WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-06 at 22:05:39

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Hey, Joe. Hi.

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So, we're back on Deep Space 9 this week.

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Just a couple of weeks after our last visit, but we're in season four, episode 23.

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So right near the end, and we're watching to the deaf.

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Now, I really liked this episode the last time we did it when it was called Rox and Shoals.

6
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Yes, yes.

7
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It is very similar to rocks and shoals, which is better than this.

8
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Yes, I think so too.

9
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But I thought this was quite solid.

10
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It's not the sort of thing necessarily that I want Star Trek to do all that much.

11
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And I think if I was watching this at the time and I felt that way.

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I was in for a few years of kind of disappointment, probably, because this is where we go.

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But this is a pretty crucial episode, I think, in establishing who the Jem Hadah are.

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And I think it does actually a pretty good job.

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The one Star Trekie thing about it, I thought, was it's us getting to know and understand the Jem'Hadar and them getting to know us in some way.

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And I thought all of that was actually quite good.

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They do a couple of episodes like this.

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They do the abandoned in series three, which is not long after the Jemadar where Odo gets the Jemadar child and he's trying to teach it to not be a Jemadar and fails.

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Then you get at the beginning of fall, hippocratic oath, which is a great O'Brien Bashir episode where they fall out because Bashir wants to help these Jem'adar that are withdrawing from the white because they've broken off from the Dominion.

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And O'Brien's like, no, let them die.

21
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And so we get to know them there.

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There's another examination here and then, like you say, we've done rocks and shoals, which is probably the best examiner. certainly in terms of like riveting drama.

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It's the best examination of the Jemadar there.

24
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Yeah, I mean, it's actually very similar, isn't it?

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Because it's largely about the conflict between the Vorta and the GemHadar, and they're different approaches to kind of the religion, because, you know, the Dominion is sort of a religious organisation in all sorts of ways because the gods are running it, and it's populated by people who revere them.

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And so there is that conflict.

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And I think, I think what's interesting about rocks and shoals is simply that that the vorta wins, that the vorta sends the Jem'Hadar to their deaths, that that doesn't really worry or upset him in any way.

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He's almost skipping amongst their corpses.

29
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That's right.

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That's right.

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And they go willingly knowing what they're in for.

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And so a lot of it is about how they're better than the vorta.

33
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And certainly this episode does that as well, that the gemhadara better than the vorta in all sorts of ways, sort of morally, but it doesn't have the sting in the tail of them losing to the vorta.

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They just kill La Vorta, you know, at the very end.

35
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Funny, you should mention the vault up because obviously the 1st appearance of our Jeffrey Coombs, who, you know, we previously saw as the sleazy Tehran in Meridian.

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And like I said, the end of the last episode, you know, they watched the rushes coming in, saw how good he was.

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Saw the bit where he got murdered at the end and thought, fucking hell, he's a clone.

38
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We're having him back.

39
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But thank God he's in this because, like, he is a refreshing element of camp in this very masculine, very match.

40
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I mean, I've got to confess something to you.

41
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I've started chewing tobacco since watching this.

42
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I've got a gun.

43
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I started swaggering around my house, sipping whiskey.

44
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I mean, all of this stuff about honour and duty and violence and no women and like, it isn't for me.

45
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And I said to you, Mike, there is absolutely, you know, wrong Star Trek fans who like that sort of thing.

46
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And so I am pleased they're cateable because we do get a lot of camp in it's nine, don't we?

47
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We're like, yeah.

48
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I think what was bad about it is that you essentially just have one female character.

49
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We see Kira at the beginning of the episode for contractual reasons.

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In a scene that's quite good.

51
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I think the setup is very, very good.

52
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So she's really good, but she's basically not in it.

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And so it is just Dax and Dax is currently a woman but hasn't always been one.

54
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And so there's that, you know, so she gets to play with the boys, but she is the only woman that we that really speaks in the thing.

55
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And it's just a little bit exhausting.

56
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It's unusual, isn't it?

57
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We've just come from Kurtz on Shrek, where we had our, you know, in that Picard episode where we had a whole array of fabulous women in that.

58
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And DS9 isn't always like this.

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We've talked about DS9 and there's a whole load of female guest characters that come in all the time and, you know, Dax and Kira to get a lot. great actresses.

60
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They get, yeah, they do get, what I did like about thrusting Dax into all of this testosterone is just how easily she navigates it all.

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How sort of witty she is and then she gets all of her usual dax asides.

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But then, of course, she picks up a weapon at the end and she's very adept with that as well.

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I mean, she's so fucking cold, isn't she?

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Yeah.

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I think that she has quite a cool subplot as well with one of the Germadar, which I kind of like.

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Do you remember the line?

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Don't worry, you'll make honour.

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Elder.

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Yes.

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She's kicking the shit out of the gym.

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It's pretty good I think that is pretty good.

72
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So we'll get to that.

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So we have basically 3 Jemhadar who speak and one of them is Clarence Williams the 3rd as a metaclass.

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Checked how it is IMDb.

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Man, he has been busy.

76
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He's huge.

77
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So he was in the mod squad, I think. and he was never not working.

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And apparently LeVar knew him and it was his idea to cast him.

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And I think he's great.

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Like, I think he's properly good.

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I didn't think it was quite as good as Scott McDonald in Rocks and Shoals because I could sort of tell Arc Clarrence was struggling with the makeup a couple of times. like he looks pissed throughout the entire thing.

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But I thought he was pretty good.

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Like even before I knew how famous he was, I was pretty struck by how great he is.

84
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We also have the ever reliable Brian Thompson.

85
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Yeah, that voice, it's the shapeshifting alien from the X-Files.

86
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It's the vampire from the 1st Buffy episode.

87
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As soon as he talks, you know exactly who that is.

88
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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He also the judge as well in a buffy episode.

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He does 2 buffies.

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It gets blown up by a flamethrower, doesn't it?

92
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

93
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Yeah, it's pretty great.

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And he has been a Klingon and he has done some other Star Trek and stuff, but he's like big 90s genre guy.

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And so he's sort of super unmistakeable.

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And I thought he was pretty good as well.

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I was quite impressed as well.

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I don't say this very often with LeVar Burton's direction of this episode.

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I thought he did some really lovely handheld camera work at the start where they're going through all the wreckage of the station.

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He shoots a wonderful scene between Odo and Wayoon, where it's entire close-ups, and it's getting closer and closer to Coombs's face, and he just ain't scared of the camera.

101
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He's staring right into that lens.

102
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And then I thought all the fighting at the end was actually quite for Star Trek at the time.

103
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It was quite well done.

104
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It sort of comes in quickly.

105
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It's lots of rapid shots.

106
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I think LeVar on the side of...

107
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What do we say when it's lacking a bit of pace.

108
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It can be a little stately sometimes when he's directing.

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But I think he's in tune with what they're trying to do with this episode.

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He knows when to give focus to the actors and he knows when, like even just when the Jemadar appear on the pad in, there's a wonderful framing shot of all of them on the, you know, like they do.

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And then Wayoon sort of comes out from behind.

112
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Just hearing...

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Excuse me, I'm the one who's going to talk to him.

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Thank you.

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And he's totally dwarfed by a lot of them. thought he did a good job.

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Yeah.

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So I did read the memory alpha page and apparently it was originally much more violent and they shot more of the fight scene at the end and a lot of it ended up on the cutting room floor.

118
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And I think the instinct to be less violent is the right one in Star Trek, unless they're going to go and do it properly, which they never are, not in the...

119
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The hell did they do?

120
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Do they have entrails?

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No, nothing across the gateway?

122
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Just a lot more deaths and a lot more killing and stuff.

123
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I mean, like that stuff's okay, but I did have reservations about why we were on this mission at all, and because I think that if the Jem'Hadar were to say, no, we're not going to serve the founders anymore, then that's fair and right.

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And a meta clan might think that's bad and that they need to be hunted down, but we certainly shouldn't think that.

125
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And, you know, I know that we're there to destroy the Iconian gateway or whatever.

126
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But it did seem like there should have been some discussion about whether it was okay to go and kill all of those Jem'Hadar.

127
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I think the way you, in a wonderful scene was just, hey, whenever Avery Brooks and Jeffrey Cumins get a scene together, it's gold.

128
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He does stress that, you know, what if they put a 1000000 Gemadar soldiers on all those federation worlds.

129
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So I think that's the reason why we're going after them.

130
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So the Iconian Gateway thing is the thing that makes it work morally.

131
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But in an ordinary situation, I guess, maybe that's what Hippocratic oath is kind of doing, that if Jem'adar wanted to throw off their kind of dominion oppressors, we as Starfleet should be there kind of helping them, I think.

132
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It's where Ross and Shoals does this better because there is a huge debate as to whether they should actually execute those Gemadara at the end.

133
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And do you remember Garak's there going, you know, humans have rules in war, which means you, you know, you're less efficient than you could be.

134
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And Cisco goes, look, this isn't a debate.

135
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Like everyone ships in with their reasons, but enough people are saying, no, we shouldn't do this.

136
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And no one's saying that here, are they?

137
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No, no.

138
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So it's a little bit like, I don't know that rocks and shoals is hugely morally complex, but it's certainly more complex than this.

139
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And this is a sort of jolly adventure tale.

140
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And that's fine.

141
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Like Star Trek can absolutely do that.

142
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And what it brings to the table, though, is the cultural stuff, which I just thought was really great and was just scene after scene of people with incompatible world views talking to one another.

143
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And some of that was very interesting and some of it was even funny.

144
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So I was on board.

145
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I mean, I hope I've got something to say in the episode, but I've got 3 more very quick things to say, because my 3 favourite things about this was one, I think, because it leans into Odo's journey throughout the series.

146
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That, for me, might be my favourite sort of character through line throughout the entire series, a wonderful scene where Wei Yun says, do you want to come back because they are waiting for you?

147
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And he's like, no, no, I'm not coming back.

148
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I just want to end this conversation.

149
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Is that the 1st time we hear that?

150
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What, that he's welcome back?

151
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That, that he might want to go back?

152
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That he's welcome back.

153
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They want him back.

154
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Or do you hear that in the search?

155
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No, it's that two-parter in serious free.

156
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Do you remember when Garak interrogated him?

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He goes, I want to go home.

158
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He's like, yeah, but it's all flaky and horrible.

159
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So we know he wants to, but then we're just about to have the finale where he's punished for murdering one of his own kind of the industry.

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It's just such a great journey that Odo goes on and I think where it ends up is pretty cool as well.

161
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So I like that that's in here.

162
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Two, I just think the structure of this is really good.

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The fact that we have like an exciting opening and then we do like the hustle style right.

164
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This is how we're going to do the heist to get the Iconian Gateway, and then, of course, they land and it all goes horribly wrong.

165
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Like every episode of Hustle.

166
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So I just thought the structure of the piece was really, really good.

167
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And the 3rd thing is, I mean, Jeffrey Coombs.

168
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Just Jeffrey Coombs, who it is really, really funny.

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He's really charismatic.

170
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He's a bit creepy. as well.

171
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And you can absolutely see why as soon as they set their eyes on him in this role that they said, right, semi-regular and then come the last series, almost a regular.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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He is pretty great I love how memory alpha calls him like kind of ret consume as Wayon 4 because of course he wasn't that in the episode at all.

174
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He was just Waoon.

175
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And he is better than Keevan in Rocks and Shoals, but Keevan is also brilliant in a different way, I think.

176
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I think the only water that ever manages to come close to toppling him is that woman attacking the wind.

177
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Do you remember that camp one?

178
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And even better when Kira was playing her again.

179
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We meet 22 water women and they don't really run with it, which is a shame because, you know, we need more great camp women.

180
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Look at how I win in Star Trek.

181
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Well, do you fancy sort of becoming a man for 45 minutes?

182
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Oh my god.

183
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I can smell the testosterone already.

184
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I am going to count us in in that case.

185
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Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

186
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Okay, right, establish the defiant.

187
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Yes.

188
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Where we do spend a lot of the episode.

189
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

190
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It's funny actually, isn't it?

191
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Because, okay, we're heading back to Deep Space 9.

192
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I mean, I kind of like this.

193
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Now, what is happening here?

194
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Oh.

195
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Oh, what's this?

196
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This is super interesting.

197
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So I hadn't really thought about this after watching the episode through, but here is Dax talking about her past life when she's a woman and has a baby and the baby crawls into bed with her and it's absolutely kind of like a female thing and we're about to kind of see her be surrounded by men.

198
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And then this thing about sitting in wharf's chair.

199
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It doesn't quite go how you think it's gonna go, I think.

200
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No, but I am absolutely that person that has my chair in the canteen.

201
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All right?

202
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Oh, no.

203
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That's terrible.

204
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I like the one in the corner where you can see the whole room.

205
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You can see everyone who's coming and going and you can just about hear the gots from every table, you know?

206
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So I get it.

207
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I don't often empathise with warf, but I get it.

208
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Do you notice he went straight for the prune juice?

209
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

210
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I mean, geez, Nate, he must be so regularly about stuff he drinks.

211
00:15:56.700 --> 00:15:59.940
Look at the look.

212
00:15:59.940 --> 00:16:00.720
I know.

213
00:16:00.779 --> 00:16:04.019
But it doesn't quite go how you think.

214
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:04.919
Do you know what I mean?

215
00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:07.019
Because he just keeps himself the same, isn't it?

216
00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:07.620
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

217
00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:15.539
But again, in an episode that's going to be about masculinity in an episode in which Worf gets challenged a couple of times.

218
00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:19.980
Um, you know, it is a thing, I think.

219
00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:21.720
Oh, this shot's amazing.

220
00:16:21.899 --> 00:16:24.539
What, of the upper pylon?

221
00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:25.320
Yeah, I know.

222
00:16:25.379 --> 00:16:32.039
I do remember seeing a review at the time where they went, one of the upper pylons was blown up and they deal with it in 5 minutes.

223
00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:33.120
Are you for real?

224
00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:36.120
It's a great inn.

225
00:16:36.179 --> 00:16:37.559
It's a great inn.

226
00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:39.179
No, the state Akira's arm.

227
00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:40.019
I know, I know.

228
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:40.559
I know.

229
00:16:40.620 --> 00:16:42.840
Oh, here's contractual obligation, Quark.

230
00:16:42.899 --> 00:16:44.639
Has anyone seen my brother, Rom?

231
00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:48.240
I actually really like this scene, actually, too.

232
00:16:48.299 --> 00:16:51.360
Like, he's really, really worried about ROM.

233
00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:54.419
And then, of course, it turns on its head.

234
00:16:54.419 --> 00:16:55.320
That would be nice to him.

235
00:16:55.379 --> 00:16:56.820
Has anyone seen Nathan?

236
00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:58.379
He's over there.

237
00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:00.600
Oh, I'm going to fucking kill him when I see him.

238
00:17:00.899 --> 00:17:06.960
But here's properly concerned for him, you know, like he's worried about how he feels.

239
00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:18.119
There was a wonderful bit of direction there where Kira's given the report of everything that's going on, and then Lavar just takes the camera away from her to Bashir dealing with somebody, but you can still hear her talking.

240
00:17:18.180 --> 00:17:21.359
So there's just lots of chaos, you know, well, I mean.

241
00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:23.460
It's a tiny corridor.

242
00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:31.500
Over 100 wounded, apparently.

243
00:17:31.619 --> 00:17:33.119
We could only say three, three.

244
00:17:33.180 --> 00:17:34.559
Yeah, that's right.

245
00:17:34.619 --> 00:17:38.220
Excuse me, they have bothered to put a girder on the floor, though.

246
00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:42.420
I have done that and they've set these lights to flash, so...

247
00:17:43.859 --> 00:17:44.700
I like how quick this is.

248
00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:46.140
It's like, right, let's get after them.

249
00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:47.700
And then they're on the divine and gone.

250
00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:48.599
I think it's good.

251
00:17:48.660 --> 00:17:49.740
I think it's really.

252
00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:50.400
Yep.

253
00:17:50.460 --> 00:17:52.500
And there's a proper scale.

254
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:53.940
Sorry.

255
00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:56.519
I was just going to say, I really don't like her series 4 here.

256
00:17:56.579 --> 00:17:57.420
Yeah.

257
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:04.019
One, see, one thing is because these are all physical models, you can't distress them.

258
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:09.720
You know, remember when the NXO one was all trashed in series three.

259
00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:12.240
Oh, of Enterprise.

260
00:18:12.299 --> 00:18:16.079
You can't do that here because it's an actual physical model.

261
00:18:16.140 --> 00:18:22.140
And they've only just learned to do that CG thing, which is what they did with that.

262
00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:22.920
What do you think they did then?

263
00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:24.900
They just built an extra pile and blew it up.

264
00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:25.559
No, no, no.

265
00:18:25.619 --> 00:18:27.000
They painted it out of the computer afterwards.

266
00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:28.019
It's really great.

267
00:18:28.019 --> 00:18:29.519
Because you can see it's sort of floating.

268
00:18:29.579 --> 00:18:34.680
Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's pretty good It's not quite as good as what would happen now.

269
00:18:34.740 --> 00:18:35.759
Because it will be now.

270
00:18:35.819 --> 00:18:39.240
This is 30 years old this episode, just bad.

271
00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:42.480
I think I just saw Spock there in the dust from that meteor.

272
00:18:43.619 --> 00:18:45.539
I don't really.

273
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:46.200
I don't.

274
00:18:46.259 --> 00:18:47.519
Oh my god.

275
00:18:47.579 --> 00:18:48.359
So that's it, right?

276
00:18:48.420 --> 00:18:53.700
With bangs straight in and we're promising an action exciting, we're chasing the Jemadar.

277
00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:54.599
Yeah, yeah.

278
00:18:54.660 --> 00:18:55.619
Yes.

279
00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:01.799
So, and, like, I think, I think they do quite a good job with the Jem'Hadar.

280
00:19:01.859 --> 00:19:03.539
So in that episode.

281
00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:05.940
It's the finale of season two, is it?

282
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.279
Yeah, called the Jemadar.

283
00:19:08.339 --> 00:19:16.619
And they introduced the Germadar, and they introduced the Vorta, and that's all we know about the Dominion at this point, or what is it?

284
00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:23.579
Um, they take our the Bajoran colony, which is on the other side of the station.

285
00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:27.599
They basically say if you come back into the Gamma Quadrant, where Lavia.

286
00:19:27.660 --> 00:19:29.880
And that's the threat at the end of the episode.

287
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:31.259
I'm paraphrasing.

288
00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:31.859
You get what I mean?

289
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:32.460
Yeah.

290
00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:35.579
I would love it if they said, well, have you?

291
00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:36.599
But that's very English.

292
00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:42.480
Oh, look, this O'Brien, look, flying through space with his bit of, he's repairing the upper pile on there, look.

293
00:19:42.539 --> 00:19:43.740
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go.

294
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:48.539
It's never been more appropriate, that one special effect shot.

295
00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:54.660
Do you think the other one is that grumpy lady from The Forsaken in the gray universe?

296
00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:55.380
Tesco.

297
00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:55.799
Yeah.

298
00:19:55.859 --> 00:19:57.119
No, not Tesco.

299
00:19:57.180 --> 00:19:58.680
She's an ambassador.

300
00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:03.119
The grumpy lady who O'Brien was delivering all this, all the exposition to.

301
00:20:03.299 --> 00:20:05.940
Oh, God, what was her name?

302
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:07.079
The Petron woman.

303
00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:08.279
Yeah, yeah, not Nila.

304
00:20:08.339 --> 00:20:10.500
She was the evil one that tried to kill Pryal.

305
00:20:10.859 --> 00:20:13.980
So much happens on this station, honestly.

306
00:20:14.819 --> 00:20:19.019
I am pleased, though, that the bulk is on defiant sets.

307
00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:20.460
I do like the defiance sets.

308
00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:21.720
I like how cramp they are.

309
00:20:21.779 --> 00:20:23.759
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

310
00:20:23.819 --> 00:20:31.680
Yeah, and the colour thing, like, it's still mostly that brown colour that the station has as well.

311
00:20:31.740 --> 00:20:33.539
So it still feels of a piece.

312
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:41.039
Yeah, it's tiny, that bridge is so small. admitted a magneton pulse to hire trace of your whereabouts?

313
00:20:41.099 --> 00:20:42.900
Yeah, pretty much all the time.

314
00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:43.559
Why?

315
00:20:43.619 --> 00:20:44.279
you up to?

316
00:20:44.339 --> 00:20:46.559
Of, you know, just some light adultery, usually.

317
00:20:50.400 --> 00:21:05.940
So I thought Avery delivered that line about standing guard over the station 26 hours a day as if it was meant to be an exaggeration, like a rhetorical exaggeration, that they were going to be so on all the time that they would be there 26 hours a day.

318
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:07.500
But of course, it's not that.

319
00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:10.920
It is that Bajor has long days, right?

320
00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:13.079
It, absolutely.

321
00:21:13.140 --> 00:21:22.680
And there is a long running thing about 4 shift rotations on Twitter, but I just get so bored here in the administration on... don't want to know.

322
00:21:22.740 --> 00:21:23.220
Yeah.

323
00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:26.519
Well, you know, the administration at my own work is boring enough.

324
00:21:26.579 --> 00:21:27.480
I don't need to hear about this.

325
00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:29.519
This is another good twist, though, isn't it?

326
00:21:29.579 --> 00:21:33.299
Because we think we're going after the Gem'adar, and then there's a damage, Gem'adar. the hell's going on?

327
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:34.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

328
00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:35.220
Yeah, yeah.

329
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:37.079
And it's about to explode.

330
00:21:37.140 --> 00:21:39.779
And so, of course, we rescue them because of course, we do.

331
00:21:40.619 --> 00:21:45.720
Oh, I love all these, you know, soldiers going down the corridor there, over their shoulders.

332
00:21:45.779 --> 00:21:46.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

333
00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:48.660
It's a it's a pretty good shot too.

334
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:51.660
Yeah, I think LaFar's doing a pretty good job of this.

335
00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:53.940
But he feels this tiny set full of people.

336
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:57.779
So there's what, one, two, three, four, five, 6 security offices plus the free regulars.

337
00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:01.079
And then I think 6 Gemadar beam in and way.

338
00:22:01.140 --> 00:22:02.700
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

339
00:22:02.819 --> 00:22:05.819
It's like, come on, I'm going to spend all my money on latex this week.

340
00:22:06.180 --> 00:22:10.619
Like, where it's completely hidden, isn't he?

341
00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:12.539
Like, you don't even know that he's there.

342
00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:16.079
Look at that smug look on Brian Thompson's face.

343
00:22:16.140 --> 00:22:17.700
You just called mistaken, okay?

344
00:22:18.779 --> 00:22:21.599
There was a moment a 2nd ago, right?

345
00:22:21.660 --> 00:22:27.900
where O'Brien said to Wolf, because Wolf goes, put in the defiant on guard duty would be a waste of resources.

346
00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:30.779
And Bryce says, well, you wouldn't say that if you had family on the station.

347
00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:36.240
I just like those little bikes and get on DS9 that you don't really, you're Voyager.

348
00:22:36.299 --> 00:22:36.539
Hello?

349
00:22:36.599 --> 00:22:37.680
No.

350
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:39.779
Oh, here he is.

351
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:43.380
And he's so oily, isn't he?

352
00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:45.359
He's so smarmy.

353
00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:46.140
It's wonderful.

354
00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:47.220
He's so good.

355
00:22:47.940 --> 00:22:53.519
I don't trust him for a second, but actually, his motives are honourable in this, aren't they?

356
00:22:53.579 --> 00:22:55.500
everything he says is true.

357
00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:57.599
Yeah, yeah.

358
00:22:57.660 --> 00:23:08.579
The thing, I think that the thing that we don't like him, that makes us not like him more than anything else, he's disregard for the Jem'Hadar.

359
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:09.720
Not like him.

360
00:23:09.779 --> 00:23:11.039
Don't you like Wayoon?

361
00:23:11.099 --> 00:23:12.000
I think he's.

362
00:23:12.059 --> 00:23:13.980
Oh, no, no, but why he's a bad guy.

363
00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:17.519
He's bad because he's rude about the Jem'Hadar.

364
00:23:18.660 --> 00:23:20.460
Oh, he's so...

365
00:23:20.519 --> 00:23:21.180
Look at him.

366
00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:24.359
Leaning forward to her little knot.

367
00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:28.380
You know, Nathan, I probably know things about you.

368
00:23:28.380 --> 00:23:29.819
You don't know about yourself, you know.

369
00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:36.420
Isn't he about to offer him sort of rule like you could rule the galaxy alongside us or whatever?

370
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:39.900
Absolute ruler of the Federation.

371
00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:40.920
That's it.

372
00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:41.460
That's it.

373
00:23:42.779 --> 00:23:45.480
Do you know the bit and call to arms?

374
00:23:45.539 --> 00:23:53.460
Do you remember that bit between Cisco and where um where is going, oh, all those children on Cardassia that we helped save?

375
00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:59.339
They were starving on the streets and sisters going, oh God, well, don't worry, we won't attack them.

376
00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:01.980
We won't put up the minefield and then it cuts to the next scene.

377
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:04.680
Right, get that minefield going quickly.

378
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:06.599
It's great.

379
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:14.339
Hey, the way he delivers his line because he gets quite complicated speeches to say.

380
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:15.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

381
00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:18.839
Yeah, it just, it's so fluidic the way it's really good.

382
00:24:18.900 --> 00:24:19.859
He is probably good.

383
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:24.720
And they, yes, he is particularly wordy compared to them as well.

384
00:24:24.779 --> 00:24:27.599
I mean, that's one of the reasons why he's less masculine than them.

385
00:24:27.660 --> 00:24:29.460
You know, he never stops talking.

386
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:33.119
He's sort of camp and obsequious, all of that sort of thing.

387
00:24:33.180 --> 00:24:33.900
Yeah.

388
00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:35.759
Now, the makeup.

389
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.400
Yes, I know.

390
00:24:38.460 --> 00:24:47.220
I know it's flaking, and unfortunately, when we get those close-ups later, um, it is extremely apparent how much it's flaking.

391
00:24:47.579 --> 00:24:49.980
Yeah, I've, yeah.

392
00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:56.819
I mean, I'm not super sold on the design and I think the hair looks stupid and I think, you know, like it's all a little bit unfortunate.

393
00:24:56.940 --> 00:24:59.279
But it's kind of what they go with.

394
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:04.140
At this point, Nathan, I'm just used to ridiculous looking aliens, you know?

395
00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:06.059
Have we had the Beaumar yet?

396
00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:07.500
No, they're coming in 2 years time.

397
00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:17.700
So what I think, though, is that Odo's makeup is much worse in series 4 than it was in series one.

398
00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:23.700
And the close-ups are not kind to him in this episode.

399
00:25:23.940 --> 00:25:26.220
They put more layers on him.

400
00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:30.240
He's closer to his skin in series one.

401
00:25:30.299 --> 00:25:31.019
That's right.

402
00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:40.799
So they've built up his face and his eyes are in a sort of sunken pit of latex and as a result, the latex doesn't join properly.

403
00:25:40.859 --> 00:25:47.880
He looks like a sort of 70s Doctor Who monster where he's got like his face visible under the mask.

404
00:25:47.940 --> 00:25:50.339
He did say in the Forsaken.

405
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:51.720
He doesn't do faces very well.

406
00:25:51.779 --> 00:25:54.180
But he's gotten worse at doing them.

407
00:25:54.420 --> 00:25:57.240
Yeah, I just think it's a bad idea.

408
00:25:57.299 --> 00:25:58.680
It was always a dumb idea.

409
00:25:58.740 --> 00:26:10.619
I think, to put Renee in that makeup, but they just make it worse and worse rather than making it more and more subtle, I think, or just like just less impactful.

410
00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:16.619
It's ridiculous I really think you do get a sense of the stakes in this episode.

411
00:26:16.680 --> 00:26:23.759
He basically says, you know, these Jemadar, if they can reproduce, our projections are that they could take over the Dominion.

412
00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:25.380
It's all world, world payroll.

413
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:31.680
But you know, we've already seen the impact of what the Dominion can do in various episodes and the Jem'adar.

414
00:26:31.740 --> 00:26:42.180
Like there's that episode in series 2 shadow play with the hologramatic city where they completely destroy the city and the man recreated it as a hologram because he's the only one that survived.

415
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:49.380
The quickening, which is a virus that they introduce into the people. they all started dying out.

416
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:56.519
So we do understand that if they gain control of a piece of technology this powerful, it's bad news.

417
00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:00.779
So this, I think, is interesting, this beer, right?

418
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:08.220
So when what Cisco says is that the Germadar obey you because they're addicted to white.

419
00:27:08.220 --> 00:27:14.400
Oh, they're because they're genetically engineered to believe that the founders are gods and to obey them.

420
00:27:14.460 --> 00:27:16.859
And of course, they're addicted to wine.

421
00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:19.619
And that's why they obey.

422
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:27.660
And in fact, we learn from a meta clan that that's not why they obey at all that that stuff wasn't necessary.

423
00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:30.960
They obey because they're honourable people in some sense.

424
00:27:31.019 --> 00:27:32.039
Do you know what I mean?

425
00:27:32.099 --> 00:27:37.619
Like they have a proper ethic and they're loyal and they do what they're told.

426
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:45.359
And so they're contrasted with Wayoon, who still is doing what he's told in his own way, but doesn't respect them, I think.

427
00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:56.220
Again, it's more interesting in rocks and shoals because there's literally one vial of white to go around all those Gemadar and they're all suffering from withdrawal.

428
00:27:56.279 --> 00:28:02.160
And there's no reason for them to go through with their sort of suicide mission and they still do it.

429
00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:03.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

430
00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:07.859
I just think Ron Moore sort of took, mate, you might have looked at this and gone, do you know what?

431
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:13.500
If I could just put this into a more engaging situation.

432
00:28:13.559 --> 00:28:14.759
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

433
00:28:14.819 --> 00:28:17.460
I mean, I think this situation is fun.

434
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:22.140
I think the other one is pretty bleak and it has a pretty good ending.

435
00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:24.720
But you sort of look at, though.

436
00:28:24.779 --> 00:28:26.099
Do you remember all that location working?

437
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:27.299
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

438
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:29.099
Yeah, yeah, that was pretty good.

439
00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:30.420
Yeah, look at this makeup.

440
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:31.200
Look at his eyes.

441
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:34.380
Like the makeup isn't sticking to an AC.

442
00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:42.599
I've never stopped going on about, you know, when he tore that mask off at the end of the series 6. he wasn't sure whether they were coming back for 7 at this point and so there you go, fucking have it.

443
00:28:44.579 --> 00:28:50.279
Whereas whereas Michael is wearing the latex with a plom.

444
00:28:50.339 --> 00:28:58.619
He's, uh, what I think it shows, though, is just how good Renee is, because he's still manages to remote through Hill, you know?

445
00:28:58.680 --> 00:28:59.279
Yeah, absolutely.

446
00:28:59.339 --> 00:29:00.960
But you are right.

447
00:29:01.019 --> 00:29:03.960
Remember when we watched Far Beyond the Stars, and he was just an actor.

448
00:29:04.019 --> 00:29:05.819
Yeah, it's incredible.

449
00:29:06.180 --> 00:29:09.420
See, this banter is actually funny, isn't it?

450
00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:13.740
You know, like there's going to be canapes in the lounge, you know, I forgot my address uniform.

451
00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:25.380
Like, that's actually quite funny banter, and it's playing against just how incredibly serious and dull Gemadara, you know, like, um, and I kind of like that.

452
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:26.579
I think that worked well.

453
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:30.299
You know, you sent me a picture, but I did go looking as well.

454
00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:30.539
Yeah.

455
00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:32.759
Clarence Williams is such a beautiful man.

456
00:29:32.819 --> 00:29:34.500
How could they make him look like this?

457
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:36.660
I think you can still tell.

458
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:41.339
You know, like, I mean, you've got to squint a bit.

459
00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:42.720
I think he's probably hard.

460
00:29:42.779 --> 00:29:45.779
Cracked skin, bones coming out of his head.

461
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:46.440
I mean come on.

462
00:29:46.500 --> 00:29:51.720
Well, no, I know, but you've got his eyes and his mouth, you know, and that's sometimes enough.

463
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:52.559
He does.

464
00:29:52.740 --> 00:29:54.480
It looks like he might be a good kisser, you know.

465
00:29:54.539 --> 00:29:55.140
Yes.

466
00:29:55.200 --> 00:30:01.799
I also think there's one scene where he tears up after he kills Brian Thompson's character.

467
00:30:01.859 --> 00:30:03.960
Oh, I figured that was just the makeup.

468
00:30:04.019 --> 00:30:05.640
I don't think it is.

469
00:30:05.700 --> 00:30:07.019
I don't think it is.

470
00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:11.579
I think it's a really strange choice and I think it's super effective in that scene.

471
00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:14.039
Do you know, I've just thought of another...

472
00:30:14.099 --> 00:30:16.859
It's a really good thread sort of examined in the Gemini.

473
00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:20.400
Do you remember in the 2 parter when Warf and Martok are fighting in that ring?

474
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:23.160
And the Gemadar there said, I yield.

475
00:30:23.220 --> 00:30:25.019
You know, he's an honourable man.

476
00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:25.920
That's another good thing.

477
00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:28.079
No, he says, all I can do is kill him.

478
00:30:28.140 --> 00:30:29.220
I can't make him yield.

479
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:30.660
All I can do is kill him.

480
00:30:30.660 --> 00:30:32.880
Doesn't interest me. holds my interest, he says.

481
00:30:32.940 --> 00:30:33.779
Yeah.

482
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:34.319
Yeah.

483
00:30:34.380 --> 00:30:38.759
It's a theme, isn't it, that the gemadar are more honourable than the vorta?

484
00:30:38.819 --> 00:30:44.039
Because the voice is cowardly. even though I do like the episode and I know you're less keen.

485
00:30:44.099 --> 00:30:52.619
It's far less interesting in the siege of AR 558 because they're just ruthless killers in that, aren't they?

486
00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:56.579
We only see from the point of view of the Federation camp with them coming.

487
00:30:56.700 --> 00:30:58.079
Yes, yeah, yeah.

488
00:30:58.140 --> 00:31:00.720
But you never have scenes with them talking or anything like that.

489
00:31:00.779 --> 00:31:02.099
They just come in with garlands.

490
00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:17.940
I mean, Nathan, I remember when they 1st appeared in when they were in the search, they attack the Defiant and they go all out on like a 5 minute action scene where they're kicking the shit out of every regular. really wanted you to feel the impact of how powerful they are.

491
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:20.519
Yeah, I think they do a good job.

492
00:31:20.579 --> 00:31:21.660
I think they're good.

493
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:23.160
I think they're interesting, you know.

494
00:31:23.220 --> 00:31:33.240
You know how we had, you know, the Zindi just developed in one season and trying to make them interesting and have interrelationships between each other.

495
00:31:33.299 --> 00:31:38.700
Whereas this is just so skilfully done in just a handful of episodes across a few years.

496
00:31:38.819 --> 00:31:44.339
I'm very pleased that somebody said, well, can't we just bomb it from orbit, for God's sakes.

497
00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:49.680
But the excuse as to why they go, oh, unfortunately, the structure is made from neutronium.

498
00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:55.440
It's the most Star Trek substance ever.

499
00:31:55.920 --> 00:32:00.240
Normally they're putting in line, so we don't have to do action sequence.

500
00:32:00.299 --> 00:32:01.859
Now they're making excuses, so we do.

501
00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:06.539
Look at why you with his hands together.

502
00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:08.099
It's like...

503
00:32:08.099 --> 00:32:10.500
Yeah, it's strange.

504
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:15.180
You remember when I said to you that Coombe said in that big interview with the Enterprise cast?

505
00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:16.140
You know, I'd done my time.

506
00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:17.759
I've done a lot of work for you.

507
00:32:17.819 --> 00:32:20.220
Good work and I, you know what?

508
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:22.500
You see it in every DS9 episode, don't you?

509
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:25.319
Like, he's playing every scene brilliantly.

510
00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:31.859
So extra points here for Avery's line of dialogue, which has the word zigurat in it, like that's pretty great.

511
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:35.279
Don't hear that often enough to it in Star Trek.

512
00:32:35.339 --> 00:32:37.740
He will say amen later as well.

513
00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:38.819
Does he?

514
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:39.660
Yeah, yeah.

515
00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:41.460
These 2 Gemadar.

516
00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:43.200
They start gossiping with each other.

517
00:32:43.259 --> 00:32:45.119
He goes, you know what?

518
00:32:45.180 --> 00:32:47.039
I told you that the Klingons were a bit rubbish.

519
00:32:47.099 --> 00:32:48.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

520
00:32:48.539 --> 00:32:52.319
So here's Brian Thompson doing his hero moment.

521
00:32:52.619 --> 00:32:56.220
You might remember me from Buffy Wolf, right?

522
00:32:56.339 --> 00:32:57.119
Twice.

523
00:32:57.180 --> 00:33:03.299
And I had an ice pick in the X-Files.

524
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:05.940
I was Julian Anson in one episode.

525
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:06.480
All right.

526
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:11.519
Yeah, this stuff is all sort of bullshit, isn't it, really?

527
00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:14.279
Oh, no, I've killed mine.

528
00:33:14.339 --> 00:33:17.099
You killed your blah, blah, blah. whatever.

529
00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:25.019
No, let's get to the, you know, the, although it was more fun in batter, bing, batter, bang, you know, when they did this.

530
00:33:25.079 --> 00:33:27.240
Yeah, it was far more fun in that.

531
00:33:27.299 --> 00:33:30.480
But I do like that we're tricked into thinking, okay, we're already in there.

532
00:33:30.539 --> 00:33:31.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

533
00:33:32.039 --> 00:33:32.640
Yeah, yeah.

534
00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:37.259
Although the Zigurat does look remarkably like the sets of the Defiant, doesn't it?

535
00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:40.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

536
00:33:40.140 --> 00:33:40.440
Yeah.

537
00:33:40.500 --> 00:33:44.099
I actually think the sets in the cigarette are actually pretty well designed.

538
00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:45.000
They are pretty good.

539
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:47.039
They're quite big, aren't they?

540
00:33:47.099 --> 00:33:48.240
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

541
00:33:48.299 --> 00:33:50.819
Unlike these sets here in the defiant.

542
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:53.940
But is supposed to be a submarine, isn't it?

543
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:55.140
Isn't that the idea?

544
00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:56.700
Here's what I think is great.

545
00:33:56.759 --> 00:34:03.299
We came back from the ad break and I suddenly had no fucking idea what was going on in this scene.

546
00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:06.299
So it's a it's a drill, isn't it?

547
00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:07.799
It's a simulation.

548
00:34:08.460 --> 00:34:19.380
They're just practising getting in, but it's, I just thought, oh, they've turned against them suddenly or something, and now we're fighting each other, and we'll find out why later.

549
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:32.099
If you gave me a pound for every single time, we did one of these simulations where someone cocks it up and then someone walks in and goes, well, you're going to have to try that again.

550
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:33.360
You're all dead, yeah.

551
00:34:33.420 --> 00:34:36.960
I'd have enough to buy that fresh old Tom Paris figure, you know.

552
00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:39.480
Easily a couple of 100 quid.

553
00:34:39.539 --> 00:34:40.800
They do it quite a bit, didn't they?

554
00:34:40.860 --> 00:34:43.619
But I had no idea what was going on.

555
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:46.679
I had seen this before, but I just didn't remember.

556
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:50.039
Look at Clara's.

557
00:34:50.099 --> 00:34:53.940
Very, very unimpressive, you federation people.

558
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:55.260
Yeah.

559
00:34:55.500 --> 00:35:01.739
Oh, look, and Worf, every time Worf sort of criticised. he's the wor- he's very prissy, isn't he?

560
00:35:01.860 --> 00:35:02.699
He's like, excuse me.

561
00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:05.340
I'm a warrior, all right.

562
00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:07.619
Yeah, yeah, shut up. were doing the right thing.

563
00:35:07.860 --> 00:35:12.239
Oh, I did like this line though, Rico goes, oh, for God, they're hopeless.

564
00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:17.940
If they're gonna, if they want to survive over victory, then they have got a hope.

565
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:19.019
Well, that's it.

566
00:35:19.079 --> 00:35:21.539
Like, O'Brien just doesn't even think of it.

567
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:25.320
It's just like, yeah, no, we're not we're not blowing it up until we leave.

568
00:35:25.380 --> 00:35:27.480
I'm sorry, but we're just not doing that.

569
00:35:27.539 --> 00:35:29.579
Column delivers our stuff.

570
00:35:29.699 --> 00:35:31.920
You want us to blow it up while we're still inside.

571
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:42.360
Yeah, but, like, again, like, I think I, because we we see both of them give it sort of pep talk.

572
00:35:42.420 --> 00:35:43.019
So, aren't we?

573
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:50.099
We see the Germadar give their pep talk saying we're currently all dead and we are going to get our lives back by fighting for victory.

574
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:51.360
That's how we get our life back.

575
00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:54.000
And hence victory is life, which is they're saying.

576
00:35:54.059 --> 00:35:55.139
And I thought that was pretty good.

577
00:35:55.199 --> 00:36:00.059
And then the humans kind of mock it. and say their version, which I think is good as well.

578
00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:06.360
I thought this scene in the lift was really well durated because it feels cramped.

579
00:36:06.420 --> 00:36:11.460
It's an awkward conversation where they're giving very disparate point of views.

580
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:14.460
Um, and I like the lighting in this scene as well.

581
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:18.659
I don't know, it just felt a little bit more dynamic than just going up in the lift.

582
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:24.000
Yeah, I'm interested in Coombs's makeup because it's basically his skin colour.

583
00:36:24.059 --> 00:36:28.380
It's not that white at all that it normally is, is it?

584
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:29.699
I don't know why that's happening.

585
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:30.960
Go back to him there.

586
00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:32.159
Yeah, he's quite pink, isn't he?

587
00:36:32.219 --> 00:36:32.880
Yeah, yeah.

588
00:36:32.940 --> 00:36:35.460
It's an early makeup thing or it's just the way it's lit.

589
00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:38.940
Oh, this is the bit as well, where he says, whiskey.

590
00:36:39.539 --> 00:36:40.739
We know about the gateway.

591
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:41.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

592
00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:43.559
That's really interesting.

593
00:36:43.619 --> 00:36:45.059
That's super interesting.

594
00:36:45.539 --> 00:36:46.980
Yeah.

595
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:50.460
And so everyone gets to say their piece.

596
00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:57.719
You know, like it is very talky, but it's people talking about how they differ in that outlook on things.

597
00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:04.320
Um, This isn't going to be a suicide mission, says Cisco.

598
00:37:04.380 --> 00:37:06.300
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

599
00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:06.719
Yeah.

600
00:37:06.780 --> 00:37:10.199
In fact, Ramirez, few people die, don't they?

601
00:37:10.260 --> 00:37:11.579
Well, some people do though.

602
00:37:12.420 --> 00:37:15.659
We just can't even say, oh, we never mind that.

603
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:18.059
We'll shoot them off in a torpedo.

604
00:37:18.059 --> 00:37:18.659
Yeah.

605
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:19.920
We'll never talk about them.

606
00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:24.960
Yeah, I mean, that was the thing about AR 558, wasn't it?

607
00:37:25.019 --> 00:37:30.300
was that these were all our regulars and so we know they weren't going to be killed.

608
00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:34.320
And so in an episode where they're having to stand...

609
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:37.739
They blew off Nok's leg. yeah that's true.

610
00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:38.579
That is true.

611
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:39.599
That's that's something.

612
00:37:39.659 --> 00:37:41.820
And deal with it as well.

613
00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:42.179
My God.

614
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:43.619
Consequences in Star Trek.

615
00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:44.400
What a revelation.

616
00:37:44.460 --> 00:37:45.840
I've seen, I really like.

617
00:37:45.900 --> 00:37:49.980
Is this where he says, there are no Gemhadar women.

618
00:37:50.039 --> 00:38:00.059
Yeah, but what I really like is this guy is like the sort of weird deepshit... with the kind of brown head and he's staring at it.

619
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:03.179
He's staring at Terry, which is really funny.

620
00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:06.119
He's a stupid Dalek, isn't he?

621
00:38:06.179 --> 00:38:09.119
But he's got quite great teeth and stuff.

622
00:38:09.179 --> 00:38:10.800
Like I think he's actually pretty good.

623
00:38:10.980 --> 00:38:14.219
Why are you admiring these gematology?

624
00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:15.059
What is wrong with you?

625
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:16.079
No, no, no.

626
00:38:16.139 --> 00:38:18.900
No, I meant good like monster alien teeth.

627
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:21.960
I think he's really good because this is him.

628
00:38:22.019 --> 00:38:27.360
This is because we already know about the the child thing, right?

629
00:38:27.420 --> 00:38:33.239
We already know that like, because he's going to say that they're eight, that he's eight, right?

630
00:38:33.300 --> 00:38:40.079
like in a minute and that he doesn't expect to live to 20 because hardly anyone does or no one lives to 30.

631
00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:42.659
You know, hardly anyone lives to 20.

632
00:38:42.900 --> 00:38:43.500
He's eight.

633
00:38:43.619 --> 00:38:45.539
He doesn't sleep, he doesn't eat.

634
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:51.059
None of that is known to Dax at this point, even though we know it from the abandoned.

635
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:51.659
Yeah?

636
00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:58.619
The funniest thing, though, is when he leans in and says to her, how old are you then?

637
00:38:58.679 --> 00:39:01.380
Yeah, no, but he says, you look good.

638
00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:02.940
Oh, you know, you don't look at it.

639
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:04.559
You don't know, thank you.

640
00:39:04.619 --> 00:39:06.539
We don't necessarily fun.

641
00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:07.739
It's really cute.

642
00:39:08.579 --> 00:39:14.820
Ducks then goes off, you know, gossipy Ducks and goes, oh, I've just struck up a great friendship with one of the Gemma dolls.

643
00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:16.800
He's a great laugh.

644
00:39:16.860 --> 00:39:25.199
The thing that I really liked is the scene later on in the battle where she calls him by name and says, like she actually names him Veracara.

645
00:39:25.260 --> 00:39:27.780
Not a lot, but there's some common ground.

646
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:28.860
No, I like it.

647
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:29.880
I thought that was good.

648
00:39:29.940 --> 00:39:30.599
They connect.

649
00:39:30.659 --> 00:39:32.159
Look at his reaction.

650
00:39:32.219 --> 00:39:34.619
Wait, he says, you know, look, he's quite shocked.

651
00:39:34.739 --> 00:39:36.659
And then she's...

652
00:39:36.659 --> 00:39:37.619
I'm really jealous.

653
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:39.179
You know, I could do without sleeping as well.

654
00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:40.619
Imagine that productive I'd be.

655
00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:42.300
A wharf.

656
00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:46.920
What's the point of going into battle if you don't savour the fruits of your victory?

657
00:39:46.980 --> 00:39:48.539
That's great.

658
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:50.460
I think that's really good.

659
00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:52.500
And that's a real proper difference.

660
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:53.280
Do you know what I mean?

661
00:39:53.340 --> 00:39:59.880
Because basically, you know, like all of these aliens who just want war and battle and honour and stuff is kind of boring.

662
00:39:59.940 --> 00:40:05.820
But the thing that he likes is when the paddle's over and then he can get pissed, you know.

663
00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:07.320
That's a great line.

664
00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:08.639
What about the women?

665
00:40:08.699 --> 00:40:09.780
There you go, Phil.

666
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:14.519
They're the mothers of our children and Dax goes, yeah, they're a lot of fun at parties as well.

667
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:17.880
But he agrees. agrees with that.

668
00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:20.219
You are right.

669
00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:22.139
I didn't quite realise when watching this.

670
00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:24.000
There are lots of different points of view.

671
00:40:24.059 --> 00:40:24.960
Yes, aren't they?

672
00:40:25.019 --> 00:40:29.760
And that is far more interesting than an episode just running with a theme and everyone going with it.

673
00:40:29.820 --> 00:40:30.420
Yeah.

674
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:33.360
Yeah, no, I think that's, but that's the theme, isn't it?

675
00:40:33.420 --> 00:40:39.539
You know, we have these just disparate points of view about things and it's not just between us and the Dominion.

676
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:43.440
It's also between the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar as well.

677
00:40:43.500 --> 00:40:48.840
And this bit here where they come in and ask, it's so demeaning, so there, isn't it?

678
00:40:48.900 --> 00:40:57.059
And then he's eating his dinner and then he sort of dabs his mouth, and then just says it like, oh, further to clan, do you pleasure alluded to the dominion?

679
00:40:57.119 --> 00:40:58.139
Yeah, half-assed.

680
00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:01.500
No, it's really, really disrespectful.

681
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:07.260
They, like, you know, they're not just doing it because they're they're hanging out.

682
00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:08.219
Do you know what I mean?

683
00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:09.179
They're coming down.

684
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:11.940
It's a religious ritual for them, right?

685
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:14.340
And he's utterly dismissive of it.

686
00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:17.940
Like he just doesn't give a shit. the way she says, oh, may it keep you strong?

687
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:18.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

688
00:41:19.019 --> 00:41:19.980
You know, it just sort of has.

689
00:41:20.039 --> 00:41:26.760
But do you remember in, again, I'm going to keep making embarrassments to rocks and shoals when Keyvan went, may it keep you strong?

690
00:41:28.500 --> 00:41:31.500
Yeah, he just tosses it off because he doesn't give a shit.

691
00:41:31.559 --> 00:41:33.420
And they, it is a proper ritual.

692
00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:35.340
Like we see it happen several times, don't we?

693
00:41:35.639 --> 00:41:37.619
Oh, across the run.

694
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:38.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

695
00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:41.639
And it's a strong idea, isn't it, as well?

696
00:41:41.699 --> 00:41:42.599
The drug addiction.

697
00:41:42.659 --> 00:41:47.760
Well, it is in the 1st episode of Star Trek, the Next Generation.

698
00:41:48.659 --> 00:41:53.880
Yes, but we were handling things like drug addiction very badly about that.

699
00:41:53.940 --> 00:41:56.219
But don't you remember John DeLancey?

700
00:41:56.280 --> 00:41:58.920
like Hugh appears as a sort of 21st century?

701
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:02.340
They sort of sniffing those things out of the thing?

702
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:02.639
Yeah.

703
00:42:02.699 --> 00:42:07.380
Oh, do you remember later on in the say, just say no, Wesley. drugs.

704
00:42:10.019 --> 00:42:16.079
Oh, so we get another. this is another one of those things now where I was just a bit like, oh, can we just get to the fire now?

705
00:42:16.139 --> 00:42:16.920
Yeah, yeah.

706
00:42:16.980 --> 00:42:18.659
This is just sort of bound to happen.

707
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:21.000
It is kind of a little bit tedious.

708
00:42:22.019 --> 00:42:26.519
And this bit was quite badly directed, I thought.

709
00:42:26.760 --> 00:42:30.360
I don't think there's room in these sets.

710
00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:31.440
Great action.

711
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:32.219
That's the problem.

712
00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:33.840
I do think that's the problem.

713
00:42:34.139 --> 00:42:35.880
Look at everyone.

714
00:42:35.940 --> 00:42:37.800
They're just sort of all tough.

715
00:42:38.519 --> 00:42:42.780
And now we've cleared that part of the room so that they can fall over and all of that.

716
00:42:43.380 --> 00:42:48.000
Oh boy, when Avery Brooks comes in shouting, I get all hot and bothered.

717
00:42:52.139 --> 00:42:54.900
Sorry, he's going to murder Brian Thompson now, isn't he?

718
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:59.579
Did you see him coming and just push that guy over like he pushed the Starfleet guy out of the way?

719
00:43:02.579 --> 00:43:05.280
That's it. does he snap his neck?

720
00:43:05.340 --> 00:43:06.059
He does, doesn't he?

721
00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:06.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

722
00:43:07.019 --> 00:43:09.840
And apparently they had to take the sound off.

723
00:43:09.900 --> 00:43:12.239
Oh, for fuck's sake.

724
00:43:12.300 --> 00:43:14.400
What wimps they were back then.

725
00:43:17.460 --> 00:43:20.639
I mean, there is, well, we watched Empoc Nore, there was Bone.

726
00:43:20.699 --> 00:43:22.920
There was a neck snapping noise in that.

727
00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:24.599
That was only a year later.

728
00:43:24.659 --> 00:43:27.900
Do you think Lavar chickened out or Rick?

729
00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:28.800
No, no, no, no.

730
00:43:28.860 --> 00:43:31.139
It's all on the memory alpha page.

731
00:43:31.260 --> 00:43:43.260
Like the VAR wanted it to be more violent and it probably should have been in a sense, although I'm tend to be on the side of the people, like if they're not going to be proper, then why do it?

732
00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:46.860
If it was just going to be like a load of laborious action though.

733
00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:47.699
I don't know.

734
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:50.159
I quite like how snappy those edits are.

735
00:43:50.219 --> 00:43:52.440
If that's them taking out lots of bits.

736
00:43:52.500 --> 00:43:54.659
It makes it more dynamic as a result.

737
00:43:55.079 --> 00:44:01.320
Yeah, so this again, look, these are just 2 men who have completely different ideas.

738
00:44:01.380 --> 00:44:02.579
He's about to cry.

739
00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:03.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

740
00:44:03.900 --> 00:44:07.679
No, and I think that's actually it because he's saying he was my second.

741
00:44:07.739 --> 00:44:11.820
I have known him for years, 3 years.

742
00:44:11.880 --> 00:44:12.780
Three years.

743
00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:13.920
Do you know what I mean?

744
00:44:13.980 --> 00:44:16.199
Like, that's like a 3rd of his life.

745
00:44:16.260 --> 00:44:17.820
I valued him.

746
00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:27.599
Um, And notice that Avery, like the Cisco can't make eye contact with him when he says you have a funny way of showing it.

747
00:44:27.659 --> 00:44:36.059
And this, I place the good of the unit over my personal feelings, but he is acting, he's showing us that his personal feelings are really there.

748
00:44:36.179 --> 00:44:42.059
Do you think they're, like, post what you leave behind because there's a lot of Jem'Adar still about.

749
00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:45.420
Is there redemption for the Jemadar, but that's possible.

750
00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:48.179
We've never mentioned them again, have we?

751
00:44:48.239 --> 00:44:48.900
We've seen it.

752
00:44:49.019 --> 00:44:50.820
No, Kurtz Metret never really went there, did they?

753
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:56.880
No, they've done the Dominion a couple of times, but the founders anyway, but they haven't...

754
00:44:56.880 --> 00:44:59.340
I'd love to see an update your Gem at all.

755
00:44:59.579 --> 00:45:00.300
See what that looks like.

756
00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:07.559
But maybe they don't exist 900 years in the future because they're not being forced grown anymore.

757
00:45:07.619 --> 00:45:08.099
Yeah.

758
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:12.840
Yeah, I thought he was really properly good.

759
00:45:12.900 --> 00:45:16.199
And it is, it is like, I love this scene.

760
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:20.280
Oh, may I speak to you for a moment?

761
00:45:21.480 --> 00:45:24.599
And again, do you know what I mean?

762
00:45:24.659 --> 00:45:31.440
Like, again, this, where, like, what struck me, fuck that makeup is bad.

763
00:45:31.500 --> 00:45:36.300
What struck me was, um, Like, it's coming off.

764
00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:37.500
It's not sticking on.

765
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:38.460
Do you know what I mean?

766
00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:46.019
Like, I don't know what Michael Westmore's doing, but he's had a bad morning this morning and the, you know, like, he's just not sticking the makeup on.

767
00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:47.400
I, you know what?

768
00:45:47.460 --> 00:45:50.579
It says something to the performances on the right in here that I did.

769
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:53.340
I wasn't even noticing that. was just in the scene.

770
00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:54.300
Yeah.

771
00:45:54.360 --> 00:46:06.239
What, what, what I think is good is this is the point where I thought they know what's going to happen at the end, they know where this is going. photo.

772
00:46:06.300 --> 00:46:06.659
Yeah.

773
00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:07.440
Yeah.

774
00:46:07.500 --> 00:46:10.320
Because it's amazing how late this is.

775
00:46:10.380 --> 00:46:12.539
Like, this is season four, episode 23.

776
00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:14.699
There's 3 years of this show to go.

777
00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:17.760
It's almost impossible to imagine Deep Space 9.

778
00:46:17.820 --> 00:46:23.280
You just think, oh, you mean Weune's not in it until like more than halfway through.

779
00:46:23.340 --> 00:46:28.380
He doesn't come back again until towards the end of 5 in the Kira episode.

780
00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:29.159
Ties of blood and water.

781
00:46:29.219 --> 00:46:32.400
It's like series 5, episode 20 or something like that.

782
00:46:32.460 --> 00:46:37.619
And then his 3rd episode is one we both love, where he meets Kai Wynn.

783
00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:39.360
J.K. Nog episode.

784
00:46:39.420 --> 00:46:43.199
So it's only really the last 2 seasons that he's in.

785
00:46:43.260 --> 00:46:47.280
So in fact, he made that impact with 40 odd episodes.

786
00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:50.699
I just love as well where he sort of whispers, you know.

787
00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:52.980
Your people still love you.

788
00:46:53.579 --> 00:46:55.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

789
00:46:55.559 --> 00:46:58.199
Yeah, look at the camera now. right in his face.

790
00:46:58.260 --> 00:46:59.699
Yeah.

791
00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:00.599
Yeah.

792
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:04.619
But I am ready to end this conversation.

793
00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:11.579
And then, look, you could see the disappointment, but he still respects him and just goes, then it's over.

794
00:47:11.639 --> 00:47:13.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

795
00:47:13.739 --> 00:47:16.139
It's just great acting.

796
00:47:16.380 --> 00:47:19.920
And you don't, I know, I know the makeup.

797
00:47:19.980 --> 00:47:22.860
I know, but sometimes you just need a camera and 2 good actors.

798
00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:24.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

799
00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:26.099
Yeah, and you're right.

800
00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:29.579
LeVar just kind of lets their performances be the focus.

801
00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:34.739
Yeah, oh, I love you, Jeffrey Combs.

802
00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:35.699
He's so good.

803
00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:39.119
I couldn't see much of what was happening with you, Renee, but I'd love it.

804
00:47:39.239 --> 00:47:39.840
Sorry.

805
00:47:39.900 --> 00:47:45.599
I mean, you did see before the way that the eye sockets aren't connected to his face.

806
00:47:45.659 --> 00:47:47.579
Yeah, and he was sort of in the half dark there as well.

807
00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:49.260
So that's a help I would.

808
00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:54.719
Oh, this is a running sort of joke that he writes these messages to Keiko.

809
00:47:54.780 --> 00:47:56.760
Do you know?

810
00:47:56.820 --> 00:47:59.219
But what was really funny?

811
00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:04.260
So we have that whole speech about how he's doing it and how she would feel about it.

812
00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:08.099
You know, and Dax goes, oh, wouldn't it be romantic or something?

813
00:48:08.159 --> 00:48:09.179
wouldn't she appreciate it?

814
00:48:09.239 --> 00:48:12.119
And Miles goes, no, she'd be horrified.

815
00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:13.739
And that's absolutely right.

816
00:48:13.800 --> 00:48:16.380
But then...

817
00:48:16.380 --> 00:48:23.579
But then Dax sends the same message to her mother and like just Dax as a mother.

818
00:48:23.639 --> 00:48:27.239
Like...

819
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:28.739
It's obviously Jazeer's mother.

820
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:30.960
Well, I don't know, maybe maybe it is.

821
00:48:31.019 --> 00:48:36.360
Maybe it is Dax's mother who's on her 10th, you know, body or whatever.

822
00:48:36.420 --> 00:48:38.760
Um, but it's so funny.

823
00:48:38.820 --> 00:48:40.380
Like I just think that's adorable.

824
00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:41.699
It's good banter, isn't it?

825
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:54.960
And and this foreshadows the same banter with Veracara in the final scene, where she says you're going to die at 140 surrounded by, you know, people who love you.

826
00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:58.320
And so that's all that matters.

827
00:48:58.380 --> 00:49:00.300
And then she says the same thing to him.

828
00:49:00.360 --> 00:49:05.460
You'll die at the age of 20, you know, an honoured elder and stuff.

829
00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:07.559
The message to my mother.

830
00:49:07.619 --> 00:49:08.940
I just think it's great.

831
00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:15.300
And you walked around Eastbourne Town Centre, didn't you, when you came to visit?

832
00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:17.760
Obviously I gave you a pepper spray, but you did walk around.

833
00:49:17.820 --> 00:49:19.320
You know how dangerous it is.

834
00:49:19.380 --> 00:49:22.739
So every time I go to world, you don't know this, but I'll write you a letter.

835
00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:26.400
Just in case, I don't make it.

836
00:49:32.579 --> 00:49:39.719
It's come to my attention that 1st I met a clan has threatened to get wharf, do not go sucking up to Cisco, all right?

837
00:49:39.780 --> 00:49:40.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

838
00:49:40.739 --> 00:49:42.599
He's mad at you and rightly so.

839
00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:45.119
He goes, don't you worry.

840
00:49:45.179 --> 00:49:46.619
If he kills you, I'll kill him.

841
00:49:46.679 --> 00:49:47.099
All right?

842
00:49:47.159 --> 00:49:50.699
I think that's so funny he will not live to boast about it.

843
00:49:50.760 --> 00:49:53.159
And he says, not a savoury show?

844
00:49:53.219 --> 00:49:55.800
That's Wolf's way of saying it, I care about you.

845
00:49:55.800 --> 00:49:57.300
That's very reassuring.

846
00:49:57.360 --> 00:49:59.699
That's very reassuring, Mr. Warp.

847
00:50:01.260 --> 00:50:03.059
Bloody hell.

848
00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:04.380
There is only 9 minutes left of this.

849
00:50:04.440 --> 00:50:05.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

850
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:07.500
It's absolutely skip, boy.

851
00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:09.239
Oh, dude.

852
00:50:09.300 --> 00:50:10.800
I do just love being with these people though.

853
00:50:10.860 --> 00:50:14.519
But it has been them standing around talking, right?

854
00:50:14.579 --> 00:50:20.159
Yeah, we had a tiny bit of, well, after the action at the start and we get a bit of action in a minute.

855
00:50:20.219 --> 00:50:23.940
Otherwise, it's our standard stock sets, lots of talk.

856
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:35.340
Yeah, but like I said, I thought that the talk was interesting because it is giving the Jem'Hadar the chance to be characters for the 1st time.

857
00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:36.420
Is that right?

858
00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:39.960
It's unusual. one of the 1st times.

859
00:50:40.019 --> 00:50:40.559
Yeah.

860
00:50:40.679 --> 00:50:50.519
It's unusual for Star Trek to take something like the Dominion. you know, a 3 tiered hierarchy, alien race. and explore it over what?

861
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:52.679
Six, 7 years?

862
00:50:52.679 --> 00:50:54.119
No, 5 years.

863
00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:56.400
In such depth, though, you know?

864
00:50:56.460 --> 00:50:58.920
and keep coming back to the will in different ways.

865
00:50:58.980 --> 00:51:00.059
Yeah, yeah.

866
00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:00.599
Yeah.

867
00:51:00.659 --> 00:51:10.920
It's kind of refreshing By the end of the series, it's an incredibly well-defined, but the Dominion is probably better to find than the fucking Federation.

868
00:51:12.539 --> 00:51:15.119
Yeah, so this speech.

869
00:51:15.179 --> 00:51:18.539
I am 1st a metal car, a metlican.

870
00:51:18.599 --> 00:51:19.679
Is that how you say it?

871
00:51:19.739 --> 00:51:20.639
A metaclon.

872
00:51:20.699 --> 00:51:22.139
And we're dead.

873
00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:29.699
And look at the image too, where you've got the Federation people on one side and the Jemadar on the other side, in the long shot.

874
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:33.119
They're all standing next to each other looking completely different from one another.

875
00:51:33.900 --> 00:51:36.480
So how this is being show, isn't it?

876
00:51:36.539 --> 00:51:42.780
And the reason that victory is life is we just assume that we are dead and if we win, then we get to be alive again.

877
00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:44.039
And that's...

878
00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:50.400
Because I'm a massive con air, but I did laugh when he went, my name's Miles O'Brien and I planned to stay alive, okay?

879
00:51:50.460 --> 00:51:51.300
That's us.

880
00:51:51.420 --> 00:51:52.320
Do you know what I mean?

881
00:51:52.380 --> 00:51:58.920
That's why we're different from them, you know, like, and that's a pretty good summary of it.

882
00:51:58.980 --> 00:52:00.599
You know, it's the same thing before.

883
00:52:00.659 --> 00:52:04.920
Like, yeah, we're not setting the bombs and then just sitting here waiting for them to explode.

884
00:52:04.980 --> 00:52:08.460
We're only detonating the bombs if we're in another room, right?

885
00:52:08.579 --> 00:52:13.500
Again, did you see Wyun's face when he's given the speech, a metaclown?

886
00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:14.400
He just looks so bored.

887
00:52:14.519 --> 00:52:15.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

888
00:52:15.900 --> 00:52:16.739
He just doesn't give a shit.

889
00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:20.280
How many times do I have to listen to this every time we go into bowel?

890
00:52:20.699 --> 00:52:26.880
I mean, oh, Nathan and I have this long-standing argument about these phaser rifles.

891
00:52:26.940 --> 00:52:29.099
So he thinks they're made of balls.

892
00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:31.739
I made a fucking balsam wood. and that was all I was thinking of.

893
00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:32.940
They're quite chunky.

894
00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:33.780
They're so shit.

895
00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:36.179
Voyager are better.

896
00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:40.380
We are outside shooting up trees now.

897
00:52:40.440 --> 00:52:41.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

898
00:52:41.820 --> 00:52:45.059
Where are we in Southern California, somewhere in Southern California.

899
00:52:45.659 --> 00:52:47.639
Pretty though, isn't it?

900
00:52:47.699 --> 00:52:48.719
Nice little forest glen.

901
00:52:48.780 --> 00:52:59.579
Yeah, it was a good choice, and it's nice to go outside for once, but it is a massive thing because they've got heaps of, there goes poor old someone and Ramirez.

902
00:52:59.639 --> 00:53:05.880
The horror, Nathan, they say, every time they went on and did a DS9 location shoot, because it's always sunny. think of it.

903
00:53:05.940 --> 00:53:06.599
Rocks and Shoals.

904
00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:07.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

905
00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:11.400
The picnic in Times Orphan, they have searing heat.

906
00:53:11.460 --> 00:53:13.619
And of course, how many people in latex here?

907
00:53:13.679 --> 00:53:14.699
Yeah, yeah.

908
00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:21.420
Those, that thing where they appear, you know, like the weird shape, you know, they're invisible and then they kind of appear.

909
00:53:21.480 --> 00:53:22.980
I think it looks amazing.

910
00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:23.820
That's really great.

911
00:53:23.880 --> 00:53:27.239
I don't know what's going on with this ziggerat.

912
00:53:27.300 --> 00:53:28.019
Like, what is that?

913
00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:30.659
I can't even tell where to join.

914
00:53:30.659 --> 00:53:32.460
But it's quite well done.

915
00:53:32.519 --> 00:53:34.199
But I don't think it can be.

916
00:53:34.260 --> 00:53:35.039
I don't know.

917
00:53:35.099 --> 00:53:35.639
I don't know.

918
00:53:35.699 --> 00:53:37.139
These close-ups now are in the studio.

919
00:53:37.260 --> 00:53:39.119
I don't think that's there, is it?

920
00:53:39.119 --> 00:53:39.960
But I don't know.

921
00:53:40.019 --> 00:53:40.500
I don't know.

922
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:41.400
It is pretty incredible.

923
00:53:41.460 --> 00:53:43.320
Like, how are they letting it in?

924
00:53:43.380 --> 00:53:44.340
It's behind.

925
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:47.820
You know, the Gemada, those big swords with the sort of big knife at the end.

926
00:53:47.880 --> 00:53:52.019
The way they, they sort of throw them into people's necks and then slice.

927
00:53:52.079 --> 00:53:55.500
Yeah, you see, I wonder whether that was absolutely necessary.

928
00:53:55.559 --> 00:53:56.820
Do you know what I mean?

929
00:53:56.880 --> 00:53:58.980
Like, like, why are we doing that?

930
00:53:58.980 --> 00:54:01.260
Just to make it more wild.

931
00:54:01.320 --> 00:54:05.219
A wise man once said, you know, if you're going to show violence, you should show that it hurts.

932
00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:06.539
Yeah, I suppose.

933
00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:07.800
But they don't even do that.

934
00:54:07.860 --> 00:54:12.119
You know, like if they were shooting them with like, yeah, they all just...

935
00:54:12.119 --> 00:54:12.840
It's hour over.

936
00:54:12.900 --> 00:54:14.639
Jay Chatterway.

937
00:54:14.699 --> 00:54:15.539
Is he scoring this one?

938
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:16.380
I don't know.

939
00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:17.159
I didn't check actually.

940
00:54:17.219 --> 00:54:19.199
The music are in this bit.

941
00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:24.300
There was a sort of nice bit of underscoring going on as they were sort of going about the ziggurat.

942
00:54:24.360 --> 00:54:26.099
Yeah, that guy's going to be dead.

943
00:54:26.159 --> 00:54:30.179
I do really like these these sets, though.

944
00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:32.519
Lovely carpet, though, in the cigarette.

945
00:54:32.579 --> 00:54:33.300
Did you...

946
00:54:33.300 --> 00:54:34.619
Did you notice?

947
00:54:34.619 --> 00:54:37.739
How the Germadal there came straight towards the camera.

948
00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:38.340
Oz.

949
00:54:38.699 --> 00:54:40.920
He literally attacked us.

950
00:54:41.760 --> 00:54:43.800
I do like a bit of that.

951
00:54:43.860 --> 00:54:45.179
Do you remember that, Gemadar did that?

952
00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:48.420
He punched Garak in the face, but he punched the camera.

953
00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:49.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

954
00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:50.159
It was quite nice.

955
00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:57.059
Yeah, actually I can see some edits, I think. where you just suddenly cut to a reaction shop.

956
00:54:58.500 --> 00:55:05.159
But, you know, there's some blood, you know, there's some blood. there's some bodies Yeah, oh, no, this effect with Odo.

957
00:55:05.219 --> 00:55:05.820
Good grief.

958
00:55:05.940 --> 00:55:07.679
It's really rough, isn't it?

959
00:55:07.739 --> 00:55:09.179
It's super rough.

960
00:55:09.239 --> 00:55:10.199
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

961
00:55:10.619 --> 00:55:12.360
Imagine how great that would be.

962
00:55:12.420 --> 00:55:13.860
Yeah, yeah.

963
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:14.880
Well, we've seen it.

964
00:55:14.940 --> 00:55:16.500
It would have looked like raw chicken.

965
00:55:17.460 --> 00:55:19.739
Yeah, very unpleasant.

966
00:55:21.300 --> 00:55:25.260
There we go now. right, we're going to see the gateway in a 2nd now.

967
00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:27.840
We need to try and name the planets that we see, all right?

968
00:55:27.900 --> 00:55:29.219
Let's be quick.

969
00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:30.960
Age of one, Bajor.

970
00:55:31.019 --> 00:55:32.280
The Federation.

971
00:55:32.340 --> 00:55:33.780
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

972
00:55:33.780 --> 00:55:35.639
Bajor again.

973
00:55:35.699 --> 00:55:38.699
Oh, I think that's the one from...

974
00:55:38.699 --> 00:55:39.360
Devil's Jew.

975
00:55:39.360 --> 00:55:41.219
The Devil's Jew planet.

976
00:55:41.519 --> 00:55:43.739
Silicon Avatar.

977
00:55:44.219 --> 00:55:46.320
That was just a golf course.

978
00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:48.420
I just saw Paris for Willow.

979
00:55:48.480 --> 00:55:54.300
Paris. yeah Imagine if a 1000000 Jem'dar soldiers landed in Paris.

980
00:55:54.599 --> 00:56:05.039
So the thing, the weird thing is, right, that I just assumed Iconian Gateways were in all the time, but they've only been in it twice. yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah.

981
00:56:05.099 --> 00:56:09.900
There's another, who are the, who are the people from, is it lonely among us?

982
00:56:10.980 --> 00:56:13.619
They have a gay Monday.

983
00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:14.880
Is there a gateway?

984
00:56:14.940 --> 00:56:16.260
And the Anticans.

985
00:56:16.320 --> 00:56:17.219
I don't think so.

986
00:56:17.219 --> 00:56:19.260
So what's the one I'm thinking of?

987
00:56:19.320 --> 00:56:20.400
The last outpost.

988
00:56:20.760 --> 00:56:24.659
Oh, oh, that old man with the staff at the end.

989
00:56:25.079 --> 00:56:27.659
But they had gateways as well, didn't they?

990
00:56:27.719 --> 00:56:31.440
I mean, we get a bit bored of just going from A to B in a spaceship.

991
00:56:31.500 --> 00:56:32.940
How nice if they had one of these.

992
00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:34.679
We could get straight to the planets and get going.

993
00:56:34.739 --> 00:56:35.699
Yeah, yeah.

994
00:56:35.760 --> 00:56:40.320
And again, there seems to just be this standing federation thing where we have to destroy them.

995
00:56:40.380 --> 00:56:43.739
Like, I actually love the idea that 200,000 years ago.

996
00:56:43.800 --> 00:56:47.699
Like the Dominion's been going for 2000 years, we discover here.

997
00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:49.739
But 200,000 years ago.

998
00:56:49.800 --> 00:56:54.960
The Iconians just travelled from place to place in these using these gateways.

999
00:56:55.019 --> 00:56:58.079
And that's kind of super weird and interesting.

1000
00:56:58.139 --> 00:57:01.199
You know, the galaxy was wildly different from how it is now.

1001
00:57:01.260 --> 00:57:02.760
Um, I don't know.

1002
00:57:03.300 --> 00:57:06.480
Now, now you can just hear Ira.

1003
00:57:06.539 --> 00:57:09.059
LaVar, you you killed Jeffrey.

1004
00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:09.539
What are you doing?

1005
00:57:10.500 --> 00:57:12.360
It was Clarence.

1006
00:57:12.420 --> 00:57:13.619
It was Clarence's idea.

1007
00:57:15.179 --> 00:57:17.760
Ask for questioning our loyalty.

1008
00:57:17.820 --> 00:57:18.300
All right.

1009
00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:18.780
Yeah.

1010
00:57:18.840 --> 00:57:19.679
Yeah, okay.

1011
00:57:19.739 --> 00:57:23.099
I mean, I do like this at the end where they've all got their weapons, and suddenly...

1012
00:57:23.099 --> 00:57:25.139
They just kill one another.

1013
00:57:25.199 --> 00:57:29.460
No, but there's a tension, though, that they might just for a second.

1014
00:57:29.579 --> 00:57:30.960
Everyone's sort of holding their guns.

1015
00:57:31.019 --> 00:57:36.179
But like I actually think shooting the vorder doesn't work.

1016
00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:37.380
Like, why would he do that?

1017
00:57:37.440 --> 00:57:39.900
Like, it doesn't make sense that he would do that.

1018
00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:42.420
And do you know what I mean?

1019
00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:43.800
Like, just to get him out of the way.

1020
00:57:43.860 --> 00:57:44.579
Yeah, yeah.

1021
00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:50.820
Well, maybe they felt we needed to see him suffer because of how appalling he was earlier in the episode.

1022
00:57:50.880 --> 00:57:53.159
But it just doesn't make sense.

1023
00:57:53.219 --> 00:57:58.320
And that's why rocks and shoals is better than this because...

1024
00:57:58.320 --> 00:58:01.199
I do always love that sort of predator effect.

1025
00:58:01.260 --> 00:58:02.039
I don't vanish.

1026
00:58:02.039 --> 00:58:03.360
It looks undergrowved.

1027
00:58:03.420 --> 00:58:08.039
I could see a tear in Clarence's eye there, but I think that might have been the weather. might be the makeup.

1028
00:58:08.099 --> 00:58:15.900
But I definitely think that I definitely think that he was deliberately playing that in that in that scene before.

1029
00:58:16.199 --> 00:58:18.780
Yeah, and then they go, we're back.

1030
00:58:18.840 --> 00:58:19.320
We're out.

1031
00:58:19.380 --> 00:58:21.960
That's like a nice self-contained story.

1032
00:58:22.019 --> 00:58:23.579
It just doesn't hang around, really, does it?

1033
00:58:23.639 --> 00:58:24.599
It starts quick.

1034
00:58:24.659 --> 00:58:29.039
It ends quick and in the middle it's talking about the nuts and bolts of the story.

1035
00:58:29.099 --> 00:58:30.179
Yeah.

1036
00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:31.440
Well, yeah, no.

1037
00:58:31.500 --> 00:58:42.179
And but it's even even it's not the story so much, it is just these are groups of people that all have different ethics in a way that sort of kind of interesting.

1038
00:58:42.239 --> 00:58:49.559
Um, but, like, this show does kind of valorize the Germadar in a way.

1039
00:58:49.619 --> 00:58:52.920
You know, the Germadar are more moral than the vorta.

1040
00:58:52.980 --> 00:59:01.920
And this group of Jem'Hadar, who haven't rebelled against the founders, are in some way more moral than the ones who did.

1041
00:59:01.980 --> 00:59:06.840
And I think that that's actually sort of a problem.

1042
00:59:07.619 --> 00:59:14.639
Think when we eventually do Hippocratic oath, you might find that one really interesting.

1043
00:59:14.699 --> 00:59:15.480
Right.

1044
00:59:15.480 --> 00:59:20.400
Um, because again, it's another great guest turn as the lead, Gemadar.

1045
00:59:20.460 --> 00:59:26.699
But there's there's the 2 sides to the to the argument, both on the Gemadar side.

1046
00:59:26.760 --> 00:59:31.320
They just want to kill the Federation people and obviously O'Brien wants to let the Gem'adar die.

1047
00:59:31.380 --> 00:59:42.659
Yeah, it's quite uncomfortable in places as well because it pushes O'Brien and Bashir into a position where Bashir has to use his authority...

1048
00:59:42.719 --> 00:59:44.579
Step on O'Brien.

1049
00:59:44.639 --> 00:59:46.500
You'll just do what you're told.

1050
00:59:46.679 --> 00:59:50.039
I remember watching it going, oh, this is a bit different, you know.

1051
00:59:50.219 --> 00:59:52.019
How late's that?

1052
00:59:52.079 --> 00:59:54.300
Hippocratic, if that's earlier on.

1053
00:59:54.360 --> 00:59:55.739
That's at the start of series 4.

1054
00:59:55.920 --> 00:59:56.880
Yeah, it's the 2nd episode.

1055
00:59:57.000 --> 01:00:01.440
The 3rd episode, after the visitor, they do Way of the Warrior, the visitor, Hitocratic Cove.

1056
01:00:01.500 --> 01:00:06.719
I mean, like 4 is a justly celebrated season of Trek.

1057
01:00:06.780 --> 01:00:09.659
You know, oh, man, Bashir, little green men.

1058
01:00:09.659 --> 01:00:11.280
Yeah, yeah.

1059
01:00:11.340 --> 01:00:13.019
I mean, there's just great, great episodes.

1060
01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:15.539
I think this is this is good.

1061
01:00:15.780 --> 01:00:20.219
And I think it is well executed and very well acted.

1062
01:00:20.280 --> 01:00:25.860
It's just, like I said at the start, it is just a little bit manly for me.

1063
01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:26.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1064
01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:29.880
But I think I might be the problem there rather than the episode.

1065
01:00:29.940 --> 01:00:35.099
Well, yeah, no, I think that it's, yeah, I think there's too many men.

1066
01:00:35.159 --> 01:00:36.539
It's a sausage party.

1067
01:00:36.539 --> 01:00:40.199
And like, you know, sometimes I like that.

1068
01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:42.719
But in my Star Trek.

1069
01:00:42.840 --> 01:00:45.000
I generally like there to be more women.

1070
01:00:52.500 --> 01:00:57.360
It's the end of the episode and it's time for us to work out where we're going next.

1071
01:00:57.420 --> 01:01:01.019
You chose this episode of Deep Space 9.

1072
01:01:01.079 --> 01:01:20.400
And so I'm going to retaliate now by choosing one of by choosing an episode from one of 2 series of Star Trek, and they're the 2 series that we have covered the least at this point, I think. don't know what that is.

1073
01:01:20.460 --> 01:01:26.639
They are Star Trek Voyager and Star Trek Enterprise.

1074
01:01:26.820 --> 01:01:28.380
Of course.

1075
01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:32.039
Well, you complain about me picking Enterprise all the time.

1076
01:01:32.099 --> 01:01:34.739
At least there's a chance this will be a Voyager episode.

1077
01:01:34.800 --> 01:01:39.719
I generally do take us to PS9. quite frequently.

1078
01:01:39.780 --> 01:01:41.639
Yeah, but we have good time there.

1079
01:01:41.760 --> 01:01:42.179
That's why.

1080
01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:48.179
We recently were stuck with Malcolm Reid and Archer having fucking breakfast.

1081
01:01:48.239 --> 01:01:48.780
Do you remember?

1082
01:01:48.900 --> 01:01:50.880
Well, that was some weeks ago now.

1083
01:01:50.940 --> 01:01:55.559
I know it's still traumatic, but it was quite some time ago.

1084
01:01:55.619 --> 01:01:57.780
All I'm going to say to you is this right?

1085
01:01:57.840 --> 01:01:58.079
Yeah.

1086
01:01:58.139 --> 01:02:02.460
If you pull this shit on me, when you're here in my house with me, okay?

1087
01:02:03.059 --> 01:02:05.699
That could be some serious consequences.

1088
01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:08.340
Five episodes of Enterprise in a row.

1089
01:02:08.340 --> 01:02:09.179
All right.

1090
01:02:09.239 --> 01:02:11.099
Just to get them out of the way.

1091
01:02:11.159 --> 01:02:14.820
Okay, so I am going to press the button.

1092
01:02:17.940 --> 01:02:19.199
It's a Voyager.

1093
01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:23.820
Season six, episode seven.

1094
01:02:23.880 --> 01:02:25.980
Dragon's teeth.

1095
01:02:26.039 --> 01:02:28.139
Oh my god.

1096
01:02:28.199 --> 01:02:37.980
That would be a really interesting one to talk about because it is great in all sorts of ways and really terrible in all sorts of ways.

1097
01:02:39.300 --> 01:02:48.300
I think we've recently just picked the 1st one a couple of times, but I am kind of tempting. me too.

1098
01:02:48.360 --> 01:02:51.539
Like, that's, it's got a good role for Neelix in it.

1099
01:02:51.599 --> 01:02:56.760
Oh, well, Naomi's there and we were complaining that we hadn't seen much of her in Voyager.

1100
01:02:56.820 --> 01:03:01.199
She's got some nice CGI in it as well, some quite impressive CGI.

1101
01:03:01.260 --> 01:03:05.099
This is sort of post-y S9 where they're getting their act together with the landscapes.

1102
01:03:05.159 --> 01:03:08.280
But it does kind of fudge.

1103
01:03:08.340 --> 01:03:14.280
This is a new great threat to the Delta Quadrant and we never, ever hear from them again.

1104
01:03:14.340 --> 01:03:19.380
No, we're trying to make the Vardoir happen and they never do because they look stupid.

1105
01:03:19.440 --> 01:03:22.619
What a fucking...

1106
01:03:23.280 --> 01:03:25.019
Come on.

1107
01:03:25.079 --> 01:03:27.960
It's not like the Dominion, is it?

1108
01:03:28.559 --> 01:03:30.780
Fucking Vardwell.

1109
01:03:30.960 --> 01:03:39.599
I just want to see what they look like, but I remember them looking stupid and that's probably enough to get me on board.

1110
01:03:39.659 --> 01:03:41.400
So let's do it.

1111
01:03:41.460 --> 01:03:42.119
Let's do it.

1112
01:03:42.179 --> 01:03:43.440
Yeah, absolutely.

1113
01:03:51.119 --> 01:04:02.820
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts.

1114
01:04:02.880 --> 01:04:08.340
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Sisrin, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1115
01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:14.039
This episode was recorded on the 1st of July 2025 and released on the 4th of July.

1116
01:04:14.099 --> 01:04:18.360
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager, Dragon's Teeth.

1117
01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:43.380
When we first started doing this, we, you know, the general idea was, whatever we chose, that's what we'd watch.

1118
01:04:43.440 --> 01:04:46.260
Now, obviously, over time, we've...

1119
01:04:46.260 --> 01:04:54.300
No, that was never it because right from day one, I wrote the rule that we have to keep rolling until we pick one.

1120
01:04:54.360 --> 01:05:02.039
A, we pick one that we like, or B, we get embarrassed by how long the process is taking, like they, we had to do it until then.

1121
01:05:02.099 --> 01:05:06.599
So it was always, it was always there that you could just sort of pick from the ones that were rolled.

1122
01:05:06.659 --> 01:05:17.340
But I think, oh, I did have like a 12 picked stretch on one episode where you just kept, you got to the point where you went, no, this is beyond embarrassing.

1123
01:05:17.400 --> 01:05:19.920
And patient straining now.

1124
01:05:19.980 --> 01:05:21.420
It's got to be this one.

1125
01:05:21.960 --> 01:05:27.780
Well, I, you know, like, we've got to do it at some and I think we should definitely do it.

1126
01:05:27.840 --> 01:05:29.639
So that's Dragon's teeth.

1127
01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:32.340
I'm very excited.

1128
01:05:32.400 --> 01:05:34.800
Bring on Naomi Wildman.

1129
01:05:34.860 --> 01:05:35.519
Oh my god.

1130
01:05:37.199 --> 01:05:39.599
All right, just wait, wait.

1131
01:05:39.659 --> 01:05:41.760
It's one we've lost to talk about.

1132
01:05:41.880 --> 01:05:42.780
That's for sure.

1133
01:05:42.840 --> 01:05:44.460
There is plenty to say about that.

1134
01:05:44.519 --> 01:05:54.000
Like, and we can talk about, you know, like just how Voyager does Doctor Who monsters, you know, like it just wants to kind of introduce new monsters all the time.

1135
01:05:54.059 --> 01:05:59.159
And sometimes they take, like the herogen was sort of quite successful, I thought.

1136
01:05:59.159 --> 01:06:04.860
We've even had herogen in, I think we've had herogen in, um, prodigy.

1137
01:06:05.820 --> 01:06:12.360
I literally think they do the, you remember the twist in alliances with the tribe?

1138
01:06:12.420 --> 01:06:13.440
Oh, it's the same thing.

1139
01:06:13.500 --> 01:06:22.380
It's the exactly the same twist where they, you know, meet... a representative of the people that they, the Vardoir worth item with.

1140
01:06:22.440 --> 01:06:25.019
They get, 0 my god, the hardware are evil.

1141
01:06:25.079 --> 01:06:29.460
No, it turns out actually they've been exploited and... something like that.

1142
01:06:29.519 --> 01:06:35.699
I'll think. think I just wonder there's a great shot of now I've said it.

1143
01:06:35.760 --> 01:06:36.539
It's going to be awful.

1144
01:06:36.599 --> 01:06:45.179
There's a great shot of Voyager going through this ruined city whilst there's just like torpedoes flying everywhere.

1145
01:06:45.239 --> 01:06:45.780
Oh, okay.

1146
01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:47.579
Maybe I'll imagine that.

1147
01:06:47.820 --> 01:06:50.519
Maybe that was a dream.

1148
01:06:50.639 --> 01:06:55.139
I can't remember it, but I do remember what the Vardois looked like, obviously.

1149
01:06:55.199 --> 01:06:58.440
And when I tell Robert that we're doing the Vardois, he'll be very excited.

1150
01:06:58.500 --> 01:07:05.400
They sort of look a bit like, you know, that plant that looks like a vagina in the invasion of time.

1151
01:07:05.460 --> 01:07:07.440
When it's sort of open.

1152
01:07:07.440 --> 01:07:09.360
Their heads look a bit like that.

1153
01:07:09.420 --> 01:07:12.179
You know, the sort of they're like flaps that come out.

1154
01:07:12.179 --> 01:07:15.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah. they got weird neck thing happening, don't they?

1155
01:07:15.659 --> 01:07:18.480
Yeah, it sort of goes all the way out and then down.

1156
01:07:18.539 --> 01:07:23.699
It's like, cut price poundland, Cardassians.

1157
01:07:23.760 --> 01:07:25.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1158
01:07:25.619 --> 01:07:28.619
Yeah, but they're sort of lizard people, aren't they?

1159
01:07:28.679 --> 01:07:32.699
Maybe they didn't come back because the man said, yeah, I'm not wearing that again.

1160
01:07:32.760 --> 01:07:34.199
I'm not doing that. all right.

1161
01:07:34.739 --> 01:07:36.179
Yes.

1162
01:07:36.239 --> 01:07:38.519
Because like we have the mail on, don't we?

1163
01:07:38.579 --> 01:07:42.480
Like they try and make them happen and Species 90210.

1164
01:07:43.619 --> 01:07:44.940
They look like Sontaurus, don't they?

1165
01:07:45.059 --> 01:07:45.780
Oh, yeah.

1166
01:07:45.780 --> 01:07:46.500
Who's?

1167
01:07:46.559 --> 01:07:47.699
Yeah, yeah.

1168
01:07:47.760 --> 01:07:50.820
What's the ones in the Herogen?

1169
01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:52.500
They were not terrible design.

1170
01:07:52.559 --> 01:07:53.340
They're fine.

1171
01:07:53.400 --> 01:07:53.940
I think they're good.

1172
01:07:54.059 --> 01:07:56.460
And when they had that giant 2 panda that we did, they were good.

1173
01:07:56.519 --> 01:08:04.139
I appreciated the idea behind Species 8472, but the CGI just wasn't quite there yet for them to get away with it.

1174
01:08:04.199 --> 01:08:06.360
But the idea was good. it was worth trying.

1175
01:08:06.420 --> 01:08:07.019
Yeah.

1176
01:08:07.860 --> 01:08:11.159
And then, of course, the Beaumont...

1177
01:08:11.159 --> 01:08:13.559
Why did they never come back?

1178
01:08:13.619 --> 01:08:17.579
Oh, no, people don't accessorise coat angers enough, you know?

1179
01:08:17.640 --> 01:08:19.800
Yeah, no, people should be wearing coat hangers all the time.

1180
01:08:20.699 --> 01:08:23.640
Maybe I'll turn off next week.