Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we're back doing Deep Space 9 this week, and we're doing an
episode called His Way, which is series 6, episode 20, and it's a
pretty important episode in the history of Star Trek Deep Space 9
and I want you to tell us why.
Is it because they pulled off a romance episode that actually
worked for the 1st time?
That's exactly it.
It is...
It is also Jimmy Darren's 1st appearance in the show and he left
us sort of fairly recently.
And so I think this random choice was sort of fairly well timed.
I'm going to say that I thought this was extremely good, just
superb.
I enjoyed a lot.
I would ask this question straight away.
Why, and I love this too.
I've always loved this episode.
I watched it religiously when the VHS.
With this in the Power Moonlight came out together.
Oh, okay.
Star Trek's Peaks. downhill from here.
And they were just so like tonally different as well.
I was like, this show can do anything, you know?
Juggle empires and romantic comedies.
Superbly.
Why then?
Is this divisive?
I don't know.
I think it's easily better than in the pale moonlight.
It's...
Sorry, I think there's a couple of where we've lost our last
listener.
I don't care.
So I think that people don't like romance, we talked about this
before, that romance is traditionally a female concern and that
Star Trek has always had a mostly male fandom, and obviously that
has been changing as time has gone on, and it was never quite as
true as everyone sort of suspected it was.
And so romance was something that, I mean, was kind of always sort
of part of Star Trek, even to some degree in TOS.
But the romance episode becomes a thing in TNG, I think.
And it's done generally badly.
But we've certainly had fun watching those TNG romance episodes.
So I think that's one reason.
And I think the other reason is that people want there to be war.
It's season six.
We're getting towards the end of series 6.
We know that there's a limited amount of time left, and there are
certain people who think that if we're not doing in the pale
moonlight every week, we're wasting our time.
And I think that's absolutely wrong headed.
You know, my favourite episodes of this runner. things like that
are being better bang, and take me out to the hola suite.
Um, and I think that Star Trek always does something different.
I said I was out of sync with Star Trek the last couple of weeks
you know, Star Trek fans as a whole.
I feel this may be where you're slimy out of scene with Star Trek
fandom, but I love you for that, you know.
I think we did tell a lie, though, at the start of this episode
because you are cordially invited was earlier this season, and
that was also a very funny, very affecting romance episode, you
know, with a big wedding.
Okay, well.
So what DS9 has learned is, and it's taken a long time, I don't
know how many seasons we are into 90s trek now, is when you start
pairing up the regulars with good chemistry, then, you know, good
drama and shoes.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, compare how they kind of flub it with Tom and Belana in
Voyager, where that relationship does continue, but it always
seems to be kind of subordinated.
Well, com romance.
Bad sitcom, but but also it's subordinated to the space problems
you know.
And so we never even see the wedding because we've already seen
the fake space wedding in, of course, oblivion.
And so we never get to see the actual wedding.
You have to remind us of that episode.
Yeah, so awful.
And so we, you know, we just see the just married being on the
back of the Delta Flyer as they sort of fly off at the end of some
other episode.
And so they never really do it properly.
Tom Blott is like the least riskiest romance they possibly could
have done.
Yeah, the 2 young hot engineer and pilot of the ship.
What would have been a risk would be Janeway and Shakotay, which
we touched on in the brilliant episode resolutions that we did.
And they absolutely just tied that in a bow and put it away, didn't
they?
They wouldn't take the risk.
Yeah, I think we said at the end that Star Trek Voyager intervened
at the end and ruined that romance.
You know, it's like, no, we've got to go back and do Star Trek
Voyager now, and it was hard not to feel a little bit sad about
that as an outcome.
Or they would take the risk at the end.
We said the same thing with Troy and more from TNG. and they did
it with Chakotay and 7 in Voyager. and neither of them worked.
One because it's just pairings that why?
They just don't work.
But 2 is like, yeah, you're wrapping up in 5 episodes.
Well done for pair of those 2 characters.
What they realised on DS9 really early was on this stationary
setting was that you could start doing these soap opera
storylines.
And then what comes from that, obviously, are the romances.
So Cisco meets Cassidy in series 3 and we see that through to a
wedding in series 7.
That makes wharf in series 4, suddenly they're flirting throughout
that season and then we get looking for Palmark in all the wrong
places where she finally goes, I've had enough of you not bedding
me.
I'm literally gonna throw you on the floor and get on top of you
right now.
And that leads to a wedding.
And then, yeah, really early in the realm, in the collaborator in
series 2 of DS9, there's a scene where Kira says to Odo, I love
Barile. and Renee Obershamois, for whatever reason, because it
ain't in the script, makes an acting choice where he looks
devastated at that news and the writers went, oh my god.
We've got an unrequited romance story, and that runs through
series 3 where you have Heart of Stone, the wonderful episode
where...
Kira has an enormous crystal growing over her, and Nodo confesses
his undying love rose.
Something we know, but he hasn't actually said out loud.
It's a great moment though when it comes.
He sort of like collapses to the floor with the weight of the
emission.
Then we get crossfire in series 4 where Shikar is having
assassinations attend this against him and at one point Odo thinks
oh, shall I save him?
Oh, no, I like it.
And Kira's Kira's using Odo as like the busy mate that she sort of
pours her heart out to, even though it's killing him.
And you have a wonderful scene between him and Quark in that
episode where Hawk basically says, I know how you feel.
And Odo just says, get out of my quarters.
Right the way through to children of time where a brilliant high
concept episode where, and actually, this is running through
season after season, very gently sort of bubbling under the
surface while they're doing all their other stuff with this
friendship. where an older Odo confesses his love for Kira, he's
been waiting for years to be able to tell her, and then poor
younger Odo when we go back to him at the end of the episode is
left to deal with the consequences of that.
Then call to arms at the end of the season, Odo says, look, we're
going to war next season, so let's just put this on hold.
There you get the brilliant behind the lines where the female
shapeshifter comes onto the station, realises he's got feelings of
Kira and starts to manipulate him and he betrays her.
Then you get that wonderful moment in your accordingly invited
where, thank God, they go off into a cupboard and have a heart to
heart, and by the time they come out, everything's all right
again.
They are good friends.
Yeah, which leads us to his way, which is where we're finally
going to see the culmination of what is it?
5 seasons of this stuff come into a head.
And it was either going to go one way or another, they was going
to get it on or they weren't.
Oh, please they did.
And there's a reason why they do, because I think Ira Stephen Bear
says that he knew at this point that Odo would be going back with
the Founders at the end, and so in order to make that decision
bigger and more kind of tragic and costly, he needs to leave
someone behind.
And so that, which is one of the most heartbreaking things about
that final episode, um, is planned.
That's why we have this.
That's why they decide to go for it.
And I don't think either or Renee was super keen on it, although
they like this episode.
No, apparently she had a huge row with Ira Bear in Ops going, we
are not doing this.
And he's like, you're one of the actors.
You're through what you're told.
But it's the right choice because it does play into the ending and
it gives the 2 of them the chance to drop being space people for a
2nd.
And I think this has one of then our visitor's best scenes in it.
And it is just her being relaxed and unsure of herself
vulnerable.
Yeah, it's most useful way.
I couldn't keep my eyes off it.
Well, I mean, I'd rather look at her than Odo's makeup anyway.
More on that later.
What's great about this is obviously it does lead to one of my all
time favourite scenes in Star Trek ever, which is that snog on the
promenade.
So perfectly scripted, acted, and directed.
I just love and scored as well, brilliantly scored.
And it leads to a really surprisingly mature and understated
relationship between the 2 of them.
That, you know, we did tacking into the wind recently.
And just like the drama they got out of this relationship.
I love I love the bit in Challows and the Super Bowl.
Do you remember where he gives sort of the detective novel and
goes, well, you're going to be hanging around.
So you may as well read this.
It's about a tough space bitch, just like you, you know.
Like, just lovely stuff like that.
They've learnt the lessons from TNG that this is the sort of thing
that they should explore and I think they do it really well.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, what do you think?
Shall we go in?
I definitely think we should do it.
I should warn you there, maybe some singing in this episode
because I love.
I love this rat pack music.
I love it.
The last thing I will say is finally, we've reached a romance
episode of Star Trek that not quite reaches the level of the
romance between you and I. Because I can think of no other reason
that you would be sitting there, you know, busy man in the evening
talking to me, basically in stained long johns, looking absolutely
rough as hell talking about Star Trek.
So our romance is now going to lead into this romance.
Let's go.
Let's do it All right.
I will count it in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
I kind of know the answer to this question, but I'm going to ask
you.
I'm assuming you don't object to singing in Star Trek.
Oh, no, and that was the other thing.
And the thing that we didn't say is this is just a musical.
And so we have this song, uh, and then we have a reprise of this
song at the end.
We are currently singing what, uh, uh, find me someone to love
you.
I don't know what it's called, actually.
What's the song?
And yourself somebody.
Find yourself somebody to love, somebody love. yourself somebody.
I mean, I love a musical.
Oh me too.
I think they're particularly adept at using Vic for is choosing a
song that's relevant to particular scenes and the themes of the
episodes that they use in.
So in what you leave behind.
It's the way you look tonight.
It's so beautiful.
In, um, CG of AR558, so I'll be seeing you as a very slow song.
Yeah, yeah, and a war song, you know, like a World War 2 song
yeah.
And of course, it's only a paper moon in the Nog and Vic episode
about PTSD.
So they use him really brilliantly.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And like, that's the other thing.
Like, I love a musical.
Like, this is a musical episode before the Strange New World's
musical episode, I think.
Because even though the music is kind of digetic, you know, like
it is a thing that's just happening.
You know, the choice of having Vic as a semi-regular character now
you know, they've introduced semi-regular characters before, and
they've rarely sort of dropped them in just like, like it seems
odd, doesn't it, for a new character to suddenly appear at the end
of series 9 series 6, the 2nd last year.
I mean, I think when you watch this, you think this is going to be
a one shot episode and we're never going to see him again.
It's quite surprising when he turns up again in tears of the
profits.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
So it's a while before he doesn't comes back and he doesn't come
back until...
Do you remember what he sings in that one?
Here's to the losers, to Cork and Bashir.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So this is a long running joke as well about Felix.
Felix has many holosuite programs for Bashir.
There's a wonderful joke in.
It's only a paper moon where they mock all of his previous
programs that have gone horrible roles.
The Arman Bishir one, you know, things like that.
Would that get to mention here too?
They really are sort of tying it all together, aren't they?
Just in lots of subtle ways.
Yeah, well, they've got a lot of sort of stuff, you know, like, I
just think this is such a brilliant idea.
And can I just address the people who kind of go, well, this isn't
a, this isn't even a real person.
We talked about this in better being better bang.
You know, if you think that Vic Fontaine isn't a real person, I've
got terrible news for you about all of the other characters on
Deep Space Night.
What's that Nathan?
They're also not real people.
They're equally not real and equally real.
I think making myself aware hologram is really great.
It means that he gets to kind of comment on, you know, he doesn't
he, it's exactly what he says.
You know, he can't be this lounge singer if he doesn't know what's
going on.
If everyone else is aware that they're on a space station in the
future and he doesn't know that.
I think he's got pretty, pretty sweet Freds for a light bulb, you
know.
Yeah, yeah.
That's so funny.
But the fact that he says Tetabab will put in this 50s slash.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But also, you know, like he can appear in Kira's holodeck
program.
He's able to call Odo on the phone. you know, like he has, you
know, enough ability to kind of manipulate the world that he's
in.
I think is really good.
I think the person light in this episode got the note as well.
This is a really warmly lit episode all the way.
I think, sort of, tonally, they...
So the thing is in this episode that Dax, for some reason, is
particularly ditsy, and he or she accidentally lets it slip that
Kira's going to visit Shaka, and she goes...
She's the gossip... the entire station.
When she sees them kissing it again.
All she's thinking is, my God, that's my gossip for the morning.
Yes.
So good.
That's why I like these characters, though. just feel like real
people.
We do gossip Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like that's their workplace, isn't it?
It's fun.
So we're setting up the premise now.
You did say sort of in the pre-title sequence, you know, we need
to set up the premise of the episode.
Odo's listening to Bashir tell O'Brien that he got love advice
from his lightbulb friend in the holosuite.
Oh, maybe I could get the girl then.
It's really good, isn't it, too?
Because it's well set up because he's got good reason to believe
that he's going to get good advice from Vic because Vic knows that
Worf and Dax are married and that O'Brien's missing his wife.
And then he spots something about Kira and Odo, but doesn't say
anything.
You know, he stops himself from saying what it is.
And uh, and so, and that's the great thing about it too.
It's very odd.
Does Odo ever go on the holodeck?
He doesn't because he doesn't really do entertainment, does he?
The last time we saw him go anywhere near it, he was stopping that
Kira, you know, the Kira sex program for being made.
That's right.
So, so he doesn't do that sort of thing.
So having him go to the holodeck to visit Fontaine's bar is very
weird and unusual.
And all of this thing that happens, which is just wonderful.
This sort of Cyrano de Bergerac thing where you have Vic Fontaine
coaching him, and he manages, despite the fact that this is, you
know, 1994 or whatever it is, um, or 1962.
Um, it's 1998.
Without being sort of sexist or horrible.
Do you know what I mean?
Like he manages the show managers not to kind of patronise Kira.
That's a really brilliant point you made there because I think in
the way that he has written, the casting is vital.
I think Vic could have come across as being quite arrogant and a
couple of points a little bit sexist the way he sort of brings in
and uses the women in various ways.
But Jimmy Darren is so smooth.
He is so pleasant.
And so charming.
I don't think there's a more charming character in Star Trek than
Jimmy Darren is a vic I'm saying.
He's pretty amazing.
It's lovely.
Yeah.
And apparently he did know Frank and Nancy Sinatra.
Apparently he was he was sort of, they said, you know, do you want
to do Star Trek?
and he was like, oh, no, not really.
And then he got the script and he went, get my Asian on the
phone.
I'm going to do it.
Oh boy, this scene between, I just love this.
Because why is Odo unburdening himself to Quark?
Like, it's so weird.
And like we we come in.
Who else is this?
No, no, it's even better than that, though.
You know, it's like, what's happening here?
Why are they talking about this?
And you can see how unwilling he is to talk?
And then Otis goes, okay, we need to talk to you about. a missing
shipment of whatever.
Something in roach or something.
Like, it's just like, he constantly talks like a Fringia.
I love that.
Have you ever tried to open negotiations with Maj Shakira?
Yeah, I came here to talk about a missing shipment of growed
clusters.
You started talking about the major.
Who cares?
And something stupid.
But that's really fun.
Like, that's awesome.
And that's the sort of sitcommy stuff that happens all the way
through here, I think.
And this is where you see 2 actors have done a lot of comedy
elsewhere.
Yeah, yeah. can just time this stuff and use their chemistry.
And this, like this, this bit, you're not the most loveable person
in the galaxy or in this sector or on the station or even in this
room.
You are cold, which is remote.
But I go now. yes please do.
Nathan, how much night is straight with terrible comedy have we
sat for?
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Where have they been hiding this?
Well, I think of 90s strike, the only show that does it really
successfully is Deep Space 9, I think.
It's so lovely as well.
I just can't tell you how lovely it is that they're doing
something a bit different with the score and they're using the
piano and all of that.
In scene set on the station as well.
I'm like, why don't you do this more often as well?
Yeah.
Yeah, it's funny.
I love this drink.
One warp court breach coming up.
It's an enormous fish bowl with this fropping drink.
And then he doesn't drink it.
He doesn't even try.
No, I don't know what's happening here.
Oh, no, no, more than sailor.
He will laugh it.
Yeah, Morn will have it.
That's right.
He does Pat Mourn on the thing.
It does look like a war court breach, doesn't it?
It does...
I reckon you could draw a smart face in that.
Yeah, that's right.
Oh, and look, Quark's protecting Odo as well, because he doesn't
want to embarrass him.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
It's their it's their unspoken relationship that provides the most
touching moments right up until...
Do you remember when Court goes to see him?
Aren't you going to say goodbye to me?
No, Nerys, I'll be on the runabout.
And do you like the set?
Do you like Vic set?
Um, yes.
I mean, it's still very brown and stuff.
But, but I like the Vic Fontaine thing on the curtains, and I like
there's a little kind of painting on the, behind the bar, which
they specially made, which I think looks pretty cool, and it's
different, you know, like it, we get them to see them in a, in a
not a space environment, which is kind of nice.
Oh, I think they realise in series 7, you know what?
We didn't do all that sort of fabulous 60s art deco enough.
So it's only a paper moon, you know, we're living in Vic's house
with these gorgeous sofas and sideboards and outrageous mirrors on
the wall and then it's wonderful.
I do like, I just, again, it's just lit in a different way, so the
bit where Kira comes out and starts singing and it's spoiled. so
good.
It is so good.
I was sort of watching, I was watching the direction of this, and
I think this, this genre is very hard to get right.
And there's a few moments where, and it's Alan Croeco. normally
does.
He does a call to arms, what you leave behind you, the biggies.
He's just as adept at doing this, I think.
Yeah, yeah.
And he said that he liked this.
I mean, I think this works incredibly well.
You know, the music, the lighting, the direction.
I think it's good, you know.
And all of those bits in, you know, when people are...
I love this, Jesus Christ, where he's got one of the tiny
umbrellas for a cocktail and he's playing with it.
Oh, I love that line there.
I've used that with a few friends.
Look, she already likes you, all right?
That means you're halfway there.
You just got get there.
Yeah.
But what's great about Renee is he plays these early scenes, like
his usual rigid statuesque odo, and you just watch him thaw and
relax throughout the episode until the moments where he's
obviously humiliated horribly, and then he becomes a statue.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, in fact, I really, really like this, this series of scenes
because Kira's away now on Bajor with horrible Shakaar, a.k.a.
Ronan from...
Oh, it is, isn't it?
Yeah. from some...
In fact, so was Parile Carer, terrible taste, man.
And this, like, there's a very sort of data-ish thing here.
Like, you know, there's always that sort of thing where Odo's set
up to be someone who stands apart from humanity and critiques it
and staff.
He's not really that much like data.
This.
Oh, dear.
Yeah, there's a couple of really terrible effect.
There's one later where Kira's starting to get a hollow sweet and
you know it's about to change to the regular... background because
she's matted in.
But I do like it.
I like how he just creates a tuxedo to wear.
I think... going to have fun.
He goes, you mean like this?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's it.
In fact, this scene is absolutely superb, right?
Because it's, it's there's nothing happening.
We just have the song, right?
Um, and like the song goes for quite a while, like a much longer
than you would think.
It is just like a musical number in the middle of a, in the middle
of a thing.
Um, and all that's happening.
It's a great song.
So this has come fly with me, right?
And it's lie with me.
Let's take off.
Sorry, yeah.
Yeah, this is the one that they reprise at the end.
It's not the your nobody till somebody loves you.
Oh, that's such a funny line.
You don't need me.
The piano's doing all the work.
And he's trying to keep up with it.
So yeah, watch him.
Just the entire thing is down to how Odo changes during the course
of this, right?
And he's he's overthinking it.
He's awkward, he's in on himself, he's sort of concentrating, you
know, he's he's sort of rigid in his movements and then he just
relaxes.
I think relaxes want to invite them back, invite him back to their
room after this.
Like, the magic, he's like...
He starts sort of shaking his head, you know, in that way you do
when you really relax.
And at the end he goes, cool.
And he's still a dork, like he's still a massive dog.
Of course you're not.
And that's adorable.
What he is is adorable.
Like he's chill and adorable.
No point in this episode does Odo become Vic Fontaine.
Mick is smooth.
Od is not smooth. you know?
But you love him. and fuck me.
We've all had an unrequited romance in our lives.
All of us at some point.
So we buy into this from the very start.
But then you add Renee to the mix and you're just, your heart goes
out to him for in every single scene.
I still think, like, why is the band sidling up to the piano?
They really look like they're gonna invite him back.
You know what?
I'm going to drop this now, but, you know, my overall said when he
watched this, I will come back to this later, because I'm going to
end the episode telling you about his experience of watching this
episode.
He goes, oh, he goes, it's a romance with a Burns victim.
I was like, will you be quiet, please?
I'm trying to enjoy this.
I mean, you said to me in the chat that makeup is an issue.
But it's his look, isn't it?
What can you do?
But it is, it is also, you know, like you can see Renee having to
play it bigger because his face is so sort of slathered in latex
and he manages to do it because he's really great.
But you do kind of think if only we'd had a kind of makeup job
that had let us see his facial features a little bit more.
Oh, he's doing great.
If I can believe in the romance between Penny Johnson, Gerald and
that robot in Seth McFarlane's.
What's that show called?
The gay robot in Orville.
Yeah, I mean, she literally snogs the sphere of the robot.
If I can believe that, I can believe this.
No, no, fair enough.
I mean, we make some concessions with science fiction, don't we?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But look, I mean, look.
All we're doing is singing this song and just watching Odo loosen
up.
And look at him now.
Like, he's really going for the piano.
He's singing along.
Um, you know, it's really...
It's like me on the dance floor because I'm really awkward on the
dance floor.
I feel really embarrassed.
But then I sort you sort of loosen up after a bit, don't you?
and get into it.
And then you realise it doesn't actually matter that you look
ridiculous. that's right.
And he still looks ridiculous.
But in an adorable way.
It is, it's like the outrageous O'Connor, isn't it?
It's like data going to the holodeck to get I think this is why
people's heckles were up with their thinking, Oh boy, are we doing
the outracial O'Connor?
Yeah, yeah, and the outrageous O'Connor, to be fair, is bad
terrible.
Although O'Connor has turned up both in prodigy and in lower
decks.
So it's memorable.
I have to say, I spent more time watching extras in this episode
than I ever have before.
And all the people in Vic's bar are the people that are on the
Promenade.
There's a hot guy that just Lola Crystal sings fever too. which is
pretty good.
Oh, Lola Crystal.
I thought I was on the turn watching that.
It's so great.
Oh, is this a bit where those 2 bimbos come in?
They have to take them to the dunes or the sands.
Oh, these comedy clubs?
They're talking?
No, no, but they do talk about comic, you know, like, because it's
Vegas. you know what I mean?
There's people doing comedy things and they mention a few
comedians and stuff as well.
Um, And, you know, like, like Vic has a sort of line in kind of
fun pattern stuff.
She goes, what is it?
We're going to go and see Shecky.
Shecky.
No, no, fight.
Who?
I don't think anyone knows who Sheck is.
Look at that fabulous couch he's got there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All the cushions on that stuff is so good.
We're very 60s, aren't we?
We could be back in at Simon Earth again.
Well, that's the thing.
I mean, this is the early 60s, isn't it, rather than late 60s, but
there is a kind of 60s vibe to some of the stuff even in the 80s.
And I think leaning into the 60s, which is stylish as hell, is
absolutely the right thing to do.
I mean, look how fabulous those women look.
I mean why don't women dress like this now?
I mean, you know.
The 60s was the best time, I think.
Absolutely.
Well, I love how...
Well, you look at that...
Which one?
indoor story.
I just love the designs.
Yes, that says everything about my sexuality, doesn't it?
I'm looking at the lamp.
Oh, can I look at your hands?
They're so artistic.
Yeah, they're great.
He doesn't quite know what to do.
And now she's comparing him to Liber Archie, who had very sweet
dimples and was clearly extremely gay.
Apparently, Shecky, according to Memory Alpha is Shecky Green, who
was a comedian who did a show for 30 years in Vegas because people
just end up, you know, doing it forever there, I think.
I'm wondering, you know, Jimmy Darren wasn't a bit of a creative
consultant on all this stuff, given that, you know, he was
involved with this stuff back in the day.
Maybe, maybe, but, um, you know, it's the sort of thing that, you
know, it's the perfect kind of thing to choose, I think.
Think of all of those dismal fucking holodeck programs that they
went to for entertainment on Voyager over the years.
And how just kind of conceived they were. terrible.
I love that lie where she went, he plays the piano and he's
funny.
How do you get to Carnegie Hall?
The more I'm watching this, right?
The more I know that Star Trek fans are just really irritated the
more this goes on.
I love it more.
It's so good.
It's so great Oh, boring, Deep Space nine.
Do we have to go back?
Oh, this is one of the best scenes.
Odo going to deliver his whatever report.
It's a report about a smuggling ring. been so bewitched by all the
music.
He starts singing in Cisco's office.
Yeah, no, they can't take that away from me.
But the best bit is when Avery joins in.
And like I said to you at the end of Batter being Better Bang, you
know, why doesn't Avery sing every week on this show?
He's got the most beautiful tenor voice.
He's astoundingly great.
He's so good with Jimmy Darren in that duet at the end of the at
the end of the episode.
The best is yet to come.
You know, I don't know.
It's so good.
Look at him.
Nothing that lights up my life. more than Avery Brooks smiling
like that.
Yeah, beautiful.
It's like an endorsement of life, isn't it?
It is, isn't it?
And then they start singing together.
That's so wonderful.
And Odo sings in that sort of growly way that is absolutely
perfect for the character.
Sort of terrible.
It's wonderful.
But it's also a bit period, I think.
But yeah, yeah, it's so good.
Oh, I wonder how long they sang for before he went well.
Oh, go then, shall I?
Oh, here we go.
So this is me at work now.
So Dax is going down the corridor.
She about to get him the lift and she's got the latest hot goss
about Kira.
Yes, yeah.
Unfortunately, Bashir's there.
Well, Reggie and waiting to hear it. hear of them.
Like this is the sort of scene on Voyager that would just tank.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I don't know why it is.
Are they older?
They're just generally better, I think.
And the dialogue is better.
On the whole...
I'm not sure.
Maybe they've relaxed more than the Voyager crew.
Yeah, maybe that's it.
Maybe that's it.
No lie there.
She goes, well, Sodo got to do with it.
Nothing at all.
That's the problem.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. she's such a bimbo in this.
It's really funny how ditsy she is.
I love it. just awesome.
Well, they do it again, Jimmer, and cheers on the prophets.
We're having a baby.
It was a secret.
Yeah, yeah, yeah Now, we are going to see potentially the sexiest
moment ever in Star Trek.
Oh my goodness.
Oh this is so great.
Yeah, this is really probably good.
And this is one of my favourite songs ever, I think, Fever.
And, you know, she is so beautiful.
She's so good in it.
This is one of 2 songs that played on my wedding day.
So I had a singer on my wedding day.
And Fever was one of them, and I've got you under my skin, which
is one of my favourite songs ever. which are both in this.
That was, I've got your normal ice skim was our 1st dance.
So I have, and it's because of, I 1st heard it here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, both of them are in this.
So the definitive version of Fever is, of course, Rita Marino on
the Muppet show.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely incredible.
And you should all go and watch that immediately after this
episode's over.
This may be the 2nd best version.
She didn't get an Emmy for it, I think, actually, her performance
in the Muppet show, so...
Well, I think Nunal visitor should have gotten Emmy.
This is so good.
This, look how sexy that is. and just they've turned the lights
down.
She sort of steps out of the darkness.
Yeah, and how beautifully framed that is.
Look at her looking at him.
So good, looking at the...
Everything she does.
She strokes the instrument.
Yeah, yeah.
She sort of sidles up to people in a very romantic way, stroking
the symbol there, stretches across that piano in the most
luxurious way you've ever seen.
Yeah, yeah.
Wonderful. at that.
I, I couldn't, and that, look at what she's doing in the
microphone.
It's...
It was limp and now it's...
Star Trek. are you doing?
Honest to God.
It's like rotten Barry's back.
She's singing to that handsome man there.
Woo hoo.
Oh, look, the way the camera went up with her then.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And the red, it's so great.
Fingering the piano.
Of course she is.
Back to back with Odo now.
Yeah, this so good.
Oh, she's loving this song too much.
Oh boy, boy.
Odo looks like he has literally got to forgive me.
It looks like it's going to explode.
That's right.
It's all just a bit too much for him still.
You remember that bit?
In crossover where he just blew up.
He's about to go again.
Oh, watch yourself on that piano, love.
Ah she's so good.
Look at that.
What a lovely way to burn.
So good.
It's like, you know, we said there's a couple of times, but like
right, the light of this world, the music's good.
You know, everyone looks sexy and gorgeous.
Like Star Trek, where have you been?
Why are you doing this every week?
Exactly.
Oh, that's awesome.
So good.
And again, just as a musical number, it's so enjoyable, you know
there's character stuff happening, obviously, but I'm just
enjoying hearing that no visitors sing.
And it really does lead into something that I say about DS9 all
the time, and that is, I think the format of Deep Space 9
stretches further than any of the other nine-ish.
Yeah, yeah.
When you think last week was in the Palm Moon night.
Next week is the reckoning, which is like religious war, you
know?
yeah.
Yeah, there's a lot going on, isn't there?
It's, it's, you know, the premise of Star Trek the Next Generation
is very light and deliberately stays light.
Look at that smoking.
I think they have the confidence to just go, let's try it.
Yeah, yeah.
What do you want to do this week?
We want to do a baseball match.
All right. let's give it a go.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's not just a baseball match.
That's a sitcom episode as well.
I mean, Star Trek, the Next Generation, does a Western, but it
really is just the holodeck goes out of control in a particular
way, which is kind of fun.
Have you watched that recently, though?
It's so flatly directed that episode.
Except I love...
I love Marina in it.
Oh so do I. Morango.
I'm casting...
Morango.
She's so good.
Oh, look, Odo, stop picking up the patter now.
He says it's kind of like Witzborga.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And then, yeah, it very awkwardly tries to kiss her and just can't
play.
Because she's not real.
No.
Oh, I like her final line too, again, because she...
Yeah.
And again, I think that it was the right decision, not just for
character reasons to just show that he's still shy and he can't
kind of do it.
Um, but also to not have him kiss a simulacrum of her on the
politic, Leah Brahm style or like Jeffrey Coombes in that episode
that we did.
What was that one?
Are you saying Odo's got a modicum of good taste?
Yeah, morality.
So did you hear this?
How hard it was to get a holographic image of Major Kira?
Because as we had to get rid of her Russian accent... a day to get
rid of her Russian accent.
But it is also a reference to that episode where Jeffrey Coombs is
trying to get a holographic image of an an arm visitor as well.
Oh, Julian.
I never thought I'd see you live again.
Colonel, come on enough, KGP.
But you know what?
Red O, man.
He could just deliver any line.
He had a garbled line then, and he made it work perfectly.
He goes, you programmed her to find me irresistible.
I could read her last week's criminal activities report and she'd
think it was poetry.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. which is a very kind of Star Trek line.
But he does sing it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
That's why they paid for this as well.
Now, actually, this is the bit I was talking to you about
earlier.
Watch how many extras are on the promenade right now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. and more and more people turn up Oh, and
also Kira's come back and she's wearing this beautiful dress
that's still...
They got the sort of huge arms, doesn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's kind of low cart and it's relaxed, like it's really relaxed
and it's her usual colour, though.
It's still her normal colour.
Straight to the hollow suite to do some meditation. what looks
like the cave that's behind you right now.
Yes, exactly.
But again, look at the nice suffuse lighting here as well.
It's very easy on the eye.
Yeah, yeah.
This is a nice scene.
And again, giving Jimmy Darren giving Vic Fontaine the ability to
just wander into her holodeck program.
You know, that the idea that they sell that he's self-aware, and
that he has some control over the thing.
I think it's just great.
He just transfers himself over.
Oh, it's only a paper moon where they make the decision to just
keep him on and let him exist.
Oh, they run the whole time.
It just feels like such a lovely moment.
Because he's helped so many people. point out.
He's helped them find love.
He helps not get over his the loss of his leg.
Yeah, yeah.
He's not the same stick in the mud anymore. swing.
This is actually adorable too, isn't it?
Like that he is just as much, you know, Cyrano de Bergerac for
her.
You know, he just, he hasn't been asked to do this, has he?
And in fact, yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's programmed as a self-aware hologram, isn't he?
So he's making independent choices. right.
And it's risky, but it works.
I think, like, it's hard to be angry at him even though there's
deception and it nearly goes wrong.
You know, and he feels bad, doesn't he?
Like he says computer end program and turns himself off when that
scene goes wrong.
There is deception, but isn't that like at the heart of the best
romantic comedies?
With all of these misunderstandings happening.
Yep.
And, you know, like it's perfect.
It happens at the point.
Like this is basically a sort of happily a happily ever after
thing.
It doesn't end up that way.
But like it's a, it's a romance that turns out good.
There's one setback just towards the end, which they overcome, and
then they're together, and that's exactly how these things work.
Um, and finally...
Yeah.
What I love about it is, is they sell the moment when they dance
during the dinner scene when they look at each other and she
realises there's something there that she's never seen before.
So then after the setback, she's the one that steps in and says, no
let's do this.
Like, this isn't going to be a setback.
Let's go for dinner.
Fuck it, let's snog, you know?
So good.
It's so great.
I do like people that take control, you know.
Yeah.
I mean, Dax did it in Palmarks.
Kieran's doing it here.
The women of DS9 are horny and ready to go.
But, you know, like it's Odo who goes for coaching, you know, who
goes and asks for Vic's Alve.
This scene is so good.
That shit looks good.
She looks stunningly beautiful.
It's because, like, think where we started with Kira yet, in
emissary, think about.
Things of cross and yelling.
Look at that.
It's terrible hair.
Now she looks beautiful.
But the tentative way she plays the scene, the vulnerabilities
that she exposes.
And it's what you said, and I'm more aware of it now because you
keep saying to me, you know, there's no subtext in Star Trek.
It's all done with fucking dialogue all the time.
And there's so much happening unsaid in this scene.
Yeah.
What I love.
It reminds me of last week or the week before last with Beverly.
We said that Beverly, you know, the gates gave a great performance
because she knew what was happening in the scene.
Here, you get Kira just being normal, you know, like not being a
space person, not being a cranky alien, you know, like the, being
a religious person, not being an administrator, not being an
exterrorist.
It's 2 people on a 1st date and they're really nervous and they're
giving each other permission to be nervous because they're kind of
grown-ups and they've been here before.
Oh, I love how Renee is, he doesn't, he's been practising French.
Renee.
Renee Aubourginois is pretty...
I don't think Kira really wants to be here, but she loves Odo and
she wants to give him a chance, just want to hurt his feelings.
She's been asked to come for this day and I think very quickly she
starts to relax into it.
But I think initially she's like, I'm not sure I actually want to
be here.
Oh, yeah, this is really awkward.
Yeah.
But but he's not weird.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, and he lets her be tentative and he's a bit more confident
than normal.
I mean, he's still nervous and tentative as well, but look how
much more relaxed he is.
He's pouring the champagne.
And he's obviously relaxed because he thinks she's a hologram
throughout the entire thing.
So whilst this is just gorgeous to watch.
We're waiting for the penny to drop as well.
So there is suspense in the same tune.
Or we're sort of hoping maybe he'll get away with it, you know, and
not say the clangour.
Yeah, you know, like I was actually just watching it as their 1st
date and like I knew that there was that, but just seeing the 2 of
them.
You know, seeing the 2 of them and look at her, this is her being
really vulnerable.
It's our 1st date.
She's given it a name.
It's out there.
He's saying yes.
I mean, it's all just so well done.
Compare it to Meridian.
Remember we had Meridian.
It was so shit.
I don't remember a thing about it. why these 2 people loved one
another or anything.
Don't you remember?
You scoop out the pulp and then swallow it straight down.
We've moved on to oysters now.
Yeah, we have.
Although I will say the oysters.
He does at one point say, oh, well done, Vic.
So they are reminding you.
This could go horribly wrong at any point.
The bit that makes my heart melt is when he asks her to come up
and dance and she stumbles and he goes, no, it's good.
They're really just warming into it together and he's trying to
make it as comfortable as possible for her.
Oh I love the pair of them.
Yeah, yeah.
It's so good, isn't it?
But I just...
This really was, this was my 1st dance song, miss.
And again.
Under my skin.
It's doing exactly the thing that you say that his songs do
because that's what this is.
You know, it's Odo thinking this, isn't it?
The Odo, this is Odo thinking this about her.
And her thinking about him now.
Now look at that.
Look at how he how she looks at him suddenly, like as if she's
recognising that this...
Was she seen him for the 1st time?
Yeah.
I love the way they come, gently comes around the table now as
they get up and down as well.
Oh, yeah, I love this.
So if you're not going to stop it with a wish, Dan.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's only one thing we can do, Nathan. dance with me.
Just stay close.
So good.
It's so good.
Oh goodness me.
They really could have fudged this, couldn't they?
Oh, yeah, it could have been a disaster, you know, like it could
have been a disaster.
They could have had a B plot about something spicy.
Talk about your sonara, uh, sonara here.
He's literally between them when they stop to look at each other.
He's in the background, Vic.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
As if like my work is dumb.
This is a beautiful rendition of I've got you under my skin as
well.
But they stop at the word stop, and then they start looking at one
another.
It's so good, isn't it?
Now look at her.
She's smiling at him.
She's sort of looking into his eyes now.
They're going to kiss at any minute, Nathan, I'll swear.
I think they just might.
The band's all looking away a bit awkward.
That's right.
Should we be?
They're a bit jealous, I think, because I think they thought that
they were in with Odo after that previous song.
I'll be jealous of Kira.
She was so hot.
She dressed like a normal person all the time.
Oh, no, here we go.
You embarrass the same with me.
No.
Watch watch Renee now when he when the penny drops.
Watch him go rigid. and he sort of folds his arms.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And it was right.
Like, oops.
Red alert.
On you, he says.
Is that what you think?
But even this isn't hysterical.
Like, I can imagine in another track show, this would be a bit
over the top, whereas they do underplay all of this.
It just goes, he holds his hands up and goes, oh, I'm really
embarrassed.
I'm going.
Yeah, yeah.
And he hasn't done anything wrong.
They, like neither of those 2 have done anything wrong.
And like...
Yeah, yes.
Yes, he can't.
But Kira, Nurse, Kira, Major.
Do you hear that?
Like he says, the 3 names in ascending order of formality.
It's so good Nah, could you stand just there?
That's where we're going to do the special effect.
Thank you, very much. stand in front of the band.
That's the whole scene, no.
That's one of the best scenes we've watched in...
You lied to me.
He's not sort of your typical romantic hero, is he, Odo?
No, no, but in a way, kind of is, you know, the grumpy and
reserved and unsure, you know, who learns to loosen up.
Like, I think that's absolutely a thing, isn't it?
The lady digs you big time.
She digs.
Oh, just bit in a minute, right?
I'll let it pass because she sold the moment in the dance so
well.
All of this moment of clarity stuff. is very on the nose.
I think I think that that's maybe the worst scene and I think the
reason is that it's not quite heightened enough because she's
about to go and do something that is strange and weird and risky
and that will change her life forever.
And it's that moment, you know, in a in a romantic comedy where
you kind of go, oh my god, fuck it.
I have to go, but the show, like I think the direction needs to
sell it a little bit more and they need to sell it.
It's a little bit too kind of talky, but it has to be the, am I
doing this?
Am I really doing this moment?
And they don't quite get it.
And I don't think Terry Farrell believes a word she's saying.
I can sort of tell.
Which is going, and total clarity is a very rare thing.
And when it comes to you, it's like, why are you talking to him
like a child?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think the dialogue perhaps isn't quite there.
However, we are now heading into the very best scene of Star Trek
ever.
The culmination of all of this romantic madness.
The way it's paced.
The dialogue here.
Yeah, yeah.
And again, it's absolutely doing the cliches.
Like, it's the scene, you know, the scene where they fight, and
they're still using the fighting tone of voice when they start
talking about kissing one another, and then they kiss one another
absolutely done a 100 times, but here it is in Star Trek.
Oh, Dominion Clang.
There you go.
Well, it's possible.
Well, then who needs dinner?
Just get it on with.
I kiss you right now.
Why don't you?
And then the music.
Yes, exactly.
And I love the friend who drops his tray.
He's so shocked That funky looking man next to taxi.
He clutches his chest like, oh.
What's going on?
He's awesome, isn't he?
The look on Dax's face.
I know, you're right.
She is going straight up to Ops, isn't she?
You'll never guess what I just saw. promenade.
So you've told the story before where like a whole heap of latex
comes away.
The end of the keys.
Apparently it ripped away from his mouth and she had like rubbery
eggy smelling latex all over.
She said we got over the kiss very quickly because it was the most
unromantic kiss you could ever have.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Oh, it's perfect.
Yes.
Yep.
So in a way, you kind of want, you know, like we do have to have a
final seed to make sure that everything's okay with Vic, after Vic
you know, that Vic and Odo are okay after that.
And he hasn't been back and like everyone's been telling about
here, he's back.
And look, he's already saying, who knows how long it'll last.
So good.
Although, it's really good, isn't it?
Punching.
Yeah, yeah.
And then, and then we, we kind of break the 4th wall in a sense
because this is the TV show within the TV show where he says, can
you just leave it running so that I can sing my final number in
this episode of Deep Space 9.
Like he leaves, and he lets Jimmy Darren do the reprise of Come
Fly with me from before, after he leaves, and the only reason it
is, is so that we can end the episode with it.
And I just think that's absolutely great, you know.
He's us at that point.
He goes, I feel like singing.
Yes.
So do I, Nathan.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm fly with me.
I won't do it.
Oh, and then you've got the song right over the shot on the
station. revolving at the end. exactly.
It's so wild.
I love it.
Yeah, you're right.
It works as a romance.
It works as a musical.
It works as a character episode.
Yep.
And it's the rarest of things.
It's a 90s trick that's paying off a character arc.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, it's really good. really great.
I, um, I just say I was going to do this.
I'm going to quickly mention because I, in a moment of sort of
torture, my other romance, aside from you, is obviously with my
other heart.
I'll give him some occasional attention when I'm not talking to
you.
I decided to torture him and make him watch this episode, lying
saying to him that it was the only possible time I could watch it
and he was like, oh, okay. and these 2 reservations were, as long
as it isn't set in the 50s and there's no songs.
I went, you're fine.
You're fine.
And it started.
Don't find yourself somebody.
He went, oh, God.
He went, you knew.
He looked at me, you went, you knew.
I said, you promise you'd watch this now.
I said I've got to watch it.
First 10 minutes he was whinging and complaining and, you know, you
know what a square is.
Yeah, it's one side of a cube going, oh, God, you know.
I actually really love that line. throwing his eyes at every
single joke.
And then I realised he'd just sort of shut up about a 3rd into the
episode. aside from a few horrible comments about Odo's makeup.
And then I realised sort of as the comic mishappenings are going
on, he started to get a bit suspenseful.
And then at the end, when the Ferengi drops the tray, he was
laughing.
It totally won him over.
And then, of course, he went, oh, that was terrible.
I went, you enjoyed that and he just gave me a look which said
everything.
Yeah.
He went from a from a disbeliever to a lover in 45 minutes.
Yeah, well, it'll do that to you, I think.
I mean, the last episode he watched was Justice with us.
Yeah, that's true.
It's nearly as good.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it is time for us to
work out where we're going next.
As usual, you've chosen a hit, an uncontroversial hit, and it's my
turn to bring us back down to earth with something mediocre.
And so inevitably.
And so what I've decided, I've taken a look at our coverage page
on the website and it says that we have currently covered 14.68% of
the episodes of Star Trek that exist.
And then...
But again, to the year, we'll hit one fifth.
Or maybe, maybe, probably not.
Well, you'll hit a six.
Probably. next year.
Yeah, yeah.
We're making good headway, though.
We are in good headway. a lot to do.
There are, however, 6 series where we've done less than that
number as a percentage of episodes.
Oh, wait, D-Space 9 is not on that list.
Would you believe that Deep Space 9 is the lowest one of the list
of ones that we have done more than average of?
So the average is 14.68.
Deep Space 9, and I may not be including this episode, I'm not
exactly sure.
Deep Space 9 is 15.03.
We've done 26 episodes as far as the coverage page is concerned
today.
It may actually be more if we include this one.
I not exactly sure.
And so, and so those seasons are Discovery, which we've done the
least at 12.31, then prodigy, enterprise, Picard, Next Generation
and Voyager.
And so I'm going to choose one of them.
You can't really determine the quality from that list.
No, we can't.
It could be good.
It could go either way.
There's very probably mediocre.
Mediocre.
All right, I am going to give it a roll.
Your random Star Trek Voyager episode is one small step. season
six, episode eight.
Yes, very boring.
How boring do you wanna go?
It's off format, isn't it?
It's a little bit different from normal. space shuttles going up
or something.
Well, I mean, we kind of did that at the end of series 2 of
Picard.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
I think that is a bit boring.
I think it's the guy from Seinfeld, isn't it?
the astronaut in there.
We've got to give away to a chance.
Coming after his way.
It's quite difficult.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Your Random Star Trek voyager episode is the fight.
Season five, episode 19.
We haven't done a Chakotay episode, yeah.
You know?
And is he boxing?
Oh, my God.
Booth be's in it.
It's part of the trilogy of terror with coarse oblivion.
It's course oblivion, the Phi, and the disease, the Harry King.
Oh my goodness.
Oh, it is tempting.
It would knock out another dismal episode of Orger and leave us
more room in the remaining 85% of untitled Star Trek for good
ones.
I think we probably have overdosed on the good ones just as a
result of our process.
We may have to...
We've done some pretty bad ones as well.
What is the average?
We've good to bad to boys.
It's impossible to tell.
I'm going to try one more.
Okay So this...
No.
Actually, this is actually a possible good one, but it is part two
so it would involve watching 2 episodes, but they would be 2
episodes of Star Trek Prodigy, and it's season one, episode 20
Supernova part two.
So we would be watching Supernova part one and part two, which is
the series one finale, the two-part finale.
We've just done the series 2 opener, haven't we?
So in typical you and me style doing things backwards.
We go back and do the finale.
What do you think?
I mean, still the length of a normal 90s strike episode.
Yeah, that's true.
That's true, and it is fun.
I mean, we were well ahead on prodigy and prodigy dropped down
below the average because they dropped a whole 20 extra episodes
on us in one day.
What do you think?
Let's do it.
But what I'm going to do is a bit of homework because I remember
really loving the pilot for prodigy.
So I'm going to watch that 1st episode again.
That's a 2 or it's a double length one, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm going to watch that again and see where we started in that 1st
season.
Then see where we end and see if that provokes some conversation.
Okay, that's a great idea.
I think it goes on a hell of a journey in that 1st year.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a show that's absolutely not afraid to change its premise in
all sorts of interesting ways, and it definitely does set us up
with a new status quo for series 2, which we did see reasonably
recently.
So I reckon we go for it.
What do you reckon?
And Prodigy also is a beautiful looking television show.
It really is.
Not quite as beautiful as Lenar Visitor Singing Fever.
No, pretty beautiful. nearly as beautiful.
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley, where online at Untitled Star Trek Project
com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social
media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 8th of October 2024 and released
on the 18th of October.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Prodigy, Supernova Part one
and Supernova Part 2.
Yeah, I reckon.
I reckon, I think we said all the things.
I mean, if we wanna say more, we can say it in the tag.
No, that was so good.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, like I thought it was, like, I thought I would like it
because it is just the sort of thing that I normally like, you
know, like, uh, going off topic doing another genre, romances, you
know, and it, um, and it, like I said.
It's so much better than I thought.
Absolute example of, if you do the legwork with these characters
in all those early seasons, the playoffs are...
Well, it's not even that it's that they don't drop things like
they are making it up as they go along.
Like, absolutely, they're doing that, but they, um, They Like they
pick things up and they follow them up.
Not everything, you know, there are things, big things that happen
in the show that it drops, but, um, I don't know.
It's, I just think.
I just think it was much, much, much better than I expected much
better than I remembered.
I think I think they're, like, as they do, as DSM goes along, you
are literally watching an education of how to make television
aren't you?
From that 1st season to the last.
And it's not even perfect in the last season. is very, very good.
But they sort of learn what works. for the most part.
You go, right, let's let's do more of that. and throw away some of
those.
Well, when Battlestacking was on, like Ronald DeMour had a podcast
which he, where he would talk about the creative decisions that
he'd made.
And so, and I remember listening to that podcast really
irregularly and getting a real sense of them in the writer's room
discovering things, by watching the show, and then, you know, and
then writing those things into the show, and clearly that's how
you know, he works and how Ira Stephen Bear works and stuff.
Well, you saw it in the documentary when they redid the rise
room.
They got them all together. you watch that?
No, no.
Oh, so they literally get together and pitch...
Series eight, episode one.
Yeah.
Um, in like a, in an afternoon and it's so great and they're not
sort of got this big whiteboard and they're doing it exactly how
they used to do it with lots of ideas and they're rubbing things
out and they're going, oh, no, wait. we did that before and
they're making links.
And then at the end of the afternoon they go, oh, can we come back
tomorrow?
They want to go.
Let's make it.
Did they get Avery back?
No.
Yes.
So the 1st episode is all about like, he's not there. and at the
end of the 1st episode.
Yeah, in like a podcast, yeah.
At a moment of extreme drama.
But I think that's the thing, you know, the thing that Kurtzman
says, which I'd suspected was the case.
I think I said that before I heard it, that they don't want to
ruin the end of Deep Space 9.
So.
All right, shall we do the thing?