WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-01 at 20:23:08

1
00:00:21.839 --> 00:00:24.899
Hey, Joe. Hi.

2
00:00:25.019 --> 00:00:29.820
Joe, I want you to tell the listener at home what we're watching

3
00:00:29.820 --> 00:00:30.660
today.

4
00:00:31.379 --> 00:00:38.219
What we're watching today, Nathan, is widely considered to be one

5
00:00:38.219 --> 00:00:40.920
of the best episodes of Deep Space 9.

6
00:00:40.979 --> 00:00:45.659
Yeah. widely considered to be one of the best episodes of Star

7
00:00:45.659 --> 00:00:46.259
Trek.

8
00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:51.299
I took a good look at Wikipedia before coming onto this recording

9
00:00:51.299 --> 00:00:55.439
and it cited like literally 50 sources.

10
00:00:55.500 --> 00:00:58.679
It's on all the lists, the top 10 lists.

11
00:00:58.740 --> 00:01:02.939
It's, you know, all those great Star Trek experts out there that

12
00:01:02.939 --> 00:01:04.140
have brought out books.

13
00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:06.000
It's on all of their lists as well.

14
00:01:06.060 --> 00:01:11.280
Today we are going to be watching and talking about in the pale

15
00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:12.120
moonlight.

16
00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:17.040
I think it is pretty good, but I still maintain it's not as good

17
00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:18.599
as Take Me Out to the Hollow Suite.

18
00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:24.719
I think you are unique in that opinion, you know.

19
00:01:25.980 --> 00:01:29.519
Well, I mean, I've got a question for you before.

20
00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:32.579
I've got some trivia, but I do have a question for you, okay?

21
00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:36.420
How do you feel about the Dominion Warrock?

22
00:01:36.420 --> 00:01:37.560
Because I don't actually know.

23
00:01:37.620 --> 00:01:39.180
How you feel about that?

24
00:01:39.239 --> 00:01:45.599
I think it's interesting to do that. and I can see why they did do

25
00:01:45.599 --> 00:01:52.019
it because Star Trek the Next Generation had been very stayed and

26
00:01:52.019 --> 00:01:57.840
they had basically kind of aped that at the beginning of Deep

27
00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:01.019
Space 9, you know, so Star Trek spinoff and they were basically

28
00:02:01.019 --> 00:02:03.060
doing the same sort of thing.

29
00:02:03.480 --> 00:02:06.900
And I do think that they do it well.

30
00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:12.180
And I think it enables them to go places that other Star Treks

31
00:02:12.180 --> 00:02:14.039
hadn't been, and I'm always here for that.

32
00:02:14.099 --> 00:02:17.759
I think that Star Trek should be doing things that are new rather

33
00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:22.860
than just sort of warming over old Star Trek, the Next Generation

34
00:02:22.860 --> 00:02:25.740
Plants, like Voyager sometimes does.

35
00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:29.280
Well, and DS9 was guilty of that in his 1st company.

36
00:02:29.340 --> 00:02:29.939
Yeah, yeah.

37
00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:30.360
Yeah.

38
00:02:30.419 --> 00:02:37.439
And I also think that probably it's the only 90s trek that could

39
00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:42.360
have sustained it because the characters are so strong and there

40
00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:43.379
are so many of them.

41
00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:50.340
And it also gives, you know, the alpha quadrant a kind of feel to

42
00:02:50.340 --> 00:02:51.180
it, a structure.

43
00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:54.659
We get a kind of sense of what the galaxy's like.

44
00:02:54.719 --> 00:02:56.460
And I think all of that stuff is good.

45
00:02:56.460 --> 00:03:01.020
I do have reservations about it a bit though.

46
00:03:01.080 --> 00:03:10.740
And one of the reasons is that, for me, Star Trek has a kind of

47
00:03:10.740 --> 00:03:15.419
mission to show a future for humanity that's better.

48
00:03:15.539 --> 00:03:23.159
And we do win, obviously, the Dominion War, and it's all fine.

49
00:03:24.180 --> 00:03:28.740
But sometimes I think it strays into territory that's probably

50
00:03:28.740 --> 00:03:31.979
best left to Battlestar Galactica.

51
00:03:31.979 --> 00:03:35.759
And maybe even this week's episode does that a little bit.

52
00:03:36.300 --> 00:03:38.520
I mean, I agree with you.

53
00:03:38.580 --> 00:03:39.539
And I disagree with you.

54
00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:43.319
I agree with you in that, you know, Star Trek kind of has a

55
00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:45.240
mission statement to show a better future.

56
00:03:45.780 --> 00:03:50.460
But I think maybe that's a little bit boring at times.

57
00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:54.419
And I think this is really interesting to watch because it's full

58
00:03:54.419 --> 00:03:58.979
of drama and action and suspense and great character work, but it

59
00:03:58.979 --> 00:04:02.159
may be like those people that are out there waving placards saying

60
00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:05.939
that this is betraying the Roddenberry ideal, whatever that might

61
00:04:05.939 --> 00:04:06.180
be.

62
00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:09.419
Maybe they've got a point, you know.

63
00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:12.180
The Mary White House is of the Star Trek universe.

64
00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:16.500
Yeah, I think, you know, like the Roddenbury ideal is always

65
00:04:16.500 --> 00:04:20.279
something that's kind of read back into Star Trek.

66
00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:23.399
I don't think it's really particularly present in the original

67
00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:24.000
series.

68
00:04:24.060 --> 00:04:27.240
No, well, from what I was reading, a lot of the original series

69
00:04:27.240 --> 00:04:32.759
was influenced by Gene Coon rather than Gene Roddenberg.

70
00:04:32.819 --> 00:04:38.100
So I think the kind of the purest Gene Robinbury that we get is

71
00:04:38.100 --> 00:04:40.680
when the next generation was launched.

72
00:04:40.740 --> 00:04:43.920
That's when he had the greatest sort of creative control.

73
00:04:43.980 --> 00:04:45.240
And look at it.

74
00:04:45.300 --> 00:04:46.980
Justice.

75
00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:51.420
Like, you know, justice and hide and cue and all that nonsense

76
00:04:51.420 --> 00:04:52.019
like, really?

77
00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:53.220
Yeah, code of honour.

78
00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:57.300
Would we have had 21 seasons of 90s trek if it had continued in

79
00:04:57.300 --> 00:04:57.899
that vein?

80
00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:02.819
But also think as well, with DS9, they deliberately said it in a

81
00:05:02.819 --> 00:05:03.720
static location.

82
00:05:03.959 --> 00:05:08.160
And they said, you know, we want Star Trek to have consequences.

83
00:05:08.220 --> 00:05:12.779
That was part of the remit of this show, was that they couldn't

84
00:05:12.779 --> 00:05:16.019
just warp away from the problems that were occurring, where

85
00:05:16.019 --> 00:05:16.560
they're set.

86
00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:21.480
So I think to get here was kind of inevitable, because otherwise

87
00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:23.040
what can you do with a static setting?

88
00:05:23.100 --> 00:05:26.879
Yeah, yeah, you can't just send 2 characters off in a runabout

89
00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:30.600
every week to a different moon of beja or something?

90
00:05:30.660 --> 00:05:34.139
Like it always needed to go somewhere else.

91
00:05:34.199 --> 00:05:36.899
And I think it does that really well.

92
00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:42.240
And it is the 1st Star Trek to experiment with proper serialised

93
00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:43.139
storytelling.

94
00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:45.660
And I think it does a really good job of that.

95
00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:48.480
And in that context.

96
00:05:48.540 --> 00:05:51.899
I think this episode is really, really interesting.

97
00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:55.980
The approach that it takes, the way it's structured.

98
00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:58.439
Um, like I'm really on board with it.

99
00:05:58.500 --> 00:06:02.519
And I do think, like, generally speaking, a show is either like

100
00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:03.420
arc-based.

101
00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:06.660
So it's like Picard, which is like, like I said before, chapters

102
00:06:06.660 --> 00:06:11.459
in a novel, that's so serialised that you can't really dip in and

103
00:06:11.459 --> 00:06:16.439
out, or you're like a procedural, like the next generation, and

104
00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:19.439
most episodes, pretty much all of them, are standalone, and at the

105
00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:21.899
beginning, the problem's there, at the end, the problem's solved

106
00:06:21.899 --> 00:06:22.800
and then off we go again.

107
00:06:22.860 --> 00:06:28.560
DS9 is quite unusual in that it absolutely has standalone episodes

108
00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:29.699
and a lot of them.

109
00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:34.439
But it does have this arc running through it as well, quite

110
00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:36.480
smartly as well.

111
00:06:36.540 --> 00:06:38.040
And I think come series 6.

112
00:06:38.100 --> 00:06:42.120
That's the point where 6 and 7 is where the arc is like heaviest

113
00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:45.540
and it has the most influence on every single episode.

114
00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:46.560
Like you look at six.

115
00:06:46.620 --> 00:06:51.360
There is a Dominion reference or it feeds into the main arm in

116
00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:51.720
some way.

117
00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:53.819
Uh, every single episode.

118
00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:57.720
But they still feel like individual pieces of drama in their own

119
00:06:57.720 --> 00:06:58.620
right, you know?

120
00:06:58.740 --> 00:07:01.079
And there's still space for one little ship.

121
00:07:01.139 --> 00:07:05.100
And the magnificent Ferengi, take me out to the hollow suite, that

122
00:07:05.100 --> 00:07:07.019
are being ba bang, you know, and things like that.

123
00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:11.459
Yeah, I think that that's where discovery actually lands, you know

124
00:07:11.459 --> 00:07:17.160
30 years later is basically standalone stories, but with an

125
00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:21.839
ongoing arc, an arc that comes to a head at the mid-season break

126
00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:25.680
which is actually where we are in discovery series 4 as we record

127
00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:26.279
this.

128
00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:27.060
Astonishing, really.

129
00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:28.259
I don't like it more than...

130
00:07:28.259 --> 00:07:29.699
I do, isn't it?

131
00:07:29.699 --> 00:07:36.180
But I think that that means that Deep Space 9 actually hits on a

132
00:07:36.180 --> 00:07:41.399
more kind of a mature and interesting way of telling a story by

133
00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:45.959
having a series of events that happened to a known group of people

134
00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:49.860
that are some ways sort of consistent.

135
00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:52.920
You know how lower decks always makes fun of the fact that, you

136
00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:56.399
know, this week someone's been taken over by an alien and this

137
00:07:56.399 --> 00:08:01.319
week, you know, a godlike entity is attacking us or whatever and

138
00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:05.459
our lives are ridiculous. where I can't remember the character was

139
00:08:05.459 --> 00:08:08.939
convinced that someone was under the influence and was going

140
00:08:08.939 --> 00:08:13.139
through every single trek cliche imaginable to try and expose

141
00:08:13.139 --> 00:08:13.379
them.

142
00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:14.279
Oh, yeah.

143
00:08:14.279 --> 00:08:15.480
It was so funny.

144
00:08:15.540 --> 00:08:18.899
No, it was Mariner trying to explain why Boimler had a girlfriend

145
00:08:18.899 --> 00:08:24.120
and like she burned through all of these stupid Star Trek

146
00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:24.720
premises.

147
00:08:24.779 --> 00:08:29.579
And, you know, like Deep Space 9 does do stupid Star Trek premises

148
00:08:29.579 --> 00:08:31.319
and absolutely does.

149
00:08:31.379 --> 00:08:35.700
But I do like what they attempt here.

150
00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:40.139
And so very quickly before we go in, I just want to say this

151
00:08:40.139 --> 00:08:44.220
episode, uh, initially was very different.

152
00:08:44.279 --> 00:08:46.440
I've been reading the Deep Space of My Companion.

153
00:08:46.500 --> 00:08:49.980
And initially, this was a Jake Sisco episode, right?

154
00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:55.500
And he was, you know, full-on reporter, Jake Sisco, for Starfleet

155
00:08:55.500 --> 00:09:01.919
News or whoever he writes for, and he discovers the plot to bring

156
00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:07.320
the Romulans into the war, and essentially, he has to decide

157
00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:09.779
whether to print and expose his father or not.

158
00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:13.200
That was like the basic premise of the story.

159
00:09:13.259 --> 00:09:17.100
And Ron Moore says when they were hashing this out because it's

160
00:09:17.100 --> 00:09:18.120
very much a writer's room.

161
00:09:18.179 --> 00:09:21.600
It might have Michael Taylor's name on the script, but like the

162
00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:25.320
final polish of this was written by Rob Moore, as ever, probably

163
00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:26.460
while the dialogue's so good.

164
00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:32.639
Um, that they just couldn't find a convincing way to have Jake and

165
00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:35.340
Cisco in conflict like this.

166
00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:37.019
And they just didn't want to go there, you know?

167
00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:38.159
Yeah, that's it.

168
00:09:38.220 --> 00:09:41.100
That was what I was just thinking who wants to see that?

169
00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:44.039
Like one of the great strengths of the show is the relationship

170
00:09:44.039 --> 00:09:46.620
between those 2 men.

171
00:09:47.580 --> 00:09:51.539
And I think that there is a moment in this episode as it lands

172
00:09:51.539 --> 00:09:55.620
that has conflict between 2 of the regulars that I don't buy at

173
00:09:55.620 --> 00:09:55.919
all.

174
00:09:55.980 --> 00:09:57.960
You're not talking about the people who get there.

175
00:09:58.019 --> 00:09:59.340
Sher and Cisco, are you?

176
00:09:59.399 --> 00:09:59.759
Yeah.

177
00:09:59.820 --> 00:10:01.559
I fucking love that scene.

178
00:10:01.620 --> 00:10:03.059
Oh, okay, yeah.

179
00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:06.539
Like, I think it's a good scene, but it just doesn't fit, you know

180
00:10:06.539 --> 00:10:09.179
with the established relationship between them.

181
00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:12.059
And obviously there's no consequences, which is another

182
00:10:12.059 --> 00:10:16.740
interesting choice that this episode makes and a good choice.

183
00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:17.519
I like it a lot.

184
00:10:17.580 --> 00:10:20.759
Well, and the other good choice they make is instead of Jake, they

185
00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:23.700
bring in Garak, and well, that's why this is amazing, you know.

186
00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:24.600
Yeah.

187
00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:26.399
Well, shall we?

188
00:10:26.460 --> 00:10:28.259
Yeah, I think we should.

189
00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:33.659
So I'm queued up at the beginning and I am ready to press play.

190
00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:35.519
So I'll count us in.

191
00:10:35.580 --> 00:10:36.120
Do so.

192
00:10:37.139 --> 00:10:42.240
Five, four, three, two, one.

193
00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:45.000
And we're off.

194
00:10:45.539 --> 00:10:50.940
Now I like, I very much like this framing device, um, because I

195
00:10:50.940 --> 00:10:52.980
feel like Cisco is only talking to me.

196
00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:54.840
No one else in the audience.

197
00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:58.799
Well, I actually think that...

198
00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:04.980
There are some shots where like this shot here where he shot from

199
00:11:04.980 --> 00:11:09.240
the side, I would actually prefer him to be speaking to the

200
00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:13.860
audience because the conceit that he's doing a personal log in

201
00:11:13.860 --> 00:11:17.700
order to hash things out isn't really very convincing.

202
00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:19.740
Like it's not realistic.

203
00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:22.740
It's a storytelling device.

204
00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:26.700
And I think that they, they were reluctant to lean into that as

205
00:11:26.700 --> 00:11:27.840
much as they should have.

206
00:11:27.899 --> 00:11:33.480
I think that having him just tell the audience what happened.

207
00:11:33.539 --> 00:11:37.320
I mean, that sets this episode apart because this episode is

208
00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:40.139
surprisingly distinctive.

209
00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:43.799
Like it's the only Star Trek episode, anything like this.

210
00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:49.799
And I think telling this story with that kind of narrative conceit

211
00:11:49.799 --> 00:11:50.700
is super interesting.

212
00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:52.139
Makes it even more unique. yeah.

213
00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:53.279
Yeah, yeah.

214
00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:56.100
Well, as well, like, you know, skipping right to the end, you know

215
00:11:56.100 --> 00:11:59.399
the, the, the report that he makes doesn't exist, does it?

216
00:11:59.460 --> 00:12:03.059
So the only people that are ever privy to this conversation are I

217
00:12:03.059 --> 00:12:04.080
was watching the audience.

218
00:12:04.139 --> 00:12:05.159
And I really love that.

219
00:12:05.220 --> 00:12:09.659
Yeah, I mean, he basically deletes the episode at the end.

220
00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:11.340
Also as well.

221
00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:17.159
So if this is him telling us or the rapport, a story.

222
00:12:17.220 --> 00:12:21.960
Is this a reliable story then, is what we're seeing, what actually

223
00:12:21.960 --> 00:12:22.379
happened?

224
00:12:22.379 --> 00:12:24.179
Because essentially we're seeing flashbacks.

225
00:12:24.539 --> 00:12:26.460
As told by him.

226
00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:28.200
Well, I think it is.

227
00:12:28.259 --> 00:12:32.759
I don't think Star Trek really does the unreliable narrator and

228
00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:36.240
certainly wouldn't make Cisco the unreliable narrator.

229
00:12:36.299 --> 00:12:37.679
They did it once delivery.

230
00:12:37.740 --> 00:12:40.679
Do you remember there's matter of perspective in TNG, where they

231
00:12:40.679 --> 00:12:41.820
had everyone tell us.

232
00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:43.679
I don't think they did it very well, but they tried.

233
00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:44.879
Yeah.

234
00:12:44.940 --> 00:12:47.340
I actually don't mind that episode, I have to say.

235
00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:50.700
Grim is this that they all go in and have a look at a list once a

236
00:12:50.700 --> 00:12:52.919
week to see who's done.

237
00:12:52.980 --> 00:12:53.700
I mean, I get it.

238
00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:57.419
Like you would want to know if somebody that you love or a friend

239
00:12:57.419 --> 00:12:58.679
of yours has been murdered.

240
00:12:58.740 --> 00:13:02.519
But the inference is, is that there is just a wave of murder

241
00:13:02.519 --> 00:13:05.159
occurring at the moment. you know, war as hell.

242
00:13:05.220 --> 00:13:09.840
Look at Genzier, Genzier is usually so sort of chill and nothing

243
00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:15.059
kind of stresses her and she's super hard-faced here and she's

244
00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:18.779
super angry about the fact that the Romulans are allowing the

245
00:13:18.779 --> 00:13:22.919
Dominion to do this, like to make the Cairo disappear and she

246
00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:24.600
claims it's happened 100s of times.

247
00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.360
I do love this setup.

248
00:13:27.419 --> 00:13:29.519
Really, someone should bring the Romulans into the war.

249
00:13:29.580 --> 00:13:31.259
Oh, suddenly I have an idea.

250
00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:35.399
This is the biggest problem with the Space 9 right now.

251
00:13:35.460 --> 00:13:38.820
And it's because they don't trust the audience to keep up, right?

252
00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:43.559
So in a minute, there's an info dub where Jazier goes, you know, um

253
00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:47.519
uh, they are our allies and why would they get involved?

254
00:13:47.580 --> 00:13:50.220
And it's like regurgitating information. that we, as regular

255
00:13:50.220 --> 00:13:53.759
viewers of this show, know that someone coming in would need to

256
00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:55.440
know it in order for this episode to act.

257
00:13:55.500 --> 00:13:58.200
And DS9 is guilty of this a fair amount.

258
00:13:58.259 --> 00:14:02.340
And they tend to get away with it, but sometimes it's bit punky.

259
00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:07.740
Well, I mean, the way that the way that modern Star Trek avoids

260
00:14:07.740 --> 00:14:11.820
that is with the previously on Star Trek, which is not part of the

261
00:14:11.820 --> 00:14:12.539
narrative.

262
00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:15.299
And I think that that's something we've learned worse.

263
00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:19.740
Season seven, you'll notice over half the episodes of season 7

264
00:14:19.740 --> 00:14:21.840
have previously on, so they get a lot.

265
00:14:21.899 --> 00:14:23.580
So they've kind of figured it out by then.

266
00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:27.000
You know, and in that sort of last 10 episodes, where it's one

267
00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:28.440
long narrative.

268
00:14:28.500 --> 00:14:29.879
They've got to do it.

269
00:14:29.940 --> 00:14:31.620
Otherwise, you know, where the heck, aren't we?

270
00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:31.919
you know?

271
00:14:31.980 --> 00:14:32.340
Yeah.

272
00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:36.299
But that's a good decision rather than having it part of a drama

273
00:14:36.299 --> 00:14:39.480
where people are explaining their recent history to each other.

274
00:14:42.539 --> 00:14:48.240
So we're doing the opening credits again.

275
00:14:48.659 --> 00:14:50.940
How do we feel about them?

276
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:51.779
Do we still feel the same?

277
00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:56.639
I'll tell you what, I feel about very strongly, and that's that

278
00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:59.159
lovely little man who goes flying through space with the, of

279
00:14:59.159 --> 00:14:59.519
sorry.

280
00:14:59.580 --> 00:15:01.080
My favourite bit of the title sequence.

281
00:15:01.139 --> 00:15:03.179
And I know you said you quite like this.

282
00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:07.559
I mean, you know, I'm the biggest this man in the world, but it's

283
00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:09.120
a bit dull this time.

284
00:15:09.179 --> 00:15:12.720
Yeah, they can't break away from their original premise, which is

285
00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:17.100
that this is an outpost in the, you know, far away where nothing

286
00:15:17.100 --> 00:15:18.120
very much happens.

287
00:15:18.179 --> 00:15:21.659
So you're fling a few more spaceships on there, starting with

288
00:15:21.659 --> 00:15:22.139
series 4.

289
00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:26.580
And of course, we do need to make the point that Kurtzman track

290
00:15:26.580 --> 00:15:31.500
has vastly better title sequences for all of its shows than...

291
00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:33.419
I will not disagree.

292
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:42.000
I want to quickly have a moment to talk about Avery Brooks. as an

293
00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:42.480
actor.

294
00:15:42.539 --> 00:15:47.159
And I think he brings something incredibly distinct to DS9.

295
00:15:47.580 --> 00:15:50.580
He's what I call a dangerous actor.

296
00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:56.519
Um, because I think he's very accomplished, but sometimes he can

297
00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:00.600
tip over into, I could the point of a few moments where I'm just

298
00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:03.120
like, 0 no, like, you know, he goes for it.

299
00:16:03.179 --> 00:16:04.679
He absolutely goes for it.

300
00:16:04.740 --> 00:16:08.820
And usually that means the results are surprising and really

301
00:16:08.820 --> 00:16:09.480
engaging.

302
00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:12.240
And occasionally it goes over a cliff, you know, and just goes a

303
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:15.360
bit over the top and it's, it's not great.

304
00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:16.620
But I always want to watch him.

305
00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:17.759
I'm always drawn to him.

306
00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:21.600
I've been thinking, and I don't know whether it's true.

307
00:16:21.659 --> 00:16:25.500
Like he's super reserved most of the time and particularly early

308
00:16:25.500 --> 00:16:26.940
on.

309
00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:31.919
Um, and there is a point in this episode where he kind of loses it

310
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.860
and he's losing it when he's talking to us when he's talking to

311
00:16:34.860 --> 00:16:35.399
camera.

312
00:16:35.460 --> 00:16:41.580
And I'm not sure it's convincing psychologically, you know, like I

313
00:16:41.580 --> 00:16:42.419
don't think...

314
00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:44.940
I'm not talking about the people where he's like, people are dying

315
00:16:44.940 --> 00:16:45.419
out there.

316
00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:46.799
Yeah, every day.

317
00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:50.460
Entire worlds are struggling for their freedom.

318
00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:55.200
Him delivering it is so watchable.

319
00:16:55.259 --> 00:16:59.519
And I think that sometimes he goes for what's entertaining rather

320
00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:01.860
than what psychologically real.

321
00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:06.359
Like what the drama needs, you know, it's not sort of Stanislavsky

322
00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:06.839
or anything.

323
00:17:06.900 --> 00:17:08.579
He's not being a method actor.

324
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:13.200
He's doing what English actors were doing at the time, which is

325
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:17.160
conveying information to the audience through their performance

326
00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:19.740
rather than trying to mimic being a real person.

327
00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:21.599
And I think it really works.

328
00:17:21.660 --> 00:17:23.339
I think he's got a great voice.

329
00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:27.359
I, he, he's dangerous.

330
00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:29.519
He is passionate.

331
00:17:29.579 --> 00:17:33.779
Like, like, the word edgy is bounded around a bit too much, I

332
00:17:33.779 --> 00:17:36.660
think, but there are moments where he is a little edgy.

333
00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:39.900
I think it's because he's physically imposing, you know.

334
00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:42.299
So there's moments where he shoves, like, the bit in this with

335
00:17:42.299 --> 00:17:44.819
Toda, where he shoves him against the wall and he's like, you know

336
00:17:44.819 --> 00:17:47.279
and I'll send you back to the Klingon empire and tell them to take

337
00:17:47.279 --> 00:17:49.140
their time while they execute you.

338
00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:51.299
You know, you're like, oh, my God.

339
00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:54.299
I would not want you to be my boss, all right?

340
00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:57.660
I wonder why he does that.

341
00:17:57.720 --> 00:17:59.099
We'll get there, I think.

342
00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:05.880
I really quite like the scene that we just talked through, which

343
00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:09.900
is Jadzia pretending to be a Romulan, and it is kind of an info

344
00:18:09.900 --> 00:18:10.200
dump.

345
00:18:10.259 --> 00:18:11.279
Yeah.

346
00:18:11.339 --> 00:18:14.039
When he says to her, you'd be a great Romula.

347
00:18:14.099 --> 00:18:15.480
Like, yep, yes, she would.

348
00:18:15.539 --> 00:18:17.460
Yeah, she's really good.

349
00:18:17.819 --> 00:18:19.619
That's amazing.

350
00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:21.119
Oh my god, here he is.

351
00:18:21.180 --> 00:18:22.559
Andrew Robinson is Garrick.

352
00:18:22.619 --> 00:18:22.799
Okay.

353
00:18:22.859 --> 00:18:25.319
Now, look, we've talked about MVPs before.

354
00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:27.660
Wow, I know.

355
00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:30.299
He's one of the MVPs of DS9.

356
00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:32.400
There are so many great actors involved in this show.

357
00:18:32.460 --> 00:18:39.599
But, um, as an example of the stunning semi-regular cast.

358
00:18:39.660 --> 00:18:42.660
I mean, oh, it's just so good.

359
00:18:42.779 --> 00:18:46.380
I don't even think this is his best episode and it's a great

360
00:18:46.380 --> 00:18:47.160
episode for him.

361
00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:50.460
It's, is it a Ronald Moore thing?

362
00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:53.759
Like the, this sort of large regular cast.

363
00:18:53.819 --> 00:18:56.039
Like you've got, you're stuck with the people in the opening

364
00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:59.880
credits, uh, you know, the people who are emotionally cast.

365
00:18:59.940 --> 00:19:01.500
No, no, no, no, no.

366
00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:03.480
But you have the opportunity then.

367
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:07.140
If you decide, I guess it's what the Simpsons did.

368
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:12.660
You know, they took one, they took characters from like a single

369
00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:15.359
episode and just made them regulars because they thought they were

370
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:16.559
or they were funny.

371
00:19:16.619 --> 00:19:21.059
And more runs the show.

372
00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:22.859
He's not, you know, J.

373
00:19:22.859 --> 00:19:26.339
Michael Strazinsky, who has a 14 year plan.

374
00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:31.740
Like, he looks at the show as it's happening, decides what works

375
00:19:31.740 --> 00:19:33.839
and then goes, let's have more of that.

376
00:19:33.900 --> 00:19:39.000
I mean, I mean, I'd say it's more Ira Bear that's kind of in full

377
00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:41.700
creative control, but they were they were like a band of brothers

378
00:19:41.700 --> 00:19:45.720
and, you know, they they love the show, but they as good as a

379
00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:46.079
mere.

380
00:19:46.140 --> 00:19:47.039
They improvised.

381
00:19:47.099 --> 00:19:51.000
So if things worked, yeah, like Garrick's in one episode, the

382
00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:53.460
series one, the 2nd episode passed Prolong, it doesn't appear

383
00:19:53.460 --> 00:19:58.740
again until early season two. then he has a couple of appearances

384
00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:01.740
towards the ends of two, and then from 3 onwards, That's when he

385
00:20:01.740 --> 00:20:04.019
becomes and they're like, this guy is amazing.

386
00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:08.099
We can write him really well, like he's enigmatic, he's mysterious

387
00:20:08.099 --> 00:20:09.599
he's interesting.

388
00:20:09.660 --> 00:20:10.380
Let's keep moving.

389
00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:13.140
His camp is funny and, you know, like...

390
00:20:13.140 --> 00:20:13.799
He's seen to watch.

391
00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:20.160
He's seen to have met such an interesting threat and his hands on

392
00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:20.700
his shoulder.

393
00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:22.380
Like, it's so great.

394
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:27.420
Oh, no, here's the bad news.

395
00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:28.799
Paul Beta Zed.

396
00:20:28.859 --> 00:20:29.700
I know.

397
00:20:29.940 --> 00:20:33.779
I was wondering why it wasn't Teller, you know, like, oh, something

398
00:20:33.779 --> 00:20:34.019
else.

399
00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:37.500
I actually think it's kind of hilarious that it's spader's head.

400
00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:40.799
Oh, Shay, we couldn't have had this could have been. getting the

401
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:41.339
news, know?

402
00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:44.880
Your mother was on the planet as well.

403
00:20:44.940 --> 00:20:46.680
She's a victim of the Gemadal.

404
00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:49.079
Does she come back after this?

405
00:20:49.140 --> 00:20:49.920
Maybe she does.

406
00:20:49.980 --> 00:20:55.859
No, she ducks out of DS9 in season 4 and she was quite vocal about

407
00:20:55.859 --> 00:20:58.920
how Gene would not have approved of how this show was going.

408
00:20:58.980 --> 00:20:59.940
Wow.

409
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:00.660
Okay.

410
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:02.819
Yeah. too interesting.

411
00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:05.880
Well, yeah, and her last episode is that dreadful one.

412
00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:10.559
Do you remember where Jake Sisko is the muse, the woman stroking

413
00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.799
his head and taking all the creative out of him?

414
00:21:13.859 --> 00:21:15.599
It's a really bad episode so maybe.

415
00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:18.359
And one before that was fascination where they had the love

416
00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:18.960
virus.

417
00:21:19.019 --> 00:21:22.799
So maybe every time Alexana Troy appears on the station. you know

418
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:23.700
the show shit.

419
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:24.720
Shit things happening.

420
00:21:24.779 --> 00:21:25.200
Yeah.

421
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:33.180
Okay, so now Garak is going to invent a terrifically sort of

422
00:21:33.180 --> 00:21:37.079
Machiavellian plan to bring the Romulans into the war.

423
00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:43.740
So, Easy telling the truth here.

424
00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:47.940
So he says that he's contacted, like, it's pretty clear at the

425
00:21:47.940 --> 00:21:48.299
end.

426
00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:52.019
And one of the things that really works in this episode that is

427
00:21:52.019 --> 00:21:56.460
kind of impossible to recapture because you know how it goes is

428
00:21:56.460 --> 00:21:59.940
that it is actually really, really suspenseful.

429
00:21:59.940 --> 00:22:06.000
And the stakes are incredibly high, even though it's all word

430
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:06.539
peril.

431
00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:12.180
And what's at stake is the direction that the show goes in?

432
00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:19.079
And we know, don't we, at this point, that, um, like events like

433
00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:21.059
this will have a massive impact on the show.

434
00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:23.700
So we know that if this goes wrong.

435
00:22:24.119 --> 00:22:28.559
Yeah, as it looks like it does later, then the shit has hit the

436
00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:30.720
fan and things could be really bad going forward.

437
00:22:30.779 --> 00:22:35.160
It also looks like it's going to go wrong because of what Cisco

438
00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:39.539
says in his opening monologue as well, where he says, you know, I

439
00:22:39.539 --> 00:22:43.500
don't know how things went so wrong and how I went so wrong.

440
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:48.119
And watching that again, when we know that the plan actually

441
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:50.940
worked, is really interesting.

442
00:22:50.940 --> 00:22:54.180
Because despite what he says at the end of the episode.

443
00:22:54.180 --> 00:22:57.359
At the beginning of the episode, he's characterising this as a

444
00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:58.440
disaster.

445
00:22:58.619 --> 00:23:01.319
And I think that works.

446
00:23:01.380 --> 00:23:03.000
You think Garak's face there?

447
00:23:03.059 --> 00:23:05.160
I don't know why anyone wouldn't trust that man, honestly.

448
00:23:05.220 --> 00:23:06.900
It was perfect. trustworthy.

449
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:07.440
Do you know what?

450
00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:08.759
He has a moment in there as well.

451
00:23:08.819 --> 00:23:11.220
The thing I love about Garak is no matter how serious he is

452
00:23:11.220 --> 00:23:13.079
there's always a moment for a comic line.

453
00:23:13.140 --> 00:23:16.980
A bit where he just goes on, unfortunately, they're all dead now.

454
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:18.000
Yes, yeah.

455
00:23:18.059 --> 00:23:21.059
I'm dead within one day of speaking to me and I'm like, that is

456
00:23:21.059 --> 00:23:21.420
dark.

457
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:22.740
That's really dark.

458
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:24.660
Is he telling the truth?

459
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:26.400
Okay, this is funny.

460
00:23:26.460 --> 00:23:27.960
No, well, that's right.

461
00:23:28.019 --> 00:23:29.339
There isn't a truth.

462
00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:30.299
I mean, it didn't really happen.

463
00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:31.140
That's all we have.

464
00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:37.619
But it's just possible that we're meant to think that he already

465
00:23:37.619 --> 00:23:39.480
knows what he's going to do, doesn't he?

466
00:23:39.539 --> 00:23:40.859
He knows.

467
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:41.700
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

468
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:48.299
And so he is telling Cisco that Cisco's original plan didn't

469
00:23:48.299 --> 00:23:48.660
work.

470
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:54.180
And I kind of want to secretly believe that Garak would just, like

471
00:23:54.180 --> 00:24:00.359
he wouldn't burn all of his contacts, you know, call in all of his

472
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:04.559
favours on Cardassia Prime, only to have them all killed.

473
00:24:04.619 --> 00:24:07.740
I think he would say, well, I've done that.

474
00:24:08.940 --> 00:24:13.200
And it hasn't worked, so we'll just have to lure a guy onto the

475
00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:15.599
station so I can plant a bomb on his shuttle.

476
00:24:15.660 --> 00:24:16.259
You know?

477
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:20.460
Very subtle approach. to all of this.

478
00:24:20.579 --> 00:24:22.619
Do you know what I love as well?

479
00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:24.960
I love the fact that the characters on this show are so distinct

480
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:29.460
that it's, we're not there yet, so I'm kind of preempting this, but

481
00:24:29.460 --> 00:24:33.779
the bit where there's the recording of the supposed invasion of

482
00:24:33.779 --> 00:24:38.099
Cardassia is like, all we had to do was add some neutral loathing

483
00:24:38.099 --> 00:24:39.000
between the characters.

484
00:24:39.059 --> 00:24:41.579
And we're like, but we're like in our heads.

485
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:45.779
Yeah, we've seen these characters as absolutely how you would sell

486
00:24:45.779 --> 00:24:46.799
that scene, you know?

487
00:24:46.859 --> 00:24:47.339
Yeah.

488
00:24:48.779 --> 00:24:52.019
Yeah, so this is the pretend plan.

489
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:55.920
And it's hilarious that the pretend plan is we just make a fake

490
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:59.940
deleted scene from a Deep Space 9 episode and give it to the guy

491
00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:02.339
and it'll be on this.

492
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:06.599
You know, it'll be on a magical rod thing that will convince

493
00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:07.740
everyone that it's real.

494
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:11.700
And Cisco kind of goes, oh, you know, well, that's very deceptive

495
00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:15.240
but, you know, we might have to go along with that and Starfleet

496
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:15.900
goes along with it.

497
00:25:16.019 --> 00:25:17.759
I don't like that, though.

498
00:25:17.819 --> 00:25:20.940
That's the one creative choice that I do not like in this episode

499
00:25:20.940 --> 00:25:24.000
is that he says, oh, well, Starfleet approved of this, so I'm off

500
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:24.539
the hook.

501
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:26.880
So at that point, I'm like, well, what stakes are in this for you

502
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:27.119
then?

503
00:25:27.180 --> 00:25:28.380
If this has been a fruit.

504
00:25:28.740 --> 00:25:31.920
Like if this was just you doing this plan and then maybe you had

505
00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:32.940
to tell Starfleet then.

506
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:33.660
Okay, I've done this.

507
00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:34.740
This is what I've done.

508
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:35.220
Yeah.

509
00:25:35.220 --> 00:25:43.500
But Garrett presents Cisco with a plan that is bad, you know, it's

510
00:25:43.500 --> 00:25:47.220
telling lies to someone to get them to come into the war.

511
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:52.200
And if they were found out, it would be absolutely disastrous.

512
00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:56.339
But it's a plan that Cisco will accept while still feeling bad

513
00:25:56.339 --> 00:26:01.319
about it, but one that Starfleet will reluctantly approve of, given

514
00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:04.380
the kind of state of the war.

515
00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:06.900
But it was never his real plan.

516
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:08.039
That's not his plan.

517
00:26:08.099 --> 00:26:09.779
Do you know what as well, though?

518
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:14.819
I think Garak really enjoys, you know, raking Cisco through the

519
00:26:14.819 --> 00:26:15.059
mud.

520
00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:18.539
I think he gets a perverse pleasure out of making him do things

521
00:26:18.539 --> 00:26:20.940
that, you know, is really uncomfortable with.

522
00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:22.440
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

523
00:26:22.500 --> 00:26:26.099
And we get it played on the same, well, on a smaller scale with

524
00:26:26.099 --> 00:26:27.599
Quark a little bit later on.

525
00:26:27.660 --> 00:26:29.519
I think it's a great scene.

526
00:26:29.579 --> 00:26:34.619
So one of the problems, I think, with this episode, though, is

527
00:26:34.619 --> 00:26:38.460
that this blue guy is so loathsome.

528
00:26:38.579 --> 00:26:41.880
Like, he's a funny, great Fontola.

529
00:26:41.940 --> 00:26:45.180
Oh, for God's sake, Greython space name.

530
00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:49.500
And he's he's so loathsome.

531
00:26:49.619 --> 00:26:53.819
And Renak, Senator of Renak, is horrible. such a prick.

532
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:55.859
Do you know what?

533
00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:57.119
They're both memorable, though.

534
00:26:57.180 --> 00:26:59.279
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

535
00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:02.519
You know, I like this where he's like, oh, one or 2 are Ryan's

536
00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:04.380
slave girl. some porn.

537
00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:06.059
I'm going to do a porn thing for you.

538
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:09.359
I'd say, you know, how dare you cast aspersions on Cisco and I

539
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:12.059
suggest you want some sex, you know, porn holiday.

540
00:27:12.119 --> 00:27:14.339
But then think about Janeway in Fairhaven, you know?

541
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:15.779
That's it.

542
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:17.220
That's where she fucks the holiday.

543
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:19.740
It's not out of the realms of possibility, you know.

544
00:27:20.819 --> 00:27:24.480
Do you know what's the best line with Tola?

545
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:26.099
is when Garrett goes.

546
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:28.440
I'll be along later to say hello.

547
00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:30.539
Yes.

548
00:27:30.539 --> 00:27:32.940
But is that I'll be along later.

549
00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:34.920
No, do you know what my favourite line is?

550
00:27:34.980 --> 00:27:37.980
is where Garak says, I've left him with the impression that if he

551
00:27:37.980 --> 00:27:43.500
goes through the door, it will explode and Cisco says, I hope

552
00:27:43.500 --> 00:27:46.799
you're bluffing and he kind of fobs it off.

553
00:27:46.859 --> 00:27:50.400
So I think the door really is rigged to explode.

554
00:27:50.460 --> 00:27:51.960
And given that...

555
00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:57.720
Like Garak just wouldn't work on Voyager or TNG, would it?

556
00:27:57.779 --> 00:27:59.160
He was perfect for this show.

557
00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:00.599
Okay, this is terrific.

558
00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:05.099
I like it when he goes, cork in an un, what is it, uncharacteristic

559
00:28:05.099 --> 00:28:06.119
act of chivalry.

560
00:28:06.180 --> 00:28:08.160
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

561
00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:12.000
Well, he was tearing her expensive clothes, I think, probably.

562
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:14.400
And that's the other thing too.

563
00:28:14.460 --> 00:28:19.920
Like, Tollah is so shit because, you know, he can do a holiday

564
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:24.180
program and stuff, but he's here undercover, but he still gets

565
00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:27.779
pissed, starts a bar fight, you know, stabs someone.

566
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:29.220
Like he's an idiot.

567
00:28:30.299 --> 00:28:35.880
I do like this scene now where Quark is fricking loving the fact

568
00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:38.940
that Cisco is swirming at having to silence him.

569
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:40.619
Yeah, yeah.

570
00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:43.559
And it's very honest to Odo as well, because he says, you know, as

571
00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:45.660
a matter of law, I will make a statement.

572
00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:49.859
I understand that there's a security operation going on, but, you

573
00:28:49.859 --> 00:28:51.720
know, I'm a man of integrity.

574
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:53.220
We just have to do it.

575
00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:57.180
Yeah, yeah, if he gets arrested, you know, if Quark presses

576
00:28:57.180 --> 00:28:59.579
charges, I have to arrest him.

577
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:00.299
What's he going to do?

578
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:03.720
It's honest to all the characters, isn't it?

579
00:29:03.779 --> 00:29:06.900
It's like, and I think I said to you before, like the characters

580
00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:08.220
are so distinct on this show now.

581
00:29:08.279 --> 00:29:11.579
Like some of these episodes are practically self-perpetuating.

582
00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:12.839
Like they almost frighten themselves.

583
00:29:12.900 --> 00:29:16.680
You have a great, a terrific premise, like we're going to bring

584
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:17.819
the robiners into the war.

585
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:20.880
And then just automatically interesting things happen with those

586
00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:25.140
characters, you know, like, like naturally, interesting things

587
00:29:25.140 --> 00:29:28.500
happen with these characters with a premise like that because they

588
00:29:28.500 --> 00:29:29.279
are so strong.

589
00:29:29.339 --> 00:29:30.180
Well, what are we now?

590
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:31.680
We're halfway through season six.

591
00:29:31.859 --> 00:29:33.240
Yeah.

592
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:40.500
Yeah, so this scene is exactly that because we know what Cisco's

593
00:29:40.500 --> 00:29:42.779
like, we know what Quark is like.

594
00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:47.460
Quark, maybe more than any other character, behaves like Quark in

595
00:29:47.460 --> 00:29:48.180
every scene.

596
00:29:48.539 --> 00:29:53.339
You know, I described them when we did our 1st Deep Space 9

597
00:29:53.339 --> 00:29:53.759
episode.

598
00:29:53.819 --> 00:29:57.420
I said that he was like a sitcom character in that, you know how

599
00:29:57.420 --> 00:30:01.019
he's going to react in a particular situation.

600
00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:02.519
And he's not a character who grows.

601
00:30:02.579 --> 00:30:04.859
Plenty of the others changed throughout the time.

602
00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:10.500
They make a joke of that in in the dogs of war, and that he goes

603
00:30:10.500 --> 00:30:13.619
you know, well, you might make Ron the Grandmakers, but this will

604
00:30:13.619 --> 00:30:18.119
be the last outpost of the Ferengi, uh, I recognise, you know, I

605
00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:18.839
will not change.

606
00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:29.640
Come PC. So, so here we get this incredibly great scene and what's

607
00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:32.700
great about it is Avery's acting as well.

608
00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:33.599
He doesn't overdo it.

609
00:30:33.660 --> 00:30:35.759
So uncomfortable, isn't he?

610
00:30:35.819 --> 00:30:39.480
Fitching in his chair, like, oh, I do not want to be here doing

611
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:43.259
this, protecting that fucking arsehole that's stabbed Impella.

612
00:30:43.319 --> 00:30:51.299
And and also he doesn't want quiet to have it over him as well.

613
00:30:51.420 --> 00:30:55.319
He's uncomfortable because Quark is winning in this scene and that

614
00:30:55.319 --> 00:30:56.460
doesn't normally happen.

615
00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:01.680
You know, normally, uh, he would shut down the request about the

616
00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:04.920
cargo stuff that's stuck in the cargo bay.

617
00:31:04.980 --> 00:31:09.480
My favourite line, though, is I think we can call that a brine

618
00:31:09.480 --> 00:31:11.099
instead of a deal.

619
00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:15.660
I think it's... pushes it home at the end.

620
00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:19.559
It's like every man has his price. and it does his eyebrow thing.

621
00:31:19.619 --> 00:31:22.980
Oh, here she'll see where he's emoting to the camera now.

622
00:31:23.099 --> 00:31:24.599
Yeah, yeah.

623
00:31:24.660 --> 00:31:25.619
Yeah.

624
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:30.180
And like he's overreacting to what he's had to do.

625
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:32.759
It's been pretty small stakes, hasn't it?

626
00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:33.900
He hasn't really done.

627
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:36.119
It is in terms...

628
00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:38.519
He persuades Quark not to...

629
00:31:38.579 --> 00:31:42.839
In terms of how our Starfleet captain behaves in the Rottenberry

630
00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:43.380
universe.

631
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:45.059
It is kind of a big deal.

632
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.240
And I think that's why this episode is a big deal, is because it

633
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.480
is pushing against what we've come to expect.

634
00:31:51.539 --> 00:31:52.559
Yeah.

635
00:31:52.619 --> 00:31:57.180
But remember in the pilot, he does a deal with Quark to get him to

636
00:31:57.180 --> 00:32:01.319
stay by arresting what, nog or something.

637
00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:06.180
And like he does this sort of dodgy deal because it's not the

638
00:32:06.180 --> 00:32:09.420
federation anymore and he has to kind of moderate the way he

639
00:32:09.420 --> 00:32:11.579
behaves in this new context.

640
00:32:11.640 --> 00:32:13.799
So at this point, he hasn't done anything very bad.

641
00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:18.599
We talk a bit about 90s trek music.

642
00:32:18.660 --> 00:32:21.359
Okay, I really love the music in this episode.

643
00:32:21.420 --> 00:32:25.559
I think it's foreboding and quite some, but there's a bit there

644
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:29.039
where he's like, and so I pressed on and every time, you know, a

645
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:30.359
new doubt appeared in my head.

646
00:32:30.420 --> 00:32:33.660
I shoved it aside with rationalisation and the music underscoring

647
00:32:33.660 --> 00:32:33.900
that.

648
00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:35.400
It's really dark.

649
00:32:35.460 --> 00:32:39.720
It's David Bell, who was brought in halfway through series 5 and

650
00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:42.599
they use him a lot because they realised, 0 my God, there's

651
00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:44.819
someone doing something a bit different, you know, from Dennis

652
00:32:44.819 --> 00:32:46.799
McCarthy and Jay Chataway and, you know.

653
00:32:46.859 --> 00:32:47.700
Yeah, yeah.

654
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:49.380
Look, it's still barely noticeable.

655
00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:54.359
Under said word.

656
00:32:54.420 --> 00:32:56.400
I like this as well.

657
00:32:56.460 --> 00:33:00.000
This is a collect, um, this reminds me of those X-File scenes down

658
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:02.519
in the car park where it's like all these tight close-ups, these

659
00:33:02.519 --> 00:33:07.259
clandestine meetings in like, Again, it's not very Star Trek, is

660
00:33:07.259 --> 00:33:07.500
it?

661
00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:07.859
You know?

662
00:33:08.099 --> 00:33:11.700
No, I mean, they're what they're in the turbo lift.

663
00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:13.859
Heading to Ops.

664
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:15.000
I do like the ops thing.

665
00:33:15.059 --> 00:33:16.680
Does Garak ever appear in ops?

666
00:33:16.740 --> 00:33:17.579
A couple of times.

667
00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:20.460
He appears in obviously that one where the Cardassian security

668
00:33:20.460 --> 00:33:22.559
device goes off and, you know, the...

669
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:24.119
Oh, yeah, yeah. blown away over the place.

670
00:33:24.180 --> 00:33:25.019
So much fun.

671
00:33:25.619 --> 00:33:28.380
The bit where he casually says here.

672
00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:29.700
I know he's using it for.

673
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:32.339
I'm assuming it's something to do with genetic manipulation.

674
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:34.319
I'm like, 0 my god, that is dark.

675
00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:37.980
Yeah, yeah.

676
00:33:38.700 --> 00:33:46.440
And and I guess the biomedic gel thing is so that we can have that

677
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:47.579
scene with Julian.

678
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:51.299
Oh, I guess also, it's a prohibited substance, isn't it?

679
00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:53.819
He could give him Latinum.

680
00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:54.299
That'd be fine.

681
00:33:54.359 --> 00:33:57.539
I don't think that's a lot, but we have heard of biometic gel

682
00:33:57.539 --> 00:34:01.200
before and that it is kind of outlawed and yeah.

683
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:04.500
Yeah.

684
00:34:04.740 --> 00:34:09.059
Oh God, I just, you know what, Andrew Robinson just relishes every

685
00:34:09.059 --> 00:34:09.420
line.

686
00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:10.260
Look at his face.

687
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:14.639
In fact, they're quite different as actors, which works really

688
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:20.039
well because they're supposed to be mismatched, whereas Avery is

689
00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:21.780
very restrained.

690
00:34:21.780 --> 00:34:27.179
Do you know what I like about this scene between Bashir and

691
00:34:27.179 --> 00:34:27.719
Cisco?

692
00:34:27.780 --> 00:34:34.500
And that is, Avery Brooks is a very imposing man and, um, Sidi, Sid

693
00:34:34.500 --> 00:34:35.699
is quite slight.

694
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:37.679
And yet there's a couple of scenes.

695
00:34:37.739 --> 00:34:40.019
There's another one in honour of mother's feet where he confronts

696
00:34:40.019 --> 00:34:45.480
Cisco and he's not intimidated by him at all.

697
00:34:45.539 --> 00:34:48.480
I think it takes quite an actor, you know, to go up against Avery

698
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:49.019
Brooks.

699
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:52.619
Yeah, I love the way he delivers the line about wanting it in

700
00:34:52.619 --> 00:34:53.159
writing.

701
00:34:53.219 --> 00:34:56.699
I think that's really particularly good, but I don't buy this at

702
00:34:56.699 --> 00:35:00.960
all because, you know, they'll be mates next week or whatever.

703
00:35:01.019 --> 00:35:04.139
They'll have a friendly relationship and this will never go

704
00:35:04.139 --> 00:35:04.739
anywhere.

705
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:12.539
And maybe it is a relic of the Jake Cisco premise that they

706
00:35:12.539 --> 00:35:13.440
originally had.

707
00:35:13.500 --> 00:35:16.500
This is the conflict between the 2 characters.

708
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:18.119
I'm not sure it really properly lands.

709
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:20.579
How have we gotten this far into DSI?

710
00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:23.579
This is our 3rd episode of DS9 that we've done now?

711
00:35:23.579 --> 00:35:26.039
and we've not seen Jeffrey Coombes as Wayoon yet?

712
00:35:26.099 --> 00:35:26.880
Yeah.

713
00:35:26.940 --> 00:35:27.719
Oh okay.

714
00:35:28.199 --> 00:35:30.179
Isn't he wonderful?

715
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:31.619
So good.

716
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:32.579
He's so great.

717
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:35.880
I think Casey Briggs is kind of underrated as well.

718
00:35:35.940 --> 00:35:37.199
I think he's really properly good.

719
00:35:37.260 --> 00:35:41.099
I don't think anyone expects it, not even Casey Biggs, who is

720
00:35:41.099 --> 00:35:43.500
Roxanne Dawson's ex-husband. by the way.

721
00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:45.300
Oh my god, yes, Big's Dawson.

722
00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:48.900
That's right I don't think anyone ever suspected that DeMar would

723
00:35:48.900 --> 00:35:51.900
have such a massive role. in season 7 after.

724
00:35:52.019 --> 00:35:54.000
Like, he's such a villain when he starts off.

725
00:35:54.059 --> 00:35:56.820
Remember the bit where Kira kicks a shit out of him in the cargo

726
00:35:56.820 --> 00:35:57.179
babe?

727
00:35:57.239 --> 00:35:59.340
He lays his hands on his out.

728
00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:01.079
I don't think anyone saw that coming.

729
00:36:01.139 --> 00:36:05.579
But Jeffrey Coombes, like Andrew Robinson, like Renee Obichonoir

730
00:36:05.579 --> 00:36:05.940
as well.

731
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:08.340
I think they can take any line and make it sing.

732
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:12.539
No matter how functional the line is, you know?

733
00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:13.920
Yeah, yeah.

734
00:36:13.980 --> 00:36:15.059
They do something with it.

735
00:36:15.420 --> 00:36:16.920
Yeah.

736
00:36:16.980 --> 00:36:20.579
And I think that's a that's a huge strength of DS9 is that you've

737
00:36:20.579 --> 00:36:26.880
got a cast of actors and primarily actors that have learnt their

738
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:31.380
trade in the theatre and I think you can tell that there are big

739
00:36:31.380 --> 00:36:34.980
performances, you know, there's a fair bit of projection.

740
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:36.780
There's a lot of character involved.

741
00:36:36.840 --> 00:36:40.079
You know, you skip over to Enterprise and it's a lot of made for

742
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:41.940
TV actors and you can tell.

743
00:36:42.059 --> 00:36:43.860
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

744
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:44.579
Yeah.

745
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:48.420
I mean, this is virtually a play.

746
00:36:49.139 --> 00:36:51.780
It's got the artifice, isn't it?

747
00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:52.920
This is absolutely a bottle show.

748
00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:54.960
It really is.

749
00:36:55.079 --> 00:36:57.360
So you've got these guests.

750
00:36:57.420 --> 00:37:02.280
You've got basically, um, what, 2 main guest characters and then

751
00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:06.719
you've got, And then you've got the Dominion people in this

752
00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:14.280
incredibly fake, um, simulation in a tiny corner of the studio, um

753
00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:17.460
which is where we apparently have all of our meetings all sitting

754
00:37:17.460 --> 00:37:19.079
around the same side of the table.

755
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:23.099
I know you're probably going to find me on this because I know you

756
00:37:23.099 --> 00:37:27.780
like the like astonishing production value of Kursman Trek and the

757
00:37:27.780 --> 00:37:29.940
you know, the fact that they can tell everything on a large canvas

758
00:37:29.940 --> 00:37:32.159
with amazing set pieces and blah, blah, blah.

759
00:37:32.219 --> 00:37:37.559
But really, ultimately, yeah, you do just need a really good

760
00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:40.320
script and some good actors and you can make fantastic

761
00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:40.980
television.

762
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:42.300
Duet is a bottle show.

763
00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:44.280
And duet is phenomenally good.

764
00:37:44.340 --> 00:37:46.320
This is a bottle show and this is really good.

765
00:37:46.380 --> 00:37:48.719
You know, if the writing is good enough and the acting is good

766
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:48.960
enough.

767
00:37:49.019 --> 00:37:50.880
You've got a great telly.

768
00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:56.280
Yeah, I mean, I think it is a little bit of a shame because Star

769
00:37:56.280 --> 00:37:59.940
Trek has the potential to put something really visually

770
00:37:59.940 --> 00:38:01.500
interesting on screen.

771
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:05.880
And basically we're hearing all the standing sets and there's one

772
00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:08.280
optical shot in the entire show.

773
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:11.400
Or, you know, like all one effects shot.

774
00:38:11.460 --> 00:38:16.920
And I did, I was actually surprised by that.

775
00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:18.480
And I do think this is good.

776
00:38:18.539 --> 00:38:24.179
I wasn't bored, but it is visually not that interesting.

777
00:38:25.139 --> 00:38:27.539
Again, I agree and disagree.

778
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:31.739
I don't think we need to tell this on a bigger canvas than it is.

779
00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:34.380
I think they like this extremely well.

780
00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:38.519
There's scenes where the lighting is very moody and, you know, it's

781
00:38:38.519 --> 00:38:41.400
visually dull because basically the sets are pretty dull.

782
00:38:41.460 --> 00:38:43.320
Well, no, actually, I think they're quite interesting actually

783
00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:43.920
but...

784
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:44.340
No, no.

785
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:48.659
I think they are more interesting than a Starfleet ship is, you

786
00:38:48.659 --> 00:38:50.099
know, they're more interestingly lit.

787
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:51.539
There's different shapes and all of that.

788
00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:55.619
You skip forward to Latter-day Voyager, and they were insisting in

789
00:38:55.619 --> 00:38:59.639
every single episode there was like, you know, a dynamic action

790
00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:01.320
sequence, whether it was needed or not.

791
00:39:01.380 --> 00:39:05.039
And so, you know, it's literally making it look pretty for no

792
00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:06.420
other reason to make it look pretty.

793
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:07.619
It didn't add anything to the plot.

794
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:09.300
There was no creative reason for it to be there.

795
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:10.260
Yeah.

796
00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:13.619
Whereas I was completely invested in this in the story where it

797
00:39:13.619 --> 00:39:14.820
was going in the characters.

798
00:39:15.059 --> 00:39:18.059
I personally don't need more than that.

799
00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:19.199
No.

800
00:39:19.260 --> 00:39:23.340
And what we get on either side of it are the giant sort of war

801
00:39:23.340 --> 00:39:27.719
things and space battles and stuff that this depends on.

802
00:39:27.780 --> 00:39:29.519
And so what it is.

803
00:39:29.579 --> 00:39:33.300
You've got this sort of giant political thing that is going to

804
00:39:33.300 --> 00:39:38.099
change the way the major powers in the galaxy relate to one

805
00:39:38.099 --> 00:39:42.119
another, but it's all happening, essentially it's all happening in

806
00:39:42.119 --> 00:39:49.500
this tiny room where Cisco is narrating what happened and we have

807
00:39:49.500 --> 00:39:50.280
flashbacks.

808
00:39:50.340 --> 00:39:53.880
I mean, essentially the episode takes place in his quarters. one

809
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:54.599
man play, isn't it?

810
00:39:54.659 --> 00:39:55.199
Yeah.

811
00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:56.460
It's a monologue.

812
00:39:56.519 --> 00:40:00.420
Well, I think they could have lent into that more and a, you know

813
00:40:00.420 --> 00:40:04.860
Star Trek in this era is not very experimental in the way that it

814
00:40:04.860 --> 00:40:08.820
tells stories or the way it presents reality and it would have

815
00:40:08.820 --> 00:40:10.559
been nice to see them lean into it.

816
00:40:10.619 --> 00:40:13.800
I think they go as far as they dare to.

817
00:40:13.860 --> 00:40:17.099
Um, but I do think it's a bit of a shame.

818
00:40:17.099 --> 00:40:18.179
So, here's the effect shot.

819
00:40:18.179 --> 00:40:19.500
His effect shot.

820
00:40:19.500 --> 00:40:21.300
Romulan, modern shot coming through.

821
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:21.780
Yep.

822
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:26.400
But again, we can't hear the music here, but again, the music I

823
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:28.139
thought was really quite strong here.

824
00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:29.519
Right.

825
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:37.019
Now Cisco is going to have to go and speak an incredible amount of

826
00:40:37.019 --> 00:40:38.280
bullshit convincingly.

827
00:40:38.460 --> 00:40:39.659
Yeah, yeah.

828
00:40:39.719 --> 00:40:41.039
I love it.

829
00:40:41.099 --> 00:40:45.059
So that's Andrew Robertson reacting to the fact that the pad thing

830
00:40:45.059 --> 00:40:47.400
comes down with nothing on it.

831
00:40:47.460 --> 00:40:50.639
And then Cisco looks at him, but he does a sort of big bug eyes

832
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:51.900
thing to go, wait, what?

833
00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:54.719
You know, because he's kind of forgotten that they're cloaked or

834
00:40:54.719 --> 00:40:54.960
whatever.

835
00:40:55.019 --> 00:40:57.179
There's a line here in a minute, right?

836
00:40:57.239 --> 00:41:00.360
Sorry to interrupt with you. which I use in life all the time

837
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:03.119
where Robin says to Cisco, what is it?

838
00:41:03.179 --> 00:41:06.900
My opinion of Starfleet officers is so low, you'd have to work

839
00:41:06.900 --> 00:41:09.300
extremely hard indeed to disappoint me.

840
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:12.719
Well, take out the Starfleet officer bit, but I've used that line

841
00:41:12.780 --> 00:41:14.340
so many times with my friends, you know.

842
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:19.320
I think he's great.

843
00:41:19.380 --> 00:41:21.539
And he's a that guy, isn't he?

844
00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:23.940
He's like, I think he's Canadian or something, but he's definitely

845
00:41:23.940 --> 00:41:24.780
a that guy.

846
00:41:24.840 --> 00:41:26.340
He's a super familiar face.

847
00:41:27.420 --> 00:41:32.219
Yeah, but I like he really sort of underplays it, doesn't he?

848
00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:34.019
Well, until he gets the moment.

849
00:41:34.139 --> 00:41:37.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the great moment.

850
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:40.320
You couldn't have underplayed that, but I think he's really good.

851
00:41:40.380 --> 00:41:45.000
And this line, so he's enumerating all of the things that Cisco

852
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:47.639
has done after meeting him for the 1st time.

853
00:41:47.699 --> 00:41:50.820
And then he's going to do what is a very standard, very cliche

854
00:41:50.820 --> 00:41:55.679
joke, which is I thought you'd be taller, but in this context with

855
00:41:55.679 --> 00:42:00.179
a Romulan senator doing that joke, I think I think that's actually

856
00:42:00.179 --> 00:42:03.780
pretty funny and I did guffaw watching it. in preparation for

857
00:42:03.780 --> 00:42:04.079
this.

858
00:42:04.139 --> 00:42:05.460
It was a bit unexpected.

859
00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:08.820
There's a little bit more colloquial than Star Trek normally gets

860
00:42:08.820 --> 00:42:09.420
in this era.

861
00:42:09.539 --> 00:42:13.980
I like it when he's drinking the Romulan ale and he's like, I was

862
00:42:13.980 --> 00:42:15.780
almost convincing him for a second, you know.

863
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:18.960
The real stuff forcibly opens to synapses.

864
00:42:19.019 --> 00:42:23.820
Don't, don't you think, though, that that's slightly ominous, that

865
00:42:23.820 --> 00:42:28.860
he presents, um, Cisco presents him with Romulan ale that is

866
00:42:28.860 --> 00:42:29.280
fake?

867
00:42:29.340 --> 00:42:32.039
and he's...

868
00:42:32.099 --> 00:42:33.780
It's great, isn't it?

869
00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:37.619
So we know immediately he's great at spocket spotting a fake, you

870
00:42:37.619 --> 00:42:37.800
know?

871
00:42:37.860 --> 00:42:39.179
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

872
00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:42.300
I'm desperate to get to that line. to do it when it comes.

873
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:45.239
There are so many memes of that.

874
00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:47.099
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

875
00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:47.940
It's really crap.

876
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:49.739
Oh dear.

877
00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:55.079
So, so right now, Garak, what, is in the ship planting the bomb?

878
00:42:55.139 --> 00:42:56.340
I think so.

879
00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:01.139
And one of them, there were some handsome Romulan bodyguards, or

880
00:43:01.139 --> 00:43:04.440
at least one of them was handsome, and there are 3 or 4 of them

881
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:08.400
and presumably they all get all blowed up on the ship, and Cisco

882
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:11.280
doesn't seem to have any pangs of conscience about them.

883
00:43:11.340 --> 00:43:15.239
It's like a Romulan senator, a criminal and, you know, the self

884
00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:16.860
respect of a Starfleet officer.

885
00:43:16.920 --> 00:43:18.840
But what about what about those guys?

886
00:43:18.900 --> 00:43:21.599
Actually, do you know, I want to talk to you about the dialogue

887
00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:25.199
because we've talked a lot about kind of how naturalistic Kursman

888
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:31.980
era trek dialogue is and how stylised 90s trek dialogue is.

889
00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:37.079
And you know my sort of preferences more towards 90s than the

890
00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:37.800
modern day stuff.

891
00:43:37.860 --> 00:43:41.579
And I remember your argument was like, you know, this is made

892
00:43:41.579 --> 00:43:42.119
now.

893
00:43:42.179 --> 00:43:45.960
So people should sound like, you know, contemporary.

894
00:43:46.019 --> 00:43:47.820
And I do kind of get that.

895
00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:52.619
But I think the dialogue in this episode is exceptionally good on

896
00:43:52.619 --> 00:43:52.980
the whole.

897
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:58.980
And when that stylizer and they do it run more scripted episodes

898
00:43:58.980 --> 00:44:00.119
are especially good, I think.

899
00:44:00.179 --> 00:44:03.599
When they get it right, it's really intelligent, really

900
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:07.800
sophisticated dialogue and imminently quotable, I think.

901
00:44:07.860 --> 00:44:11.219
Think of them both as tragic victims of war.

902
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:13.139
I mean, yeah.

903
00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:17.820
Well, it's, I mean, again, it's sort of, it's like sitcom

904
00:44:17.820 --> 00:44:18.420
dialogue.

905
00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:21.179
It's quotable, it's funny, it's clever.

906
00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:25.500
And I think that Star Trek always does that.

907
00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:26.760
It never becomes...

908
00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:30.659
Well, I mean, Battlestar Galactica has a ghost woman in a red

909
00:44:30.659 --> 00:44:31.199
frock.

910
00:44:31.260 --> 00:44:32.880
I mean, it's not that gun. is it?

911
00:44:32.940 --> 00:44:35.039
It's still sort of camp too.

912
00:44:35.099 --> 00:44:38.400
Um, Yeah.

913
00:44:38.460 --> 00:44:39.480
Yeah.

914
00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:42.000
What are they talking about?

915
00:44:42.059 --> 00:44:43.260
I've lost track a little bit.

916
00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:47.280
So, this is Cisco standing up and telling the lie.

917
00:44:47.340 --> 00:44:49.019
Oh yeah, here we go.

918
00:44:49.139 --> 00:44:52.800
Yeah, and then we just get, we go out of that scene so quickly

919
00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:57.659
where all that we get is reenact saying, I want proof, then we

920
00:44:57.659 --> 00:45:02.219
can't tour, like is it, a commercial break or at least exterior

921
00:45:02.219 --> 00:45:04.079
model shot of the, of the station.

922
00:45:04.139 --> 00:45:09.239
Now we're here watching this shitty DS9 deletency.

923
00:45:09.300 --> 00:45:11.760
There's so many things like this in season seven.

924
00:45:11.820 --> 00:45:14.039
Although I take out the word shitty because I just love anything

925
00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:17.159
between Wayne and Damar when they're bitching at each other.

926
00:45:17.219 --> 00:45:17.699
It's amazing.

927
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:19.920
A little bit where he goes. what is it?

928
00:45:19.980 --> 00:45:24.599
My, my predecessor Wayoon's deaf in a transporter accident and he

929
00:45:24.599 --> 00:45:25.380
looks at DeMar.

930
00:45:26.099 --> 00:45:28.019
It's great.

931
00:45:28.500 --> 00:45:32.519
I love how they get Jeffrey Coombs in.

932
00:45:32.579 --> 00:45:35.219
They kill him off, and then they decide, shit, that was a bad

933
00:45:35.219 --> 00:45:35.519
idea.

934
00:45:35.579 --> 00:45:39.599
I know they'll be clones and then they just lean into it.

935
00:45:41.699 --> 00:45:44.039
They make that part of the thing.

936
00:45:44.099 --> 00:45:45.179
I think that's genius.

937
00:45:45.300 --> 00:45:49.619
And you know, the payoff of all of that, Wayne and DeMar, when

938
00:45:49.619 --> 00:45:55.019
DeMar defects, and he takes out the cloning ship, the cloning

939
00:45:55.019 --> 00:45:58.320
percent, and he goes, I could be the last way you.

940
00:45:58.380 --> 00:45:59.760
That's why he chose that target.

941
00:45:59.820 --> 00:46:00.599
It's great.

942
00:46:00.659 --> 00:46:02.099
It's so great.

943
00:46:03.059 --> 00:46:05.159
Oh, dear.

944
00:46:05.219 --> 00:46:05.699
Oh, okay.

945
00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:09.900
And then we're going to cut to Cisco talking about soufflés rising

946
00:46:09.900 --> 00:46:15.119
and not because it's done now and and, you know, I think I think

947
00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:16.679
we've all had moments like this, haven't we?

948
00:46:16.739 --> 00:46:18.900
Where we've had to do something tough.

949
00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:20.400
Yeah, well, that's done now.

950
00:46:20.460 --> 00:46:22.920
This is either going to work or it's not going to work, always see

951
00:46:22.920 --> 00:46:23.340
the outcome.

952
00:46:23.400 --> 00:46:26.699
We haven't exactly had, you know, the deaths of 1000000s of people

953
00:46:26.699 --> 00:46:29.760
on our shoulders, you know, determined by the outcome.

954
00:46:29.820 --> 00:46:30.599
Not recently.

955
00:46:30.659 --> 00:46:31.500
Oh, really?

956
00:46:31.559 --> 00:46:32.699
Tell me about the past.

957
00:46:34.920 --> 00:46:41.760
But I think this, I think this speech is a little bit over-gged.

958
00:46:41.820 --> 00:46:43.199
Ha, souffle.

959
00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:49.559
Because, you know, he, he, he quotes his father a couple of times

960
00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:52.440
um, I don't know.

961
00:46:52.500 --> 00:46:57.539
I think this this is kind of eating up runtime.

962
00:46:57.599 --> 00:47:01.139
You know, we could have seen him do it.

963
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:02.460
Well, maybe we couldn't have.

964
00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:03.599
Maybe we need him to narrate.

965
00:47:03.659 --> 00:47:06.599
Well, he's just sort of reiterated the stakes, isn't he?

966
00:47:06.659 --> 00:47:08.579
before we get the outcome.

967
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:13.980
Yeah Have you ever done, have you ever had that moment, no, where

968
00:47:13.980 --> 00:47:16.800
you're walking towards the door of hearing a decision that's going

969
00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:18.239
to be made for your future?

970
00:47:18.300 --> 00:47:19.380
Like he does in a minute.

971
00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:20.699
Yeah.

972
00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:22.260
All our movies like that.

973
00:47:22.739 --> 00:47:26.340
And it is that thing where he's sitting there and not, he doesn't

974
00:47:26.340 --> 00:47:27.059
know what to do.

975
00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:31.019
And I think that this is a really shocking moment in the episode.

976
00:47:31.139 --> 00:47:32.760
Oh, wow.

977
00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:35.579
Well, I know.

978
00:47:35.639 --> 00:47:39.239
He's he's drinking as he's telling the story.

979
00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:42.420
He's reiterating the stakes.

980
00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:46.440
But I noticed his clothes are all coming off as well.

981
00:47:46.500 --> 00:47:48.059
Ah, yeah.

982
00:47:48.119 --> 00:47:48.420
Wow.

983
00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:49.500
I'm in favour of that.

984
00:47:49.559 --> 00:47:57.659
Does, but do you think we're meant to be surprised when free?

985
00:47:57.719 --> 00:47:58.619
Yeah, absolutely.

986
00:47:58.619 --> 00:47:59.099
I think we are.

987
00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:01.619
But it's absolutely signposted.

988
00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:05.159
Like, it's supposed to end neatly, like most Star Trek episodes do

989
00:48:05.159 --> 00:48:07.380
but with Cisco going, well, I had to do those terrible things.

990
00:48:07.739 --> 00:48:10.440
So, you know, it wasn't it wasn't all tidy.

991
00:48:10.619 --> 00:48:12.360
Oh here we go.

992
00:48:12.420 --> 00:48:12.840
Here we go.

993
00:48:12.900 --> 00:48:13.619
Here we go.

994
00:48:15.179 --> 00:48:16.380
Can we both do it, please?

995
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:21.239
It's...

996
00:48:21.239 --> 00:48:23.699
Ah, great.

997
00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:25.320
He's so good.

998
00:48:25.380 --> 00:48:27.539
How else could you have delivered it?

999
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:31.139
Particularly contrasting it with the incredible calm in control

1000
00:48:31.139 --> 00:48:32.159
thing?

1001
00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:36.780
you know, that he did, the interaction with Cisco before where he

1002
00:48:36.780 --> 00:48:38.699
was absolutely on top?

1003
00:48:38.820 --> 00:48:39.659
He had the upper hand.

1004
00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:41.579
He didn't need to exercise himself at all.

1005
00:48:41.639 --> 00:48:44.400
And then suddenly having him kind of yell out of control.

1006
00:48:44.460 --> 00:48:50.219
And, like, this is the one thing, like, he doesn't phone ahead to

1007
00:48:50.219 --> 00:48:53.880
the Romulan Senate and say, actually, I'm bringing you the fate of

1008
00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:55.199
the Federation scent.

1009
00:48:55.320 --> 00:48:56.940
Maybe not.

1010
00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.340
I mean, that is very sensitive information.

1011
00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:02.039
You remember when Picard used to get like code red.

1012
00:49:02.099 --> 00:49:04.199
You need to put in a special code before I'll talk to you.

1013
00:49:04.260 --> 00:49:06.179
Maybe, well, they could have done that.

1014
00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:08.099
Yeah, he could have thrung it.

1015
00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:09.599
A funny plot house, Nathan, honestly.

1016
00:49:09.659 --> 00:49:10.139
Good grief.

1017
00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:12.539
I think plot holes are bullshit. you know what I mean?

1018
00:49:12.599 --> 00:49:14.340
I don't like. 2 days later?

1019
00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:16.139
He goes, 2 days later, I've got the news.

1020
00:49:16.199 --> 00:49:19.139
I'm like, yeah, yeah, he didn't tell anyone in 2 days.

1021
00:49:19.199 --> 00:49:20.280
No.

1022
00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:21.840
Well, he was travelling here.

1023
00:49:21.900 --> 00:49:26.039
Was he on the way from or to Sakala or Sakara or whatever the name

1024
00:49:26.039 --> 00:49:28.440
of the planet is and blah, blah, blah.

1025
00:49:28.500 --> 00:49:29.039
No, on the way back.

1026
00:49:29.099 --> 00:49:30.000
You on the way back.

1027
00:49:30.059 --> 00:49:31.980
Remember at the beginning of the episode and they had the list of

1028
00:49:31.980 --> 00:49:34.019
the names, they'd reiterate it here now.

1029
00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:37.980
They're just like, oh, there's a lot of people dead, but there's

1030
00:49:37.980 --> 00:49:40.679
really only one person that we know.

1031
00:49:40.739 --> 00:49:43.380
Yeah, that's a good guy.

1032
00:49:43.980 --> 00:49:45.179
Yeah, where things are looking up.

1033
00:49:45.539 --> 00:49:48.000
That's how dark things have got.

1034
00:49:48.059 --> 00:49:52.440
But I think as well, I think the list of names and the victims and

1035
00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:55.260
the people that are dying in this war, that's also being

1036
00:49:55.260 --> 00:49:59.519
highlighted because if Cisco succeeds, that is what's going to

1037
00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:00.659
happen to the Romulans as well.

1038
00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:02.940
They are going to start losing a lot.

1039
00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:03.780
Yeah, not joining in that.

1040
00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:04.320
Yeah.

1041
00:50:04.380 --> 00:50:04.860
Yeah.

1042
00:50:04.860 --> 00:50:05.340
Yeah.

1043
00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:06.780
So there are stakes.

1044
00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:10.019
If he wins, there are actually some fairly dark stakes because

1045
00:50:10.019 --> 00:50:14.159
he's essentially consigning a ton of Romulans to be murdered and

1046
00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:15.960
we watch that throughout the rest of the series.

1047
00:50:16.019 --> 00:50:18.420
Rob Miller's ship's being blown up left right in the sense.

1048
00:50:18.480 --> 00:50:18.780
Yeah.

1049
00:50:18.780 --> 00:50:22.320
Yeah, but, I mean, what they do say in that opening scene where

1050
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:27.780
Gen Z is pretending to be a Romulan, is that, in fact, the

1051
00:50:27.780 --> 00:50:31.139
Dominion will, you know, we know the Dominion that is going to

1052
00:50:31.139 --> 00:50:34.559
turn on them as well, that this is just tempriso.

1053
00:50:34.619 --> 00:50:36.480
This is one of my favourite.

1054
00:50:36.599 --> 00:50:37.320
Why does he punch him?

1055
00:50:37.380 --> 00:50:38.639
Why does he punch him?

1056
00:50:38.699 --> 00:50:41.400
Because he's tough and he's hard and it turns me on.

1057
00:50:41.460 --> 00:50:41.820
That's why.

1058
00:50:43.139 --> 00:50:46.139
So I think...

1059
00:50:46.199 --> 00:50:46.619
I love it.

1060
00:50:47.159 --> 00:50:48.780
Go on.

1061
00:50:48.780 --> 00:50:52.079
So he knows immediately.

1062
00:50:52.139 --> 00:50:56.039
He knows immediately that that's what's happened.

1063
00:50:56.039 --> 00:50:57.840
And, but you hear his voice.

1064
00:50:57.900 --> 00:51:00.119
He goes, yeah, excuse me.

1065
00:51:02.219 --> 00:51:06.599
But it's also that Garak put him through that shit, you know, like

1066
00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:11.400
thinking that he's spent 2 days thinking that they've fucked it up

1067
00:51:11.400 --> 00:51:16.139
and that the Romulans are going to join the Cardette join the

1068
00:51:16.139 --> 00:51:16.619
Dominion.

1069
00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:19.559
He could have said, well, he...

1070
00:51:19.619 --> 00:51:22.920
He's added sweating his bollocks off for the last 2 days.

1071
00:51:22.980 --> 00:51:28.739
Yeah, yeah, but what would have happened?

1072
00:51:28.860 --> 00:51:32.400
Cisco would have made him stop.

1073
00:51:32.699 --> 00:51:35.219
Cisco would have warned him.

1074
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:35.880
Yeah, maybe.

1075
00:51:35.940 --> 00:51:37.139
You know, that's the point.

1076
00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:39.960
Cisco would have worn him because Cisco would never, ever have

1077
00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:40.920
signed up to this.

1078
00:51:40.980 --> 00:51:47.880
And the thing that goes wrong is, once he knows that Garak's

1079
00:51:47.880 --> 00:51:49.139
murdered these people.

1080
00:51:49.980 --> 00:51:52.739
Is it Garrett's body language there?

1081
00:51:52.860 --> 00:51:54.000
Yeah.

1082
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:55.920
It's like a spider with his hands up.

1083
00:51:55.980 --> 00:51:57.840
Like he's... creepiest.

1084
00:51:57.960 --> 00:52:00.900
It is a bit of a shitty line though, isn't it?

1085
00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:02.519
Like a dead senator in the other hand.

1086
00:52:02.579 --> 00:52:04.380
So they've got a whole senator in their hand.

1087
00:52:05.820 --> 00:52:07.860
I do love it, though.

1088
00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:11.760
Like, I do like how, like, I like it when a plot, like a jigsaw

1089
00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:13.500
comes together, quite needy.

1090
00:52:13.500 --> 00:52:16.559
And this does it all through the dialogue and you're like, okay.

1091
00:52:16.619 --> 00:52:18.719
So this is what's happening. is in this episode.

1092
00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:19.860
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1093
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:24.539
But it's smart, you know, it's it's satisfying.

1094
00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:25.260
There we go.

1095
00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:28.920
And this is the thing too.

1096
00:52:28.980 --> 00:52:31.260
Like, he...

1097
00:52:31.260 --> 00:52:36.420
How is Cisco complicit?

1098
00:52:36.539 --> 00:52:42.119
Was Cisco fooling himself that Garak would come up with a plan

1099
00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:48.059
that was so easy because Garak warned Cisco that it's going to be

1100
00:52:48.059 --> 00:52:50.039
a very messy, very bloody business.

1101
00:52:50.039 --> 00:52:55.860
And then, the business ends up being, we made this home movie and

1102
00:52:55.860 --> 00:52:58.139
we're going to give it to the Romulans.

1103
00:52:58.199 --> 00:53:00.420
And so it ends up being a bit shit.

1104
00:53:00.599 --> 00:53:03.719
San Francisco was perhaps a little naive.

1105
00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:09.780
No, I'm saying that he must have known that Garak was going to do

1106
00:53:09.780 --> 00:53:11.099
this.

1107
00:53:11.159 --> 00:53:15.719
And so he comes in and attacks Garak because he's angry at himself

1108
00:53:15.719 --> 00:53:20.579
because he knows that he involved Garak in this knowing that this

1109
00:53:20.579 --> 00:53:22.380
is the sort of thing Garak does.

1110
00:53:22.380 --> 00:53:25.139
And we know that he knows this is the sort of thing that Garak

1111
00:53:25.139 --> 00:53:28.559
does because he immediately comes to the conclusion that the ship

1112
00:53:28.559 --> 00:53:30.539
is blown up because Garak's blown it up.

1113
00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:31.800
It's not the Dominion at all.

1114
00:53:31.860 --> 00:53:34.619
And I think that's I think that's really good.

1115
00:53:34.739 --> 00:53:38.579
Do you reckon he spent 2 days just waiting then for like, okay

1116
00:53:38.579 --> 00:53:39.119
what, what?

1117
00:53:39.179 --> 00:53:40.320
No, no, no.

1118
00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:42.539
I think he spent 2 days shitting himself.

1119
00:53:42.539 --> 00:53:50.159
And then when he hears the news, he goes, yes, of course, I must

1120
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:52.320
have known that he would do this.

1121
00:53:52.380 --> 00:53:57.599
And so he comes in and punches Garak because he is angry at

1122
00:53:57.599 --> 00:53:58.019
himself.

1123
00:53:58.440 --> 00:53:59.820
Yeah.

1124
00:53:59.880 --> 00:54:03.840
And it's not like he hasn't seen what Garak is capable of.

1125
00:54:03.900 --> 00:54:05.219
No, broken link.

1126
00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:09.420
Garak's there trying to access the torpedoes to blast the hell out

1127
00:54:09.420 --> 00:54:12.239
of the the changeling planet.

1128
00:54:12.300 --> 00:54:14.639
You know, he's willing to commit genocide.

1129
00:54:14.699 --> 00:54:18.960
Like, it's not like, you know, it's a great secret that Garak's

1130
00:54:18.960 --> 00:54:20.219
capable of doing terrible things.

1131
00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:21.719
Yeah.

1132
00:54:21.780 --> 00:54:23.639
I really like this too.

1133
00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:29.639
And this final scene where he says that he can live with it and

1134
00:54:29.639 --> 00:54:31.980
absolutely doesn't convince us.

1135
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:36.360
He can't live with it because he says it twice and then he crosses

1136
00:54:36.360 --> 00:54:39.840
his leg and looks really uncomfortable and it is...

1137
00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:42.840
It's very theatrical, isn't it?

1138
00:54:42.900 --> 00:54:44.639
Like, it's very kind of...

1139
00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:46.260
I think that's why I like it, you know?

1140
00:54:46.320 --> 00:54:47.340
Me too.

1141
00:54:47.400 --> 00:54:47.940
Yeah.

1142
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:50.099
Yeah, look at that.

1143
00:54:51.300 --> 00:54:53.280
Cushion, he's got.

1144
00:54:53.340 --> 00:54:55.139
Yeah, it's pretty...

1145
00:54:55.139 --> 00:54:57.719
The only bit of colour in a cushion like that.

1146
00:54:59.340 --> 00:55:01.860
There he is deleting the episode.

1147
00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:05.460
And we go out immediately after he finishes that line.

1148
00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:11.639
I think it's so good Um, I want to, um, very quickly, uh, just

1149
00:55:11.639 --> 00:55:15.900
make a comparison because you and I watched Strange New Wells from

1150
00:55:15.900 --> 00:55:16.980
Enterprise Series one.

1151
00:55:17.039 --> 00:55:18.360
I came after this.

1152
00:55:18.420 --> 00:55:18.840
Okay?

1153
00:55:18.900 --> 00:55:21.300
That was that was from us after this.

1154
00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:27.420
And we struggled to find anything relevant or substantial to talk

1155
00:55:27.420 --> 00:55:27.659
about.

1156
00:55:27.719 --> 00:55:29.400
Now that episode we just watched.

1157
00:55:29.460 --> 00:55:31.559
No, we didn't agree, we didn't like everything.

1158
00:55:31.619 --> 00:55:33.780
We both agreed it was really, really good.

1159
00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:35.699
But there's so much to talk about.

1160
00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:39.420
There is so much substance in this show at this point with the

1161
00:55:39.420 --> 00:55:41.760
characters and with the running storyline.

1162
00:55:41.820 --> 00:55:45.719
And that's what I think DS9 brought to Star Trek.

1163
00:55:46.079 --> 00:55:51.480
Just, just, I kind of like a weight of detail and substance and

1164
00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:53.099
interesting ideas, you know?

1165
00:55:53.639 --> 00:55:58.199
So what I like about this episode, particularly, is that it's

1166
00:55:58.199 --> 00:55:59.760
invisible to everyone else.

1167
00:55:59.880 --> 00:56:05.760
The only people who know what happened are Garak and Cisco.

1168
00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:08.579
And the war changes.

1169
00:56:08.639 --> 00:56:10.380
This is now a war they can win.

1170
00:56:10.380 --> 00:56:14.280
And all of that happens in this episode that just takes place with

1171
00:56:14.280 --> 00:56:20.639
just people talking in rooms on this far off station and no one

1172
00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:21.539
ever finds out.

1173
00:56:21.599 --> 00:56:24.179
And I think that's really interesting.

1174
00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:31.619
But I think that the problem is, and it's worth paying the price, I

1175
00:56:31.619 --> 00:56:31.860
think.

1176
00:56:31.920 --> 00:56:36.059
The problem is that we never see the effect that this has on Cisco

1177
00:56:36.059 --> 00:56:39.719
as a person, the fact that he's crossed this line because this

1178
00:56:39.719 --> 00:56:44.880
episode takes place in this tiny little kind of bubble narrative

1179
00:56:44.880 --> 00:56:48.539
uh, there are never any consequences for him.

1180
00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:53.820
It's surprised you for me to say that I both agree with you and

1181
00:56:53.820 --> 00:56:54.360
disagree with you.

1182
00:56:54.420 --> 00:56:59.280
I agree with you insofar as within this episode itself and like

1183
00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:01.679
the following episodes, yeah, you don't, there are no real

1184
00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:02.400
consequences.

1185
00:57:02.460 --> 00:57:06.179
And that the sort of having a closed episode like this where he

1186
00:57:06.179 --> 00:57:07.139
deletes it at the end.

1187
00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:08.340
That's the point, I think.

1188
00:57:08.460 --> 00:57:09.900
Yeah, yeah, I agree.

1189
00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:14.699
This season, and I'm including in the Palm Moon Knight as part of

1190
00:57:14.699 --> 00:57:18.659
the jigsaw this season, has a profound effect on his character.

1191
00:57:18.719 --> 00:57:22.980
And at the end of the season, he heads back to Earth, he resigns

1192
00:57:22.980 --> 00:57:23.940
from his position.

1193
00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:25.260
He's lost Jazia.

1194
00:57:25.320 --> 00:57:28.860
He's made lots of tough choices and he's on earth scrubbing

1195
00:57:28.860 --> 00:57:32.280
potatoes in his dad's back alley and he's like, I've just had

1196
00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:33.360
enough of this now, you know?

1197
00:57:33.420 --> 00:57:37.679
This episode is one of the things that he's escaping from. like a

1198
00:57:37.679 --> 00:57:38.519
contributory factor.

1199
00:57:38.579 --> 00:57:39.179
Yeah.

1200
00:57:39.179 --> 00:57:39.960
Yeah.

1201
00:57:40.019 --> 00:57:43.320
Very, very quickly before we choose the next episode.

1202
00:57:43.380 --> 00:57:47.699
The next episode after this, yeah, is his way.

1203
00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:52.380
So that's the episode where Odo and Kira get together.

1204
00:57:52.440 --> 00:57:57.300
It's a romantic musical comedy set in Vic Fontaine's 50s lounge

1205
00:57:57.300 --> 00:57:57.780
bar.

1206
00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:00.239
Is it the 1st Vic Fontaine story?

1207
00:58:00.300 --> 00:58:01.800
The very 1st one, right?

1208
00:58:01.860 --> 00:58:06.000
And I'd say it's as accomplished as in the Pale Moonlight, but as

1209
00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:12.179
an example of how diverse DS9 could be, to put this episode and

1210
00:58:12.179 --> 00:58:13.800
that episode back to back.

1211
00:58:13.800 --> 00:58:15.960
Yeah, that's confident, isn't it?

1212
00:58:16.019 --> 00:58:18.539
That's very confident to switch genres like that.

1213
00:58:18.599 --> 00:58:18.780
Yeah.

1214
00:58:18.840 --> 00:58:19.559
Yeah.

1215
00:58:19.619 --> 00:58:22.860
There's just one more thing that I want to say, right?

1216
00:58:22.980 --> 00:58:23.820
Hit me.

1217
00:58:23.880 --> 00:58:30.360
That one of the things about the Deep Space 9 war arc is that it

1218
00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:37.199
repeatedly makes the point that all of your egalitarian peaceful

1219
00:58:37.199 --> 00:58:42.119
socialist ideas are good in theory, but you really need to abandon

1220
00:58:42.119 --> 00:58:45.239
them in order to actually survive.

1221
00:58:45.300 --> 00:58:47.280
And that's what happens here.

1222
00:58:47.340 --> 00:58:49.920
That's what's behind section 31.

1223
00:58:50.099 --> 00:58:53.280
You know, the idea that Section 31 exists outside of the

1224
00:58:53.280 --> 00:58:54.059
Federation.

1225
00:58:54.119 --> 00:58:56.699
Spreading its claws into Kurtzman Trek.

1226
00:58:56.760 --> 00:58:57.840
Well, and yeah.

1227
00:58:57.900 --> 00:59:01.079
But that's I mean, America is a bit like that.

1228
00:59:01.139 --> 00:59:06.059
America thinks of itself as a peace loving and committed to

1229
00:59:06.059 --> 00:59:09.840
justice and all sorts of things and we know what America and other

1230
00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:12.599
Western countries do to the rest of the world.

1231
00:59:12.719 --> 00:59:15.900
And so there's a sort of realism to that.

1232
00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:20.400
And if the Federation is America and often it is, I think, then

1233
00:59:20.400 --> 00:59:23.280
maybe that stuff's worth investigating.

1234
00:59:23.280 --> 00:59:29.579
But I have to say that Discovery Series one poses the same

1235
00:59:29.579 --> 00:59:31.440
question.

1236
00:59:31.500 --> 00:59:32.820
It does.

1237
00:59:32.880 --> 00:59:39.960
It says the only way that we can properly make this war worth

1238
00:59:39.960 --> 00:59:43.019
winning is by sticking to our ideals.

1239
00:59:43.079 --> 00:59:44.159
What's the point of winning?

1240
00:59:44.219 --> 00:59:46.500
What's the point of mere survival?

1241
00:59:46.679 --> 00:59:48.900
Like if we betray our ideals.

1242
00:59:48.960 --> 00:59:52.380
And the idea is that they're going to blow up the Klingon

1243
00:59:52.380 --> 00:59:56.219
homeworld and it's Giorgio's idea because she's from the mirror

1244
00:59:56.219 --> 01:00:03.059
Trump universe and they reject that idea and and it comes out

1245
01:00:03.059 --> 01:00:03.539
well.

1246
01:00:03.599 --> 01:00:08.940
And this is a made up show, so they could have done that.

1247
01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:11.639
They weren't committed to making that point.

1248
01:00:11.699 --> 01:00:18.480
And I have to say that I like the way that Discovery Series one

1249
01:00:18.480 --> 01:00:23.639
does that more than I like, the sort of grim conclusion that we

1250
01:00:23.639 --> 01:00:26.940
just have to be evil in order to survive this war.

1251
01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:32.340
I think probably the discovery, that's the more likeable approach

1252
01:00:32.340 --> 01:00:36.539
to this, and it's the like, you know, what we should aspire to.

1253
01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:41.940
Yeah, I reckon, like, if we look at history as a whole, which is

1254
01:00:41.940 --> 01:00:47.099
the more realistic and probably the more compelling because is

1255
01:00:47.099 --> 01:00:51.300
kind of throwing shades on how people pay.

1256
01:00:51.360 --> 01:00:55.320
Then there's great line in the dogs of war, just as DS9 went out

1257
01:00:55.320 --> 01:00:59.219
where Odo says to Cisco, when he realises that it was the

1258
01:00:59.219 --> 01:01:02.880
Federation that poisoned the founders and tried to commit

1259
01:01:02.880 --> 01:01:03.659
genocide.

1260
01:01:03.719 --> 01:01:05.519
And he says, it's fascinating, isn't it?

1261
01:01:05.579 --> 01:01:09.719
Like, you're willing to portray this fabulous utopia.

1262
01:01:09.780 --> 01:01:12.300
But when the dirty work needs doing, you'll look the other way

1263
01:01:12.360 --> 01:01:14.579
such a great life, I love that life.

1264
01:01:14.639 --> 01:01:15.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1265
01:01:15.900 --> 01:01:17.579
And I think that that's good.

1266
01:01:17.639 --> 01:01:22.320
I mean, that's a thing that this show exists to do is to

1267
01:01:22.320 --> 01:01:27.539
interrogate the federation and therefore perhaps America.

1268
01:01:27.599 --> 01:01:30.300
And it's a perfectly legitimate approach.

1269
01:01:30.360 --> 01:01:32.400
It a good thing that you can do with the federation.

1270
01:01:32.460 --> 01:01:33.059
It's worth doing.

1271
01:01:33.179 --> 01:01:36.179
Maybe it's a personal preference as much.

1272
01:01:36.239 --> 01:01:38.280
Well, that's absolutely necessary.

1273
01:01:38.340 --> 01:01:39.300
Although interesting.

1274
01:01:39.360 --> 01:01:43.019
I think this is the episode that was pointed at as criticising or

1275
01:01:43.019 --> 01:01:47.940
exploring the alternative to the Rodenberry ideal.

1276
01:01:48.000 --> 01:01:49.980
I don't think this is the episode that does that.

1277
01:01:50.039 --> 01:01:55.019
I think non-fan favourite valiant later in the season, which

1278
01:01:55.019 --> 01:02:01.559
literally has. idealised Roddenberry-esque cadets in charge of a

1279
01:02:01.559 --> 01:02:03.360
ship going like, we can do anything.

1280
01:02:03.420 --> 01:02:04.440
We're red squad.

1281
01:02:04.500 --> 01:02:07.559
Yeah, you know, and they're absolutely, you know, TNG episode

1282
01:02:07.559 --> 01:02:10.920
season one, characters, like, they're going to go out and civilise

1283
01:02:10.920 --> 01:02:13.559
the universe, and then they're all murdered horribly at the end

1284
01:02:13.559 --> 01:02:16.619
because they overstretched themselves, and actually they come up

1285
01:02:16.619 --> 01:02:19.079
against a force that is more powerful than them.

1286
01:02:19.199 --> 01:02:22.739
And it's horrible and it's, I'm not sure if I like what it has to

1287
01:02:22.739 --> 01:02:22.980
say.

1288
01:02:23.099 --> 01:02:28.380
But as a way of confronting that ideal, it's absolutely gripping.

1289
01:02:31.440 --> 01:02:36.539
All right, I am open at untitled Star Trek project.com slash

1290
01:02:36.539 --> 01:02:42.480
randomiser, and we are going to pick our next episode and I have

1291
01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:45.119
control of the button.

1292
01:02:45.239 --> 01:02:52.139
I am powerless and riveted to find out how you are going to play

1293
01:02:52.139 --> 01:02:52.800
this this time.

1294
01:02:52.920 --> 01:02:57.659
Okay, I'm leaving it completely open because we...

1295
01:02:57.719 --> 01:02:58.679
Yeah, yeah.

1296
01:02:58.739 --> 01:03:00.000
Well, I'm being daring.

1297
01:03:00.059 --> 01:03:02.639
I'm going to turn the films off, even though the chance of a film

1298
01:03:02.639 --> 01:03:03.719
is pretty slim.

1299
01:03:03.719 --> 01:03:06.300
Oh, man, I've given how few there are.

1300
01:03:06.360 --> 01:03:08.099
We should do a film sometime soon.

1301
01:03:08.219 --> 01:03:12.360
No, because we'll end up with bloody generations or insurrection.

1302
01:03:13.079 --> 01:03:15.480
Bloody, the motion picture.

1303
01:03:15.719 --> 01:03:18.480
Oh, no, we have to do the motion picture.

1304
01:03:18.539 --> 01:03:18.900
It's awesome.

1305
01:03:19.019 --> 01:03:20.940
The motionless picture.

1306
01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:22.559
The motionless picture.

1307
01:03:22.679 --> 01:03:27.539
I am going to leave Star Trek the animated series in because again

1308
01:03:27.539 --> 01:03:30.539
I think the chances of us rolling one are fairly slim.

1309
01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:35.880
And this does bias things in the favour of 90s strike because most

1310
01:03:35.880 --> 01:03:38.400
Star Trek at this point, isn't it?

1311
01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:38.940
He's straight.

1312
01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:40.920
So let's see how we go.

1313
01:03:40.980 --> 01:03:42.300
Pressing the button.

1314
01:03:43.079 --> 01:03:45.000
Oh Jesus.

1315
01:03:45.059 --> 01:03:46.079
Oh no, what is it?

1316
01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:46.739
Is it really terrible?

1317
01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:54.539
It's a 1st season Star Trek, the next generation episode. yes It's

1318
01:03:54.539 --> 01:03:56.340
the last outpost.

1319
01:03:56.460 --> 01:03:57.599
Oh awful.

1320
01:03:57.659 --> 01:03:59.460
Oh, almost so boring.

1321
01:03:59.519 --> 01:04:01.260
Yeah, I'm tempted too.

1322
01:04:01.320 --> 01:04:05.760
Riker shouts into a, oh my god, it's the 1st Ferengi episode.

1323
01:04:05.820 --> 01:04:10.019
I've been doing that kind of...

1324
01:04:10.079 --> 01:04:13.079
It's someone else in it is...

1325
01:04:13.079 --> 01:04:14.400
I think is...

1326
01:04:14.400 --> 01:04:15.840
No, match project's not in that one.

1327
01:04:15.900 --> 01:04:17.099
I can't remember now.

1328
01:04:17.159 --> 01:04:19.500
Oh, he's in the battle or something, isn't he?

1329
01:04:19.559 --> 01:04:20.159
So awful.

1330
01:04:20.219 --> 01:04:21.059
It so boring.

1331
01:04:21.119 --> 01:04:22.320
Okay. boring.

1332
01:04:22.440 --> 01:04:23.159
Do you want do a different one?

1333
01:04:23.219 --> 01:04:24.119
Yep.

1334
01:04:24.179 --> 01:04:24.480
All right.

1335
01:04:24.539 --> 01:04:28.619
Oh, do we want to do another Deep Space 9 so soon?

1336
01:04:28.679 --> 01:04:30.780
This is dramatis persona?

1337
01:04:30.840 --> 01:04:31.920
That's awful as well.

1338
01:04:31.980 --> 01:04:32.639
Roll again.

1339
01:04:32.699 --> 01:04:33.119
Oh, okay.

1340
01:04:33.179 --> 01:04:34.380
Is that series one?

1341
01:04:34.500 --> 01:04:35.579
That's series one.

1342
01:04:35.639 --> 01:04:36.539
I do remember.

1343
01:04:36.599 --> 01:04:39.840
It's the one where Kira's coming onto Dax all the time to try and

1344
01:04:39.840 --> 01:04:41.099
get her to go evil with her.

1345
01:04:41.159 --> 01:04:41.820
It's very weird.

1346
01:04:42.360 --> 01:04:46.800
I think it's like a retread of power play, isn't it?

1347
01:04:46.860 --> 01:04:47.760
Not as good, though.

1348
01:04:47.820 --> 01:04:51.360
That has marina service going, everyone, get down on the floor.

1349
01:04:51.420 --> 01:04:52.739
That's great.

1350
01:04:54.599 --> 01:04:56.519
Oh, dear.

1351
01:04:56.579 --> 01:04:57.719
Okay, all right.

1352
01:04:58.019 --> 01:05:03.000
Now, we have a rule, which is if it's a two-parter, we have to do

1353
01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:03.539
2 parts.

1354
01:05:03.599 --> 01:05:08.579
But if it's part of a larger arc, we don't have to do the whole

1355
01:05:08.579 --> 01:05:11.039
arc so that we don't have a 10 episode.

1356
01:05:11.159 --> 01:05:13.199
Like you're preparing, you know.

1357
01:05:13.199 --> 01:05:13.559
Come on.

1358
01:05:13.619 --> 01:05:16.860
It's season two, episode two, the circle.

1359
01:05:17.039 --> 01:05:19.440
Oh, dear, it's not again.

1360
01:05:19.500 --> 01:05:21.480
I don't think we should do DS9 again, you know.

1361
01:05:21.539 --> 01:05:22.860
Okay, I'm switching it off.

1362
01:05:22.980 --> 01:05:24.599
All right.

1363
01:05:24.659 --> 01:05:26.760
That hope is you part two.

1364
01:05:26.820 --> 01:05:27.900
How was that?

1365
01:05:28.019 --> 01:05:31.860
The season finale of Discovery season three.

1366
01:05:31.920 --> 01:05:37.559
So the 1st episode of Discovery season 3 is called That Hope Is

1367
01:05:37.559 --> 01:05:41.699
You part one, episode one. very sneaky.

1368
01:05:41.760 --> 01:05:44.699
And then episode 13 is called that Hope is You part two.

1369
01:05:44.760 --> 01:05:47.280
So we wouldn't have to do part one and part two.

1370
01:05:47.340 --> 01:05:48.360
We would just do part two.

1371
01:05:48.420 --> 01:05:50.639
I've not seen the last half.

1372
01:05:50.639 --> 01:05:51.960
Serious free of discovery.

1373
01:05:52.019 --> 01:05:54.239
So I would be quite intrigued to watch that episode.

1374
01:05:54.300 --> 01:05:55.679
Okay.

1375
01:05:55.739 --> 01:05:56.280
All right.

1376
01:05:56.340 --> 01:05:57.480
That will be interesting.

1377
01:05:57.480 --> 01:06:00.780
What's occurring in the end of series 3 of Discovery?

1378
01:06:00.840 --> 01:06:03.300
They discover the source of the burn.

1379
01:06:03.420 --> 01:06:06.539
Oh, the thing that set off all the dilithium.

1380
01:06:06.599 --> 01:06:11.699
Yeah, yeah, they'd kind of destroy the Federation and made

1381
01:06:11.699 --> 01:06:15.000
everyone kind of isolated and mistrustful of one another.

1382
01:06:15.119 --> 01:06:17.639
Is it a satisfying explanation?

1383
01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:20.880
It's a strange explanation.

1384
01:06:21.119 --> 01:06:24.300
And has that been revealed before the finale?

1385
01:06:24.960 --> 01:06:32.400
No, this isn't part two, but as usual, the end of a discovery

1386
01:06:32.400 --> 01:06:34.739
series is quite highly serialised.

1387
01:06:34.800 --> 01:06:39.179
So we will have to kind of fill people in on where we are at this

1388
01:06:39.179 --> 01:06:39.539
point.

1389
01:06:39.599 --> 01:06:42.239
But I think it's worth a try.

1390
01:06:42.300 --> 01:06:43.079
You're gonna have to fill me in.

1391
01:06:43.139 --> 01:06:44.639
I've not seen this lot Ralph.

1392
01:06:44.699 --> 01:06:46.860
I might watch all the ones I haven't seen.

1393
01:06:46.920 --> 01:06:49.860
I stopped at the Mirror Universe episodes. far from the end?

1394
01:06:49.920 --> 01:06:51.420
don't think so.

1395
01:06:51.480 --> 01:06:52.920
Okay, I watched a lot then.

1396
01:06:53.280 --> 01:06:56.340
Oh, Discovery again. and series three.

1397
01:06:56.400 --> 01:06:56.820
Again.

1398
01:06:56.880 --> 01:06:57.480
Brilliant.

1399
01:07:04.440 --> 01:07:08.639
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford

1400
01:07:08.639 --> 01:07:09.960
and Nathan Bottomley.

1401
01:07:10.019 --> 01:07:13.380
You can find us online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where

1402
01:07:13.380 --> 01:07:16.199
you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.

1403
01:07:16.260 --> 01:07:19.980
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was

1404
01:07:19.980 --> 01:07:21.599
composed by Cameron Lamb.

1405
01:07:21.659 --> 01:07:25.920
This episode was recorded on the 7th of February 2022 and released

1406
01:07:25.920 --> 01:07:27.539
on the 18th of February.

1407
01:07:27.599 --> 01:07:32.039
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Discovery that Hope is You

1408
01:07:32.039 --> 01:07:32.460
part two.