Hey, Joe. Hi.
So we are back aboard Deep Space 9, and it's actually Deep Space 9
for the 1st time.
We're doing the pilot.
I think it might be our 1st pilot, apart from Strange New Worlds.
Perhaps, and Starfleet Academy.
We've done a few finalees, haven't we?
But not many pilots.
We have.
So this is called Emissary, uh, with a story by Rick Berman and
Michael Piller, and it's directed by David Carson, and it aired on
the 3rd of January 1993, and over on the Enterprise D. We had just
had chain of command part 2 and our next episode is going to be
ship in a bottle.
Oh, yeah, good time for Star Trek.
It is quite a good time for Star Trek.
I gather that you're fairly indifferent about this one, is that
right?
Yeah, well, as a show, you know, Deeks waste.
I can take it or leave it, you know?
No, I mean, I will say, and it sounds like hyperbole, but I think
emissary may be responsible for me being here today. and doing
untitled Star Trek project because I genuinely had never aged 13
seen television quite like this because I was only watching, you
know, kids television until this point. and my mum watched
emissary and said, I think you'll really like this.
Um, you, you know, because I love TNG, but that wasn't the most
sophisticated of programs and um, we watched it together and my
mind was blown.
The discussion of religion, the sort of intense look at somebody's
mental health, somebody having a breakdown.
Um, the political situation that it drew.
I just hadn't seen TV that intelligently looked at things like
that before.
But on the same time, I was sort of blown away by how it looked
for 93.
You know, there was a lot of money that was thrown at this
18000000 or something like that.
Like it was the most expensive pilot, I think, to that point.
And yeah, and I just didn't look back from that point.
I was a DS9 fan for life.
Mum and I watched the entire run of D Space 9 together. one of 2
shows that we watched together, um, which ended up being some of
the best conversations I think I ever had with her and certainly
some of my fondest memories with her.
So, whilst I can see, I can see flaws in emissary, I can see it's
a show that will evolve and this certainly isn't where they land
with a lot of things ultimately.
I think it's a really impressive debut, and I think it's going out
of its way to differentiate itself from TNG in lots of interesting
ways.
So I can't wait to talk about this one.
Yeah, I'm excited as well.
I think it's really good and I think I always have.
I think this time, what I thought was really, really good is that
2nd half where Cisco's talking to the prophets, and I just think
it's so strong and so clever and so well done.
And I also just think just the way that it sets everything up
because it's not a particularly complex plot.
It is very straightforward.
It does spend most of its time introducing the cast, which it
tends to do very deftly.
There are some overwritten parts.
I think, you know, for sure.
That's probably why they set me to this guard forsaken place.
That porn.
Nah.
That's the worst thing.
But everyone's very charming.
Everyone's very likeable.
The show is really fun and interesting.
The fact that you have a spaceship and various ships gives it a
scale where, you know, it's not just our thing where we're on a
ship.
Immediately, it opens up a different kind of way of telling
stories.
There isn't a massive guest cast, but some important people appear
for the 1st time.
Oh, which is really interesting.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, lots of planets have in Italy.
As well, I couldn't watch the pilot.
Yeah.
And he's magnificent.
He's really good in it.
We do get to see J.G. Hansler very briefly at the beginning in a
completely different role and he'll become very important later.
Don't you think that's glorious because he plays a role in season
one and a role in season 7 that aren't Martok. and that's all the
fabulous Martok.
They just can't get enough of him, can they?
Yeah, yeah.
I know he's terrific in it as well.
And you know, you can see it doing things that TNG gets wrong, but
you can also see it doing things that it learns from TNG.
And I do think, for instance, that starting it with the Battle of
Wolf 359, which is the 1st event.
Remember when we did best of both worlds?
And I said, this is the 1st historical event in Star Trek history
the franchise, isn't it?
Exactly right.
And it's the 1st event that we've seen play out and result in
emotional consequences for a character.
And so we had family, exploring how Picard was affected by that.
And so that's what we lean into in this episode.
We lean into Wolf 359.
And what I really like about it is that it starts embedded in Star
Trek, but that the arc that Cisco undergoes is an arc of moving on
from that and being excited by the future.
And that's the most interesting thing, I think, that when he's
still there, when he's someone who never left the Saratoga, has
always been there during the Battle of Wolf 359, one of those
beautiful lines.
And one of the most stunning revelations in the thing, I think all
of that's so well handled.
But when he's explaining to the prophets what the future is and
why not knowing what the future is thrilling and exciting.
Using the baseball.
Exactly.
And he's embracing the future, but he's also introducing it to us
and allowing us kind of to take that approach as well.
A future where we don't know what's going to happen.
That's the fun of it.
We don't know where it's going to go, and it's entirely about this
riding team's approach to the show.
We don't know where it's going at this and it's really, really
exciting that we value our ignorance of the future.
And from this point of view, now, Deep Say Snine's defined.
Yeah, yeah.
Now that DC Stone's defined, we don't have that ignorance of the
future anymore, but it just reminded me how exciting the prospect
of that was and how much it was about the show as much as it is
about Cisco's life.
Well, you know where we're going, don't you?
They've just spent 8000000 on this thing.
We ain't leaving the station for the rest of the season.
That's so expensive as well, though.
The one thing that really stood out to me was just how dirty and
broken down and how not the enterprise this setting is.
It's not a beautiful lounge with carpet on the walls, you know
there is, there's a bit of grit here, and I like that cork's bars
introduced in a sort of smoky, grungy sort of a way with all of
the low lives of the galaxy in there, and you're just like, yeah
do you know what?
We ain't in Kansas anymore.
We are in a way station on the edge of the galaxy where basically
anyone can come and adventures are rife.
It's really exciting Yeah, I think it's really great.
I think it's really good.
I'm looking forward to seeing again.
Well, obviously, we'll point out as we go through as well.
Like there are things that aren't formed here.
And then I'll hair for one. worst hair.
Poor Terry's performance.
And it's worth talking about Terry Farrell, because I think it is
possibly the most impressive development of a performance from
sort of here to where she lands.
Because when she gets there, she's one of the most vital
characters we've ever seen in Star Trek.
But here, she's very quiet.
She's got rounds beyond her back.
She was like a monk, isn't she, going around sort of quoting
Technobabble all the time.
Yeah, she gets to chill a little bit.
I think Armin is kind of overplaying it.
He's having the occasional last outpost moment still.
Not some of his lines, though.
What is it?
When governments fall, people like me are lined up and shot.
All of that stuff too, like all of that, you know, the provisional
government staff, you're right.
I can see why you thought as a kid that this was incredibly grown
up because, you know, we had had hints of this towards the end of
Star Trek, the Next Generation, and Star Trek, the Next Generation
will move into that a bit where you've got the McKee and various
other sort of things that lead to Voyager as well.
So it's starting to take place in a world that's a little bit more
like contemporary politics or kind of reflect some contemporary
concerns.
Doesn't linger, though. does it?
It doesn't linger on TNG because we're off to another adventure.
We're stuck here and the mistakes we make today will have
consequences tomorrow.
And, that's not a revelation in terms of, of drama, but it is a
revelation in terms of Star Trek.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, you can't say where it's going and the show does kind of
say that.
And, you know, they didn't know where it was going, but they do
set up something which lets them develop things in the long term.
It wasn't 100% necessary for them to do it.
They could have done a much less serialised version of this, but
I'm glad that they didn't because it really pays off and just
makes for something really fun and interesting, I think.
The thing that really, really stood out, amongst things that
really stood out, was Avery Brooks, and just what a sound choice
that was giving him this part.
And I think he is after this a bit quiet in series one.
Yes.
But I think he walks into this episode and he's charismatic and
he's taken on a difficult position and he plays that scene where
he breaks down.
It is heartbreaking when he when he breaks down.
And I just, I mean, I suppose we do get that from Picard in family
but I don't know, this just feels more brutal somehow.
There's something about Avery Brooks and his heart on his sleeve
that just feels like, you remember Far Beyond the Stars?
It's just so raw.
Yeah.
I think that I think that Avery Brooks plays those things better
than Patrick Stewart does.
I'm always slightly embarrassed by Patrick Stewart going over the
top.
No, no, no.
When Patrick Stewart goes over the top in family, I find that a
little bit awkward, but I really like this.
And I think too, you know, we gave one of the regulars a child in
Star Trek the Next Generation, obviously it had to be the woman.
So here, giving the main character, the commander, the central
character a child, and making that child not a special magical
child, but just an ordinary kid, is great. reaction, isn't it?
It's always a reaction to what basically nobody liked about TNG.
Yeah, yeah, but, but also things like, like, it makes the mistake
of only having 2 women, you know, in a large regular cast, and
that's a problem, and they will learn from that, eventually.
They do address it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But by the time we get to seven, we've got a whole cast of semi
regulars.
Yeah that's right.
And lots more women.
But the 2 women are the science officer and the 2nd in command
rather than the, you know, chief nurse and handholder, like we
have on the enterprise.
And that's great.
You know, like Nanan's a great character and eventually...
She's in charge, isn't she?
She's the one doing all the bluff into the Kardashians.
Fire that one shot or we've only got one shot.
Yeah, we ain't gonna win it with that, all right?
It's so good.
And you're right.
She's kind of the central character because Avery's off in his
subplot learning about grief and loss and the future and moving on
and stuff, and she's doing all the exciting space stuff, and
that's really great, and she's really good at it.
Like, she's really compelling.
She's constantly in the chair for our, um, Deep Space 9, and Nana
said in an interview, every time I was in that chair.
I felt so powerful.
He's not having it back, all right?
Do you know what?
I think we're going to have a lot of fun watching this.
But I think there's a lot of substance to talk about as well.
Yeah, I do too.
All right.
I think we should go in.
What do you think?
I'm ready.
Okay.
I will count us in.
Five, four, three, two, one and we're off.
It's our 1st crawl.
It's a great opening this.
It just drags you into this thing, doesn't it?
Well, it gives them a chance to do something that they must have
thought they would never have been able to do because Star Trek
the Next Generation moves on after best of both worlds.
It does haunt the rest of the run of the show.
But the thing that they couldn't afford to do was to depict the
Battle of Wolf 359, which is why the big money shot in best of
both worlds is the ships, yeah, the graveyard of destroyed ships
because that's all they could afford.
Here we're actually seeing the ships being destroyed.
We've just seen bunches and bunches of them.
It doesn't compare to what battles will be like by season 7 of
Deep Space Guy.
It's stitchy.
Well, for 93.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, all of the all of the camera work around that book cube is
pretty dynamic.
Yeah, yeah.
Look, that POV shop from La Cutus's point of view.
Yep, yep.
All of that.
It's really good Do you know the thing when I 1st watched this, the
thing that really stood out to me immediately wasn't the battle
sequence, although it was terribly exciting.
It was just how personal this all was.
And the point here isn't that the Federation, I fight in the
Borg.
The point is, a man's just lost his wife.
And it was a version of Star Trek that I just couldn't conceive at
that point.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, again, you know, like Beverly has lost her husband, um
before the thing opens, you know, she's a widow, just like he's a
widower.
But and we do occasionally visit that.
That is a thing that's part of the backstory.
But here having it vividly depicted and making the 1st episode
about moving on from that.
And I guess it really is only as we record now that I realise that
it's moving on from TNG to DS9, you know, as much as anything
else.
But this is so great.
It's properly nasty.
I mean, Jake J.
Hurst was already dead.
And he was there on the floor.
It looked like Garrett from yesterday's Enterprise, covered in
blood, rocks everywhere.
Yeah, his Dora.
Dora's not being paid to answer that question though.
But we've never done that in the next generation.
You just find someone in utter distress in the middle of a crisis
like that.
Yeah, it is that weird thing where we've taken a ship full of
civilians and children and stuff to find the book, but what are
you going to do?
There wasn't time to offload them.
No, that's right.
Yeah, we had to get everybody there post-haste.
I mean, I even love that shot out the window of the ship
exploding.
It's amazing, isn't it?
And he had a choice here, and this would have been a different
show if he'd have chosen Jennifer, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The little, little Jake.
Oh, no.
No.
No, that's young, Jake.
So, like Jennifer's dead, obviously, already by this point.
Um, and it's, I just think the way that this imagery gets played
with later and the way that we get to revisit it is so good.
And I think the woman who plays Jennifer is really great.
Like really properly great.
And does she come back how many times?
Once or twice?
Twice in 2 alternative universe episodes.
Yeah, in season 3 of season four.
Yeah, and she's terrific.
She's really good in this.
She's great on the beach, isn't she?
My mother always told me to watch out for junior officers.
I love his line.
Your mother is going to adore me.
It's so good.
So good.
He's talking about that aubergine shoe that we ended up seeing
Daxi in the Nagus.
Do you remember?
Although, I get the impression that the father's supposed to be
dead at this point because he does say my father was a... a...
He sent the awesome one as well in season two.
He goes, I knew there was nothing I could do to save my father.
And then he turns up in series four.
Like we say, they do improvise occasionally.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, all right.
So he was dead.
No, fair enough.
There's a terrific shot of the shuttle shooting a white.
There it is.
Yeah, yeah.
But when it stops shuddering and the moment it's free of the
Saratoga, it just heads off.
And the way that he's looking into that's where his wife was
that's where he left her.
And I think what's really great too is the choice.
Like just he closes his eyes and slowly turns away.
The choice to not go to the opening credits with that is the right
choice as well.
So now we're 3 years later and we're on the holodeck.
And look how good our good Syrac is.
He's so amazingly right.
The chemistry between these two.
And it's because Avery, as an actor, embraced Sirok Lofton and
took him into his family straight away.
He took a very frightened child who suddenly had a massive role on
television and was so kind to him. father and son.
It's wonderful, isn't it?
And we know...
Sorry, just a decision to have a black family.
Oh, yeah, yeah. displaying so much love.
I mean, it's ridiculous to say it.
It was kind of revolutionary.
Yeah, yeah.
I think for us, do you know what I mean?
as white people, as just white guys, like, just, like, because
I've seen this portrayed over and over again in media since then
but just the, like, the love, the, just the incredible tactility
of their relationship, they're always touching one another.
It's so sweet.
And like he's 14.
So Syric is 10 years younger than I am.
He's 14 years old at this point.
He's 21 by the time the show ends.
Look at that opening shot.
It grows a few inches in that time.
He's towering over Cisco by the end.
It's always this thing where you can't stick in because he's
queued at 14. and then puberty comes and suddenly he's a horror
show.
See the nanny.
But that's not the case with Serong.
No, he grows into a handsome man and seeing him recently on
Starfleet Academy.
He's a properly handsome app, isn't he?
I mean, he looks like Avery's son now, doesn't he?
doesn't he?
Well, all that stuff that we learned about that relationship
through tawny and 3 interviews and stuff was just incredible.
It's beautiful.
I can't wait till we roll that one.
That was going to be a banger on a commentary.
Well, we're seeing this station now as we're sort of heading
towards it.
Lonely Outpost and there's sort of, uh, Led Shake music as we head
towards it.
But I watched a special feature with the designers for this
commentary and they show you all of the versions of what you could
have had before they landed on.
No, it's going to be a Cardassian station.
And there was like Starfeet designs and they were also boring.
They all look so tedious.
And then it was 2 circles, right?
A circle and then another circle as a vertical circle and a
horizontal circle.
That was going to be it, and it was Berman finally coming up with
a creatively sound decision.
He went, no, take off that bit and that bit and have it as like
teeth in the air.
And it's a great look.
It's so, I mean, they wanted a station that said, this is deep
space nine.
You literally, you can't see any other show looking at that. can
you?
I just even think making it dark brown.
You know the way the discovery decides that all of the ships are
going to be sort of this burnish brass colour instead of the
instead of the, you know, federation blue gray?
And that's a really interesting choice here, just making this dark
brown and making the interiors dark brown as well.
I think just really works.
It's a stunning model.
And this opening shot too, with the enterprise, where we go around
the docking pylons and stuff.
I've learned the names of all of the bits of the ship of the
station, by the way.
Have you got the technical manual?
No, I just looked it up.
It's called the space station, this episode too, just in case we
don't realise it's the space station.
Then they start calling it the station.
Look at that.
You just got to see the bridge on the top level there, but they
haven't actually built the proper top level.
Yeah, yeah.
But they're trying to suggest it's a split level set at this
point.
And we do that in the final shot.
The final shot goes back up there, remember?
And it's all cleaned up and now it's the space mall that we'll get
to know for the next 7 years.
Look at the state of it, Nathan.
Looks like Empoc Norm.
God, doesn't it?
Uncanny, isn't it?
I did no, I remember watching this going, oh, Christ, this isn't
the Enterprise.
Look at the state of it.
How could they ever going to make this look pristine?
And where's the carpet on the walls?
What do you think of the outfits?
The, like what, um, what uh, combs wearing here?
Uh, is it not what they land with?
Yeah, it is what they land with, but we haven't talked about it.
I like them.
I like the black.
I like the predominantly black.
It's quite slimming, you know.
I think so too.
I do think they look a bit pajama-y at times.
And like the pockets don't do them any favour. don't they?
But the, you know, they kind of, you know, because they've got
like elastic in them and stuff.
They just seem like track pants sometimes, but they seem that
military, but I do like them too.
I like the black.
Francisco has no idea.
He's just talked to this monk and he said, come on, commander, it's
time.
And he goes, I don't know, another time.
And he has no idea that the conversations he eventually has with
these people will change his life a spare time as well.
And you know, it's one of those lines I use in my life all the
time.
Commander, it is time.
People go, why are you calling me commander?
Oh, it's just the food replicator.
Come on.
I know, it's so cute, is it?
It's so good.
He's so unimpressed by it.
It's not safe to be out because there's looters about.
It's just a bit more dangerous, isn't it?
Yeah.
I mean, it won't last.
I mean, of course, who's the looter?
It's his best friend?
No.
Yeah, that's right.
That's so fun.
So great.
I mean, has ever a character taken an incredible journey, like
Nog.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It is amazing.
He does get mentioned by name.
I think he wants.
I think we hear his name.
Rom is there at the Darbo table, but he doesn't get credited by
name.
He's like Darbo guy.
I love how he makes fun, how, um, Ben makes fun of, um, of
little.
Okay, and just go going.
That is how that is how fathers and sons take the piss out of each
other though, isn't it?
so cute.
I fucking love the opposite.
I mean, they've learned some messes here, haven't they, from Next
Generation?
Oh, that's a terrible set.
I mean, that's a shockingly bad set.
Yeah, yeah. it's really good And again, like it, I, it's not, you
know, you see those big shots of the enterprise set. very clear
how everything's laid out.
Even after watching the show for 30 years or more, I still don't
have quite the sense of what that space, how that space works.
Do you know what I mean?
Like where everything is.
It doesn't seem to be symmetrical, for instance.
And I think they learn from this set when they do the Voyager set
as well, which is just a bit not interesting.
I'm going to cancel the Tom Paris salamander toy for Christmas and
send you the Deep Space 9 technical manual instead, all right?
So you can understand everything for next time.
Okay.
Do we use the lift in this one?
I hope so.
Chuddering lift.
Oh, here she is.
You're being terrible hair.
A terrible, terrible ladyhead.
When she says Godforsaken place.
She sort of runs her hands for her hair, doesn't she?
Looking very haggard.
What I really like, though, is she finds a way, the 1st way of
hanging up, of slamming the phone down in Star Trek.
Because what are you supposed to do?
You're supposed to sort of tap yourself on the shoulder and stuff
and that's how you hang up a call.
So she actually smashes her hand on the desk in order to hang up
on him, which is just perfect.
It's this line where she says, because I have a bad habit of
telling people the truth, even when they don't want to hear it, and
you kind of think, oh, come on.
We just not.
Come on out.
We get to progress and duet by the end of the season.
They find her very...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, you know, like we can tell. like we don't need we don't need
her to say that.
In fact, it makes her a slightly annoying person to say that.
But she is really good.
And what I like about this too is that every not put off by her
and in fact slightly amused by her.
Do you know why that is?
No.
These scenes were reshaw.
So there's 2 scenes.
Their early scenes.
So this was an early seen shot where he played this, giving her
the aggression back.
And they looked at the rushes and went, no, lighting it up.
You're supposed to be coming in, a charming man. and look at him.
He's got a, he's taken the note.
He's got a big rye grin on his face.
Yeah, I really like it.
I really like it a lot.
I think there's, there are one or 2 scenes, 2 scenes that I think
are odd, and I will talk about them later.
There's one kind of little subplot here, which I find the beats of
it are odd, and I don't quite know why it's happening that way.
But I do like that.
And even there where he raises eyebrows and goes, yeah.
I think I'll follow her, you know.
Is the other one the one?
Oh, here's Nog.
Yeah, there's Nog.
Is the other one, the scene with Jakar?
What's the other one that they really shoot, do you know?
It's on memory alpha.
They do list both the scenes, yeah.
It's not like reshooting in caretaker, you know, where it's a
different lead actress.
It's just the same actor, giving a different performance.
Who's this fellow that Noggs hanging out with doing his feeding?
I think it's a makeup that we see quite a bit over the next 7
years.
I think he might be a euridion, you know. all got teeth coming out
of his face.
Oh, maybe, but the, yeah, maybe he is.
The Uridians are the guys in, oh, what is it, in birthright, isn't
it?
Yes, of course it is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, dear, look.
This is the 1st Odo morph effect.
Now, that hasn't dated so well.
But it was very cool at the time.
I was like, 0 my god, that man's a shapeshifter.
It can be anything he wants.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's a great idea for kids. don't you think?
Like, having a shapeshifter as part of the regular crew.
Look, I'm sure it worked a treat in Space 9, 1999 series 2.
They've taken all their tips from Freiburger here.
Can I say too?
So this is Renee and Armond for the 1st time in a pretty great
scene, I think.
And I think Renee is really good.
And I think his makeup is best.
You've said this before.
Well, because he looks more like a person, doesn't he?
Less like a slab of latex.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But it just it all looks older though, doesn't it?
Because you can see sort of the wrinkles in his face.
But that's okay.
I think that works for him as a character and because he is
older.
I mean, he is older than the rest of the regular cast, isn't he
Renee?
Like he's significantly older.
He's certainly one of the most experienced actors. and that's very
visible.
Oh, Nathan, this scene in a minute when they go into the security
office.
I love it.
What's the singer at the end?
Odo goes, do you know what?
I didn't think I was going to like him.
So great.
And he says it.
What he does is he says it to torment Quark.
It's just there.
They got it, haven't they?
Yeah, it's so good.
They're like, right.
This is our Spocken McCoy of Big Space nine.
That's exactly it.
It wasn't just a funny line.
It was a funny line that was doing something in the scene and
revealing the character. thought it was so good.
Oh, do you know what?
I need to talk about these transitions to the enterprise, right?
Because later on, I'll forget it when it happens.
There's a wonderful moment where the enterprise zooms off and
everyone said their goodbyes, yeah?
And then it's sort of like, da, da, da, da. all very jolly and
enterprisy.
And then it cuts to ops and it's really dark and the music and
it's almost making a deliberate tonal shift from one to the
other.
So what I think is odd here.
I think there are other things too.
When Picard leaves for the episode for the 1st time.
I think he's very definitely handing over. to Avery, like
absolutely, and we'll talk about that.
But I don't understand the dynamics of these 2 scenes.
So there's a 2 scenes between Picard and Cisco.
And in this scene, Cisco is angry at Picard, and Picard is
slightly on the back foot.
Yeah, because he was locutous and he can't deny it and he's also
aware of what happened to him and we're aware of that as Star Trek
fans as well.
And he's...
It felt like he was complicit.
They would have picked someone.
No, no, that's right.
But, I mean, that, you know, it still makes sense. you know we saw
what he went through.
Um, and he's really angry and stony faced and, and, and Pecan
tries to get through to him, but doesn't really, and then
eventually he just responds with aggression.
Do you know what I mean?
and says, I'm going to do my job.
In the meantime.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And like, I just, like, what is that?
I don't know what that is.
It doesn't enamour us to Cisco because we like, we like the card.
So and we've done a bit of work to make Cisco charming.
So why are we now making him a cunt?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then at the end, obviously he's been through a thing.
And so when we see the scene at the end, he's learning to move on
from, you know, the Saratoga and from Jennifer and so on.
And so he's no longer angry, but now he's on the back foot.
Do you know what I mean?
And Picants as well.
I don't know if I can ignore. your request to leave and all of
that sort of thing.
And I kind of, what is, why are we we doing this?
I think he should have just been more amiable.
Well, I don't know why they're circling around each other and what
the purpose of the hostility is, really.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, it just seems awkward.
I kind of get it here.
I just feel like at the end, it should have just been a more
interesting to watch.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It seems like the count in that same room.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm not quite sure why he does that.
You know, like I'm not quite sure why he does that.
I mean, you're showing a healed Cisco between these 2 scenes, but
I don't know quite what's going on with Pecan.
It's almost like Picard's been slighted.
So now the power shifted in his hands.
It just seems like why are these 2 men getting their dicks out?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, it just seems, you know, I think they're pushing the
conflict a bit too far.
They would learn to be more subtle this stuff.
Oh God, here's this scene.
I just love it I want to, we're rebuilding.
We need a community leader, and it's gonna be you, Quok.
He's so excited.
It's really fun.
The other thing that I thought was really good was talking about
the great Ferengi tradition of plea bargaining, which I think is
really great.
He doesn't say the 21st century American tradition of plea
bargaining.
He locates that as a Ferengi thing, and that's a great tradition
of of 20th century American culture and customs being located in
the Ferengi, the Ferengi, when they're introduced like hyper
capitalists from earlier than the 20th and 21st century, but
gradually they become known as sort of capitalists and staff.
And the way this show transcends that, embraces and then
transcends it, I think, is pretty amazing.
You know what makes this scene so satisfying is he does what he's
talking about here.
He does rebuild the station.
He does make it an effective place in the galaxy.
You know, like by the end of the station, it's a really important
place.
And he made good choices here.
It should have been Quork, right?
As the community leader, despite the fact that he tries to swindle
them every other week to comic effect.
There's a few times where he crosses the line, actually, where I'm
thinking, oh, would they have let him stay in that bar?
No, he had a contract.
Oh, this provisional government is far too provisional for my take
isn't it?
It's a really good one.
Yeah.
And I don't think he's overplaying any of this.
No.
He does like the laugh and stuff when when Cisco goes, you Quark
and then he does the big toothy laugh, and I kind of think, yeah
last hour post, calm down.
Poor boy, Nathan, who's got to spend the best years of his life in
a Bajoran.
I'm a father of myself is so...
I know what he must be going through.
But again, this is the opposite, you know, like, it's not Wesley.
We're from Starfleet.
We don't lie.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, he is slotting into the, he's slotting into the environment
and, and manipulating it and, and, you know, operating in some
degree on, and it's rules.
I didn't think I was going to like it.
That is such a fabulous line, isn't it?
And it does it so sincerely.
That almonds reaction?
It's perfect as well.
Like, almond's probably taken taken aback.
Like it does sell it.
Okay, I do prefer Kira now in sort of slightly less formal gear.
Yeah, but this is where she takes a top off like she does in
progress, remember?
Yeah.
Yeah. they sort of sorted her hair out a little bit there as
well.
It's not quiet, though.
It's very bad.
My favourite, your least favourite is my favourite.
It's series 7.
I love that hair.
Yeah, I mean, I like hair as everything but this hair, basically, I
think, is like the sort of aggressive lesbian hair that shouts for
the rest of the show.
That's what I always wanted. 80s lesbian.
Fabulous book.
She means business.
Yeah.
Well, they want a show, you see.
They're getting her tits out because they want a show.
She's not all, you know, she's still a woman.
Yeah.
But they don't fall, you know, like, and she does get to fall in
love and all that sort of thing.
They do all that sort of stuff, but that's not the super important
thing.
It's not like the other two.
You know, that like Star Trek the Next Generation had such a bad
history with its female lead.
So you lose Denise, you know, we lose gates, we're kind of
thinking of getting rid of Marina.
Like no one's very happy with them.
All these women about the clothes.
And you only have 2 of them here, but they're both really great
and they both become, you know, just absolute top tier
characters.
One of them or the other is usually central in every episode. you
know, like they have big roles.
It's a great.
We just did the homecoming, and she just said, this government
will be gone in a week, so will you.
What happens then?
civil war and that's exactly what happens at the end at the start
of season two.
Yeah, I was thinking that too, because a lot of this stuff is
setting up stuff that the show doesn't really run with, right?
And so they do do the provisional government thing. at the
beginning of the next season.
And we do eventually have the joining the Federation.
But the religion stuff gets put on the backbone, doesn't it?
Look, Nathan.
I know.
What's happened to Fajor?
Oh good.
There's rubble all about the place.
Normally it looks so tranquil.
Clean that up for future.
They sort of added up.
Oh, they're doing the zoom in, aren't they?
Just suggest it's, oh, and there's a bird flying past.
Oh, yeah, no, no, but also, you know, the 2 towers, as the camera
moved along in the 2 towers moved in relation to each other.
Like, that's three-dimensional.
It's not the usual match shot, where, you know, it's even better
than the one with Andra.
Do you know what I mean?
With the people running down the...
It's even better than the one with Andre.
It is great.
Oh, where she is.
Weeble, wobble, but that don't fall down.
I love Kia Parker.
She's great, isn't she?
Oh, charming, isn't it?
It's such a charming performance.
She's such a beautiful Italian woman as well. you know, like...
Does she just want out straight away?
don't actually know why.
Yeah I don't know.
Which just comes back for a session.
Do you remember when he has the dream in a session?
We saw with the Dejaras.
She comes back from that episode.
She is in that.
That's it.
After battle line.
She does this, then battle lines, then accession. just that sort
of cameo, yeah.
But, but, like all of this stuff kind of gets dropped in a way, you
have Kai Wynn, who is obviously a superb character and, you know
like an incredible performance and absolutely brilliant, and
explores religion allows them to explore sides of religion that
are particularly important in American context, i.e. horrible
horrible religious leaders, with wicked political agendas.
They had amazing foresight into the future, wasn't it?
Yeah, yeah, no, they had them already.
Oh my god, look at that monk just picking up rocks from the side.
We're rebuilding too, you know.
But, um, say again, he does that little sort of, hmm, I wonder
what I'll do.
He does a little sort of eyebrows that sort of arched eyebrows.
Okay, I'm going along with this.
Because I love how he's uncomfortable.
He's initially uncomfortable with Camille touching his ear with
Kaya Parker touching his ear.
And then he realises it would be impolite to, you know, make her
take her hand away, but he's still awkward and uncomfortable about
it.
I don't know.
So this, Nathan.
Every time they feel a set with candles.
I'm like, why don't you light like this all the time?
Because this is just stock case set 72?
Start number one, yeah.
So, so I think that also the scene here where she divines what's
wrong with him, in some degree, she says, I can't give you what
you can't give yourself.
Solutions come from within.
And then there's the scene later where the prophet as her says
exactly the same thing.
Look for solutions from within commander.
And that's what she does.
Do you know what I mean?
That is what he does.
But it just goes to show how in tune with the prophets she is.
You know, her profit character says the same thing that she does.
It's so well done.
I think if Pucker, it stuck around, you know, we would have joined
Bajor would have joined the Federation by the end of Series 7, but
Kai Wynn always had a mucky fingers in all the politics, didn't
she?
So good.
Look, we're outside on the beach.
I know.
And it's a meat cute as well.
How beautiful does Avery looks like?
I saw his arms a minute ago.
Oh, actually, and Jennifer.
That smile of his too.
He does it with Jake.
There's the most broad smile at the end when he sees Jake after he
gets back to the station.
But the smiling here.
Um, you know, like on 2 levels as well, doesn't it?
The fact that this is introducing the profits, but also it's
exploring his backstory, right?
And adding weight to death at the start.
So clever.
We get to see through these orb visions we get to see how their
relationship goes.
So we see the day of the proposal.
We see they're meeting for the 1st time.
We see the day that he proposes.
We see Jake being born very briefly, I think.
And because we'd only seen Jennifer dead.
Like we had only seen her dead.
Yeah, we didn't, you know, there was no scene of him leaving in
the morning or anything like that.
Now we see just why he fell for it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, I love seeing this amount of flesh on display. very unusual
for Star Trek.
She's a great location.
Isn't it?
We don't see beaches enough in Star Trek, do we?
No.
Given we're in fucking America, for God's sake.
Is this the beach where Janet's button is located in the good
place?
I kind of like to think it is. very possible.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think Voyager goes to the beach twice, doesn't it?
In Futures End, and then there's a season 7 episode with Berkeley
where him and Marina are hanging out on the beach, loads of cream
on their nose.
A junior officer.
Man.
And then he kind of realises, yeah, I was a junior opposite
because what they had 15 years together, he does say in dialogue
like Jake's 13 or something.
So they have 15 years of marriage.
I don't know how old he is at this point.
I think he's sort of late 30s, mid to late 30s, is that right?
So, are you worrying about the dialogue right now?
Did you see how much Avery Brooks was packing in those trunks?
I did.
I was wondering if you were going to mention it.
It's got nothing to be ashamed of.
And he's got smile.
Oh, my God.
Yeah, see, my father was a gourmet chef, so he is dead.
No machine stew.
It must be fantastic, you know, well, seems to love it.
Look how charmed she is by him, even though he's being a weirdo.
He's being a flash weirdo. to say yes.
Oh, probably be sorry.
And then that.
Oh, that's a terribly sad line, isn't it?
I'll probably be sorry.
Don't you think?
Oh, and then he gets her snatched away.
They meet you and then she's snatched away by the prophet.
I love the metaphor as well, Tear of the Prophet.
I mean, that's a great, great line.
Oh, now this is Exposition City now, is it?
Nine orbs?
like this one.
But it is also, there's something slightly weird about setting up
this mystical thing. which is not really where we go.
Um, you know, it's, it's, it's, Strangely Worlds did it a little
bit in its most recent season where, you know, there were mythical
things from the dawn of time and and things to chase and a sort of
sort of Indiana Jones sort of style, you know, caper of some
sort.
Do you know what I mean?
Like an adventure where you have to find an ancient object or
whatever.
And so that looks like where we're going here.
And it isn't where we go, is it?
The orbs disappear from the show a bit.
Yeah, well, that sort of turn up every time we want a time travel
and things like that.
You know, they're very useful plot devices every now and again.
But what I love, though, is we get our space mystery now, don't
we?
We're looking for the celestial temple and obviously we do it TNG
style with a ton of techno babble in a minute when Dax comes in to
sort of find the area that it's at.
And even then you think, okay, that's going to be the big sort of
idea for this episode, but no, we moved the station too, and it
becomes a mainstay of the show.
So, and it is a bit of a cheat.
Do you know what I mean?
It's kind of like, well, we can't go anywhere, but we'll have a
thing that brings everything to us so we don't have to go
anywhere.
And it is a story generating idea.
But what they do, of course, is they turn it into a thing that
actually affects the overall plot and introduces the gamma
quadrant and exposes us to the dominion.
When Avery was talking about taking on the par.
One of the things he says in those early interviews is it's so
exciting.
The storytelling possibilities, you know, we're there by this
gateway to space where all of the crazy dramatic things can come
to us.
And I'm like, actually yeah, that is a great idea.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it is just the kind of reverse of Star Trek.
So it's to ensure that lots of things can happen.
And certainly that's how the show plays out for the 1st few
years.
But you have your cake and eat it because you get the
serialisation under consequences as well.
But, but also it becomes the thing that makes the Dominion, I
think.
Do you know what I mean?
And then that's what that's about.
It's no longer what crazy alien is going to come through.
Do you know what I mean?
Like and bring a board game with it this week.
It's it's...
You want to talk about strong female women?
The female shapeshifter.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I want the Cardassians exterminated.
She says in the last episode.
Gosh, this one's got our breasts out here.
It's an awful lot happening in quarks here, isn't it?
There's lots going on.
It's not the lighting they land on because it's very sort of misty
and dark.
Because there's smoke and all of that sort of thing.
I mean, generally the station, you know, goes towards less gritty
more Star Trek lighting, a little bit clearer, more key light.
Do you know what I mean?
Like just all a little bit slightly less interesting, I think.
But it's, you know, I love the drawing, such a wonderfully
spiritual people, but they make a dreadful ale.
Never trust an ale from a god-fearing beach. so good.
Such a great.
This is Michael Pillar.
Michael Pillar wrote this one.
What a gift he was to Star Trek.
So good.
It's so good.
They really are with the promenade and with Quarks and with Odo
Security Office.
That's where they're really going for the Space Western, isn't
it?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So here we have 2 new characters arriving.
Neither of them fully formed at this point.
No, no.
Although, Bashir is so naive in this, isn't it?
It really cute.
He does that English embarrassed guy comedy.
It's very Hugh Grant.
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's what I think that's what that is.
So he does the or maybe a drink. which I think is very cute.
That's really cute.
No, it is seen Rukira is the best.
You'll find them are pleasant, simple people.
My favourite thing is where she says, come on, come and talk to
time to be here, and he just goes, yes, sir.
That could be you, Gron, couldn't it?
It's kind of sexy and kind of adorable.
Like he's really into it.
You know as well.
Do you know, right?
I'm going to tell you, 2 actors that auditioned for Cisco and were
in the running. you ready for this?
Anthony Hidd.
I think I knew that. and Peter Capaldi.
I'll imagine that. unbelievable.
Imagine being Kapaldi.
They went for the right jobs, but they're both great actors.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I know, it's superb.
I'm a massive fan of Capoldia.
I just think he's incredible.
This scene you would never have on TNG in a 1000000 years.
That's because the aliens aren't allowed to be alien in TNG.
They were all behaving a sort of cute American style way.
Yeah.
Major, I had my choice of any job in the fleet, you prick.
Real frontier, isn't it?
It's so great.
I mean, I don't know why she didn't take her gun out and shoot his
foot.
But this is typical Star Trek.
This is Star Trek sort of federation stuff.
Do you know what I mean?
Like this is not an unusual way of expressing yourself and then
you have one of our regulars as an alien who's going to be
patronised by these federation.
TNG series one, isn't it?
Yeah, exactly.
And she just goes, this wilderness is my home.
Yeah, yeah.
And he goes, uh, uh, uh, uh.
Actually, maybe they should have done a bit more with that.
It would have been fun.
Instead, they just turn him into a sex pest for a season.
Yeah, yeah, that's no good.
I think that is no good.
Now this is the one scene where I chipped out a little bit.
There's a lot of techno babble in this scene.
So, yeah, so it is a little bit too much, isn't it?
Because we just heard him hearing that and now he's explaining it
to her.
We could have just come in at the end of that conversation, we
would have known what he was going to say.
I like this, though.
I was happy when I learned you'd accepted this assignment.
I've been worried about you, which again, you know, like, like it
really sells because that's the one thing we know about him
already is he's not okay.
Um, and having her concerned for him I think is really great.
I love this idea.
It's reaping rewards now, but it certainly will go on to reap
rewards of the idea of taking the trio, which was established in
TNG, and then having a previous host have a relationship with our
lead character, and he now has to get to know a new version of
that character that he falls in love with as much.
That's a really smart character choice I think.
I think too, it just makes her a little bit more, it does make her
a little bit more interesting.
It's the way that, you know, Picard and Crusher have a backstory
as well.
Oh, and I guess Deanna and Dump and Riker.
I mean, this is more interesting.
All the information we learn about Curzon is that he was a drunk
and a sex pest himself, you know, and a fine diplomat.
I'm not getting that from this man, are you?
Well, he's dead now.
Do you remember when Renee plays him in facets?
fabulous.
Give me a drink, you know?
But I I think it's I think giving him a young woman as a friend as
well, like giving and giving him a confidant, like giving him a
mentor, but, you know, making her a beautiful young woman, I think
you know, that's a brilliant choice.
But look where they get.
We just did trials and tribulations recently where she was
orgasming all over the past and he was going, Dax, come on, let's
go.
Well, I mean, it's great how because she's so beautiful.
Like she's stunningly beautiful.
And so making her just sexy and confident and, you know, she's
someone who's been a man and and so she's, you know, a little bit
more kind of sexually predatory and stuff. all wonderful.
I think she's terrific.
She's really.
Do you know the story of her breakdown during the making of the
pilot?
Yeah, so look, I mean, I say breakdown. quite strong.
But she broke down into tears because she just couldn't get her
head around all the Tetla babble.
She said it was like learning another language and she just
couldn't do it.
And she had so many scenes with Avery Brooks, who was given this
sort of performance with great gravity and she just felt like at
sea compared to him.
She breaks down into tears and pulls him to one side and she goes
you need to help me.
Like I'm really, I'm lost here.
And apparently he goes from being quite cold, which he can be on
set and a massive smile broke on his face and he said to her, what
do you need from me?
And from that point on, they were the best of friends.
I mean, he shut off the set during rejoined when he directed that
when she had the kiss with Lenara Khan.
Like, they were tight.
But I like the fact that she was happy to be vulnerable and then
oh, hang on, I'm talking all over Picard and O'Brien saying
goodbye.
I mean, I think this seems okay.
We need to do it, don't we?
And it is slightly odd because he, you know, we have this.
It's not quite the midway point, but we have this point where the
2 new characters are arriving and and, you know, O'Brien's here
already.
And so saying this goodbye now is slightly odd, particularly
dialogue.
He goes, what is it?
Oh, it's my favourite transport.
Number four.
No, because it is always transformed.
You're going to think, why do we have more than one transporter
room given that we always say transporter room three?
Is this the episode?
Is it a DS not an episode where he goes, do you know how bored I
was waiting for something to break down in a transporter room?
Here, I've got 15 jobs to do at once.
I mean, you cut to him and he's just standing there.
That's the job, right?
You just stand there waiting to push the button.
Oh, so he's the enterprise going off.
It's not the midway point yet, but the Enterprise going off looks
amazing against that.
And it is a very sort of jolly bit of music as it goes.
And then it goes, look how everyone's lit and she goes to
Kardassians.
Look, they're all lit from below.
Yeah, yeah, that'd be great.
That, isn't it?
And just everyone's on a different level, but not in a crap way
like on the Enterprise D. The camera's moving.
It can move in on them.
But I can imagine just that transition there.
There's a lot of people that love TNG, the tone of it that were
like, what is this?
Like, yeah, it's better television maybe. but it's it's not our
lovely TNG family.
I also think that's sudden, cunt to like the ship, and then
suddenly, um, do you can't arrive?
Do you know what I mean?
That's not a normal kind of narrative cut.
Do you know what I mean?
You would cut to another scene and then to give him time to
arrive.
He just arrives.
God, they got rid of those head things, hey, from the wounded.
One of my favourite things, one of my favourite lines is when
Cisco says to him, you're welcome to drop by whenever you like, you
know, about the, and he's being funny.
Drop by any time you're feeling homesick and he's making a joke
and then very seriously.
Gary goes, you're very gracious, commander.
And it's just like, no, no.
It's actually in a way.
You're very gracious as if to say, I'm going to jump over that
desk in a minute and tear your head off.
I really liked it.
I thought it was kind of like it's like Cisco is telling a joke
but he doesn't quite get it because he's very self-serious.
Like he can't imagine anyone gently mocking him, you know.
Oh, I love Ducat spelling out the danger of that situation.
You're far from the Federation fleet.
You've got poor defence systems.
And yes, that's good. that's where the drama is Yeah, yeah, yeah
yeah.
Yeah.
And it's not quite where we land either, is it?
Like, he is around from time to time in the early seasons.
His next appearance, his duet, and then he's not, he's in a couple
about 3 episodes of season 2, and then he starts being a semi
regular in season three.
I think they just realised a lame amount is gold.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And civil defence is that one?
He turns up.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, it's not going to work, you know.
Majakira.
You're not going to impress her with your posturing.
He goes, Garak.
And you, a married man.
Oh, I bloody love these characters.
Just so good.
That mean, look, then.
What's that face that Avery's pulling there?
He'll never do that again.
No thank god.
Get grief.
Oh, what I love, though, about this bit is now you see them for
the 1st time working together as a crew to get Odo into the
Cardassian ship, but you think Quarks in on it, isn't he?
He's like, I think it is.
It's not made explicit, but I think that's how they play it
straight up them, as if to say, right, that's done.
Do your bit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's really good, isn't it?
And I like how you don't see them setting it up as well.
You know, Star Trek the next generation would have trusting people
to figure things out.
Exactly.
Outrageous.
What sort of Star Trek is this?
Oh, I like that.
Debbie, yes.
He saw the celestial temple of the prophets.
So are they slightly embarrassed about this?
Like, do they not?
So we don't see the profits again until accession, is that right?
Uh, no, no, no, they're in series two.
There's the episode where Dax has the initial argent come along
and they go into the...
Oh, no, that's just going into the wormhole, isn't it?
Yeah, I think you, 0 no, profit motive.
We did it.
You remember?
What went in there?
That's right.
And he has his saying where they kind of do this again, but with
Quark.
From a session onwards, it's a couple of times a year and then
obviously in the last season, they're a big, big players.
Yeah, yeah.
In a way that I think is slightly crappy, I have to say.
What in which one?
Well, I just think that the profits versus the par rates just
becomes 2 groups of states.
You know, like it's Jake and Kira shooting out beams of energy
stomach at each other.
This ain't Marvel, all right.
You ain't got the money.
Yeah.
I think that's less interesting than what this is.
Oh, God, she's got a new way of having terrible hair in this
scene.
The sooner you get that cut off.
I wonder if Nanar just cut it off and she went, well, sorry, you
can't wait for it to grow back to shoot, can you?
I really like as well, you and me talk all the time about the
writers of Deep Space 9 looking back and going, right, let's use
that.
And a lot of the stuff here they do use, right?
It's a pivotal point in sacrifice of angels.
The, um, the prophet's coming in and saving the day.
That's established here.
The stuff with Cisco and Sarah, they look back to this stuff and
they use it to make that make sense later on.
So I think in terms of an influential pilot where the ideas are
taken on and developed, GC is probably the best pilot in that
respect.
I guess I guess we hint at sort of geopolitical things by having
us near Cardassian space, so having the Federation and Cardassia
there, having Cardassia still interested in the station to some
degree, but, you know, the thing that starts to happen, like
there's no hint of the Dominion yet, except, I guess, in the
moment of Odo's backstory, which leaves that open, doesn't it?
Oh, dear, oh, it is so funny.
In the interviews, he goes, well, they can never, ever find out in
the early interviews.
They never find out where Odo comes from because that's the end of
my character.
Oh, if you only knew.
I mean that becomes the best running plot, I think, of all.
So that terrible, terrible special effect.
Maybe you're right.
The Kirkman sort of chopped meat look.
Yeah, yeah, raw chicken.
Oh, I meant to say, sure.
You know Maggie was in that scene earlier.
She was the transporter chief, you know, Maggie, the office side
that's in about 5 or 6 next generation episodes.
She plays an admiral in Picard.
They gave her a row in Kurtzman Trek.
Yeah, it's tremendous. happiness in it as well.
Finally, she goes, I'm not stuck at consoles.
So this is more or less the halfway point, isn't it?
So in the 2 part version, which is kind of, I think, the only part
of the only version available on streaming, this is where the sort
of 2nd part happens, which means that we really sideline Avery, in
a way, we sideline him, like we separate him from the main
action.
So he gets to have his own plot, which is about, you know, a very
important thing, you know?
I think that's deliberate though, isn't it?
Our statement here is you can have your bangs and whistles and
space problems and aliens.
This is a character show and we will give as much focus to these
characters.
But I do think that they do a really good job with the space stuff
here.
Oh, yes, it goes in a massive bubble, Nathan, and flies through
space.
So good.
It looks so great.
It's one of my favourite special effects.
Wait list, don't you?
Yeah, it's really good.
Yeah.
And it's a very Star Trek moment where sort of Dax leans over and
goes, what if we put it into an inertial bubble or something?
It just like, yeah, this is still Star Trek.
We're still on.
When they start blowing the crap out of the station.
There are some serious explosions on that promenade.
I'll tell you what.
It's not like TNG where you usually just see a few sparks coming
out the wall, you know?
The whole floor erupts at one point.
What do you think happened to all that latinum?
Did they put in the bag?
Yeah.
Was he just a bag?
Yeah, he was just a bag.
I like it when he's a rat.
He does it a couple of times, actually.
But how does that work?
He can sort of change his math.
Apparently.
Okay.
It's an alien. very dense.
He's very dense rat.
He's very hard to become. 70 kilogram rat.
Black star massa dense, yeah.
Okay.
Now this feels very TNG now, doesn't it?
When they're in the runabout, sort of looking about space for...
But what I like is that we're in a star system.
Do you know what I mean?
You know how we talked about in when we did the 1st duty, how
exciting it was to have Saturn and me mass and stuff and, you know
we're in a in a star system.
And I don't think they want to pin down the Bajor system
particularly.
You know, there are the, there are habitable moons in there, we
discover and stuff like that.
There are some other planets, but where they don't have a sort of
properly pin it down just to leave things open, I think.
Um, but the idea that there are ships, sometimes some of us are on
ships, some of us are on the station, gives it a scale, gives it a
sort of a movie style scale, and I like that.
What does enterprise?
Sorry, TNG happy.
You were either on the ship or you're on a planet, right?
That's right.
That's the 2 options.
Now, I know this has dated a bit, but I just was bewitched by the
wormhole at the time.
Oh, it looks fantastic.
The sort of the weird sort of puddly water that's going on.
Yeah, yeah.
In all sorts of dimensions.
I think the aperture, as you open, you know, as it opens and
closes, looks incredible.
It's dynamic, isn't it?
It's really good It's open.
But it's not just that it's a like computer generated effect.
It's a beautifully designed one. like it looks terrific.
It just... going to use this a lot, chaps.
So we need to make it good.
Yeah.
Yeah, because it doesn't appear in the opening credits here
because they don't want to spoil it, do they?
But it does appear, actually, does it appear in part two?
No, because they think it appears here for the 1st time by which
time it is part two.
One regret, and I would always say this.
I mean, I'm so pleased they moved the station to the wormhole.
I just wish the wormhole was closer to Bajor because the 2
episodes where the state, we go back in time to the station around
Bajor, we've got sunlight coming through the windows and it just
looks great, yeah.
But it's a budgetary measure, isn't it?
Yeah Like every scene internally, Caprice?
Yeah, yeah.
And and also fill the fill the windows with a planet.
Do you know what I mean?
Instead of just...
Did you see that earlier through the enterprise window?
The planet was about the size of Picard's head.
The scale was so bad.
Oh, you know, it just depends on how close they are.
They couldn't do, you know, they didn't do a convincing cloud
cover or anything like that.
It didn't look all that gray.
Um, but...
Oh my god, we're doing TOS style wobbleabout.
Are they wobbling the whole set?
No, they're just wobbling the.
Sometimes they wobble with sand, remember?
I think one of those runabouts must be on a gimble or something
right?
Like, come on, there.
Certainly.
The very little shuttle pod things in TNG, I don't want to say
it.
Like the beginning of PowerPlay.
Remember, where you've got it?
Oh, you've got it down as breasts, Marina's breasts jiggling up
and down.
Actually, we go to a place right now, don't we?
It looks just like that power play planet.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I bet they because obviously Avery is superimposed on that and
Terry is genuinely in the park.
I wonder if they just superimposed the power play planet over
him.
So, so again, like it hadn't realised, like I don't think I had
realised originally the reason that Avery sees it like this and
that Dax sees it the other way is, of course, this is the world
that Avery inhabits.
And she's very centred. and beautiful. stormy and miserable.
It's got gray clouds overhead that's where he is now and she, you
know, for her, the world is completely different. come on Season 6
should be walking out.
It'll be a debauched pottery, all she's going on everywhere
wouldn't it?
Well, the hot man.
Where's Malcolm from Where the Warrior?
Go back to this park again and again, but it is very beautiful.
See, but you see what I mean about the bunched up around his, like
his bum looks terrible in that outfit.
I just think it's not very flattering.
Usually for me, I wasn't looking at Apron's bomb.
But again, age 13, I can see myself watching this has its cutting
from the park to the...
What is this?
And then this, I think this is a great effect of the profit coming
in and zooming between them in a minute.
But also just the way we flick between them, like in her lighting
changes.
So she's in the park for a second and then she's here and she can
see things here and the light flickers in the background flickers
and stuff.
It's really well done. serious editing there, isn't it?
Oh, we'll talk about editing later.
Yeah, I think it's really good. think it's great.
Actually, we'd have to.
It's coming up in a second.
The fact that they would have had to have shot all those profit
scenes in all of those different locations whilst they were
filming other scenes and then put it together.
So it's fluidic and it makes dramatic sense.
That is some great work on the part of the editor.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it is, in a sense, it is, yeah, this sense, do you know
what I mean?
When we're flashing between her being in his landscape in her own
landscape.
It's weird, isn't it?
We do like a bit of weird in style.
It is really good.
And that's what it's doing too.
That was the other thing that I think it's doing.
It is making it clear that this is still Star Trek in the sense
that, you know, there's omnipotent alien entities and weirdness
and, you know, virtual worlds and all of that sort of thing.
We're still expecting that.
I found really scary when I was younger.
There's light coming up through the cracks and then all of the
light bleeding out and losing Cisco in it.
Yeah, yeah.
Because I just couldn't comprehend what was happening.
I was like, what is going on?
Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it?
I've lost control of this episode.
What's happening?
Yeah.
I mean, actually, and they keep referring to that visual every
time we go to the profits in the future.
You always have somebody standing in a white space right up the
door.
The light is so bright, but it's covering them.
Like it's making them less visible as well.
Until you get to um, Cassidy and Ben in the last episode where
they won a romantic moment.
So they're picture perfect in that scene.
Yeah, I think like it, Penny Johnson.
Ah, yeah, yeah, she'll be along at some point.
It's amazing isn't it?
Another great woman. yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Keiko.
Oh my word.
Yeah, she gets a mention and she's obviously they know she's going
to be in it because she's agreed to be in it for a bit.
She's in the 2nd episode setting up the score, actually.
Rosalind, are you free for the pilot?
I'm doing a movie, love.
Sorry.
She's doing a lot of movies at this point, isn't she?
Yeah, she was a very popular actress at the time.
Yeah.
That was the height of her kind of career, I think.
So tell me now, why, why were you so impressed with this this
time?
So what I think, I think initially we get the who are you thing
and then we get these shots.
We don't quite know what's happening.
And we get this initial reaction where he's confused.
But then later on, once he's talking to a series of them, the
carts are between, like these carts are still really abrupt, but
he stops being surprised.
So what they don't decide to do is have him react to suddenly
being in a new place talking to a completely new person.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, we just get the initial sort of thing where this is weird
but now he can just interact with them, and he carries on a
conversation throughout, like, with different people answering him
and asking him questions without being phased by them, and without
kind of, you know, without that sort of startling thing.
And so he suddenly kind of adapts and he's talking to them
normally.
And what I think is really good is, of course, and we've said this
before, we choose the right people to say the particular things.
And you have the Kai Opaka prophet saying exactly the things that
Kai Parker had said.
But what I detected this time is a relationship between him and
the Jennifer Prophet.
Yeah, then why do you exist here?
But she's the 1st to understand it.
Do you know what I mean?
She's the 1st one to understand what's going on.
And what I think is really brilliant too, is they don't understand
time.
He has to explain it to them, but they're the ones who work out.
What the problem with him is that the problem is, although he
talks about linear time.
That's not how he's experiencing time at all because every time he
closes his eyes, he's back there in that cabin looking at
Jennifer.
And like it's so good.
Like, it's so good that they're, you know, it's not the, will
teach us this human concept you call kissing.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, it's not that.
He's explaining time to them, but then they explain it back to him
and they teach him something, that they discover from him, but
that he's unable to, so they don't sweep in and solve the
problem.
He, he tells them the thing, but they, they learn from it and
reflected back to him.
And I just think it's so good.
And I think, I think there's a moment where he talks to Jennifer
and he tells her about touch, how important touches and how humans
as corporeal beings find it pleasurable.
And then later when he's really distressed, Jennifer reaches out
and touches his face at one and I just thought it was so touching
and so clever.
Well she's the one that says back to him, doesn't she?
The sound of children playing.
Yeah, really trying to understand.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's really good.
She's great in that.
And I just thought it was good.
Within that as well, he gets to reinstate the Star Trek ideal of
going out there and exploring things and that's beautifully
scripted as well.
The development of that sequence from him being completely lost
and not understanding, to figuring out how it's all working, to
then him educating them about what humanity is all about, to them
healing him or helping him to heal himself.
That's an incredible development.
And it's all done with such a visually arresting style of cutting
back and forth to all of those different locations.
But if you're not looking carefully, it just looks like a bunch of
random shit happening, but it's just very, very well sort of
thought through and very well written, I think.
There might just be one or 2 what is this?
is too many.
Well, I was going, figure it out, guys.
My favourite one is where the guy says, what is this?
And he says, I thought you'd say that or something.
I was afraid you'd say that, which I thought was really good.
But it's good dialogue, right?
I mean, we don't often praise 90s.
It's trek for good dialogue.
I did love that bit when Odo says I need to come along.
It could be the answers to everything.
That set, the top of the set with the, you know, with the windows
of the habitat ring and stuff, like it just looks so good.
It just looks so amazingly good.
Yeah, so you get Picard being adversarial, the cutest being
adversarial, the the baseball player.
I mean, the camera doesn't stop moving.
They're on location for most of this stuff.
So they could do like some interesting camera work during these
scenes as well.
Oh, it's just brilliant.
Yeah.
But it's it's how it's edited together to make you have such a
emotional connection with what they're talking about.
I think that takes real skill.
Kevin, this is piecemeal. bit shot in all kinds of, in different
days with different actors.
It's so clever.
It's really well done, I think.
And I think every kind of ties it all together.
You know, like just because of the way that he just continues
through from moment to moment, there's a real sort of thread
through it.
I think it's good.
I don't know if you can understand.
I see her like this every day every time I close my eyes.
I see her like this.
I actually think it's a little bit of a shame that she's sort of
fairly decorously asleep.
I can understand.
You know what I mean?
Like, that is super upsetting, but, you know, there's no blood.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's just like, yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, and obviously, Sue Rock, it does get the absolute the funniest
line.
You value your ignorance of what is to come.
But that's brilliant.
Like, that's brilliant.
And the, like I said before, this is also the show.
It's about Star Trek.
You know, that the unknown is what defines us, that we explore the
galaxy and we explore our lives.
I think both of those are great lines.
So that's talking about the show, which is about space problems
and about character.
And it's talking about them making the show.
They don't know where they're going or where they're going to end
up and that's exciting.
Um, it's, it's terrific.
But it's never a guess where DS9 would have ended up at this
point.
But boy, what a journey.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's amazing, isn't it?
But they're prefiguring it here, I think.
We never would have guessed we would have got to the planet
Meridian, would we?
like a dune in space.
I love, I love that field that's like, it's almost like liquid.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it's not fully formed and it's like sparking and fizzing and
stuff.
And then it just snaps into existence.
Do you hear what he said?
Partial shield.
Did you hear that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And they've just got nothing, have they?
And I love how they've craftily improvised their way out of this
very dangerous situation in the 2nd half.
Well, um, and remember, of course, we go back to it in, um, in Way
of the Warrior, where the Klingons say, oh, it's just what, thorium
shadows or something like that.
Actually, no.
Not this time.
Those fucking phases and photo on top, videos, come shooting out
of the upper films.
I mean, it's all the last lines of the scenes in this.
I think Michael Peter has a gift for it where he goes, computer
you and I need to have a little talk.
And in fact, we did it in the Forsaken as well, didn't we?
Yeah, it was a terrible time with the computer in that, wasn't
it?
Yeah.
Or it has its baby.
Remember that worked in emissary?
Maybe we'll do a bit more of that.
We've got some time to fill in this episode.
What I love as well, and I don't know how you're going to feel
about this, but I think it's very clever and unpatronizing that
they make the profits such an obscure and different alien race
that I can understand how a race of spiritual people would
conceive them as good.
Yeah, because time, because they appear at different times in the
timeline, and that's manifestations of God, isn't it?
Then that's because they don't exist in linear time.
I think they make religion work in Star Trek in a way that it
never has before.
God doesn't exist in linear time.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, like he doesn't exist in linear time.
He experiences everything at the same time.
Well, this is what people who know him say anyway.
No, he's due after you're gone.
Oh, right.
Julian does spend a bit of time on the bridge and I'm not quite
sure why.
And they've taken him here.
Why exactly?
I don't know.
Doesn't he go?
Yes, or something at the end when they win.
No, he doesn't he do the yes, sir. when she says to me a hero.
And we had that bit.
Have we passed it?
I think we have.
Oh, this is great.
To go to car.
Warmhole?
What worm was that?
We strongly suggest you don't proceed.
They've been swallowed up by it, all right?
Yeah.
Well, again, and it's Picard gets to deliver the line.
You know, I do think that they're, you know, their former prefect
or something being dragged, towed through the wormhole by one of
our runabouts. uh, you know, made them decide not to keep
climbing.
So funny, Nathan, isn't it, that they fought at this point that
the runabouts were an exciting design.
And it only takes them 2 years and they go, maybe we'll upgrade
this a bit to the defiant.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, they use one in, in, uh, what's it, timescape, don't
they?
We do get to see one.
The greatest laugh you and I have ever howled out, and untitled
Star Trek project, was during the two-parter in season 5, um, in
Purgatory Shadow of Bayern Furno's Light.
At the end, you know, where they think there's going to be a big
battle and all the Romulan ships appear and then it cuts to ops
and Cisco goes, launch the runabouts.
Like, what the fuck are they going to do for God's sake?
They're like the canaries in the war, you know, send them in
first.
So this here's part of this thing where Cisco is explaining to
Prophet Jennifer about his relationship with Jennifer and why she
was important.
And there's that thing where he says, we can't go back in time to
get something we left behind or to get what we left behind.
Do you know what I mean?
Which is the a prefiguring of the final episode's title.
And she just goes, I can't believe it.
It's impossible that anyone...
We believe inconceivable that anyone could live like this.
And that's it.
It is.
Do you know what I mean?
Someone vanishes into your past and then they're gone forever.
It's inconceivable that anyone could live like that.
But we're also seeing these beautiful moments in Cisco's life as
well.
It's all great character building too.
When Jake, when they decided to have Jake, when Jake was born.
It's just fab.
Each day affects the nest.
Oh, I couldn't even start to begin describing a linear time to
somebody that doesn't understand it.
He does a great job.
Yeah, yeah, it's great.
And then looking across at them.
And I do like like both couples in the scene.
So the flashback couple of Cisco and Jennifer, in normal light, and
then we look across and we see the glowing gold version of them in
the background, we even pull focus between them.
It's really good.
So he's probably 18000000 here, can't you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But remember we discovered that he's taking them to these places.
You know, he says, why do you keep bringing me back here?
And they say, no, no, you're bringing us here.
Um, you know, so he, these are important times to him.
The reason that they're being shown to the prophets is not because
the prophets are choosing them and the kids.
How are performers here?
That's...
Where she touches a leap.
No, the real Jennifer.
And then you cut to the other one and it's just a little bit odd
and she's trying to understand.
It's so different isn't it?
Do you know what I mean?
We do that and he's stricken and she goes, what's the kiss about?
And then he explains it to her and then that comes back.
I think it's beautiful, but she doesn't say, what is this?
You just stop the human thing you call kissing.
But it is also like we do that when we watch people do things, we
imitate them.
Do you know what I mean?
We have those sort of mirror neurons that and we kind of we
imitate what people do, what we see people do.
Now we back here.
I like it when he gets angry.
What is the point of bringing me back here to this?
Yeah.
We don't bring you here.
You bring us here.
I think it's really good He brings himself here all the time.
Could be quite pony, because it's it's, it is sort of um, Trek
Psych 101. using all of this visual metaphor for to show his
pain.
But I just think it's really delicately done.
I think so too.
This.
Why do you exist here?
And he thinks, what do you mean?
I lived through this.
I exist here.
You don't have linear time, but why exist here?
No, she says, no, you exist here.
This is where you exist.
Not that you were here at some and therefore it's part of your
linear existence.
This is where you live.
This is where you are.
And I do love her in the bikini stepping out of the shitty CGI
flame, isn't it?
Yeah.
Well, again, they're just like they're stressing the weirdness.
It is still Star Trek.
Yeah, yeah.
I know we're talking about feelings a lot, but it is still Star
Trek.
Oh, dear.
What are they attempting to do here in the runabout?
Oh, this is where the wormhole blows up, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Are they just going to get Cisco and that's it, really?
They're going to rescue him?
Odo's face. my god.
Yeah, I just think that slathering extra makeup on was a bad
idea.
Well, Nana, you're in charge of the show now.
Yeah, yeah, he's in a thing.
And and so something is harming them, but then that goes away in a
line of dialogue at the end in the captain's commander's log or
whatever.
Yes, we were sort of dismiss that, don't we?
It's a bit like the force of nature twist.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We don't want to do that.
We don't want us to be stuck of...
We want people to go back and forth through the passage.
You know, that's why we have it there.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, that's it's bringing aliens to us.
You have no responsibility for the consequences of your actions.
No, but then he explains because how we do that because they say
how do you take responsibility for your actions?
And he kind of goes, well, we see patterns and we and we judge
what likely consequences are, but we also accept there could be
any consequence.
I had never, ever thought about time like that.
Like, I can still, I know I keep going back to me at 13.
I just never thought I'd never seen it explained in such an
interesting way and I don't know, it was just making me look at
things. was revolutionising how my brain was working.
That may sound like hyperbole, but there we are.
No, because when you're a kid, you haven't made any big
decisions.
You know, you don't get to make...
Excuse me?
I have to choose between the turtles, cards and the Doctor Who
cards, all right?
yeah that is pretty rough.
Okay.
I love this.
Okay.
And one of the reasons that I love it, one of the things that I
think they do the right thing is make the baseball mid-20th
century so that it reads like the past to us as well as reading
like the past to Cisco.
So rather than, you know, having in a baseball team in the 1990s
that we interact with, look at what everyone's wearing, look at
the truck in the background, everything's, it's like the 1950s or
something and they're picking the things out.
I never noticed the cars in the background before.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it's early.
David, I've watched this a lot.
But I love that.
I think that's always a really good choice and this show does that
quite a bit.
I think, you know, making the early 20th century the past so that
we get to enjoy it as the past as well.
But also, I just think baseball's a brilliant, as a brilliant
metaphor.
They never let it go.
It's so great.
It's Narise, do you want to come to a baseball game with me in an
episode where he nearly dies in her arms?
It's so lock and the 9 are fighting against each other.
Do you know what I mean?
It's he leaves the baseball at the end of a call to arms to say
he's coming back.
You know what I mean?
There's stuff here that they never, ever let go of.
But you see how animated he is by the baseball thing because he
really likes it, but you also see him discovering what he's saying
to them.
I don't think he knows going in what he's saying to them, but here
he is in the baseball diamond and he gets to explain the game.
And so Jake asked that question.
He goes, that might be the most important thing to understand
about humans.
We don't know the future.
That's why we explore.
And that's why we create TV shows like this.
And that's why we decide to propose to a beautiful woman.
You know, like it's so good.
It's so good.
He smiles and throws the baseball in the air and goes, because
it's linear.
Yeah, he's like, I could tie all this together.
Yeah, yeah.
But he gets it.
He's learning, you know, he's learning and he's learning to reach
out to them in a very traditional Star Trek way.
And I love the shot of the man there, the baseball guy
understanding when he's saying we're not a threat to you is like
okay.
Yeah.
All right.
Maybe we can make this one.
Of course, we know now.
And the future, well, the profit's planned all this all along.
They're responsible for his birth.
Yeah, that's a little bit of a cheat, isn't it?
Oh, well.
Oh, that's okay.
Nathan, they're not linear, you know.
Yes, so.
Aye, aye, aye.
And there's something about the...
Oh, anyway, where are we now?
Oh, so we're now at the wormhole, um, and this is this is Kira
giving the thing, is it?
That's right.
Oh, and the Cardassians are here.
They're demanding to know where Gold Dakar is.
So this going close up on Sid for some reason.
He's in TNG, isn't he?
He's in a couple of episodes, TNG.
Is he?
I think so.
Well the actor is.
I think he's the same actor who played Gullivic.
Gullivic.
He's great.
I think he is fantastic.
He's really properly good, I think.
Yeah, he's always a little bit campus, right?
We do like a camp.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, I mean, they're all a bit camp.
I mean, Marco Lemo is pretty camp.
He goes later on.
We demand your immediate surrender.
Oh, shit, the whips are coming out when they're on board.
Get out of the phases, everyone.
And so the 2 women are in charge. which is pretty great.
I think that's pretty good Yes.
You couldn't imagine Troy and Beverly Crusher doing this, could
you?
See that's a bit of a shame, isn't it?
Whoops.
Oh, you couldn't imagine.
Oh, there is a line, actually, in covenant in series 7, where um
Asri goes to Kira.
You know, you'd be a pretty great counsellor.
And Kira goes, are you kidding me?
You dreamt about what?
Get out of my office.
Now, those are the canceller sessions I want to see.
Oh, shit in hell.
Is this where she surrenders?
No, no, that's right at the end.
That's right at the end.
We're still some distance away.
We're about 15 minutes from the end, but it does look like a great
moment, though, isn't it?
Yeah, she sells this as well.
And then suddenly we, uh, that's when Cisco appears through the
through the wormhole.
I need a day to make preparations is pretty great.
No, he goes, oh, just open the airlocks.
We'll come in.
You'll be all right.
You don't understand.
You broke all the airlocks when you left.
You have one hour.
That's really good, isn't it?
Whoops.
And you know, he accidentally turned the screen off, but the other
line, you said, at the end of that was until I make you scream
with deaths of pleasure or something like that, you know.
Very camp.
So what are we doing?
So we're doing lots of space stuff here at this point, but we left
Cisco back in his quarters on the Saratoga.
Well, we need to see them working together, right?
We need to see how this will be a Star Trek crew solving
problems.
It's a bit of an issue in encounter a far point because everyone
just stands around whilst those 2 big jellyfish flow up into the
sky and no one really does anything.
So, and it is a fairly, like, it's a fairly, like, I mean, the
jellyfish thing is weird.
Do you know what I mean?
And the queue thing is weird.
Like it's Star Trek being weird.
Here we are establishing, well, like we've already established a
version of Star Trek, which is about sort of space battles between
rival empires or whatever, and we've seen that in TNG, and that's
worked very well, all that Klingon stuff in particular.
The Cardassians are introduced to be someone different, but
they've been introduced really well.
We've just had chain of command too, haven't we?
That sort of beefs them up.
Oh, here we go.
Here we go.
Yeah, so why are you bringing me back?
Why have you brought me back?
And this is this is it?
The moment where we realise.
Jesus, Nathan, I know what my moment would be if this was
happening to me, you know?
the day my mum went, it would literally be that.
I would be playing that out.
I don't know if I ever left that moment, if I'm honest.
Yeah, well, I don't think you do.
I don't think people do, you know.
Look for solutions from within.
And that's O Parker doing the same thing.
I think it's really good.
I think it's really great. look at them.
And then die.
What is this?
and doesn't Jennifer explain it?
That's a big lot of Star Trek command. explains what death is
because she's learnt it from Cisco.
I was ready to die with her.
That's a big line, I think.
And look, she touches him because he's distressed.
She remembers what he said about touch before, and she's touching
his face to explore it, but also because she knows how she she
understands what his last year is.
It's really good.
The camera swings around on Cisco.
The scene from the start.
I think you stand it. really well done.
It's really good.
Yeah, I never left this ship.
And then she says, you exist here.
It's really good, isn't it?
It's the tour, I can't discover it together.
This whole bit now.
It's when it, it's when it goes over to her body.
Oh, no, she's decorously presented there.
But he's so raw in this scene.
He is an actor that isn't afraid to just let go and do it.
Yeah, and he's really good here, this name.
He's got tears streaming down his face by the end of the scene.
Fuck.
Every time I close my eyes.
Yeah.
It's um, it just his seconds a moment away from this at any
point.
It's true, you know, it's true.
Like, I just said about, well, for years afterwards, I saw that
moment of her death for years when I was going to bed in the
dark.
Like this stuff is, it is properly profound, I think.
It is genuinely saying something about traumatic moments in your
life.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, Avery.
And look at just the compassion on Jennifer's face there too.
That's the singer.
It's not linear.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not linear.
Now, he's really a line.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, it's still Star Trek, you know.
Yeah, well that's right.
That's right.
Oh, and he looks up at oh, Pucker.
Yeah, again, you know, and because that is Arrow Parker, she said
the same thing that O Parker says as well, that is some incredible
acting.
That is great. acting from Avery.
Yeah, goodness me.
There we go.
Yeah, I mean, I don't often get moved watching telly, but he has
the ability.
He does it a couple of times in the run.
Yeah, like in Far Beyond the Stars.
Oh, fuck.
That's worst.
That's even worse than this.
I'm a mess watching that.
Is this what she says, fire the beam.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, no.
It's like, is it the 6 torpedoes?
Like, let's give them our answer.
Um, five, 6 torpedoes and he says we only have 6 torpedoes.
We're not going to win this with torpedoes, chief.
And the smile, that smile is so great.
It's a well-framed shot and that's a beautifully delivered lady.
They're built in.
A crew here.
I think we need.
Maybe we need to see that she's going to work together with
everyone because she was prickly in the 1st half of the episode.
Fuck, do you remember when Move Along Home.
We were just baffled at how aggressive she was in that, weren't
we?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like we'd gone back a step.
This is not what I signed up for.
Oh, just side slow.
Well, come.
This is your answer.
But I also like, I also like O'Brien kind of goes, yeah, all right
I'm in.
I reckon I can give you a plasma burst, like a phaser burst, you
know, or I could probably do you another phase of it because he's
kind of on board with what she's doing.
This is such a cheesy light and she sells the fuck out of it.
It's also a good line.
Like, it is a cheesy line, but it is also a kind of like, I am not
the sort of person that you are used to dealing with because I
will behave like I have nothing to lose.
You know, like, like, I'm not going to be entirely rational here.
And her journey with the Kardashians.
That's another great threat for our dance 9 that reaps.
Yeah, there's astonishing dramatic rewards.
Yeah.
The one with Gamore that we did 2nd skin.
You know, great episodes.
Yeah, here we go. 4 on sale, Shields and...
Shadows and stuff.
And that's what someone says that we have on the ship in, um, in
way of the warrior, but it turns out, no, we've just got a fucked
on, if I'm, you know, like a little gum.
I know how you've got a thing for Cardassians.
I think that one's quite handsome there.
Look, the one standing in the thing for Kardassian.
What do I think for Cardassians?
You do, Casey Beaks?
You was musting all over him before?
There's been a few, actually.
Actually, and a few Gemadars as well.
There's a couple of hot Klingons, I think.
No, there was a time with the ball queen too.
I'm just getting worried.
She's sexy, but she's not really my type.
Are you sure?
But I can see why she's...
Yeah.
Yes.
Not one overall, a corpse of a woman, no.
Leave it to Fraser Gregory, please.
Oh, what did what did Bashir say then when she went too late for a
victory celebration?
Is that when he went?
Yes.
Oh, they're moving away.
That's why.
Yeah, yeah. because they're going to fight.
And this is the point where he says, I'll give you a, I'll give
you a thing.
The reason why this really affected me when I was younger.
I was like, my God, the promenade was such a mess earlier.
They've just cleaned it all up.
Now it's going to explode again.
Every week.
It's a proper explosion where there's huge sheets of metal flying
up in the air and everyone...
And when Odo stops to help that lady.
The blood on her is really, yeah, yeah, yeah. quite visceral.
I think all of that just happens to give Julian his hero moment.
And so we get to see him being the competent doctor that he claims
he is with Kira.
You know, we need to see him do a doctory thing.
And so that's why we have this attack.
Oh my god, look, the ceiling's falling down.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That guy.
Oh, no.
Eddie Rocks?
Lamp exploded.
No, that guy flew across the thing, though.
Oh, it's just like the fella falling off the promenade in Way of
the Warrior.
Oh, look at that.
I think that there's some of those explosions.
One of the things about watching this was for years and years, the
Star Trek videos had the trailer for this, remember, at the
beginning of them?
Uh, and you would see like Odo uh, reforming from being a bag and
you would see, uh, you know, you would see the hero moment with
Avery appearing in the in the lift or whatever, um, and you would
see the explosions on the promenade, you know.
It's really excited every week.
We promise.
This is quite simply the journey you are always destined to take
commander.
You know that?
Was that in there?
Oh, yeah, yeah, of course it was.
I remember there's Avery going, you don't know what you're missing
in one of them.
Oh, I love as well.
Odo, who's been so gruff and dismissive now is terrified that he's
got to administer 1st aid.
That's good too, isn't it?
And again, he's more competent and more on top of things than Odo
is in this situation, which is really good.
And of course, Odo being uncomfortable with situations is a thing
that happens quite a lot, you know, going forward.
O'Brien and the pet and climbing out.
Like it's simple, but it's more interesting than looking at that
bridge set.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, you know, they do manage some dynamism in Voyagers Bridge set
but it is effectively the same layout, just better lit, right?
There she is.
She's about to surrender.
You saw her collecting herself and looking down and breathing in
and stuff and then Dax interrupts.
A huge neutrino disturbance.
Yeah, well we know what that means.
Couldn't have just gone, what the fuck does that mean?
No, she knows.
Hail, the lead sheep and get out.
Yeah, now she's winning.
Smock is awesome.
That's a great show.
It's not quite as good as that bit in Shadows and Simples, though
when the wormhole appeared there?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And she said, right, signal all the ships. we're staying in the
blockade we're not backing down She is cool as hell, Shakira.
This is wonderful.
Just superb.
Oh, no, but we looks very relaxing. doesn't he, Avery?
He's very chill.
He's at all of my personal issues.
Yes exactly.
What's that?
Tell Counsellor Troy she's out of a job.
Everyone's going to the profits now.
That's right.
She's been replaced by a wormhole.
Yeah, this, like this shot, I think.
Oh, those doors.
That was one of the best movies as well.
So chunky.
Yeah, they're awesome.
Oh, man, there's been a lot happening in this, hasn't there?
It really has, but it is very simple.
It's super straightforward.
This moment where he sees Drake is so good.
It's the Avery smile again.
Dad.
And we see Siri smiling as well.
It's really sweet Oh, no facilities.
There we go.
We've done all right this time.
Yeah, we're all right. 13 casualty.
Look, and that smiles broader. like there's been few of them.
He smiled at Jennifer, but he smiles at Jake the way he was
smiling at Jennifer before. look at that I mean, as much as we
love Henny Johnson Gerald, this is the love affair of Duke Space
Norway, isn't it?
Still one of the things.
And that was what they honed in on in Starfleet Academy.
Starfleet Academy.
Yeah, absolutely.
So beautiful, that was.
So wonderful.
When I heard his voice at the end in that voiceover.
I had goodies.
It was terrific.
So good.
Oh, here's that weird scene now.
Yeah, yeah.
Now suddenly, suddenly, Avery's on the back foot.
Suddenly, Cisco's on the back foot and he's apologetic.
Oh, please, Captain Picard.
Can I stay, please?
Yeah, I just think why are we doing that?
not sure, you know?
He won't quite rude to me earlier. yeah that's exactly it.
I'm Captain Picard.
Do you know who I am?
I've taken down Admiral Satay.
You give me respect from me off.
Exactly.
Get out of it, Picard. not needed here anymore.
Yeah, you're not.
But we've got our fabulous new crew.
Look how the direction works when he leaves because we don't get a
good buy moment from him.
He takes over the scene, even though he's a little bit
apologetic.
Um, so there he is.
He strides up to him.
He shakes his hand.
We never see him again.
Then we go up to Avery, and he says, good luck, Mr. Cisco, but
then he's off camera, and then we see his back. as he goes away.
So after he shakes hands with Cisco.
We never see his face again, and he just walks out of the scene
without saying goodbye, and now Cisco is in a weak shot of
beautiful Avery, and we're like, yeah, we're in good hands.
And then this scene, which is just everyone walking through the
mall, isn't it, like having chats and stuff, doing little moments
the community.
This line, if you don't take your hand off my thigh, you will
never raise a glass of that again.
Well, Grillka does that to him too, doesn't it, doesn't she?
What's her line?
You don't take your hand off my thigh.
Oh, I can't remember the full line. similar something like it is.
Oh, I love a woman in uniform.
So great.
He still manages to be sleazy and undefeated.
Of course, of course.
And now look, look at the hub of activity on the promenade
everyone's coming in and out.
It's all been cleaned up.
It all looks very nice.
But again, we've said it a 1000000 times.
The promenade, what a great move that was.
Just to where we started from.
Oh, fabulous.
And then we all...
That's all they built.
It's just that sort of side there.
You haven't got the shops on the other side, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And the top floor of Quark's bar.
Ah, da, da, da, da.
So exciting.
And here come a couple of ships, obviously, to give us a new
adventure.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
But we heard about them.
They were the ships that we were talking about in dialogue
before.
Yeah, seem like...
Is like is Ferengi Pitboss.
So he's like...
No, no, we did say something.
It was something.
It was the guys and because all of the airlocks were broken, they
were all going to have to beam on board.
Oh, boy.
And there's a bit of that in season one.
Do you know how long I've been waiting to come on your station?
I do like the fact it takes a little while for them to sort it all
out, you know. feels like an achievement when we get there.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, no, I think I mean, this was really great.
It's super accomplished, I think.
And clearly an improvement on whatever the hell they thought they
were doing an encounter at Farpoint, which has its own charms, I
guess.
It was literally 2 scripts that had been blended into one, wasn't
it?
The Q script and the FarPoint script.
And literally the Q strip sort of ends at the end of part one and
then we're encounter a far point for part two.
It's weird.
It is weird.
But it has the job of introducing the 24th century tours, whereas
this has some stuff I can rely on, I think.
I don't know.
I just think this is really properly good, super entertaining and
you know, confident and fun.
I think it promises more interesting characters and
relationships.
It promises to be a darker look at Star Trek, and it promises to
have consequences, right?
And it delivers on all of those things in that 1st season there in
various ways.
The one thing it promises and doesn't deliver in season one is to
be a visually spectacular show because we do have a lot of, I mean
there's a courtroom episode, you know, move along home.
I mean, it had some visuals in it, but they weren't that great
were they?
Yeah, that's true.
Actually, I did want to ask you this question.
I was gonna ask you at the start, but we're at the end.
What's British television considered quite prestige over in
America at this point?
Because David Carson directs this?
They dragged him over from Britain to directing.
I gave him $18000000 It's a bit like the Doctor Who TV movie.
They found some sort of middling English director and said, come
spend all this money and create a new Star Trek show for us.
And so is this David Carson's 1st Star Trek?
No.
His 1st was yesterday's enterprise.
Ah, yes, okay.
And I think they thought, well, he created a very dark Star Trek
for us before.
Maybe he could do it again.
And who directs generations?
That's David Castle. that's what I thought.
That's what I thought.
He went, my God.
I can actually light scenes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's pretty good.
Well, he does that in yesterday's Enterprise.
Remember?
We said that, you know, it's a parallel universe or an aborted
timeline where the enterprise was interestingly lit or sometimes
ludicrously lit.
Do you know his only other episode, Nathan, that he directs?
So if you think of that, though, yesterday's Enterprise, emissary
generation's the 1st movie, and the 4th one is?
Is it Accession?
No.
A la Marine.
We count 2 points.
I mean, he got a full house, didn't he?
Yeah that's true.
They need something.
Holy crap.
Baffling episode, that was.
Started so well.
But this did start well, I think.
And do you remember I had a massive rant when we talked about
Voyager for the 1st time, about all of that promise in caretaker.
And, you know, oh, my God, the tension with the marquee, their
interesting relationships, you know, parish and chakotay fighting
and lost in a regional space, uniting the factions.
I forgot all about all of it.
Episode 3, maybe?
We go back to it once a year and the ratings are low.
No, we never leave the station, do it?
And all of the stuff, all the characters here go on interesting
journeys.
They take all of the concepts here and develop them all.
It's a good show.
It's a great show.
But, but Pillar did all of the legwork here.
Oh yeah, it's really strong and you can kind of tell.
And, you know, he's the person who creates Star Trek the Next
Generation in its final form in lots of ways by centring the
characters, making each episode happen to a person or a couple of
people.
And, and we're really leaning into it here.
We're building a set of characters for whom that works with very
well and who all offer a lot of opportunities for that to happen
in lots of ways, I think.
And so I don't think we can underestimate, you know, his
contribution.
Well, that was a triumphant pilot there, Nathan.
I can't wait till we do another.
I'm sure they'll all be spectacular successes like that.
I'm sure they will.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to
work out where we're going next.
We have had an incredible run of amazing 90s trek episodes over
our last few episodes, and so it's time for me to put a stop to
that.
I know what you're going to do.
An episode of Star Trek Enterprise.
Oh boy.
I'm ready.
No, do you know what?
I've been justly convinced that 90s Trek had some value now.
So let's let's go to the dying days of each trek and see what's
happened.
Now, of course, with our new randomiser, I can choose any series
but I'm just going to leave all of them open, I think.
Oh, you should have done one and two.
We've had so much free and four.
All right, let's do one and two.
I'll turn...
It'll be genuinely ghostly as well.
Okay, here goes.
I'm pushing the button.
It's one we've done.
In fact, it's season one, episode four, Strange New World, the 1st
episode of Star Trek Enterprise.
Jama gives it a bim plus half a style.
Yeah.
No accounting for tastes.
All right, here goes.
Season one, episode 11.
I'm sure we've rolled this before.
A cold front.
Cold front.
I've Enterprise Place host to visitors on a religious retreat.
Uh-oh.
Archer is made aware of a Sulaban intruder, who may be part of a
conspiracy waged from centuries in the future.
That sounds like they're coming together of 2 very boring things
doesn't it?
It does, doesn't it?
It does.
Well, I'm not bored rolling yet, and I haven't had a go for a
while, so I'm going to do it again.
There's one I really want you to roll, so I'm hoping it comes
off.
All right, here goes.
It's the only one that Jama gives 0 styles too.
So it'll probably be great.
What about this?
Dead Stop, season two, episode four.
Season two, episode four.
Crippled with severe damage done having few options.
The Enterprise docks automatic repair station.
I like this one, and it's a sequel to the previous week's one
which was...
Boring minefield that we did. you remember?
It's a sequel to minefield.
Travis, was it Travis?
Reed being very awkward with Captain Archer.
Yeah, yeah.
It was a very boring episode.
This is a weird one where it's, there's no people.
It's automated and it goes wrong and starts attacking them.
This automated station.
It's pretty good, I seem to remember.
I'm actually tempted to give it a go because you did talk about
it.
I think we talked about it at the time And we have had that
thing.
I think maybe in series three, there's a point where they're kind
of really brutally slammed and then they have to go for repairs
you know.
So, and they are quite beaten up, aren't they?
Minefield is their 1st encounter with the Romulans without them
realising it.
There's a weird, um, almost, this is a very obscure reference.
Sapphire and steel type atmosphere to this one.
Because there's no people around, it's sort of eerily quiet in
places, and then suddenly it comes to life.
I remember a big grabby arm comes out of it and grabs hold of the
enterprise at one point.
It's not bad, actually.
Yeah.
I wonder who writes that one Uh oh, it's Mike Sussman and Phyllis
Strong, but directed by our Roxanne Dawson.
Oh, okay.
We love her.
All right, I reckon we do that one.
Why not?
We may as well.
That sounds like fun.
I'm up for it.
Gemma says good continuity.
Plentiful sci-fi weirdness. intriguing.
Okay.
Does he give it how many bends?
Does he give it?
It's a better than half a star.
Yeah, three.
Okay.
A Ben and a bit.
So it's as good as Strangely World. that's right Oh, bloody open
off.
Jesus.
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project
com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social
media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 19th of May 2026 and released on
the 22nd of May.
And we'll see you next time for Star Trek Enterprise, Dead Stop.
Have you played with the, have you played with the, um, the
interactive transcript on the website?
I haven't.
Did you send me a link for it?
Hang on.
Just go to the website.
Oh, no, it's just got to list every stupid thing I've ever said on
this.
Oh, it's actionable, too.
It's not easily searchable yet, but it'll get there.
Your bit's gone.
We just highlight your bits.
No, tell to tell.
I can't tell.
There you go.
Oh my god, it's going to be so refreshing.
Okay, so click on the 1st duty, so you're on just the 1st duties
page.
And then scroll down. download.
So that's the episode, yeah?
down under that?
under the episode.
Yeah.
Does it say transcript?
Oh, sorry, I need to click on the actual...
On the word transcript.
Oh, my God.
I just keep scrolling.
It's the whole page. of everything that we said.
Oh, Christ.
Oh, do you know what?
This could be fun.
I could take out selected quotes.
You click on a word. have a listen.
Click on a word and it will start playing that word in the audio.
You're joking.
Come on.
Hang on.
Okay, I'm going to go into trials and tribulation because that was
a great fun episode.
Hang up.
Well, click on any word.
Yeah.
I'll click on the line.
Yeah, click on the line and it'll play it.
It's just jumping every time I click here.
Yeah.
And it lights up as it says the word as well.
The part that's been...
Yeah, yeah, it is.
And what I'll offer over it.
Um, is it...
Is it like a thing that...
Um, deaf people use in transcript.
I don't know.
Yeah, because, I mean, it's in it's in Apple, it's in Overcast.
He is overcast.
It has transcripts now and Apple Podcasts have transcripts and so
deaf people can use it so they can access podcasts.
It doesn't do speaker identification.
But what it does is.
It's really clear.
I mean, like the font is great.
Working on. yeah, yeah, yeah.
I like I'm working on it because the next thing is making it
searchable so that I'll have a search page, you can type, and I
looked up BoMar, it doesn't always spell Beaumar correctly, but
the search, it's still fine, so, and...
Look at this.
No, trouble triples.
Oh, God.
Well, we'll do that again.
Oh, certainly.
Here's the lilac line.
Oh, so funny.
Who's the O person?
I think that's you, you know.
I bet you bloody does that was me.
Is that good, though?
Is that great?
I so happy with it.
Oh my god.
I just think it's so it's so beautifully laid out though, isn't
it?
Like, I mean, you'd think that would be a chore to read a transfer
of a podcast.
But because it's line, line, line, hang on, I'm noticing, oh, it's
you.
Yeah, let's see, you do the more substantial lines, and then I'm
just coming in with being...
Oh, it will get the odd thing wrong though, right?
Oh yeah, yeah, it does.
It's not a Duke space nine.
No, I know, it does some odd things.
It does some odd things.
And like, um, what I'm just thinking is that the transcriber thing
will get better and better as time goes by, and so every so often
I'll just transcribe all the episodes again, because it took me
like 2 hours to describe.
Because remember it's 9.5 hours, 9.5 days of podcasts. program you
run and it literally just does all of them.
Well, I, so a program that I ran that I wrote.
So there's a program that does a transcribing, but then I wrote a
script that goes through the all of the episodes and turns of into
transcripts, and then I wrote the stuff that puts it on the web
page and wired it up to the player and all of that so that it does
that.
And I did the typography on it and stuff.
So I did all of that, but I've done it once and now I've done it
to 2 more podcast sites.
I'm going to do it to flight through entirety, but the next step
is making it searchable.
Ooh.
I mean, I love listening to flight preentority.
Oh, sure, those ones are so smart.
I think I'd like to read them.
They would be a good read. yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't want to read me.
Good read for all this nonsense.
I'm coming out.
So great.
So good.
Is that good?
It's just like, oh, like a doppelag.
Listen to this.
It's so ridiculous Oh my god, it's wonderful.
It's so good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's perfect.
It's just so good.
It's me.
Nathan, I think we got the tag, you know.
Talking about the transcripts, yeah.
Oh my god, that's great.
We should do it.
What new features will come next?
I've already started to implement it.
I've already started to implant it.
It sort of works, but I've got to style it and make it work
better.
But I'm doing that.
Fabulous.
Oh my god.
Man, it's coming up.
I just expert call things, aren't you?
I've just written an article because I worked out how to do it.
I've just written an article on how to add transcripts to your
podcast website and I'm going to publish it in the next day or
two.
So there you go.
Oh, so then other people can.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
What we're talking about here.
It's very, very bad.
Yeah, it's pretty bad.
It is written by David Gerald, but terrible.
It really was a half-ass such show, wasn't it?
That's the animated series for sure. make myself laugh.
Quite funny, aren't we?
Oh, that's it.
That's what I'm the proudest of.
Oh my god, it's the fellow who plays out those stats.
Oh, dear.
Oh, what's this?
Hang on.
Have you got the Barclay filter on this?
No.
I mean, this is the Barclay, right?
is his 2nd episode.
Oh, that's when we're doing the bit at the end.
Yeah, it must be.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, it's fabulous.
Gosh, you are clever clocks, and yeah?
Oh, a fucking clue how to do this.
Oh, yeah, you could tell when we're doing a comedy.
We're literally batting the ball back and forth.
You don't realise, obviously, you can't see a podcast.
You don't realise the sort of flow of it until you see it like
that.
It's really amazing.
The other thing is that I did write a program that counted the
number of words in flight, in, um, on Star Trek project, uh, and
it is on the page, on the about page.
There will be up to date total every week.
But I think we decided it was about 2200000 words that we've
said.
2.2 million.
Oh my god.
That's pretty easy to do.
That's far less words. full a full and rich life, a life full of
incident and 2000000 words. how many works I've done overall.
That would be beyond terrifying.
It's best I don't know that.
FTA is about 3000000 words.
What do you reckon?
We're going to catch up with that.
I could do hamster, you know.
I could write a program that would download all of them.
I don't know about sleep again, no. 10000000 words.
I already put that website up that tells you how many hours of
hamster.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yes.
It grows with terrifying frequency. amazing.
Although, do you know what?
I' been really happy with the stuff I've put out this year.
I think the strictlys have been good.
I think the book clubs have been good and I think the commentaries
have been great.
So I am really happy with what's going out at the moment.
And I did bring in a lot of new voices this year as well, which
you know, you do for flight for entirety, don't you?
Like, it's always good to have new voices, I think.
Yeah.
We should get going because we've got...
Oh, shit now, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, no, I mean, we're going to go for that a bit, aren't we?
If I can get to sleep by one, then I can have an hour at least, an
hour.
Cool.
Hey, Joe. Hi.