WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-01 at 20:00:58 1 00:00:21.899 --> 00:00:24.539 Hey, Joe. Hi. 2 00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:28.739 I've got a question for you. before we start anything. 3 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:29.100 Yeah. 4 00:00:29.160 --> 00:00:32.100 Why are we watching an 8 minute excerpt today? 5 00:00:32.579 --> 00:00:36.000 I think it's actually shorter than that because the credits are 6 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:36.420 quite long. 7 00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:41.520 I think probably it's something like 6.5 minutes and then... 8 00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:43.320 It shall be our shortest episode here. 9 00:00:44.100 --> 00:00:49.079 So I think, well, look, I don't believe in Canon, but this is 10 00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:49.920 Canon, right? 11 00:00:49.979 --> 00:00:52.200 It's a Star Trek series. 12 00:00:52.619 --> 00:00:58.560 Elements of short treks have then made their way into discovery. 13 00:00:58.679 --> 00:01:05.700 And I think that this gives some really valuable background on 14 00:01:05.700 --> 00:01:09.180 Picard and on Kurtzman Trek as a whole. 15 00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:10.680 I should say what it is. 16 00:01:10.739 --> 00:01:18.299 It's children of Mars, which is the most recent episode of short 17 00:01:18.299 --> 00:01:21.659 treks to be shown as we record. 18 00:01:21.719 --> 00:01:23.159 It's at the end of series two. 19 00:01:23.219 --> 00:01:27.000 In fact, it doesn't make its way into the series 2 DVD set. 20 00:01:27.060 --> 00:01:34.439 It's part of the Picard set and it's screened on CBS all access on 21 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:36.840 the ninth of January 2020. 22 00:01:37.019 --> 00:01:39.120 So it's the 10th episode. 23 00:01:39.239 --> 00:01:43.859 I mean, I've got 2 things to say about what you just said there 24 00:01:43.859 --> 00:01:48.599 and one is, is the canon debate a big thing in the Trek universe? 25 00:01:48.659 --> 00:01:49.620 Is that enough? 26 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:53.340 Is it a big thing in every franchise and every fandom? 27 00:01:53.819 --> 00:01:58.319 I think Star Trek has it worse than just about any other fandom. 28 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:00.359 Sure, it's all canon. 29 00:02:00.420 --> 00:02:02.400 Well, yeah, I think so. 30 00:02:02.700 --> 00:02:10.020 And the fact that elements of the animated series, which is now 31 00:02:10.020 --> 00:02:14.580 the only one that we haven't done an episode of on the podcast. 32 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:18.479 It's like it's like the ugly child of Star Trek project. 33 00:02:18.539 --> 00:02:19.379 That's right. 34 00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:23.879 It, you know, elements of that find their way into lower decks and 35 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:24.960 other things. 36 00:02:25.020 --> 00:02:27.300 So we have to say that's canon. 37 00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:30.300 But one of the things that I think, I mean, I'm talking about 38 00:02:30.300 --> 00:02:33.419 everything, everything that's kind of televisual is surely 39 00:02:33.419 --> 00:02:34.020 Canada. 40 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:37.259 I'm not talking about, you know, all the novels, the Dominion War 41 00:02:37.259 --> 00:02:41.460 novels and those dreadful TNG novels, contagion and all that that 42 00:02:41.460 --> 00:02:42.719 I read when I was a nipper. 43 00:02:42.780 --> 00:02:46.379 But like everything that's committed to film is surely part of the 44 00:02:46.379 --> 00:02:47.099 trick verse. 45 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:51.719 Yeah, but I have a problem with the idea of what canon is because 46 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:55.800 obviously it's a way of distinguishing the stories that really 47 00:02:55.800 --> 00:02:59.939 happened from ones that didn't happen and like that's all 48 00:02:59.939 --> 00:03:00.539 nonsense. 49 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:01.139 None of it happened. 50 00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:01.800 It's all made up. 51 00:03:01.860 --> 00:03:03.479 And so... 52 00:03:03.539 --> 00:03:04.680 Yeah, so that's true. 53 00:03:04.740 --> 00:03:06.960 In fact, it's only when you actually point that out, it's how 54 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:07.439 ridiculous. 55 00:03:07.500 --> 00:03:09.479 Arguing about cannon, it really is. 56 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:10.439 Yeah. 57 00:03:10.500 --> 00:03:16.620 Yeah, I think what I think is there is a kind of shared experience 58 00:03:16.620 --> 00:03:20.759 of watching Star Trek over the years, and I think that that's what 59 00:03:20.759 --> 00:03:25.259 the show refers to from time to time. 60 00:03:25.319 --> 00:03:30.719 And so, All the time we get these, you know, kind of back 61 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:34.080 references to things, whether they're throwaway lines or whatever 62 00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:38.099 that add a kind of deeper level of meaning to things. 63 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:41.280 And I think that that is something that Kurtzman Trek does quite a 64 00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:45.120 lot in a way that I don't think spoils it for people who don't 65 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:46.740 know that stuff. 66 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:51.180 Okay, spoils it for people that don't know their stuff. 67 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:54.719 I have a bit of an issue with these short tracks. 68 00:03:54.780 --> 00:04:00.300 And it's the same issue that I have with the DVD extra sequences 69 00:04:00.300 --> 00:04:01.979 they filmed for Doctor Who. 70 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:05.759 And that is, like, I've watched this with you, children of Mars. 71 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:09.360 This absolutely should have been part of an episode, I think. 72 00:04:09.419 --> 00:04:12.780 In fact, I think this probably could have been the pre-title 73 00:04:12.780 --> 00:04:14.879 sequence of the 1st episode of Picard. 74 00:04:14.939 --> 00:04:19.800 Yeah, I mean, the material that we get here is kind of filled in 75 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:24.240 in Picard and Picard does do flashbacks at the beginning of each 76 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:24.660 episode. 77 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:25.259 Remember that? 78 00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:26.819 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 79 00:04:26.879 --> 00:04:30.300 And they've got the flashback in the 2nd episode, so the attack on 80 00:04:30.300 --> 00:04:33.899 the utopia Polacia. is one of the most gripping sequences I've 81 00:04:33.899 --> 00:04:35.040 ever seen in Star Trek. 82 00:04:35.100 --> 00:04:39.660 But my point is, is like this was released as a separate DVD, short 83 00:04:39.660 --> 00:04:44.399 trek. so as a thing of its own, and it was put on TV, separate 84 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:45.420 from the episodes as well. 85 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.779 So this is like a, it is technically like a DVD extra. 86 00:04:48.839 --> 00:04:52.860 Yeah, it's like a teaser for the show, isn't it? 87 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:57.779 But I think it does a very good job of explaining what's at stake 88 00:04:57.779 --> 00:04:59.639 in Pecan. 89 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:00.600 Yeah. 90 00:05:00.660 --> 00:05:04.980 But these aren't like the Doctor Who ones, which were like just 91 00:05:04.980 --> 00:05:06.959 you know, quick scenes filmed in the Tardis. 92 00:05:07.019 --> 00:05:08.879 This is a piece of work. 93 00:05:08.939 --> 00:05:11.699 This is a piece of drama in its own right. 94 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:12.839 And I think... 95 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:15.060 If I move this, if you want. 96 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:20.399 I just genuinely think something as good as this, which is, you 97 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:24.899 know, I would say as good as the best episodes of season one. 98 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:29.040 Probably should have been part of the actual series rather than 99 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:31.560 the bonus to watch kind of on the side. 100 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:35.279 Yeah, I mean, it was available to anyone who was able to watch 101 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:38.939 Picard in America because it's on CBS All Access, which is now 102 00:05:38.939 --> 00:05:41.220 Paramount Plus in the US. 103 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:45.660 And so it sort of does have the status of a released episode. 104 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:50.939 And one of the things that short treks does, it does explore the 105 00:05:50.939 --> 00:05:54.540 spaces around the episodes in an interesting way. 106 00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:57.660 And it's super experimental. 107 00:05:57.720 --> 00:06:02.160 So 2 of them are animated in quite different styles, with quite 108 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:03.660 different sort of tones. 109 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:09.360 There's one episode called The Trouble with Edward, which is an 110 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:12.540 absolute out and out comedy episode. 111 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:16.379 You say that was the 1st time you fought Star Trek was genuinely 112 00:06:16.379 --> 00:06:16.620 funny. 113 00:06:16.680 --> 00:06:20.459 Well, you know, Lower Decks is genuinely funny, but this is the 114 00:06:20.459 --> 00:06:22.379 1st time live action Star Trek. 115 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:23.939 You never seen Little Green Men? 116 00:06:24.300 --> 00:06:27.420 Yeah, that is funny, but... 117 00:06:27.660 --> 00:06:32.879 Yeah, and Deep Space 9 does do comedy episodes, to be fair, but 118 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:39.240 this is properly silly, wonderful comedy. and anyone who, it's 119 00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:39.959 really, really good. 120 00:06:40.019 --> 00:06:40.980 You really must watch it. 121 00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:47.100 It stars the guy, John Benjamin, who plays Archer and Bob 122 00:06:47.100 --> 00:06:47.579 Belcher. 123 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:49.319 Oh, he's got Bob. 124 00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:51.300 He's got a lovely voice, hasn't he? 125 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:52.019 He really does. 126 00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:53.339 He's so funny in it. 127 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:54.839 He's just unbelievably great. 128 00:06:54.899 --> 00:06:56.939 I get what they're doing here though. 129 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:00.360 I get, I get, like, it's nice to have bonuses and this is kind of 130 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:03.779 the age we're in now where you get the season and then you get 131 00:07:03.779 --> 00:07:05.040 like extras as well. 132 00:07:05.100 --> 00:07:06.720 And I get the appeal of it. 133 00:07:06.779 --> 00:07:12.600 I just think if you're a casual member of the audience and I don't 134 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:15.420 think Picard really has many casual members of the audience 135 00:07:15.420 --> 00:07:19.259 because it's basically, you know, chapters in a novel, isn't it? 136 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:19.920 season one. 137 00:07:19.980 --> 00:07:20.459 Yeah, yeah. 138 00:07:20.459 --> 00:07:23.399 And if you duck out a one, you're fucking screwed. 139 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:24.899 Yeah. 140 00:07:24.899 --> 00:07:28.139 So I don't think those people would actually seek this out. 141 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:31.319 It's it's the diehard Trek fans that will watch the short Trek, you 142 00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:31.500 know. 143 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:32.579 Yeah, I think so. 144 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:40.079 But I think too, what Kurtzman Trek wants to do is it creates a 145 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:45.839 whole heap of TV series which are on at the same time and which 146 00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:49.259 are all wildly vastly different from one another. 147 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:50.759 Yeah, I like that. 148 00:07:50.819 --> 00:07:53.579 They're basically knocking Star Trek into all these different 149 00:07:53.579 --> 00:07:56.639 shapes. and kind of seeing what sticks. 150 00:07:56.699 --> 00:08:00.600 And if it don't really work, and I question about Discovery Series 151 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:02.939 one and some of Picard series one. 152 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:07.199 They're kind of reshaping it and yeah, and going a different 153 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:07.860 paths. 154 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:09.000 Well, that's right. 155 00:08:09.060 --> 00:08:12.300 I mean, you know, the serialised storytelling is present in 156 00:08:12.300 --> 00:08:15.779 discovery, but much, much more what Picard is about. 157 00:08:15.899 --> 00:08:20.100 You've got short treks, which is a little anthology series of 158 00:08:20.100 --> 00:08:23.519 short stories, all of which are sort of vastly different from one 159 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:24.000 another. 160 00:08:24.060 --> 00:08:28.379 We're about to have strange new worlds, which looks like it's 161 00:08:28.379 --> 00:08:33.779 going to be very much more trad. nostalgic and yeah. 162 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:37.740 Yeah, although I think it's going to push it from what I've seen. 163 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:42.960 Certainly the cast is vastly more diverse than original series 164 00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:43.620 track. 165 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:48.720 So there's a lot of experimentation which is absent, I think 166 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:51.059 largely from the Berman era. 167 00:08:51.179 --> 00:08:52.080 Oh for sure. 168 00:08:52.139 --> 00:08:54.299 Like they had a formula with bourbon trek. 169 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:58.679 Well, DF9 broke up a beer. and when serialised. 170 00:08:58.740 --> 00:08:59.820 But yeah, they absolutely. 171 00:08:59.879 --> 00:09:03.419 They had a template and that's what they did for 21 years, you 172 00:09:03.419 --> 00:09:03.659 know? 173 00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:05.820 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 174 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:06.960 Yeah, it was rough. 175 00:09:07.019 --> 00:09:12.480 Like, how luxurious to have time and to have the money, because 176 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:14.820 they absolutely have the money to make this stuff work. 177 00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:18.240 Picard is one of the most beautiful looking TV shows you're going 178 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:18.539 to find. 179 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:22.320 And as a science fiction show. 180 00:09:22.379 --> 00:09:27.000 Now, you fight me all the time on using the word cinematic, but if 181 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:31.320 you go and watch the last episode of season one of Picard, That is 182 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:32.940 genuinely cinematic. 183 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:37.080 Like the battle sequences and those big flowers and oh, God, it 184 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:38.340 looks amazingly good. 185 00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:39.419 Yeah. 186 00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:40.139 Yeah. 187 00:09:40.200 --> 00:09:41.279 And that's the other thing too. 188 00:09:41.340 --> 00:09:44.159 Berman Trek was very staid visually. 189 00:09:44.220 --> 00:09:49.139 Um, but Kurtzman Trek is amazing looking. 190 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:50.159 Just incredible. 191 00:09:50.220 --> 00:09:53.460 I mean, you and me have ripped at Bourbon Trek when they've tried 192 00:09:53.460 --> 00:09:57.059 to be more visually ambitious because they just can't do it. 193 00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:01.440 They have those like CSO shots of people against awful backdrops 194 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:04.620 or the little CGI people walking along the landscape. 195 00:10:04.860 --> 00:10:07.919 Oh, I can see what you're trying to do, but you just don't have 196 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:09.360 the money or the technology right now. 197 00:10:09.419 --> 00:10:11.820 Now. we have the technology. 198 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:13.139 Yeah. 199 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:18.000 I do want to mention that I do love Berman Trek despite... ripping 200 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:18.419 into it. 201 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:20.460 Stop this cursman, Trek. 202 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:23.279 I would always go straight to Bourman Trek. 203 00:10:23.340 --> 00:10:27.299 I'm sorry We have to call it bourbon tray. 204 00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:30.059 I don't just, these are bad tastes in my mouth. 205 00:10:30.059 --> 00:10:33.539 Because we've got... 90s trek instead. 90s trek maybe. 206 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:38.100 Well, it does leak into the 1st decade of this millennium, though. 207 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:40.740 Now, ask what I put a little disclaimer before we're going to 208 00:10:40.740 --> 00:10:43.259 watch this as well, by the way, is the use of to me that this 209 00:10:43.259 --> 00:10:44.340 would be quite confronting. 210 00:10:44.460 --> 00:10:46.259 Boy, is it? 211 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:51.000 Like this, um, children of Mars that we're going to watch. is 212 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:55.379 absolutely parallelling what happened in 911, isn't it? 213 00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:57.899 in a very kind of emotive way. 214 00:10:58.019 --> 00:10:59.700 It's funny. 215 00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:04.200 My experience of 911 was super odd because I was off work sick. 216 00:11:04.259 --> 00:11:11.700 And I was on the internet and I started to hear the news. 217 00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:14.580 So I was awake, just because of time zones or whatever. 218 00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:18.000 And I started to hear the news about the towers. 219 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:22.080 And it was a little while before it occurred to me that it would 220 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:25.200 be being covered on television and I switched the TV on. 221 00:11:25.259 --> 00:11:29.519 And it was, you know, really astounding. 222 00:11:29.580 --> 00:11:30.779 It was so shocking. 223 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:35.460 It was almost like the biggest thing that had happened in my 224 00:11:35.460 --> 00:11:38.220 lifetime as far as news was concerned. 225 00:11:38.220 --> 00:11:42.419 And you're somebody, you're quite like a news hunter. 226 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:43.740 You watch a lot, yeah. 227 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:44.639 Yeah, I do. 228 00:11:44.700 --> 00:11:45.059 I do. 229 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:51.000 And you hear stories of kids being, like the TV being wheeled into 230 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:54.659 the classroom or whatever, American kids watching it live on 231 00:11:54.659 --> 00:11:55.320 television. 232 00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:58.139 And you can see that happening here. 233 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:03.419 That's exactly how this ends is with the school watching on these 234 00:12:03.419 --> 00:12:06.779 massive screens as the attack on Mars happens. 235 00:12:06.840 --> 00:12:09.960 And I think that. 236 00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:15.720 So we've done 911 before, haven't we, on Star Trek? 237 00:12:15.779 --> 00:12:19.259 Enterprise series 3 stroke at the end of series 2. 238 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:19.919 Yeah. 239 00:12:19.980 --> 00:12:20.399 Yeah. 240 00:12:20.460 --> 00:12:23.399 And I know you and I, when you were my, I've been watching it 241 00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:29.460 recently, and I think I'm a lot more positive about what they were 242 00:12:29.460 --> 00:12:30.779 trying to do than you are. 243 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:35.279 Well, you and John Billingsley, but I listen to an interview the 244 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:37.320 other day and he was a poll of what they were doing in his own 245 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:37.500 show. 246 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:40.679 Yeah, I thought that the interview was amazingly good. 247 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:48.659 The, the, um, I think the problem is that enterprise is flailing. 248 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:52.860 They have a really great premise in a lot of ways. 249 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:54.899 This is the 1st startership. 250 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:58.980 This is the 1st time we're going to have, you know, a whole heap 251 00:12:58.980 --> 00:12:59.759 of things happening. 252 00:12:59.820 --> 00:13:02.700 Our 1st away mission, our 1st contact, all of that. 253 00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:06.179 And I think I was pretty positive about that last week when we did 254 00:13:06.179 --> 00:13:07.259 cogenitor. 255 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:10.679 You know, there were really fun things about that situation that I 256 00:13:10.679 --> 00:13:13.379 don't think could have happened in any previous trek because we're 257 00:13:13.379 --> 00:13:17.279 all a little bit too jaded or too practised with meeting alien 258 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:18.299 civilisations. 259 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:23.039 And so that's kind of fresh, but they're, I mean, I do, I 260 00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:25.019 genuinely think at the end of series, they were trying to give it 261 00:13:25.019 --> 00:13:28.740 a shot. in the arm and they were trying to make it by appointment 262 00:13:28.740 --> 00:13:29.700 television again. 263 00:13:29.700 --> 00:13:32.340 And they were kind of trying to deal with stuff that was happening 264 00:13:32.340 --> 00:13:33.899 at the time as well. 265 00:13:33.899 --> 00:13:38.279 Like, maybe it was all a bit misguided and maybe what they were 266 00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:42.419 saying wasn't the right thing and maybe the way they made the 267 00:13:42.419 --> 00:13:46.259 characters behave was a bit appalling, like Archer becomes, you 268 00:13:46.259 --> 00:13:48.960 know, goes from being a dick to being a fucking prick in serious 269 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:49.559 free. 270 00:13:49.620 --> 00:13:50.220 Yeah, yeah. 271 00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:53.340 I thought the violence they did to Tripp's character was pretty 272 00:13:53.340 --> 00:13:54.000 rough as well. 273 00:13:54.059 --> 00:13:58.980 Like they kill his sister and he becomes horrible and he has been 274 00:13:58.980 --> 00:14:02.279 becoming more and more charming throughout one and two. 275 00:14:02.340 --> 00:14:06.600 You say that, but then in the last third. 276 00:14:06.659 --> 00:14:09.360 So he's dealing with his sister's death route series three. 277 00:14:09.419 --> 00:14:15.960 Um, and they do an episode where he loses a crew member when the 278 00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:20.399 ship's attacked and he has to write a letter home to the crew 279 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:21.240 members' families. 280 00:14:21.299 --> 00:14:24.539 And throughout the episode, he is struggling to write this 281 00:14:24.539 --> 00:14:24.960 letter. 282 00:14:25.019 --> 00:14:29.100 And then he realises that when he's talking about this crew member 283 00:14:29.100 --> 00:14:34.440 the whole time he's actually thinking about his sister and it's 284 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:37.139 not the crew member's death, he can't get over it. and he has a 285 00:14:37.139 --> 00:14:40.679 breakdown and it is remarkably sensitively handled. 286 00:14:40.740 --> 00:14:44.340 Like, it's characterisation I didn't think Enterprise was capable 287 00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:45.120 of, personally. 288 00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:48.299 I mean, give Conor Trinier things to do. 289 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:49.620 He really is great. 290 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:52.980 I'm only really just starting to realise how good he is. 291 00:14:53.340 --> 00:14:57.600 I think the problem is that it was just being done to inject some 292 00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:02.519 drama into the show and that it didn't have anything very much to 293 00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:02.759 say. 294 00:15:03.059 --> 00:15:10.259 And I also think that it's America's reaction to 911, which was 295 00:15:10.259 --> 00:15:15.120 you know, war in Afghanistan and the occupation of Iran, is 296 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:19.860 something, I think, that Discovery season one is addressing. 297 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:27.000 And the problem in Discovery Series one is we're at war now, to 298 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:32.519 what degree do we throw away our principles? 299 00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:36.360 When they get in the way of us prosecuting the war? 300 00:15:36.419 --> 00:15:41.220 Which, I think, is a worthy premise for that season, but it just 301 00:15:41.220 --> 00:15:47.159 gets too mired in that cheap plot twists and crappy cliffhanger. 302 00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:51.000 And I was like, and like, if that was the premise of that season, I 303 00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:53.340 really wasn't seeing it, because I felt like I was being like 304 00:15:53.340 --> 00:15:54.779 diverted. 305 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:55.500 Lots of directions. 306 00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:55.799 Yeah. 307 00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:56.460 Yeah. 308 00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:02.700 Whereas this, this is very pointedly 911 because it's literally 309 00:16:02.700 --> 00:16:04.620 playing out like you described there. 310 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:08.460 They're seeing the terrorist attack on the television screen. 311 00:16:08.460 --> 00:16:14.159 And the whole point of it is it unites people together in the face 312 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:15.419 of that kind of terror. 313 00:16:15.539 --> 00:16:19.919 Um, and absolutely inform us Picard series one. 314 00:16:19.980 --> 00:16:22.019 And the 1st time I watched Picard series one. 315 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:25.980 That was my biggest issue was that it was just a bit, it wasn't 316 00:16:25.980 --> 00:16:29.220 the Star Trek I loved in the 90s. 317 00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:32.580 It was the characters, like Picard was there and Rock and Joy turn 318 00:16:32.580 --> 00:16:37.320 up later on, but it was this kind of very cynical, very dark. 319 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:39.059 Universe. 320 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:39.659 Yeah. 321 00:16:39.659 --> 00:16:41.639 Now there's moments of brightness. 322 00:16:41.700 --> 00:16:42.360 Don't get me wrong. 323 00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:44.039 And there's fun characters coming along. 324 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:46.320 And by the end of the season, they've kind of captured that sort 325 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:48.899 of adventurous spirit again and they've worked from all. 326 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:52.019 That 1st half, 1st time I watched it, that was rough. 327 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:56.340 I've been watching a little bit of Picard lately and I haven't 328 00:16:56.340 --> 00:16:58.980 really gone back and watched it through in order and I'd quite 329 00:16:58.980 --> 00:16:59.820 like to do that now. 330 00:16:59.879 --> 00:17:03.179 My impression at the time was that there were a few episodes where 331 00:17:03.179 --> 00:17:05.460 they were spinning their wheels in the 1st half. 332 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:06.359 Definitely. 333 00:17:06.420 --> 00:17:06.839 Yeah. 334 00:17:06.900 --> 00:17:11.519 I think the 1st episode says its stall very memorably. 335 00:17:11.579 --> 00:17:13.920 It knows what it's doing. and it commits to it. 336 00:17:13.980 --> 00:17:15.420 God, it looks good. 337 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:16.619 It looks amazingly good. 338 00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:21.420 And the last episode, I think as a culmination of the season, is 339 00:17:21.420 --> 00:17:24.839 one of the best trek finales, like across the franchise. 340 00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:25.980 It makes me cross. 341 00:17:26.099 --> 00:17:28.680 What comes in between? 342 00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:31.140 Oh, get to that. 343 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:37.440 What comes in between is there's a lot of padding in between. 344 00:17:37.500 --> 00:17:40.200 There's a lot of interminable scenes in the ball cube. 345 00:17:40.259 --> 00:17:43.740 There's some divergence like hue and things like that that I don't 346 00:17:43.740 --> 00:17:44.940 think are entirely necessary. 347 00:17:45.059 --> 00:17:51.480 Um, Yeah, so it's it's a real mixed back and I didn't like it the 348 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:52.200 1st time I watched it. 349 00:17:52.259 --> 00:17:55.259 I'm starting to watch it through again now knowing. 350 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:56.759 Yeah, I've seen it once. 351 00:17:56.819 --> 00:18:00.660 And actually, I'm seeing far more strengths, but it's almost like 352 00:18:00.660 --> 00:18:05.339 the further into the season I go, the more pacing issues they get 353 00:18:05.339 --> 00:18:09.480 and the more I kind of miss the old episodic trek. 354 00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:10.740 Yeah, yeah. 355 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:12.720 And the old episodic trek didn't go away. 356 00:18:12.779 --> 00:18:16.440 It's over on discovery at the moment, you know, so lower decks. 357 00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:18.900 Yeah, Picard is free to do something else. 358 00:18:19.380 --> 00:18:25.140 But what Picard has is a reaction to 911, more like the American 359 00:18:25.140 --> 00:18:29.279 reaction where we get angry and isolationist, and we have Picard 360 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:32.039 resigning from Starfleet kind of as a result of that. 361 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:36.480 I bloody love that scene, you know, where he says, I told them 362 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:39.900 that if they don't listen to me, I'm going to resign. 363 00:18:40.140 --> 00:18:42.839 Oh my god, well, they wouldn't have done that. 364 00:18:42.900 --> 00:18:43.859 No, they asked me to resign. 365 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:44.880 Yeah, yeah. 366 00:18:44.940 --> 00:18:46.079 Well, and that's it. 367 00:18:46.140 --> 00:18:52.500 So we have Picard, who is where Starfleet's basic ideals, or the 368 00:18:52.500 --> 00:18:56.160 Federation's basic ideals are still located at a time when the 369 00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:00.720 Federation has been frightened into abandoning those ideals. 370 00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:03.900 And he says, doesn't he, when he does that interview, he says 371 00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:06.480 because it wasn't Starfleet. 372 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:07.799 Yeah, yeah. 373 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:08.759 Really angrily. 374 00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:09.960 Like, that's a great scene. 375 00:19:10.019 --> 00:19:10.799 Yeah. 376 00:19:10.859 --> 00:19:14.759 And that is the thing that Kurtzman Trek is doing, and I maintain 377 00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:20.700 it is because it's a late Trump post-Trump phenomenon where we've 378 00:19:20.700 --> 00:19:28.559 had 20 years of America being at war and then culminating in this 379 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:33.059 sort of kind of racist demagogue coming in and sort of trampling 380 00:19:33.059 --> 00:19:37.259 over democratic ideals and the continuing threat to American 381 00:19:37.259 --> 00:19:40.019 democracy that still persists. 382 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:45.839 It's a lovely idea, isn't it, of taking, you know, kind of the 383 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:51.000 consequences of 20 years of war, transplanting it into the future 384 00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:56.579 and then showing how we're trying to move on from that, and how 385 00:19:56.579 --> 00:19:59.819 you know, this, the old trek idea of we're better than this, and 386 00:19:59.819 --> 00:20:00.539 we can get there. 387 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:01.619 We can get there again. 388 00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:03.720 We've been there and we can get there again. 389 00:20:03.779 --> 00:20:07.980 And so those people, I think, who initially criticised Kursman 390 00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:12.539 Trek for not being trek enough, for not having those ideals 391 00:20:12.539 --> 00:20:13.500 enough. 392 00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:16.859 I think that they're wrong because I think that the whole of 393 00:20:16.859 --> 00:20:23.339 Discovery Series one is about responding to war or conflict or 394 00:20:23.339 --> 00:20:29.039 difficulty by clinging more closely to those ideals and clearly 395 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:30.000 Picard's about that. 396 00:20:30.059 --> 00:20:31.440 And that's what this is about. 397 00:20:31.500 --> 00:20:36.660 This is about a terrible tragedy that unites people who are in 398 00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:37.380 conflict. 399 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:41.160 And I think it's very, very deftly done in a very short amount of 400 00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:41.400 time. 401 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:44.400 Do you mean this episode or this season? 402 00:20:44.460 --> 00:20:45.180 this episode. 403 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:47.460 Oh, I mean, we'll go into this in a second. 404 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:52.200 I think my only, like, my, my biggest objection is, I think Picard 405 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:57.720 is trying to be a little too nasty, and it does terrible things to 406 00:20:57.720 --> 00:20:58.680 its characters at times. 407 00:20:58.740 --> 00:21:00.539 I really don't like that. 408 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:03.299 That feels very not Star Trek to me. 409 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:04.200 Yeah, yeah. 410 00:21:04.259 --> 00:21:07.559 I think it's kind of trying to occupy a Game of Thrones sort of 411 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:07.980 space. 412 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:09.299 Yeah. 413 00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:12.660 And, you know, we can have a Star Trek that does that, I think 414 00:21:12.660 --> 00:21:14.519 provided that's not all we get. 415 00:21:14.579 --> 00:21:18.240 I mean, he was a terrible fucking character, that each ship. but 416 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:20.460 gouging out his eye and killing him before. 417 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:21.660 I mean, that was terrible. 418 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:25.380 Unfortunately, Borg, you know, like being murdered off. 419 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:28.500 It was like they would literally try taking Next Gen and Voyager. 420 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:31.500 I'm just like, you know, assassinating as many people as 421 00:21:31.500 --> 00:21:31.740 possible. 422 00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:34.619 Anyway, should we go into children of Mars? 423 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:36.119 I think we probably should. 424 00:21:36.180 --> 00:21:37.200 I've got it queued up. 425 00:21:37.259 --> 00:21:38.700 Okey dokey. 426 00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:40.079 Shall I count us in? 427 00:21:40.140 --> 00:21:41.279 I'm ready. 428 00:21:41.339 --> 00:21:42.839 All right. 429 00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:47.880 Five, four, three, two, one. 430 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:49.980 And we're off. 431 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:53.220 So this is Kima. 432 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:55.619 And... 433 00:21:55.619 --> 00:21:59.519 This thing I do with their tongue. 434 00:21:59.579 --> 00:22:01.019 It's adorable, isn't it? 435 00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:02.039 The mum is so nice. 436 00:22:02.099 --> 00:22:04.440 Is that a special effect or is that? 437 00:22:04.619 --> 00:22:05.039 Yeah, yeah. 438 00:22:05.099 --> 00:22:06.059 I think it's a special effect. 439 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:09.059 I mean, I'm sorry, just look at the shipyard. 440 00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:11.460 It's beautiful, isn't it? 441 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:13.019 And then there's Lil. 442 00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:18.359 And I think that this is cleverly done because although they both 443 00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:23.519 go to the same school, they're coded as different racially, aren't 444 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:23.759 they? 445 00:22:23.819 --> 00:22:29.220 So, you know, um, Kima is, is brown. 446 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:33.480 She has different skin and eye colour from Lil. 447 00:22:33.539 --> 00:22:35.819 Lil is a white girl. 448 00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:40.559 Kima's mother seems to be some kind of technician and the father 449 00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:42.299 seems to be a supervisor. 450 00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:46.259 So it's almost like there's a class distinction there as well. 451 00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:50.940 So does Lil bump into chemo because she's got the shits because 452 00:22:50.940 --> 00:22:51.599 she's had a fight. 453 00:22:51.660 --> 00:22:53.099 Oh, that's the other difference too. 454 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:54.779 A nice family relationship. 455 00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:57.960 Kema has a friendly relationship with mom. 456 00:22:58.019 --> 00:22:59.700 And the other one is slightly more contentious. 457 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:02.940 Yeah, well, Lil hangs up on him and that's the last time she ever 458 00:23:02.940 --> 00:23:04.140 speaks to him as well. 459 00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:05.519 Can you imagine? 460 00:23:05.579 --> 00:23:08.640 That hates more than anything because when you see her, it's 461 00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:09.240 almost like she knows. 462 00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:11.220 The last time she spoke to her dad. 463 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:12.779 Oh, it's so good. 464 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:16.140 Now you wanted to talk about that bus coming down, didn't you? 465 00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:17.880 I just think it looks amazing. 466 00:23:17.940 --> 00:23:21.119 And one of the things that I love is when Star Trek does Earth 467 00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:24.900 because Star Trek on easy mode is a spaceship with a bunch of 468 00:23:24.900 --> 00:23:29.339 people in space and that's where Picard eventually lands. 469 00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:33.599 But what's interesting is seeing them create the 24th century on 470 00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:33.900 Earth. 471 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:37.799 And so this school, this is, I think it's a university building in 472 00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:38.940 Toronto, actually. 473 00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:42.359 I think the school is beautiful. 474 00:23:42.420 --> 00:23:45.359 I think you know, these holograms look amazing. 475 00:23:45.420 --> 00:23:49.200 It's something that Picard does exceptionally well. 476 00:23:49.259 --> 00:23:50.880 Every time they go back to Earth. 477 00:23:50.940 --> 00:23:54.660 And I said to you, it's almost like a mix of contemporary and very 478 00:23:54.660 --> 00:23:58.680 futuristic and they kind of blend the 2 seamlessly. 479 00:23:58.740 --> 00:23:59.279 It's wonderful. 480 00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:00.420 Look at this classroom. 481 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:02.519 Look how beautiful the location is. 482 00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:05.880 Oh, Kema's life. 483 00:24:05.940 --> 00:24:09.359 You know what, we're talking about talking about like the, um, the 484 00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:12.299 tension between the 2 characters and the racial turn. 485 00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:14.579 I think that was absolutely there in Berman Trek as well. 486 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:18.420 Do you remember Mendon, the guy with the, the, what was it, the 487 00:24:18.420 --> 00:24:19.079 Benzite? 488 00:24:19.140 --> 00:24:22.619 And and and that and they were they were a bit rude about him and 489 00:24:22.619 --> 00:24:25.140 there's talk about them being racist about the Ferengi in the 490 00:24:25.140 --> 00:24:25.500 academy. 491 00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:28.559 It's supposed to be this enlightened universe, but I still think 492 00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:30.119 there's the old tensions there. 493 00:24:30.180 --> 00:24:34.200 Yeah, well, but I do think that the reason that they're different 494 00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:36.720 isn't just for the plot here, it is symbolic. 495 00:24:36.779 --> 00:24:43.079 It is 2 people with very different backgrounds who are, uh, you 496 00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:46.799 know, literally come to blows as this is happening. 497 00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:48.119 The fight is vicious. 498 00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:49.619 It's really vicious. 499 00:24:50.099 --> 00:24:51.660 Yeah, yeah. 500 00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:52.920 It's really well done. 501 00:24:52.980 --> 00:24:54.660 It's brilliantly done. 502 00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:56.880 Do you know what's weird about this? 503 00:24:56.940 --> 00:25:00.900 What makes this such an aberration is I think this as a piece. 504 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:01.559 Yeah. 505 00:25:01.619 --> 00:25:07.319 It's it's small and it absolutely has a mission and it's committed 506 00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:07.740 to it. 507 00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:09.480 Whereas Picard as a whole. 508 00:25:09.539 --> 00:25:11.940 It's flounders and it's all over the bloody place. 509 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:16.259 I think it's, I think the card's less like that on a 2nd viewing, I 510 00:25:16.259 --> 00:25:16.859 have to say. 511 00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:18.119 We'll see. 512 00:25:18.180 --> 00:25:18.599 We'll see. 513 00:25:18.660 --> 00:25:19.740 Oh, wow. 514 00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:20.460 Look at this. 515 00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:21.359 Yeah, yeah. 516 00:25:21.420 --> 00:25:23.759 It's really properly violent. 517 00:25:23.819 --> 00:25:26.400 And it's great seeing 2 girls going at it, you know? 518 00:25:26.460 --> 00:25:28.619 Yeah, I was wondering about that as well. 519 00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:32.519 I'm glad that it's girls, who are the 2 leads in this, and I think 520 00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:33.420 they're both really good. 521 00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:36.480 And I love how this is mostly done with no dialogue. 522 00:25:36.539 --> 00:25:38.460 So can we talk about the song? 523 00:25:38.519 --> 00:25:44.940 It's written by David Bowie and Brian Eno, and it talks about us 524 00:25:44.940 --> 00:25:51.720 being heroes as the, as the sort of, um, what does it say? 525 00:25:51.779 --> 00:25:54.720 And the guns shot above our heads and we kissed as though nothing 526 00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:55.440 could fall. 527 00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:59.880 It's a stunning song, and this is a terrific version. 528 00:25:59.940 --> 00:26:01.680 I just think and it suits the action. 529 00:26:01.740 --> 00:26:03.599 Like, I... 530 00:26:03.660 --> 00:26:05.339 Did you notice how they showed the blood on her nose? 531 00:26:05.400 --> 00:26:09.059 I think it was that was deliberate to show, you know, she's an 532 00:26:09.059 --> 00:26:09.359 alien. 533 00:26:09.420 --> 00:26:10.440 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 534 00:26:10.500 --> 00:26:10.859 Yeah. 535 00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:18.480 And so, and so, the being a heroes thing is the final shot. 536 00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:23.160 It's them overcoming their enmity and their differences, them 537 00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:30.000 responding to this horrific tragedy by unifying. 538 00:26:30.059 --> 00:26:35.279 And that's that's the reaction we should have had to 911 and 539 00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:36.299 that's not the reaction. 540 00:26:36.359 --> 00:26:41.519 And it's not the reaction that the Federation has in Pecan as 541 00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:41.759 well. 542 00:26:41.819 --> 00:26:46.140 Like the Federation reacts, but by being isolationist, by 543 00:26:46.140 --> 00:26:51.599 abandoning the Romulans, who are, you know, just refugees, you 544 00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:53.819 know, it's got a really strong political thing. 545 00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:57.420 I don't think there's something very irresponsible about putting 546 00:26:57.420 --> 00:27:00.660 this terror attack on all these screens for the children to see. 547 00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:02.460 Well, no, but I mean, that's what happened. 548 00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:06.180 People were taken away and I think that's irresponsible as well 549 00:27:06.180 --> 00:27:06.359 though. 550 00:27:06.420 --> 00:27:11.640 Well, I think kids, I think kids can cope and I think that kids, I 551 00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:12.720 think it was worth doing. 552 00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:15.900 I, you know, this is an important thing. 553 00:27:15.900 --> 00:27:19.019 And I think they kind of, I think they needed to see it. 554 00:27:19.140 --> 00:27:22.140 And this scene, look how many extras there are. 555 00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:23.700 Look how big this space is. 556 00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:27.599 Yeah, this is not, this is not a scrimp production. 557 00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:28.980 This is a polished piece. 558 00:27:29.460 --> 00:27:33.240 And those shots, the synth shots, look amazing. 559 00:27:34.259 --> 00:27:39.420 And when you actually see this attack taking place. like in the 560 00:27:39.420 --> 00:27:41.819 facility, it doesn't disappoint. 561 00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:43.740 I mean, it's really good. 562 00:27:43.799 --> 00:27:47.039 Oh, look at that, the planet. incredible. 563 00:27:47.099 --> 00:27:52.740 And now they're both remembering their parents and she's lost, you 564 00:27:52.740 --> 00:27:56.220 know, Keema's lost someone who she loves who she had a fun 565 00:27:56.220 --> 00:28:00.599 relationship with and there's Lil remembering hanging up on him. 566 00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:02.220 It's awful. 567 00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:05.339 It's just, it's so hard. 568 00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:08.880 And just to have like just to make it an ad for Picard for a 569 00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:09.059 second. 570 00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:11.940 Well, yeah, it's amazing. by looking grim. 571 00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:13.859 I can't even imagine. 572 00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:19.920 I can't even imagine what people went through losing loved ones in 573 00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:21.240 such a pointless way. 574 00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:23.160 It must have just been heartbreaking. 575 00:28:23.220 --> 00:28:24.599 That's beautiful final shot. 576 00:28:24.660 --> 00:28:27.420 And that's what we go out on is them linking hands. 577 00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:29.519 But that Star Trek, isn't it? 578 00:28:29.579 --> 00:28:33.480 They're literally saying this is how we should have done it. 579 00:28:33.539 --> 00:28:35.220 This is how we could have been, you know? 580 00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:35.880 Yeah. 581 00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:40.440 In the most cynical of all Star Trek shows. 582 00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:47.519 But there's a moment where Kima looks at Lil and she weeps, like 583 00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:52.380 there's a tear, and the actor, she just looks so vulnerable. 584 00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:54.299 It's so beautifully done. 585 00:28:54.359 --> 00:28:56.759 Do you think it would have been worth going back to these 586 00:28:56.759 --> 00:28:59.819 characters in the actual series or this just stands? 587 00:28:59.880 --> 00:29:05.940 One of the things that I like is the self-containedness of it. 588 00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:11.640 There are a couple of instances where characters, like Saru's 589 00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:17.640 sister, turn up in short treks 1st and then find their way into 590 00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:18.779 discovery. 591 00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:23.940 Remember that this is some years before Picard is set. 592 00:29:24.660 --> 00:29:27.240 Is it 15 years or something? 593 00:29:27.299 --> 00:29:30.299 Like it's a considerable amount of time. 594 00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:32.700 Because a lot's happened with him, isn't it? 595 00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:35.940 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. like he's he's in the vineyard. 596 00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:36.960 He retires, you know? 597 00:29:37.019 --> 00:29:37.500 Yeah. 598 00:29:37.500 --> 00:29:38.220 Yeah. 599 00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:39.420 Yeah. 600 00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:45.000 Oh, I just think this is properly good and that it manages to have 601 00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:47.880 a worthwhile political message. 602 00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:50.279 You know, without much dialogue. 603 00:29:50.339 --> 00:29:52.980 There's the 2 voiceovers at the beginning, but there's basically 604 00:29:52.980 --> 00:29:54.000 no dialogue. 605 00:29:54.059 --> 00:29:58.019 Also, as well, I think, because this was the 1st piece of Picard 606 00:29:58.019 --> 00:29:59.880 that made it to air. 607 00:29:59.940 --> 00:30:02.940 I don't think this is what people were expecting at all. 608 00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:06.720 So it's kind of a shocking like, okay. 609 00:30:06.779 --> 00:30:08.880 This is what you're going to get, guys. you know. 610 00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:12.119 It probably excited people a lot because it's very different from 611 00:30:12.119 --> 00:30:14.099 what kind of Star Trek has been before. 612 00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:20.579 But what I'd like to say is that I think this is this as a piece 613 00:30:20.579 --> 00:30:25.140 of drama is actually more effective than half a dozen of the Star 614 00:30:25.140 --> 00:30:26.640 Trek Picard episodes. 615 00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:32.039 So people should absolutely go and seek out these short tracks. and 616 00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:35.099 see what they're about because I think, I mean, I've not seen the 617 00:30:35.099 --> 00:30:38.220 other nine, but if that's an example of how good they can be. 618 00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:39.960 Sign me up. 619 00:30:40.019 --> 00:30:40.500 Yeah. 620 00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:46.559 I would recommend Calypso, which I think is astonishingly good, and 621 00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:50.579 has some background to the Zora character, actually, long before 622 00:30:50.579 --> 00:30:55.920 Zora became a character in Discovery, and Trouble with Edward, for 623 00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:56.099 sure. 624 00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:58.440 I mean, there were several that you didn't recommend because we 625 00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:00.779 went through that randomiser about 5 bloody times. 626 00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:04.859 In fact, I think the, is it the girl who made the stars, which is 627 00:31:04.859 --> 00:31:10.200 one of the ones that we rejected, I think it's extremely good, I 628 00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:15.359 just wasn't sure I was able to talk about it, to give it justice. 629 00:31:15.420 --> 00:31:18.059 I think it's extremely good as well. 630 00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:22.799 And there's another one called E-Framen Dot, which I think is 631 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:25.200 wonderful, just tremendous. 632 00:31:25.259 --> 00:31:26.759 But a lot of them are very good. 633 00:31:26.819 --> 00:31:28.019 Like I'm a big fan. 634 00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:34.140 There's one or 2 I'm yet to see, but I think absolutely there's a 635 00:31:34.140 --> 00:31:36.359 lot of really excellent Star Trek in there. 636 00:31:36.420 --> 00:31:42.900 All I can say is, is, that is the typical example of a short trek 637 00:31:42.900 --> 00:31:45.299 then I am salimating cigarette. 638 00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:54.779 All right, so it's time for us to choose next week's episode, and 639 00:31:54.779 --> 00:32:00.059 can you tell the listener, Joe, what we're choosing and why? 640 00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:02.880 That is something that I would absolutely love to do for the 641 00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:03.299 listener. 642 00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:10.380 It's on the back of us doing the short treks of Picard. 643 00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:13.740 It's it's basically, you know, we are we have dipped into a couple 644 00:32:13.740 --> 00:32:17.039 of series twice now and we haven't touched upon Picard at all. 645 00:32:17.099 --> 00:32:20.759 And there's so much to talk about with Picard. 646 00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:21.599 So much. 647 00:32:21.660 --> 00:32:27.359 It's the 1st kind of reinvention of a Star Trek show like this 648 00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:31.259 because it's essentially But it's not it's not TNG, is it? 649 00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:33.480 But it's got a lot of TNG in it. 650 00:32:33.539 --> 00:32:36.539 Okay, so we're going to be doing Star Trek Picard. 651 00:32:36.599 --> 00:32:42.000 It's probably the Kurtzman trek I find most problematic as well 652 00:32:42.059 --> 00:32:46.859 for a lot of reasons, whilst I acknowledge that come the end of 653 00:32:46.859 --> 00:32:48.480 the season, I was completely on board. 654 00:32:48.539 --> 00:32:51.480 So it's not like I'm rejecting it outright. 655 00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:53.640 And my finger is on the button. 656 00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:55.619 Okay, all right. 657 00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:56.460 Give it a press. 658 00:32:56.700 --> 00:32:58.559 Oh, no. 659 00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:06.240 Well, I think it's the 1st part of the 2 part finale. 660 00:33:06.299 --> 00:33:10.140 It's called XN Arcadia Ego part one. 661 00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:12.839 Yeah, Eddie Nut, Arkadia, Ego. 662 00:33:12.900 --> 00:33:15.420 So it's some, yeah, no, that's the one where they're going down to 663 00:33:15.420 --> 00:33:17.640 that planet and it's just like 90s trek, isn't it? 664 00:33:17.700 --> 00:33:19.019 Or the Android planet. 665 00:33:19.500 --> 00:33:21.420 Should we have a single episode? 666 00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:22.079 Yeah, push it again. 667 00:33:22.140 --> 00:33:22.920 Yeah, yeah. 668 00:33:22.980 --> 00:33:24.059 That's the only 2 parter. 669 00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:26.519 Well, I don't know what this is at all. 670 00:33:26.579 --> 00:33:27.359 Nepenthe? 671 00:33:27.420 --> 00:33:28.619 No, no, no. 672 00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:32.579 Nepenthe is the episode, I think, with Riker and Troy. 673 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:38.880 So this is absolutely gold and no one here listening knows that we 674 00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:45.539 edited out 5 minutes of me researching to... to find out what that 675 00:33:45.539 --> 00:33:45.720 is. 676 00:33:45.779 --> 00:33:48.599 We're so sophisticated in our Star Trek knowledge, you know. 677 00:33:48.660 --> 00:33:51.240 Yeah, no, just sophisticated at editing. 678 00:33:51.299 --> 00:33:55.019 The later it gets, I get very ropey on episode time. 679 00:33:55.079 --> 00:33:58.920 Well, there's no on-screen episode titles in Kurtzman track, except 680 00:33:58.920 --> 00:34:02.640 for Lower Decks, obviously, and on prodigy. 681 00:34:02.700 --> 00:34:07.140 But the grown-up shows don't... 682 00:34:07.140 --> 00:34:10.920 But the non-animated shows don't have on-screen title. 683 00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:12.119 Question, that assertion, you know. 684 00:34:12.539 --> 00:34:15.239 It's like calling Torch with grown up. 685 00:34:16.380 --> 00:34:19.440 This is the episode, I think. 686 00:34:19.619 --> 00:34:25.019 This is what people were expecting with Picard. and what they 687 00:34:25.019 --> 00:34:25.380 got. 688 00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:28.559 So this is a really interesting 1st episode to do because I think 689 00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:32.159 Nepenthe is basically what some of season two. 690 00:34:32.219 --> 00:34:35.460 There was a great reaction to Nepenthe, wasn't there? 691 00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:36.659 Yeah, yeah. 692 00:34:36.780 --> 00:34:40.440 I think, you know, like we'll talk about it, but I think that 693 00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:43.440 there are enough original characters in Picard who are interesting 694 00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:46.679 and maybe one who's super tedious. 695 00:34:46.739 --> 00:34:50.460 And one who is insanely hot as well. 696 00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:51.780 Oh real. 697 00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:52.320 God, yes. 698 00:34:52.380 --> 00:34:54.059 Well, 2 who are insanely hot. 699 00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:55.679 I think that they're Australian. 700 00:34:55.739 --> 00:34:59.699 The little Australian Romulan, I think, is really... 701 00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:03.840 Anyway, we'll talk more about that next week. 702 00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:16.559 You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford 703 00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:17.880 and Nathan Bottomleaf. 704 00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:21.539 You can find us online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where 705 00:35:21.539 --> 00:35:24.360 you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel. 706 00:35:24.420 --> 00:35:28.320 Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was 707 00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:30.059 composed by Cameron Lamb. 708 00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:34.679 This episode was recorded on the 30th of January 2022 and released 709 00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:35.940 on the 4th of February. 710 00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:40.739 We'll see you next time for Star Trek Picard, the Pencil.