Hey, Joe. Hi.
So today we are back in the distant past, it's 2017, October 2017
and we are about to watch the 3rd episode of Star Trek Discovery
which is called context is for Kings.
And you might remember that the 1st 2 episodes get screened one
immediately after the other, one on CBS and one on CBS for
access.
So this is kind of the 1st regular episode.
And it's the 1st time we say Discovery.
We're inclined not to like it.
Oh, we're at this point because they've just killed off cousin
Michelle.
So we're not in a good mood with Discovery at this point.
No, although I have to say, I think I've said this before, that I
was pretty much sold from just about the 1st moment, the bit where
Michael goes off in a sort of EV pod and clambers over a Klingon
asteroid thing, because it just looked so different from what I
expected.
And, and, you know, this is sort of 21st century Star Trek, but
enterprise finishes maybe 12 years before this airs.
It's not as big a gap as it seemed at the time.
What you mean, it looks different.
It's because I've jettisoned all the greys from...
But it just looks magnificent.
It looks so interesting.
It's so different.
You know, it's great having a kind of, it's not a complete, um, a
completely new production team because we still have Brian Fuller
who wrote like 20 episodes of Voyager.
Some pre-dismal scripts.
A couple that we've covered already.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
He wrote Coarse Oblivion, remember?
His record is not stainless.
No, but he did do.
I mean, we did the Raven, which is pretty good.
He did Living Witness.
He did Bride of Chaotica.
He did Barge of the Dead.
This is so good.
Yeah, yeah, that might be the best script he ever did, actually.
Yeah, I've got a theory.
Oh, God, did you think of Buffy when I said that?
I've got a theory.
That the reason why so many people struggled is the reason why you
didn't.
And that is, I think they were pre-programmed to accept a version
of Star Trek.
There was a lot of people pontificating in rooms, gray rooms.
And, you know, the odd moral dilemma, the odd, the sort of phase
of battle and things like that.
But nothing that you would call visually striking or if so, rarely
so.
And then they came in, obviously, special effects have come on in
a decade and they're going to throw as many pretty and amazing
images at you as possible.
And I think just for a lot of people, this just wasn't Star Trek
as they recognised it.
And I think Fandom with Discovery went 2 ways.
It was those people that just abandoned it because their
preference was 90s trek and those that embraced it and went on the
journey with it.
And, you know, it's a hell of a journey.
But my big surprise coming back and watching this is I think this
is my favourite iteration of discovery.
And I think it's messy in all kinds of ways, and I will talk about
it in this episode.
There's so much that they don't get right.
But what appeals to me is that this is quite edgy and it isn't
comfortable viewing at times.
And again, I think that's probably what pushed a lot of people
away because they, I loved, you know, what is it, a fine ship, a
ship shape crew, space problems, you know, that sort of thing.
We're not doing any of that.
The ship comes along here in the 3rd episode.
The crew is not assembled into any kind of family unit at all.
It's so dysfunctional.
Everyone's kind of ugly at this point in all sorts of various ways
ugly or not quite formed in the way that they would be in the 2nd
year.
Yeah.
No, I agree.
And I think, you know, because people as well look to Star Trek
for an optimistic vision of the future.
Not me.
But people do, and I do.
And that here is simply located in Michael Burnham's character.
And she makes it clear.
Just her.
And so there's there's a reference to Alice in Wonderland here
which comes up later, but she's fallen down the rabbit hole into a
world that is weird and off-putting.
The incredible thing about Alice in Wonderland is that the fantasy
world it creates is actually not very nice.
It's nasty and weird and unpleasant.
And that's where we are here.
And it's the result of the war.
It's going to a place that Deep Space 9 goes.
What happens to us when we're at war?
And what this does, I think, um, because the sequel to Alice in
Wonderland is through the Looking Glass, we have this happen again
at the end of the series, a few episodes from the end of the
series when we actually go into the Mirror Universe, and it's like
discovery only much worse, like much scarier.
And so we...
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, look, it's it's really too...
Do you think Emperor Georgio, you know, and a whole ream of men
around are fabulous.
That's right But I think what's happening, and I think I may have
said this before on the podcast.
I think that what we're getting here is a kind of mirror of
American politics after 911 and the Iraq War and Afghanistan and
that kind of thing.
And so America has been at war. you know, ever since then when
discovery comes out.
And then we get Trump.
And so we get this sort of weird escalation where the founding
values and like that's a sort of contentious term, but where
Starfleet's values at least have kind of been abandoned and
they're really ostentatiously not here.
And the way that this season works and you have to get through all
kind of 15 episodes of the season to get to the end, the way this
season works is, of course, those are the values that prevail.
We're given the chance to the war by destroying the Klingon home
world and we don't do that because that's not what we would have
done it.
I would have pressed it.
No, but we do something much better instead.
No, we'll go, yes, we're Starfleet.
We're a lovely family.
Oh, vomit.
Yeah.
And then we do that all next year as well.
It's so much less interesting.
I think next year does a whole bunch of things that seem like an
apology tour for this year.
No, watching this now.
It's clear.
That's what next year is Because they go out of their way and
obviously we've done that episode that you and I battled over, the
penultimate episode of series 2 with the, you say not, but I say
protracted sequences of goodbye between this family that's
breaking up for the last time.
Um, God, it's unbearable, I find, all of that stuff in this, and
poor uh, Saniqua.
Balling her eyes out every single episode for about 10 minutes and
it's like, no.
What happened in series one?
Look at that.
A ship of secrets.
That's what I kept messaging you.
I love it.
We land on Discovery and immediately there's a crew there.
No one's sort of treating her nicely.
I mean, the security officer, we will get to her.
But clearly Lawker's got loads of things up his sleeve and he's
dissected bodies in his quarters and all sorts and it's like, this
is so much more interesting than just doing a forgive me, a wank
job to TOS, which is what we get in the 2nd series.
But I have to say that that it's Star Trek, and you tune in for
Star Trek, and I think that that's the original series.
No, it doesn't have to be the original series, but I think it does
have to be Star Trek.
And there are other darker visions of the future and stuff like
that.
I think that this is interesting in that it does comment on
contemporary politics and it kind of tells us about what people
are like when kind of push comes to shave, but it is still that
kind of utopian vision that characterises Star Trek.
It just takes us a while to kind of get there.
And I like that.
I just think this insidiousness is delicious at this point.
And and and it is a peak, I think, into a different version of
this show. and I think that's to show Brian Fuller wanted to make
because he's out by the middle of this series.
So we don't actually know how this series would have panned out.
And I think you think it would have panned out in the way it is.
I'm not sure Fuller was going into the Mirror Universe, you know.
No, no, I think it has to end with the values of the Federation
being reestablished at the end.
I wonder sometimes why I'm a Star Trek fan, you know.
I don't buy into any of this.
Yeah, but like I think that that's a hugely important thing.
Like, it's not the tech.
It's not the techno babble, it's not the spaceships, it's not the
latex.
It is that vision, I think.
Did you think no?
Index.
Did you think like, you know, all those fans that were affronted
by all the visual sumptuousness and dynamic action that was in the
1st 2 episodes?
By the time you got to sort of 2 thirds into this episode?
Michael Burnham is crawling through Jeffrey's tubes and up and
down ladders and they must have been going, oh, thank God.
Yeah, we're hacking. 90s trek again.
And doing references to Alice in Wonderland, the sort of thing
Picard would say, you know, references to literature.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And but that's an interesting character thing and it is commenting
on the rest of the episode.
Like it is very clearly, you know, Michael's fallen down the
rabbit hole and she's now in this strange mirror universe.
I mean, you know... to see when we go back to these early episodes
of how the respective series is form?
Because I think TOS hits it out of the gate.
TNG takes 2 years to get it right.
DS9, I think, starts really strongly and then takes a year to sort
of find its groove with its characters and its crew.
Voyager, I think, absolutely nails it in its 1st episode and then
forgets entirely all the things it learned there.
Enterprise takes about 4 years to get it right and they're just
about getting it right towards the end with the characters and the
storytelling.
Whereas discovery, man, you just can't put a pin in where they get
it right because it evolves so much and the crew changes from not
just season to season.
Sometimes within the seasons, we lose regulars, we gain regulars.
Like, you know, the most consistent characters in discovery are
the 2 on the bridge that last all 4 years.
Detmar and Owo. 2 most consistent characters.
They actually kind of disappear midway through series.
There's just not another trek show like it though, but I really
found it interesting coming back to this and seeing these
characters unformed because Tilly is nowhere near what she
becomes.
I think by the end of the 1st season, Saru isn't is still a good
performance, but he's still he's not quite the Saru I recognise
from sort of series 2 onwards.
Stamitz was the only one who came in.
He was a total cunt from his 1st line and I was like, yep, there
he is.
But I think Stammets undergoes a thing where he just seems to be
obnoxious, but there is also that incredible kind of enthusiasm
for the science and the resentment of the way that Discovery's
been kind of commandeered and taken off him by Lawker and turned
into a kind of laboratory for war stuff.
You know, remember while we watched that doctor episode recently
interstellar song contest, you know, and I'll said to you about
how, oh, wow.
Yes.
And I said to you, oh, those 2 awful, lovey, dovey, hideous gays
in it.
I just can't bear them.
Stabitz is like my antidote to that.
A total bastard from the off, you know, goes around insulting
everybody, but he's super smart.
He's in a wonderful relationship with a man that has sort of bumps
that you can absolutely buy into.
I've had bumps like that in my relationships.
I think he's a great character.
And I think he's the one here that works from the off of all of
them.
Yeah, he gets so comprehensively owned by law cream that one scene
though.
And as for Lawker, I know, you said to me in the chat, but like we
were never going to keep Isaacs for more than like, you know, two
thirds of a season.
What a shame because he is such an asset to this show.
We know that this was the setup for a one season story and that
Fuller's original plan had been to do a completely different story
every season.
And Discovery does land on that.
But what they decide is that we can't invest this money in the, the
sets and models and things. and assemble a group of actors and
then throw them away at the end of 12 months and do it again.
And I think that that's probably a reasonable call.
I would have loved to have seen that though.
Just to see how that would have looked. go into different periods
you know.
I mean, there's been 5 different shows.
We technically have, if you just watch all the 1st series.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, of course, Discovery does do the thing.
You know, the thing that makes it different from strange new
worlds isn't just kind of the tone and atmosphere, but also the
fact that the season is the main unit of storytelling as opposed
to the episode.
And both of those are good, interesting things to do.
It means, though, that, you know, dipping into discovery is like
dipping into Picard or um, it's not always as easy as it could
be.
These I found really easy to dip back into, though.
One, because it is the 1st superiance of the 1st superi. introduced
to all the crew for the 1st time or some of them anyway.
But because as well, there wasn't really a huge amount of plot
here.
It was a protracted series of character scenes with an action
sequence in the middle.
And I said to you, that's not a problem for me because that's sort
of 90s trek, isn't it?
Lots of too harder scenes, but they're good to hander scenes, I
think, or the best ones are really great.
I think too, they're more than just, you know, we're finding out
about the characters.
Like the scenes are all doing something as well.
It's not just, here's what this person is like.
There's a change in the relationship between, say, Tilly and
Michael.
There's a change in the relationship between Burnham and Locker.
Obviously, Burnham's decision to join the crew at the end is kind
of interesting and takes us a while to get to.
We learn a little bit. very funny that, wasn't it?
Do you remember when Saru's sitting there?
watching the ship zap off through the window in the mess hall and
then no suspense at all.
The next scene, she's there, walking down the corridor towards the
mess hole.
I was like, okay, we're not even going to pretend that she's not
on the ship.
No, but remember that that's a very clever scene because he says
that she's dangerous and as the ship leaves, his ganglia or
whatever are coming out the back of his neck because he senses
danger.
So in some sense, he's aware that she's not on the shuttle that
she stays.
How what those are?
Ganglia.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Very disturbing, yeah.
If Frank started emerging from your head while we were talking.
Yeah, that probably was.
Pulse, frankly.
And of course, we already had the relationship between Saru and
Michael in the opening 2 parter.
And so when we see it this time, It's gone somewhere quite
different.
And I think that Saru, if you were to watch him in episodes one
and two, you would say, yes, that's him. he is fully formed, but
here a character thing has happened. and he's grown to distrust
why, you know, because she has been, she's the fool guy for
everything that went wrong in one or two.
And so, you know, he's understandably cross. you know, Giorgio is
dead after all.
But I'm just so used to him being empathetic towards everybody
kind of regardless of what they have done.
So I was like, okay, so they're not quite there with him yet.
But I can see potential with every character.
And I know that the potential is mostly realised with all of
them.
So yeah, the building blocks are here.
I just love how messy it is.
I just came away feeling a bit dirty going, you know, oh, this is
Star Trek for me, you know, it's not perfect, but yeah, it's a bit
edchy.
The other thing too is what you forget is how mysterious it all
was to us, like who is law car?
Where is he from?
Yeah, wonderful.
Who is Ash?
Like, Shahzad Latif gets credited in the opening credits of this
week's episode.
He's not in it and he's not vogue in it either.
So he's neither of his characters are in it, but we didn't know
that he was folk.
He'll turn up in episode five.
I got a little bit too Game of Thrones shocky though, didn't
they?
They got a bit carried away at times, you know, when they killed
off Colbar.
That was a bad idea.
Oh boy, why did we do that?
I mean, it's a great shock moment.
It is a great moment, but it is.
And you know, and it ruined 2 characters in one because it's like
well, how do we go back from that with Ash?
and also we've lost gold.
But like, what are you doing?
But it is Star Trek for streaming, right?
And so it's the 1st time they're doing this.
They're doing long form storytelling.
They're doing long form mysteries, you know, and I think for the
most part, they pull it off.
It is a weirdly messy is the right word, I think.
It's a weirdly messy year, this.
But I think probably as interesting for me as discovery ever got.
So yeah, I was quite impressed.
This is my favourite or 2nd favourite season.
I think series 4 is magnificent.
Um, but very different and this, you know, I just fell in love
with this immediately.
And I still enjoy going back to the ship and seeing all of those
people and seeing the look of it.
And, you know, strangely worlds is a little bit more polished and
a little bit kind of more sure of itself.
And the mess is one little bit more Star Trek as well, isn't it?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Although it can be very violent.
Yeah, yeah.
This does become Star Trek.
It does.
But it never becomes quite a Star Trek show in quite the same way
as NextGen or Strange New World or Voyager.
I think anything will ever be more Star Trek than Strange New
Worlds, you know.
Kirk, Tyke, Spock, Nurse Chapel, space problems.
Jesus Christ The enterprise, yeah.
Yeah, it's pretty great.
It's literally called Strange New Worlds.
Yeah.
But today, we're down in the sewers with Discovery.
Yeah, it was pretty exciting.
Let's do it.
Should we go and get mucky together?
think we should.
Okay.
It's a shame though, you know, because security officer. so
annoying.
I was hoping this was the one where she got eaten, but it was next
week.
I would say...
No.
Oh, there's a reason, though, right?
It's not a great character.
Anyway, all right.
Okay.
All right, here goes. 543, two, one, and we're off.
Okay, so this is previously on.
Oh, there's your show.
Oh, yeah, gosh.
I'm not going about hair quite a lot, but later on, Sanequa's hair
is just so fabulous.
Why have they made her look so mousey in this 1st series?
Yeah, because like she's sort of Vulcan.
Like, she's got her hair all sort of ironed back on board the
Shinjou and...
Do you not remember all those gorgeous dreadlocks she had in the
last series?
Gorgeous.
Yeah, with their braids.
They were braids, not dreadlocks.
They're beautiful.
I mean, she just looked magnificent.
But look at these ships.
Just look at how imagic that bears Takuvma. awesome.
My God, it's like watching the menu more fabulous.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
With money.
With action.
Now, that's not too bad now, come along.
We've done some of those space battles.
They look a bit cartoony to be fair.
Oh, look at that harsh light there.
Remember the drumhead room and look at that room?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We've come along a bit, aren't we?
Well, just the lighting and stuff is just so much more interesting
and so much less even than stuff. insane in the shuttlecraft
right?
This is literally a scene from Blake 7, which is the, you know, the
anti-Star Trek, where they go off at the start of Blake 7 in a
prison ship because they've all been accused of various things by
the evil Federation.
And that's this scene.
I never thought we would see this with the main regular crew
member of a Star Trek show.
Okay, so these people are credited in the closing credits as stone
cold, and psycho.
Psycho, you say?
Psycho.
That's what the woman is called.
His mum didn't like him very much.
No, no, that's what the woman's called.
So the Spanish guy with the shaved head, the who's a kickboxer and
stuff.
He lives in Canada. recognise him.
Has he done some acting elsewhere?
Yeah, he has.
And then the guy in the middle was in series 5 of Discovery as a
Breen character, um, called Locke, um, who, uh, like he's properly
brain, you know, like he's got sort of proper makeup and all of
that and they're liquid.
We get to see the brain in series 5 of Discovery and they manage
to do it without ruining them.
It's pretty great.
I just think this is astonishing that we're opening the 3rd
episode of a new Star Trek show with the central character in
handcuffs on the way to a penal colony.
Like, they would never do anything like that before or again.
No.
And this.
So, you know, she goes out.
She goes out to deal with the infestation and stuff.
Michael knows what's going on.
And then just the incredible kind of random shot of her just out
the window.
Like, It's pretty, it's pretty bleak, isn't it?
Oh my god, yeah.
I mean, she just flies out the window like she's just out the
window.
It's just like, fuck.
Oh, does she go?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I loved in a minute, right?
They do this sort of, I say, point it in the camera.
It's a special effect shot up at discovery as it's coming over the
shuttle grass.
It's hero shot.
First, look at discovery.
Oh, to be fair, they did used to shoot the Enterprise D like that
from below coming out of the camera.
Not all that often.
Like that, isn't it beautiful with the light coming behind it and
things?
It just looks stunning with the tractor beam is literally taking
us away because it's coming straight out the camera.
That ship is so weird.
Like, it's definitely a Star Trek ship.
You wouldn't mistake it for anything else, but just the geometry
of it's all so weird. and the fact that it's sort of burnished
bronze rather than gray.
You love it.
It's exposed backside.
And the little hole when the shield opens up just to let the
Charlotte.
I mean, they do that on Enterprise.
It's like Star Trek, the motion picture, now we're going round and
round.
Lovely.
A bit faster than the most...
Let's be honest, yeah.
Somewhere, sorry, a bit more detailed as well.
Oh, this lovely music.
Yeah, isn't it?
This is such a strange new world is still my favourite, though, of
all of them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just because it has like, you know, that, da, da, da, da.
That bit, yeah, it gets me very excited.
But look at this beautiful art as well.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know why, like, quite why we do it like this.
It's kind of like the idea is that we're redesigning Star Trek for
the 21st century and so it's all blueprints and like design
ideas.
Do you know what I mean?
As if we're kind of aware that this is a TV show and we're having
to design the future again?
It's an odd, it's an odd thing to do because it doesn't seem to
represent anything about the actual show itself.
I just imagine like long, long behind the scenes conversations
about how this had to look, the tone of it, everything, you know?
Yeah, because we just redoing it, like completely redoing it in a
way that hadn't happened.
We had, you know, how many seasons, 18 seasons of Star Trek with
no real proper reevaluation of how it should look.
What fascinates me about discovery, my own reaction to it, because
I really hated this when it came out.
I just loathed the 1st 2 par and I was really struggling right the
way through that 1st series.
And I'm wondering if it's doing untitled Star Trek Project and
watching so much other trick and realising how terrible all that
is compared to this.
I've been able to completely reevaluate my opinion on this 1st
series.
And no, no, I think I've put my finger on the sort of Star Trek
like now.
And it's this, but it took me, you know, you do change your mind
on things, but you go on a journey with these things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
What happened to the rest of them then?
She obviously gets absorbed into the crew.
Do they just head off back to the painal Connelly again?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, we never see Psycho again.
Psycho and Cold and Stone all go off.
Here she is from Battlestar Galactica.
What's her name?
Security chief.
She's Landry.
Landry.
Dreadful character.
Right?
Because this is shocking.
Like, I think it's quite shocking because she says something.
She calls them garbage, and then later on in dialogue, she refers
to them as animals as well.
And like that's really wrong footing.
That's even before Lorker comes along.
Something is wrong on this ship.
Um, and I think it becomes clear during the season that it's it's
law car, is promoting people like this and encouraging this kind
of behaviour.
And I think, you know, this, the title of this episode context is
for kings is really telling as well, and we'll talk about it when
we get there.
I mean, if you think she's one note in this episode and she is
Landry, I mean, in the next one, they literally make her such a
bully throughout the 2nd episode, um, just so that moment where
she's eaten, she's like, punching the air going, yes, you know
she's gone.
Look at this.
So this Detman was on board the on board the Shenzhou, right?
So this is our seeing Detma.
That's her meeting Detma. and seeing the injuries that Detma
suffered in the Battle of the binary stars, like that brace on her
head and the shaved head and stuff, which is her look for the rest
of the show, that's done to her in that.
And so having that moment, which that's all she gets to do this
episode.
And obviously she becomes an important part of the show.
The 1st 2 years, I think, you know, she had to guess a line in
series three.
Yeah, there isn't really that much.
Very strange.
I mean, she was very loyal to the show given how much they gave
her to do.
We have done this before. so her walking in and everyone looking
at her with absolute disgust.
That's exactly what happens to Tom Paris in Caretaker when he's
walking Voyager and everyone's giving him filthy looks.
And I like that about caretaker as well.
I like that about Tom Paris that he had that checkered history.
So, so we have the 1st reference to Enterprise here in the
dialogue because Landry...
Landry identifies that as a Vulcan martial art, and then it gets
named by Michael, and that's the Vulcan martial art that to poll
uses in Enterprise series 2, episode 6 marauders.
So it's our 1st enterprise reference.
Can I just to bring us back to Landry for a 2nd?
Because there isn't much to say about.
I just want to make this point.
The actress who plays her, play Tory in Battle Star Galactica, an
extraordinary character that in the last season goes on an
incredible journey from, you know, likeable age to the president
to the biggest bitch on that show as well.
And fuck, like, it's a bit of a shame because she's a really good
actress and this is a thankless role, I think.
I think this is just deliberate overcasting.
Do you know what it means?
Should they get someone in who has done a big role in another
genre thing?
Okay, Isaac, she's a regular.
I was going, well, I'm going to watch that now.
Because I remember when I heard Isaacs was in this, I was like
yeah, I'm on board.
He's really great.
He's so good.
He's so sexy as well.
Oh my god.
He gets very sweaty.
The more evil he is.
The hotter he is.
When he's stamping that guy's head in that episode.
No, when he was surrounded by all the corpses at the end of this
episode, I was like, was it hot in here, you know?
Oh, Jimmy Law a couple leaves.
He has a treble on his desk. that open.
He does, yeah, at the end.
Yeah.
I mean, we're not in Kansas anymore, Dorothy, are we?
There's a gone skeleton in that room as well.
Yeah, they try to do it in Picard.
It was a good moment in episode 2 of series 2 of Picardo, all the
skeletons of people, but this was more shocking because it came
first.
Well exactly. that's right You can't dissect a trible from the
best comedy episode of TOS.
What are you thinking, Brian Fuller?
Well, they made it for me. some more, Brian.
Come on.
I'm just perverse when it comes to Star Trek.
Yeah, a bit.
So the, I mean, the other thing too, which is kind of, which is
cool is that he's just lying to her and she knows that he is.
And so this is the captain of the ship and he's a prick already.
He's like upsetting.
And look at her reaction to him as well.
Like she just doesn't get it.
Yeah, she's like, this is not my world, all right?
And I realised I did bad things and you think I'm desperate for
some kind of approval and career that I'll do any lengths of what
you want to meet your evil aims, but I am not that person.
But also, I think too, like there is something about her wanting
to punish herself that she deserves this for the mutiny.
And remember...
We should get over that then.
Because eventually she just embraces her role as, you know, centre
of the entire universe later on in the show.
Well, main character in the show, right?
And then the captain.
Um, so, so, I don't know, like, it doesn't last very long, I think
and it is basically partly the story of her kind of, of, um, moving
beyond that, um, but she, she thinks she should be punished and is
just prepared to, you know, go and continue her life sentence.
It's another odd approach, though, right?
Because, like, I've seen Sanequa in series 3, episode one, where
she's high as a kayat laughing a red off and just the most
charismatic presence on the screen.
I mean, what's this?
She barely looks up in this episode.
I think she's really compelling though.
We're very, very good.
But it's an odd approach, right?
To start your show.
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I guess, you know, seeing her at her lowest and then watching
the inevitable kind of rise, you know, where she, you know, like
the show, I think they overcompensate a bit, though, they make her
a bit too, too important by the end of the show.
But like I just think that that's not a complaint for some reason
that we make about Kirk and Picard.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, even though they are also the main characters and the
most...
Yeah, they're the pricks of their respective shows as well. let's
be honest So here is Mary for the 1st time is Tilly.
Always someone smiling.
Hurrah.
You know what I love about her?
And I don't, I don't want this to come out.
I love how she is a little weightier than you would expect in Star
Trek.
She's got spots on her face that they've covered up with
Foundation.
She's a redhead.
She is not your typical Star Trek babe, okay?
But she's sexy as hell because she smiles and she's got energy.
There is just an energy about her that you, and she's not formed
here either because I said to you, she comes across as someone
with ADHD in this scene. she just talking 10 to the dozen about a
1000000 things and they're making her as eccentric as she can
possibly be.
That's the idea right?
Like she snores and she has allergies and um, you know, she says
something about having special needs and stuff.
But it's only episode 7 that we see her at the party wanting to
come off with a song.
She much more form there, isn't she?
Yeah, yeah.
But, you know, eventually she becomes Captain Tilly.
Scourge of the 7 seas or whatever it is, you know, Tilly, I
think.
For fuck's sake. wonderful.
And I think come like series 3 series 4 when she's in it.
She's just one of the best characters.
Do you know when I realised they'd figured her out perfectly was
that scene where she sings with Stamets in the 2nd series.
They sing, is it the Beatles or something like that?
I can't remember He's trying to calm her down so she can achieve
something and they just sing a Beatles medley together.
It's gorgeous Well, you know, there was the episode where she sort
of says farewell in the middle of series four, which we actually
rolled and decided not to do.
But we've come a long way from that purple blood in the air in
Star Trek 6, haven't we?
liquid hanging in the air.
Actually, even archer at a moment like that in the shower when all
the droplets sort of froze in the air.
But it all looked a bit like quicksilver.
That actually looked like water.
We decide not to really go with that, but apparently that's
something that happens whenever we jump and we don't know what a
black alert is.
We've never heard of it as Star Trek.
We can't away from it usually, you know, it does happen for the
rest of the time, but we just, yeah, we can't wait for those
scenes.
Yeah, they don't they don't dwell on it.
It's like Janeway fiddling with her badge, you know, it happens
every week.
Oh, look at all the crow looking at her.
Jesus Christ, I thought Starfleet was about acceptance and loving
people.
This is what a war does to you, you know, it makes you very
unpleasant.
I mean, this scene is amazing.
The way that Saru walks.
You know, just hit the, like his gait is so strange.
So camp, isn't he?
He's so much taller than her.
Like, he's twice.
I've not seen a walk like that since Wayoon, you know?
But on Mimsy Walk.
When he's not got something in his hands, you remember that his
hands move side to side behind his back as he walks, like he has a
very strange walk.
It's such a great makeup job as well.
Like, it's not just, you know, I think the makeup's nothing
without the actor and the body language.
Oh, we've seen great makeup jobs where people have stomped about
looking really awkward before, you know?
Remember those Ferengis in the last outpost?
Yeah, but this is Doug Jones, you know, who's made a career of
doing the prosthetics and stuff like that.
I still shudder, you know, no matter how nice he is as Saru
because I can, in my mind's eye, I can still see the gentleman
gliding past the window, grinning whilst Christoph Beck's strings
are in my ear.
Oh my god.
They're like so scary.
Has he done lots of horrors then?
I think so, yeah, yeah.
And he's also the fish that they have sex with in shape of water.
I like this scene so much.
Like, I like this scene so much.
It's about Giorgio's death.
And like, it's just like, she never thought she would ever see him
again.
You know, she just never thought she would ever see him again.
And here they are.
And like they're properly serious and he's not inclined to forgive
her easily, which I like, you know.
We've come a long way from Tasha's death, haven't we?
Yeah, we're doing the funeral at the end, and then we never
mention it again until 3 seasons.
Oh, I suppose Chad Cia that informed the whole season.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But I like that.
I like the we feel her absence. that's why it's so satisfying when
she comes back as, you know, evil.
Evil, space lesbian.
Bisexual.
Wow, yes, yeah.
They're all, they're all, you know, they're all into both sexes in
the mirror universe.
But, um, easily the best thing to ever come out of discovery is in
your show.
Oh, good.
Yeah, just one.
And that much needed dose of edginess in the later years.
Yeah Now what's happening here?
Oh, this is where we are reporting now.
A wonderful scene this.
Yeah, see, all these 2 handers are great, aren't they?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But this stammets, this is firstly Tilly though.
As well.
Do you remember, like, like, she tries to, um, seat herself next
to Tilly's station until he lies and says, oh, no, we have
assigned stations, you can't be here.
And then she apologises for it later.
I think that Tilly is nice.
Yeah, but everyone else is horrible.
Awful.
Oh, I see.
Just you find a... that was me in there.
Even if I'm killed, 8000 people.
I'd say, oh, I love.
Get over yourself.
You only work at that console, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
She goes, what's this all about?
This stacious chamber here.
What technology are you working on?
I told you it's a ship of secrets.
Yeah, it's great, isn't it?
What are they hiding?
So it's a, so it's a tardigrade, is that what makes the ship spin
eventually and go off into...
It doesn't survive long, does it?
It's only in like 2 episodes.
Because it's another thing too.
Now they're torturing an animal in order to make the spore drive
work and they have to decide not to do that.
Okay, I will say, all right, I do like this dark underbelly of
Star Trek.
That is my limit, though.
Alright.
Torturing animals is off the cast.
No.
But I mean, that's what they appear to be doing.
And it is a sort of primitive, like it's a big scary monster, as
we saw, but the reason that like brings it on board. my celial
spores.
I don't know, it's magic.
And eventually, obviously, um, Stammets takes that role on when
they get when they let the Tardigrade go.
It's worth mentioning that, you know, because, you know me, tender
people goes in one era and out the other.
But I remember the words mycelial spores.
Yeah, it's very strange.
That's the other thing too.
This is like not a thing that we've had in Star Trek before.
So the mushrooms, like literally spores cause this strange
interesting scene, isn't it?
when you see all the spores coming from the mushrooms.
It's not in this one, is it?
It's later on.
Oh, is this one?
Yeah, because she goes...
I watched her this morning.
Yeah, yeah.
So we we see that.
And of course, when Lorker shows her the drive in the final scene
or, you know, towards the end of the episode, she's in that fish
tank full of sort of glowing spores.
Like, in no way, yeah, if I was on this ship, in no way would I
want to be Culpa's friend.
He just too nice, yeah.
Whereas I would be desperate to be Stammets's friend.
He would know all the goss on everyone, you know. so horrible.
Like that's not where we land with him, though.
And I think like he...
He still has an age stories.
He can be unpleasant.
But I mean, what's really happening here is that he resents
Lorker.
Like, he resents what's happened.
And we get it.
We get it here because this is his partner, his research partner
and he later says, when the war started, because of you, Michael
Burnham, when the war started, we were split up and we were put on
board these ships in order to aid the war effort, you know, um, and
so having, you know, what he's really, what he really cares about
is being perverted by Lawker, and that's why he's insolent, like
openly insolent to law.
I like it.
And I like an actor that is willing to come in and be this
unlikeable from the off because I don't think you get it an awful
lot in American shows or even if they're written as unlikeable.
They try and put in some charm.
So it's...
No, he just comes in. horrible to her in this scene.
Walks out, like you said, he blames her for the war later on.
There's really, like at this point, there's no great redeeming
moment for him in the series.
And it did take me a long time to warm to him.
But then I just realised I like hanging out with bastards.
So now I love it.
I mean, I think that he's, he's, he's, um, this is so funny.
Tilly dribbles in her sleep.
Do you see the dribble on the pillow?
snores, she snores as well.
That's so...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, do you not remember seeing all the people in 90s track
asleep decorously?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uncomfortable beds that they sleep in.
That's how she gets through the biometric.
Look at all these lovely spores.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's very strange, isn't it?
I love the subtitles.
She gasps softly.
Water trickles.
No, no, but it's doing something that I've seen quite a bit in
science fiction movies and that is, you know, the forest in the
middle of the ship.
Yeah, yeah. gorgeous.
Yeah.
Oh, here we go.
Captain Norca.
Gosh, discovery looks beautiful.
Can I can I say, though, I was disappointed that Lawker turned out
to be like an evil alternative universe version?
Just because I was so interested in his character.
And to me, that was sort of the laziest exploration as to why he
was a bad boy.
I just like the idea of a really bad captain.
Yeah, but I think that the, I think, though, that the Mirror
Universe is kind of like our end point, like where we're heading
towards in this.
And so that's the role it plays kind of thematically in the in the
story.
And so he has to be from there, I think.
But like your show proved that you could have somebody from that
universe as a regular in the show and it worked like gangbusters.
I don't know.
I just don't want to lose him.
No, she's a comedy character mostly, though, isn't she?
Like, that's kind of that's what they do.
I love it round the table.
She's like, oh, are you done?
But I don't think you could do that with Lawker.
And I think that you want Lorca soundly killed at the end of it.
Like that's actually quite cathartic.
But you have like, you know, Garak's a semi-regular and he's
emerged.
He's a murderer.
I just think I think they could have found a way.
If he wanted the work, you know, but he doesn't need the work.
He don't need Star Trek.
No, but he's horrible.
Like he's like got a real personality disorder and he's a real
kind of fascist asshole.
Like he's a bad person. say, Ducat is puffies and roses, you
know?
I mean, he's funny and genial and everyone loves him and stuff.
Do you know what I mean?
Like he's, he's, you know, he doesn't, like all of his stuff, his
backstory and stuff.
We see him do bad things, but not really.
You certainly, you know, you can't imagine a scene where Garrick
just stomps someone's head and kills them, which is...
Yeah, but you would never do that.
It was that great episode where he's got to unleash the quantum
torpedoes on the founder planet.
Don't tell me you, Mr. Worf, you'd object to a little genocide in
the side, in the name of honour.
But like all of that stuff is.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, and part of the problem with Garak, is that he, you know, and
that's one of the things that they address in Empoc Noor, is that
he becomes a little bit too much part of the family, I think, and
that's irresistible because just of the child...
Well, the show does as well, doesn't she, really?
Yeah, well, that's right.
She becomes a comedy character in the same way, but I don't think
you can do that with law, calm.
She's just there to punish the balloon of sentiment all the time.
It's so, oh my god, I breathe a sigh of relief.
Every line she gets.
So good.
So now we literally are doing a 90s Shrek episode, so we've
established that there's a ship we need to go to, right?
And in a minute, we walk around.
It's a dark ship, tumic terrible's happened.
There corpses everywhere.
We've done this in TNG a couple of times, you know, Voyager, stuff
like that. gruesomely, isn't this?
We go running around Jeffrey's tubes and up ladders.
So, you know, I do think there is a nod here to the trek you sort
of expect.
And he's still Star Trek.
It still has to be Star Trek.
I mean, this bit is about 10 minutes long.
So one thing that I want to mention is that the shuttle pilot is
the same actor who plays the communications officer later.
So in about episode five, um, and so let's just say it's the same
person.
It's Bryce, who is the communications officer and is on the bridge
for quite a long period of time.
He becomes unavailable during the show's run and he tends to
alternate with Christopher, who has the same role.
People have days off, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
That's one of the things that I like about this too, is that
because she's not the captain.
She doesn't have a relationship with the bridge crew.
And so they're not the people who are important in her world
because she's the main character here.
So refreshing.
We don't get to know the bridge crew.
And that's, you know, they walk away from that a little bit in
series too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I do like that.
I mean, I like the bridge crew as well.
And I like the crew, they sort of settle on.
But I don't know, this is this is more interesting.
Yeah, I think so.
It's a more interesting look at a side of Star Trek we don't
usually get to see.
Yeah, it's we don't ever really get to know any of them very
well.
They are kind of scenery.
I mean, in in a real way.
I mean, they do start throwing bones to Detma and Owo.
They do get moments in those later seasons, which I think the
actors must have been like, oh, thank God, you know.
How long do I have to see it pushing buttons before I get a line?
they're both great as well.
I mean they are both really good.
But, you know, Bryce and Reese and stuff.
We see them all the time but we don't really get to know them.
I mean, this is wonderful.
Look at this.
You never would have done this in TNG.
You constantly see that ship getting closer and closer throughout
the window as we're going to.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It looks so good.
It's out of focus in the background.
It just looks stunning.
I think even for the time.
This is ambitious.
You know, yeah.
I just remember I can't think of much.
I mean, had we had we'd had Battlestarcle Acts, couldn't we?
I mean, special effects in that were pretty extraordinary as
well.
But yeah, but I think this is more detailed and clearer and
staff.
And I think the combination of those effects with live action is
pretty amazing as well.
Like, I do like the music in discovery.
I do think it is, obviously, it's a step up from 90s trek all that
wallpaper.
Um, I don't know, but then when I think of something like Bear
Acreary's work, About a Star, it's just not a patch on that app.
No, or like Mark Snow in the X-Files, you know, they're kind of
alternative.
Christoph Beck in Buffy, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. movie scorer.
I forgot.
I mean, I tend to listen to...
Yeah.
We thought we saw the worst in the Gorn episode of Strange New
Worlds.
This is a load of mashed up bodies.
Yeah, so something has happened to the geometry of the ship.
They talk about there being spiral kind of patterns on the outside
of the ship and all of these people have been kind of twisted and
torn apart. wonderful.
Now, we did try and do this.
You laughed a lot when they did it in Voyager.
Do you remember that in Scorpion, where they had all the bulk
heads and things, all as a big sculpture?
And you went, oh, that looks so terrible.
But now they can do it realistically now, but they cut away
quick.
So you could see the horror, like there, look, all those horrible
bloody limbs.
But and all that tomato sauce everywhere.
But they cut away very fast. that's probably a good move.
Yeah, yeah. don't think Star Trek wants to dwell on any of that
sort of staff.
But and like this is very standard, isn't it?
But just it's atmospheric because, you know, again...
They're loying it like a movie, you know?
It has the style of a movie.
And you don't have to see everything.
Like it's okay for the characters to be indistinct. you know what
I mean?
Everyone's hair and makeup.
This happens on Buffy in particular, I think.
But on Star Trek, the Next Generation, everyone spends so much
time and makeup that we're going to fucking see them the entire
time.
Do you know what I mean?
And so having flashing lights in the background.
You know, the camera's not, there's, it's steady cam.
Things are out of focus, you know, like, I think they do get there
in noise track with the atmosphere, occasionally.
Like, do you remember the episode, the ship with the upside down
Gemadar ship and it's all dark and it's all spotlit throughout the
entire episodes?
And that zombie one of enterprise where they're on the ship and
that's pitch black apart from strobe lighting coming in and things
like that.
So they can do it.
They just do it from the off here and they do it all the way
through.
Yeah.
And so this is their only Klingons as well.
So Klingons got on board the ship. afterwards.
So they're not all kind of, I think they say braided. was the term
that they used to describe the other bodies.
They've just been torn to pieces by the Tartar. anything like that
since the last time I went to the butchers, you know?
and took a look. took a look at his pork chops.
Oh my word.
Did you see it?
was like shredded.
Yeah, yeah But look at Tilly with the gun.
She's absolutely fucking selling it.
She was so mousy and sort of things, but she just says, come out
of the shadows, you know, like she absolutely kind of owns that.
And that lighting, there, that strobe light, and that Klingon
looks amazing.
Yeah, I think it's not a Klingon.
What is it?
Oh, no, he's just been eaten by the Tardigrade.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, I look at this thing.
It's so great, isn't it?
Hulking great blobby monster.
Yeah.
Running around the corridor.
It's great.
And they run because they've got long corridors, so they can
actually run.
You and me would be fucking spreading right away.
Yeah, I know we're out to seek new wealth and new civilisations
but if that thing was coming after us, it would run.
It runs, you know, it's got that sort of weird bear like gate.
It's amazing.
It's so good.
That camera shot through 2 holes there with stabbits inside the
2nd ship. amazing.
Yeah.
Although I did say to you in a message.
Apart from this one sequence.
Oh, the camera work was blissfully stately in this episode. barely
moved at all. very gracefully went around the rooms, you know, and
I could see people actually acting.
It was wonderful.
Oh, look, and that's his friend.
That's his friend.
He's all been braided.
Prated.
Yeah, that right. word, isn't it?
If you've got to do horror, find the right adjective, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's pretty good, isn't it?
So they've used the tartar grade because they're doing much better
at black alert, like they're travelling much faster and further
than discovery is.
But this goes wrong.
Um, And so they're taking take back.
Yeah.
So beyond sort of establishing the, I'll keep saying it, a ship of
secrets, I can't say it very often, beyond establishing the crew, I
think the other level this is working on is, yeah, we can do a
traditional Star Trek episode and execute the fuck out of it.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I think that that's broadly the remit of Star Trek, Strange New
Worlds, is doing the kind of the Trek staples, but doing them
incredibly well and, you know, with modern sensibilities and
modern storytelling and, and, I thought they're, they're sort
of...
And was like, what if um, what if we created a Star Trek anthology
show where you like every single character and you don't care who
gets the spotlight this week?
Unlike Voyager, whereas he is... playing a game of poker. to do
that.
So this is not very hard.
So this is her doing the Alice in Wonderland thing and they talk
about it in on memory alpha, but what they don't talk about is
that this is her describing her experience this episode.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, like, she was on the Shenzhou.
It was the season finale of Shenzhou, because she'd been on the
ship for 7 years.
Do you know what I mean?
It was like the big two part finale and it all goes horribly wrong
because war breaks out and the captain gets killed and now she's
not in a traditional Star Trek show at all and she's being chased
by a horrific monster down at Jeffrey's tube and stuff.
It's like Alice in Wonderland.
Wow, well, let's do Alice in Wonderland more often then, please
and start.
That's why but that's why we do through the looking glass at the
end of the at the end of the season, you know, because that's the
sequel.
We have done that before as well.
There's literally an episode called Through Looking Glass, yeah.
In fact, doesn't Kira say at the end of crossover?
Where have you been?
Through the looking glass, commander.
No one goes, how the fuck do you know about that?
Like, you're a pajoran.
Yeah, that's right.
Well, so there's a character bit too. of course, because we know
that she is the adopted daughter of Sarek.
But here she mentions Amanda and her brother and that Amanda used
to read them that.
Uh, and and it also is just, incidentally, there's Arium as well.
You were always a good officer until you weren't.
Until you weren't.
It's good, isn't it?
Ouch.
It was almost touching then until you thrust the blade into her
heart.
But, well, he's not he's not blowing smoke.
He's not glazing it.
Do you know what I mean?
Like he's just telling the truth.
It's like delivering a shit sandwich assessment.
He went, yes, you were always an asset to Starfleet until you
weren't.
But look at her response.
Like, it's so, she's so beautiful.
I know, but I just want to, I want to see her rise up from this
now.
Yeah, yeah, of course she does.
You will.
But just watching her, like just giving her the opportunity to act
and you know what she's thinking, she just does such a good job of
her.
I just love that this very serious scene has what a triple on the
side of it.
And he's purring the whole time.
It's her the whole time.
It's great. isn't it?
It's still Star Trek.
And Chilly's vivisected, of course.
Right?
So good.
They should have gone further and had it all sort of struck out
washing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, like the psychopath.
Oh, yeah. do you remember?
Do you remember them all piling up on it about that shit window?
And what?
You're developing some sort of spore-based biological weapon.
Okay, we're back in Star Trek again.
Yeah, but it's not true, is it?
Like, and that's what gets her.
She is interested in the science in the way that Stamets is and
she knows that it's not a weapon.
So she's okay with that.
And now she gets to be the part of something.
And there's this weird scene because you have Saru who understands
what she did and disapproves of it and he, she, he's honest with
her.
And now you have Lorke here lying to her and saying that he
approves of what she did.
Um, and he says, and it's the, it's the, um, It's the, the title
you know, one of these rare ones where the title is a quote from a
character, he says, um, universal laws are for lackeys and context
is for kings.
So ordinary people just have to obey simple moral laws, but people
like you and me don't have to do that.
And he's a fascist.
You know, he's a horrific person.
Oh, I think he's wonderful.
I mean this is great.
This is basically you and me.
Star Trek fancy.
She's going, I uphold the laws of the Federation and the United
Federation of Planets, so he's going, you never mind about that
far more interesting my way.
Come to the dark side.
Yeah, great scene, a wonderful and well acted as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I just really like as well. how she just susses it all out.
She's like, I know I know why I'm here.
I'm mutine here.
I'm ex-Starfleet.
I'm very useful to you and you think I'm needy.
You think I need this?
Yeah.
I won't be the person you want me to be because I uphold those
values.
Yeah, yeah, the federation values are all here.
They're embodied in her.
So this is an incredible scene because, of course, this is just
let me show you the universe and let me show you what you're doing
and that sells her.
And now please watch how she's matted into these locations, all
right?
And compare it to Chevok on Vulcan last week and persistence of
vision.
I mean, you still, it's still a very obvious special effect, but
it is very beautifully done.
Yeah, the details.
I mean, a decade, you know.
But look at the fairy dust.
You know, like we're seeing Lorca through this cloud of spores.
I'm not sure I'd want to stand there in a cloud of spores.
I did worry about that.
I think I'd be sneezing.
Do you get hay fever?
I do, and particularly from fungus. and look, the cloud's getting
thicker.
Yeah, yeah.
And so it doesn't work properly yet.
And so we retrieved the technology from the glen and then we're
going to retrieve the tardigrade.
And remember they had to go on board the Glen to get the
technology because it was in a shielded spot, but the tardigrades
escaped so they can just beam it straight off, which is what we're
about to see.
So then they sort of, um, the tardigrade and the spores and all of
that.
And this is why from this after this episode, is that right?
It can do the weird spinning sauce, I think, and beam off into
various parts of the universe. wherever.
He just said it was just in 100s of kilometres, the jumps so far.
I remember your reaction at the end of 2 when it's like, we will
never talk about this technology again.
Please put it in that secret draw and the Space Pentagon.
I will never mention it.
That's right.
Please, like, as if they would give this up.
Come on.
Yeah.
But like we said, that is the one of the flaws of discovery is
that, you know, they want to do amazing technology.
They also want to set it pre-TOS.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So the places that we see, um, I think that the last one, so
that's Andoria, but just that, like, it's so amazing.
But I think the last one is from Devil in the Dark.
Ah, don't you think?
The minding planet.
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's a modern take on that.
It strikes me as something this era of track would do.
Of course they would.
Christmas not here, is he?
Was he already involved?
Oh, okay, then definitely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I don't know where that comes from.
But I mean, we had the Enterprise reference in dialogue pretty
early on.
Fuck Nathan, his eyes.
Isaac's eyes.
I mean, I mean, I was basically writing poetry to you in the
thread. his eyes were like piercingly beautiful.
But there's like a sadness in them as well.
I mean, that I think your eyes, as an actor, is a real weapon that
you can use.
And Isaac, man, he's got the best weapons there.
Yeah, it looks amazing.
He's got beautiful eyes as well.
I mean, she's stunning.
I just can't wait till they sort of...
Let her grow her hair out.
Yeah, relax a bit, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
Sanequa, you've got a lovely smile.
Why are you wasting it?
Yeah.
Well, we get to see plenty of it in the later years and that's a
good thing.
That's a fortune cookie there, right?
Yeah.
No, he said he had a family business a 100 years ago, his family
did, fortunately, because he offered her a fortune cookie later.
Now he gives her a fortune cookie and she takes it.
Oh, look, zoom out of the ship.
Did you see that?
Oh, I bet you was impressed. wonderful. absolutely what you want
to say.
What sort of team?
I'm very British.
So what tea is he, Duncan there?
That looks a bit like sort of peppermint to me.
He's pouring a lot of sugar into that.
Wow, yeah.
Do you know what?
Because when you dunk those teas, right?
They always smell nicer than they taste.
You need to add a bit of flavour.
So that's the scene where he realises she's not on the shuttle.
He sees the shuttle go and his gang clear out.
He knows she's still aboard.
Look at Tilly's crazy like Whitney Houston hair hair.
It's like she's put the volume eyeser on and they've had a power
surge.
She is so beautiful.
This, I love this scene too.
This is their making up.
You know, Michael was absolutely not willing to become friends
because she knew that this was not going to last, and this where
she admits she's going to be captain someday, and she looks like
such a screw up with her allergies and her, you know, worrying
about what everyone thinks of her and all of that.
And this is her apologising for being slightly mean to her in the
in the in engineering, you know.
I think it's just so vital because you could very easily, given
her 1st scene, think, you know, she's just going to be the Barclay
character, the socially awkward one.
Whereas here, you know, like you said, she's learning, she's
developing.
We got a smile from Sanequa?
Where she goes, oh, is that a book?
And then Sonika gives the book to look at.
She's never used a book.
No one reads a book.
But she just looks up at her and smiles.
Not that big broad, beautiful smile, but just a slight smile.
It's just lovely.
And this friendship is really nice from the entire rum.
Yeah, Tillia Burnham. one of the best I'm so glad she's back full
time for series four, five.
So she's not in the 2nd half of series four.
So we don't miss her for too much of it.
And she's...
She have another job, the actress?
No, there was a pregnancy, I think, at one point.
I'm not quite sure.
I'm not sure.
Oh, they decided not to put her in medical robes and hide behind
consoles and things like that.
Okay, fair.
Oh, listen to her dialogue.
Snuckers are bugging a rug.
The sooner you're eaten, the better.
That's such a weird, that's such a weird thing to say.
Mind you, there was a liner, occasionally the lines are a bit pony
on discovery.
Stammets went, oh, hello, non-Vulcan number cruncher.
I was like, what is that line?
Look at all these.
Oh, that's a Kardassian bowl.
You saw one crawling across a darbo table.
I swear it's the same problem.
It's a Cardassian It is a Cardassian bowl.
It mentions it in memory. doing with all of these.
I think he's cutting them up, you know.
Oh this is great.
He puts his hand on the thing.
It's like, hello, hello, my beauty.
Kitty.
Here, kitty, kitty.
Yeah, kitty, kitty, kitty, kitty.
Isn't it amazing?
Oh, look, don't leave me, please.
You are too good to let go of.
It's now intriguing.
It is.
It's a ship of secrets, Nathan.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And we've never done that before.
We have never done that before or since.
The ship is always, you know, where the family is, the place of
safety, where we solve the problems.
It's never the mystery itself.
Yeah.
It was a great move, I think.
I've said a 1000000 times in this episode, I can understand the
pushback against it because we just don't do this in Star Trek, but
people embrace difference.
It's really great It's intriguing.
I mean once there's more than one show.
I think that like this is an odd way to bring Star Trek back and
an off-putting way to bring it back.
And I really liked it.
You know, I really liked that I was intrigued by it.
I was seeing things in Star Trek that I'd never seen before and it
just looked amazing and like just the quality of the cast as
well.
Strange New Worlds, which I love a lot, and I think is a very
successful show, is still stuff that I haven't seen before, but it
is very familiar as Star Trek, and I think it's only okay because
it's just one of the shows that we're doing.
So this was an odd thing to bring back as the Star Trek show.
Once we do spinoffs, that lets us be more adventurous, I think.
I think where DS9 came along, people said exactly the same thing.
This is a very odd thing to do alongside the next generation
Strange New Worlds, or like a stationary place where everybody
argues with each other and there's a political system erupting
that we can't get away from and things like that.
But like DS 9, I think that's probably why discovery is A, the
most interesting.
If not the most successful, the most interesting of the Kurtzman
tricks.
And B, the most interesting to talk about because you can't quite
put your finger on it.
And that's fascinating, I think.
But especially in these in these early dirty waters.
I love it.
Yeah, it's pretty great.
You know, more bastards in Star Trek, please.
Less lovey doviness.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to
find out where we're going next.
I picked this one because it's Star Trek Discovery, and so it's
your turn, Joe, what series are we doing?
A very important pick. you know, because this is like justice last
time.
You know, the weight on this episode, because yes, listeners, we
will be together in person watching this and then doing our
commentary on it afterwards.
So, um, you know, unfortunately, there's only one place I can go
because it's on my bucket list that you and me watch an episode of
Deep Space 9 together in person.
It's all I've ever...
Have we never done that?
No, we've never done it.
We watched justice together.
Mark still has nightmares about that man being oiled up.
Do remember?
Good grief.
No, no, no.
It's my favourite show.
You are my favourite person.
I mean, the chance to bring the 2 of you together in my living
room.
All right.
It's too much.
After, of course, we've danced together to the Enterprise theme
tune, which we've also promised to do.
So, all right.
Well, let's give it a go then, all right?
I know we've done a lot of DS9. but I don't care.
I love it.
It's fine, you know?
Okay.
Oh, this would be quite fun, but I'm not going with the 1st one.
Your random Star Trek defence 9 episode is season four, episode 20
shattered mirror.
It's going through the looking glass. ironically enough. let's
keep going past that.
Oh boy.
Season one, episode nine, the passenger.
Not at all, gentlemen.
I've been expecting you. so bad.
It's so bad.
Poor old Sid.
It's his worst before.
No, he got better.
He did yeah. bless him.
Oh boy. talking about pretentious titles.
Wrongs darker than death or night.
Oh, yes.
I think we've rolled that recently.
I don't think we could do that one, you know.
I don't want to sit there and watch Kira's mother.
He's forced into sex slavery. whilst you're right next to me on
the sofa. very awkward.
Yeah, all right.
Okay.
Oh.
Ooh.
Oh, can we do another season 7 episode though?
Oh, this could be really fun.
We like Esri, don't we?
We love Ezri.
Would you like to see Ezra in a procedural detective genre episode
where Geran, the evil serial killer is the person that she
consults?
Yes, more than anything.
Well, then, Field of Fire, season 7, episode 13. the episode for
you.
Now, this is the one that Robert Hewitt Wolf, who ditched the show
to go on and do more important work at the end of five.
It's the only script he came back to do.
Fazali.
This one.
I mean, I kind of love this.
Yeah.
It is sort of pony in all sorts of ways, but they really go for
it.
They really go for the serial killer plot. so great.
She's got this massive gun and she can see through walls and shoot
people and be bullets into rooms.
I mean, it's just wonderful.
Imagine giving Nicole an enormous gum.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I want to do that.
I'm looking forward to seeing that.
I want a way to go. but yes, awesome.
Well, head to the sofa then.
Come on, let's go.
I'll be right over.
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project
com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social
media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 19th of August 2025 and released
on the 22nd of August.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Deep Space 9, Field of
Fire.
I really enjoyed it.
Yeah, it's so good, isn't it?
Look at this.
The butcher's knife cares not... for the lamb...
Fuck off.
Oh, come on. are you doing?
magic to make the sanest man go mad.
Oh, that's the one we did.
We did that.
We've done that.
And we've done 3 in this.
We did vaulting ambition, which is just a standard quote from
Macbeth.
That's a standard Star Trek kind of title.
Started off doing 15 today. and then wound up doing 10 by five.
Only the last season is 10, I think.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And I don't think they had originally intended to do 15.
I think they originally intended to do 13 and they just just blew
out to 15.
I don't know, but, um, I can choose the episode for your visit, you
know?
Well, the 1st episode for my visit.
Yeah.
I've been looking forward to this I think I've downloaded
Discovery Series one for the, have I?
Sorry, I sounded like a kid in a playground then, didn't I?
Oh, no, just do this.
And or all of...
Oh, Heartstopper Series 3, Love Victor.
Poker face.
Oh, no, I've downloaded Discovery Series 4.
That's 13 episodes.
Yeah, maybe I should, that's, I must have just decided.
Oh, in Star Trek Prodigy series 2, I've got as well.
A lot of Star Trek.
For the plane.
Maybe for TV before bed when I'm by myself as well, sometimes.
All right, it's the end of the episode.