Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we are back for the end of the year, and we are celebrating
the end of 2025 by watching Deep Space 9, season 4, episodes one
and 2, The Way of the Warrior, which 1st screened as a double
length episode on the 2nd of October, 1995.
So 30 years ago.
It's directed by James L. Conway, written by Ira Stephen Bear, and
Robert Hewitt Wolf.
Oh, those are names to conjure, don't you think?
Yeah, yeah.
Oh my god.
I've told you, I've watched this 3.5 times since it was chosen
last week.
I work in retail.
It been a hard week.
I need as much fun as I can get right now.
I do have one big question for you, though.
Why does untitled Star Trek Project Hate Todd Bealby?
You know, we invite him on his ambition to be on one of these
episodes. and we force him to watch Star Trek 5, the final
frontier, and then the very next episode that he chooses.
One of his all-time favourite episodes.
The Way of the Warrior.
Sorry, Todd, but thank you.
He repaid our meanness with the ultimate kindness, really.
It's teaching us to be better people, don't you think?
I think he is.
I think this is incredible.
And it's one of 3 episodes of Deep Space 9 that are feature length
that are twice as long.
And those are obviously emistry, this and what you leave behind.
And so this has, I think, a pretty fair claim to being a 2nd pilot
of the show.
And there's stuff that debuts here that is then present all the
way through the following 4 seasons and that creates Deep Space 9
in the way that we sort of grew to love it.
And it's always a sort of funny thing with seasons one, 2, and 3
because kind of the basic idea is there.
The cast is there.
They're doing the sort of thing that they continue to do, but this
episode really just kind of makes the show pivot and suddenly
everything clicks into place.
And so we get an incredible run from here on in.
There's been like a sudden creative adrenaline. pumped into the
series and I think you're right.
I think, and they are, they have been getting better and better
throughout one, two, and three.
There's some great stuff in three.
Well, there's some great swimming too as well.
But we raise the ceiling quite a lot here, you know, and show what
we can really do with the show.
When I watched this, what really stood out to me was the
confidence on display in this episode and it's unearned
confidence.
That's why it's so impressive.
DS9 debuted with 18000000 viewers.
By the time you get to the end of series 3.
They're down to about 5 or 6000000 viewers, right?
They've lost over 10000000 of their audience and they're not
attracting anywhere near the sort of audience that TNG was getting
as high, right?
So they knew they were floundering and you'll probably go into it
a minute, what they try to do here to inject more interest in the
show.
But it's like they've just immediately gone, we've got a fantastic
product.
Let's present it at its absolute best with this charismatic cast
with everyone getting great lines, with huge shifts in the
storytelling, with great development of the characters.
And there is some dynamic special effects at the end of this.
For 90s trek, with as much money on the screen as we can possibly
do it.
Yeah, the confidence on display here.
It just really impresses me and I think it's rare.
I don't know why I feel like a lot of Star Trek...
Voyager, especially, enterprise, definitely, and even moments in
Kursman Trek as well, where I just don't think those shows
actually genuinely believe in themselves or the product that
they're putting out.
This is a show that's just basically saying, we're fucking great.
Look at what we can do.
And it's great.
So they had been given instructions from the studio to kind of
shake things up a bit.
And according to the memory alpha page.
They had originally thought that what they would do would be to
get the Vulcans to leave the Federation for some reason. have a
thing, which is a Falcon story.
But there's a line in maybe the Dyer's cast in series three.
Is that right?
Where, where someone says, the Dominion really only have 2
challenges in the Alpha Quadrant, the Federation, and the
Klingons.
And that sets them thinking and they decide to undo an incredible
development in kind of the Star Trek franchise.
Because remember the big historical event that happens between the
original series in Star Trek, the Next Generation, is the alliance
between the Klingons and the Federation.
And that's central to what TNG is because TNG isn't about war.
It's about diplomacy and making alliances and building coalitions
and working together, having alliances, all of that.
And that's in there in the setup.
Oh, doesn't that sound so boring.
It kind of is.
But, well, you know, late discovery has that as a premise as well
and I think it works really well.
But, but what they do here, I think this is their best of both
worlds moment where they have a huge historical event.
So they had their historical event, which is the discovery of the
Dominion and stuff like that, but that's still kind of bubbling
under.
It's not a canon thing.
Do you know what I mean?
It's a Deep Space 9 thing.
Deep Space 9 owns the Dominion.
And here what we're doing is affecting the trajectory of Star Trek
history by breaking that alliance.
And I think, I think it's genius in the sense that it's more
interesting than just an all out attack, the Domitian come through
the wormhole and start firing guns at us.
What they do instead is they undermine the kind of geopolitical
order.
Think about Russian interference in Brexit, think about Russian
interference in the 2016 election.
Do you know what I mean?
That's a much more grown up and more interesting way for the
Dominion to behave, and it lets us do something new with the
Klingons, who we care about more than we care about the Dominion.
We just haven't seen this before, have we?
These seismic shifts like this.
It's so good.
We have seen it once, which was in best of both worlds.
We talked about that being pivotal to TNG, and it's the reason
that that's the thing that we think of when we think of TNG.
But this is this is Deep Space Nine's best of both worlds.
And of course, it manages, I think, to be better than best of both
worlds because I think the underlying show is better in all sorts
of ways.
I mean, certainly as a piece of television, as an acted piece of
television, I think, is much better.
But like best of both worlds, all the seismic events are in that
episode and then it sort of everything spirals out from that
right?
Here, you have seismic episode, but it's like a domino rally and
the events just keep falling over and changing as the show goes
along.
It's just such a different show.
Do you remember, though, in apocalypse rising at the start of
season five?
The big twist at the end of that is, I think Gaurons are changing
right?
And he's the one here at the start of this, causing this war to
undermine everything as a changeling.
And it turns out it's Martoc.
So they retroactively actually make this an entire Dominion plot.
It's so cleverly dumb.
Yeah, I mean, it is a Dominion thing.
Like the concern about the Dominion is causing this, allegedly.
But, of course, we start with the idea that the Dominion can hide
anywhere.
The opening scene tells us that.
And then the scene where we meet Martoc in person for the 1st time
is all about establishing our credentials as not changelings.
And so it was always there.
It was always kind of an idea that this wasn't the Klingon war as
such, that this was something that was happening with the
Dominion.
I just think, I think it's so incredibly good.
And then there's the other thing, which I think is great, is that
I don't think there's very much action here at all.
I think we get the uncloaking of the Klingon chips at the end of
the cold open.
We get a space battle where we rescue Ducart, and then we get the
big space battle at the end, and then we get the station being
boarded.
And so there are action sequences, but that's actually not much of
the episode.
And so most of this is done just by conversations between regulars
and semi-regulars.
It's just 2 people in a room talking over and over again.
But because we have a wider variety of characters than we have on
any other Star Trek show and a wide variety of standing sets.
I know this sounds ridiculous, but not everything happens on the
bridge and in the observation lounge, you know, things happen in
all over the shopping mall that is Deep Space Night.
And so there's a huge variety of viewpoints, a huge variety of
people with different interests.
There's a lot going on in all of the characters lives.
It's so good.
It's so well done, I think.
The other secret weapon, obviously, of DSPace 9 is this cast, and
I mean the regulars and the secondary cast as well.
And just everyone is on top.
They're just sparkling in this, right?
It's almost like everyone's been told, come on, this is our chance
to grab and it works.
They suddenly went up to about 9000000 viewers again.
So it, they, they gained sort of, okay, they lost them again.
I think they blamed the serialised nature of DS9.
I wonder if at the time we just weren't ready for it. like TV just
wasn't really doing that that much, not science fiction anyway.
Nowadays, it would thrive, you know, like Jesus Christ.
Yeah, and I was just bouncing from scene to scene and you know
me.
I love hanging on DS9 and I love being with these characters.
But when they're as well written as this.
I mean, the scene between Cork and Garak at the bar, you know, the
bit between, I'm not just going to mention Garak, I promise.
The same between Garak and Odo on the promenade, the bit between
Garak and Brashir after he's beaten up.
I mean, okay, I will mention Garak a lot, yeah.
I mean, do politically manoeuvring his way through the Tapa
Council, you know, all of it.
But the real joy, the absolute joy, beyond bringing Michael Dawn
in, which was just inspired.
And it didn't have to work, right?
There could have been huge Kate Mulgrew levels of resentment from
this crew.
I think Terry Farrell helped because she had a great friendship
with Michael Dawn.
And she's like, Michael's come in.
My God, great.
And they all just embraced him.
And he actually says, it's out there in interviews and people that
love TNG, I apologise.
He said a lot of his best work was on DS 9.
A lot of the best writing that he got was on DS9.
And I think it does take him a little while to settle in in four
but when he does and they give him the relationship with Dax and
all of that stuff, he just is wonderful.
But the biggest surprise here is Avery Brooks for me, who finally
gets to shave his fucking air off, get his go-to.
He gets to look like that character from TJ Hooker.
That's how we wanted to play the role all along.
And it's like the shackles have gone off him and that quiet, softly
spoken person, command of Cisco from the 1st 3 seasons, is out and
Captain Cisco, you know, screaming, fire.
Every 5 minutes is in.
And Jesus Christ, man.
I just can't get enough of him.
I wonder, I wonder, and I've never heard him interviewed on this
subject, whether, like, it's telling that when we get our 1st Star
Trek series with a black lead, he is still outranked by the white
leads in the 2 other shows that are running at the same time.
You know, they certainly enforce the hair on him.
They didn't want him to look too alpha male, you know.
Yeah, I think that he underplays it so as not to scare the viewers
at home.
I mean, I still think he's compelling even in the early series.
I think it's quite nice to have a sensitive black family man
leading the show.
All of that stuff's beautiful.
We've talked about that.
I think that's really stunning.
And he's just so good in this.
And also, like now you've got 2 black men on the regular cast, and
Michael in this, I think, is just extremely good.
They look at his character because they're Deep Space 9 Riders, and
they spend some time thinking about what's happened to this
character since generations of what his life is like.
And they get warf, I think, better than the TNG writers do.
I think, you know, the TNG writers have an idea for wharf that
doesn't work.
They discover that Michael can be funny and they let him be funny
increasingly.
They do, and I think it's mostly royalty more.
They do sort of talk about the outsider status that he has both in
the Federation and in the Klingon Empire, and that's Ronald D
Moore. and so Ronald D. Moore creates that.
He's still on board at this point.
Worf isn't being taken in a new trajectory, but he's being written
by people who are more thoughtful about what his background is and
who bring that to the show in a way that Star Trek, The Next
Generation, isn't really the sort of show for, I guess.
The biggest change to war.
Oh, long run in joke with Warf on Star Trek Project is on TNG is
always wrong.
Well, yeah, yeah.
The biggest change is frequently on DS9. is often right, which is
quite refreshing, you know?
But they still do make him funny.
I mean, his line, nice hat in this match.
But it's like a reference to the survivors.
Remember he walks into Kevin and Rashon's house and he goes, nice
house, you know, good tea or whatever.
You know, that that sort of comedy that they learn that he can
do.
They just get him to do it immediately.
And that's one of my favourite scenes in the episode.
It's one of the fun ones that isn't cut for the two-part version
for syndication, but just him saying nice hat.
And then Kira's massive, abject embarrassment at it.
And then she has to kind of fight her way out of the hat. so
good.
I will not be on demand.
I am the 1st officer on this show. bless it.
But like you look ahead. you know, we've already done far beyond
the stars.
Do you remember Michael Dawn in that, you know, just wonderful
very funny.
Do you remember him in?
Take me out to the hola suite, you know.
Find him and kill him.
You know, like, he has a great time on DS9.
Yeah, it was a really savvy move.
It didn't have to work, but it worked like Gamebusters.
Well, what do you think?
Should we watch it?
Oh, please, you better prepare yourself, though, for a few quotes
along the way.
All right.
I think this I don't often get to say 90s trek dialogue sings, but
yeah, it's pretty good here.
I'm sure you'll be there to give us the, as you know, Bob lines
along the way.
I do have some dialogue to make fun of.
Okay, great.
All right.
Here goes.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
Who are those people?
Okay.
I don't know.
All right.
So, um, we start and this is very clever, I think, because we
think that we've started in the middle of things.
The adversary ends with someone talking about the threat of... of
say we're still here.
No, we're already in.
No, I know.
He goes, you're too late.
We are everywhere.
We're everywhere.
Yeah.
That's a great life.
So yeah, we're like, what the hell is going on here?
They're all running around the station with gums.
But you get the male and female league leads with big guns.
Do you know what I mean?
running around the station.
All we want in life.
Absolutely.
Kira's donning her Farrah Fawcett hair here for season four.
I actually don't hate that hair, I have to say.
Oh, he was the duvet all along.
There's your 90s, sir.
Odo changing affair. special thing.
I mean, look at this.
We doing a crane shot down the Promenade.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's a feeling of space here, isn't there?
Yeah.
Well, they've got the big enough set that you can actually run for
about 10 seconds.
You'd have some trouble on 2 inches, wouldn't you?
Maybe the corridors, but that's about it.
You'd have to cut.
Oh, look. comes morphing out of the information system on the
promenade.
Yeah, yeah, your notice board. says O'Brien.
So it was Odo all along.
Yeah.
Well, that now we understand the line this changeling knows the
station as well as we do, which was a pretty good line from early
on.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think this is a really great way of selling it and
reminding us of the Dominion immediately after the adversary, but
before this feint where it becomes about the Kleons.
Oh boy. everybody's here.
Oh, and here comes Quark.
He's just...
He goes, look, you know, do you think if you might know when they
might catch you next time, you know, we can... we can do a little
better.
We can have a sweep.
But this is the sort of the big difference between T and G, right?
Who would come in and be funny in the after a sort of opening
action sequence like that?
You just Troy?
You know, like...
Oh, now Kira does her administration and then we're straight to
Cisco's quarters to see one of my favourites, Penny Johnson
Gerald.
Penny is here.
Boy, oh boy.
And look at these two.
It's actually really quite nice because there is a kind of they're
working together.
Remember the show stars?
Jesus Christ, yeah, yeah.
Cisco said in the 2nd episode, you go over my head again, Major.
I'll have yours on a platter, all right?
But they've they've nixed that.
That is now the, that's now, they're working together.
Look at Penny's beautiful blue dress.
She looks stunning, doesn't she?
She's mid 60s as well.
And this is her seeing him with a shaved head for the 1st time and
she likes it.
She's saying to Ross, well, look at that.
I got my ass all over his head, all right.
You see that beautiful man on the screen.
I get touch all day.
All right, you better be jealous.
She is...
So please check out.
Check out her interviews because she just laughs the fact that she
gets to touch Avery Brooks.
Oh, this lot made me laugh.
Bloody solely and silk.
It couldn't just be silk, could it?
No, well, the Tholian Web.
They're weavers.
You know, like it's...
You know, even though it's kind of ugly, I don't know what Cisco's
wearing, like sort of clash of colours and things.
Well, I think that we're trying to look a little bit more African
or something?
Is that the idea?
I think he starts to have more say in the outfits.
And so I think he tries to make it look a little bit less kind of
what do you call it?
Um, uh, American apparel or something?
Yeah, you mean.
It looks like?
The gap.
That's it.
Did you see that?
Just see a real baseball match on Cestus 3.
Ancestors 3..
He's obsessed with the goal, man.
Oh, what's this going about for doing that, I wonder.
That's like a nice student.
It looks great.
His father always said, you know, way to a woman's heart is
through her stomach.
So it's my heart, you're up as well.
I like that.
Doesn't stop smiling when he's looking at her.
That's why you're sold.
I mean, why wouldn't you smile?
Look at him.
I actually like the fact that they're back and forth and they
don't meet each other.
They're both busy.
They both have their own jobs and things are poorly timed and the
meeting in the 2nd half between the 2 of them before he goes off.
I think he's wonderful.
It's so good.
And that's when that really hot kiss takes place.
I like the fact as well, they're setting up for the calls here as
well, because she asked, what are they doing in the cargo bay?
And she goes, no, no, you were lying to me now.
And so she's already doing those runs at the moment for the
marquee.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Yeah, there's lots of things bubbling that we don't know about.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, God, look, Kira's now interrupting dinner. for God's sakes.
Yeah, yeah, of course.
But he's the star of a TV show.
He has to expect it.
He knows that where.
Please, can't I have a Reaching the end of the cold open.
It's the rarest of things that romance in 90s trek.
Please let me indulge it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it is very romantic.
I think this sells it when she comes aboard again later.
You know, it's even better, if anything.
I like to think, you know, because she's Cassidy and she's her own
woman.
She just sat down and enjoyed the meal anyway.
I hope she did.
Yeah, it would be a shame for it to go to waste.
Nathan, look how sexy that Klingon ship is.
I mean, it looks absolutely massive.
So there are 2 types of Klingon chips on, on, on TNG, and this is
one of them.
He's our 1st Martok, by the way.
This is Martoc appearing for the 1st time.
Chewing the scenery does not begin to describe what J.G. Hertz was
doing in this.
He's really good.
It's incredible.
He just lands fully formed.
Doesn't have a failing for his life.
You know, we will be ready for them.
So then we so we get a few of these Klingon tubes, but some of
them look heaps like the ones from TOS.
There's a model that they bring in that looks heaps like a TOS
one.
And just that shot of just, it's very short.
It's only a couple of seconds.
It could have afforded to be longer if they'd had the money, I
guess, where we just gradually pan around and just cling on to
decloaking all over the place.
We have never seen anything like that on DS9 before, right?
We can never usually afford more than one or 2 ships.
So the fact that there's 10 on the screen is something.
I mean, by the time we get the sacrifice of angels, there's 1500
ships on the screen, but we've got CGI by then.
Now, is the new, is the new, are the new titles series 3 or series
four?
It is series four.
There is a version of the theme for Way of the Warrior, which is
slightly tweaked for the rest of the season.
They weren't too happy with the, I don't know if it's the bass or
something that was happening with the music in this episode.
So it's only in this episode that it sounds just like this.
But it is an improvement, I think.
And they've added all the different ships coming in and out, and
of course, my favourite man flying through space to the upper
pylon.
Now, remember how, how spare those opening credits seem at the
very beginning, where you've got that big shot of space and then
the tiny little station appears, remember?
And then there's nothing around it.
Like, I think, like, there's nothing around it.
And it's lonely and distant, and in this episode, that premise
goes away, and it just becomes a hub, like one of the most
important places in the quadrant.
And that really, really only properly lands here, I think.
What's the line in buy Inferno's light?
Five years ago, nobody knew anything about Deep Space 9, and now
all our hopes rest here.
They're really trying to make it, but almost like the centre of
the alpha quadrant now, aren't they?
Like this is the hub. is where all the excitement is.
And they do it without kind of ruining anything.
You know, it's not, it doesn't, it still makes sense in story, I
think.
You know, Nathan, I can't help but notice.
You know, the Klingons are being unusually quiet in Quarks today.
What is all this stuff about the sand piece?
I mean, this is actually cut from the, this is cut from the, the
two-part version, which I watch in preparation for this. and Yamak
sauce.
Running jokes.
That was from Progress.
But also the sand piece.
Do you remember the sand piece?
That was in series 3 where someone goes to Quark. you know, try
one of these.
He goes, ooh.
Because I reached my drink straight away.
He goes, I know, it takes away the saliva in your mouth.
And so there's, that's a running joke too.
Well, I mean, that's why you serve peanuts in a bar, isn't it?
so that people drink more.
So this scene was missing from the version that I saw, and because
this is a fun scene that is Quark doing things that aren't about
the war.
And then the next scene as well, which is in the holo suite with
Dax and Kira is also kind of... taken away that scene, especially
for the gift that we get.
We'll get there.
Oh, this is O'Brien's great.
He goes, I'm going to go and talk to the Klingons and ask them
what they're up to.
No, don't.
I don't want them to know we're up to you know?
But you know, like, this is why I love DS9.
They're just hanging.
They're talking about silly stuff.
This stuff's important.
This is what we're trying to protect every time the station's
attacked.
This is the stuff that we want, you know?
But this is the scene also that establishes that we have friendly
relations with the Klingons just in case you're tuning in for the
1st time with making that clear.
They see now.
So Martok cuts his hand, and of course, we're doing blood
screenings in the middle of the season in home front.
So this shows that that's a fallacy from the off.
But do you remember who makes it clear that it's a fallacy in home
from?
Uh, it's Peters, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's Cisco's dad who says, you know, you're a shape shifter.
You get a victim, you absorb their blood, and then you admit it on
demand, you know, on demand.
But I like the fact that because of the retroactive twist about
Martoc, that means you've got a new reading on this scene.
That isn't here now.
Now, it's just no, they're not changelings.
No, that's it.
It's brilliant, isn't it?
And I think that's really good.
Because it's a thing you like, isn't it?
The thing you like about this show is how they improvise.
Well, the writers don't know.
These isn't Babylon 5.
The writers don't know that Martoc is a shapeshift.
They discover that that would be a brilliant thing to do.
You know, because they see where Martoc's going.
They've got J.G. Hertzler.
That incredible twist that we've already talked about, where we
discover him in the in the prison, in the Dominion prison.
I think as well, we've J.G. Hertzler and God, who plays Gowran?
Robert O'Reilly, right?
You've got 2 swaggeringly theatrical performances there where you
can absolutely believe that this version of the Klingons will come
in, you know, like big bullies and say, no, right, we're literally
going to Cardassia, we're going to give them a bloody nose.
Oh my god.
All right.
So these are very sort of standard white guys, but holy cares.
Look at that.
I must say that Malco's package is very generous.
But I did, I love this scene.
I love Kira going, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I used to make believe that the Cardassians will stop killing the
Bajorans.
And then immediately she apologises and goes, I'm so sorry.
You've tried to give us a fun day and I'm trying to ruin it by
being, you know, boring Kira and it.
He's a terrorist.
She's learning.
And she actually asks, doesn't she ask Julian and Miles later
about their Battle of Britain thing in the Holo Suite, in a
scene?
throws herself into it, though, doesn't she?
She, um, punches the man because I was playing a married woman.
So great.
It's so great.
But I love this.
I do think this is great.
And I also think, you know, Star Trek.
Like just the attitude to women is still a probably 90s track.
And so just having, and it helps, I think, that Dax was a man at
some point.
And so that gives them an end to just let her be a little bit more
sexually aggressive.
And, you know, like to come in with 2 hot guys, you know, with her
arms around 2 hot guys, I think is wonderful.
Like I just think that's really fun.
I know it is still exploitative because they're in a pair of you
know, swimsuits there.
But just having the 2 blowing a gun.
So in those...
Yeah, yeah. any shorts or whatever.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's like, there's slits in the side.
Did you notice?
You can see the dots going in.
I wasn't looking at the side over.
Oh, look, Dax is so great at this point as well.
She goes, I prescribe a strict regime of exercise, starting
immediately, all right?
Get in there with Malco and start exercising.
Well, no.
He's got to give her essential massage, isn't he?
You know what?
Like, they're fucking...
I thought the pair of them.
Why wouldn't you show them off?
They're so beautiful.
But they're, like, they're not there to be objectified by the male
audience.
They're there to, you know, have fun with the holographic guys.
I think that's really great.
Oh, I speak like that a lot.
Off the budget of this episode went on the extras. are so many
people in this episode.
Yeah.
Well, that's it.
Again, they're establishing this space. like the promenade, you
know.
That Bolian man, he didn't have to open up his shop there.
I wasn't needed, you know?
But remember, it's a space mode.
Like, and here's a reprimat.
I love this scene so much.
So it's Odo and Garak having breakfast together.
He goes, yes, I can drink the liquid, reabsorb it, and then fill
the cup up.
Garak just goes, how thoughtful of you.
It's kind of gross, actually, when you see the cup filling up
again.
Oh, the illusion of sharing the dining experience.
There we go.
Actually, they're setting up him there for series 5 when he's a
solid.
He'll be eating for real then.
Yeah.
Ah, Cardassia sealing up the borders.
So we're having all these dialogue scenes, but it is establishing
everything.
Yes, so that's the way this is done.
I mean, Star Trek very frequently will do.
Even in TNG.
They'll do an interpersonal thing, and then they'll interleave
that in the same scene with them doing a technical space thing in
the same thing.
Here, we have that little cute character opening thing.
This is establishing something that happened last season, weren't
Odo and Garrett going to have breakfast together at some point. at
the end of the 2 par where he tortures him and he goes, you know
he goes, my comfortable.
I don't believe you have breakfast.
He goes, I don't, but let's have something anyway. what they're
saying is doing.
Then it establishes Cardassia, then it establishes that the
Klingons are a problem as well. this line.
Actually, I don't think Constable Odo has a mother.
What did he say?
I mean, I can guess.
I actually meant to screenshot it and find out.
Someone knows enough Klingon to be able to translate that for sure
your research for this is deeper.
It doesn't go that deep though, does it?
Yeah, yeah.
No, I did think about it.
I did think about it.
So this guy, we had Hot Klingon last week on Star Trek five, and
this guy is also, he's 23.
He's younger than me.
He was born in 72.
Every time they bring in these sort of 20 something Klingons.
Remember it looking for Palm Mark.
They're always hot.
Hell, aren't they?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, can I be on the car, please, for that day, right?
Bring them all in.
Oh, jeez, which one?
Say that Klingonline, but with your shirt off.
Oh, Garak goes.
I didn't know you knew about that. amazing what you learn when
you're doing alterations, you know?
Which comes in later, obviously.
Can I do this line, please?
Well, let me guess.
You're either last or desperately searching for a good tailor.
I kind of wish that Roll D Moore had been here for this, though.
I think he could have he could have punched those lines up a
little bit.
Oh, come on, the bit in a 2nd where he goes, what is it?
fractured your clavicle.
Yes, but I got off several cutting remarks that did no end of
damage to their egos.
I'm a big fan of the punching the camera.
You know, like going out of a scene by punching the camera, which
we had Drex due then when he's punching.
It was Garrett Garrett.
Again, wasn't it, in Purgatory Shadow.
Do you remember the gematar punched in the face with a gun?
Yeah.
Oh, I just love Garak so much.
I mean, he just elevates any scene, doesn't he, Andrew Robinson?
He's so good.
He's so great.
But again, what's happening here?
I guess we're still just speculating about what the Klingons are
doing.
But each scene has something about the Klingons.
So none of those scenes.
The bath the bath scene is a character staff.
It is character things.
And that's the other thing too.
If this is a 2nd pilot, we need to establish all of characters in
their relationships.
I think that's the reason for the Odo drinking thing.
You know, why else is that?
Well, let's establish, though, these are changing.
Then he says that, doesn't it?
Um, that, uh, it could be a racist attack because, uh, those are
changing.
So why the hell would they come after me?
But they mentioned the Batreca nebula incident. what's that I
don't know.
I don't think it's from anything else, but it's a long time ago
they say.
So, uh, so again, it's just questioning what the Klingons are
doing.
Oh, I love this, the fact that the Klingons are cloaking and
uncloaking.
So you can't count how many of them are.
So it's like, well, why are they being so evasive if they're here
and they're here to support us?
Yeah, no, but they know that the Federation aren't going to like
what they're doing and they know that what they're doing is
illegal.
I mean, I always love sort of the investigation angle of this.
So all the stuff about them learning that they're going to
Cardassia in this episode.
I love it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, we have done a bit of shifting.
In, um, improbable cause and, uh, the Diet's cars.
Obviously, they try to blow up the Changeling planet, didn't
they?
It was a Tao Shiar and the obsidian order.
Yeah.
So we have sort of done a bit of this before.
It just feels bigger. somehow.
Well, I think because it's the Klingons.
I think just because of the weight that we gave the Klingon
Federation relationship, firstly, uh, in the character of Wharf
but more generally in TNG, Cisco, right, so this guy...
It just looks more threatening Cisco, doesn't he now?
Yeah, just more powerful.
Um, so this guy, this is his 1st outing is a Klingon, uh, but he
will turn up in an episode, he'll turn up in unexpected.
The Enterprise trip gets pregnant episode as a Klingon.
And he's also in think tank.
Voyager's thinking.
That's pretty mid as well.
Yeah, yeah, as another alien.
But this is his 1st go, I think.
So they're now flouting Bajoran rules.
They are flouting federation rules by taking what are they doing?
They're searching everything for... suggesting illegal search, you
know, like forcing people to submit to searches.
And it's not boring, so characteristic, right?
for the Klingons to sort of swagger like this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but them being told is illegal and then
proceeding to do it anyway. is the thing.
There's this sort of rumbling thing of like, okay, at what point
then does the Federation say enough?
Well, here he's finding a warning shot.
You know, like, so it's that's becoming a thing.
Oh, you see Dax's face.
Yes, Commander Kbar, I would like to talk to you now.
Yes.
What the fuck are you doing shooing at me?
It's outrageous, yes, it is outrageous.
You're right, but it's hard to tell whether he means you're your
behaviour is outrageous.
Couldn't he have had some comedy line. you know, we've been
informed, you know, that the commander of the Zosa is somebody
that you're having it off with.
Could that be why you're interested?
Captain Sisco.
Oh, this is his 1st episode as Captain Cisco as well, wasn't it?
The adversary was where he got his promotion.
Oh, okay. yep.
Yeah there you go.
So again, they're relaunching it.
He's Captain Cisco.
Yeah, which he should always have been.
Look at Penny.
She fills that screen with grace and beauty.
That tiny, tiny television on the defiance.
It's a small ship, all right?
But I have a TV bigger than that.
That is literally an episode called One Little Ship, all right?
is a small ship.
Actually, that's the runabout in that one.
Yeah, that's true.
Look, see, now, you remember how Pike and what was his
girlfriend's name?
Pike, his girlfriend in Stone Street?
Do you remember he was a bit embarrassed when they were singing
about their relationship over the view screen?
Cisco, don't care.
Cisco's chill.
I'll make you, I'll be, I'll see you in 2 weeks and we'll have a
good time, all right?
I mean, even look at this, right?
I know this is still sedate camera work, but it started off at the
other side of the room and it's just gently going in towards
them.
Like normally they're just stationary shots.
Well, again, what I said about the sets, you know, like I know
that sounds trivial.
I mean, it sounds true.
Not for 90s track, it's not.
No, this is good too.
I mean, I don't think we needed this explain to us, but I'm glad
that we did.
And I didn't quite get what the deal was.
So that's not he was forced to kill himself or he was forced to
kill himself or he was executed.
Like, that's pretty great.
And he was executed.
He was executed not for... doing the thing, not for doing the
searches, but for standing down when he was threatened by Cisco.
Like he was, he was executed, but not disobeying Bajoran law.
And they've just gone outside Bajoran space and they're just doing
it to people who are coming and going anyway.
It hasn't stopped.
So over the top, the Klingons.
I mean that's so severe.
Yeah, right?
What a drama queen.
But it's like that's a huge deal.
That a huge deal.
Okay, that's cheesy.
I know, but look at that.
I love those knives.
Look at the size of that thing.
Man, oh, Matt, the only person that couldn't deal with the
Klingons is a Klingon.
And now everyone watching is tuning in for Michael, and so we know
that Michael's coming now.
He gets a wonderful shot though.
How it pans up his legs.
Yes, you know.
It's a proper here it is.
It's great, isn't it?
polished his boots.
He absolutely, yeah.
It doesn't surprise me, you know.
Woo.
It's warm.
Yeah, and he's in that saggy fucking TNG outfit.
Oh, I love the fact as well.
Obviously him and O'Brien have got.
You know, do you remember we did the Image in the Sand where
O'Brien was going around after he lost stacks.
He was turning up on it at his house with bloody beer and saying
right, come on, we're going to talk this through.
That's a nice relationship Yeah, I think so too.
And of course, they're not going to ignore it on this show because
this show is all about trying to work out what we can do with the
characters.
And so this scene, which introduces Wharf and it doesn't happen
until more than halfway through that 1st half of the episode, you
know, 25 minutes in, is now establishing Wharf's new backstory.
It's so interesting, the dynamic he has with Avery compared to the
dynamic he had with Patrick Stewart because Wolf could be a bit of
a drama queen on the Enterprise and shower.
He never really raises his voice to Avery in the entire 4 years.
Like, he comes in deferentially, Michael, I think, and it's a good
choice.
Yeah, well, I think the thing that they've discovered about Worf
is that one of the things is he is a very, very good Starfleet
officer, and being a Starfleet officer is very, very important to
him, and that's because that's the place that he's found to belong
because he doesn't really belong just on earth among humans
despite being brought up with them.
He doesn't belong with Klingons.
And all of this talk now is about belonging.
Where do I belong?
And so this episode gives him somewhere new to belong.
I love the bit, which ties it into emissary where Cisco says, you
know, when I 1st came here.
I didn't feel like I belonged here.
I wanted to take the uniform, wrap my pain up in it and just toss
it away.
And we've been for all of that, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, really.
And it's 2 men having this conversation.
Yep.
It's actually, it doesn't, didn't strike me at the time, but
having, making Cisco disclose that to wharf, um, so early on, I
think, is is pretty telling.
The other thing they were...
And it took them far too long to realise.
The other thing they learned was that Michael Dorney is a really
good actor.
And they, you know, finally gave him material that was worthy of
him.
But you watch him in the early TNG, where he's just growling and
snarling and it's like, what's going on?
Yeah, they don't know what to do with him.
They don't know what to do with him.
And some fish out of water comedy and stuff.
That works really well and particularly for a character who
doesn't belong if you're going to do comedy.
The comedy is him, you know, fish out of water and that's fine.
I think that's consistent with the character and it's properly
funny and Michael does it really well.
Just love seeing Sin Quark.
I love the rowdiness of it.
I love the lighting ink walks, the ambiance.
And the fact that Arman Shimman is there with a witty line.
It's great.
I just love him.
I just love him laughing at dumb...
So much continuity here, isn't it?
Like so many references.
Yeah.
Yeah, because I mean, if they're trying to get the TNG audience
back, do you know what I mean?
Like that's clearly what they're doing, isn't it?
We've got Voyager now.
Not playing poker, are we?
It's dolls.
Oh, and a wolf goes, No, no, you're all right.
I'd rather not.
I mean, like again, it's character as well.
Do you know what I mean?
Like there's some suppressed anger.
Jesus.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's buried in the ball.
The board's broken.
Oh, here we go.
This is so funny.
She knocks out Lancelot.
She kissed me.
It's so funny.
It's so wonderful and this is how we introduce those characters to
watch.
This is Major Care and Areth.
Oh, 1st officer.
Yes.
Nice hut.
Yes.
She's dying.
She just realises she's wearing the hat and now she's struggling.
She's covered in layers of silk, bless her.
I don't usually dress like this.
She goes, you know, like, oh, bless.
Oh, look at how Dax looks at him.
Right.
From the off, she wants wolves.
Oh, absolutely.
Well, what does she say to him?
What does she say to him?
And then he goes, yes, I guess so.
And or something, like everyone's looking.
Yeah, yeah.
I don't know what that he's saying.
I mean, that could be any kind of flirtatious line, couldn't it?
So they must have intended at some point that they would get the 2
of them together.
It's very early that they realised that they were going to do it.
It's in the Sons of Mogue and there's a scene where they're in a
holodeck fighting each other and they were like, God, this is so
hot.
What are we doing?
Let's get them together quick.
But there's a scene here in this episode about that as well.
And just the way that she looks at him in the way that she flirts
with him in that opening scene.
Doesn't she say, what, don't go easy on me or something?
Oh, I love this where he goes, you are Drake, son of Martok, and
then just punches him in the face.
Oh, boy.
Here's the snarl from early TNG.
And we've got Dak saying he's good with our arms folded.
So that's our crown.
Well, yes.
But she's looking at him in this sort of lascivious way.
When she says he's good.
She doesn't just mean he's a good officer.
Like she thinks he's not.
That's right away.
Accepting wharf there.
Like immediately.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, there's no there's no sort of pushback against him.
In fact, throughout four, the avenue they go down is wharf can't
quite settle on DS9.
That's why it moves on to Defiant.
That's why he strikes like that great friendship with Odo, you
know, and please don't invite people around. you know, no, that
will only invite subsequent visits, you know?
They're great.
Oh boy.
Okay.
Yeah.
And so what here he's trying to find out, he's doing his
investigation.
So he's been introduced, he's spoken to all of the main characters
he's met everyone.
Wolf was being a bit of a bitch there.
Did you notice?
He goes, you cannot rob something that someone does not have. his
honour.
His son's honour.
He's mean his son.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But he's he's angry again.
Do you know what I mean?
Because he's a good man who wants to do the right thing.
You know, these are breaking treaties that they've agreed to.
This is dishonourable behaviour.
This is a wonderful friendship going forward.
The real Martoch and Wharf in the last couple of seasons.
And to show what good actors they are and how you respond
differently to different material.
The dynamic is completely different later on.
So this, which is very adversarial.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so that's a choice, isn't it?
They decide to retool the Martoc relationship when they bring the
real Martoc back.
Oh, that would remember that in the two-parter on the Gemadar
prison.
Oh, fabulous stuff.
That's again them improvising, isn't it?
right No, actually, we shouldn't have got rid of him.
Let's say it was a changeling.
They give him better makeup, too, when it's the real Martok, I
think.
He's not sure his scars. his teeth are always that.
Yeah, his teeth, he has that one big snaggle tooth all the while.
But it's the scars on his left cheek, which look like they just
bring, there's too much latex on his face.
Oh, I love those lies.
What is it, my mission while bring the fate of the entire Klingon
empire.
Jesus Christ.
You have.
Are you trying to reach the audience at the back?
Why don't you shout a bit louder?
It's terrific stuff, is it?
God, shit.
Oh, look.
I think that's the same costume, you know, this skeleton man and
the holosuite from TNG.
You know, they fight at that.
Yeah, yeah.
So, in reunion, I think, does he, Plankton, yeah, do this with him
but that is his callisthenics, it's not his program.
It's hers, but he's found it.
And this scene, holy crap.
I don't believe that they didn't think these 2 would get it on
together.
They've written this scene.
Did they know how Terry and Michael were going to play it or how
dare he was going to play?
How did you find the program?
It is just...
I found it.
Adequate.
But, but is it that Terry comes on board, like, just Michael turns
up and Terry is all over him from the 1st scene?
And then they decide that they can't, you know, they can't fight
against that, and that's where we're going to go.
And like, what was it?
Looking for Paul Marcus early 5, isn't it?
So, yeah, they're literally making those decisions now.
Oh man.
I think they must be.
I mean look at them fighting.
It must be incredible in bed.
I know, Jesus.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, the bad less are great.
I was I found myself remembering, 0 yeah, that's Foley, because
thinking these are hefty metal objects.
I can't believe they're doing this, but obviously they're not
hefty metal objects.
And, you know, stock cave set number 82 has made his appearance.
Yeah, it was just there.
And so they find a way to use the cave set.
They find a way to dress, you know, do the holosuite set.
You know, there's a lot of standing sets and they use a massive
variety of them and this conversation is when they're fighting.
There are conversations when people are being introduced to each
other.
There's conversations in the bar. there's a variety of things.
You don't realise that everything is just being conveyed.
It is all a series of conversations between 2 people. as well.
And it's establishing a ton of stuff too.
Yeah, really, really clever.
It's like you said, though, we've been in ops.
We've been on the promenade.
We've been in the infirmary, now we're in wharf's quarters.
We've been on the holo suites.
We've been on the defiant, like we've been everywhere.
Okay, so this song, we will next hear...
So the next time that we hear this, it will be the doctor and 7
singing.
Oh, it's so funny when they do it. yeah.
Oh, I don't know about singing a song and then headbutting each
other like that at the end.
So this guy.
So I checked this guy on IMDb, and he is famous for playing Wang
the Perverted in 1974's Flesh Gordon.
Now, when...
You're not serious.
So this came out.
This came out when I was when I was five. and I heard about it in
primary school and it's a sex comedy version of Flash.
Really?
I could never. have guessed.
And just for research, I did watch a scene from Flash Cord and it
was like...
So it did have Flesh and Dale, trying to escape.
I can't remember what the planet Mongo is called, but it's called
something rude.
I can't remember.
But they were being chased by the penosaurus.
Penosaurus.
One-eyed monster.
Stop.
Penis.
Oh my god.
Can you send me that link, please?
The fact that you said that flesh was running away from the penis
monster.
Hang on a minute.
You're prepared to do your researches watching Flesh Gordon, but
not to check out the Klingon vocabulary.
No, that's true.
That is straight.
The one thing.
The one thing that I did think that was really shitty in that
scene.
Do you remember in, um, in the pale moonlight, where they're all
in the wardrobe and they're all going, if only we could think of
some way of getting rockets to enter the war?
You're going to go, oh, if only.
And then here, this guy, this asshole who Raka says, oh, if only
there was some way that I could repay the debt.
And Fluff goes, hmm.
Funny you should say that.
You've just had a drink, you know, so you're quite susceptible
right now.
Oh, fuck, Nathan.
I love this scene between Odo and Worf.
Odo tries to reach out to Worf here and say, I know what it's like
to feel like an outsider.
That's how I feel here as well.
And then when Wolf basically just slaps him away.
Odo goes, frankly, Mr. Wharf, I don't care whether you do it or
not.
Renee, man, you can always rely on him.
But this is really good.
I think this is great as well.
I think this is good because these are very similar characters
aren't they?
Yeah, oh, yeah.
Very prickly, yeah, and just very funny together, though.
Like they shouldn't be funny together, but they really are.
But outsiders as well.
You know, outsiders.
I had to choose between duty and my people.
Yeah.
I mean, it's a Star Trek type.
Do you know what I mean?
Like we thought in a way that he was like Data or Spock, Odo, when
he 1st gets introduced.
But really, Worf was there the whole time, wasn't he?
And Worf is very like spot.
That's referring to the search, right?
The 2 pirate at the start of the beginning three.
Like, we just don't do this in 90s trek.
They have revolutionised how we write 90s trek here.
Yeah.
And I think you can afford to do that because this is a soap opera
audience.
This is an audience of people who love the show, who watch every
episode, who know everything about everything.
You can afford to do that.
We have spent 3 seasons building up Cardassia in a way that TNG
never did.
We often had Cardassian characters coming in.
But, you know, they we've really explored the obsidian order and
the Tapa Council and Dukat and Garak.
And we understand what Cardassia is now.
So if the Klingons are going to invade, that's big.
So he's now discovered it and that's what he's telling.
That's what he's telling Cisco in this scene.
So this is a, you know, follow-up scene.
And I do like how his investigation just it happens.
Do you know what I mean?
He discovers it very quickly.
Odo then tells us about the investigation, which I think is really
really good.
We don't have to see the entire investigation.
We don't have to get the impression that it's just this one
conversation with a drunk old guy, but, you know, that he's been
doing work and so we get it described.
Now we get, we move from that into the backstory where they're
sharing each other's backstories to one another.
Yeah, it's wonderful.
It's really good.
And it's character, you know, just DS9's biggest strength.
And then the other thing too, is that this is a good jumping on
point, it doesn't matter that all of this is referencing stuff
that we've seen. we're doing it I must compliment you on your
intelligence network, Captain.
One day you must tell me how you came across this information, and
he looked straight at war.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
There's 3 of them in the room.
A wolf goes, general.
Like, he's gonna try.
He's innocent.
I mean, do you remember you just said a minute ago about that sort
of dreadfully hamstrung sequence with them going, you know, if
only there was some way I could repay my debt, right?
So obvious.
And then contrast that with a bit in a minute where they don't put
it into dialogue at all.
It's like, how the hell are we going to let the Kardassians know?
And then you just have Garrett being summoned.
And it's all done just brilliantly.
Yeah, they're getting there.
They're getting there.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
On the memory alpha page.
It mentions that friend of the podcast, Una McCormack.
Um, this was her 1st episode.
Star Trek, what?
What was the juice then?
Yeah.
And she said, it's a perfect, it's a, you know, perfect jumping on
point, which is absolutely what it is.
It's positioned itself as the 2nd pilot.
This is a pilot, you know, friend of the podcast.
Tom Selinski. gave this 5 stars out of 5 and said, yeah, basically
this is our series two, episode one, technically.
Well, it is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I ordered his book today.
I was reading that book, you know, and there were some things in
now.
I'm going, that sounds a bit like Nathan Bossomley from Untitled
Star Trek project.
I wonder if he's been listening to that I did write a thing as
well.
Oh, you saw you in there, yeah.
Yeah.
I know.
I know him.
No, someone, favourite.
Oh my god.
That's it.
The Klingons are off to Cardassia.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, do you remember how long it chopped?
to get to earth in best of both worlds.
It was like about an hour and 15 minutes into the hour and a half
episode.
Like here, it's just moving, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But the scenes are all in the usual places.
I mean, best of both worlds in part one has that interpersonal
stuff with Shelby and stuff, which is actually interesting and
does give it a shot in the arm.
Here, we've got 5 to 10 times that amount of interpersonal stuff
going on at the same time.
The groundwork's been done.
That's a political thing.
Yeah, yeah exactly.
Whereas, you know, what is there to those characters in TNG?
I mean, really.
They are paper thin.
But, I mean, that's that's not because they're trying to do
complex characters and failing.
It's because it's a procedural and basically the focus is the
space problems.
So I love all of this as well.
These are my favourite scenes in DS 9.
When you bring together all the regulars, right?
And there's a dilemma, and everyone's got an opinion, and very
often, everybody in the room is right.
That's where the drama is in that there are no easy answers.
What they're saying is right, what they're saying is right.
Well, what the hell do we choose?
Yeah, yeah, you've got Miles here saying, what if the Klingons are
right about the Cardassian government and it's entirely
plausible?
Like why, why wouldn't it happen?
I mean, the Dominion do eventually take over Cardassia after all.
Klingons Wolf comes in and says the Klingons have been saying
we've been a piece for too long, that the empire has to expand.
Fear of the dominion's given them an excuse.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But again, we've seen, you know, how sclerotic and terrible the
Klingon Empire is, you know, and how the treaty and stuff sort of
papers over a whole heap of sort of corruption and weirdness going
on there.
See, it's interesting because what Cisco just said there about
well, who's to say they'll stop the Cardassians, the Klingons, that
they'll just keep expanding.
Now that's the route they go down with with the Dominion.
By the time we get to call to arms, they're going from world to
world, making their own alliances like the Federation.
So I think they did want to do that with the Dominion here, you
know, those ideas are bubbling.
But I do like the delay.
I actually don't dislike the delay because I think it's
interesting and more complex.
Gives us one of the best single seasons of Star Trek.
I think we ever had in 4 PS9.
The, I mean, they do come back and try and take over the station.
Yeah. you know, at the at the end.
Oh, I love the earmuffs.
I would love to see Morn wearing earmuffs.
Do you know what I mean?
That's a silly, cute line.
And because Garak's here.
You know, we've got Garrick's tailor shop, 2 scenes in the tailor
set.
You know, it's brilliant.
We don't even...
You know what?
I was having a conversation with Toby Hazoke the other day about
performances nowadays and how sort of naturalistic they've got.
You don't really get performances like Andy Robinson's Garak
anymore, do we?
It's very theatrical and extremely calm.
Oh, hard sorrow as well.
Yeah.
I just thought I'll miss it.
I miss that scary chewy acting.
I mean, they were summoned.
And he basically looked at the camera like a Hannah-Barbera
cartoon and went, why am I being summoned?
It goes, ah, Captain, I believe I have everything I need.
I think I think that Star Trek, like modern Star Trek is still
aware of that staff.
You know, I think it still has camp villains.
Look at Amanda Plummer.
Oh, we talked about the last time. heavenly.
I mean, there's just not enough of it, though, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, no one chooses scenery like Shatner and TOS, right?
Yeah.
Oh, and so now this this is um tying back to civil defence where
we learn that Garak and Dukat absolutely hate each other's guts.
Yeah.
But of course, who else is he going to turn to?
But I think, as well, what's really good here is that the
government's been overthrown, and so that really should be the end
of Gold Ducata's character.
So why, so what they do is they hang a hat on it by saying, oh, you
know, now he's the head of the, you know, his military advisor to
the Dedapa Council or whatever.
And then later on, when Cisco finds out about that or something
and he makes some snide remark about, you know, how he, you know
it just, it reminds me, there's a Blake 7 line about some
character who switched sides a few times, and I think I even says
no one could ever accuse you of being doctrinaire, and that's all
I can ever think of.
It's like, you know, we really want Marco Lamo in the show, but
he's a really actually properly good character reason for him
still to be in charge.
I mean, they get so desperate in Sarah 7.
They make him a cult religious leader. don't know, for what?
What the hell do we do with him this week?
I don't know. could be fun.
But again, that was just an A to B plotting scene, right?
We need to let the Cardassians know that they're coming, but it
was loaded with character.
Garak going, you know, we could sit here and remind each other how
much we hate one another, but you don't have the time, you know.
It's great.
It's like the characters are just come into fruition at just the
right time.
Just as the show is taking big risks.
Yeah, I mean, these character scenes are brilliant, but the thing
is that they are happening in the service of a plot that is, you
know, interesting and has stakes and is changing the status quo.
And so all of this character stuff is happening, but it's not just
character stuff.
This isn't just hang time on the station.
All of the scenes are about both.
All of the scenes are doing both things.
I mean, this is nearly the end of the 1st episode.
The 1st episode ends with Garon going, what is it?
Gloria, wait Shuan Cardassia.
Yeah, but so just before the end of the 1st episode, we've just
been told that the peace treaty between the Federation and the
Klingons is over.
It's done.
Yeah.
Yeah, they've ended diplomatic relations and that's huge.
So we're going into the 2nd episode now going, well, what happens
now?
Yeah And war thinking, well, where the hell's my place now?
Like.
But I mean, that's literally the thing that defined 24th century
Star Trek, isn't it, that alliance?
Oh, like is Robert O'Reilly into the show?
I mean, guarantee it's a cracker smile.
When did these guys become best friends?
Okay, when did that happen?
It has been too long since your last fought at my side.
I mean, he has got the craziest eyes in Star Trek, hasn't he?
But that was the thing, remember?
Remember when it was a choice between Duras and Gowron, and we
knew that Duras was a traitor and evil and all of that sort of
thing.
And then it's a choice, do we have duress or do we have Gaur on?
And then Gauron turns up and he's like a skull head with googly
eyes and scares the shit out.
Do you remember when it was a choice between Barral or Kai Wynn?
And we're like, well, it's definitely it's definitely going to be
parole, right?
No.
Nurse Ratchet's in charge of that planet now.
So now we're in episode two, aren't we?
Yes.
Right.
Okay.
So this is the this is the end.
And of course, Worf was never going to go and invade Cardassic
with the Klingons.
That would feel like a betrayal of his character.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, it was never a question, but they're at least making the offer
at the same time as he's not sure what he's going to do.
And, you know, we know, we know that Michael's, you know, the new
regular cast member. is in the opening credits, you know.
I'm very just sorry, this action.
He goes, I have loyalty.
To the Federation.
It's my, I mean, you wait till the end when they're on the
viewscreen.
Cisco and Gower on spitting lines at each other.
Fuck, that is gold.
Well, it's this guy. isn't Martok in the shot as well?
Is it is it Martok and Gaur on on the screen at the same time?
At one point, Martok goes, we can still win.
I do not, I do not intend to hand victory to the Dominion.
They're just crazy.
I mean, wharf's, um, wharf's always, that word honourable is
bounded around far too many in those Klingon dramas, but wharf's
always been an honourable bloke.
So, of course, it's... point though, isn't it?
Like that's part of the point of worst character. is that he's
grown up aspiring to be Klingon outside of Klingon society.
And the one thing he knows about Klingons is that they're
honourable and he's internalised that in a way that the actual
Klingons have all just completely forgotten.
And that's even present in those Ronald T. Moore TNG episodes
isn't it?
Yeah, well, even this, this is all continuity again, isn't it?
He goes, here's a chance for you to redeem yourself, Wharf.
Are we going to discommend you again like we did last time?
You did say when we got to suck in the wind, you're like, oh, we've
been doing this bullshit for some time now.
Are we still doing this?
Oh, they're best friends again now, are they?
Okay.
So we're all heading to Cardassia next, aren't we?
Yeah.
Okay.
Meanwhile, here we are.
It's a Pac-Lad.
Playing table.
Why not?
Michael Westmore went, you want me to do how many aliens in this?
But again, look, we're in a different part of the set.
Beautifully lit.
It's a terrific scene, talking about the best of both worlds.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yep.
Well, see, O'Brien says, at one point, I thought we were all going
to end up being assimilated.
Well, remember just by chance LeVar wasn't available in part 2 or
was had reduced availability in part 2?
And so O'Brien is in that scene in the laboratory?
Okay, yeah, with Picard.
So he has a bigger role in that than he had before.
It's just so living.
Up to its name of the static setting, meaning consequences, because
everything, everyone is talking about is stuff we've seen.
But also look at Wharf saying how he felt about being on TNG as a
character where he says we were like, you know, heroes in sagas
from great, you know, great sagas from the past or whatever.
We could do nothing wrong.
I just think that was wonderful.
Like that's a very, very warm tribute to TNG, I think, from a show
that's often much better.
And he's literally discussing 1st contact as well, isn't he?
Because no wonder the producers weren't happy.
Not 1st contact generation, sorry, when the ship was destroyed.
Yeah, I agree.
The producers are like, oh, this continuity.
What's going on?
But again, it's very clear who the characters are.
This is not just displaying the characters. presenting them as
well.
We get to know everyone really well, just from watching this
episode, I think.
You know, a lot of people sit and have their personal
conversations up on this top level, you know, overlooking the
Darbo table.
It's a bit of a nightmare.
Isn't this where O'Brien and Keiko had their date that time when
she was wearing the red dress.
That's right I love that red dress.
The hell is the Neither Writer Alliance Wharf, and why do you want
to go there?
They're a long way away and we will never hear of them again.
The big difference.
I think if you'd have just swapped one crew for another with Wharf
yeah.
I'm not sure it would have landed for me as well as he swaps one
crew for another, and he finds he finds someone that he falls in
love with.
And that's the big difference here.
That's why he beds in on Deep Space 9 because he falls in love
with somebody who is absolutely embedded in that setting.
So it feels like he has a place there.
Yeah.
Oh, no, I think, but also I just think he, he just, he works
really well in this context, he's being better written for, you
know, as a character rather than as a plot function.
Trust Quawkler.
I'm so pleased we got rid of all those Klingons. goes, I don't
care.
All he ever drinks is prune juice.
That's great.
Oh, man, every show needs a quark, doesn't it?
And this, and so this is the scene, isn't it?
Is this finally the scene where Cisco gives his bank story?
Yeah.
And, you know, we, we, we keep getting.
Man on man, sort of nice emotional saying this, don't worry.
Yeah, I like, I like too, that it's just I'm not going to accept
your resignation.
You know, he's decided to resign and you've got Cisco saying, yeah
you're not resigning.
You know, I need you.
And then he explains why he thinks it's the right decision for
Worf as well, but because Worf will do what he's told.
You know what he means?
captains must get a bit bored actually, because I think, you know
depending on what's happening from episode to episode.
People resign about 15 times a season in 90s trek.
Troy tried to resign a few times.
Gates did to Reich. did at one point.
Yeah.
How many resignations have I got this morning?
Okay.
So, here we go.
Yeah, so this is the same.
Cisco goes to...
I see.
You saw which way the wind was blowing and changed sides.
Yes, yeah, that's exactly it.
No one could accuse you of being doctrinaire.
So that thing, which is just there to keep Mark in the semi
regular cast and give him a role, becomes a character revealing
thing.
It's like he'll just do anything.
It just doesn't have real loyalties.
It made sense at the time. excellent.
And this is an established relationship as well.
Last year we had defiant where the 2 of them went off to try and
stop the marquee together.
Well, we saw, didn't we, in Waltz the other day where they end
up.
Yep, yep, yep, yep.
Yeah, so, yeah, and I quite like this too, because it is them just
being businesslike, and it is, like, this is not a story where
there's any actual villains.
No one's a villain in this.
Oh, I love they?
Look how fawning he is.
I have to say, how generous, Captain.
He goes, forget the speech to cut.
Meet me at the rendezvous point.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but do you know what I mean?
Like this, he's not, like, this isn't a story with a moustache
twirling villain.
I mean, it's got those big performances.
And, you know, in different contexts, changeling Martoc and Ducata
villains, but not in this, not in this episode.
I like how they're out at that scene.
He goes, I'm not sure I've got your confidence, but I don't have
much choice, do I?
And the screen's off.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I know you want to be out of that uniform, Mr. Worf, but right now
I really need you.
I've got a load of Klingons to fight.
I mean, Jesus Christ, man, when they beam on the station at the
end, there's 100s of the bloody Klingons.
Well, maybe 30.
Well, that's a lot more unusual.
No, there's quite a lot.
Yeah.
I mean, there's massive amounts of stunts.
We talked about how, you know, having 2 people have a fist fight
is a cheap way of getting action into a talkie story.
But this is not bad.
This is like lots and lots and lots of action with special effects
and gunshots and all sorts of things.
Oh, here's this scene.
Oh boy.
Pennies back.
Do you remember when she came to the holodeck when he changed her
schedule pattern and take me out to the holosuite?
Do you remember?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he's there with flowers going, oh, dear, what a shame. this
baseball match that I need you to do.
Oh, and they're still, though.
Still, he's being evasive with her and still, she's sort of a
bit.
Okay, what's happening?
Yeah, yeah.
So there's something, I think they're laying seeds of like, is she
all that she seems?
But you can't deny the chemistry.
Oh, no.
I mean, this, I just thought this was so great.
This was so good.
Look, he is playing it.
He's so like the smile and he's slightly bashful.
You know, like he's not super confident and then she goes and I'm
kind of going, oh, really?
And then she turns, she doesn't even turn around properly.
We don't get home. kisses like that very often.
She's going to her husband.
Look at me.
Look at her.
Oh my God, those luscious lips of his.
She does decorously put her hand in front of the actual keys.
You can see, though.
They are locking lips out a pair of them.
That's right.
But I wonder whether that's there so that they can properly go for
it.
I'm not sure I have a hat in life.
You know, when I walk away and then someone grabs you and then
throws yourself into an embrace with you.
But also, like Cisco doesn't do a, yeah, I've still got it or
anything like that.
Like he's, he's, you know, he's slightly abashed by it.
I thought, you know, it's nice.
That person on the con was there, but did you see how crazy eyes?
Can we put her at the front of the bridge, please?
don't have to look at her crazy eyes.
I don't know what that is There's a very funny moment in a minute
right?
Where they're fighting the Klingons and Cisco's talking to Takar
and Dax is in the background just going, Firefaces.
Who the hell are you?
Excuse me?
Oh, I say fire phases.
All right.
You're the science officer.
Oh, God, I'll never forget watching this with my mum, right?
This bit here where Bashir leans into Cisco, right?
and Cisco there winks at him and the chair sort of steps back and
my mum turned it on at this and she's like, what's going on
there?
Cisco winky and the bitch.
She was very confused.
Oh, bless.
God, we had a great time watching this one, me and my mother, you
know.
I bet.
Yeah, probably the best time we'd had since emissary, actually, you
know.
Right, right It's the next big attack on the station.
Exactly.
In fact, we have a reference to it a little bit later in dialogue
I'll point it out.
I remember she was very impressed, actually, that Kira got stabbed
at the end of the episode because she goes, you know, they never
hurt the regulars and she gets a proper puncher wound to the
side.
Yeah.
And I think they're reluctant to hurt women as well.
Like, I think that there's generally a thing that was what, you
know, watching Discovery and having Michael beating the shit out
of someone and being attacked properly, like by a man and it not
being in any way sexual and it being okay to think, wow, we didn't
used to do that in the 90s.
But they do it here with her.
Oh, this is the closest callback.
I think we get to best of both worlds because we see a minefield
of wreckage of ships now.
It's got to be a deliberate reference to it, doesn't it?
Like it just has to be.
But is this them saying, yeah, this is as big as best of both
worlds?
Yes, absolutely, it is.
And actually, it's going to get bigger than this.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and then I think there's that interesting thing where it's
like, we're really busy, and we can't scan for survivors here.
We just have to go.
Oh, I love to.
Like the cheers line there goes, that doesn't sound very
honourable to me and walk it in.
Actually, there's nothing more honourable than winning the war.
Yeah, but he doesn't mean that.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, that's that's him bitterly complaining about how these
Klingons behave?
Because Worf does think this is the wrong thing to do because
they're breaking their word?
Fuck, they're just saying...
I mean, that's why Bashir is their right to say that.
Yeah, yeah.
And he gets to agree with it.
Do you know what I mean?
Like he doesn't object.
It's not like that stupid thing where the other day where he
wanted to pretend that nothing was happening.
Captain Cisco's life.
You may leave the bridge, doctor.
Yeah. go and punch yourself in the face as well.
So we do get a little bit of action.
Actually, there's a hell of a ship exploding in this scene.
It comes riding through the wave of the shockwave of the
explosion.
Yeah, it's awesome.
Yeah.
Oh here we go.
Yes, this it's really good.
Is it CG?
It's great.
I just can't tell what CG and what's model working here.
Yeah, they composite things at this point.
They compositing shots with the, with the, um, so they don't have
to have the all of the models in the same shot.
But I think things are models rather than computer generated.
I don't know though.
You know, they get some leverage out of close-ups of Cisco
deciding whether to fire or not in the bridge of the fight. in the
next 4 seasons, don't they?
But he just looks so fucking cool.
Who cares?
Jesus Christ.
I do like that ship, I have to say.
Yeah, well, it's very different looking to anything else, isn't
it?
Yeah.
But it's still got the, you know, deflected dish and the Nasselles
and the main saucer and stuff.
I just like the fact that it's like a freebee.
And it could sort of weave in and out of things.
Really.
I mean, that's what they're going for, right?
A bit of dynamism with the movement.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You can't do that with the enterprise.
Well, they tried in series 3 of Picard, and it looked absolutely
ridiculous when that shit...
It looks so terrible.
I remember in, it's like episode one and 2 of Picard, where they
make fun of the shape of the Enterprise D. It's the fat one, like
the Mott Noah wants to buy the model because it's the fat one.
I really like the fact that the Klingon torpedoes, when they hit
the ship, it's like green fire exploding.
Yeah, that's a nice look.
It's pretty good.
It looks great.
Oh, there's that scary woman again.
Oh, no, we didn't see her right.
I think she was lit weirdly.
Oh, Dax, fire phases.
Who the hell?
Oh no.
Every time you see Ducart looking a bit panicked like that, the
ship is literally blowing up around.
No, he's holding it together. literally holding its chair together
right now.
Oh, and there's a...
I mean, they don't even forget Bashir, don't they?
That bit where Dakut beams in and he's like, hold up your arm.
I'm going to do a blood screening.
Oh, wait.
She's exploded.
What, that woman?
Oh, she'll never give those terrifying eyes to anyone again.
It's so stupid.
That blowing up the consoles is so...
Well, they rocks, Nathan.
Oh, look at this now.
They're ready?
Bloody hell.
That's fantastic. isn't it?
Yeah, see, that's compositing the shots.
Like, that's brilliant.
Is it changing?
I'm doing the music in this one because that bit of music where
the ship comes through.
It's like, dun, dun, dun.
Oh, no, it's good stuff.
Is it good?
Well, I mean, they nick music from the movie, don't they, for the
final bit set piece.
Oh do they?
It's from, is it generations?
No, no.
I think it's from Star Trek 6.
They still, they still a movie movie.
So that music where there's the big fight on the station.
That's why it's loud and dynamic.
Oh wow, okay.
It's not your usual 90s trek.
Oh, yeah.
This, doing blood screenings on them is so good.
Josh, in case...
Multok was right. because they could have been right.
Miles was right.
Marto could have been right.
Oh, there was a little detail earlier.
I just wanted to say, because I forgot earlier, where there's an
administration detail where Kira says to Cisco, I was thinking of
beaming down the Bajoran civilian population, just in case things
get ropey back here on the station.
And it's just those, I love those details.
Yeah, I'm like, it doesn't need to be...
Yeah, don't they?
Well, they need to.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Nathan, there are Bajoran deputies that are being thrown over that
bridge on the promenade with a massive green bolt in their chest.
Well that's right.
I mean, it wasn't like, you know, presumably there were lots of
children huddling in the kindergarten when the Borg were slicing
the Enterprise up in best of both worlds.
I think we could be right in assuming that this would be the only
action set piece in the episode because in the Dyer's cast, it was
just something like this, it was a couple of ships fighting
against each other.
And that's what we do in 90s straight, right?
That's all you normally see.
So when all the, when they go, right, we're heading back to the
station.
We've got company.
We're like, 0 my God.
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, yeah.
You would think that we head back to the station for the end of
the episode. right?
After this, they've rescued the Datapa Council, and then we have
the Klingons.
Yeah.
Oh, it's just a bit where we see that enormous Klingon ship blow
up.
I think it is.
Wait for it.
Oh, see, we're heading back to Dennis.
Wait, wait, wait.
Oh no, it's the Kardashian ship, sorry, ready?
Boom.
And then the Klingon ship literally goes through the fire.
That's wonderful, isn't it?
So good.
That's virtually the shot they did with the Defiant earlier, though
to be fair.
Although, I think, you know, we're back on the station, but we
still have like 25 minutes to go.
So I think that um, or you have to be expecting something.
Probably a bit more talk, you know, we're expecting normally.
I love the blood screening thing like this conversation between
again, What are we doing with Bashir?
We're establishing that he's not quite the callow youth that he
was 4 years ago. stand up to Dakar.
I find you offensive.
He goes, hold up your eye.
Yes, that's that's a great line too.
I thought it was annoying, but it's not, you know, like, you can't
is properly...
Odo says to Bashir.
Don't expect that Federation uniform to protect you when they come
on the station.
Here's a gun.
Yeah.
And we see him use it too.
Oh, it looks like I won Benjamin.
What that?
I bet it...
You would thank him for the rescue.
I know she goes.
Captain, are you aware there's a Klingon on your bridge?
Now, they have great tension between them, a lame o and door.
This is their meeting for the 1st time.
They crackle whenever they're together.
Yeah.
I mean, it's very funny.
Do you remember the bit where Dukart's the person and his Klingon
ship that he has later on, he's the one that takes them all to
Kronos when they're all turned into Klingons and Apocalypse
Rising.
He goes, no, I consider my amusement for you all looking like
Klingons adequate payment for taking you there.
Oh boy, oh boy.
This is one of my favourite scenes in Star Trek.
So this scene was originally written because the episode was
running short.
And then the episode ended up running long and then they wanted to
cut it.
I repair said no, right?
didn't it?
He said no way.
Yeah.
And then the other thing too was that these guys just wanted it to
be a goofy scene about root beer.
And they went, no, no, no, we're doing this about the Federation.
What I think is a funny thing about it is, have you ever tried
root beer?
It's disgusting.
Yeah, absolutely appalling.
You know what though, Nathan?
The more you drink of it.
The more you start to like it.
No, it's insidious. never given myself the opportunity.
So yeah, this is part of my theory that 4 Deep Space 9 and the
writing team on Deep Space 9, the Federation is more definitely
just America than it is on other shows.
And, you know, like...
Yeah.
So remember, it's still a USS enterprise, right?
So the idea is that it was the United States and it's called the
United Federation of Planets, you know.
So in a sense, it is America, but there's a sense, you know, they
put an Englishman in charge of the Enterprise D on TNG, and they
try and pull it away from there.
But this is a place where this is a thing where we use the
Federation to critique America from the left, yeah.
That's so great.
But it considers Quark as well.
Quark's position here, why he likes being a bartender.
He goes, now Gala owns his own moon and I'm stuck here staring
into the abyss with the Federation for my only salvation.
It's great.
No, but isn't that that funny?
Is it the funny line about how your charm would be wasted?
Like, he says that you never get to, you know, you get to interact
with your customers.
And Garak just hilariously says your charm would be so wasted.
It's wonderful.
The way the almond plays a scene.
He goes, you know, it's so bubbling and cloy, just like the
Federation.
Are they really playing it for real?
But Garak bigs it up there too, where he smiles and goes, oh, this
is someone who understands what I think.
Like it's, he's so presentational in the way that he acts.
It's wonderful.
Do you think they'll be able to save us?
I mean, they're in the same boat, a pair of them.
Yeah, that's it.
That's the worst thing about it.
They need them.
These fucking people that we've been lumbered with are our only
salvation.
It's such a great scene, but unfortunately, it's topped in a
minute. by the disruptor scene between Odo and Quark, which is...
I missed that because that is cut from the two-part version that I
watched in preparation. rageous.
Well, I think you actually took special time to show it to me at
one point. just as an example of what this show can do with
dialogue.
Oh, a cool, yeah, go.
The Klingons.
First it was a Kardashian.
Then it was the Domitian.
Now it's the Klingon.
He's just making fun of the premise of the show It's like this
bloody show.
How am I supposed to make a living in a place like this?
I mean, he was there in that 1st episode delivering, you know
condemning lines about Bajor on the Federation.
It's a, it's, even as late as the siege of AR 558. you know, he
was doing there as well.
He's a great character quark.
But here he's doing comedy lines riffing on the premise of the
show. isn't he?
like, isn't he?
He just making fun of the show?
I mean, though, too.
This is supposed to be a space mall.
Do you remember when they when they rip Bashir's hollow suite
program, you know, they do this a lot, take the piss out of their
cliches of the show.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That ridiculous secret agent program.
How many ships did they have there?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And they could duplicate them and stuff.
Several dozen. they're in an attack formation.
Even now, I thought, okay, fine, they're going to talk their way
out of this.
And then when Cisco goes, weapon stations, I was like, 0 boy.
No, because they have to make this land.
We're not going to be the status quo at the end.
We're not going to reinstate the, the, um, the treaty or
anything.
You know what the best continuity callback is, though.
It's the bit where he says about the geranium shields.
Yeah.
Which is from emissary, right?
That's what that's exactly the fame they pull off in emissary
brilliant isn't it?
Except this time, it's real.
It's real.
And that...
But don't you think that's the show having a do-over?
Like the trouble with emissary is that the show isn't tough enough
yet and that they have to, they're still so Star Trek for them
though, right?
They were vulnerable.
So they had to improvise.
And that really worked then.
That's right.
It really worked.
But now it's just like, no, fuck it, we're giving them big guns.
I'm scared you're going to mock it.
But when those bloody photon things start coming out of the upper
pylons, I just look awesome. love it.
It's like, wonderful.
They look great.
Oh boy.
Oh, here we go.
Yeah, this same.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You might end up having to defend yourself.
Yeah.
And again, why is this scene here?
Why is this scene here?
Because we care about Bashir, right?
And it to give these 2 a chance to just establish their
relationship again so we get to see that?
Has anyone not had a moment in this?
It's a true ensemble piece, isn it?
I think everyone's had their little moment.
Except that it does focus in the middle section, it focusses very
strongly on wharf as the 1st character, but they don't neglect
everyone else.
What was that alien?
you see that there?
Evacuated?
That was great, wasn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh here we go.
Come on, Quark.
It should be a new emergency.
I'm not going to any emergency show.
Oh, this is my bar and I'm going to defend it.
Really?
How's your plan to do that with this?
You're going to hit them with a box.
So good.
It's so funny It's absolutely not.
I thought you were the ship's cook.
Every member of that crew thought it was a food critic.
This is so properly funny.
And again, there's nothing in it.
Get quiet.
I guess parts of your disruptor to fix the replicators will return
them soon. rum.
I won't kill him with what?
With what?
It's so good.
It's like, when the, like, that's proper comedy dialogue that
depends on the characters.
The pacing as well.
They've got to get that right. you know?
And and what we do is we have a touching scene between Odo and
Bashir, and then a ridiculous scene between Odo and Quan, straight
one after the other.
And then a wonderful scene.
I wanted to make sure that the council members were safe. having
no doubt that your concern would carry political favour.
Oh, please.
It's when he stands next to him.
He stands next to him and goes, you may just need my help.
But it's also, like, you can't say, oh, Yeah, you're just sucking
up to the Datapa Council.
It's kind of like, really?
What were you doing?
Nathan, why don't you go back to your little tailor shop and sew
something?
Oh my god.
I fucking love these people so much.
It's so great.
Why don't people not like doing a style?
I don't understand you people.
I have to think so something should have been more specific.
Do you know what I mean?
It should have been about zippers or buttonholes or something much
more specific, it would have been funny.
Yeah, yeah.
No, no, like if it had been more about like actual specific
things.
That's always funnier, I think.
But just those actors. doesn't care to know about tailoring, I
guess.
God, I mean, they cast so well, these secondary cast, didn't
they?
They're all rewards.
They reaped by giving them lots of time to grow and develop.
Is this, like, this is our big scene now we're in ops for the big
climax, you know, and we think it's the climax.
We think we're going to talk our way out of it, but it's still 14
minutes from the end.
It is of no consequence.
Let's go.
This is all I want from television is too Hammy Klingons.
Firing against April Brooks.
It's all I need in my life Are you prepared to risk all out war
with the Federation?
I mean, it feels huge.
Yeah, yeah.
This is war.
Yeah.
But as we said, this is something very close to the premise of the
show.
Consider what you're doing, Captain.
The lives of everybody on your station are at risk.
I'm sorry, I know I'm just quoting now, but the lines are so
good.
Oh, was it?
You're like a tooth flesh old grishnarcat trying to frighten us
with your raw.
So there's a crappy Star Trek line for it. 5000 photon torpedoes
he just said that.
I mean that's quite a lot of torpedoes, isn't it?
Look at the reaction shot.
Like everyone kind of boggles and looks across to that guy and
that guy just goes, yeah.
So what's great in emissary, he says they also say it's a trick.
It's a, you know, fore on sheets and geranium shadows and it is
but he goes, well, what if it's not?
This time we go, oh, fuck it. invade.
Let's go.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, oh, that's a lovely short underneath of the Klingons.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And see these ones, the Klingons at the very tail end of that shot
it just like standard TOS Klingon chips.
So great.
They look so good.
A visual creative choice here that I just love, and it's when the
torpedoes are firing, the camera follows the torpedo all the way
to the ship and the explosion, and it's so dynamic for 90s Strek.
Oh, look at these coming out of the pylons.
I know, this is so cool.
Fire on my mark.
Here we go.
Could I do the torpedo noise, please?
So they look so great.
They look so good.
So we, and they just slam into the things, don't they?
Fireworks everywhere.
Close-ups on Avery Brooks.
I mean what do you need?
It's really good, and then the Klingons actually invade, for God's
sake.
The bit, the fight, look at the faces.
They're just going in every direction.
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because they're like those big phaser emitters, you know, on the
on the saucer of the enterprise.
That beautiful shock above the thing with the Klingon.
They do that a couple of times.
They do it in... as well.
Well, because you sort of see the whole battle from above, don't
you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Looks great.
And then Cisco goes, oh, sod it. weapon stations, fire at will
yeah just fire all of them.
I'm done barking the orders.
It looks so great.
And they've put him up against that red light, have you noticed?
Yeah, yeah.
This, that's the show.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. really good, isn't it?
It's unusually dynamic for 90s trek.
Yeah, yeah.
And yeah, you're right. slamming into the ships.
Yeah, yeah, it's great.
Oh now we get a whole scene in Klingon.
He even hams that up, look.
Look at their torpedoes.
I know how it blows the shit out of ops, look.
Yeah, looks great.
Oh, there's that guy. 2 people fell over.
Consoles are exploding.
Oh, wait, look, Dead Space.
You know the Klingons are about to beam in.
Yeah, they're going to appear. my only objection.
I do love all this action is look, one shot, one shot.
One shot, one shot.
There's not quite the chaos we get later.
But it's as leisurely as best of both worlds.
It cuts straight to the promenade and 2 men get thrown off their
head. off their feet.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then the way this transitions with the man falling over the
bridge down to a fight on the lower level is so great, ready?
Oh, there he goes.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Yeah, that pan was motivated by the guy falling off the
prominence.
This is really great.
And then Julian saves Odo.
Anytime after that conversation.
I find this hard to hard combat really quite distasteful.
I suppose you prefer the simplicity of an interrogation chain back
and then the zinger.
You have to admit, it's much more civilised.
He's literally massacring people.
Shooting people, yeah.
Yeah, it's true.
Oh, Nathan, man, this is the stuff.
Look at Avery.
Oh, this is where Kira gets stabbed. wait for it And she really
goes down as well. you see a bit of blood.
Oh, right in the stomach.
Oh, yeah, no, she's got, yep.
She does beat the shit out of those stabs.
She does it when she's pregnant.
She's a tough bitch.
Oh, Wolf looks cool as well when he fights Cleon.
Yeah, well, he was born to do that.
He takes out the one behind him without even looking.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
He just gets him on the back hand. punched in the face there.
Blood coming out of his eye.
I mean, Nathan, will you take a look at how many bodies they've
got clear up here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They're just.
It's huge.
It's ridiculous.
Oh, I did see stuntwoman decks there just for a second.
I mean, there's a pan across and you've just seen the bodies
including Kira.
Yep.
Wow.
There's a federation officer there too.
That was about 3 or 4 minutes of nonstop action. you don't
normally get that.
No, no, no.
It's really good.
It's probably good.
It is a bit of a mission statement, I think.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like nowadays, we get action like this all episode.
I remember hege enemy, you know, like it's like this pace all the
way through.
And I like that.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, I like action.
Look this, this is great.
He's a newscaster in this certain shock.
And you don't really need the firefight on the 2 levels there
behind him.
But you know, let's do it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
My favourite thing in that whole sequence, beyond following the
torpedoes, is the fella who falls off the promenade and it comes
to...
Yeah, and you go down and it's a wonderful transition.
Yeah.
Oh, this is great.
Maybe Gauron will be in the mood to talk.
Oh, and Cisco is so smug now, but he's got like blood and sweat
all over his face.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yep, yeah.
I can't remember a time when I saw Captain Picard looking like
that.
No no.
Oh, maybe Starship.
Maybe.
Maybe Chain of Command.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. was being tortured in that one.
We will not surrender, says Martok.
Yeah, and this is great.
So they actually do do their thing.
After the fighting, there has to be talking.
And they do the talking.
It's still Star Trek.
Do you know what I mean?
They still have to talk about what the right thing to do is.
And Cisco's lives there. is literally saying the writers don't
forget the stuff.
This is exactly what the founders want.
Klingon against uh human, you know, Cardassians against Klingon.
Federation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And how does he end it?
He goes, the more we fight each other, the less chance we'll have
to fight the Dominion.
Exactly what they want. good isn't it?
And so he yeah.
I mean, And because Gowron, so they're kind of positioning Martok
as a bit of a maniac, aren't they?
And Garon is more reasonable, even though he's googly eyed and
very odd looking and scary.
You have so...
I did against us in battle, and this we do not forget.
Wait for it, scary eyes.
Or forget.
Yeah, do the eyes, Robin.
Go on.
You should know everyone at home's punching me again.
Yes.
There's the eyes.
But again, that's an aggressive failure to reinstate the status
quo at the end.
And we're used to that.
We're used to that, but I think it's shocking in context, don't
you?
I do remember one criticism of that last action set piece being
that you don't see a lot of blood.
I don't really want to see a lot of blood in Star Trek.
Star Trek.
That's enough.
Like Kira's literally holding a bloody wound.
Brian's got blood in his face.
Cisco's got blood on his face.
That's enough.
Yep.
So all the all the civilians are coming back.
All of that laid up to that action sequence was just gold.
I still can't believe you had Ducat and Garak bantering whilst
they were cutting through a load of Klingons.
I mean, that's just DS9, right?
Voyager wouldn't do that.
TNG wouldn't do that.
You wouldn't have a comedy moment in the middle of a massacre.
No.
And and and the fact that you have, like, you've got our main
characters.
We've got a new additional person.
Sirix got the week off and we've got these 4 semi-regulars now who
are all just incredibly gray.
You know why he's got the week off, don't you?
No.
It's the visitor next week.
Oh, okay.
They're on form at this point.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Holy crap.
This is nice.
So now it boils back down to what DS9 is really about, the
characters and making choices.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So this is, it isn't until this scene that he says, I was trying
to escape the pain I felt after my wife's death.
I mean, it's a great journey, Cisco goes on, isn't it, for other 7
years?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but this, like the fact that he uses his experiences in the
emissary to help wharf in this new pilot.
The fact that he now no longer has the right to prevent war from
resigning and so he can only persuade him not to resign.
And that line there, running away, you can only run away for so
long, eventually the pain will turn around and catch up with you
and you will have to face it.
Yeah.
Oh, and this, it reminds me of what I've gained and who I am, and
that's being on the station and finding these people.
Ah, great.
But it's also wharf, too.
You know, like wharf gained from the uniform as well.
You know.
So it's the right appeal to mate to wharf in particular.
And after all of that dismissal of the Federation by, um, here you
have Cisco literally saying, I'm a Starfleet officer and it makes
me a better person.
Yeah.
And it's doing the Star Trek thing.
You know, like after all of this action and fighting and war
breaks out and, you know, significant federation achievement is is
you know, destroyed.
But we come back to these men doing the right thing.
Avery's so warm and gentle here as well.
In contrast to what we've just seen, you know, all the fight in
there.
I mean, he was a great choice.
I know I know he has his moments.
Yeah, but I just, I think he's a compelling actor to watch Avery
Brooks.
Oh yeah.
And now he's let off the leash a little bit too, which is great.
I mean, do you remember in the middle of the season, whereas Dr
Noah, the Bond villain.
Let off the leash.
So do you remember at the end of series, um, is it the end of
series one in the beginning of series two, Geordie and Worf get
taken out of the red uniform and put into the yellow uniform?
And the yellow is so much uglier, and I did think that there were
objections that the 2 kind of the 2 black characters were taken
out of the command uniform colour and put into the other colour.
I'm so noisy.
I couldn't have even afforded that.
I'm sure that I read Discourse about it.
I did try and look for it today, but I couldn't find a reference
to it, but his wharf back in that red colour, which looks so much
better on him.
And so we have O'Brien.
Well, that ends up with him, because obviously he is back in the
command program now.
He does want to be the captain.
And in change of heart where he goes off on the mission with Dax
as she nearly dies and he goes back and says her.
Cisco says to him at the end, you probably won't get a command
after this.
Yeah, you know, you chose, and of course he chose stacks.
I mean, of course he did.
Look at her.
Come on.
Yeah, know.
She's wonderful.
But there's an absolute mission statement here, isn't there, of
like, it looks like the Klingons aren't going anywhere.
Well, neither are we.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's it.
This is our new premise.
And they run with it until the middle of season five.
So they get some good leverage out of it.
And I know there's some episodes in there that you don't like, I
really like Naw the Battle to the Strong, which is the J and the
sheer one in the hospital, but it really makes the Klingons feel
like an encroachable threat in it. yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think it was worth doing.
And like I said, it does make the Dominion war a little bit more
interesting than just they come in in their big ships and fire
guns at us.
You know, it's more subtle and more complicated and more
geopolitical and that's what that's going for what this show is
going for and it does it really well.
Well, Nathan, I think we will, in the future, have wonderful
episodes of Star Trek to watch, but I'm not sure I'll ever be more
in heaven than I was in the last half an hour of that commentary.
Laughing.
And excited and quoting all the lines and being ridiculous.
I mean, oh boy, this is the sort of episode doing a commentary
with your best mate it's all about, right?
pretty great, isn't it?
It is pretty great. was awesome.
And, you know, I wasn't wrong.
It is absurdly confident, that piece.
Yeah.
Like there's confidence even in the fact that there isn't a lack
of action in the 1st half and that they trust that you're
interested enough in those characters and the shifting narrative
to be engaged with it.
And then they pay it off at the end with, what, fingers are pretty
spectacular, rousing climax.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I think absolutely.
With the kind of production it is in the kind of budget, it has.
I think this does the absolute best.
It can possibly do under those circumstances.
And it packs in much, much more action than, I think, you expect
that it even has that fake out where the episode sort of seems to
end 20 minutes too early.
Oh, wait, there's a space battle.
Oh, wait, there's a massive hand-to-hand combat thing.
Like, it's huge.
It escalates.
It's propulsive, but even the bits, which are the things that
people complained about on TNG, and rightly so, that so many
episodes were we're sitting around the standing sets talking, and
nearly the whole 1st half of that, more than the 1st half of that
was scenes of the regulars and semi-regulars, sitting around
standing sets and talking.
And what they did was they directed those dynamically, they had
more interesting sets and they gave all of the characters
interesting things to do that there are so many pairs on this show
that work, there are so many things that you can do while still
having a massive, massive, and brilliant and audacious, basic
plot.
It's really extremely good, I think.
And, you know, you might say that's a fluke, yeah, right?
Okay, they came in, all guns blazing, but I'm just going to name a
few episodes that are coming up, right?
The visitor, our man Bashir, home front, paradise lost, little
green men, rejoined.
That's all in the 1st half of series 4.
I mean, what a time to be alive.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to
work out where we're going next.
We have done perhaps one of the best episodes in the history of
the franchise tonight, and so it's time to balance that out with
an episode of Star Trek Enterprise.
Oh, of course.
Oh, doubtful was inevitable.
For a bit long discovery. actually, but I wanted to do enterprise
instead.
It was more of a chance of getting something dynamic had you gone
for discovery.
That's true, that's true.
You never know.
You never know, you never know.
All right.
So I'm on the randomiser.
Enterprise is selected, and I'm going to press the button, and
your random Star Trek Enterprise episode is Vanishing Point.
Season two, episode 10 from November 2002.
I have no idea what that is.
Do you know what that is?
I'm gonna find out.
So, um, excise this bear?
Thank God.
After an emergency use of the transporter to escape the surface of
a planet.
Hoshi.
Oh, becomes convinced her molecules have not been correctly
reassembled.
That does sound like a Barclay episode, doesn't it?
Yeah, you remember how we said that Voyagers mission was often TNG
only crap?
This does seem like it's realm of fear only crap.
And Realm of Fear is not that great to start with.
I mean, Gamma does give it a bam and an extra star, you know.
Yeah, 3.5 out of four, and it does have an ocean, yeah.
Up to you.
Well, I mean, you're never going to pick Enterprise by choice.
Like you might include it in the the entirety of the franchise
strategy.
If you didn't pick enterprise, Nathan, then we would only be left
with enterprise episodes at the end of this journey.
I don't know season 2 at all.
So the chances are that if we roll a season 2 episode, I'm not
going to have an opinion on it.
I'd be interested to see a Hoshi focus episode.
I would be interested to see how she do anything on this show.
Because Linda Park is good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And she almost never gets the chance to do anything.
And Jama does assure us it's creepy and psychologically compelling
with carefully navigated plot manipulations to keep you guessing.
Yeah, but Jama did think that Bem was worth 2.5 stars, to be
fair.
But then I've just seen it's written by Rick Berman and Braga.
I mean, I mean, you've got to throw a dart at season one or two
you're generally going to get written by Berman and Bra mostly.
Should we do it?
Yeah, I think so. let's do it At least it has the the Hoshi effect
you know, that's something new to talk about there.
Yeah, yeah. is something.
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com where you can find
subscription links and links to our social media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lahn.
This episode was recorded on the 23rd of December 2025 and
released on the 26th of December.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Enterprise Vanishing Point.
Sorry, enter there.
I've gone up losing my voice.
Oh, boy.
Oh boy, oh boy.
That was so fun.
I don't know if I made any sense in the last half an hour, but I
was just loving it.
I don't reckon you and I watched that together, but I think there
was one night where we were watching it at the same time or
watching it.
We watched it on the same night or like you watched it and watched
it was one of the things.
No, no, I reckon I reckon it was, as we were kind of, you know, we
were doing. what we were going to do.
Yeah.
But I think, I don't think that that got any way of the worry of
the 1st one we were going to do.
Like, I don't think so.
Like, I don't know that we'd watched it for way of the worry, but
we were watching it at the same time.
Maybe it was the 2nd one after in the cold.
Yeah.
Maybe.
Yeah, but I just remember thinking, because I remember you showing
me that scene.
The scene that they fucking cunt for the syndication thing, the
scene with the notes from, like, they've just got no idea.
That's not the most interesting scene.
Cut out some of the punching at the end and leave that scene.
Oh, I got some money.
What are you doing?
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Like, the, you know, makeup...
Come on.
That's right. almond.
But it was also just the genius of having the touching scene
between Julian and him and then the stupid scene between Quark and
him.
It's so brilliant.
It's just absolutely...
This show is like we're doing a war, but we're still going to be
having fun.
Like, yeah.
What you say about seven, right?
where we're really war heavy and we still play baseball when we
still have a heist.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, you've got our man Bashir during the Klingon war, you know.
Oh so funny.
I'll be ready for them.
Derek Walk, I've used parts of your disruptor.
Defend them.
Was it a replicator?
Yeah.
I think that's where...
Because almond and almond and Renee always rehearse together at
weekends whenever they had stuff together.
And that's where that stuff pays off, you know, the timing is so
good.
But it's you, isn't it?
I did the movie.
Yeah, it's me.
It's hard chosen.
Thank you, Todd.
I did.
What did you do?
You did the movie.
I did so it's my turn.
Okay, well, you can try and find something better than that
but...
All right, it's the end of the episode.