Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, this week, we're back aboard Deep Space Nine, which is a place
where we like to be, but we are in series one, episode 10, a very
early episode. famous episodes.
And a very famous one, one that is not super highly regarded, I
think.
It's series one, episode 10.
Move along home.
A la Marie.
So, I have to say that I didn't hate this, and for a while I
thought it was reasonably good.
I think it falls to pieces and I think the biggest problem with it
is that it's really early.
No one's nailed how to do it yet.
No one's performance is right.
You know, everything is kind of odd.
But I mean, we were chatting about this the other night.
And I don't think that every episode of Deep Space 9 needs to be
duet or progress or in the hands of the prophets.
These is a perfectly reasonable thing for Deep Space 9 to attempt
to do, but it doesn't really come off, does it?
Well, by the time DS9 gets his acting over, we're doing episodes
like this, you know, the quirky sidestep comedy, sort of episode
but we're doing one little ship, where a tiny shrunken runabout is
zooming about, blasting Gemadil's to death, or take me out to the
hollow suite, that fabulous baseball episode, and in last season
you know, these are faltering early steps. for DS9.
But I do have one very positive thing to say about this, if I may
because I wish to make a comparison between this and a TV show you
know nothing about.
Is it better?
Babylon 5.
And I wish to insanely use move on home as the reason why DS9 is
infinitely superior to Babylon 5.
Because when Babylon 5 is bad, right?
Like, move along home is bad, it's shit, it's kind of fun, but
it's really shit.
When Babylon 5 is shit.
It's just really boring, right?
Because it doesn't do quirky things like this.
It does the same things it's always doing because it just has a
template.
But in a really dull, worthy, sort of serious kind of a way, you
know, the worst kind of television.
Whereas when Star Trek in the 90s is bad, you know, I'll throw in
Genesis and Sub Rosa and move along home, I mean, it's truly
abysmal television, right?
Absolutely not the TV that you'd show to your friends to say, watch
this show.
But it's just weird and idiosyncratic, and it's got some
personality to it, and it fails in all kinds of ways, but I love
the fact that they tried, you know, and they said, we're not just
going to do politics and we're not just going to do this.
We're going to try all these different flavours and see what
works.
And that is why, that is why I think DS9 is better than Babylon.
It just puts on so many more hats, you know, and as a result, I
think it's a more engaging experience because you never quite know
what you're going to get.
You probably shouldn't get this, but you do, and we should be
grateful for it.
I think that there is a story here somewhere that just doesn't
quite come off, and part of it's clearly for budgetary reasons, and
there is a kind of lack of imagination about how to kind of
realise things.
But clearly it's our 1st contact with a race from the Gamma
Quadrant, and it's a race that has a sort of very Star Trek
quirk.
You know, they're obsessed with games and they think about things
in terms of games.
And it's fun.
That was a fun idea.
Yeah, that's fun.
But it turns out that Quark is well equipped to deal with them and
that the Starfleet crew, whose job it is to make 1st contact, are
very bad at it to the point where they don't understand what's
going on when it comes to, you know, finding themselves involved
in the game and they don't understand that a game is supposed to
be fun and that people don't generally get killed in the course of
a normal game.
And so their Starfleet way of reacting to the game doesn't really
work very well, whereas Quarks works a bit better.
But even that I'm probably trying to read something worthwhile
into it, but there is something there.
Like that's almost a thing.
And it's muddied by the fact that it's just terribly badly
realised and it doesn't quite come off.
But it doesn't seem to me to be a completely misconceived idea.
I agree.
I think this would make a fantastic, strange New Worlds episode.
This concept, you know, with those characters where you can
visualise it in such a brilliant way now.
This could be absolutely fantastic, but I do think they would
realise that the Starfleet people were, the players maybe about 5
minutes into the episode.
It takes us about 25 minutes for our characters here to realise
what's going on.
I was going, come on now, and there's even a shot of quark.
It's so dumb, court going, and then the camera pans really slowly
over to the pieces, like we hadn't figured it out.
Yeah.
I like, we've been doing it for 20 minutes, for God's sakes, you
know?
Like, this is not the sort of episode that they would do, maybe
even from like series 2 onwards.
I don't think they would touch something like Move Along Home.
Because this is something you could do on, Voyager, this is
something you could do on TNG.
And they did push away from that a lot when they realised what
they could do on this show.
But in all of these experiments that they're doing in one.
So Q coming along, Mrs. Troy coming along, all these sort of TNG
knockoffs that they're doing.
I do think this is probably the most fun idea of all.
You're right, though.
It's just so cheap.
It's so cheap. and their imagination doesn't extend beyond glowing
balls and choking gas and stock cave set number 58, which we're
going to spend a lot of time in. is terrible, the worst thing
about the episode, I think.
Although the melodramatic slow motion fall, and we'll get there is
absolutely hilarious because they all literally, no one's who
needed jeopardy.
They just throw themselves off.
I've had enough of this bullshit.
I'm going over But yeah, I mean, I think I think we'll probably
find some nice things to say, but we'll mostly be going, oh, what
were they thinking?
Yeah, I think so.
I think so.
One other thing there was a recent episode last year, series 4 of
Lower Decks, called in the Cradle of Vexilon, where the B plot
involved, I think basically everyone except Boemler, getting the
job of cleaning out a sort of artefacts store on the ship, and
there is a game of Chula in that.
And I think Rutherford briefly participates in the game and we get
to see little child. whatever.
Lower decks would not forget move along home.
Everyone else is trying to forget about it, but lower deck, so
cherry pick, the best and the worst.
Yeah, absolutely I just want to like maybe that mouth just turn up
just one time and go, move along, move along home in the lower
decks episode.
That would be quite fun.
Well, what do you think?
Should we go in?
Yes, please.
Oh, I mean, I just can't wait to watch it again with you.
I mean, I was spending the majority of the episode sort of shaking
my head going, oh, dear.
Also thinking, I can't wait to talk about this for Nathan.
All right.
In that case, I will count us in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
I mean, I would say there's more to this than dramatis persona, you
know, there was just nothing to that at all.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that was a sort of weird high concept thing, wasn't it?
Look how just, um, unthreatening Avery is in this seat.
So, so I think the scene is adorable partly because, um, he little
Zurich is so tiny and so adorable and it's quite...
I'd like to address this because people have, you know, come to
think that I have a thing about children, all right, in TV shows
because I spend so much of my podcast in time, criticising
dreadful children actors.
He is so good.
He's so good.
He is.
He is pretty good.
He is pretty great.
Um, this is very cute though.
I mean, he's so tiny and, you know, he leaves the show 7 years
later.
He's sort of over 6 foot tall.
Oh, but he a molf.
Well, he's still sort of fairly slim.
He's not enormous, but he's and, you know, he's an attractive
young man by that point.
Here he's just kind of adorable.
And this, I think, is really important and I was expecting it to
pay off at the end of the episode and it doesn't.
And the reason for this is, of course, it's setting up the B plot
in the Nagus, which we've already talked about, which I think is
absolutely beautiful, like really, really stunningly great. doesn't
it?
The bit where Cisco discovers Jake teaching him to read. and just
silently smiles and leaves away.
Because even here, you know, there's some idea, like he calls him
the Ferengi boy and he's kind of racist and dismissive about him
while he's having this conversation about 1st contact with another
alien race.
And it's Jake, who, in that plot, is really properly making
contact with a new species.
You know, like, I think, like, that's a beautiful subplot, you can
hear our episode on that, hear us talk about it because I thought
it was really great, but I'm glad that that's what that's doing
they were making the parallels here.
I mean, you just gave it a brilliant reading there.
Is that deliberate?
Well, I think in the Nagus, yeah, I think so because he's a
Starfleet person.
Do you know what I mean?
And it's our job to forge alliances and friendships and stuff
between species and he's doing it.
And, you know, like, it's that wonderful mode, isn't it, where he
kind of discovers that his son is so much better than he expected
him to be, that his son is a marvellous, loving, kind young man.
I think it's beautiful.
But also as well, you think about where Nog and Cisco end up as
well.
Like he's saying something, I don't want you to hang out with that
kid.
The last act he does in the very last episode is to recommend Nog
for a lieutenant's pip.
Yeah, yeah.
Can I just say as well, Bashir, right?
Bashir and Kira in this episode?
Because absolute, Kira, they now, somewhere in the middle of
season one, like, yeah, they, but there are some, she's not, he
yeah, faltering early stemstone.
In this episode, she's just pissed.
She's just angry.
That's her character in this.
But she, my God.
They don't nail him until about two-thirds of the way through
series two.
That's when they figure out how to write him and Sid really
figures out how to play him.
And there's moments before that.
But this and the passenger is probably the Nadir of Dr. Bashir in
Star Trek.
Yeah, oh, he's terrible in this.
It's like really quite terrible.
I really candy reaction he does.
Yeah, no, I just think he doesn't know how to play it at all.
And it's really bad.
Like, he's quite terrible and much, much worse than I remember.
We've seen series one episodes with him in it, but I think he's
particularly bad here.
I do remember him being bad in the passenger, which is around
about now, isn't it?
That's when he gets to play evil and has the immortal lion.
Not at all, gentlemen.
I've been expecting you.
Yeah, I wondered whether he'd watched Doctor Who or something. you
know, like because he's playing it in that sort of slightly too
big a way.
I mean, you know, Star Trek is played slightly big.
It's not played sort of purely naturalistically, but he's too
big.
He's really good with him, don't they?
That he is a more interesting character when paired up with other
gray characters.
So they realise he's brilliant when he's with O'Brien.
They learn that as they go.
He's brilliant with Garak.
So they learn that as they go.
But they're just not there.
You know, so they're just writing him as arrogant Starfleet doctor
who's a bit camp.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he improves, like that he plays it so much better.
I think even Terry is not very good in this.
No, I thought I didn't even think Nanole was that great.
The bit where she goes, the bit where she goes, this is not what I
signed up for.
So bad.
That was exactly the bit I was about to mention as well.
It's terrible What's the scriptwriter reading?
when he heard this script together.
But it wasn't just the script.
I mean, that is a weird thing for her to say, a weird thing for
Kira to say, I'm a Bajoran administrator.
I didn't sign up for this.
It's like you're a fucking terrorist.
Like, what are you talking about?
Remember in progress that we watched where she was like, I don't
want to be a fucking administrator.
I'm stuck with this job, right?
But it was her performance was just not very good.
And, like, I don't remember noticing that stuff in the Nagas.
See, even there's even scenes here that Armond kind of flubs as
well. that really surprised me.
I mean, I think he's mostly great.
And they've realised, yeah, they've realised they've got a super
weapon in Armin Shimmerman and Quark because Quark is an
arsehole.
And we've never really had an arsehole as a regular before like
this.
So they really lean into it in series one and give him lots of, but
there's a bit towards the end of this episode, which is just
cringe.
Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah.
So this is fallow and he's the leader of the Wadi.
And clearly as well, we're experimenting with how we can make our
aliens look.
How do you think this comes off?
Where would you put this on the bow mask scale?
I think I'd give them maybe a 7.5 , you know?
They've got, you know, sort of weird tattoos on their heads, but
that's it.
That's perhaps not such a great choice, I think, the weird tattoos
on the head, I have to say.
Well, if they don't have the tattoos.
I've got nothing.
They've just got a costume.
Yeah, they just look like people.
That might be okay, though. people with sort of swept back
luxurious hair.
Yeah, yeah.
And sort of spangly clothes and stuff.
I mean, you know, it is a, it's, we've decided not to do latex
this week and that's kind of a great relief, but I just don't know
and it's telling that we tend not to do aliens like this again.
This is the week we choose to allow to see the actors' faces this
week of all the weeks where we couldn't have slapped latex on
people's face.
Oh I did love this line.
There's some great lines here where he goes, 0 no.
I've got enough sticks.
Thank you very much.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is about the drink.
One man's.
What is it?
One man's neck is another man's poison or something.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I actually think, and again.
So we actually see Quak making 1st contact after Cisco is checked
out.
Um, and and so there is something there.
We later see quite going on sort of delegations, don't we?
Like he goes into the gamma quadrant and stuff.
A couple times, yeah.
Well, I mean, he's forced to.
He's blackmailed mostly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But recognising that he has something that they don't. those
gemstones, right?
It's like the cheapest looking, you know, crappy stones that you
can buy in any, knock off. gone to a new age shop. store, yeah.
Eyes glittering, you know?
Oh, I see, I kind of like every bit with Cisco before he goes in
the game.
Because I like this as well.
I was remembering 1st contact and learning about it.
Yeah, and all of that.
I just like it when he hangs with Cork.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I quite like, you know, he's fed up.
He's he's done it.
And we haven't seen Starfleet, people be like this very much.
It's kind of like, no, I just want to go to bed.
This is tedious.
Yeah, like actual morning and stuff.
I can't imagine a more uncomfortable looking bed than what they
have on DS Noid.
Oh, really?
Have you seen them?
Yeah, they've got these all weird triangular cushions that are
only about an inch thick.
And it's basically like a bio bit.
It's horrible.
Oh, really?
I mean, I think the costumier has gone crazy in this episode.
They're all wearing good.
You know that's great.
Lots of Spangly stuff.
This guy, I can't work out.
I don't think that's a press on moustache, but I think it might be
enhanced.
Do you think?
Um, follow's moustache.
Like, it looks real, except the ends of it.
It's got a sort of Anthony Ainley-ish look about it, but that's
such a niche reference that you Star Trek fans will understand
that.
No, we talk about BBC Press on beards quite a lot in Doctor Who
fandom and so that's a sort of thing that we have here.
But like, I actually think that he plays it really well, doesn't
he?
He's pretty good, this guy.
Oh, no, I think he's brilliant, and he has to do some pretty weird
stuff going on, you know, all that sort of laughing away in that
smoky room and all that.
But I love this where he goes, break.
You just ripped a ball swindler, you know, as he's...
I always knew you was up to no good, but it is good that the
what's his name?
Fallow, the wadi, the guy's in charge of the wadi.
He's smart enough to just recognise straight away he's being
conned, isn't he?
And that's what the game looks like it's going to be, but now here
we have the sort of 2nd scene and maybe the last scene, isn't it
of this B plot with Jake and Cisco.
And like, he's the one who is clearly being unreasonable.
Like Cisco's clearly being unreasonable.
I've done nothing for the last 6 hours, but eat Frankie Lokar
beans and watch people play childish games.
All right, that sounds like a pretty good job to me.
Yeah, yeah.
But the childish games thing too.
Do you know what I mean?
That he's dismissive of games, right?
Um, because he doesn't understand them and, and, you know, like he
can't operate in that world.
Whereas Quiet can.
And so Quark is valuable to him in a way that he perhaps doesn't
realise.
And what looks like this episode's going to be is that causes a
diplomatic incident by cheating.
Yeah.
And then it immediately reverses, doesn't it?
No, we're going to play our game now.
Yeah, yeah.
Which, again, I don't think is a bad premise.
No, no, I don't think it is either.
And I even think that the idea of having the players, I think, part
of the problem, here are the problems, I think.
The Chula, it's called Chula, I think the game.
Um, the board and the environment share no kind of um, you know
similarities.
Like they don't, you can't, like you, they don't look similar.
There's no visual cues that associates them.
I think the board for Chula is actually pretty good.
Oh, I think it looks really good.
And the way it just appears into the set.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I think what's good about it is that we can see the different
shaps, like the levels are important and so we see the shaps
they're clearly visible, but it's just massive.
It's massive.
You know, they love these sort of geometric shapes in 90s, don't
they?
But it's like an enormous version of that chess game that spot
plays.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But also you can shoot through it at the characters.
So the characters are frequently standing behind it and it's in
front of them without obscuring their faces.
And so no one's looking down at a board on the table.
Instead, you're looking at this prop, and I think that works
really well.
Well, the thing I really didn't like about this was, you're right
there's no visualisation on the board of what's happening in the
actual game itself.
And there's no ball game in the world where you wouldn't visualise
what's going on.
So what pleasure does the person playing get from this game?
If you can't see what the others are doing, All you can see is
that you're moving bits around this board and occasionally
knocking them over.
And he goes, oh, I can see why people love playing this game.
Why?
No, it makes no sense.
And they don't sell.
Yeah, this is a good shot.
I did like this shot, yeah.
I mean, more try.
They love a triangle, don't they?
But also it sells the board game thing.
You know, it's like, you know, there's like spots on a board.
Like, I think that works really well.
It was the older moment where I was like, oh, my God, with more
money and a bit a lot more imagination, they could do this.
It just wasn't enough of it.
It's just too many of these gold corridors and rock faces.
It's horribly 90s.
You know how we talked about Ferengi Love songs a couple of weeks
ago and just how hideous the sets were on Ferengi, like Moogie's
house and stuff like that?
That was full of wit and character, whereas this has none at all.
No, but this, like, it's so 90s.
It's so upsettingly 90s that's sad.
It's sort of supposed to look golden luxurious, but it just looks
cheap, you know?
The sets feel really cramped as well.
Yeah, yeah.
That shot coming up made it feel like it was a big room.
It's a tiny room.
Yeah.
You know.
Look, take a good look at this corridor because we're going to be
wandering around them for some time, okay?
Oh, that's a bit now, Webb, but she was going, oh, oh, what is
going on?
I thought he was having an orgasm.
I was like what is going on?
Or being tortured?
don't know.
Oh no, he's yelling in his dream to weigh himself up. against the
wall.
Yeah, against the wall.
But yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, here's fallow. move along.
Move along.
Poor A for folks.
Oh, God.
We will talk about my favourite scene, the Alamoraine scene, which
I do love that scene.
But you can see the point where everybody, literally, you can see
the point, the look on his face where he's like, get my fucking
agent on the phone now.
I want out of this contract.
But I mean, so the thing, see, he's terrible in this scene, poor
old Sid.
He's, oh, look at that.
I mean, just horrible, horrible overacting.
I thought I was having a nightmare, so did we watching this
episode.
Oh, and then no, in fact, look, this is Kira's angry bit as well
isn't it?
All of them are just terrible in this.
They're all terrible And I don't know what they expected.
I mean, Star Trek is kind of like this.
Like, you know, I've seen 60 Star Trek. don't know.
You know, so be beamed into games when things like this happens on
every starship.
Yeah, yeah.
The thing that I saw it compared to was fear is that fear?
Oh, that was glorious, though.
Yeah, yeah, but it's another one where it's a sort of artificial
environment. that, uh, you know, that operates under some kind of
you know, there's game like elements to a.
But you know what they did with, uh, with that episode?
They brought in a cinematographer to do it.
So there was movement and weird stuff going on all the time.
There was so much visual interest that who cares what the plot is
and the plot's pretty good in that episode as well.
And the villains, what Michael McCain, who is just the best person
ever I adore.
I'll say avoid your episodes better than a DS91, but when this is
the DS91, well, here we are.
Yeah, yeah.
Nice luxurious shots of the station there.
Oh my word.
This man primman.
He's only in 2 episodes, okay?
They bring him in. and the passenger.
Yeah, 2 absolute bangers.
No, but this scene's cute.
Like this scene is adorable.
So Premium's not here yet.
This is Jake comes in to speak to Odo and says my father's gone.
Where is he?
And he's so cute.
He says, like, school's not on.
Because Mrs. O'Brien, because O'Brien's not in this episode.
And so he's going somewhere with Nog.
And Renee, I mean, Ono immediately goes, look at girls and they
look, little, little, he smiles, and he can't, he can't stop
himself from smiling.
He's so, so cute.
The only way that thing could be more Sakarin would be if the door
opened and little Molly walks in and went.
Have you seen my daddy?
Well, I think I just think he's cute.
I think he looks younger than 14.
But whatever. that's fine It's just he's a kid actor that just
isn't annoying and that I'm learning and the more I podcast and
watch these things, it's something of a minor miracle.
Oh, here's Primon.
He is an adult actor who's annoying.
This is pre-man. talking about before.
Constable.
Oh, doll.
He says, what the hell?
So they do this again.
They do this again with Eddington, don't they?
with more successfully because, well, I mean, they take a course
correction, but it works brilliantly with Eddington.
Well, because Eddington's very rural bound and stuff.
He's very serious.
He's not like this guy.
I really like this because Odo gets to come in and just own this
guy.
And again, there's all sorts of things being done here that would
never, ever be done later, like that seem really odd.
Um, but I do like that.
I like in series ones where they fail, but they're sort of
figuring it out, you know?
where you can see the genesis of the show and you can see what
they ditch and what they keep.
And I think TNG definitely has it.
Voyager absolutely has a hit one as well.
But I think DS 9 more than those 2 because they really do go off
in a different direction. after Series 2.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But well, and in series 3 and in series four.
Like, it's a show that does reinvert itself every year.
Yeah, exactly.
The only series of any continuity is far away.
Oh my favourite.
But the, like, there's the Odo proven stuff.
It has my favourite line and the whole thing where it made me howl
where he goes, oh, oh, is that against Starfleet rules?
It is actually, yes.
Well, I'm not in Starfleet.
And then he walks off. love that line.
But like, is it against Starfleet rules to press some buttons.
It's kind of like, come on, come on.
He's just a prat, isn't he?
But like, like, you know, look through the prism for a second.
Okay, they're like, oh, primer's not working.
Let's write him up and he's in the entire seven-year run and he
has a great arc when those writers come in and they figure out
what they're doing.
It could have happened.
They've clearly brought him in as a regular, but I thought, oh, I
just semi-regular.
No way.
He's really annoying.
Ah, look, there's lovely corridors again, though.
Yes.
So we're in the corridor.
Are we doing Alamoraine yet because it all goes to hell after
that.
Or is it genuinely a corridor with some depth?
No, there's a force perspective thing.
There is some depth, I think, isn't there?
Oh here we go.
Here's Alan Rain.
We'll count 2 for Alamarine and then free more.
I mean, it takes them forever to figure out how to get through
this part of the game.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's it. kind of dumb as well.
Like, because they have to, well.
And and again, part of the point is that because they're Starfleet
officers, it takes them a while to realise that they have to
follow game like rules in order to get through this.
And in fact, they never seem to realise it and it never seems to
be defeated.
She's playing hopscotch.
Surely you must realise.
Just play hopscotch and you'll get through.
Fuck sake.
I'm not particularly smart and I would be across this room in 2
seconds.
To be fair, like they try and do it almost immediately, don't
they?
Like, and but part of it is they're not listening to the girl's
rhyme and the girl's rhyme tells them how to do this.
And so it is, how well are you suited to this kind of problem.
Like how well do you understand how games work?
Because once Kira gets hit in the face, which?
It's not an examination of games, though, is it?
It could have been.
No.
No, because they don't really have any idea about the game and it
doesn't quite work.
And so then you've got Julian tries to do the hopscotch thing and
uses the panels on the punched in the face as well, which is...
Because he's not doing the rhyme because it's Dax that realises
that you have to do the rhyme as well.
Like, I don't think that's bad.
My angle short's quite nice.
My angle shot's really great.
Imagine Avery talking to the director.
Now, look, I've just come from this hard hitting police drama.
Are you really telling me you want me to play hopscotch across
this room, sing that song, and do saluting while I go?
Yes.
Yes, we do.
Let me just say that the person who goes for it when it comes to
the singing is Avery.
And so we get to hear Avery singing for the 1st time in Team Space
Nine.
I think I can do it.
This is great.
Solo goes, um, a la Marine, we can't do four.
Alla Marine, and then Fremont.
Oh, look at him.
Yeah, he probably sings.
Danny, you know, his beautiful tenor voice and everything.
For sure.
For sure, like such a twat, doesn't it?
There we go.
And Cisco smiles or is Avery going, well, that's an idea of my
career over with.
I don't think that is.
I think that that's maybe the best scene in the game because the
next one where they're at the cocktail party just makes literally
no sense at all.
It doesn't seem to be a game in any way.
Um, you know, like I did like the dissonance of all the laughter
and they're angry and it was just, it was weird.
It was the atmosphere of it was weird.
But like in terms of a game with rules, it's like what?
No, it makes the liquid so you don't choke on the gas at the end.
Okay.
Just makes no sense.
You know, like if you were playing a computer game and that was
that was the way out of something, you'd be like, well, yeah
yeah.
How was I to guess that?
And and then, and so we know at this point that it's the 4 of them
or we do, because we've seen, we've seen Fallow explained to
Fallow appeared to talk to, um, Cisco in the game. and now he's
explaining about the 4 characters.
So we know Quark doesn't know yet.
But why should he?
He doesn't even know that 4 people are missing.
I know, but I hate being, I don't like being one step ahead of
characters usually.
I hate being 20 steps ahead of characters.
But it's not the characters aren't being particularly dim yet
they?
Like...
This is the bit now.
Watch the camera move. as I don't realises, it goes from Odo's
shock face to quark shock face to the pieces on the board.
But that's that's actually not too bad because he goes four.
Did you say 4 officers are missing?
And it's such a stupid, weird thing.
Like I actually think that's actually pretty great.
So it's a close-up on his face, a close-up on those pieces, and
suddenly Quark realises the absolutely absurd idea that they are
in some sense the pieces.
And how, do you know what I mean?
It's so strange.
Like, I like it.
I don't know.
I just I just feel like it's it's almost being filmed like a
twist.
That we haven't figured out.
It's so...
I figured it out.
Why have we figured it out?
Maybe the mistake.
Maybe the mistake was having it fallow in the game so that we know
really. early.
Although we must, there must be linked because we keep cutting
from one to the other.
Yeah, yeah, but that's not a way of reasoning that's available to
the characters in the show, though.
I maybe would have liked that scene we've just had, you know, just
before we cut to them in the game and then, right, fine.
There's our premise. that's what we're doing We never really see
people being smart and figuring out.
So we see the Alamorain scene and we see the other scene where
Julian starts to like he tries to pretend that he's clever enough
to figure it out and then he said, ah, I just thought, I'll have a
drink. because, you know, what have I got to lose?
And so this in no sense seems like a game.
Like it, that just doesn't seem like a game.
And so no one did think at one point.
Kira was gonna massacre a lot of them, though.
She's so angry isn't she?
I mean, it doesn't seem like a nice smart atmosphere either.
In this cramped room filled with smoke.
They're all sitting around drinking.
I mean, it doesn't seem like a party to me.
I thought these poor actors think they were doing.
I don't know.
I don't know. very strange.
Hello, darling.
How was your day?
Well, you know, I stood around with a drink in a Star Trek set
whilst this very angry woman threatened to punch me.
I don't know what was happening.
I got my salary.
Yeah, then he comes in.
Hello comes in laughing his head off.
Well, this should have been...
This should have been the 1st time that he comes in.
Maybe that improves it a bit.
You know what I mean?
Like if, you know, you know, Trek ranks, that other podcast, I
tell you about sometimes, you know?
Is this your least favourite one ever?
No, see, they, they, this came up the other week and they were
going, oh, I love Move Along home.
Why does nobody like it?
They were start talking about it.
And I think sort of there's a certain breed of Star Trek fan.
That's those people that have Star Trek injected into their veins
yeah.
Whenever it does something quirky, that's enough.
You know?
doesn't have to be good.
Whenever they do something always from, you know, 1st first. like
that, though.
Like, I like that idea.
But it still has to be good.
I know, I know.
But I think there are probably plenty of people who automatically
dismiss the things that are sort of all format or, you know, things
that aren't in the pale moonlight are a waste of time.
People hated that fair episode.
That really wasn't popular.
Right.
But, you know, like this, the problem is, in what sense is this a
game?
Like, in what sense is this part of it a game?
And then later on they, like, that's the best they can do.
They can do.
Can you imitate the little girl playing hopscotch successfully?
That's one aspect of the game.
Then we're in the room, and this is not a game.
It's like some weird ass thing.
And then like we're clambering over chasms in stock cave set
number one.
And I just sort of think we've given up where we pretend.
It's so boring.
Forgive me for the non-pump, but that's when this episode
definitely goes over a cliff.
Yeah.
And they keep doing that high angle shot.
It was so impressive the 1st time.
But now it's like, okay, that's clearly the only bit of visual
splendour you have.
It's that camera you have secured to the ceiling.
Yeah, yeah.
And like there's a moment here too, where, where, see, The the
idea of a game means that there's not peril, right?
And because they're Starfleet people, they've got their tricorders
and they've got their phases and stuff like that and they're
expecting peril and and it's a game and if you lose, it's over and
then you play again next time.
And I think Quark should have realised that, or something like
that, or started to suspect that, there is a bit to come where
Quark understands how the game works in a way.
Do you know what I mean?
when he pushes it on like a level by choosing the dangerous path.
Yeah, that's right.
And Odo says no, don't do that.
Still very simple though, isn't it?
It is very simple because the whole idea, they've got no sensible
idea about how games work or anything like that.
But, you know, they know that Quark is better at them than the
Starfleet people and that he can handle the situation better than
they can.
Like, I've got to be honest.
Yeah, I'm on a bit of a loser with this anyway because I fucking
hate board games.
I just hate them.
I'm not competitive, you know, and I just want to wind up people
that are, and that's the only pleasure I get out of ball games.
You know, I'm the monopoly man who takes one from each set and
doesn't trade with anybody and just makes them play for 10 hours
getting more noise.
So I'm sort of on a bit of a loser here straight away.
But it's these characters I love in this situation.
So I should sort of like it, but I just don't recognise any of
them.
Unfortunately, at this point, they're proto-characters at this
point.
I do like this where he goes on board the Wadi ship.
Oders on board the Wadi ship.
He opens a door, throws himself through and finds himself in
Quark's bar with no explanation.
And then that little knowing look from Fallow, which I think is
really good.
But did you notice how cheap the direction was?
So he's like, right, throw yourself into that light and then we
cut the quarks.
Right.
Just walk into camera.
We're not going to put on a special effect or a light or
anything.
Just walk into shop.
Oh, yeah.
And like, you know, there's Odo Quark stuff here, and I think
those are 2 of the better characterised.
Like, they're the characters that are sort of a hand-long at this
point, a bit.
So there is some nice moments between those two, but not enough.
Not enough.
No.
Oh, here's that corridor again.
That's a lovely corridor.
Yes, isn't it?
No, it's miserable.
No, no.
And so we've made an unfortunate role and we're going to lose
Julian, right?
Um...
I mean, there's dialogue.
What is a shap?
Who knows?
But I'm sure we're making progress.
It's just words.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
A couple of seasons later, this will be packed full of character
this dialogue.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, now, I do quite like these glowing balls that emerge in a
minute and take Bashir away.
I don't know why, it's just a bit...
It's a bit different looking from what you see in Star Trek
normally.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think they look pretty cool.
I think they do look pretty cool.
But then you get this moment in a minute where the camera pans
laboriously across all the characters right, and Bashir does the
most.
The campus backing against a wall I have ever seen.
Keep your eye.
Here we go.
Wait for it. the balls pick the person who is stood against the
most neutral background. to make them disappear.
And it's that thing that you said to me.
Do you know what I mean?
Like so when they leave a space somewhere.
Do you know what I mean?
Like he stood up against the wall just in case we decided to do a
special effect.
He's got really early 90s hair there too. can I just say it's
pretty bad.
I don't want you to think I don't want camp people in Star Trek
all right?
I love a bit of camp. you know that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it's not the route they go down with it this year.
No, no.
You know, maybe they should have done many.
The Quintin Crisp of D-Space 9.
But I don't think he's playing it gay or anything like that.
I think he's just overplaying it.
He, yeah, genre fiction overacting, you know.
He's just sort of really accentuating his accent as well, isn't
he?
He drops all of that.
He's so much more relaxed.
Like he's so much more relaxed.
Yeah, see, I like this too.
Like, I think this is actually not a bad character thing, you know
that, that, um, that Odo suspects that he's going to try and make
money out of it, but he's actually concerned about them.
Like, that look of horror when he realised that's who he's
gambling with is those 4 officers.
And it is partly, I think, because he thinks he's going to get
into trouble, but he is sort of genuinely concerned.
And then we get, I mean, this is just dreadful what's coming out.
Yeah, the scene where he has to choose one of the players too.
What he thinks is die.
Yeah.
That is a good idea.
It's a good dramatic idea that, okay, choose one of them, or
they'll all die, but I just can't believe the direction of them
where he's on the floor.
Go, please.
Please.
And I'm like, just cut, cut, cut. screaming at the telly, like
just please pull away from this.
I actually love how Quiet gets Odo to blow on the dice before he
throws them.
Do you know what I mean?
Because he is a proper gamer.
He knows how it starts.
So here's the problem.
Here's the problem.
So sacrifice one or the others die, and then what happens?
Like, I'm there watching him. appear in the room.
They're all there in the room and no one dies and it's like 5
minutes or something and they're still all there.
And he comes going, have I misunderstood something or have I
forgotten?
Like, what's a, what, what, and then that never happens?
Like one of them never disappears.
They all lose.
Like, so what, what, what even is this?
you know, And it takes some effort to make Ahmed Shimmerman not
funny, right?
He is a gifted comic, I'm a Shimmerman, but this scene.
I'll never cheat again.
It goes like, it's awful.
It's it's badly written and I can't believe I'm going to say it
because he is one of the most, he's the one of the MVPs of D's
most one.
It's really badly acted as well.
Oh, yeah. so badly judged.
They should have just cut it all.
Cut it all and just go straight to him saying, fine, if you're not
going to choose our shoes for you.
And you can't imagine that happening again.
And you can imagine Quark showing concern for the other crew
members, because he does, not the other crew members, but for
those crew members.
It happens next week, that wonderful scene in the air lot where
Rom's going to kill him when he's going, please.
So you were going to throw me out of an airlock.
He goes wrong.
It can work.
They're figuring it out, aren't they?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But VC's terrible.
Like heaps of things fail.
And so we're going to program the game to kill one of them to
destroy one of them at random, but then we never see that happen.
So we're assuming that now one of them is going to go.
But like Julian disappeared immediately.
Why are we, you know, why are we waiting for this?
And now suddenly we're, we've run out of set and we, we're going
into, into the, the cave sad at the end of the car.
The only thing I'll say in the defence of this is DS9 hasn't been
in a cave yet, which is a miracle, given that we're 9 episodes
in.
So there will be more caves to come though.
There will be plenty.
I mean, we was in a cave in rocks and shoals.
We were in a cave in tacking into the wind and go on, say it.
They're all the same caves.
Cave set one.
Look at this.
The Bashir spectre in the light.
Come, come this way, commander.
All right, then, if you insist on...
We've never seen an episode of a genre show before.
This fella, fallow.
The actor's really putting some in, isn't he?
Yeah, yeah, he's...
He was sort of doing hand movement, Sarah. move along home.
So he says the word that he says to Quark, Thialo, which means
sacrificing one for the sake of the other ones, and then, no, it's
just a made-up word.
And then that never happens.
Like nothing seems to happen.
No, we walk around these caves for five fucking minutes. like
we've run out of game.
This is not just, you know, a design problem, but it's an ideas
problem.
Like they've just got no idea of what to do with the game or how
it makes the game interesting.
We've watched a ton of TNG before this.
So we've been in this cave. many, many times before, you know.
Remember all those sequences in Times Arrow with the lights
shooting about?
I mean, they were a bit more interesting.
Silicon Avatar.
Just all over the place.
I just I think this is paceless.
I think this is poorly directed.
Like, I can't get... has brought her breasts with her in this city
a sense of the scale of the of the danger.
I just I don't even know what's happening, but there are lots of
shots from underneath looking up at Terry's breasts.
I want to tell you people, right?
listening to this.
In a 1965 Doctor Who story.
Yes, we're going back to the 60s now in black and white.
They're a sequence with some characters in a story called The
Rescue going across a very thin ledge.
And then there was this hugely impressive wide shot of the extent
of the drop.
You know, that was in 65.
We're now in 1993 with considerably more money and this just looks
shocking.
No, it's impossible to work out what's going on.
I mean, when they did go over the cliff, I did breathe a sigh of
relief.
Thank God they're all dead.
But in one sense is this the game?
Like, what has this got to do?
Is this still the Thialo thing?
Like, is this the, like, I just don't even know what's happening?
Like, this is where Dax is going to end, you know, you've got to
go, come out.
You had to go, commander.
Leave me, you know.
I finally holding you back.
I mean, there was a brief moment of character there where they're
talking about, come on, decisions. and he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah
I've read that book as well.
Yeah, yeah.
And the reference occurs on and stuff.
Like all of that's pretty good.
So Kira goes over the cliff in a minute and they're trying to sort
of drag her back.
They managed to get her back on the ledge and we've got another 5
minutes of going along the fucking ledge.
Is there meant to be some tension here?
Like this, Terry's press, again.
There's meant to be some tension here, like which of them is going
to be lost.
But we really know that none of them are. sorry, but Cisco's tight
trousers are very distracting with that angle.
Did you just see that then?
You could see everything.
I was distracted by Terry's breast.
No wonder.
No wonder Penny once.
You were just...
Who are you?
They are very loud.
Hey, Ruth's penis wasn't shot then.
Will you pay attention?
Yeah, no, I'll run.
Penny, Johnson, Gerald looks so happy every time she sees it.
Sorry, folks.
We have to get something to him out of this interminable
sequence.
I mean, Kira's asking quite nice.
Look at her arse in there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, it's a flattering outfit.
So we've got...
This is so low effort, isn't it?
We've got arse, cock, and breast.
They're really trying to give us some visual interest here.
But I mean, this is terrible.
Like if this was real, we would be angry at how boring it is, but
it's not real.
Like it's not actually happening to them, there's a game of some
sort going on, but it's impossible to tell what.
God bless the actors.
They are trying to give it some.
But it's just the tension is just so baseless, isn't it?
It's like...
Oh, I don't know.
Look at this show here.
I can't even see what is happening.
Just the silhouettes of the people and none of them say it.
No, it's terrible.
It is terrible.
So this is David Carson.
Didn't he direct Star Trek generations?
And emissary and emissary.
Brilliantly, Maio.
And apparently, despite what we've been saying, this was a very
expensive episode, but, you know, they had to bring in the stock
cave set, or is it just always there?
Someone's fallen down, now she's fallen down.
Oh, my God.
She doesn't fall down.
Well, just hearing Kira scream like that.
She screams as she falls.
I'm like, no.
Kira is a tough bitch.
She's like, just let me drop.
Oh, finally.
Oh, wait.
Slow motion.
Oh, did you watch about the rock bounces?
The bouncing rock?
I had full confidence in you commander that you'd be fine.
But and again, the fact that he doesn't understand that he's lost
um, because it's only a game and people don't normally get killed
if they lose a game, right?
Um, yeah.
And so like the, we were never in any real danger.
Like, I think a lot of people regard that as a cheat.
It's kind of like, well, what have I been watching?
This doesn't matter now.
All of these stuff.
This is why we've been objecting, isn't it?
Because it is only a game.
Why were you pretending it's real?
It's a TV show.
We knew that they weren't going to be harmed because it's episode
10 and, you know, they're contracted for... series.
Episode 26.
Then someone's going to get out.
So we do, we do know, and it's the end of the season.
So we knew that they weren't going to be harmed, but what the
problem isn't that, um, this, that it wasn't real. apparel wasn't
real.
The problem was that it wasn't in any way interesting.
And that, like, it stopped being interesting after the Alamoraine
scene.
Nothing that happens in the game is of any interest at all gives
anyone a chance to show or think or work out what the rules are or
you know, they never work out where they are, like they start to
have inklings, you know, it's ridiculous.
What I said earlier.
I think they think that just the fact that this is a bit weird and
different.
That's enough.
I haven't got to put any more effort in than they would in any
standard Star Trek episode.
And it's not enough. you know.
In a couple of years, we do Arman Bashir as our sideways
episodes.
You know, little green men, for God's sakes.
But I mean, this needn't have been a sideways game.
It could have been something about 1st contact and it could have
been something about Quark.
And, you know, it's not a 1000000 miles away from a functional
episode, I think.
I was confused as well because I know I think a lot of people were
in these 1st couple of years where Quark does keep getting away
with doing things and there are no ramifications.
So obviously he only cheated here on these people, but it did
cause all of these problems.
And there's no consequences.
Like, in series two, there's an episode where he sells out the
station to, um, John Glover, you know, who comes to rip out the
trill from Dax and brings along Tim Russ as a Klingon and Quark's
responsible for giving them access to the station. when it's going
through this sort of meteor and there's no consequences for that.
And they realise, I think, come the end of two.
Yeah, we can't have him pushing against the status quo as much as
he is.
We need to integrate him and that's when they really sort of focus
on the family and all it.
And give him just nice things to do where we like the character.
It is odd.
I know consequences are really a thing on Star Trek.
But like, this was all his fault.
And at the end, he's just, we're just going, oh, Quark, as he's
running after them, going, fellow, you know, we could have a table
on the 2nd level.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, here he was just running crooked games and you would think
that as the sort of administrator of the station.
Cisco would have something to say about that.
And I'm sure that he must, you know, under other circumstances, but
it, here it wasn't like part of the thing was that it seemed to
have ballooned into these sort of terrible deadly consequences
which ended up not being real or whatever.
I don't know.
I did see Avery Brooks cult, though.
So it wasn't an entire...
Yeah, well...
Please rewind.
What's that big again?
What I will say is the next episode is the Nagus.
And so they're really giving Almond some time in the lie here.
Which is great because in series one of Voyager, you didn't get
many solely Neelix episodes.
So they have cotton dons on the fact that they've got a weapon
here.
They can deploy.
They just have to figure out how to get it right.
Here, they get it wrong, I think.
In the next episode, they're already making the steps to
absolutely get it right.
Yeah, yeah, a kind of episode that will continue to happen all the
way through the run of the show, a thing that they introduce and a
thing that other characters in Ella Star Trek shows get, like a
little suite of characters around them for their episodes.
Less grovelling on the floor for making a move in a board game and
more Armin Schumerman as the godfather with Venetian blinds behind
him stroking a terrible puppet.
All right, it's the end of the episode, and it is time for us to
work out where we're going next.
It's been a little while since we've been here, but I want to go
back to the 1960s.
Oh, next week.
Yes, please.
So it's going to be an episode of Star Trek, the original series.
What you think?
I think that sounds wonderful.
It feels ages, actually.
We've been to the 60s.
It does feel like a while.
Let's stop watching all this bland stuff from the 90s and go and
watch a bit of pop.
Yes, and possible incompetence.
Let's see how we go and possibly something problematic.
Yes.
Excellent.
Well, I'm excited.
All right, here goes.
Your random Star Trek, the original series episode is season one
episode 16, the Galileo 7, which we did in episode 84 of Untitled
Star Trek Project.
It's a shame, you know, because series season one of TOS is
probably the strongest year.
Yeah, although that wasn't a good episode. though.
All right.
Ooh, season three, episode 20.
The way to Eden.
Oh, yes, please.
Yes, of weird camp things.
The way to eat and...
Spice hippies.
Yes.
Oh.
Spock becomes entirely seduced by the hippies that come to TOS. and
they all start crooning and playing their space guitar.
Yes, I remember this.
It's true.
I canonizingly awful.
Absolutely terrible.
So that's too in a row.
But I think we have to do it.
Another fun fact, it aired exactly 2 months and a week before my
birthday, the day of my birth.
So it's...
It is.
It's telling us, you know, something glorious and camp is coming.
Prepare yourselves, everybody.
I wonder if your mother watched The Way to Eden whilst you know
you was percolating in her tummy.
I am 100% certain that she did not.
Oh shame.
You were there at the walls of her tummy going, that sounds good.
I'll check that out in 40 years or so.
Oh, sounds absolutely dismal and delightful.
Let's do it.
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find
subscription links and links to our social media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Sizeran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 24th of December 2024 and
released on the 27th of December.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek, the original series, The
Way to Eden. shit.
Literally, the so that was on a 2 story VHS, right?
Yeah.
And I asked for a Star Trek video for Christmas and I was obsessed
with Next Generation and I can't tell you.
I was so excited.
I was going to burst like a spot.
I really open the paper.
There it was.
And I burst into tears and they thought they were, they thought
they were tears of joy.
Oh, he's so happy.
I didn't want this.
I'm waving it.
And then even worse, I watched it.
I was like, oh, God.
Well, do you remember what else was on it?
No, I don't.
I just remember the hippie one.
I only ever watched it once and then consigned it to the back.
I wanted Wesley Crusher.
The love of my life when I was 12, you know?
Well, this is full on Freddie Freiburger shit, isn't it?
I think all sort of sanity has been deserted at this point.
Which, you know, it's a good follow-on from move along home.
Yeah, yeah, it's too tragically similar messes.
And then I'll keep rolling until we get something. a good one of
some time.
I'll take competent after this pair.