WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-01 at 20:23:07

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Hey, Joe. Hi.

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So, we're back on Deep Space 9 this week.

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Just a couple of weeks after our last visit, but we're in season

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four, episode 23.

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So right near the end, and we're watching to the deaf.

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Now, I really liked this episode the last time we did it when it

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was called Rox and Shoals.

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Yes, yes.

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It is very similar to rocks and shoals, which is better than

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this.

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Yes, I think so too.

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But I thought this was quite solid.

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It's not the sort of thing necessarily that I want Star Trek to do

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all that much.

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And I think if I was watching this at the time and I felt that

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way.

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I was in for a few years of kind of disappointment, probably

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because this is where we go.

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But this is a pretty crucial episode, I think, in establishing who

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the Jem Hadah are.

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And I think it does actually a pretty good job.

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The one Star Trekie thing about it, I thought, was it's us getting

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to know and understand the Jem'Hadar and them getting to know us

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in some way.

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And I thought all of that was actually quite good.

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They do a couple of episodes like this.

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They do the abandoned in series three, which is not long after the

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Jemadar where Odo gets the Jemadar child and he's trying to teach

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it to not be a Jemadar and fails.

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Then you get at the beginning of fall, hippocratic oath, which is

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a great O'Brien Bashir episode where they fall out because Bashir

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wants to help these Jem'adar that are withdrawing from the white

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because they've broken off from the Dominion.

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And O'Brien's like, no, let them die.

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And so we get to know them there.

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There's another examination here and then, like you say, we've

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done rocks and shoals, which is probably the best examiner

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certainly in terms of like riveting drama.

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It's the best examination of the Jemadar there.

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Yeah, I mean, it's actually very similar, isn't it?

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Because it's largely about the conflict between the Vorta and the

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GemHadar, and they're different approaches to kind of the religion

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because, you know, the Dominion is sort of a religious

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organisation in all sorts of ways because the gods are running it

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and it's populated by people who revere them.

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And so there is that conflict.

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And I think, I think what's interesting about rocks and shoals is

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simply that that the vorta wins, that the vorta sends the

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Jem'Hadar to their deaths, that that doesn't really worry or upset

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him in any way.

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He's almost skipping amongst their corpses.

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That's right.

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That's right.

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And they go willingly knowing what they're in for.

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And so a lot of it is about how they're better than the vorta.

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And certainly this episode does that as well, that the gemhadara

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better than the vorta in all sorts of ways, sort of morally, but

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it doesn't have the sting in the tail of them losing to the

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vorta.

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They just kill La Vorta, you know, at the very end.

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Funny, you should mention the vault up because obviously the 1st

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appearance of our Jeffrey Coombs, who, you know, we previously saw

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as the sleazy Tehran in Meridian.

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And like I said, the end of the last episode, you know, they

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watched the rushes coming in, saw how good he was.

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Saw the bit where he got murdered at the end and thought, fucking

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hell, he's a clone.

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We're having him back.

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But thank God he's in this because, like, he is a refreshing

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element of camp in this very masculine, very match.

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I mean, I've got to confess something to you.

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I've started chewing tobacco since watching this.

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I've got a gun.

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I started swaggering around my house, sipping whiskey.

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I mean, all of this stuff about honour and duty and violence and

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no women and like, it isn't for me.

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And I said to you, Mike, there is absolutely, you know, wrong Star

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Trek fans who like that sort of thing.

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And so I am pleased they're cateable because we do get a lot of

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camp in it's nine, don't we?

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We're like, yeah.

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I think what was bad about it is that you essentially just have

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one female character.

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We see Kira at the beginning of the episode for contractual

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reasons.

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In a scene that's quite good.

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I think the setup is very, very good.

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So she's really good, but she's basically not in it.

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And so it is just Dax and Dax is currently a woman but hasn't

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always been one.

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And so there's that, you know, so she gets to play with the boys

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but she is the only woman that we that really speaks in the

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thing.

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And it's just a little bit exhausting.

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It's unusual, isn't it?

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We've just come from Kurtz on Shrek, where we had our, you know, in

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that Picard episode where we had a whole array of fabulous women

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in that.

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And DS9 isn't always like this.

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We've talked about DS9 and there's a whole load of female guest

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characters that come in all the time and, you know, Dax and Kira

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to get a lot. great actresses.

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They get, yeah, they do get, what I did like about thrusting Dax

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into all of this testosterone is just how easily she navigates it

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all.

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How sort of witty she is and then she gets all of her usual dax

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asides.

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But then, of course, she picks up a weapon at the end and she's

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very adept with that as well.

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I mean, she's so fucking cold, isn't she?

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Yeah.

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I think that she has quite a cool subplot as well with one of the

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Germadar, which I kind of like.

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Do you remember the line?

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Don't worry, you'll make honour.

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Elder.

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Yes.

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She's kicking the shit out of the gym.

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It's pretty good I think that is pretty good.

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So we'll get to that.

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So we have basically 3 Jemhadar who speak and one of them is

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Clarence Williams the 3rd as a metaclass.

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Checked how it is IMDb.

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Man, he has been busy.

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He's huge.

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So he was in the mod squad, I think. and he was never not

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working.

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And apparently LeVar knew him and it was his idea to cast him.

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And I think he's great.

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Like, I think he's properly good.

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I didn't think it was quite as good as Scott McDonald in Rocks and

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Shoals because I could sort of tell Arc Clarrence was struggling

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with the makeup a couple of times. like he looks pissed throughout

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the entire thing.

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But I thought he was pretty good.

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Like even before I knew how famous he was, I was pretty struck by

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how great he is.

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We also have the ever reliable Brian Thompson.

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Yeah, that voice, it's the shapeshifting alien from the X-Files.

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It's the vampire from the 1st Buffy episode.

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As soon as he talks, you know exactly who that is.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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He also the judge as well in a buffy episode.

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He does 2 buffies.

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It gets blown up by a flamethrower, doesn't it?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, it's pretty great.

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And he has been a Klingon and he has done some other Star Trek and

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stuff, but he's like big 90s genre guy.

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And so he's sort of super unmistakeable.

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And I thought he was pretty good as well.

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I was quite impressed as well.

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I don't say this very often with LeVar Burton's direction of this

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episode.

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I thought he did some really lovely handheld camera work at the

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start where they're going through all the wreckage of the

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station.

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He shoots a wonderful scene between Odo and Wayoon, where it's

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entire close-ups, and it's getting closer and closer to Coombs's

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face, and he just ain't scared of the camera.

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He's staring right into that lens.

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And then I thought all the fighting at the end was actually quite

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for Star Trek at the time.

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It was quite well done.

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It sort of comes in quickly.

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It's lots of rapid shots.

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I think LeVar on the side of...

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What do we say when it's lacking a bit of pace.

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It can be a little stately sometimes when he's directing.

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But I think he's in tune with what they're trying to do with this

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episode.

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He knows when to give focus to the actors and he knows when, like

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even just when the Jemadar appear on the pad in, there's a

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wonderful framing shot of all of them on the, you know, like they

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do.

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And then Wayoon sort of comes out from behind.

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Just hearing...

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Excuse me, I'm the one who's going to talk to him.

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Thank you.

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And he's totally dwarfed by a lot of them. thought he did a good

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job.

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Yeah.

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So I did read the memory alpha page and apparently it was

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originally much more violent and they shot more of the fight scene

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at the end and a lot of it ended up on the cutting room floor.

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And I think the instinct to be less violent is the right one in

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Star Trek, unless they're going to go and do it properly, which

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they never are, not in the...

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The hell did they do?

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Do they have entrails?

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No, nothing across the gateway?

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Just a lot more deaths and a lot more killing and stuff.

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I mean, like that stuff's okay, but I did have reservations about

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why we were on this mission at all, and because I think that if

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the Jem'Hadar were to say, no, we're not going to serve the

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founders anymore, then that's fair and right.

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And a meta clan might think that's bad and that they need to be

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hunted down, but we certainly shouldn't think that.

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And, you know, I know that we're there to destroy the Iconian

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gateway or whatever.

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But it did seem like there should have been some discussion about

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whether it was okay to go and kill all of those Jem'Hadar.

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I think the way you, in a wonderful scene was just, hey, whenever

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Avery Brooks and Jeffrey Cumins get a scene together, it's gold.

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He does stress that, you know, what if they put a 1000000 Gemadar

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soldiers on all those federation worlds.

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So I think that's the reason why we're going after them.

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So the Iconian Gateway thing is the thing that makes it work

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morally.

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But in an ordinary situation, I guess, maybe that's what

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Hippocratic oath is kind of doing, that if Jem'adar wanted to

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throw off their kind of dominion oppressors, we as Starfleet

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should be there kind of helping them, I think.

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It's where Ross and Shoals does this better because there is a

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huge debate as to whether they should actually execute those

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Gemadara at the end.

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And do you remember Garak's there going, you know, humans have

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rules in war, which means you, you know, you're less efficient

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than you could be.

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And Cisco goes, look, this isn't a debate.

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Like everyone ships in with their reasons, but enough people are

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saying, no, we shouldn't do this.

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And no one's saying that here, are they?

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No, no.

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So it's a little bit like, I don't know that rocks and shoals is

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hugely morally complex, but it's certainly more complex than

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this.

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And this is a sort of jolly adventure tale.

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And that's fine.

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Like Star Trek can absolutely do that.

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And what it brings to the table, though, is the cultural stuff

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which I just thought was really great and was just scene after

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scene of people with incompatible world views talking to one

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another.

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And some of that was very interesting and some of it was even

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funny.

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So I was on board.

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I mean, I hope I've got something to say in the episode, but I've

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got 3 more very quick things to say, because my 3 favourite things

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about this was one, I think, because it leans into Odo's journey

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throughout the series.

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That, for me, might be my favourite sort of character through line

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throughout the entire series, a wonderful scene where Wei Yun says

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do you want to come back because they are waiting for you?

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And he's like, no, no, I'm not coming back.

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I just want to end this conversation.

247
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Is that the 1st time we hear that?

248
00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:18.059
What, that he's welcome back?

249
00:12:18.059 --> 00:12:21.299
That, that he might want to go back?

250
00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:22.259
That he's welcome back.

251
00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:22.860
They want him back.

252
00:12:22.860 --> 00:12:24.000
Or do you hear that in the search?

253
00:12:24.059 --> 00:12:26.759
No, it's that two-parter in serious free.

254
00:12:26.820 --> 00:12:28.259
Do you remember when Garak interrogated him?

255
00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:29.279
He goes, I want to go home.

256
00:12:29.340 --> 00:12:31.980
He's like, yeah, but it's all flaky and horrible.

257
00:12:32.039 --> 00:12:35.580
So we know he wants to, but then we're just about to have the

258
00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:40.440
finale where he's punished for murdering one of his own kind of

259
00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:41.159
the industry.

260
00:12:41.220 --> 00:12:44.820
It's just such a great journey that Odo goes on and I think where

261
00:12:44.820 --> 00:12:46.200
it ends up is pretty cool as well.

262
00:12:46.259 --> 00:12:48.059
So I like that that's in here.

263
00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:50.340
Two, I just think the structure of this is really good.

264
00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:55.500
The fact that we have like an exciting opening and then we do like

265
00:12:55.500 --> 00:12:56.879
the hustle style right.

266
00:12:56.940 --> 00:13:00.179
This is how we're going to do the heist to get the Iconian Gateway

267
00:13:00.179 --> 00:13:02.340
and then, of course, they land and it all goes horribly wrong.

268
00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:04.139
Like every episode of Hustle.

269
00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:07.320
So I just thought the structure of the piece was really, really

270
00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:07.500
good.

271
00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:10.320
And the 3rd thing is, I mean, Jeffrey Coombs.

272
00:13:10.379 --> 00:13:15.059
Just Jeffrey Coombs, who it is really, really funny.

273
00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:16.860
He's really charismatic.

274
00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:19.320
He's a bit creepy. as well.

275
00:13:19.379 --> 00:13:23.580
And you can absolutely see why as soon as they set their eyes on

276
00:13:23.580 --> 00:13:27.600
him in this role that they said, right, semi-regular and then come

277
00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:29.460
the last series, almost a regular.

278
00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:30.899
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

279
00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:35.159
He is pretty great I love how memory alpha calls him like kind of

280
00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:40.799
ret consume as Wayon 4 because of course he wasn't that in the

281
00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:41.580
episode at all.

282
00:13:41.700 --> 00:13:43.259
He was just Waoon.

283
00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:48.539
And he is better than Keevan in Rocks and Shoals, but Keevan is

284
00:13:48.539 --> 00:13:50.879
also brilliant in a different way, I think.

285
00:13:50.940 --> 00:13:56.460
I think the only water that ever manages to come close to toppling

286
00:13:56.460 --> 00:13:59.460
him is that woman attacking the wind.

287
00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:00.720
Do you remember that camp one?

288
00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:05.639
And even better when Kira was playing her again.

289
00:14:05.700 --> 00:14:10.500
We meet 22 water women and they don't really run with it, which is

290
00:14:10.500 --> 00:14:13.320
a shame because, you know, we need more great camp women.

291
00:14:13.379 --> 00:14:15.299
Look at how I win in Star Trek.

292
00:14:15.659 --> 00:14:19.860
Well, do you fancy sort of becoming a man for 45 minutes?

293
00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:20.759
Oh my god.

294
00:14:20.820 --> 00:14:22.740
I can smell the testosterone already.

295
00:14:22.980 --> 00:14:26.519
I am going to count us in in that case.

296
00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:34.080
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

297
00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:39.000
Okay, right, establish the defiant.

298
00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:40.019
Yes.

299
00:14:40.019 --> 00:14:41.700
Where we do spend a lot of the episode.

300
00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:44.580
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

301
00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:46.259
It's funny actually, isn't it?

302
00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:49.200
Because, okay, we're heading back to Deep Space 9.

303
00:14:49.259 --> 00:14:52.740
I mean, I kind of like this.

304
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:54.779
Now, what is happening here?

305
00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:55.320
Oh.

306
00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:57.059
Oh, what's this?

307
00:14:57.120 --> 00:14:58.259
This is super interesting.

308
00:14:58.379 --> 00:15:01.620
So I hadn't really thought about this after watching the episode

309
00:15:01.620 --> 00:15:06.299
through, but here is Dax talking about her past life when she's a

310
00:15:06.299 --> 00:15:09.960
woman and has a baby and the baby crawls into bed with her and

311
00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:15.299
it's absolutely kind of like a female thing and we're about to

312
00:15:15.299 --> 00:15:18.299
kind of see her be surrounded by men.

313
00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:22.320
And then this thing about sitting in wharf's chair.

314
00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:26.279
It doesn't quite go how you think it's gonna go, I think.

315
00:15:26.700 --> 00:15:31.559
No, but I am absolutely that person that has my chair in the

316
00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:32.100
canteen.

317
00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:32.700
All right?

318
00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:34.320
Oh, no.

319
00:15:34.379 --> 00:15:35.399
That's terrible.

320
00:15:35.460 --> 00:15:39.120
I like the one in the corner where you can see the whole room.

321
00:15:39.179 --> 00:15:41.460
You can see everyone who's coming and going and you can just about

322
00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:43.620
hear the gots from every table, you know?

323
00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:45.539
So I get it.

324
00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:47.639
I don't often empathise with warf, but I get it.

325
00:15:47.700 --> 00:15:50.460
Do you notice he went straight for the prune juice?

326
00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:52.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

327
00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:56.399
I mean, geez, Nate, he must be so regularly about stuff he

328
00:15:56.399 --> 00:15:56.639
drinks.

329
00:15:56.700 --> 00:15:59.940
Look at the look.

330
00:15:59.940 --> 00:16:00.720
I know.

331
00:16:00.779 --> 00:16:04.019
But it doesn't quite go how you think.

332
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:04.919
Do you know what I mean?

333
00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:07.019
Because he just keeps himself the same, isn't it?

334
00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:07.620
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

335
00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:11.820
But again, in an episode that's going to be about masculinity in

336
00:16:11.820 --> 00:16:15.539
an episode in which Worf gets challenged a couple of times.

337
00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:19.980
Um, you know, it is a thing, I think.

338
00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:21.720
Oh, this shot's amazing.

339
00:16:21.899 --> 00:16:24.539
What, of the upper pylon?

340
00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:25.320
Yeah, I know.

341
00:16:25.379 --> 00:16:28.980
I do remember seeing a review at the time where they went, one of

342
00:16:28.980 --> 00:16:32.039
the upper pylons was blown up and they deal with it in 5 minutes.

343
00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:33.120
Are you for real?

344
00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:36.120
It's a great inn.

345
00:16:36.179 --> 00:16:37.559
It's a great inn.

346
00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:39.179
No, the state Akira's arm.

347
00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:40.019
I know, I know.

348
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:40.559
I know.

349
00:16:40.620 --> 00:16:42.840
Oh, here's contractual obligation, Quark.

350
00:16:42.899 --> 00:16:44.639
Has anyone seen my brother, Rom?

351
00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:48.240
I actually really like this scene, actually, too.

352
00:16:48.299 --> 00:16:51.360
Like, he's really, really worried about ROM.

353
00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:54.419
And then, of course, it turns on its head.

354
00:16:54.419 --> 00:16:55.320
That would be nice to him.

355
00:16:55.379 --> 00:16:56.820
Has anyone seen Nathan?

356
00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:58.379
He's over there.

357
00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:00.600
Oh, I'm going to fucking kill him when I see him.

358
00:17:00.899 --> 00:17:06.180
But here's properly concerned for him, you know, like he's worried

359
00:17:06.180 --> 00:17:06.960
about how he feels.

360
00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:10.859
There was a wonderful bit of direction there where Kira's given

361
00:17:10.859 --> 00:17:13.619
the report of everything that's going on, and then Lavar just

362
00:17:13.619 --> 00:17:17.039
takes the camera away from her to Bashir dealing with somebody, but

363
00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:18.119
you can still hear her talking.

364
00:17:18.180 --> 00:17:21.359
So there's just lots of chaos, you know, well, I mean.

365
00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:23.460
It's a tiny corridor.

366
00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:31.500
Over 100 wounded, apparently.

367
00:17:31.619 --> 00:17:33.119
We could only say three, three.

368
00:17:33.180 --> 00:17:34.559
Yeah, that's right.

369
00:17:34.619 --> 00:17:37.920
Excuse me, they have bothered to put a girder on the floor

370
00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:38.220
though.

371
00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:42.420
I have done that and they've set these lights to flash, so...

372
00:17:43.859 --> 00:17:44.700
I like how quick this is.

373
00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:46.140
It's like, right, let's get after them.

374
00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:47.700
And then they're on the divine and gone.

375
00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:48.599
I think it's good.

376
00:17:48.660 --> 00:17:49.740
I think it's really.

377
00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:50.400
Yep.

378
00:17:50.460 --> 00:17:52.500
And there's a proper scale.

379
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:53.940
Sorry.

380
00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:56.519
I was just going to say, I really don't like her series 4 here.

381
00:17:56.579 --> 00:17:57.420
Yeah.

382
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:03.059
One, see, one thing is because these are all physical models, you

383
00:18:03.059 --> 00:18:04.019
can't distress them.

384
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:08.640
You know, remember when the NXO one was all trashed in series

385
00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:09.720
three.

386
00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:12.240
Oh, of Enterprise.

387
00:18:12.299 --> 00:18:16.079
You can't do that here because it's an actual physical model.

388
00:18:16.140 --> 00:18:20.099
And they've only just learned to do that CG thing, which is what

389
00:18:20.099 --> 00:18:22.140
they did with that.

390
00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:22.920
What do you think they did then?

391
00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:24.900
They just built an extra pile and blew it up.

392
00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:25.559
No, no, no.

393
00:18:25.619 --> 00:18:27.000
They painted it out of the computer afterwards.

394
00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:28.019
It's really great.

395
00:18:28.019 --> 00:18:29.519
Because you can see it's sort of floating.

396
00:18:29.579 --> 00:18:34.140
Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's pretty good It's not quite as good as what

397
00:18:34.140 --> 00:18:34.680
would happen now.

398
00:18:34.740 --> 00:18:35.759
Because it will be now.

399
00:18:35.819 --> 00:18:39.240
This is 30 years old this episode, just bad.

400
00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:42.480
I think I just saw Spock there in the dust from that meteor.

401
00:18:43.619 --> 00:18:45.539
I don't really.

402
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:46.200
I don't.

403
00:18:46.259 --> 00:18:47.519
Oh my god.

404
00:18:47.579 --> 00:18:48.359
So that's it, right?

405
00:18:48.420 --> 00:18:52.559
With bangs straight in and we're promising an action exciting

406
00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:53.700
we're chasing the Jemadar.

407
00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:54.599
Yeah, yeah.

408
00:18:54.660 --> 00:18:55.619
Yes.

409
00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:00.960
So, and, like, I think, I think they do quite a good job with the

410
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:01.799
Jem'Hadar.

411
00:19:01.859 --> 00:19:03.539
So in that episode.

412
00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:05.940
It's the finale of season two, is it?

413
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.279
Yeah, called the Jemadar.

414
00:19:08.339 --> 00:19:12.420
And they introduced the Germadar, and they introduced the Vorta

415
00:19:12.420 --> 00:19:16.140
and that's all we know about the Dominion at this point, or what

416
00:19:16.140 --> 00:19:16.619
is it?

417
00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:21.720
Um, they take our the Bajoran colony, which is on the other side

418
00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:23.579
of the station.

419
00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.880
They basically say if you come back into the Gamma Quadrant, where

420
00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:27.599
Lavia.

421
00:19:27.660 --> 00:19:29.880
And that's the threat at the end of the episode.

422
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:31.259
I'm paraphrasing.

423
00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:31.859
You get what I mean?

424
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:32.460
Yeah.

425
00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:35.579
I would love it if they said, well, have you?

426
00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:36.599
But that's very English.

427
00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:40.680
Oh, look, this O'Brien, look, flying through space with his bit of

428
00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:42.480
he's repairing the upper pile on there, look.

429
00:19:42.539 --> 00:19:43.740
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go.

430
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:48.539
It's never been more appropriate, that one special effect shot.

431
00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:52.319
Do you think the other one is that grumpy lady from The Forsaken

432
00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:54.660
in the gray universe?

433
00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:55.380
Tesco.

434
00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:55.799
Yeah.

435
00:19:55.859 --> 00:19:57.119
No, not Tesco.

436
00:19:57.180 --> 00:19:58.680
She's an ambassador.

437
00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:02.099
The grumpy lady who O'Brien was delivering all this, all the

438
00:20:02.099 --> 00:20:03.119
exposition to.

439
00:20:03.299 --> 00:20:05.940
Oh, God, what was her name?

440
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:07.079
The Petron woman.

441
00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:08.279
Yeah, yeah, not Nila.

442
00:20:08.339 --> 00:20:10.500
She was the evil one that tried to kill Pryal.

443
00:20:10.859 --> 00:20:13.980
So much happens on this station, honestly.

444
00:20:14.819 --> 00:20:19.019
I am pleased, though, that the bulk is on defiant sets.

445
00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:20.460
I do like the defiance sets.

446
00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:21.720
I like how cramp they are.

447
00:20:21.779 --> 00:20:23.759
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

448
00:20:23.819 --> 00:20:28.980
Yeah, and the colour thing, like, it's still mostly that brown

449
00:20:28.980 --> 00:20:31.680
colour that the station has as well.

450
00:20:31.740 --> 00:20:33.539
So it still feels of a piece.

451
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:38.640
Yeah, it's tiny, that bridge is so small. admitted a magneton

452
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.039
pulse to hire trace of your whereabouts?

453
00:20:41.099 --> 00:20:42.900
Yeah, pretty much all the time.

454
00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:43.559
Why?

455
00:20:43.619 --> 00:20:44.279
you up to?

456
00:20:44.339 --> 00:20:46.559
Of, you know, just some light adultery, usually.

457
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:55.500
So I thought Avery delivered that line about standing guard over

458
00:20:55.500 --> 00:20:59.160
the station 26 hours a day as if it was meant to be an

459
00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:02.700
exaggeration, like a rhetorical exaggeration, that they were going

460
00:21:02.700 --> 00:21:05.940
to be so on all the time that they would be there 26 hours a day.

461
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:07.500
But of course, it's not that.

462
00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:10.920
It is that Bajor has long days, right?

463
00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:13.079
It, absolutely.

464
00:21:13.140 --> 00:21:17.279
And there is a long running thing about 4 shift rotations on

465
00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:21.839
Twitter, but I just get so bored here in the administration on

466
00:21:22.019 --> 00:21:22.680
don't want to know.

467
00:21:22.740 --> 00:21:23.220
Yeah.

468
00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:26.099
Well, you know, the administration at my own work is boring

469
00:21:26.099 --> 00:21:26.519
enough.

470
00:21:26.579 --> 00:21:27.480
I don't need to hear about this.

471
00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:29.519
This is another good twist, though, isn't it?

472
00:21:29.579 --> 00:21:31.680
Because we think we're going after the Gem'adar, and then there's

473
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:33.299
a damage, Gem'adar. the hell's going on?

474
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:34.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

475
00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:35.220
Yeah, yeah.

476
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:37.079
And it's about to explode.

477
00:21:37.140 --> 00:21:39.779
And so, of course, we rescue them because of course, we do.

478
00:21:40.619 --> 00:21:44.640
Oh, I love all these, you know, soldiers going down the corridor

479
00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:45.720
there, over their shoulders.

480
00:21:45.779 --> 00:21:46.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

481
00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:48.660
It's a it's a pretty good shot too.

482
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:51.660
Yeah, I think LaFar's doing a pretty good job of this.

483
00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:53.940
But he feels this tiny set full of people.

484
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:56.640
So there's what, one, two, three, four, five, 6 security offices

485
00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:57.779
plus the free regulars.

486
00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:01.079
And then I think 6 Gemadar beam in and way.

487
00:22:01.140 --> 00:22:02.700
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

488
00:22:02.819 --> 00:22:05.640
It's like, come on, I'm going to spend all my money on latex this

489
00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:05.819
week.

490
00:22:06.180 --> 00:22:10.619
Like, where it's completely hidden, isn't he?

491
00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:12.539
Like, you don't even know that he's there.

492
00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:16.079
Look at that smug look on Brian Thompson's face.

493
00:22:16.140 --> 00:22:17.700
You just called mistaken, okay?

494
00:22:18.779 --> 00:22:21.599
There was a moment a 2nd ago, right?

495
00:22:21.660 --> 00:22:25.559
where O'Brien said to Wolf, because Wolf goes, put in the defiant

496
00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:27.900
on guard duty would be a waste of resources.

497
00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:30.359
And Bryce says, well, you wouldn't say that if you had family on

498
00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:30.779
the station.

499
00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:34.980
I just like those little bikes and get on DS9 that you don't

500
00:22:34.980 --> 00:22:36.240
really, you're Voyager.

501
00:22:36.299 --> 00:22:36.539
Hello?

502
00:22:36.599 --> 00:22:37.680
No.

503
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:39.779
Oh, here he is.

504
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:43.380
And he's so oily, isn't he?

505
00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:45.359
He's so smarmy.

506
00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:46.140
It's wonderful.

507
00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:47.220
He's so good.

508
00:22:47.940 --> 00:22:52.140
I don't trust him for a second, but actually, his motives are

509
00:22:52.140 --> 00:22:53.519
honourable in this, aren't they?

510
00:22:53.579 --> 00:22:55.500
everything he says is true.

511
00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:57.599
Yeah, yeah.

512
00:22:57.660 --> 00:23:02.700
The thing, I think that the thing that we don't like him, that

513
00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:06.599
makes us not like him more than anything else, he's disregard for

514
00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:08.579
the Jem'Hadar.

515
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:09.720
Not like him.

516
00:23:09.779 --> 00:23:11.039
Don't you like Wayoon?

517
00:23:11.099 --> 00:23:12.000
I think he's.

518
00:23:12.059 --> 00:23:13.980
Oh, no, no, but why he's a bad guy.

519
00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:17.519
He's bad because he's rude about the Jem'Hadar.

520
00:23:18.660 --> 00:23:20.460
Oh, he's so...

521
00:23:20.519 --> 00:23:21.180
Look at him.

522
00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:24.359
Leaning forward to her little knot.

523
00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:28.380
You know, Nathan, I probably know things about you.

524
00:23:28.380 --> 00:23:29.819
You don't know about yourself, you know.

525
00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:34.680
Isn't he about to offer him sort of rule like you could rule the

526
00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:36.420
galaxy alongside us or whatever?

527
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:39.900
Absolute ruler of the Federation.

528
00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:40.920
That's it.

529
00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:41.460
That's it.

530
00:23:42.779 --> 00:23:45.480
Do you know the bit and call to arms?

531
00:23:45.539 --> 00:23:49.799
Do you remember that bit between Cisco and where um where is going

532
00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:53.460
oh, all those children on Cardassia that we helped save?

533
00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:57.779
They were starving on the streets and sisters going, oh God, well

534
00:23:57.779 --> 00:23:59.339
don't worry, we won't attack them.

535
00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:01.980
We won't put up the minefield and then it cuts to the next scene.

536
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:04.680
Right, get that minefield going quickly.

537
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:06.599
It's great.

538
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:11.039
Hey, the way he delivers his line because he gets quite

539
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:14.339
complicated speeches to say.

540
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:15.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

541
00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:18.839
Yeah, it just, it's so fluidic the way it's really good.

542
00:24:18.900 --> 00:24:19.859
He is probably good.

543
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:24.720
And they, yes, he is particularly wordy compared to them as well.

544
00:24:24.779 --> 00:24:27.359
I mean, that's one of the reasons why he's less masculine than

545
00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:27.599
them.

546
00:24:27.660 --> 00:24:29.460
You know, he never stops talking.

547
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:33.119
He's sort of camp and obsequious, all of that sort of thing.

548
00:24:33.180 --> 00:24:33.900
Yeah.

549
00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:35.759
Now, the makeup.

550
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.400
Yes, I know.

551
00:24:38.460 --> 00:24:42.119
I know it's flaking, and unfortunately, when we get those close

552
00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:47.220
ups later, um, it is extremely apparent how much it's flaking.

553
00:24:47.579 --> 00:24:49.980
Yeah, I've, yeah.

554
00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:53.099
I mean, I'm not super sold on the design and I think the hair

555
00:24:53.099 --> 00:24:56.099
looks stupid and I think, you know, like it's all a little bit

556
00:24:56.099 --> 00:24:56.819
unfortunate.

557
00:24:56.940 --> 00:24:59.279
But it's kind of what they go with.

558
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:03.839
At this point, Nathan, I'm just used to ridiculous looking aliens

559
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:04.140
you know?

560
00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:06.059
Have we had the Beaumar yet?

561
00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:07.500
No, they're coming in 2 years time.

562
00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:15.359
So what I think, though, is that Odo's makeup is much worse in

563
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:17.700
series 4 than it was in series one.

564
00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:23.700
And the close-ups are not kind to him in this episode.

565
00:25:23.940 --> 00:25:26.220
They put more layers on him.

566
00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:30.240
He's closer to his skin in series one.

567
00:25:30.299 --> 00:25:31.019
That's right.

568
00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:35.279
So they've built up his face and his eyes are in a sort of sunken

569
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:40.799
pit of latex and as a result, the latex doesn't join properly.

570
00:25:40.859 --> 00:25:45.599
He looks like a sort of 70s Doctor Who monster where he's got like

571
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:47.880
his face visible under the mask.

572
00:25:47.940 --> 00:25:50.339
He did say in the Forsaken.

573
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:51.720
He doesn't do faces very well.

574
00:25:51.779 --> 00:25:54.180
But he's gotten worse at doing them.

575
00:25:54.420 --> 00:25:57.240
Yeah, I just think it's a bad idea.

576
00:25:57.299 --> 00:25:58.680
It was always a dumb idea.

577
00:25:58.740 --> 00:26:04.019
I think, to put Renee in that makeup, but they just make it worse

578
00:26:04.019 --> 00:26:07.440
and worse rather than making it more and more subtle, I think, or

579
00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:10.619
just like just less impactful.

580
00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:16.019
It's ridiculous I really think you do get a sense of the stakes in

581
00:26:16.019 --> 00:26:16.619
this episode.

582
00:26:16.680 --> 00:26:20.880
He basically says, you know, these Jemadar, if they can reproduce

583
00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:23.759
our projections are that they could take over the Dominion.

584
00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:25.380
It's all world, world payroll.

585
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:28.680
But you know, we've already seen the impact of what the Dominion

586
00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:31.680
can do in various episodes and the Jem'adar.

587
00:26:31.740 --> 00:26:35.279
Like there's that episode in series 2 shadow play with the

588
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:38.579
hologramatic city where they completely destroy the city and the

589
00:26:38.579 --> 00:26:41.700
man recreated it as a hologram because he's the only one that

590
00:26:41.700 --> 00:26:42.180
survived.

591
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:47.279
The quickening, which is a virus that they introduce into the

592
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:49.380
people. they all started dying out.

593
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:53.579
So we do understand that if they gain control of a piece of

594
00:26:53.579 --> 00:26:56.519
technology this powerful, it's bad news.

595
00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:00.779
So this, I think, is interesting, this beer, right?

596
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:06.539
So when what Cisco says is that the Germadar obey you because

597
00:27:06.539 --> 00:27:08.220
they're addicted to white.

598
00:27:08.220 --> 00:27:12.299
Oh, they're because they're genetically engineered to believe that

599
00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:14.400
the founders are gods and to obey them.

600
00:27:14.460 --> 00:27:16.859
And of course, they're addicted to wine.

601
00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:19.619
And that's why they obey.

602
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:24.779
And in fact, we learn from a meta clan that that's not why they

603
00:27:24.779 --> 00:27:27.660
obey at all that that stuff wasn't necessary.

604
00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:30.960
They obey because they're honourable people in some sense.

605
00:27:31.019 --> 00:27:32.039
Do you know what I mean?

606
00:27:32.099 --> 00:27:36.839
Like they have a proper ethic and they're loyal and they do what

607
00:27:36.839 --> 00:27:37.619
they're told.

608
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:41.579
And so they're contrasted with Wayoon, who still is doing what

609
00:27:41.579 --> 00:27:45.359
he's told in his own way, but doesn't respect them, I think.

610
00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:50.220
Again, it's more interesting in rocks and shoals because there's

611
00:27:50.220 --> 00:27:54.059
literally one vial of white to go around all those Gemadar and

612
00:27:54.059 --> 00:27:56.220
they're all suffering from withdrawal.

613
00:27:56.279 --> 00:28:00.119
And there's no reason for them to go through with their sort of

614
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:02.160
suicide mission and they still do it.

615
00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:03.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

616
00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:06.660
I just think Ron Moore sort of took, mate, you might have looked

617
00:28:06.660 --> 00:28:07.859
at this and gone, do you know what?

618
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:13.500
If I could just put this into a more engaging situation.

619
00:28:13.559 --> 00:28:14.759
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

620
00:28:14.819 --> 00:28:17.460
I mean, I think this situation is fun.

621
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:21.660
I think the other one is pretty bleak and it has a pretty good

622
00:28:21.660 --> 00:28:22.140
ending.

623
00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:24.720
But you sort of look at, though.

624
00:28:24.779 --> 00:28:26.099
Do you remember all that location working?

625
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:27.299
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

626
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:29.099
Yeah, yeah, that was pretty good.

627
00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:30.420
Yeah, look at this makeup.

628
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:31.200
Look at his eyes.

629
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:34.380
Like the makeup isn't sticking to an AC.

630
00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:36.359
I've never stopped going on about, you know, when he tore that

631
00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:40.079
mask off at the end of the series 6. he wasn't sure whether they

632
00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:42.180
were coming back for 7 at this point and so there you go, fucking

633
00:28:42.180 --> 00:28:42.599
have it.

634
00:28:44.579 --> 00:28:50.279
Whereas whereas Michael is wearing the latex with a plom.

635
00:28:50.339 --> 00:28:55.559
He's, uh, what I think it shows, though, is just how good Renee is

636
00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:58.619
because he's still manages to remote through Hill, you know?

637
00:28:58.680 --> 00:28:59.279
Yeah, absolutely.

638
00:28:59.339 --> 00:29:00.960
But you are right.

639
00:29:01.019 --> 00:29:03.539
Remember when we watched Far Beyond the Stars, and he was just an

640
00:29:03.539 --> 00:29:03.960
actor.

641
00:29:04.019 --> 00:29:05.819
Yeah, it's incredible.

642
00:29:06.180 --> 00:29:09.420
See, this banter is actually funny, isn't it?

643
00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:12.539
You know, like there's going to be canapes in the lounge, you know

644
00:29:12.539 --> 00:29:13.740
I forgot my address uniform.

645
00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:17.759
Like, that's actually quite funny banter, and it's playing against

646
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:23.460
just how incredibly serious and dull Gemadara, you know, like, um

647
00:29:23.460 --> 00:29:25.380
and I kind of like that.

648
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:26.579
I think that worked well.

649
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:30.299
You know, you sent me a picture, but I did go looking as well.

650
00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:30.539
Yeah.

651
00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:32.759
Clarence Williams is such a beautiful man.

652
00:29:32.819 --> 00:29:34.500
How could they make him look like this?

653
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:36.660
I think you can still tell.

654
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:41.339
You know, like, I mean, you've got to squint a bit.

655
00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:42.720
I think he's probably hard.

656
00:29:42.779 --> 00:29:45.779
Cracked skin, bones coming out of his head.

657
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:46.440
I mean come on.

658
00:29:46.500 --> 00:29:49.259
Well, no, I know, but you've got his eyes and his mouth, you know

659
00:29:49.259 --> 00:29:51.720
and that's sometimes enough.

660
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:52.559
He does.

661
00:29:52.740 --> 00:29:54.480
It looks like he might be a good kisser, you know.

662
00:29:54.539 --> 00:29:55.140
Yes.

663
00:29:55.200 --> 00:30:00.180
I also think there's one scene where he tears up after he kills

664
00:30:00.180 --> 00:30:01.799
Brian Thompson's character.

665
00:30:01.859 --> 00:30:03.960
Oh, I figured that was just the makeup.

666
00:30:04.019 --> 00:30:05.640
I don't think it is.

667
00:30:05.700 --> 00:30:07.019
I don't think it is.

668
00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:10.200
I think it's a really strange choice and I think it's super

669
00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:11.579
effective in that scene.

670
00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:14.039
Do you know, I've just thought of another...

671
00:30:14.099 --> 00:30:16.859
It's a really good thread sort of examined in the Gemini.

672
00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:19.799
Do you remember in the 2 parter when Warf and Martok are fighting

673
00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:20.400
in that ring?

674
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:23.160
And the Gemadar there said, I yield.

675
00:30:23.220 --> 00:30:25.019
You know, he's an honourable man.

676
00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:25.920
That's another good thing.

677
00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:28.079
No, he says, all I can do is kill him.

678
00:30:28.140 --> 00:30:29.220
I can't make him yield.

679
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:30.660
All I can do is kill him.

680
00:30:30.660 --> 00:30:32.880
Doesn't interest me. holds my interest, he says.

681
00:30:32.940 --> 00:30:33.779
Yeah.

682
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:34.319
Yeah.

683
00:30:34.380 --> 00:30:37.980
It's a theme, isn't it, that the gemadar are more honourable than

684
00:30:37.980 --> 00:30:38.759
the vorta?

685
00:30:38.819 --> 00:30:42.359
Because the voice is cowardly. even though I do like the episode

686
00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:44.039
and I know you're less keen.

687
00:30:44.099 --> 00:30:49.440
It's far less interesting in the siege of AR 558 because they're

688
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.619
just ruthless killers in that, aren't they?

689
00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:56.220
We only see from the point of view of the Federation camp with

690
00:30:56.220 --> 00:30:56.579
them coming.

691
00:30:56.700 --> 00:30:58.079
Yes, yeah, yeah.

692
00:30:58.140 --> 00:31:00.539
But you never have scenes with them talking or anything like

693
00:31:00.539 --> 00:31:00.720
that.

694
00:31:00.779 --> 00:31:02.099
They just come in with garlands.

695
00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:06.480
I mean, Nathan, I remember when they 1st appeared in when they

696
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:10.440
were in the search, they attack the Defiant and they go all out on

697
00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:13.500
like a 5 minute action scene where they're kicking the shit out of

698
00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:16.980
every regular. really wanted you to feel the impact of how

699
00:31:16.980 --> 00:31:17.940
powerful they are.

700
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:20.519
Yeah, I think they do a good job.

701
00:31:20.579 --> 00:31:21.660
I think they're good.

702
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:23.160
I think they're interesting, you know.

703
00:31:23.220 --> 00:31:28.259
You know how we had, you know, the Zindi just developed in one

704
00:31:28.259 --> 00:31:31.380
season and trying to make them interesting and have

705
00:31:31.380 --> 00:31:33.240
interrelationships between each other.

706
00:31:33.299 --> 00:31:37.559
Whereas this is just so skilfully done in just a handful of

707
00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:38.700
episodes across a few years.

708
00:31:38.819 --> 00:31:42.960
I'm very pleased that somebody said, well, can't we just bomb it

709
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:44.339
from orbit, for God's sakes.

710
00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:48.599
But the excuse as to why they go, oh, unfortunately, the structure

711
00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:49.680
is made from neutronium.

712
00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:55.440
It's the most Star Trek substance ever.

713
00:31:55.920 --> 00:31:59.519
Normally they're putting in line, so we don't have to do action

714
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:00.240
sequence.

715
00:32:00.299 --> 00:32:01.859
Now they're making excuses, so we do.

716
00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:06.539
Look at why you with his hands together.

717
00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:08.099
It's like...

718
00:32:08.099 --> 00:32:10.500
Yeah, it's strange.

719
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:13.740
You remember when I said to you that Coombe said in that big

720
00:32:13.740 --> 00:32:15.180
interview with the Enterprise cast?

721
00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:16.140
You know, I'd done my time.

722
00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:17.759
I've done a lot of work for you.

723
00:32:17.819 --> 00:32:20.220
Good work and I, you know what?

724
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:22.500
You see it in every DS9 episode, don't you?

725
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:25.319
Like, he's playing every scene brilliantly.

726
00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:29.519
So extra points here for Avery's line of dialogue, which has the

727
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:31.859
word zigurat in it, like that's pretty great.

728
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:35.279
Don't hear that often enough to it in Star Trek.

729
00:32:35.339 --> 00:32:37.740
He will say amen later as well.

730
00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:38.819
Does he?

731
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:39.660
Yeah, yeah.

732
00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:41.460
These 2 Gemadar.

733
00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:43.200
They start gossiping with each other.

734
00:32:43.259 --> 00:32:45.119
He goes, you know what?

735
00:32:45.180 --> 00:32:47.039
I told you that the Klingons were a bit rubbish.

736
00:32:47.099 --> 00:32:48.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

737
00:32:48.539 --> 00:32:52.319
So here's Brian Thompson doing his hero moment.

738
00:32:52.619 --> 00:32:56.220
You might remember me from Buffy Wolf, right?

739
00:32:56.339 --> 00:32:57.119
Twice.

740
00:32:57.180 --> 00:33:03.299
And I had an ice pick in the X-Files.

741
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:05.940
I was Julian Anson in one episode.

742
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:06.480
All right.

743
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:11.519
Yeah, this stuff is all sort of bullshit, isn't it, really?

744
00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:14.279
Oh, no, I've killed mine.

745
00:33:14.339 --> 00:33:17.099
You killed your blah, blah, blah. whatever.

746
00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:21.839
No, let's get to the, you know, the, although it was more fun in

747
00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:25.019
batter, bing, batter, bang, you know, when they did this.

748
00:33:25.079 --> 00:33:27.240
Yeah, it was far more fun in that.

749
00:33:27.299 --> 00:33:30.059
But I do like that we're tricked into thinking, okay, we're

750
00:33:30.059 --> 00:33:30.480
already in there.

751
00:33:30.539 --> 00:33:31.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

752
00:33:32.039 --> 00:33:32.640
Yeah, yeah.

753
00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:36.420
Although the Zigurat does look remarkably like the sets of the

754
00:33:36.420 --> 00:33:37.259
Defiant, doesn't it?

755
00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:40.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

756
00:33:40.140 --> 00:33:40.440
Yeah.

757
00:33:40.500 --> 00:33:43.259
I actually think the sets in the cigarette are actually pretty

758
00:33:43.259 --> 00:33:44.099
well designed.

759
00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:45.000
They are pretty good.

760
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:47.039
They're quite big, aren't they?

761
00:33:47.099 --> 00:33:48.240
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

762
00:33:48.299 --> 00:33:50.819
Unlike these sets here in the defiant.

763
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:53.940
But is supposed to be a submarine, isn't it?

764
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:55.140
Isn't that the idea?

765
00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:56.700
Here's what I think is great.

766
00:33:56.759 --> 00:34:00.779
We came back from the ad break and I suddenly had no fucking idea

767
00:34:00.779 --> 00:34:03.299
what was going on in this scene.

768
00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:06.299
So it's a it's a drill, isn't it?

769
00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:07.799
It's a simulation.

770
00:34:08.460 --> 00:34:14.039
They're just practising getting in, but it's, I just thought, oh

771
00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:17.099
they've turned against them suddenly or something, and now we're

772
00:34:17.099 --> 00:34:19.380
fighting each other, and we'll find out why later.

773
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:26.159
If you gave me a pound for every single time, we did one of these

774
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:29.880
simulations where someone cocks it up and then someone walks in

775
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:32.099
and goes, well, you're going to have to try that again.

776
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:33.360
You're all dead, yeah.

777
00:34:33.420 --> 00:34:36.960
I'd have enough to buy that fresh old Tom Paris figure, you know.

778
00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:39.480
Easily a couple of 100 quid.

779
00:34:39.539 --> 00:34:40.800
They do it quite a bit, didn't they?

780
00:34:40.860 --> 00:34:43.619
But I had no idea what was going on.

781
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:46.679
I had seen this before, but I just didn't remember.

782
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:50.039
Look at Clara's.

783
00:34:50.099 --> 00:34:53.940
Very, very unimpressive, you federation people.

784
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:55.260
Yeah.

785
00:34:55.500 --> 00:35:00.599
Oh, look, and Worf, every time Worf sort of criticised. he's the

786
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:01.739
wor- he's very prissy, isn't he?

787
00:35:01.860 --> 00:35:02.699
He's like, excuse me.

788
00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:05.340
I'm a warrior, all right.

789
00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:07.619
Yeah, yeah, shut up. were doing the right thing.

790
00:35:07.860 --> 00:35:11.760
Oh, I did like this line though, Rico goes, oh, for God, they're

791
00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:12.239
hopeless.

792
00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:17.340
If they're gonna, if they want to survive over victory, then they

793
00:35:17.340 --> 00:35:17.940
have got a hope.

794
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:19.019
Well, that's it.

795
00:35:19.079 --> 00:35:21.539
Like, O'Brien just doesn't even think of it.

796
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:24.599
It's just like, yeah, no, we're not we're not blowing it up until

797
00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:25.320
we leave.

798
00:35:25.380 --> 00:35:27.480
I'm sorry, but we're just not doing that.

799
00:35:27.539 --> 00:35:29.579
Column delivers our stuff.

800
00:35:29.699 --> 00:35:31.920
You want us to blow it up while we're still inside.

801
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:40.500
Yeah, but, like, again, like, I think I, because we we see both of

802
00:35:40.500 --> 00:35:42.360
them give it sort of pep talk.

803
00:35:42.420 --> 00:35:43.019
So, aren't we?

804
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:46.380
We see the Germadar give their pep talk saying we're currently all

805
00:35:46.380 --> 00:35:49.679
dead and we are going to get our lives back by fighting for

806
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:50.099
victory.

807
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:51.360
That's how we get our life back.

808
00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:54.000
And hence victory is life, which is they're saying.

809
00:35:54.059 --> 00:35:55.139
And I thought that was pretty good.

810
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:59.099
And then the humans kind of mock it. and say their version, which

811
00:35:59.099 --> 00:36:00.059
I think is good as well.

812
00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:04.500
I thought this scene in the lift was really well durated because

813
00:36:04.500 --> 00:36:06.360
it feels cramped.

814
00:36:06.420 --> 00:36:10.619
It's an awkward conversation where they're giving very disparate

815
00:36:10.619 --> 00:36:11.460
point of views.

816
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:14.460
Um, and I like the lighting in this scene as well.

817
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:17.639
I don't know, it just felt a little bit more dynamic than just

818
00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:18.659
going up in the lift.

819
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:23.280
Yeah, I'm interested in Coombs's makeup because it's basically his

820
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:24.000
skin colour.

821
00:36:24.059 --> 00:36:28.380
It's not that white at all that it normally is, is it?

822
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:29.699
I don't know why that's happening.

823
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:30.960
Go back to him there.

824
00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:32.159
Yeah, he's quite pink, isn't he?

825
00:36:32.219 --> 00:36:32.880
Yeah, yeah.

826
00:36:32.940 --> 00:36:35.460
It's an early makeup thing or it's just the way it's lit.

827
00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:38.940
Oh, this is the bit as well, where he says, whiskey.

828
00:36:39.539 --> 00:36:40.739
We know about the gateway.

829
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:41.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

830
00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:43.559
That's really interesting.

831
00:36:43.619 --> 00:36:45.059
That's super interesting.

832
00:36:45.539 --> 00:36:46.980
Yeah.

833
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:50.460
And so everyone gets to say their piece.

834
00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:54.360
You know, like it is very talky, but it's people talking about how

835
00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:57.719
they differ in that outlook on things.

836
00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:04.320
Um, This isn't going to be a suicide mission, says Cisco.

837
00:37:04.380 --> 00:37:06.300
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

838
00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:06.719
Yeah.

839
00:37:06.780 --> 00:37:10.199
In fact, Ramirez, few people die, don't they?

840
00:37:10.260 --> 00:37:11.579
Well, some people do though.

841
00:37:12.420 --> 00:37:15.659
We just can't even say, oh, we never mind that.

842
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:18.059
We'll shoot them off in a torpedo.

843
00:37:18.059 --> 00:37:18.659
Yeah.

844
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:19.920
We'll never talk about them.

845
00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:24.960
Yeah, I mean, that was the thing about AR 558, wasn't it?

846
00:37:25.019 --> 00:37:29.219
was that these were all our regulars and so we know they weren't

847
00:37:29.219 --> 00:37:30.300
going to be killed.

848
00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:34.320
And so in an episode where they're having to stand...

849
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:37.739
They blew off Nok's leg. yeah that's true.

850
00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:38.579
That is true.

851
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:39.599
That's that's something.

852
00:37:39.659 --> 00:37:41.820
And deal with it as well.

853
00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:42.179
My God.

854
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:43.619
Consequences in Star Trek.

855
00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:44.400
What a revelation.

856
00:37:44.460 --> 00:37:45.840
I've seen, I really like.

857
00:37:45.900 --> 00:37:49.980
Is this where he says, there are no Gemhadar women.

858
00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:53.760
Yeah, but what I really like is this guy is like the sort of weird

859
00:37:53.760 --> 00:38:00.059
deepshit... with the kind of brown head and he's staring at it.

860
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:03.179
He's staring at Terry, which is really funny.

861
00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:06.119
He's a stupid Dalek, isn't he?

862
00:38:06.179 --> 00:38:09.119
But he's got quite great teeth and stuff.

863
00:38:09.179 --> 00:38:10.800
Like I think he's actually pretty good.

864
00:38:10.980 --> 00:38:14.219
Why are you admiring these gematology?

865
00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:15.059
What is wrong with you?

866
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:16.079
No, no, no.

867
00:38:16.139 --> 00:38:18.900
No, I meant good like monster alien teeth.

868
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:21.960
I think he's really good because this is him.

869
00:38:22.019 --> 00:38:27.360
This is because we already know about the the child thing, right?

870
00:38:27.420 --> 00:38:31.860
We already know that like, because he's going to say that they're

871
00:38:31.860 --> 00:38:33.239
eight, that he's eight, right?

872
00:38:33.300 --> 00:38:37.500
like in a minute and that he doesn't expect to live to 20 because

873
00:38:37.500 --> 00:38:40.079
hardly anyone does or no one lives to 30.

874
00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:42.659
You know, hardly anyone lives to 20.

875
00:38:42.900 --> 00:38:43.500
He's eight.

876
00:38:43.619 --> 00:38:45.539
He doesn't sleep, he doesn't eat.

877
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:49.559
None of that is known to Dax at this point, even though we know it

878
00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:51.059
from the abandoned.

879
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:51.659
Yeah?

880
00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:56.940
The funniest thing, though, is when he leans in and says to her

881
00:38:56.940 --> 00:38:58.619
how old are you then?

882
00:38:58.679 --> 00:39:01.380
Yeah, no, but he says, you look good.

883
00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:02.940
Oh, you know, you don't look at it.

884
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:04.559
You don't know, thank you.

885
00:39:04.619 --> 00:39:06.539
We don't necessarily fun.

886
00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:07.739
It's really cute.

887
00:39:08.579 --> 00:39:12.599
Ducks then goes off, you know, gossipy Ducks and goes, oh, I've

888
00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:14.820
just struck up a great friendship with one of the Gemma dolls.

889
00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:16.800
He's a great laugh.

890
00:39:16.860 --> 00:39:19.920
The thing that I really liked is the scene later on in the battle

891
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:24.300
where she calls him by name and says, like she actually names him

892
00:39:24.300 --> 00:39:25.199
Veracara.

893
00:39:25.260 --> 00:39:27.780
Not a lot, but there's some common ground.

894
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:28.860
No, I like it.

895
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:29.880
I thought that was good.

896
00:39:29.940 --> 00:39:30.599
They connect.

897
00:39:30.659 --> 00:39:32.159
Look at his reaction.

898
00:39:32.219 --> 00:39:34.619
Wait, he says, you know, look, he's quite shocked.

899
00:39:34.739 --> 00:39:36.659
And then she's...

900
00:39:36.659 --> 00:39:37.619
I'm really jealous.

901
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:39.179
You know, I could do without sleeping as well.

902
00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:40.619
Imagine that productive I'd be.

903
00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:42.300
A wharf.

904
00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:46.139
What's the point of going into battle if you don't savour the

905
00:39:46.139 --> 00:39:46.920
fruits of your victory?

906
00:39:46.980 --> 00:39:48.539
That's great.

907
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:50.460
I think that's really good.

908
00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:52.500
And that's a real proper difference.

909
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:53.280
Do you know what I mean?

910
00:39:53.340 --> 00:39:56.880
Because basically, you know, like all of these aliens who just

911
00:39:56.880 --> 00:39:59.880
want war and battle and honour and stuff is kind of boring.

912
00:39:59.940 --> 00:40:04.860
But the thing that he likes is when the paddle's over and then he

913
00:40:04.860 --> 00:40:05.820
can get pissed, you know.

914
00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:07.320
That's a great line.

915
00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:08.639
What about the women?

916
00:40:08.699 --> 00:40:09.780
There you go, Phil.

917
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:13.320
They're the mothers of our children and Dax goes, yeah, they're a

918
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:14.519
lot of fun at parties as well.

919
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:17.880
But he agrees. agrees with that.

920
00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:20.219
You are right.

921
00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:22.139
I didn't quite realise when watching this.

922
00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:24.000
There are lots of different points of view.

923
00:40:24.059 --> 00:40:24.960
Yes, aren't they?

924
00:40:25.019 --> 00:40:28.380
And that is far more interesting than an episode just running with

925
00:40:28.380 --> 00:40:29.760
a theme and everyone going with it.

926
00:40:29.820 --> 00:40:30.420
Yeah.

927
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:33.360
Yeah, no, I think that's, but that's the theme, isn't it?

928
00:40:33.420 --> 00:40:36.000
You know, we have these just disparate points of view about things

929
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:39.539
and it's not just between us and the Dominion.

930
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:43.440
It's also between the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar as well.

931
00:40:43.500 --> 00:40:48.179
And this bit here where they come in and ask, it's so demeaning, so

932
00:40:48.179 --> 00:40:48.840
there, isn't it?

933
00:40:48.900 --> 00:40:52.920
And then he's eating his dinner and then he sort of dabs his mouth

934
00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:55.860
and then just says it like, oh, further to clan, do you pleasure

935
00:40:55.860 --> 00:40:57.059
alluded to the dominion?

936
00:40:57.119 --> 00:40:58.139
Yeah, half-assed.

937
00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:01.500
No, it's really, really disrespectful.

938
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:05.940
They, like, you know, they're not just doing it because they're

939
00:41:05.940 --> 00:41:07.260
they're hanging out.

940
00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:08.219
Do you know what I mean?

941
00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:09.179
They're coming down.

942
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:11.940
It's a religious ritual for them, right?

943
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:14.340
And he's utterly dismissive of it.

944
00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:17.400
Like he just doesn't give a shit. the way she says, oh, may it

945
00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:17.940
keep you strong?

946
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:18.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

947
00:41:19.019 --> 00:41:19.980
You know, it just sort of has.

948
00:41:20.039 --> 00:41:22.019
But do you remember in, again, I'm going to keep making

949
00:41:22.019 --> 00:41:25.920
embarrassments to rocks and shoals when Keyvan went, may it keep

950
00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:26.760
you strong?

951
00:41:28.500 --> 00:41:31.500
Yeah, he just tosses it off because he doesn't give a shit.

952
00:41:31.559 --> 00:41:33.420
And they, it is a proper ritual.

953
00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:35.340
Like we see it happen several times, don't we?

954
00:41:35.639 --> 00:41:37.619
Oh, across the run.

955
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:38.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

956
00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:41.639
And it's a strong idea, isn't it, as well?

957
00:41:41.699 --> 00:41:42.599
The drug addiction.

958
00:41:42.659 --> 00:41:47.760
Well, it is in the 1st episode of Star Trek, the Next Generation.

959
00:41:48.659 --> 00:41:53.280
Yes, but we were handling things like drug addiction very badly

960
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:53.880
about that.

961
00:41:53.940 --> 00:41:56.219
But don't you remember John DeLancey?

962
00:41:56.280 --> 00:41:58.920
like Hugh appears as a sort of 21st century?

963
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:02.340
They sort of sniffing those things out of the thing?

964
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:02.639
Yeah.

965
00:42:02.699 --> 00:42:06.420
Oh, do you remember later on in the say, just say no, Wesley

966
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:07.380
drugs.

967
00:42:10.019 --> 00:42:13.440
Oh, so we get another. this is another one of those things now

968
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:16.079
where I was just a bit like, oh, can we just get to the fire now?

969
00:42:16.139 --> 00:42:16.920
Yeah, yeah.

970
00:42:16.980 --> 00:42:18.659
This is just sort of bound to happen.

971
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:21.000
It is kind of a little bit tedious.

972
00:42:22.019 --> 00:42:26.519
And this bit was quite badly directed, I thought.

973
00:42:26.760 --> 00:42:30.360
I don't think there's room in these sets.

974
00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:31.440
Great action.

975
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:32.219
That's the problem.

976
00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:33.840
I do think that's the problem.

977
00:42:34.139 --> 00:42:35.880
Look at everyone.

978
00:42:35.940 --> 00:42:37.800
They're just sort of all tough.

979
00:42:38.519 --> 00:42:40.920
And now we've cleared that part of the room so that they can fall

980
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:42.780
over and all of that.

981
00:42:43.380 --> 00:42:47.519
Oh boy, when Avery Brooks comes in shouting, I get all hot and

982
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:48.000
bothered.

983
00:42:52.139 --> 00:42:54.900
Sorry, he's going to murder Brian Thompson now, isn't he?

984
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:58.019
Did you see him coming and just push that guy over like he pushed

985
00:42:58.019 --> 00:42:59.579
the Starfleet guy out of the way?

986
00:43:02.579 --> 00:43:05.280
That's it. does he snap his neck?

987
00:43:05.340 --> 00:43:06.059
He does, doesn't he?

988
00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:06.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

989
00:43:07.019 --> 00:43:09.840
And apparently they had to take the sound off.

990
00:43:09.900 --> 00:43:12.239
Oh, for fuck's sake.

991
00:43:12.300 --> 00:43:14.400
What wimps they were back then.

992
00:43:17.460 --> 00:43:20.639
I mean, there is, well, we watched Empoc Nore, there was Bone.

993
00:43:20.699 --> 00:43:22.920
There was a neck snapping noise in that.

994
00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:24.599
That was only a year later.

995
00:43:24.659 --> 00:43:27.900
Do you think Lavar chickened out or Rick?

996
00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:28.800
No, no, no, no.

997
00:43:28.860 --> 00:43:31.139
It's all on the memory alpha page.

998
00:43:31.260 --> 00:43:34.440
Like the VAR wanted it to be more violent and it probably should

999
00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:39.780
have been in a sense, although I'm tend to be on the side of the

1000
00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:43.260
people, like if they're not going to be proper, then why do it?

1001
00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:46.260
If it was just going to be like a load of laborious action

1002
00:43:46.260 --> 00:43:46.860
though.

1003
00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:47.699
I don't know.

1004
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:50.159
I quite like how snappy those edits are.

1005
00:43:50.219 --> 00:43:52.440
If that's them taking out lots of bits.

1006
00:43:52.500 --> 00:43:54.659
It makes it more dynamic as a result.

1007
00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:59.159
Yeah, so this again, look, these are just 2 men who have

1008
00:43:59.159 --> 00:44:01.320
completely different ideas.

1009
00:44:01.380 --> 00:44:02.579
He's about to cry.

1010
00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:03.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1011
00:44:03.900 --> 00:44:06.960
No, and I think that's actually it because he's saying he was my

1012
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:07.679
second.

1013
00:44:07.739 --> 00:44:11.820
I have known him for years, 3 years.

1014
00:44:11.880 --> 00:44:12.780
Three years.

1015
00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:13.920
Do you know what I mean?

1016
00:44:13.980 --> 00:44:16.199
Like, that's like a 3rd of his life.

1017
00:44:16.260 --> 00:44:17.820
I valued him.

1018
00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:25.139
Um, And notice that Avery, like the Cisco can't make eye contact

1019
00:44:25.139 --> 00:44:27.599
with him when he says you have a funny way of showing it.

1020
00:44:27.659 --> 00:44:31.380
And this, I place the good of the unit over my personal feelings

1021
00:44:31.380 --> 00:44:34.920
but he is acting, he's showing us that his personal feelings are

1022
00:44:34.920 --> 00:44:36.059
really there.

1023
00:44:36.179 --> 00:44:40.440
Do you think they're, like, post what you leave behind because

1024
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:42.059
there's a lot of Jem'Adar still about.

1025
00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:45.420
Is there redemption for the Jemadar, but that's possible.

1026
00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:48.179
We've never mentioned them again, have we?

1027
00:44:48.239 --> 00:44:48.900
We've seen it.

1028
00:44:49.019 --> 00:44:50.820
No, Kurtz Metret never really went there, did they?

1029
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:54.900
No, they've done the Dominion a couple of times, but the founders

1030
00:44:54.900 --> 00:44:56.880
anyway, but they haven't...

1031
00:44:56.880 --> 00:44:59.340
I'd love to see an update your Gem at all.

1032
00:44:59.579 --> 00:45:00.300
See what that looks like.

1033
00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:06.539
But maybe they don't exist 900 years in the future because they're

1034
00:45:06.539 --> 00:45:07.559
not being forced grown anymore.

1035
00:45:07.619 --> 00:45:08.099
Yeah.

1036
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:12.840
Yeah, I thought he was really properly good.

1037
00:45:12.900 --> 00:45:16.199
And it is, it is like, I love this scene.

1038
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:20.280
Oh, may I speak to you for a moment?

1039
00:45:21.480 --> 00:45:24.599
And again, do you know what I mean?

1040
00:45:24.659 --> 00:45:31.019
Like, again, this, where, like, what struck me, fuck that makeup

1041
00:45:31.019 --> 00:45:31.440
is bad.

1042
00:45:31.500 --> 00:45:36.300
What struck me was, um, Like, it's coming off.

1043
00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:37.500
It's not sticking on.

1044
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:38.460
Do you know what I mean?

1045
00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:41.579
Like, I don't know what Michael Westmore's doing, but he's had a

1046
00:45:41.579 --> 00:45:45.000
bad morning this morning and the, you know, like, he's just not

1047
00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:46.019
sticking the makeup on.

1048
00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:47.400
I, you know what?

1049
00:45:47.460 --> 00:45:50.219
It says something to the performances on the right in here that I

1050
00:45:50.219 --> 00:45:50.579
did.

1051
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:53.340
I wasn't even noticing that. was just in the scene.

1052
00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:54.300
Yeah.

1053
00:45:54.360 --> 00:45:59.639
What, what, what I think is good is this is the point where I

1054
00:45:59.639 --> 00:46:04.440
thought they know what's going to happen at the end, they know

1055
00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:06.239
where this is going. photo.

1056
00:46:06.300 --> 00:46:06.659
Yeah.

1057
00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:07.440
Yeah.

1058
00:46:07.500 --> 00:46:10.320
Because it's amazing how late this is.

1059
00:46:10.380 --> 00:46:12.539
Like, this is season four, episode 23.

1060
00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:14.699
There's 3 years of this show to go.

1061
00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:17.760
It's almost impossible to imagine Deep Space 9.

1062
00:46:17.820 --> 00:46:22.139
You just think, oh, you mean Weune's not in it until like more

1063
00:46:22.139 --> 00:46:23.280
than halfway through.

1064
00:46:23.340 --> 00:46:28.019
He doesn't come back again until towards the end of 5 in the Kira

1065
00:46:28.019 --> 00:46:28.380
episode.

1066
00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:29.159
Ties of blood and water.

1067
00:46:29.219 --> 00:46:32.400
It's like series 5, episode 20 or something like that.

1068
00:46:32.460 --> 00:46:37.260
And then his 3rd episode is one we both love, where he meets Kai

1069
00:46:37.260 --> 00:46:37.619
Wynn.

1070
00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:39.360
J.K. Nog episode.

1071
00:46:39.420 --> 00:46:43.199
So it's only really the last 2 seasons that he's in.

1072
00:46:43.260 --> 00:46:47.280
So in fact, he made that impact with 40 odd episodes.

1073
00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:50.699
I just love as well where he sort of whispers, you know.

1074
00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:52.980
Your people still love you.

1075
00:46:53.579 --> 00:46:55.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1076
00:46:55.559 --> 00:46:58.199
Yeah, look at the camera now. right in his face.

1077
00:46:58.260 --> 00:46:59.699
Yeah.

1078
00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:00.599
Yeah.

1079
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:04.619
But I am ready to end this conversation.

1080
00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:09.659
And then, look, you could see the disappointment, but he still

1081
00:47:09.659 --> 00:47:11.579
respects him and just goes, then it's over.

1082
00:47:11.639 --> 00:47:13.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1083
00:47:13.739 --> 00:47:16.139
It's just great acting.

1084
00:47:16.380 --> 00:47:19.920
And you don't, I know, I know the makeup.

1085
00:47:19.980 --> 00:47:22.860
I know, but sometimes you just need a camera and 2 good actors.

1086
00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:24.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1087
00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:26.099
Yeah, and you're right.

1088
00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:29.579
LeVar just kind of lets their performances be the focus.

1089
00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:34.739
Yeah, oh, I love you, Jeffrey Combs.

1090
00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:35.699
He's so good.

1091
00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:38.760
I couldn't see much of what was happening with you, Renee, but I'd

1092
00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:39.119
love it.

1093
00:47:39.239 --> 00:47:39.840
Sorry.

1094
00:47:39.900 --> 00:47:44.519
I mean, you did see before the way that the eye sockets aren't

1095
00:47:44.519 --> 00:47:45.599
connected to his face.

1096
00:47:45.659 --> 00:47:47.579
Yeah, and he was sort of in the half dark there as well.

1097
00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:49.260
So that's a help I would.

1098
00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:53.760
Oh, this is a running sort of joke that he writes these messages

1099
00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:54.719
to Keiko.

1100
00:47:54.780 --> 00:47:56.760
Do you know?

1101
00:47:56.820 --> 00:47:59.219
But what was really funny?

1102
00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:03.239
So we have that whole speech about how he's doing it and how she

1103
00:48:03.239 --> 00:48:04.260
would feel about it.

1104
00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:08.099
You know, and Dax goes, oh, wouldn't it be romantic or something?

1105
00:48:08.159 --> 00:48:09.179
wouldn't she appreciate it?

1106
00:48:09.239 --> 00:48:12.119
And Miles goes, no, she'd be horrified.

1107
00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:13.739
And that's absolutely right.

1108
00:48:13.800 --> 00:48:16.380
But then...

1109
00:48:16.380 --> 00:48:22.139
But then Dax sends the same message to her mother and like just

1110
00:48:22.139 --> 00:48:23.579
Dax as a mother.

1111
00:48:23.639 --> 00:48:27.239
Like...

1112
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:28.739
It's obviously Jazeer's mother.

1113
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:30.960
Well, I don't know, maybe maybe it is.

1114
00:48:31.019 --> 00:48:36.000
Maybe it is Dax's mother who's on her 10th, you know, body or

1115
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:36.360
whatever.

1116
00:48:36.420 --> 00:48:38.760
Um, but it's so funny.

1117
00:48:38.820 --> 00:48:40.380
Like I just think that's adorable.

1118
00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:41.699
It's good banter, isn't it?

1119
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:49.019
And and this foreshadows the same banter with Veracara in the

1120
00:48:49.019 --> 00:48:52.980
final scene, where she says you're going to die at 140 surrounded

1121
00:48:52.980 --> 00:48:54.960
by, you know, people who love you.

1122
00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:58.320
And so that's all that matters.

1123
00:48:58.380 --> 00:49:00.300
And then she says the same thing to him.

1124
00:49:00.360 --> 00:49:05.099
You'll die at the age of 20, you know, an honoured elder and

1125
00:49:05.099 --> 00:49:05.460
stuff.

1126
00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:07.559
The message to my mother.

1127
00:49:07.619 --> 00:49:08.940
I just think it's great.

1128
00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:14.460
And you walked around Eastbourne Town Centre, didn't you, when you

1129
00:49:14.460 --> 00:49:15.300
came to visit?

1130
00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:17.760
Obviously I gave you a pepper spray, but you did walk around.

1131
00:49:17.820 --> 00:49:19.320
You know how dangerous it is.

1132
00:49:19.380 --> 00:49:22.139
So every time I go to world, you don't know this, but I'll write

1133
00:49:22.139 --> 00:49:22.739
you a letter.

1134
00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:26.400
Just in case, I don't make it.

1135
00:49:32.579 --> 00:49:37.199
It's come to my attention that 1st I met a clan has threatened to

1136
00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:39.719
get wharf, do not go sucking up to Cisco, all right?

1137
00:49:39.780 --> 00:49:40.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1138
00:49:40.739 --> 00:49:42.599
He's mad at you and rightly so.

1139
00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:45.119
He goes, don't you worry.

1140
00:49:45.179 --> 00:49:46.619
If he kills you, I'll kill him.

1141
00:49:46.679 --> 00:49:47.099
All right?

1142
00:49:47.159 --> 00:49:50.699
I think that's so funny he will not live to boast about it.

1143
00:49:50.760 --> 00:49:53.159
And he says, not a savoury show?

1144
00:49:53.219 --> 00:49:55.800
That's Wolf's way of saying it, I care about you.

1145
00:49:55.800 --> 00:49:57.300
That's very reassuring.

1146
00:49:57.360 --> 00:49:59.699
That's very reassuring, Mr. Warp.

1147
00:50:01.260 --> 00:50:03.059
Bloody hell.

1148
00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:04.380
There is only 9 minutes left of this.

1149
00:50:04.440 --> 00:50:05.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1150
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:07.500
It's absolutely skip, boy.

1151
00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:09.239
Oh, dude.

1152
00:50:09.300 --> 00:50:10.800
I do just love being with these people though.

1153
00:50:10.860 --> 00:50:14.519
But it has been them standing around talking, right?

1154
00:50:14.579 --> 00:50:18.300
Yeah, we had a tiny bit of, well, after the action at the start

1155
00:50:18.300 --> 00:50:20.159
and we get a bit of action in a minute.

1156
00:50:20.219 --> 00:50:23.940
Otherwise, it's our standard stock sets, lots of talk.

1157
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:27.900
Yeah, but like I said, I thought that the talk was interesting

1158
00:50:27.900 --> 00:50:34.440
because it is giving the Jem'Hadar the chance to be characters for

1159
00:50:34.440 --> 00:50:35.340
the 1st time.

1160
00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:36.420
Is that right?

1161
00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:39.960
It's unusual. one of the 1st times.

1162
00:50:40.019 --> 00:50:40.559
Yeah.

1163
00:50:40.679 --> 00:50:46.260
It's unusual for Star Trek to take something like the Dominion. you

1164
00:50:46.260 --> 00:50:50.519
know, a 3 tiered hierarchy, alien race. and explore it over what?

1165
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:52.679
Six, 7 years?

1166
00:50:52.679 --> 00:50:54.119
No, 5 years.

1167
00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:56.400
In such depth, though, you know?

1168
00:50:56.460 --> 00:50:58.920
and keep coming back to the will in different ways.

1169
00:50:58.980 --> 00:51:00.059
Yeah, yeah.

1170
00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:00.599
Yeah.

1171
00:51:00.659 --> 00:51:05.460
It's kind of refreshing By the end of the series, it's an

1172
00:51:05.460 --> 00:51:09.659
incredibly well-defined, but the Dominion is probably better to

1173
00:51:09.659 --> 00:51:10.920
find than the fucking Federation.

1174
00:51:12.539 --> 00:51:15.119
Yeah, so this speech.

1175
00:51:15.179 --> 00:51:18.539
I am 1st a metal car, a metlican.

1176
00:51:18.599 --> 00:51:19.679
Is that how you say it?

1177
00:51:19.739 --> 00:51:20.639
A metaclon.

1178
00:51:20.699 --> 00:51:22.139
And we're dead.

1179
00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:25.559
And look at the image too, where you've got the Federation people

1180
00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:29.699
on one side and the Jemadar on the other side, in the long shot.

1181
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:31.800
They're all standing next to each other looking completely

1182
00:51:31.800 --> 00:51:33.119
different from one another.

1183
00:51:33.900 --> 00:51:36.480
So how this is being show, isn't it?

1184
00:51:36.539 --> 00:51:39.780
And the reason that victory is life is we just assume that we are

1185
00:51:39.780 --> 00:51:42.780
dead and if we win, then we get to be alive again.

1186
00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:44.039
And that's...

1187
00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:47.400
Because I'm a massive con air, but I did laugh when he went, my

1188
00:51:47.400 --> 00:51:50.400
name's Miles O'Brien and I planned to stay alive, okay?

1189
00:51:50.460 --> 00:51:51.300
That's us.

1190
00:51:51.420 --> 00:51:52.320
Do you know what I mean?

1191
00:51:52.380 --> 00:51:56.880
That's why we're different from them, you know, like, and that's a

1192
00:51:56.880 --> 00:51:58.920
pretty good summary of it.

1193
00:51:58.980 --> 00:52:00.599
You know, it's the same thing before.

1194
00:52:00.659 --> 00:52:03.360
Like, yeah, we're not setting the bombs and then just sitting here

1195
00:52:03.360 --> 00:52:04.920
waiting for them to explode.

1196
00:52:04.980 --> 00:52:08.460
We're only detonating the bombs if we're in another room, right?

1197
00:52:08.579 --> 00:52:12.599
Again, did you see Wyun's face when he's given the speech, a

1198
00:52:12.599 --> 00:52:13.500
metaclown?

1199
00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:14.400
He just looks so bored.

1200
00:52:14.519 --> 00:52:15.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1201
00:52:15.900 --> 00:52:16.739
He just doesn't give a shit.

1202
00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:19.920
How many times do I have to listen to this every time we go into

1203
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:20.280
bowel?

1204
00:52:20.699 --> 00:52:25.559
I mean, oh, Nathan and I have this long-standing argument about

1205
00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:26.880
these phaser rifles.

1206
00:52:26.940 --> 00:52:29.099
So he thinks they're made of balls.

1207
00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:31.739
I made a fucking balsam wood. and that was all I was thinking of.

1208
00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:32.940
They're quite chunky.

1209
00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:33.780
They're so shit.

1210
00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:36.179
Voyager are better.

1211
00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:40.380
We are outside shooting up trees now.

1212
00:52:40.440 --> 00:52:41.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1213
00:52:41.820 --> 00:52:44.639
Where are we in Southern California, somewhere in Southern

1214
00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:45.059
California.

1215
00:52:45.659 --> 00:52:47.639
Pretty though, isn't it?

1216
00:52:47.699 --> 00:52:48.719
Nice little forest glen.

1217
00:52:48.780 --> 00:52:52.019
Yeah, it was a good choice, and it's nice to go outside for once

1218
00:52:52.019 --> 00:52:55.920
but it is a massive thing because they've got heaps of, there goes

1219
00:52:55.920 --> 00:52:59.579
poor old someone and Ramirez.

1220
00:52:59.639 --> 00:53:03.539
The horror, Nathan, they say, every time they went on and did a

1221
00:53:03.539 --> 00:53:05.880
DS9 location shoot, because it's always sunny. think of it.

1222
00:53:05.940 --> 00:53:06.599
Rocks and Shoals.

1223
00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:07.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1224
00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:11.400
The picnic in Times Orphan, they have searing heat.

1225
00:53:11.460 --> 00:53:13.619
And of course, how many people in latex here?

1226
00:53:13.679 --> 00:53:14.699
Yeah, yeah.

1227
00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:18.420
Those, that thing where they appear, you know, like the weird

1228
00:53:18.420 --> 00:53:21.420
shape, you know, they're invisible and then they kind of appear.

1229
00:53:21.480 --> 00:53:22.980
I think it looks amazing.

1230
00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:23.820
That's really great.

1231
00:53:23.880 --> 00:53:27.239
I don't know what's going on with this ziggerat.

1232
00:53:27.300 --> 00:53:28.019
Like, what is that?

1233
00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:30.659
I can't even tell where to join.

1234
00:53:30.659 --> 00:53:32.460
But it's quite well done.

1235
00:53:32.519 --> 00:53:34.199
But I don't think it can be.

1236
00:53:34.260 --> 00:53:35.039
I don't know.

1237
00:53:35.099 --> 00:53:35.639
I don't know.

1238
00:53:35.699 --> 00:53:37.139
These close-ups now are in the studio.

1239
00:53:37.260 --> 00:53:39.119
I don't think that's there, is it?

1240
00:53:39.119 --> 00:53:39.960
But I don't know.

1241
00:53:40.019 --> 00:53:40.500
I don't know.

1242
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:41.400
It is pretty incredible.

1243
00:53:41.460 --> 00:53:43.320
Like, how are they letting it in?

1244
00:53:43.380 --> 00:53:44.340
It's behind.

1245
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:47.400
You know, the Gemada, those big swords with the sort of big knife

1246
00:53:47.400 --> 00:53:47.820
at the end.

1247
00:53:47.880 --> 00:53:51.599
The way they, they sort of throw them into people's necks and then

1248
00:53:51.599 --> 00:53:52.019
slice.

1249
00:53:52.079 --> 00:53:55.500
Yeah, you see, I wonder whether that was absolutely necessary.

1250
00:53:55.559 --> 00:53:56.820
Do you know what I mean?

1251
00:53:56.880 --> 00:53:58.980
Like, like, why are we doing that?

1252
00:53:58.980 --> 00:54:01.260
Just to make it more wild.

1253
00:54:01.320 --> 00:54:04.079
A wise man once said, you know, if you're going to show violence

1254
00:54:04.079 --> 00:54:05.219
you should show that it hurts.

1255
00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:06.539
Yeah, I suppose.

1256
00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:07.800
But they don't even do that.

1257
00:54:07.860 --> 00:54:11.219
You know, like if they were shooting them with like, yeah, they

1258
00:54:11.219 --> 00:54:12.119
all just...

1259
00:54:12.119 --> 00:54:12.840
It's hour over.

1260
00:54:12.900 --> 00:54:14.639
Jay Chatterway.

1261
00:54:14.699 --> 00:54:15.539
Is he scoring this one?

1262
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:16.380
I don't know.

1263
00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:17.159
I didn't check actually.

1264
00:54:17.219 --> 00:54:19.199
The music are in this bit.

1265
00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:22.739
There was a sort of nice bit of underscoring going on as they were

1266
00:54:22.739 --> 00:54:24.300
sort of going about the ziggurat.

1267
00:54:24.360 --> 00:54:26.099
Yeah, that guy's going to be dead.

1268
00:54:26.159 --> 00:54:30.179
I do really like these these sets, though.

1269
00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:32.519
Lovely carpet, though, in the cigarette.

1270
00:54:32.579 --> 00:54:33.300
Did you...

1271
00:54:33.300 --> 00:54:34.619
Did you notice?

1272
00:54:34.619 --> 00:54:37.739
How the Germadal there came straight towards the camera.

1273
00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:38.340
Oz.

1274
00:54:38.699 --> 00:54:40.920
He literally attacked us.

1275
00:54:41.760 --> 00:54:43.800
I do like a bit of that.

1276
00:54:43.860 --> 00:54:45.179
Do you remember that, Gemadar did that?

1277
00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:48.420
He punched Garak in the face, but he punched the camera.

1278
00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:49.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1279
00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:50.159
It was quite nice.

1280
00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:55.619
Yeah, actually I can see some edits, I think. where you just

1281
00:54:55.619 --> 00:54:57.059
suddenly cut to a reaction shop.

1282
00:54:58.500 --> 00:55:02.039
But, you know, there's some blood, you know, there's some blood

1283
00:55:02.099 --> 00:55:05.159
there's some bodies Yeah, oh, no, this effect with Odo.

1284
00:55:05.219 --> 00:55:05.820
Good grief.

1285
00:55:05.940 --> 00:55:07.679
It's really rough, isn't it?

1286
00:55:07.739 --> 00:55:09.179
It's super rough.

1287
00:55:09.239 --> 00:55:10.199
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1288
00:55:10.619 --> 00:55:12.360
Imagine how great that would be.

1289
00:55:12.420 --> 00:55:13.860
Yeah, yeah.

1290
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:14.880
Well, we've seen it.

1291
00:55:14.940 --> 00:55:16.500
It would have looked like raw chicken.

1292
00:55:17.460 --> 00:55:19.739
Yeah, very unpleasant.

1293
00:55:21.300 --> 00:55:25.019
There we go now. right, we're going to see the gateway in a 2nd

1294
00:55:25.019 --> 00:55:25.260
now.

1295
00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:27.840
We need to try and name the planets that we see, all right?

1296
00:55:27.900 --> 00:55:29.219
Let's be quick.

1297
00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:30.960
Age of one, Bajor.

1298
00:55:31.019 --> 00:55:32.280
The Federation.

1299
00:55:32.340 --> 00:55:33.780
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1300
00:55:33.780 --> 00:55:35.639
Bajor again.

1301
00:55:35.699 --> 00:55:38.699
Oh, I think that's the one from...

1302
00:55:38.699 --> 00:55:39.360
Devil's Jew.

1303
00:55:39.360 --> 00:55:41.219
The Devil's Jew planet.

1304
00:55:41.519 --> 00:55:43.739
Silicon Avatar.

1305
00:55:44.219 --> 00:55:46.320
That was just a golf course.

1306
00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:48.420
I just saw Paris for Willow.

1307
00:55:48.480 --> 00:55:53.940
Paris. yeah Imagine if a 1000000 Jem'dar soldiers landed in

1308
00:55:53.940 --> 00:55:54.300
Paris.

1309
00:55:54.599 --> 00:55:59.039
So the thing, the weird thing is, right, that I just assumed

1310
00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:02.639
Iconian Gateways were in all the time, but they've only been in it

1311
00:56:02.639 --> 00:56:05.039
twice. yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1312
00:56:05.099 --> 00:56:09.119
There's another, who are the, who are the people from, is it

1313
00:56:09.119 --> 00:56:09.900
lonely among us?

1314
00:56:10.980 --> 00:56:13.619
They have a gay Monday.

1315
00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:14.880
Is there a gateway?

1316
00:56:14.940 --> 00:56:16.260
And the Anticans.

1317
00:56:16.320 --> 00:56:17.219
I don't think so.

1318
00:56:17.219 --> 00:56:19.260
So what's the one I'm thinking of?

1319
00:56:19.320 --> 00:56:20.400
The last outpost.

1320
00:56:20.760 --> 00:56:24.659
Oh, oh, that old man with the staff at the end.

1321
00:56:25.079 --> 00:56:27.659
But they had gateways as well, didn't they?

1322
00:56:27.719 --> 00:56:31.019
I mean, we get a bit bored of just going from A to B in a

1323
00:56:31.019 --> 00:56:31.440
spaceship.

1324
00:56:31.500 --> 00:56:32.940
How nice if they had one of these.

1325
00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:34.679
We could get straight to the planets and get going.

1326
00:56:34.739 --> 00:56:35.699
Yeah, yeah.

1327
00:56:35.760 --> 00:56:39.119
And again, there seems to just be this standing federation thing

1328
00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:40.320
where we have to destroy them.

1329
00:56:40.380 --> 00:56:43.739
Like, I actually love the idea that 200,000 years ago.

1330
00:56:43.800 --> 00:56:47.699
Like the Dominion's been going for 2000 years, we discover here.

1331
00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:49.739
But 200,000 years ago.

1332
00:56:49.800 --> 00:56:53.940
The Iconians just travelled from place to place in these using

1333
00:56:53.940 --> 00:56:54.960
these gateways.

1334
00:56:55.019 --> 00:56:58.079
And that's kind of super weird and interesting.

1335
00:56:58.139 --> 00:57:01.199
You know, the galaxy was wildly different from how it is now.

1336
00:57:01.260 --> 00:57:02.760
Um, I don't know.

1337
00:57:03.300 --> 00:57:06.480
Now, now you can just hear Ira.

1338
00:57:06.539 --> 00:57:09.059
LaVar, you you killed Jeffrey.

1339
00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:09.539
What are you doing?

1340
00:57:10.500 --> 00:57:12.360
It was Clarence.

1341
00:57:12.420 --> 00:57:13.619
It was Clarence's idea.

1342
00:57:15.179 --> 00:57:17.760
Ask for questioning our loyalty.

1343
00:57:17.820 --> 00:57:18.300
All right.

1344
00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:18.780
Yeah.

1345
00:57:18.840 --> 00:57:19.679
Yeah, okay.

1346
00:57:19.739 --> 00:57:21.719
I mean, I do like this at the end where they've all got their

1347
00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:23.099
weapons, and suddenly...

1348
00:57:23.099 --> 00:57:25.139
They just kill one another.

1349
00:57:25.199 --> 00:57:29.159
No, but there's a tension, though, that they might just for a

1350
00:57:29.159 --> 00:57:29.460
second.

1351
00:57:29.579 --> 00:57:30.960
Everyone's sort of holding their guns.

1352
00:57:31.019 --> 00:57:36.179
But like I actually think shooting the vorder doesn't work.

1353
00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:37.380
Like, why would he do that?

1354
00:57:37.440 --> 00:57:39.900
Like, it doesn't make sense that he would do that.

1355
00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:42.420
And do you know what I mean?

1356
00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:43.800
Like, just to get him out of the way.

1357
00:57:43.860 --> 00:57:44.579
Yeah, yeah.

1358
00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:48.480
Well, maybe they felt we needed to see him suffer because of how

1359
00:57:48.480 --> 00:57:50.820
appalling he was earlier in the episode.

1360
00:57:50.880 --> 00:57:53.159
But it just doesn't make sense.

1361
00:57:53.219 --> 00:57:58.320
And that's why rocks and shoals is better than this because...

1362
00:57:58.320 --> 00:58:01.199
I do always love that sort of predator effect.

1363
00:58:01.260 --> 00:58:02.039
I don't vanish.

1364
00:58:02.039 --> 00:58:03.360
It looks undergrowved.

1365
00:58:03.420 --> 00:58:06.599
I could see a tear in Clarence's eye there, but I think that might

1366
00:58:06.599 --> 00:58:08.039
have been the weather. might be the makeup.

1367
00:58:08.099 --> 00:58:11.039
But I definitely think that I definitely think that he was

1368
00:58:11.039 --> 00:58:15.900
deliberately playing that in that in that scene before.

1369
00:58:16.199 --> 00:58:18.780
Yeah, and then they go, we're back.

1370
00:58:18.840 --> 00:58:19.320
We're out.

1371
00:58:19.380 --> 00:58:21.960
That's like a nice self-contained story.

1372
00:58:22.019 --> 00:58:23.579
It just doesn't hang around, really, does it?

1373
00:58:23.639 --> 00:58:24.599
It starts quick.

1374
00:58:24.659 --> 00:58:28.320
It ends quick and in the middle it's talking about the nuts and

1375
00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:29.039
bolts of the story.

1376
00:58:29.099 --> 00:58:30.179
Yeah.

1377
00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:31.440
Well, yeah, no.

1378
00:58:31.500 --> 00:58:35.280
And but it's even even it's not the story so much, it is just

1379
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:40.320
these are groups of people that all have different ethics in a way

1380
00:58:40.320 --> 00:58:42.179
that sort of kind of interesting.

1381
00:58:42.239 --> 00:58:49.320
Um, but, like, this show does kind of valorize the Germadar in a

1382
00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:49.559
way.

1383
00:58:49.619 --> 00:58:52.920
You know, the Germadar are more moral than the vorta.

1384
00:58:52.980 --> 00:58:57.179
And this group of Jem'Hadar, who haven't rebelled against the

1385
00:58:57.179 --> 00:59:01.920
founders, are in some way more moral than the ones who did.

1386
00:59:01.980 --> 00:59:06.840
And I think that that's actually sort of a problem.

1387
00:59:07.619 --> 00:59:13.019
Think when we eventually do Hippocratic oath, you might find that

1388
00:59:13.019 --> 00:59:14.639
one really interesting.

1389
00:59:14.699 --> 00:59:15.480
Right.

1390
00:59:15.480 --> 00:59:19.739
Um, because again, it's another great guest turn as the lead

1391
00:59:19.739 --> 00:59:20.400
Gemadar.

1392
00:59:20.460 --> 00:59:25.619
But there's there's the 2 sides to the to the argument, both on

1393
00:59:25.619 --> 00:59:26.699
the Gemadar side.

1394
00:59:26.760 --> 00:59:29.699
They just want to kill the Federation people and obviously O'Brien

1395
00:59:29.699 --> 00:59:31.320
wants to let the Gem'adar die.

1396
00:59:31.380 --> 00:59:34.980
Yeah, it's quite uncomfortable in places as well because it pushes

1397
00:59:34.980 --> 00:59:40.500
O'Brien and Bashir into a position where Bashir has to use his

1398
00:59:40.500 --> 00:59:42.659
authority...

1399
00:59:42.719 --> 00:59:44.579
Step on O'Brien.

1400
00:59:44.639 --> 00:59:46.500
You'll just do what you're told.

1401
00:59:46.679 --> 00:59:49.800
I remember watching it going, oh, this is a bit different, you

1402
00:59:49.800 --> 00:59:50.039
know.

1403
00:59:50.219 --> 00:59:52.019
How late's that?

1404
00:59:52.079 --> 00:59:54.300
Hippocratic, if that's earlier on.

1405
00:59:54.360 --> 00:59:55.739
That's at the start of series 4.

1406
00:59:55.920 --> 00:59:56.880
Yeah, it's the 2nd episode.

1407
00:59:57.000 --> 00:59:59.760
The 3rd episode, after the visitor, they do Way of the Warrior, the

1408
00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:01.440
visitor, Hitocratic Cove.

1409
01:00:01.500 --> 01:00:06.719
I mean, like 4 is a justly celebrated season of Trek.

1410
01:00:06.780 --> 01:00:09.659
You know, oh, man, Bashir, little green men.

1411
01:00:09.659 --> 01:00:11.280
Yeah, yeah.

1412
01:00:11.340 --> 01:00:13.019
I mean, there's just great, great episodes.

1413
01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:15.539
I think this is this is good.

1414
01:00:15.780 --> 01:00:20.219
And I think it is well executed and very well acted.

1415
01:00:20.280 --> 01:00:25.199
It's just, like I said at the start, it is just a little bit manly

1416
01:00:25.199 --> 01:00:25.860
for me.

1417
01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:26.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1418
01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:29.880
But I think I might be the problem there rather than the episode.

1419
01:00:29.940 --> 01:00:34.679
Well, yeah, no, I think that it's, yeah, I think there's too many

1420
01:00:34.679 --> 01:00:35.099
men.

1421
01:00:35.159 --> 01:00:36.539
It's a sausage party.

1422
01:00:36.539 --> 01:00:40.199
And like, you know, sometimes I like that.

1423
01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:42.719
But in my Star Trek.

1424
01:00:42.840 --> 01:00:45.000
I generally like there to be more women.

1425
01:00:52.500 --> 01:00:56.400
It's the end of the episode and it's time for us to work out where

1426
01:00:56.400 --> 01:00:57.360
we're going next.

1427
01:00:57.420 --> 01:01:01.019
You chose this episode of Deep Space 9.

1428
01:01:01.079 --> 01:01:08.099
And so I'm going to retaliate now by choosing one of by choosing

1429
01:01:08.099 --> 01:01:15.000
an episode from one of 2 series of Star Trek, and they're the 2

1430
01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:19.800
series that we have covered the least at this point, I think. don't

1431
01:01:19.800 --> 01:01:20.400
know what that is.

1432
01:01:20.460 --> 01:01:26.639
They are Star Trek Voyager and Star Trek Enterprise.

1433
01:01:26.820 --> 01:01:28.380
Of course.

1434
01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:32.039
Well, you complain about me picking Enterprise all the time.

1435
01:01:32.099 --> 01:01:34.739
At least there's a chance this will be a Voyager episode.

1436
01:01:34.800 --> 01:01:39.719
I generally do take us to PS9. quite frequently.

1437
01:01:39.780 --> 01:01:41.639
Yeah, but we have good time there.

1438
01:01:41.760 --> 01:01:42.179
That's why.

1439
01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:47.639
We recently were stuck with Malcolm Reid and Archer having fucking

1440
01:01:47.639 --> 01:01:48.179
breakfast.

1441
01:01:48.239 --> 01:01:48.780
Do you remember?

1442
01:01:48.900 --> 01:01:50.880
Well, that was some weeks ago now.

1443
01:01:50.940 --> 01:01:55.559
I know it's still traumatic, but it was quite some time ago.

1444
01:01:55.619 --> 01:01:57.780
All I'm going to say to you is this right?

1445
01:01:57.840 --> 01:01:58.079
Yeah.

1446
01:01:58.139 --> 01:02:02.159
If you pull this shit on me, when you're here in my house with me

1447
01:02:02.159 --> 01:02:02.460
okay?

1448
01:02:03.059 --> 01:02:05.699
That could be some serious consequences.

1449
01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:08.340
Five episodes of Enterprise in a row.

1450
01:02:08.340 --> 01:02:09.179
All right.

1451
01:02:09.239 --> 01:02:11.099
Just to get them out of the way.

1452
01:02:11.159 --> 01:02:14.820
Okay, so I am going to press the button.

1453
01:02:17.940 --> 01:02:19.199
It's a Voyager.

1454
01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:23.820
Season six, episode seven.

1455
01:02:23.880 --> 01:02:25.980
Dragon's teeth.

1456
01:02:26.039 --> 01:02:28.139
Oh my god.

1457
01:02:28.199 --> 01:02:33.659
That would be a really interesting one to talk about because it is

1458
01:02:33.659 --> 01:02:37.800
great in all sorts of ways and really terrible in all sorts of

1459
01:02:37.800 --> 01:02:37.980
ways.

1460
01:02:39.300 --> 01:02:44.460
I think we've recently just picked the 1st one a couple of times

1461
01:02:44.460 --> 01:02:48.300
but I am kind of tempting. me too.

1462
01:02:48.360 --> 01:02:51.539
Like, that's, it's got a good role for Neelix in it.

1463
01:02:51.599 --> 01:02:55.199
Oh, well, Naomi's there and we were complaining that we hadn't

1464
01:02:55.199 --> 01:02:56.760
seen much of her in Voyager.

1465
01:02:56.820 --> 01:03:01.199
She's got some nice CGI in it as well, some quite impressive CGI.

1466
01:03:01.260 --> 01:03:04.019
This is sort of post-y S9 where they're getting their act together

1467
01:03:04.019 --> 01:03:05.099
with the landscapes.

1468
01:03:05.159 --> 01:03:08.280
But it does kind of fudge.

1469
01:03:08.340 --> 01:03:13.380
This is a new great threat to the Delta Quadrant and we never, ever

1470
01:03:13.380 --> 01:03:14.280
hear from them again.

1471
01:03:14.340 --> 01:03:17.340
No, we're trying to make the Vardoir happen and they never do

1472
01:03:17.340 --> 01:03:19.380
because they look stupid.

1473
01:03:19.440 --> 01:03:22.619
What a fucking...

1474
01:03:23.280 --> 01:03:25.019
Come on.

1475
01:03:25.079 --> 01:03:27.960
It's not like the Dominion, is it?

1476
01:03:28.559 --> 01:03:30.780
Fucking Vardwell.

1477
01:03:30.960 --> 01:03:34.800
I just want to see what they look like, but I remember them

1478
01:03:34.800 --> 01:03:39.599
looking stupid and that's probably enough to get me on board.

1479
01:03:39.659 --> 01:03:41.400
So let's do it.

1480
01:03:41.460 --> 01:03:42.119
Let's do it.

1481
01:03:42.179 --> 01:03:43.440
Yeah, absolutely.

1482
01:03:51.119 --> 01:03:54.840
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford

1483
01:03:54.840 --> 01:03:59.099
and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project

1484
01:03:58.199 --> 01:04:01.800
com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social

1485
01:04:01.800 --> 01:04:02.820
media accounts.

1486
01:04:02.880 --> 01:04:07.019
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Sisrin, and the theme was composed

1487
01:04:07.019 --> 01:04:08.340
by Cameron Lamb.

1488
01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:13.139
This episode was recorded on the 1st of July 2025 and released on

1489
01:04:13.139 --> 01:04:14.039
the 4th of July.

1490
01:04:14.099 --> 01:04:18.360
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager, Dragon's Teeth.

1491
01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:40.800
When we first started doing this, we, you know, the general idea

1492
01:04:40.800 --> 01:04:43.380
was, whatever we chose, that's what we'd watch.

1493
01:04:43.440 --> 01:04:46.260
Now, obviously, over time, we've...

1494
01:04:46.260 --> 01:04:50.340
No, that was never it because right from day one, I wrote the rule

1495
01:04:50.340 --> 01:04:54.300
that we have to keep rolling until we pick one.

1496
01:04:54.360 --> 01:04:58.380
A, we pick one that we like, or B, we get embarrassed by how long

1497
01:04:58.380 --> 01:05:02.039
the process is taking, like they, we had to do it until then.

1498
01:05:02.099 --> 01:05:04.920
So it was always, it was always there that you could just sort of

1499
01:05:04.920 --> 01:05:06.599
pick from the ones that were rolled.

1500
01:05:06.659 --> 01:05:11.579
But I think, oh, I did have like a 12 picked stretch on one

1501
01:05:11.579 --> 01:05:15.840
episode where you just kept, you got to the point where you went

1502
01:05:15.840 --> 01:05:17.340
no, this is beyond embarrassing.

1503
01:05:17.400 --> 01:05:19.920
And patient straining now.

1504
01:05:19.980 --> 01:05:21.420
It's got to be this one.

1505
01:05:21.960 --> 01:05:26.639
Well, I, you know, like, we've got to do it at some and I think we

1506
01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:27.780
should definitely do it.

1507
01:05:27.840 --> 01:05:29.639
So that's Dragon's teeth.

1508
01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:32.340
I'm very excited.

1509
01:05:32.400 --> 01:05:34.800
Bring on Naomi Wildman.

1510
01:05:34.860 --> 01:05:35.519
Oh my god.

1511
01:05:37.199 --> 01:05:39.599
All right, just wait, wait.

1512
01:05:39.659 --> 01:05:41.760
It's one we've lost to talk about.

1513
01:05:41.880 --> 01:05:42.780
That's for sure.

1514
01:05:42.840 --> 01:05:44.460
There is plenty to say about that.

1515
01:05:44.519 --> 01:05:49.559
Like, and we can talk about, you know, like just how Voyager does

1516
01:05:49.559 --> 01:05:52.139
Doctor Who monsters, you know, like it just wants to kind of

1517
01:05:52.139 --> 01:05:54.000
introduce new monsters all the time.

1518
01:05:54.059 --> 01:05:57.840
And sometimes they take, like the herogen was sort of quite

1519
01:05:57.840 --> 01:05:59.159
successful, I thought.

1520
01:05:59.159 --> 01:06:03.599
We've even had herogen in, I think we've had herogen in, um

1521
01:06:03.599 --> 01:06:04.860
prodigy.

1522
01:06:05.820 --> 01:06:11.340
I literally think they do the, you remember the twist in alliances

1523
01:06:11.340 --> 01:06:12.360
with the tribe?

1524
01:06:12.420 --> 01:06:13.440
Oh, it's the same thing.

1525
01:06:13.500 --> 01:06:18.599
It's the exactly the same twist where they, you know, meet... a

1526
01:06:18.599 --> 01:06:22.199
representative of the people that they, the Vardoir worth item

1527
01:06:22.199 --> 01:06:22.380
with.

1528
01:06:22.440 --> 01:06:25.019
They get, 0 my god, the hardware are evil.

1529
01:06:25.079 --> 01:06:29.159
No, it turns out actually they've been exploited and... something

1530
01:06:29.159 --> 01:06:29.460
like that.

1531
01:06:29.519 --> 01:06:35.460
I'll think. think I just wonder there's a great shot of now I've

1532
01:06:35.460 --> 01:06:35.699
said it.

1533
01:06:35.760 --> 01:06:36.539
It's going to be awful.

1534
01:06:36.599 --> 01:06:40.380
There's a great shot of Voyager going through this ruined city

1535
01:06:40.380 --> 01:06:45.179
whilst there's just like torpedoes flying everywhere.

1536
01:06:45.239 --> 01:06:45.780
Oh, okay.

1537
01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:47.579
Maybe I'll imagine that.

1538
01:06:47.820 --> 01:06:50.519
Maybe that was a dream.

1539
01:06:50.639 --> 01:06:53.880
I can't remember it, but I do remember what the Vardois looked

1540
01:06:53.880 --> 01:06:55.139
like, obviously.

1541
01:06:55.199 --> 01:06:58.139
And when I tell Robert that we're doing the Vardois, he'll be very

1542
01:06:58.139 --> 01:06:58.440
excited.

1543
01:06:58.500 --> 01:07:03.539
They sort of look a bit like, you know, that plant that looks like

1544
01:07:03.539 --> 01:07:05.400
a vagina in the invasion of time.

1545
01:07:05.460 --> 01:07:07.440
When it's sort of open.

1546
01:07:07.440 --> 01:07:09.360
Their heads look a bit like that.

1547
01:07:09.420 --> 01:07:12.179
You know, the sort of they're like flaps that come out.

1548
01:07:12.179 --> 01:07:15.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah. they got weird neck thing happening, don't

1549
01:07:15.480 --> 01:07:15.599
they?

1550
01:07:15.659 --> 01:07:18.480
Yeah, it sort of goes all the way out and then down.

1551
01:07:18.539 --> 01:07:23.699
It's like, cut price poundland, Cardassians.

1552
01:07:23.760 --> 01:07:25.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1553
01:07:25.619 --> 01:07:28.619
Yeah, but they're sort of lizard people, aren't they?

1554
01:07:28.679 --> 01:07:31.980
Maybe they didn't come back because the man said, yeah, I'm not

1555
01:07:31.980 --> 01:07:32.699
wearing that again.

1556
01:07:32.760 --> 01:07:34.199
I'm not doing that. all right.

1557
01:07:34.739 --> 01:07:36.179
Yes.

1558
01:07:36.239 --> 01:07:38.519
Because like we have the mail on, don't we?

1559
01:07:38.579 --> 01:07:42.480
Like they try and make them happen and Species 90210.

1560
01:07:43.619 --> 01:07:44.940
They look like Sontaurus, don't they?

1561
01:07:45.059 --> 01:07:45.780
Oh, yeah.

1562
01:07:45.780 --> 01:07:46.500
Who's?

1563
01:07:46.559 --> 01:07:47.699
Yeah, yeah.

1564
01:07:47.760 --> 01:07:50.820
What's the ones in the Herogen?

1565
01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:52.500
They were not terrible design.

1566
01:07:52.559 --> 01:07:53.340
They're fine.

1567
01:07:53.400 --> 01:07:53.940
I think they're good.

1568
01:07:54.059 --> 01:07:56.460
And when they had that giant 2 panda that we did, they were good.

1569
01:07:56.519 --> 01:08:01.440
I appreciated the idea behind Species 8472, but the CGI just

1570
01:08:01.440 --> 01:08:04.139
wasn't quite there yet for them to get away with it.

1571
01:08:04.199 --> 01:08:06.360
But the idea was good. it was worth trying.

1572
01:08:06.420 --> 01:08:07.019
Yeah.

1573
01:08:07.860 --> 01:08:11.159
And then, of course, the Beaumont...

1574
01:08:11.159 --> 01:08:13.559
Why did they never come back?

1575
01:08:13.619 --> 01:08:17.579
Oh, no, people don't accessorise coat angers enough, you know?

1576
01:08:17.640 --> 01:08:19.800
Yeah, no, people should be wearing coat hangers all the time.

1577
01:08:20.699 --> 01:08:23.640
Maybe I'll turn off next week.