Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we're about to watch the 1st Voyager episode we've done for a
little while, I think, and that is series 4's, The Raven, and I
gather that you have things that you want to tell us about it.
Well, yeah, I felt as if I had been letting the side down a little
bit.
Initially I was coming into this podcast and I said, you know
what?
going to be the trivia man and I'm going to bring lots of
fascinating information.
And I've been so excited about the last couple of episodes.
We've just gone straight in However, this is a turning point of
Voyager in a very big way.
Not this particular episode, what is it, 6 in to season four, are
we?
Yeah.
But obviously it's Kez is out, 7 of 9's in, you know, so we're a
woman for woman, thank goodness.
It would be terrible if they got rid of Kes and brought in a
bloke.
Yeah, yeah.
That was where this was going to go initially.
So Brandon Bragger was watching Unity from series 3, which has a
ball characters that are have been broken free of the collective
and regaining their humanity.
They're trying to break free from the collective.
And he's like, oh, my word, what if we had a Borg character on
Voyager?
And then immediately doubted himself.
So he phones up Joe Manosky.
I mean, I would not phone up Joe Manosky because he wrote, you
know, masks and episodes like this, you know?
Oh, no, he wrote The Thor as well, I think.
He's great.
All the ones that are out there.
They're the ones who wrote.
And Germanoski goes, 0 my word, that is an amazing idea.
Ring up Rick Berman now.
So, um, Brandon Bragg, it's really late in the night, he said, and
he rung up Rick Berman, who's like, this is a terrific idea.
However, let's not make him a bloke.
Let's make him a borg babe.
Oh dear.
Yeah, those were his exact words.
And so this whole kind of cynicism around the idea of bringing in
a female ball character, I think there may be perhaps some of it's
warranted.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, I mean, look where this ended up, you know.
The incredible thing is that she comes in, she's basically like
very nearly a naked woman on the bridge, you know, like the skin
tight outfit, she's wearing a slightly more modest one in this
episode, the brown one, but the silver one that she starts off
with, and just her breasts, like she's young.
She's conventionally very, not just attractive, but very sexy in a
sort of particular way.
That grace or silver katsu is so terrible.
Apparently she couldn't even sit down in that.
It was so scary. get to stand up for a 14 hour day.
Yeah, yeah.
But what ends up happening is that she is smart and forceful, you
know, she's clever.
She's self possessed.
And so she ends up being a really, really strong female
character.
What's super interesting is they not only brought in an incredible
actress to do it.
And this could have gone horribly wrong, you know?
Well, imagine if it was the other way around.
It was Jennifer Leanne coming in.
Who, you know, let's be honest, she's okay, but she's not, she's
going to blow your socks off, is she?
They brought in Jerry Ryan, who is magnificently good.
But not only that, they married that with genuine character
development.
But what feels like the 1st time in, uh, like, we'll go way back
to TNG all the way through into, you know, 3 seasons of Voyager
and they've actually decided, no, we're going to take this
character.
We're going to develop them.
You know, we're going to make them super interested and go on a
journey with them.
And it really, really worked.
It worked for everybody except for one person.
Yeah, Kate.
Not happy.
And it's kind of, it's kind of like the one wrinkle in Voyages
otherwise.
You know, when they all get together for the, I'll talk about
these fabulous, like, you know, anniversary get-togethers and
stuff and they're, oh, we all loved each other.
Except for Kate Mulgrew and Jerry Ryan in series 4 or 5 of
Voyager.
And the problem is, Kate Mulgrew was supposed to be this very
strong female lead.
And that probably should have been enough.
You know, and and what she thought was, they need to bring in a
younger, sexier woman in order to sell this show and, you know
raise the ratings.
So she's feeling like she's not good enough.
And she's staring down scenes with her, not her replacement, but
her, maybe her better in the eyes of the producers.
And I have a quote here for you if you will indulge me.
Because I think this is super interesting.
The reason why I want to say this is because I think in season 4
and 5 of Voyager, I think it goes away in 6 and 7 when I actually
started getting on and Jerry Ryan's dating Brenner Bragger and
Kate Mulgrew's playing nice all of a sudden.
Um, I think that the scenes between Janeway and 7 in series 4 and
5 of Voyager are the best Voyager ever was.
And it's because there's tension behind the scenes that they're so
electrifying, but they're so good.
Um, anyway.
So the quote is this.
Sorry, I can't stop talking, can I?
So Kate Roger says this.
Let me be very straight about something.
This is on me, not Jerry.
She came in and did what she was asked to do.
No question about that, and she did it very well.
It's on me because I'd hoped against hope that Janeway would be
sufficient, that she didn't have to bring, sorry, that they didn't
have to bring in a beautiful sexy girl, that somehow the power of
my command, the vicissitudes of my talent would be sufficient onto
the date.
I mean, it's okay, Bobby, with this, isn't it?
Because that would really change television, wouldn't it?
That's what dug me the hardest, that to pick up the numbers, they
did that.
That was my interpretation of it and that hurt me.
I found it sort of insulting, and of course, she embodied the
part.
This beautiful girl, but we certainly were utterly professional.
I've been nothing sure of completely professional and she did her
job very well.
It was a good idea that she was half Borg, but it was on me.
I'm sorry, it has to be a part of this legacy, and I probably
should have comported myself better.
I should have been more philosophical about it, but in the moment
it was difficult.
Which is an extraordinary, she's basically saying she didn't
behave well.
Yeah, but she was right though, because if you think about it
female led TV shows or like genre shows like this.
I mean, this is the 1st Star Trek with a female lead.
We've got 2 running at the moment, but it was a big deal and, you
know, like there is a kind of...
There's a kind of feminist thing to it.
She's a scientist, she's a strong leader.
She's a really, really good commander.
It's a big step forward for, you know, the representation of women
in genre, television, and then they decide midway through the run
that to beef up the ratings, they're going to bring in a, you know
like a beautiful, sexy young woman and dresser in skin tight
clothing.
And it is...
I mean, you can almost imagine seeing Mulgrew seeing her that 1st
time in that and begin, oh, this is exactly what I feared.
Yeah, it's embarrassingly cynical.
And the thing is, though, that because Jerry Ryan is so incredibly
good and because they have to deal with a changeover, like it's
not just like, you know, recasting Darren Stevens or Becky Connor
or something like that, they've got a new character in, there are
new stories to tell.
There's new relationships among the characters, and suddenly it
really just gives them a shot in the arm, I think.
Well, and I think what Mulru couldn't have anticipated. is how
electrified she would be against Jerry Ryan.
And I think probably if she was asked now, those are her best
moments in the show, you know, like the tension between, you don't
have a lot of tension on Voyager. everyone's kind of playing nice
aren't they?
And I don't think there's much in this episode, to be fair.
But boy, do they have some cracking rows throughout the series?
There's that one episode where 7 of 9 is like, well, you know, fuck
the prime directive.
And Jane was like, you know, how dare you?
This is like, you can get off the ship at the next stop if that's
how you feel, you know.
And it's like, this is really exciting.
This is new.
This is fresh.
Yeah, I love it.
I, I, I, I think, Series 4 and 5 of Voyager, Stand Alone, as
fantastic Burman era trek.
And the hit rate of the episodes is really, really strong.
And this is particularly a classic.
I do think there's quite a lot of good in this.
Yeah, I think it's pretty highly regarded.
Oh, what, the raven?
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, I don't really read many reviews. but yeah.
But it's an exciting time for the show.
So I think that's an interesting place for us to do our next
commentary.
Shall we get going then?
Hey, I'm ready.
All right, so I will count us in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
So I'm trying to decide whether this is Florence or Milan, and I'm
going to go for Florence.
I like to think that we have a big photo of Florence out the
window.
There's quite a nice set.
A nice heel.
Yeah, yeah, I think it's a nice idea.
I'm not sure the episode with Leonardo da Vinci in it, you know
the one where Janeway's flying the plane off. concerning flights.
It's pretty terrible episode.
It's John Reese Davies, though, isn't it?
It's Gimli from Lord of the Rings is Leonardo.
I don't know why there's aliens invading the holodeck or
something.
It's very, very strange.
But as a quirkier. aesthetic and something different to look at
it's very nice.
Well, in fact, Voyager has always done this and I was thinking
about it.
They always have an additional set that is the holodeck and right
back in series one, they have that sort of a bar in a French
village, which they have as their bar.
That was rarely bettered.
I don't know why they changed that.
I really love the series 5 chaotic program, the black and white
one.
But all the others.
Lord Burley's Manor.
Oh, my.
That terrible.
Do you remember that tropical resort they go to?
And then, of course, Fairhaven in Syria, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's hit or miss.
I think we've always your holiday programs.
But it is kind of a good idea because it does give us a break from
the gray corridors and it gives us the sense that the crew are
experiencing some kind of pop culture together because they're by
themselves.
And so they're all watching, you know, it's like watching Tiger
King in isolation, you know, they're all experiencing Fairhaven at
the same time.
Oh, terrible.
We nearly did that episode.
Remember, you pulled Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Spirit folk out of the bag.
Honestly.
I do like this, though, that Janeway is artistic, you know, as
well.
And then she likes to come somewhere a bit more contemplative away
from the boring old corridors of Voyager.
And so this conversation is about sort of imagination and
creativity as a human thing that she can't see a good reason for.
And his classic Star Trek, isn't it?
You know, tell us of this human thing you call love.
Like it's a bit cheesy.
No, but, like, we watched all good things last time.
Do you remember, I said, you know, there was that bollocks
conversation between Picard and Q at the end where, you know, Q's
going, oh, it's all part of the human condition and we're all, you
know, nodding our heads along with him going, oh, this is all very
important.
I think there's more in this one conversation here than there ever
was in all good things, you know?
they're talking about something of substance.
And something that plays into the episode.
My favourite moment, which I didn't comment on is 7's absolutely
listless attempts at kind of making a nose.
She's not one finger.
Because she's got that weird glove thing on with a sort of Borg
implant hand.
So she's got the rubber thing on and she's sort of just poking at
it.
I want to see Nathan, the size of this set.
That's an entire sound stage, I think.
It is pretty big.
In fact, oh, okay.
I just want to talk about this, Imagery on the Borg ship, because
we've seen a lot of Borg ships at this point, right?
I actually think these sequences are they're done in slow motion.
Um, and I do, I just think the image, they are there, look, of the
the raven in slow motion. pursuing her through the Borg ship.
And it's lit really well as well.
Yeah, that shot there.
That raven shot, which is I'm taking a screen cap from it for the
website.
It's really good I think there are problems with how this is
directed and it's LaVar Burton, isn't it?
It is love him.
Well, we do, but unfortunately, he is not the most dynamic of Star
Trek directors.
We need to be honest about this.
Weirdly enough, there's a few episodes, you know, action oriented
episodes, like, to the deaf.
Do you remember that one where the Defiant has to go off with the
Gemadar to find the Iconian Gateway?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's a massive fight at the end.
He can do, he can make Star Trek very exciting.
But very often it's a bit ploddy.
He's pretty good with character stuff.
He's good with getting decent performances out of people.
As he does here?
Who does that?
Yeah, yeah.
I think he does that here.
Ah, look.
Boy, you're going for a nebula.
Yeah, you love to see it.
I'm sorry.
You can keep your visually dynamic.
There's been strict sequences.
I'll watch spaceships going through nebulas.
I'm perfectly happy.
You can always watch lower decks for that sort of tidal sequence, I
guess.
That's hilarious.
I love that gi sequence.
The apologetic looking alien and fucking away his arse.
That's really funny.
So funny.
Very good.
Have you seen this in 4K?
I think I might mention this before.
I think I've watched I think I've watched an upscaled 4K's.
Yeah, it's incredible.
It looks terrific.
Um And I have to say, this is one of the title musics that I will
listen through every single time.
I really like the voyage music.
Yeah, I think like...
It's not very dynamic though, is it?
It is a little bit, it's not very complicated.
Um, in a way where the, these days when you've got Michael
Jacquino or Jeff Russo doing the music, it's a lot more
interesting, I think.
Pretty, though.
I don't mind pretty and complicated. you know?
Yeah.
Although the music generally here is again pretty...
I'm not having this conversation with you again.
I or lacklass.
Okay.
Skip forward 20 years and bring all those musicians back.
Come on.
So this actually is a relationship that ends up being really
strong as well is the doctor.
But I want to comment on her performance.
I think it's really weird.
Like watching this again, this is not what she lands on as her 7
of 9 performance.
You know what it is, isn't it?
I think she goes to the same coach as Margaret Thatcher.
They're like, no, bring your voice down love.
They're more masculine.
You're being far too feminine.
Yeah, she's really much girlier and she seems much more
tentative.
You know, 7 is incredibly direct and very blunt and she has a
deeper voice than she has here.
And even now, now she's in Picard as a regular, and she's dropped
all the kind of, you know, space Star Trek alien talk.
She still sounds like she ends up sounding in this. is very
different.
I'm going to say something to you now and you're not going to lie
here.
What's that?
I think she's the weakest regular in Picard.
Wow, that's interesting.
And I don't think there's a great deal to her, and I certainly I
watched series 2, episode one of Picard this week, and she kind of
irritated me a bit.
Everybody else, I really enjoy being around, but she was just kind
of churning out the same old cliches that she was here.
She's hardly in.
She doesn't get that much to do in that episode, I think.
But yeah, the regulars are strong. before that show.
It's, you're right.
It's not what she settles on.
It's quite thoughtful, and it's appealing as well.
She's a bit childlike.
I think, though, that the performance that she lands on, we'll
talk about the, we'll talk about the, um, her performance in that
sort of final scene in the, in the raven itself.
There's a glorious sequence in a minute coming up and uh, 0 man, I
can't believe I'm going to say this to you because you're just
going to say, I told you so, where it's terrific.
Neelix is amazing and he's teaching her how to eat and swallow.
And it's such a simple scene.
And the way the 2 of them play it, and she's so childlike.
It is basically like a baby learning how to eat.
And I think that that's it.
She's playing it as unsure of herself because she, you know, she's
in a new world, new environment.
Oh my god.
Here we go.
These aliens are so shit.
They so bad.
Holy crap.
They look like people have shoved wire coat hangers over the red.
So they, there's no sort of unifying idea of what they look like.
It is just sort of bung a heap of Star Trek latex shit on their
faces.
I think they look a bit like the Hirogen, but we've kind of...
But the Hirogen have a more definite look and they're about
something.
Look at their outfit.
The fuck are these guys?
Those clothes are terrible.
Do you remember, do you remember Kate Mulgrew, Sam?
They kept her in these bloody stupid aliens in front.
They were testing us, all right?
They were testing our acting ability.
Well this is definitely it.
Don't you fight like, don't you quite like the fact that it's like
this bureaucratic nightmare where they're trying to cut time off
of, and yet they're making them go all around the house?
I did think it was faintly amusing as a people.
But they needed to lean into it.
Like they needed either to make them properly funny or to make
them properly threatening.
What you mean, not funny?
translate as malfunctioning.
But they're bad.
You know, like they're not they're not comedy aliens.
They're just sort of bad, stupid, intransigent aliens.
And like, it looks like they're kind of like, oh, now there's this
scene.
We'll get back to the Beaumart.
There's plenty of time to slag off at them. so shit.
But this is a lovely scene.
And I'm right about Ethan Phillips.
He is good and he's very good in this scene.
Oh, he can be good.
He was often written very shit.
Yeah, but the performance is extremely well here.
And I really love, there's a tiny moment in a 2nd where she very
casually says, well, we assimilated a load of Talaxians and he
very gently looks at her and was like, oh, I didn't know that.
And he doesn't react and he knows he's got to kind of got to make
her comfortable and how they feel.
Yeah, he's really shaken though.
He's visibly shaken, I think.
It's good.
But I like it.
See, see, this is the Neelix that I like who is a little bit
thoughtful.
You know, like the sitcom Neelix that's thrown spaghetti at Tom
Paris or is jealous over Kez.
Yeah, no, that's awful. nonsense.
No, that's dreadful.
Yeah.
Or, you know, throwing a function every 2 minutes, like, you know
Mr. Vulcan, you're gonna, you're gonna enjoy this Vulcan ceremony
whether you like it or not.
You know, oh, that's a bit tedious.
But when he gets like one-on-one scenes and he gets good scenes
with like Belana Torres as well that I can remember, there's some
nice scenes he has with Naomi Wildman in series 67.
It's when he behaves like a person.
That's what it is.
What about this, right?
The Chandre Cobb or whatever.
He says, I'll steam it because that'll be good for your
digestion.
I won't stir fry it.
What's this?
It's a what...
What's that?
love that.
Do you remember Janeway's reaction when he took over the...
I mean, that was her personal dining room, wasn't it?
And that was her space to eat.
That entire room.
And Phoenix was like, well, it's a bit selfish, doesn't it?
came over to the crew.
Yeah.
Yeah, but this this is a very gentle scene.
Yeah, very warmly played.
I really like it.
Very slow, though.
It's so...
Never slowed.
I don't mind they're slow.
But I mean, I mean, you know, like I'm happy to have quiet
character scenes, but this is like...
Did you not watch that scene between Patrick Stewart and Ola Brady
this week when they nearly kissed?
It went on forever.
So good.
I was like, get up with it.
Get into bed.
Giving me like business, like making him cook and serve food and
stuff.
Like normally on Star Trek, they're either sort of just standing
around talking or maybe listlessly firing guns at one another, but
you know, like he has to serve the food and put forks down.
And it actually absolutely kills the price of the scene because
there's so much business. like where, where, where it gets the
domestic thing across, but quartz bar is usually like a hub of, of
like social activity and it's got fabulous strengths.
Remember that ones where he's got the war core breach?
If you see him, it all bubbles over.
It's amazing.
I think I really like this.
And you know what?
They do this for an entire episode in Series 6 when Tuvok gets
reverted back to a chart.
I can't remember exactly what happened.
And Neenix has to teach him how to be an adult again.
And it's this, this scene for 40 minutes.
Choo choo.
It is.
It's, I think it's really good.
I think he is great.
Do you know what?
I'm going to make a concession with you.
I think perhaps that 90s trek could be a little pacier.
Yeah.
But I also think that Kursman Trek could be a little slower.
And I think there is a happy media somewhere.
And I think there's some Kurtzman episodes which are slower, which
really appeals to me, and there's some 90 strict episodes, or
something like the Sacrifice of Angels, that go by in a lick, you
know, that are very good.
You know, the original intention was just, you know, 7 goes crazy
and starts assimilating people and attacking the ship.
And that was kind of it, and it was going to be an action thing.
And they decided, well, there's nothing to that, and we have to
make it, give it some character focus.
And so that's where the raven comes from.
I ask a question.
Yeah.
Well, she's seeing a raven because the ship's called the USS raven
right?
But, well, why is she seeing it all as imagery?
Like, I can't understand that.
Is it just to make it a bit more interesting?
Okay.
So this is a little bit like brothers.
So data goes, uh, it goes sort of rogue in brothers.
I know what you're going to say here.
And it's much better.
Here we are.
Years later, and it's far slower than it was in brothers. and more
boring and less kind of competent.
This is my bit more.
Are your translator's malfunctioning?
It's such a bizarre delivery.
Yeah, yeah, but what are they doing?
Like, what are they doing?
Are they funny?
Like, what's happening?
Are they, what are they?
Yeah, but you know what?
If you go through Voyages Run, you could do a whole pocketbook
full of these aliens that they meet along the way, these
forgettable aliens. sort of shitty intransigent aliens who exist
only to, so that there's someone firing on them at the, at the
climax?
Do you remember the fabulous episode, Dreadnaught, where Balana
Torres has to go inside and diffuse a bulb?
It's got her own personality.
So she's basically fine.
But they keep talking to this civilisation on a screen saying, well
the bomb's coming, get away, and they couldn't be more boring.
Why do we care about these people?
Just send the bomb their way.
Yeah, that's right.
It's the famous Veridian 3 problem. from Star Trek generations.
We never see Beridian 3.
We don't give a shit about reading.
But we're supposed to care about it for some reason.
Well, it's like you said in descent, isn't it?
As soon as we went down to.
What was our planet called?
No, I can't even remember now.
Space Planet 10.
Yeah, yeah.
We were like, well, why do we care about this?
I didn't think this was too terrible.
I quite, you know, it isn't the most exciting Star Trek's ever
been.
It's very, very leisurely.
Like they're just sort of strolling around shooting at her.
And I think, you know, there's just, I don't know.
I don't know, I want someone to move the camera. jiggle the camera
do something, have.
You want Jonathan Craiks to come in with a drone.
That's right. rolling around the bridge.
I mean, that was a bizarre.
Did you see that shot there?
The camera was on the floor.
What, you know, just walk away from it?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but look at it.
She walks very slowly.
Let's just watch her in the lift now.
Here she is operating a lift.
Actually, you're right, you know, because I can remember in the
episode that we always talk about.
So when we get it, we'll be so excited, the game.
There's a sequence where Wesley Crushers chased all over the ship
and it's really exciting.
Yeah, you can do it in 90s trek on this budget.
It isn't a budgetary problem.
I mean, this is okay.
We've got a steady cam shot.
That's something, but she just she just casually walks through in
a 2nd, didn't she?
She's got a forced gun around.
She just wanders off, you know?
Yeah, yeah, here she comes.
Well, she looks great with that weapon.
You know, I'm not the sole person to normally notice this sort of
thing. her breasts are highly accentuated within that costume
aren't they?
Yeah, yeah.
No, you can't not notice it.
Now, for me to notice that, it has to be pretty extreme.
That's all I'm saying.
Yeah.
No, I agree.
And it is astonishing.
So it is what I said before.
It's basically a naked woman wandering around the ship.
That isn't a costume they settle on, is it?
Later on.
She has...
Oh no, she has a blue version, doesn't she?
But it's basically the same thing.
Yeah, yeah, it's always like a cat suit. you know.
I mean don't get me wrong.
Like, she's got... beautiful women are beautiful.
Breasts are fantastic.
All of that.
I'm sure that this gave a lot of people a lot of pleasure.
But I'm glad that she's more than that and much, much more than
that.
If I was wearing that, you'd see my fabulous breaths as well, you
know, like, yeah, well, I'm wearing it now.
I'm not saying word.
Oh, there we go.
Oh, and she slammed.
That was very stately in the way that the shuttle pod came out.
They've lost another shuttle pod.
Oh, yeah, yeah. the episode where Jakot has the nerve to say we've
got a full a full complement of shuttle pods.
I'm like, are you kidding me?
Maybe they have the replicator then?
that they have in Star Trek prodigy.
I haven't got the Delta Fly yet, have they?
No.
And now series 5, I think.
Yeah.
Oh, here we go.
The Beaumont again.
Even the name's annoying.
It's it's Bo apostrophe, 0 my.
Yeah, yeah.
Of course it's got a fucking apostrophe in it.
It's a space name from the space name sovereignty.
Like, are they, are they like Soviet Russia, you know, where you
have to, you have to submit a travel plan and you're not allowed
to go near any facilities and stuff like that.
Like, are they a totalitarian thing?
Or are they just like 2 fucking assholes covered in latex?
I knew you were going to say later.
You're obsessed, man.
Don't watch Enterprise winner. took all the latex out of that.
They didn't.
The reason why we know this is so disposable, though. is because
at the end they just go, oh, well, we'll have to go around it
won't we?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What was the bloody point of that then?
Yeah, and I get a sort of, there's a reference to the gift in
there where she says there's no shortcut this time.
And so that's a reference to a few episodes ago where they got
flung, what, an extra 10,000 light years or something.
I think that's one of the best episodes of Voyager, the gift.
It is purely focussed on 3 fabulously strong women.
It's wonderful.
Yeah, it's really, really great.
I do think that Cass is underrated, and we did like her a lot.
Yeah, I do too.
In the, what was the episode that we did?
Can't remember.
With the doctor?
Oh, the swarm.
The swarm.
Yeah.
Oh, another disposable alien.
But much less shit than the Boma.
So there's that.
I believe that we should perhaps use the Beaumar as our level now
of shit.
And we'll just say, are they better or worse than the moment?
Do they come worse than the Boma?
Boma are very bad.
You remember the male on?
They like big turds.
But at least they have an ethos, you know.
I look a bit like the Santarans.
They really do.
He thinks they've been looking over their shoulders, you know, the
designs.
What is this all about?
Harry Kim.
Okay, a couple of episodes ago, a hurricane and 7 of nine were in
a Jeffrey Stube together.
Yeah, 7 of 9 said, um, are you flirting?
Please remove your clothes.
Which is hilarious because he basically, you know, pees his
pants.
Now there's this kind of influence that like he's, you know
heavily into her and it doesn't really go anywhere, does it?
No.
I mean, look, they're trying to work out what to do with the
characters.
Like you drop 7 into this crew and you go, well, what sort of
relationship does she have with it, everyone?
And it's the same thing they do with Ezri in, yeah, in Deep Space
9.
I think it's good.
I think I think it's so interesting that Ezra comes late in the
day because those relationships are so established.
Suddenly, everything's reorganised.
And I really, really like that in the last season.
I know it doesn't really give her a lot of time, but anyway.
Why is it that you said to me, you really like it when they drop
in the new character?
Why is that?
I think that it...
So TV isn't just something that you author because it's really
subject to outside forces.
And so, you know, there's the Babylon 5 idea, the J.
Michael Strazinsky idea where everything's plotted out, you know
meticulously for 7 series or something like that, you know exactly
where the show's going.
And of course, that doesn't even happen to him because he loses
his lead, doesn't he?
in Babylon 5.
I don't know.
Yeah...
He needed his lead and then really early.
He planned it to be an extra season long and they truncated it.
So he rushed.
No, no, he thought it was only going to be 4 series.
So he rushed the ending and then they gave him another series as
well. follow up.
I'll finish the story.
What do I do?
Yeah.
And I like that because it means that they're not entirely in
control, that our world influences the world of the fiction.
And so you...
Oh, these big line approach, isn't it?
We make it up as we go along.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, what Deep Space 9 does is it looks at its characters and
sees what they do well and then tries to throw things at them.
And that's Ron Moore's kind of, and you said Ira Bear.
They go, they go, oh, this Vedic Borau is a bit boring. will kill
him off.
But this Garak, he's working very well.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So I like it.
It gets them to sit down and kind of reevaluate things.
And, you know, they set up relationships in the pilot and some of
them work and some of them don't.
And this gives them a chance to kind of do it again.
Well, do you know what this is?
You know, you know how you love a series 2 episode one.
I think we've had one of those, yeah, have we, for any of the
series?
No.
Well, essentially, I would say that in series 2, episode one of
Voyager, not a lot is happening. 37s, so not a lot happening
there.
Yeah, it's a bit confused about what the 1st episode is, is it?
probably this season, it's technically their series too, isn't
it?
It's certainly the biggest deviation from the the original show.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you remember they had Borg things all over the ship and for one
side of the moment.
I thought it's going to stay like that.
But of course it doesn't.
I'm going to say something extreme now, but I actually almost had
an orgasm when in the gift, right?
At the end of Scorpion, they've suffered all this damage.
And in the gift, it starts and it's still damaged.
I was like, oh, man.
Consequences in firm and trek, you know.
Yeah.
Of course, in the next episode it was shining.
It's all fine.
Yeah.
But even so, we'll take it for a single episode.
Okay, what's occurring now?
I've completely lost the plot.
Yeah, no, I have as well, but too...
I'm honest. find her.
So she's escaped, obviously, crashing through the shuttle door
thing.
And Tuvoc and Paris are going to rescue her.
Now, one of the things that I thought was a little bit shit here
was that she seemed to go crazy and want to be a Borg for space
reasons.
And what other reasons are there?
There needed to be kind of character reasons.
And it's that thing.
We talked about it in descent where data gets turned evil because
law sends him a beam of some kind.
Here she seems to be turning into a Borg or go, right, oh, Christ
there's a Boma again.
What's the only thing there's even more shit than the terrible
design of those shovels and that's the Beaumar fleet that she's
facing.
How do you like the shuttles?
No, it was so boring.
When we were watching Discovery the other day, they were all sleek
and gorgeous.
You know, oh, it looks amazing to me.
That's 32nd century technology, though, and design.
I think this is the shuttles are all right.
You know.
I think it looks a bit like an eggbox, if you ask me.
Oh my god.
Did you see that terrible blocking there where Chewbok was in
front of the camera, right?
And Tom Paris has to turn around and say something.
He's right behind him and then on cue, he turns around into shot.
You know, like, Robert Duncan Vanil is actually waiting there for
his cue.
Hiding their own team, Ross.
Some of the blocking in 90s tracking, something else.
So Tuvok's going over there.
And so we get a scene between 7 and Tuvok, and I always worry
about scenes between 7 and Tuvok, because they both speak stupid
Star Trek, alien contractions.
Yeah, and it's kind of no inflection.
They're supposed to be emotionless.
I'm annoying because they're both really good actors.
Well, I actually think that they both managed to make it clear
what their characters are feeling and to give the thing some
emotional content just by being a bit subtle.
This is a shitty fist type, though.
I mean, every time they do it in a shovel.
It so funny.
Even that, I mean, that's really bad.
Although the idea that she disables him using the Vulcan nerve
pinch is pretty damn great.
Like that's a great idea.
There was one episode, right, in the show, without a fight, and
they were so desperate for things to do without space, that he's
trying, the terrorist is trying to press the button, right?
to set off this nuclear weapon and destroy the wormhole.
And Kira just grabs his leg and she's tugging him.
It's like the worst pie ever. funny.
Oh bless them.
I like this too.
He's sneaking up behind her.
We get the shot of the back of her neck, which makes it look like
he's going to come up to her, and then she's put the force field
in.
She's so cool, isn't she?
It's a force village.
You can't get in.
No, she knows.
Yeah, yeah.
You can't phase her, really, can you?
No.
I have made jokes about this sort of blocking before with one
character talking to another character's back, but I think it
works here.
You know, she's now turned around to talk to him.
But I think this is good.
I think this is properly good and there's a space reason why she
rushes off.
Right.
And all those implants sprout.
But it's not the space reason that's important.
It is the fact that we've had a conversation with Janeway about
rediscovering our humanity, with talk to Neelix, and we're eating
food for the 1st time.
We're starting to become human.
And it's when that happens that she get these, she gets these
hallucinations.
And she admits here to Tuvok that these hallucinations aren't
caused by the space signal that she's receiving.
So these hallucinations are her genuinely confused and repressed
memories of being assimilated and the fear associated with that.
So this isn't her reasserting her Borgness at all.
This is her reasserting her humanity.
And I kind of like that.
Well, it's unique as well, isn't it?
Because it's Voyager and this Voyager very rarely did this.
They're taking something we understand from the next generation
and giving like throwing a new light on it and giving it a bit
more depth and a bit more context.
I like the fact that we go on quite an extended journey with her
from being the drone to being who she is in Picard.
Well, I mean, this scene here where she says, thank Janeway.
I'm not going to assimilate you.
Thank Janeway for her patience and her kindness.
And that's a development because, yeah, just a few episodes ago.
She was saying, I'm going to kill you and all your crew, you
know?
I think it's ruined slightly because too Voc has to explain it.
But this is probably interesting in a way that I thought it was
just like, oh, she goes rogue for no reason at all.
Like in brothers, a similar thing happens, doesn't it?
There's a signal that causes data to take over the ship and go and
see Dr. Song.
But also as well.
What I really like about the climax of this episode is where, I
don't know, I'm so used to these 45 minute episodes and, you know
being unsatisfied at the ending, you know, so you just got hand
waving techno bad.
Oh, I said to you, isn't it?
usually it's split, it's either a character ending or it's a
tinabab ending.
Yeah, yeah.
And, you know, which one I prefer.
But the ending for this is really quite satisfying because we're
learning a little bit about her backstory.
Yeah.
And Voyager doesn't really do that either.
No, I wonder whether they blow the backstory thing a little bit
early and clearly they decide that they did because we're going to
have dark frontier next season or the season after next season
isn't it?
season, yeah.
And it was a big deal.
Like I seem to remember, I can't remember how I watched these at
the time.
But I do know that dark season was very, very heavily promoed and
stuff.
It was and it was an event, like a TV event.
That had some pretty good action in it, you know, and that was
quite a, or is that going to be the way of the warrior effect
where we think it's got lots of action in it, actually. people
standing in rooms.
It's just lots of scenes on a ball cube.
Gameway and the ball queen flirting terribly.
But actually, do you know what?
It's very strange.
The 3 Voyager episodes that we've done.
Need to be saying they don't do backstory.
We had Bilana Torres's backstory in Yiddish.
The doctor's backstory in swarm.
Yeah, he did.
And now we've got seven's backstorm.
We had none of that in the DS9 episodes we've done, have we?
No.
We just watched the baseball tag. 2 next.
I can't wait to get into that.
Native American specialist that they have.
There's a great story there, I'm telling you.
Yeah.
So why does Seven's Diary say that the Eyes of the Raven are
yellow when they're clearly black?
I mean, it's a fact that they forgot to put the special effect on
the raven's eyes.
A little bit embarrassing.
Or do you think they were, did you think they were talking about a
different sort of book or they just got the bird wrong?
If they were talking about something like that.
They're talking about Hawk or something like that.
No, I mean, it is a, it is a, she says a Corvid, which I think is
pretty great.
A member of the Corvid eye fan.
Old group does this scene brilliantly.
You know, she really does this thing.
She's like, it sounds like she's describing a member of the COVID
family or a crow or... a raven.
And she has read, is it because she's read the files?
She's said that she's read the files.
She knows Anika Hansen's backstory.
Is that why she reacts like that to the word raven?
Like, in which case it shouldn't have taken her quite so long
Nathan, she, Mulgrew's just a terrible ham, that's all.
It's wonderful.
I mean, she is absolutely compelling to watch.
She is utterly superb.
I'm a massive fan of cable group.
We never, ever would have known what it should have been Bijol
would have been like.
Yeah, well, Nicola Bryant.
Oh, that would have been extraordinary.
Mulgrew was the only one.
She is great.
And you know what?
I, I always, I have got issues with Jake.
I do.
I don't think I think she's written inconsistently, certainly.
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Moore's got a lot to say about that later on.
Um, Margaret was always great.
Like she takes whatever crumbs they give her and turns it into a
sandwich somehow.
Yeah, I think, you know, the performance is generally better than
Patrick Stewart, who I think is pretty good.
But I don't think either of them are as interesting as Avery
Brooks.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just because, well, you never know what you're getting there.
No, exactly.
Oh my word, look how hot truth all looks there in the shadows.
Yeah, yeah.
So Team Ross is massively underrated and it's mostly because he's
massively underused, isn't he?
Did you, oh, I didn't tell you that I, what he said in that uh
Voyager reunion.
And they're all going, oh, yeah, that's this episode.
And Tim Ross puts down up, he goes, oh, is that the one where I'm
at the tactical console saying they're firing on those captains?
He said, oh, I did that from time to time.
Oh, there was just about all he did.
They waste him.
I mean, what a waste.
It's, it's, and the few times I give him something incredible to
do.
He just blows your socks off.
Yeah, he's amazing.
This, that, that scene with him and Jerry Ryan in the shuttlecraft
where he kind of wins her over and he's super kind to her and
concerned about her and he plays it so subtly because he's a
Vulcan or whatever, I think he's really, really good.
Honestly, 9 times out of 10, a chewbox centric episode is a poet.
Do you remember that one where he's on that planet with those
kids?
Oh, good.
He's babysitting those kids, and he has to do everything, like, to
stop him somewhere, you bloody little shit.
They're like, eh, oh, it's tall.
And all the one in Serial 7 where it becomes a serial murderer.
And he's investigating the tail.
Oh, it's all some marquee member.
It's awful.
Oh, hang on.
Look at this special effect.
Well, so in the shitty cave set, and there's a much worse shot a
little bit later.
I actually think it looks like a sort of Hugo and Nebula Award
winning science fiction novel cover, you know, like we've got
those space ships.
Ernie Summerfield and the Raven.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Terrible.
It is really, really bad.
Do you know what shocks me, though, is I think there are generally
some like old CSO shots of 70s Doctor Who actually looks better.
Better than that.
So many special effects are there.
They just look so fake against it.
Yeah, yeah, that's the problem.
It's not always the CGOA.
It's just that they clearly are not there with the setting. know?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, this is the sort of set that they can make in their sleep
and they clearly have done that.
This is the sort of set in every other next generation episode.
You know, they beam in and there's smoke everywhere and a couple
of bodies lying around, you know.
This is, I do think these scenes, the flashbacks are a bit
ghoulish, though, you know, quite scary.
It is actually, I think it's unintentionally, or maybe
intentionally, it's actually much worse because she's a little
girl.
Like she's 7 and she's captured by the Borg.
Her parents are taken over and then she's captured and taken
over.
But this could have been so try with her going around going, yeah
mama, papa.
But she's a little bit shit.
Oh, yeah, no, like, like, like, as Richard.
I think she plays it very well.
I think she very nearly pulls off something impossible, I think.
Do you remember the episode where she has infinite regrets where
she has the multiple personality?
and one of them is a child and she's playing quite a bit.
It's Voyages masks, you know?
I'll never stop talking about masks, you know, so terrible.
I'll bet you do yeah.
But she's very, very good in that as well.
And she's another one where whenever they, like, she's great at
seven.
But when they give her a chance to do, like when she plays the
character in the killing game.
Yeah, the singer, you know, so much. marvellous in that.
She's really great.
Yeah, yeah.
She's really something.
So these two...
What I was watching is I wasn't aware of our slow ears, but now I
actually feel like it is quite slow this.
Yeah, no, it's glacial.
And there's action.
You know, there's a space battle and there's her taking over the
ship.
Like there is action.
Yeah, but it's not well done.
With the Beaumar.
With a, remember?
Omar.
What if it had been the Sheliac corporate or something?
You know, like it's so they're so boring.
They're so bad.
Oh, this, yeah.
I have to say, I will keep repeating.
This was very fresh at the time.
This felt very interesting.
Go on.
I want to talk about her delivery of the line where she says she
had 6 candles on her cake and one more to grow on.
And the way she delivers it is that she remembers her parents
saying that, but she didn't understand at the time what that
meant.
And she conveys that in her line delivery.
She's properly thoughtful, even when, you know, like this is a bit
shit, in the sense that we get a big messenger speech.
Like we don't get to see any of this happening until, I guess
start Frontier when they go back to it.
It's always graphic and it's explicit.
Dull frontier.
Yeah, well, they must have realised that they blew a really, really
interesting story by having her just cheaply walk around, do some
great acting, but just tell us what happened.
And so, you know, it's television. show us what happened and they
do that next year.
I'll tell you the wonderful story about Jerry Ryan being off of
the poll.
And then she said, oh, in an interview, she goes, so I thought, you
know, I'm going to sit down and watch an episode of this before I
go to the audition to see what it's like.
So, and it was rise, that dreadful series 3 episode with the
orbital tether.
I watched it with my mum and it was the worst thing that either of
us had ever seen.
And so she phoned out Rick Berman the next day I said, I'm so
sorry, but I don't want to be a part of this.
And they had to actively convince her to go to the audition.
Bless her.
It's so weird, isn't it?
That I don't know.
I was thinking about this the other day.
Like you get this part and maybe it's just that I live among nerds
who care about this show, but it seems to be this sort of weird
lifelong commitment.
You know, you are always 7 of 9 and, you know, she's back doing it
still.
Bless her.
Yeah, I think, well, I don't know.
I think, At the time, she says that this was not, this was one of
her least favourite jobs that she'd ever done because she was in a
constant state of anxiety for 2 seasons of this show.
I think she said, because of how she was being treated.
And I think there was a bit of a click behind Mulgrew as well.
It wasn't just Mulgrew.
She was just the, you know, the the the head of all this.
Um, and she said that she was like genuinely nauseous going into
work most days and things like that, you know, that's that's
pretty important.
You know, the stories about her, you know, Mulgrew saying, you
know, she's not going to the bathroom.
We're not waiting for her to get out of that costume every 5
minutes.
Yeah, it's it's a shame.
It's a shame because they do great work.
Yeah.
And I'm happy that she gets a Star Trek experience that she
actually enjoys making like.
And I'm happy that the pair of them can acknowledge what happened
and have a relationship now because it's clearly very warm between
them now, you know.
Oh, gosh, it's a really shitty special effect.
Look at Shuvok coming out of there.
Look.
The matting in this scene.
Look at them standing in front of those rocks.
Yeah, yeah.
Why does it come apart in segments like that?
I don't know.
I was wondering that as well.
It looks like garlic bread, doesn't it?
It doesn't it?
Like someone's chopping it with a knife.
They're like, well, this will be a bit more interesting.
Yeah, yeah.
It's all right.
Oh, God, a fleet of Beaumar vessels.
Approaching.
Yeah, yeah.
She's hung up on them already, which I think is the best thing
about it.
She did that before. was like, I don't have time for this.
Hang on.
We basically been waiting 40 minutes for that.
Yeah, it is pretty good.
That was pretty great.
But she wins. shame right.
This is like PG-13, so she can't just, you know, phone him up and
say, oh, fuck off, you know.
Well, you can't even say fuck on Discovery now, which I think is a
great shame because I really enjoyed a book.
And it was so you can...
Oh, you had a heart attack when someone told you.
I had Jean-Lupe Picard to fuck off.
Yeah, if only it had been Admiral Nachev, though.
It would have been so good.
In fact, you know what?
You know, you know, I hate all the fucks, hasn't it, couple?
But if she'd have said it, I'd have been well behind that.
So good. been squeezing his nuts for years and years.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Oh, that's it, the plot.
So, what happened to the Beaumont then?
They just flew away from them.
They went off.
This great serious threat to a witch.
Oh my god. just gone away.
Do you recall dragon's teeth in series 6 where they were setting
up the Vardois as this great space nemesis to Voyager. space
corridors, and at the end, they even had a like, oh, until the
next time we see them.
And then we never do.
They never mentioned again.
Unsurprisingly, we don't hear from the Beaumar again either.
No.
Well, the sword don't come back.
There's a new alliance between the Vardois, the Beaumar on the
swamp.
Swarm.
That's the finale.
Yeah, they're called the Confederacy and they're going to be our
enemies for the rest of the series run.
I don't know, though.
I could have done a few more scenes for that man with a strange
delivery.
It's so, like it's just, it's just a, that'll do, isn't it?
That's good enough, you know.
It's like the sort of actors don't get, you know, day players in a
soap, isn't it?
Yeah, whatever.
I'm only getting 50 quid, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
But it is the fact that we've just decided we're not going to have
any kind of conception of what the Boma are.
They're not going to be anything that's identifiable.
That's just a sort of fucking Star Trek alien and that's enough.
What do you imagine those co-hangers are all about?
I don't know.
But remember, do you remember when the Cardassians 1st appear in
is it the wounded?
And it was gulled?
It's Goldy Kart playing someone else and they have a, they have
stupid head gear as well, which they wisely decide to get rid of.
To be fair, some of the great races of the Alpha Quadrant, their
initial makeup.
Remember warf, early makeup, and the early trill, which was just
the bumps on the head and the very slight spots and things.
Oh, the Ferengi in the last outpost are pretty shitty as well, I
think.
I swear even Bologna Torres's makeup was different. series one.
Yeah, yeah.
They softener up as they go along, don't they?
Yeah.
So what great things did you learn about the Raven then?
Well, I actually think that it is that it's not a bad Star Trek
episode.
And what I was going for when I chose it was...
I just want a truck episode.
Just do a Star Trek episode and see what it's like because we'd
had a few events and we'd done a fair bit of Kurtzman Trek and I
wanted to just, you know, go back to our roots and do just a
standard 90s Star Trek episode.
And I think that that was absolutely that.
And it was a great mixture of things that were very good and some
really good performances and some very sluggish pacing and some
very weird and bad creative decisions.
So perfect, I think.
I think it kind of exposes that 90s trek could do carot's work
quite depthly, but also it had this bizarre ability to do these B
plots.
Like, you know, you you do this wonderful thing of tying in, you
know, sometimes I think, you know, you read sometimes a little bit
too much.
But, but, you know, it's fair.
But with these Kursman episodes where all the themes are united
you know, and I do think that it's absolutely there.
Whereas what on earth the Beaumar and 7 of 9 discovering her
parents' ship have to do with each other.
I have no idea.
They are merely there to provide a space battle in the middle of
the episode and some kind of countdown, some sort of pressure at
the end of the episode.
So they are, they're nothing.
They're a plot function.
Plus, they haven't tested Kate Mulgrew's acting ability for a
while.
Bring in the shit aliens.
Yeah, yeah.
Let's see if she can hold it together standing in front of these
people.
All right, it's time for us to choose our next Star Trek episode
and Joe has his finger hovering over the button.
Can you tell me, Joe, what series you're choosing from?
Yes, yes, I have chosen 4 Star Trek series today from the Random
Ice.
As a quick side note, I did just mention that I have used a
randomiser this week and it is such a, honestly, get on there and
use it.
I would have been agonising over my shelves for hours.
So that's untitled Star Trek project.com slash randomiser.
I put all the series in there and I got Voyages Dragon Steve. was
rather good.
I'm so sorry.
Okay.
So I have chosen the original series because we haven't done that
for a little while and it's always terrific factor.
Last time we got Spock's brain, which was amazing.
Yeah, yeah.
I have chosen Deep Space 9 again.
I'm really sorry.
I just love it so much.
I've chosen Enterprise.
Because I always think that's a really interesting one to rip the
shit out.
And I've chosen lower decks because we've only done one.
Okay, here we go.
Oh this is exciting.
Oh Christ.
Start your Star Trek Enterprise episode is Season one.
Episode 18, rogue planet.
Oh my god.
No, I don't even want to know what that is.
I bet that's just strange new world part two.
Yeah, it's just about a rogue planet, I think.
All right.
For example, that, do we?
Okay, your random Star Trek original series episode is, oh, yes
let's do this.
Spectre of the gum.
Oh.
Season 3, episode six.
Fabulous.
Bizarre alien in the Black Mist and...
No, this is great.
This is hugely exciting.
I'm absolutely here for it I think this is really, really good
this episode.
Do you know, I don't know it well at all.
I mean, obviously the iconography, you know, the look of it is
absolutely iconic, but I can't remember watching it.
So I'm quite looking forward to this.
It's so iconic that they ripped it, didn't they, in lower days?
Yeah, yeah, in the episode we were watching.
That's the one we were watching, wasn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
How much fun?
And actually, this is really good to do because we did a series 3
episode of...
That was terrible.
Oh, I mean, it was brilliant, but it was brilliant awful.
But I actually think this has a lot of mirror.
And so it just goes to show that even though the show was on the
decline.
Yeah, it could still do interesting things.
Cool, that's brilliant.
Let's do that.
I can't wait.
I'm going to watch it tonight.
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
You can find us online at untitledstar trekproject.com where you
can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 10th of March 2022 and released
on the 11th of March.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek, the original series, Spectre
of the Gum.