Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we are back aboard the USS Discovery after something of a
break and we are in series 5 for the 1st time.
So this is Face the Strange, series 5, episode four, which was 1st
broadcast less than 2 years ago on the 18th of April 2024 and just
contextualise it.
We have had, I think, 55 new episodes of Star Trek since this ad.
Wow.
Okay.
Yeah, so 55 better episodes than this, I'm sure.
I don't think so.
So we've had...
We've had season 2 of prodigy season 5 of Lower Deck, season 3 of
Strange New Worlds, and the 1st few episodes of Starfleet
Academy.
You've just named 3 better seasons than this, all right?
I think that this is perhaps not the best season of Discovery, but
I do think it's a season that we needed to have because Discovery
had been so high stakes and so overwrought, I think, during its
run.
And so this is essentially a season where they have a caper and
the job is to collect all of the 6 segments of the key to time
before lock and mole manage to collect it.
And it actually is really quite fun, I think, on the whole as a
running plot.
You see in the previously on that they get to go to Trill and
Kulba gets to play the part of a like a previous Trill host or
something and find them the 1st part and they go from place to
place to place.
Loll and mock are quite fun adversaries.
We have our 1st Breen out of his helmet in Locke, and I think
they're quite fun.
And of course, they're chasing the technology of the progenitors
who are salome yens from the chase in Star Trek the Next
Generation. being paid to talk these days then.
Well, yes, yes, they are.
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
We decided in T-space 9.
They just didn't want to pay for them to actually have dialogue.
They just sort of went, didn't they?
I think it wasn't just that they didn't want to pay for dialogue.
I think that they also didn't want to write characters for them.
Do you know what I mean, that they wanted an extra adversary, but
they didn't want to add a whole heap of extra characters.
That's a joke as well, didn't they?
You know, we can't understand them.
Boo, you had way you reacted, oh, that's so funny, you know?
Some of the best dialogue we've ever heard.
So we get the Breen and they get a mention here, of course, because
the Breen, we discover, are the people that lock and mole will
sell the progenitors technology to, and if Michael and Rayna fail
there who will destroy the Federation.
I had my usual sort of horror watching the, um, previously on
because I'm diving into a season of which I know absolutely
nothing about, and I'm getting this quick succession of images and
information trying to catch me up in about 30 seconds.
And I was like, well, I didn't really get what any of that was
about.
But let's see if this episode, you know, exemplifies series 5 and
it's a big, huge, important part of the season and I very quickly
realised it wasn't that.
It was just a standard sort of Star Trek space and time problem to
solve, hopping about in time and things like that.
So I was quite relieved on that part because we've jumped into
seasons before where I've sort of got the gist, and it's both
we've talked about this as strength and a weakness of serialised
television in that our method of choosing episodes randomly means
sometimes we're jumping into the middle. you know, we're seeing
one puzzle piece of a big picture.
Um, it wasn't an issue at all here.
My big issue with this was sort of watching the episode itself
which whilst I think if you're a big fan of discovery, then you
could probably get a lot from the, especially the 2nd half of the
episode as it's jumping back in time, and as it's making
comparisons between older Burnham and newer Burnham, and you're
seeing old characters that have died, come, you know, back to life
and they're doing cute things with all of that.
But fuck me, Nathan, this was plotting.
This was a plodding, and you said the word earnest episode of Star
Trek, which reminded me so much of 90s trek, because it was a lot
of scenes of 2 people standing in underlit rooms, spouting a load
of technobabble, and I was like, this is not the Kurtzman trek
that I'm used to at all.
And when you said to me that season 5 was a caper, I was expecting
high energy.
I was expecting, um, you know, oh, batter, bing, batter, bang, you
know, heists and things like this, and instead, this was a very
It's a very old Star Trek story, this, we have seen it a couple of
times before, and I'm sure we're going to talk about that.
But it was just a seriousness with how this was all played.
I was like, My big issue, and it's a me issue, because I do a lot
of podcasts, and yesterday, I watched 2 things yesterday, and
unfortunately, this episode of Discovery came out all the worse
for it, because the other thing I watched was an episode of, of
all things, the Sarah Jane Adventures, Warriors of Kudlac, which
is a mid-season, a bit like this, a mid-season Sarah Jane
Adventure story.
But boy, it had propulsion and pace and energy and wonderful jokes
and performances full of personality and it had a genuine like
emotional through line to it.
But it just had energy all the way through and I just tore through
it.
I was watching this and I was just like, when is this going to
start moving?
Like Jesus Christ.
So I watched relativity because you mentioned, so that's a Voyager
episode from series.
Fabulous.
And it treads some of the same ground as this.
But the thing that I thought made it different was that it wasn't
actually about anything and it didn't have any real sort of
character stuff.
And eventually in a way that was kind of satisfying, it all kind
of devolves into this sort of nonsense thing where there's Jane
ways and then 7s all over the place.
And there's 3 Captain Braxtons who have to be reintegrated and
they get arrested for things they haven't done yet.
And I thought that was actually kind of fun.
Oh, a new spaceship.
You love that sort of thing.
It looked a heap like the old spaceship, though, I have to say.
Whereas here, I think this does a very good job of being about 2
things.
And initially it's clearly about the conflict between Rainer and
Michael.
And there's a scene that ends with Rainer saying, what if you're
wrong about your leadership style?
And so we see the 2 leadership stars exemplified.
We see the 2 characters in conflict around them, and then they're
put into a time loop where it turns out the solution is adopting
Michael's leadership style.
And in a way that's she's right.
She's always right on this show with tedious predictability.
But that is because she's superb.
And so you say.
And of course, you know, Reina is there to be the anti-Saru.
We don't have Saru on the bridge this season because he's Doug
Jones, is it available?
Well, I think they would have had if they'd been able to, but he's
not properly available.
They do have him throughout the season.
This is the only episode of Discovery where Doug Jones isn't
credited and he does appear from a scene, I think, from such sweet
sorry part two, possibly, or possibly.
It does a wonderful Doctor Who thing when the actor's not
available. is they're sort of unconscious over there.
It's just another actor in the universe.
No, it's not.
It is actually Doug Jones, but it's taken from a previous
episode.
But they sell it by having Mary Wiseman, as she is now, in that
scene as well, you know, getting up and sort of reacting to what's
going on.
So it's essentially about that conflict and it is also a kind of
celebration in the final year of discovery, you know, going in
that this is the last year.
So this is a celebration of where we've come, and because
Discovery is Michael's story, we have a Michael from the very
beginning of the show and a Michael from the end of the show
interacting, and I think they succeed in this episode, partly
because Michael opens up to Rainer early on in the episode, and
then because Rainer adopts Michael's leadership style in the way
that he deals with young Michael.
And so there's a thematic unity to the whole thing, which I think
is good and a character focus to the whole thing.
Now, there is another time loop episode that we've already done in
Discovery, which is magic to make the sanest man go mad.
Oh, God, in comparison of that is full of that.
Is that the one with the party, engineering?
The only convincing Star Trek party, although special mention does
need to go to Dax's hens night with handsome...
Well, they snogging in that discovery episode, vomiting down...
I think more...
But they were playing beer pong, remember, until he was getting
drunk and trying to get himself a man in uniform. on the table and
awful.
But even that, like that has less of a character focus, but it
does focus in some sense on Stamets, you know, who is now part of
her.
That's a wonderful villain in it.
And it's got a great villain.
Art, you know?
And and the but the time loop itself was really fun.
It was full of twists and turns.
It never stops running.
Yeah, it's really fast.
This one don't start running.
But it also, it does send her on Michael as well.
And of course, it's the 1st kiss between Michael and Ash, who
confesses to Stammets, remember, that she's never been kissed
before.
And so, you know, there is a character focus as well, and it is
predictably on Michael because that's the show.
I, like I think that it does what it sets out to do sort of fairly
successfully, but it is, it is very earnest.
As an hour of telly.
It don't really stop me.
And my big issue is that, who is that new character, that man?
He's so boring.
And the performance, man, there's no personality.
So he doesn't raise his voice.
He doesn't show any particular characteristics.
She's got nothing to work with in those blood and all. true
though.
He's gruff and old-fashioned and dismissive.
But he's...
But he's very, you know, he is very clearly a particular type of
person and he's conveying that person.
That's Callum Keith Rennie, who is a cylon on Battlestar
Galactica.
He's one of the cylons.
I hope you have some better material over there than memorable
time. scenes.
They were so plotting those scenes for the 2 of them together.
And you know me, I have big issues with Michael Burnham as a
character anyway in that.
For me, I think he's a great performer.
I think she's wonderful.
I think the actress is wonderful.
I just, the show's upset.
There isn't another Star Trek show as obsessed with a single
character as Discovery is.
DS9 isn't it?
That's obsessed with Cisco.
Voyager isn't as obsessed with Janeway.
Like, and it always just comes back to this, and I just don't
think there's enough there to stretch out 5 years of obsession
with this woman.
Um, yeah, and so all of those scenes were just so flat in this, and
you wait.
Even the camera weren't moving.
You watch, even the camera is barely moving in this episode.
I was like, I can usually a Rolana drone zipping about the place
to give the show some energy.
It's like everyone's just sort of given up.
I don't think that's right.
I think, so this is, um, this is Lee Rose, who does 4 other
episodes of Discovery, and we've seen 2 of them already.
He does the examples and he does butt to connect and they were
both from series four, I think.
So this is his last episode.
Like, I didn't really notice a difference from the just the sort
of normal discovery how style.
And I did, as I said, just before this watched relativity.
For an episode that features the ship actually exploding.
Everyone does seem to walk in a very leisurely way from place to
place and talk very slowly.
And there's the occasional camera...
Whereas I do think that I'm used to discovery, discovery having
like really interesting images in it.
And this is all standing set.
It's a bit of a show, isn't it?
Yeah, but look at you.
I mean, I'll point out the lion as we go through.
There's a sort of like flat blueness to it.
Even the lighting on a Kurtzman trek.
I used to really popping, you know, and they're being great.
I was just like, just on sort of every level, on the performances
which were very earnest, the how it was executed, which was kind
of slow.
I know there's a fistfight.
I know there's a phase of fight, but you can expect those things
in most Star Trek episodes.
I don't know, it just plotted.
I realised that's a terrible way to start going to watch it.
I'm watching it with you.
I think I found it more rewarding because I'm invested in
discovery and because I like spending time with a crew, because it
does celebrate the whole trajectory of the show.
And I think it does have enough kind of fun stuff, like they make
the decision to include Stamets, which I think is good.
They give Jet Reno a bit of a run and she doesn't get a massive
run in series 5, although she will be back a couple of years later
for quite a lot of material in season one of Starfleet Academy
fortunately.
She gets a very eccentric dinner scene in that DS9 love end.
I don't know what that is.
That's a very strange people.
But so I do think there's that.
And I just think too, you know, there is something about the look
of discovery that I really enjoy, and I have to say, like
discovery is the only Star Trek show apart from Picard, which
centres on a single individual quite as much, but I just kind of
think you've got Sanequa Martin Green, and she is magnetic and
beautiful, and I can't take my eyes off her, and so I can see why
they made that decision.
I mean, I could see a discernable difference in her performance
styles when she was doing young guy, though no, an older Burnham
like there was a sort of angriness in her eyes, wasn't it?
when she was younger and then she's much more relaxed as the older
Burnham.
But even those things, man, they were played so serious.
Oh, come on now, you've got 2 of the same character and one scene
have some fun with each other Yeah, and they absolutely don't do
that at all, do they?
Like they don't.
They have a fight.
They've a...
It's not the order of the day.
It's fine.
And then they're in different rooms later on when she turns up
again so they don't interact a 2nd time.
But that needs to be a scene between Rainer and Michael in any
case.
I think that's, you know, that has to be resolved in that way
because he has to save the day by using her leadership style for
the episode to work, I think.
This really did feel like, no, it is track to me, though.
It really did.
Insofar as it was a lot, seems of 2 people standing in rooms
talking about the space problem and loads of techno babble.
There's quite a lot of techno babble in this. and you know me
that's not what I'm in Star Trek for.
I have some positive things to say about the techno bevel, actually
because I think it's done with considerable kind of tongue in
cheek.
It's not the sort of techno babble, which is just the right of
putting tech in brackets.
Do you know what I mean?
And someone else filling in later.
It's purposeful, I think.
And I think it does what it sets out to do.
All right, I think we should go in.
What do you think?
I think we should.
I mean, I genuinely feel like, of all the season 5 episodes, we
probably could have watched for me to, as my end to this season.
This may have been the worst choice we could have made, but let's
give it a go.
Okay.
All right.
I will count as in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
I think we might...
I mean, I think, like, no, I think we might have done the dullest
episode of series 2 and the dullest episode of series one.
We did the dullest episode of the alternative universe.
Oh, certainly.
We did the Dallas one of those and...
Why don't we keep picking the shit ones?
I don't know.
Do you remember the one with the Talosians?
Yeah, that was a really dullest one.
That's right.
Flashy images now.
Be advised. advised.
See, there's flashing images, but you don't get that on 90s
track.
Okay.
I, the other thing that, so this, uh, this is establishing that, of
course, book and Michael's relationship has broken, has broken
down, he has been he's been sentenced.
Do you know what I mean?
He was previously sentenced to some kind of, you know, um, some
forced labour thing, not 1st labour because it's the federation
and where or 2 enlightened for that.
But he was sentenced to some kind of sentence for doing what he
did at the end of series 4 and their relationships broken down.
This is them on the planet Trill, getting, look at it.
It's barely... barely different from equilibrium into a sign.
It's a bit more expensive in the set is a bit larger.
Into your side.
It was just stockcate centre before we took it with a sort of
puzzle, in it?
That was it.
But the reason we say that is that we see mole put the spider on a
deer, and now we go 15 hours earlier, which is Molenlock getting
the spider.
This green man, what, were they both green?
The one in the middle, yeah.
He's the exactly the same alien from who mourns to mourn.
Their makeup is so similar.
He's a brain.
Oh, is that a brain?
Yeah.
And they're liquid.
Oh, they take liquid form sometimes.
So sometimes he's sort of transparent.
So this is mole and lock.
He's a...
Nathan.
I'm disappointed somehow.
I don't know what I expected the breed to look like, but it just
looks like a 90s trek alien, doesn't it?
When he's green and transparent.
He looks pretty impressive.
And when they're on the, they don't ruin the brain by unmasking
them, which is a trick.
It's pretty good.
And he was one of the 3 criminals that Michael was being
transported with in the shuttle, the ones that have the fight in
the mess room, in the, um, context is for Kings, which I think is
the most recent discovery that we did.
Do you remember?
Ah, yeah, yeah.
When it started with them in the shuttle.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right.
So, that's Elias 2 factors. to bring that back in.
Yeah, yeah, there he is.
See, I think he's also weirdly hot out of makeup and so I'm not
squeaked out by this kiss.
I'm glad you said our makeup.
Jesus Christ.
I mean, given the things that you've said, oh, Star Trek.
I think he manages to be a bit hard here.
He's kind of sweet, I think.
He's very cute.
Who is this lady?
So that's mine.
And it turns out that Mole is, I can't remember now because it's
been 2 years and so much has happened, you know, 65 episodes of
Star Trek, 55.
But she has some kind of relationship with Booker.
Not a sexual relationship.
Ultimately, what are they trying to achieve?
They're trying to put together the 6 segments for what?
So they are trying to, um, yeah, they're trying to get the, um
they're trying to get the progenitors technology so they can sell
it to the highest bidder so that they can stop running.
We find out later that, um, that they have, the brain are chasing
them and trying to kill them.
So now we're back in the present day and the spider has gone off a
deer's uniform and is now crawling around their quarters.
That is an unusually subtle effect for Star Trek discovery, isn't
it?
That little story.
I like it.
And it's like really high tech because we're in the 32nd century.
Oh, look, it's so gray.
Oh, little gray. with the names.
Gray and Adira.
Oh, that was so lovely, that episode.
They've broken up at this and Gray is back on trill.
Because remember, yeah, because Gray is back on trill, Gray's Gray
got a body, remember, at the end of series three?
And so they've broken up and a deer is still on board.
Was it dearable before?
I don't remember the hat.
No, they always had, they always had like short cropped hair.
Yeah.
Ah, okay.
Okay, so this scene is, the thing that's happening in this scene
is not only are we having the spider going around the room, but
everyone is rolling their eyes at Rainer.
Like rain is intervening here at this point.
He's been in charge.
She's come on the bridge and he is being a prick.
He's like really rude to Reese when Reese advances his opinion
which makes it important that later on he has to win Reese over
you know, at the end.
Why doesn't Burnham just say, you know, you're better.
That's what she does.
That's it.
Watch.
That's exactly what she does.
Well, she she, she goes, let's go into it at my ready room.
Do you know what I mean?
And then she tells him he's being approved.
Oh my god, just see her enormous eyebrow.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But all are they doing?
Excuse me.
But Tilly does it.
Detmer and O Shakun do it.
You know, like they're all kind of rolling their eyes at him.
My ready room now.
And of course, excuse me.
Can I not walk for a at all?
You don't have to wait Phoebe.
Lazy.
Well, I'll tell you what, convenience culture in the future.
I wouldn't walk anywhere.
It's great so great.
Nathan, what's wrong with his ears?
I don't know.
He is a something.
He is a Kelleran.
Uh, and I mean, that's kind of great, mate.
It is pretty good.
Because they do genuinely look like ears.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It looks real, doesn't it?
Like the, the, that look really fleshy.
And so this is them arguing about her leadership style, that she's
familiar and collaborative.
It's the same kind of leadership that we get in strange new
worlds.
You know, when Pike will go options and everyone will contribute
and he'll listen, you know, that and Saru, and at her, they've all
got this collaborative leadership style.
And even though in Kurtzman track, generally speaking, the
captain's chair is like Kirk's chair, it's in the middle of the
bridge, whereas in 90s track, the captain's chair has chairs next
to it, but in 90s track, the captain is still more of a king
whereas here the captain is just like an excellent kind of manager
I think.
And I...
Holly Hunts, I, Jesus Christ.
I mean, that's the most relaxed queen you've ever seen.
That's right.
And so this, but the issue with this conversation is the issue
with this episode is it all has a foregone conclusion.
Of course it does.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Well why are we watching it?
Well, Star Trek tends to be like that, though, just generally
doesn't it?
Not good stuff, right?
Good Star Trek can surprise you.
Yeah, yeah, not always.
And so Stamets, they've decided, is immune to the time loop
because he was immune to the previous one in series one.
I've just decided that.
That was great.
And like his role in that. season one episode.
It was so good.
And because you don't know.
Well, because he was still in his imperial bastard phase, wasn't
he?
No, no one wanted to talk.
We get a reference to that here, of course, because we do go back
to the 1st season and we get a reference to that.
And so the fact that they can just beam back to the bridge, which
is what they're about.
No, they're to beam to engineering or something.
Are they going to beam somewhere and it doesn't work?
And it's the fact that they were beaming that makes them, you know
kind of immune to the time loop.
So that that local personalised beaming thing is just a, you know
it's a, it's...
Oh my god, did you see that?
That room was full of rocks.
Did you see?
Even in the 2nd century.
Yeah, 0 my god, look at the surround Saru.
They're everywhere.
Tilly from it's like they've blown up a quarry.
Oh, and that's another thing that they've done to indicate that
this is the past.
The communications guy on the ship originally.
So this is from, I think it's either from the 1st episode, 2nd
episode of series 3 or the end of series two.
She's out there as the Red Angel bringing them into the future.
And like you, Grainer says, that's very confusing.
Like, so...
I actually did I was surprised that they didn't make the various
time zones more visually distinctive than they do.
He's still the ship.
I mean, it's kind of the same shit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but like, you know, I was saying the other
day, wasn't I, about the lazy people watching TV these days
sometimes we need a bit of help, you know, especially when you're
trying to tell a story in several times.
Well, what I thought was a little bit of a shame.
What they did there to make the season 2 season 3 time zone
different from the season 5 time zone is they had Christopher on
the bridge as the communications officer at the beginning of the
episode when we go back onto the bridge.
Uh, it's Bryce, uh, who is unconscious.
You know me.
I don't know who those people are.
I know that's a mean, really designed for someone who doesn't know
who these people are.
I know, I know, I know.
But it is a shame that we don't get Georgie back for a 2nd or Ash
or...
Come on, no, I mean, it would have made the episode, just one
third.
That's right. would have been pretty good.
If she could have just come in and got between them when they were
beating each other up and she beats them both up or something like
that.
We get Jet Reno kind of playing that role, I think, in this
episode.
Why do you think they made that decision with the new character to
make him so grumpy and serious?
Oh, I think it was to contrast him with Saru, to make him be the
not Saru, essentially, and to...
But he was her previous number one.
And so now we have a number one who is prickly.
He's a friend of Admiral Vance.
I can't remember the backstory exactly, but his whole family were
killed by the Breen.
That's important.
He was a captain, but he had to accept early retirement.
He was persuaded by Vance to accept early retirement because he
was a bit of a prick.
And so it's to set up this conflict, I think, and to make this
episode about something more than just a time loop, essentially.
I think I would have had more fun with the time loop and the, you
know, the details from the past.
Look at the rocks in the sand. rocks in the sand, lights are
flashing.
Oh, look, the camera's basically stationary there.
It ain't moving, not a normal discovery episode.
Look, it's still...
Now it's still because we're out of the thing.
We've got it established or in dry dark now, and so we've got the
steel camera.
Who knew they could hold the camera still with discovery?
Well, there we go.
I think that they were going, do you know what?
Well, one last 90s trek episode. for Discovery, you know?
So what they do.
So this is the beginning.
This is what relativity does, of course, because relativity
depicts Janeway coming on board the thing for the 1st time.
Oh yeah.
I love that bit.
That interesting.
And then we get after discovery as well.
So look, beautiful smiling Michael.
I know, keep smiling.
She barely smiles in this episode, you know.
He's a prick to this guy to get rid of him.
And then she she goes, yeah, nice one.
You know, I think we were just having this conversation.
And she kind of goes, nice one.
He kind of goes, yeah, I hate that sake.
So which I kind of like, I think that's great.
Nathan, do you know, in sort of true knight is track style here.
I'm going to keep making the comparisons with this episode.
That backdrop of the bridge there isn't that great.
No, it is out of focus.
I think it's the effects wall.
Like, I think it they probably are in front of the effects wall
because the effects wall is normally outside that set to do the
rocks going past the window or the warp effect or whatever.
So that's stunning camera.
You know what?
My issue with this relationship is, I feel like in discovery
they've learned how to do conflict in really interesting ways, you
know, in with big characters.
Yeah.
And so to bring it all down, to make it all this containers. people
in a room, essentially, who are very incredibly serious. yeah just
don't understand.
And so where are we now?
So we always come back to this same spot in the room, the same
spot in the room because that's where they were trying to beam
out.
This is and it's a bottle show as well.
This is the battle with control from series 2 of discovery.
So controls the big sort of scary computeroid thing that, you know
Leland is part of and stuff.
Section 31 is involved.
They're doing the, they're doing the lower decks thing.
It's not a time edit.
It's not a neural attack. not a neural attack.
I'm sorry.
Ma and I would do it. with better gangs.
But he just says, shit, it's a time bug, and I always love it when
they swear.
And the real name for a time buggies. of course, it's called a
crenum chronophage.
Krenim?
What, from the year of hell?
Because the time bug, the time people, right?
See?
There you go.
You're even referring to non-istract.
And I think the temporal war.
Like we're talking about the Temple War.
This is the 32nd century.
When is Daniels from?
In Enterpace?
30 something century.
And what about what about Braxton?
Like he's 400 years in the past?
He's like 500 years?
in Voyager's future.
And so I know.
Back then we were like, 0 my god, that's so far. historic, it's
like Shakespeare.
Whatever, Braxton.
You're like Russ Wilson from TMG, you know.
That's right.
So this too, where she explains why Stammets, Wayne Stammets, is
immune to the thing.
And he just goes, oh, and she goes, never mind. it's fine.
Can I ask if they are, if this time bug is... are you complaining
about?
Disable the craft.
Yeah, yeah.
Is there not an easier way of disabling a craft than cycling it
through various times?
You don't get a time loop show, I think, is really the thing.
Well, we've never done that before.
That's right.
So this is reason...
Who's Zora?
She doesn't exist.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, bulls.
So this is, of course, the end of series 2 where he gets impaled
but Stammets is aware of the time loop at this point, but Hugh
isn't.
And so that's why Hugh says you should be in an induced coma, but
of course he's conscious.
And he even says, oh, yeah, I forgot how much this hurt.
Um, so this is us watching Stamets a pre- uh, experience a time
loop.
And now we're back in this beautiful room, which seems to have a
different table in it for some reason.
Is this is this the room they later on to say, right, we're always
going to end up backing, yeah, deck 13.
And then eventually they actually cut that.
Once they meet Stammets, they say, well, let's all meet in 13 and
so we cut them reappearing in this room.
And this might be the last time we see it.
So we're all sort of cycling through um old ideas of what it could
be and we're sort of jumping to various bots in time.
I still can't see anyone having fun in this episode.
It'll come.
I'll tell you the scene.
It was the scene where Stamets and Burnham meet up with each other
and there's just such a warmth between the 2 of them.
I'm like, yeah, thank you.
More of that, Lisa.
See, I like the, my favourite scene is Stammets and Reno, and it's
where Stammets tries to get Reno's advice on how to deal with a
time loop by saying, hypothetically, it's a hypothetical situation
in case.
So this is the end of... get back to it.
This is the end of series 3 when Asira is taking over the ship.
Asyra is the head of the emerald chain.
Remember the green woman.
We've done some of this weird kind of 3 part season finale to
series three.
It's what eventually resolves the burn.
At this point, they're still wearing their discovery uniforms, um
and, um, uh, Saru's the captain, and she isn't yet.
Uh, yeah.
I feel like this was a more fun episode.
You'd have this, this, what's the old man's name again?
Rainer.
Oh, you'd have him sort of being more critical about various
stages of discussion.
Yeah, that would...
But I love and then Reno comes in. like he's about to shoot them.
She comes in and shoots him, then she comes in and punches some
guy and just says, get a better helmet and then she sort of
confronts this guy, which is pretty good.
But it's the big, it's the scene between her and Stamets, which I
think is the funniest.
And she is great.
She is pretty good.
She's, oh, Roy, I don't know, I don't know.
I don't think she's that funny.
Oh, really?
I just, I feel, I feel like they've learned a lot of lessons from
Discovery and they put in similar but better characters in other
shows.
You know, the woman from, um, Strange News Wells with the crazy
hair.
Oh, hell yeah.
What's her name?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, come on, she's hilarious.
She is hilarious.
Marathon.
But Jed Reno's, like, there's some really great stuff between
Stammets and Reno particularly kind of early in series three.
I think the 2 of them are really good together.
Um, and she's properly showy, I think.
Already fairly arid.
Do we need another dry character?
What do you mean by Aaron, though?
Because it's full of emotional warmth.
You complain that it's so full of emotional warmth.
So now you get a slightly asserved bit character and you complain
about that too.
Well, it's the emotional warmth inness.
Will you point it out to me?
It's, you know, everyone on the bridge loves at one another and
rain is not playing ball and that's why he needs to learn a
valuable.
That kind of emotional.
Oh, how tedious.
Good grief.
Oh, why a sheep cross?
Oh, I did like this.
The future's not ours to see.
I was just a little girl.
This is kind of a reference in a way to Discovery's final fate, and
it's depicted in a short trek, which I've mentioned before called
Calypso, which I think is like a beautiful 10 minutes of Star Trek
like absolutely stunningly good, and it's set in Discovery's Far
Future.
And that's the 1st time we see Zora, actually, is in that before
she turns up in the actual show.
Those Discovery's final fate.
It ends up adrift in like in the future where everyone has gone
and a guy turns up on the ship.
It's really, it's beautiful.
Like it's stunningly beautiful.
It's just a drift and we don't know why.
And then...
Well, so they told you the ending, in a short strik before we got
to the ending.
Well, in fact, they go a bit of a way to make sure that ending
happens in the final episode further than I think they really
needed to.
You remember that short trip we did?
That needs to be our end point.
Yeah, yeah.
And I don't think they had to.
Or at least show the possibility.
But it gave us a 1st hint of the 32nd century, it gave us our 1st
hint of Zora.
Did they manage to, while sort of leading up to that, tell us how
wonderful Michael Burnham was for 2 hours as well?
Yeah, they did.
It's really good I bet they did.
So she ends up married to book and having a lovely son who's a
Starfleet Starfleet captain and, you know...
I remember, so you know, with the gray in her hair, I'm thinking
she look really cool.
They have quite good ageing makeup in the 32nd century, which is
kind of nice.
What the hell's going on in the effects wall now?
So that is Federation headquarters, but it's had the shit blown
out of it by the green, who are heading off in that they're in
that big green ship over to the right.
And they have these massive fuck off ships, these huge
dreadnaughts towards the end, which are pretty impressive.
So this is what's at stake.
Okay?
Because we've been in the time loop and we haven't escaped it
Molen Lock end up getting the progenitors technology, selling it
to the brain and the brain use it to destroy the federation.
I think if this was an episode that was walking through, I don't
know, the past history of Duty Space 9, I'd be all over this shit
but I'm going, what is this?
Where are we?
I don't recognise this at all?
Maybe I'm just not inured enough in discovery.
And again, I think with because Discovery is being broadcast into
a world where all of its episodes are always available and always
have been.
Like since 1st broadcast, you've been able to go back and watch
any episode of Discovery at any time.
And that wasn't the Deep Space Night. in these moments, like big
moments.
I don't know.
Like, do you remember when we go back in time and trials and
tribulations, everyone's like, 0 my god, it's the Enterprise.
How amazing. lets go and have some fun.
We're seeing all these moments and it's just like, oh, yeah
remember that happened?
Yeah, oh, and that happened as well.
It's like, this is a big moment.
Like, I don't know. this is a big moment and this is the
conversation that saves the day where he reaches out and actually
talks to her and she talks about how she felt when she was on the
ship and it's the fact that he is able to tell you young Michael
Burnham that that's how she felt and to talk about her as a person
that enables that persuades her to stand down and let him do his
job.
So this scene, even though, like it's, you know, like it's pivotal
because it tells us what's at stake, but it also tells us how the
episode's going to be solved, I think.
There's an attempt, yeah, there's an attempt.
Oh, also very just 2 people stand in a room.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You've seen Star Trek before, though.
I mean, even Starfleet Academy is very often just 2 people talking
in a room.
I'm not used to this in Kerstman Trek, though.
It does actually happen more than you think.
Oh, is that right?
Yeah, yeah.
They just distract you by whooping the camera.
Just so serious.
Look at the pair of them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I know what you mean. a fun time travel episode.
Have some joy in your heart.
But they're like, look at that.
She smiled, beautiful, Michael.
She's so enthusiastic.
Yeah.
So, and we've solved the problem as well.
And it was partly, was it Rainer who came up with a solution?
Are you sold on this character, this man?
Um, well, you know, we've seen it before.
Do you know what I mean?
It is actually quite a good foil for Michael because it is the
opposite of, you know, it's the kind of thing that everyone says
about Michael, which is that she's too, It's all very loving and
it's all very collaborative and and that kind of thing and
everyone's very nice and everyone loves each other, the things
that you complain about.
And they drop him in, not to be that.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, he's you.
This is reaching.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that's right.
I mean, he'll be found to be wrong.
All this, let's all have a high school musical group hug, you
know.
Well, speaking of high school musical, his stammets in his scene
with Jet Reno, and he is doing a good job of being a bad actor
because he has to pretend that he hasn't just popped in here from
a time loop.
And so now he's asking for advice.
What would you do if the ship was caught in a time loop?
And it's just hypothetical and stuff.
And then she says, Stamets, are you caught in a time loop right
now?
Which I thought, that's pretty cool.
Which is okay.
No.
It's kind of a very lower deck sort of thing, you know what I
mean?
Like it is because being caught in a time loop is something that
happens to these stupid characters like literally all the time.
Yeah, which I just think is pretty great.
And it's pretty great.
That's what I know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
What?
Me?
Now I complain in all in all those episodes where weird things
start happening to people and nobody says, have you noticed that
weird examples have not happened to that person?
Jack Reno just goes, you're in a time loop.
Of course I'm not.
And so she got out.
So I also like the thing.
So the thing that he does now, which he says, sport, spore breach
mushrooms will grow on your lungs.
Get out of here.
They all go out and then he does it again.
And then the 2nd time he does it, he says, it worries me that they
don't realise that that's not a thing.
They don't know that that's not a thing.
And then when we're back in season one and he wants to clear the
room, he just comes out in and says, I'm really grumpy right now.
Everyone, go.
And they all flee.
And Rainer says, you know, that was quicker than the previous
spore breach things.
So again, there's a commentary on where he's come from.
No, I know they're not doing this with the new character, but look
at the walls between them in this.
This is what I see, I like this, and I want to be with these
people, and they're giving each other something in the scene, which
is a smile.
Yeah, yeah.
And Michael smiled. you know what I mean?
Like holy crap, just more of that, please.
Now, again, I know I'm in the wrong place to complain about all
the technobabble, but oh, boy.
But this is not the techno babble where it's, you know, the
Verteron field and stuff like that.
He's saying it will rip all of our molecules in different
directions for all eternity.
Like that's a fabulous way of staying what the stakes are, right?
And all of the techno babble here is like more like that than, you
know, field status nominal and and all of that sort of crap that
we usually have.
And it's all designed to make the plot work.
Like it makes fun of the fact that this, this time bubble is so
engineered to make the, the character thing land.
You know, it makes no sense really.
Uh, it's entirely here just so that um, so that Rainer can learn a
valuable lesson.
Oh, here are the lights again.
Because you just grab the information out of the air there. put it
off into the iPad.
Oh, would it be lovely if you could do that?
So good.
I love it.
The bad thing that, you know, the display that she just has on the
screen.
That's what we have instead of tricorders in the 32nd century is
those hands-up displays.
It's so good.
Do you know, I, I don't think I'm used to bottle shows in Curtis
and Track.
I did.
I think that shocked me as well.
We don't go anywhere.
Literally not going anywhere.
We're not going to be seeing any crazy weird, you know, alien
planets that we normally, so the other thing I usually complain.
I'm never happy, am I?
Oh, I love that cat.
What's his name Grudge.
She.
Grudge.
She's a queen, remember?
She's a queen.
So this scene, of course, the 2 of them had their awkwardnesses
that we saw in the previously on and she's coming in here hoping
not to see book and this is more awkward because they're in the
relationship.
So this is series four.
Like, she's just been made captain, according to him in dialogue.
And this...
Look at him, Nathan. couldn't she just take a moment out and have
sex with him?
I mean, look at him.
They do kiss, though.
Oh, I would have gone further.
Sorry, fuck the time, Luke.
Look at him.
Just look at him.
Jeez, why does she believe it?
I love looking at her smile.
Look at her.
You know me.
Precise.
Look at the chemistry between the 2 of them.
Was the separation because of all the that happened in series
four?
Yeah, yeah. earlier on in series 5 where they kind of go, I don't
know how to be with you and they spend time together, they solve
the space problem, but they conclude that they can't really be
together.
Could you ever imagine saying to that?
I don't know how to be with you.
He betrayed her, remember?
And he went off...
I know he's beautiful though.
And this is the beginning of us working together back to this.
Do you know what I mean?
That's how this works.
And that's what this scene is doing, is...
It's the only conclusion of season 5 could make, that's right.
It would be that she would get back.
Yeah, yeah.
And so we're heading in that direction from here on in, but it
starts here.
Oh my god.
I know.
We're going up.
I know, it's out of myself, is it?
This is 9 straight, I'm telling you now.
Yeah.
Come on.
Spore breach.
Yeah, I'm a little disturbed that my crew doesn't know that isn't
a real thing.
And just that very stammets look, and now she's, now it's just
yelling at people because she's so funny, Nathan.
You know, look at these engineering sets, right?
It's like sort of gun metal gray, isn't it, from Enterprise?
Yeah, yeah.
And I, it just goes to show how far they've come just in Kurtzman
trick, right?
I mean, think of strange new worlds and that enormous engineering
set.
Well, that's mostly the effects wall, to be fair, but it is an
enormous set.
And this is not really engineering because this ship doesn't have
the warp couring the same way or, you know, the focus is.
A cup of time, do you think?
when we look back and go, 0 my god, how primitive...
I think, you know, this episode doesn't look super expensive and
it does look, I mean, it's only 2 years ago.
And early discovery, I think, still looks astounding.
And I think it's not just because of the money.
It's because it's creative.
Enterprise.
I told you this was all blues this episode. blues and browns
look.
You know, those sets are so streets ahead of anything that you get
on 90s track because they're so dynamic and there's lots of
lighting and different panels and stuff.
I think there is some dynamism in enterprises sets.
It's just that boring colour.
I think I love the engineering that you crawl all over.
That is kind of cool.
But this is the this is the special corridor that they introduce
in series two.
Like they have they have enough money to build another discovery
corridor and say this is their best corridor, which is why they
keep meeting here.
No, they built a corridor.
They wanted to show unlike 90s straight.
We could run in this show from one end of the corridor to the
other.
We haven't got to go around corners all the time.
You've seen Tilly and Michael in their disco shirts, like shirts
which have disco on them for discovery running through the
corridors for exercise.
Oh, yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, so you remind me of all fun times I've had with Discovery in
the past.
Why don't we ever choose those episodes?
So you peaked series five.
Can I just say?
over and over again.
I did, I did. that's right Sorry about that.
Sorry, Joe. Sorry to go, though.
Actually, maybe there's a minute series 5 episode.
You are responsible for your own pain as usual.
This is Lorca's ship, and again, Saru and Landry are on our way
mission, so we're not going to see them.
Landry is, of course, the other cylon, remember who got torn to
pieces by the Data Gray?
Okay.
How do you remember?
She has the best death in all of discovery.
It just eats her.
It gets ripped to pieces by the time of grade.
And so we even she, though, right?
I felt something.
She was such a bitch.
This guy, no, you haven't seen him in any other episode yet.
I don't know why you're expecting a relationship with him at this
point.
So I'm just used to some charisma from these people.
Yeah, so, so what, what's happening now is, of course, we are in
the last time loop, and the difference with this is we can now
break the timeline of space reasons.
Right?
I love this man.
What's his name?
It's so good.
So he comes in and notice that.
He is not talking to her because she's a mutineer and he doesn't
quite know how to react to her, but he does have to tell and
because she's got different hair.
He saw camp.
He goes, red is definitely your colour. is periodically gay.
And don't you remember in the episode of Starfleet Academy that
had a saurian as well, who was welcoming the students in to have
their medicals done, who was clearly gay?
Now, the thing that I think is great about this is no one has
mentioned that Michael's on board at this point, and it never
occurred to me that he would, she would meet her, and of course
she would, but and it was the obvious thing.
This is what always happened to these episodes.
I never thought it would happen that never, ever occurred to me.
It's never been open as a possibility.
None of them have discussed it.
And you suddenly realise how incredibly different. the details are
great.
Again, it just isn't very fun.
I think no.
I mean, I love the performance difference.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And the look of her.
Just the look of her from series one with the shorter hair. and I
mean, look at the fear she's so contained and so fierce. and it
was so kind of self-hating.
And the thing is, the reason that she's like that with this
Michael, the reason that she can't be persuaded is that she's she
cannot believe that she's got those 4 pips.
She can't believe that she's captain.
Because how could that ever have happened?
It's kind of sad, isn't it?
That's sad.
And so Michael gets to say it like she's unconscious.
So the other thing that I think is really great.
So again, we've talked before about fist fights on Star Trek, and
they are a cheap way of getting action happening, but we've had 2
pretty good fist fights here, and this is a fist fight that
matters because it's between the 2 of these people, you know.
It's not just the bucket heads.
I think the, how they disguise the stunt people here.
Oh, really?
The files interesting is so clever.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because you can't tell at any point, can you?
And look how fierce Michael is, and they're the 2 of them.
Their faces have been shot in that special effect shot there.
I mean, I do like girl on girl action.
I'd say that loud.
I like it when Michael beats men up quite a lot.
I complained in that episode.
Do you remember when she was fighting that green woman for ages
for like 15 minutes?
I was like, is this ever going to win?
This was just long enough.
Yeah, well, take 90% off while I say that's true.
So the other thing too, which I think is really good, is my call
who we've kind of forgotten at this point was brought up by
Vulcans.
Like nothing really has been mentioned about it for the last 3
years.
It's not that important.
She's brought up by, you know, Sarek and Amanda.
And so to have our Michael be the one who does the Vulcan nerve
pinch on much more Vulcan Michael, I think is a surprise and quite
a good choice, another reminder of them being the same character.
And of course, getting giving her the opportunity to give a speech
to a younger self.
She can't hear it and won't remember it.
So it doesn't matter, but like I think that's worth doing as
well.
Like, we get a sense of how Michael has changed over this time in
this episode, which I think is pretty good.
I just imagine, like, imagine if Giorgio went back in time and met
herself from series one as the emperor, she'd be, imagine the bond
moths that would be flying between, I reckon, I reckon Emperor
Giorgio from the past would have been pretty contemptuous of our
Giorgio.
She'd be a poor... she.
You sold out.
Oh my god.
And you telling me you don't have men and women at your feet. sex
slaves.
Come on now.
So here we have pushback from Stamets with Rainer and, you know
Stamets, but Rainer is showing some understanding of Stamets
already. you know what I mean?
Is he?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, no, because he's saying, he's saying, look, I thought that
you were the science guy who liked being the person who everyone
depended on and that that was part of your deal.
And Stammets is saying, no, actually, you know, I'm really quite
stressed and stuff like that.
And like, you can see him learning and trying to connect.
There was that great line in the, in the, in the, um, in the
previously on where, um, where Rainer says connecting isn't what
in my skill set, do you know, one of my skills, and Michael says
no, connection isn't a skill, it's a choice.
And I think that's like that's properly good and that's obviously
what Star Trek is about in discovery on some level. like on every
level.
Do you know what I mean?
The planetary level.
You do things our touchy fevy way or you're out. you know, that's
the root beer that is the Federation.
Do you know what I mean?
He doesn't want to hug them all.
Maybe he wants to be an arsehole.
No, but he's still doing his job.
But he learns.
Look, like Stavitz is enjoying the fact that Rainer has learned
and it's Rainer, obviously, who has to talk down Reese, who he
shut down before, and has to talk down other Michael, too.
Look how contained Tilly's hair is back in the past. past hair.
That's right She got like those fabulous waterfall in the future
right?
isn't she?
cascading from her head.
Oh, who was that hot man at the back there?
So that's the black guy or the Asian guy?
Yeah, that's beautiful.
That's Bryce.
He was the communication officer.
But he's in it less and less from series 3 or 4 onwards, and he
altered...
Jetmar and Owo.
I can't tell the difference from season one to season 5.
Oh, no, they had much different hair in season five, and Dem had a
small, had a smaller thing on her head.
She's got her big 23rd century cyborg thing and she has a much
less one.
I love that.
What was that robot woman's name?
She's fabulous.
Oh, Airiam.
The one where she dies.
Oh, boy.
So good.
That's a great episode. it's so good And so that's central to
this.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, because, like, this is a space problem that is solved
because these things are so cheesy though, aren't they?
The, like, little character beats that she knows about them, that
she's learned about them.
But she solved the problem by the sort of connection that she was
saying that Rainer had to practice.
This is what we do on the ship.
We reach out to one another.
We know one another, we connect with one another.
This is a space problem that's solved precisely by that because
she's able to convince them that she's to be trusted because she
knows them and cares about them.
What do you think she is?
I mean, do they think she's someone who's come on and put a wig on
or something?
Like, who do they think this Michael Burnham is then?
If she's not from the shape?
Shap shifter parasite neural thing?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, oh, you have watched Star Trek before, haven't you?
But she could be lying when she goes, oh, I know when you die.
Yeah, yeah, but what she says is she says that you willingly give
your life to save everyone.
I've seen how you die.
You get taken over by control and you let yourself die rather than
harming your friends.
And they all say, no, no, that would never happen.
She would fight, and Ariam says, no, that's what I would do.
And so, you know me.
No, a hypothetical scenario.
It's about it's about trust.
That's what all this is about.
It's because she's able to connect with them.
Even though they are suspicious of her, her real her, you know
specialist Vernum from series one.
She's able to convince them because she's someone who reaches out
and knows them.
And so there's that question that, that, that, um, that Rainer
asks at the beginning, what if your method is the wrong method?
And then we go to a, a scene break and let that question hang in
the air and this whole episode has led 1st to her being able to
demonstrate that it works.
And then more importantly, Rainer being able to demonstrate that
it works.
And so what I think is good about this, even though it's very
earnest and it's a bottle show and it's not, it's the usual kind
of level of discovery spectacular, but nothing kind of
breathtaking, is that it's a well-written script that's doing
something in every scene.
I think it's properly correct.
No, but would you rather watch something worthy, but dull, or
would you rather watch something, you know, energetic, but
throwaway.
I would like to do I would like Star Trek to do both things.
Do you know what I mean?
I'd like Star Trek B worthy sometimes and be fun sometimes.
I knew from the 1st scene of this episode where we were going to
end up, which was Michael Burnham being right, because that's what
this show always does.
But she's writing this particular thing.
She's right about this connection thing.
Look, there she is smiling at Eric.
We've established all of this stuff before.
Because it's the feet of the show.
It's what the show is essentially about, you know.
And it needs to be restated every year, I think.
This is the season where they, you know, this is the episode where
they do that and that's why they bring him in so that we have an
so that we can have an episode about that this year.
I could just imagine a version of that scene where she goes on the
bridge, just infused with wear and and like great warmth, but it's
again, it's so serious.
It is serious, but I think she's very warm in it.
Like, I think she is very warm in it.
It's Saniqua. smiling at people.
Like I don't think it gets warmer than that.
So, so this is the counterpoint of the scene where he shuts him
down and tells him to shut up and not to speculate and not to
contribute in the bridge discussion, and now he has to show that
he knows him, and, you know, he has to reach out the way that
Michael reaches out, something personal, you know.
You love the curves.
It's like, well, he knows.
But he's a classic, but do you know what it's the curves of?
It's the curves of Kurt Enterprise that we were talking about.
He loves the curves of the Edgeprise ship, and of course he's on
discovery, which is, you know, a triangle and a circle and
everything's flat.
So it is a kind of slide digger, what discovery looks like.
I think.
This show really ain't for me, is it?
I think it's good.
It's properly doing fun things, I think.
You think this is fun.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because it's time with these people.
It's time with these people.
It's a story about something.
It's a time loop where we get to learn more about Mike or where we
get to see this relationship. which is central to this season
being established properly.
You know, like I think it's got...
That proves to me that aim for me because I don't want to spend
more time with Michael Burnham.
I planned plenty of time with her in the 1st 4 years.
Let's give some of the other characters a bit of lie.
And I don't need the show to reiterate its touchy feeling.
I love the touchy feeling.
I don't like that at all.
So yeah, this, it just, it's kind of the antithesis of what I want
from Star Trek, isn't it?
Yeah, I mean, like there are lighter episodes, there are episodes
that focus on other characters.
Do you know what I mean?
This is a bottle show, which is essentially about these 2
characters.
And so no one else gets much of a looking.
Do you know what I mean?
That is this episode.
But it's not this show, generally though.
Again, though, again, like, I'm not crazy about Burnham, and I
really don't like this new character.
So I'm at a disadvantage here that this episode is essentially a
load of two-hander scenes with 2 gators and I'm not enjoying
watching.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, look at Michael.
There you go.
Tilly.
Hot man.
Yeah.
Okay.
And so here we go.
So base problem solved for the episode.
Is that it, though?
Just a bit of lightning through the view screen.
I mean, come on, you can do better than this.
That's for going to warp.
Is that it?
Okay.
Yeah.
Sorry.
The spectacular effects are coming.
Oh my god.
Isoline chips.
Oh, straight. there we go What are we doing?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we're picking up the thing.
Oh, here we go.
This is pretty gross, isn't it?
Like his hand is already like super old and he's sort of old
enough anyway, but now we're back, where we were and we've broken
the time loop.
And he's the biggest an equal smile of the episode, I think.
Lovely.
Keep it coming.
Yeah.
It was so visually, though.
That was on, that was quite an underwhelming out of the loop
wasn't it?
Yeah, because they just go into war.
It just sort of went, well, it's the same thing that we've been
seeing every episode.
You know what I mean?
Every time they went through the loop.
So it just ends with them turning up in the same place in the
thing again.
Nathan, possibly, you spend many a discovery episode going, oh, my
God, look, there isn't that much of that here. gorgeous.
You didn't say that just saying, did you?
No.
And I think probably the only visual, visually spectacular bit is
the bit through the viewscreen with the Destroyed Federation thing
and that's not really that spectacular.
It's a good effect, but, and, you know, it's meaningful because
that's the where the show just been.
Just use the old battle scenes and stuff.
You know, they were in the battle earlier.
They could have used it to just sit through the window.
Do you know what I mean?
They don't do that.
We just see it through the window.
Because they're properly adhering to the bottle show thing.
Do you know what I mean?
we're just in discovery for this episode.
I'm stopping just like you used to be.
Oh, yes, there you go. seeing her was a good reminder.
We're always changing.
See, I just think, look at how beautiful that woman is.
Just stunning.
Yes, so where do we go now?
That's it.
I think that's it.
Is it?
Yeah.
So how's the plot progressed for this arc?
So we've found one thing, I think, at the moment, we have
discovered that we've just spent 6 minutes. 6 hours in the time
loop.
So we're not like poor old Kelsey Grammar who's trapped in the
time loop for 100s of years or whatever.
And that's really it.
I think you know, I don't know.
Is there a great heist episode, you know, where they have to go
down on a planet?
It's just very adventury and lots of, you know, strain.
Like, it's a little bit like Strangey Worlds in the tone of it.
And you see, there's discovery is the the Star Trek series that
lasts the longest, right, that goes for the longest amount of time
it's also the show that changes the most.
Yeah, yeah.
And it changes the most deep space nine, I think, would be the
other one.
Um, uh, you know, like obviously every episode of every season of
um, every season of uh, um, Picard is different.
But there has been a break of over 2 years between season 4 and
season five.
Like it's 25 months.
It's a massive, massive break.
Is that a writer strike?
There's a rider strike, I think, and then we have difficulty.
And where COVID kind of happens.
So season 4 airs from the end of 2021 to 2022 and you can see
evidence that they're in production.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, um, there's that hilarious scene where all of the socially
distant Starfleet Academy kids, you know, the 1st new Starfleet
Academy class. happens and Michael gives the commencement speech
and they're all socially distant in the scene.
But it does, it doesn't seem to affect the way the show looks, I
think, generally speaking, but it is a massive break.
And so this is really just like, let's get it in and sort of wrap
everything up quickly.
It was never going to last.
See the respect, Nathan there with how she sat in the seat. sat
upright, all those trek fans will be so happy, won't they?
Probably not though.
That is actually, again, just a recreation of the scene, like
almost a reshoot of the scene at the end of series 4 when she 1st
sits in the captain's chair as captain.
You know, it's that exact sort of shot with her smiling in the
captain's chair.
So again, it's reestablishing her character too, I think.
I'm so used to, um, overblown spectacle in discovery.
Yeah, like from the very 1st episode, yeah.
Astonishing, um, shot of her in the cell when the ship's blown up
and the shell, you know, from that point on, that I was genuinely
baffled watching this, that it was so contained.
Yeah.
But, you know, like, oh, I can't complain too much about that
because I love 90s Trek, and all of 90s Trek is 2 people standing
around it.
So I think I can only, I can only put like my dislike of that
episode to the fact that, yeah, I wasn't buying into the
relationship between the 2 of them, not really enjoying that new
character.
I mean, what does he go on to do?
Does he go on to have a great journey throughout series 5?
I think he's probably good. we reach any wonderful conclusions
with him?
I can't remember to be honest.
I've not gone back and watched this season.
Because I've had 59 or 55 episodes of Star Trek to watch in the
meantime, and that's the rate of one every 2 weeks, more than
that.
So, uh, yeah, I haven't had the chance to go back and watch season
4 or season 5 and I do go back and watch the occasional episode of
Discovery.
I did that the other day.
I got on the randomiser and got it to pick an episode for me and I
just thoroughly enjoyed it and was moved by it and it did all of
the things that I wanted discovery to do.
And I'd like spending time on the ship.
But I don't think, I don't think I, you know, I know I am a bit
anti-discovery, but I don't think I'm entirely mad because I think
if I went and watched the timely episode from series one.
I would have a wonderful time with it That is more fun for sure.
I do think there is a sort of slovenly comparison to be made with
this episode, that episode.
I mean, I just, I could see the camera zoom in around Harry Mudd
as he's walking around murdering people up on the bridge.
It's so great.
Whereas that's kind of none of that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It is shot very straight.
It is very earnest.
It is played very straight and it is a bottle show.
But for me, there was enough reminders of all of discovery, the
fact that we end up in each season of discovery.
And you're invested in this, right?
So, of course, our stuff paid off for you.
All right, it's the end of the episode, and it's time for us to
work out where we're going next.
Predictably this episode of Discovery was my choice, although it
was also largely Joe's choice.
So able to take his share of the blame.
But this time it's your choice, Joe, and what I want you to do is
to clear all on the randomise us so that no series are selected.
So press the code.
No, you're serious.
Okay.
Oh my god.
I've never been in your hands like this.
This is so exciting.
Okay, everything is clear.
Now I want you to just choose one show.
What?
I'm only allowed to choose one show, the time being.
Just humour me.
For the time being.
Oh okay.
I have a think about this.
No, I've got to choose one show and go with it.
Just choose one show.
Well, I think we all know what I'm going to choose.
I'm going to choose Duke Space 9.
Oh my god.
You finally did it.
So because it's about half an hour to choose a series 5 Discovery
episode last week.
I implemented on the randomiser.
Now it only happens when you pick one series, okay?
Okay.
And then it shows additional checkboxes so that you can check or
uncheck individual seasons.
Now, but what I've been asking for this. for years.
Now, beware, with great power comes great responsibility.
We have the opportunity to fuck ourselves up and turn this into an
enterprise series one podcast.
It means we won't be stuck.
We won't be stuck with enterprise here.
We'll choose it every now and again.
Yes, all right.
Okay, okay, so our random selection is becoming ever less random
as we go.
But, but, I mean, do you know how many DS9 season 7 episodes we've
done?
I mean, it's getting out.
We haven't done anything from season 2.
Okay, now.
So you know what I'm going to choose?
You can choose more than one.
Okay, so you don't have to just choose one season.
You can choose any or all of them, or if you choose none of them
then it will untick the show and you'll have to select it again.
But you can have as many or as few as you want.
Oh, this is heaven.
Oh my god, we never have to watch shit again.
This is a Star Trek podcast.
It's going to be the highlight of 2025 to date, you know, this
discovery.
Not the Discovery episode, this.
Okay, no, I think I'll choose series 2, obviously, because we
haven't, we just haven't been there. and there's some good stuff
in it.
Excellent.
All right.
Right?
Oh, how wonderful.
Okey-dokey, here I go.
Oh, bro.
What a choice.
No, I don't want to do this one.
What is it?
Your random Star Trek D slash 9 episode is Melora, season 2
episodes six.
Now it's our Daphne Ashbro from Doctor Who TV movie.
Friend of the podcast.
We do.
Not perhaps her finest moment in television.
Although it would give me the chance to talk about the wonderful
story in her autobiography where she says that William Shatner had
her fired from the set of a movie they were doing together.
He just took one look at her and went, no.
I think I've heard that.
And that was it.
She was gone. absolutely outrageous.
Okay, let's keep going.
Okay.
No, we can't go from one episode where 2 of the same person meet
to another episode.
It's the same person.
Star Trek, it's hard to do that actually.
What is it?
I mean, it is your random Star Trek D Space 9 episode is season
two, episode 23 crossover.
Which is the 1st... episode.
Yeah.
Yeah, where Kira says to herself, I don't want your fear.
I want your love.
If you can't love me.
Who can?
Nanal's having the best of that one.
Oh, do we want to do that?
We've never done a DS9 Mirror Universe episode, but I suspect
you've already pressed the button again.
I have.
I don't want to do this one either.
Okay, wherever's after this one we'll choose.
Although it is Kai winning this game.
Okay, so what is it?
Um, your random Star Trek decent 9 episode is season two, episode
24, the collaborator, which is just after crossover.
Do you remember that one?
No.
Okay.
Oh, let's do this.
Oh my god, this is perfect.
This is perfect.
It's season two. episode one.
The homecoming.
You love a 2 episode one.
I do, actually.
Now, because that's a three-part story, we only do the one part, we
don't do, we do 2 parts of a two-part.
Sorry, we only do one part of a three-part story.
It does work on its side, the homecoming.
Both of those are kind of, they escalate, don't they?
It's not quite a 3 parter.
It really is 3 very serialised episodes like what we would get in
Enterprise series 4.
I do remember, I remember the experience of watching the beginning
of series 2 of Deep Space 9 for the 1st time and just thinking how
amazingly, like the scale of it.
You know, we talk about the scale.
Just having a 3 par was a big deal.
Yeah, but also just making Bajor a big thing and having things
change or threaten to change on Bajor, like having big political
things.
It's kind of the 1st one of these on Deep Space 9 and that becomes
Deep Space 9's bread and butter.
We talked about it in best of both worlds, right?
The 1st time, like the status quo, the actual premise of a Star
Trek show changes.
I think you, like, pleasingly as well, I have just watched duet
and in the hands of the, which are the 2 episodes immediately
before this.
What happens in one, isn't it?
We've done dramatis personae, a truly dismal episode, and that's
the episode before duet.
Okay.
So it's almost like they have one last stab.
Can we do these next generation knockoffs?
Oh, no, that didn't work at all. and then they do duet and then
they do it in the hands of the prophets and it's almost like they
go, oh, okay.
This is what we've got.
We can do this really, really well.
But I think because I watched those 2 episodes and they are
brilliant. don't get me wrong, both of them do it and in the hands
of the profits.
But there is still that kind of claustrophobic season one sense to
the 2 of them.
You watch 2 episode one.
Everything's a bit brighter.
They've built the upper deck of the promenade.
Oh, wow.
It all just feels like it's lifted into in a really interesting
way.
I think it's a great choice to talk about.
Okay, let's do that.
That's awesome.
We've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley, where online at Untitled Star Trek Project
com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social
media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lam.
This episode was recorded on the 24th of February 2026 and
released on the 27th of February.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Deep Space 9, for
Homecoming.
That's familiar.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sorry, I was such a drag.
No, no, no.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, I think people like...
Yeah, I think people like that.
Like, I think that people absolutely like that.
And anyone listening to it is going to fall somewhere on the
spectrum of that. one side.
So they'll hear something, someone saying something that they like
about or, you know, that they agree with about the episode.
Oh, I didn't just say that's boring for an hour.
I don't know, you didn't.
No, no.
And a lot of the things that you say, you know what I mean?
Like the things about... about it being earnest and being stayed
like it is...
I bet they're all energetic episodes just seem so awesome.
Oh, yeah.
And more fun and light, kind of capery, kind of, you know, there's
that moment, you know, hue, what's that thing where a trills
previous host goes into another person, like facets or whatever.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I can't remember.
I know.
So that happens in Culba, is Jin, Jinal.
And Culba is it.
And when the trill ends up in Culba's body and that he's much more
relaxed and he's kind of chill and stuff, and he looks down and
says, wow, this guy really works out.
Which I thought was fair to go.
But that's all sort of fun and light, and, you know, you've got
the, you've got mole, and, like, I think she's called mole, like a
gangster's mole.
You know, I think she's literally called it for that reason. quite
far now.
Oh, what episode?
story with them and they have a good, you know, like they have a
big romance, which is really great and he, you know, we get
backstory and he betrays his people and stuff.
We get to see him turn green and liquid, which is kind of excited
society, and we see the interior of these vast spaces in the, in
the, um, green dreadnaught and stuff.
There's fun shit happening all the time.
I do remember watching a bit of the finale And thinking that was
pretty earnest as well, though.
Like it was kind of...
Well, they do that, they do the farewell.
Do you know what I mean?
And it's like half an hour at the end where we just get everyone
to be where they need to be.
And I think, doesn't she go on the ship and there's like she
remembers the crew?
She gets all these memories of what everyone's like and they, they
make sure they save up Oisha Kun and Detma and and Christopher and
you know, Bryce and Reese and stuff so that we can see them all.
So it is.
Every DS9, isn't it?
It's that same sort of feeling at the end of like, oh, man, this
crew aren't together anymore.
That sort of feeling of like, you know, yes, things move on.
But we had our time.
Until until Starfleet Academy, I think that Discovery is the show
that's most like Deep Space 9 of Kurtzman Trek.
Because it tells us it's more serialised in Deep Space 9, but Deep
Space 9 invents that in Star Trek.
And each season has quite a different character.
And it has people coming and going.
I mean, Deep Southside doesn't have the central, you know, 7
characters apart from the Judzia thing.
Um, you know, it's still the same people who are in the opening
credits all the way through, but discovery is even less like
that.
We've got characters coming and going all the way through.
Depending on where we fall on it.
It's a different crew every time.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
And like that's super interesting as well, I think.
You know, that's a little bit more interesting than, um, and a
little bit more intentional, I think, you know, because it has its
genesis as it's going to be an anthology show, you know, like it
was only ever going to be one season long, that season one setup
was going to be the story, and then the following year we were
going to a completely different ship and all of that, you know.
Um, Yeah.
Did you hear what Kurtzman said about the Picard regulars?
No.
God, that made me even more annoyed.
Was that they didn't want to write them out.
They didn't want to write them out at the end of two.
They couldn't afford to get all of the TNG regulars and have, so
they decided to write them out and bring them back.
And I know you think that's a great call.
I fucking love that.
I love that cruise too.
I love that cruise so much.
I'm so sorry that we don't get them.
I think I would rather have taken that 3rd year with him.
I think it's because it's because they wanted to do 5 years with
Patrick and he said, I can't.
Oh, tired.
Yeah, he's really old and frail by the end of it.
But I am not sorry that we got that final.
No, I get it.
That's great.
Rios, man.
I know, he's so beautiful. overall, the next gen crew.
Yeah, where's Starfleet Star Trek Rios?
Maybe it's Star Trek.
Just pay him and have him pay all the different characters, right?
It's Star Trek Rios, and it's Rios in 2025 or 2026 with Teresa in
the and the kid, in the medical centre that gives medical
treatment to undocumented immigrants, and he keeps like, you know
shooting people from ice in the head and stuff, and that, I think
that'd be, that'd be a show I'd watch.
Oh, definitely.
If he's in it.
Yeah, yeah, anything.
With his shirt off.
Whatever he's doing.
So he hasn't show.
Yeah, yeah.
I think they should have a whole episode where books naked, you
know, and...
That thing, it's a great Star Trek tradition, isn't it?
where 2 characters are in a weird science fiction situation where
they're thrown together and they kind of realise that they
actually should be together and then they get together in real
life at like parallels, isn't it?
Like parallels is how, um, the wharf Deanna relationship, which
whatever you think of it, like that starts because they've been
married in a parallel universe, like wharf turns up and they're
there together.
And then this, where book and her, like she sees book again as
they were back a year earlier and decides actually we need to be
doing this, that at the breakup that they had in episode 2 or
whatever.
Episode 2 is them riding motorbikes in this sort of strange desert
city and stuff and it's all hugely. what I'm used to.
Discovery?
Yeah, you would have got that if we'd just rolled, man.
All right.
I mean, I love, I love the old, do you remember the episode where
Jake 1st tries to set up Cassidy and Ben, you go, oh, I've met
this freighter captain, you know, I think you'd really like her.
And Ben goes, no, I have no time for relationships right now.
I'm so sorry.
And then every, it's a B plot.
Every subsequent scene is like Odo going, oh, how's it going with
the freighter captain then?
How many people has Jake told about this woman?
And then at the end of the episode, he goes, fine. go and meet
her.
And of course, he sees us, Penny Johnson, Joe. absolutely beguiled
by her.
And she decides they're going on a date, not him.
Excellent.
Yeah, what is that?
Ah, it's what, oh, mid-season three.
God, fuck a duck.
I an explorer, because obviously they're on the ship in that one.
It's around that time.
It might be... family business.
It might be the subplot in family business.
I'm not sure Almost as much as I love the subplot.
You're afraid of commitment, Ben Cisco.
Who said anything about commitment?
Obviously not you.
And then she decides the relationship is over.
I love her.
I love a strong woman who just knows.
And then she's great.
Do you remember that when she was like, no, do you dare come over
there to change my schedules around?
Oh, that's great, isn't it?
That's really good Because we do see him manipulating her by being
the captain from time to time, don't we?
Like manipulating things so that they turn out.
Like, that's why she's there on the baseball when the baseball
game happens, isn't it?
Because he pulls some strings.
Who knows why they made that decision?
All right.
Okay, let me get the random.
I have one stipulation that you have to follow.
Tell me.
Okay.
Oh my god, hang on.
Don't do it yet. dont do it yet.
Don't get that randomiser up, but I'm going to give you an
instruction.
Just get the randomiser up.
No, not to press anything yet, then.
Oh, God, wolf out.
Okay.
Is it going to come alive?
Oh, God.
Okay.
All right.
Just is it arm?
Oh, I, oh, wait, uh, yes, but oh, no, wait, no, that's Dimple's
Dew. hang on.
Randomiser.
Okay, I've just gone to the page.
Okay, all right.
I've got two.
Okay, don't do anything.
I'll give you instructions.
I'm touched at anything.
Okay.
No, wait instruction, right?
All right, it's the end of the episode.