WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-01 at 20:35:55

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Hey, Joe. Hi.

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So, we're back aboard Deep Space 9 this week, or more accurately

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back on Planet Hell, stock cave set number ones, right?

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For season 6, episode 11 of Star Trek, Deep Space 9, waltz, which

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is directed by Renee, as we said last time, and written, of course

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by our patron saint, Ronald D. Moore.

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They can't ever quite disguise the fact that it is Planet How.

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I mean, they have a good go here.

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Lightning, wind, there's sort of Gubbins flying back in there.

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Oh, come on, they are trying.

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There's more atmospheres here than there was in Skinner Evil, which

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is just...

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Yeah, that's true.

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They're trying it.

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And to be fair, he tries not to shoot that backdrop as much as

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humanly possible, but there are a few times where he has to do

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it.

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So yeah.

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Like TV's moved on to skin of evil, but not that much.

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We still have the sets up, you know.

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We do.

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We do.

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What do you think of this one?

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I love it.

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I love this episode.

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I know you have more efficient with it than me.

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I think it's something that DS9 does extremely well, which is put

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2 characters in a setting on their own and allows you to see what

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makes them tick.

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And less Cisco, more Ducat.

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But any story that gives Marco Lemo this much screen time and

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allows him to work through his anxieties.

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It's basically extended a hell therapy on the hell planet.

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I just think it's great.

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I think it pushes too hard a couple of times.

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And I think they've got a massive, massive problem in that their

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villain actors are so charismatic and so likeable that they have

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to eventually write episodes like Empoc Nor and waltz to show just

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how truly evil those characters are.

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But it doesn't matter.

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It doesn't matter how many times you try and stress to us that

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Ducat was an evil man who raped planets and women and did terrible

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things.

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He's still played by Marco Lemo and we love watching him.

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It's almost a fruitless exercise.

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But a good one.

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So for me, this seemed like a very TV-ish thing.

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And normally what Star Trek would do in a sort of premise like

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this is that there would be a science fiction reason for Ducart to

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have the chorus.

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Would be on the holodeck or something like that.

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But here, they're kind of doing a conceit that's a little bit sort

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of daytime soap opera-ish, I think, by having, you know, various

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characters, it's some 3 different people, isn't it?

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It's um Wayoon, Kira, and Dema, playing aspects of his personality

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and he's kind of hallucinating against them.

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And so there's a level of kind of unreality to the premise for me

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that kind of fights against it being a sort of proper character

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study.

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What I think it is instead is we have this character, this

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incredible character.

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And we've kind of written ourselves into a bit of a corner with

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him.

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And what we want to do is we want to make him the big bad that

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comes up against Cisco in the finale.

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And they're working towards that now.

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He's not going to meet Cisco again until we're well and truly in

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the run-up to the finale.

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And so this is retooling to can't.

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And I think it does a really terrific job of that.

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We've had it happen before where he becomes head of the

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provisional government or something.

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Is that right?

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You kind of go, wait, how did that happen?

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And then you realise it happened because they wanted to keep Mark

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Lane.

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When they boxed themselves in the corner of the Cardassians in the

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Klingons or attacking Cardassia.

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So they go, well, what the hell are we going to do at Marco Lemo?

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Oh, I know, is going to take over a Klingon ship and have a one

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man crusade against the Klingons.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And all of that's great.

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You know, that's what you do when you have this huge stable of

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kind of secondary characters, with these great actors and you want

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to give them things to do.

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So you give them these sort of slightly preposterous storylines

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that don't really hold up to much scrutiny, but who cares?

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We get Marco Lemo.

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And so that's what this is doing.

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And, and like, I think there are probably people who think that, uh

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like with Kai Wynn, um, you can't actually start off as a little

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bit more of a grounded character.

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Um, Kai Winn does too as well.

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I mean, Kai wins like any number of sort of American religious

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figures that are contemporary, you know?

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And then they get turned into sort of giant space operations. you

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know, side teacher characters, which take care of the politics.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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That's terrific.

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But you do lose something, I think.

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Some of the songs you sacrifice.

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Yeah. sacrifice these sort of more grounded characters for that.

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And the thing that this episode does to its credit is it very

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clearly establishes a version of Ducart, who is genuinely likeable

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and possibly even heading towards redemption.

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And he only lasts for that opening scene.

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He's only in the cold open.

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And I think that's an incredible performance by Alemo and a great

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2 hander by the 2 actors.

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And then we have the opening credits and then suddenly we're in

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this sort of a kind of heightened fantasy world.

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We're suddenly on the set.

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We don't know how we got here because Cisco was unconscious, so

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suddenly we're in this completely different situation, and there's

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a level of unreality to it.

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And it's a situation in which this character is going to change.

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And the thing that struck me is the big pivotal scene is the scene

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between Cisco and and you can't, where Cisco gets, you can't to

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admit that his feelings towards the Bajorans are homicide.

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Genocide.

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It's a great scene.

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But there's a sense in which I can't help thinking it might have

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been better had it taken place at the trial that we were promised

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in the opening scene.

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Because what happens is it takes place in this sort of weird

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fantasy world where there's, you know, illusions and, you know

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where he's talking to imaginary people and stuff and going a bit

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crazy.

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But what we get is Cisco needling him in this very forensic way

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asking him exactly the right questions that will lead him to turn

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into the giant supervillain that he ends up peeing at the end of

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the episode.

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I love it when Cisco's, you know, going, you know, I didn't see

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what you had to put up with day after day.

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Yeah, of course, yeah.

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You had to make those choices and I'm like, oh, you're playing him

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so well.

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I mean, I get what you're saying.

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And I think that would be a more typical Star Trek episode if it

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was in a courtroom.

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It would be very the drumhead.

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But I just love the atmosphere that Renee brews up in that cave.

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I'm getting massive misery vibes, you know.

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Yes, oh, absolutely, a.k.a. golden car.

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Is it obsessed?

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She wants to get the book out.

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He just wants him to say, I'm your friend, gold Ducar.

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You know, has all he wants from Cisco. is some sort of he's such a

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low at the moment.

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He needs his bitter enemy to say I endorse you somehow.

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Yeah, that sequence at the end, right?

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I think it's one of the most incredible bits of acting you're ever

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going to see in Star Trek because either if you're going to do

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that, if you're going to write something as operatic as that, as

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an actor, you just have to go for it.

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Fuck does he go for it, right?

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You know, this stupid broken wrinkled notice, you know, like, yeah

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yeah.

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And I'm like, 0 my god, he is utterly unhinged.

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Like Jesus Christ, he snapped.

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And it's just wonderful to watch, but as well, the Phantom's

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right.

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And I, yes, it's not very Star Trek at all.

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It's Jeffrey Coons being a vicious asshole.

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It's Nanar Visitor in a series of wonderful moments, really, you

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know, sadistically needling at his anxieties and it's also, um

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what's a fellow who plays Tamar?

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Casey Biggs purring in his ear, you know.

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Of course you had to do the things you wanted to do.

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I mean, it's great telly.

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I don't care if it ain't Star Trek.

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It's why it's terrific actors just doing something really weird.

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I love that.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, no, I like that as well.

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But like I said, the artificiality of it, the TVness of it. play

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couldn't it?

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It could be on the stage this.

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Yeah, it could be, again, but what you can see it doing is moving

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the pieces into place, like retooling the character.

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And that's one of the things that I like about TV, and one of the

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things I like about Deep Soce 9 in particular, is that it sees

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what works as it goes along, and it changes and emphasises things

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and goes off in other directions as it discovers what it's about.

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It's not Babylon 5 with its five-year plan, all carefully kind of

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written out in Strazinsky's exercise book.

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It is a collaborative thing that develops as it goes along.

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And you can very much see that happening where you knock on

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another level then.

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Because it's, you know, they've seen what works and they've done

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it to such a great level.

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They've got, oh no, we've done this too well. everyone likes him

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too much.

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Jesus, of course correction.

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And I think as magnificent as Markelemo is this.

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I really do think he gives a stunning performance in this.

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It's mad and it is occasionally over the top and it's quite scary

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at times as well.

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The bit where he picks up the pipe and goes, you've been doing a

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bit of repair work and then starts smashing the life out of Avery

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Brooks.

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I mean, he can be pretty scary too.

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I think Avery Brooks is wise that until that last scene, he

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doesn't try and match a Lamo's energy, because he's never going to

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best him.

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So his restraint in this episode, you know, as he's trying to get

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the thing working and find various ways of escaping and needling

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that him, I think it shows a very clever side of Cisco in this

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episode.

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I think they both come out of this really well.

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Yeah, I think it's very generous of Avery, and you can see that

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having Renee do this episode is the right choice as well because

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it is just 2 men in a room talking and he's very good at that

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stuff.

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Remember?

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It's on the back of their enormous argument in Far Beyond the

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Stars, which was just a huge few episodes.

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Oh, is that a few episodes to come?

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I can't remember now.

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I don't know.

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This was the point where Brooks and Renault Aubergenois were in

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sort of like creative disaccord, but in that happening, what came

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to the screen was just incredible.

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You get like scenes you get in here, but you also get scenes like

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the ones between him and Pabst in Far Beyond the Stars, you know

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just incredible moments of Star Trek.

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So it's like I said about Kate and Jerry, you know, sometimes this

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discord can hit the screen in really interesting ways.

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And they're both passionate about it.

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They both want to do good work.

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That's why it's good work, you know?

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I mean, Jesus, do you remember what we watched last week?

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No, exactly.

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No one's passionate about that at all.

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No one cares.

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All right.

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What do you think?

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Should we go?

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Dr. Cox would be surprised.

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Let's do it.

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Okay, all right, here goes.

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Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

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Ah, the Honshu.

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Here we go.

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It's very pretty.

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It's nebula class.

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I didn't even have to look that up.

249
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I don't like this at all because I think that this, you know, you

250
00:12:46.019 --> 00:12:48.120
have to do captain's logs, okay?

251
00:12:48.179 --> 00:12:49.440
and so that's fine.

252
00:12:49.500 --> 00:12:52.500
It's part of the you know, part of the genre, part of the way the

253
00:12:52.500 --> 00:12:52.919
show works.

254
00:12:52.980 --> 00:12:56.940
But we could have worked all of this out.

255
00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:00.120
I mean, part of it is the problem that Deep Say sign is constantly

256
00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:03.659
having to explain to us what happened because it's not super fully

257
00:13:03.659 --> 00:13:06.360
serialised and you can't just nip back and watch a previous

258
00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:07.019
episode.

259
00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:09.480
If you've forgotten the way that you can now.

260
00:13:09.539 --> 00:13:13.139
I feel like it's the one concession they have to make is, all

261
00:13:13.139 --> 00:13:14.940
right, we'll tell people what's happened.

262
00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:15.240
Yes.

263
00:13:15.299 --> 00:13:19.440
It's just a little bit too rightly and a little bit too cliched, I

264
00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:19.559
think.

265
00:13:19.620 --> 00:13:23.399
I like him saying, I know, part of me wishes he was dead.

266
00:13:23.460 --> 00:13:26.460
You'd never have Picard opening an episode like that.

267
00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:28.559
I just don't think that's so great.

268
00:13:28.620 --> 00:13:32.340
So I have to say that this version of Guldukat, I think, is

269
00:13:32.340 --> 00:13:36.899
amazing, and this version of their relationship is extraordinary

270
00:13:36.899 --> 00:13:37.980
look at him.

271
00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:40.679
You see facial expressions from a lameo that you've never seen

272
00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:42.600
before and that you won't see again.

273
00:13:42.659 --> 00:13:46.440
It's a really, really restrained performance.

274
00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:52.379
I'd hate to think they were patronising me.

275
00:13:52.379 --> 00:13:53.820
That is so funny.

276
00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:57.840
That's a proper funny gag and he doesn't mug or anything.

277
00:13:57.899 --> 00:14:00.240
Oh, mental health, I think, is great.

278
00:14:00.659 --> 00:14:02.580
It's really good.

279
00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:06.419
And and so what they do is they bring him back to a place where

280
00:14:06.419 --> 00:14:12.000
he's really extraordinarily, and extraordinarily restrained, where

281
00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:14.759
it's possible to imagine some kind of redemption.

282
00:14:14.820 --> 00:14:17.159
And it is, after all, Star Trek, right?

283
00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:20.220
That is the sort of thing that Star Trek does.

284
00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:23.519
And I think, you know, given his role in the show, that would have

285
00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:26.159
been a terrible choice and they don't make that choice.

286
00:14:26.220 --> 00:14:30.059
They make him go out in a grand evil gesture at the sort of the

287
00:14:30.059 --> 00:14:30.539
end of the show.

288
00:14:30.779 --> 00:14:33.120
Surrounded by flames.

289
00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:37.019
Yeah, but he's great in this scene.

290
00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:38.759
The 2 of them are so good together.

291
00:14:38.820 --> 00:14:42.179
This was the sort of relationship that you had between the 2 of

292
00:14:42.179 --> 00:14:46.080
them in one to three, when they would do a lot of stories like the

293
00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:47.940
marquee and things like that, where they worked together.

294
00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:50.340
And, you know, there were still moments where you didn't trust

295
00:14:50.340 --> 00:14:53.820
Dukat and there were reversals and things like that, but it was

296
00:14:53.820 --> 00:14:57.000
generally quite relaxed between them.

297
00:14:57.059 --> 00:15:01.320
What's different here is how Avery plays these scenes.

298
00:15:01.379 --> 00:15:04.019
Because back then he was quite relaxed because he knew he was in a

299
00:15:04.019 --> 00:15:04.740
positional.

300
00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:08.580
Now he's a little bit restrained and a bit frightened of him as

301
00:15:08.580 --> 00:15:08.820
well.

302
00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:11.100
Like there's a reserved wavery here.

303
00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:13.440
Well bad things have happened.

304
00:15:13.500 --> 00:15:17.159
But like this conversation about Ziel is just great.

305
00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:19.080
It's so good.

306
00:15:19.139 --> 00:15:22.919
You know, even the sort of thing where he says, you know, we only

307
00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:26.940
had her for a short time and and you can't say as a short time was

308
00:15:26.940 --> 00:15:27.779
all she ever had.

309
00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:33.480
Like all of that stuff is really great when, when, when he says, oh

310
00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:38.039
you know, Dr. Cox, did Dr. Cox encourage you to say that and kind

311
00:15:38.039 --> 00:15:41.820
of, you know, Cisco's a little bit taken aback by that because

312
00:15:41.820 --> 00:15:45.000
he's being honest and and you can't realise this he's being honest

313
00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.299
and that he was being a bit of a prick and apologises and stuff.

314
00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:52.379
And now here he is thanking Cisco for looking after her.

315
00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:54.539
All of that stuff is so great.

316
00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:57.600
Like it's it's really, really properly good.

317
00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:02.580
This is great character stuff, but this is our starting and this

318
00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:06.059
this you can't, there's no sign of him after the opening credits.

319
00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:09.720
It's, uh, the thing with Ziao, that was part of the issue.

320
00:16:09.779 --> 00:16:13.379
And it was part of the reason why he was such a complex character

321
00:16:13.379 --> 00:16:17.399
is that he goes to find Ziao in indiscretion and he's going to

322
00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:20.519
murder her because it's, uh, it was an indiscretion with a

323
00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:20.940
Bajoran.

324
00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:24.240
She's half Bajoran, half Kardashian, and his family can't find out

325
00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:27.059
when his family finds out that he comes back with her.

326
00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:29.340
His wife leaves him.

327
00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:31.259
His sons never talk to him again.

328
00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:36.120
Not well, until he gets the empire. then they're back Oh, really?

329
00:16:36.179 --> 00:16:36.779
We forgive you.

330
00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:37.320
It's fine.

331
00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:42.419
But so, you know, those are all things that make you like a

332
00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:42.779
character.

333
00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:46.740
So they have boxed himself in that corner because then they have

334
00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:47.340
him come along.

335
00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:51.419
And yeah, he's taken over the station in that 6 episode arc, but

336
00:16:51.419 --> 00:16:55.500
he's trying to build bridges with Kira and create this weird sort

337
00:16:55.500 --> 00:17:00.360
of family unit with Ziaul. sort of fantasy family that he's got in

338
00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:01.860
mind and all of this stuff.

339
00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:03.720
And Alemo plays all of that stuff.

340
00:17:03.779 --> 00:17:08.400
The parent, the seducing scenes, so well, I mean, creepy, but so

341
00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:08.940
well.

342
00:17:08.940 --> 00:17:12.000
We kind of did need this episode.

343
00:17:12.420 --> 00:17:14.160
Yeah, yeah.

344
00:17:14.220 --> 00:17:18.000
And, you know, they have to find something for him to do, and I

345
00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:21.839
think making him the main antagonist in the finale is exactly the

346
00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:24.539
right choice. him and Kai win.

347
00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:26.220
You know, they're both incredible actors.

348
00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:28.920
They're both great characters with a long history of the in the

349
00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:31.680
show, but it does kind of align them a little bit.

350
00:17:32.339 --> 00:17:35.819
I think it's...

351
00:17:35.819 --> 00:17:38.640
Don't you recognise the face of your enemy?

352
00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:45.420
So the other thing which is interesting too. is that we had that

353
00:17:45.420 --> 00:17:48.839
scene, we had Marco Lemo do some hilarious kind of we're under

354
00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:51.839
attack and the ship's being bombarded acting with his hair going

355
00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:52.559
on their own stuff.

356
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:53.400
Expert at that now.

357
00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:57.359
Yeah, but it doesn't actually, that isn't what the episode's about

358
00:17:57.359 --> 00:17:57.720
at all.

359
00:17:57.779 --> 00:17:58.740
Do you know what I mean?

360
00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:00.059
This is like the framing device.

361
00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:01.079
This is how we get there.

362
00:18:01.140 --> 00:18:06.180
And then we're going to go into the B plot, which is is needed, I

363
00:18:06.180 --> 00:18:09.900
think, because the A plot is kind of intense.

364
00:18:10.019 --> 00:18:13.019
Technically, the whole episode could have been set in the cave

365
00:18:13.019 --> 00:18:13.200
right?

366
00:18:13.259 --> 00:18:17.160
Like, they could have done this. in the cave and go, I'll post the

367
00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:17.579
crash.

368
00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:19.079
We've woken up.

369
00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:21.359
Yes, I wondered about that too, but I think there's a very

370
00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:28.200
definite, like you, you want to start showing what you can't could

371
00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:28.619
be.

372
00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:30.000
Yeah?

373
00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:31.859
And where he might be heading.

374
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:35.039
Like you want to set up an expectation and some sense of what he's

375
00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:37.500
like, what our baseline is at this point.

376
00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:40.619
And then as he goes crazier and eviler during the episode.

377
00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:41.579
Do you know what I mean?

378
00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:42.779
So we need the starting point.

379
00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:47.160
Um, I think this is quite well done too, because now we learn that

380
00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:50.819
the Honshu, we learn that the Honshu's been exploded.

381
00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:53.880
They've all heard it already, so we don't hear.

382
00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:54.900
Do you know what I mean?

383
00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:57.180
They've heard about it, so we don't hear them hearing it for the

384
00:18:57.180 --> 00:18:57.720
1st time.

385
00:18:57.779 --> 00:19:01.980
Um, and that's quite a shock, I think, because we were just sort

386
00:19:01.980 --> 00:19:03.779
of shaking about a bit in the brig.

387
00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:05.339
You know, it just before the opening.

388
00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:07.619
See, Renee, using that wonderful set there so well.

389
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:10.980
The camera started looking at them coming out the door, then it

390
00:19:10.980 --> 00:19:14.940
swang around and went down the stairs with them behind them and

391
00:19:14.940 --> 00:19:17.339
then swang around to them all at ops.

392
00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:20.160
Now, I'm not saying that's a revolutionary piece of camera work.

393
00:19:20.220 --> 00:19:22.859
I'm just saying that's a bit more interesting than what you

394
00:19:22.859 --> 00:19:24.359
normally get in 90s trick.

395
00:19:25.140 --> 00:19:31.680
Now, there is a ticking clock in the B clock, which for once isn't

396
00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:33.480
delivering vaccines to corners.

397
00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:35.339
It may as well be though.

398
00:19:35.940 --> 00:19:42.059
Well, except I actually think that this is quite good, because

399
00:19:42.059 --> 00:19:43.920
it's quite a good moment for wharf, I think.

400
00:19:43.980 --> 00:19:47.880
But there is some pretty shitty manufactured conflict, I think, in

401
00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:49.740
the B plot, and we'll get to it.

402
00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:53.220
It's a wonderful moment when they beam in 2 survivors.

403
00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:56.519
And they both definitely go.

404
00:19:56.940 --> 00:20:00.960
But we do as well. for fuck's sake, all right?

405
00:20:01.019 --> 00:20:01.619
I am just here.

406
00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:02.339
All right?

407
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:04.440
That was one of those Nintendants.

408
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:06.359
Bless them.

409
00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:12.779
I always like scenes with Kira and Worf, because obviously Worf is

410
00:20:12.779 --> 00:20:16.140
in charge on the Defiant, technically, and Kira is in charge on

411
00:20:16.140 --> 00:20:16.559
the station.

412
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:20.339
And I just like watching Kira Boss wharp about. is great.

413
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:21.240
Yeah.

414
00:20:21.299 --> 00:20:24.299
No, but this where she's giving him the instructions.

415
00:20:24.359 --> 00:20:28.079
You know, please you can't, you don't have any more than a 2nd you

416
00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:28.920
have to be there.

417
00:20:28.980 --> 00:20:33.180
And like the stakes are like 30,000 troops in the unarmed car.

418
00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:35.640
They've got a list on the wall, you know, when they need these

419
00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:36.119
stakes.

420
00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:36.660
Right.

421
00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:37.799
Which one should we use today?

422
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:38.880
Yeah.

423
00:20:38.940 --> 00:20:43.380
But that's a good one because I think it's absolutely, you know

424
00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:49.440
justified that they abandon the, the, uh, they abandon the, the

425
00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:53.099
search for, for, for Cisco, you know, it makes it a real thing.

426
00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:55.140
It's not like the colonists that we don't care about.

427
00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:56.819
It's some troops we don't care about.

428
00:20:56.940 --> 00:21:01.559
In many ways, they're trying to do another version of Duet.

429
00:21:01.619 --> 00:21:02.640
Oh, they duet walls.

430
00:21:02.700 --> 00:21:04.380
It's air in the tile, you know?

431
00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:08.220
And it is 2 people in a confined setting and it is very intense

432
00:21:08.220 --> 00:21:11.759
and we do learn a lot about those people as a result and they are

433
00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:12.240
developed.

434
00:21:12.299 --> 00:21:16.259
So it is a very similar sort of peas.

435
00:21:16.380 --> 00:21:21.299
I think the mystery in duet is far superior, like there isn't

436
00:21:21.299 --> 00:21:23.640
really a mystery here, it's all spelt out for us.

437
00:21:23.700 --> 00:21:29.039
Um, and oh, maybe the acting is slow, even better injure, because

438
00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:32.460
it's Harris Zulin doing that incredible performance.

439
00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:38.339
But we're 6 seasons in here, this is more interesting for me

440
00:21:38.339 --> 00:21:40.079
because I know these characters.

441
00:21:40.259 --> 00:21:45.420
Yeah, I would say that both duet and progress are superior to this

442
00:21:45.420 --> 00:21:46.500
I think, as episodes.

443
00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:51.359
And I think one of the reasons is that most of what's going on

444
00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:55.740
with Ducat is weird madness nonsense.

445
00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:56.579
Do you know what I mean?

446
00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:01.680
where he's talking to kind of, you know, madness, nonsense.

447
00:22:01.740 --> 00:22:05.039
I actually think Nanara actually goes on, should have been

448
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:05.400
reading.

449
00:22:05.460 --> 00:22:08.880
I love it when she starts cackling like a witch.

450
00:22:08.940 --> 00:22:10.980
Yeah that's so bad.

451
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:19.319
We're going to go back to DS9 and have a good long laugh and

452
00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:20.640
you're expanded.

453
00:22:20.700 --> 00:22:21.240
Yeah.

454
00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:21.960
Yeah.

455
00:22:22.019 --> 00:22:26.279
Well, no, because you know that because he's had loins where he's

456
00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:29.039
gone, yeah, does anyone miss me on Deep Space 9?

457
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:29.940
And they're like, no.

458
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:31.140
No one misses you?

459
00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:36.119
But I also think too, that neediness is a little bit sort of, that

460
00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:38.279
neediness undermines his character a little bit as well.

461
00:22:38.339 --> 00:22:39.359
Yeah, it should.

462
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:40.319
He's pathetic.

463
00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:45.900
It's a little boy that wants acceptance despite the fact that he's

464
00:22:45.900 --> 00:22:48.779
in charge of systematically murdering half a planet.

465
00:22:49.019 --> 00:22:51.359
But he didn't come like that.

466
00:22:51.420 --> 00:22:55.859
Like that wasn't the initial kind of, uh, you know, way he

467
00:22:55.859 --> 00:22:58.859
presents himself, I think, when the show 1st starts.

468
00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:04.319
Um, and, like, I was sort of, like, isn't his need for Kira's

469
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:07.859
approval in the, you know, when the station's occupied.

470
00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:11.400
Um, isn't it just to annoy Kira?

471
00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:14.400
Isn't it kind of, isn't that what he's doing?

472
00:23:14.460 --> 00:23:16.259
He tries to manufacture.

473
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:19.619
I could make things very happy for you here, Kira.

474
00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:22.559
You could start by doing something about your breath.

475
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:25.980
So good.

476
00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:28.019
I love their relationship.

477
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:32.039
Oh, watch Jeffrey Combs now. is so vicious in this scene.

478
00:23:32.099 --> 00:23:35.880
And of course, at this point, we don't know that he's a madness

479
00:23:35.940 --> 00:23:39.299
you know, he's an illusion. we think he's really there At the end

480
00:23:39.299 --> 00:23:41.400
of the scene, you do, because he shoots the rock, doesn't he?

481
00:23:41.460 --> 00:23:42.059
Way in Scotland.

482
00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:43.380
That's where we know.

483
00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:46.980
And so that's, I think we go to an ad break on that and the ad

484
00:23:46.980 --> 00:23:49.559
break is, 0 my god, Ducart's mad.

485
00:23:49.740 --> 00:23:54.900
Like, I think after what he's been for, it would unhinge your mind

486
00:23:54.900 --> 00:23:55.079
right?

487
00:23:55.140 --> 00:23:57.900
If your daughter was murdered right in front of you, no?

488
00:23:57.960 --> 00:23:59.940
Yeah, but where do you...

489
00:23:59.940 --> 00:24:03.119
If you had an ego, the size of his and your entire empire was

490
00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:06.839
dragged away from you, you were on the cusp of ruling the alpha

491
00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:09.599
quadrant and now you're a pathetic war criminal.

492
00:24:09.660 --> 00:24:11.700
I think it would unhinge your mind.

493
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:16.980
And you would see illusions of people that you know representing

494
00:24:16.980 --> 00:24:18.119
different parts of your personality.

495
00:24:18.180 --> 00:24:20.339
Well, the sakes of this episode, yes.

496
00:24:20.819 --> 00:24:22.440
That's right.

497
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:23.819
That's what I mean.

498
00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:24.420
Do you know what I mean?

499
00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:26.039
Like there's a level of unreality there.

500
00:24:26.099 --> 00:24:27.839
There's a level of TV showness.

501
00:24:27.900 --> 00:24:32.160
We're setting up a TV show in order to examine a level of TV

502
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:34.799
showness in a TV show, though.

503
00:24:34.859 --> 00:24:36.240
No, no, no, exactly, exactly.

504
00:24:36.359 --> 00:24:39.900
But one of the fun things that Star Trek sometimes does is it does

505
00:24:39.900 --> 00:24:43.859
that by we're trapped in the holiday and it's been imprinted on

506
00:24:43.859 --> 00:24:47.279
his personality or something, you know, facets, you know, like

507
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:50.279
whatever, we do, you know, we do a space thing, that makes it

508
00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:50.579
happen.

509
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:54.180
Here we do, like I said, before a daytime soap opera thing, where

510
00:24:54.180 --> 00:24:57.660
we just have the other main characters, you know, just in the room

511
00:24:57.660 --> 00:24:58.619
talking to me.

512
00:24:58.619 --> 00:25:01.799
Dance Night is best when it's a daytime soap.

513
00:25:01.859 --> 00:25:03.539
Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

514
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:04.619
I'm not complaining.

515
00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:08.579
Take this poor beggar to cut out onto the streets.

516
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:10.680
I'm sure it will teach him a bit of humility.

517
00:25:10.740 --> 00:25:13.740
Like, when Disney is the sofa is wonderful.

518
00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:16.319
I do love, though.

519
00:25:16.380 --> 00:25:19.559
I love the lines here where he goes I wonder if you still have the

520
00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:22.380
same respect for you if you saw you screaming and screaming until

521
00:25:22.380 --> 00:25:25.920
the nurses came to sedate you because it does give us a peek into

522
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:28.559
what was going on and it sounds horrific.

523
00:25:28.859 --> 00:25:30.180
Yeah.

524
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:31.200
Yeah.

525
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:34.559
But I mean, it is sort of, it's genre TV show madness.

526
00:25:34.619 --> 00:25:35.339
Do you know what I mean?

527
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:36.599
Like, it's, yeah.

528
00:25:36.660 --> 00:25:37.920
I'm good with that.

529
00:25:37.980 --> 00:25:39.359
Yeah.

530
00:25:39.420 --> 00:25:42.059
Yeah, you know, like we said, it's genre TV.

531
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:42.900
Do you know what I mean?

532
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:45.900
Like this, is he lying about the vomit?

533
00:25:45.900 --> 00:25:47.160
Because there's no vomit anywhere.

534
00:25:47.220 --> 00:25:48.720
Oh anyway, he must have cleaned it up.

535
00:25:48.779 --> 00:25:51.720
Exactly a little bout, he says.

536
00:25:51.779 --> 00:25:53.400
Yeah, yeah, that was a pretty good line.

537
00:25:53.460 --> 00:25:54.900
Why is it pretty good life?

538
00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:55.680
smiles.

539
00:25:55.740 --> 00:26:01.859
It's so disgusting I quite like that. that horrible story. this

540
00:26:01.859 --> 00:26:04.440
guy goes, yeah, let's talk about something else, apart from the 3

541
00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:06.779
people who explode.

542
00:26:07.380 --> 00:26:08.880
The emissary has spoken.

543
00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:13.440
Oh, bless him.

544
00:26:13.500 --> 00:26:17.099
So the trouble is, of course, the way Cisco is revered, and that

545
00:26:17.099 --> 00:26:19.619
is precisely how he wanted to be revered, isn't it?

546
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:20.579
Yeah, yeah.

547
00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:24.119
They couldn't appreciate everything I did for them, you know.

548
00:26:24.359 --> 00:26:29.400
I think the best speed is where he just goes in and just un

549
00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:31.440
selfconsciously is a massive supremacist.

550
00:26:31.500 --> 00:26:34.079
Like he just goes, they're inferior to us.

551
00:26:34.140 --> 00:26:38.039
And like, that's the moment, you know, and that's the important

552
00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:42.480
thing, which I don't know, and we had him say it quite as boldly

553
00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:43.319
as that before.

554
00:26:45.180 --> 00:26:46.440
No I don't think so.

555
00:26:46.500 --> 00:26:47.160
Yeah.

556
00:26:47.220 --> 00:26:50.640
You know, that it becomes a thing about just sheer racism.

557
00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:56.880
Just say militarily, culturally, culturally, they were behind us

558
00:26:56.940 --> 00:27:00.660
they're primitive We didn't choose to be the superior race.

559
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:01.740
That's right.

560
00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:05.460
That meant that we had a right and maybe a duty to go in and run

561
00:27:05.460 --> 00:27:06.539
their planet for.

562
00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:08.160
It's irredeemable that, isn't he?

563
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:09.359
Yeah, yeah.

564
00:27:09.420 --> 00:27:12.000
That's the moment, I think, where it's just like, oh, okay, we're

565
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:14.640
not coming back from here because he's not embarrassed about

566
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:14.880
that.

567
00:27:14.940 --> 00:27:17.940
That's not something that he thinks he shouldn't tell Cisco

568
00:27:17.940 --> 00:27:18.900
because it's shameful.

569
00:27:19.019 --> 00:27:22.740
He doesn't just go after the culture and the religion in that

570
00:27:22.740 --> 00:27:23.579
speech.

571
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:25.920
He goes over just their facial appearance.

572
00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:28.799
And what they look like, you know, the best, the most basest

573
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:34.559
racism you could possibly, you know, yeah. say it's it's it's an

574
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:35.400
extraordinary moment.

575
00:27:35.460 --> 00:27:38.519
I wouldn't want all Star Trek to be like that, but I'm pleased

576
00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:39.180
they went there.

577
00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:46.740
Well, I don't like this, like what the salt and pepper thing. like

578
00:27:46.740 --> 00:27:47.940
why is he being such a prick?

579
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:49.019
I don't care.

580
00:27:49.799 --> 00:27:52.079
He's trying to wind him up.

581
00:27:52.140 --> 00:27:53.640
I guess so.

582
00:27:53.819 --> 00:27:57.539
Oh, this is just, they didn't give me much of a Charles.

583
00:27:57.599 --> 00:27:59.460
They were too busy plotting my downfall.

584
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:02.700
Yeah, I wonder why.

585
00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:03.299
But again.

586
00:28:03.299 --> 00:28:04.740
Yeah, Pepper, come on.

587
00:28:04.859 --> 00:28:09.779
Also complaining that food doesn't have enough pepper, and it just

588
00:28:09.779 --> 00:28:11.279
people only do that on television, don't they?

589
00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:14.099
It just doesn't seem... pepper and moss soup, don't you?

590
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:16.140
No, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do.

591
00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:18.660
And actually, now that I think of it, I'm sure Calvin has

592
00:28:18.660 --> 00:28:20.700
complained that the soup is cooked doesn't have enough pepper in

593
00:28:20.700 --> 00:28:20.880
it.

594
00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:25.799
But it just seems, again, a bit sort of TV show dialogue.

595
00:28:25.859 --> 00:28:28.259
You know, I went to all those efforts to heal the wounds between

596
00:28:28.259 --> 00:28:30.420
Bajaw and kind of, you know.

597
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:31.980
Oh, is he talking?

598
00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:33.779
No, he's talking about now now, isn't he?

599
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:34.200
Not then.

600
00:28:34.259 --> 00:28:36.839
He's talking about the recent occupation.

601
00:28:36.900 --> 00:28:38.819
I mean, this is just, yeah, yeah, yeah.

602
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:41.339
We're talking about all these consequences.

603
00:28:41.339 --> 00:28:42.839
What happened?

604
00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:44.039
There's only a few episodes ago.

605
00:28:44.099 --> 00:28:45.299
Isn't it?

606
00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:46.920
It's 5 episodes ago.

607
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:48.059
This is episode 11.

608
00:28:48.299 --> 00:28:50.099
You know, like when does you can't leave the station?

609
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:51.359
It's episode six, isn't it?

610
00:28:51.420 --> 00:28:52.680
I think six.

611
00:28:52.740 --> 00:28:55.079
Oh, no, I suppose 7 with that 10 episode arc.

612
00:28:55.140 --> 00:28:58.259
That's the most sort of arc heavy, isn't it?

613
00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:03.240
But 6 is pretty solid in terms of, you know, a running narrative

614
00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:05.400
and discussing consequences.

615
00:29:05.460 --> 00:29:10.019
And so is this the last time we see Ducart in this season?

616
00:29:10.140 --> 00:29:13.920
No, no, you see him again, don't you?

617
00:29:13.980 --> 00:29:15.960
At the end of the season, when he kills Dax.

618
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:17.700
Oh, Keen Sacrifice of Angels.

619
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:18.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

620
00:29:18.539 --> 00:29:19.799
Tears of the Prophets.

621
00:29:19.859 --> 00:29:21.359
Tears of the prophets.

622
00:29:21.420 --> 00:29:24.299
Yes, that's true. all got very operatic titles.

623
00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:25.619
Yes, don't they?

624
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:25.920
Exactly.

625
00:29:25.980 --> 00:29:26.880
That's what we want.

626
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:27.660
Oh, no.

627
00:29:27.660 --> 00:29:30.960
He's in wrong staff, darker than Deaf and Knight as well when he's

628
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:32.220
having sex with Kira's mother.

629
00:29:32.220 --> 00:29:32.880
That's a year episode.

630
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:33.420
Back in the past.

631
00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:33.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

632
00:29:34.019 --> 00:29:34.859
It's past to go.

633
00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:36.000
He pops up.

634
00:29:36.059 --> 00:29:37.619
I mean, talk about a soap opera.

635
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:39.000
He pops up at the start of that.

636
00:29:39.059 --> 00:29:42.299
He goes, ah, I see you're buying buying lilacs.

637
00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:44.400
Is it your mother's anniversary?

638
00:29:44.460 --> 00:29:44.819
yeah.

639
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:47.400
She used to love it when I touched her hair.

640
00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:49.680
And she was like, what the hell?

641
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:52.259
Total soap.

642
00:29:52.500 --> 00:29:54.240
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

643
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:58.980
Casey Pigs, man, you'd be a great sort of gay romance figure the

644
00:29:58.980 --> 00:30:01.019
way he starts whispering to cut in this scene.

645
00:30:01.259 --> 00:30:06.000
I think that he is really great and really underappreciated

646
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:10.200
because you've got, you can't going off being, you know, insane

647
00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:14.880
possessed par Rafe Ducat in season 7 and you've essentially got

648
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:17.880
Damahu is a bit of a loser, isn't he?

649
00:30:17.940 --> 00:30:19.079
like initially.

650
00:30:19.140 --> 00:30:21.900
Um, and he, he's great.

651
00:30:22.019 --> 00:30:22.799
Do you know what I mean?

652
00:30:22.859 --> 00:30:26.279
Like, and he's a he's a terrific actor, I think.

653
00:30:26.339 --> 00:30:28.859
I think he knows he'll never, ever best.

654
00:30:28.859 --> 00:30:30.240
Nemo's lunacy.

655
00:30:30.299 --> 00:30:34.380
So we kind of underplays it, but you get very close to Damara in

656
00:30:34.380 --> 00:30:35.099
season seven.

657
00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:36.420
Yeah, yeah.

658
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:39.299
And I think for those scenes between Damar and Wayuna, great.

659
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:42.059
Like, I'm not sure that I'm missing Ducant in those scenes at

660
00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:42.299
all.

661
00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:43.980
I think you're very really good together.

662
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:46.200
Oh, winding each other up.

663
00:30:46.259 --> 00:30:48.839
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

664
00:30:48.900 --> 00:30:56.339
And when, you know, actually, you know, gets his sort of, you know

665
00:30:56.339 --> 00:30:57.480
gets his spine back.

666
00:30:57.539 --> 00:30:58.740
That's pretty good.

667
00:30:58.799 --> 00:30:59.700
The real punch, yeah.

668
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:03.059
But the way he says things like, you know, have fun in your

669
00:31:03.059 --> 00:31:04.079
meeting with the founder.

670
00:31:04.140 --> 00:31:06.779
And if not, I look forward to meeting Wayne 7.

671
00:31:10.380 --> 00:31:15.720
This stupid box with the system online and system off-line.

672
00:31:15.779 --> 00:31:16.500
It's great.

673
00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:17.460
It's right.

674
00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:19.920
That's the mobile phone.

675
00:31:19.980 --> 00:31:25.740
That's right But like, like, what's it, you open it up and it's

676
00:31:25.740 --> 00:31:29.039
got a system offline thing flashing and he's fixed it so it says

677
00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:30.180
system online on the front.

678
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:32.700
For some reason, offline and online aren't one word.

679
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:34.200
They are hyphenated.

680
00:31:34.380 --> 00:31:38.759
They're truly trying to show us visually where that box is at.

681
00:31:38.819 --> 00:31:40.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

682
00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:41.339
Yeah.

683
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:44.700
Oh, bless the lameo, look, having a conversation with a wall.

684
00:31:45.059 --> 00:31:48.539
Yeah, see, all of that sort of stuff, I think.

685
00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:52.259
Like whenever I'm encouraged to think about what Cisco can see him

686
00:31:52.259 --> 00:31:52.680
doing.

687
00:31:52.740 --> 00:31:55.380
I just sort of think that's really not very good.

688
00:31:55.440 --> 00:32:00.359
The one moment that I think is absolutely superb is at the very

689
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:04.319
end when he's in the shuttle taking off, and we look in and his

690
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:08.519
little chorus are behind him, they're going... which everything is

691
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:10.380
so, so... right over there, waiting.

692
00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:11.460
Ready, ready?

693
00:32:11.579 --> 00:32:12.299
Go with the lightning.

694
00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:14.400
And they all flash and you see that?

695
00:32:14.940 --> 00:32:16.799
It's so great.

696
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:20.519
That's just about my favourite thing about that conceit.

697
00:32:20.579 --> 00:32:23.460
My favourite bit is where I know you think she's over the top.

698
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:26.460
She didn't go far enough as far as I'm concerned, is where he's

699
00:32:26.460 --> 00:32:30.779
going, let's pretend that the major isn't even here.

700
00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:33.119
And she's next to him going...

701
00:32:33.180 --> 00:32:34.259
Yeah, that's awesome.

702
00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:40.079
That's brilliant. like, what the hell am I watching now?

703
00:32:40.140 --> 00:32:41.400
Jesus Christ.

704
00:32:41.460 --> 00:32:43.140
That stuff's really good.

705
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:46.559
It would none of it play. if I didn't have these actors.

706
00:32:46.619 --> 00:32:50.700
I mean, if you did this script onto TNG, we would be in trouble.

707
00:32:50.819 --> 00:32:52.200
Oh, yeah.

708
00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:54.599
Or, you know, they would never attempt...

709
00:32:54.660 --> 00:32:56.460
Imagine him down in this case.

710
00:32:56.519 --> 00:32:57.240
Yeah, yeah.

711
00:32:57.539 --> 00:32:59.640
Jesus.

712
00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:01.259
Okay, right.

713
00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:03.000
Now, the Defiant is on the hunt.

714
00:33:03.180 --> 00:33:04.619
Yeah.

715
00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:05.400
Yeah.

716
00:33:05.460 --> 00:33:08.460
So this is a much more boring plot.

717
00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:13.380
And I think there's some weird like cuts between this and that.

718
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:17.099
So we've come back from the ad break with the B plot, and it looks

719
00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:19.079
like we're going to have a scene, but that scene never happens

720
00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:22.019
because we just go back to the A plot, and I don't know what

721
00:33:22.019 --> 00:33:22.559
happened there.

722
00:33:22.619 --> 00:33:23.579
That just seemed very odd.

723
00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:25.680
Don't you think you come back from the...

724
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:26.940
We don't go on to the ship.

725
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:28.859
We just say, okay, don't have a scene. coming.

726
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:30.720
Okay, they're coming.

727
00:33:30.779 --> 00:33:31.259
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

728
00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:35.039
I mean, I do, like, some of the cuts when it, in a minute, when he

729
00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:38.819
looks like he's got it working and then we think they're detecting

730
00:33:38.819 --> 00:33:40.980
his signal and then those people come.

731
00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:45.900
That's that's, you know, usual drama techniques, but it works.

732
00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:47.579
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine.

733
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:49.200
I think that's that's good, you know.

734
00:33:49.259 --> 00:33:52.319
I do like the fact that he's using the little tide there, just a

735
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:53.279
little fork tied.

736
00:33:53.460 --> 00:33:55.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

737
00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:56.339
It's pretty good, isn't it?

738
00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:58.799
It's a competent engineer.

739
00:33:58.859 --> 00:33:59.339
I'm sure.

740
00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:00.480
Commander Cisco.

741
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:03.180
All you need to do is stick a bit of metal in there. and you can

742
00:34:03.180 --> 00:34:03.539
fix it.

743
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:05.880
You don't require pressing any of the buttons.

744
00:34:05.940 --> 00:34:09.239
Well, we're just waiting for that misery moment, aren't we?

745
00:34:09.300 --> 00:34:11.579
Where she comes in with with the mallet.

746
00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:13.920
You've been doing a bit of repair work, have you?

747
00:34:14.820 --> 00:34:18.840
Do you know I read the book, the only Stephen King book I've ever

748
00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:22.320
read is Misery, and it's much nastier than the film.

749
00:34:22.380 --> 00:34:23.400
What does she do in the book?

750
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:28.619
Oh, the foot comes off completely and she cuts his fingers off and

751
00:34:28.619 --> 00:34:28.920
stuff.

752
00:34:28.980 --> 00:34:30.300
It's like really, really horrible.

753
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:32.820
I just remember seeing the lake in the upper direction.

754
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:34.800
I'm like, oh, no, that's enough.

755
00:34:34.860 --> 00:34:36.059
It's really...

756
00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:36.719
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

757
00:34:36.780 --> 00:34:37.440
It's full on.

758
00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:40.260
It scared the hell out of me, even though I was super familiar

759
00:34:40.260 --> 00:34:41.519
with the with the film.

760
00:34:41.579 --> 00:34:42.719
He says in this scene.

761
00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:45.300
He goes, you know, we should stay in this cave, you know, it's

762
00:34:45.300 --> 00:34:46.860
very inhospitable out there.

763
00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:47.639
We can be friends.

764
00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:51.300
Let's stay in this cave because it looks really fake out there on

765
00:34:51.300 --> 00:34:52.079
planet Hill.

766
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:55.920
It does look fairly fake in here, to be honest.

767
00:34:55.980 --> 00:34:57.840
Oh, no, as fake that.

768
00:34:57.900 --> 00:34:59.760
I mean, for God's sakes, why didn't they junk?

769
00:34:59.820 --> 00:35:00.360
That's it.

770
00:35:00.420 --> 00:35:02.219
Yeah, yeah.

771
00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:03.360
I mean, I quite like.

772
00:35:03.420 --> 00:35:04.679
I don't mind that.

773
00:35:04.739 --> 00:35:10.619
And to be honest, Star Trek now is still made in, you know, like a

774
00:35:10.619 --> 00:35:14.579
set like that, but it just has the effects wall, you know, so you

775
00:35:14.579 --> 00:35:17.760
can project things on it that look more convincing, I guess, and

776
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:20.159
more detailed rather than just the red sky.

777
00:35:20.219 --> 00:35:22.980
This reminds me of that, that scene in indiscretion where to cut

778
00:35:22.980 --> 00:35:24.599
sat down on that enormous spike.

779
00:35:24.659 --> 00:35:25.380
Do you remember?

780
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:29.039
And it gets stuck in his arse and him and Kira have a comedy

781
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:30.840
moment in the middle of...

782
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:32.460
She has to pull it out.

783
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:36.360
Oh no. very funny.

784
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:40.800
Oh, dear, he doesn't see the humour in it, but Kira does.

785
00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:44.039
Oh, what is this?

786
00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:46.800
Sitting together, just like the 2 old friends.

787
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:48.840
We're old friends that we really are.

788
00:35:48.900 --> 00:35:50.820
Come on, Ducal.

789
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:51.780
You know better than this.

790
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:54.300
Yeah, I think that stuff slightly weird.

791
00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:56.039
I mean, at least Cisco is not in his dialogue.

792
00:35:56.099 --> 00:35:57.900
You can see him considering is, okay.

793
00:35:57.960 --> 00:35:58.679
All right.

794
00:35:58.739 --> 00:36:00.780
I'm going to go along with it because he's crazy.

795
00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:01.559
What do I do?

796
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:04.800
I'm nearly out of here.

797
00:36:04.860 --> 00:36:06.000
I've got the thing going.

798
00:36:06.059 --> 00:36:07.139
I just need to keep him talking.

799
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:08.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

800
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:09.480
Yeah.

801
00:36:09.539 --> 00:36:10.440
Yeah.

802
00:36:10.500 --> 00:36:12.360
I mean, I think you're right.

803
00:36:12.420 --> 00:36:15.000
Like, he's absolutely underplaying it, and I think he's partly

804
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:18.420
underplaying it because he himself, like Brooks goes really big in

805
00:36:18.420 --> 00:36:21.420
that final big confrontation that we talked about. before.

806
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:24.480
I mean, go and watch him as doctor nowhere in Arman Bashir.

807
00:36:24.539 --> 00:36:25.380
For God's sakes.

808
00:36:25.980 --> 00:36:27.539
He can do freak only goes over time.

809
00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:28.739
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

810
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:29.099
Yeah.

811
00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:30.659
Oh, here she is.

812
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:34.139
I think you're an evil sadistic man who should have been tried as

813
00:36:34.139 --> 00:36:35.400
a war criminal years ago.

814
00:36:35.460 --> 00:36:37.619
Put up against a wall and shut.

815
00:36:37.980 --> 00:36:41.519
I think making her as well.

816
00:36:41.579 --> 00:36:48.239
Like, Waoon expresses contempt for him, doesn't he?

817
00:36:48.300 --> 00:36:52.019
And kind of represents the dominion and sort of like the

818
00:36:52.019 --> 00:36:57.000
ruthlessness and all of that sort of thing, you know, Damara

819
00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:00.179
approves of him and is very Cardassian and stuff.

820
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:04.619
And, so, you know, 2 of them kind of disapprove.

821
00:37:04.619 --> 00:37:10.019
And, Yeah, like I, I think she's been great.

822
00:37:10.019 --> 00:37:15.239
Many seasons trying to impress Kira are not succeeding.

823
00:37:15.300 --> 00:37:19.260
So I can imagine one of his anxieties would be that she would not

824
00:37:19.260 --> 00:37:22.679
take him seriously in any way, shape or form.

825
00:37:22.739 --> 00:37:25.980
It's just how nasty she is, you know?

826
00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:27.059
I love this side of us.

827
00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:27.719
Yeah.

828
00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:32.579
I think that, that, you know, the big important moment is that

829
00:37:32.579 --> 00:37:36.599
conversation where DuCart shows his real colours even to himself

830
00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:39.480
where he's suddenly realises what he was thinking all along

831
00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:43.260
because he didn't know that. swings around though, but they're all

832
00:37:43.260 --> 00:37:45.360
there and they just get one line apiece.

833
00:37:45.420 --> 00:37:47.760
I think, and that last one, that's well done as well, I think.

834
00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:50.099
I mean, I think this is quite well directed.

835
00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:52.739
This stuff is when done badly.

836
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:54.780
This stuff can be very pony.

837
00:37:54.840 --> 00:37:55.739
Yeah.

838
00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:56.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

839
00:37:57.000 --> 00:37:58.440
Yeah, I think that's right.

840
00:37:58.500 --> 00:38:00.780
I think you've got really good actors and you've got the perfect

841
00:38:00.780 --> 00:38:01.559
director for it.

842
00:38:02.699 --> 00:38:09.599
But it kind of hides the fact that most of this, do you know what

843
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:09.900
I mean?

844
00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:13.980
Like, it's a bit of a crunch, I think, is what I'm saying, that

845
00:38:13.980 --> 00:38:18.239
progress doesn't need something like that, and neither does Walt

846
00:38:18.239 --> 00:38:18.900
you know.

847
00:38:18.900 --> 00:38:22.920
Remember, we've gotten to the stage now where we feel like we need

848
00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:27.000
to present something a bit more entertaining than 2 people in a

849
00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:27.539
home.

850
00:38:27.539 --> 00:38:31.739
Yeah, we've already seen progress in Walt, not Walt's progress, and

851
00:38:31.739 --> 00:38:32.460
what's the other one?

852
00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:33.659
Duets, rather.

853
00:38:33.719 --> 00:38:36.659
Yeah, progress a duet, which I think are both great, but we have

854
00:38:36.659 --> 00:38:37.260
had them.

855
00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:38.280
Do you know what I mean?

856
00:38:38.340 --> 00:38:41.940
This is a bit more fun and a bit more silly and a bit more kind of

857
00:38:41.940 --> 00:38:42.480
over the time.

858
00:38:42.539 --> 00:38:45.420
They did the one with Garak and Bashir.

859
00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:46.619
That was a two-hander as well.

860
00:38:46.679 --> 00:38:47.699
The wire.

861
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:52.199
They do the one we've got, Bashir and O'Brien down on the planet

862
00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:53.400
with the Gemadar.

863
00:38:53.460 --> 00:38:54.840
That's in season four.

864
00:38:54.900 --> 00:38:57.780
So they do do these 2 handers every now and again.

865
00:38:57.840 --> 00:38:58.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

866
00:38:58.739 --> 00:39:02.099
They're just always great for just getting to the nub of those

867
00:39:02.099 --> 00:39:03.539
characters, I think.

868
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:04.860
I think two.

869
00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:08.760
I think, I think too, that Voyager's counterpoint takes its name

870
00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:12.300
from Waltz and Duet.

871
00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:13.260
Do you know what I mean?

872
00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:14.579
That it's another musical thing.

873
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:15.239
Yeah, this.

874
00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:18.599
Come on, settle down and uh...

875
00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:19.559
Pick up, pick up.

876
00:39:19.619 --> 00:39:23.699
No, that's that's just that's embarrassing.

877
00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:26.460
Go for it, girl.

878
00:39:26.519 --> 00:39:26.880
Go on.

879
00:39:26.940 --> 00:39:29.940
You were a soldier and you have to carry out your orders.

880
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:32.519
He doesn't believe that lame excuse anymore than you do.

881
00:39:32.579 --> 00:39:34.920
Do you know what I really like?

882
00:39:34.980 --> 00:39:38.699
He's cut back to Avery, who is kind of looking puzzled.

883
00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:41.159
And then you said thinking, well, What did you want to see

884
00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:41.519
especially?

885
00:39:41.579 --> 00:39:45.059
Oh, there it is. fun.

886
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:46.619
She won't leave well enough alone.

887
00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:50.340
She's always trying to upset me.

888
00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:53.519
I mean, he's pathetic.

889
00:39:53.639 --> 00:39:55.559
But he kind of is pathetic.

890
00:39:56.760 --> 00:39:59.340
But that is so much fun.

891
00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:02.039
Like if she's leaning against his shoulder and everything.

892
00:40:02.099 --> 00:40:03.719
It's really awesome.

893
00:40:03.780 --> 00:40:04.980
Stocked with her message.

894
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:09.059
Yeah, that's that's pretty good. no reason to count upset, no, just

895
00:40:09.059 --> 00:40:11.099
2 old soldiers talking around the campfire.

896
00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:14.579
Oh boy.

897
00:40:15.780 --> 00:40:20.039
Yeah, it just, I think maybe, maybe I make concessions because

898
00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:21.360
it's just these characters.

899
00:40:21.420 --> 00:40:22.380
I just find them so rich.

900
00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:23.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

901
00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:25.019
No, I don't think it's bad.

902
00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:25.860
Do you know what I mean?

903
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:26.820
I don't think it's bad.

904
00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:31.739
But I do think it is, it's very TV-ish and very TV drama and

905
00:40:31.739 --> 00:40:31.980
stuff.

906
00:40:31.980 --> 00:40:35.699
And, you know, there's a version of this where it is the trial or

907
00:40:35.699 --> 00:40:38.579
there's a version of this where they try and write this stuff

908
00:40:38.579 --> 00:40:40.860
without going quite so big.

909
00:40:40.980 --> 00:40:43.079
And maybe that's much less fun.

910
00:40:43.139 --> 00:40:46.260
You know, now he's fighting, firing the phaser everywhere.

911
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:49.500
I hear is laughing from every crevice of that cage.

912
00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:50.880
Oh my god.

913
00:40:50.940 --> 00:40:53.880
In fact, I did, I thought the direction that was really great

914
00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:55.739
because suddenly the laugh is just everywhere.

915
00:40:55.800 --> 00:40:57.659
The sound event is everywhere.

916
00:40:57.719 --> 00:41:00.539
And so now we get these 2 boring people.

917
00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:03.420
It's just an incident, a lieutenant that we don't care about, have

918
00:41:03.420 --> 00:41:06.719
been beamed up and we thought for a 2nd that this was going to end

919
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:14.159
with, um, Ducart and Cisco being beamed up 16 minutes. the episode

920
00:41:14.219 --> 00:41:16.079
anywhere near the end of the episode, yeah.

921
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:18.840
See, this is great.

922
00:41:18.900 --> 00:41:22.440
We've had that very sort of silly and intense moment and now he

923
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:23.099
realises.

924
00:41:24.059 --> 00:41:25.860
What's going on with that fork down there?

925
00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:27.900
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

926
00:41:27.960 --> 00:41:29.159
That's pretty great, actually.

927
00:41:29.219 --> 00:41:30.840
I look at his place.

928
00:41:30.900 --> 00:41:32.639
He knows what's coming. straight away.

929
00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:37.739
That's what's really good about it because it is, we see the fork

930
00:41:37.739 --> 00:41:41.039
and then the camera just goes up and looks at Cisco looking

931
00:41:41.039 --> 00:41:41.639
guilty.

932
00:41:41.699 --> 00:41:44.400
Like, Cisco knows that he's seen the fork.

933
00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:46.739
I don't know what that means.

934
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:48.360
This must have been very uncomfortable, Benjamin.

935
00:41:48.420 --> 00:41:49.739
Well, because it was sitting on the floor.

936
00:41:49.739 --> 00:41:50.940
Yeah, it was under the blanket.

937
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:52.559
It was just sort of...

938
00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:54.119
Oh, okay.

939
00:41:54.179 --> 00:41:55.440
It was lying on the blanket.

940
00:41:55.500 --> 00:41:57.000
Oh, this is a bit on the nose.

941
00:41:57.059 --> 00:41:59.639
Why would you need a small thin piece of metal?

942
00:41:59.699 --> 00:42:01.079
Thin piece of...

943
00:42:01.139 --> 00:42:05.159
Wait. repair work, have you on the side?

944
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:12.300
But this all leading up to the pit that we want where he finally

945
00:42:12.300 --> 00:42:13.320
loses his shit.

946
00:42:13.380 --> 00:42:14.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

947
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:21.119
And actually, Avery plays I've just been beaten up really well as

948
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:21.420
well.

949
00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:27.300
He looks cowed and bloody and yeah, it's a great bit of acting.

950
00:42:27.539 --> 00:42:31.380
Oh, they almost picked up the signal then.

951
00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:34.079
Yes, yes, suddenly it goes off.

952
00:42:34.139 --> 00:42:36.539
That's very TV, that, isn't it?

953
00:42:36.599 --> 00:42:38.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

954
00:42:38.519 --> 00:42:39.480
Yeah, that's great.

955
00:42:39.900 --> 00:42:41.519
Oh, God.

956
00:42:41.579 --> 00:42:43.860
Yeah, they never find misery.

957
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:44.699
Here we go.

958
00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:51.420
I thought we'd delivered a level of trust between us.

959
00:42:51.539 --> 00:42:54.420
I'm literally disabled in this cave and can't go.

960
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:55.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

961
00:42:55.739 --> 00:42:56.159
Yeah.

962
00:42:56.219 --> 00:42:58.079
It's so good. so much fun.

963
00:42:58.139 --> 00:42:58.980
Oh my word.

964
00:43:00.179 --> 00:43:04.260
Yep, out to the out to the ad break, so we don't have to say that

965
00:43:04.260 --> 00:43:04.559
happening.

966
00:43:04.619 --> 00:43:05.280
I might have done.

967
00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:07.619
You remember that shot we had in that great episode where the

968
00:43:07.619 --> 00:43:10.559
Gemadal punched straight at the camera when they were punching

969
00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:11.159
Ducat?

970
00:43:11.219 --> 00:43:13.860
We should have had it from Cisco's point of view there.

971
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:15.300
Ah, the pipe coming down.

972
00:43:15.539 --> 00:43:18.300
Now, this is a scene that I don't like.

973
00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:24.119
I think this is just absolute bullshit and, and, um, and Wharf is

974
00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:24.480
right.

975
00:43:24.539 --> 00:43:27.599
Wharf is right, and so is Dax.

976
00:43:27.659 --> 00:43:29.340
Is that any ever right on DS9?

977
00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:29.880
you noticed?

978
00:43:29.940 --> 00:43:31.260
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

979
00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:31.559
Yeah.

980
00:43:31.619 --> 00:43:33.840
I think it's a good moment for wharf.

981
00:43:33.900 --> 00:43:35.519
This thing, I couldn't understand a word.

982
00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:36.239
Kira said.

983
00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:40.619
And it's just like, fucking grow up with you. 30,000 people. is

984
00:43:40.619 --> 00:43:40.980
his wife?

985
00:43:41.039 --> 00:43:45.119
And Dank was just saying, she's saying, yeah, just about what we

986
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:45.360
think.

987
00:43:45.420 --> 00:43:46.260
It's down to him.

988
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:50.519
But she also says, I could understand.

989
00:43:50.579 --> 00:43:53.219
I could understand what she was saying.

990
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:55.260
She isn't going along with the lie at all.

991
00:43:55.320 --> 00:43:58.559
And it like, and it's just like, come on, really, grow up.

992
00:43:58.619 --> 00:44:02.400
It's 30,000 people who are unprotected and he's going, you will

993
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:05.519
forgive me if I think that saving Captain Cisco's life is more

994
00:44:05.519 --> 00:44:06.539
important than your honour.

995
00:44:06.599 --> 00:44:10.860
And it's just like, it's like you're going to disobey Kira when

996
00:44:10.860 --> 00:44:13.679
she gives you a command to protect some people.

997
00:44:13.739 --> 00:44:14.760
Do you know what I mean?

998
00:44:14.820 --> 00:44:17.099
Like, it's not more the problem.

999
00:44:17.159 --> 00:44:18.300
You know what the problem is?

1000
00:44:18.360 --> 00:44:21.480
I don't Well, I mean, Bashir is the problem, but it's the writers

1001
00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:25.679
because they genuinely think these captains are like, that's why

1002
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:27.780
they turn him into a god in the last episode.

1003
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:31.079
It's because they they think they're these great status symbols

1004
00:44:31.079 --> 00:44:32.400
you know, of the show.

1005
00:44:32.460 --> 00:44:34.980
Whereas come on, 30,000 people.

1006
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:36.719
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1007
00:44:36.780 --> 00:44:37.199
That's right.

1008
00:44:37.260 --> 00:44:38.519
I mean, it would just be absurd.

1009
00:44:38.579 --> 00:44:39.239
Do you know what I mean?

1010
00:44:39.300 --> 00:44:39.900
would you do that?

1011
00:44:39.960 --> 00:44:41.579
And everyone would say, yes, you're right.

1012
00:44:41.639 --> 00:44:42.179
It's terrible.

1013
00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:44.280
We have to say goodbye to Cisco, but we can't.

1014
00:44:44.280 --> 00:44:46.619
I could say this line, Nathan, to you about my opinions on this

1015
00:44:46.619 --> 00:44:47.099
podcast.

1016
00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:48.840
It always comes back to that, doesn't it?

1017
00:44:48.900 --> 00:44:50.219
My crimes.

1018
00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:52.679
I'm such a monster, such an evil man.

1019
00:44:54.179 --> 00:44:57.119
Behold, Nathan Bottomley.

1020
00:44:57.179 --> 00:44:58.500
Supreme arbiter.

1021
00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:01.980
A man, such high moral calibre.

1022
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:05.579
Yeah, that sort of shits me a little bit, I have to say

1023
00:45:05.579 --> 00:45:06.719
brilliantly, though.

1024
00:45:06.780 --> 00:45:07.440
Yeah?

1025
00:45:07.500 --> 00:45:09.719
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1026
00:45:09.780 --> 00:45:10.199
Yeah.

1027
00:45:10.260 --> 00:45:15.179
But this, like where it's just Cesco going, what the fuck are you

1028
00:45:15.179 --> 00:45:15.480
doing?

1029
00:45:15.539 --> 00:45:16.800
What is going on here?

1030
00:45:16.860 --> 00:45:17.820
What do you want?

1031
00:45:17.940 --> 00:45:20.760
Finally, you know, his help out.

1032
00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:25.559
You just go pull out that gun and shoot me because I am never

1033
00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:28.139
going to give you the endorsement that you want, all right?

1034
00:45:28.260 --> 00:45:28.920
That's it.

1035
00:45:28.980 --> 00:45:29.340
Here we go.

1036
00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:31.320
Yeah, me and the truth.

1037
00:45:31.380 --> 00:45:32.099
Here we go.

1038
00:45:32.219 --> 00:45:34.739
So we have our trial scene now.

1039
00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:35.699
It's technically a trial.

1040
00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:36.420
Exactly.

1041
00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:37.320
It's the trial.

1042
00:45:37.380 --> 00:45:39.059
No, he's going on about evidence and stuff.

1043
00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:40.260
He's cross-examining him.

1044
00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:44.039
He's doing what we were told would happen in the cold open, you

1045
00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:46.320
know, in a proper legal thing.

1046
00:45:46.380 --> 00:45:47.940
So we end up with the trial anyway.

1047
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:49.800
Cisco's lying to do for air.

1048
00:45:49.860 --> 00:45:50.940
All right, let's do it.

1049
00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:52.079
He goes.

1050
00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:53.940
Yeah, yeah. really good, isn't it?

1051
00:45:54.059 --> 00:45:55.860
It's very intense.

1052
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:59.280
I mean the rehearsals must have been hilarious.

1053
00:45:59.340 --> 00:46:01.500
Yeah, amazing.

1054
00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:03.840
But these true or false, true or false?

1055
00:46:03.900 --> 00:46:06.420
See, it's questioning, it's absolutely forensic questioning.

1056
00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:08.340
Just like a TV courtroom.

1057
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:09.420
False.

1058
00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:12.059
I tried to save lives during my administration.

1059
00:46:13.320 --> 00:46:15.000
Yes, yeah.

1060
00:46:15.059 --> 00:46:17.280
He's not responsible for everything that happened.

1061
00:46:17.340 --> 00:46:20.880
He was the prefect, but he's not responsible. quick, this dialogue

1062
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:21.780
as well, it's back.

1063
00:46:21.780 --> 00:46:23.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so quick.

1064
00:46:23.099 --> 00:46:26.219
I mean I just think you have to be good actors to get this right.

1065
00:46:26.519 --> 00:46:27.960
Yeah.

1066
00:46:28.019 --> 00:46:29.760
Oh, but it's also Ronty Moore.

1067
00:46:29.820 --> 00:46:30.480
Do you know what I mean?

1068
00:46:30.539 --> 00:46:33.480
Like who writes the best dialogue for Deep Sace 9, I think.

1069
00:46:33.780 --> 00:46:36.960
So now, he's saying things that he has said before.

1070
00:46:37.019 --> 00:46:39.300
Central Trauma wanted that situation rectified.

1071
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:40.500
They didn't care how it was done.

1072
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:44.579
I wanted to do it with a softer hand and then in comes Damar.

1073
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:47.099
It was a noble, if misguided vision.

1074
00:46:47.159 --> 00:46:48.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1075
00:46:49.019 --> 00:46:49.500
That's great.

1076
00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:52.380
Even that is a little bit of a sort of thing.

1077
00:46:52.440 --> 00:46:55.260
It's like, why is he calling it a misguided vision?

1078
00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:56.219
Do you know what I mean?

1079
00:46:56.280 --> 00:46:58.619
Because it didn't turn out or because he doesn't really believe

1080
00:46:58.619 --> 00:46:58.739
it?

1081
00:46:58.860 --> 00:47:00.239
He knows himself.

1082
00:47:00.780 --> 00:47:03.239
I don't think he does.

1083
00:47:03.300 --> 00:47:07.440
I think this is him discovering it. and accepting it.

1084
00:47:07.500 --> 00:47:11.039
And I think the really great thing that the show does is it makes

1085
00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:17.820
Cisco make him realise what he has been like all along.

1086
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:21.780
And then he goes off and he's like the villain. you know, Cisco

1087
00:47:21.780 --> 00:47:25.019
creates this version of Ducant, which I think is such a great

1088
00:47:25.019 --> 00:47:25.559
show.

1089
00:47:25.619 --> 00:47:28.920
The great line that Cisco gets is when he smiles and goes, you

1090
00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:30.840
hated them for it, didn't you?

1091
00:47:30.900 --> 00:47:35.880
Yeah, yeah, exactly. clinch. the match, isn't it?

1092
00:47:35.940 --> 00:47:36.599
Yeah, exactly.

1093
00:47:36.659 --> 00:47:37.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1094
00:47:37.739 --> 00:47:40.139
He knows that it's going where he wants it to go.

1095
00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:41.039
Exactly.

1096
00:47:41.340 --> 00:47:46.500
And oh, and this evidence, we have, or we would go on to see

1097
00:47:46.500 --> 00:47:50.340
because we see the bombing attempt of him on the station in

1098
00:47:50.340 --> 00:47:52.380
Wrongstarker than Death and Knight.

1099
00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:53.760
Oh, okay, that's coming.

1100
00:47:53.820 --> 00:47:57.059
So again, that's them going, well, we mentioned that.

1101
00:47:57.119 --> 00:47:57.780
Why don't we put it in?

1102
00:47:57.840 --> 00:47:58.860
Let's do it.

1103
00:47:58.920 --> 00:47:59.639
We can put that in.

1104
00:47:59.699 --> 00:48:01.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah. listen to him.

1105
00:48:01.380 --> 00:48:03.179
That's justice, not malevolence.

1106
00:48:03.239 --> 00:48:04.619
Yeah, a counter on.

1107
00:48:04.679 --> 00:48:07.860
I just murdered 50 people for 50 people.

1108
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:08.519
That's fair.

1109
00:48:08.579 --> 00:48:09.900
No, 200 people.

1110
00:48:09.960 --> 00:48:11.519
It's even bigger.

1111
00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:12.239
It's much better.

1112
00:48:12.300 --> 00:48:13.739
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1113
00:48:13.800 --> 00:48:14.219
Okay.

1114
00:48:14.219 --> 00:48:17.400
Well, I'm sure those 200 people didn't mind being collateral

1115
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:18.900
damage in the scales.

1116
00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:19.860
Yeah, that's right.

1117
00:48:22.380 --> 00:48:26.280
How did they thank me for all of these things?

1118
00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:28.800
I'm delusional.

1119
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:30.780
Yeah.

1120
00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:32.460
God's sakes.

1121
00:48:32.519 --> 00:48:37.019
That scene where they're all just behind him where, I don't know

1122
00:48:37.019 --> 00:48:38.880
where she has to lie sexily on that thing.

1123
00:48:38.940 --> 00:48:42.840
I mean, I don't think she can lie any other way, is Nanal.

1124
00:48:42.900 --> 00:48:43.860
No, no, no, no.

1125
00:48:43.860 --> 00:48:45.239
The others are standing there.

1126
00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:48.300
Wait, wait, wait, wait.

1127
00:48:48.360 --> 00:48:50.880
Yeah, yeah, he's just listening at the moment.

1128
00:48:50.940 --> 00:48:54.840
Dominion would have killed every man, woman, and child on Beijon

1129
00:48:54.840 --> 00:48:55.320
long ago.

1130
00:48:55.380 --> 00:48:56.820
It's great, isn't it?

1131
00:48:56.880 --> 00:49:00.000
Without even breaking, like without even turning around.

1132
00:49:00.059 --> 00:49:02.340
I hope you're listening to all this.

1133
00:49:03.659 --> 00:49:05.519
That's great.

1134
00:49:05.639 --> 00:49:08.639
And his line as well is really good, isn't it?

1135
00:49:08.760 --> 00:49:10.619
Just like, 0 yeah, no, I'm listening.

1136
00:49:10.679 --> 00:49:11.280
You're crazy.

1137
00:49:11.340 --> 00:49:14.880
Oh my god, this is even better commentating on it than it was

1138
00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:15.300
watching it.

1139
00:49:18.300 --> 00:49:22.559
Why didn't they appreciate this rare opportunity you were offering

1140
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:22.800
them?

1141
00:49:22.860 --> 00:49:24.539
Oh, Cisco.

1142
00:49:24.659 --> 00:49:26.699
No, but that's great.

1143
00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:29.099
And of course, he comes up with the wrong answer.

1144
00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:30.420
It's because they're inferior.

1145
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:31.440
Do you know what I mean?

1146
00:49:31.500 --> 00:49:34.980
He doesn't go, well, because it was their home and we came along.

1147
00:49:35.039 --> 00:49:35.880
Do you know what I mean?

1148
00:49:35.940 --> 00:49:37.679
And start nicking all their stuff and putting them to work.

1149
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:39.539
I mean, it's overstated, yeah?

1150
00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:43.019
But I genuinely think this is our problem today, right?

1151
00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:44.940
This is what people think about people.

1152
00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:47.099
They are inferior people.

1153
00:49:47.159 --> 00:49:48.360
Yeah, 0 yeah.

1154
00:49:48.420 --> 00:49:50.760
No, that that sort of thing, this sudden.

1155
00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:51.719
Oh, I see.

1156
00:49:51.780 --> 00:49:53.099
It's supremacy now.

1157
00:49:53.159 --> 00:49:56.880
Like it's just sheer racism at this point and that's the problem.

1158
00:49:56.940 --> 00:50:00.000
That's the underlying problem, is that he just thinks they're

1159
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:03.119
inferior because they differ from him in certain metrics.

1160
00:50:03.179 --> 00:50:03.900
Do you know what I mean?

1161
00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:04.980
Or whatever.

1162
00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:09.539
Um, and so it's just pure, he we're the superior race.

1163
00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:13.019
We didn't choose it. but it was our right and our.

1164
00:50:13.079 --> 00:50:14.039
It would have been much easier.

1165
00:50:14.099 --> 00:50:17.519
They just accepted their role as the inferior race.

1166
00:50:17.579 --> 00:50:21.840
And so his inability to empathise, his inability to see anything

1167
00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:26.639
from their point of view, and his just this weird complacency that

1168
00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:29.880
he's better than them and so he can do what he likes to them.

1169
00:50:29.940 --> 00:50:31.019
Do you know what I mean?

1170
00:50:31.079 --> 00:50:33.780
And his absolute lack of shame, saying that.

1171
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:36.780
He doesn't think that that's something that's embarrassing to

1172
00:50:36.780 --> 00:50:37.139
that.

1173
00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:41.340
That they're fighting back is pride rather than just injustice.

1174
00:50:41.400 --> 00:50:42.539
They're being stubborn.

1175
00:50:42.659 --> 00:50:46.019
Yeah, that's right. fucking how he really thinks he is the parent

1176
00:50:46.019 --> 00:50:47.639
and they are the children, doesn't he?

1177
00:50:47.699 --> 00:50:49.079
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1178
00:50:49.139 --> 00:50:49.980
Jesus.

1179
00:50:49.980 --> 00:50:52.139
Yeah, and that was always, do you know what I mean?

1180
00:50:52.199 --> 00:50:53.340
Like, that's the other thing, too.

1181
00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:55.500
That was always kind of there, wasn't it?

1182
00:50:55.559 --> 00:51:00.360
Because this was the occupation, you know, that the Bajor was

1183
00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:04.380
someplace that had been occupied by a foreign power, and then that

1184
00:51:04.380 --> 00:51:05.099
power left.

1185
00:51:05.219 --> 00:51:06.059
Here we go, Nathan.

1186
00:51:06.119 --> 00:51:10.019
Yeah, superstitions in their cries for sympathy.

1187
00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:12.119
Treachery.

1188
00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:15.599
And their lies, their smug superiority and stiff necked

1189
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:16.559
obstinacy.

1190
00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:20.639
Oh, this is the clincher. their broken wrinkled noses.

1191
00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:23.639
Stupid latex noses.

1192
00:51:23.699 --> 00:51:26.699
Oh, no, this is the clincher.

1193
00:51:26.760 --> 00:51:28.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1194
00:51:28.019 --> 00:51:32.099
I should have turned their planet into a graveyard, but like the

1195
00:51:32.099 --> 00:51:34.320
galaxy has never seen.

1196
00:51:34.380 --> 00:51:38.039
So, yeah.

1197
00:51:38.039 --> 00:51:38.460
I love you.

1198
00:51:38.940 --> 00:51:41.219
Sorry, not to do more.

1199
00:51:41.340 --> 00:51:42.059
I just love him more.

1200
00:51:42.659 --> 00:51:45.239
I mean, if you want a villain, right?

1201
00:51:45.300 --> 00:51:46.139
You want lies like that.

1202
00:51:46.559 --> 00:51:49.139
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

1203
00:51:50.519 --> 00:51:52.679
Fucking bananas.

1204
00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:54.599
Oh boy.

1205
00:51:54.659 --> 00:51:59.039
I mean, the best thing they ever could have done. was to put him

1206
00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:03.420
and win together in some twisted romance.

1207
00:52:03.420 --> 00:52:04.739
People really don't like that.

1208
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:05.880
I'm like, are you mad?

1209
00:52:05.940 --> 00:52:06.960
No.

1210
00:52:07.019 --> 00:52:10.019
But I think it is what I identified before, that you had

1211
00:52:10.019 --> 00:52:12.539
characters that were a little bit more subtle and a little bit

1212
00:52:12.539 --> 00:52:16.500
more grounded, that had real world analogues, but they become just

1213
00:52:16.500 --> 00:52:19.199
kind of operatic space opera nonsense people.

1214
00:52:19.260 --> 00:52:20.460
And we love those.

1215
00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:21.360
Do you know what I mean?

1216
00:52:21.420 --> 00:52:22.440
Like, that's not a bad thing.

1217
00:52:22.500 --> 00:52:24.119
And we certainly end up in a good place.

1218
00:52:24.179 --> 00:52:27.300
But I certainly understand the people who feel that something's

1219
00:52:27.300 --> 00:52:30.420
been lost in that. scenes where they're in bed together.

1220
00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:31.800
I mean, it's just repulsive.

1221
00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:36.239
Now, Avery, we've got to Scott the fans going.

1222
00:52:36.239 --> 00:52:37.980
We've got a bit of smoke coming your way, all right?

1223
00:52:38.039 --> 00:52:38.820
and some debris.

1224
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:39.840
Please try.

1225
00:52:39.960 --> 00:52:43.559
Look, they're trying to obscure the backdrop as much as possible.

1226
00:52:43.619 --> 00:52:45.179
I know, I know, I know.

1227
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:48.960
I mean, this is quite a vicious fight as well, isn't it?

1228
00:52:49.019 --> 00:52:51.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1229
00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:55.739
It's a, you know that things are going bad when his hair comes, the

1230
00:52:55.739 --> 00:52:57.780
stupid Cardassian hair starts.

1231
00:52:57.840 --> 00:52:59.219
It's like Janeway's hair.

1232
00:52:59.340 --> 00:53:00.059
Do you know what I mean?

1233
00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:03.659
You can tell how serious it is from how disarrayed the hair is.

1234
00:53:03.719 --> 00:53:08.760
Lameo and Brooks would fight so aggressively together in what you

1235
00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:09.480
leave behind.

1236
00:53:09.539 --> 00:53:11.519
He literally breaks a lame o's nose.

1237
00:53:11.519 --> 00:53:13.679
And he ended up in the hospital.

1238
00:53:13.739 --> 00:53:15.239
Far out.

1239
00:53:15.300 --> 00:53:17.940
This is very skin of evil, isn't this?

1240
00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:19.739
I mean, it's the same set.

1241
00:53:19.800 --> 00:53:20.820
Look at the backdrop.

1242
00:53:20.880 --> 00:53:22.679
I know, I know, I know.

1243
00:53:22.739 --> 00:53:25.619
Renee's like, really, you could have given me any depth at all.

1244
00:53:27.900 --> 00:53:30.420
Because that affects war already yet?

1245
00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:31.079
No, all right.

1246
00:53:31.139 --> 00:53:31.980
We'll go for it.

1247
00:53:32.039 --> 00:53:33.420
We'll be ready for another 30 years.

1248
00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:37.139
Now, now is truly, you know, I've got unfinished business on

1249
00:53:37.139 --> 00:53:38.099
Beijor.

1250
00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:40.139
Now we're promising portents of doom, aren't we?

1251
00:53:40.199 --> 00:53:41.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1252
00:53:41.099 --> 00:53:41.880
No, this is it.

1253
00:53:41.940 --> 00:53:46.019
This is a super villain origin story where Cisco creates the

1254
00:53:46.019 --> 00:53:47.460
villain for the end of the show.

1255
00:53:47.519 --> 00:53:48.179
It's wonderful.

1256
00:53:48.239 --> 00:53:52.500
Lloyd, from this day on, Bajaw is dead.

1257
00:53:52.679 --> 00:53:55.019
All of Bajor.

1258
00:53:55.320 --> 00:53:57.239
Then here we go.

1259
00:53:57.300 --> 00:53:59.340
It's a scene he's going back onto the shuttle.

1260
00:53:59.460 --> 00:54:04.380
I can understand, Nathan, if people were a bit unhappy with how

1261
00:54:04.380 --> 00:54:05.519
unsubtle this is.

1262
00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:10.139
But then I just love that scene where suddenly they're all there.

1263
00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:12.719
Like the 3 of them are there.

1264
00:54:12.780 --> 00:54:13.139
It's wonderful.

1265
00:54:13.260 --> 00:54:16.440
Wait, wait, the cover comes around and they all look so happy, like

1266
00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:17.579
I love heads to me.

1267
00:54:17.639 --> 00:54:18.239
Off we go.

1268
00:54:18.360 --> 00:54:19.019
Great.

1269
00:54:19.920 --> 00:54:22.380
Couldn't we have seen them again?

1270
00:54:22.380 --> 00:54:26.519
every time he shows up from here on in.

1271
00:54:26.579 --> 00:54:31.500
I'm, you know, hiring anyone new. blunt at the moment when he

1272
00:54:31.500 --> 00:54:34.860
kills Max, if Kira had been in his ear going, go on, do it, do

1273
00:54:34.860 --> 00:54:35.039
it.

1274
00:54:35.099 --> 00:54:35.460
Yeah.

1275
00:54:35.460 --> 00:54:39.599
Wonderful.

1276
00:54:39.659 --> 00:54:42.360
I mean, that was just absolutely mad.

1277
00:54:42.420 --> 00:54:43.800
I love it.

1278
00:54:43.860 --> 00:54:47.400
That's my sort of operatic trauma.

1279
00:54:47.460 --> 00:54:48.119
Exactly.

1280
00:54:48.179 --> 00:54:49.260
That terrific stuff.

1281
00:54:49.320 --> 00:54:50.219
It is pretty amazing.

1282
00:54:50.280 --> 00:54:51.599
But it's subtle.

1283
00:54:51.659 --> 00:54:54.119
And then...

1284
00:54:54.420 --> 00:54:57.719
But I also don't like this final scene either.

1285
00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:00.360
No, this is the bit I said that push is too hard.

1286
00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:03.719
It's just like we've just watched this.

1287
00:55:03.780 --> 00:55:08.159
It's the usual Star Trek thing. we've just spent 43 minutes

1288
00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:10.440
watching this and now we're going to explain.

1289
00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:13.619
And it's going to be Cisco saying, do you know what?

1290
00:55:13.679 --> 00:55:16.260
I think Guldukat might really be evil.

1291
00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:17.579
And you kind of just go, oh.

1292
00:55:17.699 --> 00:55:20.639
If the dialogue crushed hard before, this is really, you know.

1293
00:55:20.699 --> 00:55:22.920
I fear no evil.

1294
00:55:22.980 --> 00:55:25.679
No, no, no, no, no.

1295
00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:27.719
But also, like, you hear me?

1296
00:55:28.500 --> 00:55:30.900
What the hell is going on with her hair in this?

1297
00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:33.239
It's weird in this episode, actually.

1298
00:55:33.300 --> 00:55:37.199
I don't mind a big close-up on Beautiful Wavered Brooks, though

1299
00:55:37.199 --> 00:55:38.579
you know, with that thing on his head.

1300
00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:41.639
Never mind. can work around it.

1301
00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:47.159
I mean, come on, we've just seen Dukat going off with his Phantoms

1302
00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:49.980
of Doom, you know, like we know he's evil.

1303
00:55:50.099 --> 00:55:51.840
Yeah, yeah. that's it.

1304
00:55:51.900 --> 00:55:53.219
We've watched television before.

1305
00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:56.940
It's the usual Star Trek thing where we can't just let it end.

1306
00:55:57.000 --> 00:56:00.599
Imagine if it had just ended. you can't heading off into the

1307
00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:01.019
galaxy.

1308
00:56:01.079 --> 00:56:04.800
That is so pony to realise that is one thing.

1309
00:56:04.860 --> 00:56:06.480
To do something is another.

1310
00:56:06.539 --> 00:56:08.340
So what are you going to do?

1311
00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:12.179
I'll just hang around until the end of next year and then, you

1312
00:56:12.179 --> 00:56:13.739
know, like...

1313
00:56:13.739 --> 00:56:17.340
I'm sure it'll turn up... with a genocidal plan.

1314
00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:21.780
We'll be ready It's not my end of the season.

1315
00:56:21.840 --> 00:56:23.820
He's in his dad's restaurant scrubbing potatoes.

1316
00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:24.420
He's given up.

1317
00:56:24.480 --> 00:56:25.199
Yeah, he is.

1318
00:56:25.260 --> 00:56:25.739
That's right.

1319
00:56:25.860 --> 00:56:28.380
Or clams, isn't he scrubbing clams?

1320
00:56:28.440 --> 00:56:31.139
I mean, it's kind of weird that they're having this conversation

1321
00:56:31.139 --> 00:56:36.179
and she's the victim of at the end of the season. you know what I

1322
00:56:36.179 --> 00:56:36.360
mean?

1323
00:56:36.420 --> 00:56:37.320
Yeah, yeah.

1324
00:56:37.380 --> 00:56:39.179
She's like, well, what are you going to do?

1325
00:56:39.239 --> 00:56:42.059
Maybe if he had gone after him, then she'd still be alive at the

1326
00:56:42.059 --> 00:56:42.539
end of the season.

1327
00:56:42.599 --> 00:56:45.840
Well, or maybe if he hadn't goaded him.

1328
00:56:45.900 --> 00:56:47.280
Do you know what I mean?

1329
00:56:47.340 --> 00:56:48.599
Like maybe if you hadn't goaded him.

1330
00:56:48.659 --> 00:56:52.320
What if that final scene was about Cisco wondering how complicity

1331
00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:55.619
was in creating this version of Jacquard?

1332
00:56:55.679 --> 00:56:57.659
Because he does do that?

1333
00:56:57.719 --> 00:57:01.619
Like he deliberately needles him until he realises what he's

1334
00:57:01.619 --> 00:57:01.860
really like.

1335
00:57:01.980 --> 00:57:06.420
And even though it's not said, he does feel personally responsible

1336
00:57:06.420 --> 00:57:10.860
when stopping him, like in wily behind, you know. no, I've got to

1337
00:57:10.860 --> 00:57:12.000
go, I've got to do this.

1338
00:57:12.239 --> 00:57:16.679
We're into sort of destiny dialogue at that point, you know.

1339
00:57:16.739 --> 00:57:19.440
But it might have been more interesting if it had been more real

1340
00:57:19.440 --> 00:57:22.500
if it's just like, I really shouldn't have pushed so far because

1341
00:57:22.500 --> 00:57:27.480
he lost it and now... you know, ducks, I don't think he knew.

1342
00:57:27.539 --> 00:57:30.659
Just what bastard he was until I pointed it out to him in that

1343
00:57:30.659 --> 00:57:30.900
cage.

1344
00:57:31.019 --> 00:57:32.880
Well, that's it. you know what I mean?

1345
00:57:32.940 --> 00:57:35.880
Like, maybe that would anyway, like, it's Star Trek.

1346
00:57:35.940 --> 00:57:39.239
It's always going to kind of overexplain, you know, it's part of

1347
00:57:39.239 --> 00:57:39.659
the thing.

1348
00:57:39.719 --> 00:57:41.099
We're just kind of used to it.

1349
00:57:41.159 --> 00:57:45.659
But, uh, that was, that was super interesting.

1350
00:57:45.659 --> 00:57:46.559
At the end of TV.

1351
00:57:46.619 --> 00:57:49.800
If we have to say about that enterprise episode, nothing at all.

1352
00:57:49.860 --> 00:57:52.679
We didn't stop talking for hours.

1353
00:57:52.739 --> 00:57:57.960
And, you know, technically there's less happening here, as in, it's

1354
00:57:57.960 --> 00:57:59.340
a cave, it's 2 people.

1355
00:57:59.400 --> 00:58:03.239
There was more sets and things going on in that enterprise, but

1356
00:58:03.239 --> 00:58:04.500
there was just no substance at all.

1357
00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:06.059
This is a good substance.

1358
00:58:06.119 --> 00:58:10.019
All character, all of that history from the show coming in and

1359
00:58:10.019 --> 00:58:11.340
creating drama now.

1360
00:58:11.400 --> 00:58:16.260
The biggest takeaway from this episode is the more Marco Lamo, the

1361
00:58:16.260 --> 00:58:16.500
better.

1362
00:58:16.559 --> 00:58:17.940
He's just wonderful.

1363
00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:19.800
Absolutely he is.

1364
00:58:27.119 --> 00:58:31.679
All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to

1365
00:58:31.679 --> 00:58:33.659
work out where we're going next.

1366
00:58:33.719 --> 00:58:37.199
Deep Shace 9 was your 1st love, and my 1st love will always be

1367
00:58:37.199 --> 00:58:40.980
Star Trek the Next Generation, and so we are going to watch an

1368
00:58:40.980 --> 00:58:42.480
episode of that.

1369
00:58:42.599 --> 00:58:46.019
Maybe not an episode quite as exciting.

1370
00:58:46.079 --> 00:58:50.159
No, or as operatic or substantial as what we've just watched.

1371
00:58:50.219 --> 00:58:52.320
What if it's loud as a whisper.

1372
00:58:52.380 --> 00:58:59.820
The 1st... story with a little chorus of 3 people, you know, saying

1373
00:58:59.820 --> 00:59:00.719
what someone thinks.

1374
00:59:00.780 --> 00:59:05.760
I'm gonna cross my fingers and hope we get a gates or a marina

1375
00:59:05.760 --> 00:59:06.119
episode.

1376
00:59:06.179 --> 00:59:11.099
Admittedly, that's only 20 episodes of the 179 episode one.

1377
00:59:11.159 --> 00:59:11.760
Oh, that's true.

1378
00:59:11.760 --> 00:59:13.679
But still, I'm hoping.

1379
00:59:13.679 --> 00:59:14.820
Keep your fingers crossed.

1380
00:59:14.880 --> 00:59:16.139
Cross them hard.

1381
00:59:16.199 --> 00:59:16.800
Here goes.

1382
00:59:17.099 --> 00:59:19.739
Oh, we've done this one.

1383
00:59:19.800 --> 00:59:23.699
Oh, it's season one, episode 8 justice.

1384
00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:27.239
Oh, we was together when we did that one.

1385
00:59:27.300 --> 00:59:28.679
Episode 61.

1386
00:59:28.800 --> 00:59:30.119
All that time ago.

1387
00:59:30.179 --> 00:59:36.000
Let's try another one Ooh, season seven, episode six.

1388
00:59:36.719 --> 00:59:38.940
Phantasms.

1389
00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:40.800
Oh, it's a fun one.

1390
00:59:40.860 --> 00:59:43.380
That's the one where it sure is a cake, isn't it?

1391
00:59:43.440 --> 00:59:46.860
Yeah, a cellular peptide cake with me frosting.

1392
00:59:46.920 --> 00:59:50.460
I don't really remember what on earth the plot's about.

1393
00:59:50.519 --> 00:59:52.559
A date is our own funny dreams, isn't he?

1394
00:59:52.619 --> 00:59:56.400
Um, and beyond the cake, I don't know, isn't it?

1395
00:59:56.460 --> 00:59:59.280
Is it an emergence that has the funny dreams?

1396
00:59:59.340 --> 01:00:00.360
Dade has the funny dreams.

1397
01:00:00.719 --> 01:00:02.699
Oh, was it birthright?

1398
01:00:02.760 --> 01:00:02.940
Yeah.

1399
01:00:03.059 --> 01:00:03.659
Yeah.

1400
01:00:03.659 --> 01:00:05.099
Anyway, it's a lot, right?

1401
01:00:05.159 --> 01:00:07.739
Okay, let's try another one.

1402
01:00:07.800 --> 01:00:08.219
Okay.

1403
01:00:08.280 --> 01:00:09.239
No, let's do another one.

1404
01:00:12.360 --> 01:00:16.860
Season five, episode 22 imaginary friend.

1405
01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:18.659
Oh, dismal.

1406
01:00:18.719 --> 01:00:20.880
I mean, it would be fun to do.

1407
01:00:21.179 --> 01:00:23.340
It's got some terrible little moppet in it.

1408
01:00:23.400 --> 01:00:27.300
Yeah, yeah, yeah. an evil moppet as well.

1409
01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:29.400
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of mopper tree.

1410
01:00:29.460 --> 01:00:31.260
All right, let's try to...

1411
01:00:31.320 --> 01:00:33.239
Otherwise I will kill them all.

1412
01:00:33.300 --> 01:00:35.820
She's probably super famous now.

1413
01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:36.840
Do you know what I mean?

1414
01:00:36.900 --> 01:00:38.880
Like the way that cursed dumpsters in an episode.

1415
01:00:38.940 --> 01:00:39.360
Yeah.

1416
01:00:39.480 --> 01:00:40.380
Okay.

1417
01:00:41.099 --> 01:00:44.280
We've done this one and it's excellent.

1418
01:00:44.340 --> 01:00:45.360
Who watches the watches?

1419
01:00:45.420 --> 01:00:46.619
Oh, one of them.

1420
01:00:46.619 --> 01:00:47.880
It was episode 141.

1421
01:00:48.119 --> 01:00:49.320
Superb staff.

1422
01:00:49.380 --> 01:00:51.659
Angel one we've also done.

1423
01:00:51.719 --> 01:00:55.260
Oh, I'm tired of Star. a very different sort of a way.

1424
01:00:55.320 --> 01:00:56.159
Yes, yeah.

1425
01:00:56.219 --> 01:00:59.099
I mean, superb in a hairy chess sort of a way.

1426
01:00:59.159 --> 01:01:00.300
Yeah.

1427
01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:01.500
Oh, Trent.

1428
01:01:01.619 --> 01:01:02.400
Remember Trent?

1429
01:01:02.460 --> 01:01:03.599
Fuck off, Trent.

1430
01:01:03.659 --> 01:01:04.079
Oh, yeah.

1431
01:01:05.400 --> 01:01:11.099
Okay, so this is season four, episode 10, The Loss.

1432
01:01:11.460 --> 01:01:15.719
Oh, yeah, well, one, it's a Marina one. is too recent.

1433
01:01:15.780 --> 01:01:16.619
What is a merit?

1434
01:01:17.219 --> 01:01:20.579
If you thought she was a bitch and man of the people.

1435
01:01:20.699 --> 01:01:22.559
Nothing, yeah.

1436
01:01:22.619 --> 01:01:23.579
This is that one, isn't it?

1437
01:01:23.639 --> 01:01:24.599
You always go on about.

1438
01:01:24.659 --> 01:01:27.059
Yeah, maybe he's just sick of you whining about it.

1439
01:01:27.119 --> 01:01:28.980
I know, oh, no, that was man of the people.

1440
01:01:29.039 --> 01:01:30.300
That was man of the people.

1441
01:01:30.360 --> 01:01:33.059
This is kind of like our 1st run at Man of the People.

1442
01:01:33.119 --> 01:01:34.559
It's not quite as good.

1443
01:01:34.619 --> 01:01:39.539
Um, you know, in these sort of Troy loses her shit kind of stake

1444
01:01:39.539 --> 01:01:42.780
but she does lose her shit and it does have some Troy.

1445
01:01:42.900 --> 01:01:43.800
Oh, no, you know what?

1446
01:01:44.099 --> 01:01:45.119
Getting them mixed up.

1447
01:01:45.179 --> 01:01:47.519
It's because this is the one where, you know, she obviously she

1448
01:01:47.519 --> 01:01:48.960
loses her empathic abilities.

1449
01:01:49.019 --> 01:01:52.019
And then she has a disastrous counsellor session.

1450
01:01:52.079 --> 01:01:56.219
And the woman then she they have another session and she goes, no

1451
01:01:56.219 --> 01:01:56.820
no, no, no.

1452
01:01:56.880 --> 01:01:59.340
I did precisely the reverse of what you said.

1453
01:01:59.400 --> 01:02:01.320
You were absolutely wrong, Deanna.

1454
01:02:01.380 --> 01:02:02.699
There's a massive place.

1455
01:02:03.239 --> 01:02:05.159
It's like, I can't do this. anymore.

1456
01:02:05.219 --> 01:02:07.860
I'm having an existential crisis.

1457
01:02:07.920 --> 01:02:08.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1458
01:02:08.940 --> 01:02:12.480
And doesn't Riker tell her off for her sort of Bajoran kind of

1459
01:02:12.480 --> 01:02:16.260
arrogance or aristocratic sort of Bajoran arrogance?

1460
01:02:16.380 --> 01:02:19.860
And there's some lots of sort of weird techna babble that they're

1461
01:02:19.860 --> 01:02:22.380
going through this as to why she's lost it as well.

1462
01:02:22.440 --> 01:02:26.579
It's a quantum filament, a quantum stream or something.

1463
01:02:26.639 --> 01:02:29.460
Anyway, it gets no, no, I'm bored of it already.

1464
01:02:29.519 --> 01:02:30.840
I think we've said enough about it.

1465
01:02:30.900 --> 01:02:32.219
Poor Maria.

1466
01:02:32.280 --> 01:02:33.960
Oh, it's this one.

1467
01:02:34.019 --> 01:02:34.920
We're doing this one.

1468
01:02:34.980 --> 01:02:36.599
Season two.

1469
01:02:37.139 --> 01:02:38.880
Sounds promising.

1470
01:02:38.940 --> 01:02:40.440
It's not up the long ladder, is it?

1471
01:02:40.500 --> 01:02:42.659
It's up the long line, season two.

1472
01:02:43.380 --> 01:02:45.539
Oh, Begora.

1473
01:02:46.860 --> 01:02:48.360
Why?

1474
01:02:48.420 --> 01:02:51.119
Commander, don't you find me attractive?

1475
01:02:52.619 --> 01:02:54.360
We're doing it.

1476
01:02:54.420 --> 01:03:00.900
I haven't seen it for like decades. absolutely doing it. 1991

1477
01:03:00.900 --> 01:03:02.699
episode dealing with the Irish.

1478
01:03:02.760 --> 01:03:04.019
What could possibly go wrong?

1479
01:03:04.079 --> 01:03:05.639
It's 89.

1480
01:03:05.820 --> 01:03:11.039
It's 1989, but yes, it's not the high ground, which is the one

1481
01:03:11.039 --> 01:03:11.699
that was banned.

1482
01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:13.139
Oh, the terrorist one.

1483
01:03:13.199 --> 01:03:14.940
Yeah, yeah, the terrace one.

1484
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:16.199
So this isn't terrorism.

1485
01:03:16.260 --> 01:03:20.820
It's sort of, you know, redheaded stereotypes and stuff.

1486
01:03:20.880 --> 01:03:22.739
It's shockingly bad.

1487
01:03:22.800 --> 01:03:24.420
Yeah, and they've all...

1488
01:03:24.420 --> 01:03:26.940
They've got like loads of chickens in the cargo bay because

1489
01:03:26.940 --> 01:03:29.460
obviously they're all... farm folk.

1490
01:03:29.519 --> 01:03:30.539
Yeah, yeah.

1491
01:03:30.599 --> 01:03:33.659
It's really, really, really bad.

1492
01:03:33.900 --> 01:03:37.739
We've got to do these one or 2 ones eventually, though, don't we?

1493
01:03:37.860 --> 01:03:42.000
So, imagine, I guess they do do stereotypes of other cultures and

1494
01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:46.440
stuff, but it just seems to me that the British Isles. you know, is

1495
01:03:46.440 --> 01:03:48.900
particularly victim to it.

1496
01:03:49.019 --> 01:03:49.920
Do you know what I mean?

1497
01:03:49.980 --> 01:03:50.880
It's like, I don't know.

1498
01:03:50.940 --> 01:03:53.519
I don't think we don't deserve it, though, you know.

1499
01:03:53.519 --> 01:03:56.639
If we went to the English planet, it was just like an Aztar car

1500
01:03:56.639 --> 01:03:58.559
park with people beating the shit out of each other.

1501
01:03:59.159 --> 01:04:00.599
We went to the Scottish planet, didn't we?

1502
01:04:00.659 --> 01:04:01.619
Do you remember?

1503
01:04:01.619 --> 01:04:03.059
We've been the Scottish player.

1504
01:04:03.059 --> 01:04:04.920
The Irish fan at this side.

1505
01:04:04.980 --> 01:04:06.360
Oh, Beverly Crusher.

1506
01:04:06.840 --> 01:04:08.760
It's so bad.

1507
01:04:08.880 --> 01:04:11.820
The Scottish planet where they're upset that it's foggy and

1508
01:04:11.820 --> 01:04:13.980
raining and they don't know what's gone wrong.

1509
01:04:14.039 --> 01:04:19.380
Genuinely seem to remember, and I'm praying that I'm wrong, that

1510
01:04:19.380 --> 01:04:23.579
the lead Irish gypsy man in out the long ladder.

1511
01:04:23.639 --> 01:04:25.260
There's a moment.

1512
01:04:25.320 --> 01:04:28.619
There's literally a moment where he's sort of drinking alcohol and

1513
01:04:28.619 --> 01:04:31.440
gets hit on the head and there's like a close-up of him through

1514
01:04:31.440 --> 01:04:37.800
his sort of boss eyes going, I swear to God, maybe I'm making that

1515
01:04:37.800 --> 01:04:38.219
up.

1516
01:04:38.280 --> 01:04:41.400
But it's every stereotype you could possibly imagine.

1517
01:04:41.460 --> 01:04:43.679
I mean, I can't think why we wouldn't do it.

1518
01:04:43.739 --> 01:04:45.179
No, we have to.

1519
01:04:45.239 --> 01:04:46.500
Absolutely. brilliant.

1520
01:04:46.559 --> 01:04:47.880
Abandoned hope.

1521
01:04:47.940 --> 01:04:50.039
Oh, he, Uyensa here.

1522
01:04:50.099 --> 01:04:51.780
To be sure, to be sure, to be sure.

1523
01:04:51.900 --> 01:04:53.820
Very short, to be sure.

1524
01:05:00.900 --> 01:05:04.679
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford

1525
01:05:04.679 --> 01:05:05.820
and Nathan Bottomley.

1526
01:05:05.880 --> 01:05:09.179
We're online at untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find

1527
01:05:09.179 --> 01:05:11.880
subscription links and links to our social media accounts.

1528
01:05:11.940 --> 01:05:15.599
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was

1529
01:05:15.599 --> 01:05:17.280
composed by Cameron Lamb.

1530
01:05:17.340 --> 01:05:21.719
This episode was recorded on the 18th of November 2025 and

1531
01:05:21.719 --> 01:05:23.579
released on the 21st of November.

1532
01:05:23.639 --> 01:05:27.599
We'll see you next time for Star Trek, the Next Generation, up the

1533
01:05:27.599 --> 01:05:28.380
long ladder.

1534
01:05:44.579 --> 01:05:46.920
How long have you got to your holiday?

1535
01:05:46.980 --> 01:05:47.639
Three weeks.

1536
01:05:47.699 --> 01:05:48.420
Yeah.

1537
01:05:48.420 --> 01:05:50.940
Discovery's quite far behind too.

1538
01:05:51.300 --> 01:05:55.980
So it's NextGen Prodigy Voyager Discovery, Enterprise Picard.

1539
01:05:56.039 --> 01:05:58.619
I mean, there's more of next gen, isn't there?

1540
01:05:58.739 --> 01:06:01.019
But that doesn't matter, remember.

1541
01:06:01.079 --> 01:06:01.800
That doesn't matter.

1542
01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:04.559
If we do an X-Gen, it will only bump it up slightly because

1543
01:06:04.559 --> 01:06:07.860
there's more of NextGen, so each one represents. like we've done

1544
01:06:07.860 --> 01:06:08.280
loads.

1545
01:06:08.340 --> 01:06:09.659
I just don't understand that.

1546
01:06:09.719 --> 01:06:10.199
Yeah.

1547
01:06:10.260 --> 01:06:11.400
How it's always so low.

1548
01:06:11.460 --> 01:06:12.599
31.

1549
01:06:12.780 --> 01:06:18.000
So if you go by number of episodes, we've done 35 Deep Space 9s, 31

1550
01:06:18.000 --> 01:06:24.300
Next Generation, 31 Voyager, 18 Enterprises, 17 original series.

1551
01:06:24.300 --> 01:06:28.199
So with those numbers, 3 Star Trek movies or the animated series.

1552
01:06:28.260 --> 01:06:33.719
But, but you want to try and keep the percentages the same.

1553
01:06:33.780 --> 01:06:37.559
Otherwise, what ends up happening is we...

1554
01:06:37.739 --> 01:06:40.440
Voyager season one and two.

1555
01:06:40.440 --> 01:06:42.420
No, enterprise season one and 2 podcasts.

1556
01:06:42.719 --> 01:06:44.460
Please, no.

1557
01:06:45.059 --> 01:06:47.460
Sometime in 2038.

1558
01:06:48.059 --> 01:06:50.820
From my retirement home.

1559
01:06:50.880 --> 01:06:52.559
Well, surprise me.

1560
01:06:52.800 --> 01:06:54.239
Okay.

1561
01:06:57.599 --> 01:07:00.420
Well, I need jammer, though, is the question.

1562
01:07:00.960 --> 01:07:03.059
Get him up just in case.

1563
01:07:03.119 --> 01:07:03.780
Oh, okay.

1564
01:07:03.840 --> 01:07:08.460
I know where you're going then. enterprise.

1565
01:07:08.519 --> 01:07:10.559
Oh, I will need him here.

1566
01:07:10.619 --> 01:07:11.519
No, no, no.

1567
01:07:12.360 --> 01:07:15.900
All right, it's the end of the episode.