Hey, Joe. Hi.
Nathan, I've got a question for you. before we start talking about
anything.
And that is, why have I been forced to watch an episode this week
with no context at all of what I'm watching?
We're doing discovery this week, and I dipped out of discovery
during series 3 and we're doing the series 3 finale, of which I
spent the 1st 10 minutes scratching my head.
Well, I mean, to be fair, there is a previously on discovery, but
this is where basically everything comes to a head.
Boy, does it?
And so what's happened is we've had a two-part mirror universe
episode with the Guardian of Forever and with the sad departure of
Cousin Michelle from the show.
I just need to say as a quick side note, I really felt her absence
in this.
Yeah, yeah, she's magnificent.
And then we have a, what is basically a three-part story at the
end of the season that pulls together all of the plots like, you
know, who created the burn, where does the burn come from?
and also the the emerald chain.
And those have been running through the series.
And I actually think the three-parter really deftly handles those
plots and brings together the whole theme of connection
reconnection versus isolation that's been running through the
whole series and that we talked about when we did forget me not.
So there was 3 episodes of this then.
There's 3 episodes of this particular story that we're watching.
So I haven't watched the other two.
Yeah, so what happens is there's an episode called Sukal, and that
is where they discover the dilithium planet, and they've already
heard the message from Sukal's mother. and they go down and they
meet Sukal.
And that's where we 1st see Doug Jones out of out of makeup and
everyone sort of in different Star Trek latex arrangements.
And we get to meet Zakal, and so Carl nearly causes another burn
and so on.
And then we have to leave very quickly because a cyra turns up.
And so the next part, we completely leave them behind and we don't
know what's going on.
The last thing we see is a deer are kind of beaming down to the
hollow thing.
Then we get an entire kind of, it's sort of starship mine where, um
the ship is taken over by Asira and we get this sort of whole
action thing where it's about trying to reclaim the ship and so
on.
And we have no idea what's happening on the dilithium planet.
And then we come back and we have both plots in the final
episode.
Are you telling me this ain't the action episode?
No, there is a, there is a much more kind of live.
It reminds me more than anything else of Starship mine.
So that's, is that series 6?
It's the one where Picard gets his vest on, you know, and starts
crawling around the ship with a big gun, you know.
They did it again with Voyager with Janeway in a tank top. you
remember?
going around the ship?
like Ripley out of Alien, you know?
And so that was a sort of that was a great kind of action thing, a
huge action-packed thing, which just left unresolved the question
of what was happening on the dilithium planet.
And now all of those plots come together in the finale.
But there's a lot of stuff from earlier in the season in there.
There's a lot of stuff in this episode full stop.
You know, it's it's packed full of stuff.
Okay, I need to lay my cars on the table from the off.
I didn't think that this was particularly good.
And I think my biggest problem with this is the big twist of the
season, what caused the burn, because that's the mystery of this
year, isn't it?
Yeah.
It's not really, you know, like where's the Federation?
It's what brought the Federation to its knees.
And I saw fan theories going around because it was called the
burn.
People would go, why?
It must have something to do with Michael Burnham.
Yeah.
Or as you said, you know, it would be appalling if it was
discovery that had actually caused, you know, this wanton
destruction across the quadrant.
And the conclusion that the season draws, I was just staring at my
screen going, huh?
And not in a good way.
I was just like, it's so small and so insignificant.
And yes, it is thematically linked with what is going on with the
season, although I have issues with that because I feel the need
to spell that out in like specific detail in the final 10
minutes.
Like we couldn't figure it out for ourselves.
Yeah.
I just didn't get it.
I just didn't get how, uh, such a kind of galactic consequence
could come from, and it's, it's done via the most obscene of Star
Trek Technobabbles.
Like.
You know what I'm like with Star Trek.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. resonating the dilithium minds of this
planet or some such bollocks.
Like, what was the reaction?
What was the reaction to this?
I'm not sure, because I try not to be too online, because
obviously the problem with Star Trek discovery is that it's
another science fiction franchise that has women and black people
in major roles, and like, Doctor Who and trans people.
And so there is a toxic segment of fandom that I just can't bear
even to look at.
And you go on Facebook and there are just openly racist comments
and stuff about the show.
And so I don't really know what the online reaction was.
I have to say that I had a similar reaction to you.
In that, it seemed like just a tiny, insignificant thing, uh, and
that that was, that was an odd storytelling choice.
But I actually rewatching it this time thought it was a good
choice.
And we have an hour to talk about it while it's on.
So I'll make it clear why I think that it was the right choice.
See, I want to compare it to something else which I think does a
similar thing, but way, way better.
And that is how they ended the Dominion War in DS9.
Now that didn't end on a massive battle, but there was a massive
battle, and the Dominion retreated, but what happened was Odo went
down to Cardassia, he linked with the female changing for all of
about 2.5 seconds, in which time it's clear that when they unmelt
that they had this long, blonde conversation, and she goes, we're
surrendering.
And that's how it ended, but it was completely built into their
character and he then says, I'm going to be with the Great Link
And that was enough for them to say we're going to end this war.
And it was completely built into like 4 or 5 years worth of
character.
This got so disconnected from anything in discovery.
I'm just like, well, what is this?
Like, what's this got to do with anything?
I will make it clear what I think is going on here.
But it's a different type of storytelling from what we used to.
And it's a type of storytelling that I don't think 90 Strek would
have attempted.
Okay.
Well, I'm intrigued.
I'm intrigued to hear.
I'm willing to be persuaded.
All I know is, is like my gut reaction was, this is not good.
Yeah, I think it is good.
And I think it's the culmination of a really good three-parter
that that for me had had a scale to it.
It was so much fun.
One of the things about discovery is that it has this massive
scale.
It's not just people on a ship doing a space problem every week.
That is a real sense.
Oh no, I love that.
I wouldn't be here.
That's right.
This has a scale of way that the Star Trek movies have a scale
that they seem to take place in a bigger world than just the world
of the ship.
And that's how discovery operates.
And I really liked it.
You know, it's long, it's about 3 hours long in total.
Not this episode of Untitled Star Trek project, but the finale.
And so there's time for a lot of things to happen.
And so I was really here for it.
You'd be lucky if it was 3 hours long, this episode of our tiles
Star Trek.
I listen to it, 2 of us talking.
That's right.
Just one other quick thing before we go in.
I think one of my other issues with discovery is I do think all of
the seasons start off with a lot of promise.
And then I felt it with the 2nd series with the red lightning, all
of that.
It just sort of ended on a load of mawkish nonsense.
I really didn't like the end of series.
I know you like the end series one.
I found that desperately underwhelming.
And then this, I just was left very confused.
I feel like these seasons go in with huge like we're going to
deliver something amazing.
And then at the end it's like, oh, we need to wrap this up.
And there is thematic resonance and there is character, like
conclusions with each season, but I feel like the show is visually
massively ambitious, yeah?
And I think it's creatively promising, but ultimately a little bit
unambitious in how it tells a seasonal arc.
Yeah, I think I have a higher opinion of the new, although I have
to agree with you about the series 2 finale, which I did think was
there were a lot of tearful speeches in that final episode.
Don't you think this episode's immune?
All right.
There some bits at the end of this episode where they're all bred
all walking around looking at each other longingly as a big, lovely
family.
Oh, it was too much.
I was like, oh, I love that.
Instead of the kind of, you know, robots that we had in 90s trek.
Yeah, we want Picard coming into a poker game and just saying, well
I should have done this years ago, you know.
No, make me cry.
Okay, all right.
Okay.
So I'll count us in.
Yeah, I'm ready.
All right.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
You freebie, then, because you normally say free to one.
Okay, so this is our staple previous on discovery now, and we need
it.
Yeah.
We really need it.
Because without it, we're completely lost.
So I think because this is on a streaming service and it's not on
CBS, um, and it's, it's absolutely not the show that Star Trek was
in the 90s because while the early parts of a season are a bit
self-contained, like forget me not, although that introduced
things that would come later.
That was a perfect, perfect episode.
It was completely 90s trade, wasn't it?
Yeah, but this, so this is absolutely serialised.
And, you know, even more than that.
It's part 3 of a 3 part story, essentially.
So do you think this is expected now, like, of a TV show on a
streaming service that you basically it's all or nothing on the
whole?
Well, there is talk of Strange New World, the Captain Pike spinoff
being more lightly serialised than this, for people who like their
Star Trek a bit less serialised.
That sounds marvellous.
Yeah, well, I think that that is for people who find...
I know what you're thinking.
I know what you're really thinking.
Go on, I will focus in the 1990s trek.
There's 100s of episodes of 90s trek still available to watch. if
that's your thing.
But what we have here is a bigger story.
A bigger story than you can tell in 45 minutes or an hour.
And an interesting story as well, because the scale here, this is
series 3.
And so we've been introduced to an entire new setting for various
reasons, which are somewhat messy.
But the premise is good.
The premises, the federation is being rebuilt.
I think the 1st 5 or 6 episodes of series 3 are probably the
strongest run of discovery episodes.
The one where they 1st go to Earth, and as they discover that
hologram of the guy who's talking about like the Federation.
All of that, the mystery of what's happened with the burn.
I was truly invested in all of that.
Wow, those robots are amazing.
Those robots are horrific.
These are the dots and there's a fantastic short trek called E
Frame and Dot, which is about one of them.
It's really great, but I think they're adorable.
Are they sticking around?
I swear they were repairing them at the end.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, they're all over the ship.
They're part of the ship's self-repair system.
So here's a gormagander.
We saw one of those in series one.
This is amazingly beautiful because this is a, what's happening in
this part of the plot.
We're in the holodeck, a big holodeck on this shit.
And it's the holodeck that Sukal has grown up in.
And it looks like a haunted house.
Yes, looks just like a haunted house.
And so there are staircases.
It's dark.
The camera keeps rolling over and It's doing something weird.
No, no, no, it's doing something weird and hypnotic with the
holiday, which night is track did not do.
They used it as an excuse to go off to Da Vinci's or, you know, a
pool table or James Bond boy or something like that.
Yeah, yeah.
But it wasn't like you can do anything and this is doing anything
isn't it?
And so this, I think, operates on that level.
We're in a scary house with a monster and like a wise old man.
And so I think this is operating in this sort of strange fairy
tale way.
And I don't know if you remember, but the way that they find this
ship is that Sir Carl's mother sends out a message and that
message is encoded in a melody and that melody appears over and
over again in the earlier episodes.
And the melody is a lullaby.
So there's a lullaby that brings them here. all along the
watchtower.
Yeah, yeah.
It's not, you know, that's pretty great.
Why is the doctor like a Bajoran?
So on in this, I think it's an excuse, right, to get Doug Jones
out of makeup.
And so in this...
Oh my god, it's like Doc Jones, I've literally just I just
realised that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wow.
So it's, yeah.
Yeah.
And he's wonderful in it.
It's this incredible thing, you know, where he's had this career
playing latex covered people, like the gentleman and the fish that
that woman fucks in shape of water.
And and he is.
Oh, and look, look, look, this is Hugh seeing Gray for the 1st
time.
And this is all real...
Okay.
I was going to come on holidays. was all really, really nice.
And it's about bloody time, Star Trek gave us like a gay family
isn't it?
Yeah.
And the thing about about him having kind eyes because he does and
that smile.
I love how...
Oh, man, is it tough?
What's the doctor's name?
Kuba?
Hugh.
Yeah. and his partner.
They're both really tactile with them.
I really love that as well.
It's very Cisco and Jake, isn't it?
It feels real, you know?
You touch your family, aren't you?
You're close to them.
And it is a proper family thing.
Like in one of these episodes, Paul talks about having a child and
he means a Dira.
So it is the gay family.
Look at that monster.
That terrifying monster.
Like, you know what?
I want to say from the old.
Like, um, the budget of this show is extraordinary, how it looks
is incredible.
As you said to me in a message, it looks better than the majority
of the films.
Like it is, it is an assault on the census, this TV show.
Yeah, it's also that you don't quite know what you're seeing.
So this is just, you know, like the federation base or whatever
but the shapes of the ships in the background are really weird and
indistinct.
They're odd. like they're like nothing that we've ever seen in
Star Trek.
And then the space itself, this weird sort of toroidal force field
thing.
Like, it's it's visually very strange, and I really, really like
that.
However, I am going to go with Jamma from Jamma's reviews here.
I don't think they do space battles, particularly adeptly in
discovery.
It's a lot.
I disagree with that.
Okay, okay.
Well, look, that's a look there, but it's all a bit sedate.
The ships are moving incredibly slowly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But they're trying to sell that they're big.
You know, the...
Furious, you know?
Well, we'll get to that.
We'll get to the action.
Yeah, yeah.
But so, this green woman.
So this is a Cyrus.
She's head of the emerald chain.
And she turns up quite early in the season.
She has a couple of episodes one where book is kind of in this
labour camp.
I think he might have seen that one.
We might have talked about that And then later on she comes back
to threaten Quajon, and she's really, really sort of fabulously
evil.
And she has turned...
I think she was a little bit wooden.
I don't think she'd be too out of place in like a Graham Williams
Doctor Who story.
She's very over the top.
I love that.
I think you know, having a female villain.
She's English.
She's icily English.
Of course she's English.
Yeah.
Because we're all bloody evil, aren't we?
Malcolm, absolutely.
I can list them all.
I think the makeup is slightly weird, but what they've done is
they've created this thing called the Emerald Chain, and I don't
think they've really looked at kind of looked into it in a lot of
detail, but she actually turns up on the Federation base and tries
to negotiate with Vance joining together.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And and the whole, the whole season has been about rejoining, you
know, we've started with 38 worlds and we're we're trying to get
more people to rejoin the federation and and get it to be a new
thing.
And it's all about connection versus isolation and stuff like
that.
And they haven't been particularly successful.
You know, Earth and Navarre are both not interested in joining.
True is.
At the end of the episode.
Well, so is Navarre at the end of the episode, but they're not
during the show.
So what we have is lots of frightened isolationist groups that
don't want to join together.
But Asara does want to join with them.
And she presents the challenge that she's a criminal who has
harmed a lot of people and that she's a capitalist and they don't
want to do capitalism.
And so the whole thing founders.
The reason that she wants to destroy the Federation in this
episode is that last episode her negotiations with Admiral Vance
failed.
And Vance said she that we would join with the emerald chain
provided she was put on trial.
And so she did a big villain flounce and headed off.
And it was a pretty spectacular flower.
In terms of Star Trek villainy.
She's pretty small fry, isn't she?
But, you know, like, I don't know why Star Trek doesn't do
villains all that much.
Are you kidding me?
Well, Deep Space 9 has regular villains, but it's about the...
It does.
You know, I want the Kardassians exterminated.
I mean come on.
Yeah.
But I, you know, she's less high concept than any of those. and
they have 7 years to develop and she's just in this season.
Will we remember her in years?
I will, I think she's fabulous.
And I like the green streaks in her hair.
That's why you're over it.
That's what I want That's absolutely true.
I mean, to be fair, She wouldn't be out of price in a original
series episode.
Even the look of that.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, she isn't, she's, um, Orion, like Tendee.
Only not as nice.
Yeah, so, and the other thing is that I can't believe that David
David Cronenberg is a skinny regular guitar, isn't it?
I think he's very...
And kind of handsome as well.
Yeah, yeah, he's looking good.
The glasses are really great too.
I like this.
I like that they have a home base and that because I guess
Discovery had Katrina, that Admiral in series one.
Do you remember the admiral who'd had the relationship?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Who I thought was fantastic.
I thought she was really, really good.
And one of the things that Discovery does.
And partly it's just a result of how messy its production has been
and how it's kind of floundered and tried to find what it's going
to do over the 1st couple of years, is that people come in and out
of it.
And the cast now, the, the regular cast, it doesn't have a regular
cast in the way that um, 90s trek does.
Or here, finally, at 12 minutes of the opening.
I find it very interesting at the end of this episode, they put
Burnham in the captain's chair because one of the things you and I
celebrated about discovery was that this was her show and she
wasn't, wasn't captain.
Yeah.
And, you know, like, and you said the show was ever more heading
to in a very Star Trek direction and leaning into the cliches.
And towards the end of this episode, it felt like I'm not sure
about the 1st 50 minutes, but the last 10 minutes felt so Star
Trek. like Star Trek of the past.
Yeah.
I think that it's an artefact of the production, which is that it
was going to be an anthology series originally.
And so the story of discovery would have been the 1st season
interesting to see how it would have panned out.
But then you get these actors and these sets and the premise and
stuff and you sort of think, why are we throwing this away after a
year?
And so we keep going.
You know, you love Saru as the captain.
And I did too.
I thought he was, I didn't forget we're not, he was especially
good.
But I really liked.
I can't remember the fellow's name now because it was a few
seasons back.
In season one.
The guy from the Mirror Universe, Jason Isaacs.
Oh, my God.
I really liked him, you know, because he was like, you know, a
quiet badass on the side.
Yeah, you know?
And you weren't sure whether you liked him or not.
And I love that with Saru, you like Saru.
With Burnham, you like Burnham, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I thought he was terrific and he was sort of hot and sweaty
and stuff.
Yeah, yeah.
So now we come out of the opening credits into this space.
And the space.
So what I'm, what my theory is, this is a fairy tale in all sorts
of ways.
So they have been drawn here by a lullaby that has attracted them
to this space and they now play out what the season is about with
just this one person, but in a mythic space where there's a
monster in a haunted house where everyone is wearing the wrong
Star Trek makeup.
Well, that's incredibly literal, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, but, but, um, Yeah, and and and so everyone appears as
the wrong race so they can get Doug Jones out of the makeup and so
that the reveal of Doug Jones as a Kelpian, another Kelpian, uh
happens later.
And so what they need to do is they need to work with him so that
he can face his fears and go outside.
And that's the mission of discovery this season is to go from
place to place where people are isolated and frightened and
traumatised by the burn and convince them to overcome that and
join in with something bigger.
And so the whole series, the whole theme of the series, all that
stuff about connection, um, which is super explicit, I think.
I'm not reading stuff into that plot.
Oh, boy, is it explicit?
In that final log.
Yeah, oh, well, yeah, yeah.
I mean, that is a thing that Discovery does, which is I think we
could do with less. learned how to...
And off we go to create the Federation.
I mean, it's built into Star Trek style, isn't it?
Because we always have captain's log, you know, Stardate.
Now, here's how I'm feeling about the thing instead of showing
you.
Not to Crusher has repaired us with her usual scale.
Yes, that's right.
How do they go from salamanders to human beings between themes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that is a thing.
So, and I do think, like, I do think that reading is absolutely
there.
I do also think that those scenes between Doug Jones on that
character were just interminable and they went on and on and on.
I don't I was just, I kept, I kept asking myself, why am I
supposed to care about this character?
Where are we going?
Who is this character and why am I supposed to care about him?
Are we going to see him again?
Probably not.
So we're just we're just dealing with this this character in this
season as a reason for why we we are going to see him again.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Well, yeah, he's back at beat.
I'm a little more invested Yeah, yeah.
Well, see, you still go on a bit, though.
Like, yeah.
And and he was introduced obviously 2 episodes ago and we've been
wondering what's been happening.
Do you know throughout last week's episode, we didn't know where
this was going?
I'm starting to wonder then, because you know, your fairy tale
reading.
Fabulous.
But like, you had a similar reading with in the wonderful flight
for entirety in series 5 of Doctor Who.
I didn't like that either.
So I'm wondering if I just don't like fairy tales.
Fairy tales.
See, I think that most people wanted there to be a big space
reason for the bird.
Like the Romulans or some fucking thing.
And I actually think that that would have been terrible.
Had it been caused intentionally, that would be something we
couldn't come back from.
So for a little while, I had thought that, obviously, everyone
thought discovery might have caused it, and that would have
wrecked the show.
Like if they had destroyed the Federation, then...
It could have been the Dominions revenge.
You know, we'd never have to paint them as good guys because they
were the bad guys anyway.
Yeah, but I don't know that they want to do the Dominion.
They did a shape shifter in series 4 the other day. exciting.
They're leaning more and more into DS 9.
I approve.
I'm not in serious 4 yet, but I approve.
But also think as well, if you are going to be doing scenes with
like a man who has the kind of the intellect and the emotional
capacity of a child, you have to be a little bit careful in
writing and playing that.
And I don't know if I didn't feel a little bit uncomfortable in
some of these scenes as well.
Yeah.
Um, but that's just a personal reading.
Yeah, I, I mean, I, I think that getting Saru to do this because
Saru is kind and diplomatic and gentle and, and we, there's an
urgency here because, uh, we've got a bit of a Charlie X situation
with Sakal, because if Shakal gets too upset, he can cause another
burn.
I'd say Charlie X was a bit scarier though, wouldn't it?
Yeah, those scary eyes.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's an ugly, weird...
But this guy has got this guy here on this play, he's got far
reaching consequence.
If he gets pissed, you're in trouble.
Yeah, that's right.
And so he has to be managed because he can kind of blow it up.
And so the stakes are hard.
But is he only there?
Where there's all dilithium around.
I think that's the idea.
And then it resonates outwards and then...
Because space in discovery is different as well.
Because we've had the Mycelial network, which appears to be a
subspace realm full of mushrooms, which is...
Why not?
bafflingly weird.
And I'm absolutely here for it.
I don't care.
And this where, you know, there's some kind of quantum
entanglement that joins all of the dilithium in the world
together.
Sorry, I leisure cannot listen anymore.
You're going to start spouting Technobabble.
All right.
That's a real thing.
So all of the, it's magic.
What you do to a big bunch of dilithium happens to all of the
other bunches of dilithium, essentially.
I hate magic warm situations, you know.
No, that's that's proper magic in the sense that, you know, doing
something to a symbol or doing something to part of something
affects the whole thing or affects the thing that it refers to.
So I think there's a that it operates on the level of magic, the
burn.
I mean, you know what?
It's absolutely subverting expectations and it's completely
original.
And I approve of that.
However, there are many things I can say are completely original
to the expectations that are still a bit shit.
You know?
Yeah, I don't think this is a bit shit, though.
I can't think of a space reasons way that this would have been
acceptable.
So if some alien race had done it, then we have a big evil villain
and that's not what this show wants to do because this show is
about connection and overcoming difference.
That's why I love to do that.
That's what I loved about this night. was it was a big villain and
there was something to fight against and yeah, yeah, yeah.
But then you get cross at Picard, which is cynical and doesn't
have that overarching, loving theme.
Yeah, there's a Star Trek that can be nasty. and this is, I mean
we're here watching book get tortured.
That's reasonably...
It has its moments, discovery.
That little close-up of Michael's eye, which just says, actually
I'm now going to kick the shit out of these people.
She's been there doing her distressed at my boyfriend being
tortured face.
Even though Michael Burnham is, in fact, extremely pretty.
She has done very well for herself.
He is gorgeous.
He is beautiful.
But she's stunning.
He's in a Doctor Who.
Is he?
He's in the beast below.
He's one of the smilers in the beast below.
You mean they put a mask on his face?
No, well, and he turns around.
You see his face.
He's kind of the hero smiling.
He hasn't, like, I know I know he's been in throughout the season
because I remember him in the 1st episode, but he hasn't really
had like an enormous role, has he?
He's basically...
Oh, okay.
I thought you said that basically he was her other half and that's
kind of his role.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
But that is an important role.
That's quite a refresh actor's partner. for a man to get that role
just to be the other arse.
Yeah, support somebody.
He's the Cassidy Yates of Discovery.
Now you're talking.
Okay, now look, we're heading into the relentless stream of
thrilling action that this episode is going to throw it.
Now, I don't object to action, all right?
And I do think that they bring it to life very adeptly.
There's just so much of it.
And it's like die hard or something like that.
After a while, after 5 minutes into an action set piece.
It's like the Star Trek movies, the Kelvin ones.
I just go, well, my brain just turns off and I'm just like, well
it's just stuff happening now, you know?
But, I mean, what's happening here?
So...
Like there's a there's a character thing.
Here's Tilly and Tilly was in charge of the ship.
I do too, when when it was taken over, and this is her in a
leadership role, and that's part of her ongoing art.
You know what I like about her is it actually shows how things
have changed because, and I'm not going to make any disparaging
remarks about how she looks because there's plenty of people out
there doing that unless appalling.
Back in the day, they were told to starve themselves, essentially
in 90s to squeeze into those thin uniforms.
So they all had to be athletic and blah, blah, blah.
And, you know, she isn't.
And it's wonderful to see. frankly.
So she's recently come out as queer Mary Wiseman, and she was on
the front cover of a magazine.
I think it might have been Atitude magazine in the US, which had
lots of covers of all of the queer cast of Discovery.
And she, she, I think we retweeted it from the untitled trek
Twitter thing, but she was just talking about how gorgeous she
looked and how she was kicking off. the actress and the character
they just own themselves, don't they?
And it's wonderful.
It's also that she is more like a real person than maybe nearly
any other Star Trek character.
She's like someone you know.
And even though she's sort of girly.
Like I love her in that, um, in the time loop episode in series
one where she's drinking and eyeing off soldiers and stuff.
I love it when they started...
I have an evil costume in the mirror universe.
Do you remember, and forget me, not, where she was talking about
the big fight that they've had at the dinner table.
She said, you know, on my place.
This is just a regular Tuesday or whatever.
It was the closest we've come to this before.
Latter-day Dax.
It was a bit of a party animal, bisexual.
Yeah, she is.
But she's a little bit more reserved, whereas Tilly is, you know
Mouthian kind of slightly enough.
Like, I think people found her annoying initially.
But I think she's tremendous.
It's a great character.
I'm properly embarrassed because I literally, as I was watching
this episode last night, one of my 1st questions was going to be
that actor is so good.
Who is it?
And it's, and it's, it's, it's so good.
I didn't even realise I've been watching him for the last 4
years.
He's wonderful, isn't he?
It's so great And so that thing is clearly a device just to get
him out of makeup, but it also creates that sense of unreality
where the roles that they play as different races are all kind of
swapped.
It makes it more theatrical or distances it from reality.
And it kind of we keep coming towards this.
I can't, um, I can't imagine a reason for the burn that isn't
that.
You want it, it needs to be an accident.
Well, it needs to be an accident.
And that's what I don't like about it.
I want to be deliberate.
I think, I mean, the fact it's an accident, it makes it just feel
so insubstantial.
Yeah, yeah.
But the site of the accident is a place where Saru comes to play
out the themes of the show in a mythical realm where there's this
fabulous scary monster, the kelp monster.
Everything's seaweed.
I wonder when they were right in this season, you know, they were
actually thinking, you know, in their writer's room, are people
going to go with this?
Like, is this is this going to satisfy people?
Yeah, I mean, I just, I think that they needed to discover the
burn, the source of the burn.
That was a good plot arc.
It needed to not be.
I hate this makeup that a deer has gone.
Oh wait, I really like that.
She looks like a character, a f escape.
So she was, do you remember there's a princess at the end of
series 2 who is in the very 1st short trek, Poe, and I can't
remember the name of the race.
It's super annoying, isn't it?
It's just in it for an episode or...
Towards the end.
Maybe I'm thinking about Falscape now.
I think Gray makes an adorable Vulcan.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think they're poison is beautiful.
Well, he's so elf and normally.
So the pointy years work.
Do you know what's lovely about him?
He's lovely, deep voice.
He's got a really beautiful voice.
He's really serene too.
I just love it.
He's a little bit distressed here because obviously he's going to
stop being seen and that's working towards a plot in series four.
You know, like, you know, I have many reservations about the
show.
I think that is the greatest strength of discovery. is finally
Star Trek is for everybody. everybody is included.
It's not, you know, like 90s strength.
No, you know, black people are here, you're included.
Not the gays, though.
You're right.
You head over, yeah.
It's lovely.
You can be part of a very special episode if you're lucky.
Yeah, you know, they won't air it in the southern states, you
know.
Yeah, that's right.
And there'll be this huge controversy and we'll have to close off
the set for the kiss and what the hell?
Now, here is the ridiculous techno babble that explains how a
crying child can set off the burn.
But, I mean, come on.
There's nothing more Star Trek than this.
No, no, no, absolutely.
And it doesn't go on for too long.
It is just a few lines and I don't care.
It's magic and it's the distress of someone who is isolated, which
has resonated throughout the galaxy and that's how the galaxy
feels right now.
It feels like this where there are planets where, you know, like
Trill and Navarre, like even Earth has turned into this place
that's completely isolated, that's fearful of facing what's
outside.
And so I like...
The difference is, though, in, you know, in a next generation, this
would just be one single way.
It would be Sarzhenka, you know, on the planet.
Not protect the babble, and it would just be a one off.
But unfortunately, this time, the dreadful technobabble
explanation has a huge impact on the entire series.
Yeah.
What about what about Futu Imperfect?
Was it Future and Perfect?
The one where the kid?
is in the holodeck and he's by himself and he tries to get himself
a dad or whatever.
Twist after twist, isn't it?
Like, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a good episode that, you know.
Yeah.
But I mean, this obviously borrows from that as well.
I love, there's that shot about how the world is degrading, where
it's being shot through a crack in the wall and as they talk about
it, the crack in the wall widens, like bits of it fall off.
I disagree that this is poorly directed.
I think it's magnificently well directed.
I said it was poorly directed.
I think Jammer was not particularly happy with it.
And people complain about the camera work, but I mean, oh, no, no.
You complain about the camera work when, you know, taking giddy
sickness tablets just to get for a scene.
There's none of that going on.
I think he called the camera work obnoxious.
Which is a very strong word for this.
Well, I think that's this is television now, and it's not...
I don't think all television has...
I don't think all TV.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
It does look incredible.
Like, you know, our other favourite, Doctor Who.
It has a fair budget.
They could not do... attempt for what they're doing here.
Yeah.
And but to sell action, you need to, you know, the way that we do
that now is, can I just shake your camera work?
point out that there is a gust blowing through this corridor that
is making Tilly's hair flow beautifully.
I mean, she's never had more heroic, has she?
Well, I mean, they've turned the life support off, so the oxygen's
coming out with the added benefit of making, oh, debt maze. going
to contradict what you're about.
Who the hell are these nobody?
She's in this corridor with.
I mean, I don't know, any of these bunches.
I know you don't know.
I know that is.
Yeah.
And you know who Oa Shakun is, don't you?
Like Joanna Oishakun?
Why I do?
But all I know is that every now and again, the 2 of them look
longingly across the room at each other and it's like, are they in
a relationship?
No.
Is it just a very strong friendship?
Because it feels like every every episode I've watched, they're
just staring longingly at each other.
So.
And then we've got Bryce and Reese, both of whom are quite
pretty.
And then we have another woman who I don't know who she is.
I mean, I did like the action between Burnham and the Green Woman
because I just love Girl and Go action, and that's not as kinky as
it sounds, all right?
Although, there's that appalling bit where they try and convince
you that Burnham has been killed. and I'm just like, really?
Well, you know, that's a staple of. just waiting for a bit where
the bolt's going to come through and take out, you know, the Orion
woman.
I mean, look at it.
I mean, look at like as an affection.
Now I love this.
This is incredible.
So I always wondered how the Turbo Lifts worked in Star Trek the
Next Generation.
Like, is there a network of tubes throughout the ship, then they
run along the tubes thing?
And Discovery's way of solving this.
And this isn't just 31st century technology because it happens
inside the enterprise in the 23rd century is that they float in
this massive, weird, incomprehensible space.
How does it even fit in the shit?
Is that what they're suggesting that was happening in next gym?
Oh, no, no, no, because we actually go up the shafts, don't we?
We go off a lift shop.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We climb up the shafts.
Your favourite, remember?
Disaster.
They go up all the kids.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I'd forgotten that.
And they do it in some of the movies too.
But this is so visually great that I don't give a shit.
Like, what we're asking for is it should really be more boring.
You know, like let's have tubes and instead it's like visually
really interesting.
And there's a shot here where these things that they go through
are actually appearing, they're being created out of programmable
matter as they go along, which does seem extravagant. extravagant.
That's a fair word for this episode.
So, okay, well, then my question to you is this.
If this is more visually stimulating than some of the movies, is
it that the movies aren't as visually ambitious as this?
Well, obviously the technology is better, but I also think that, um
because I think that it's, it's a Kurtzman Trek thing, and I don't
know who it comes from, but they absolutely want it to look as
well, I look as good as it possibly can.
Like, I just feel like that budget is no, no barrier with Kersman
trip.
Yeah, but it's also like this is look at that set.
That set for the computer core is stunning.
Holy crap, it's beautiful.
And, you know, I complain about reflective surfaces in 90s track.
There's plenty there.
Look at the reflective surface.
A camera better stay still.
Otherwise, it's better be seen in one of those surfaces.
Oh my.
It's beautiful.
I mean, don't get me wrong.
This is all, this all, this action is all very good, but I
remember as I was watching it, I was just going, is this still
going on?
Like, you know, but but I think that had 90s trick been able to do
this, it would have settled for it.
It's hard to say.
Because big episodes, that's what they go for.
So, yeah.
You know, they're more action-y. but in a sort of stately and not
very good world.
So, like, compare the beginning of descent part one, which we
looked at where there's that firefight, which is so listless.
It's all just like, someone comes out from behind a console, ducks
away again.
That's it.
We just stand there shooting.
There are like, do you remember the CGMAR 558 where they poured a
lot of money into a big action set piece?
And it was kind of chaotic.
And you couldn't really, there wasn't any narrative to it.
It was just ugly and nasty and there was just a lot of death.
Um, but even that's different to this.
Like there is kind of a narrative to all the action.
One of the things that discovery does, I think, is it, it does the
heist thing where it makes it very clear to you what this is for.
So Burnham is going to the data core to reset the computer because
it's running an Orion operating system.
And the others are trying to detach the Nassell to bring them out
of warp.
And it's made clear what we're trying to do and why.
And then the action happens.
And they always do that.
And I think they set up action sequences right from the very 1st
episode where something strange is happening and we're finding a
new way to use technology or something to do it.
I don't think that discovery just devolves into everyone stands
around shooting one another.
Well, I mean, like, you know, thank you very much for the
explanations because the action goes on so fucking long.
I forget after the time what they're trying to do, you know?
But I think there's another thing, right?
And it's a Doctor Who fandom thing as well, that because our shows
had no budget in particular, and therefore they consisted in
Doctor Who's case of lots of standing, talking urgently in
corridors, and in Star Trek's case of sitting around a table
talking urgently about space problems, we decided that that was a
virtue rather than a problem problem.
And the shows themselves made it a virtue.
And so they tried to work given that framework.
And I think, though, and I've said this before, part of
television's job is to be television, that it can't just be a
televised radio player, a televised stage play.
It's got to put striking visuals on screen.
And that's something that Kurtzman Trek does and something that
90s Trek really doesn't do that much of or that well.
I think it can.
I don't think it has to.
And I said it in the Power Moonlight, which we agreed, was
basically set within one room and I'm sorry.
I think it's a 1000000 times more interesting than this.
But I was so invested in that.
Whereas with this, I just kept switching off.
Well, I'm more invested in it, I think, because I've watched the
season all the way through and I kind of know all these
characters.
You know, that that horrible guy who, um, book kicks out of the
turbo lift is the evil guy who was menacing Tilly in episode two.
Um, you know, there's all sorts of characters that have come back
and things that are happening and stuff.
So I care about these these characters and what's happening here.
And because I've watched the 1st 2 episodes and like last week's
episode, I think, was really well done action.
But I like the weirdness too.
And we talked about this in forget me or not.
I, you know, the Troll Planet was stunning and all the kite, I
don't know where they were in the pools and they were going
through, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. and all that was very weird and
interesting.
I don't object to any of that.
I don't know if you actually are looking pretty.
I don't object to it, you know, being a bit in your face.
I feel like, like in this, it was just constantly stuffing things
down my neck and I was just like, just stay still for a minute, you
know, and just like, let me take in what's going on.
Well, you know, like if you want sort of stately trek where
they're all standing around talking, there's 100s of episodes of
that.
Not all the time.
Yeah, it was just it was a lot.
It was a lot happening with a lot of people.
A lot of imagery.
Yeah.
A lot of experience, my best of both.
A lot of tech that babble.
Think about...
Yeah, but I think that Star Trek wants to do that even in the 90s
but just can't afford to and just isn't good at it.
And so it finds a groove where it can just cheaply have all of our
regular cars standing around the standing set.
And we create an episode out of that. duet would be a better
episode if they literally threw weird visuals at you and action
and all of that nonsense.
Like, no, it's 2 people in a room and it means something and...
But they, they create a way of doing that, that work.
It doesn't always work.
Yes, through the acting.
But, um, I think that that's not what you would want all the time
even in 90s.
Well, no, because they push away from it, isn't they?
When they can afford to do CGI action, they absolutely do it.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Things like duet and in the pale moonlight are not run-of-the-mill
trek.
They are super special where they decide, or, you know, things
like counterpoint and stuff where they're going to, they're going
to base an episode around the acting performances of 2 characters
and they partly do that because they don't have very much money.
And so they lean into what they can afford to do and sometimes
they do a spectacular job of it.
Whereas here, they can afford to do action and they can afford to
make it exciting in a way that 90s Shrek often couldn't.
And do you remember at the time when Star Trek The Next Generation
came out and people would talk about how it was just people?
It was just nothing else like it, was there?
But I'm, that's true.
And I remember thinking it was very cinematic at the time.
But it was just lots of speechifying people giving speeches.
He's Patrick Stewart giving a giant speech.
Terrible speeches as well, you know. loneliness speeches, you
know?
But remember that that 60s trek wants to be more action-y. 90s
tracks.
It was to be very fucking weird at times.
Hands coming down.
You know, Abraham Lincoln floating through space.
Yeah.
And this wants to be that as well.
And so the... yeah, go.
I know.
I mean, we're never going to agree on this point, are we?
But it's interesting to talk about.
It's like having up, I said to you, this is like confection, yeah?
It's just, it's, it's delicious.
Yeah.
But like, someone could buy me a big box of chocolates, yeah. and
I'll eat 5 or 6 and that's wonderful.
If I eat a whole box, then I feel sick as a dog.
And I feel as if I eaten a whole box of chocolates by the end of
this.
It was just it was too much.
But the show isn't always like this.
This is the season finale, and this is their big action set piece
to end the season.
And, you know, because I've complained in this series one that it
was all very underwhelming and there weren't enough action.
You can't win with me.
So we had episodes like Forget Me Not, or the one on Navarre that
were very talky and very character focussed.
And now we just have our big blowing things up thing to end the
season.
What's the planet of Saru's planet?
What's that called?
That episode was just stunning.
With his, was it his sister?
Yeah.
Oh, man, it was so beautiful.
But it did like it absolutely slow. the pace down and made it just
in pretty much entirely carrot focussed.
And so and so the show has only like 13 episodes a year or
sometimes a bit more or whatever.
And this, I mean, this is slow.
This is not full of action.
There's a B plot. set in a haunted house.
That's a bizarre juxtaposition that you've got all of this mental
action taking place and then these kind of samey dialogue scenes
occurring in this in this hologram.
It's like, it's like fast, fast, fast, slow.
Fast, fast, fast.
That's, but that's the sort of thing that only Star Trek can do.
That's what I want.
I want Star Trek to do weird things.
And here, what we have is this little family being reconstructed
around him.
And there's a beautiful line, and it's so simple and it's a little
bit cliche, where he kind of realises he's on his own, his family
have died, his mother is dead, in what is it really, kind of
horrific scene, we'll get there.
Um, and, and, you know, I think, Hugh, maybe just says you have
us.
And that's what the show is about.
An entire...
That little family, you know, have they done that?
They're like, oh, they should.
They absolutely should.
Um, you know, it's interesting because you were talking about sort
of the fantasy led, the various tale aspects of this.
And I think like discovery leads into that a lot, you know?
Whereas Picard far less.
Picard is more of a bit like sort of Blade Runner, isn't it?
It's a picture of the future.
It's more technology about.
Oh no, you had those weird flowers like in the last one.
And there's a few bits and bulbs, but generally speaking, it's a
lot less fancy based than this.
Yeah.
Well, no, but I think Berman Trek prefers it.
And I think Berman Trek reacts against the weirdness of original
series Trek and maybe the weirdness of early next gen as well. not
calling it Burman Trek anymore, right?
Calling it 90s trek.
Bad taste in the mouth.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so like 90s Shrek is a little bit more state and a bit
limited in what it's going to do and it will do weird stuff.
I do think we can criticise it for that because that's where TV
was at the time, you know, like, sure.
And we love we love it, you know, but I'm glad that when it came
back, you know, now, we get something much weirder.
I'm glad that they have the capacity to put, well, 5 now, 5 very
different Star Trek shows out.
There is a Star Trek to suit every person.
Whatever you want.
Do you want fantasy?
Watch discovery.
Do you want something more serious?
Watch Picard.
Do you want something that is kind of a little bit, kids, go watch
prodigy?
You want to laugh your head off or watch lower decks?
Strangely worlds.
And then we'll have.
Well, you want something episodic?
there we go Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I think it'll be a bit more serialised than that because I don't
think you can do just episodic anymore.
I don't think we could ever have something like Star Trek the Next
Generation.
And you wouldn't want it.
That thing where they just forget what happened to them last week
every week.
I think is a bit stupid.
This is awful, isn't it?
Like, they've aged the actor down to play, like, this, it's like a
kid, but they've stuck that guy's CGI head.
You'll use it.
You said you wanted weird.
I know, absolutely.
But the dying mother, like it was a radiation burn. that's what he
looks like With big eyes.
But the mother is like, that's super upsetting.
It's like quite horrible and now we're going to see the cause of
the burn.
And the cause of the burn is someone who is just completely
isolated and we've had isolation versus connection all the way
through.
And so if it's going to be an accident, it's an accident that ties
into the theme, not just of this series, but of this show.
I was, I was kept waiting for another twist.
I was like, no, no, it wasn't, it was really the Romulans
screaming out for his mother dying.
But actually, this is where, yeah, the ship swoops in and courses
the back.
No, genuinely what's that?
Yeah.
I mean, it's the state.
It's unique.
I don't like it, but it is distinct.
But I just can't imagine a space reasons thing that would have
been more satisfying.
I think I need to, I really want to go out and see what the
reaction was.
And for once, I very rarely want to go onto the internet and see
what people think.
But this is so I can imagine divisive.
I don't yeah, I don't know.
I don't know.
Like I said, I thought it was a weird, strange, unexpected choice
but rewatching the 3 parter over the last week just sells me on
it.
I think it's exactly what they should have done.
And what else can they do?
I think once once it's a villain doing it, then we have a regular
villain and that's not what this show wants to do.
They're kind of like...
But that's what, oh, yeah, I'll keep comparing this to 90s. that's
what 9 Trek was doing all the time, wasn't it?
was terrible things happen.
It was one of our major powers involved.
The Touchiar or whoever, you know.
There is an anxiety around power sources in this show.
And I, well, not just dilithium.
Remember that the emperor had a big galaxy destroying power
source?
What's the parallel?
They want nuclear energy?
No, I think that there's stuff about fossil fuels and fear about
dependency.
So remember that we depend on a small number of countries for most
of our fossil fuel and the whole thing about that creates
anxiety.
There's all sorts of diplomatic stuff.
I think that's absolutely here.
I think explicit changes in forming this.
No reading.
But there's scarcity around power.
And, you know, the whole point is there's no dilithium left or
very little dilithium we've run out of dilithium.
And we've been put in a situation where dilithium can't be safely
used because it will create a, you know, a galaxy destroying
cataclysm.
How are they powering their ships now then?
So they are using dilithium.
There's a bit of dilithium, but not very much, and the dilithium
scarcity gets solved here because it's a whole planet.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah.
So going forward, is that just basically going to be, well, we've
got dilithium now.
Let's go.
Well, in fact, the 1st the 1st scene of series 4 has book and
Michael bringing dilithium to a very, very impressively weird
looking planner.
It's a great scene, a really good action scene that's properly
funny.
Well, now I've seen this.
I should probably watch series four, you know, and keep going.
I'm really enjoying it.
There's one thing that we're not enjoying whilst we're watching
this and that is the music of this episode.
And I think I think the music, you are right.
Music across the board in Kursman Trek is extremely...
Oh, there's soundtracks, because I think I'd quite like to get
some soundtrack.
Yeah, there are.
I have to buy that.
And there's a piece in a minute and I actually messaged you and
said, my God, there's something I've actually enjoyed.
And that was where he goes to turn the hologram off and it's like
a, it is very fairy tale.
It's like this very light, playful piece of music as he goes to
put his hand down on the thing.
And I felt something because of the music, not because of the
content, really, not because of the writing, but the music.
Mate, it made me imote.
Yeah.
I think I think the music is astonishingly good.
And it's something that 90s Streak is generally very bad at.
Um, and, well, you know, like with the odd notable exception, uh
we've said before that 90s trek music is mostly to tell you where
there's a commercial break.
There's more diversity. and there's just more emotion in the
music.
Oh, no, it's better.
So this is Jeff Rasso. who does the um the theme as well.
But they've also had Michael Giacchino, who created the, um, theme
to the Star Trek, um, you know, the recent 3 Star Trek movies sort
of reason.
And so they have good composers.
And I just think the music is stunningly good.
So does Saru look after this man child now then?
Is that where the series goes?
So he's a regular.
He's not a regular, and but he does turn up, and you've seen the
end of this.
Saru goes back to Kaminar with him, which is what his mother asked
for in the hologram.
And we do see Saru re-engaging with Kaminara as well.
Oh, okay.
So is he there permanently in series 4?
Or is he?
No.
So he does come back and he becomes the 1st officer.
And because he's a captain as well.
They tend to call him Mr. Saru, which I just think is spectacular
like Mr. Spock. it's so good Oh hang on a minute.
Hang on.
I think I think we, oh, have I completely missed a bit where
they're all kind of given each other dough eyes because they've
all...
They're like the family back together.
Yeah, I love that, though.
A bit much for me.
I love I love seeing Michael Shake.
There are some things that like I thought that the end of series 2
was too weepy and that series 2 leaned into... yeah, yeah.
It really annoyed me.
But, you know, Michael, like Sanequa is an incredible actor and
has the most beautiful smile.
She lights up the screen.
Here we go.
She's disconnectionally charming.
That's how this future began.
One moment in time that radiated outward, though, until no one
even remembered the connection was possible when him.
See when I say it, it's even worse.
We've got these slow motion shots of them all connected.
There's Detmar connecting with Oo.
Look at them.
I mean, there is such a thing of subtlety, right?
You know?
Yeah.
But, you know, like...
This I can buy.
We want to see it.
And you know what?
There's, there's, there's a, there's a wonderful, I said this to
you in, forget me not, about burning.
This is.
There's a wonderful kind of relaxed warmth about her in this
season.
And I said to you in a message, she's way better this year.
I really like her this year.
And if nothing else, they've turned me around on that.
I still don't like the fact that she's the captain because I want
Saru back.
Yeah, and look, here's um, here's our trill woman from Forget Me
Not.
She's come back. to uh, yeah, yes, shake hands and rejoin the
federation. as ever.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Forward straight from equilibrium.
And here's the lady from Navarre.
See, I I really enjoyed this last 10 minutes.
And it felt like we were stepping off.
Look at that shot.
It's beautiful.
It is.
And it felt like it felt like we were heading into an optimistic
future with the show, you know?
We just had to get over the end of this tedious arc to get there.
Oh, sorry.
I mean, this arc was about that, wasn't it?
It was about concentrating that down into a fairy tale and getting
these negotiations to play out.
This is Lieutenant Sahil.
He was the man in the 1st episode of series 3 in the 1st shot who
was by himself.
Yeah, that scene was waiting for the Federation to come.
And that's why this is called that hope is you part 2 because
Michael came along, met him, gave him hope for the Federation, and
now here he is.
She's joined the federal.
Put all those episodes in between.
The 2 two, the 2 episodes.
I think calling I think calling the Navarre episode unification
part 3 is cheeky.
No, if you want cheeky.
It's those lower deck tiles.
What is it?
We'd always have Tom Paris or something.
So good.
But do you know what as well?
This gives me hope.
Because look, what we've got in these last 10 minutes, loads of
people standing around in space rooms.
Yay.
Yay!
That's right.
That's what I always wanted.
It's a beautiful shot too.
I think they're doing the thing that they must do on the
Mandalorian where that's not, I don't know.
Maybe it is keyed in afterwards.
But, you know, is it playing on a big screen?
That's Admiral Van.
I really want to fuck him. you know, he's beautiful.
He's really handsome.
Yeah.
Sorry for saying that, but he's true.
No, it's a thing.
Yeah, I think he's terrific.
And I love that he's a regular.
I love that there are people here.
And the way that he's warm to Michael.
Like, I have objected to this episode a fair amount.
But I'm not saying the building blocks of this city.
I think going into the future was a great idea.
I think rebuilding the Federation is a great idea.
I think that going forward, they could do some really interesting
things.
I'm not sure they did it in the 2nd half of this season, but going
forward, they absolutely, the potential is there, you know?
Yeah.
Well, I'm really enjoying series 4, which is on at the moment.
Is Georgia back?
Terribly interesting.
No.
And there's some more upsetting issues.
We need an arsehole in this show.
Every, what, what?
No, no, no, it's fine.
Okay.
No one's dead.
Oh, okay.
I thought you were going to tell me something tragic then.
You do need that.
Like, she brought something to this show.
They're also bloody nice.
Well, she was the Garrick of the show, I think.
Yeah.
But whenever, you know, if in the end of this episode where
they're all giving each other doe eyes, she'd be the one walking
around, she'd be stabbing the odd person.
Yeah, yeah, she'd make fun of them.
Yeah, she shoots someone in the head or something, you know, like
too much lovey-dabbiness.
I love too, the fact that the future gave us the chance to
reinvent our Star Trek looks as well.
Yeah I like that.
And it, and it, and it, I know we've said this before about how
you know, what's discovery going to look like original pre
original trek technology.
Yeah.
It's never going to happen, but this gives an excuse now. that
doesn't isn't going to upset all those, you know, those cannon
meisters.
No, I like upsetting those people and I'm sorry that we can't
think anymore.
Terrible.
But look, look.
Oh, I love her.
Reno, I think she's great.
Oh, actually, she's the asshole now, isn't she?
Yeah, yeah, she's terrific.
She's underused.
She's only in just a couple of scenes.
I don't think she even gets a line in this episode.
We don't see enough of her, but she is magnificent.
There's a reason for that, isn't it?
I swear I read an interview saying that she don't need done a
little bit for a reason.
I don't know.
Oh, look in that eye, that shot of her braided hair.
Oh, no, I don't know.
Look, I'm all looking up itself.
Congratulatory.
Well, they're in these uniforms.
These sexy new 31st century uniforms.
Do you think, I think, no visible zippers?
But you think they came for that sort of plumber look, that
Enterprise did.
They're all gray, you know?
No, no, no.
They're not one piece suits anymore.
I mean, they had the one piece suits.
Let's fly.
Look.
Smiles, she's so beautiful.
And the music here.
The, the, the, the, the Trek music.
Yes, they just...
Well, in fact, they just do the original trek music for the
closing credits. like just a redone version of it.
The splash as it goes through that force field.
It's so weird.
It's so great.
I'll tell you what was good about.
Series 3.
Oh, another good thing.
The thing I really objected to in series 2 was all of that kind of
deep dive into nostalgia and all those old characters and blah
blah.
It actually gave them a chance to be completely original, didn't
it?
And that was really refreshing.
And basically rebuild Star Trek, post, what would it be?
Post-nemesis?
Or post Picard now, wouldn't it be?
Yeah.
Well, see, what I think is that setting discovery in the 23rd
century around about the time of original trek was an attempt to
recreate an original trek for an entirely new generation of
people.
So Star Trek is central to the Star Trek experience, the original
series.
They didn't want to set it in the 24th century where there was a
lot of standing around talking and everything was a bit more
stately.
And they wanted to set it somewhere familiar where the recent
films had been set and so on.
And the Klingon war gave them an interesting story to tell which
resonated with politics and had things to say about, you know
federation ideals.
Those interminable scenes sound in the high world.
Oh my God.
I actually like that.
I'm sure you did, yeah.
Their job is to make the Klingons scary and alien after they'd
been just your friendly uncle who was into ZZ top or something.
You know, like it made them frightening and they were properly
frightening.
You're trying to say that Gower's eyes weren't frightening.
They were from...
But they're a bit too cuddly, you know, and a bit too familiar.
And if you're going to bring them back, you want to make them as
scary as they are to the Federation.
Excuse me, I can't remember any of those Klingon characters from
Discovery Series one.
I'll never forget Gowron.
As long as I, that's true.
But we did have many years of Gaur on, and they were decades ago.
We've sat with Gala for most of our adult lives.
Oh, no, girl.
But that's that's the other thing too.
The thing that absolutely thrills me is that we have new Star Trek
and it's trying to do new things and it's virtually on every
week.
And it's been so long since Star Trek was...
I do think there's a potential to oversaturate this, though.
Like, if they just keep, if they just keep, and like, Picard's
coming to an end after three, and I think that's probably a good
thing.
Like some of these shows should be finite.
Discovery maybe should run to 7 or something like that. you know
and then, but if they, you know, keep trying new things, things
like that.
But like we said, it is like a selection box with really different
flavours and you can absolutely dip into those different flavours
which is really fantastic.
But another thing as well, I really love about series 3 is it
takes all of those things that we recognise from, like, for me
from 90s trek, and it absolutely reinterprets all of it.
The Federation, all those matters, trill.
Do we see Vulcan?
Navar.
Is that what it's called?
Mount Navarre.
Oh, yeah, yeah. because the Romulans are there too.
So it's giving it's giving a fascinating new slant on like tired
basically tired cliches.
And that's good.
Yeah, and it's centring the idea of what the Federation is about
and that it's about connection and it's timely, I think, uh, in a
world that's becoming increasingly fractured and isolated and
suspicious, particularly in America, that is becoming increasingly
suspicious of, you know, international cooperation and stuff like
that.
I think it's, you know, in Britain, like you've Brexited.
And so that, you have to bring me up, honestly.
But do you know what I mean?
It's, you know, it's a world where that message is timely and
should be heard.
And I think that more than any other iteration of track.
This has a very, very conscious political purpose and a real
proper understanding of what that whole ideal is.
I don't want to call it the Roddenbury ideal, but that utopian
socialist, internationalist ideal.
It's so interesting.
Isn't it that we've done in the Palm Moonlight, followed by, what's
this episode called?
Uh, that hope is you part two?
Because I think our personal like favourite iterations of Trek are
there and they're doing very different things and yours is
completely leaving it.
I'm not even going to call it the Roddenberry Idol, but I don't
think that's there.
The Star Trek ideal of, you know, like unification working
together, a better future.
Whereas in the Power Moonlight, basically saying, war is shit.
We've got to do terrible.
We can't do that.
In order to, you know, in order to get through it.
And it's given both of us the opportunities to kind of set our
stall and say this is what we love personally about Star Trek.
All right, so it's time for us to choose the Star Trek episode
we're going to watch next time, and it's your turn, Joe. What
series are we choosing from?
Okay, so I have just pulled up the randomiser and I have selected
4 shows at complete random.
So yes, that's right.
The original series.
I'm talking about that.
The next generation, because why not?
Yeah.
Voyager, because we love slagging things off, and lower decks
because we've only done one of those.
Okay, that sounds brilliant.
I'm up for any one of those.
Are you ready for this?
good.
So just let me drop the URL, which is untitled Star Trek project
com slash randomiser. for all your random Star Trek needs.
You never need to go to your shelves and just stare for an hour
sell spread. or whatever.
Yeah, can I just tell you something?
Like I heard the other day on random trek.
I was listening to some old episodes.
It's not as random as you might think, you know.
If you think we're not random, they select a series sometimes.
Yeah, I know, honestly.
Anyways.
Okay here we go.
Okay.
So our 1st random episode is Star Trek Voyager, series five
episode 25 Warhead.
Is it about a warhead?
I think I remember that. about a bomb.
That takes on the personality of the doctor, and it's one of those
rare doctor episodes is really terrible.
So we don't want to watch that, do we?
We don't want to see Robert Picardo being awful.
No, he wouldn't be helpful anyway.
It's now selected.
Episode 6, series 13, virtuoso, which is another one of those very
rare doctor episodes that's terrible.
It hates Robert.
You remember that today?
Where's the opera planet?
He goes and teats things opera.
Oh, come on.
And they're all like And he becomes famous and he's horrible to
everyone.
They're all little people with squeaky voices.
It's really terrible.
Okay, let's go.
Okay.
Oh my word.
It's the visitor.
It's Star Trek Next Generation, series two, episode nine, the
measure of a man.
Oh, we have to do that.
It's good.
We can't roll again.
Can't we do another classic?
So we're going to run out of classics.
We haven't done any...
Oh, no, there's 830 episodes.
We'll be fine.
Well, I'm so sorry, but I'll press it again.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Oh, we got another.
Okay, this is probably the ultimate next generation classic.
Okay.
It's Siri says Episodes 25 and 26.
All good things.
Let's do that.
What do you reckon?
Yeah, let's do.
Come on, yeah.
I didn't see that. haven't seen that for years.
No.
Yeah, me either.
Wow, that's really good.
Let's do that.
A finale is what a series finale.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's awesome.
Brilliant.
I'm there for it You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek
Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley.
You can find us online at untitledstar trekproject.com where you
can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 22nd of February 2022 and
released on the 25th of February.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek the Next Generation, for
good things.