little

615
00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:20.099
bit more.

616
00:28:20.339 --> 00:28:22.019
Oh, hang on.

617
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:23.880
Is this the bit where they start shooting at the Ulix?

618
00:28:23.940 --> 00:28:25.380
It isn't it?

619
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:26.460
Yes, there we go.

620
00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:30.299
Yeah, so already we're having the tension between these 2

621
00:28:30.299 --> 00:28:31.619
hirogen.

622
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:34.859
One of them just wants to resume the hunt and the other one

623
00:28:34.859 --> 00:28:35.460
doesn't.

624
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:37.380
And like, yeah, they're just...

625
00:28:37.380 --> 00:28:40.500
You have to want to shoot Inspector of the Gun about Star Trek

626
00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:44.039
doing, you know, the familiar and the unusual.

627
00:28:44.099 --> 00:28:46.440
So having these A.J.

628
00:28:46.440 --> 00:28:46.859
Ryan.

629
00:28:46.859 --> 00:28:51.000
In her little beret and her cardigan and that dress.

630
00:28:51.059 --> 00:28:53.579
Look at look at the camera work here.

631
00:28:55.019 --> 00:28:59.819
It is a little more imaginative than you usually get in that

632
00:28:59.819 --> 00:29:00.720
track.

633
00:29:00.779 --> 00:29:02.039
There's a low angle there.

634
00:29:02.099 --> 00:29:04.259
In a minute, there's a big zoom in on them in the door.

635
00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:06.059
Yeah, yeah.

636
00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:10.200
And I'm not suggesting this is like filmic or cinematic or

637
00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:10.740
anything like that.

638
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:14.160
No, it's not, but it's this is they've expected.

639
00:29:14.220 --> 00:29:15.900
I've said to you about David Lyverson before.

640
00:29:16.019 --> 00:29:19.799
He's one of the few directors of 90s trek. that just genuinely

641
00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:24.119
wanted to make it pacy and a bit more, you know, I don't know if

642
00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:25.380
he always succeeded, but.

643
00:29:25.380 --> 00:29:28.740
Well, I mean, I think this kind of works.

644
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:34.380
And and also, interestingly, what is interesting is both of them

645
00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:39.420
participate in shooting Neelix and seven.

646
00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:44.400
And now, I think, is this where we start to get our Voyager

647
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:48.299
characters who are still on the ship and not in the simulation?

648
00:29:48.299 --> 00:29:50.519
This is us seeing them.

649
00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:51.779
It's just hurricane, isn't it?

650
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:54.839
Well, I mean, there's nothing to remember.

651
00:29:54.900 --> 00:29:58.859
No, no, no, no. just saying that we're several minutes in.

652
00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:02.880
Like we, we're quite a way into the episode before we're back on

653
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:04.440
the, on the ship.

654
00:30:04.500 --> 00:30:05.819
Unless I just sort of...

655
00:30:05.819 --> 00:30:07.920
Well, that's why we've been enjoying the previous scene.

656
00:30:07.980 --> 00:30:09.420
Well, maybe that's it.

657
00:30:10.259 --> 00:30:14.880
No, I want to very briefly talk about Harry Kim, though, because

658
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:20.519
Brandon Bragger and Joe Manosky had 0 interest in the character

659
00:30:20.519 --> 00:30:20.759
right?

660
00:30:20.819 --> 00:30:26.339
And deliberately left him on Voyager, um, away from all the fun

661
00:30:26.339 --> 00:30:30.299
and Garrett Wang was very verbal about saying, hang on.

662
00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:33.779
These guys are all having fun dressing up and da da.

663
00:30:33.779 --> 00:30:36.839
And they, you know, they were very open about the fact that they

664
00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:39.359
thought he was a boring character and they just didn't want to

665
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:39.900
have him involved.

666
00:30:39.960 --> 00:30:44.819
But what happened was, and this is kind of interesting, is...

667
00:30:44.819 --> 00:30:51.779
The episodes underrun and they couldn't have any more time on the

668
00:30:51.779 --> 00:30:54.779
expensive sets that they had built.

669
00:30:54.839 --> 00:30:56.880
So they had to have scenes on Voyager.

670
00:30:56.940 --> 00:30:58.980
So they had to give Harry Kim more to do.

671
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:01.200
They were stuck in this position of taking this character.

672
00:31:01.259 --> 00:31:04.259
They didn't want to ride for and give him interesting things to

673
00:31:04.259 --> 00:31:04.559
do.

674
00:31:04.619 --> 00:31:06.779
So obviously he gets brutalised a bit, doesn't he?

675
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:09.299
And he kind of shows his teeth a bit.

676
00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:14.339
And what happened at the end was they thought Garrett Wang did

677
00:31:14.339 --> 00:31:17.819
such a bang up job of the material that they gave him.

678
00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:21.299
They wrote timeless in series 5 for him and said, this is a

679
00:31:21.299 --> 00:31:22.319
character that's got legs.

680
00:31:22.380 --> 00:31:27.839
Let's give him more to do. and my god, he looks gorgeous Yeah, yeah

681
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:29.579
he really does. at him.

682
00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:34.440
So, our hero Hurogen just said, we have to send Jerry Ryan.

683
00:31:34.500 --> 00:31:37.079
We have to send 7 back to Holodeck one because he likes her

684
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:37.319
voice.

685
00:31:37.380 --> 00:31:39.240
So he actually enjoys her singing.

686
00:31:39.299 --> 00:31:40.680
That's not just a funny line.

687
00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:42.779
And he likes the wine.

688
00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:43.740
Holy crap.

689
00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:44.700
Look at Gary.

690
00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:47.460
I know, but I do think that, you know, maybe there is, you know

691
00:31:47.460 --> 00:31:50.819
like brainwashing her and shoving her in a simulation.

692
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:52.380
Like, you know, Oh, no, he's about.

693
00:31:52.380 --> 00:31:54.539
I'm trying to say his methods, yeah, yeah.

694
00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:56.700
No, no, he's they're terrible people.

695
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:04.440
Well, I did, I thought that was interesting, and uh, Harry Kim was

696
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:08.339
almost written out, wasn't he, in series 4, and at last minute, he

697
00:32:08.339 --> 00:32:11.700
won, I know, top 30 sexiest man or something like that.

698
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:16.500
Yeah, no, it was like people's 100 Yeah, most attractive people or

699
00:32:16.500 --> 00:32:16.740
something.

700
00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:17.880
Understandably.

701
00:32:17.940 --> 00:32:18.660
I mean, look at him.

702
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:20.279
Oh, no, he's really pretty.

703
00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:21.900
And when he has floppy hair.

704
00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:24.720
Yeah, and he's a bit angry.

705
00:32:24.779 --> 00:32:26.339
I love this guy.

706
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:32.759
The guy who's just in the background tapping on the pad, and he

707
00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:34.200
doesn't get any line.

708
00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:38.819
No, he's like, he's just, he's just doing facial expressions.

709
00:32:38.819 --> 00:32:42.000
And then he wanders off and his one line of dialogue appears to be

710
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:43.500
ADR.

711
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:47.039
So they didn't have to pay him to say anything.

712
00:32:47.099 --> 00:32:50.460
Look, here he goes. something about the fact that, I, I, I, this

713
00:32:50.460 --> 00:32:52.859
is something more about me than I should probably admit on a

714
00:32:52.859 --> 00:32:53.220
podcast.

715
00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:56.400
The thing about the fact that Harry Kim has been brutalised and

716
00:32:56.400 --> 00:32:57.359
he's got a bloody face.

717
00:32:57.420 --> 00:32:58.380
That's very hot about him.

718
00:32:58.440 --> 00:32:59.339
I don't know what he is.

719
00:32:59.460 --> 00:32:59.940
No.

720
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:01.680
And he's dirty and sweaty.

721
00:33:01.740 --> 00:33:05.640
It's a whole thing But like, and then when they give him timeless

722
00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:08.099
in Series 5, he really does it. well.

723
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:10.140
Yeah, he's really good.

724
00:33:10.380 --> 00:33:13.319
So I'm inclined to think it's not the actor.

725
00:33:13.380 --> 00:33:19.799
It's the lack of opportunities Well, yeah, I mean, that's what

726
00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:22.619
Beltran will complain about, but I think that the lack of

727
00:33:22.619 --> 00:33:26.160
opportunities that Beltran gets because he's largely because he's

728
00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:26.519
boring.

729
00:33:26.579 --> 00:33:28.200
Well, he just phones it in.

730
00:33:28.380 --> 00:33:31.380
He doesn't really give a shit. so they don't write for him, I

731
00:33:31.380 --> 00:33:31.559
think.

732
00:33:31.619 --> 00:33:36.240
Are you suggesting his turn as the American commander in this?

733
00:33:36.299 --> 00:33:37.200
phone.

734
00:33:37.259 --> 00:33:38.400
It's super boring.

735
00:33:38.460 --> 00:33:40.079
It's absolutely phone in.

736
00:33:40.140 --> 00:33:44.039
He's just not bothering at all And, and...

737
00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:48.119
I love it when they do this, you know, when they do like, this is

738
00:33:48.119 --> 00:33:51.059
Harry Kim and the doctor trying to retake the ship and they did

739
00:33:51.059 --> 00:33:51.359
it.

740
00:33:51.420 --> 00:33:53.759
Do you remember when they did it with Suda and the doctor in

741
00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:54.180
basics?

742
00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:57.480
I love it when it's just a couple of characters trying to take on

743
00:33:57.480 --> 00:33:58.319
like, you know.

744
00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:01.140
Our whole race had taken over the ship.

745
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:04.019
Oh, what's the next TV show they're going to watch?

746
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:04.920
The Hirogen?

747
00:34:04.980 --> 00:34:08.039
He's choosing our next holodeck simulation program?

748
00:34:08.099 --> 00:34:09.960
Oh, isn't he saying though?

749
00:34:10.019 --> 00:34:11.880
Is he saying they're actually going to go and take on the Borg?

750
00:34:11.940 --> 00:34:16.139
You know, they're going to do a Borg episode. on the holiday?

751
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:21.659
If it's read by this production team, they probably will.

752
00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:26.579
Yeah, they're going to run the scorpion simulation, just do a

753
00:34:26.579 --> 00:34:27.179
season finale.

754
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:30.840
I seem to recall Luaxana Troy had eyes a bit like the herogen with

755
00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:32.760
the big black contact.

756
00:34:32.820 --> 00:34:35.159
Yeah, yeah. quite appealing, actually, isn't it?

757
00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:41.400
So here's the central conflict here.

758
00:34:41.460 --> 00:34:45.539
So the young Hirogen is kind of conservative.

759
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:49.619
He just wants to continue his life, the way that he does and just

760
00:34:49.619 --> 00:34:52.320
thinks that we should be hunting and why are we here playing these

761
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:54.119
games instead of hunting our prey.

762
00:34:54.179 --> 00:34:59.760
And he's, you know, and the older guy identifies that position as

763
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:00.420
being young.

764
00:35:00.420 --> 00:35:02.340
The older guy is more thoughtful.

765
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:08.820
He wants to learn things and what he's learning from is the, you

766
00:35:08.820 --> 00:35:13.559
know, kind of library of TV programs that the Voyager crew have.

767
00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:16.199
He's learning that there are different ways of living.

768
00:35:16.260 --> 00:35:18.840
But he still wants to find it.

769
00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:20.760
He still wants to use the technology to fight.

770
00:35:20.820 --> 00:35:22.500
Yeah, yeah.

771
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:24.360
Yeah, and that is a thing.

772
00:35:24.420 --> 00:35:27.420
Like he wants to use the technology to create hunting simulation

773
00:35:27.420 --> 00:35:29.159
so they can get hunting out of their system.

774
00:35:30.059 --> 00:35:33.179
At the end, she gives them the gift of the holodeck technology.

775
00:35:33.239 --> 00:35:37.260
And the next time we cap 4 seasons in the future, when they decide

776
00:35:37.260 --> 00:35:40.920
to do a follow-up to this, the holograms have revolted.

777
00:35:41.579 --> 00:35:44.099
Because they've had enough of being killed.

778
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:45.780
They're sick of being stabbed and stuff.

779
00:35:45.900 --> 00:35:51.539
But, but the reason that he wants to put the hunt on the holodeck

780
00:35:51.539 --> 00:35:58.260
is so that they can spend the rest of their time together just

781
00:35:58.260 --> 00:36:02.460
doing the sort of things that he's watching on the, on the, on

782
00:36:02.460 --> 00:36:06.719
these TV programs, listening to people seeing, drinking wine.

783
00:36:06.780 --> 00:36:08.519
Don't you think?

784
00:36:08.579 --> 00:36:09.719
That's what he wants.

785
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:11.760
Yeah, you know, he wants, yeah.

786
00:36:11.820 --> 00:36:14.940
So he wants to, who's like obsessed with the glories of the past

787
00:36:14.940 --> 00:36:17.400
and yeah, he wants to continue.

788
00:36:17.460 --> 00:36:19.079
And the hunt, like a traditional way of life.

789
00:36:19.139 --> 00:36:22.320
And this guy says, no, there's more to life than that.

790
00:36:22.380 --> 00:36:24.840
It's the Star Trek ideal, isn't it?

791
00:36:24.900 --> 00:36:26.820
It's we could be better than this.

792
00:36:26.940 --> 00:36:28.139
That's right.

793
00:36:28.199 --> 00:36:28.980
That's right.

794
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:33.420
And it is that thing that we saw Inspector of the Gun where, you

795
00:36:33.420 --> 00:36:35.940
know, Kirk hasn't abandoned.

796
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:41.639
Like he still wants, he still has an urge to violent, but he

797
00:36:41.639 --> 00:36:42.539
doesn't indulge it.

798
00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:46.199
You know, he's chosen not to indulge it to be better than that.

799
00:36:46.260 --> 00:36:48.719
And that's what this herogen wants to do.

800
00:36:48.780 --> 00:36:53.579
He wants to move the prey, the hunting, rather, into a fictional

801
00:36:53.579 --> 00:36:57.719
environment so that he can get on with enjoying life in the real

802
00:36:57.719 --> 00:36:58.199
world.

803
00:36:58.260 --> 00:37:03.119
He calls it civilisation, and that's a thing that will come up in

804
00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:05.880
the 2nd Nazi speech we were talking about earlier.

805
00:37:05.940 --> 00:37:09.300
I just find it really weird that he just wants like his entire

806
00:37:09.300 --> 00:37:12.900
race to just spend their entire, you know, all of their time in a

807
00:37:12.900 --> 00:37:13.500
simulation.

808
00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:17.699
No, no, he wants them to do the hunt in the simulation.

809
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:19.980
Oh, and then spend the rest of their time being cultured

810
00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:21.000
together.

811
00:37:21.059 --> 00:37:22.860
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

812
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:24.360
I think that's absolutely it.

813
00:37:24.420 --> 00:37:29.039
Listening to Jerry Ryan Singh drinking the wine that Katrine gives

814
00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:29.280
you.

815
00:37:29.340 --> 00:37:31.199
Uh, you know, doing a bit of hard time.

816
00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:32.699
I don't want to watch the Hiroshan show anymore.

817
00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:34.199
Well, that sounds really boring.

818
00:37:34.260 --> 00:37:35.460
I'm sorry.

819
00:37:35.460 --> 00:37:40.380
The thing about the Hirogen as well is I feel quite sorry for them

820
00:37:40.380 --> 00:37:45.239
because they're introduced in hunters where there's a far more

821
00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:48.599
interesting A-plot where voyagers getting letters from home.

822
00:37:48.659 --> 00:37:52.559
Then you've got then you've got prey, which is a really fantastic

823
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:56.699
action episode, but it's got Species 8472.

824
00:37:56.820 --> 00:37:58.440
So who cares about the Hirogen?

825
00:37:58.500 --> 00:38:01.920
And then there's this, and this is kind of where they duck out, you

826
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:02.099
know.

827
00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:03.239
Yeah, yeah.

828
00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:04.920
They didn't really get a shot.

829
00:38:04.980 --> 00:38:06.480
The Kazon had far more screen time.

830
00:38:06.539 --> 00:38:08.039
Oh, yeah.

831
00:38:08.099 --> 00:38:11.280
But, you know, like they're doing better than the swarm or the

832
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:12.300
Beaumar at this point.

833
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:15.239
More than one episode.

834
00:38:15.900 --> 00:38:19.079
That's not fucking stupid, like the bone.

835
00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:21.840
Imagine if the Hirogen had been designed like the Beaumont.

836
00:38:21.900 --> 00:38:25.320
The greatest hunters on their waico hanger faces.

837
00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:29.280
I think I think it's a solid look.

838
00:38:30.179 --> 00:38:31.320
Can I ask you a corrosion look?

839
00:38:31.380 --> 00:38:34.679
Do you think Jerry Wright has the fullest lips of any person who's

840
00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:35.760
ever been on TV?

841
00:38:35.820 --> 00:38:39.059
No, nope, that would be LaVar Burton.

842
00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:42.599
You know, there was a kiss scene between those two.

843
00:38:42.659 --> 00:38:44.159
It would be the sexiest thing ever, wouldn't it?

844
00:38:44.219 --> 00:38:44.940
Yeah, yeah.

845
00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:47.579
Um, He's so pretty.

846
00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:49.139
So this is the master from...

847
00:38:49.139 --> 00:38:50.400
Buffy.

848
00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:52.019
Yeah, yeah.

849
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:53.340
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

850
00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:54.539
I did not know that.

851
00:38:54.599 --> 00:38:57.900
Oh, this is your scene in a minute where she goes back into the

852
00:38:57.900 --> 00:38:58.320
simulation.

853
00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:01.860
She starts singing. and then she says, I'm...

854
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:03.300
It's my favourite line ever.

855
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:04.860
Don't don't spoil it.

856
00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:05.280
But yeah.

857
00:39:05.340 --> 00:39:07.860
Oh, look, I just love that outfit.

858
00:39:08.579 --> 00:39:14.579
Like 7's outfit, like when she's shooting people with her little

859
00:39:14.579 --> 00:39:17.579
cardi, and then obviously this dress is spectacular.

860
00:39:17.639 --> 00:39:22.079
I've got a kind of question about holodeck simulations, right?

861
00:39:22.139 --> 00:39:25.800
And how every time we go into the holiday batter being, but bang

862
00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:27.420
this, I'm at Bashir.

863
00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:31.440
It's always so much more stylish and interesting and visually

864
00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:34.019
sumptuous than our regular stuff than the shows.

865
00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:36.119
So my question is this.

866
00:39:36.900 --> 00:39:41.639
Why the hell do we spend so much time on those boring spaceships?

867
00:39:41.699 --> 00:39:44.340
Yeah, yeah, rather than this sort of stuff.

868
00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:47.460
Yeah, that's what, no, we're in the future.

869
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:48.539
Here's the line.

870
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:53.159
So her neural interface has been deactivated. and she turns around

871
00:39:53.159 --> 00:39:57.119
doesn't quite know where she is and says, I must discontinue this

872
00:39:57.119 --> 00:39:57.780
activity.

873
00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:00.480
She can't even come up with the word singing.

874
00:40:00.539 --> 00:40:03.599
It's so good and it is played for laughs.

875
00:40:03.719 --> 00:40:07.800
Like, I think everyone's aware that that's a funny line.

876
00:40:07.860 --> 00:40:12.539
And he's a bit of an argument, another, oh, yes, gosh. when they

877
00:40:12.539 --> 00:40:15.059
look at each other. they don't know whatever. they don't know if

878
00:40:15.059 --> 00:40:19.079
to fight each other or snog each other, you know, but it's gosh, it

879
00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:19.619
sizzles.

880
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:23.219
Now, look, you know, I'm not going to disagree with what you're

881
00:40:23.219 --> 00:40:26.940
saying about the Hirogen characters and the kind of thoughtful

882
00:40:26.940 --> 00:40:29.519
things they're trying to do with them, however.

883
00:40:29.579 --> 00:40:33.900
I think that is on the periphery of having our regulars in

884
00:40:33.900 --> 00:40:34.800
different roles.

885
00:40:34.860 --> 00:40:35.579
Oh, I agree.

886
00:40:35.639 --> 00:40:39.000
The stylishness of the setting and all that other.

887
00:40:39.059 --> 00:40:40.500
That's basically what this is.

888
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:44.460
Yeah, it's just an excuse to get them into the holodeck doing this

889
00:40:44.460 --> 00:40:44.699
thing.

890
00:40:44.760 --> 00:40:47.820
But I think they've given it a layer, though, haven't they?

891
00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:50.820
They've given it an additional layer and that's...

892
00:40:50.940 --> 00:40:53.579
Well they've given the hirogen something to do, some reason to be

893
00:40:53.579 --> 00:40:53.940
here.

894
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:55.980
Oh, right, I just fell asleep immediately.

895
00:40:56.039 --> 00:40:57.900
He's Robert Beltran on the screen.

896
00:40:57.960 --> 00:40:59.639
And Tom Paris.

897
00:40:59.820 --> 00:41:00.599
And Tom Paris.

898
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:02.039
Oh, that's the Americans.

899
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:06.719
You know how they, you were saying that Manosky didn't really like

900
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:09.179
Harry Kim as a character.

901
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:10.320
And there's nothing there.

902
00:41:10.380 --> 00:41:12.659
You know, like what's Harry Kim's character.

903
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:14.219
He plays the clarinet.

904
00:41:14.280 --> 00:41:16.920
Like, personal character.

905
00:41:16.980 --> 00:41:19.800
He likes the Delaney sisters, and...

906
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:21.900
He waits his pants when 7 of 9 comes onto him.

907
00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:23.820
That's about it Yeah, that's it.

908
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:27.659
He's really got nothing He's absolutely undercharacterized.

909
00:41:27.719 --> 00:41:30.179
And so there's nothing there that isn't Garrett Wang's

910
00:41:30.179 --> 00:41:30.480
performance.

911
00:41:30.539 --> 00:41:32.820
That means you can surprise with him, doesn't it?

912
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:36.239
It means if you do give him something exciting to do.

913
00:41:36.300 --> 00:41:38.400
Then you go, wow, there's potential.

914
00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:39.900
He's great in this.

915
00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:43.019
Whereas, like, I don't think either of these 2 are very

916
00:41:43.019 --> 00:41:43.860
interesting at all.

917
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:45.300
And I wasn't missing them.

918
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:48.480
Like, were you there going, I wonder where Robbie is.

919
00:41:48.539 --> 00:41:49.980
Not once.

920
00:41:50.219 --> 00:41:51.780
Hang on.

921
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:53.400
You are Janeway...

922
00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:55.320
Chewvok, the doctor.

923
00:41:55.380 --> 00:41:56.880
Show me the best characters involved.

924
00:41:56.940 --> 00:41:57.599
I didn't.

925
00:41:57.659 --> 00:41:58.019
Yeah, yeah.

926
00:41:58.019 --> 00:42:02.519
I think everyone called Robert on the regular cast is in this

927
00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:04.199
scene and they're both terrible.

928
00:42:04.260 --> 00:42:09.420
I think they think that Robert Duncan McNeil's Tom Paris is far

929
00:42:09.420 --> 00:42:11.099
more interesting than he actually is.

930
00:42:11.159 --> 00:42:13.679
And that, oh, yeah, across the 7 seasons.

931
00:42:13.739 --> 00:42:15.780
They give him a lot of time, you know?

932
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:16.739
Yeah.

933
00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:19.440
Yeah I don't think he's very good at all.

934
00:42:19.500 --> 00:42:23.639
You know, like, I think Garrett Wang is is more fun to, I mean

935
00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:25.139
that could just be me because he's pretty.

936
00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:29.940
But, um, certainly, minus the doctor, you've got all the best

937
00:42:29.940 --> 00:42:31.139
characters in Voyager in this scene.

938
00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:33.599
Torres, Janeway, 7 than Tuvok.

939
00:42:33.659 --> 00:42:35.400
Yeah, yeah, you're right.

940
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:37.500
They got really good.

941
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:39.840
Look at them all dressed up in black as well, you know.

942
00:42:39.900 --> 00:42:40.559
Undercover.

943
00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:47.880
And as usual, they've just stuck Tim Ross in the background...

944
00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:49.739
Looking at that, pissed off.

945
00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:51.119
That's right.

946
00:42:51.179 --> 00:42:53.880
He may as well be behind the fucking tactical console.

947
00:42:53.940 --> 00:42:57.480
Is that the episode where I said, oh, they're firing on us.

948
00:42:58.199 --> 00:43:00.539
He said nothing.

949
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:02.460
He is just standing there looking at them.

950
00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:05.880
Then he walks off, we're done.

951
00:43:05.940 --> 00:43:10.199
Oh, this thing here where she realises that the bomb isn't set out

952
00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:14.159
properly and she accuses 7 of 9 of trying to sabotage the plan.

953
00:43:14.219 --> 00:43:15.900
Yeah, yeah.

954
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:19.019
There's just something tangibly there.

955
00:43:19.079 --> 00:43:24.239
I, you know, it's sad because I think they lose it in series 6 and

956
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:28.019
7 as they start, yeah, they start playing nice for each other and

957
00:43:28.019 --> 00:43:29.699
it's it's far less interesting.

958
00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:32.519
I'm going to call that character progression.

959
00:43:32.579 --> 00:43:37.920
I'm going to say it's the fact that Jerry Ryan is now having sex

960
00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:40.019
with...

961
00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:40.320
Yeah.

962
00:43:42.059 --> 00:43:44.699
Ah, bless her. so fantastic.

963
00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:49.500
What I do like, though, and I think I didn't realise when I 1st

964
00:43:49.500 --> 00:43:52.920
watched this, was it is definitely a game of 2 halvesists, and the

965
00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:54.539
1st half is a lot of talk.

966
00:43:54.599 --> 00:43:58.440
And the 2nd half is basically, oh, action, isn't it?

967
00:43:58.500 --> 00:44:00.719
There's so much action in that 2nd episode.

968
00:44:00.780 --> 00:44:04.199
I think I think there are some really shitty boring bits in the

969
00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:04.860
2nd episode.

970
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:09.119
And I don't care that this is all talk because I think it's

971
00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:09.840
interesting.

972
00:44:09.900 --> 00:44:11.579
Like, I think it's probably interesting.

973
00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:13.199
It looks good.

974
00:44:13.260 --> 00:44:14.400
You've got to be honest.

975
00:44:14.460 --> 00:44:16.739
There's got to be some shit bits because if you and I can't spend

976
00:44:16.739 --> 00:44:19.739
an hour and a half saying that for you, it is amazing how great it

977
00:44:19.739 --> 00:44:19.980
is.

978
00:44:20.039 --> 00:44:20.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

979
00:44:20.940 --> 00:44:22.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

980
00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:24.780
It's got to be at least one scene where you say, well, this is

981
00:44:24.780 --> 00:44:26.519
completely terrible, you know?

982
00:44:26.940 --> 00:44:32.099
And look at Harry standing up to these and the actors they've got

983
00:44:32.099 --> 00:44:33.119
playing Hirogen.

984
00:44:33.179 --> 00:44:36.360
So we've got a guard Hirogen who doesn't say anything and is just

985
00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:39.539
paid to wear the latex or whatever, but he's standing up to them

986
00:44:39.539 --> 00:44:44.340
and he's absolutely, you know, dwarfed by them and he's back

987
00:44:44.340 --> 00:44:46.320
talking and and all of that.

988
00:44:46.380 --> 00:44:47.699
It's so good.

989
00:44:48.239 --> 00:44:51.300
And and he's like a proper nerd.

990
00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:52.139
It sort of cute.

991
00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:56.760
Look, I mean, it irritates me. 9 times out of 10, they just give

992
00:44:56.760 --> 00:44:59.639
him obvious dull.

993
00:44:59.699 --> 00:45:00.360
Do you remember that episode?

994
00:45:00.420 --> 00:45:06.599
Do you remember equinox where, um, Belana Torres's X squeeze turns

995
00:45:06.599 --> 00:45:10.139
up on the equinox and he's like, oh, you know, I used to call her

996
00:45:10.139 --> 00:45:13.860
BLT, bacon lettuce tomato, and then Harry Kim's in the background

997
00:45:13.860 --> 00:45:16.980
going, Oh, well, we'll call Tom Paris, Turkey platter.

998
00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:18.000
And I'm like, oh, God.

999
00:45:18.059 --> 00:45:20.760
And that's the sort of dialogue about Harry Kim normally.

1000
00:45:20.820 --> 00:45:24.539
Fuck, Voyager banter is so shit, isn't it?

1001
00:45:24.599 --> 00:45:26.880
It's really terrible.

1002
00:45:27.300 --> 00:45:31.079
How can we make these people sound like terrible sitcom

1003
00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:31.800
characters?

1004
00:45:31.860 --> 00:45:33.659
Yeah, no, but they don't.

1005
00:45:33.659 --> 00:45:34.739
That's the problem.

1006
00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:37.320
Whereas on, like on Deep Shace 9.

1007
00:45:37.380 --> 00:45:40.920
They're good, solid, well-defined sitcom characters.

1008
00:45:40.980 --> 00:45:44.639
You know, and because they have a way that they always behave, you

1009
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:46.860
can do fun things with them and take them out of their comfort

1010
00:45:46.860 --> 00:45:47.340
zone.

1011
00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:52.139
These people on Voyager have no discernable personal

1012
00:45:52.139 --> 00:45:54.659
characteristics as far as I can tell.

1013
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:57.420
And it's a shame.

1014
00:45:57.480 --> 00:45:59.039
We're spending a better money.

1015
00:45:59.099 --> 00:46:00.539
We've got a nice shoe here, Nathan.

1016
00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:01.559
Yeah, I know.

1017
00:46:01.619 --> 00:46:02.340
I love it.

1018
00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:03.119
It's so good.

1019
00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:06.960
And we're standing on top of the building with a handheld camera

1020
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:08.880
like kind of pointing down earlier on, I think.

1021
00:46:08.940 --> 00:46:13.019
So do you think this entire episode is basically an excuse to

1022
00:46:13.019 --> 00:46:16.380
build up for the money shop, which is behind you right now?

1023
00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:17.639
Yeah, yeah.

1024
00:46:17.699 --> 00:46:24.239
So, so, in a way, I mean, giving Harry those extra scenes in this

1025
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:25.920
means that.

1026
00:46:25.980 --> 00:46:30.119
And I think I said this earlier, we've got 2 parallel resistances

1027
00:46:30.119 --> 00:46:33.239
happening against the hirogen in each case.

1028
00:46:33.300 --> 00:46:37.619
So in this simulation, they're Nazis and we're trying to blow them

1029
00:46:37.619 --> 00:46:43.619
up, in, um, in the other the simulation that's running on our

1030
00:46:43.619 --> 00:46:44.099
television.

1031
00:46:45.059 --> 00:46:50.760
Harry is trying to, you know, incite our regular crew to sort of

1032
00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:53.940
get their memories back and join his resistance against the

1033
00:46:53.940 --> 00:46:54.719
Hirogen.

1034
00:46:54.840 --> 00:47:00.059
And so, obviously, the cliffhanger to this episode is a giant tear

1035
00:47:00.059 --> 00:47:03.059
in reality that goes into another.

1036
00:47:03.119 --> 00:47:05.699
Yeah, and then what happens in the 2nd episode of that?

1037
00:47:05.699 --> 00:47:07.320
That's the two, basically, combined, don't they?

1038
00:47:07.380 --> 00:47:10.679
The American genres go on the ship and help with that part of the

1039
00:47:10.679 --> 00:47:14.219
and then they and then they get their memories back and head into

1040
00:47:14.219 --> 00:47:14.880
the simulation.

1041
00:47:14.940 --> 00:47:16.380
Yeah, yeah.

1042
00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:17.880
It's really great.

1043
00:47:17.940 --> 00:47:21.840
And I think that's really fun because do you remember shipping a

1044
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:22.079
bottle?

1045
00:47:22.139 --> 00:47:24.000
Oh, I love that episode. yeah.

1046
00:47:24.360 --> 00:47:32.940
So Moriarty is kind of trapped in a sort of device, I think it

1047
00:47:32.940 --> 00:47:35.219
looks like the device that Janeway gives the Hirogen, actually.

1048
00:47:35.219 --> 00:47:36.300
It really does.

1049
00:47:36.300 --> 00:47:38.340
It may be the same prop.

1050
00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:41.099
And, oh, my God, I just realised something.

1051
00:47:41.159 --> 00:47:42.840
That was sitting on Picard's desk, you know.

1052
00:47:43.559 --> 00:47:45.840
When the Enterprise was destroyed.

1053
00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:49.380
Oh, poor Moriality, honestly.

1054
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:50.400
Hor Moriarty.

1055
00:47:50.460 --> 00:47:51.059
Anyway, go on.

1056
00:47:51.179 --> 00:47:58.019
But, uh, you know, I think, uh, Picard suspects that all kind of

1057
00:47:58.019 --> 00:48:02.579
theorises, what if we were a comp- or in a complex simulation that

1058
00:48:02.579 --> 00:48:07.019
was being played out on a device on a table in someone's living

1059
00:48:07.019 --> 00:48:08.039
room?

1060
00:48:08.099 --> 00:48:09.420
Which is, of course, what they are.

1061
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:10.920
Do you know right?

1062
00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:13.619
Do you know what the very last scene of DS9?

1063
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:17.099
They mooted this and at the last minute they said, no, we're not

1064
00:48:17.099 --> 00:48:17.579
going to do it.

1065
00:48:17.639 --> 00:48:21.239
The very last scene was going to be Benny Russell.

1066
00:48:22.980 --> 00:48:26.340
And the whole of DS9 was...

1067
00:48:26.340 --> 00:48:27.179
Was he's riding?

1068
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:27.719
Yeah.

1069
00:48:27.780 --> 00:48:29.880
Oh, man, that would have been pretty good.

1070
00:48:29.940 --> 00:48:30.360
Yeah.

1071
00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:30.840
Yeah.

1072
00:48:30.900 --> 00:48:32.639
Yeah, that would have...

1073
00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:34.380
Do you reckon in this scene?

1074
00:48:34.380 --> 00:48:36.179
Mulgrew was like, oh, it's the safety on.

1075
00:48:38.340 --> 00:48:41.039
Oh, no, a real gun.

1076
00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:42.360
Needix is a Klingon.

1077
00:48:42.420 --> 00:48:45.539
Uh...

1078
00:48:45.539 --> 00:48:47.340
The layers of latex he's wearing.

1079
00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:50.159
Yeah, it's really not great.

1080
00:48:50.219 --> 00:48:51.539
It's really great.

1081
00:48:51.599 --> 00:48:52.380
And I've got to be honest.

1082
00:48:52.440 --> 00:48:54.119
It doesn't quite pull it off.

1083
00:48:54.300 --> 00:48:56.940
Oh no, I think he's terrible.

1084
00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:02.699
And I think these scenes are incredibly cheap and kind of not

1085
00:49:02.699 --> 00:49:05.340
great to watch, I think.

1086
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:08.699
I don't think Voyager ever really does the Klingons very well.

1087
00:49:08.820 --> 00:49:10.260
No.

1088
00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:11.400
No.

1089
00:49:11.460 --> 00:49:13.260
And it doesn't have to, I guess.

1090
00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:17.039
It's almost like the hierogenism, like the original villains

1091
00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:17.519
aren't enough.

1092
00:49:17.579 --> 00:49:19.739
They've always got to bring back the old favourites, you know?

1093
00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:21.239
Yeah, yeah.

1094
00:49:21.300 --> 00:49:23.639
But I think the hirogen are much better than the Klingon tier.

1095
00:49:23.699 --> 00:49:24.119
Look at those.

1096
00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:25.500
I do love this side guys.

1097
00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:28.739
I do love this running around the streets with a machine gun at

1098
00:49:28.739 --> 00:49:29.880
night.

1099
00:49:29.940 --> 00:49:33.539
Yeah, it's really good. is you telling me 90s tracks never very

1100
00:49:33.539 --> 00:49:34.079
dynamic.

1101
00:49:34.139 --> 00:49:35.099
Have a look.

1102
00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:39.360
No, this is, yeah, this is properly fun and it is deliberately

1103
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:40.260
spectacled.

1104
00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:43.739
So, you know, they've given the herogen something to do.

1105
00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:47.760
They've set up this situation where you've got a fictional world

1106
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:51.119
inside a fictional world and the 2 fictions kind of bleed in

1107
00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:51.599
together.

1108
00:49:51.659 --> 00:49:52.739
All of that.

1109
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:55.320
But that's not the primary focus here.

1110
00:49:55.380 --> 00:50:01.500
The primary focus here is to give us 90 minutes of action and

1111
00:50:01.500 --> 00:50:06.239
something that looks different and is fun and dynamic where the

1112
00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:07.500
stakes are really high.

1113
00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:10.980
Like the fact that, you know, you've got the resistance, you've

1114
00:50:10.980 --> 00:50:15.659
got Nazi occupied France, but Voyager has been occupied in a

1115
00:50:15.659 --> 00:50:18.780
pretty thoroughgoing way in a way that hasn't, has it happened

1116
00:50:18.780 --> 00:50:19.139
before?

1117
00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:22.800
I mean, I know that the K's on stole voyager at the end of

1118
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:23.340
basics.

1119
00:50:23.460 --> 00:50:27.239
But is the ship being taken over quite as comprehensively as

1120
00:50:27.239 --> 00:50:27.420
this?

1121
00:50:27.539 --> 00:50:30.360
I think one of Cesco's holodeck program as well as did it in

1122
00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:30.780
series 3.

1123
00:50:31.019 --> 00:50:33.179
Apart from that, no, I don't think so.

1124
00:50:33.239 --> 00:50:35.699
Yeah, so the stakes are super high.

1125
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:39.780
This is an important episode. don't see the takeover means the

1126
00:50:39.780 --> 00:50:43.139
fact that they cut to the chase means they just want this to be

1127
00:50:43.139 --> 00:50:44.280
what it is, you know.

1128
00:50:44.340 --> 00:50:47.579
Yeah, yeah, but it's...

1129
00:50:47.579 --> 00:50:49.079
Yeah, they're both Nazi occupied.

1130
00:50:49.139 --> 00:50:50.760
You know, the Hirogan occupied Voyager.

1131
00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:52.739
Excuse me, can we talk about this special effect, please?

1132
00:50:52.860 --> 00:50:58.500
Because now, whilst it is very clear that Janeway and 7 are, in

1133
00:50:58.500 --> 00:51:00.300
fact, against the CSO backdrop.

1134
00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:04.619
I mean, I love any any scene that features 2 actresses. diving

1135
00:51:04.619 --> 00:51:05.820
over the camera.

1136
00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:06.599
It is.

1137
00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:08.699
Isn't that funny?

1138
00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:12.840
They just absolutely can't afford that, so they just get them to

1139
00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:16.139
dive in front of a green screen. surprise you to know that that is

1140
00:51:16.139 --> 00:51:18.420
in fact their model and they didn't blow up a building.

1141
00:51:18.960 --> 00:51:21.000
Do you know, I love this.

1142
00:51:21.059 --> 00:51:24.179
All the decks bleeding in through the holiday program.

1143
00:51:24.239 --> 00:51:28.079
I really, it's just such a weird visual, isn't it?

1144
00:51:28.139 --> 00:51:29.280
And that's what I like about it.

1145
00:51:29.340 --> 00:51:33.119
And look, the holodeck walls kind of flashing in and out and

1146
00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:33.420
stuff.

1147
00:51:33.480 --> 00:51:38.519
I, when I was watching this in preparation, I wasn't super sold on

1148
00:51:38.519 --> 00:51:42.780
it because it's only sort of vaguely integrated into the

1149
00:51:42.780 --> 00:51:46.800
environment and stuff, but now I kind of think it's the iconic

1150
00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:47.460
visual of the show.

1151
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:49.559
And it is prettier.

1152
00:51:49.619 --> 00:51:49.980
Yeah.

1153
00:51:49.980 --> 00:51:50.519
Yeah.

1154
00:51:50.579 --> 00:51:50.880
Yeah.

1155
00:51:50.940 --> 00:51:52.679
But also, well, I don't know.

1156
00:51:52.739 --> 00:51:56.280
There is a visual in episode two. where I think it's Jane...

1157
00:51:56.400 --> 00:51:56.820
No, no.

1158
00:51:56.880 --> 00:52:00.360
The herogen looks out through the tear and you can, and it

1159
00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:02.760
literally goes, oh, that looks so good.

1160
00:52:02.820 --> 00:52:03.960
It does.

1161
00:52:03.960 --> 00:52:06.719
There's lots of explosions coming up and I'm just like, wow.

1162
00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:07.320
Yeah.

1163
00:52:07.380 --> 00:52:08.940
I do like as well.

1164
00:52:08.940 --> 00:52:12.960
They didn't end it on that shot of the tear, that they have all

1165
00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:15.599
the characters going across the line.

1166
00:52:15.659 --> 00:52:18.840
Because you're like, shit, where is this going?

1167
00:52:18.900 --> 00:52:21.599
These characters are all brainwashed and they're heading into

1168
00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:22.320
Voyager right now.

1169
00:52:22.380 --> 00:52:25.139
Yeah, yeah, yeah. with rifles.

1170
00:52:25.380 --> 00:52:29.940
Actually, this does this does rather highlight one of my issues

1171
00:52:29.940 --> 00:52:31.800
with the killing game.

1172
00:52:31.860 --> 00:52:35.880
And that is, wouldn't it be so embarrassing if this is how, like

1173
00:52:35.880 --> 00:52:39.119
you know, the Voyager crew was finally defeated that they were

1174
00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:41.760
killed within the holodeck within this fiction?

1175
00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:44.519
Like, what are the stakes in this really?

1176
00:52:46.199 --> 00:52:48.900
Well, I mean, the ship's been taken over.

1177
00:52:48.960 --> 00:52:49.980
They've got to get the ship back.

1178
00:52:50.039 --> 00:52:51.539
I think that's a reasonable.

1179
00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:54.119
I don't think we're ever convinced that this is where Voyager's

1180
00:52:54.119 --> 00:52:54.960
going to end, like this.

1181
00:52:55.019 --> 00:52:57.179
No, no, but we never are.

1182
00:52:57.239 --> 00:53:01.860
You know, like that's a way we know that they're all going to be

1183
00:53:01.860 --> 00:53:05.940
okay every week, you know, like it doesn't mean that there isn't

1184
00:53:05.940 --> 00:53:07.619
steaks or it's not exciting.

1185
00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:09.900
Would you stop talking about this being fiction, please, all

1186
00:53:09.900 --> 00:53:10.139
right?

1187
00:53:10.739 --> 00:53:13.380
Where everything will be all right in the end.

1188
00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:20.099
But no, I got to say, I do have to say, uh, and Trek part ones

1189
00:53:20.099 --> 00:53:23.940
generally are more solid than Trek part 2s, but I think this is

1190
00:53:23.940 --> 00:53:26.460
fairly solid across the board.

1191
00:53:26.519 --> 00:53:28.559
That is that is a strong part one.

1192
00:53:28.619 --> 00:53:30.539
Yeah, I agree.

1193
00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:31.199
I think it's great.

1194
00:53:31.800 --> 00:53:33.840
All right, what do you think?

1195
00:53:33.900 --> 00:53:37.019
Should we go on with part 2 Well, after the end of part one?

1196
00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:37.619
How can we not?

1197
00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:39.719
Yeah, yeah, it was pretty exciting.

1198
00:53:39.780 --> 00:53:40.619
Okay.

1199
00:53:40.679 --> 00:53:42.480
I'll count us in then.

1200
00:53:42.539 --> 00:53:43.019
All right.

1201
00:53:43.079 --> 00:53:50.460
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

1202
00:53:50.519 --> 00:53:52.079
It's last time on Voyager.

1203
00:53:52.139 --> 00:53:53.460
So we get this terrible scene.

1204
00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:54.239
Again.

1205
00:53:54.300 --> 00:53:55.500
Again.

1206
00:53:55.559 --> 00:54:02.280
So I mentioned to somebody that we were doing this episode this

1207
00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:04.860
week and they're not a Star Trek fan, right?

1208
00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:08.579
And they were like, oh, well, tell me, what's what's it about?

1209
00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:12.179
And I said, oh, well, you know, it's, um, there's these aliens.

1210
00:54:12.239 --> 00:54:14.820
They've taken over the ship and his eyes rolled.

1211
00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:18.599
And I said, and then they're all, they're all on the holodeck in a

1212
00:54:18.599 --> 00:54:22.679
World War 2 simulation and the eyes rolled and he was like, well

1213
00:54:22.679 --> 00:54:24.659
that's just every episode of Star Trek, isn't it?

1214
00:54:24.780 --> 00:54:26.880
And my question is this.

1215
00:54:26.940 --> 00:54:29.159
Should we be aspiring to more than this?

1216
00:54:30.300 --> 00:54:34.860
Well, I mean, I think that we have seen that Star Trek can do more

1217
00:54:34.860 --> 00:54:42.360
than this, but this is very Star Trek in the sense that you have

1218
00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:47.460
well, you know, the hirogen are trying to be more or, you know, the

1219
00:54:47.460 --> 00:54:49.320
leaderogen wants to be more than he is.

1220
00:54:49.380 --> 00:54:55.380
He wants, he's learned something from these holiday programs, these

1221
00:54:55.380 --> 00:55:00.179
entertainment, that Voyager has a huge database of.

1222
00:55:00.239 --> 00:55:03.539
He's learned something from it, that there's more to life than the

1223
00:55:03.539 --> 00:55:06.000
way that they currently live and he wants to be better.

1224
00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:08.159
And I think that is Star Treky.

1225
00:55:08.219 --> 00:55:09.480
I think there is something there.

1226
00:55:09.599 --> 00:55:12.659
I do also think we've established that, you know, Tuvok's running

1227
00:55:12.659 --> 00:55:13.739
around with a machine gun.

1228
00:55:13.800 --> 00:55:16.260
And that's kind of, that's also, what it is all about.

1229
00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:18.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1230
00:55:18.179 --> 00:55:19.079
No, absolutely.

1231
00:55:19.139 --> 00:55:21.719
And that's what you want, isn't it?

1232
00:55:21.780 --> 00:55:22.619
Isn't that Star Trek?

1233
00:55:22.679 --> 00:55:23.880
What, what?

1234
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:25.739
A lot of action.

1235
00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:30.539
Yeah, action spectacle, guns, explosions, and some kind of

1236
00:55:30.539 --> 00:55:32.280
philosophy theme as well.

1237
00:55:32.340 --> 00:55:38.099
In this same spot in DS9 series 4, you get home front and Paradise

1238
00:55:38.099 --> 00:55:46.260
Lost, which is a massive treaties on paranoia and frightening

1239
00:55:46.260 --> 00:55:52.199
people enough. to go on to like a war footing and things like

1240
00:55:52.199 --> 00:55:52.380
that.

1241
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:55.500
And it's saying it's saying like big substantial things.

1242
00:55:55.559 --> 00:55:58.980
Yeah, and worthwhile things about America.

1243
00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:02.219
You know, that's the sort of thing that discovery does in season

1244
00:56:02.219 --> 00:56:06.599
one and that enterprise kind of does badly.

1245
00:56:06.659 --> 00:56:10.260
It's sort of... season three.

1246
00:56:10.320 --> 00:56:14.940
Well, just go and behave like bullish assholes and then we might

1247
00:56:14.940 --> 00:56:16.320
we might save the planet, you know.

1248
00:56:16.559 --> 00:56:23.099
But, you know, like there is something, this doesn't have a

1249
00:56:23.099 --> 00:56:24.719
massive political thing.

1250
00:56:24.780 --> 00:56:27.119
You know, it's Star Treky.

1251
00:56:27.179 --> 00:56:29.340
It gestures towards what Star Trek's about.

1252
00:56:29.400 --> 00:56:37.139
But what I like now in this 2 parter is that they've installed

1253
00:56:37.139 --> 00:56:42.659
holodecks, holodecks, holo emitters in the in the corridors, and

1254
00:56:42.659 --> 00:56:47.519
so the boundary of the fiction has broken down completely, and now

1255
00:56:47.519 --> 00:56:51.719
we have American soldiers with guns running around, like running

1256
00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:56.940
around. cynical, but that is just a technobapable excuse to have

1257
00:56:56.940 --> 00:56:58.920
Americans soldiers running around in Voyager.

1258
00:56:58.980 --> 00:57:00.239
Absolutely.

1259
00:57:00.300 --> 00:57:02.820
No, but but what the Verogen has done.

1260
00:57:02.940 --> 00:57:09.059
Like, my point is this, is there's not a lot of brain here. you

1261
00:57:09.059 --> 00:57:10.380
know, it is no.

1262
00:57:10.440 --> 00:57:13.139
It is basically just a bit of fluff.

1263
00:57:13.199 --> 00:57:14.940
Yeah, but that's okay.

1264
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:16.320
I think that's all right.

1265
00:57:16.380 --> 00:57:23.400
And and I love the fact that the Hirogen loves the holodeck so

1266
00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:29.699
much that he has turned Voyager into a giant holodeck and the

1267
00:57:29.699 --> 00:57:36.719
explosion that they set off because the safeties are off. actually

1268
00:57:36.719 --> 00:57:42.179
completely destroys the boundary between the 2 fictions and that's

1269
00:57:42.179 --> 00:57:42.539
great.

1270
00:57:42.599 --> 00:57:44.820
It was already porous, wasn't it?

1271
00:57:44.880 --> 00:57:48.599
Because our characters were going in and out and the hirogen, were

1272
00:57:48.599 --> 00:57:50.820
they Nazis or weren't they Nazis and all of that.

1273
00:57:51.360 --> 00:57:54.960
There was a pretty porous boundary, but now it's completely broken

1274
00:57:54.960 --> 00:57:55.920
down and that's great.

1275
00:57:55.980 --> 00:57:57.239
I think that's so good.

1276
00:57:57.300 --> 00:57:59.099
Okay, I'm going to be descending again.

1277
00:57:59.159 --> 00:58:03.300
I don't think there's a Nathan Bossomley in that writer's room

1278
00:58:03.300 --> 00:58:07.500
going, oh my god, the boundaries between 2 fictions are being...

1279
00:58:07.559 --> 00:58:09.300
I think there's someone...

1280
00:58:09.360 --> 00:58:12.659
No, I think there's Brandon Bragger going, wouldn't it be cool if

1281
00:58:12.659 --> 00:58:17.039
there was a great big hole in the holodeck simulation and they're

1282
00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:17.760
soldiers climbing.

1283
00:58:17.820 --> 00:58:18.780
They know what they're doing.

1284
00:58:18.840 --> 00:58:20.519
I think they know what they're doing.

1285
00:58:20.579 --> 00:58:21.179
Yeah, yeah.

1286
00:58:21.239 --> 00:58:23.219
And my objection is this.

1287
00:58:23.219 --> 00:58:25.800
I mean, look, he's watching it on television.

1288
00:58:25.860 --> 00:58:27.900
The Aroach was watching.

1289
00:58:27.960 --> 00:58:31.260
What was happening on a television for God's sake.

1290
00:58:31.320 --> 00:58:34.079
And we're watching him watching that on television.

1291
00:58:34.139 --> 00:58:35.579
Like, it's absolutely.

1292
00:58:35.639 --> 00:58:38.219
It's absolutely deliberate.

1293
00:58:38.699 --> 00:58:43.619
But my point is, is like the, the reason I'm bringing it up is, is

1294
00:58:43.619 --> 00:58:46.019
I don't think there's anything wrong with a bit of fluff either

1295
00:58:46.019 --> 00:58:48.000
but that's the voyager problem.

1296
00:58:48.059 --> 00:58:49.860
It's just so much of this, it's fluff.

1297
00:58:49.920 --> 00:58:51.000
Yeah.

1298
00:58:51.059 --> 00:58:54.960
Yeah, but I think this is sort of competent and interesting in a

1299
00:58:54.960 --> 00:58:57.000
way that Voyager doesn't always matter.

1300
00:58:57.059 --> 00:58:57.659
That is true.

1301
00:58:57.719 --> 00:58:59.699
We've seen a few like that.

1302
00:58:59.760 --> 00:59:01.619
Yeah, yeah.

1303
00:59:01.679 --> 00:59:05.400
Whereas this is, you know, it's fun and there's actual sort of

1304
00:59:05.400 --> 00:59:05.760
action.

1305
00:59:05.820 --> 00:59:07.559
Do you know who directs this episode?

1306
00:59:08.219 --> 00:59:12.059
It's a different director for each part, even though it's one big

1307
00:59:12.059 --> 00:59:12.599
thing.

1308
00:59:12.659 --> 00:59:14.460
This is directed by Victor LeBaule.

1309
00:59:14.579 --> 00:59:18.179
And you and I have recently seen an episode directed by Vita

1310
00:59:18.179 --> 00:59:19.980
LaBole, and that was in the...

1311
00:59:19.980 --> 00:59:21.900
I think I want to call him Victor Lerble.

1312
00:59:21.960 --> 00:59:23.519
Okay, well, maybe that's it.

1313
00:59:23.639 --> 00:59:26.280
But it was in it was in the Pale Moonlight, which was a very

1314
00:59:26.280 --> 00:59:29.400
stylised piece and very contained.

1315
00:59:29.400 --> 00:59:32.039
And this is the complete opposite of that, isn't it?

1316
00:59:32.099 --> 00:59:32.340
You know?

1317
00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:35.039
Yeah, yeah, it's running around at action and stuff.

1318
00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:41.820
Look, I mean, Star Trek, the original series aspired to do action

1319
00:59:41.820 --> 00:59:45.840
and usually the way it achieved it was by having fist fights

1320
00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:50.699
because they're kind of cheap to stage, I guess.

1321
00:59:51.300 --> 00:59:52.860
There he is.

1322
00:59:52.920 --> 00:59:55.860
William Shatner, I guess, thought it really Butch and Tatty, you

1323
00:59:55.860 --> 00:59:56.039
know?

1324
00:59:56.099 --> 00:59:59.159
Yeah, yeah, he was awesome last week when he was kicking that guy

1325
00:59:59.159 --> 00:59:59.639
in the chest.

1326
00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:01.139
I mean, I've already set up.

1327
01:00:01.199 --> 01:00:03.480
There's nothing wrong with the motive of just having a lot of fun

1328
01:00:03.480 --> 01:00:06.000
and delivering that fun to the audience.

1329
01:00:06.480 --> 01:00:14.460
I think my big issue is, is there is another Star Trek show that

1330
01:00:14.460 --> 01:00:15.719
is on the air at the same time.

1331
01:00:15.719 --> 01:00:18.659
That's just doing more thoughtful things.

1332
01:00:18.719 --> 01:00:20.039
Yeah, yeah.

1333
01:00:20.099 --> 01:00:20.579
Yeah.

1334
01:00:20.639 --> 01:00:22.920
And so here.

1335
01:00:22.980 --> 01:00:25.980
Wait, I can't remember who's had there.

1336
01:00:26.099 --> 01:00:31.079
Have this guy, like Beltran hasn't had his neural interface turned

1337
01:00:31.079 --> 01:00:31.380
off?

1338
01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:36.539
No, and he still thinks he still thinks, yeah, that's right.

1339
01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:39.659
No, no, he's boring when it gets switched off as well.

1340
01:00:40.079 --> 01:00:43.199
I can't tell the president of performance.

1341
01:00:43.260 --> 01:00:46.440
He still thinks he's an American troop guy, right?

1342
01:00:46.500 --> 01:00:49.619
But the others don't. isn't that right?

1343
01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:51.539
Yeah That's right.

1344
01:00:51.599 --> 01:00:51.900
Yes.

1345
01:00:51.960 --> 01:00:52.260
Yeah, yeah.

1346
01:00:52.320 --> 01:00:55.199
Oh, no, I think Tom Harris still thinks he is an American troop as

1347
01:00:55.199 --> 01:00:55.380
well.

1348
01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:56.760
Oh, yeah. why is that?

1349
01:00:56.820 --> 01:01:00.480
I don't quite understand what the in-story reason for that is.

1350
01:01:00.599 --> 01:01:02.699
Because there isn't any difference in the performance?

1351
01:01:02.820 --> 01:01:03.659
don't know.

1352
01:01:03.719 --> 01:01:06.360
Well, maybe, isn't what happened?

1353
01:01:06.420 --> 01:01:09.239
We deactivated a few people's chips and then the hierogen found

1354
01:01:09.239 --> 01:01:12.480
out and put a stop to it and so that that's where we are.

1355
01:01:12.539 --> 01:01:15.780
There's no story reasoning because there's no reason later on in

1356
01:01:15.780 --> 01:01:18.059
this episode as to why they have to be.

1357
01:01:18.119 --> 01:01:20.579
Like, at one point, there's a big explosion and suddenly

1358
01:01:20.579 --> 01:01:21.780
everybody's themselves again.

1359
01:01:21.900 --> 01:01:23.519
Yeah, yeah, we break the.

1360
01:01:23.639 --> 01:01:27.360
Oh, they they explode the something in the in Sick Bay, don't

1361
01:01:27.360 --> 01:01:27.539
they?

1362
01:01:27.599 --> 01:01:29.760
The thing that controls the neural interface. right.

1363
01:01:29.820 --> 01:01:32.760
And a really fake looking CGI explosion.

1364
01:01:32.820 --> 01:01:37.500
Well, we had a pretty great fake looking CGI explosion in part

1365
01:01:37.500 --> 01:01:37.980
one.

1366
01:01:38.039 --> 01:01:40.380
That was nice. was pretty good.

1367
01:01:40.440 --> 01:01:41.820
Oh, all of this.

1368
01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:43.800
I'm sorry, Tom Paris and B'lana.

1369
01:01:43.860 --> 01:01:47.400
And oh, you're carrying my baby and oh, God almighty.

1370
01:01:47.460 --> 01:01:50.639
No, well, she's carrying the German baby.

1371
01:01:50.699 --> 01:01:52.679
I mean, it's super upsetting.

1372
01:01:52.739 --> 01:01:53.579
I thought it was his.

1373
01:01:53.639 --> 01:01:56.699
No, no, he was there years ago.

1374
01:01:56.760 --> 01:01:58.559
So she's, yeah, yeah.

1375
01:01:58.619 --> 01:02:01.679
But it's like these 2 are, you know, this is the season where

1376
01:02:01.679 --> 01:02:03.780
these 2 are starting to get romantically linked.

1377
01:02:03.840 --> 01:02:07.860
So within the program as well, they're romantically linked and how

1378
01:02:07.860 --> 01:02:09.900
much more interesting would it have been had it been just 2

1379
01:02:09.900 --> 01:02:11.219
characters that weren't?

1380
01:02:11.400 --> 01:02:14.340
Or they hated one another or something.

1381
01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:15.480
I don't know.

1382
01:02:15.539 --> 01:02:18.179
I don't, well, but he could have come in, you would like, you

1383
01:02:18.179 --> 01:02:19.260
jerry bag, you know.

1384
01:02:19.320 --> 01:02:25.500
I think we want I think that we want that romance arc to appear.

1385
01:02:25.559 --> 01:02:28.679
You know, it's kind of like even when I'm in a simulation, I don't

1386
01:02:28.679 --> 01:02:30.179
know who I am, I'm attracted to you.

1387
01:02:30.239 --> 01:02:31.739
I think that's okay.

1388
01:02:31.800 --> 01:02:33.539
It's just a bit obvious.

1389
01:02:33.599 --> 01:02:35.880
I'm being a bit critical now, aren't I?

1390
01:02:36.059 --> 01:02:37.800
Do you know why?

1391
01:02:37.860 --> 01:02:41.280
Because I think in this episode, we, like, somewhere in the middle

1392
01:02:41.280 --> 01:02:44.159
of this episode, my goodwill ran out a little bit.

1393
01:02:44.219 --> 01:02:46.500
Yeah, it sags horribly.

1394
01:02:46.559 --> 01:02:51.360
My goodwill runs out in the Klingon scenes in holiday. too.

1395
01:02:51.420 --> 01:02:53.880
I think they're not necessary.

1396
01:02:53.940 --> 01:02:56.219
I don't know why they weren't cut.

1397
01:02:56.280 --> 01:02:57.119
I think they're terrible.

1398
01:02:57.239 --> 01:02:58.679
Well, maybe it's for time.

1399
01:02:58.739 --> 01:03:00.539
If they had to give Harry Kimmel the extra time.

1400
01:03:00.599 --> 01:03:02.639
Maybe they were just like, well, we need to pat this out a bit.

1401
01:03:02.699 --> 01:03:03.900
Yeah, yeah.

1402
01:03:03.960 --> 01:03:07.559
I mean, you get the spectacle of the Klingons invading the French

1403
01:03:07.559 --> 01:03:10.559
village at the end, which, you know, that's quite amusing.

1404
01:03:10.619 --> 01:03:15.000
You do get that wonderful bit where Neelix keeps slapping the

1405
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:16.920
doctor and the doctor just goes, please don't do that.

1406
01:03:19.559 --> 01:03:23.159
Yeah, well, I think that they think those scenes between Neelix

1407
01:03:23.159 --> 01:03:24.719
and the doctor are funnier than they are.

1408
01:03:24.780 --> 01:03:28.980
I think they're less successful than, well, you know, you've got

1409
01:03:28.980 --> 01:03:32.159
Ethan Phillips and Robert Picardo, you would think that would work

1410
01:03:32.159 --> 01:03:34.920
but I think maybe the dialogue is a bit too shit.

1411
01:03:34.980 --> 01:03:38.699
I guarantee one of those actors can deliver lions extremely well.

1412
01:03:39.360 --> 01:03:43.559
I think even Phillips, like I said, I think he's very good at what

1413
01:03:43.559 --> 01:03:44.760
he's called on to do.

1414
01:03:44.820 --> 01:03:46.619
How do you know I wasn't talking about Ethan Phillips?

1415
01:03:48.300 --> 01:03:52.380
You know, I'm saying very hot about Kate Mull group going around

1416
01:03:52.380 --> 01:03:53.099
with a gun, you know.

1417
01:03:53.159 --> 01:03:55.500
Remember that episode where she's going around looking for that

1418
01:03:55.500 --> 01:03:58.739
CGI virus and she goes, oh, Ripley, and she's going around in the

1419
01:03:58.739 --> 01:03:59.219
tank top.

1420
01:03:59.280 --> 01:04:01.199
Oh, shit, yeah.

1421
01:04:01.260 --> 01:04:02.460
What's that episode called?

1422
01:04:02.519 --> 01:04:03.659
Macrocosm.

1423
01:04:03.780 --> 01:04:04.619
Macrocosm.

1424
01:04:04.679 --> 01:04:06.659
It's really, really awful. terrible.

1425
01:04:06.719 --> 01:04:08.639
I know about Star Trek.

1426
01:04:08.760 --> 01:04:10.559
No, you don't.

1427
01:04:10.619 --> 01:04:12.960
Every time we roll that round, you're like, well, what's that?

1428
01:04:13.019 --> 01:04:14.460
I don't know what that is.

1429
01:04:14.519 --> 01:04:17.940
One episode she went, why the hell do I have a Star Trek podcast?

1430
01:04:21.900 --> 01:04:22.559
episode one.

1431
01:04:22.739 --> 01:04:24.539
So here...

1432
01:04:24.539 --> 01:04:27.300
She is Janeway now, isn't she?

1433
01:04:27.360 --> 01:04:31.320
She's not Katrine because at that point in the last episode where

1434
01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:32.519
she was going to shoot seven.

1435
01:04:32.579 --> 01:04:35.460
That's when she got when it starts.

1436
01:04:35.519 --> 01:04:38.880
And I do think this is a good Janeway episode.

1437
01:04:38.940 --> 01:04:41.519
Like she gets to do a lot of improvisation.

1438
01:04:41.639 --> 01:04:43.079
She gets a lot of action.

1439
01:04:43.139 --> 01:04:45.539
I love the bits where she's running around the ship being

1440
01:04:45.539 --> 01:04:46.019
hunting.

1441
01:04:46.199 --> 01:04:48.179
Yeah, yeah.

1442
01:04:48.239 --> 01:04:51.659
Yeah, and she gets shot and, you know, like, doesn't she?

1443
01:04:51.719 --> 01:04:52.500
like in the leg.

1444
01:04:52.559 --> 01:04:53.579
She's really good.

1445
01:04:53.639 --> 01:04:55.739
And she outstinks him by being like...

1446
01:04:55.739 --> 01:04:58.260
No, don't don't hurt me, please.

1447
01:04:58.320 --> 01:05:01.860
Just the game to come a bit closer unless she blows the shit out

1448
01:05:01.860 --> 01:05:02.579
of here, isn't it?

1449
01:05:02.639 --> 01:05:03.840
Yeah, yeah.

1450
01:05:03.900 --> 01:05:05.340
Yeah, it's really good.

1451
01:05:05.400 --> 01:05:06.239
She is great.

1452
01:05:06.300 --> 01:05:09.420
I actually, all right. going to say something nice about Robert

1453
01:05:09.420 --> 01:05:10.199
Beltran.

1454
01:05:10.260 --> 01:05:11.340
Oh, so you ready?

1455
01:05:11.400 --> 01:05:12.000
Sit down.

1456
01:05:12.119 --> 01:05:15.059
I think his hair looks great in this.

1457
01:05:15.179 --> 01:05:16.199
Oh my god.

1458
01:05:16.260 --> 01:05:18.480
I was going to talk about his hair earlier, but actually, I think

1459
01:05:18.480 --> 01:05:19.980
you know, when he had a bit of gray in it.

1460
01:05:20.039 --> 01:05:20.940
There is one and two.

1461
01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:23.099
He looked super hot back then.

1462
01:05:23.159 --> 01:05:23.940
Yeah.

1463
01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:25.800
Yeah, no, he's a handsome man.

1464
01:05:26.699 --> 01:05:30.300
Like there's Don't make a rip a character, though, does it?

1465
01:05:30.360 --> 01:05:31.380
No.

1466
01:05:31.500 --> 01:05:35.400
Look, you wouldn't cast, if you had a Native American character

1467
01:05:35.400 --> 01:05:40.260
now, you couldn't cast someone who wasn't Native American like

1468
01:05:40.260 --> 01:05:40.860
they have here.

1469
01:05:40.920 --> 01:05:48.000
And there's a problem then with all of his kind of Native American

1470
01:05:48.000 --> 01:05:49.139
shtick, I think.

1471
01:05:49.260 --> 01:05:52.079
Well, the fact the fact that they have the nerve to bring in what

1472
01:05:52.079 --> 01:05:55.739
they thought was a Native American specialist who turned out to be

1473
01:05:55.739 --> 01:05:58.260
make, you know, he got it all off the back of a serial packet or

1474
01:05:58.260 --> 01:05:58.559
something.

1475
01:05:58.619 --> 01:06:00.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1476
01:06:00.059 --> 01:06:00.960
I mean, yeah.

1477
01:06:01.139 --> 01:06:03.719
I think that's that's bad.

1478
01:06:03.780 --> 01:06:07.980
And that was kind of an important aspect of his character, but I

1479
01:06:07.980 --> 01:06:09.360
think he checks out.

1480
01:06:09.420 --> 01:06:13.079
Think about Tim Russ, who is underserved all the time.

1481
01:06:13.139 --> 01:06:16.980
He's shoved up the back of that fucking bridge and he gets nothing

1482
01:06:16.980 --> 01:06:18.300
to do.

1483
01:06:18.360 --> 01:06:23.039
And he still delivers like he's still trying. in a way that

1484
01:06:23.039 --> 01:06:24.780
Beltran doesn't seem to be, I think.

1485
01:06:24.840 --> 01:06:29.280
You remember when I watched series one of Voyager a little while

1486
01:06:29.280 --> 01:06:29.699
back?

1487
01:06:29.760 --> 01:06:32.820
You know, I wanted a bit of escapism and I stuck that on.

1488
01:06:32.880 --> 01:06:33.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1489
01:06:33.480 --> 01:06:36.659
I was really struck at how much they gave Tim Russell to do in the

1490
01:06:36.659 --> 01:06:37.199
series one.

1491
01:06:37.260 --> 01:06:40.199
How strong his relationship with Mulru was.

1492
01:06:40.260 --> 01:06:43.139
And in episodes like Prime Factors where he managed to be like

1493
01:06:43.139 --> 01:06:47.400
really surprising and I was watching that going, well, what

1494
01:06:47.400 --> 01:06:47.760
happened?

1495
01:06:47.880 --> 01:06:49.559
He's really good.

1496
01:06:49.679 --> 01:06:50.820
Like, what happens?

1497
01:06:51.179 --> 01:06:55.380
Now, have a look at this doctor, have a look at sort of Dr. Mengele

1498
01:06:55.380 --> 01:06:59.519
the Herogen, and you can see that it's the master from Buffy.

1499
01:06:59.579 --> 01:07:02.219
I can see him rising up out of a pool of blood.

1500
01:07:02.219 --> 01:07:06.300
He's pretty good.

1501
01:07:07.139 --> 01:07:09.179
Oh no, here we go.

1502
01:07:09.239 --> 01:07:11.579
Back into stock cave set number 64.

1503
01:07:12.659 --> 01:07:16.199
So this is so fucking cheap as well.

1504
01:07:16.260 --> 01:07:17.880
They've got 2 Klingons.

1505
01:07:17.940 --> 01:07:19.320
That's all they have.

1506
01:07:19.380 --> 01:07:21.840
It's the same cave, you know, where they went in a strange new

1507
01:07:21.840 --> 01:07:24.599
world that Enterprise episode.

1508
01:07:24.659 --> 01:07:26.099
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1509
01:07:26.159 --> 01:07:26.699
It's terrible.

1510
01:07:26.760 --> 01:07:30.960
Not only are they stuck poor even Felix under all of that latex.

1511
01:07:31.079 --> 01:07:32.340
They put him in front of a bloody fire.

1512
01:07:32.400 --> 01:07:34.199
Yeah, yeah.

1513
01:07:34.380 --> 01:07:36.179
Poor son.

1514
01:07:36.239 --> 01:07:40.079
But like there's a huge battle happening, like what, just kind of

1515
01:07:40.079 --> 01:07:42.300
offscreen, just offscreen.

1516
01:07:42.360 --> 01:07:44.820
There are a lot of Kleons that are that you're going to fight with

1517
01:07:44.820 --> 01:07:45.059
them.

1518
01:07:45.119 --> 01:07:47.579
You find the money runs out.

1519
01:07:47.639 --> 01:07:49.320
Yeah, that's right.

1520
01:07:50.820 --> 01:07:54.539
Well, no, because there's more than two, isn't there, when they

1521
01:07:54.539 --> 01:07:55.619
attack the French?

1522
01:07:55.679 --> 01:07:56.280
Oh, yeah, yeah.

1523
01:07:56.340 --> 01:07:58.739
When they attack the village, they've got heaps of Klingons come

1524
01:07:58.739 --> 01:08:02.099
in. but here we can't afford them. think they cover it with a

1525
01:08:02.099 --> 01:08:02.280
line.

1526
01:08:02.340 --> 01:08:03.780
He says, go and get your comrades.

1527
01:08:03.840 --> 01:08:07.380
We're off So bad.

1528
01:08:07.440 --> 01:08:09.119
They're boring.

1529
01:08:09.239 --> 01:08:10.559
Oh, no.

1530
01:08:10.619 --> 01:08:11.639
Oh, see, now look.

1531
01:08:11.699 --> 01:08:14.699
Instantly Harry Kim's less interesting because they paired him out

1532
01:08:14.699 --> 01:08:15.539
with Tom Paris again.

1533
01:08:15.659 --> 01:08:17.579
Yeah, yeah.

1534
01:08:17.640 --> 01:08:19.680
But although, do you remember that?

1535
01:08:19.680 --> 01:08:20.220
I heard right.

1536
01:08:20.279 --> 01:08:24.119
Where they went, called the chute, where they're stuck in that

1537
01:08:24.119 --> 01:08:26.579
prison, which is turns out to be like a space station or

1538
01:08:26.579 --> 01:08:26.760
whatever.

1539
01:08:27.720 --> 01:08:32.699
Tom Paris gets stabbed and they're they're almost going to kiss

1540
01:08:32.699 --> 01:08:33.479
the pair of them.

1541
01:08:33.539 --> 01:08:36.539
It gets really like homoerotic between them.

1542
01:08:36.600 --> 01:08:38.819
Yeah. sort of hurt comfort, isn't it?

1543
01:08:38.880 --> 01:08:40.920
Would have been quite interesting, you know, to see that develop.

1544
01:08:41.220 --> 01:08:44.220
Yeah, it's not going to happen, is it?

1545
01:08:44.279 --> 01:08:46.140
And look how heterosexual it is.

1546
01:08:46.199 --> 01:08:48.479
It's kind of like if Betty Grabel came around that corner.

1547
01:08:48.539 --> 01:08:50.279
What part of her would you be staring at?

1548
01:08:50.340 --> 01:08:51.119
He's like, fuck off.

1549
01:08:51.180 --> 01:08:55.260
And that's a sort of horrible Tom Paris thing, you know.

1550
01:08:55.319 --> 01:08:58.020
The way this show deals with sex.

1551
01:08:58.079 --> 01:09:00.479
We talked about it before. dreadful.

1552
01:09:00.539 --> 01:09:02.279
It's so bad.

1553
01:09:02.340 --> 01:09:07.439
And compared to how Star Trek is with it now. horribly, it's even

1554
01:09:07.439 --> 01:09:10.020
horribly sexist or it's incredibly chaste.

1555
01:09:10.079 --> 01:09:14.039
It's not what it should be, which is very sexy and, you know

1556
01:09:14.039 --> 01:09:15.479
open.

1557
01:09:15.600 --> 01:09:16.500
Yeah.

1558
01:09:16.560 --> 01:09:20.039
Or kind of sophomoric or sort of high school. you know, it's like

1559
01:09:20.039 --> 01:09:23.220
the Delaney sisters, you know, like maybe I get to fuck both of

1560
01:09:23.220 --> 01:09:25.140
them or something and it's just sort of yuck.

1561
01:09:25.199 --> 01:09:27.960
I mean, they could have done, you know, they could have lent into

1562
01:09:27.960 --> 01:09:31.380
Janeway and Chakotay again, and, you know, their characters are

1563
01:09:31.380 --> 01:09:33.539
fucking, you know, that would have been quite exciting.

1564
01:09:33.600 --> 01:09:34.500
Yeah, yeah.

1565
01:09:34.560 --> 01:09:37.260
Imagine a pair of them down the Jeffreys tube right now, you know

1566
01:09:37.260 --> 01:09:38.159
rolling about.

1567
01:09:38.220 --> 01:09:38.699
Yeah.

1568
01:09:38.880 --> 01:09:40.319
Yeah.

1569
01:09:41.100 --> 01:09:42.060
Oh, God.

1570
01:09:42.119 --> 01:09:43.500
I don't know, though.

1571
01:09:43.560 --> 01:09:46.920
You know, just like in enterprise where they try to make it more

1572
01:09:46.920 --> 01:09:50.279
sexy, you know, they're they're naked and rubbing gel into each

1573
01:09:50.279 --> 01:09:53.220
other's naked bodies and things and it's all, it's really

1574
01:09:53.220 --> 01:09:53.520
terrible.

1575
01:09:54.300 --> 01:09:56.699
What was the one that I was watching?

1576
01:09:56.760 --> 01:10:03.779
I was watching one where she takes her top off and um, a trip is

1577
01:10:03.779 --> 01:10:04.859
massaging her.

1578
01:10:04.920 --> 01:10:05.699
Oh, that's serious free.

1579
01:10:05.760 --> 01:10:09.000
No, there's a whole thread of them having, you know, massages

1580
01:10:09.000 --> 01:10:09.840
throughout Series 3.

1581
01:10:10.199 --> 01:10:14.520
You know, to because they're so stressful and the Delphic in

1582
01:10:14.520 --> 01:10:15.300
fact.

1583
01:10:15.300 --> 01:10:15.779
Yeah.

1584
01:10:16.680 --> 01:10:20.399
I think, yeah, maybe it was anomaly or something, I can't

1585
01:10:20.399 --> 01:10:20.699
remember.

1586
01:10:20.760 --> 01:10:25.500
So the other thing here too, which is just super embarrassing, is

1587
01:10:25.500 --> 01:10:30.840
that there are Klingon subtitles that we can watch and they bear

1588
01:10:30.840 --> 01:10:34.859
absolutely no relationship to anything that comes out of Neelix's

1589
01:10:34.859 --> 01:10:35.579
mouth.

1590
01:10:35.640 --> 01:10:40.020
So Ethan Phillips has been unable or unwilling to learn the shitty

1591
01:10:40.020 --> 01:10:41.100
clean.

1592
01:10:41.159 --> 01:10:43.020
I want to say I'm willing.

1593
01:10:44.279 --> 01:10:48.840
I'm sorry, it's still better than those shitty scenes in the 1st

1594
01:10:48.840 --> 01:10:49.739
discovery episode.

1595
01:10:49.800 --> 01:10:51.359
So good.

1596
01:10:51.420 --> 01:10:52.979
So terrifying.

1597
01:10:53.039 --> 01:10:54.539
Terrifying.

1598
01:10:54.539 --> 01:10:56.640
Terrifyingly dull.

1599
01:10:56.699 --> 01:11:01.260
That 1st speech where he gives the thing to camera and then ends

1600
01:11:01.260 --> 01:11:03.539
up speaking in English at the end, I think, is really good.

1601
01:11:03.600 --> 01:11:07.979
That's an effort to make the Klingons properly scary and alien

1602
01:11:07.979 --> 01:11:10.199
which they need to be for discovery to work.

1603
01:11:10.260 --> 01:11:11.399
Oh, totally.

1604
01:11:11.399 --> 01:11:11.880
Series one.

1605
01:11:11.939 --> 01:11:13.560
Well, here.

1606
01:11:13.560 --> 01:11:14.399
No, then.

1607
01:11:14.520 --> 01:11:16.380
No, no, no.

1608
01:11:16.439 --> 01:11:18.960
But here, right, you've got all this Klingon dialogue.

1609
01:11:19.020 --> 01:11:24.180
The Klingons are so domesticated by this point, that, you know

1610
01:11:24.180 --> 01:11:26.100
they're just kind of, they're no threat.

1611
01:11:26.100 --> 01:11:28.920
And discovery makes them a threat in series.

1612
01:11:28.920 --> 01:11:30.659
I think, you know, as properly.

1613
01:11:30.720 --> 01:11:32.579
It's just like, oh, let's bring in the Klingons.

1614
01:11:32.640 --> 01:11:34.380
Everyone loves the Klingons, you know.

1615
01:11:34.439 --> 01:11:40.380
No, but I mean, they're trying to examine what America is like.

1616
01:11:40.380 --> 01:11:42.359
No, not in discovery here.

1617
01:11:42.420 --> 01:11:43.380
Oh, here.

1618
01:11:43.380 --> 01:11:44.880
It's just sheep, isn't it?

1619
01:11:44.880 --> 01:11:45.479
For fuck's sake.

1620
01:11:45.539 --> 01:11:46.260
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1621
01:11:46.319 --> 01:11:49.140
We've got the fucking costumes like around.

1622
01:11:49.199 --> 01:11:51.960
I have the nerve in series 7.

1623
01:11:52.020 --> 01:11:56.460
But they run into this Klingon ship that got lost in the Delta

1624
01:11:56.460 --> 01:12:01.199
Quadrant. and they've been looking for the great saviour and

1625
01:12:01.199 --> 01:12:04.439
they're convinced it's Balana Torres's baby for some reason.

1626
01:12:04.500 --> 01:12:08.279
I mean, it's just, yeah, I don't know if anyone was actually

1627
01:12:08.279 --> 01:12:09.600
scripted it in at that point.

1628
01:12:12.479 --> 01:12:16.020
You know, the doctor is a little underserved in this, isn't he?

1629
01:12:16.079 --> 01:12:19.079
Yeah, yeah, it's a bit of a shame.

1630
01:12:19.319 --> 01:12:22.619
He does a good job in, you know, like just sort of popping into

1631
01:12:22.619 --> 01:12:26.159
existence and out of existence with and talking to Harry.

1632
01:12:26.220 --> 01:12:29.579
I thought that was really great in episode one.

1633
01:12:29.640 --> 01:12:32.340
But here he's just stuck on the...

1634
01:12:32.399 --> 01:12:34.439
Is there a fit later on where we...

1635
01:12:34.500 --> 01:12:37.199
He steps out from under like and it's raining and he just steps

1636
01:12:37.199 --> 01:12:37.800
back in again.

1637
01:12:37.859 --> 01:12:38.579
He's like, no.

1638
01:12:40.079 --> 01:12:44.819
Like, Ricardo can do anything with a look or a lie, can't he?

1639
01:12:44.880 --> 01:12:46.500
You know, like he makes everything quiet music.

1640
01:12:46.560 --> 01:12:47.939
He is good.

1641
01:12:48.000 --> 01:12:51.239
But he's he's really not given much to do here.

1642
01:12:51.300 --> 01:12:53.640
This is sort of bad.

1643
01:12:53.699 --> 01:12:54.539
I like that.

1644
01:12:54.539 --> 01:13:00.479
How did they manage to make Neelix look even more ugly?

1645
01:13:02.159 --> 01:13:03.479
Yeah, it's the Klingon teeth.

1646
01:13:03.539 --> 01:13:04.859
Those Klingon teeth.

1647
01:13:04.920 --> 01:13:07.380
You know, he's got the little pointy teeth normally and now he's

1648
01:13:07.380 --> 01:13:08.939
got big ugly Klingon teeth.

1649
01:13:09.000 --> 01:13:10.199
And so he looks super weird.

1650
01:13:10.260 --> 01:13:12.779
How is it that managed to make wolves look pretty then?

1651
01:13:12.840 --> 01:13:14.640
Because I think wolfed and the ugly, you know?

1652
01:13:14.699 --> 01:13:16.680
No, no, he's handsome man.

1653
01:13:16.739 --> 01:13:21.060
I think that this is also the money running out where they're all

1654
01:13:21.060 --> 01:13:26.039
just shooting guns out of window. and describing what they're

1655
01:13:26.039 --> 01:13:26.340
seeing.

1656
01:13:26.399 --> 01:13:28.680
Yeah, watch that doson's pregnant.

1657
01:13:28.739 --> 01:13:32.579
Don't give her a gun and tell her to shoot it. no that's cool.

1658
01:13:32.819 --> 01:13:36.899
But like that's cheap as hell.

1659
01:13:36.960 --> 01:13:40.260
They've obviously run out of time on the Paramount lot.

1660
01:13:40.319 --> 01:13:44.460
And so now we just have to have messenger speeches telling us what

1661
01:13:44.460 --> 01:13:46.619
the action is, which is a bit of a shame.

1662
01:13:46.680 --> 01:13:48.420
We will go outside again in a minute.

1663
01:13:49.319 --> 01:13:49.859
Here we are.

1664
01:13:49.920 --> 01:13:50.880
Look, we're outside.

1665
01:13:50.939 --> 01:13:51.899
Yep, yep.

1666
01:13:51.960 --> 01:13:53.220
And we've got people running around.

1667
01:13:53.340 --> 01:13:57.779
I like the fact that the camera was shooting through that archway

1668
01:13:57.779 --> 01:13:59.159
so we had a bit of depth to it as well.

1669
01:13:59.220 --> 01:14:01.020
I'm reaching here, all right?

1670
01:14:01.079 --> 01:14:02.760
No, no, no, no.

1671
01:14:06.539 --> 01:14:10.319
I mean, if this was Discovery right now, there'd be a drone around

1672
01:14:10.319 --> 01:14:13.079
this Paramount lot. filming it all from above, you know.

1673
01:14:13.199 --> 01:14:17.579
Oh, no, the environment would be much weirder than the Paramount

1674
01:14:17.579 --> 01:14:17.939
lot.

1675
01:14:18.000 --> 01:14:18.659
That's the thing.

1676
01:14:18.720 --> 01:14:23.399
This is a little bit, you know, it's it's interesting for Voyager

1677
01:14:23.399 --> 01:14:25.859
but but Discovery is much weirder looking.

1678
01:14:25.920 --> 01:14:32.220
I really like, you saw in that scene, the young Hirogen and our

1679
01:14:32.220 --> 01:14:37.739
Nazi friend have teamed up and that's going to be important for

1680
01:14:37.739 --> 01:14:39.720
how this ends up working, I think.

1681
01:14:40.380 --> 01:14:42.840
There's what's his face?

1682
01:14:42.960 --> 01:14:44.100
There's the master again.

1683
01:14:44.159 --> 01:14:44.399
Yeah.

1684
01:14:44.880 --> 01:14:45.300
A master.

1685
01:14:45.300 --> 01:14:46.500
He becomes Janeway with a gum.

1686
01:14:46.560 --> 01:14:48.779
He's the maestro in Seinfeld as well.

1687
01:14:48.840 --> 01:14:50.460
Elaine.

1688
01:14:50.939 --> 01:14:54.840
That's me whingeing and complaining about, um, you know, oh, this

1689
01:14:54.840 --> 01:14:57.840
is all a bit shallow, this and there's no substance like this.

1690
01:14:57.899 --> 01:15:00.000
And then I go, oh, there's Janeway with a gum.

1691
01:15:00.060 --> 01:15:00.600
You know?

1692
01:15:00.600 --> 01:15:03.779
Yeah, that's what you want to say.

1693
01:15:04.619 --> 01:15:05.819
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1694
01:15:05.880 --> 01:15:08.579
In black, Janeway, all in black, with a gun.

1695
01:15:08.640 --> 01:15:09.359
It's so great.

1696
01:15:09.420 --> 01:15:10.380
So good.

1697
01:15:10.439 --> 01:15:12.239
Yeah, and do you know what?

1698
01:15:12.239 --> 01:15:16.979
I said, when we did the Raven, I said to you, season 4 and 5 of

1699
01:15:16.979 --> 01:15:21.840
Voyager has a confidence to it that the rest of the series kind of

1700
01:15:21.840 --> 01:15:22.319
lacks.

1701
01:15:22.439 --> 01:15:26.159
I just feel like they kind of knew they were onto something this

1702
01:15:26.159 --> 01:15:26.579
season.

1703
01:15:26.699 --> 01:15:29.520
Even if episode every episode ain't great.

1704
01:15:29.699 --> 01:15:32.699
Yeah, there's a pizzazz to it.

1705
01:15:33.239 --> 01:15:39.239
Yeah, I mean, I think this is this is...

1706
01:15:39.359 --> 01:15:44.399
I kind of like how big Hirogan, big hero Hirogan is kind of

1707
01:15:44.399 --> 01:15:45.000
horrible.

1708
01:15:45.060 --> 01:15:48.899
He's not a good guy despite the fact that we're kind of rooting

1709
01:15:48.899 --> 01:15:51.659
for him, you know, Janeway's been shot in the leg.

1710
01:15:51.720 --> 01:15:52.739
Yeah, yeah.

1711
01:15:52.800 --> 01:15:55.439
Yeah, that's definitely like, you know, that's that's that's

1712
01:15:55.439 --> 01:15:57.779
fictional violence there because if that was me, I'd be riving

1713
01:15:57.779 --> 01:15:58.560
around on that floor.

1714
01:15:58.619 --> 01:16:00.239
Like, and I wouldn't get up again.

1715
01:16:00.300 --> 01:16:01.199
I certainly wouldn't be.

1716
01:16:01.260 --> 01:16:01.859
Oh, there we go.

1717
01:16:01.920 --> 01:16:02.579
There's that explosion.

1718
01:16:02.699 --> 01:16:04.199
Yeah.

1719
01:16:04.199 --> 01:16:05.279
Whoa.

1720
01:16:05.340 --> 01:16:07.560
Yeah, it's fake as shit, isn't it?

1721
01:16:07.619 --> 01:16:09.239
It really is unbelievable.

1722
01:16:09.300 --> 01:16:10.020
Awesome.

1723
01:16:13.199 --> 01:16:16.800
Doctor Who was doing explosions 15 years later, they didn't know

1724
01:16:16.800 --> 01:16:17.159
any better.

1725
01:16:17.220 --> 01:16:18.779
No, no.

1726
01:16:18.840 --> 01:16:21.960
And, and, you know, like they're not going to set off an explosion

1727
01:16:21.960 --> 01:16:25.739
in their standing sets, you know, in the in the corridor set that

1728
01:16:25.739 --> 01:16:26.699
they have to use next week.

1729
01:16:26.819 --> 01:16:27.659
That's not gonna happen.

1730
01:16:27.720 --> 01:16:31.319
I feel like back in the day, though, you know, like in both terms

1731
01:16:31.319 --> 01:16:34.260
of Star Trek and Doctor Who, they would have just done a real

1732
01:16:34.260 --> 01:16:35.159
explosion, you know?

1733
01:16:35.220 --> 01:16:37.380
No, they just wouldn't have been able to do it.

1734
01:16:37.439 --> 01:16:40.380
I think they just couldn't because they would damage the standing

1735
01:16:40.380 --> 01:16:40.920
sets.

1736
01:16:40.979 --> 01:16:41.579
It would be a problem.

1737
01:16:41.640 --> 01:16:44.699
Well, Doctor Who blew up things all the time, though, didn't it?

1738
01:16:44.760 --> 01:16:47.520
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. travel.

1739
01:16:47.579 --> 01:16:49.140
And they say, oh, hang on.

1740
01:16:49.199 --> 01:16:52.140
Have we gone past the sequence yet where they make a direct

1741
01:16:52.140 --> 01:16:57.720
comparison between the, was it the Borg and the Nazis or is it

1742
01:16:57.720 --> 01:17:00.300
the...

1743
01:17:00.300 --> 01:17:01.979
No, no, no.

1744
01:17:02.039 --> 01:17:06.180
And and we've already got them being the Nazis, that's the point.

1745
01:17:06.239 --> 01:17:09.960
We don't need the Borg to be mentioned and the Nazis because the

1746
01:17:09.960 --> 01:17:12.779
Herogen are literally wearing Nazi uniforms.

1747
01:17:12.840 --> 01:17:22.979
Um, and like we are about to get that scene, I think, where um, uh

1748
01:17:22.979 --> 01:17:26.819
where the Nazi convinces the young Hirogen to rebel against the

1749
01:17:26.819 --> 01:17:27.239
old one.

1750
01:17:27.300 --> 01:17:32.279
And he'd been on board sort of reluctantly in episode one, but now

1751
01:17:32.279 --> 01:17:34.680
he's in opposition, and I think that's super interesting.

1752
01:17:34.739 --> 01:17:35.880
No, this is it.

1753
01:17:35.939 --> 01:17:37.079
The Borg of their day.

1754
01:17:37.140 --> 01:17:39.479
That is a horror of their day. fascists.

1755
01:17:39.539 --> 01:17:42.420
Well, thank you for that little history, like, I think he's also

1756
01:17:42.420 --> 01:17:45.779
got the little book of Nazis on his shelf as well, next to trucks

1757
01:17:45.779 --> 01:17:46.380
and cartoons.

1758
01:17:47.220 --> 01:17:50.460
He's our he's our main Nazi.

1759
01:17:50.760 --> 01:17:54.060
He does seem to be the expert on everything, doesn't he?

1760
01:17:54.119 --> 01:17:55.020
Tom Paris.

1761
01:17:55.079 --> 01:17:56.640
Yeah, yeah.

1762
01:17:56.699 --> 01:18:02.640
Well, you know, I, it shits me a little bit that you have to be an

1763
01:18:02.640 --> 01:18:05.279
expert on this, you know, that, I don't know.

1764
01:18:05.340 --> 01:18:05.939
I don't know.

1765
01:18:06.000 --> 01:18:08.939
They're trying to make them be from the future and make our

1766
01:18:08.939 --> 01:18:10.979
present kind of alien.

1767
01:18:11.039 --> 01:18:14.039
And I guess some of them are not from Earth or whatever.

1768
01:18:14.159 --> 01:18:16.380
Is this character this Nazi character?

1769
01:18:16.439 --> 01:18:17.039
Is he interesting?

1770
01:18:17.100 --> 01:18:20.760
Because I'm not sure if he's all that interesting, you know. acted

1771
01:18:20.760 --> 01:18:21.239
but...

1772
01:18:21.239 --> 01:18:23.699
Well, I think it gets interesting.

1773
01:18:23.760 --> 01:18:25.079
I think he has an important role.

1774
01:18:25.140 --> 01:18:27.960
And like I said, he's got the 2 speeches.

1775
01:18:28.020 --> 01:18:32.819
One in episode one with the old Herogen and one in the 2nd episode

1776
01:18:32.819 --> 01:18:34.260
with the young Herogen.

1777
01:18:34.319 --> 01:18:37.380
And those speeches are important, I think.

1778
01:18:37.439 --> 01:18:41.220
He also gets the thing about art, which I think has something.

1779
01:18:41.279 --> 01:18:46.500
Yeah, you know, like the Nazis plunder for art and he's interested

1780
01:18:46.500 --> 01:18:47.699
in art.

1781
01:18:47.699 --> 01:18:52.140
And, you know, the old Herogen is interested in art.

1782
01:18:52.199 --> 01:18:53.340
He's here.

1783
01:18:53.640 --> 01:18:58.619
You know, this is like the holodeck programs are things that are

1784
01:18:58.619 --> 01:19:01.199
created by humans in a creative way.

1785
01:19:01.260 --> 01:19:04.800
They're kind of art, they're like TV, aren't they?

1786
01:19:04.859 --> 01:19:06.060
That's what we kind of think.

1787
01:19:06.060 --> 01:19:11.579
This is the World War 2 resistance TV show holodeck program.

1788
01:19:11.640 --> 01:19:15.239
I mean, the Hirogen art just seems to be, you know, decorative

1789
01:19:15.239 --> 01:19:16.739
skulls all over the world.

1790
01:19:16.800 --> 01:19:21.539
Well, I did like the fact that they put it all over Janeway's...

1791
01:19:21.600 --> 01:19:22.380
Yeah, I did too.

1792
01:19:22.439 --> 01:19:24.180
And she looks at it kind of.

1793
01:19:24.239 --> 01:19:27.000
I don't think she says anything, but she does kind of look and

1794
01:19:27.000 --> 01:19:28.260
he's not super happy about it.

1795
01:19:28.319 --> 01:19:30.479
It would be great at the end of the episode where she went, oh, I

1796
01:19:30.479 --> 01:19:31.619
should be intimidating people more.

1797
01:19:31.680 --> 01:19:32.279
Let's keep him.

1798
01:19:32.340 --> 01:19:32.819
I am.

1799
01:19:32.880 --> 01:19:33.420
I keep them.

1800
01:19:36.659 --> 01:19:39.300
Oh God, here we go.

1801
01:19:39.359 --> 01:19:40.439
Back to the Klingons.

1802
01:19:43.140 --> 01:19:46.800
Yeah, we're a bit no, this is a bit desperate now, isn't it?

1803
01:19:46.859 --> 01:19:48.479
Yeah, this is a bit desperate.

1804
01:19:48.539 --> 01:19:49.739
Like, they're trying something.

1805
01:19:49.859 --> 01:19:53.699
I'll reattach any severed limbs, just don't misplace them as

1806
01:19:53.699 --> 01:19:54.000
pretty good.

1807
01:19:54.060 --> 01:19:55.680
Did you hear that?

1808
01:19:55.680 --> 01:19:57.600
Tally ho.

1809
01:19:57.960 --> 01:20:00.060
Tally funny.

1810
01:20:00.060 --> 01:20:00.960
It's so funny.

1811
01:20:01.020 --> 01:20:05.279
And he does a little thing, like he waves the dagger around.

1812
01:20:05.939 --> 01:20:08.880
Picardo, man. so good.

1813
01:20:08.939 --> 01:20:09.359
Yeah.

1814
01:20:09.359 --> 01:20:10.800
He really, really is.

1815
01:20:10.859 --> 01:20:15.239
Yeah, now here's Janeway looking around at the skulls and the and

1816
01:20:15.239 --> 01:20:15.960
the weapons.

1817
01:20:16.020 --> 01:20:18.600
I see you've done some redecorating blesser.

1818
01:20:19.920 --> 01:20:24.180
Jerry's got a nasty score on his face there, isn't he?

1819
01:20:24.239 --> 01:20:25.140
That herogen.

1820
01:20:25.199 --> 01:20:25.739
Yeah, yeah.

1821
01:20:26.220 --> 01:20:28.859
I think it's to help us distinguish them.

1822
01:20:28.979 --> 01:20:31.800
I mean, they've got different shaped heads and different colouring

1823
01:20:31.800 --> 01:20:34.020
and I think he's greyer, like white hair.

1824
01:20:34.079 --> 01:20:34.920
It's different. as well.

1825
01:20:34.979 --> 01:20:39.420
But it's like an instant, distinctive feature, isn't it?

1826
01:20:39.479 --> 01:20:41.220
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1827
01:20:41.340 --> 01:20:46.319
I, oh, and he's wearing a Klingon, he's wearing a Klingon outfit

1828
01:20:46.319 --> 01:20:50.579
instead of a hirogen outfit because, again, the fiction and the

1829
01:20:50.579 --> 01:20:54.720
reality is, you know, bleeding into each other.

1830
01:20:54.779 --> 01:20:57.180
Well, the fiction and the other fiction, I keep saying.

1831
01:20:57.180 --> 01:21:06.960
Um, I really like this too, because he's explaining what's

1832
01:21:06.960 --> 01:21:11.520
happening, you know, he, he's telling her and she buys it.

1833
01:21:11.579 --> 01:21:15.239
I think, you know, she's on his side because what he wants.

1834
01:21:15.300 --> 01:21:18.119
Yeah, I'm trying to create a future for my people.

1835
01:21:18.479 --> 01:21:22.920
Um, This is the discovery route, isn't there?

1836
01:21:22.979 --> 01:21:25.560
But this is, you know what I mean?

1837
01:21:25.619 --> 01:21:29.939
It's aspiring to be better. building friendships.

1838
01:21:30.060 --> 01:21:32.760
Yeah, making a gesture.

1839
01:21:32.819 --> 01:21:37.979
It's all of those things that we should aspire to do instead of

1840
01:21:37.979 --> 01:21:38.340
fighting.

1841
01:21:38.399 --> 01:21:39.960
Well, look at J.

1842
01:21:39.960 --> 01:21:40.199
Ray.

1843
01:21:40.260 --> 01:21:42.000
She looks very comfortable sitting in that chair.

1844
01:21:42.119 --> 01:21:44.579
I know what she's got a sore leg.

1845
01:21:44.640 --> 01:21:45.720
You don't intimidate me.

1846
01:21:45.779 --> 01:21:47.939
Yeah, she's been shot in that leg.

1847
01:21:48.000 --> 01:21:48.720
I mean come on.

1848
01:21:48.779 --> 01:21:49.859
Yeah.

1849
01:21:49.859 --> 01:21:51.119
You're being bloody agony.

1850
01:21:51.180 --> 01:21:52.979
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1851
01:21:53.039 --> 01:21:59.460
Well, Sanequo did stabbed in the leg in discovery recently and was

1852
01:21:59.460 --> 01:22:02.520
kind of, you know, trying to get around and get control of the

1853
01:22:02.520 --> 01:22:02.939
ship.

1854
01:22:03.000 --> 01:22:04.079
Or was that something that was that?

1855
01:22:04.260 --> 01:22:04.920
I can't remember.

1856
01:22:04.979 --> 01:22:05.760
Do you remember where the was?

1857
01:22:05.819 --> 01:22:08.100
All right, when Kira was stabbed in the gut.

1858
01:22:08.159 --> 01:22:11.220
And then we come back to her and she's literally lying against the

1859
01:22:11.220 --> 01:22:12.420
console with blood everywhere.

1860
01:22:12.420 --> 01:22:14.640
And it's like, yeah, that's what we would be like.

1861
01:22:14.760 --> 01:22:16.140
Yeah, yeah.

1862
01:22:16.199 --> 01:22:17.039
Yeah.

1863
01:22:17.100 --> 01:22:18.659
Although she does have the lie.

1864
01:22:18.720 --> 01:22:19.199
No worries.

1865
01:22:19.260 --> 01:22:20.819
It looks worse than it is.

1866
01:22:22.260 --> 01:22:24.119
Bloody fiction.

1867
01:22:24.180 --> 01:22:25.319
All right, all right.

1868
01:22:25.380 --> 01:22:26.159
It is fiction.

1869
01:22:26.880 --> 01:22:29.819
But this, isn't it great?

1870
01:22:29.880 --> 01:22:34.020
The, he has literally used that.

1871
01:22:34.079 --> 01:22:34.920
That's what he wants.

1872
01:22:34.979 --> 01:22:36.060
It's the TV.

1873
01:22:36.119 --> 01:22:42.300
The TV shows that Voyager has in its data database in the holodeck

1874
01:22:42.300 --> 01:22:46.380
database have fascinated him and that's what he wants.

1875
01:22:46.439 --> 01:22:53.880
And it's not what he wants is to do the the hunting thing.

1876
01:22:53.939 --> 01:22:58.079
Instead of doing the hunting thing in reality and the games on the

1877
01:22:58.079 --> 01:23:01.140
holodeck, the culture and history and stuff.

1878
01:23:01.199 --> 01:23:02.819
He wants to swap them around.

1879
01:23:02.880 --> 01:23:07.020
He wants to do the hunting thing in the holodeck, and in reality

1880
01:23:07.020 --> 01:23:13.020
he wants to, you know, work together, drink wine, watch telly.

1881
01:23:13.079 --> 01:23:16.859
You know, like, like, listen to 7 singing.

1882
01:23:16.920 --> 01:23:19.979
And that's pretty cool, I think.

1883
01:23:20.039 --> 01:23:21.479
I think that's pretty great.

1884
01:23:21.539 --> 01:23:23.579
That's a great point that he is like one voice.

1885
01:23:23.579 --> 01:23:28.319
And yeah, like, I think realistically, if this was, you know, this

1886
01:23:28.319 --> 01:23:31.500
was happening in reality, he'd probably be murdered and they just

1887
01:23:31.500 --> 01:23:33.479
go about, well, hunting and killing again.

1888
01:23:33.539 --> 01:23:35.699
That is, that's what's happening.

1889
01:23:35.760 --> 01:23:37.319
That is what happens.

1890
01:23:38.460 --> 01:23:42.840
See, look, we're enjoying wine.

1891
01:23:42.899 --> 01:23:44.399
I just love that.

1892
01:23:44.460 --> 01:23:47.579
Like it's a Nazi herogen drinking some wine.

1893
01:23:48.840 --> 01:23:50.640
He doesn't like it.

1894
01:23:50.699 --> 01:23:53.640
But I think I do think that the other one likes it.

1895
01:23:53.699 --> 01:23:55.619
Now here's the speech, right?

1896
01:23:55.979 --> 01:23:58.380
This guy is annoying.

1897
01:23:58.439 --> 01:24:02.159
He's like, um, the Hirogen has the shits with him.

1898
01:24:02.159 --> 01:24:06.600
And, um, but he's the one who gives...

1899
01:24:06.600 --> 01:24:09.659
Once there's this ceasefire.

1900
01:24:09.720 --> 01:24:13.500
He's the one who gives the idea that it should break, you know.

1901
01:24:13.560 --> 01:24:17.340
And it's partly because, remember, in part one.

1902
01:24:17.399 --> 01:24:23.279
Now he's he's accusing the commandant of rejecting the idea of

1903
01:24:23.279 --> 01:24:25.319
Nazi racial superiority.

1904
01:24:25.380 --> 01:24:29.640
And that's the speech in part one where he tells him you're not

1905
01:24:29.640 --> 01:24:31.979
really superior to anything, you don't deserve any of these

1906
01:24:31.979 --> 01:24:35.100
trophies, you know, you're terrible.

1907
01:24:35.159 --> 01:24:36.840
So he's rejecting Nazism.

1908
01:24:36.899 --> 01:24:37.920
Does he die?

1909
01:24:37.979 --> 01:24:38.640
can't remember.

1910
01:24:38.699 --> 01:24:40.260
Is he killed?

1911
01:24:40.319 --> 01:24:42.239
What the...

1912
01:24:42.239 --> 01:24:43.199
Oh, is he killed by Paris?

1913
01:24:43.500 --> 01:24:45.539
Oh, I can't remember.

1914
01:24:45.600 --> 01:24:47.880
They probably dare to slap Bologna.

1915
01:24:50.039 --> 01:24:55.800
At 7's getting less of a cut of the pie in this episode as well

1916
01:24:55.800 --> 01:24:56.159
isn't she?

1917
01:24:56.220 --> 01:24:57.180
She is, isn't she?

1918
01:24:57.239 --> 01:25:00.899
Although Jerry Ryan does say, despite being very, very sick, she

1919
01:25:00.899 --> 01:25:03.720
found this was her favourite story of season four.

1920
01:25:03.840 --> 01:25:05.760
Oh, I'm not surprised.

1921
01:25:05.819 --> 01:25:07.079
It's just really fun to do.

1922
01:25:07.140 --> 01:25:07.979
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1923
01:25:08.039 --> 01:25:08.340
Yeah.

1924
01:25:08.399 --> 01:25:08.880
Yeah.

1925
01:25:09.300 --> 01:25:11.279
It's done nothing at all.

1926
01:25:11.340 --> 01:25:12.420
Poor Tuvok.

1927
01:25:12.899 --> 01:25:14.279
No.

1928
01:25:16.500 --> 01:25:18.300
Bless her.

1929
01:25:18.779 --> 01:25:22.619
I still love that she pulls the ball guard as a threat.

1930
01:25:23.760 --> 01:25:25.739
They're going to get you.

1931
01:25:25.800 --> 01:25:28.140
How could you truncate this thing?

1932
01:25:28.199 --> 01:25:31.619
Because clearly, like, like, we set up quite a bit of this 2nd

1933
01:25:31.619 --> 01:25:33.359
episode is treading water now.

1934
01:25:33.420 --> 01:25:38.100
We're basically waiting to get to the pertinent scenes that lead

1935
01:25:38.100 --> 01:25:39.180
us to the conclusion.

1936
01:25:39.239 --> 01:25:40.500
Yeah.

1937
01:25:40.560 --> 01:25:44.039
Like, should this be an hour rather than that?

1938
01:25:44.100 --> 01:25:46.439
I think, well, we can't do that.

1939
01:25:46.500 --> 01:25:48.899
It needs, but they do it now.

1940
01:25:49.020 --> 01:25:50.640
Now, they would write.

1941
01:25:50.699 --> 01:25:52.140
Yeah, they absolutely routinely do.

1942
01:25:52.260 --> 01:25:54.779
They make it longer if they don't feel like there's enough time

1943
01:25:54.779 --> 01:25:57.539
and they'll probably make it shorter if they felt like, you know

1944
01:25:57.539 --> 01:26:01.680
yeah, I think there's a discovery episode that's less than 40

1945
01:26:01.680 --> 01:26:02.279
minutes long.

1946
01:26:02.340 --> 01:26:04.380
But they're quite often an hour.

1947
01:26:04.500 --> 01:26:10.020
But they're not going out in a time slot on broadcast TV anymore.

1948
01:26:10.079 --> 01:26:12.600
So they can be as long as they want.

1949
01:26:12.659 --> 01:26:14.159
A flagship show.

1950
01:26:14.220 --> 01:26:16.979
There were like lots of rules in place, apart for which, you

1951
01:26:16.979 --> 01:26:17.159
know?

1952
01:26:17.220 --> 01:26:20.699
Yeah, because it's UPN's flagship show that's what it launches

1953
01:26:20.699 --> 01:26:21.359
with, isn't it?

1954
01:26:21.420 --> 01:26:24.479
Isn't that mad that then that stifles the creativity?

1955
01:26:24.539 --> 01:26:26.279
Yeah, yeah.

1956
01:26:26.340 --> 01:26:29.819
Like, you know, I've got many complaints, as you know, about

1957
01:26:29.819 --> 01:26:35.579
discovery, but the fact that they give the finger up to, you know

1958
01:26:35.579 --> 01:26:39.060
the network saying, well, you've got to do this and you've got to

1959
01:26:39.060 --> 01:26:41.819
do that and they're saying, no, we're going to tell the story that

1960
01:26:41.819 --> 01:26:42.899
we want to tell, you know.

1961
01:26:42.960 --> 01:26:44.220
Yeah, yeah.

1962
01:26:44.279 --> 01:26:47.100
This speech is so great.

1963
01:26:47.159 --> 01:26:48.779
Here's the Nazi giving the speech.

1964
01:26:48.840 --> 01:26:55.199
And he now convinces this guy to break the ceasefire.

1965
01:26:55.260 --> 01:27:00.420
And it's the same rhetoric that the older one rejected last

1966
01:27:00.420 --> 01:27:03.000
episode in episode one.

1967
01:27:03.060 --> 01:27:09.359
And I think it's really actually, like, I think there's a little

1968
01:27:09.359 --> 01:27:12.960
bit of kind of whitewashing here because the Nazis are in a way

1969
01:27:12.960 --> 01:27:13.739
Christian.

1970
01:27:13.800 --> 01:27:17.100
I mean, they're also kind of pagan in all sorts of ways as well.

1971
01:27:17.159 --> 01:27:23.939
But the fact that he says the Jews are civilised. that

1972
01:27:23.939 --> 01:27:27.000
civilisation in that sense is sort of decadent.

1973
01:27:27.060 --> 01:27:30.840
I think it's sort of, I think it sounds weird to have that line in

1974
01:27:30.840 --> 01:27:32.220
an episode of Star Trek.

1975
01:27:32.279 --> 01:27:37.079
It seems a bit too much, but I do kind of like it in a way.

1976
01:27:37.140 --> 01:27:42.359
I think it's very strange that, um, void, void, the very act of it

1977
01:27:42.359 --> 01:27:45.960
being in the Delta Quadrant could have introduced Nazism to the

1978
01:27:45.960 --> 01:27:46.800
Delta Quadrant.

1979
01:27:46.859 --> 01:27:47.880
You know, it's like, right.

1980
01:27:47.939 --> 01:27:49.680
Well, here's this appalling idea.

1981
01:27:49.800 --> 01:27:51.000
Let's run with that.

1982
01:27:51.359 --> 01:27:54.659
Yeah, well, no, no, we have Nazis back now.

1983
01:27:54.720 --> 01:27:56.460
They're back in fashion apparently.

1984
01:27:56.520 --> 01:27:58.739
There's a lot of it about, apparently.

1985
01:27:58.800 --> 01:28:00.960
Oh, Tuvok in this jacket.

1986
01:28:01.020 --> 01:28:03.180
Yeah, I know, and should be fair.

1987
01:28:03.239 --> 01:28:05.039
Chicago does look great in that uniform as well.

1988
01:28:05.100 --> 01:28:06.600
Yeah, he really does.

1989
01:28:06.659 --> 01:28:08.279
He's poured into that uniform.

1990
01:28:08.340 --> 01:28:10.380
No, he's a handsome man.

1991
01:28:10.560 --> 01:28:15.300
It's even funny. like when that when that car drove into shot.

1992
01:28:15.420 --> 01:28:17.100
I thought, oh, there are cars.

1993
01:28:17.220 --> 01:28:18.300
You can have cars on TV.

1994
01:28:18.359 --> 01:28:23.939
I'd kind of forgotten that because, you know, it is Voyager is so

1995
01:28:23.939 --> 01:28:25.079
much standing around talking.

1996
01:28:25.199 --> 01:28:29.159
Do you remember in Star Trek Nemesis when they had that buggy on

1997
01:28:29.159 --> 01:28:29.760
the...

1998
01:28:30.840 --> 01:28:32.520
So bad.

1999
01:28:32.520 --> 01:28:33.720
Treadful.

2000
01:28:33.779 --> 01:28:36.479
Okay, so the Nazis are shooting at us again.

2001
01:28:36.600 --> 01:28:38.159
Back to the Klingons again.

2002
01:28:38.220 --> 01:28:39.479
Yeah.

2003
01:28:39.539 --> 01:28:42.840
Are they really fucked this up in such a great way as well?

2004
01:28:42.899 --> 01:28:45.359
Like they, you'll see.

2005
01:28:45.420 --> 01:28:49.619
Oh, see, like fucking Messenger speeches.

2006
01:28:49.680 --> 01:28:52.979
You know, oh, the crew is taking heavy casualties off screen

2007
01:28:52.979 --> 01:28:54.720
somewhere that you're not going to see.

2008
01:28:54.840 --> 01:28:58.500
It's weird, you know, because I felt like the 1st episode gathered

2009
01:28:58.500 --> 01:29:00.899
a bit of momentum and a bit of pace as it went along.

2010
01:29:00.960 --> 01:29:03.600
Climax, whereas this just keeps stuttering.

2011
01:29:03.899 --> 01:29:05.880
Yeah, I think so.

2012
01:29:06.000 --> 01:29:09.899
It's like they've frontloaded.

2013
01:29:10.020 --> 01:29:12.659
Well, how does it play?

2014
01:29:12.720 --> 01:29:15.659
I wonder, as one big hour and a half?

2015
01:29:15.720 --> 01:29:19.560
you know, special that's heavily trailed?

2016
01:29:19.619 --> 01:29:22.979
Is it just that it gets a bit boring towards the end?

2017
01:29:23.039 --> 01:29:24.840
Like there's a big climax in the middle.

2018
01:29:24.899 --> 01:29:28.619
They kind of faff about for a while and then there's a climax at

2019
01:29:28.619 --> 01:29:28.800
the end.

2020
01:29:28.859 --> 01:29:30.479
I mean, essentially, we've watched it all that.

2021
01:29:30.539 --> 01:29:33.960
Just 5 minutes rest in between, you know.

2022
01:29:34.020 --> 01:29:36.180
And we're still having these complaints.

2023
01:29:36.659 --> 01:29:38.640
Yeah, I think you're right.

2024
01:29:38.760 --> 01:29:42.119
I mean, this is just, this is cheap as hell where Neelix has to

2025
01:29:42.119 --> 01:29:45.539
persuade 2 people before we can have a whole heap of Klingons

2026
01:29:45.539 --> 01:29:47.039
boring into the thing.

2027
01:29:47.039 --> 01:29:51.420
But I mean, I like these 2 together are really good.

2028
01:29:51.539 --> 01:29:55.680
And I like the bit in the minute where he says, you are my prey

2029
01:29:55.739 --> 01:29:56.100
rum.

2030
01:29:56.159 --> 01:29:57.000
Yeah.

2031
01:29:57.000 --> 01:29:58.260
And then there's some fabric.

2032
01:29:58.319 --> 01:30:01.199
They always managed to shoot these scenes going through the

2033
01:30:01.199 --> 01:30:02.520
corridors and starships.

2034
01:30:02.819 --> 01:30:07.260
Well, actually, no, you said the opposite in the raven, didn't

2035
01:30:07.260 --> 01:30:07.380
you?

2036
01:30:07.439 --> 01:30:11.760
Oh, lots of boring kind of corridor scenes.

2037
01:30:11.819 --> 01:30:15.239
I mean, this is clearly a more competent director then, because

2038
01:30:15.239 --> 01:30:18.600
the camera is like kind of zooming around after Janeway.

2039
01:30:18.659 --> 01:30:22.380
Yeah, I mean, this is a shock, I think, isn't it?

2040
01:30:22.439 --> 01:30:24.060
Doesn't this doesn't.

2041
01:30:24.720 --> 01:30:27.060
I think the fact that we're like 10 minutes away from the end or

2042
01:30:27.060 --> 01:30:29.699
whatever...

2043
01:30:29.760 --> 01:30:32.819
Maybe if these were the most standing characters, if this was an

2044
01:30:32.819 --> 01:30:34.319
alien race, we've been around for a long time.

2045
01:30:34.380 --> 01:30:36.359
I don't give a shit about the herosion.

2046
01:30:36.420 --> 01:30:40.140
That's not what I mean. that's not what I mean What I mean is that

2047
01:30:40.140 --> 01:30:45.600
the way this should end is with the alpha herogen or whatever, our

2048
01:30:45.600 --> 01:30:48.539
hero herogen, getting his way.

2049
01:30:48.600 --> 01:30:49.319
Right.

2050
01:30:49.319 --> 01:30:50.460
And yeah.

2051
01:30:50.520 --> 01:30:51.779
And the fact that that doesn't work.

2052
01:30:51.840 --> 01:30:53.579
Like, it looks like it's working out.

2053
01:30:53.640 --> 01:30:55.800
There's a ceasefire.

2054
01:30:56.279 --> 01:30:58.680
Everyone's got their memory back.

2055
01:30:58.800 --> 01:31:02.579
She's working with the hierogen to ensure that they have access to

2056
01:31:02.579 --> 01:31:04.439
the technology in the way that he wants.

2057
01:31:04.500 --> 01:31:07.199
She's cooperating with him to give him what he wants.

2058
01:31:07.260 --> 01:31:12.600
And that's kind of how a Star Trek should end. isn't it?

2059
01:31:12.659 --> 01:31:14.880
You know, and then they go off.

2060
01:31:14.939 --> 01:31:16.560
I do want to talk about that.

2061
01:31:16.619 --> 01:31:17.699
Yeah.

2062
01:31:17.699 --> 01:31:19.680
We still have.

2063
01:31:19.800 --> 01:31:21.180
We still have 10 minutes to go.

2064
01:31:21.239 --> 01:31:23.699
And so we kill him off.

2065
01:31:23.760 --> 01:31:27.779
We have some more gunfight, which is okay, sort of.

2066
01:31:27.840 --> 01:31:31.319
Oh, yeah, you know, yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm watching this about

2067
01:31:31.319 --> 01:31:32.939
the music and the dialogue.

2068
01:31:33.000 --> 01:31:35.699
Actually, can we talk about the music for a 2nd please?

2069
01:31:35.760 --> 01:31:37.199
Because I think...

2070
01:31:37.260 --> 01:31:38.340
Well, this is David Bell, okay?

2071
01:31:38.399 --> 01:31:39.119
doing a bit, is he?

2072
01:31:39.180 --> 01:31:40.979
He did a music in the Pel movie line.

2073
01:31:41.039 --> 01:31:41.760
I loved it there too.

2074
01:31:41.819 --> 01:31:43.800
And he's one of the few.

2075
01:31:43.800 --> 01:31:45.840
No, maybe the only.

2076
01:31:45.840 --> 01:31:51.840
Composers that's actually trying to give a bit of pace to what's

2077
01:31:51.840 --> 01:31:52.920
going on. you know?

2078
01:31:52.979 --> 01:31:57.659
And yes, a note is not as sophisticated as current day music and

2079
01:31:57.659 --> 01:31:58.560
probably shouldn't be.

2080
01:31:58.619 --> 01:32:00.779
You know, we should learn some things in 20 years.

2081
01:32:01.020 --> 01:32:02.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

2082
01:32:02.939 --> 01:32:03.420
Oh, hang on.

2083
01:32:03.479 --> 01:32:04.979
I love these things of Jane, we're being hunted.

2084
01:32:09.060 --> 01:32:12.720
It's like she suddenly remembered she's been shot like she's

2085
01:32:12.720 --> 01:32:13.500
suddenly hobbling.

2086
01:32:13.560 --> 01:32:14.399
Yeah, yeah.

2087
01:32:14.460 --> 01:32:19.140
But that thing where they're all behind the sandbags and stuff a

2088
01:32:19.140 --> 01:32:24.180
little bit earlier, and she's going to 7 is modifying the grenade

2089
01:32:24.180 --> 01:32:27.420
so it emits a photonic burst, which will destroy holograms

2090
01:32:27.420 --> 01:32:28.260
nearby.

2091
01:32:28.319 --> 01:32:31.979
And then they fuck it up because they don't get to throw it.

2092
01:32:31.979 --> 01:32:36.840
And instead it just makes all their holographic ammunition

2093
01:32:36.840 --> 01:32:37.979
disappear or whatever.

2094
01:32:38.039 --> 01:32:40.260
That's why I found it.

2095
01:32:40.319 --> 01:32:44.340
God, every time you talk about technobabble, you know, I get a

2096
01:32:44.340 --> 01:32:44.640
little bit.

2097
01:32:44.699 --> 01:32:46.739
I get a little bit hard. you.

2098
01:32:48.659 --> 01:32:52.140
Poor Harry Kim, you've not been able to have any fun at all.

2099
01:32:52.500 --> 01:32:58.500
No, I think like he just gets new kind of facial blood in every

2100
01:32:58.500 --> 01:33:00.659
scene. which is slightly different.

2101
01:33:00.720 --> 01:33:04.500
That's Robert Beltran, like whinging that there's no sort of

2102
01:33:04.500 --> 01:33:06.359
nuance to the history in this and all that.

2103
01:33:06.420 --> 01:33:08.460
At least he got to dress up, you know?

2104
01:33:08.460 --> 01:33:10.319
But it's not history.

2105
01:33:10.380 --> 01:33:11.939
It's a holodeck program.

2106
01:33:12.000 --> 01:33:12.960
They're not going.

2107
01:33:13.020 --> 01:33:19.020
This is a TV show about the resistance, which is what you alluded

2108
01:33:19.020 --> 01:33:19.439
to before.

2109
01:33:19.500 --> 01:33:23.819
They're in a TV show. and they're TV show characters in a

2110
01:33:23.819 --> 01:33:24.720
different TV show.

2111
01:33:24.779 --> 01:33:26.460
That's exactly what that is.

2112
01:33:26.520 --> 01:33:27.300
Yeah, that's right.

2113
01:33:27.359 --> 01:33:32.159
She gets shot, falls over, and we...

2114
01:33:32.159 --> 01:33:34.199
And it blows up all our ammunition.

2115
01:33:34.560 --> 01:33:36.119
So good.

2116
01:33:36.899 --> 01:33:39.960
They're doing some subversions now, aren't they?

2117
01:33:40.020 --> 01:33:42.899
So we're keeping this thing going for 10 more minutes.

2118
01:33:42.960 --> 01:33:48.300
Well, but I think what ends up happening is more interesting than

2119
01:33:48.300 --> 01:33:51.899
where it looked like it was going and we'll talk about that.

2120
01:33:51.960 --> 01:33:54.420
Look, Voyage has been blast to buggery, isn't it?

2121
01:33:54.479 --> 01:33:56.159
And all the bulkheads are down and everything.

2122
01:33:56.399 --> 01:34:02.460
Yeah, I know next week it'll be like a fun palace again, but...

2123
01:34:02.460 --> 01:34:06.239
Do you think, so what do you think the thing is, the crew just, you

2124
01:34:06.239 --> 01:34:07.859
know, does a lot of polishing or something?

2125
01:34:07.920 --> 01:34:11.460
That shot of the man has no legs. missing. really terrible.

2126
01:34:12.060 --> 01:34:14.760
Yeah, I don't know what it's for either.

2127
01:34:14.819 --> 01:34:15.779
He's just a hologram.

2128
01:34:15.779 --> 01:34:19.380
He gives a shit. one more quirky image in, you know?

2129
01:34:19.439 --> 01:34:20.399
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2130
01:34:20.460 --> 01:34:20.880
That's okay.

2131
01:34:20.939 --> 01:34:22.319
A man with no legs.

2132
01:34:22.380 --> 01:34:23.399
I mean, that's the sort of thing.

2133
01:34:23.460 --> 01:34:24.779
You get in a war drama, isn't it?

2134
01:34:24.899 --> 01:34:25.140
You know?

2135
01:34:25.199 --> 01:34:26.340
Is his legs blown off?

2136
01:34:26.399 --> 01:34:28.859
Yeah. yeah, yeah, yeah.

2137
01:34:31.979 --> 01:34:35.399
We're going to have everyone lined up against the wall about to be

2138
01:34:35.399 --> 01:34:36.060
shot seen.

2139
01:34:36.479 --> 01:34:39.420
Oh dear, so embarrassing.

2140
01:34:39.479 --> 01:34:40.380
This is marvellous somewhere.

2141
01:34:40.439 --> 01:34:41.819
Janeway, Janeway plays the victim.

2142
01:34:41.880 --> 01:34:43.380
I do like this thing.

2143
01:34:43.439 --> 01:34:44.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

2144
01:34:44.939 --> 01:34:46.319
I think that's really properly good.

2145
01:34:46.380 --> 01:34:48.779
Gosh, that corridor is dirty.

2146
01:34:48.840 --> 01:34:52.260
Oh, well, that has gone...

2147
01:34:52.380 --> 01:34:53.340
I can't see any rocks.

2148
01:34:53.399 --> 01:34:55.979
So this designs have gone better.

2149
01:34:56.039 --> 01:34:56.939
No, no, there are rocks.

2150
01:34:57.000 --> 01:34:57.899
There are rocks on the floor.

2151
01:34:57.960 --> 01:34:58.920
There are as well.

2152
01:34:58.979 --> 01:35:00.720
They pack them in in those ships.

2153
01:35:00.720 --> 01:35:01.920
A lot of panels and stuff.

2154
01:35:01.979 --> 01:35:03.840
Oh, yeah, no, there's totally rocks.

2155
01:35:03.899 --> 01:35:04.500
Yep.

2156
01:35:07.560 --> 01:35:10.079
What's this chainway?

2157
01:35:10.140 --> 01:35:13.020
come on I can be of use to you.

2158
01:35:13.500 --> 01:35:16.319
I can help you prepare the ship.

2159
01:35:16.380 --> 01:35:19.079
I'll just be like, oh, you terrible fucking ham.

2160
01:35:19.140 --> 01:35:20.220
Boom, boom, boom.

2161
01:35:23.279 --> 01:35:25.500
No, she should have done with that guy.

2162
01:35:25.500 --> 01:35:27.659
She should have seen him. shoot him with a gun.

2163
01:35:27.720 --> 01:35:29.760
No, she should have smacks him round the egg with that gun.

2164
01:35:32.819 --> 01:35:34.140
That's it.

2165
01:35:34.739 --> 01:35:38.399
Standard assassination pose.

2166
01:35:38.760 --> 01:35:41.340
And here come the Klingons.

2167
01:35:41.399 --> 01:35:43.020
Oh, prepare to fire.

2168
01:35:43.140 --> 01:35:46.500
Yeah, like that, just shoot them and then go and look at the

2169
01:35:46.500 --> 01:35:47.880
Klingons, for God's sake.

2170
01:35:47.939 --> 01:35:51.119
Finally, we can afford execution's gone, 8 of them at least.

2171
01:35:51.180 --> 01:35:53.100
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

2172
01:35:53.159 --> 01:35:53.460
Yeah.

2173
01:35:53.520 --> 01:35:55.859
And so this is only budget for two.

2174
01:35:55.920 --> 01:35:58.260
That shot there as we look.

2175
01:35:58.800 --> 01:35:59.640
I love that.

2176
01:35:59.760 --> 01:36:05.220
Reality into fiction and see it all going into hell. one fiction

2177
01:36:05.220 --> 01:36:06.119
into another fiction.

2178
01:36:06.239 --> 01:36:09.659
It is...

2179
01:36:09.659 --> 01:36:11.340
I love it right now, too.

2180
01:36:12.180 --> 01:36:14.760
You don't stop saying this is fiction.

2181
01:36:14.819 --> 01:36:16.260
There it is.

2182
01:36:16.319 --> 01:36:17.699
There we go.

2183
01:36:18.060 --> 01:36:19.920
He wipes his head.

2184
01:36:19.979 --> 01:36:22.020
Yeah, yeah, right.

2185
01:36:22.079 --> 01:36:23.640
That's right, it's raining.

2186
01:36:23.699 --> 01:36:27.359
And Picardo doesn't want to get the top of his head wet.

2187
01:36:28.199 --> 01:36:30.180
Ah there we go.

2188
01:36:30.600 --> 01:36:32.340
Whoa.

2189
01:36:32.399 --> 01:36:35.340
Evil Nazi gets wanged by a Klingon.

2190
01:36:35.399 --> 01:36:35.880
That's pretty good.

2191
01:36:35.939 --> 01:36:36.600
I'm happy about that.

2192
01:36:36.659 --> 01:36:37.979
Do you know what, Nathan?

2193
01:36:38.039 --> 01:36:39.840
I'm going to say something to you now and I don't think you're

2194
01:36:39.840 --> 01:36:40.560
really going to like it.

2195
01:36:40.619 --> 01:36:41.880
What's that?

2196
01:36:41.939 --> 01:36:45.300
I think I prefer the Voyager cruise to the TNG one, you know.

2197
01:36:46.800 --> 01:36:51.000
I think the best of the Voyager crew are more fun.

2198
01:36:51.060 --> 01:36:52.680
Yeah, oh, I think so too.

2199
01:36:52.739 --> 01:36:55.560
When we were young, Hiro, Javenday.

2200
01:36:55.619 --> 01:36:58.680
There was just nothing to hang anything on because they were all

2201
01:36:58.680 --> 01:36:59.579
just a bit dull.

2202
01:36:59.640 --> 01:37:02.399
Whereas they're all been quite fun in this, aren't they?

2203
01:37:02.520 --> 01:37:06.239
I think, well, Well, yeah, except for the 2 Roberts.

2204
01:37:06.300 --> 01:37:08.340
Well, they're boring it. terrible.

2205
01:37:08.520 --> 01:37:13.920
We didn't mention young Hirogen just falling through that crash

2206
01:37:13.920 --> 01:37:16.859
stories and stories and then getting killed.

2207
01:37:16.920 --> 01:37:17.460
It was so good.

2208
01:37:17.520 --> 01:37:19.319
That was a great shot.

2209
01:37:19.380 --> 01:37:21.659
It was fake as hell like, but whatever.

2210
01:37:21.720 --> 01:37:24.720
It's like the big giant special effects shot.

2211
01:37:24.779 --> 01:37:27.239
Now, here we gloss over a whole heap of stuff.

2212
01:37:27.300 --> 01:37:29.760
We did some fighting for a while and then decided not to do it.

2213
01:37:29.819 --> 01:37:31.140
You know what?

2214
01:37:31.140 --> 01:37:32.220
We've cleaned up the ship.

2215
01:37:32.279 --> 01:37:33.899
Look at Janeway's haircut, right?

2216
01:37:33.960 --> 01:37:38.640
She looks just like Genevieve Bujol from the original pilot.

2217
01:37:38.699 --> 01:37:40.439
That airs exactly the same here.

2218
01:37:41.100 --> 01:37:44.100
My favourite hair is the long hair.

2219
01:37:44.159 --> 01:37:48.000
Now, here's the, we've wiped this device.

2220
01:37:48.060 --> 01:37:50.279
We've wiped Moriarty.

2221
01:37:50.340 --> 01:37:53.460
He's, uh, we've reformatted the drive.

2222
01:37:53.520 --> 01:37:54.779
Moriarty's gone.

2223
01:37:54.840 --> 01:37:56.220
Did you see how we're giving it to that one?

2224
01:37:56.880 --> 01:37:58.140
with the camera swooping down.

2225
01:37:58.199 --> 01:38:00.000
So they were all in shit.

2226
01:38:00.060 --> 01:38:01.500
Look at the camera looking up at them.

2227
01:38:01.560 --> 01:38:09.180
But so what this is, is her giving them the opportunity to change

2228
01:38:09.180 --> 01:38:12.840
but leaving it up to them and leaving it up in the air, what

2229
01:38:12.840 --> 01:38:13.260
happens?

2230
01:38:13.319 --> 01:38:18.300
So this is a more interesting ending because it's ambiguous.

2231
01:38:18.359 --> 01:38:23.399
We don't know whether they go away and fix their society or not.

2232
01:38:23.460 --> 01:38:25.979
And it looks like they're not going to.

2233
01:38:26.039 --> 01:38:28.739
And I love the fact that she says, oh, just hang it on the wall.

2234
01:38:28.800 --> 01:38:32.520
I think we're supposed to think that they are and they do.

2235
01:38:32.579 --> 01:38:34.079
That's the thing is they do.

2236
01:38:34.140 --> 01:38:34.619
They do.

2237
01:38:34.680 --> 01:38:37.920
But here it's just we're giving you the opportunity.

2238
01:38:37.979 --> 01:38:42.659
And I like it too, because she does it because she made a promise

2239
01:38:42.659 --> 01:38:44.460
to the Alpha Herogen.

2240
01:38:44.520 --> 01:38:50.100
And she kind of, she's sympathetic with his ideas.

2241
01:38:50.159 --> 01:38:55.500
She likes that idea that the herogen can build a civilisation.

2242
01:38:55.560 --> 01:38:57.479
But why aren't they just killing them all?

2243
01:38:57.539 --> 01:38:58.560
Like, why, why?

2244
01:38:58.619 --> 01:39:00.060
What do they have over them now?

2245
01:39:00.840 --> 01:39:03.539
Uh, yeah, there's some dialogue.

2246
01:39:03.600 --> 01:39:06.840
I mean, like they don't quite get there.

2247
01:39:06.960 --> 01:39:09.180
There's some connective tissue that's papered over.

2248
01:39:09.239 --> 01:39:10.739
Do you know what I mean?

2249
01:39:10.800 --> 01:39:12.659
Like with the captain's log at the end.

2250
01:39:12.720 --> 01:39:14.579
It's just like, ah, we stopped fighting.

2251
01:39:14.640 --> 01:39:16.859
There's a ceasefire for some reason, but we don't know why.

2252
01:39:16.920 --> 01:39:19.500
But I have like a big problem with this, right?

2253
01:39:19.560 --> 01:39:24.659
Because they introduce like the Hirogen as the new Big Bad of the

2254
01:39:24.659 --> 01:39:25.739
Delta Quadrant, right?

2255
01:39:25.800 --> 01:39:26.279
Yeah.

2256
01:39:26.340 --> 01:39:28.859
And then they end it with this very lame ending where she gives

2257
01:39:28.859 --> 01:39:30.539
them a bit of technology and off they trot.

2258
01:39:30.600 --> 01:39:34.500
And they introduce, I don't know, Species 8472 as the new Big Bad

2259
01:39:34.500 --> 01:39:37.140
of the of the Delta Quadrant, sorry.

2260
01:39:37.199 --> 01:39:41.520
And then they do that episode on Fly 10,000 light years away from

2261
01:39:41.520 --> 01:39:41.699
them.

2262
01:39:41.760 --> 01:39:42.840
That's all an episode.

2263
01:39:42.840 --> 01:39:45.000
That's the recording episode where it's the fake Starfleet

2264
01:39:45.000 --> 01:39:45.600
headquarters.

2265
01:39:45.600 --> 01:39:48.119
And then they all shake hands at the end and go, oh, well, we'll

2266
01:39:48.119 --> 01:39:48.600
just be friends.

2267
01:39:49.560 --> 01:39:54.300
I just don't buy it, and I know this is Star Trek, and I get the

2268
01:39:54.300 --> 01:40:00.359
idea, and I think this is why I don't buy into a lot of Kurtzman

2269
01:40:00.359 --> 01:40:03.960
Trek, because Kurtzman Trek is always going for the, you know

2270
01:40:03.960 --> 01:40:07.199
we're better than this, and, and, you know, we're not going to

2271
01:40:07.199 --> 01:40:08.460
blow up the Clennon whole world.

2272
01:40:08.520 --> 01:40:09.899
We're going to be better people than this.

2273
01:40:09.960 --> 01:40:10.739
Yeah.

2274
01:40:10.739 --> 01:40:15.960
I think the problem is not Kursman Treg or Voyager.

2275
01:40:16.020 --> 01:40:20.100
I think the problem is me because I think I may appear to be this

2276
01:40:20.100 --> 01:40:21.539
wonderful optimist.

2277
01:40:21.600 --> 01:40:25.020
Actually, I think deep down I'm a terrible bloody cynic.

2278
01:40:25.079 --> 01:40:29.279
Okay, so the DS9 approach to Star Trek of you have to get your

2279
01:40:29.279 --> 01:40:33.119
hands dirty and a lot of people are going to get killed and at the

2280
01:40:33.119 --> 01:40:35.460
ending, you know, we're all very fucking miserable at the end of

2281
01:40:35.460 --> 01:40:36.119
every episode.

2282
01:40:36.180 --> 01:40:37.920
Well, that's just life, you know?

2283
01:40:37.979 --> 01:40:42.720
And I think that's, and I think like, in the back of my head, I'm

2284
01:40:42.720 --> 01:40:44.640
just like, that's reality, you know?

2285
01:40:44.880 --> 01:40:50.159
And I know, I know the whole idea of Star Trek is to portray

2286
01:40:50.159 --> 01:40:51.899
something better.

2287
01:40:52.020 --> 01:40:54.899
I just think something in my brain fights that.

2288
01:40:54.960 --> 01:40:59.819
And so every time they do it, I just go, yeah, I don't buy it.

2289
01:40:59.880 --> 01:41:00.539
I'm sorry.

2290
01:41:00.840 --> 01:41:03.899
I understand the aspiration.

2291
01:41:03.960 --> 01:41:05.819
I just don't buy it. you know?

2292
01:41:05.880 --> 01:41:10.500
See, for me, that's what's important about Star Trek, and it was

2293
01:41:10.500 --> 01:41:13.319
only partially there in Star Trek, the original series.

2294
01:41:13.380 --> 01:41:17.399
And then Next Generation kind of makes it more explicit because

2295
01:41:17.399 --> 01:41:21.180
it's kind of based a bit on our memories of the original series.

2296
01:41:21.239 --> 01:41:25.619
And then Kurtzmantrek comes along and I think despite what people

2297
01:41:25.619 --> 01:41:30.899
who aren't particularly good critics say, it is.

2298
01:41:31.140 --> 01:41:36.840
It is really, really firmly grounded in those ideals, that there

2299
01:41:36.840 --> 01:41:42.000
is a real proper concern for the Federation.

2300
01:41:42.060 --> 01:41:44.640
The discovery episodes that we've covered.

2301
01:41:44.699 --> 01:41:46.319
You've gone in, you've broken it down.

2302
01:41:46.500 --> 01:41:50.579
I don't think anyone listening to, what was that, the finale we

2303
01:41:50.579 --> 01:41:51.000
watched called?

2304
01:41:51.060 --> 01:41:54.239
Uh, that hope is you part two.

2305
01:41:54.300 --> 01:41:59.399
I mean, anyone could deny that the Star Trek ideal is not laced

2306
01:41:59.399 --> 01:42:00.239
throughout that episode.

2307
01:42:00.300 --> 01:42:04.199
But I remember you saying, like, you know, wouldn't it be awful if

2308
01:42:04.199 --> 01:42:07.260
it was one of the major powers that had created the burn?

2309
01:42:07.380 --> 01:42:09.779
And I'm like, no, that'd be fucking amazing.

2310
01:42:09.840 --> 01:42:14.039
And also probably more realistic, instead of some child crying out

2311
01:42:14.039 --> 01:42:17.399
to his mother, they go... mother, you know.

2312
01:42:17.460 --> 01:42:21.479
And so, yeah, I don't really think the problem is this ending.

2313
01:42:21.539 --> 01:42:23.819
I think the problem is my reaction to it.

2314
01:42:24.119 --> 01:42:27.899
But I think that the ending is ambiguous.

2315
01:42:27.960 --> 01:42:31.800
Like, I don't think it's at all clear that they will take that

2316
01:42:31.800 --> 01:42:32.220
route.

2317
01:42:32.279 --> 01:42:38.159
And we hope they will because it's Star Trek, but it's like I'm

2318
01:42:38.159 --> 01:42:41.880
now giving you the choice, but we're not friends.

2319
01:42:41.939 --> 01:42:44.279
I can't influence you or enforce it.

2320
01:42:44.340 --> 01:42:47.760
And, you know, Janeway does have that crack. you know, maybe it

2321
01:42:47.760 --> 01:42:50.100
can just be a trophy and you can hang it up on the wall in the net

2322
01:42:50.100 --> 01:42:51.779
with the skulls and shit.

2323
01:42:51.899 --> 01:42:53.579
Um, you know.

2324
01:42:53.640 --> 01:42:56.279
And so I do like that.

2325
01:42:56.340 --> 01:42:59.579
But I like that there is something aspirational in the episode

2326
01:42:59.579 --> 01:43:05.159
that the hirogen have come on board and they've learned from the

2327
01:43:05.159 --> 01:43:06.359
TV shows.

2328
01:43:06.420 --> 01:43:09.779
I keep saying it from the TV shows that Voyager watches, that

2329
01:43:09.779 --> 01:43:13.020
there is the possibility of a better life than the kind of

2330
01:43:13.020 --> 01:43:17.640
miserable, solitary existence with skulls hanging over your head.

2331
01:43:17.760 --> 01:43:19.979
Excuse me, I've just established that I am that person, right?

2332
01:43:24.840 --> 01:43:30.539
All right, it's time for us to choose our next Star Trek episode

2333
01:43:30.539 --> 01:43:33.479
and it's your turn, isn't it, Joe?

2334
01:43:33.539 --> 01:43:34.380
It is, it is.

2335
01:43:34.439 --> 01:43:37.380
And it's basically a follow-up to what I've just said at the end

2336
01:43:37.380 --> 01:43:38.039
of that episode.

2337
01:43:38.100 --> 01:43:45.300
I am selecting only Kurtzman Trek this time because I'm hoping to

2338
01:43:45.300 --> 01:43:47.699
find the one episode that's deeply cynical.

2339
01:43:47.760 --> 01:43:50.939
I doubt I will, but you know, I live in hope.

2340
01:43:51.479 --> 01:43:54.600
Okay, no, actually, I think someone likes season one episodes.

2341
01:43:54.720 --> 01:43:56.220
Yeah, I think so too.

2342
01:43:56.279 --> 01:43:57.539
I think, yeah.

2343
01:43:57.600 --> 01:44:01.439
And you know, like given there are, what, 4 seasons of discovery

2344
01:44:01.439 --> 01:44:04.439
now, there's a fair chance we'll get discovery when I press this.

2345
01:44:04.500 --> 01:44:05.039
Yeah, yeah.

2346
01:44:05.100 --> 01:44:05.819
Okay, you ready?

2347
01:44:05.880 --> 01:44:06.899
I'm ready.

2348
01:44:06.960 --> 01:44:07.800
Okay.

2349
01:44:07.859 --> 01:44:09.539
I won't actually know what any of these are.

2350
01:44:09.600 --> 01:44:13.920
Your Star Trek Discovery episode is season two, episode three

2351
01:44:13.920 --> 01:44:15.180
point of light.

2352
01:44:15.359 --> 01:44:18.720
Oh, so this is like really early.

2353
01:44:19.319 --> 01:44:22.260
Uh, this is early season two.

2354
01:44:22.439 --> 01:44:26.760
And I can't really remember where we are, but we're clearly still

2355
01:44:26.760 --> 01:44:30.960
setting things up for the big season 2 plot.

2356
01:44:31.020 --> 01:44:34.260
And, you know, there's a big sort of when is Spock going to turn

2357
01:44:34.260 --> 01:44:35.340
up, isn't there?

2358
01:44:35.399 --> 01:44:38.640
There's Pike is on board the ship by now.

2359
01:44:38.699 --> 01:44:41.340
So I think it might be interesting.

2360
01:44:41.399 --> 01:44:49.979
I, for me, series 2 of Discovery is the least successful one.

2361
01:44:50.039 --> 01:44:52.500
And I do think that it gets a little bit overwrought.

2362
01:44:52.560 --> 01:44:55.739
And it also kind of serves a little bit as an apology tour for

2363
01:44:55.739 --> 01:44:58.380
series one. said that before.

2364
01:44:58.439 --> 01:44:59.100
Yeah.

2365
01:44:59.100 --> 01:45:00.840
I love the series one.

2366
01:45:00.899 --> 01:45:02.159
I've already pressed the bum again.

2367
01:45:02.220 --> 01:45:03.779
I'm so sorry.

2368
01:45:03.840 --> 01:45:04.859
And do you know what?

2369
01:45:04.920 --> 01:45:08.399
I don't know what this is, but I'm choosing it on the title

2370
01:45:08.399 --> 01:45:09.359
alone.

2371
01:45:09.479 --> 01:45:12.180
Because it's got a fucking nerve.

2372
01:45:12.239 --> 01:45:13.020
I'll tell you.

2373
01:45:13.079 --> 01:45:14.460
What is it?

2374
01:45:14.579 --> 01:45:19.859
It's your random Star Trek prodigy episode is...

2375
01:45:19.859 --> 01:45:23.460
Season one, episode eight, time amok.

2376
01:45:25.979 --> 01:45:27.779
What, no.

2377
01:45:27.779 --> 01:45:30.539
They constantly riff on the...

2378
01:45:30.539 --> 01:45:33.840
They constantly riff on other episode titles.

2379
01:45:33.899 --> 01:45:35.579
They've got a 1st contact as well.

2380
01:45:35.640 --> 01:45:41.939
So, Lower Deck starts with an episode called Second Contact and N

2381
01:45:41.939 --> 01:45:45.300
Series 2 with an episode called First, First Contact.

2382
01:45:47.279 --> 01:45:52.680
And then Prodigy has an episode called First Con hyphen Tact.

2383
01:45:52.739 --> 01:45:57.300
And like they're just being terribly silly.

2384
01:45:57.300 --> 01:45:58.319
Not to mention.

2385
01:45:58.619 --> 01:45:59.939
We only touched prodigy once.

2386
01:46:00.000 --> 01:46:02.520
We both... let's do it.

2387
01:46:02.579 --> 01:46:03.600
Yeah, absolutely.

2388
01:46:03.659 --> 01:46:06.899
Let's do it Like I'm wondering if it needs any context or if

2389
01:46:06.899 --> 01:46:09.000
there's one that can just be watched on its own, but let's just do

2390
01:46:09.000 --> 01:46:10.979
this one on its own. let's give it a go.

2391
01:46:11.039 --> 01:46:11.399
Absolutely.

2392
01:46:11.460 --> 01:46:14.460
Okay, so season one, episode eight.

2393
01:46:14.520 --> 01:46:15.840
Time amok.

2394
01:46:21.899 --> 01:46:26.399
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford

2395
01:46:26.399 --> 01:46:27.659
and Nathan Bottomley.

2396
01:46:27.720 --> 01:46:31.439
You can find us online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where

2397
01:46:31.439 --> 01:46:34.319
you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.

2398
01:46:34.380 --> 01:46:38.220
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was

2399
01:46:38.220 --> 01:46:39.960
composed by Cameron Lamb.

2400
01:46:40.020 --> 01:46:44.699
This episode was recorded on the 19th of March 2022 and released

2401
01:46:44.699 --> 01:46:46.260
on the 25th of March.

2402
01:46:46.319 --> 01:46:51.000
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Prodigy Time Amark.