Hey, Joe. Hi.
Nathan, how do you feel about embarking on a series finale?
Not a season finale, which is what we did last week, a series
finale.
Do you feel like that?
comes with certain expectations.
I think it's pretty exciting.
I think that we should do all of our greatest hits from our
previous episodes of untitled Star Trek project, and we should
perhaps speculate about what the future might hold for the
podcast.
It's the perfect opportunity for us to showcase our personalities
talk about our relationships and all of that sort of thing.
That sounds incredible.
Um, this episode that we are covering today is all good things.
And boy, did it have a lot to live up to?
The success of Star Trek, the next generation.
By the time this episode here was somewhere in the stratosphere
wasn't it?
Like, it was so big, the movies were a given.
Yeah.
Well, in fact, one of the weird things about this as a series
finale is that they all know they're going to be back in the
studio like next week or something, shooting generations.
So it is not quite a finale in the sense that we know that we're
going to see these characters again, but in a sort of rather
different way.
I think too.
Of course, it is the 1st Star Trek series finale because turnabout
intruder of Star Trek, the original series, is just another
episode, and, you know, God only knows what the animated series
did in its last episode.
But this is the 1st time that we're winding a show up
deliberately.
To be honest, I think the 1st series finale is DS 9 is what you
leave behind, which genuinely brings the show to a climax, but
also has a ton of running storylines that it has to bring to an
end.
There's a finality about it.
Whereas this, basically this could have taken place at any point
in like the last 3 series, technically.
It's a time travel episode, you know, it's a character piece.
Is there any particular reason why it has to be a serious finale?
Oh yeah, I think so.
I think the journey into the future is something that you wouldn't
necessarily do like any earlier in the run.
And I think that there is a little bit of reflection here about
what the show has been.
And I'm not sure.
I think I detect a note of criticism of what the show has been as
well.
And so, so I do think that this does work as a finale, but I think
it doesn't work as well as it could.
And I think part of it is just what they've chosen to do over the
last 7 years in Star Trek, the Next Generation, which is to be a
space problem show rather than a show about people doing space
problems.
And also because of Brannan Praga, I think, who is a bit of a
problem at this point.
Oh, okay, well, I'm very interested to hear you elucidate those
thoughts in more depth.
I just, I really genuinely felt with this episode and I do think
it's good.
I don't think it's great.
And I don't want to like shit on this from a great height because
there are a lot of people that really rate this episode.
And I want to talk about the things that are genuinely very good
about it and there are lots of things.
Yeah.
But I, this didn't have like the wow factor for me, of what I
would come to expect, even from like a season finale.
I don't know.
And I really felt that I get your point about looking into the
future and, you know, we discussed a moment ago that I say at the
end of this episode, well, that future never happened.
So what was the point of that?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I think perhaps one of the reasons why it seems so sort of
stayed or languid or um, kind of maybe the whole, um, is that all
it's doing is giving us one last chance to hang out with these
characters.
And even though they're going to be back in the movies, Star Trek
isn't really a series of movies because I think Star Trek does
this thing where it's on every week.
It's different every week and you get to spend time with different
characters, you know, there are Geordie episodes in Star Trek, the
Next Generation, but there's not a Geordie movie and there isn't
going to be.
And so this is the last chance that we get to spend proper time
with these characters.
And so I think it's absolutely forgivable that the plot is as thin
as fuck and it just lets us spend hangout time with everyone one
last time.
When it comes to like the original series and those movies.
I think some of those original series movies are genuinely very
good movies, but they kind of have to just send everything that
was the original series because they just don't feel like the
original.
So especially with the budget.
Yeah, you know, whereas the next generation movies, to me, feel
like next generation episodes with more money thrown at them.
You know, like, like they're ensemble pieces and they're a bit
dreary, you know?
But also as well, the thing that really irritated me about this
was the fact that they're going, oh, well, in the future, Picard
and Beverly Crusher get married, and in the future, you know, Worf
and Troy have a proper relationship, and in the, and it's like
well, why didn't you do all this stuff in the last 7 years?
Yeah, yeah.
And that is really telling, isn't it?
That there is character development in the 25 years or whatever
that take place after this episode, but basically none in the last
7 years.
They're willing to be bold in an alternative future in a way that
they're not willing to be bold in the actual bloody series.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think as well, the same is true about the kind of galactic
political landscape as well.
I think that Star Trek the Next Generation starts with a very, very
bold statement about how the sort of politics of the galaxy have
changed in the years since the original series by having wharf on
the bridge and by having a good relationship with the Klingons.
And, you know, that's happening at a time around.
I mean, I know it happens before the fall of the Berlin Wall and
at the end of the Cold War and a time when it's starting to look
like international cooperation is a thing and Star Trek's leaning
into that.
And that's interesting and they do absolutely nothing comparable
in the run of the show for 7 years.
Like nothing like that, nothing changes.
And when you compare that to Deep Shase 9, which leans into being
about that, um, and there's a hint of it here, you know, there's a
kind of prefiguring of what happens on Deep Space 9 here, I think
in the way that the politics have changed in the galaxy in the 25
years before the sort of future timeline.
But I'll talk more about this when we're actually in there.
I had expectations that this show would do something during it to
run, and it gestures at it, but doesn't do it, and then it turns
out in the finale we weren't really interested in that at all.
Do you remember what the S9, the DS9 writers did in the season
finale of series 2, which is concurrent with all good things?
It's the same slot, is they had the Jem'Hadar introduced.
They had a galaxy class starship in the battle.
The gym had makes a suicide run at the galaxy car ship and blows
it up and that was hire a bear saying, that's next generation
out.
DS9's in now, and we mean business, you know, and we're actually
going to take this place.
Yeah, we'll take this quadrant somewhere quite interesting.
And that, that, that visual of the galaxy car ship just being
destroyed was basically, you know, then put the curtain up, you
know?
Yeah, it was deliberate. anyway, shall we?
I think we should.
Yeah, I'm just getting ready here.
I will count it in.
Yeah, please do.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
And I'm going to have the 1st word here.
Okay, because we end, we start on a particularly egregious note of
the Wharf and Troy relationship, which perhaps we should say, you
know, is backwater alley, it should never have happened.
It's so chaste.
Look at it.
Like they were walking, like, they're not doing what Janeway does
on the holiday.
She goes to the holodeck to fuck.
They're here just walking along the Black Sea and here's Deanna
explaining what we've just seen because we can't afford depicting
it on the actual show.
And should we go on about discovery in there and let's watch it
again.
And there is a joke here, which I think does land with Wharf, going
you know, all you can say, all you can say is stimulating.
He goes, it was very stimulating.
I think that's cute, you know.
And walking is funny.
Do you remember when when Jadzia sets her eyes on wolf?
Do remember what she does?
She starts eating.
She's a bat left.
Yeah, she's got left.
She sweets him off his feet and she jumps on top of him.
Now that's realistic.
But look at this.
I think this is terribly cute because this is Marina being
Marina.
When Marina is saki.
Like when Worf says I'm worried about Commander Riker, and she
goes, why do you think he'll come too?
And it is a very marina moment.
And so Marina is starting to get...
I don't want to look at this.
Oh, come on.
Oh, sorry.
Oh, no, card in his airy chest.
Picard comes into cock block them, but come on, I'd kiss Michael
Dawn.
He's a handsome man.
Oh, I'll kiss Patrick Stewart.
Get me hands on his chest, you know.
I was going to say, I do want to say, though, I really love Marina
Sos is look in series seven.
I think they've given her this proper, like, relax.
Her hair's more relaxed.
Yeah, you know.
Well, it's more her, isn't it?
Yeah, and we're going to see the contrast with...
Well, in fact, we don't get her proper series one hair in the
flashback.
They don't inflict that on us, which is kind of nice.
Yes, they have.
But they put her in that fabulous blue skirt.
Yeah, she's wearing a scant.
Do you know what?
I was really excited.
I thought we were gonna see a man in a scan in that scene.
I did.
They didn't do it.
Oh, did there was there one?
No, I thought I thought we would too.
I reckon Braga or Berman said, no, no, no, no.
I bet it was Roddenbury back in the day, you know.
Oh yeah, for sure.
No, he's an absolute hornbag.
Let's go to the Edo planet where they're all oiling each other
up.
Yeah, wearing Kleenex.
It's not very too much into any of this.
Yeah, he's a he was a horny old goat.
Yeah, so these titles are so boring for the last time.
The fabulous trumpets of the Star Trek, the Next Generation theme
tune.
Yeah, yeah, we really going where no man has gone before.
We missed a drink with the tennis McCarthy theme.
I want that.
So bizarre, you know. just realised, you just see the shit going
zoom, zoom.
Well, that's what it is.
It's like a racing car, isn't it?
That's that's what it does in the in the original series.
I mean, they're just recreating the original series opening titles
essentially, with slightly more interesting flying past planet
shots.
I do like this shot here as it comes down over the saucer.
I think, you know, yeah, well, we will see it literally 100s of
fucking times during the run of the show because, of course, they
shoot a whole heap of these shots for encounter at FarPoint and
then just use them over and over again. even in this episode as
establishing shot so they don't have to pay for new ones.
They're shot, so shot, and there's kind of barboard in all good
things.
Yeah, yeah.
There's one thing I was very aware of as well.
Okay, is I thought the sets look remarkably cheap.
Yeah, if you leant on them, they'd fall apart.
Yeah, it's funny that, isn't it?
Like, It's because you, you keep making me watch Discovery and
expensive shows.
Yeah, that's right.
Shows with a bigger budget.
I hate these opening titles too, where they do the actors, all the
guest stars, and they literally fucking spoil the whole thing.
So they spoil the appearance of John DeLancey and they spoil the
appearance of Denise Crosby in this scene while they're sort of
talking.
At least with British shows. with like a show like Doctor Who.
There isn't credits like this.
No, they can maintain.
I don't think discovery either.
You know, discovery, discovery just does the regular cars.
Right, right.
Discovery is just perfect.
Okay.
This is your other favourite, remember?
Yeah, this is my other favourite.
And I love Deanna's casual wear.
God, Star Trek in this era doesn't get casual wear right at all
does it?
No.
It's to look 60s-ish.
Those dreadful, very excitingly coloured costumes I put Cisco in
honestly, it's unbelievable.
Yeah, but there's a sort of kind of African thing going there once
he puts his foot down, I think, and so often they're quite good.
Incredibly hot as well. wear anything, you know?
Oh, did you know what?
That looks very like one of those original series close-ups, you
know?
make it a bit fuzzy.
For Picard or Marina?
Oh, here we go.
So we're skipping into the future now.
And there's a remarkable parallel here with Picard the series
which opens with him with a vineyard.
It's really funny, actually, because on the day this goes out, I
think series two, episode one of Picard will have just aired, which
also has Jean Delancey in it, I imagine.
I mean, he's been trailed in the trailers.
And I am really looking forward to that.
And this is set in sort of roughly the same time period.
So Picard is a bit faster and has a big beard.
They haven't tried to age him up with makeup like they do at the
end of the inner light, thank Christ, because that looked
terrible.
Oh, the layers of latex.
Yeah, that's right.
And he's a bit more hale than our Picard in Picard, who is
surprisingly frail, I think we said.
But they retain some of this staff.
So in a sort of scene at the end of this episode, they're going to
jettison this whole future, aren't they?
They're going to decanonize it.
And of course they are because they need to be free to do other
things in the movies and they don't want to pin themselves down
and, you know, fair enough.
It doesn't ask me what was the point?
Well, I think the point is this is a hangout episode, and here we
are hanging out, having fun with imagining what their future's
going to be, and guess...
Even like every single time anomaly, Brandon Bragger episode.
Yeah. you know, deadlock where they destroy one of the voyages or
year of hell, where they delete the year of hell. you know?
And it's just, oh, what was the point?
Yeah, because no one learns anything really.
And there isn't an attempt.
There's a proper gesture at a character arc for Picard, and the
trouble with it is it doesn't make any sense.
So it really fails.
Doesn't Picard remember all of this, though?
Yeah, Picard remembers all of this.
Okay, so at least there's something there.
And I remember there was one episode at time that's a Voyager
which had a beautiful ending.
They delete Voyager crashing into the ice planet and all of that.
Harry Kim is given a video recording of an older Harry Kim telling
him about.
No, no, but it kind of works because it has some emotional
resonance at least, you know?
Well, I think that I think that we're meant to understand that
Picard's experience in this future and maybe in this past as well
where he gets to see Tasha again, is the thing that inspires him
to go and join the poker game at the end of the episode.
But it's really ham-fistedly done because I think that Braga likes
puzzle box episode, this is Braga, isn't it?
I mean, yeah, it is.
Spend all hour and a half slagging off rather than Pierce.
Well, I've somewhere...
And one more is probably one of the most accomplished writers in
90s track.
But Brandon Braga is your go to bullshit space anomaly guy, isn't
he?
Like he's the king of the space anomalies.
Oh, but he can't do it spectacularly well as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like he's one of the few writers, I think, of Voyager that
remembers they're supposed to be, you know, this can be dynamic.
And he fills it full of action. you know?
Yeah, yeah.
But I do think that this, oh.
So these people who've just appeared and are shouting at you.
It's that weird.
It's that weird nuclear future, isn't it, from Encounter of
Powerpoint?
Yeah, it's the 21st century.
Here we go, here we go.
Who knew that?
His uniform is suddenly a lot tighter.
Yeah, spandex. here we go.
We're on Spandex.
Oh, look.
I'm sorry, you and me are going to disagree on this. you know
because I know you think she looks very, very beautiful because I
asked you about this already.
But I just kept being pulled out of this because she looks so much
older than she did in series one.
Yeah, I know, but this isn't real, Joe. They've got Denise back.
What are they going to do?
It's just like...
They're trying to make me think this is in PowerPoint.
And I just...
It is okay.
It is. got Denise back.
I think it's lovely that they're getting the chance to fill in
some gaps that we never saw.
So this sequence where he 1st went to the enterprise and all of
this.
Actually, this might have made him counter on Firepoint a bit more
likeable, you know?
Yeah, I, I, I think this actually does quite a good job of
replicating encounter at FarPoint.
And it's good that the people were like Riker, right?
You can't see Riker in this time period because now he's much
fatter and has a giant...
They use a clip from Arsenal of Freedom, I think, is...
Oh, now look.
See this shot?
So this is McKinley Station.
And one of the great Star Trek moments, I think, that we always
remember is, except for you because you haven't seen it, is the
big flyby in Star Trek, the Motion Picture, where we get to see
the new Enterprise model, and it's long, and there's music, they
make glorious fun of it in...
Yeah.
Dex episode.
It's really funny.
And it's it's beautiful, but this is visually kind of much less
impressive.
It is, but it's an attempt.
It's still, it's possible.
You know, I mean, you've got it right behind you right now.
It can't be too terrible.
Have they just recycled the model from family because I think that
we're docked at McKinley station in family?
If you say one.
You're right.
It is, you know.
It is.
Do you know, one of the things I think this episode gets very
right is the transition between the time period.
And how it, I wouldn't say it builds up, you know, a terrific
amount of energy, but how that gets faster and faster as the
episode goes along and we're suddenly intercutting and then the
plotting and the editing all sort of come together with all 3 in
the same place.
We're cutting between the 3 and that's kind of nice and it's kind
of clever.
It also works too, that he's initially confused, but he does say
each time it gets easier.
And so we get this confusion, but then he just sort of slips from
one to the other, like mid conversation and there's no faffing
about with that.
And so that does speed the pace up.
I mean, we do spend a lot of time just talking and establishing
what's going on here.
What I do think as well, by using 3 time periods, they do really
interesting things with Picard that I really, really like.
So I liked him here learning about this, what's it, aromatic
syndrome.
Thank you very much.
That's not mentioned by name in Picard, but he does have something
similar in that 1st season.
And I think that they've taken it from here.
So they've decided that, well, I mean, because this really
happened.
This conversation with Beverly, where he discovers his
vulnerability to it.
And they...
You cannot keep alluding to the fact that this is fiction, you
know, all right?
This is reality in the future, the year 23, whatever.
It's not real.
And so they've decided to stay with it.
And I think it works really well in Picard because it does
emphasise, in a way that turns out not to be necessary because of
Stewart's performance, but it does emphasise his sort of frailty
how old he is.
But I like him getting the news here, but I really liked was in
the future one where he's ranting and raving about spatial
anomalies and things like that, and they think he's lost his
bloody mind.
Yeah, you know, and I think that's really, really interesting
because you're absolutely seeing Picard past his best where
they're all like, okay, well let's take you off to the home now.
You know?
Yeah, yeah.
But I also really like the Picard of the past where he's doing all
these unusual and unpredictable things with his new crew and they
all think, 0 my god, what is this guy all about?
You know, like, but it's it's different. looking at Picard in all
these different ways.
Kind of in a way the show doesn't usually, really.
Yeah, in fact, I think Stuart's performance is quite different in
series one, and he definitely tries to recapture that in the past
episode, you know, the past...
He's very cold in impact.
You know, I want you to stop me from making an ass of myself with
children, you know, so bad.
Do you know what's interesting because in a documentary, it
started playing after this on Netflix and it's like a
retrospective and it's Patrick Stewart's there going, well, I
didn't think Next Generation was going to go, he said 6 weeks, I
gave myself.
I didn't unpack.
I didn't unpack my bag, he said.
And here he is 7 seasons later.
Huge success.
Yeah.
And it's been off 150 years later after that.
There's no one asking him.
Look he's still hanging around with his chest hanging out.
Yeah, yeah.
It's an official Starfleet call.
They don't dress up for those.
That's...
We've had.
Can I say how refreshing it is to be outside in the sunshine?
We said this and take me out to the hollow suite, didn't we?
You know, we're not in standing sets.
We were in the fresh air.
It's surprising how rare that is, isn't it?
Yeah, given the budget.
Yes.
Yeah.
And then, you know, I obviously make a lot of comparisons with
Doctor Who, because that's our other big favourite that we podcast
about, but actually Doctor Who has way more location work than
Star Trek.
And, and, you know, one 10th of the budget.
Yeah.
Well, it doesn't tend to have scenes in the TARDIS that much. you
know, or episodes set on the spaceship. whereas it's absolutely
normal for Star Trek to have the bulk of the episode take place in
its standing sands.
And I do like that about Star Trek.
I do, I want to hang out with my favourite characters in the same
location and see what different things they get out to and they're
working lives and their family lives and whatever.
But whenever it goes out on location.
Do you remember that episode who watches the watchers when they're
out on the rocks for the whole and it's so refreshing.
Every time they do it, it's like a breath of fresh air, isn't it?
literally.
That's such a good episode.
That's marvellous, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
But this, I mean, I think this location is really nice.
It's very clearly southern California rather than France, but like
whatever.
I think probably in Picard at Southern California rather than
France.
You say, yeah, I'm sorry to say this, okay.
Did you see how nice live ass Burton's bum was in those trousers
then?
Yep.
I know. terrible though, you know, because they've taken the visor
off.
They've let him have eyes and we still can't see his beautiful
brown eyes.
Yeah, but we can at least see his face.
And I think, you know, he had that acting challenge of doing 7
years with that wretched visor, but the moment they felt that they
could, which is when the show is over and they decide that they
can do changes to the characters, they get rid of it.
And, you know, it was kind of bad, I think, to put Lavar in that
stupid thing for 7 years because, like, it, like we said it before
I haven't really, like, high concept ideas for characters that are
a bit tedious, aren't they?
Yeah, and it turns out you don't need them.
Yeah.
No. and I don't know.
I just think some of some of the episodes that featured with
Geordie, if he just had his normal eyes, we'd be heartbroken
watching them.
Like the thing about Renee Auginois is you can put him in as much
latex as you want, but if you can see his eyes, he's going to make
you feel, you know?
But I do think Levard does, oh, he's space Cambridge.
Oh, I'm so sorry, I keep interrupted.
But I just have to point out the fabulous housekeeper, who is the
MVP of this episode.
You know who that is?
I just think it's the same actor who is in, I'm imagining it's the
same actor as in Times Arrow 2.
It is.
It's the same one.
It's the one who goes, Mr. Pickett.
I'll have my red by one o'clock on Tuesday.
It's her, but this time she's got a terrible English accent.
Yeah, accent.
It is a terrible accent, isn't it?
It's so...
She's bad.
He's so grumpy.
But are there people like that in England now in, in, you know
2022 or whatever year this is in the space year 2022.
I work with half of them.
It's full of it.
It's full of people like these. in 2399 or 98 or whatever this
is.
British that is grumpy, you know?
Yeah.
Bad tempered.
Yep, no.
Worst customers on the planet.
Oh, look, spots on the fire.
Actually, I can't imagine that is spot now. a new cat, isn't it?
Yeah.
Well, data probably. cloned him her.
Change of sex, actually, halfway through.
Because they have such big sound stages.
They do these kind of library sets and things like this
beautifully.
They're always massive, you know, with big fireplaces and it's
nice and big, isn't it?
I like this a lot.
And of course, we don't get to see this in Picard because data is
canonically dead at the end of nemesis, isn't he?
But this is actually kind of sweet.
And of course, this is the location share is what Sir Isaac Newton
had, as they held, as they said earlier.
But I think Stephen Hawking holds it as well.
Star Trek guest star Stephen Hawking.
And so I think it's terribly sweet to give him...
Have you noticed?
He's surrounded by bloody cats.
Yeah, yeah.
A mad cat lady since he's moved to Cambridge.
Did you see that that photo out the window trying to suggest it's
England.
Oh, lovely.
It's not too bad.
That's not too bad.
It's another 2 cats.
I'm like, 0 my god, how many cats has he got?
Nathan, he's got a problem, I'm telling you, right?
Oh, here we go.
Look at Wolf.
They've even done the old wolf makeup.
Yes, they have. heavy forehead.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And the scant and all of that.
There are set changes that take place.
I think between series 4 and 5 that they revert mostly for these
past scenes.
Some of them earlier than that, but the Enterprise set changes
over the years.
And so they mostly bring back, I'll tell you one bit that they
didn't bring back when we get there.
But they mostly revert it to the old set.
It's a wonderful touch that O'Briens there because he was there in
the counterpart.
Yeah, you know what his name was in Caro Farcoy.
No, what?
Colton, because he worked a Colton.
He just calls him Colin in that. yeah He doesn't have a name.
That's right.
He's probably credited as that too.
God, he did all right for himself.
He became the most important person in Starfleet history from that
one tiny, uh, small part at the beginning of uh, I always forget
just how much of Next Gen O'Brien's.
And, you know, he's there till series 5, I think.
Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because disastrous series 5 and that's when, um, Keiko gives
birth.
So he pretty much transfers, you know, when when it starts.
He's in it until then.
See, look, I wasn't very convinced because Tasha Yal is not
behaving in a hideously melodramatic way until that point.
And then she was.
So now I believe we're in zero one.
I think the problem is her hair.
They don't get her hair right.
Do you remember that sequence in the court?
Yeah, we go to the court later with Q and all that.
And she's like, and I grew up in places like this court.
And it was men like these and they're rape gangs and oh, God, it
was so overdone.
The rape gangs was such a terrible idea.
See, look, these spaceships on the wall of the observation lounge
the little spaceships in relief, and all that wood, that obviously
goes away in series 5, and it's replaced by a much more boring
wall.
And so nerdy.
Thank you.
That's lovely touch.
I think this looks like a sort of fabulous 60s office, but what
they haven't done.
So the opposite wall of the observation lounge with those ridges
below the windows, that's not how it looked in series one.
And so they've decided that no one's going to notice that and
they're not going to bother to replace those.
They also do meet my co-host from Untitled Star Trek Projected
though.
But there are some other things.
No detail goes untouched or none noticed.
They must have known.
It's Star Trek fans, for God's sake. his hair.
I know.
I think it's like, it's like her episode one hair only not
incredibly shit.
Like, it's so bad.
It's a character at PowerPoint. should have looked, you know.
Oh my god, do you remember that bit in Encounter Farpoint where
the man freezes up like an ice pop and falls over in there and she
runs up to him and does her best ever betasoid moment of like, you
know, of explaining a plot.
She just goes, he's frozen.
Start as you mean to go on.
I'm detecting anger from him, Captain.
Oh really?
She's pulling off that skirt boots.
Yeah, 7 years later, no.
She's fit.
I mean, they put her in some pretty interesting outfits in the
last 7 years, you know?
bit of camel toe.
I definitely think they made the right choice with the uniforms
though.
These sort of tie season one uniforms.
It feels like no one can breathe, you know?
There's spandex.
And I think they're replaced.
You know a lot about that nation.
The replacement wool, I think.
And it does take a while.
So these go away in series three, but it takes a couple of years
before the background actors stop wearing these uniforms because
they can only replace the main cast uniforms.
I don't know if I do this because there's so much for us to
actually talk about anything.
But I do actually have a question for you.
And that is, do you wish that Tasha Yar had stayed with the show?
Because basically every character, got a reboot around series 3
where they suddenly all started to work.
Yeah, I think so.
And part of the reason is that I think that what they do to her in
in, um...
No, in unification part one, where we discover what happened to
her or unification part two, one of those anyway, whatever. is
awful.
And particularly given all of her fears of rape gangs and stuff
like that, to have her become a prisoner of war and be repeatedly
raped by a Romulan until she, you know, like forcibly married
maybe they're in love, maybe she really liked it, but let's, I
doubt it, you know.
Especially after like yesterday's enterprise gave her a heroic end
superb ending.
Yeah.
On a complete side note, I can't believe they had the nerve to
call one low discovery episodes, unification number three.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, they did.
They did they did really properly unify Romulus and Vulcan in it.
Do you imagine there was Discovery fans watching that who'd never
seen the exchange go, well, what's it all about?
Part 3.
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, they've, we saw in our last episode that they were
free and easy with the use of part one and part 2 at the beginning
of the end of the series.
Oh, yeah, they all check in.
They don't care.
Oh, see, now, this I really liked because I think you can
genuinely see how Brent Spiner, and this is exactly how he played
him in series one.
And in series 7, there's a more relaxed informality about him.
He's comfortable with the other characters.
It was very childlike, very Pinocchio in a series one.
And the head tilt and all of that sort of thing, which they
mentioned in the Picard episode that we covered.
All of that is here.
And so he gets to do 3 different versions of data, like quite
properly 3 different versions in this episode.
And he gets the punch.
I think he gets to punch the air moment where in the 2nd part or
the 2nd half of this, he's the one that believes the older Picard
and goes, actually, this would all make sense.
And then I'm going, finally.
Do you know, what was interesting was, remember I said to you in
descent, I was never sure why data was as popular as he was
because he didn't really chime with me like everybody else. despite
the fact that he's a great actor and there were some good
episodes.
I was suddenly thinking, actually, that performance in series one
was so likeable.
It was so childlike.
I can see why.
Do you remember the bit, you know, in a counterpoint where he's on
the holodeck and he's whistling and things like that.
It's so sweet and I'm thinking to myself, yeah, that's why that's
why I like that character at the start.
He was, he was lovely.
I think it's genius as well because he is very definitely our
version of Spock for this exciting new series because he's alien
in a way that the other characters aren't, um, and he's science
guy or whatever.
And instead of having him super serious and slightly contemptuous
or conflicted about humanity, you turn it on its head and you have
him as a comedy character, an unintentional comedy character, but
he frequently says things that are intended for the audience to
laugh at and make sure...
And the outrageous O'Connor.
Yes.
And they alluded to it in that episode of Picard that we watched.
They wanted to learn how to laugh, didn't they?
Yeah.
And the outrageous iconic does appear in an episode of Lower Decks
as well.
No, I think we were robbed here. as well, because we said how
fabulous Marina circus looked back in the past in the old mini
skirt.
We've said how fabulous she looks in a present.
Now, I've got a feeling, if we'd have seen her in the, obviously
she's dead in the future, isn't she?
And that's a big point.
It would have seen, she'd have looked like that fabulous vamp
who'd been in love with our car with their gray hair.
Do you remember?
And you know, oh, she looks amazing.
I'm actually glad we don't see her.
Although I do dislike the idea that she's been fridged in order to
create conflict between these two.
I think that's a little bit unfortunate.
And I don't buy it.
I just don't buy.
No.
Nothing would wedge between this crew.
They just love each other, you know?
Yeah.
And and they wipe it out as well.
At the end, they say, oh, you know, Picard told us about this
conflict and we're never going to have it when Deanna dies.
Oh, hi, Deanna. have you come to play poker?
We were just talking about you.
You know, like that's a weird kind of scene and there's no point
to it.
And look at, look, this is not how Riker acts out of focus in the
foreground, staring angrily at the fact that Deanna's fucking
someone else.
That was not what the relationship was like during the run of the
show.
He was always like, he's always such a professional as well, right
isn't he?
none of this would normally, it wouldn't distract him from his
work.
But they had had a relationship that was kind of mature.
Like, when we get into the future, we meet the other Captain
Picard.
I think that that relationship is pretty great and I think that
Gates does a great job in those scenes.
Like she's really good.
You know what?
I was surprised at how good she was in this because you know
infamously, I think she's a dreadful actress and a terrific
dancer.
Yeah.
But I loved this scene where she leans forward and kisses it.
This is a professional environment.
And I'm like, yeah, I would have liked to have seen a bit more of
this actually.
Yeah, so there is a, is it series 7 is a tag?
attached attack.
Yeah, but they duck out of it.
Yeah, chicken away from it.
It's so annoying.
Yeah, yeah.
And it is a Star Trek problem, which I think they critique and it
is an absolute reluctance to change the status quo at all.
And so where we are, um, I think that it's partly the era, and I
think that the intention was that this is syndicated TV, like Star
Trek, the original series, and that, I think that that's a problem
for this show is that it's trying to replicate Star Trek, the
original series.
And, you know, when discovery comes and tries to be the flagship
Star Trek show, it absolutely doesn't do that at all.
It just doesn't do that.
And it changes the status quo.
Perhaps to a fault, but even just the regular cast change from
episode to episode.
It's very, very different and much better, whereas nothing happens
to these people.
But you know what's irritating about this is Gates McFadden and
Patrick Stewart have genuine chemistry.
Okay, he's in a position of authority and she's serving on his
ship.
Like there are so many interesting things you could do with this.
And that was clearly the intention because there was also the, you
know, Jack Crusher thing, which gets maybe 3 or 4 mentions during
the 7 years of the show.
Oh my god.
Sorry, I know I'm doing impressions of every season one episode in
this, but do you remember in the naked now when she's in the door
like, oh, I'm so hot.
Oh, Captain, you're going to have to get away from me.
And he's like, not now, doctor.
Please.
So bad.
All of the women in the naked now get horny and all of the men get
drunk.
Like it's really super upsetting.
I don't mind seeing women getting a bit hungry.
Well, I know, but it's just kind of like that super, that, goat
like, letch.
Throughout the 7 years, Troy gets horny quite a bit, you know, if
you ever look for those episodes.
Oh, dear.
Diffron system.
That's so boring.
Who cares?
But you know, I can think of another another episode of Star Trek
that did um, a future that never came to be.
Future imperfect?
No, the visitor.
Oh yeah, okay.
And I, you know, I, you know, I, I lean towards DS9 all the time
but it's, it is done, I think, more deftly.
Well, like with more interesting detail, more interesting
characterisation.
Well, no, because I think that that is a depiction of grief, and
the reason that Cisco keeps coming back to visit Jake is because
that's what grief is like.
And so it's a story about grief that is kind of told as a kind of
weird science fiction story.
You know, like and like a proper science fiction, sorry, not like
an episode of Star Trek.
But it does, it does depict the quadrant changing.
Each time we go into the future.
We learn about like there's there's been a war with the Klingons
there's been shifts with all the major powers and it's really kind
of compellingly told.
Yeah.
And like you said, yeah, it's absolutely a character reason
because Cisco is essentially haunting Jake.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
What's the point of this thing?
Look at look at Riker.
Look at future Riker.
You know how I said how I said when we did Nepenthe?
I said that Riker looks a bit rough and a bit kind of dishevelled
but here he's got his hair slicked back and he just looks fucking
stupid.
Like, it's so bad.
And he's doing that. looks like the sort of person. that would
have one of those mansion houses out in the hills with Paul full
of girls, doesn't he?
He looks like he looks so gross.
And, you know, like, like, Jonathan Frakes is so charming when
he's relaxed and he's wonderfully charming in that episode of
Picard.
You know, just funny and likeable and, you know, this sort of
future grumpy asshole.
Yeah, it's so disappointing.
Well, there we go.
Well, it never happens.
Don't worry.
Thank goodness.
Although, you know, a light date is gray.
You know that's quite nice.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Do you know what's interesting about La Forge is?
Even now, even though we got a chance to sketch in loads of detail
and give him lots of cap, no, they don't bother.
He's just there to listen to the Technabel.
Well, he is married to Leah Brahms.
He has some children and he's a novelist, we discover in the 1st
scene that he appears in.
Well, that just shows I won't pay attention at all.
Well, I was probably too busy looking at the beautiful vineyard.
But that's, you know, like we don't care about that.
He back to doing the techni-abble.
But he does it so well.
Yeah.
You remember those episodes?
Oh, my.
Terrible.
Do you remember that?
Do you remember the one where she walked in?
And, uh, just for him, basically, like, with getting a sex doll of
Leah Brahms.
I love the Pasteur.
Look at that ship.
I love the ship, even though it does look a bit like a penis
flying through his face.
But what I really truly love is Captain Beverly Picard.
And I love, love, love the bit where she chews him out in a minute
and says, don't you ever dare contradict me on my bridge.
And look, this, do we hug?
Do we hug?
Yes, of course we hug.
And that's what Riker and Troy's relationship is like.
They had a relationship.
They stopped.
Now they're friends and they're okay with them fucking other
people because they do that all the time.
Can I just say, right?
They've put a comedy beard on Picard.
Yeah.
They've given Riker this hideous, slick back gray hair and latex.
Look how subtle Beverly Crusher's makeup is.
When it's lit well, it looks fantastic.
But sometimes it's overlit and it does look like...
It's not.
Yes, I like it a lot.
And a little bit of gray in her hair.
I think she looks stunning.
Like she looks convincingly old in a way that is super
attractive.
I think she's fantastic.
Your voice is different?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, she's, she's, she's properly acting, which sounds really
rude.
Maybe, then the problem is they haven't given her the opportunity
she should have had.
Well, she just has to look concerned and say space medicine
things.
No, I don't know, though.
There are...
Do you remember that episode, ethics, where she has to tell off
the doctor at the end and say it, and she just kind of stares off
camera?
Like she could have had a chance to be furious and, you know
really give it some.
Yeah.
I mean, they, you know, I guess it's who they cast, isn't it?
And the fact that the women, well, once Tasha's gone, the women
are just in sort of caring roles and they're a bit sidelined.
But I think she's very good here.
And I think she's great.
You know, I admired her style of command in descent part 2 and it
looks like those terrible technobabble scenes.
I know they're boring.
But there was some kind of character stuff happening there.
And it was giving Beverly something new to do.
And, you know, almost a change in the status quo in Star Trek Next
Generation.
Imagine that.
But here they've lent into that. you know, that's theological
conclusion.
Can I pre-empt a scene that's coming later, right?
Because what I think happens is Beverly Crusher has a look at Rosa
for the day, right?
And then she has to choose which member of her crew is going to
sit at the console that explodes if they get into any trouble
whatsoever.
So she'd be slating console.
She puts that very robotic ensign there because she's like, well, I
don't like her very much and we're probably going to get into
Trump.
Honest to God.
I was like, really, are we still doing this?
bloody exploding consoles.
I mean, there weren't any war.
Weren't anybody right?
moved on from that.
No.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh my word.
Yeah, I didn't think of that.
But I do remember being a bit surprised that she was killed.
I didn't remember that.
Yeah, and the makeup is grisly as well.
Yeah, it is a bit grizzly.
It sort of surprising.
Every now and again, Next Generation will do something like really
graphic, like that.
I remember I said that sequence in your favourite Genesis, what
they all turn into monsters.
And there's someone sitting at the console with all their chests
ripped open.
That's it.
Oh dear.
And remember what's his face in conspiracy?
Oh, that was the that was the most grisliest Remy moment ever.
Yeah, yeah.
Here we go.
We're going into a full on encounter of PowerPoint now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I wonder if they got the same actors back playing, you know, the I
doubt it.
This is, now, am I wrong?
I had meant to go back and check this, but this is the cheap arse
corner of the studio version of that scene from, and I think it
looks substantially worse.
It's a much smaller place.
They don't do the thing with Q on the big crane coming in.
They just have that incredibly shitty special effect against a
black background so they can just mat him in and then only I have
him there when it arrives.
I think this is cheap as shit.
I'm going to be fair to this episode, though, and I think you're
right, and it does look very impressive, but that is one of the
big set pieces of that.
Whereas this is filming out in the vineyard.
There's Beverly Crush's ship.
They've got to build.
They go to Prime Audio Bridge redressed.
They painted the Battle Bridge blue.
They build primordial earth.
Like, they do enough in this.
You know, like, come a bit of slack.
Don't you think it's slightly depressing that they revisit a scene
from Encounter at Farpoint and it looks substantially worse than
it did 7 years ago?
I think we're just supposed to be thrilled that.
They are revisiting the scene in the 1st place, although it was so
dreadful, that scene.
I do like, like, I will always applaud seeing John Delancey
though.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
You know, like, I don't think every cue episode is amazing, but I
think he's always incredibly charismatic.
Yeah.
Is there a Gene Luck Pickered here?
That scene in tapestry where he wakes up in bed with him.
He says, good morning, darling. pulls the covers up to hide his
shame.
Although, do you know what?
I'm gonna be honest.
I think he's got even better chemistry with Kate Mulgrew, you
know.
Yeah, except that 1st episode with Kate Mulgrew, where he's just
grossly sexist to her the whole time is hugely unfortunate.
It's just like, oh, we've got a lady captain.
So we'll make lady jokes.
You know, like... deeply inappropriate, but that sequence where it
materialises in her bath.
I laugh every single time.
And the bit where Susie Q comes along, oh, Susie uh, Susie Q
yeah.
Yeah, of course.
And she goes, what is it?
Put that dog down.
No, I'm not talking about the puppy.
Oh, yeah.
Well, he turns, he turns, he does turn.
Is it...
What's the episode with Amanda, the young Q?
Like in a late...
True Q. right.
I think that people give it credit.
Oh, no, I think it's okay.
He turns Beverly into a dog.
Doesn't he turn down?
enough.
I think the best queue episode is...
Oh, okay.
Shocking.
I mean, it's it gets points for skewing Wesley Crusher. at one
point.
So bad.
But that's the, remember that was singing I told you about Tashi R
and the penalty box.
She's like, oh, if you weren't a captain.
I'd go there.
Everyone's trying to have sex with Patrick, you know, yeah.
But no, the best one is, I think, the one where Q loses his
powers.
It's hilariously funny episode.
Guy and stabs him with a fork.
Oh, Q Who is pretty good too, isn't it?
Oh, Q, it's amazing.
But it's not really about Q, is it?
No, really.
No, he's just there to kind of...
But I do kind of like that he actually is the one who introduces
the Borg to humanity.
And so he puts them all at threat.
He's responsible for that and then they start heading towards us.
And that is a thing that they do in series 2 and 3, the Borg are
on their way.
And it's only a few references, but it's that's good.
I mean, to be fair, so I went at prizes for, though, really
remember, regeneration, they're the ones that those 1st contact
balls.
Yeah, yeah.
Let them know where Earth was.
There is a free line with you, though, which I quite like with
this.
And it is all to do with Picard and humanity and kind of pushing
them in the right direction or to see if they've got the right
stuff.
And that is, is there an encounter PowerPoint?
I definitely there in Qhu because they want to see if Picard can
make a tough call.
And it is here where he's essentially manipulated into a situation
where he has to think completely outside the box.
Yeah.
So I don't think that either encounter at Farpoint or this work
because like they're being presented with a thrilling new
situation and it's like a fucking jellyfish or something and who
gives a shit.
Like, it's like, and what were they going to do?
Like, ooh, it turned out to be a jellyfish and that's never
happened in a Star Trek episode before and Picard managed to not
shit the bed while dealing with it.
And so humanity gets another chance.
I mean, that's kind of a bit crap.
And then he...
I mean, it was their 1st episode.
I'm some slack, all right?
It is a bad 1st episode though.
And then here, like it's a space thing.
And it's just like, you, so this, like, do you know what?
They're trying to do many, they're trying to do things to make
that anomally interesting, i.e. having it start in the future and
go back in time, which is good. a fun idea. revelatory, but it's
fun.
So this is the scene that I'm talking about where I think it's
critiquing the show where doesn't he say you had all this, I don't
know if we've talked over it or whether it comes later, but he
says, you know, you had all this potential, but you've squandered
it.
What have you done for the last 7 years?
You've had, you know, datas, witless thing about being human?
I can't even remember what it is, like Geordie trying to fuck on
the holodeck, you know?
I don't think that's generating chocolate, if I'm honest.
Well, no, I don't know, but something like that.
And it is kind of that.
It is sort of saying in some way, all you've done is space
problems for the last 7 years.
You've had all this potential, but all you did was just do the
same thing week after week.
And that's a reasonable critique of this show, which doesn't
aspire to do anything other than, you know, entertaining space
problems every week.
And it certainly doesn't change its characters in any way.
Promoting.
That is a critique, though.
If that's a critique.
I think that's the writer's looking back and saying maybe we
weren't as creative as we could have been.
It's certainly not the audience because this was riding high at
this point, you know?
So it's not them responding to any kind of criticism they're
getting.
No.
And like, let's let's think about Voyager.
Does Voyager make the same mistakes because it does change the
status quo over the course of its run.
We have different parts of space.
We have different adversaries.
We learn, we get 7 coming along and shaking things up.
We have.
We basically tell the same kind of episodes.
But yes, and the characters don't really develop in any way.
I mean, even substantial way.
No, even the fact the marriage.
I'd say what?
The most developed character of Voyager is less developed than
someone like Nog in DS9.
Yeah.
And I think it's because perhaps they're already envisaging a
version of Star Trek that doesn't do that, that does change the
status quo all the time.
And they perhaps don't yet know.
Oh, there's that ensign.
What's her name?
She turns up.
She's there all the time.
I'm glad she's here in the last episode.
That's not ancient Sonia Gomez, is it?
She's the one who gets the hot chocolate thrown all over her.
Yeah, that's right.
And she's in Lodex, obviously.
Have you noticed what I'm doing in this?
Because it's the end of Next Generation.
I'll mention in pretty much every single episode in the entire
run.
So, I remember right, because I saw this at the time, and I can't
remember how I watched this show.
Oh, look at Wharf.
He's looking great.
No, I like his shaggy gray hair.
Yeah, very distinctive.
Yeah.
Um, I remember speculating as the show went on about how it would
end.
You know, how are we going to end this?
And for me, the only really interesting political thing that
happened.
For me, like that thing that I said earlier on this episode about
the piece with the Klingons, being a real development towards kind
of internationalism and peace and stuff like that.
And the closest that Star Trek, the next generation ever comes to
that is in unification, where we're looking forward.
We have this kind of totalitarian state, like Romulus is portrayed
like Russia, it has a secret police and all of that sort of
thing.
And you know what, though?
Unification is really boring.
Yeah, it is really boring.
But that's that's Star Trek, the Next Generation's failure mode. is
just standing around talking, being boring.
But that's the closest that we get.
You know, and so I imagined that something would happen, that that
perhaps, um, once Tasha's daughter called.
I can't even remember.
Oh, is she Ishira, Ishara, something like that.
I can't remember.
Um, uh, and, and like nothing, nothing ha, like I thought maybe
she would be back.
I thought maybe that we would get something about what the show
had been about, that the show had been about, you know, like a
kind of, like international cooperation and peace and stuff like
that.
And right from the 1st episode, we're friends with our adversaries
and we introduced the Romulans at the end of series one, and I
thought maybe something would happen about that.
And so that the show would end as it started about the Starfleet
ideals instead of about a fucking space normally.
To be fair, like even DS9 doesn't do that.
What DS9 decides to do, ultimately, is be a massive game of risk
with the outer quadrant, with the great powers all going at each
other and sure.
And it has that, it has to resolve that and it does that with
varying degrees of success.
But with DS9 series 7, I was mega into Phantom at this point and
forums and things.
And there was, you know, because there's so much, there was huge
speculation.
How's the Dominion war going to win?
Who's going to live and die?
I bet there was none of this here.
No, no.
And this kind of throws away the interesting thing from series one
because it says in 25 years will be at world with the Klingons
again.
And you kind of think, oh, well, you know, like that wasn't about
anything then.
And I think the problem is, again, that Berman is not interested
in Braga either, and not interested in the utopian socialism of
you know, the Star Trek.
No, when they finally get shot. you truly do a season-long art
they do enterprise free and it's keeping in completely the other
direction, isn't it?
Yeah, well, they throw it away.
They go back to a pre-federation time for their own show when they
create their own show.
John Billingsley fabulously critiques that in the Trek geeks
podcast interview and everyone should go check that out.
Oh, good.
He was so great.
He's so eloquent about it as well.
He's not just going, this is shit.
He hasn't.
He says, I love Star Trek.
That's not Star Trek.
Yeah, he's probably political.
And he swears even more than we do, which I think is so great.
Here's here's Arsenal of freedom here or arsehole of freedom, as
we used to call it.
Do you remember those fuck, they had those pair drives?
Super weapons that were flying through the fire. or something?
Like it's...
It was one of those dreadful studio forests, wasn't it?
that looked really awful.
Yeah, because of the sky, they had the sky.
I should point out at this point, we both love the next
generation.
Okay?
Yeah, I love it today.
Massively quick.
We love these characters.
So now we get now we get to see the scene where Deanna tells
Picard that her and Riker used to bone and it's super boring.
It makes you think, thank goodness they left this out of
encountered.
You know what?
You know, I've lamented the fact that they didn't have all this
sort of interpersonal stuff going on from, given what we get in
this episode.
Maybe that's a good thing.
I don't really want to see a season-long art with Riker and War
fighting over Troy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh my god.
This Romanan character.
He gets such a good line in a minute where he's like, oh, you
going to tell the Federation about this?
No, he's like, hmm, then I approve.
Let's do it.
It was really fun.
So this is Andreas Katsulas, who we last saw in cogenitor as the
serene leader of those repressive aliens.
Look at his crazy eyes.
Yeah, I want to run for his money.
Well, he's just kind of going for it.
He never acts like this in his previous episodes.
He is in Future Imperfect.
He is in maybe the enemy.
He's in a couple of like only a small number of them.
He's like their stock Romulan character with a voice.
Yeah, that's right.
But now he's decided.
Oh, fuck this, it's the final episode and I'm just going to go for
it.
Yeah, that's right.
Why not?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, it's incredibly watch.
If not authentic. very watchable.
He's great.
I mean, he's terrific in that...
This episode could do with a bit more charm and a bit more humour
like that.
It's very, very serious impulse this episode.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And here's me saying it should have been more about geopolitics or
whatever and maybe that's boring too.
But nothing is boring as a space anomaly.
Now, excuse me.
If you want me to go forever other Voyager episode, I can tell you
about some thrilling space anomalies that are coming up.
Well, in fact, I'm loving Deep Space, Deep Space 9, Jesus Christ.
I'm loving Discovery season four, which is, again, about a space
anomaly.
Is it?
Yeah.
In fact, episode 2 is called anomaly. which is the 1st episode
title ever to be reused in the history of Star Trek.
I wonder if it was an Enterprise episode. episode called.
Yeah, very good episode as well. enjoyed that.
Well, it's a great episode in series four, and the big villain
this season is the DMA, the Dark Matter anomaly.
So there's anomalies all over the place.
But this is a super boring anomaly that merely exists to make the
plot happen.
No, wait.
So, well, because it's not, it's not affecting them, is it?
In any way. sometimes when an anomally makes them act out of
character or, you know, they can do fun things with anomalies.
Remember that, that anomaly in Remember Me that makes everyone on
the crew.
Vanish one.
And then a fabulous scene where Picard says to Beverly Crusher, oh
you and I are the only 2 people on the Enterprise, Beverly.
Yeah.
See, I got another one in there.
Yeah, it's a good episode.
It is a good episode.
But...
So this anomaly is caused by scanning this anomaly.
So the 3 ships scan this anomaly and cause this anomaly.
So cause and effect because it's a time anomaly work differently.
So they cause it by observing it, even though observing it happens
after they've caused it.
And getting a headache.
But Q is making Picard go back and forwards in time so he can
solve it.
And Q wants him to think new thoughts and expand his horizons.
And at the end...
He wants them to all go in and like dare to commit suicide in
order to solve the problem.
Who gives something?
You know, like it's, I'm like, it's all covered with, like, John
Delancey going, well, you know, it's all part of the human
experience.
And everyone at home is going, even though it don't make any
sense.
Oh, something very, something very profound is going on here.
Here you go. from Gates McFadden.
Oh, she gets a fabulous line where she's like, I'm not having that
from my ex-captain or my ex- husband.
Yeah.
No, she's doing great.
She's doing really well.
If only she'd been given more of this stuff over 7 years, I would
have loved that.
I think it is partly the material and partly the character
premise.
Do you see how they've made her neck a little bit, wrinkling
quickly?
It's very subtle.
I think it's quite subtle.
When it's overlead, it's a problem.
It doesn't always work, but I like the wrinkles by the side of her
mouth and she's got a scrawny neck.
I think it's wonderful.
In the wrong light, it looks like she's got Adam's Apple.
They're trying to tell us something else about Beverly Fresh.
It's not good.
It isn't good.
But when it's well lit, it is, as you said before, quite subtle
which I think is nice. imagine that, though.
Sorry, I'm going to go off into fantasy now.
I imagine they've been brave enough that in the, like now they
probably do it if you're doing a future episode where, I don't
know, like someone you know is heterosexual as now in our
homosexual relationship or someone are transitioned or just
something brave and an amazing life.
Interesting.
But now they're just older.
They're all older.
Yeah.
I mean, I like the idea that they've married and divorced and that
they're they still love one another.
I love that sort of relationship.
I love the fact that where Picard goes, what about the anomaly?
And he goes, where's your mummy?
Now, look, Q might not work, but he is fun.
Oh, I think he's great.
In fact, when he takes the ear trumpet and then turns it around
and puts it in Picard's ear at the end of this scene.
It's like, remember, Jean-Luc, you destroy humanity or whatever it
is.
I've seen this shot. of their 2 faces in profile.
Yeah, it's old.
Used quite a lot to like...
Well, we're going to see it.
We haven't seen Picard series 2, episode one yet because it's a
couple of days before you released it.
I just say one thing.
John Delancey looks so hot in series 2.
Oh, look, he's got the bit.
Yeah, yeah.
Beautiful.
But it is kind of funny that we are about to see them, you know, 25
years in the future or whatever.
I think it's said in 23, 989 or something.
Deeply intrigued to see how, now, because, you know, obviously you
have a massive love for Kurtzman Trek, and you think they use sort
of the building blocks of Star Trek in a lot more interesting
ways.
So I'll be very interested to see creatively what they do with Q
in series 2 of the next generation of Picard, sorry.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Did you notice right?
Sorry, sorry.
No, no, no, go on.
Back in the encounter at Farpoint?
And they actually do it.
They were all leaning back in their chairs and a very slouched
sort away and now they're all sitting up in the present day.
Those old chairs where they actually, I think they're they are
slouching like that in a way that looks stupid and they're not
doing anymore.
Like they abandon it.
I think they do it so that the camera has sight lines, so they're
not like obscuring like the whole fucking set is designed around
getting cameras to kind of go around it.
And I think that that's part of it.
And it looks stupid.
And I think they do it for the 1st couple of years.
But the skirts, the slouching, the additions to the set.
They're putting, they are actually looking back and putting a lot
of detail.
There's some thought that's gone into this.
No, no, no.
And so the current enterprise set has what looked like a bank of
hard drives on the walls of the bridge.
And when you go back to the encounter at Farpoint set, it's lovely
wooden panels.
And I love the wood because it has a real 60s kind of feel to it
which I think was worth retaining.
And the only thing that was very 60s about series one, you know.
No, no, but sexism, the studio planets.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I do think having a sort of 60s design, given that Star Trek
that's where Star Trek comes from, I think, is gray.
I mean, no, I know I know they could have done something more
interesting, but really, I don't think there's anything more
quintessential than the next generation than a space anomaly.
So it does feel a little bit authentic to have that in the
finale.
Well, is it though?
I don't think I don't think next gen does that many space
anomalies, and when it does do them, like the...
We've already done...
Now, look here, we've only done a handful of next gen, and we've
already done a space normally episode.
Yeah, that's true.
But again, the space anomaly is rarely the point in the way that
it is here.
Oh, fuck, this is such a dumb idea as well.
So...
No, I, like, I'm here for anti-time. for causes and effects and
you know, happening in different orders and all of that's fine.
But the fact that, like, people's old scars are healing and that
that, um...
Oh, Alice's baby...
Why do that?
And it's another one of those final season character development
things like Troy and Riker's relationship that they can do because
they know they'll never have to pay them off or live with them in
any way.
Like they... consequences.
They do the scene where she tells Beverly that she's got the baby
and they do the scene where the baby dies.
And I'm like, well, what's the water point of that?
Don't we discover that she's pregnant earlier in the season?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
She's showing.
Yeah, yeah.
She says and she goes, oh, well, listen, that's wonderful one.
Yeah, it's I can't remember.
I think it might be a mask, actually.
No, not mask.
Genesis.
I think it is in that one.
Yes, because her pregnancy protects her from something or they use
her amniotic fluid to do something. plot.
It is...
But if this is the payoff, that she's losing the baby.
And it all reverses itself, oh, whatever, and it's fine, and
she'll have the baby, but there's no scene establishing that.
Yeah, what it feels like, don't you?
It feels like Picard.
That's the sort of horrid things they do.
It's just a, I think it's a bad idea.
Yeah, God, that's cheap.
You know what, right?
The reason why Beverly Crusher put her on the rotor in the
exploding console chair. is because her hair is so fabulous, that
woman. you see it?
It's like a massive 60 quiff.
It's like a Barbara Wright haircut.
He's like, no one's having more fabulous hair than me on the
bridge.
He's pretty fabulous. is pretty right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It is pretty great. amazing.
Uh, we can't afford new Klingon models, nucleon ship models, so...
Here we go. 25 years.
Spaceship action occurring.
Yeah, very slow.
You were complaining about the slow spaceship action in
discovery.
Just very leisurely. 25 years earlier.
All right.
I'll just come on a bit now.
I think that'd move a bit faster.
There we go.
The paste has learned that there's a 3rd dimension in space and
has decided to sort of head off, you know, using the Z axes.
In the front of that spaceship.
It looks like a big golf ball.
Yeah, I like it though.
It's like a, it's like when the enterprise turns up later with 3
Nacelles, which actually violates the laws of physics and is
shouldn't be allowed, but it is there because it breaks the
rules.
It's like War 13.
The cells, physics, war.
Oh, sorry, I've lost what you're talking about now.
I'm so sorry.
So, so, you know, like it has 3 in their cells, but you're only
allowed to have an, you're only allowed to have a, an even number
of nacelles on a ship.
It's a rule.
There she goes. think I saw a rock.
Um...
Hang on. lets just see her body.
Is there any rock on the floor?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, no.
No, no, no.
She's pretty burnt, isn't she?
Her face has been seared.
Yeah.
Well, there had to be some steak for this.
Well, did there?
I don't know.
Like, um, they establish that she's, Oh yeah, she's definitely
dead.
Um, yeah.
Oh, Riker's makeup, mate. looks obscene.
Yeah, it's the hair is really, really bad.
He's got all these lumps on his forehead.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, he looks like...
I think they steal this sequence of the Klingon shipping way of
warrior, you know.
I swear that that scene of the Klingon ship explosions in where
the Warrior.
Oh, really?
Yeah, well, they did reuse. above nicking, you know.
No, absolutely.
Oh, yeah, you could.
I think you could well be right.
They have got really...
Sorry, go on.
Oh, they've done something with the Enterprises Nassell pylons as
well. as well as adding another Nassell, and it does look a bit
more dynamic.
I think it is pretty cool.
And you do want the enterprise in...
So, can I just find a plot hole here?
Can I tell you a plot hole?
One.
Okay, off you go.
Okay.
So I hate this. plot hole picking, but fuck it, I'm going to do
it.
So they say that the modulation of the 3 tachyon pulses or
whatever in the 3 different time periods that scan the anomaly are
what are all the same and so they must all be from the same ship.
And so they go, oh, so it was the Enterprise scanning it.
But wasn't the Enterprise scanning it in the future?
It was the Pasteur scanning it.
So they've kind of, I think, there is some, this is a vestige of a
previous version of this?
I don't know.
But they certainly get that wrong.
They're too boring anyway.
They're too busy getting the rest of the skirts right in the
encounter PowerPoint.
They've taken their eye off the plot.
I would absolutely sooner they spent their effort doing that
rather than...
The trouble, though, is you do have to focus on these things
because I think Star Trek fans, you know, they know the detail of
these things.
They're at these conventions putting their hands up and standing
up and saying in episode 44, you know, it didn't make, and the
actors are looking at them with a blank face going, it was just a
paycheque, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I do, I really like...
That, because I've worked with the elderly, and I've seen people
patronise, and I've seen people treat it as if they're bonkers
when actually, sometimes they just need you to listen.
And I think this is all played very well because they're kind of
kind to him and they're kind of not as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And he's, he, he plays it like he's losing it as well, which I
think is really interesting, like that, and clearly the script is
doing that too.
Yeah, but it is great because like, you know, looking at it from
the other direction.
He does sound like he's completely barking mad.
Oh, this is horrible.
Yeah, like let's not have this.
Like, like, that poor woman, uh, nurse Ogawa, yeah.
Yeah.
She's been with us for a while.
She has, but what development does she have beyond this?
Oh, she got married?
to Andrew.
Is she?
Yeah, yeah. we see that?
forgot about that completely.
No, but she, I think it's in lower decks, isn't it?
I think they...
Because she's in Lower Decks.
She's one of the 4 characters in Lower Day.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, it was not like they were above giving the secondary
characters.
Keiko had some lovely episodes, didn't she?
And then there are other characters like Mr. Mop, the barber, who
just turned up every now and again.
Oh, dear.
Not as highly developed as Morn, no.
Morn, oh, my.
For a character that said nothing.
Honestly.
There are morns all over discovery at the moment.
It's crazy.
The, the, the, the, the race.
I refuse to know what I will not learn what racy comes from.
I just refuse to know.
But sure.
It's just, there are so many site gags with more.
It's just genius.
And then when they have the nerve to do that entire episode around
him and he's out with criminal syndicate.
Not in it or whatever.
It's so great.
Until the end when he faked his own death.
Yeah, awesome.
Oh, dear.
It's very funny.
No, well, discovery loves him and has there's a morn in the bar on
discovery in a recent episode.
Looking, Nathan, I refuse to admit your criticism about 90s trek
being loads of people sitting around the table talking, right?
Here we go.
And like, like, so this is him expanding his horizon.
So he passes the test again because he can do an anomaly thing.
This is one of my favourite scenes in the entire episode where
they go back to Prime Audio Earth.
And finally, there actually are some stakes because, you know, the
anomaly stretching backwards through time and it's going to stop
the, the, what, the primordial goo from eventually becoming the
human race.
And in a rather brilliant moment, uh, queue dips his hand into the
goo and says, look, this is you in a direct steel from a Doctor
Who episode.
And I refuse to believe that is a coincidence.
I really like the fact that it's France too.
They could have made it anywhere, but it's France. which I just
think is delightful.
It's where the... the sort of volcano and then the sea.
Okay, it's he's clearly superimposed.
It's pretty good.
No, no, no.
Yeah, like I'm going for it.
And like the anomaly in the sky and the pools of lava and stuff
because this set is very boring and we've seen it nearly every
episode.
And so, you know, tarting it up is pretty, you know, you can
actually make a direct comparison between this and Doctor Who and
talk about the differences in the 2 shows because in the Doctor
Who episode, this scene is screamingly funny whilst having massive
high stakes, like very melodramatic high stakes.
Whereas in this, it's just the answer.
It's a technobab solution.
That's super boring, isn't it?
And like these stakes aren't real.
These is all word peril.
Like, who cares?
Like we know that humanity's not going to be destroyed.
Well, never care if you don't exist.
But you know, I mean, there'd be no Star Trek.
We would be able to...
Star Trek Project.
How would we fruin delight people on a weekly basis?
Yeah, that's true.
That is true.
But it is sort of a bit shit, you know, and like he doesn't do
anything that's particularly ingenious.
You know, they do some space things.
Like they discover that that the thing gets bigger in the past
because it's anti-time.
So you would think, well, that's in the name, isn't it?
So like that's not that, you know, we know about anti-time.
So, honestly, like whatever.
I'm almost full into bed.
If you were to say to the average Star Trek fan, I don't know, name
20 memorable scenes from Star Trek, somebody would say, oh, that
same between Picard and Q on Primordial Earth where he picks up
the goo and says, this is you.
Well, I like that him going, ooh, they're moving closer together
they're about to make a protein.
Oh, nothing happened.
And I think that's adorable.
That is pretty great.
It's his performance, though, isn't it?
He's just he's so watchable.
He really is good.
And he's also sort of weirdly wooden and stuff in encounter at
Farpoint, but he really kind of relaxes into the role and I'm so
looking forward to seeing him this week.
I love the scene in, uh, in what's an otherwise pretty dreary
episode of DS 9.
The one with Q and Nick, where he makes Cisco punch him.
And he goes, you hit me.
Picard never hit me.
And he's like, I'm not Picard.
That is a super weird episode, isn't it?
It's kind of like why are we doing this?
Why is vast on this show?
back, yeah, that's right. on this show.
No, because that's when DS9 is trying to do... is trying to bring
in, you know, Lurser and Betor, Laxar and Troy.
They're all in series one.
Yeah, they don't know what they're doing.
Although interestingly, you know, I'm sort of going off on one
now.
But interestingly, they do, they can, because that lacks on a Troy
episode with Odo in the turbo lift.
I think it's her best episode and that's her most touching moment
where he never said her lap.
So it's interesting that they can take some of these TNG tropes
and do them a bit better.
But I mean, the only reason that we're talking about this is like
nothing the fuck is happening on the screen at the moment.
Like we are just all talking about space.
Oh no, here we go.
Space things.
Now we're in bed.
Oh, so this is the sequence where we're in 10 forward and Wharf is
grumpily in the background refusing to come over and socialise
because Riker's there.
And I just don't buy it.
I don't get it.
No, it's stupid.
And is it we're going to do interpersonal conflict because it's
our final episode, you know, like maybe, you know.
But do you know what, right?
And even it's even more.
It's a terrific episode.
The penultimate episode of TNG is preemptive strike.
And that's the episode where at the end, Ensign Rowe defects and
betrays Picard and goes over 2 and it's a fantastic moment, like
really, really fantastic.
And I'm like, how dare you save this kind of characterisation and
you know?
Yeah, but again, we're doing it because there's no consequences
consequences. the 2nd last episode, we haven't got Michelle for
the last episode, so we can do what we want with her.
And we need to set up Voyager, which I think is what's happening
there as well, isn't it?
Like setting up them a key so that Voyager can come in next year
and use them for about 10 minutes and then forget they ever
existed.
I'm going to do it.
You know I'm going to do it, all right?
Predictable was you, saying, Discovery is amazing.
DS9 took the marquee and did the most interesting thing of all
with them, which was that fabulous moment where Eddington's in the
whole season and a half and then shoots Kira and he's revealed to
be head of the market.
It's fabulous, honestly.
And plus Thomas Riker, who is also a member of the McKay.
Oh, yeah.
He shoots carer as well.
Yeah.
I think that's quite good, isn't it?
Because that is saying that the choice between Federation and
McKee is a very close one.
The same person could make could go either way.
And the Makia are right in all sorts of ways.
And we start to critique the Federation at the end, don't we, with
that?
What's the one where the Native Americans get resettled and
there's the McKee, like that Cardassian thing?
They start to get involved in kind of real politic.
Yeah, yeah.
But it's even more explicit in for the cause where Eddington says
to Cisco, in some ways the Federation is worse than the Borg.
At least they're honest about assimilating people into you know
their ideals.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That old lie, we come in peace.
Um, yeah.
Oh, this is it.
So Patrick Stewart's doing his full histrionic.
You've got to listen to me, everybody.
But this is terrific because then data steps in now, doesn't he?
And says, no, this actually makes sense.
And he actually does say the plot in a way that I'm like, oh, maybe
this has been fought through, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he's more than he's more than usually, sorry, he's more than
usually incoherent here as well, isn't he?
Oh, and his latex mask is coming off.
His latex beard.
So clearly visible in the live thing.
It's not.
Although, to be fair, I've seen latex alien creations less scary
than Riker in this scene.
What are they thinking?
The hair is just terrible.
And like obviously these people are this age now, aren't they?
Like Jonathan is this age.
Like, when is this?
I don't even know when this ends. not sure.
But can I just say, just to...
Shine, a very positive lie on some of this. is I think now this is
where the episode really leans into one of the massive strengths
of the next generation, and that is this group of characters, the
actors chemistry, and the fact that, like, as a group of actors
and as a group of characters, they adore each other, and they get
they would go the extra mile for each other.
And you know, Picard's behaving like a bloody idiot right now.
And yet they're all going to rise together and go into this
freshly dangerous situation for Picardo.
And we love that about them, you know?
Yeah.
And like, again, you know, the anomaly is as thin a thing as
possible.
Like it, who cares and it's all just words and a stupid special
effect.
Feeling for each other is not.
No.
And and that's what we're doing.
We're hanging out with these people for one last time and they're
doing the things they do.
You know, it's 25 years later and Geordie's still doing the techno
babble better than anyone else in the business.
They are still explaining the plot.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's delightful.
Every Crusher's still looking concerned about everybody, you
know.
Yeah, that's right.
But there's a reason.
There is a reason why this show chimes with the public.
And I don't think it's the anomalies.
I think is the characters.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think there is some attempt to say that in this episode
which is why that final scene is so well judged, that final
scene.
That final scene is perfect.
It's so good.
You know what?
Like, they could have laid it on. like, you know, the weepy scenes
in discovery and it's so understated.
I find it so moving every time I watch it.
Yeah, it's good. is really good.
Even DS Noing, which ended on like, you know, flashbacks of all
the characters.
And, you know, and it was very moving because you love those
characters, but I don't know, there's just something about how
they pitched that final scene in this.
And because it's not a goodbye because we know that they're going
to be back. very soon.
And so this isn't a goodbye.
It has to be now we're off on more adventures.
It can't change the status quo.
But what it does do is just a scene that reinforces the importance
of the characters because the poker scene is always about
revealing the characters.
That's what it's for.
It starts in series two, I think, they 1st do it.
I don't know if they're only in series one.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Palasca's up to it as well, isn't she?
Yeah, serious too.
And it is all about making it clear what the character's attitudes
are and relationships are.
That's what those scenes are for.
And so those scenes stand for, the interaction between characters
and now you have Picard joining in.
And I just say, couldn't we have just had Pulaski back for one
scene, please?
I love her so much.
She could have come in and just been like, right, you like, you're
a bunch of bloody shit.
I hate a lot of you.
And Riker, I boned your father.
It was so nice to encounter that openly critiqued.
Both the show and the characters.
People really didn't like it, did they?
I did like it, but I did miss Beverly, and I do think it is a
weird wrinkle in the show's history that she's absent.
I'd much rather have had Pulaski the rest of the run.
Yeah, it makes it makes Wesley's presence on the ship. inexplicable
except for contractual reasons.
It's like, why are you saying on the shit?
Well, Will's got a contract.
They do make that lovely point as well, don't they?
she comes back and he was like, well, how would you know?
You might have been here for a year, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah, in fact, that's quite good that episode.
That evolution and it is almost like, 0 my god.
That's the moment where you kind of go, they've learned how to
make this show.
It's got a great fella from scrubs in it, hasn't it?
That's the mad nanobot professor.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Tashiar leaning across the security panel there.
That's very season one.
Absolutely.
With Worf standing over her shoulder.
It's very good.
That wonderful soon where he goes, right, I want a security wide
search, Mr. Wharf, and Tashi R's like, excuse me.
Yeah, I'll be in charge of security here.
And he just says, not for long, love.
That's what I thought we didn't do as soon.
I do, and I like this as well.
I think like if there's ever a moment where you can have a moment
of reflection and say, you know what, you're going to be an
amazing crew and I know it, it's your serious finale, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And like, it's not like they don't help themselves to a giant
speech from Patrick Stewart even when it's not a series finale.
So they can have one here.
And look at the incredible thing.
I mean, it's worthy of this grand explanation.
They defeated Ardra, the great goddess.
They took down the attempt to destroy the Federation with that
computer game.
I mean, they did amazing things in that 7 year round.
I'm telling you.
And that's what I was thinking of.
I was about to mention the game, which just showed up recently on
an episode of Star Trek prodigy.
Well, the game.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. was playing it in his quarters.
Oh, yeah, I bet it was in his course.
They even survived the great Ferengi takeover when they all became
kids.
They did.
I love that episode.
Why can't we?
Why can't we get a fun episode of next gen like that?
Yeah, yeah.
Hmm, it is, it is really great.
It is the sort of thing that's slightly embarrassed by, but I just
think, fuck it, go for it.
Like if it's silly and high concept, this show can do it.
Because there are no consequences, so no one has to agonise about
being a child.
A scene where O'Brien and Keiko are sitting on the bed and she's a
child.
Oh, my word, it's so...
It's hilarious.
But she's kind of going so, Miles.
Are we going to fuck?
and it's kind of like, yeah, like no?
Yuck. man Kind of manages to be amazing even as a child, doesn't
she?
Yeah.
Well, that little girl who plays Guy and as a child also plays
Whoopi Goldberg as a child in Sister Act. Yeah, yeah.
So she's your go-to person for Whoopi Goldberg as a child in this
year.
Why is Whoopi Goldberg in this?
Yeah, she's not in Sirius 7 at all.
It was a choice between series 7 or generations, I think.
She's invited to have her generations.
This is a shame.
Pretty good scene.
Oh, a couple of scenes.
Yeah, that's true.
Do you know, I'm wondering if the Paramount execs should have
taken a closer eye on what's happening in all good things, you
know, and said, actually, perhaps we shouldn't have Brandon
Bragger and Ronald D. Moore right in generations.
Because maybe it won't, I'll tell you what, that ain't a great
script, right?
generation.
Jesus.
The people of Veridian 3.
I was so, so engaged.
No, what is it?
Like...
Yeah, yeah.
I really cared about whether they survived, even though I had
never seen them.
Oh, and look at how many times we're going to blow the fucking
enterprise up in this series.
I guess we get to do it 3 more times.
I'm trying to touch it here.
Did you notice?
There was a very dramatic zoom in on Picard then whilst he was
doing his wobbly.
Exactly acting.
It was marvellous.
Oh, we're gonna blow up.
But you know what?
It's very easy for ours. 25 years later to look at this and take
the Mickey out of the execution and mock the writing and all of
this.
We freaking love this.
Oh, my God.
Oh, yeah.
I think I probably had some reservations about it, but what it
does...
I mean the show as a whole.
Oh, God, yeah.
But I think this episode does at least do the thing, which I said
at the beginning of this episode of USTP, which is that it lets us
hang out with these people for one last time for an hour and a
half and see them do different things.
And if we're going to point at the next generation and say, is
there one thing that it did incredibly well, is it let us hang out
with those people for 7 years?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And that was fun.
We loved it.
I think it recreated Star Trek in a pretty good way.
Like it created a world for Star Trek to happen in, which it
doesn't really have until Berman takes over, I think.
Another thing I found very interesting when I watched Next
Generation through when I did the reviews for my blog was that it
had far more of a staple of semi-recurring characters than I
remembered.
Yeah.
And it actually like plotted the map of the alpha quadrant far
more adeptly than I remembered.
And, okay, I'm slight criticism, it doesn't do anything
interesting with it, really.
No.
But what it did was it set up the map for DS9.
Yeah. then they ran with it.
You know?
And I think one of the reasons that they move Voyager, like they
decide to set Voyager in the Delta Quadrant is because they want
to have a go at giving Voyager the chance to do that rather than
have Voyager taking place in an existing space that we know very
well.
You know, you've got Deep Space 9 to do that.
And obviously it gets Voyager out of Deep Space 9's way so that
Deep Space 9 can do things that don't affect Voyager and vice
versa.
But I think I don't think DS9 would be as substantial as it is if
those building blocks had not been established by the next
generation.
Yeah.
Well, like the Cardassians are in next gen partly to support the
creation of Deep Space Nine, aren't they?
Like, they appear in series four, but then they're kind of
properly addressed in series 5 and that's partly to get, um, oh
the Marquis is brought in deliberately for Voyager.
It didn't really work out that way, but that was the purpose it
was brought in.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think the Cardassians are a great idea.
They're a good sort of updated analogue, they're like, um, you
know, like an occupying force.
And that's a thing that's super interesting.
And that is interesting about the way Deep Space 9 set up, you
know, that that's in the aftermath of the end of an occupation.
I think that's interesting.
What is fairly unfortunate, that we've had dissent, which we were
quite critical about.
And then this, which we've had issues with.
I think it's worth remembering in like seasons three, four, 5, and
6 the hit rate of next gen.
He's really strong.
You know?
Those years are very, very good seasons of next year.
Oh, this is lovely.
I love I love his reaction here.
Yeah.
Oh, dear.
It's not a Brannan Braga script if we're not right back to the
beginning.
Of course there are no consequences.
Yeah.
But, but, in theory, uh, Picard remembers this, he's learned
something, God knows what, he's learned about tachyon scans and
anomaly isn't.
If the stakes are high enough, the destruction of the entire human
race.
He's willing to commit suicide.
Yeah, there we go.
But here we go.
Now, what's particularly compelling about this scene is it's the
best scene in the episode.
And it's just some sitting around playing poker.
It's so good. look how relaxed they are.
Look, look how, like, I think that Gates does a great job in this
scene because she's super chill.
You know.
Oh, I love the marina-sized reaction.
Oh, yeah, that's great.
That's so great.
It's so funny Imagine if that was true.
No, I'm kidding.
I like the local marina surface's face when Picard comes in and
she goes, ooh.
I love her.
She's the one who says you are always welcome.
It's beautiful.
And even just there's a slow slide onto his face and it's just so
understated.
It's beautiful.
I think like these guys know they're going to be back in the
studio next week, but they do know that that something is ending
and I do think that you can see it in Marina and Gates as
performances.
Well, because as well, like even though I said the movies I like
you know, big budget episodes, I don't really look like episodes.
I don't really feel like episodes.
The plots are like next gen episodes, but they're shot in a very
yeah, and the production would have been completely different.
This wouldn't have been like coming into work every day and doing
another episode or whatever.
Um, I think it's also really sort of slightly shit that they're
talking about Deanna dying.
Like, I'm hoping that they didn't mention that Picard didn't
mention that to Deanna herself.
In one possible future, you know.
And then Deanna comes in, oh, we were just talking about you.
We decided to not get cross with one another when you die like in
5 years time.
The overhead shore of them all.
Now, I've seen that as a painting, you know, someone, someone did
that as a painting. and it's, it, it hasn't even dogs playing
poker.
But what's annoying about that shot is that's the most visually
interesting bit of direction in the whole episode.
Yeah, and it spins around, like I like it, and then we go out to
the model shot.
And do you remember how Picard begins with a swoop in on the
Enterprise?
It's almost like we're.
Well, I think.
Are we playing poker on inten forward?
Yeah, I think we are.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that was a thing. wasn't it?
Yeah, I mean, I will never not love that.
You know, but, you know, it's fun to rip holes in it as well.
I'm going to do something unusual. at the end of this and not ask
you to sort of summarise what you think of all good things, but I
want you to explain to me why Star Trek the Next Generation is
you're really it's your your love affair with Star Trek is it?
It's where it began and it's your kind of go to.
Yeah.
Why is that?
I think, you know, however much I complain about the kind of space
problem of the week, you know, the way that it's designed for
syndication, so there are no consequences and no one changes and
nothing different happens.
You know, no one learns anything particularly in any given
episode.
I just think that there's something fun about that.
And I love the space problems format.
However much I make fun of it.
The idea that you have these group of competent people, a world
that obeys certain rules, and then every week you throw a problem
at them that has to be solved.
I think it's really fun.
But I also think there's a historical reason for it.
Like, Star Trek the Next Generation comes out when Doctor Who
stops.
It's the 1st show that maybe the 1st American show that I'm ever
really properly, properly interested in.
And I remember reading stuff, like the internet was kind of
starting, you know, everyone goes onto the internet in 1993 or
whatever.
And I guess the age that I was at.
I remember cycling from video store to video store to try and find
videotapes of new episodes.
I remember videotapes being posted out to friends of mine and
watching them that way.
Like, it was that time and just those people.
And I've always watched it over and over again.
Whereas Deep Space 9 is harder to dip into once it gets going.
It's interesting, isn't it?
Because you can't, you, that nostalgia and that, the kind of
discovering it at the time and friends that you made through this
and the discussion and the excitement, you know, and obviously I
had that with the S9 when I watched that with my mum.
Yeah.
I can't remove that.
So when I watch it, that love just pours out, me, even if I'm
watching Move Along Home, you know?
Yeah, and I guess that's it too.
Because it's just a TV show.
When it face plants or does something stupid.
That's fun.
Like, I love that.
I don't think I would love the show if I did it routinely and what
you said before about series 3, 4, 5, and 6 just being incredible
is true.
But some of the some of the next gen dubs are the most glorious
episodes of stuff.
Some grosser.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I love that to death.
That's awesome.
And so that's fun.
Like when it's fun and it's silly and it's something that you can
make fun of.
And, you know, like my other loves are Doctor Who and James Bond
that work in the same way, you know, they're often just great, but
when they're crappy, they're hilarious.
All right, it's time to select next week's episode, and I have
control of the Randomiser, so I am at untitled Star Trek project
com slash randomiser, and I am going to choose an episode from one
of the following 3 series.
I want you to see if you can guess why.
Star Trek the animated series.
Because we haven't done it.
Yep.
And there's not that much of it, so there's not a high chance that
we'll actually get an episode.
So I'm willing to take the risk.
Star Trek Voyager.
Uh, because it's...
What we've just said, uh, in all good things, is either brilliant
or brilliantly terrible.
Yeah, yeah.
And we haven't seen it watch an episode for a bit.
Star Trek Enterprise.
Oh, I don't know why you chosen that one.
I want to do some 90 Star Trek.
We've been a little bit Kurtzman heavy lately, and you know, 90
Star Trek is the bulk of Star Trek, and we've done a bit of Deep
Space 9 lately.
So I wanted to choose the 290 Star Trek series that perhaps we
haven't done that much of and then throw the animated series in
just an element.
Yeah, to add an element of risk to the proceedings.
Is it that bad?
I'm buying my nails now.
All right, I'm going to press a button.
Oh, Jesus Christ.
Your random Star Trek Voyager episode is spirit folk.
Oh, my.
Talk about face planting.
I mean, it's like literally...
The only episode that's worse than Fairhaven is Spirit Five.
So bad.
We have an out and out badge.
Is it the one where Janeway has the boyfriend that she...
No, that's Fairhaven.
Spirit folk was a sequel they were forced to do because they built
all the sets.
So they hated it again and cast the people's name.
And the doctor was like a terribly like appalling Catholic
priest.
It's all very problematic.
No, let's not do that.
Awful.
Maybe if we we do up the long ladder.
That can be our offensive Irish stereotypes episode.
Well, then we'll do the one where the leprechaun turns up on...
Oh, I do love that bit.
Do you not remember that bit where he's like, um, he's Rumpo
Spielstein, and he's like, oh, fine.
Now everyone knows my name.
All right, here goes.
Ooh, ooh, Q2.
Series 7, episode 19 of Star Trek Voyager.
That is... another Q episode.
I don't think it's very good, but it has some very good scenes in
it.
But does it have Susie?
Is it news?
with John Delanti's son.
He turns he turns engineering into a nightclub.
I script 7 of nine.
And in a fabulous moment.
She's like, what, do you think I'm actually bothered that I'm
naked?
You have a look. don't care. gorgeous.
Yeah, she is.
Maybe not 2 cues in the row, though.
No, I think you're right.
Okay, this is Enterprise.
Series two, episode nine. singularity.
I have no idea what that's about.
Although it's called singularity, so it sounds very boring.
Yeah okay.
Okay.
It's Star Trek Voyager again.
We are reaching embarrassment level, so we have to pick something
quite soon.
Okay, cool.
Season four, episode six, The Raven.
That's an interesting one.
That's that's the one where 7 of 9 is having like flashbacks of a
bird and it takes it to the ship.
I think it's our parent ship that's crashed.
So it's a character heavy.
Seven's discovering her humanity episode.
Hmm, what do you think?
Yeah, I think it's an interesting one to talk about.
I kind of wanted to just do an ordinary episode.
You know, which is why I made that choice.
I just wanted to do just like, you know, what's on Voyager this
week.
And so maybe that's okay.
What do you think?
Yeah, I think that would be that would be an interesting one.
Okay, cool.
Let's do it.
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
You can find us online at untitledstar trekproject.com where you
can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 1st of March 2022 and released on
the 4th of March.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager, the Raven.