Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we're back aboard Deep Space 9 this week for series one
episode 17.
It's the Forsaken, which was 1st broadcast on the 23rd of May, 1993
which is just over 3 months after tapestry.
Oh, after tapestry.
Yeah.
Okay.
93.
God, you feel old?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. right.
This episode is 32 years old.
Oh, God.
I'm visibly crying before your eyes.
Terrible, just shocking.
So, Pillar is involved in the teleplay here and it's based on a
story by someone else.
And Pillar says he's quoted on memory alpha is saying that what
they were looking for at this point in series one is kind of day
in the life stories.
So this is not a story with a strong central idea.
It's a story with 3 fairly light subplots.
It's got an A plot, a B plot, and a C plot.
And I think that if the show was mostly like this, it would be a
bit tiresome.
But I have to say that I really enjoyed this episode.
So I watched this twice in close succession, because I enjoyed it
so much the 1st time.
I thought, okay, hang on.
Maybe I'll just enjoy Mrs. Troy so much that I need to go back and
try this.
No, I enjoyed it more the 2nd time.
Maybe because I knew what was coming.
Day in the life of D Space 9 works for me because I love being on
D Space 9 and I love being with these people.
I've said it a 1000000 times.
They do this a couple of times a year, don't they?
They do what's happening on the station today.
ABC.
So they do take this forward.
I think they get better at bringing the plots together because
you're right, none of these are related.
There is an essential theme.
If this was modern trek, there would be something running through
these, wouldn't there?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, so there's a there's one of the plots, I'm going to call
it the C plot, or maybe it's the B plot.
Lets not fight, though.
The puppy?
Yeah, the puppy one.
So something happens to the ship's computer, and that causes the
issue that traps Laxana and Odo in the lift, and it also causes
the fire that threatens Julian and the ambassadors, the federation
ambassadors that he's escorting around the station.
So they are kind of linked together causally, but not really.
Tenuously, isn't it?
Yeah.
But one thing, you know, feeds into the other plots, but
thematically they're not sort of related in any way.
And each plot kind of goes on unimpeded by the fact that, you know
the station's on fire and stuff like that in the other plot.
So, um, it's very light.
Each plot is sort of fairly thin, and I think the central plot
isn't the plot that gets the title.
I think the central plot is Odo and Black Sana trapped in a lift
together.
And for me, that was the highlight of the episode.
Oh, by a mile.
And Pillar also says he's quoted their own memory alpha is saying
they wanted to save some money at this point as well, which is why
they wanted a day in the life of Deep Space 9 because the standing
stats are always there.
So he thought, well, fine.
I'll throw 2 people in a lift.
That will be cheap.
But it leans into what I think is, and DS9 gets this better than
any of the other 90s treks, and that is when you put 2 people
together in a room.
I know it's cheap, but it can re rewards. duet wolves.
They do it time and time again with 2 characters.
The wire, you know.
And the result is, is you learn so much about the 2 characters, you
know, there's sort of comedy witty lines here between, oh, don't
Mrs. Troy, she's trying to fuck him in the lift or whatever she's
trying to do.
She goes.
I think the quote goes.
She goes from being the last person you would ever want to be
stuck in a lift with to the best person you could possibly be
stuck.
And that's in the in the space of about 10 minutes and 3 scenes.
And that's really good character writing.
It's so great, isn't it?
So we've done a couple of episodes with Magell already.
So we did manhunt, which was just...
Really shockingly bad.
And we've done another appearance of hers.
I think her last appearance on Deep Space 9, which was the Muse.
And I remember thinking that that was really great and coming away
from it, actually kind of sorry, that they didn't follow up on the
relationship between Odo and Luxana.
And I kind of feel that same way here because I think it's
extremely great.
It's so well done.
So the 1st time that she visits him in his office, she kind of
pushes him up the wall and really kind of forces herself on him
and he's terrified.
It rolls off the tongue.
She's awful.
Like, she's really awful.
And so it's it's such a surprise that she is so sympathetic and so
sensitive and so kind and so understanding and so willing to
listen to him.
And he opens up in a way like this is episode 17 and he hasn't had
that much of a chance to open up about himself and his history and
we learn a lot about him and what he's like and why he is the way
he is.
And she's such a good listener and so able to kind of understand
and sympathise with him that I actually found those scenes
incredibly moving, like really quite moving.
They really are.
The bit where she, and we will get there, she shows him her wig.
That sequence is unbelievably moving and one last quote from
Pillar.
He says those scenes in the lift will be spoken about for a long
time.
He goes, I'm not sure about the rest, but those will be.
I told a couple of people that we were doing this episode this
week.
I just said the forsaken.
And they went, oh my god, Mrs. Troy's wig.
And they just knew it straight away.
So that bit really stuck in people.
And it's just how I also found really moving the bit where they're
talking about parties and he says how much he hates parties.
And then she goes, you know what, come to one of mine.
I'm going to make sure everyone's there to look after you.
She's just so generous with it.
Yeah.
Remember, he's narrating a party where he's forced to do party
tricks for the amusement of the other guests.
And she doesn't say, I'll make sure everyone looks after you.
She says, I'll make sure they're there to entertain you.
And like, it's so warm.
It's so good.
Like, she's just tremendous.
And they've really landed on what she's good at because she's
auntie-made. she?
Yeah.
Like, she's Auntie Maime.
She's really funny.
She's really big.
She's shockingly bad and manhunt is hugely embarrassing.
We get some of that hair.
We do get a bit of D. The big auntie maime thing, which I think is
at its height in cost of living.
Like, she's really good at that.
She's really, like, I think that's actually quite a fun episode.
It's not, you know, it's pretty thin.
Oh, we do that one.
Oh, you are.
It's really fun.
She's really fun in it.
And then what they start to do is they start to give her, they do
start to give her proper acting job.
So even half of life. you remember that?
Well, so Dark Page is not yet.
It's coming after this episode.
So she'll go back to the Enterprise for Dark Page.
But before that, she did half her life with David Ogden Steers
remember that?
And Michelle Forbes. that's some proper acting from her.
And Dark Page is her, but she's grieving and she's heartbroken and
stuff.
And like she's great at that.
She's really good at that.
But what I really like here is that they don't put her through the
ringer.
She's kind of in control the whole time, and we just get to see
what a kind, thoughtful, and empathetic person she is. and it's
wonderful They've grown her up though, right?
Because they do take her on her own terms here.
She's still sexually voracious and, you know, extremely confident
in her pursuit of men.
And specifically Odo, when she says, I've never been with a
shapeshifter, you know.
I mean, we were all thinking it, right?
Let's be honest.
But you think back to Manhunt, where she was so childishly
characterised here, there's such maturity in how she's
characterised in that lift.
Yeah, they just got it.
And there should have been more of her, I think.
This Mrs. Troy.
It took a little while to get here.
And so we had to go through haven and bullshit like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
You see, like Renee's older than the rest of the cast, isn't he?
Like he's a fair bit older.
And I actually think the 2 of them, like the 2 of them are, you
know, I don't know, are they a similar age?
like they're certainly, I don't suspect so, yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Although you can't tell with Miguel because she dresses so sexy, so
young in this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
She brings her tits in one scene and then some.
She does.
And obviously Renee's slathered in a layer of sort of featureless
latex, so it's hard to tell as well.
But, you know, the 2 of them older and coming to a romance late in
life, I think is actually really nice.
And like I said, I was kind of a bit heartbroken by the Muse
because it's clear that Odo is in love with her at the end of that
episode.
And it's clear at the end of this episode that he's heading that
way.
Do you know, Cisco says to him at some point early on, you know
why not just let yourself be caught?
Why don't you try it?
Why don't you let yourself be caught?
And he rules it out.
I can't help you, Odo.
He goes.
Yeah.
But he is caught.
I think at the end of the episode, Renee's performance makes it
quite clear that he has been core at the end.
And so this is, you know, one of Deep Space Nine's dead ends, one
of its roads not taken.
And I'm a bit sad about that because I think it would have been
very nice.
And I love Kira and Odo together.
I think they're great, but I think this would have been special as
well.
I suspect it's for 2 reasons.
One, it's because the Muse did not go down well with either the
audience or the creative team.
So I think maybe they thought more, maybe we're spent here with
Mrs. Troy.
Two, Major L Barrett was quite vocal that she did not like the
direction that the show went in when it started getting war heavy
because that's not what Gene would have wanted.
So maybe they sort of parted terms amicably, but for the best.
Yeah.
But for whatever reason, what they did do.
And like we're ignoring fascinations because I haven't seen it for
a while and I gather it's embarrassing.
I mean, it's embarrassing.
It was fabulous as well, though.
They definitely follow it up on lower decks in an episode that I
think is pretty great.
The exchange, you're not at all what I expected.
And then saying, no one's ever paid me a greater compliment.
Yes, isn't that nice?
That almost brought me to tears.
And you know me.
I'm a tough nut to crack watching TV, but I was sort of sobbing up
a bit at that point.
Yeah.
Yeah, because she gets seen as well in a way that I think is
beautiful.
And, like, you know, we talk about, and it'll come, the scene
where she takes her wig off and it's just her normal hair and it's
just Migel's hair.
You know, like it's just Magell there and she's beautiful.
You know, she's beautiful.
She's beautiful when she puts the wig on and the sexy dress and
when she's being vampi and over the top.
She's beautiful.
But when she's just being quiet and honest and understanding and
kind, she's equally beautiful in a different way.
She says, I look ordinary.
I've never cared to be ordinary.
Gosh, it's so it's such good writing.
You can tell pillar is all over this script.
Oh, absolutely he is.
He just has a really great way of just getting into the heads of
these people, I think.
Yeah.
I think he does a good job with Julian too.
I mean, his spot's quite thin and so maybe we'll talk about it
while the episode's going. ambassadors of unhappy.
But he's trying to give Julian comedy lines to see if that's
something that he's capable of doing.
And Sid doesn't quite land it.
But he does a pretty good job and I think he's quite funny in
places in this episode as well.
It's so strange, isn't it?
I was thinking about the day in the life sort of episodes and I
think it's something that T and G rocked as well.
Like stuff like day to day, that has like 3 plots in it and like
but just what's happening around the ship, you know, Beverly
teaching it to dance and loads of fun stuff.
I don't know if Voyager could put off an episode like this.
No, because the characters aren't as likeable, perhaps.
Or it's all mixed, aren't they?
If you are focussing on the right characters, maybe they could do
it, but I can't even think of a time where they've tried to do a
day in the life on Voyager.
And I may say something about that cast.
Or about the that show's approach as well, that it wants to do
high concept things.
And I think that what they end up landing on with these day in the
life episodes in Deep Space 9 is giving at least one of the plots
a kind of clearer, more interesting focus, something that's a bit
more science fiction or a bit more about one of the cultures or
something like that.
Or very funny.
Such as the no J consortium, stealth sealing, stembolts.
You know, the great river.
We've done them all so far.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's right. that's right Well, I mean, I'm ready to be
tickled, you?
I definitely am. will count us in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
Establishing shop Deep Space nine.
That's the most officially interesting thing you're going to see
all episode.
Oh, no, except for a little bit of CGI towards the end.
And so this is starting with the plot, the Julian plot, where
what's happened is that there are some ambassadors on board the
station and Cisco has just told Julian he has to look after them.
And they're all difficult in sort of different ways.
This woman is called Taxco or something.
I think she's called Tesco, isn't it?
doesn't she say Tesco at the end?
I thought it was product placement.
It's not text Tesco.
She doesn't do another Star Trek, even though she really looks
like someone who's played a Star Trek alien quite a lot.
The Bolian, of course, you'll recognise from Star Trek 1st contact
because he's Admiral Hayes. and he's in he's in 2 more Voyager
episodes as Admiral Hayes as well.
Um, the Vulcan...
The Vulcan is a Croller from the episode 1st contact, the
conservative guy from 1st contact, the episode.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he's also in false prophets and he's a Vulcan doctor in
stigma.
So we've actually seen him already on USTP.
I know there, this is pure sitcom, right?
But all 3 of these ambassadors.
I've met somebody with all of their eccentricities.
The woman that's never happy, the man that's always trying to give
advice or knows a better way of doing things.
And then the one that always asks questions, you know, even though
you want to go home early.
I recognise all these people.
I think the woman's my favourite though.
She's really funny.
Her thing about the disgusting Ferengi sex program.
I have to sleep one more night with those Cardassian gargoyles
facing me from the bed.
Oh, here's Mrs. Troy.
And so it turns out that Mrs. Troy is one of the ambassadors
although she'll be hived off into her own plot.
I like the fact that she accessorises to the wig.
I never wear this hair without it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So they're giving Julian these sort of English sitcom lines where
he's kind of like baffled and slightly harried and pompous posh
English guy.
And I think he's doing quite much more likely. in series one like
that than he is when he's being arrogant and yeah, everyone's sort
of rubbling their eyes at him all the time.
Oh I love this.
I know where it hurts the most, you little troll.
She's advocating strip searching everyone in the bar, which I
would have loved to have seen attempted.
Oh yes, please.
I mean, will you take a look at her?
She looks so gorgeous doesn't she?
She's fabulous, isn't she?
And so in comes Odo and meets her for the 1st time.
Um, and like, he obviously just solves the problem immediately
because he's Odo, and of course, he does.
I think she's a bit too impressed given he just grabs older the
1st person and goes, yeah, it's you. empty out your pockets.
No, so he does, he does know something.
Like he, so he, she's trying to detect guilt, but she can't in
great betasoid tradition.
Beta souls cannot read Ferengi's.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so he uses that as a clue to work out who it is who's actually
stolen it.
Odo, of course, manages to throw in an insult to Quark while
sticking up for him.
But he takes it as a compliment.
Thank you very much.
I'm sorry, Admiral Satay, but your costumes are nothing to Mrs
Troy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Look at all the accessories on. flowers and all sorts bouncing off
it.
Do we see these aliens ever again?
No.
Doctrarians or whatever they're called.
Presumably, presumably they have the head in a cupboard somewhere
and they bring it out at some other point.
So, Nathan, have a look.
Can you see the poles wobbling behind them?
They haven't fixed that one down from me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think that was supposed to be robust metal, you know, those
pulse.
Yeah, maybe.
This is what I say to you on every podcast.
How perfectly brilliant are you?
So she's intrigued and this is, you know, my thing where we end on
the most important line of the episode.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And so I want to know everything there is to know about your
security chief.
Yeah, and so what it looks like is it's going to be a sort of sort
of sex comedy thing where she's inappropriate and she's chasing
after...
You could almost be rolling your eyes at this point going, Yeah
we've done this with Picard.
We know this goes.
Nulling us into our full sense of security.
Hence why Odo says you're not at all what I expected because the
plot was heading towards doing manhunt again, I think.
Oh, and I just love hanging out in Quarks, you know.
Any episode that opens up in the bar is wonderful for me.
I mean, I think it's, it's, I talked to you before, didn't I, about
how she was denied that role on the original series, originally
and then took the consolation prize?
I just think now there's what?
15, maybe Mrs. Troy episodes across TNG and DS9.
There's quite a lot.
Like I feel...
They gave back to her.
I think Gene, you know, said you were hard done by and, you know
you deserve a big role.
I think she's somebody.
I do think she was divisive to start off with only because she was
so over the top in those early TNG episodes.
Fuck me.
Like Q, she brings a bit of life to that ship.
Every time she turns up.
Yeah.
It's a little bit like you, isn't it?
Like, you is stiff and awkward as we observed last time, you know
in the 1st couple of episodes that he's in, in encounter at
Farpoint and in Hyde and Q. you know it's a strange performance.
And it takes them a while to write to Majel strengths as well.
This does also prove as well you don't need Deanna with Mrs. Troy
for her to work in an episode because it's the 1st time it's
happened.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Although I do love their I love their chemistry, that's whoever.
It's pretty great, isn't it?
I just love that, you know, ship's councillor's log.
My mother is on board.
You can figure it out, roll it on.
It's just saying it.
Right.
I thought I was in for a bit of trouble with this C plot with the
puppy because there's so much techno babble, isn't there?
Yeah, yeah.
I don't think this is very good and it's resolved by.
It's a plot where everything is just them talking in ops, you
know.
The, the, like trapping Odo in the lift and then the explosion in
the habitat ring, those are both, um, you know, those are both
part of this plot, but they're primarily, you know, things to
motivate the other plot.
But otherwise we're just standing around talking.
This Bajoran woman should have been Nila from in, now they do
bring in Nila early.
So do you remember, she's the one that tries to assassinate Brile
and they introduce her in duet and then she's established for in
the hands of a prophet.
So they do a sort of there's 2 episodes.
But there's a Bajoran here.
Man, they just weren't thinking ahead enough.
Like they should have done...
So she was proper.
I mean, she's good.
This is her only episode, isn't it?
So she's Anara and she's here to give O'Brien someone to talk to.
They just look so like, I mean, the uniform and the hair.
Come on, let them look pressy.
I mean, she's probably quite a pretty woman.
Look at her.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's pretty plain, isn't it?
It's very, like, she kind of fades into the Cardassian gray walls
a bit in that...
I've been looking at the historical records of the Starship
Discovery and everyone's so sexy on that.
What happened?
Why do we all look so terrible?
Yeah, that's right. 100 years ago.
Now, this is something we've done with O'Brien a bit where he's
very particular about his work and if it isn't working to peak
efficiency.
He has a bit of meltdown.
I do like Cisco coming in and going, oh, sounds fine, shit. you
know, it's working.
Who cares, you know?
Except that he walks that back because he realises that if it
matters to O'Brien, then it matters.
And so he's initially dismissive, but then he decides to actually
say look, you need to do what you need to do.
And I thought that that was pretty good.
I think, like if this plot has any value at all, It's mostly
because it gives us the chance to see Colin do some acting.
What's the scope does here?
He sees the ambassadors.
He turns around with a massive sigh and then passes a grin on his
face and turns around and says, oh, hello, everyone.
The amount of times I do that at work when I was like, oh, God.
Why?
How can I?
That was pretty great, wasn't it?
That was absolutely performative stuff from Avery.
It's just like no one is going to be in any doubt about what I'm
feeling here.
It was pretty good.
But I totally believe, you know, when he says, Curzon used to give
me these dreadful assignments, you know, and I used to do them.
Now I'm giving them to you because I'm in charge.
Well, let me tell you, as a manager, I used to sometimes make
colleagues do things that I used to have to do all the time.
But, but when he justifies himself, he says, you know, you could
make connections here, it might be good one day to have a
federation ambassador on your side.
And of course, the outcome of this plot is that he ends up with 3
federation ambassadors who are impressed by him and grateful to
him.
And so it does work out the way that Cisco says...
That's where he's going.
Right. a full conclusion.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There is one surprise in one of the plots, but it ain't that one.
No, yeah.
That, I think there is a surprise in the way that that plot's
told.
Like it makes a choice, which I think is actually pretty good.
It's probably a money saving.
Is that Romulan quite as gray as he is?
He doesn't look well, does he?
He's a Vulcan.
He doesn't care.
Well, he does he does look quite ill.
He does.
Oh, look at Kira.
Kira's season one hair. my god.
It's American lady hair, but she definitely has.
Fluffy, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, what maybe die as well was Bolian going, oh, is that it about
the world?
I thought it was going to be more impressive than Matt.
More impressive special effect than that?
Julian should have gone, walk, I watch Babylon 5 then.
There's really shit.
That's right We paid a lot of money for that, and we will see it
500 times during the run of this show.
Why does Cisco arranged for the meeting at 4 o'clock in the
morning?
I don't know.
I was thinking that too.
I think he's thinking, nah, they won't get out for that.
They won't come.
Yeah they'll cancel.
Straight out the door going.
No, I'm not setting the alarm for half free.
Jesus Christ.
That's right.
Oh my god, here we go.
Odo's doing his work, tracking intergalactic malefactors.
In comes Mrs. Troy.
It's the Australian series, isn't it?
This costume.
Oh my word.
I mean, so do you know what it reminded me of?
It reminds me of one of Deanna's costumes in Man of the People.
It is, isn't it?
Is it the same one?
I don't know, but it's that sort of thing where it's mostly kind
of, you know, like mesh with things strategically covering her
breasts.
I might do a comparison afterwards, you know.
I would make that the same costume.
Oh, she looks smoking hot in it.
That's all I'm going to say.
She looks great.
And the red hair.
And, you know, just the idea too that we established, because she
doesn't wear coloured wigs, like when she turns up next time in
Dark Page, and obviously that would be ridiculous because that's a
more dramatic role.
But it's not established that she's wearing a wig in the show
except in that 1st scene where she says when I wear this hair.
And so they're establishing the wig because it's important at the
highlight, you know, at the climax of the episode.
These lines, Nathan.
Oh my god.
Oh, no.
It has a lyrical quality to it.
And then she leans into him.
It rolls off the tongue.
I hear you're a shapeshifter, yes.
I've never been with a shapeshifter.
And it goes, bin with?
What do you mean?
What you mean?
It is funny, isn't it?
It's genuine.
Like, in a way that, you know, when Picard was resisting her.
That just wasn't funny at all.
No.
No, and I think why is it?
Is it because Odo's a little bit more...
He's more innocent and more serious and he's a sitcom character in
a sense as well.
You know, Picard is, is just, you know, he's sick of her or
annoyed by her or whereas Odo's feeling properly threatened.
I like her reaction to, he flees and she just smiles.
Yeah, she's she's on the hunt. right?
right?
I've got your scent now, mate.
That's right.
And that's where we think this is going, obviously.
Look at that high angle shot of Ops.
It's just so much more interesting to look at than the Enterprise
Bridge, I think.
It is, I think.
I just wish it wasn't quite as gray as it was, you know.
They do seem to think gray is a very pretty colour, in 90s true.
I don't know what some reason. what the fucking archer's doing
there too.
I think that's kind of terrible.
I suppose it's something, but does look a bit terrible.
I just like the levels because it means they can shoot up and down
and they can just do more injuries.
I kind of like the sense that you don't really get a proper sense
of the layout of ops.
Like, presumably you do if you watch it all the time, but, you
know, there's lots of different interesting shots.
You know, there's things happening in the background and stuff.
It's not like, you know, those terrible high shots of the
enterprise bridge, which looks so bad.
I'm starting to love, you know, these scenes where Odo comes to
visit Cisco.
Do you remember his way when they were singing together?
And now in this one.
Have you ever thought about letting Mrs. Troy catch you?
Odo?
Yeah, well, like I said, and I think I only realised it when I was
saying it just now, she does catch him.
I think that scene is really good.
And it's a good bit of advice from him too. let yourself go.
He goes, well, she's extremely grateful.
What's wrong with that?
The manner of which she shows her gratitude expresses her
gratitude.
Oh, fuck this, like a Winoni trace hound.
All right.
That's a very unflattering simile.
When Cisco smiles and talks about romance.
Do you remember when he greeted Cassidy at the airlock with the
flowers in the baseball episode?
Man, he's so when he's in love and talking about love. wonderful.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, the makeup's struggling against Renee doing all these facial
expressions, isn't it?
I really like the fact as well that he's not, obviously, not
conventionally handsome Odo, and that doesn't bother Mrs. Troy one
bit.
No, I mean, she seems to like him because he's very competent and
very, well, she says something about opposites attracting as well
you know, like, remember Timmerson?
Remember David Ogden Steers's character in Half a Life, who's a
sort of very bashful, very shy scientist.
Michael Ansara in the Muse.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Who else has she gone after?
Well, Damon Bach.
Jesus Christ.
She ain't fussy.
But my point there is like she doesn't always, you're thinking
TNG.
Picard because he's the man at the top, right?
Well, then that would be Cisco as you'd go for here, but yeah
yeah.
Something about Odo interests her.
Yes, yeah.
And I think that's genuinely true as well because like she gets
him to open up in a way that he doesn't open up to anyone.
Like, I don't, you know, like, I can't remember how much we know
about Odo by this point, but I'm guessing the stuff.
Yeah, hardly anything, right?
I mean, there's one point where I feel as if they're pointing
forward to the search where it goes, how many of your people are
there?
Oh, I'm the only one so far.
He goes at one more game?
They're hanging on to that plot, Fred, for an important moment.
So we've had, is it Vortex, the one where we find out?
Yeah, that's no, that's mid-season.
Yeah, that is...
And then there's a man alone.
Like that's another Odo one that's like episode 2 or 3 or
something.
Dismal episode.
That's where all the Bajorans turn on him because he used to work
for the Cardassians. for the Cardassian.
But it's really hackney.
Whereas Vortex is actually quite touching.
He helps a criminal escape in his daughter at the end.
Yeah, it's really enough.
He holds the little pendant, which is a bit like a shapeshifter
and he goes, sorry.
Just watch the pieces where he comes out of the lift looking both
ways and then confidently strides off and she spots him
immediately and he tries to run back in.
I've always wanted to see an upper pylon.
She goes, I love that line.
I love that line so much.
Nathan, I might use that on the old bloke, you know.
I have a pile on 3 and she like knocks on the door and then so
funny.
Oh, look at this special effect show.
The special effect.
Now, it strikes me that that's pretty fucking dangerous, right?
I've been caught in the water if you lean on the wall.
That's right.
Don't touch that wall.
Now remember, Nathan.
The station was in a state of disrepair.
Maybe the Kardashians destroyed the doors, you know, before they
left.
But I mean, those turbo lifts are kind of, you know, they're like
a little platform with a railing rather than an enclosed capsule.
So we never see it from this point of view, but it does seem like
that is kind of dangerous.
I can even remember watching for the 1st time where they get stuck
in the neck thinking, where is this going?
What is happening in this episode?
And then when it all just unflowers, it's so beautiful.
Yeah it's really good.
Heroes in full on administrator mode in this episode.
She's showing no character whatsoever, just being very good at her
job.
Oh, yeah, she's doing her job.
Dax gets the old line, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, again, you know, we'll just beam you out. it'll be fine.
They'll turn up here on the transporter pad that's on top of the
turbo lifting ops. you know nothing happens.
She goes to Odo alone at last.
Suddenly there's this dramatic close-up on Renee's face looking
really shocked.
Do you like a bit as well, where Kira goes, now don't try
shapeshift out of there.
There's electric bolts all around it, all right?
And then Michelle goes, yeah, besides, it'd be rude.
Kira goes, what was that?
Odo is forced to say it.
It'll be ruse, all right?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I actually quite like that, though.
I think that, you know, it's him kind of actually realising that
you know, he's, even though this is an unwanted social situation
it is a social situation, he just has to be knives.
Nice, you know, like he can't be grumpy.
I mean, it's so controlled.
I don't think we've established that 16 hours.
He has to hold his shape for until this episode.
I think for the purposes of this episode.
But going forward, it's one of those things where they're going
right, well, we've made that decision now.
That's that's Odo now.
Oh, I thought that that was known.
Like, I thought that, you know, that's part of his character bio.
I could be wrong.
I wonder if it's in my...
Oh, there is...
Yeah.
I'll have a look.
I've got to do some research.
I should have done it before really.
Do you know what struck me as the use of the word pale to describe
his bucket?
Like they call it, call it a pail, which is what Americans call a
bucket, and I'd forgotten that that was the word.
I like, um, in a minute, Rico, you know, every 16 hours, I turn
into a liquid and she just goes, I can swim.
I love that line.
That's...
I know what she wants to do with him, essentially.
I want to know.
I just imagine she's got quite a big imagination.
I'll just say.
But she's really good in this too, isn't she?
Like, we get to rule out that there's danger and she's not going
to be a panicky idiot.
Like, we'll just rule that out.
This is not going to be about we're trapped in a lift and we're
going to suffocate or anything like that.
It is the only problem is the kind of social situation.
They're comic timing is perfect as well because in this bit, they
do a very quick back and forth quietly, quietly.
Of course.
You know, and it's just perfectly paced.
She's like instantly doing bored acting within like about 3
seconds.
You know, I've always been attracted to quiet, man.
I haven't, actually.
They're usually all with our mouse.
But he just turns to her and shuts her up.
Doesn't she go, oh, sorry.
I can't do it.
No, it would be me to you.
I can't be quiet.
I'm sorry.
Sorry.
I've got to talk.
And then she starts talking about that miserable menache atois
episode, hasn't she?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
It's and I wonder why she does that. too.
I don't know.
We're still trying to pull in the TNG crowds, I think.
Yeah, maybe that's it.
Maybe that's it.
But what's the character reason for her retelling that episode
there?
She can't be quiet, but she doesn't really want to reveal anything
very much about herself.
So it's it's just small talk.
Um, but this where he sits down next to her and starts talking to
her.
Look it's so nice, isn't it?
I like, I just love the fact that, you know, we've always think of
a sort of rampant older lady, yeah.
But actually making connections with people is as important to
her.
And that's what this episode proves.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I think, you know, like it leans into the idea that she's an
empath.
You know, she's an empath and what she is here is not just
empathic, but empathetic, she's kind and she wants to know what
it's like and she imagines how he feels and stuff.
When I was younger, you know, I think I used to be this person
going on about all the people I'd had it off with.
And I can still see the faces of people like Odo rolling their
eyes going, 0 my God.
There's me going, oh, at 1st it was just a matter of this
uncontrollable lust for me.
That was perfectly real.
She just said it was all a matter of expediency when I made love
to him.
Yeah, yeah, she admits to having sex with him in that episode.
Shameless woman.
And then Odo goes, I was wondering how many volts were going
through that circuit.
Because I was going throw myself at it.
Oh, this is a great scene as well where Bashir's like, please help
me, sir.
I can't handle these ambassadors anymore.
What is that bizarre piece of art there on that?
I know.
Well, we haven't got the clock yet. comes next episode.
Oh, yes.
The whole reason, the episode exists. ambassadors of unhappy.
Yeah, look, Cisco is really amused by it all.
All of us have had these assignments, doctor.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It would have been quite amusing if he'd punch one of them, I
think, you know.
Yeah, but he does tell him not to do that, doesn't he?
So, so CSco punched one of them.
Yeah.
Oh, what was he?
He was been sleazy with an ensign, wasn't he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, it seems to be stronger than that over his attempt to coax a
young ensign to his quarters against her will.
Yeah, but don't hit one of them, doctor.
I love that line too.
I'm not nearly as understanding as Curzon was.
Could you imagine how hot it would be to have Avery Brooks's
voice?
Oh, no, it's beautiful.
Oh no, here we go.
Back to the techno babble.
I do like this, though.
He goes, you know, listen to the computer's attitude.
It doesn't sound right, does it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So we didn't sort of get that, but initially the computer's a
little bit talk, you know, has opinions and refuses to do things
and talks back.
And in that earlier scene, he tries to shut something down
manually after the computer refuses to do it.
And then the computer refuses to allow him to even do it
manually.
Well, he objects, doesn't he?
Because the Cardassian systems allows a 20% error, right, doesn't
it?
And he goes, so 20%.
That's unacceptable.
That's too much.
I think the Federation, they're a bit wimpy though.
Do you not remember that episode of TNG where the person goes, you
have a 2nd backup system?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But I have to say none of this stuff about the computer, none of
the, none of it interests me at all.
I'm just like, but there is absolutely a Star Trek audience for
this stuff.
So fair.
I mean, I'm interested in computers and I'm interested in
technobabble and I thought this was all really quite boring.
But, um, and it sort of seemed like a sort of a less fun dry run
of what happens on discovery with Zora.
Remember the episode that we did where Zora attained sentience and
they have to find some way of dealing with her now that she's a
member of the crew with, you know, opinions and stuff.
It's a less fun version of civil defence when the computer turns
on them and tries to shoot the long episode.
So good.
Maybe that's the puppy getting his revenge.
You kept me locked up too long, O'Brien.
No, it's definitely that's definitely in gull.
You can, isn't it?
Oh, and you know, did you see what they were doing in this
episode?
The 90s trek metaphors.
It's like dancing a waltz with this one.
But normally, you know, it's like doing the tarantella or
something.
Oh, for God's sake.
Yeah, you make it sound like a child.
It's more like a puppy, blah, blah, blah.
Can we go back to the lift, please?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, even the probe isn't that interesting to look at, is it?
No, not at all.
That's got a reasonable shot.
Well, the station shot of the station from what we've seen.
Oh boy.
Yeah, so everyone get around the table in ops to talk about this
boring plot now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, Nathan, it all comes down to how we define a life form
really.
Yeah, let's talk about that for a while.
Biological life mechanical life, you know.
I mean, this is the most Star Treky of all the plots.
Well, yeah, except remember that I think that normally on TNG at
least, the, the, the technobabble is just there to give the
impression that they're competent people doing a technological
thing that the audience can't understand.
But here they're constructing this plot out of technobabble.
And it's a thing that we'll later say on Voyager done vastly worse
than this.
They will ditch completely, though.
Come like season 4 where they realise it is all about the
characters.
There are so, like, the setup album doesn't vanish.
It's still Star Trek.
It's reduced to an absolute.
I mean, I think of stuff we watch in series 7, change the face of
evil.
There's no technobabble in it at all, you know?
No.
But I mean, here this is a space problem that's completely just in
dialogue.
You know, you've got some, the shot of the probe or whatever, but
everything is just described in a series of messenger speeches.
And, you know, think about when the computer goes crazy in TNG or
even in that Voyager episode.
Remember the Voyager episode where the computer goes crazy and
Janeway's coffee is replicated before the cup is replicated?
That stuff.
And, you know, like, you know, the computer starts playing loud
music on the bridge in TNG or whatever, like fun things when the
computer goes wrong.
This is all very boring things when the computer goes wrong.
How does Karen know he sleeps in a bucket?
That's not something I would tell everybody.
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know.
I mean, you know, we all sleep in something.
You'd have to say to people, if Joe doesn't get back to his hovel
in time, but...
It'll be horribly wrong.
But I mean, he needs she needs to know in order to kind of create
this tension so that we know.
So, you know, she needs to, you know, she needs us to know.
And so because Odo's not going to tell Waxana, that's going to be
a big moment, we need to know that there's a, you know, like a
clock running out. 3 scenes with the computer plot on the trot is
too much.
There should only be.
Well, they should be going, A, B, C, rather than just having 3
scenes of the computer plot, right in the heart of the episode, the
most boring plot of all.
Thank God, the ambassadors of unhappy are back.
I mean, there was an ad break in the middle of that sequence, to
be fair.
Oh, there was?
Oh, I didn't get the end sting music. that's right.
How would I possibly know?
How do we know to get up and get a wee in the middle of the
episode?
Oh, look, we're going back to the upper pylons.
Hurrah.
Yes, I love a good upper pylon.
But enough about me.
So she's been talking all through the ad break and through those
previous scenes.
Who goes, I'm a private man.
She goes, yeah, it's funny. always been attracted to private men
of course Oh, now she starts asking him about his head.
This is where this is just gorgeous.
Yeah, yeah.
And he opens up about how he was exploited.
Yes.
And she sees a way in then, doesn't she?
She sees a way interconnect with him.
But I don't think it's even that.
I think that she starts to feel feel for him.
Like she really starts to kind of, she hears the details of what
being brought up in a laboratory might be like, and she imagines
it, and she feels empathy for him.
You know, like, I don't think she's being calculated. can't
believe that he uses the word assigned.
Yeah, you know, rather than like adopted.
She goes, is that how you grew up in a laboratory?
And she, like, she's now, she's not on.
She's not being big, she's not trying to be funny.
She's being genuine and she's wonderful when she drops that.
Like the Auntie Maim thing is really fun and really funny.
She's awesome, but when she's really being understanding, and he's
caught off guard by it, you know, like he doesn't clam up, he
keeps going to...
Because you just expect her to be.
So when she does bring it down like this. is more touching as a
result.
Yeah, that's why that scene in Odo's office is so over the top why
she's being why she's being so forceful.
She grabs his arm in a minute as well, which, yeah, look, when she
sees that he's in pain.
She just holds his arm gently.
She's beautiful, isn't she?
Just that concern.
Now she's properly empathising.
I can't imagine what it would have been like to grow up like
that.
And and, you know, we don't have to talk about this.
She was she was refusing to allow there to be no conversation, but
now she's saying, you don't have to talk about it.
And he says, yes, no, I want to.
And the way he plays these lines as well.
You know, I hate parties.
Because they were just so awful for him.
Oh, I love all this stuff.
Yeah, yeah, it's terrific, isn't it?
It's really good.
You know when I say like characters am I in?
We're Star Trek, a lot of the Take the Bad Way. really the strange
new wealth.
This is the stuff I love.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, but, you know, like it's 2 beautiful performances from 2
very, very experienced actors as well, which I think is really
enjoyable.
And then you, I, you know, I would almost believe this would be
the end of this plot like this is touching enough, but then it
comes to the bit where he's got his back turned.
He won't look at her.
It's a private matter.
Oh my god, it just gets better and better these days.
Yeah, yeah, it's really good.
It is really good.
Oh, oh, oh.
This is what I'm like an hour before bed.
Boy, they struck gold with Renee, didn't they?
They did, I mean.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean he's brilliant, isn't he?
I mean, he's one of the best things about the show and even acting
under that huge lump of latex that they've put on his side.
Makes you feel for him.
Yeah.
Time and time again.
Berman says on the memory alpha page that Renee's like one of his
favourite actors across all of Trek.
I think it's just because he's so fucking reliable, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
No, he's good.
I mean, he's just been doing it for a long time.
All right.
So we're opening the drawer so we can take some isolinear rods out
of the computer.
Oh, boring.
This is the sort of bullshit we did this.
Why we know this?
Well, because they're all trying to make the computer do lots of
things and they're taking sort of the power circuits out at the
same time, so it has a bit of a breakdown. or something.
So these are the equivalent of the isolinear chips on Star Trek on
the Enterprise.
They have isolinear rods in these little drawers.
Remember isolinear chips in the slots that they have in in Omni
Enterprise on a Federation ship?
They just wouldn't waste time doing anything this boring in the
last 3 seasons of Dig Space 9.
You know, this is definitely a let's pad out this episode.
Yeah.
So they're they're kind of pulling the memory out of the computer
and launching Microsoft Office and stuff at the same time, you
know, opening lots of tabs.
It's just like a thut of sparks, isn't it?
or anything?
No, it's a computer.
I mean, really, I don't think you want it firing rocks at you just
because you they normally do, don't they?
All the consoles?
tabs in chrome.
I thought that was quite nicely done right.
You got the explosion heading towards the camera and then they
focus on the actors and just throw in a couple of flames, yeah?
And then what happens is we don't see them after this until
they're rescued.
And so that plot actually goes away.
We see, so we see this.
But basically, basically after it's established that he can't get
out.
We don't see them again. quickly get get Tesco in the Jeffrey
Stube or whatever her name is.
Oh, that, that flaming corridor.
She looks quite aggressive, doesn't it?
They like doing stuff with flames towards the end.
Do you not remember if wishes were horses, where that flaming man
comes running towards Kira?
Do you remember that?
Oh, and there's a little special effects shot here as well, where
Kira shoots the door and you see the glass.
I clearly glass, but I think it's supposed to be geranium.
Oh, well, we're going to need a bipolar torch to get through it.
It's clearly glass.
OMG.
Oh, Brian's bored of his own plot, look.
He goes, yeah, that's right.
That's right.
I could potentially exciting plot with fire.
I could have been in the lift with Mrs. Troy.
Oh, no, we didn't want to see that.
Although, to be fair, Column is very reliable actor as well.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Oh, here we go.
We doing the metaphoric again.
I had a puppy once, you know.
He shut him up.
He goes crazy.
I thought you'd empathise with some of this stuff.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, particularly since I'm having to get up every few seconds
and let the dog in and out of this room where we're recording.
Don't worry, I've got you back, all right?
I can monologue bullshit.
Although immediately with this subplot is difficult.
It's not giving us very much, is it?
It's funny.
We're very animated when Mrs. Troy comes back. the rest of the
time.
We're like, oh, what the hell do we say now?
Do you see how just all of this is done through dialogue?
And it's just dialogue about the space problem.
It's a really boring space problem.
There's no visuals that accompany it.
Oh, we're back in the lift, Wayne.
I'll show.
What I really appreciate here as well.
Like, it's as much about the acting as it is the dialogue.
But the dialogue is really good.
Like, it's on the nose. it's telling you what they're feeling it
is good dialogue.
Oh, no.
And, and, Like, she says, you know, you don't need to be
embarrassed or ashamed or something.
And he says, no, no, I'm not, but this is private.
I think I think maybe he is, but he shouldn't be.
You know, this is just, you know, yeah, he does say I'm not
ashamed.
I'm inclined to believe that.
I'm not ashamed.
It's just a private matter.
I really like as well the, like, they just, she just puts the wig
into frame.
With no explanation.
And you were sort of going, what, what?
But Nick, this is us seeing him for the 1st time.
It's that shot where we see him liquefying and then she puts the
wig into frame.
Of that shot, there's no cart.
We just get to see him.
But like, and then and look how beautiful she is.
That smile and just...
No one has ever seen me like this.
We certainly haven't, have we?
No, no, of course we haven't.
He tries to be nice.
It looks fine.
It looks ordinary, all right?
Oh, even we non-shapeshifters have to change ourselves every once
in a while.
I could be on the nose, but they play it. beautifully.
But it's it's not the dialogue.
It is really her.
Oh, that too.
You're not what I expected.
And look at her smile.
No one's ever paid me a greater compliment.
It's just beautiful.
The 2 of them, like she's acting against Renee with that fucking
chocolate sauce.
Is she understands right what Star Trek's really about?
I ain't a spaceship and all that bullshit.
Yeah, yeah.
I'll take care of you. love that line.
And he melts in a lap.
Oh, come on.
That's actually quite a nice effect.
That's not too bad.
Yeah, it's terrible.
But it's the best we could do.
I mean, I find those Kurtsman shapeshifters.
That's really ugly goo.
That is quite a pleasant.
It looks different in discovery from how it does in Picard, but in
Picard, it looks like raw chicken.
Like it's really, it's hugely horrible, isn't it?
We're cold enough.
Odo turning into raw chicken whilst he's seducing the knock. can
we?
Oh, dear.
Oh, back to the computer plot again.
Okay.
Maybe, maybe, okay, maybe I've remembered it wrong.
It is really quite dull.
Yeah, no, it's super boring.
It's sort of nothing.
And so what they've done is they've created a sub-program.
They've put the puppy in that and then they've rerouted all of the
data so that it goes through that program so that it still feels
like it's having attention paid to it or something.
Literally, the only difference we see in the station is the lights
come on.
The lights come back on.
Oh, the fire suppression system comes back on in the other room
too.
Oh, look at all those tubes and things hanging from the ceiling.
Oh, there's been a big proper explosion, I think.
Oh my god, is Tesco all right?
So, she's spelled T-A-X-C-O. Tech-Texco.
Oh, I can see why I heard Tesco.
Yeah, they're far from my mind.
Texaco.
Oh, I used to live by a Texico garage, you know.
Yeah, there you go. one of those.
So now he's got 3 ambassadors he can call on.
Maybe, you know, when the truth comes out about his genetic
engineering.
He called in a few favours.
Yeah, Tesco.
But I love how she calls him Julian.
And, you know, when she just says, please, Julian, and a normal
voice, where she's not being brissy.
Like, it's sort of a great relief and it's really good.
Like it really sells how appreciative they are, which is just
dropped all that shit about her.
Yeah.
He's definitely doing comedy Vulcan there, isn't it?
The doctor, absolutely.
Was remarkably efficient, straightening up his uniform.
All right, mate, you know.
The Big Bang Theory awaits.
Oh, this line here is just something about beautifully.
He goes, well, your picnic. didn't have your picnic.
She goes, the best thing about picnic, Odo, is the company.
It's wonderful, isn't it?
But look at the warmth. like, and it's Odo.
When when she leaves or the last shot with Odo, where he just
smiles slightly, which almost never happens and probably at this
point hasn't happened before.
Your sensitivity and discretion. are appreciated.
After that 1st scene, he says your sensitivity and discretion.
It's wonderful.
She gets in one more reference, though, next time I'll see you
Nathan, you know, I'll give you something to appreciate.
But she means it and he likes it.
Look at his reaction when she leaves.
Look at that.
It's wonderful.
You're right.
That is a dead end, perhaps I should have.
It doesn't go anywhere.
They try it once more and then they decide not to go with it.
Double the salary mature if you'll just dismiss your issues about
the war.
I think she did all right, Mitchell, you know.
Good for her.
Did she get shot into space like him?
I can't remember, maybe.
Keep it off the furniture.
I thought was a good line because it's because I was actually
laughing out loud for a second.
Maybe it was just relief that there was some fun happening in that
plot where O'Brien's going, can we keep him?
Can we keep him?
you know?
So I said to you, it was quite interesting to see what they kept
and what they dropped, what they dropped was plots like that C
plot, which are very, very sort of TNG style plots of techno
babble heavy about the nuts and bolts of the ship strokes
station.
What they learn to keep is all of this sort of intense character
work and they take that forward.
Yeah, I mean, you know, like Star Trek, the Next Generation would
never do a plot like that C plot, though.
That's really nothing because what Star Trek the Next Generation
is, is about plots like that, but they have to be plots like that
that have enough going on to make this the episode where X
happens.
Do you know what I mean?
There's no Star Trek, the Next Generation, where the episode where
something goes wrong with the computer, and then we talk about it
quite a lot, and then we fix it by talking about it, and then we
get on with our lives.
Like they would never do that.
It has to be kind of more because it's, that's going to be the
central plot of a TNG episode.
So there's got to be more to it than that.
What DS 9 has, though, is the sort of in-built character
backstories where very touching moments are, are they almost like
built into the characters as they evolve and as they learn more
about themselves, you know, Kira going from terrorists to, you
know, administrator, Odo finding his people as he goes along.
The things we learn about everybody.
I just think they really, they really got the characters right
from the off on DSI.
They weren't all fully formed with the actors, but they kind of
they got them to a point where, I don't know, moments like that in
the lift, they just came every other episode and that's a
difference between this and TNG as well because the characters
just aren't there in TNG.
Like we've said a 1000000 times, it's the cast more than the
characters.
Yeah.
I think, though, that scene in the lift at this early stage when
Odo is just, you know, a paragraph length entry in the show
Bible.
We don't know who he is yet or who his people are yet.
And I don't think the writers know that either.
Then what you really have is let's get Michelle and the most
experienced actor in the cast together in the lift and do
something that they're both going to be really good at.
And I think, you know, that backstory, which later gets followed
up.
I mean, we meet the scientists, don't we, with Odo's hair a bit
later and learn about what that upbringing was like.
But that upbringing is just created for the purpose of this
episode, isn't it?
to give her an in to give her some way of making connection, like
you said, the sympathy that she has, her imagination, her ability
to imagine what it might have been like to have been brought up
like that.
You know, all of those things that, um, her sensitivity and
discretion, you know.
So it isn't quite the characters yet.
I think it is putting those 2 people in the lift and giving them
fun things to do, giving them something interesting to talk about
and that that leads in all sorts of directions.
In the sort of ranking of Luaxana Troy episodes, this is pretty
high.
One, two, I don't know.
I mean, I really love cost of living.
Costco ways to redo that.
I think Half Alive is really good.
You know, like half a life's properly good.
Dark Page is good in what he's trying to do.
It's at that period where... and the execution.
It's, you know, that sort of flat TNG season 7 direction.
But, you know, like if it hadn't been for Dark Page, we wouldn't
have had quite what we had in Nepenthe decades later. you know
that's important, I think, in the way they eventually go with
Deanna and Riker.
Due to the sort of scattershot approach of this podcast of us
jumping about all over the place.
We're putting together the Mrs. Troy picture and we've seen her at
her absolute worst in manhunt.
We've seen her at our absolute best here.
I can't wait till she pops back again to the podcast.
She's wonderful.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to
work out where we're going next.
I'm riding high on my choice of tapestry last time, and you, I
think, are riding high on your choice of the Forsaken this week.
So I'm going to see if I can ruin it all by doing an episode of
Star Trek Picard.
Oh, well, that's not a given that you're going to write.
No it's not a given.
I just wanted you to think for a 2nd that I was going to say
enterprise again.
Well, I always figure that's where you're going.
So it turns out that Enterprise is still our kind of 2nd least
most covered.
Oh, okay.
It's most covered series, but, but, um, but you'll be able to itch
that rather perverse kink fairly soon then.
Yes, I think I probably will have to.
All right.
So I'm going to select Star Trek Picard.
And I'm going to give you a 2nd to do something important for me
which is get German.
The only way we know anything about...
Oh, and the animated series as well.
We never know what they are.
Okay, I'm ready.
All right.
And I'm going to choose a random episode of Star Trek Picard.
And, ooh, I think I know what this one is.
So this is season two, episode six.
Yeah. 2 of one.
Two of one.
I shall give you a little uh precis.
As Agnes struggles with an invasive presence inside her mind.
The crew attend the party celebrating the Europa Space Station
where they must ensure Renee Picard is not manipulated into
withdrawing from her destiny.
And it has a musical number in it.
Oh, salt.
Let's do it.
Is it Agnes?
It's Agnes.
Oh, wonderful.
It's pretty great.
It is pretty great.
And of course, the unwelcome presence in her mind is, of course
the Borg queen.
So it's called 2 of one for that reason because Agnes and the Borg
Queen are kind of becoming united.
So there's a big cocktail party before the big mission that Renee
Picard, who is a young woman who's an astronaut who is going up in
this rocket in the 21st century, and it's the mission that's
important to ensure that we don't become the confederation in the
future.
Is this sort of the middle period of the season where it's all
just sort of running around a bit, waiting to get to the end of
the season.
Kind of, but there is a central thing.
Like it's said at this party, they all have to go to the party.
So they're not all off in their little plots or anything like
that.
There's a central thing going on.
You know, I truly enjoy the stately direction of Jonathan Frakes
and the drumhead that we do recently.
You know, the cameras stood still and focussed on the actors.
Unfortunately, this is a Jonathan Frank's directed Picard
episode.
So the drones will be zooming around the party.
That's what I want to see.
I'll take my anti-nausea tablets before pressing play.
Excellent.
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find
subscription links and links to our social media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Sisrin, and the theme was composed
by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 17th of June 2025 and released on
the 20th of June.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Picard, 2 of one.
Oh, I'm sorry doing that.
No idea about this one.
I'll be going in blind.
Well, like, you remember, like, it's so amazing because, so it's
like, like April 2022 this episode is, right?
So they're showing Picard in sort of February, March, April, 2022.
And so Biden's a president.
We're midway through Biden's term.
And the villains up to this point are ice.
Oh, you know, the people who are now kidnapping people off the
street and disappearing them in America.
They're the villains in this, you know, like 3 years earlier
because remember that they pick up Rios is an undocumented
immigrant and they take him in a bus and they're going to dump him
over the border at some point.
Oh, Rios.
Yeah, beautiful Rios.
Oh, God.
Do you know what?
I don't know why even bobble looking at the comments on these.
Yeah, you keep this in this episode, all right?
I don't know why I bother looking at the comments of Jammer's
website or any fandom talking about new episodes coming out. listen
to this. rolled my eyes over and over for this one.
This storyline is fracked.
Oh, God, I hated this.
Oh, my view on Star Trek Picard is going downhill.
Every single one is everyone shitting all over it.
So the other thing is, though, every so often, you know, he'll
come in and inexplicably say something is really, truly terrible
when it's actually kind of great.
You know, Gemma does that all the time.
And then there'll always be someone going, oh, you know, actually
I thought this was okay.
And there's someone else are trying to go, yeah, I didn't mind it
either. you know, like, so that's quite refreshing. sometimes go
the other way.
This doesn't look like a popular one to the jammer band anyway.
No, but I mean, there's kind of a thing where it's just like if
Star Trek isn't doing what we've always done before, then we don't
like it, and that's the opposite of what I think.
You know, like I...
It's a peculiar thing, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
Star Wars fan base is probably worse, though, you know, when those
new episodes, but I mean, all of them do it.
Like, it's just like the problem isn't that the show has changed
that you're not 10 anymore.
And really, you know, that's the issue.
Who could you be talking about?
Yeah, Doctor Who's worth all of the others put together.
Jesus Christ.
Well, I don't think it is.
I think it's endemics throughout the whole thing.
And like Star Trek is like that.
And, you know, like, do you remember, there's that, there's the
thing from Strangely World Series 3 and it was that clip that they
released ages and ages ago at a Comic-Con or something like that.
And it's the clip where some of the characters get turned into
Vulcans.
Remember that where Pike...
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Who else?
Ahura.
And I think, um, uh, Nurse Chapel and maybe someone else.
There a horrific reaction to it.
Well, people accusing it of racism because like it turned those
people into Vulcans and they started behaving like stereotypes.
And like, when you do know that they're made up, It's not an
actual race.
Oh, Nathan, they don't.
They don't.
And the guy said, no, but they've been used to represent, you know
racial difference and to talk about racism.
It's just like, yes, but they're made up and they can be used to
do something else.
It turns out that episode's called 4.5 Vulcans because obviously
Spock is the half Falcon and the others are full.
A racist title.
Guess what?
There's no way that what we don't what we, what we learn, we have
to learn from this episode, that the true Vulcan is Spock, because
it's not about your DNA.
It's about how you've grown up and what you've experienced and all
of that sort of thing.
And he's a Vulcan because he's had the experience of being a
Vulcan, not because he's been turned into a Vulcan by their sort
of comedy beams or it's an injection or some fucking thing.
Don't ask me whether these people think this stuff is real.
I've seen the footage of them going to the Star Trek experience
you know, where you actually get to go on the Enterprise Bridge
and then they step back into reality and go, oh, no, holodeck off
when they go outside the building, you know?
End program.
No, no.
And I do, you know what?
I have also like watched the Trekkies documentary, you know, and
the various sequels that they are.
And of course, I was highly amused at that fellow, you know, who
wasn't disabled, went down the street in a Captain Pike wheelchair
and that fellow that and his mates that go down McDonald's dressed
up as Klingons for some reason, and the fellow who decks out his
dentist surgery, like the Bridge of the Enterprise, and all this
stuff.
But you really get a sense of the community and how they're living
their life to a set of ideals from Star Trek.
So they're sort of living their best life.
Yeah.
However, there's always going to be a party.
Like, I mean, weird people, like, you know, how many hours of this
show have we watched and podcasted about?
Yeah, but Nathan, it's sort of like 70% hanging with you, 30%.
We just chose to talk about Star Trek.
Do you know what I mean?
And we know it, we think about it.
We have opinions about it and stuff.
And it, like, for me, like, caring about some media thing, like
Doctor Who or Star Trek was what, like, caring enough about that
kind of narrative was perhaps more than, you know, doing English
at school and stuff. what taught me to be a critic, what taught me
to look and at, you know, how techs are constructed and how they
work and what they're trying to do.
And, you know, thinking about why people are making certain
choices in a, in a drama or whatever.
And you know, like I studied that stuff at university as well.
But, you know, like, I think my 1st love is talking about Doctor
Who and why it is the way it is.
I think my 1st life is studying television.
Yeah, yeah.
And the fact is, is the 2 sort of big podcasts I do.
So my Doctor Who one and this.
It's studying.
It's so interesting because it's studying TV that's over 50 years
old.
So you can look at how it was made then, how it's made now, how it
evolved, all the different actors.
There's so much to compare and contrast, like, you know, Star Trek
and Doctor Who on 2 sides of the pond are like TV in a microcosm
right?
It's just everything and how much it changed and what works and
what doesn't.
Um, I'm not saying the fact that they're Star Trek and Doctor Who
isn't important.
Because, something true, I saw those shows.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it really does allow you to study television. over an extended
period.
Yeah.
And so I think, you know, like we we bitch about sort of fans
being unimaginative or conservative or reactionary or whatever, but
like those shows have inspired all sorts of people to be creative
and to, you know, make connections and stuff. be scientists. and
things like that, you know?
Wonderful.
Yeah.
But fuck those guys, honestly.
Yeah, can't you out that bears?
The end.
Go on.
End on that. end on that bit.