Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we're back aboard the Enterprise D for an episode of Star Trek
the Next Generation.
This is the Drumhead, series 4, episode 21, written by Jerry
Taylor, which I think is kind of interesting and directed by
Jonathan Frakes when he could still keep the camera still from
time to time.
Oh, wonderful.
Now I could see all the actors very clearly when they were
talking.
Now, fun fact, we're recording today on the 29th of April, 2025
and this 1st aired in the US on the 29th of April, 1991.
So it's 34 years ago today that this 1st aired.
Happy birthday, Admiral Satay.
So I think that this is a pretty great episode.
It is very, very Star Trek the Next Generation.
There's no real other series that could do this, but the trial is
a thing that we do in Star Trek quite a lot.
We haven't covered any trials yet, and there are 100s of the
bloody things in 90s track.
The most recent one that I did, I think, was series 2, episode 2
of Strange New Worlds, which is called, I think it's called Per
Asperaad Astra, and it's incredibly moving and absolutely
brilliant and has an incredible guest turn from Una's defence
lawyer, a really, really great performance.
And then you think about things like measure of a man with
Commander Maddox, who is so memorable that he came back in Picard
played by someone else entirely. from DS9 in series.
A massive engagement from series four.
Oh we have done one.
It was a light trial, but it was a trial all the same.
We did Death Wish, didn't we?
Oh, that's a try.
It was done in the same sort of format.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's true.
And there's that terrible one in early Voyager where Tom Paris has
been accused of...
Oh, shit, yeah.
Yeah, um, ex-post-facto. facto.
That's exactly it with the strange bird people with the sort of
horrible bird feathers over.
He's forced to relive the crime over and over again for a series
of noirish flashbacks. exactly it.
That's exactly it.
I think there's a dog that gives that one away.
I can't remember.
Maybe this is kind of the best one.
No that's a ridiculous thing to say.
This and the 1st duty.
Because that's a, is an injury, but it's a, it's still done in the
same source structure.
Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
Like, I think this is really great.
And I think it's one of the great guest performances on Star Trek
the Next Generation. without doubt.
Yeah, yeah, without a doubt.
I think she's really magnificent.
So this is Gene Simmons, who had a massive career.
She was born in, in 1929, which means she's in her early 60s
terrifyingly in this episode and...
Startlingly beautiful. stunning.
Absolute movie starlet looks.
Yeah, gorgeous.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, she's still very beautiful in this, but in a, you know, in
a mature way.
You actually directed me to a picture of Gene Roddenbury and her
which must have been at about the time this was shot, and she does
look stunningly beautiful.
She just looks, you know, you can see in her face the way she
looked as a woman.
They are gazing adoringly in each other's eyes, aren't they?
Yeah, really?
Gene and Jean are gazing at the orange.
Yeah, exactly.
The 2 jeans.
Yeah.
So she's magnificent.
And I, watching it this time, found the way that her character was
presented was really, really interesting because, um, you know
obviously the the most obvious antecedent here is the crucible
isn't it?
Yeah.
Where it's looking at a tendency to construct conspiracies and to
pursue enemies in sort of inside an organisation and the way that
sort of spirals out of control and turns into accusation after
accusation.
And there's obvious reasons for, you know, for the crucible, having
the themes that it does, Arthur Miller was not permitted to travel
to the UK to see the premiere of the crucible, because he was
writing it in the midst of all that McCarthyist hysteria.
And while now America is, you know, locking people up and accusing
people and doing all sorts of things.
It's hard to draw a line between that and what's happening here.
There isn't really a kind of reason given. why this happens as
well.
Like, like, into cruiseball, things like that.
It's very often like people seizing power by pointing the finger
or diverting attention from what they're doing by pointing the
finger.
Whereas there isn't a through line in this, is there?
There isn't like an ultimate...
Okay, I'm accusing you of this, so I can do this.
Yeah.
It's just that she's rampantly paranoid.
And, well, I mean, I believe she genuinely believes.
What is she saying?
Yeah.
I think it is in her character.
And I think that the way that she's presented.
It's perhaps not sufficient to justify the kind of rampage that
she goes on.
But even like quite early on.
She's a she's a psycho.
And it's very clear from the way that she interacts with everyone
that there's something seriously wrong with her.
And, you know, the way that her downfall is obviously her daddy
issues, you know, the moment that Picard quotes her father and
suggests that her father wouldn't have approved of her.
Ah, see, that...
She gets out scene, did they?
Yeah, that's an extraordinary scene, an amazing performance by
Simmons, and that's how she's brought down.
But there's nothing systemic behind this.
Although, like, we were we were absolutely mock the scene where
she says her backstory about the debates that her father falls her
you know, so it sounds like it was a very sort of regimented
upbringing.
Yeah.
So in a way, she's a victim because she's been twisted to be the
way that she is.
I mean, she seems like she has some kind of borderline personality
disorder, and we'll talk about that going through.
I think she's really like a piece of work.
I love that though.
It's very uncomfortable how she's very charming one minute. utterly
ice cold for next.
Yeah, which is precisely her modus operandi.
Exactly, you know, what I kind of want to identify.
Most as if it's to throw people off, you know?
But I also think that it's just she's weirdly damaged and a bit of
a psycho.
The other thing that I think is really great.
And it's because it's Jerry Taylor, that she kind of knows the
show.
And so we get all of these back references, like once we put
Picard on the stand, we start critiquing his behaviour in the
previous episode.
In a way that this show so rarely does.
It never looks back and says, well, why the hell did you do that?
was very...
I said to actually before, DSI does it a lot.
It looks back, old plot points will make no sense.
The writers go, well, let's do something with that.
Let's accuse Bashir of being a spy.
And it is only one scene and nothing comes of it, really.
No.
But I'm so pleased it was there because Picard squirms in that
chair.
He's got no answers, you know?
How many people died, 11,000?
Oh, fuck, you know, like, yeah.
What could I possibly say at this point?
And it's great too, because it kind of rewards us for watching.
Like it, it was a fun thing.
It was the 1st time that we saw that sort of thing happened
outside of the fact that, you know, episodes occasionally had
sequels that we had.
My name is so good.
Can't they identify that moment's good and go, we should do more.
We should do more of that.
Yeah.
But I think, you know, because I think Jerry Taylor is pretty
great as well.
And I think the fact that the person who comes on board and
conducts the investigation, the fact that she's a woman, I think
is almost certainly down to Jerry Taylor and it's a really, really
great choice, I think.
It would have been duller otherwise.
And for once, they've stepped back from that and gone, let's not
bring in, you know, a soap opera actor to play that role.
Let's bring in someone really good, you know, he's going to make
everyone sit up and pay it.
What I really liked about this as well was the structure of it.
Because the 1st 3rd of this, even though you are right, you you
start to have feelings about Admiral Satay very early in the
episode. and how she's behaving.
But she's generally very amiable in that 1st third.
And it just seems like your sort of standard TNG.
Something's happened on the ship.
There's sort of political ramifications.
We're doing the investigation.
We're having a light trial.
We sort of know where it's going.
Somewhere in the middle of the episode.
You get that feeling in the pit of your gut that something is
going wrong.
Suddenly, fingers are being pointed in every single direction.
And then by the end of it, there is a, there is a genuinely thick
atmosphere of paranoia and disquiet about this that you don't
often get with TNG.
Like, Tinge don't usually make me squirm in my seat when I'm
watching it.
But when Simon Tarsis is being interrogated about his Romulan
heritage.
You know, I was really uncomfortable watching it.
I think this is a bit of a minor classic, but I do think I sent
you a message saying that like this, in no way is this television
really, is it?
I mean, this could be on the stage in how it's shot.
Like, it's basically all done in one room, technically.
Um, and it does suffer from a couple of TNG cliches that we will
laugh at throughout the episode.
It's still TNG.
It's still very TNG of the period, I think.
But that's not a bad thing.
Season 4 of TNG is pretty damn great.
The halcyon days of the next generation.
Exactly.
Well, should we watch the halcyon days?
I think we should.
I will count as in. 5, 4, 3, 2, one, and we're off.
You know, I did wonder, Nathan, because it's obviously it's called
the drum howl.
What the hell's that all about?
Thank you, Captain Picard.
Explaining it.
So I did look it up.
Sometimes it gets called a kangaroo court as well, which, I don't
know, that seems racist to me, but it, you know, it's like
shockingly brutal punishment, what characterised it too.
So this is Judan, who is wearing a very natty kind of suede
outfit.
He looks pretty great.
Is this pre or post redemption?
This is pre-redemption, is it?
It's pre-redemption because we actually have, because redemption
is maybe 5 episodes away. towards the end of series.
Oh, is that right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is four, isn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah, and redemption, that's right.
Redemption is the next is the next cliffhanger.
I mean, it's definitely post best of both worlds, isn't it?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
There's a conversation with Judan and Wharf having the turbo lift
about it, which I think is really good where Judan says, yeah, your
name isn't spoken of.
And I think that's part of the misdirect here.
So we start with this trial or this inquiry, which is very low
key.
It only has Deanna and it's telling that it has Deanna, right?
Oh, this is so great.
This is so good.
So Deanna's there and Saban is, remember, Sates offsider is also a
beta Zed.
But a betazoid.
But the thing is, of course, that down is a shit beta soy.
She's heartless.
She goes lying.
Well, I'm not too sure.
She goes, he is hiding something, but I'm not sure what.
Well, thank you, Deanna, for your contribution.
And to this episode.
Goodbye.
We won that too.
What, I loved it because, you know, how you and I, we always talk
about how sort of DS9 is the show that has running continuity and
things like that.
I couldn't believe how much of this episode was built out of
established God.
So this scene with Warf in a minute, talking about his
discommendation, obviously we've already spoke about the
consequences of the best of both world.
Obviously, we did the neutral zone the other day when the Romulans
come back and they're a massive threat from that point on.
And that is Simon Tarsus's lineage.
There's loads of it in here.
This is great, isn't it?
Wharf beats the shit out of him.
Do you know, I've got to say no, Nathan.
I really, after watching how amazing he looks in DS9, his hair in
these mid-seasons.
It's still better than his terrible season one here, to be fair.
Like this is probably, you know...
This is sort of his teenage hippie face. where it's starting to
become acceptable, I think, and from here on, it only improves.
And again, you know, my theory.
So we go to the opening credits with literally no hint of what the
episode's going to be about, but it does look like it's going to
be about this investigation into Japan.
And so I like that, though.
For once it's sort of lulling you into a full sense.
Yeah, exactly.
We've not even met Admiral Satay.
No.
Yeah, we don't know that it's about her.
And so it looks like business as usual.
It does look like a normal episode of Star Trek the Next
Generation that gets derailed by the appearance of Settee, which I
think is really good.
We like normal episodes of Star Trek the Next Generation.
We do.
It's an even better one than that.
And I quit very quickly before she turns up, just address the poor
costume that they put admirals.
Gene Simmons in.
So she has 3 costumes.
I know, but all of them are very cumbersome and she sort of floats
around the place as if she's got no legs and she can't really move
her body either in a particularly believable way.
So it suggests that she's sort of behaving in quite a wooden way.
Watch her.
It might be the outfit.
Stuck in what position?
all of the time And yet, you know, the dialogue, but she's
delivery.
She's given a proper...
I just wish they'd given a better costume to wear.
She looks uncomfortable in them and that's unfortunate.
I think it was a better, like, it was a good idea not to put her
in a terrible Starfleet admiral's uniform.
And it is kind of like, we've got Gene Simmons and it's just like
let's put her in an amazing...
Flowing radish frock.
Like, that seems to me to be the right instinct, I think.
Maybe the frock itself isn't so great.
Although I do think the 1st outfit, which is the outfit that she
wears when she 1st appears, uh, and it has that fantastic de
colatage.
Now what's this?
Her investigation.
Satee's investigation exposed the conspiracy 3 years ago that
infiltrated Starfleet command.
So did she follow up on the episode conspiracy from season one?
Yes, that's absolutely what they're talking about. continuity.
It's really good, isn't it?
Because that was amazing.
All right.
Sherry Taylor sat at the typewriter when I'm going to break all
the rules this week.
Look at her.
She looks fantastic.
I don't know how you can complain about that, frock.
Look at it.
With her decolitage and her exposed shoulders.
It's hard faulty.
Her arms and her legs barely move.
That's so great.
Look at it.
It's awesome.
And it's a space frock. wonderful.
She's got this enormous ornate collar.
Why are you complaining about?
Imperiatric satay.
So, look, and she looks so glamorous.
It's wonderful.
She just has a way of looking down her nose at everybody, doesn't
she?
So my favourite thing is she gets to deliver a line about the
dilithium chamber. in this scene and it's like Gene Simmons is
talking about the dilithium chamber and stuff.
Like, Barrel Reed.
Doctor Who.
What the hell am I saying?
What am I saying?
She absolutely acquits herself.
It's wonderful Did you notice her?
you know, when she beamed in?
She's the only one that does it.
She does a little sort of jumping.
She acts like, oh, I have a beer.
Oh, this is me appearing, is it?
Okay. jumps in.
It's very funny.
She's great, though.
Like, she like, she understands the stuff.
She's clearly not technical because she's a lawyer.
Um, but she is pretty great there.
I believe some involve the articulation frame of the dilithium
chamber, she says.
She went up to Jean Wright.
Gene, what does it mean?
So good.
And she's sort of Nottingham now, yes, they're talking their title
bubble.
Right.
Okay, yes.
I think this is a really great detail as well because this is a
red herring, isn't it?
This just happens because of a manufacturing fault in the new
casing cover thing that blew off and has nothing to do with the
conspiracy.
And that's really interesting as well.
And I think there's one fantastic moment in the trial that
involves, you know, what, the backstory behind that casing.
I think that's really good.
It's a tried and tested format, this, where an explosion happens
at the start of an episode, or it was obviously before this.
Yeah, yeah.
And then it leads into an investigation and then there's massive
consequences. they obviously do it here.
They do it in improbable cause as well, which leads to, it's Garak
shop blowing up in that.
They do it in home front, which is a bomb going off on Earth, which
takes them there.
It's a really, it's a great format.
Oh, look at her.
Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it?
So she won't tell him anything.
And she is trying to put him on the back foot, I think.
Um, And look at her reaction to it.
Why does she say I particularly wanted to meet you, Mr. Worf?
Yeah, I know.
Is it because he's the only Klingon in Star Wars?
I think it might be.
Obviously, she upholds the values of Starfleet very highly, doesn't
she?
Look at her how warm she is, like the well-done lieutenant, like
her smile and everything.
And she is really manipulative because it is all about alternately
being cold and warm towards people and trying to get them on
side.
Like she very, very definitely makes Picard weight. before he's
accepted so that he will value being accepted by her.
And you see it, right?
When she goes through, what a team we're going to make.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he sort of leans back in his chair and smiles like, oh, I'm
being endorsed by Admiral Satay.
How lovely.
It's and that's just classic manipulative kind of personality
disorder behaviour.
You know, like, you identify enemies and they're the bad people
but we're the good people and you and I are a team and I'll
support you and stuff. there's something really creepy about the
way she behaves.
We like predictable behaviour as well.
We, you know what I mean?
Like, we don't like it when people bloat hot and cold.
We like being in conversations where somebody behaves in a very in
a way that we can predict. she absolutely weaponizes not doing
that.
Yeah.
She's great.
She was probably a fabulous lawyer.
So she's accompanied by 2 people.
One is a betazoid called Saban, and he is played by Bruce French
who is in literally fucking everything, including the caretaker
and insurrection.
Do you remember him in the Care Taker?
He was one of Kez's people.
Oh, okay.
Yep, okay.
He only gets one scene, I think.
He does an enterprise episode as well. which I haven't seen.
Let's not hold that against him.
I think he's really good because he's just really solid.
Like, he can't outact her and so he doesn't attempt... doesn't
even bother.
But the woman with the pads.
She does.
She's so gray.
She's basically silent for hours, isn't she?
Yeah.
Yeah, she never says anything.
And so I think you sort of think, oh, she's not being paid to say
anything.
You know, she won't get any dialogue because she's just a, you
know, like a singer.
She gets her singer when she goes to deliver the paths of Picard
on the bridge.
And see, this is so interesting, isn't it?
Like, he is saying I didn't blow up the warp core and she's saying
well, you know, why are you lying to me?
Why won't you just admit it?
Clearly you did.
See, I like this outfit.
Why are you complaining about this outfit?
This might be...
Yeah, this is funny.
This is my best fit.
This is her, she's quite scary in that outfit, doesn't she?
That's all blue.
But this guy really sells it.
He's a proper that guy.
He's been in the A-team. you know, he's been in literally
everything.
Oh, here we go.
Here's the seat.
Somebody else was involved.
You've got a bigger problem on your ship, Jean-Luc.
And just one Klingon exchange.
There's the I told you about.
Oh, no, you're the camera.
The camera soons in.
And he goes, oh my god, and looks straight at the car.
That's Jonathan.
God bless you, Jonathan.
He goes, right, Patrick, I want you to stress how serious the
situation is.
Jonathan, can I look straight at the camera?
Do it.
And look, now she's making him tea.
Like, it is just so manipulative.
I like this outfit a little bit less, and I think it's because it
has the big collar, but it doesn't have the day colletage.
It's a little bit more kind of prim, I think.
Why is she putting in that tea?
Why is that on the plane?
I don't know, sugar, who knows?
I don't know about tea.
I don't understand it.
You're not English, are you?
connoisseurs with tea.
And she is English, isn't she?
Yeah, both of them are.
Of course.
Julie, what he said?
Thank goodness you're here, Admiral Saturday.
No, we could never do it with anyone but you.
Oh, what a toady.
So now we're getting the absurd backstory scene.
Oh, I was howling.
It's okay, isn't it?
The debates that my father would make me and my brothers have
around the table and we weren't allowed to leave the table until
we're covered.
The stopwatch, which is totally normal.
So we had to be succinct.
We had to explore the issue.
Can you say that again, please?
The issue.
It's so ridiculous.
Like, it's so preposterous.
She really warms up and obviously this is kind of, uh, you know
because of her sort of weird daddy issues, but, but there's
something about how driven and insane she is, what she says
there.
That's a huge red flag.
She goes, I miss him.
He was a giant.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But also this thing, you know, I always preferred working a lot
working alone, but I think we'll be a great team, you and I, and
you just think, oh, you are really quite a creeper.
Yeah, yeah.
We're going to be a quite a team.
And you're right.
Look at his reaction.
He smirks because he's hugely excited.
Oh, he's thinking, this could, this could do my career some good
you know.
So Jadan didn't make friends easily, which is not difficult to
believe, I guess.
Poor old wolf.
Every time someone comes on, they seem to know he's been...
Yeah, he's been discommended.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
And this is really interesting as well.
Because that's what this scene is about too.
Because Sabre knows that Wharf's father has been accused that
Mogue was accused of conspiring with Romulans.
Yeah.
And look at wharf's restraint.
You know, like he's in, like, uh, Jonathan Frakes puts him in
shadow at the back of the thing before he comes forward because we
know, even though the script doesn't tell us that that's not what
happened, that Worf accepted this commendation for the sake of the
empire, and the price that he paid was admitting or kind of, you
know, pretending that his father was a trader.
There's there's something I want to talk about with war, but very
quickly.
Look how smooth.
Dr. Beverly is in the chair.
She knows she's innocent.
She's in the pavement squirming, that's all.
I just love. this woman.
So her name is Nellon, and she's got her little, when is she
gone?
She's got a little iPod touch there that she's just typing on.
Sort of like a video remote, isn't it?
Yeah, tapping into.
It's a pad.
So this holy shit, this boy is pretty.
It's such a great performance, isn't it?
It just has a constant forlorn look on his face, doesn't he?
And he looks like a good American boy.
Do you know what I mean?
Just like a good boy.
He's like 20 eight.
Yeah, he's perfectly cast.
The ear makeup doesn't survive HD very well.
But it is subtle.
It's quite subtle, isn't it?
And so when he told you, you can't really notice it too much.
I thought, except that in...
Yeah, like the way it's blended in and stuff, it looks pretty
crap.
I mean, it is supposed to be subtle because he's not a full
Romulan.
He's a full Vulcan or whatever.
And, you know, they do something.
Yeah, they do something to you sign. on his team. been too busy
doing Gene Simmons hair the whole time.
They've got no time to do this.
Look at him close-up.
It looks terrible.
Um, He's he's really cute.
And there's a scene later, which I just thought was impossibly hot
when I was younger.
Imagine having a massive, a massive secret.
You lied on your application to Starfleet and they're committing
an investigation.
You don't really know why.
And then you're brought in in front of Gene Simmons.
I mean, I start crumbling.
And and two, the, the, like...
There's no real, what's the, what's the woman's name with the
pad?
There's no reason for her to be looking at him as dismissively as
she is She's so great.
She's so funny.
And this, so Saban, who is Betazoid, recognises that he's
frightened, and of course, everyone watching also recognise that
despite not being an empath.
And the lie, see, the interesting thing about the lie is, it's so
forgivable.
It's so understandable.
You know, he lied that his grandfather, who it's not his fault
that it's his grandfather, he's got nothing to do with him.
You know.
Oh my god, did you see the way she flounced in sort of room
there?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's unrestricting a movement.
She's looking fabulous.
Why has she got that enormous zip at the front, though?
I know it's not a zip, but that's what it looks like.
I mean, she's taking off those dreadful plastic earrings she had
on earlier.
Yes, for her, for her who has been, it's been drilled into her to
uphold the values of the Federation, yeah.
So the fact that he lied, that's enough for her to think, well
that man is...
But the great thing here is, you know, she says, you haven't you
used a counsellor during interrogations, like in the opening scene
and he says, yes, I do, but she shit, and she now can tell whether
anyone's lying or not.
So I don't think it's the wrong thing.
To be honest, Admiral Satay, we write her out of some episodes.
She's so terrible.
If Counsellor Troy suggested to you that someone on this ship was
dangerous, Would you act on that?
No, she's terrible.
He never knows.
They would undoubtedly be innocent.
There's always dangerous people on the ship.
She never says anything.
She usually just says, I feel something.
It's a little bit ambiguous. holding something back.
Bless her.
Do you know, in sort of Kurtzman Trek, her empathic abilities are
so honed, aren't they?
Yeah, yeah, she's wonderful.
Yes.
So poor Simon.
But you can see that it's understandable.
He didn't do anything wrong by having a Romulan father and he was
going to suffer racism.
Uh, you know, like it was, if it was going to prevent him from
getting into Starfleet, even as a, as a, you know, crewman.
Yeah.
She, see, now she says later on, oh, no, no, no, of course, you
know, he's innocent until proven guilty.
She just said there, we will have evidence against him.
She's not working on that assumption at all.
She thinks he's guilty.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, she's decided that he's a saboteur, that it's him, because
that's what we're looking for.
If Jadan didn't do the thing.
This is how it builds.
This is how the paranoia builds.
It was just a hatch cover.
One if it's the warp core next time.
Yep, yep.
Yeah, and it's their 1st kind of confrontation and there's no
coming back from this.
Like now he's her enemy because she's a prick.
You know, like, you know, there's not going to be agreeing to
disagree or anything like that.
I think we need a few more pricks on Jens Price.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I love she's back in the dilithium chamber.
Camera down here.
I don't know why we're shooting from down here suddenly.
But we're, I think we're just on the normal engineering level, but
for some reason, we're shooting from below. you know, because
Jonathan's got his camera down there.
But yeah, we're looking at these.
They haven't given her a tetna babble this time.
She just said, what did you find?
Yeah, yeah, no, she actually asks for an explanation.
I'm out of my element commander.
Please explain to me.
Yeah.
So basically it was an accident.
It was an accident, but she won't let it go.
She doesn't believe it.
And in any case, even if it's an accident.
She still wants to investigate Simon.
And did you see, when data specifically says that he's saying the
details, the look she gives him, because it contradicts what she
wants to do.
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
Have that Android dismantled immediately.
Yeah, yeah.
And so they're very clear that this is this is all been a thing
you know, and it's and it's data and Geordie.
Like we have to believe them.
Do you look at that woman behind him?
She's so great.
She just so awesome.
She's upstage in everybody in this bloody thing.
Look at her.
That's too shot with her and Picard.
It's so funny, isn't it?
Oh, dear.
She is acting him off the screen.
It's really great.
She's not saying a word.
Every now and again, she thinks she thinks about doing her
shorthand and then she does it.
There it is.
He walks...
He looks at her and kind of goes, actually, I'm going to move over
here. walks across the room, yeah.
I'm not having it stolen by you, bitch.
All right.
He goes, I've only got Michael Dawn and this fella over here.
I'll be all right.
But don't you think that's deliberately funny?
Like, that's her.
She's the most Star Treky character here because she's got the
stupid forehead and all of that.
And like the outfit, she's wearing a sort of chuck super wipe
that's been kind of strategically cut.
And, and like, I think that that's a deliberate comedy element in
the episode and they play it that way.
I think it's really good.
That whole scene there, everybody was...
Oh, I love this when he comes in and she's opened up the hearing
to everybody.
Look at Nella.
Look at Nella standing there just looking at it. was just like
yeah, fuck you, look at this.
But did you notice what Freak steers in that scene?
He has it absolutely quiet because Picard's outside the door and
you come in and there's an arc and assault of people talking to
really stress the fact that, well, I think it's supposed to be a
very packed room.
We've got about 15 extras.
Yeah, that's all we're going to find.
Yeah, but it's a lot, you know, it is a reasonable number of
extras for a scene in Star Trek, the next generation.
It's probably not packed.
The sort of the idea is that everyone's got an opinion.
That's your baying crowd, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it just ramps up the pressure on Simon.
Poor Simon.
What a pretty boy.
Look at that office chair that very 20th century office chair he's
sitting in.
Right, it's terrible.
As a defence person.
He's terrible, isn't he?
You got to do nothing.
He got data off in measure of a man.
What do you want?
No, he does something really hot here, I think.
Not when he's going up against Admiral Satay.
Oh, Dr. Beverly, no. come on now.
Look after him.
He works for you.
Yeah, just tell a lie.
Who cares?
Oh, this stupid cow.
Don't tell her anything She's good.
There wasn't one moment in this episode where she gave her robotic
delivery, Dr. Beverly. was quite impressed.
Yeah, yeah, this.
If he's so innocent, why do you hesitate to give the name to
Picard?
Because actually, let's stop this now.
That's insane, you know, like, like, it's very clear to Picard
where this is going.
You know, she's mental.
It's gone in, it's gone out of control.
I love how Sassay deploys the people that work for her.
She just gave me a little knob then right off you go.
Yeah, yeah.
Like she's had, she's got this whole thing just structured.
He looks so concerned, doesn't he, that pretty little boy.
That's so cute.
And I remember the 1st time I watched this and I thought, well
he's innocent.
Look at him.
And then when they dropped the information about the Romans, oh
fuck.
Like, I know that's not his fault who his dad is.
But what about this?
I think this moment is great.
When Saban says there's evidence that it was caused by a
corrosives chemical from Sick Bay, and we think that you did it.
And the only reason he's saying that is to put him under
pressure.
And then he says, how can we believe someone who we know to be a
liar?
And it's just like you.
You are the liar.
You said that just to make him anxious. you know, and to prejudice
the inquiry.
He's a lawyer.
I mean, this is what I do.
But he's lying, you know, like, and he's Starfleet.
We don't lie if you remember.
So well, he's he's selling him a lie. getting him to tell the
truth.
Oh, this isn't this hot?
Look at this.
Oh, Riker.
Right, it like kind of whispers in his ear and puts his hand on
his shoulder and tells him don't answer the question.
And then, yeah, I know, but then by saying that it just makes you
look more guilty.
They've put him in a corner, haven't they?
Where it just looks like he's hiding things now.
But he is, and he shouldn't have to answer the question because
he's not on trial and that's the Fifth Amendment.
That's the 7th guarantee or whatever it is where you don't have to
incriminate yourself in a trial.
If you're not the one in, you know, like he doesn't have to say
that.
This is the thing about wharf.
I wanted to talk about where he's sending out his security team
and he looks like he's enjoying.
He's getting the chance to go around, interrogate people
investigate things.
And there's a very telling shot where Picard's one side of the
table and wharfs the other.
They're sort of the power positions around the long table.
And he watch the camera as it's down on wharf.
And then wharf does relax and go, you know, what's wrong, sir?
Or something like that.
But I think Patrick Stewart plays the armies superbly.
Yeah.
Despite some sledgehammer dialogue.
He gets later on in the episode.
These 2 shots, like, yeah, they look...
Yeah.
He's good, isn't he?
Like Frakes is good immediately.
Like from his 1st episode.
His 1st episode is the offspring, which he's barely in so that he
can just direct it.
And it's immediately well directed, like just well done.
And this, you know, this is a kind of boring scene.
Like, this is explaining what the title means.
And, you know, um, But, look at Worf, but we know there is a
trace.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Do we?
And that's it.
You are right.
Wharf is wrong in TMG.
Somebody's wrong in TNG.
Like if there's a disagreement, he's wrong.
Because he's going...
Well, look, he told a lie.
So obviously, you know, he's guilty of terrorism.
What?
Like, how did he get there?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
It's so good, isn't it?
Because the other thing that he does, like here, it's just static
cameras, but we keep going closer and closer on the 2 of them, as
you know, the thing goes as a thing progresses, we're quite close
on both of them.
It was a medium close-up on them at the beginning of the scene.
And it's just, it's just Jonathan saying, I'll get out of your way
and you both do some acting.
Don't you think?
Oh, that's so annoying.
He has such a brilliant line there where he goes, yeah.
That's how it starts.
Yeah, yeah.
That's enough.
And then she follows her up with the road from suspicion to
rampant paranoia.
No, we don't need that.
Yeah, we don't need that.
Worf line is so telling where he goes, sir, the Federation does
have enemies.
Yeah.
That paranoia is up and up and up.
Oh, this.
It's so sad as well.
Even the way he drinks his teeth.
I know.
It's like a kicked puppy, isn't he?
Oh here we go.
Here's here's Cyrus. all my life I wanted to join Starfleet.
But I think this is really good because normally we just see
Starfleet and it's the best of the best and stuff.
And he's just some dumb kid and he didn't, he couldn't wait.
He didn't want to do a degree.
He didn't want to go to Starfleet Academy.
They probably would have sniffed him out then, wouldn't they?
Oh, oh, maybe, but that's not what he says.
Like, and I think there's no reason not to believe him at this
point.
Do you know what I mean?
He's not being interrogated by Saban or Satee.
And it...
Oh, boy.
The elm tree.
I've sat under that tree many times, you know.
It was a big ugly tree, wasn't it?
But I think what's cute about it is that, like, this is, like, he's
enthusiastic.
Like he's he's someone that you would want.
You know, he wants to be here.
Like, and it is a cheesy scene and he, you know, he sort of
becomes a bit more animated, I think, during the course of it.
But there's a real loss, you know, like this poor kid, you know, he
achieved his, you know, doesn't he say the day I came aboard
Enterprise, you know, was the greatest day of my life?
And that's it.
Now the ecos is it.
That's it.
My career is finished.
And he is guilty though, isn't he?
It doesn't matter.
He guilty.
You know, he lied on his application.
And like Picard doesn't say it'll be all right.
You know, like because it won't be.
Because obviously shit, I'm pulling the strings, you know, when
Bashir was revealed as being a genetically engineered.
Yeah, we've just pulled a few streams.
He's in the opening credits, though.
They would have had to redo this.
Oh, Admiral Suttay is in full swing now.
Marching down the corridor.
Giving it instructions to Nella, who's tiding away.
Picard goes in private and then Nella goes, oh, all right, so you
stay here, darling.
You stay here.
The look, the look and the car gives her.
She gets annoyed.
And now she's really shitty.
She's left behind in the scene just looking really annoying to
being left down.
I love that Picard calls her out here, though.
Yeah, you know it.
There were no volatile chemicals.
You boxed him into a corner.
You're hounding an innocent man.
Yeah, it was a tactic away of applying pressure.
It's just like, well, how is that acceptable?
Like, you want to find out the truth?
What are you doing?
The very thing.
You're accusing him.
That's right.
He lied on his application.
Look who lied in court, you know, saving lied in court.
Oh, boy, she's utterly convinced, isn't she?
Yeah, yeah.
And because she's a nutcase, she absolutely dismisses the idea
that Picant could just sit down with him and ask him what happened
like a normal person and he would tell the truth.
I love a woman in power.
I'll tell him, Picard, how can you be so utterly naive, Captain.
She's great.
And this is, I have no home.
I have no friends.
Really?
You?
No friends.
That's a...
I have a purpose.
My father taught me from the time I was a little girl clutching my
blanket that the United Federation Planets is the most remarkable
institution ever.
Oh, daddy issues.
Yeah, well, these are cause it's daddy issues.
But also, you know, this is what Deep Says 9 does.
Like, I love the idea that the United Federation of Planets is the
greatest institution ever conceived.
You know, like, and that's how I want to feel about it.
But if this is what happens, do you know what I mean?
The moment that a casing blows open.
Something's gone horribly wrong.
And obviously, you know, Deep Sace 9 is investigating the
Federation from the left, you know, because it's America.
Yeah.
It's wonderful.
He stands up to her and goes, this is going to stop.
And she says, I'm sorry to tell you this, Captain.
But I've already gone over your head and softly knows everything.
It's great isn't it?
She's really, really good.
It's so terrifying, isn't it?
Like, have you ever worked with people in positions of power, that
abuse those positions of power to hurt people.
It is really, really scary.
And the fact that, honestly, she plays it so well.
Yeah, yeah, she's really good, isn't she?
Utterly cold.
I report to Starfleet command directly.
I do not need your permission or approval for my decisions.
So great.
And then she then she just flounces out the room.
She smiles at him and flounces out.
And this at the doorway, I think, is great.
And I love his speech.
I'll stop you.
It's unethical.
It's immoral.
I'll stop you.
I'll fight it he says.
I think that's a really well written line too.
Ah, and look, we're looking just slightly up at her in that shot
as well.
She's looking down at the ca- you know, she's looking down over
us.
Now, what's the woman's name with a pad again?
Nellon.
What Nellon?
Nellon.
Yeah.
Watch now how she comes in, right?
She comes out Otoberlift.
And instead of just going round this way.
No, no, she walks the whole bridge around Pass Riker.
Look, watch her.
She could have gone the other way.
She'd have been there a long quicker, no.
We have to know she's coming.
I'm taking the whole bridge in.
And say she's got terrifying teeth and she's like she's got a
voice, she can talk and she's scary and she gives him her iPod
touch there.
Um, and he's kind of like, really, she can talk.
I didn't think she was being paid to talk.
Like, that's the end of the end.
She's summoning me.
Me?
What the hell was she raked up on me?
Oh, God.
So he's about to find out.
I'm driving on an Excelsior class starship.
I just thought, I don't think he gets any lives. sits there and
watch his proceedings.
Yeah, yeah, he does.
But he does get to give her a look and it's very clear what he
thinks about how mad she is.
Nathan, where is this set?
I don't know if we ever go here ever again.
It's the accusing parlour, it's called.
Does every galaxy class ship have one?
No, it's right.
That's for a Futurama.
They have the accusing parlour.
You know, when they're sort of designing the things.
You haven't put the accusing parlour in you.
Remember how many trials we have, all right?
And like the opening statement thing is just you can't have an
opening statement.
He goes, yes, I can. and this is the law.
It's just like she doesn't even give a shit what the law is.
You know, she knows that he has the right to an opening statement
but she's going to try and bullying him, bullying him into not
having it.
But what Frank Star's hair is.
He's got the camera going around the room, right?
As if this is a great Captain Picard sum up speech of, this is how
I'm going to bring all this bullshit to an end.
And it doesn't.
And it feels like we, you know, like injustice or several episodes
that we've done and then she pulls the rug.
Bring it up, Wall 359.
Yep, it's great.
It is good, isn't it?
You're right.
He, like, he, he goes.
It's a tracking cross a tracking shot across and then it slowly
moves into him and it's a great speech and the way he delivers it
would have been so TNG to have ended it.
Instead, yeah.
I brought out better men than you, Picard.
I think it's a really well to live in speech too, because he's
kind of a bit relaxed.
Do you know what I mean?
Like he's not, he's just talking normally.
He's not or rating or anything like that.
Like, and he's thinking, you know, like he pauses to think all the
time.
I think it's good.
Imagine Shatner given this speech.
I need a tornish show off by now.
Quick shot of the admiral.
Don't talk.
You're not being paid for it, all right?
Yeah, yep, yep.
Yeah.
I love her line here and her delivery is so great.
And so she's talking about the prime directive and she goes, you
know that you violate it 9 times.
Would you be surprised?
Would you be surprised to learn?
I can tell you, it's a prize of hell. surprised about hell out of
me.
It's so funny.
And she delivers it because everything has been so prim and proper
and she just says it's surprised the hell out of me in a really
kind of colloquial way.
She's wonderful.
She's great.
I hope you notice her body language, but throughout the rest of
the episode, during the trial scene, she's been sitting up.
Right now, she is really relaxed in a power position.
She's got it.
Her arm's sort of hanging loose, jackers in her eyes. she's got
all the right words to say.
So now we've got a reference to Data's day.
Which was a previous time.
Yeah.
So it's a previous time where what we thought was a Vulcan
ambassador actually turned out to be a Romulan, so it's another
occasion where someone of Romulan has passed themselves off as a
Vulcan.
Great, isn't it?
The way they, you know, and how there's probably a ton of episodes
where they could pull out, you know, things that he's done. that
you could question.
Certainly one of those 9 has to have been justice, remember?
But she's narrating, you know, that final act of data's day.
And that's the plot that happens in the background that we don't
get to properly see because we're mostly concentrating on Keiko
and Miles's wedding, remember?
And here's where she loses wharf, isn't it?
Yeah, oh, yeah, Warf's waiting a bit now, isn't he?
Oh, shit.
He stands up to her and says, I don't believe you anymore.
Oh, yeah. and then he suddenly gets accused.
And now it's about him.
Now it becomes about warf.
Why do you have wharf on board?
Fingers are pointing in every direction.
But if you dare to stand up to her, you're next, is the...
Could they have just found something on Dr. Beverly?
I would have loved to seen her squirm for a little bit.
It would be great.
She would have killed it.
Captain, isn't it true that you brought in the most useless
betasoids on the entire planet?
Oh, he must have been awful for you. actually becoming one of
them.
But his response where it's just like, this is fucking bullshit
and how dare you go there?
Do you know what I mean?
Like his initial reaction is really good.
Yeah, performance hit is bang on.
Because, like, I'm not hearing her performance yet, and her body
language is all sympathy, but I know her, the words coming out of
her mouth are all accusatory.
Yeah, yeah, and here she goes.
I question your loyalty.
Watch her face as he starts quoting this.
It's so good.
And it's just like, all right, fuck you.
Here's what I'm going to do, miss daddy issues.
I'm going to absolutely ruin your career now.
So you just sit there while I deliver this speech.
And he's not looking at her and he's not kind of grandstanding or
anything like that.
She sort of comes forward and sort of starts standing up.
She's right into counts.
She is waiting to bounce.
But she's shaking.
You know, like she's not in control anymore.
Here we go.
How dare you?
You who consult with Romulans.
So great.
It's so good.
It's tearing up.
It's traitorous arguments.
It is an offence to hear those words.
Oh, she's wonderful.
It was so great.
So I look...
And as Simon, Simon was there watching a loose as shit.
You dirty his name when you speak it.
He loves that.
Oh, she has got some serious daddy issues, isn't she?
And look at like Admiral Henry's kind of going, what the fuck is
that?
Yeah, okay, see ya.
I'm out.
That's great.
And he walks behind her, doesn't he?
You know, he walks in front of the camera and just leaves.
Not a word, though.
Not say anything. and we know, do you know what I mean?
That's it and she knows.
And then what Jonathan does, look at the shaking...
She sits down broken.
She knows her career is over now because of how she's behaved and
everybody leaves the room around her.
But also the camera pulls back so she gets smaller and smaller and
smaller. the fuck, didn't they end the episode here?
Yeah, yeah.
It's perfect.
It's a perfect shot coming away from her.
Look how small she is compared to Saban in that 2 shot as well.
Like he dwarfs her.
Um, uh, and then this is the final shot.
She's not looking at anyone.
Everyone gets up and leaves the room, and the camera pulls back
and goes up, so she's just shrinking before her, before her eyes
and the last person leaves is Nella, who just kind of goes, yeah
sorry, love, you're fine.
See ya.
Don't worry.
There's plenty of psychotic admirals I could be taking notes for.
Yeah, but then we have to have this scene.
It's kind of like, well, Captain Picard. just one thing I don't
understand.
Oh, I like the point of what he's saying, but we've made the
point.
Yeah, that was what the episode was about.
I didn't just watch that episode.
We didn't need the moral.
We did perhaps need to reconcile Worf and Picard after their
conflict before, but we did have Worf stand up for him in the
trial and that would experience what it was like to be accused.
There's no better shot than her shrinking into the screen.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
To end the episode on.
But they never do that in Star Trek, the Next Generation. because
it is very kind of, you know, there are formal rules about how an
episode is constructed and it very rarely ends without a scene.
Torture of heretics, burning of witches. in the blink of an eye
Nathan. suddenly it threatens to start all over again.
I mean, that's when the climate's right.
Yeah, it's beautiful.
And you know what?
Like, I like what he's saying.
I don't really.
I think the dialogue is a bit forced, but I do the point that he's
making.
It's a good point to make.
Yes, when the circumstances are right.
There will always be, you know, admiral satays there waiting to
point the finger and take advantage of it.
But yes, we have just seen that for 40 minutes.
Yeah.
And also this, like, again, because the episode has nothing to say
about what went on here or how it happens or what features of the
society allow this sort of behaviour to flourish.
Do you know what I mean?
There's nothing here.
There's no context.
And so the episode doesn't have anything to say.
That's a shame, isn't it?
I did really feel that this time.
Do you know, he almost looks straight out the camera then and when
you know, but people like her will always be with us.
Keep on your guard or the Star Trek the next generation.
Yeah, I mean, that final scene is quite good with the 2 of them
walking off, and it's very rare for us to see a shot, and trust me
I've looked of just the sets without anyone in it, and so they
just get to walk out of shot.
From a distance, the high shot.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, I think, you know, Jonathan is a good director already.
And, you know, it's no surprise that he's still going strong doing
Star Trek.
Like you said they're about the context.
If they didn't have an actress as strong as Gene Simmons in that
central role, just making that power position so frightening, I
think that would really, really affect this episode.
Yeah, but because she's so compelling to watch.
Yeah, yeah.
It kind of doesn't matter, you know?
No, no.
And like, I like that genre of Star Trek, the Next Generation
episode the one where there's a guy and he or she comes in and
they're the focus of the episode.
We just get a big guest starring and concentrate on them.
I think that's a thing that works really well.
And maybe this is the best one of those because she's so
magnificent.
I mean, honestly, Admiral Nachayev is only a few bits removed from
Admiral, I say, isn't she?
Given the right circumstances.
I mean, I do wonder what they go through when they go from, what
is it, captain to Admiral?
Is it Captain to Admiral?
Yeah, yeah, they turn evil.
Generally speaking, when we meet these people, they all are
fucking bonkers.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Mariner's dad is normal.
He's quite okay.
And Barry, despite being a shitty actor, is Barry?
Oh, Harry Jenner.
He's like, yeah, he's like sort of the daddy.
Yeah.
It's sweet.
We like him, you know.
You can imagine him smoking a pipe and drinking a beer.
And Admiral Paris obviously is. a weirdo too.
So yeah, yeah.
Jesus Christ, this is a great year of Star Trek generation series
4.
Now, there are some weak spots that like devil's due.
I know what you're going to say.
No, no, no.
That's kind of weeks, but that's a glorious episode.
Another great trial episode, too, with an impressive final scene.
I love that episode so much.
It's one of my favourites.
I can't wait till we do it.
I think I think 5 is where things start to get a little, there's
still great stuff in five, but the, the, it gets a bit bland
though, and they get a bit complacent at times, but 3 and four.
Everything we've done in 3 and four.
Yeah.
Good grief.
I mean, think of some of the season one episodes we've watched.
How did they get from there to here in 2 years?
It's amazing.
Oh, that's right.
Michael Pillar.
But, you know, let's props to Jerry Taylor too, who knew that it
was all about the characters here and absolutely focussed on
them.
It wasn't just the trial.
It was Simon, it was her, and it was Saban, and it was Worf being
deceived, and all of that sort of stuff.
And I think that's a pretty good episode.
And it's got to be an early episode for her and she really killed
it, I think.
And of course, props to Gene Simmons, who walked into this sort of
we're not going about one a month show.
Spouting Techna Battle and delivering one of the most memorable
come down scenes ever.
I mean, I've got to say, I did come into this episode just
watching it thinking, you know, maybe I'm really going to hate
this and I'll get a chance to say, you know, I've brought down
better episodes than you, the drumhead.
But unfortunately, I've had to say that in jest.
It is wonderful.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to
work out where we're going next.
We've long been promising, I think, an episode of Star Trek, the
original series.
It's been a while since we did one, and so that's what's on the
menu for next week.
It's my turn to choose.
Last time, Joe, you made the excellent choice of the drumhead.
And so I'm going to see how I go with the original series.
I'm going to apologise, like, because obviously, I'm the reason
why we keep going back to 90s trek, but, yeah, just to explain
that we did learning curve and the neutral zone on the bout.
So I obviously I needed some kind of a reminder as to why 90s trek
was worth watching for all of those years.
Then we did, you are quarterly invited, countdown, and the
drumhead back to back.
So by faith is restored, let's go to the original series.
All right, that's a brilliant plan.
Okay.
I will press the button in that case.
Your random Star Trek, the original series episode is errand of
mercy, season one, episode 26.
I don't know this one at all, but I do know that it's terribly
famous and it's, um, it does have one of the Klingons in it.
One of the sort of 3 main Klingons who later turn up in Deep Space
9.
This time it's core and we're heading to the planet Organia, the
Treaty of Organia.
So it's a bit of a big one, a famous one, but I don't know it very
well.
I don't know it either.
And we did press the button last time I'd do the 1st one.
Press it again.
Okay, all right.
Plus, you know, Klingon episodes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All right.
Okay I think this is a terribly boring one.
It's Star Trek, the original series, season two, episode two, who
mourns for Adonise.
Oh, what's that about?
It's a giant god is Apollo, I think.
Oh, yeah, the giant... who kind of monsters everyone and scares
the hell out of everyone.
Oh, I mean, that could be fun, but...
It could be fun.
Let's try another one I think we should we should try and get
something really juicy, you know, going back to TOS.
All right.
Okay, it's season three, episode 12, the empath.
I don't know any of these episodes.
Am I even a Star Trek fan?
Well, I have seen who mourns for Adonise, to be fair. and it's a
bit boring.
Listen to this.
Listen to how mid this sounds, attempting to determine the
whereabouts of omitting research colony.
Kirk Spock and McCoy, of course, suddenly find themselves the
pawns in a deadly alien experiment.
See, the trouble is that I could theorise about what this is going
to be like, and given that it's in series 3.
It might be just one of the ones where we stand around while
powerful aliens kind of torment everyone until we get sick of it
and then leave.
I mean, Jamma gives us 3.5 stars out of four.
And he's very hard on season three. he?
Yeah. starts it by saying a little money can go a long way.
Right.
And it probably did cost a little money.
Yes.
I don't know it at all.
I'm prepared to give it a go. do you think?
I think we should.
I think let's go in completely blind with 0 expectations.
All right, no worries.
The only expectation we'll have is that Jamma really liked it, so
we probably won't.
Probably be terrible.
So the thing is, the thing that I can't help thinking is there are
lots of people listening to us right now going, why the hell do
you have a Star Trek podcast if you don't know the very basics of
what happens in the empath?
And maybe they're kind of shaking their heads going, 0 my god
those poor bastards they don't know what they're in for.
So, yeah.
Anyway, we'll see what happens.
Yeah, let's give it a go. lets give it a go.
Okay.
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley, where online at untitled Star Trek Project
com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social
media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 29th of April 2025 and released
on the 2nd of May.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek, the original series, The
Empath.
Are you watching Andor?
Nah.
Did you watch it at all?
No, I haven't seen any of it.
Are you interested?
I probably will get round to it because I've sort of been
exploring some of that stuff, but see, like you've watched...
We're doing a layer one and you've watched the one and the stuff
haven't you?
We watched other ones.
Well, we got halfway through.
We got halfway through Obi-Wan.
And then we were enjoying it, but we just didn't watch anymore
because other things, like several things came up.
Yeah, yeah.
Because like I've just watched the 1st 3 episodes of series 2 and
I loved series one.
Like, I think, like, I think it's the best Star Wars, you know, and
series one has an attack on a like the rebel attack on a
Federation, a Federation.
It's not Star Trek.
It's not Blake 7.
As a rebel attack on an imperial base, but the base is basically a
dam across a valley.
So it's a real place.
It's not a space thing.
And there's something about, there's something about just the
reality of it.
It's really real.
It's like Correscent, you know, some of the characters live on
Correscent, and Correscent looks like it's sort of Art Deco
skyscrapers made of concrete.
Like they feel real.
And like the main characters include, you know, you saw Rogue one
didn't you, or did you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, you know, Mon Motha in Rogue one, that, you know, who's
obviously the woman who says many Bothans died to give us this
information in, in, in Return of the Jedi?
She is a major character in this and she's a senator and she's
funnelling money here to different places to kind of fund the
development of the rebellion.
It's sort of set 5 years before the Battle of Yavin.
And she is fucking great.
She's so good.
She's like the best thing about it.
And then there's, then there's a kind of subplot with people who
work for the Empire's intelligence agency, and there's a woman
there called Dedra, something or other, like Deirdre.
Uh, and she's like absolutely brutal and fabulous, and she has
this barn and sort of blonde hair and things.
And like there's the, all of these sort of real kind of, it's got
real politics and stuff happening in it. and it, it, it, like, it's
The 2nd series is good?
The 2nd series is really great.
So they dropped 3 episodes at a time.
And like the worlds that are creator really real, like they feel
really good.
There's a planet called ferrics, which is all made of bricks and
there's mining and stuff there and the buildings are really great
and you get a real sense of it.
And Fiona Shaw, you know, Fiona Shaw.
She's an English Irish actor, I think.
She's fucking incredible and she plays like Cassian's mother and
she's amazing and and like there's all this music, like the music
is incredible.
The whole production is really great. and I don't give a shit. much
better than all the others then.
Because, you know, like the others, you sort of don't...
You can take or leave.
Yeah.
I don't really give a shit about that.
I like the Mandalorian, like the beginning of the Mandalorian
because it was really light on kind of law.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like it wasn't, and then they started to fill it with characters
from the clone Wars, and I stopped giving a shit, you know, like, I
don't, well, like whatever.
Um, and but this...
Like, no, I wasn't that impressed by Cassian Andor in Rogue One
you know, like he just, I don't care, like whatever.
He didn't seem very interesting.
But this is good.
It's by the people who wrote Rogue One, but it's like got an
expanded canvas and it's properly political and properly kind of
grown up and it just looks incredible.
It looks amazingly great.
I did not wrote one a lot.
I thought that was the best of those...
Yeah, I mean, it didn't do it for me just because I just sort of
thought there's a lot of plugging fucking wires in and why can't
you all just get dropbox.
You know what I mean?
Like here on the planet Scariff plugging in wires while under fire
and stuff.
Um, and, you know, like there's a thing where it's just like, oh
we're going to kill a major characters that's so edgy and it's
like, oh, okay, right, whatever.
But this is really properly good.
It's absolutely worth it.
It's one of my favourite things.
And I was so excited it came back and I just watched all 3 of the
episodes that dropped in one go and really, really enjoyed it.
We're, um, we're, literally halfway through the run of Jesus
Worcester at the moment.
I really want you to watch Jason Woolstar. you'll love it Oh, I so
fun.
I can't remember Latara.
I laughed out loud so much at TV in ages.
That, that crazy fast that they do is just, and, uh, Hugh Laurie
as...
It's perfect.
So I'd read Jeeves and Worcester stories and there'd be like
Rumpole stories or Sherlock Holmes stories or something like
that.
Do you know what I mean?
Where there's a kind of genre and that happens over and over again
and the expected things happen and there are lots and lots of
them.
And there'll be a book which has a bunch of them in it, and
they'll be kind of loosely related to one another, and almost all
of them involve Jeeves giving him some advice, him ignoring the
advice and getting into trouble.
And then Jeeves, saving the trouble by humiliating him, though, in
the process.
Like, it's by in some way humiliating him.
And I just think that, like, they're really funny.
And the, the, the language of the books that, like, is really
funny as well.
The guy was, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But they've put money into it as well.
So they've made it like there's a 2 par that's sitting in the
house of Downton Abbey.
It looks like a bloody feature film.
It looks gorgeous.
Even now.
And like at the start of series three, I thought, oh, fuck, they've
gone off the boil because they go across to New York. for 3
episodes, but it's New York as filmed in London.
I'm so trying desperately hard to convince you that it's New York
but there's no long shots of New York, you know?
And the, even though the comedy was already fairly broad at times
it just went into like slapstick.
And it had not, you know, Aunt Agatha was propelled across a
theatre by a fire hydrant and things like this.
And I'm going, what's happening?
it's just absurd And then halfway through that series.
I obviously decided, oh, this ain't working out.
Let's go back to England. is where we do our best work.
And they hit with, and it's from one of the books.
The best.
Oh, man, it's literally um, Worcester and one of his friends.
I forget one of his crazy friends.
And they're both playing each other in a country house with 5
crazy old aunts living there, all played by brilliant, all English
character actresses, and Chloe Annette, who is supposed to be a
romancing Worcester, but because Worcester is being is playing
somebody else.
The whole thing.
It was just mental and it was so perfectly plotted.
And you were just waiting for the inevitable throughout the whole
episode where the art was going to turn up and blow everything.
It was sublimely good.
And clearly...
Oh, hilariously.
Oh, she got good.
She plays this very ice cold, you know, I will never marry him.
But you've got um, not Sandra Dickinson.
Peter Davidson's 2nd wife.
Oh, okay. as Madeline.
You know, the blonde one with the with the lip.
Mercy, he's just he's so hopelessly in love with me.
I can't know where she's jumped.
He's in her house and he's trying to. trying to steal a letter
that says he wants to marry her before she reads it and leaves
behind the sofa and she thinks he's a robber and she's literally
got this massive fucking pistol and she...
Oh, it's just wonderful.
Man, they don't make TV like that anymore.
It's good fun.
Good fun.
I reckon that'll do.
I'll tell you.
Oh, we still doing the taggle.
Oh yeah, of course.
Oh, there you go.
We've gone We've gone from...
Star Wars to James and Wooster. perfect.
There we go.