WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-06 at 21:48:57

1
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Hey, Joe. Hi.

2
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I've got a question for you. before we start anything.

3
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Yeah.

4
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Why are we watching an 8 minute excerpt today?

5
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I think it's actually shorter than that because the credits are quite long.

6
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I think probably it's something like 6.5 minutes and then...

7
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It shall be our shortest episode here.

8
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So I think, well, look, I don't believe in Canon, but this is Canon, right?

9
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It's a Star Trek series.

10
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Elements of short treks have then made their way into discovery.

11
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And I think that this gives some really valuable background on Picard and on Kurtzman Trek as a whole.

12
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I should say what it is.

13
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It's children of Mars, which is the most recent episode of short treks to be shown as we record.

14
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It's at the end of series two.

15
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In fact, it doesn't make its way into the series 2 DVD set.

16
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It's part of the Picard set and it's screened on CBS all access on the ninth of January 2020.

17
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So it's the 10th episode.

18
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I mean, I've got 2 things to say about what you just said there, and one is, is the canon debate a big thing in the Trek universe?

19
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Is that enough?

20
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Is it a big thing in every franchise and every fandom?

21
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I think Star Trek has it worse than just about any other fandom.

22
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Sure, it's all canon.

23
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Well, yeah, I think so.

24
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And the fact that elements of the animated series, which is now the only one that we haven't done an episode of on the podcast.

25
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It's like it's like the ugly child of Star Trek project.

26
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That's right.

27
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It, you know, elements of that find their way into lower decks and other things.

28
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So we have to say that's canon.

29
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But one of the things that I think, I mean, I'm talking about everything, everything that's kind of televisual is surely Canada.

30
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I'm not talking about, you know, all the novels, the Dominion War novels and those dreadful TNG novels, contagion and all that that I read when I was a nipper.

31
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But like everything that's committed to film is surely part of the trick verse.

32
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Yeah, but I have a problem with the idea of what canon is because obviously it's a way of distinguishing the stories that really happened from ones that didn't happen and like that's all nonsense.

33
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None of it happened.

34
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It's all made up.

35
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And so...

36
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Yeah, so that's true.

37
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In fact, it's only when you actually point that out, it's how ridiculous.

38
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Arguing about cannon, it really is.

39
00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:10.439
Yeah.

40
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Yeah, I think what I think is there is a kind of shared experience of watching Star Trek over the years, and I think that that's what the show refers to from time to time.

41
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And so, All the time we get these, you know, kind of back references to things, whether they're throwaway lines or whatever, that add a kind of deeper level of meaning to things.

42
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And I think that that is something that Kurtzman Trek does quite a lot in a way that I don't think spoils it for people who don't know that stuff.

43
00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:51.180
Okay, spoils it for people that don't know their stuff.

44
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I have a bit of an issue with these short tracks.

45
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And it's the same issue that I have with the DVD extra sequences they filmed for Doctor Who.

46
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And that is, like, I've watched this with you, children of Mars.

47
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This absolutely should have been part of an episode, I think.

48
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In fact, I think this probably could have been the pre-title sequence of the 1st episode of Picard.

49
00:04:14.939 --> 00:04:24.660
Yeah, I mean, the material that we get here is kind of filled in in Picard and Picard does do flashbacks at the beginning of each episode.

50
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Remember that?

51
00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:26.819
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

52
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And they've got the flashback in the 2nd episode, so the attack on the utopia Polacia. is one of the most gripping sequences I've ever seen in Star Trek.

53
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But my point is, is like this was released as a separate DVD, short trek. so as a thing of its own, and it was put on TV, separate from the episodes as well.

54
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So this is like a, it is technically like a DVD extra.

55
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Yeah, it's like a teaser for the show, isn't it?

56
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But I think it does a very good job of explaining what's at stake in Pecan.

57
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Yeah.

58
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But these aren't like the Doctor Who ones, which were like just, you know, quick scenes filmed in the Tardis.

59
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This is a piece of work.

60
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This is a piece of drama in its own right.

61
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And I think...

62
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If I move this, if you want.

63
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I just genuinely think something as good as this, which is, you know, I would say as good as the best episodes of season one.

64
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Probably should have been part of the actual series rather than the bonus to watch kind of on the side.

65
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Yeah, I mean, it was available to anyone who was able to watch Picard in America because it's on CBS All Access, which is now Paramount Plus in the US.

66
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And so it sort of does have the status of a released episode.

67
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And one of the things that short treks does, it does explore the spaces around the episodes in an interesting way.

68
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And it's super experimental.

69
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So 2 of them are animated in quite different styles, with quite different sort of tones.

70
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There's one episode called The Trouble with Edward, which is an absolute out and out comedy episode.

71
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You say that was the 1st time you fought Star Trek was genuinely funny.

72
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Well, you know, Lower Decks is genuinely funny, but this is the 1st time live action Star Trek.

73
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You never seen Little Green Men?

74
00:06:24.300 --> 00:06:27.420
Yeah, that is funny, but...

75
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Yeah, and Deep Space 9 does do comedy episodes, to be fair, but this is properly silly, wonderful comedy. and anyone who, it's really, really good.

76
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You really must watch it.

77
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It stars the guy, John Benjamin, who plays Archer and Bob Belcher.

78
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Oh, he's got Bob.

79
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He's got a lovely voice, hasn't he?

80
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He really does.

81
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He's so funny in it.

82
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He's just unbelievably great.

83
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I get what they're doing here though.

84
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I get, I get, like, it's nice to have bonuses and this is kind of the age we're in now where you get the season and then you get like extras as well.

85
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And I get the appeal of it.

86
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I just think if you're a casual member of the audience and I don't think Picard really has many casual members of the audience because it's basically, you know, chapters in a novel, isn't it?

87
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season one.

88
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Yeah, yeah.

89
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And if you duck out a one, you're fucking screwed.

90
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Yeah.

91
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So I don't think those people would actually seek this out.

92
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It's it's the diehard Trek fans that will watch the short Trek, you know.

93
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Yeah, I think so.

94
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But I think too, what Kurtzman Trek wants to do is it creates a whole heap of TV series which are on at the same time and which are all wildly vastly different from one another.

95
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Yeah, I like that.

96
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They're basically knocking Star Trek into all these different shapes. and kind of seeing what sticks.

97
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And if it don't really work, and I question about Discovery Series one and some of Picard series one.

98
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They're kind of reshaping it and yeah, and going a different paths.

99
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Well, that's right.

100
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I mean, you know, the serialised storytelling is present in discovery, but much, much more what Picard is about.

101
00:08:15.899 --> 00:08:24.000
You've got short treks, which is a little anthology series of short stories, all of which are sort of vastly different from one another.

102
00:08:24.060 --> 00:08:33.779
We're about to have strange new worlds, which looks like it's going to be very much more trad. nostalgic and yeah.

103
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Yeah, although I think it's going to push it from what I've seen.

104
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Certainly the cast is vastly more diverse than original series track.

105
00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:51.059
So there's a lot of experimentation which is absent, I think, largely from the Berman era.

106
00:08:51.179 --> 00:08:52.080
Oh for sure.

107
00:08:52.139 --> 00:08:54.299
Like they had a formula with bourbon trek.

108
00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:58.679
Well, DF9 broke up a beer. and when serialised.

109
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But yeah, they absolutely.

110
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They had a template and that's what they did for 21 years, you know?

111
00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:05.820
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

112
00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:06.960
Yeah, it was rough.

113
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Like, how luxurious to have time and to have the money, because they absolutely have the money to make this stuff work.

114
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Picard is one of the most beautiful looking TV shows you're going to find.

115
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And as a science fiction show.

116
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Now, you fight me all the time on using the word cinematic, but if you go and watch the last episode of season one of Picard, That is genuinely cinematic.

117
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Like the battle sequences and those big flowers and oh, God, it looks amazingly good.

118
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Yeah.

119
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Yeah.

120
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And that's the other thing too.

121
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Berman Trek was very staid visually.

122
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Um, but Kurtzman Trek is amazing looking.

123
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Just incredible.

124
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I mean, you and me have ripped at Bourbon Trek when they've tried to be more visually ambitious because they just can't do it.

125
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They have those like CSO shots of people against awful backdrops or the little CGI people walking along the landscape.

126
00:10:04.860 --> 00:10:09.360
Oh, I can see what you're trying to do, but you just don't have the money or the technology right now.

127
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Now. we have the technology.

128
00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:13.139
Yeah.

129
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I do want to mention that I do love Berman Trek despite... ripping into it.

130
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Stop this cursman, Trek.

131
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I would always go straight to Bourman Trek.

132
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I'm sorry We have to call it bourbon tray.

133
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I don't just, these are bad tastes in my mouth.

134
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Because we've got... 90s trek instead. 90s trek maybe.

135
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Well, it does leak into the 1st decade of this millennium, though.

136
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Now, ask what I put a little disclaimer before we're going to watch this as well, by the way, is the use of to me that this would be quite confronting.

137
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Boy, is it?

138
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Like this, um, children of Mars that we're going to watch. is absolutely parallelling what happened in 911, isn't it?

139
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in a very kind of emotive way.

140
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It's funny.

141
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My experience of 911 was super odd because I was off work sick.

142
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And I was on the internet and I started to hear the news.

143
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So I was awake, just because of time zones or whatever.

144
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And I started to hear the news about the towers.

145
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And it was a little while before it occurred to me that it would be being covered on television and I switched the TV on.

146
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And it was, you know, really astounding.

147
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It was so shocking.

148
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It was almost like the biggest thing that had happened in my lifetime as far as news was concerned.

149
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And you're somebody, you're quite like a news hunter.

150
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You watch a lot, yeah.

151
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Yeah, I do.

152
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I do.

153
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And you hear stories of kids being, like the TV being wheeled into the classroom or whatever, American kids watching it live on television.

154
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And you can see that happening here.

155
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That's exactly how this ends is with the school watching on these massive screens as the attack on Mars happens.

156
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And I think that.

157
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So we've done 911 before, haven't we, on Star Trek?

158
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Enterprise series 3 stroke at the end of series 2.

159
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Yeah.

160
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Yeah.

161
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And I know you and I, when you were my, I've been watching it recently, and I think I'm a lot more positive about what they were trying to do than you are.

162
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Well, you and John Billingsley, but I listen to an interview the other day and he was a poll of what they were doing in his own show.

163
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Yeah, I thought that the interview was amazingly good.

164
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The, the, um, I think the problem is that enterprise is flailing.

165
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They have a really great premise in a lot of ways.

166
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This is the 1st startership.

167
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This is the 1st time we're going to have, you know, a whole heap of things happening.

168
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Our 1st away mission, our 1st contact, all of that.

169
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And I think I was pretty positive about that last week when we did cogenitor.

170
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You know, there were really fun things about that situation that I don't think could have happened in any previous trek because we're all a little bit too jaded or too practised with meeting alien civilisations.

171
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And so that's kind of fresh, but they're, I mean, I do, I genuinely think at the end of series, they were trying to give it a shot. in the arm and they were trying to make it by appointment television again.

172
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And they were kind of trying to deal with stuff that was happening at the time as well.

173
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Like, maybe it was all a bit misguided and maybe what they were saying wasn't the right thing and maybe the way they made the characters behave was a bit appalling, like Archer becomes, you know, goes from being a dick to being a fucking prick in serious free.

174
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Yeah, yeah.

175
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I thought the violence they did to Tripp's character was pretty rough as well.

176
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Like they kill his sister and he becomes horrible and he has been becoming more and more charming throughout one and two.

177
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You say that, but then in the last third.

178
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So he's dealing with his sister's death route series three.

179
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Um, and they do an episode where he loses a crew member when the ship's attacked and he has to write a letter home to the crew members' families.

180
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And throughout the episode, he is struggling to write this letter.

181
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And then he realises that when he's talking about this crew member, the whole time he's actually thinking about his sister and it's not the crew member's death, he can't get over it. and he has a breakdown and it is remarkably sensitively handled.

182
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Like, it's characterisation I didn't think Enterprise was capable of, personally.

183
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I mean, give Conor Trinier things to do.

184
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He really is great.

185
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I'm only really just starting to realise how good he is.

186
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I think the problem is that it was just being done to inject some drama into the show and that it didn't have anything very much to say.

187
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And I also think that it's America's reaction to 911, which was, you know, war in Afghanistan and the occupation of Iran, is something, I think, that Discovery season one is addressing.

188
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And the problem in Discovery Series one is we're at war now, to what degree do we throw away our principles?

189
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When they get in the way of us prosecuting the war?

190
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Which, I think, is a worthy premise for that season, but it just gets too mired in that cheap plot twists and crappy cliffhanger.

191
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And I was like, and like, if that was the premise of that season, I really wasn't seeing it, because I felt like I was being like diverted.

192
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Lots of directions.

193
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Yeah.

194
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Yeah.

195
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Whereas this, this is very pointedly 911 because it's literally playing out like you described there.

196
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They're seeing the terrorist attack on the television screen.

197
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And the whole point of it is it unites people together in the face of that kind of terror.

198
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Um, and absolutely inform us Picard series one.

199
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And the 1st time I watched Picard series one.

200
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That was my biggest issue was that it was just a bit, it wasn't the Star Trek I loved in the 90s.

201
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It was the characters, like Picard was there and Rock and Joy turn up later on, but it was this kind of very cynical, very dark.

202
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Universe.

203
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Yeah.

204
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Now there's moments of brightness.

205
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Don't get me wrong.

206
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And there's fun characters coming along.

207
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And by the end of the season, they've kind of captured that sort of adventurous spirit again and they've worked from all.

208
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That 1st half, 1st time I watched it, that was rough.

209
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I've been watching a little bit of Picard lately and I haven't really gone back and watched it through in order and I'd quite like to do that now.

210
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My impression at the time was that there were a few episodes where they were spinning their wheels in the 1st half.

211
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Definitely.

212
00:17:06.420 --> 00:17:06.839
Yeah.

213
00:17:06.900 --> 00:17:11.519
I think the 1st episode says its stall very memorably.

214
00:17:11.579 --> 00:17:13.920
It knows what it's doing. and it commits to it.

215
00:17:13.980 --> 00:17:15.420
God, it looks good.

216
00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:16.619
It looks amazingly good.

217
00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:24.839
And the last episode, I think as a culmination of the season, is one of the best trek finales, like across the franchise.

218
00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:25.980
It makes me cross.

219
00:17:26.099 --> 00:17:28.680
What comes in between?

220
00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:31.140
Oh, get to that.

221
00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:37.440
What comes in between is there's a lot of padding in between.

222
00:17:37.500 --> 00:17:40.200
There's a lot of interminable scenes in the ball cube.

223
00:17:40.259 --> 00:17:44.940
There's some divergence like hue and things like that that I don't think are entirely necessary.

224
00:17:45.059 --> 00:17:52.200
Um, Yeah, so it's it's a real mixed back and I didn't like it the 1st time I watched it.

225
00:17:52.259 --> 00:17:55.259
I'm starting to watch it through again now knowing.

226
00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:56.759
Yeah, I've seen it once.

227
00:17:56.819 --> 00:18:09.480
And actually, I'm seeing far more strengths, but it's almost like the further into the season I go, the more pacing issues they get, and the more I kind of miss the old episodic trek.

228
00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:10.740
Yeah, yeah.

229
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:12.720
And the old episodic trek didn't go away.

230
00:18:12.779 --> 00:18:16.440
It's over on discovery at the moment, you know, so lower decks.

231
00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:18.900
Yeah, Picard is free to do something else.

232
00:18:19.380 --> 00:18:32.039
But what Picard has is a reaction to 911, more like the American reaction where we get angry and isolationist, and we have Picard resigning from Starfleet kind of as a result of that.

233
00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:39.900
I bloody love that scene, you know, where he says, I told them that if they don't listen to me, I'm going to resign.

234
00:18:40.140 --> 00:18:42.839
Oh my god, well, they wouldn't have done that.

235
00:18:42.900 --> 00:18:43.859
No, they asked me to resign.

236
00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:44.880
Yeah, yeah.

237
00:18:44.940 --> 00:18:46.079
Well, and that's it.

238
00:18:46.140 --> 00:19:00.720
So we have Picard, who is where Starfleet's basic ideals, or the Federation's basic ideals are still located at a time when the Federation has been frightened into abandoning those ideals.

239
00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:06.480
And he says, doesn't he, when he does that interview, he says, because it wasn't Starfleet.

240
00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:07.799
Yeah, yeah.

241
00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:08.759
Really angrily.

242
00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:09.960
Like, that's a great scene.

243
00:19:10.019 --> 00:19:10.799
Yeah.

244
00:19:10.859 --> 00:19:40.019
And that is the thing that Kurtzman Trek is doing, and I maintain it is because it's a late Trump post-Trump phenomenon where we've had 20 years of America being at war and then culminating in this sort of kind of racist demagogue coming in and sort of trampling over democratic ideals and the continuing threat to American democracy that still persists.

245
00:19:40.200 --> 00:20:00.539
It's a lovely idea, isn't it, of taking, you know, kind of the consequences of 20 years of war, transplanting it into the future, and then showing how we're trying to move on from that, and how, you know, this, the old trek idea of we're better than this, and we can get there.

246
00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:01.619
We can get there again.

247
00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:03.720
We've been there and we can get there again.

248
00:20:03.779 --> 00:20:13.500
And so those people, I think, who initially criticised Kursman Trek for not being trek enough, for not having those ideals enough.

249
00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:30.000
I think that they're wrong because I think that the whole of Discovery Series one is about responding to war or conflict or difficulty by clinging more closely to those ideals and clearly Picard's about that.

250
00:20:30.059 --> 00:20:31.440
And that's what this is about.

251
00:20:31.500 --> 00:20:37.380
This is about a terrible tragedy that unites people who are in conflict.

252
00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:41.400
And I think it's very, very deftly done in a very short amount of time.

253
00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:44.400
Do you mean this episode or this season?

254
00:20:44.460 --> 00:20:45.180
this episode.

255
00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:47.460
Oh, I mean, we'll go into this in a second.

256
00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:58.680
I think my only, like, my, my biggest objection is, I think Picard is trying to be a little too nasty, and it does terrible things to its characters at times.

257
00:20:58.740 --> 00:21:00.539
I really don't like that.

258
00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:03.299
That feels very not Star Trek to me.

259
00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:04.200
Yeah, yeah.

260
00:21:04.259 --> 00:21:07.980
I think it's kind of trying to occupy a Game of Thrones sort of space.

261
00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:09.299
Yeah.

262
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:14.519
And, you know, we can have a Star Trek that does that, I think, provided that's not all we get.

263
00:21:14.579 --> 00:21:20.460
I mean, he was a terrible fucking character, that each ship. but gouging out his eye and killing him before.

264
00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:21.660
I mean, that was terrible.

265
00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:25.380
Unfortunately, Borg, you know, like being murdered off.

266
00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:28.500
It was like they would literally try taking Next Gen and Voyager.

267
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:31.740
I'm just like, you know, assassinating as many people as possible.

268
00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:34.619
Anyway, should we go into children of Mars?

269
00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:36.119
I think we probably should.

270
00:21:36.180 --> 00:21:37.200
I've got it queued up.

271
00:21:37.259 --> 00:21:38.700
Okey dokey.

272
00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:40.079
Shall I count us in?

273
00:21:40.140 --> 00:21:41.279
I'm ready.

274
00:21:41.339 --> 00:21:42.839
All right.

275
00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:47.880
Five, four, three, two, one.

276
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:49.980
And we're off.

277
00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:53.220
So this is Kima.

278
00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:55.619
And...

279
00:21:55.619 --> 00:21:59.519
This thing I do with their tongue.

280
00:21:59.579 --> 00:22:01.019
It's adorable, isn't it?

281
00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:02.039
The mum is so nice.

282
00:22:02.099 --> 00:22:04.440
Is that a special effect or is that?

283
00:22:04.619 --> 00:22:05.039
Yeah, yeah.

284
00:22:05.099 --> 00:22:06.059
I think it's a special effect.

285
00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:09.059
I mean, I'm sorry, just look at the shipyard.

286
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:11.460
It's beautiful, isn't it?

287
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:13.019
And then there's Lil.

288
00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:23.759
And I think that this is cleverly done because although they both go to the same school, they're coded as different racially, aren't they?

289
00:22:23.819 --> 00:22:29.220
So, you know, um, Kima is, is brown.

290
00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:33.480
She has different skin and eye colour from Lil.

291
00:22:33.539 --> 00:22:35.819
Lil is a white girl.

292
00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:42.299
Kima's mother seems to be some kind of technician and the father seems to be a supervisor.

293
00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:46.259
So it's almost like there's a class distinction there as well.

294
00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:51.599
So does Lil bump into chemo because she's got the shits because she's had a fight.

295
00:22:51.660 --> 00:22:53.099
Oh, that's the other difference too.

296
00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:54.779
A nice family relationship.

297
00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:57.960
Kema has a friendly relationship with mom.

298
00:22:58.019 --> 00:22:59.700
And the other one is slightly more contentious.

299
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:04.140
Yeah, well, Lil hangs up on him and that's the last time she ever speaks to him as well.

300
00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:05.519
Can you imagine?

301
00:23:05.579 --> 00:23:09.240
That hates more than anything because when you see her, it's almost like she knows.

302
00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:11.220
The last time she spoke to her dad.

303
00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:12.779
Oh, it's so good.

304
00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:16.140
Now you wanted to talk about that bus coming down, didn't you?

305
00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:17.880
I just think it looks amazing.

306
00:23:17.940 --> 00:23:29.339
And one of the things that I love is when Star Trek does Earth, because Star Trek on easy mode is a spaceship with a bunch of people in space and that's where Picard eventually lands.

307
00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:33.900
But what's interesting is seeing them create the 24th century on Earth.

308
00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:38.940
And so this school, this is, I think it's a university building in Toronto, actually.

309
00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:42.359
I think the school is beautiful.

310
00:23:42.420 --> 00:23:45.359
I think you know, these holograms look amazing.

311
00:23:45.420 --> 00:23:49.200
It's something that Picard does exceptionally well.

312
00:23:49.259 --> 00:23:50.880
Every time they go back to Earth.

313
00:23:50.940 --> 00:23:58.680
And I said to you, it's almost like a mix of contemporary and very futuristic and they kind of blend the 2 seamlessly.

314
00:23:58.740 --> 00:23:59.279
It's wonderful.

315
00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:00.420
Look at this classroom.

316
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:02.519
Look how beautiful the location is.

317
00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:05.880
Oh, Kema's life.

318
00:24:05.940 --> 00:24:12.299
You know what, we're talking about talking about like the, um, the tension between the 2 characters and the racial turn.

319
00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:14.579
I think that was absolutely there in Berman Trek as well.

320
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:19.079
Do you remember Mendon, the guy with the, the, what was it, the Benzite?

321
00:24:19.140 --> 00:24:25.500
And and and that and they were they were a bit rude about him and there's talk about them being racist about the Ferengi in the academy.

322
00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:30.119
It's supposed to be this enlightened universe, but I still think there's the old tensions there.

323
00:24:30.180 --> 00:24:36.720
Yeah, well, but I do think that the reason that they're different isn't just for the plot here, it is symbolic.

324
00:24:36.779 --> 00:24:46.799
It is 2 people with very different backgrounds who are, uh, you know, literally come to blows as this is happening.

325
00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:48.119
The fight is vicious.

326
00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:49.619
It's really vicious.

327
00:24:50.099 --> 00:24:51.660
Yeah, yeah.

328
00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:52.920
It's really well done.

329
00:24:52.980 --> 00:24:54.660
It's brilliantly done.

330
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:56.880
Do you know what's weird about this?

331
00:24:56.940 --> 00:25:00.900
What makes this such an aberration is I think this as a piece.

332
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:01.559
Yeah.

333
00:25:01.619 --> 00:25:07.740
It's it's small and it absolutely has a mission and it's committed to it.

334
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:09.480
Whereas Picard as a whole.

335
00:25:09.539 --> 00:25:11.940
It's flounders and it's all over the bloody place.

336
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:16.859
I think it's, I think the card's less like that on a 2nd viewing, I have to say.

337
00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:18.119
We'll see.

338
00:25:18.180 --> 00:25:18.599
We'll see.

339
00:25:18.660 --> 00:25:19.740
Oh, wow.

340
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:20.460
Look at this.

341
00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:21.359
Yeah, yeah.

342
00:25:21.420 --> 00:25:23.759
It's really properly violent.

343
00:25:23.819 --> 00:25:26.400
And it's great seeing 2 girls going at it, you know?

344
00:25:26.460 --> 00:25:28.619
Yeah, I was wondering about that as well.

345
00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:33.420
I'm glad that it's girls, who are the 2 leads in this, and I think they're both really good.

346
00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:36.480
And I love how this is mostly done with no dialogue.

347
00:25:36.539 --> 00:25:38.460
So can we talk about the song?

348
00:25:38.519 --> 00:25:51.720
It's written by David Bowie and Brian Eno, and it talks about us being heroes as the, as the sort of, um, what does it say?

349
00:25:51.779 --> 00:25:55.440
And the guns shot above our heads and we kissed as though nothing could fall.

350
00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:59.880
It's a stunning song, and this is a terrific version.

351
00:25:59.940 --> 00:26:01.680
I just think and it suits the action.

352
00:26:01.740 --> 00:26:03.599
Like, I...

353
00:26:03.660 --> 00:26:05.339
Did you notice how they showed the blood on her nose?

354
00:26:05.400 --> 00:26:09.359
I think it was that was deliberate to show, you know, she's an alien.

355
00:26:09.420 --> 00:26:10.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

356
00:26:10.500 --> 00:26:10.859
Yeah.

357
00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:18.480
And so, and so, the being a heroes thing is the final shot.

358
00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:30.000
It's them overcoming their enmity and their differences, them responding to this horrific tragedy by unifying.

359
00:26:30.059 --> 00:26:36.299
And that's that's the reaction we should have had to 911 and that's not the reaction.

360
00:26:36.359 --> 00:26:41.759
And it's not the reaction that the Federation has in Pecan as well.

361
00:26:41.819 --> 00:26:53.819
Like the Federation reacts, but by being isolationist, by abandoning the Romulans, who are, you know, just refugees, you know, it's got a really strong political thing.

362
00:26:53.940 --> 00:27:00.660
I don't think there's something very irresponsible about putting this terror attack on all these screens for the children to see.

363
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:02.460
Well, no, but I mean, that's what happened.

364
00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:06.359
People were taken away and I think that's irresponsible as well, though.

365
00:27:06.420 --> 00:27:12.720
Well, I think kids, I think kids can cope and I think that kids, I think it was worth doing.

366
00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:15.900
I, you know, this is an important thing.

367
00:27:15.900 --> 00:27:19.019
And I think they kind of, I think they needed to see it.

368
00:27:19.140 --> 00:27:22.140
And this scene, look how many extras there are.

369
00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:23.700
Look how big this space is.

370
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:27.599
Yeah, this is not, this is not a scrimp production.

371
00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:28.980
This is a polished piece.

372
00:27:29.460 --> 00:27:33.240
And those shots, the synth shots, look amazing.

373
00:27:34.259 --> 00:27:41.819
And when you actually see this attack taking place. like in the facility, it doesn't disappoint.

374
00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:43.740
I mean, it's really good.

375
00:27:43.799 --> 00:27:47.039
Oh, look at that, the planet. incredible.

376
00:27:47.099 --> 00:28:00.599
And now they're both remembering their parents and she's lost, you know, Keema's lost someone who she loves who she had a fun relationship with and there's Lil remembering hanging up on him.

377
00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:02.220
It's awful.

378
00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:05.339
It's just, it's so hard.

379
00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:09.059
And just to have like just to make it an ad for Picard for a second.

380
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:11.940
Well, yeah, it's amazing. by looking grim.

381
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:13.859
I can't even imagine.

382
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:21.240
I can't even imagine what people went through losing loved ones in such a pointless way.

383
00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:23.160
It must have just been heartbreaking.

384
00:28:23.220 --> 00:28:24.599
That's beautiful final shot.

385
00:28:24.660 --> 00:28:27.420
And that's what we go out on is them linking hands.

386
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:29.519
But that Star Trek, isn't it?

387
00:28:29.579 --> 00:28:33.480
They're literally saying this is how we should have done it.

388
00:28:33.539 --> 00:28:35.220
This is how we could have been, you know?

389
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:35.880
Yeah.

390
00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:40.440
In the most cynical of all Star Trek shows.

391
00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:52.380
But there's a moment where Kima looks at Lil and she weeps, like there's a tear, and the actor, she just looks so vulnerable.

392
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:54.299
It's so beautifully done.

393
00:28:54.359 --> 00:28:59.819
Do you think it would have been worth going back to these characters in the actual series or this just stands?

394
00:28:59.880 --> 00:29:05.940
One of the things that I like is the self-containedness of it.

395
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:18.779
There are a couple of instances where characters, like Saru's sister, turn up in short treks 1st and then find their way into discovery.

396
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:23.940
Remember that this is some years before Picard is set.

397
00:29:24.660 --> 00:29:27.240
Is it 15 years or something?

398
00:29:27.299 --> 00:29:30.299
Like it's a considerable amount of time.

399
00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:32.700
Because a lot's happened with him, isn't it?

400
00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:35.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. like he's he's in the vineyard.

401
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:36.960
He retires, you know?

402
00:29:37.019 --> 00:29:37.500
Yeah.

403
00:29:37.500 --> 00:29:38.220
Yeah.

404
00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:39.420
Yeah.

405
00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:47.880
Oh, I just think this is properly good and that it manages to have a worthwhile political message.

406
00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:50.279
You know, without much dialogue.

407
00:29:50.339 --> 00:29:54.000
There's the 2 voiceovers at the beginning, but there's basically no dialogue.

408
00:29:54.059 --> 00:29:59.880
Also, as well, I think, because this was the 1st piece of Picard that made it to air.

409
00:29:59.940 --> 00:30:02.940
I don't think this is what people were expecting at all.

410
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:06.720
So it's kind of a shocking like, okay.

411
00:30:06.779 --> 00:30:08.880
This is what you're going to get, guys. you know.

412
00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:14.099
It probably excited people a lot because it's very different from what kind of Star Trek has been before.

413
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:26.640
But what I'd like to say is that I think this is this as a piece of drama is actually more effective than half a dozen of the Star Trek Picard episodes.

414
00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:38.220
So people should absolutely go and seek out these short tracks. and see what they're about because I think, I mean, I've not seen the other nine, but if that's an example of how good they can be.

415
00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:39.960
Sign me up.

416
00:30:40.019 --> 00:30:40.500
Yeah.

417
00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:56.099
I would recommend Calypso, which I think is astonishingly good, and has some background to the Zora character, actually, long before Zora became a character in Discovery, and Trouble with Edward, for sure.

418
00:30:56.160 --> 00:31:00.779
I mean, there were several that you didn't recommend because we went through that randomiser about 5 bloody times.

419
00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:15.359
In fact, I think the, is it the girl who made the stars, which is one of the ones that we rejected, I think it's extremely good, I just wasn't sure I was able to talk about it, to give it justice.

420
00:31:15.420 --> 00:31:18.059
I think it's extremely good as well.

421
00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:25.200
And there's another one called E-Framen Dot, which I think is wonderful, just tremendous.

422
00:31:25.259 --> 00:31:26.759
But a lot of them are very good.

423
00:31:26.819 --> 00:31:28.019
Like I'm a big fan.

424
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:36.359
There's one or 2 I'm yet to see, but I think absolutely there's a lot of really excellent Star Trek in there.

425
00:31:36.420 --> 00:31:45.299
All I can say is, is, that is the typical example of a short trek, then I am salimating cigarette.

426
00:31:49.799 --> 00:32:00.059
All right, so it's time for us to choose next week's episode, and can you tell the listener, Joe, what we're choosing and why?

427
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:03.299
That is something that I would absolutely love to do for the listener.

428
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:10.380
It's on the back of us doing the short treks of Picard.

429
00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:17.039
It's it's basically, you know, we are we have dipped into a couple of series twice now and we haven't touched upon Picard at all.

430
00:32:17.099 --> 00:32:20.759
And there's so much to talk about with Picard.

431
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:21.599
So much.

432
00:32:21.660 --> 00:32:31.259
It's the 1st kind of reinvention of a Star Trek show like this because it's essentially But it's not it's not TNG, is it?

433
00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:33.480
But it's got a lot of TNG in it.

434
00:32:33.539 --> 00:32:36.539
Okay, so we're going to be doing Star Trek Picard.

435
00:32:36.599 --> 00:32:48.480
It's probably the Kurtzman trek I find most problematic as well. for a lot of reasons, whilst I acknowledge that come the end of the season, I was completely on board.

436
00:32:48.539 --> 00:32:51.480
So it's not like I'm rejecting it outright.

437
00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:53.640
And my finger is on the button.

438
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:55.619
Okay, all right.

439
00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:56.460
Give it a press.

440
00:32:56.700 --> 00:32:58.559
Oh, no.

441
00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:06.240
Well, I think it's the 1st part of the 2 part finale.

442
00:33:06.299 --> 00:33:10.140
It's called XN Arcadia Ego part one.

443
00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:12.839
Yeah, Eddie Nut, Arkadia, Ego.

444
00:33:12.900 --> 00:33:17.640
So it's some, yeah, no, that's the one where they're going down to that planet and it's just like 90s trek, isn't it?

445
00:33:17.700 --> 00:33:19.019
Or the Android planet.

446
00:33:19.500 --> 00:33:21.420
Should we have a single episode?

447
00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:22.079
Yeah, push it again.

448
00:33:22.140 --> 00:33:22.920
Yeah, yeah.

449
00:33:22.980 --> 00:33:24.059
That's the only 2 parter.

450
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:26.519
Well, I don't know what this is at all.

451
00:33:26.579 --> 00:33:27.359
Nepenthe?

452
00:33:27.420 --> 00:33:28.619
No, no, no.

453
00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:32.579
Nepenthe is the episode, I think, with Riker and Troy.

454
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:45.720
So this is absolutely gold and no one here listening knows that we edited out 5 minutes of me researching to... to find out what that is.

455
00:33:45.779 --> 00:33:48.599
We're so sophisticated in our Star Trek knowledge, you know.

456
00:33:48.660 --> 00:33:51.240
Yeah, no, just sophisticated at editing.

457
00:33:51.299 --> 00:33:55.019
The later it gets, I get very ropey on episode time.

458
00:33:55.079 --> 00:34:02.640
Well, there's no on-screen episode titles in Kurtzman track, except for Lower Decks, obviously, and on prodigy.

459
00:34:02.700 --> 00:34:07.140
But the grown-up shows don't...

460
00:34:07.140 --> 00:34:10.920
But the non-animated shows don't have on-screen title.

461
00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:12.119
Question, that assertion, you know.

462
00:34:12.539 --> 00:34:15.239
It's like calling Torch with grown up.

463
00:34:16.380 --> 00:34:19.440
This is the episode, I think.

464
00:34:19.619 --> 00:34:25.380
This is what people were expecting with Picard. and what they got.

465
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:32.159
So this is a really interesting 1st episode to do because I think Nepenthe is basically what some of season two.

466
00:34:32.219 --> 00:34:35.460
There was a great reaction to Nepenthe, wasn't there?

467
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:36.659
Yeah, yeah.

468
00:34:36.780 --> 00:34:46.679
I think, you know, like we'll talk about it, but I think that there are enough original characters in Picard who are interesting and maybe one who's super tedious.

469
00:34:46.739 --> 00:34:50.460
And one who is insanely hot as well.

470
00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:51.780
Oh real.

471
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:52.320
God, yes.

472
00:34:52.380 --> 00:34:54.059
Well, 2 who are insanely hot.

473
00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:55.679
I think that they're Australian.

474
00:34:55.739 --> 00:34:59.699
The little Australian Romulan, I think, is really...

475
00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:03.840
Anyway, we'll talk more about that next week.

476
00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:17.880
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomleaf.

477
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:24.360
You can find us online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.

478
00:35:24.420 --> 00:35:30.059
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

479
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:35.940
This episode was recorded on the 30th of January 2022 and released on the 4th of February.

480
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:40.739
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Picard, the Pencil.