Hey, Joe. Hi.
So we're back.
It's Star Trek, the Next Generation series 6, episode 15, Tapestry
which is written by Ronald D. Moore, as we'll soon become apparent
and directed by Les Landau.
How did you find this one?
It's a banger.
I mean, written by Ronald D. Moore. an endorsement.
Directed by Les Lando.
It could go either way. you know, it's our sort of workman like
director that's done 500 90s trek episodes.
Fortunately, he's realised he's got a banger here and I think this
is really well executed.
Me too.
I mean, it's stately.
It's still TNG.
Sure.
But we're going to new places. you know, we're going back in
time.
It tells a complex story and he does it comprehensively.
Um, yeah, I think, oh, I'd see season six, chain of command aside
this might be the best episode of season six.
I think it's absolutely top tier Star Trek, one of the best
episodes ever.
And watching it this time convinced me that it might even be
better than I thought it was.
You know, the premise is pretty straightforward and it's familiar
to Americans, particularly, who tend to know the film.
It's a wonderful life quite well.
And it is very similar to that.
And what really strikes me this time is just how incredibly great
John Delancey's performance is.
And, you know, when you go back and watch him in hide and cue or
an encounter at Farpoint, and he's really stiff and he's kind of
awkward.
Overly theatrical, is it?
Yeah, yeah.
He's not quite sure how to play it.
And I think he's kind of reading it that he's a rather foreboding
and scary character.
He's not cuddly in any way.
And I think with Deja Q. You know, like he starts to come back.
I think might be the 1st time.
That's when he knows, okay, they're the bad guys.
I'm just the comedy on the side.
Yeah, yeah, maybe you're right.
Maybe you're right.
But certainly in data Q when he's kind of vulnerable and stuff and
he's part of the crew and annoying sitcom Q, exactly.
And and the show does tend to lean into that later with things
like true Q, but this is different, isn't it?
Like this is not quite a Twilight zone episode.
It's not a sort of standard Star Trek episode.
And I think this episode is the reason why we have Picard and Q in
season 2 of Picard, where that relationship is the central
relationship, because it's an episode where Q is teaching Picard
that being like Q isn't such a bad thing after all.
And I think it's really great and it's humane as well.
Like Q is kinder to Picard than Picard expects and just the 2 of
them together are so good.
The 2 central performances here are so great and Q is so relaxed
and so funny and so likeable in it.
It's just excellent.
Funny as well though, right?
All those different roles that Q plays throughout this episode.
Is there a Gene Luck Pickard here anywhere?
You know, he is very, very funny as well.
I don't think Patrick Stewart is a slouch in this episode, either
who has to play Captain Picard, as we know and love him, who has
to play a version of himself as a younger man, but as Captain
Picard, and then has to play a version of Captain Picard, that
never made it as a captain, and it's a bit of a failure at life
and he does, oh, for free, so adeptly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was really struck this time through and how different.
It's not a massive difference. you know, like it's not a
caricature.
He's not playing a completely different character.
But there's a weird charmlessness to that version of Picard at the
end of the episode in the blue uniform, which I think is really
just very well done.
It's really well charged.
It just looks so forlorn and without authority. so unlike how he
behaves usually as Captain Picard.
Do you know what I love as well?
is there was a period in 90s television where there was a lot of
genre stuff on, right?
The X-Files, Stargate, Buffy, Star Trek.
There was, you know, shit heaps of TV coming out.
And those big movies.
It's a wonderful life, Groundhog Day, a Christmas carol.
They all did their own versions of the big movies and the big
premises.
And what was really fun was seeing how they absorbed those ideas
into their TV show.
And I think he takes.
It's a wonderful life and absorbs it into TNG in a way that I
haven't really seen it done before.
And I think Picard is the key because it's Picard.
And the punishment he gets for not taking risks.
You know, it's such a great listen, mind you, I was watching this
going, you know, Joe, you leave a very sort of structured, rigid
and ordered, risk-free life.
Perhaps you should be...
This could be why you're still stuck in shelves in the supermarket
you know?
There are some lessons to take from this.
I have to say that I would be quite content working on the
enterprise, doing analyses and running tests for my superiors.
Would you?
That sounds so boring to me.
And I think it'd be fun.
A lot of technical.
I'd like to be like Gynon on the ship. you know, handing out the
drinks and getting all the golfs.
What I think is great too, is that... that there's something here
about the wisdom of Picard as a young man. which I hadn't really
picked up on before, which I think is really generous.
And, you know, it's not just ourselves as young people that we're
critical of.
As you get older, you start to become critical of young people
generally.
And 21 year old Picard is kind of a shadow.
He's an absence here because his role's been taken by present day
Picard. is very well defined though.
He is, and I really, really began to respect him for being so good
at negotiating the world that he finds himself in.
And it's interesting to see how he inept Al Picard is that dealing
with that.
So that Johnny.
And I think the genius of giving his own name. given, you know, a
name that we had never heard to mind referred to by, you know, like
he's a sort of secret person that's a sort of a version of Picard
that was hitherto unexpected, that Johnny is better at being
Johnny than than Picard is.
And that's the lesson that Picard has to learn is that Johnny was
in his own way kind of good and clever and loyal and all of those
sorts of things that Picard didn't recognise in him.
And so I think there's something in it about accepting ourselves
as young people, but also accepting young people as they negotiate
the world on their terms, a world that they experience that's
different from the world that we experience.
So I just thought that was really warm and humane and really
excellent.
It reminds me of one of the other things I love about television
which is the great unseen characters in programs, you know, that
I've mentioned a lot, Curzon, Dax, things like that.
But they're so well defined, despite the fact that you've never
ever seen them.
And, you know, you can't see them because that would ruin all the
work that they've done or maybe it would be a bit of a letdown.
Yeah, god this was wonderful.
It is a wonderful life.
Look, before we go into the episode, I have to say that I have
been sort of exploring the bookshops on flea markets of Eastbourne
lately, and I'm very, very pleased to inform you and everybody
else that I have in fact found Bogeyman by Mel Gilden with Wesley
Crossout, the haircut I used to.
This is the very picture I used to take to the hairdressers all
the time and say, make me look like that.
Oh my god.
The trouble is now, I have taken a picture of this.
So I can put this out with the episode.
Unfortunately, yes, he did make my hair look like this, but I look
like this.
So I, I, in no way as pretty as Will Wheaton was when he was a
young man, but, um, you know, he looks very serious there.
I can't remember.
Fuck all about the book if I'm honest.
I did read the back of it before I came on the call and it sounded
extremely boring indeed.
The tagline on the front cover is Wesley's childhood fears come to
life.
And take over the Enterprise.
Oh, my God.
So it sounds like a good, you know, season two-ish sort of
episode.
It does.
It does. very much so.
I think we should watch this absolute masterpiece, you know.
I think we absolutely should.
All right.
I will count us in in that case.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
Now, something happens in this scene.
So this is a kind of ER scene, isn't it?
It looks very stately by our standards.
It's hard not to imagine it with steady cam and stuff like that.
But Beverly tells everyone to get out of the way.
Strap out of the way, people are entering the scene.
And then this incredible kind of tableau of people beat me.
But all of the extras are out of the way so they're not, you know
being covered by the, which I just think is...
We never usually do that sort of thing.
No one ever says step out the way.
They're beaming in.
Yeah, but we often leave sort of big blank gaps in the shop.
We've noticed a few, haven't we?
Yeah, that was all I could think of.
Yeah.
Well, it's just because they usually hold the camera there for
about 15 seconds and you're like, oh, come on now.
We know someone's gonna appear behind you.
That is a nasty wound he's got there.
Yeah, yeah.
No, it just looks like they've melted his outfit.
I really like Jonathan acting in this.
Do you think too, this scene here is reminiscent of Tasha Yar
dying?
Like, there's absence of a big blob on earth.
But he does have a big blob on his shirt, but she puts those
things on his head and it doesn't work.
And I wonder whether that's definitely there.
This is the best into the music line we ever have.
So good.
It's so good.
Welcome to the Old Life.
You're dead.
I kind of wish they had done.
It's very clear that it's meant to be a sort of Michelangelo thing
with, you know, God reaching out his finger to Adam and we don't
quite stage it like that.
And I think probably it's too obviously John Delancey right from
the beginning.
That's really annoying because he steps into the light, doesn't
he?
And then it's suddenly John DeLancey.
Yeah.
It's so out of it.
Oh, clearly him.
Oh, well.
Yeah, never mind.
They were doing this stuff in a hurry, you know, we're lucky it's
as good as it is.
Well, in fact, I think the white void, and this is kind of the 1st
use of it, is really, really effective here.
Especially when they're staging fights and things like that.
I think that's genius.
I think that's really really good.
When we stage the battle between young Picard and the Norsican and
we do it in that white void with the with the 2 of them looking on
I think it's really excellent.
Do you think they got the idea then?
They're sort of going to do emissaries. soon and go, oh.
We'll use that white void again, you know.
Yeah, we've just got it out the back.
Yeah, I'm in, uh, deep space now, no, we're sort of smear Vaseline
all over the lens, and it's all a bit fuzzy.
It could just be because it's anesty.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, this one's very crisp.
Like, I think it always was sort of pretty crisp.
Um, I love the dialogue here in the next in the when we come
back.
And where he just says, this is the afterlife, and I'm God.
And like, I just think that, like, Stuart's reaction is so great.
That's what he's saying, so funny.
I refuse to believe the afterlife is so badly run or something.
No, no, he says, you are not God.
Like just straight away.
He lives.
It's so well done.
Like just the 2 of them are instantly brilliant together, I
think.
What is great about this as well is they've had so much time
together now.
Picard and Q. Yeah.
They're such a shorthand to this stuff.
We could just go straight in on the amazing premise of Q. You know
controlling the afterlife and you just run with it because we know
what Q's capable of.
We know he can do all of this stuff.
So maybe, maybe he is.
Yeah, maybe he is.
Well, I mean, he actually, like he does say, you know, I can give
your life, you know, take your life away and give it back to you
again with a click of my fingers if you've never seen Star Trek
before.
It's still comprehensible who this person is.
The title tapestry is very good, but my one issue with this
episode is the fact that...
The reason for the title is explained in the last scene.
Thank you, Jean-Luc.
Blasphemy.
Under the inep administrations of Dr. Beverly Crusher.
Yes.
Finally somebody said it.
It's so funny.
Georgia has, she's quite pretty mad, actually. isn't he?
Yeah, he's got a very very period look, I think.
I think he looks good as he's got older.
I certainly like him a lot in series 2 of Macar.
Oh, this is great.
Bringing in his dad.
And it's, have we seen him before?
The dad?
No.
So we see the mother contradicting Picard series two, I think.
We see the mother in...
Where no one has gone before?
Where no one has gone before.
Here, presumably the father's dead.
We're trying to prove this is the afterlife.
So we bring his dead father here.
And, you know, he looks shocked like that's how that's how
Stuart's playing it, but he knows it's bullshit.
It's just Q annoying him.
But I love the people you've killed thing.
Like, you know, here coming up is the sound of everyone that
you've killed.
Oh, that is chilling.
But this is retro, like it's rewriting.
Captain Picard. because this in no way was this in their mind when
they made series one and he's that stiff bug up the butt, Captain
Picard that doesn't want to make an ass of himself with children.
I just always got the impression he'd always been a bit like
this.
Go watch family again.
And, you know, he's always, yeah, you were always the career man.
You were always, you know, you weren't the family man.
You know, you were always on the way up.
I don't think we see a lot of this until now.
Except remember that this is from a series 2 episode.
This premise.
This is a hanging thread from series 2, and I absolutely meant to
look it up before coming on the recording.
Did you ever find out why you just find out that he was stabbed?
I know, I think the Norticans are actually mentioned.
I think that I think that the Norticans are actually mentioned in
dialogue in that series 2 episode.
So I think that it is set up as an idea.
And it kind of, so this is him investigating that.
So more takes something that's been set up and never followed up.
But the sniff that he was this sort of fiery rebel in his youth.
I don't think there's much of that before this, but it's so
great.
It makes Picard so much more interesting to say that he sort of
rejected that, well, maybe less interesting, but...
He certainly kind of becomes an old fuddy duddy in that final
scene after all he's learned.
Q just tosses him his fake heart.
I really like how Q doesn't know as well. or at least pretends not
to know.
And it's kind of like, why is he doing this?
Why is he starting this?
And I also like the idea too.
That no one else sees Q. This is all happening in his head while
he's on the operating table.
And so no one else is aware that Hugh's been involved in this, and
that's kind of the interesting thing about the final scene if
there is anything.
Not only is this fight with the Norsecon, a great fight.
Like, it is really well done.
The, like you said, the white background makes it really stark as
well.
But this is the bit I was messaging you about earlier, where he's
stabbed in the back and he looks at the knife and literally
covered in blood, protruding from his chest and laughs, and that
is so an, that's not TNG at all.
That's really, it is, like, you'd expect him just to fall to the
floor.
But it just made me feel really sort of uncomfortable.
But, but the great thing is, and it's a little bit of a shame
because they lampshaded here.
So you have Q saying it's so unlike you, Jean-Luc, to have a sense
of humour.
And the thing is that by the end of the episode, we know why he
was laughing.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, maybe Picard looking at that flashback doesn't remember why
Johnny laughs at that point, but we know why he laughs because he
knows that he's getting his life back.
And I just think that's so brilliant.
So it's an unanswered question.
It just, it surprised me.
Maybe that was it.
TNG doesn't surprise me very often.
And that's just a shot of that boy on the floor, covered in blood
with dead eyes.
That's really quite shocking.
Yeah, yeah, yeah We don't see a lot of blood in TNG, do we?
Oh, in 90s trait really.
No, no.
Yeah, it's pretty...
That's a great transition where he slapped around the face before
we cut to the other thing.
So we're still in the white void.
He's standing there, he's slapped in the face and then we come to
the room where that's happening.
And there's some other things where some audio comes in before, you
know, the rest of a scene as well.
So what we have here is Cortensweller and Marta Botanities, who
are his 2 close friends whom he manages to alienate because he's
so much a worker. unbelievable characters, very well played.
I particularly liked her.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you know, I think the great genius of this is too, that they
look like they're from the 1950s.
Like the hair.
They look like they're from the 9050s.
So we have to sell.
Yes, because we've got to sell it. from the past, right?
This is...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think it's really great, particularly her.
And, you know, she's called Marty, you know, like the character in
Greece.
Like, I just think there's a very definite attempt.
Don't you think that he looks very 50s as well?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Very movie style.
What I really love is how she starts to fall for Johnny because
it's Picard playing Johnny and he's suddenly a more mature
considered person.
That whole relationship is really, really interesting.
But also, Picard underestimates Johnny because Johnny didn't
decide to have sex with Marta.
Like he never went there and he may have thought about it.
And I think that because Johnny knew how Martin would react.
Picard thinks Johnny's an idiot and so he goes for Marta and ruins
it because Marta knows exactly how Johnny treats women and now
she's just another notch on his bedhead.
But Johnny never went there.
He was wise enough not to do that.
What is it about these captains, you know, that get these
opportunities.
Do you remember Cisco when he went to the all turnative universe
and had it off with Dax, you know?
Oh yeah, I never quite did that.
But then Picard's doing it here as well.
Actually, this is all part of Patrick Stewart's demands, wasn't it
in later season, as he goes, one.
I want to direct and two, I want to have more nuking.
That's what 2 demands.
And he got both.
I mean, he got vash, for God's sakes.
Well, yes, quite literally.
Look at what, look at what, I just think it's so weird what
Delancey's doing in this scene with the chess board as well.
Is he playing with himself?
I don't know.
I just think, like, it's it's interesting, fun business.
And, you know, Q is a chess player. orchestrating all of this.
And, you know, then he smashes it all with his his, you know, stick
thing.
Like all of that's great.
Oh, spares your...
Spare me your musings of your egotistical, pivotal nature and
history.
So good So, again, the idea here is we all have genre brain
right?
And we know that you're not allowed to change the past and that's
very wrong and we can't do that.
And of course, that's super boring and also it wouldn't be true
even if it was a thing.
And so, um, and so Q is there to kind of diffuse that.
I promise everything's going to be okay.
You're not that important, even this exciting queue as opposed to
the this exciting Picard, as opposed to the very boring Picard
who's very visibly not important.
I don't know.
I just think that that's dealing with us as viewers, as genre
brain viewers, I think. genre of brain.
Thank you.
I do like the Q says there as well. give you my word.
And I think your point, if you watch through the whole of TNG, it's
possibly the most honest character in the entire show because he
always says exactly what he means.
Yeah, even though we don't want to hear it sometimes.
He doesn't need to lie.
It's a bit of a shame, you know, that they forgot in all good
things.
They just went on a nostalgia trip, didn't they?
Rather than taking this to its sort of natural conclusion, whatever
that was.
Well, I'm glad that they address it.
Like, I'm glad that we do get it at the end of, you know, at the
end of Patrick Stewart's time in the franchise, we get to re
examine it.
And this, then I won't die.
Oh, yes, you'll die just at a later time.
What you said earlier about looking back and, you know, being a
bit ashamed of yourself as a youth, and just the idea of being
able to go back and rectify mistakes you've made in the past.
They are just such real things that we all think about.
And it's such a 1000000 miles away from the usual TNG technobabble
bullshit.
I usually have to sit through.
I just go, well, what am I supposed to think about that?
No, I know what I think about this stuff because this is stuff I
think about all the time.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, you see, like, it's, it's the penny thing which we're about
to see, which I think, you know, is just, just how astonishingly
inept, um, Patrick Stewart is in dealing with Penny.
And it's, he thinks that he has more insight into her.
But I don't think that he does because like Johnny's a hot young
man and this is an older woman who just wants to fuck him and have
fun and then, you know, go on to the next thing.
Sounds wonderful.
And that's fine.
There's nothing wrong with that.
But he decides to kind of analyse her and show feel pity for her.
My alien was pensioning as he was going, you know, I realised, I
haven't really spoken to you.
I don't know much about you.
And she goes, Johnny, I just want to fuck you, all right?
I don't want to get it.
No.
I'm paraphrasing there.
But he thinks he's being kind of mature and respectful to her
while, in fact, what he's doing is patronising her and thinking he
knows better than her.
Whereas Johnny would have just had sex.
She would have been happy and we would have just got on with the
next thing.
Look at her.
She just wants to feel a young man's body against her.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
That's all right.
What's wrong with?
Conversation.
Excuse me.
Oh, dear.
And then what's the brush off like?
She thinks she's getting the brush off, doesn't she?
Well, he says you're a very handsome woman.
That's as bad as him being told he's punctual later on.
Oh, that's genius.
And look at her reaction to handsome.
Nathan never, ever turned on an old label, all right?
Never ever say that to me.
I don't want your pity.
She goes, you deserve that drink in the face.
Why does every bar in Knightley's trek look just like this one?
It's really terrible.
It's sort of yellow light behind...
Oh, it's John Delancey.
Penny for your faults?
I know.
That's why that character's called Penny, so he can deliver that.
It's a good joke.
Look at the warmth.
He smiles at her.
He gives, sorry, he smiles at him.
He gives him a cloth to wipe off his face.
He gets to do some exposition.
And like he's listening, he cares what, what Picard's saying.
It's wonderful.
This dumb chock game looks so boring, doesn't it?
It looks really shit.
But without holes.
Well, it's snooker, but with pinball things and then with like
tiny, limp, unimpressive little sticks.
You know, between that.
And what's that game that Tuvok plays, you know, on all the
levels?
Palto.
Thank you.
And that boring chess film we saw earlier in the episode.
No wonder the game caught on as an exciting new game.
They all look so tedious.
Strategma as well.
Remember that?
The game gives you orgasms, so that was always going to win out.
Yeah, that's true.
That is true.
You getting old, Johnny.
I love that.
Dask of 9050s.
You're right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You could put her in Vic's lounge very easily.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And of course, we all knew.
What's the fellow's name?
The redhead?
Corey.
We all know or knew a Corey when we were younger, right?
The one that was getting into trouble, that pushed things too far
that had fights.
Yeah, I think that's a very believable character as well.
I wonder what happened to Corey.
Do we find out?
No, I don't know.
He goes off with Captain Narth and stuff.
So I think too.
Let's talk about the Norsicans because, Nathan, I'm so sorry.
Did you see the alien?
No, behind Picard.
It's an Anticon. and a Chile in the back behind him as well.
They're not fighting.
There is an anticon and a Chilean that...
It was a large meal, Lieutenant.
So yeah, I, one of the shows that was on at the, at the same time
as this was family ties, which is obviously where we get Brian
Bonsall from as well.
No, no, no.
That's a family affair.
There's lots of family.
Family ties is where we get Michael J.
Fox from.
And Justine Bateman's boyfriend looked like a Norsican.
This is what bad boys looked like in the sort of early 90s.
Oh, sort of grungy with bad hair.
Yeah, with the long hair and the plaits and earrings and stuff.
He looks like this is so funny.
Well, he says you see Martin Pale so far and he looks at his back
like Hugh looks behind in his back and goes, you look, I didn't
pay on so far. as well.
It's another good lesson as to why they should employ good comedy
actors inside fiction.
Because all of these transitions where John Delaney comes in.
He's absolutely on it with the lines.
I know.
He's loving this.
I think maybe more than the previous ones.
I mean, I think he's really killing it in Q Who.
I love, too, where his reaction here, where, you know, Picard's
giving him some exposition and, you know, telling him the speech
and then he says, that's a beautiful story.
It really gets you right here.
And like he does the stab in the heart. subtly, you know?
Wow.
I don't know about Subway.
I'm not sure John Talansi does so.
But it's wonderfully good.
And he's being quite warm as well.
It's pretty great Do you remember when he turned up in Torchwood
the Doctor Who spinoff?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The FBI investigator, and unfortunately, he was still playing it
like you.
I just noticed Stuart's reaction to the it gets you right here
line. pretty good.
It's just like, yeah, I'm not going to do that.
You know who you that Norsecan looks like?
All the sort of people I know that have been sort of heavy into
rock music covered in tattoos and things, and yet, you know, I
generally find. those are the most gentle, loveliest people.
But it's that sort of hair medal kind of look, you know, like uh
Mallory's boyfriend.
In bar association, that one of their favourite games, the
Norscans is to play darts on each other.
They just throw darts into their body.
Awesome.
Oh dear.
Doesn't Starfleet Academy look boring?
No, I don't know where we are.
Where are we?
We're at something station.
They haven't quite put anything in the window there, have they?
Have you noticed?
No, no.
It's not too bad.
There looks like a building outside.
Oh no.
See, now they're planning to get back at the nausicums.
And I'm assuming Johnny would have been like, yes, let's do it.
Yeah, no, Johnny's absolutely this because Johnny supports him and
isn't a coward. isn't risk averse because that's the other thing
that's happening.
Stop being so tedious, Jean-Luc.
Oh, I don't think we should do that, you know.
Yeah, and that looks like that he thinks that he's being a grown
up.
You know, that he's being a serious grown up and that he's trying
to teach them how to behave like responsible adults.
But in fact, Johnny has a better idea of how to behave under these
circumstances, even though it gets him stabbed.
What it doesn't do is alienate Marta and Corey.
Are you trying to tell me, Nathan, that there's some hope still
for that young 21 year old Joe Ford that had 15 men on the go at
once?
think so.
He certainly had a more fun life than me, I'll say.
Well, I don't think you should regret a 2nd of it.
I trust me.
Oh dear.
Oh, now yeah, he's going to sleep with her, isn't he?
Not quite yet, does he or does he now?
No, because that's when Q comes in with the with the roses, doesn't
he?
Oh, I love it.
Is there a Gene Luck Picard here or anywhere?
And it's actually astounding just how much narrative needs to
happen.
Like how much we need Picard to explain the backstory to Q. Q
keeps appearing so that Picard can tell us what really happened so
that we can compare it against.
He should know all this, right?
If he's not omnipotent.
We don't.
But we don't.
And so we need to hear it explained.
Hugh knows he's in a TV show and we need the information.
So he's asking all the right questions.
I think so.
But I also think that it does actually sell the relationship, just
a warming, you know, like a kind of a warm relationship between
them.
He's got a red bow tie on.
That's so great.
So good.
And just the way he waggles as he comes in.
What surprised me as well?
What's the structure of this episode?
I remember this being like half and half, half in the past on half
on the Enterprise later and then in fixing it.
It's actually about 2 thirds in the past, then just 2 or 3 scenes
on the Enterprise.
Enough to sell the idea that, you know, our brand new Picard is as
mundane as he could possibly be before he goes back and makes the
call.
And then it just, it doesn't end where it should because it gives
us that miserable final scene that explains everything we just
watched.
But it does end sort of quickly with him just waking up on the
bed.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it probably should end with him just waking up laughing on
the bed, shouldn't it?
I bet remaining.
I don't want that last scene in that someone went swimming.
No, no, come on now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. as you know, Bob, we need to explain to
everybody.
Well, I actually think it undermines, I mean, it sort of
illustrates what the episode is doing, but it undermines it just
by making him such a fuddy duddy at the end.
Like so boring, you know?
Yeah, I wouldn't we do that already, right?
Yeah, I guess we do.
And you know, like that is a sort of Star Trek character thing to
do.
Even that the shot, like the shot we go out on in that last scene
with with Delancey smiling over the flowers is pretty great.
You know what they might have done, Nathan, in our new, uh, and I
use inverted commerce when I say this, woke genre TV, is they
might have made Picard sleep with Corey instead.
That would have been interesting.
Yeah, so what's happening here?
Oh, I love that the your, you are my mother line.
You sound like my mother.
Oh, you are my mother.
Is he a proto-Tom Paris?
Like Tom Paris.
They want Tom Paris to be like this?
Oh, we've had the 1st duty, haven't we?
So, yeah, we have last year.
Yeah.
Oh, this got like an act as well.
They could have brought him on.
I mean, look at him. very pretty as well.
He could have been gone out with B'lana.
The children they would have made.
They would have been so beautiful.
As usual, the sort of tricks that they pull people.
Yeah, remember when Wesley was talking about the chilli sauce and
Sonic shower.
This is sort of fiddling about with the Domjot table.
I mean it's not very inspired, is it?
No, no.
But, you know, like it's okay, I guess.
What do you think of the uniforms?
I think I might prefer them to our TNG uniforms normally
actually.
Yeah, so these are the uniforms they're modified, aren't they?
They're the uniforms from the films.
Um, uh, but this is decades after the films and what they don't
have is the kind of puffy collar.
Like they're just wearing t-shirts under the, under the jacket
instead of there's a kind of collar that they, that they have.
But they look more military.
I think they look really good.
I mean, how refreshing.
This lady here.
She's just got a blouse on some trousers.
It's so nice to see somebody just in you know, casual clothes.
No, she's not in casual clothes.
She just taking her jacket off.
That's the uniform.
She's wearing a uniform. outside the window, Nate.
Is that the bridge?
It looks like a building.
Don't you think it's like a building and a bridge and stuff?
Like, I think that's actually quite well sold.
That's not too bad.
It's just a photographic blowup or something.
Picard, you are old enough to be her father.
Don't you dare take advantage of this young lady.
Yeah, but that's exactly the point because he does and Johnny
didn't and this is a mistake.
And see, I like Martin because I just think it's a really relaxed
performance.
I think she's lovely.
She seems smart.
She's beautiful.
Like, just, she is quite stunning.
But then I kind of went, why is she so, like, why is she suddenly
you know, why is she convinced that they've ruined everything?
Like that nothing happens.
Oh, come on, Nathan, have you not slept with that friend?
And then gone?
Oh, okay.
Yeah, yeah.
But I've done it a few times.
Well, you see, what I think, what I think is the, is the, the
thing is that this is our way of saying that Johnny is better at
negotiating this life than than Jean-Luc is because he never went
there and because he knew.
Does he make her less interesting as well because she's fallen for
him because he is so balanced and, you know, whereas she didn't
look at Johnny twice, right?
Or was there a chemistry anyway?
I'm assuming there was a chemistry because I think that it works.
What works is that Picard makes a mistake that Johnny doesn't
make.
And it's the same mistake, you know, that he makes with Penny.
And it's the same mistake that he makes with Corey.
He's cautious, he thinks he's being mature, but he's in a world of
21 year olds and people like that and he just can't, you know
eating her face off there.
Yeah, well, very unpleasant.
I mean, they've done what they do in the 90s.
They've made the 18 year olds 30.
So it looks age appropriate, but...
So they're 21, aren't they?
They're all 21.
Look at Picard.
He's looking good, isn't he?
Good morning darling.
So funny.
And then there's just a little moment of gay panic.
Like, there's a moment where they just sit there staring at one
another before he says anything.
Then he says it and then Picard pulls the cover up, but he's
actually there smiling at you for quite a little while.
And then he pulls the cover up because he's naked, like we've just
seen clothes on the floor.
So presumably he's entirely naked because he's been fucking.
And Q is on top of the bad clothes in in.
But then we're just having the rest of this conversation, which I
just think is great.
He doesn't tend to get out of there.
Be specific, all right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sorry.
That's quite a nice hairy chest, actually, isn't he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's been working out.
I reckon they do that.
He's been waiting.
There's, I can see a cephalic archery going down that cephalic
vein rather going down that bicep there.
Oh, here we go.
Back to the bar.
So this is the scene now, isn't it?
Where, where we kind of change history officially and they don't
have the fight.
Yeah, yeah.
But in order to do it, he punches Johnny, doesn't he?
not Johnny.
He punches Corey, he pushes him over.
I think that, oh, Jean-Luc, you know, oh, Picard was just really
shit in bed and that's why she's like, maybe that's it.
Sorry.
You know, beforehand, I thought you might be a goer, but now I
know the truth.
Everything's changed.
Yeah.
Yes, but also probably he was super cautious and just annoying.
Do you know what I mean?
He wasn't like a hot 21 year old, Johnny, who doesn't, you know
like doesn't give a fucking, is also kind of a bit proud of his
ability to give women a good time, I think.
Don't you think?
I think you only have sex like a 21 year old when you're sort of
my age when you're having an affair and it's someone brand. with
your actual partner of 45 Yes, you're right.
You're very considered.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I just think that, you know, it wasn't as much fun.
But it is like he avoided it because he knows how he treats women
and he knows how Marta thinks of it and he doesn't want to end up
in that category.
He doesn't want to put Marta in that category and he would never
have gone there.
And he does completely ruin these relationships.
Yeah.
And I'm assuming in the original timeline that those friendships
thrived, right?
He explicitly says that, doesn't he?
He says that Johnny, he says that Corey and I go on to be friends
for many years after this.
Unfortunately, since Encounter at Far Point, neither of them have
been mentioned, but you know, never mind.
No, you know.
Johnny's never been mentioned as a person either.
Every time the car goes back to his quarters.
He writes a pen letter to Corey, you know, and rings up the other
one.
Yep, no, rings murder up.
Exactly. managed to get slapped by one woman.
A drink thrown in your face by another and alienate both of your
best friends.
You're doing pretty well so far.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And what's this?
So see what he's got holding up to his head?
Like, it's holding up this leak or something or like a spinach.
And then she just takes some bite out of it for like no reason at
the end of that line.
It's so great.
It's so funny.
It's like, you will look at me in this scene, all right?
He could be at the front, but you will look at me.
I want business.
I need to have business.
Well, like with the chess sport, you know.
I mean, it's a lot of business, didn't he, John DeLancey, and it's
wrong.
But it's easy to see why he's a fan favourite. isn't it?
Oh, yeah.
He livens up this show.
This very serious show every time he turns out.
They just need that element of chaos in this show sometimes.
I think this is the best episode he's in.
And I think Q-Hoo.
Reasonable, you know, a competing claim.
But I think he's so much better in this than he is in Q Who.
I think you are still about space things.
Well, it's about the book, isn't it?
I think you could technically be called by some people the best
Borg episode.
Maybe not the best queue apps.
De Jacques Q is a brilliant queue episode.
It is pretty great.
It is very good.
But I think there's more to it this than that.
Oh, we're about to learn the Nausean word for testicles.
Keep an eye out.
They do run with this though, don't they?
Because then every sort of character that we meet, Tom Paris
Cisco.
They've all had bar fights when they were younger.
We're norticans.
Yeah.
Because they have Gurumba, which is obviously the Norsican for
testicles.
Oh, really?
But they probably throw dolls in nose as well.
That's the very idea.
Yeah, look, and Corey rushes to defend.
Oh, there is some wait till we remount this.
So this is him successfully avoiding being stabbed by pushing
Corey over the bar stool and over the table and ruining their
friendship forever.
Look at him.
He's furious.
Oh, I don't know who you are anymore.
Yeah, but you're not my friend.
Like that's that's pretty great.
And she should have fallen out with, and you were just terrible in
bed.
You're a dud rude, is what we say in Australia.
Dodge Roo.
Yep, you're a dud root.
Oh my god.
These are my favourite scenes now.
Mr. Picard.
The lieutenant.
Junior Grace.
And again, Wharf's line comes in before we come to the Enterprise
Bridge.
So really suddenly.
And we get in and out of these, you know, dream sequences, not
with special effects or anything like that, but just with, you
know, the director cutting to a different thing. which I just
think is much, much better.
And also I think the look of him in that blue outfit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But his body language, he sort of carries into himself a little
bit.
He never smiles.
He always looks, he looks a bit pathetic.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Which is kind of the idea.
I mean, especially the bit where he goes up to Will and Deanna in
10 forward.
Please stay, counsellor.
I would like your counsel too.
Oh boy.
It was so, so sad.
But also as well, we've seen so many of these episodes now where
they rewrite the timelines, parallels.
You could pull them out of your arse, right?
And this is only for a couple of scenes, and sometimes it does
feel like they're manoeuvring the actors into positions where
they're not comfortable, whereas I absolutely believe Michael Dawn
Jonathan Fraser, Marina, how they all treat him in this.
This is how TNG has always been.
Yeah, yeah.
It's really, it's just terribly well done, and I think it's
because the character stuff is so obvious that the actors know
exactly what's happening.
It's not a space thing that they have to decide how they feel
about it.
This is a real thing, I think.
But when Ron Moore reached for the Thesaurus, for the different
words that described mundanity, that Picard gets thrown at him in
a minute, I was just like, with everyone, I was going, ooh.
Oh, God.
It's the, it's the way that it's, it's the word punctual. where
there's a big pause.
There's a big pause. feel like I should say one more.
Yeah, you can see, you can see Ryka trying to think of the next
thing and he comes up with punctual and then kind of stares for a
second.
I think it's a brilliant comedy delivery.
Like, it's one of the laugh out. like in an episode with John
Delancey in it.
I think Frank's, you know, comes 2nd at like comic delivery of a
line at that moment.
Almost as good as when Troy called Riker seasoned in best of both
worlds.
The words you never want to hear.
You're so reliable, you know?
And look at poor Troy.
She goes, oh, maybe I should go, yeah?
yeah.
Because she knows him and has an opinion about him, you know, like
here we go.
Oh, punctual.
Oh no.
So what would you say about me?
I think as if I'm capable of command, you know?
Please.
It's the look that he gives him when he says punctual.
It kind of like, is that all right?
You know, like, it's pretty great.
And Troy's not even looking him in the eye at that point.
No.
Oh, God.
Oh, no, now she is.
Look at the pity on her face.
Yeah, yeah.
And again, also, I think, too, what's happening here is that this
is less like a realistic scene, and it is much more like Q has
sort of manoeuvred these characters in to deliver the, you know
the moral of the story.
So we get this little chorus where the 2 of them are saying what
has gone wrong with his life in this really quick way, rather than
us discovering it, we don't have time to discover that he's like
that, we need to be told, but getting those characters to do it is
really good, I think.
So on the nose though, isn't it?
Because he didn't take that one risk in the past.
So he's never taken a risk in his life and I'm not sure. psychology
or life works like that.
But for the purposes of the episode.
Yeah, but I also think that if he, it's the kind of thing where if
Johnny, because that's the other thing you, when you're a kid, like
sometimes it doesn't work.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, some kids don't survive the bar fight with the Nausicans, but
but, um, if he had taken that, you know, what it is that makes him
become a captain, what it is that makes him stand out is a
willingness to take risks.
And because he's cautious because he's a middle-aged man and he's
too cautious to be a 21 year old.
You know, he kind of fucks it up.
This is a terrific bit of action where he just sits there.
Like he wants to be angry, but he contains it and he goes, all
right, Q, you've made your point.
You know, is this what you want for me?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, yeah.
This is the, the Geordie choice.
It's the uniform.
He looks more stiff than usual.
Surely the colour just can't do that.
Yeah, yeah.
But I think it makes him look pale as well.
Like, I think it makes his complexion look different.
It's, um, it's...
Does it amuse you to think of me as a dreary man with a tedious
job?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, here's gold again.
If you a 2nd chance at life, John Luke, you know?
And all you do is complain.
Oh, I love him.
Can't Q be a member of the crew, please?
Oh, no, we tried that.
Well, he nearly was, yeah, yeah.
Banju, isn't that?
That's basically what Picard becomes before Picard starts, right?
Is there's that terrible accident and he goes off and lives a very
safe life in the vineyard?
Well, I think I think what happens is he pulls out of Starfleet
because he wanted to help the Romulans and um, had Starfleet's
guarantee that he would help the Romulans and then the thing on
Mars happened and and Starfleet became cautious and insular and he
was now no longer permitted to help.
And he just said, well, fuck it, I'm off.
Then in that case, if I can't help, what's the point?
It's so funny though, when he's back on a ship, you know, he's
down on that planet in, what's that called?
Starlight Rag City with the pirate costume mom and he's back in
the thick of it again and having the best time.
That's who he does.
Thus city rag.
He's an adventurer.
He an explorer.
Yeah, and all of this stuff, you know, now Q. So everyone explains
it to him.
Like this is a very, very talky episode, isn't it?
It's very talky, but just because it's these 2 most of the time
and they're so great, and the dialogue is so good, that it's fine
if the philosophical discussion is interesting and it's funny and
it's sort of lightly jumping from one scene setting to another.
I don't know.
I think this moves at a lick, even though there is a lot of talk.
I really like this too, where he just asks, like, he doesn't
berate Q. He doesn't do anything.
He just says, you were right.
I made a bad call.
Can you fix it for me?
And he just asks.
We have been there before, Nathan.
Do you know, remember in Q Who?
when you want me to say I need you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I need you.
I need you.
But this is a bit less kind of over the top.
Now, look, there's some incredible stunt double work in this.
Oh, let me pay attention.
Particularly martyr.
Marta has a really...
And then there's one shot.
There's like Mara being attacked by the thing.
Whenever you see Marta from the back, it says stunt double.
There's one really bad shot of Stuart's tub double, it's really
great.
Look, they're tearing this bar apart.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They really beat the shit out of pottery.
He tops that.
Norsacan right over his shoulder.
God, you know, I hate stabbings.
Oh, that's the one way I wouldn't want to go.
Yeah, it's a particularly English thing to do, I think.
Well, spam, yeah.
Yeah, so I bought school, it certainly was, yeah.
Oh my god.
But there, he laughs.
Now we know why he laughed.
You know, it's perfect.
Most of there, cutting from him being stabbed to laughing on the
bed.
That is iconic right?
That is a definitive TNG moment.
And it should end with us pulling up away from the bed.
What if it is?
Absolutely.
Yep.
No, we still got one moment of...
Oh, yes.
Now we need Beverly to explain to us that he's going to be all
right, even though he's the main character of the show and it's on
next week.
Of course, she's all right. yeah that's right.
That's right.
I know, I know.
I still don't know what to make of it.
Well that's fine.
Q credits.
They didn't explain anything.
I mean, I, the one thing I took away from this scene was I liked
Riker being impressed learning about, you know, young Johnny in
this impetuous.
I do like that, but it's still, I think it's a little bit crap and
it's pretty hard for Jonathan to find a way of playing it that
doesn't just seem incredibly cheesy and slightly patronising.
I remember debt of gratitude.
Yes.
Oh yes, yes.
There are parts of my youth proud of.
We know.
We've watched that.
Yes, we saw all of that, but he shouldn't be saying that now.
Do you know what information that should be saying?
You did it.
Yeah, yeah.
How did that work out for you?
Like, it's not, it's like, forget it, learn something.
Unravelled the tapestry of my life.
Yes thank you.
But I mean, what really happened is that he discovered that Johnny
was better at negotiating the life of a 21 year old in his
situation than Picard himself would have been.
I'm saying they found that we shone for his current position.
To quote another TNG episode, you're saying that we shouldn't have
2nd chances.
Yeah, then we did.
We did get that title in there, didn't we?
Maybe that's the theme this year.
I'll go looking, because that's another one.
You get another run at something.
I think that's a really good episode too, because it is a standard
science fiction plot that's used to do a character thing, which I
think is really well. 2nd chance is it's so drabbily directed, but
it's a good script and it's well acted.
Yeah, yeah.
Whereas I think this episode was really, very well directed, a
really well cast as well.
I think it does a really good job of the fantasy staff.
Like, there's a couple of special effects where you see Q
appearing and disappearing, but on the whole, he just appears as
the camera moves around and there he is in shot suddenly, or he
appears suddenly behind you, and, you know, we cut between fantasy
sequences and past sequences in the present.
We don't do anything fancy.
We've seen that stuff done quite badly, you know, already in this
podcast.
You know, I got very confused there for a second.
The next episode started and it's a pan around Deep Space 9.
I went, what, what's going on?
Oh, they said birthright?
It's birthright next.
Yes.
I'm much more boring episode than this.
But let's just say that Ron Moore took a hold of.
It's a Wonderful Life.
He transposed it onto TNG and it was a roaring success.
It's one of the best versions of this story, I think I've seen.
Primarily because it takes a character and reveals like fantastic
new shades, but it also, it just really drives home that point
that moral of take a risk, you know?
Yeah.
But also, like, don't be hard on you as a young person.
And young people generally.
I just think there's something really humane.
And it wasn't really central to that final scene, which I think is
a shame.
That Picard learns that if it wasn't for Johnny, he wouldn't be
who he is today and that Johnny is good at things that he wouldn't
have been good at in that same position.
Yeah, I think there's something to regard yourself, even making
faltering dumb mistakes, all of that sort of thing that doesn't
mean that you're bad or incompetent.
Exactly right.
Yeah.
I'm as special as I am, Nathan, because of all those fucking
stupid choices I make, but I wish there were many.
I think the other thing that really came out of this for me
because we've done a couple now, and that is when you look as TNG
as a whole, John Delansey really is an MVP of, you know, not the
MVP, but he's one of them, you know, and every time he shows up, I
think unanimously it is greeted, you know, with applause.
Now that's got to say something.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to
find out where we're going next.
This one was my excellent choice.
I have a history of those.
And so it's your time to take us somewhere terrible, like perhaps
enterprise.
I don't think you do have a history of taking us to excellent
choices, you know.
Two times out of three, you choose Enterprise.
Yeah that is true.
I think certainly true.
We should go back and have a look, actually, and see.
And do the statistics of whose hit rate is better.
You or me. choosing this shit episode.
I mean, I'll take us to DS9 quite a lot and that's usually a good
thing.
That helps.
So guess where I'm going to take us today.
DS 9. right.
Now, look, come on, now we've got a form of doing this now.
We do a voyager, or we do a TNG and then we do a TS9, you know.
That's fair.
I think I fancy something, you know, after a true turkey in Alice
and an absolute gym in tapestry, I might try and see if I can seek
out something a bit mid, yeah?
Okay.
Yeah.
Middle of the road?
Let's see what we get.
Oh, God, where have we gone?
Here we go.
A random Star Trek Deep Space 9 episode is season five.
Oh, that's a good start.
Fucking hell.
It's always trying to make us do this one and we always skip past
it.
Episode five.
The assignment.
It's Rosalyn Chow again.
No, no, no.
No, I don't want to do that, though, because I feel that we're
going to run out of Rosalind Chow if we do that.
Okay, right, that's fine.
I want to sort of eke her out for out because, no, that's fair
enough.
Time's off and proved.
You know, she is great.
She is pretty good.
Okay, let's see what's next.
Oh, is this meat?
Meet the good.
Meet to good.
Okay, your random Star Trek Deep Space 9 episode is... season
one.
Uh-oh.
Ooh.
Episode 17.
The Forsaken.
It's Mrs. Troy.
Oh, is it?
It's Mrs. Troy in in the lift.
It's that one.
And there's also some kind of thing that comes and lives in the
computer of the of the station or something, which sounds very
mid.
And also, I think Dr. Pashir is forced to deal with the
ambassadors of unhappy, the most miserable ambassadors to the
station we've ever had, and he's the one that's put to look after
him.
There's like three, there's lots happening in it.
Oh, let's do that one.
Okay, all right.
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley, where online and entitled Star Trek Project
com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social
media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Cisrin, and the theme was composed
by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 10th of June 2025 and released on
the 13th of June.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Deep Space 9, The Forsaken.
So, what's it called again, the Forsaken?
The forsaken, yes.
I mean, it's Majel, and so happy days.
We've done, we've done Migel on, on Deep State Stone already
haven't we, at one point?
Do you know what that would leave?
That would leave only fascinations left for her.
Awesome.
I mean, we haven't done too much of one, have we?
We've done a couple And it is always interesting to see a show
forming.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And absolutely, it does a tail end of one.
So I think they're sort of slowly getting there.
Yep.
Yeah.
But at the same time, they're still doing backhanders to TNG.
So please get people to watch our show, bringing Mrs. Troy
bringing back, you know, bringing Q. Okay.
Well, it could go either way, I think.
All right, let's do it.
Forsaken.
Yeah.
I haven't watched it for ages that one.
Is it named after the plot with the computer thing, the thing that
lives in the computer?
She's not forsaken, is she?
I thought that the computer was like a baby.
Doesn't something that's like a baby computer program end up in
the computer?
I just remember they purr in the most sexiest costumes in this
one.
I do remember that.
She's got tits.
She brings her tits with her to this episode, I think.
Sort of lame cat suit, one more.
Oh, well.
Yeah, there's a good chance that will be, sort of, middle of the
road, but we have got to do some of those. tend to go one way or
the other.
Yeah that's true.
That is true.
Oh, that was fun.
Far out. good episode.
That's a great episode.
So good.