Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, I'm a bit excited about this one, because this is Star Trek
The Next Generation, My First Love, and it's season six, which is
the 1st season that I remember being completely new, I think.
And I remember watching this at the time, like in context after
realm of fear.
So it's season six, episode three, Man of the People. and it's the
1st episode written by Frank Abatamarco, who is getting a producer
credit.
He's someone who's new to the show.
Um, and it's his 1st go at it.
And I'm not sure that it's a super successful script, but it's a
pretty entertaining episode.
What did you think?
Nathan, I know you've been podcasting with Tom Selinski.
You want him, don't you?
He can offer you nothing that I can't offer you.
That whore.
I mean, I think this is possibly the most stupid episode of Star
Trek, the Next Generation, ever scripted on every level.
There comes up the long ladder, right?
No, this is more stupid than that.
That's just a savage dick of the Irish.
No, this is stupid in its premise.
It's stupid in its resolution.
Everybody's very stupid in how they react to everything.
Like it is ridiculously bad and deliriously enjoyable to watch
primarily because our beloved Saint Marina Thurtis gets to have
the best time she ever has in any Star Trek episode.
So we've seen her possessed in PowerPlay and she was pretty great
in PowerPlay.
Um, and I guess there's the loss, perhaps.
Oh she's behaving out of character.
Fabulous bitch in the loss, isn't she?
Yeah.
But this, like this, where she gets to sort of vamp and stuff.
And like the whole kind of premise is super sexist and she behaves
in a way that, you know, kind of straight men find annoying or
something.
I don't quite know what's going on there, but she's
hypersexualized and jealous and possessive and annoying in all
sorts of ways.
And so all of her kind of negative emotions are portrayed in this
sort of massively cliched sexist.
Crazy.
Jealous hacks.
She becomes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And of course, because it's written by a bloke, you know, all she
could possibly do.
There's no nuance to it at all.
All she wants is the man.
That's it.
That's all there is to that.
But, you know, I feel like Marina just looked at the script and
went, well, this is problematic.
Let's go for it.
Please make my hair as outrageous as possible, give me a costume
that shows off my tits.
You know, I'm just gonna play this to the hill.
And, uh, you know what?
I didn't sense one hint of embarrassment from her in any scene.
And given some of these scenes, that is some acting feat.
I'm telling you. is pretty great.
Look, I mean, I think the problem is that Marina is a really great
actress and we've seen her, for instance, in Picard, many, many
years later, and just how great she is, and how great the 2 of
them are, Jonathan Frakes and her.
But she's saddled with this sort of deadly conception of the
character, and it really is only in 1st contact when she gets
pissed with Zephron Cochrane that she lets her hair down and
starts acting like Marina, which should always have been the
thing.
There are hidden kids. in the 2nd half of TNG's run.
There's that wonderful scene in the game where she sexualises a
chocolate sundae and possibly the most sort of, I've never kind of
been in agreement with a character ever before in my life.
She practically has an orgasm eating that chocolate Sunday.
And I'm like, the Riker says, can I leave you 2 alone?
You know, like, savour every mouthful, she goes, yeah.
She puts it in her mouth and goes, hmm.
Yeah.
So there are touches, but man, you're right.
They just wanted to be a good girl so much.
And that's why this is so good though, because she ain't a good
girl at all in this.
No, no.
And in fact, there are hints of it at the beginning.
I really like her reaction to having to do the crew evaluations
and stuff.
She's clearly tired and bored and doesn't want to do it.
And I really like that, that made her seem human in a way that
she's rarely allowed to.
We get a glimpse, aren't we?
in the counselling scene.
Of the sort of counselling, she normally has to endure. are the
people she's got to deal with and evaluate.
So yeah, I can imagine it is quite tedious.
Yeah, yeah.
So like I just think this is terrifically fun.
It is as dumb as hell and but we've decided I'm wearing dumb TNG
can be glorious.
It's pretty great I loved Genesis.
Remember, I'm on record for loving Genesis.
I can't hate this, I think.
Remember my list of Trek that I love?
You know, I did a couple of weeks ago and I put sort of schlocky
dreadful B movie trek is in there.
Man, of the people would probably rank as a top three, you know
within that subgenre.
Yeah, I reckon it probably does.
It really, really does.
All right.
Well, what do you think?
Should we go in?
There's not a lot of in-depth analysis to do.
Please, folks, prepare yourself for some serious quotes in this
episode, all right, because this dialogue has got to be heard.
It's so good.
All right.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
There we go.
Do you know, I did notice, you know, watching this today.
Just how glorious TNG looks in HD.
You know, the cleaned up version.
They look pretty great.
My God.
You absolutely know when you're going back to Voyager and DS 9
everything sort of looks like it's been smeared with Vaseline a
bit on the lens, doesn't it?
Yeah, it's very muddy.
Although it's not doing Brent's makeup all that much.
Do you think Brent's makeup is the problem in this?
Oh my god.
We've got the great thing about how people's faces grow 3 times
the size when they get older.
We'll get it.
Yeah.
So this is the usual boring Star Trek and the generation plan with
2 factions.
And we've had the Kes Print, I think, in Voyager.
This is Ray Cog Sironia.
And this ship here, where we 1st see Alcar, is called the Dorian
because of course it is because of the picture Dorian.
Oh, see what you're doing there, Mr. Scriptwriter. you know?
This is a very niche reference, but do you not think that
spaceship looks a bit like the tissue compression eliminator from
Doctor Who?
It does a little bit.
That is a kind of tarted up version of the original model.
That's obviously a new optical.
How bad was the original then?
It was pretty bad.
You know, they're trying to still make it look quite as boring as
it does.
They do tart the planet up as well.
So, I mean, Deanna is looking really good at this point in the
show's run, I think.
She's not...
She looks so tired.
She's been down on those beaches, hasn't she?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, she's Greek, isn't she?
So I think she's got a natural hue to her skin.
Exactly.
But, you know, they made her up in one and two, didn't they, to
look like an albino?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
She had very pale skin and now she looks, now she's looking really
healthy and really great and really beautiful.
This woman is great.
She is.
So this is Alcohol's girlfriend stroke mother.
We're not quite sure at this point Yes. initially girlfriend and
then mother.
The thing is that what she says here is all true, uh, in the sense
that if you have a relationship with him, you'll regret it.
And it's hard to know what's kind of going on here.
Is this going to be a thing about dementia?
You know, is this going to be a sort of proper issue thing about
dementia, but it also just turns out that one of the 2 kinds of
bad women are witches and so she's one of them. what she looks
like.
She belongs in Hansel and Gretel's cottage.
Yeah, but we've been doing this for 6 years now, right?
Six seasons.
We know when someone comes on board the ship and starts, you know
going, don't look at him, you know, you'll regret it.
Please listen to these people, all right?
It always means something, you know?
When she starts ageing and acting out of character.
Everyone should just be like, okay, it's happening again.
Please get her to Sick Bay.
Let's find out what's going on.
No one remembers a fucking thing on this show, do they?
No, no, no.
There's no way that Mariner would have put up with this shit.
She would have immediately known.
She would have listened or it's the holiday or...
The last 15 times in detail.
The last time someone aged.
Do you remember it was this?
I would like to say, though, I think, I don't know what the
actor's name is.
I think the guy playing our car gives a really good performance.
Like, I think he gets the tone in the episode and trust me, these
guest actors don't always do that.
So we have seen him before on untitled Star Trek Project because
he's Mabis, the leader of the trade in alliances.
Oh, a much more boring role than this.
A much more boring character, and he will be back in an episode
called Fortunate Sun, an episode of Enterprise, playing a sort of
pirate guy called Keane.
They saved the most boring role for him for Larson.
But I thought he was creepy, but, you know, he was sort of pouring
on the charm in the early part of the episode.
So you can kind of see how Troy is a little bit interested.
And then later on, he just plays all the moments where Picard
confronts him with a general sort of shoulder shrugging.
Well, yes, of course, that's what I've done, you know, like, look
at these important negotiations I've got to do.
I don't know.
He just got it.
He got he got the note, you know?
I think he did too.
You know, like, if this is about anything and it isn't, but if it
were about something, he's kind of like a kind of leftist guy who
everyone admires and he's got very right on opinions and he goes
and does good in the world and he has a series of girlfriends whom
he just fucks over completely because he's absolutely awful.
And because his left wing opinions are mostly a way of getting
pretty girls into bed.
You know, like he just seems to be that kind of person, like just
a truly, truly dreadful, awful person.
But they never, like, they don't obviously lean into that until
the very end.
He's sort of got this bland veneer as well, hasn't he?
where he seems inoffensive.
Yeah.
And that's because all of his offensive, horrible things are sort
of being, you know, sluiced away and dumped on whatever his
current girlfriend is or whoever his current receptacle is the
word that he uses.
Even his way of sort of, you know, vampirically sucking the life
out of his victims, your stupidness, touching together the 2 rocks
and the funeral ritual.
I just love this.
But it is also, but it's also he's like a creepy, emotionally
manipulative guy, like I've just suffered this great loss, and I
really need you to comfort me, and that's how he kind of sucks the
next, the next victim.
Just written by B. He really is a proper fucking creep.
This was written by I think no one's...
He seems like a plausible character, you know?
Like, he's like, right.
Yeah, yeah.
But like, I don't think they're trying to say anything about
people like that and maybe that's just me trying, you know
grasping at straws, trying to get something out of it.
I'm doing the exercises with Wharf now in this scene.
Finally the opening credits.
Look at this.
Oh, look, it's like 6 minutes in.
Fabulous Enson from the bridge.
What's her name?
It is.
I can't remember, but she's clearly... season 6 episodes, you
know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Usually there's rocks flying over our head or something like that
on the bridge.
You know.
So Alcohol, you know, he's doing the callisthenics class.
Is that what call it?
Yeah, I can't I did mean to look it up, but I can't remember what
it's called.
Oh, look at those, look at that really shitty wall panel they've
got there.
I put a big lie on.
I mean it looks like foam, doesn't it?
It is, yeah, it looks like the sort of vacuum that you have on the
wall of a studio, like a audio studio.
It's a very cheap set, but I don't know.
It sells the look.
And one of the things that the Enterprise does is that it has lots
of spaces on it over 7 years in a way that maybe, you know, Voyager
dozens.
Thought this was an odd cut.
So now they're walking along the corridor.
Obviously, the old woman dies very quickly, doesn't she?
Yeah.
So we can get to the point of the funeral ritual and Troy going
through all of this.
The 2nd the old woman dies and Troy should go, hmm, you know, she
did warn me about him, you know.
Like, should we look into this?
And Dr. Beverly's there going, well, this is all very suspicious
you know?
No one's doing the right thing about it. space reasons.
I was just screaming at the TV.
You competent space people are incompetent.
So I actually think there is, she's kind of a bit easygoing in
this scene with him.
And although it has the usual problem where Star Trek the Next
Generation can't make its characters actually genuinely funny
because they can't write really proper comedy lines.
There is something easy about her.
She is a little bit relaxed and like, I kind of like this, this
sort of fairly frank conversation that she has.
I like the performance by her, so, okay, you know, calmness
tranquillity.
Those are the qualities that you embody.
I'm like, who even talks like this?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Who talks like this?
But she's just chill.
We say at home and again when these actors get to chill, they feel
like real people, no matter what ridiculous dialogue is coming out
of their mouth. relaxed, even the way she's holding herself
relaxed, she's got to be...
No, no.
Oh, we're serious, look, the evil witch.
Tom Selinski, you're not looking well, you know.
I don't think he actually has it off with anyone, though, does he
Alka?
He just...
No, no, he doesn't have it off with his receptacles at all.
He says to her that she can't do it, and that's part of the
thing.
I really like Marina's reaction when this conversation ends.
Like, it's just like, oh, this is weird.
I'm out of here, you know, like, yeah, you'll regret it for the
rest of your life.
There you go.
I mean, that woman got the note as well because she's having great
fun, you know?
Yeah, yeah, she's awesome.
Her death when she's dead.
Like, she's in Cheryl and goes off.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. really good.
And Marina has great hair in every scene.
I imagine this one actually.
The fellow who plays our car.
You know, he must have got the script and thought, oh, no, I'm
bureaucrat.
How boring.
Open page one and thought, oh, great.
You know, I've seen a few next generation episodes.
I'm going to go down to the colony planet.
There's going to be some argument.
And as he started flicking through the paint, he must have been
like, oh, yeah, baby.
Oh, yeah.
You get to be evil. have all these evil old women clawing their
way over me.
Let's go.
It's time for the dreaded crew evaluations, Nathan.
We see, I really like this and I like how she describes what
happened with our car's mother and all of that.
And even her use of the word evil and malevolent and stuff is
pretty great, you know.
What you don't realise is that Nathan and I have so many podcasts
between us now, is that we do our podcast evaluations every now
and again, don't we?
You know?
Of all the podcasts that are around us.
Obviously not ours.
They're all perfect.
You know, we sort of rank them and decide which ones we're going
to watch or not. similar sort of thing.
Exactly.
But this is good, isn't it?
These 2 together?
I think they're really good Do you know, I realised after she was
in that fabulous vampi outfit later.
When she goes back into sort of this body stocking, it does her
arse, no favours at all, does it?
Like, it's really...
It's that those figure honey... is what?
That's a load of words, you know?
I think that I think she looks pretty fucking great.
It is a terrible outfit.
Oh, she was awesome, isn't it?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
She's like, and she's like, she's really holding that position.
Good for her.
It feels like a perfect segue to tell the story very quickly.
I told Nathan.
I used to wake up in the middle of the night, go downstairs and
write Star Trek reviews on my computer, and there was a point
where the fence blew down between my garden and the neighbours, and
the old woman at 4 in the morning next door was out during her
washing or something.
I don't know what she was doing in the garden.
It was pitch black.
I could see something moving about, and I looked out the window
and she went, look, her hands came up like talons.
I was fucking terrified.
I ran up the stairs. sweating for the rest of the night.
So, you know, it's not so important.
She is dead now, isn't she?
Well, they're both dead, yeah.
And the woman in the episode.
I imagine she died in a similar way.
And so now he's doing the creeper.
I'm bereaved and would you come and do this thing and you're the
only one who can do it?
This is close coffin shaped thing.
I imagine the wrong sort of man would use, you know, grief and
stuff like that as a way of manipulating people around them.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, and he does it twice.
It works on, what's her name?
Lever or something.
Oh, wait till we get to lever.
I mean, she's got literally no depth about her at all, is she?
She is literally a plot function in this episode. devoid of
personality, but it is believable that Troy would be like, oh, of
course, you know, yes, I'm sure respect your wishes.
Let's touch stones and yeah, yeah, yeah.
But he does it in this.
It's sort of slightly creepy and invasive.
Like, you can actually see it from the special effect.
He touches her stone.
She don't touch you.
Yeah. unexpectedly, and her reaction is great.
Wonderful action, isn't it?
It's a really, really immediately.
Yeah.
Something has happened.
Although, again, he looks triumphant.
He's smiling like an absolute fucking creep.
At this point, go and speak to Captain Picard and say, I did this
bizarre ritual.
I felt something very wrong.
No, no, but like, you can't just hand wave everyone behaving
stupidly.
There comes a point, you know, when you've done this enough time
so you go, yeah, all right, I know what I've got to do this time.
But because it's an anthology show and they never really learn
from anything. you hear that?
Ensign Janeway.
Ensign James.
This is Anson Janeway.
Exactly. sister, do you think?
Auntie, perhaps?
Yeah, it must be an auntie.
She's very, she's very young.
It's Ensign Janeway is the ensign who she's horrible to in the
counselling session later.
That is why, you know, you know, sort of Troy's in unusual
circumstances in Picard, because Captain Janeway, now an admiral
comes back to the Al Quadrant.
You were so awful to my aunt.
To my niece.
No, it's a niece.
So you say, yeah.
Yeah, you're going to live out of a shack in the woods, all
right.
Oh, please, can we talk about Gates McFadden in this episode?
I actually think, again, in this, She's given all of the medical
techno battle, which is absolutely terrible at.
But when she knows what's happening.
Do you know what I mean?
When it's not a space scene, she kind of gets it.
And so I think she's okay.
It's peculiar affliction.
I was really, because she was so naturalistic in quality of life
yeah, and so chill.
And this sort of glazed look comes over her face.
Like, she just can't be asked to say the lines.
And there is no emotion in her face.
It's so strange.
I thought that was a pretty good moment with Patrick Stewart
though.
Okay, so this scene.
So we have Jay Chataway back doing the music.
It's good, isn't it?
I thought it was good Yeah.
In this scene in particular, I think, where it's trying to sort of
so, this scene, I think I'm trying to sort of work out what this
scene is for, and partly it's so that she can stroke her tits and
sort of weird stuff can happen, but it is, her hair is already
kind of, you know, like losing, it's going all fuzzy and stuff
like that.
But she's trying to regain control of herself.
That's what that whole scene was about before, that she could tell
how in control of himself Alcoa was from the way that he
participated in whatever this thing is called, and now she's like
kind of exposing a...
There is no other poison, a generation where a heterosexual man is
more turned on than this scene, you know.
Well, I think that is part of the Because, you know, in making
Deanna Troy, you know, relaxed and in control of her sexuality and
all of this, it's just the most sexist thing you could possibly
it's the most exploitative thing you could do to her.
Well, I mean, she is in control, but she's also just
inappropriately horny.
Do you know what I mean?
And it's back to the whole rotten pre idea.
Is he if Frank has not been watching it for the last 3 years or
something and now we're back to like the women are just super
horny because... imagine if it was a bloke, right?
They never would have done it.
No they wouldn't have done it like that at all.
They wouldn't have done.
I mean, and you know, it gives for funny scenes, like this is
pretty great where she sort of comes in and wants to have sex with
him and again, look how chill she looks and how fabulous she
looks.
No, the twist in the knife when he says, you know, I am attracted
to you, but we can't do this.
And how her body language changes. you know, what you're rejecting
me?
Look at me.
Yeah, yeah.
She is so great.
She looks fabulous, doesn't she?
It's like every sort of, every kind of acting she's wanted to do
soon as encounter at Far Point.
She jams into this episode.
And good on it.
I know, it's such a shame.
She's so wasted.
Like, it's such a ridiculous character, and she so rarely gets to
be naturalistic, and even before she's possessed, she's just
chilling a little bit, I think, which is nice.
It's like, you know, like the chocolate thing is a thing, but it's
the least imaginative character trait you can think of for a woman
her age.
It's like fucking Kathy, you know, or chocolate.
Like that's so mid.
It's so boring.
But she has fun with it here and clearly has fun with it in the
game.
He looks like a very awkward geek that just never had sex in his
life.
That's how he's sort of playing this scene, isn't it?
I know he can't do anything with her because he knows that she's
ageing and all of this, but he's sort of holding himself stiff and
awkward and yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's really quite uncomfortable.
And I like that.
I like the, it's making me feel a bit awkward.
Is it that he can't have sex?
Because he's, you know, all his horny feelings, which are evil
being put onto Deanna.
Oh I see.
So that's why he does this.
Because he's a massive hornbag.
He stays young and, you know, and in control and a great
negotiator, but he loses his libido.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. because the lady gets it.
Oh, how unfortunate.
I'd rather get old, you know, stay horny.
Oh, here we go.
This guy.
He's got the worst hair.
He is so like...
This is a straight guy's idea of what an attractive young man
looks like.
You know what?
There's an episode of Enterprise where Tapau goes through the
Pomfara and she's menacing men through the corridors, almost
horror style. right?
it's entirely the wrong way to do it.
The message is, you know, hoardy women are dangerous.
Whereas the way Troy plays it in that, um, turbo lift is great.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
She just leans back very relaxed.
Look, and she's come out.
She's brought her breasts with her, like, like, you can see her
nipples through that dress.
Look at it.
It's outrageous.
There's no back to it.
It's wonderful.
And he's smiling.
He's going, oh, okay, we're doing this, which I think is really
great.
And then when he looks over at her, he's just kind of going, oh
okay.
So we're doing this.
And he's annoyed.
He's not jealous.
I don't think he's annoyed or jealous at all.
And then he kind of goes, actually, you're being a bit of a
priest.
Now, when she starts the pot, is great.
When she goes, are you pissed off?
You are pissed off, aren't you?
none of your business. really jealous, yeah, you know.
I mean, Marina, you play a wonderful bitch, you know?
Like, honestly, you're so convincing.
I mean look at that.
She looks like she's dressed for dynasty, but even more
glamorous.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, well, so what is unconvincing here is, of course, that he is
her friend.
They're really close.
This is too weird for kind of like all people to do.
That's weird.
I like this.
It's kind of like, because he's going, what the fuck was that?
You know, like he shakes his head as he walks off and goes, what's
she up to?
Like, why is she behaving like that?
And we're seeing all these reaction sorts.
We've seen that Beverly's not convinced.
We seeing that Riker's not convinced.
Nobody's convinced.
Nobody's doing anything about it she's got, you know, 15 layers of
latex slapped on her face. poor woman.
Oh no, look at that graphic on the wall. looks very boring.
What are they talking about?
Mining.
That must be the...
No, it's the city of Darth.
It's a map of the city.
Oh, a few sides.
It's fucking gold.
The Twin City Vader.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, listen to this.
Ray Cox and the Ceronians.
Oh, I couldn't be less interested.
Do you know what the funniest?
I don't know.
The funniest part of that whole plot is when woman exposition, plot
what's her name?
The one he tries to, yeah, Riva comes along and goes, oh, Alka.
The Sironian Ambassadors arguing with somebody and it's all
falling apart.
And I'm like, oh my god, even where we're not seeing any details
it sounds so tedious.
What I love is that Star Trek thinks that in diplomatic situations
everyone just argues about the seating arrangements all the time.
So whenever there's a conference, do you remember, like the next
episode that this guy's in, alliances, they're everyone's bitching
about what the seating arrangements are going to be at the
conference.
Oh, here we go.
Here we go.
And Janeway is why we're here.
She's actually having a bad time.
She's a point free variance in her work in the wrong direction.
The man above her is giving her up. is being mean to her.
He's giving us a...
Sorry, stupid names. giving her a hard time.
Troy is trying to look sympathetic, right?
But for once, just for once.
She gets to say what she's actually thinking about these whining
falls.
But look at, like, just in performance, she's so bored.
Like, the great thing is, she's listening to this woman say the
thing.
She's just kind of rolling her eyes and here she goes, maybe he's
just tired of hearing you complain.
I like how she twists it as well.
And she manages to turn it into a threat, you know, if you're not
up to it, you know. not up to it.
We only take the best on this shit. really upset.
And what's great is we never come back to this.
This is never solved.
We don't make this up.
So she just thinks that Deanna has said this to her because she's
being a whiny baby.
Can't we just cut?
So Ensign Janeway on the bridge every time Troy's around, just
giving her a look that goes, you bitch.
I hate you, you know.
But this is so great.
You know, Starfleet only takes the best, you know.
Honestly, if you can't handle a .3 variance.
Suck it up, princess.
Where did she say?
We'll send you to a transport ship.
All right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And look, look, her lower lips quivering again, then she gets up
and leaves across the front.
And then as she leaves, he goes, she goes, glad I could help.
So funny. the best line in the entire episode.
Mama, what's happening here?
There's 5 seconds of this, this shot.
Well, Beverly looks like she's standing like that.
Pumping the console.
It's a very strange shot.
My other half went, what's she doing to that console?
I went, I'm not entirely sure, you know.
But why are we coming to that very long, slower savage shot of
them just standing there.
They've got to kill 5 seconds.
That's why.
So it's Rick Colby, again, who is, you know, very important and
does all of the big episodes.
You know, later on, I could see Patrick Stewart's body double very
clearly in that transporter pad, you know?
Perhaps he needed a bit more time.
Oh my god.
No, she's smiling at Laval here.
So actually that wasn't too bad at that bit.
There is a bit laid out.
I will point it out, you know, where she's pure robot.
Yeah, no, but her and LeVar, I think, actually work really well
together.
They always sort of chill out together.
Coming up is my favourite marina look in the whole episode now.
Oh, in the whole series.
She's got this massive bum haircut with a huge gray curl coming
down.
Oh she is.
I mean, that dress.
The dress is astounding.
I mean, I think I would, you know.
She looks absolutely stunning.
Oh, that dress.
It's like the most fabulous lapis losing, they could possibly fall
and spun into a dress.
It's wonderful.
But it's also just mostly a kind of transparent mesh. you know
with smesh.
It looks great.
I mean, she has got a body to die for.
Why should she show up?
She just looks terrific.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Now, we're coming up.
Can I just say, we're coming up to a signal that I really
dislike.
And that is when they go to the quarters and she comes onto
Riker.
Yeah. and he kisses her and I really hate that.
I really, really hate that, that he knows something is influencing
her.
He knows something is wrong and he still gives in.
Instead of going, right, come with me.
I'm going to take you to Sick Bay.
And frankly, you fucking deserves for it to slash his face like
she does, she does.
Yeah, yeah.
I don't think you would do that now.
You would never do that now just because consent, you know, like
everyone's, you know, like you, it would be like him taking
advantage of her when she's drunk.
You know, and even though they're a relationship is established
even though, you know, under any other circumstances, this would
be perfectly acceptable.
I just don't like the fact that he kisses her.
No, and he goes in again.
Well, he's resisting for a second, but then, yeah, yeah.
I am actually really horny for you.
I realise you're under the influence, but never mind, you know.
Not nice.
No, and I just think it's not been properly thought through.
That's odd too, the way he sort of backs out.
So that's the end of Marina looking truly beautiful in this
episode because now the latex cometh.
Yeah, and here it is.
And I think I said to you, uh, like I imagined Renee Auberchinois
seeing what she wears and going, actually, I think that's probably
just a bit too much, much latex, I think.
Well, she was just going absolutely bananas now.
Sorry, it's funny.
The bit where she, is this the bit where she comes into the cause
and just screams her head off.
Yeah, I think I can't remember.
So this is like she looks, this is dreadful, isn't it?
Like the...
I mean, it's... worse.
It does get worse.
Not quite course oblivion, bad.
But really, will anything ever be that bad?
What is an unnatural selection, the one where poor old...
Turtle face, Pulaski...
The ageing makeup is always atrocious.
What's the other one?
Too short a season is very bad as well.
Also, as well, they just don't trust her to do it with the
performance.
They have to make her unbelievably ugly as well because that's the
worst thing you could do to a woman.
It's so sexist.
Yes, yeah.
Well, you know, we did have ageing makeup fairly recently on Star
Trek Discovery, because we had the final episode, which would jump
forward in time.
I think you saw it.
I thought it looked good Like, I thought, you know, Sanita's a
beautiful woman.
Little bit of gray, little bit of, you know, the odd line and
stuff, but she just looked like a, you know, attractive older
woman.
They've nailed it.
The Doctor Who approach in the last series where they wanted to
age up the companion.
And so they just put her in massive glasses and a huge wig.
I was like her face hasn't changed at all.
She still does 18, but she's a big wine glass.
She looks middle-aged.
I just trust the actor and the audience to go with it.
Yeah, absolutely.
But you can't go with this.
It looks ridiculous.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
This could be my favourite scene of the whole episode and the
schlockiest moment where Troy comes in with her enormous knife and
tries to kill Picard.
Oh my god.
And again, Rick Colby. are you doing?
It's just like the knife materialises out of nowhere.
It's like a bitch.
Keep your arm thick, okay.
Okay, because when he's on the floor, hey, Patrick Stewart.
Oh, God.
Her eyes are, what's happened to her eyes?
Yeah, oh no.
Oh, no.
That's no good It's not even like a tidy knife.
It's like a bread knife is massive.
But we just suddenly cut to it.
Where did come from?
Where was she keeping it?
She's wearing a skin tied outfit.
We don't want to know.
She's a horny bitch.
Now who knows?
Oh, I did like Beverly's line here.
She goes, get out of sick bay, and I want to see you in sick bay
too, because he's just been stabbed.
I like that too.
I do like that.
But she, um, like, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
God, this is embarrassing, terrible.
No, proceed with a mission.
I know you've really done something terrible to her, but you're
needed down there, you know?
There's one person in the whole universe that could possibly do
these negotiations.
Oh, yeah.
Fabulous Nurser Gower.
We just lost her, haven't we?
Yeah, we have.
We have.
She does some really kind of crappy exposition acting here, I'm
afraid.
This isn't her best moment.
She does have some really great moments. the rarest thing, though
isn't it?
It's somebody on the ship that they actually allowed to keep
appearing and they started to give a bit of personality and
backstory too.
I mean, they didn't. should have been more of that all along.
They killed off one of her children, didn't they?
Well, that was all about.
She had a terrible time in one episode.
No, she loses the baby in an alternative timeline, but it's a few
good things.
Rampai, yeah.
Brandon Barakarashu.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
He loves killing people in alternative timelines.
Oh, here we go.
Paul Beverly.
Beverly.
Clip.
What's the hair clip?
What's happening?
One must have a bit of femininity, Nathan.
It's her doing a little gossipy thing too as well.
It's like, well, you know what?
I found out about May law. 30 year old, you know.
It's just like, that's how she's playing it.
It's pretty great.
Jean-Luc, please let me cut her open.
Like, yeah, yeah.
I don't care about the customs.
I love all that.
I thought that was really good.
Go for it.
Yeah, fuck that guy.
Who gives a shit about his customs?
She could do anything in this episode.
She can mend a shoulder once you've been stabbed.
She can de-age people.
She can bring people back from death, like Dr. Beverly is the
best.
McCoy, you're in the bin.
Yeah, she'll go underturn people from not from being frogs and
spiders and shit back to being themselves.
So this is this is chance play compared to that.
Can I say that I like this set?
What, because Freddy Room?
Where are we?
No, no, no, the, the, uh, On the thing.
Now, you're gonna need to give me more than that, I'm afraid.
Oh, okay.
Down on the planet.
Oh, that's it.
Yeah, well, because it isn't a stock colony, is it?
They've done a bit of dressing, though.
No, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
We haven't seen sort of peak McFadden robot yet, but this seems
pretty bad.
But she's not, she is showing concern for Troy, but not in a way
that is she's still just having to deliver all this exposition
isn't she?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, it's all plot, a no character.
Yeah, well, that's Star Trek, though.
That's what that's what happens with Star Trek. light there behind
them.
That sort of fabulous chandelier strikes me as a sort of thing
your husband would bring home one day, you know?
I'll see it behind you the room.
We actually do have one of them in one of the rooms. chandelier.
Absolutely, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. a chandelier.
Pay for my board when I visit it, I'll clean it, all right?
Yeah, right.
You're right.
I mean, it's very period.
It is, you know, like a very, very period sad, but it's big, you
know, high ceiling and stuff.
How in these futuristic success, they just sort of do all these
geometrics, are you got a circle there, square?
You know, like, it's all...
It's pleasing on the eye.
Yeah, yeah.
It's pretty good. statuette there behind him.
Huge gold.
Yeah. statue, you know?
Clearly they are civilised people.
Yes, exactly.
They do kill one another at enormous rates though, apparently.
This is the bear.
This is the bit where, you know, the villain is sort of revealed
and confronted and you'd expect them to go, haha, haha.
Yes, I was evil all along, you know.
No, he's like, no, I discovered a bit of a while ago now that I
could do this thing to women and I could go and be a fabulous
negotiator, you know?
isn't it great?
He doesn't care at all, does he?
No.
So yeah, Brennan Braga is quoted on the memory alpha page.
And what he says is that this bit, and I think he's right to kind
of go, this bit is boring and it doesn't work because there's no
moral dilemma here.
It's almost like, what should we do?
What about the people of Raykog, Ceronia?
Is it fair to stop this guy from doing his negotiation merely
because he frequently kills women?
Do you know what I mean?
So on the one hand, he kills a lot of women, but on the other hand
he's a very good negotiator.
And maybe we shouldn't let the fact that he kills a lot of women
influence the way we feel about him as a negotiator.
And clearly that's mad.
Like no one in the room, do you know what I mean?
That's not a moral dilemma.
No, no, no, no.
But I'm kind of saying that that's sort of the thing that, you
know, sort of going on.
I think if Jerry Taylor was being quoted, another person we sadly
recently lost.
Yes, yeah.
That maybe the emphasis might be different on the critique.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So so that's boring.
Okay.
So that doesn't work.
There's no real dilemma here, so what the hell is going on?
And so what Braga says is it should have been darker.
We should have had like a longer scene with Ensign Janeway and not
have played it for comedy, but just watched her dissent into sort
of madness and evil.
And then you kind of go, well, also that's not very interesting
because that's just happening for space reasons.
And so, and so what?
You know, like...
See, a much more unpleasant episode to watch, though.
Well, that's Braga though, isn't it?
Do you know what I mean?
Like Braga doesn't want it to be campy and ridiculous.
He wants it to be...
Tom Paris puking up his tongue.
It's very calm.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, wharf.
Jesus Christ.
Oh, no, look at the very lazy latex slapped on the Sironian's head
slut.
Yeah. sort of mild Klingon, but not.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh my god, they desperately need you in there.
They're complaining about the seating around.
Oh, yeah. typical TNG bureaucracy. absolutely.
It's so bad.
It is so bad.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Oh, that was quite nice.
They came on the pad, but they did put on a tiny special effect of
them just sort of the end of the beam in.
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's what we...
I wonder if that was...
One of those touches that they added.
Oh, another new transport achieve.
Of course, because O'Brien's now on DS9, isn't he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Oh, that shot of now, that angle.
Do not.
I mean, I'm not going to say it.
That's not a good angle, that long shot.
It's so bad, isn't it?
Just that look is really really bad.
Um, yeah, yeah, just shocking.
I mean, can I ask you, right?
Because, you know, uh, you know, you're in your early 40s.
Something like that.
Has your head grown substantially since you were sort of 18?
Yeah, I think probably.
To be fair.
It's like it's just like the big latex sack on her face and
because she's not moving, do you know what I mean?
It just looks so bad, it looks astoundingly poor.
It's the worst, ugliest looking alien we've ever seen in the next
generation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
She just, like, we've seen old people.
Do you know what I mean?
We live in a world where there are old people.
This is true. is an older woman and she doesn't look anything like
that. she?
No, no.
And we've now seen Marina.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, what, 30 years later and she doesn't look like that?
I know it's boring, but maybe they should have covered it with a
lie, you know, they should become a nest drawing old husk. because
of the, I don't know, this is the effects of it, but it's just
very bad makeup indeed.
You know?
Have they talked about killing her yet?
That's a bit where all sanity had left the episode.
Now, look, I can use this deadly drug and it's going to, and
she'll be completely dead, but only for 30 minutes, then I'm going
to have to bring her back to life again.
Well, I actually I actually think, you know, the history of
medicine is a little bit like that.
People who are, you know, who we could never have recovered or
would never have got better or whatever.
Like, it's, you know, years in the future.
Like, I think that's okay.
Do you know what I mean?
Like they don't damage her body.
They just close down her vital signs and stuff and prepare and, you
know, repair in stasis and things.
So she's kind of fine.
But I can think of many occasions across style, right?
where murdering. or appearing to murder somebody, you know, could
have been quite useful and then bringing them back from the point
of death.
I mean, I think Jesse attacks was only dead for about 22 minutes
you know, when they discovered her.
Oh, yeah, yeah, but she'd been kind of horribly burned and stuff
remember, by like she'd been traumatised.
She wasn't just put to sleep using a very gentle drug by Beverly.
Do you know what I mean?
Like there was damage and stuff.
And you know, another example of the terrific sexism in this
episode is the actor that's playing alcohol.
I used to lie because he's got a script which has given him lots
to do.
The poor actress playing, what's her name again?
Lever, I think.
Lever.
Something.
L-I-V-A. She's just simpering and she just is there to get us from
A to B and to be, you know, the victim, the last victim at the end
of the episode.
There's just nothing to her at all.
There's no personality, no chance to act at all.
She is just a function. very thankless part.
Yeah.
But, I mean, you know, that's a thing that tends to happen on Star
Trek the Next Generation.
You know, it's not a character piece, really.
It's the sort of thing. very rarely.
Kursman trick does brilliantly.
They can do like one or 2 scene characters that you just never
forget.
Yeah, yeah.
We're just better at writing people now, though, aren't we?
Well, I think that that's it.
I think absolutely that's it.
And, you know, it's thanks to the shows that came between Star
Trek the Next Generation and Kurtzman Trek that headed off in that
direction, I think.
I do like now, though, you know, sort of he's exposed.
He can play the funeral right scene because the 1st time we saw
it.
It just, you know, he played it as if this is a genuine general
right?
And we realised that now he's sort of his body language is like, oh
I loved her so much, you know?
Please, can we do the funeral rites, you know?
I must say goodbye to her in the way only I can, you know, all of
this.
I just think the actor is great.
He is really good.
And I think you might be right.
This is his best role on Star Trek for sure.
Oh, and this best episode.
I mean, we did like alliances. especially when that spaceship came
down.
I tried to murder everybody in the conference.
Terrible special effect, but it was a great moment.
Okay.
Actually, you are right.
O'Gower is another part of the sexism in this episode as well
exhibiting no personality whatsoever, a part to say medical
babble.
Yeah, but I mean, in a sense, that's a role and making her more of
a character is a thing that they do and they really only do it at
the end.
I think it's because they like the actual scene in the game.
Yeah, I think that that's how those sorts of things work. seen in
the game.
She's great.
That's her best scene ever.
I'm on level 71, Wesley.
So we're using cordrazine to bring Deanna backs alive, which is, of
course, it's the made up drug that McCoy overdoses on in the city
on the edge of forever.
And I think I've done a little sort of thing into cordrazine
because it does keep appearing in Star Trek.
The latex.
Is it does it feature a lot?
Is it a popular time to time?
Popular drug in next year generation. to bringing people back to
life, I guess.
Okay.
I could see how it would be very useful to having your medical
satchel, you know?
Exactly.
No, I'm doing the infantry.
Have we got any cordra scene?
Oh, no, we'll need that.
Our order of that is, cordisine would be good.
People die on this show on a regular occurrence.
Now watch him as the ceremony goes wrong.
He does a total comedy for air it is.
He almost goes boss eyed, but not quite.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's great.
And at this point, of course, you want him to be dead, which is
not really normally a Star Trek thing.
You know, Star Trek doesn't necessarily have villains in an
episode.
It's not where it normally goes.
It's awesome that it does. is before he dies, right?
He lifts up his finger to say something either very profound or
very insulting, but because he's so old.
It just dies before he gets to sleep.
It's just tremendous, so good.
So good.
Oh my god, his face.
And no one's hair is like that when they're old.
Look at his hair.
No, no, again, the makeup people.
Michael Westmore has never seen anyone over 40.
I've never seen a zombie in a horror movie that looks as horrific
as that.
Oh, look how beautiful Marina Certis looks now.
Oh, she has her best hair ever, I think, in this area.
Well, it's all sort of flowing over the bed, isn't it?
cascading like a waterfall.
Yeah, yeah.
Now this is this is more like it.
She goes, Will, he takes a hand.
It's very tender, you know?
It's not rapey.
It's not exploitative.
It's just nice.
In fact, I mean, this scene is a very sort of boring return to the
status quo scene, and here, let me explain how I feel and what's
been going on in this episode.
But what I think is unusual about it is that we almost never see
Riker and Troy as demonstrative as this.
You know, they're not together.
They are just friends, but that kiss, and where, you know, she
lies back on his chest, and they kind of say, I'll always be here
even when you're old and gray.
And it turns out that's what happens, which is just wonderful, you
know, like, and they can't have had any idea of any of that.
But I do think that that is actually quite a nice moment.
I'm terribly pleased, you know, the writers that can actually
write television came along. and paid off all these relationships
that they forgot to do in the last season of Star Trek the Next
Generation.
Because they thought, you know what?
No, not Riker.
Wharf.
Wharf's about bad for Troy, you know?
Well, yeah, I mean, it lets them do different things, but they
don't.
So like whatever.
It is very strange.
It does make parallels a little bit more interesting, I guess
because it goes somewhere in some way.
So, I don't know.
I'm going to have to put my cards on the table and just say that
was deliriously enjoyable.
But in no way competent, Osage from Marina Services, stratospheric
performance in that.
And I just wish we could have seen a bit more of that in 7
seasons.
Well, I think that, you know, this is a dumb episode, except the
idea that giving Marina more fun things to do is something that we
should absolutely do, and that's brilliant, and of course, that
should always have happened.
I think something as well that's really emerged from us watching
and especially in TNG.
It's not exclusive to TNG, but we've talked about it most in TNG
especially in these sort of romance episodes, and that is just the
base level of uncomfortable sexism that is apparent in the show.
And I know that's a modern day reading on something that we loved
when we were younger.
But, you know, they people point at the original series and say
that is, and it is incredibly sexist.
Don't get me wrong.
It's hugely problematic.
But it's almost a bit more insidious in DNG or 90s trek as a
whole.
I think they do get better.
But yeah, there's a lot of this that's icky.
Yeah.
It's only got... schlocky that it's just so fun to watch, you
know?
And I think Marina endorses it.
Not the sexism, but she just endorses the idiocy on this episode
by going, I'm not going to be embarrassed by this. going to go for
it.
And thank God that she did.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to
work out where we're going next.
Now, because we've just watched an episode we really enjoyed, I
want to choose something that we're reliably going to hate.
And so I have picked for our delectation next week, the animated
series of Star Trek.
Oh, wonderful.
What do you mean we're not going to insure it?
aren't we?
I mean, it won't be good.
You might enjoy it.
Well, as usual, I'm gonna pull up, you know, a bit of behind the
scenes here, guys.
Jammer's website, so because we don't know anything about the
animated series.
So I can at least just read the little precis that he puts on his
website. would be very helpful.
All right.
Okay, so here goes, and I am pressing the button now.
Your random Star Trek, the animated series episode is the Eye of
the Beholder.
The eye of the beholder.
This is the penultimate episode of series one.
Okay.
The enterprise investigates the disappearance of a science team on
a mysterious world.
That is the most generic... anything.
That's about 12 to 15 different episodes of Star Trek.
To call you, it does have one half star less than them.
Oh, it's 2 stars.
He's not a big fan.
Or a whole style lesson what?
Our lovely Tom Seleski.
Hi, Tom, gave them.
Yes, yes.
Things aren't looking good on that one.
No let's do another one.
Okay.
Okay, so this is a slightly odd one.
This is season one, episode 6, and it's the singular version of an
episode that we've already done.
So we've already done Star Trek, the Next Generation, the
Survivors.
This is the Survivor.
Just one of them.
Okay.
I don't know.
I am assuming it's either Kevin or Rashon, but not both of them.
It's wow, let's see. yeah.
The Enterprise crew rescues are human survivor. sorry, it must be
Rashon, who has been missing for 5 years, but they soon realise he
might not be all he seems.
Is he deliberately trying to make these sound generic?
That's great.
That sounds awesome.
How many stars does he give it?
Uh, he gives that uh, Bem Anahol.
Wolf store.
So this could be a classic.
We could be heading into class. stars.
I think we do it.
I think we absolutely do it.
I'll just say this.
He does say in his last paragraph that M Rez, the Catwoman, voiced
by Major Barrett, makes her 1st appearance as a communication.
Okay.
That sounds awesome.
Brilliant.
The only thing we can properly guarantee is the laziest cartoon
drawings you've ever seen in an animated series.
And we'll come up with some canonical way that Mares or Emires.
I don't even know how to say her name, is related to Dr. Taana on
board the Cerritos.
Brain aunt and rest.
Oh, bear for it.
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley, where online at Untitled Star Trek Project
com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social
media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lahn.
This episode was recorded on the 29th of October 2024 and released
on the 1st of November.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek, the animated series, The
Survivor.
Let's do it.
I'll pique the animated series.
Okay.
So I'll, uh, how are we doing on that on the coverage page?
We are ahead.
It's our 3rd most cut.
You know what?
I, um, when I listened back to supernova.
I was like, man, oh man.
There's a.
There's a Star Wars.
There's a Star Wars podcast, you know, I don't know, I don't know
we'd have any time.
But I really enjoyed listening back to I was talking about that
because it's so totally new, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I didn't know that you really liked the last Jedi, but I've always
really liked it.
That was great.
Yeah.
I'm not watching the last one.
Did I tell you?
I've just decided that's the end.
I know I can do that.
You can do whatever you want.
Andor was very good.
Have you seen Andor?
No, we're still working our way through...
Oh, you're doing it like in order.
Obi-Wan.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, we sort of ruined it now by watching all the movies or
the cinema, but Andor is just great.
Like properly good.
Like, I won't watch any of the other.
I watched the beginning of the Mandalorian, and it was proper
grown up drama, and it's really, really good.
It's terrific.
Huge.
I mean, I'd have a, I do have a huge appreciation for the universe
that they've built and especially the the innovations with the TV
shows that they're doing now.
But I just don't have the nostalgia for it, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
So I can sort of take it or leave it.
Yeah.
Yeah. anyway.
All right, okay.
Let's do it.
All right, it's the end of the episode.