Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, last week we did an excellent episode of Lower Decks, and I
decided it was time to sort of balance things up a bit with an
episode of Voyager.
This is Voyager season two, episode 18, Death Wish.
And I'm happy to report that I thought this was pretty mediocre.
I'm sure that you agree with me.
I don't agree with you at all, actually.
I think this is one of my favourite Star Trek Voyager episodes and
watching it this time, aside from one scene, which I object too
strongly, I still think this is one of my favourite Star Trek
Voyager episodes.
It's very Voyager, I think, and maybe that's the problem with it.
It's an important issue that we have a dumb take on that we want
to litigate, and so we do a courtroom drama, and I'm torn because
I love a courtroom drama, and after all, devil's due is a
courtroom drama.
And so is uh, what's the, what's the season 21 with data called?
Oh, Measure of a Man.
Measuring a man. fantastic court.
Drumhead is a great corner of drama.
So it's something that Star Trek can do very well.
It's a pity where it shoved in this tiny, tiny, tiny, unimpressive
set, you know, just a normal standing set, and there is a lot of
standing around talking, which is inevitable in a courtroom
drama.
They spent all the money on that desert and the Christmas tree.
That's why.
Which is terrible.
That's wonderful. is wrong with you?
So boring.
But I do think there are some moments where inevitably Kate is
unbelievably great.
And there are some good bits, I think, you know, some interesting
things, like interesting choices they make about Q, which I think
is pretty good if you're going to bring Q back.
Let's do something completely different with him.
I thought the guest star...
This whole lipstick that they put on him in this episode is very
distracting.
Yeah.
So that's the lipstick that he does wear in encounter at
Firepoint.
Yeah, so I'm not quite sure what's going on there.
But also I want to say, shout out to, um, is it Gerrett Graham?
Garrett Graham?
I have to say his name.
It is superb.
He's really good.
Yeah.
He's very funny doing his sort of Samantha like bewitched hand
movements every time he does.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He does his own crappy version of the hand movement which is
pretty good.
He is in a deep space 9 episode.
Are you aware of this?
I am not. which one Captive pursuit?
Who does he play in captive pursuit?
He's the main hunter, I think, in captive pursuit.
Wow, that is such a different turn.
Well, he's had a load of latex as well.
And a load of makeup, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gosh.
But I really think he delivers such a moving performance at the
end of this.
Yeah he's really good.
I was sort of genuinely touched at this omnipotent being
committing suicide at the end of the episode.
I think I think it heads to the right conclusion and it could so
easily have not done that.
Yeah.
I mean, there are a few things here that I think date it
terribly.
And I think that the constant talk of suicide in an episode like
this, which I just don't think we would do now.
I think that we're much more circumspect when it comes to talking
about suicide and stuff and rightly so.
But this is a little bit more of a sort of assisted dying thing.
And that's kind of like an issue that's been resolved as well.
I think at least in Australia in most jurisdictions, if not all.
They're talking about it right now in this country.
Yeah, well, Brexit.
We're lingering on wilder, you know?
That's right So it's still a thing.
I guess it is still a thing.
Everything's set up a little bit too pat and I just, I don't
know.
I don't know.
I would rather watch a Voyager episode, though, that is attempting
to tackle a weighty issue.
Sensitively, than, I don't know, your romance of the week or
anomaly of the week or any of that usual bullshit they do.
They're trying to say something.
Maybe they don't quite get there, but I think in the journey of
that, through the dialogue, they do have things to say.
And I think it does genuinely have something to say about the Q
continuum and that running storyline as well.
And I love that.
More importantly of all, is there something about our queue that
we've been following since Encounter of Farpoint?
which I thought was really moving as well.
I did think that was great, and it played to sort of John
DeLancey's strengths as well.
I guess it's just a little bit too pass, in a way, it's a little
bit too easy to set up a courtroom drama, so that you have someone
whose job it is to argue both sides and stuff like that, just a
little bit kind of easy.
And it's not a very good courtroom drama, I think.
But why, yeah, I don't really think it's trying to be your
standard courtroom drama.
Not when you can beam in people from all of time and space.
I mean, that's very funny.
I did think this had some genuinely laugh out loud moments in it
as well.
I did love Q beaming onto the ship and going, have you got rid of
your menfo altogether?
Is this a ship of the Valkyries when all the women are left?
Yeah, there are some funny lines and it's doing some sort of
quirky things towards the start as well.
And we'll talk about the desert scene when we get there because I
really, it's not visually interesting.
I don't think it's trying to be visually interesting.
I think that's rather the point.
I just think it is trying, and I don't mean that in a negative way
in a way that the boyish very often doesn't even bother, you
know.
And like you said, force Kate Mulgrew into this unfortunate
dilemma that she's in between, you know, sending him to prison or
allowing him to kill himself.
It's a bit of a weird situation to be in, but she plays it so
well.
So, and there's, my favourite scene in this whole episode is, it's
nothing to do with the courtroom drama at all.
It's the bit where Q reveals the earth.
And for a 2nd, for just a 2nd, the look on her face is like, I
will do anything to see that.
So good.
You know, it's so awesome.
Just it catches her breath.
It's wonderful.
She's so good.
The other thing, the other thing that I think dates it that I just
hate.
I absolutely hate is the constant sexism from our future.
That's my one scene I really hate.
It's awful.
I don't understand the point of it.
It doesn't impact on the episode.
It doesn't reach any kind of serious resolution.
It's dumb.
It's what we go on to do in the queue and the gray, which is the
next one because there's a huge civil war between the cues on the
back of the decision that Jane Way makes here.
And that thrusts her into this weird role of a civil war heroine
that cues got it inside and it's just bullshit.
It's just the worst thing that ever happened with the cue.
But given Q came into DS9, and it was such a terrible fear, like
it just didn't work at all with what they were trying to do on DS9
at that point where they were trying to do sort of sub TNG
knockoffs and seeing if they were.
Surprise, they didn't.
Voyager is a sub TNG knockoff as a whole.
So, of course, comes onto this.
And actually, it's having a bit of fun for once as well, which is
not a very fun show.
And so I think it sort of delivers, it delivers some laughs.
It delivers some thoughtful moments and it gives some acting
opportunities.
I think it's a good all round up.
No, I think that's fair.
I think that's fair.
For me, it's just a little bit talky.
You've referred to this a few times, but when we do the call on
Zoom, I always try and get a screen grab as the background and
there's no shot that just isn't full of people talking.
Like it's that just terrible 90s thing where every spare moment
has to be filled where they're sort of just talking and talking
and talking.
And so I've just got the stupid comet over my left shoulder here.
Do you know what?
I was listening to Horror of Horrors, another Star Trek podcast
the other day.
I know who knew there was any more out there, apart from this live
effort.
And it was Scott McNulty's Random Trek, which you and I both
love.
We're still waiting for the event.
Scott, all right?
We're still waiting.
How many of these bloody things do we have to do before we get
your attention?
And he had someone on to a DS9 episode. one that you and I have
done, the House of Quark, and the Fella had never watched DS9
before, right?
And sort of knew TNG, but he wasn't a Star Trek fan.
So he was kind of new to the franchise.
And he could not believe how he goes, this, this is done in the
90s.
He goes, and it's filmed and paced more like 60s television, like
the original Star Trek.
Bad TV now.
He goes, this is the midway point.
So I should be seeing some progress from 60s to 90s to now.
And he goes, this is more like 70s TV being made in the 90s.
And I think there is something to that.
But we like the talk, right?
Like, we love 90s trade.
We do like the talk.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We like 90s track.
We do like 90s track.
But these kind of players to 90s.
Witnesses.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Wow.
You know what?
I mean, the 1st half it doesn't hang around for long.
They're zipping about all over the place.
The 2nd half we're going into an asteroid and a desert and all
sorts of places, like I finished plenty to talk about here.
Yeah, I think there is too.
And some great acting.
I'm looking forward to it we talk about it?
Yeah.
All right.
I'll count us in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
Okay, establishing shots, a meteor travelling through space.
Yeah, it's so boring, isn't it?
It's just the most mid voyager of opening.
Oh, it's not really a comet.
You're killing me.
Unusually, they don't put Q in the tile as well.
Was the Q reveal supposed to be a genuine surprise?
Oh, I don't know, actually.
And they might have decided just to not go with that.
So all of the queue episodes apart from encounter at FarPoint
which we used to like to call, encounter at FarPoint.
To have a street, that's true.
But then the other Voyager ones are the queue and the gray and
Q2.
So they're making a statement three.
Voyager?
Yeah, but they need the ratings by that point.
At this point, they still think this might be a success.
The fools.
Oh, yeah.
So this is such a shitty teaser as well.
It's just like, and it's a guy.
Oh, my goodness, you know.
Although, I suppose the fact that he's at a star for uniform is
supposed to raise an eyebrow.
Like, who's this?
Well, it works, but only if you've watched Star Trek the Next
Generation because the surprise is that that guy is Q. Suppose you
came in with Voyager.
You'd be going, well, what the hell's Q?
What's that?
What's a cue?
What do we care?
And so this story was actually pitched by Sean Pillar, Michael
Pillar's son.
So he gets a story credit. have an obsession with suicide for some
reason?
No.
But I think his idea included the idea of getting to our queue by
having another queue appear on Voyager because it's kind of like
and they're saying, and this is such a dumb thing to say because
they don't really understand quite the relationship between TV and
reality, but they say, are we really going to have Q?
Just, he only appears on ships that have their own series.
So he appears on...
Yes, that's right.
Because the only ships that we see are the ones that have their
own series.
I saw some wonderful queue episodes in my imagination in that
other show.
That's it.
Jesus, they cannot be that.
Backwards of television.
But I think what they meant to say is why is Q here?
Like, why is Q always on the Star Trek shows?
And so coming at it more indirectly and just having a Q, and then
our Q sort of comes along as a result.
Um, and the one innovation that this show has is it does give the
cure shape.
It does.
But also as well, like the only other time we've seen another
queue was that fellow that came in at the end of the one we just
did.
The very sitcom performance.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. full of sort of strange body language.
But it does say a lot about RQ when you put him up against another
character.
And the fact that they make this queue a revolutionary because he
wants to do something out of the norm and how that then mirrors
how our queue used to be before we reformed and became a good
member of the queue.
It really is saying something about his character.
And it ignites a spark in him.
There's like, God, yeah, he did used to be like that, you know?
that's why he makes a choice as he does at the end of the
episode.
And like, I don't think it actually works, given in the sense that
that's not what we saw on Star Trek, the Next Generation, but I
actually don't care, what it does is it takes the episode Deja Q
And I was wondering how, as I was watching this, how strongly they
would reference it, and they properly reference it, don't they?
They'd prefer to it.
They make it pivotal.
Did you hear that?
The rabbit thing is a rabbit.
Anyway. so bad.
I mean, so... on a separate Star Trek podcast.
I know there's 2 more.
There was a top five.
No, top 5 best Voyager underappreciated things.
And someone said the humour.
And they all according.
I was like, no, I'm out of this podcast now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You guys need to go and watch something that's actually funny.
Now he's being a creep.
No, no, but the way he delivers that line.
It's not big creepy.
It sort of like wonder. it's envious.
He goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. only live for 9 years.
It's a really great delivery.
Yeah.
Jane Williams literally got such a stick up her butt in this
episode, doesn't she?
It's your favourite hairdo as well.
Yeah, I love this hairdo.
It is my favourite hairdo because we're back in season two.
It's season two, episode 18 Death Wish.
Did we even say that?
I'm not sure we even said it anyway.
We're slumming it now on this podcast.
No, I drop listening to other ones.
Poor Ethan FedEx.
I had to get up in that ghastly makeup for that one joke.
That's it.
Yeah, it's so bad.
That's a living.
So he was doing his last words, isn't he?
Because this is setting up his line for the end, though, isn't
it?
When he genuinely does kill himself.
Yeah.
And he says something reasonably similar.
He says I die not for myself, but for you, here is his last word.
Enigmatic, whatever. provocative.
They love the stand.
But then we do hear his last words, and they are very good, and
they are along those lines, I think.
I just love his bewitched town movements every time.
So funny.
And why him trying to kill himself would get rid of all the men on
the ship.
I do not know.
But boy, come on, Nathan, it would be a better show.
We get rid of the 2 worst Roberts.
Harry Kim.
Come on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sorry, you quite like him.
Well, I quite like it.
For whipping left with, you know, 7 could still come along.
Janeway, Bilana, Ez.
So it's kind of funny too that, like, he's not quite as easy with
the comedy as Delancey.
I mean, John Delancey's really funny, isn't he?
Because he's very odd in Encounter at Farpoint.
Don't you think?
He's really st and weird.
Everybody is at that point.
No, I'm entirely sure what they're doing is what they're doing.
He's more comfortable in Height and Q, even though it's a dismal
episode.
He's more comfortable.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, he's not as funny, but then who is as funny as John
Delalse?
No, but he is camp and he is overplaying it in a sort of really
cute way.
Can I just, can I just very much point out the direction there?
It's that thing they do in 90s trek all the time where someone
moves to the side and they leave a huge space for somebody to
materialise.
But they always leave it about 10 seconds and you're like, why is
there so much space?
Oh, someone's coming.
There he is, yeah.
They do it with sort of beaming, they do it with queues
appearing.
It happens a lot.
I did love Bilana's line, where she just comes over the intercom
and goes, oh, the men have gone.
She's absolutely appalled.
I would have liked to have seen Q wearing the...
Oh, here we go.
Wearing the the next generation outfit, don't you think?
Well, in this, that red outfit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I suppose because it is a trial. this isn't his shit.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, this isn't his ship.
No, not the red outfit from Encounter at Farpoint.
The Star Trek, the Next Generation captain's uniform.
Oh, I see what you're saying.
Yeah.
Yeah, because he's from the other show, you know.
Oh, I love it.
He's just insulting everybody on the bridge.
But that's not funny either.
How very wilderness of you.
Who says that?
That's not a funny line.
What's going on?
I think it's sort of in line with the casual racism with all the
Chikotay's ancestry anyway.
It's not eaten any books lately or anything like that, which even
that's a bit mean.
The boy that cried wolf.
I know you haven't.
So terrible.
I love this, so the cat mouse game, the poor Voyager ship ends up
in subatomic particles hanging from a Christmas tree.
Oh, it's fun.
Yes, it is fun.
Yeah, I guess.
So we're going to the Big Bang.
Let yourself enjoy it, Nathan.
Yeah, it's all right.
You have a much better time.
We're just sort of standing around and talking and then looking at
the thing on the screen.
It's like, oh, weird thing on screen.
And now back to just us juttering.
Do you know what I mean?
And describing what's happening.
Like a shot from outside would be nice.
I would, you know, like appreciate that.
I still don't think it's fair to make comparisons with TV mate
today.
When technology has come on in leaps and bounds and you can do
things so cheap, you know, I think the efforts that they go to in
this as a whole episode, location work, and we pop into that.
They make that tiny little asteroid cell.
That very cheap little asteroids.
They even laid that beautiful meal out in the mess hole for
Janeway to have.
But don't you think it would have looked impressive from the
outside?
Like it could have looked scarier.
It could have looked weirder.
If you think about something like where no one has gone before
from Star Trek, the Next Generation.
I don't know, you got those little sperms coming towards the view
screen.
So I think they're great.
You know, we're being attacked by protons and I would have loved
to have seen the fat. the ship.
Compare to them.
Yeah, of course you do.
There you go again, look, that space was left in the middle of
that show.
Watch how many times it happens.
You just know where he's going to come in nowadays, they would
move the fucking camera and let him move it and beat him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, dear. really funny.
Oh, I did love this with a Christmas tree.
Computer, I need a wider angle.
So I, this is very odd.
Look, because we can't get we can't properly see it.
We've never seen it.
I mean, I'm sure they could have done an establishing shot of a
Christmas tree.
That wouldn't have cost too much.
You know, Rick Berman, get your tree out of the attic.
We need it for a scene.
It's very odd.
Well, and clearly John Delancey is in a room with a Christmas
tree.
Why they couldn't have done that.
Yeah, exactly.
Do a shot of it.
They have a camera there.
Oh, listen to this.
The Vonted Q, so fun Knighted. the end of the universe.
She's great Yeah.
So here he is.
I'm not sure who would sort of poison fruit more with a look, Cisco
or Janeway, but they've both got it, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So the episode with, what's that called?
Q less, isn't it?
when they're boxing in course, yeah.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Pretty terrible.
Probably, Picard never hit me.
Oh, Bashir.
But he's littering all over Vash.
Oh, it's horrible.
But this, like when he's asking her, calling her deer and stuff
like that, touching her hand and things.
It's so bad.
It's not that bad. the scene where he turns up in the bath.
That's just terrible.
Or is it a bed?
It's in the bathroom.
No, in bed.
Oh, it's in the bath in queue in the gray.
That's when it, yeah.
Okay.
Because I think we like it in the little gay panic moment in
tapestry where, you know, he wakes up.
Morning, darling.
But, but that's an established relationship.
They've known each other at that point.
You know, episode after episode after episode and it's not the, you
know, like it's not a man creeping on a woman.
So it's not quite as awful.
And it is just like, why are we constantly talking as if we're
surprised that the captain's a woman.
Like, this is...
Now, I guess we find out... the punt's really fair.
He says that could be one of the execs, you know, watching her in
series one whilst they were filming.
That's right.
And I'm embarrassed for Kate.
Like, Kate does that reaction.
It's just like, oh, fuck am I putting up with this?
Do you know what I mean?
Like he's looked at her arse.
And then she does that throw to the, the, you know, commercial
break and I'm embarrassed for her.
The reason I think they kind of get away with the relationship is
because John DeLancey and Kmart grew just adored working together
and you can see the chemistry between them, you know?
I think she's the reason he kept coming back because she loved
working with him a lot.
Oh, I really, I love this relationship between Tuvok.
Me too. the other cue.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so, so again, we giving Tuvok a role, which makes a change.
Early on, they did remember to do that, yes.
And he's good?
Like he's really good in this.
The best bit, don't you think?
The best bit is when he goes to him.
Oh yeah, I'm doing this for you, but I don't agree with what you
want to do.
And the Q, who knows everything, goes, wow, you've surprised me.
You have no idea what a gift that is for me.
It's a rare thing.
Thank you.
Yeah, it's pretty good, isn't it?
Even the fact that they're talking about the way the queue just
barge in, you know, they've, they don't care about you and it, and
it, he kind of says, is that something that you've always done or
is it what happens when you become omnipotent?
And that's kind of interesting because this episode does establish
that the cube became omnipotent.
Because they develop technology or something.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, he compares the ship, uh, to whatever it is the queue can
do.
And so they've just sort of surpassed them in technology.
So the Q aren't gods, they're people who've acquired this power
and they have immortality as a result.
And I think that's, like, that gives them a shape, that gives them
a history, and then the episode gives them a history, doesn't it?
By making him a philosopher who's challenged things.
Um, and having him have opinions about our cue.
Like all of that stuff, I think, is really good.
What I appreciate about the desert landscape, apart from the fact
that they are outside, which is always refreshing on Voyager, is
they do really try to stress that actually it's a bit of a curse
being able to do whatever you want, and it's really fucking boring
you know, once you've been the scarecrow and read the paper and
all of that, you know, it's very literal.
But on Star Trek, usually they just tell us the metaphor.
They don't show us.
It's quite nice.
I don't think they're successful with it.
And we'll get there when we get there.
But basically, my contention is you only live one moment at a time
like all the other moments recede into the past.
And so being immortal.
I'm not sure why that's bad.
Because like, you're never present when you're not there.
Do you know what I mean?
Your entire experience is you're there.
Like, you know, I can imagine getting bored, like, you're old and
sick and you have no friends left and like, and that would be why
you might be tired of life.
But like, why would you get tired of life?
otherwise?
I just don't get it.
You know, and there's a great speech at the end here, which I
think is really beautiful, but I just don't buy automatically that
immortality is a curse.
I think mortality is a curse and death is a curse.
I don't think immortality is, and I don't buy that, uh, it's death
that gives us purpose or, that is such a shitty.
It's so bad.
This, this, this, 1st all, it's certainly not the 1st and it won't
be the last time I'll disagree with you, but I'm 44 years in and
I'm already.
I've had enough.
The only thing that gets me through is doing this with you
frankly.
We don't have to stop doing this.
We haven't stopped.
Stop, stop, stop.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it is terrible.
But this is not, see, I like this and I like it when the other
rando people come into the court case.
It just makes it a bit more interesting than just being in this
room.
So yeah, but it is a terrible set, isn't it?
It's a really bad room.
It's typical... sort of gun metal gray, isn't it?
Well, no, it's sort of green and brown and stuff.
It looks like he's got jaundice with that lipstick on, doesn't
he?
It is a thing that he does have, though, in Encounter at Far
Point.
I don't know why they've decided to give it to him here, but, you
know, he's odd.
Oh, now that's on the nose when he says it suicide is the actions
for a mentally unbalanced person.
That line just would not exist now. you're right.
No, no.
And so here's the problem too.
I don't understand why this asylum thing is about his desire to
kill himself because once we decide that he's being oppressed and
imprisoned and prevented from, You know, like he's being
imprisoned, he can't do anything.
He's not free to act, and he asks for asylum.
Why are they asking what he's going to do with the asylum?
Do you know what I mean?
It's none of their business.
And like I just don't understand why that even comes into
consideration here.
But the suicidal act is less, it is less about him being bored
isn't it, and more about shaking up the continuum?
That's the reason he wants to do it.
It's like a revolutionary act.
That's right.
And so it's the state making him live.
Do you know what I mean?
And it's put in those terms, isn't it?
And he, so he wants asylum because he's oppressed politically, and
that's really the only question.
Like, I don't know why why she has to have an opinion about what
he does next.
Well, and how any of this will be relevant to what a human being
rules that one of the queue continuum can have asylum.
Like, why would they take that seriously anyway?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
And what's the capital punishment thing?
How do we know that the Q, um, do capital punishment?
Has that been established?
Don't think so.
Oh, I don't I don't think so.
I don't know, because we haven't seen enough Q, have we?
Oh, here we go.
This is where they're talking about Q being disciplined in the
past for an appropriate behaviour.
Social anarchy versus order, he says.
Yeah, yeah.
So that's not explicit.
And when you watch it, you think, oh, maybe we're talking about
Deja Q. Um, and it, and we don't see a queue who is reined back
in.
In fact, it's very unclear.
Like, I don't think the cue are very well defined at all.
Do you know what I mean?
Why are they putting us on trial in episode one and in the final
episode at all?
I don't know.
Do you know what I mean?
He's cue acting on his own.
He seems to be in trouble.
Why?
He's trying to say something about us, but missing the mark, but
I'm mild.
Well, yeah, I mean, it's the trial in Encounter at Farpoint is
mirroring the kind of experience of watching it, which is, is this
show going to be any good?
Do you know what I mean?
Is this version of humanity, something that we want to spend time
watching a TV show about?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, that's what's happening.
Oh, here we go.
So this is weird.
It's so weird.
Hey, weren't you the guy with the truck?
So Riger is here.
Now, he has been on, so Frakes has been on DS9, not as Thomas
Riker, as Thomas Riker.
He's obviously an enterprise in the final episode of Enterprise.
He's in P...
God.
He's been in lower decks.
So he's done quite a few Star Treks, but here he is in...
In generations, he's in an original series. technically.
I suppose.
Yeah, yeah, I guess so.
So this, this, this is super weird.
Like who the fuck is this guy?
So this is Maury Ginsburg?
And he's playing a character called Maury Ginsberg.
They've kind of gone, wow, you've got a weird name.
We'll just name your character that.
He's clearly not that Maury Ginsberg because this Maury Ginsberg
He was not born in 1970.
And it, do you know what I mean?
I feel a bit about the groovy chick with the red hair.
So, I think what's really funny about that is he, this is about
them going to Woodstock, and if it hadn't been for Q, Woodstock
wouldn't have happened because he wouldn't have noticed the thing
and he wouldn't have met the beautiful girl with the red hair, with
whom he settles down in order to become an orthodontist, a small
town.
It's just like, I don't quite know what's happening here.
But he's kind of like a normal guy.
I think they're just trying to find sort of offbeat ways of
showing, aren't they, of how the queue is affected.
He's affecting physics.
He's affected people's lives in intimate ways.
And of course, he gave us Tom, Tom Riker, Will Riker, you know.
Both, really.
And had a profound effect on our lives. and save humanity from the
Borg.
That's the other thing that they say as well.
So, you know, Reich is important for that reason.
Um, Yeah, it's, I mean, the Q also introduced us syllable.
So, you know.
Yes, that's right.
They were just all paying a day.
Well, this Q did that.
But making sure that Woodstock happens, I think, is kind of
adorable.
Like, I'm here for that.
It's a bit of a problem though, isn't it?
Like what you said there about the consistency of the queue over
time, I think the different creatives had a different vision of
who it was.
And we talked about it before.
Maurice Hurley saw Q is a bit sinister and sort of pushing
humanity into dangerous spaces like in Q-Hoo.
He wrote that one.
But then Michael Piller came in and said, no, let's use him to
sort of mirror against data and say something about our characters
and use the omnipotence that way.
Pillar writes this script as well.
Sorry, I just noticed the composition of that shot, which left a
big, big gap in the corner so that the photograph could appear.
Once you start spying in, you can't miss it.
I've ruined it for me from now on.
Then, towards the end of Voyage.
They don't really know what to do, Q. So they bring in Delancey's
son and try and do like very silly episodes.
And then in Kursman trick.
They try and do something very profoundly moving as a character
drama between him and Picard.
So it's quite different across, it's interesting to see the
changes, but you're right.
There is no sort of, there's no through line.
No.
And, like, in a way, I don't mind that because there's just this
episode, and I think this episode has a great little character arc
for John Delancey, and, like I said, gives the cure shape, gives
them a history.
Um, I don't know why Isaac Newton dies in a, in a Liverpool
dentist prison.
Why does every showing this...?
Why the apple fell out of the tree?
Have you noticed that?
All these genre shows try to explain how that happened.
Yeah, Doctor Who just fell.
Oh, dear.
But, you know, these characters are a bit, they're a bit more fun
than our usual boy in regular, so happy days.
Yeah, yeah.
Actually, I think Maury Ginsberg's pretty hilariously sweet. how's
a hippie going to Woodstock and then he becomes an orthodontist
with chill for children.
What I love is Janeway going, I want you to imagine, gentlemen
that you've been beamed 300 years into the future.
And she goes, you're having a weird dream.
Shit, that's not working.
Oh, don't worry, none of you gonna remember this anyway.
Yeah.
Oh, dear.
I do wonder sometimes if this was later, Voyager, Mulgrew would be
a bit more relaxed and having a bit more fun with this.
He's very serious.
I know it's a serious topic, but she did relax a lot, sort of
around 4 and five.
Yeah, yeah.
That might have been good And if they're just kind of like not...
To be honest with you, I can't see any difference between this and
stock case set number 68, if I'm honest.
No, it's got a bit of perspects.
There's certainly there's certainly the back wall of stock tapes
at one there.
There we go back here.
It doesn't look too tough, does it?
No, no, it doesn't look good.
Mind you, neither does that desert.
Do you know, I was just thinking about that desert and maybe if
this was a Kurtzman crew, Obviously they do it. they visualise it
in a way that the crew will understand.
Well, because this crew is so boring, that that's all they could
possibly imagine.
But if it was a Kursman crew. might be something visually
arresting.
Well, I just think the problem with it is it thinks it's cleverer
than it actually is, and in a way, it doesn't sell, it doesn't
sell the, we've done everything now and we're just bored.
Like we are definitely bored.
Um, I don't know.
I don't know.
I remember when I 1st watched it and I I did.
I remember thinking it was a smart way of just selling how
tedious.
It would be.
Yeah, to be able to do whatever you want.
I think it's Delancey's line of, oh, we've all been the
scarecrow.
I love that line.
I love that we've all been the scarecrow line.
I mean, just to get out in the sunshine.
Five minutes.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, you see, like, I think they even do a crane shot, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, so it is, I actually like how quickly they decide to just go
yeah, screw it, let's do that.
You know, like, uh, let's show them the continuum.
Let's take some people here.
Um, Oh, there's just that one.
Yeah, well, this is a good scene.
Yeah.
And this is like, you know, you know what we said about, um, no
his track being a lot of talk.
This is the sort of scenes where it works, where you just have 2
good characters like sharing or bonding or come into a
realisation.
This is what Knight is Trek done, does really well when it's well
written.
So, again, you know, we're kind of making it an odd choice.
Like, it's not his call.
Do you know what I mean?
And like, I understand why you don't want someone to make the
decision to end their life, you know, like, and you want to stop
people from doing that. of course you do.
You save a life, you know, if you can.
But, I don't know, like you can't, I don't know.
I don't know.
I just think there's something uncomfortable about it all.
It's such a nonsense, moral dilemma, because it just, how do we
compare this to our lives?
When would we ever be in a position where it's either prison or
suicide?
You know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
And it doesn't, so it is sort of trying to touch because we've got
him saying that elderly and infirm Vulcans end their lives.
Which I do that, okay.
No, I don't know, but it sounds like the sort of logical thing
that they would do.
But, um, I don't know.
I mean, you can see YQ would be beguiled by Captain Janeway, can't
you?
Yeah, I'm just, I'm super put off by this.
Although she seems to be winning in this scene.
She seems to be having more fun than him.
And you introduced us to the book.
Thank you very much.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uncovered my one redeeming virtue.
Are we caught saying Kathy?
Oh, I suppose he calls him Jean-Luc.
Like, maybe we're at times, maybe we're looking...
No, no, no.
I think Colin Kathy or Kate is fine.
Um, uh, But it's the, it's the sexism thing. turning up in her bed
it's calling her Madam Captain.
It's the particular stuff where it's because she's a woman.
I mean, he didn't go on Deep Shace 9 and talk about how Cisco was
black.
And thank God because that would be now rich. have the big
fisticuffs.
Yeah, it's a bit awkward. isn't it And it is like, it's like we're
not comfortable.
Like, what's the 1st thing that he's going to notice about the
ship?
Oh, it's a woman in charge.
Look at Kate's reaction to that.
This is just one of those rare moments that you talk about a lot
where we're allowed to see what she's thinking just by her
acting.
She doesn't explicitly say a word.
Which is so wonderful. then she looks back to the window. she's
gone too. it's beautiful So good. she was hired, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And that's what I like.
I think she gets another one of those in here too.
And I do, I do think the way they, you know, they, they write um
the, the result of the hearings in very considered ways.
But she just delivers it in a beautiful way.
Yeah.
That's why she was hired as well.
Someone that can make something of this terrible dialogue.
But I just love how they just quickly, he just quickly whispers.
We get Kate and he goes, yep, okay, fine.
We're doing that.
And look at him.
Look at his look, like, um, like Q2 is doing a sort of little
comedy smug thing.
Like he's still playing at camp.
He's still being a bit silly.
It is another of what I was talking about.
Oh, hang on.
I just want to I just want to look at this very nice shot because
I said to you the other day when we were talking about state of
flux about how it was all sort of location work for TV and a lot
of this is, but there is a very nice establishing shot in a
second.
Which is just a green shot?
Yeah.
Well, you just see the, yeah, the vastness of the location.
Yeah, there we go.
That's very nice.
And boy, just breath in the air for a second.
Space.
But you see, this infinity never closes, a clock with no hands.
Like, it's just not all that clever.
What he reading?
The old book, the new...
So nothing, you know.
The pinball machine that says galaxy.
They're playing what's that called?
What they're playing?
Croquet with planets.
There's the dog.
Have we have all tried being the dog as well?
You get to be the dog.
Yeah, like I just... in that sort of disquieting way that they did
in caretaker.
Do you remember when they went to the ranch?
Well, that's the other thing too.
They're just doing this.
Do you know what I mean?
St.
Rog, that's why I don't know that. that's right.
No, no, but do you know what I mean?
It's like, this is how we do giant alien entities.
Do you know what I mean?
We just make it the American...
What's the cheapest way we can do?
Infinity?
He goes, well, it would just find a rose.
And then we could say the rose just goes round in a circle.
Yeah, like I just didn't like what?
I don't know.
I just like looking at Delancey's choices here where he's really
considering what the other queue is saying and he knows he's got a
point.
Even though he's saying all the right things.
I don't know. often Delazi is just used for comedy.
I think he's given something a bit more substantial here.
But like this is kind of nothing, you know, like they're all just
standing around reading.
They smile, but it's a fake smile because they have to smile.
Like, I don't think it tells us anything and I don't think it's
visually arresting.
I think it's a bit nothing.
And given how rare any location work is in Voyager, we're inclined
to give it a pass, but I do think it is pretty unimaginative.
Thank you so much for going outside. we'll take anything That's
right.
I think that's absolutely it.
But the, the, the character line through this of cue, our cue, um
having a profound impact on the other cue, and now at the end of
this episode, he has a profound effect, that's just a lovely
that's a lovely new journey.
Yeah, I think that's I think that is pretty good.
And you know what?
It does lean into what I was talking about last week with lower
decks.
Remember I was talking about, you know, doing episodes away from
our regular characters being more interesting.
Yeah, that's what's happening here.
The big 3 line is these two.
I'm a born again Q, he says, that life's behind me.
Yeah, and like we've not seen any evidence of that.
But I mean, he has been sent here to kind of get Q. Do you know
what I mean to stop you from doing whatever it is doing?
And I think these 2 performances have to be so on point for the
for this relationship to work.
The way he just looked at him there where he said, you really
inspired me.
You know, you believe him.
Yeah.
And the stuff about amusement as well, because there's no
amusement left.
Um, yes.
We paid the price by forcing you to stop.
Yeah.
So, like...
I I think...
I don't understand your problem with this.
I do.
Yeah.
It's not really, it's not really saying anything.
It's saying something about this weird makeup race, you know
that's sort of beyond our understanding.
Except, though, it does say something about the impact of sort of
non-conformity and rebellion against a status quo and stuff like
that.
You know, that he is a rebel.
Um, you know, he's he's challenging orthodoxies and inspiring
people to do something different.
Oh, even the magazines are boring.
Do you remember that fabulous magazine last week?
in the TOA?
yeah.
It's so much better a week before.
What's happened to Star Trek in 30 years?
Exactly. much, much worse magazine game, certainly.
But yeah, so it does become about political oppression and in a
way.
The thing that should convince Janeway is that he has a right to
um, behave in a way that, you know, the state doesn't want him to
behave.
He's a political prisoner, and so he deserves asylum on that
basis.
And I think that's kind of where we go, isn't it?
Yeah, although you're right, it is so obsessed with the sort of
suicide theme that her entire wrap-up is about that, about the
outside, he's going to do rather than, you know, just giving him
free will.
Yeah, that's right, because he's a, you know, an agent who's
oppressed by his government and um, he has the right to be free
you know.
Um, And so the death thing is incidental in a way.
I mean, the reason that death is the form that it takes is because
these people are immortal.
And it's just doing something different.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But disease is immortality is what he says.
Yeah, you see, I mean, I don't quite get it.
I think perhaps, you know, the one show that sells that to me more
than any other, I guess, is the good place at the end, where we
discover that immortality, because they don't need anything.
They just end up getting dumber and stuff because there's nothing
to strive for and stuff.
And I think that does a better job of selling it than just we're
all standing around a house being bored and not talking to one
another, and then just having, having Q explain the situation to
us.
And whilst I did find his suicide at the end of the episode moving
just because of how it was played.
The choices that the characters made in the last episode of The
Good Place had me in like Fits of Tears.
I'm in tears for the entire episode.
The difference between the 2 shows.
Yeah, you know.
Oh, God, this is a scene I really hate.
Why does he look like Scrooge?
Well, I think it's to try and take the edge off of it to make it
more comical.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, he's wearing a sort of, yeah, like, you know, like a
Victorian kind of night dress and stuff like that in order to make
it sillier.
Fabulous velvet nightcount though, doesn't she?
No, it's Saturn.
Look out.
It's beautiful.
Do you have one, Nathan?
No, no.
You smoke your pipe in the evening.
She looks awesome and her hair looks fantastic.
I don't get this.
I don't get at all why Q would be interested romantically in a
human being.
I just don't.
And I don't know why it's here. isn't.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that's what he's doing, right?
He's making a part.
Yeah.
But it's me, and you see, it's me, and it... then he says.
Forget Mark.
I'll show you a good girl time.
Oh, it's just weird.
Yeah, yeah.
And it muddies the whole episode as well.
Yeah, but I mean, what he's trying to seduce her with is a return
home.
Why does he feel close to her, though?
I don't understand.
What's been established?
Yeah, and we know that he's had a, he has relationships with human
women, and this, you managed to preserve your femininity so well
is so full, isn't it?
And she just walks over to him and says, Lee.
Which is absolutely the right response.
Like, she's really, really good, but that's a really, like, it's
just, you managed to preserve your femininity and yet maintain
authority or something like that. as if that was in any doubt.
Yeah, with any public work.
That's just stupid.
I know plenty of men in authoritative positions that manage to
maintain their femininity, all right?
Yes, good for them.
I did work with someone who objected to the fact that the ladies
were allowed to wear skirts in the summer and the men still had to
so he wore a skirt.
Good for you.
Excellent.
Brilliant.
Yes.
So again, you're right.
This speech is all about the suicide, isn't?
And she should just be granting asylum.
I think that, I mean, this bit slightly interesting where she says
I have to consider the impact that's going to have on the
continuum, and it's going to change a society, but she kind of
says, actually, you just need to get over that.
That's some.
The prime directive apply here.
I know they're a higher rate.
They're not warp, they're warp capable.
Is it just not?
This is the important thing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
They can't come in and kind of start pretending to be the
Archangel Gabriel and stuff.
But she can make a decision where, and we've already established
that the 2nd cue making a wrong call led to a 100 years war
between the Romulans and the Klingons or something like that.
So she can make these decisions which allow him to make that
decision that could cause catastrophic effects.
And that's okay.
Well, again, you know, like, what are you going to do?
Anything could happen as a result of anything.
You can't just sit there and do nothing.
I think she's doing the right thing.
I've used ours, I come on one time.
Um Yes, so...
Do we know at this point that he is going to assist in the
suicide?
I don't think we do, do we?
No, we don't.
I think the seeds have definitely been so I don't think he knows.
Because DeLancey played that scene in the desert like he was truly
considering what was being said.
Yeah.
Look at Janeway's face.
Oh, this speech, I think, is really good.
This actually really properly moved me this speech.
Um, because that's what I think too.
This.
She says, I like this life.
You know, the mysteries of mortal life.
This is all new to you.
We saw it in Hugh Hugh, from pleasures you've never felt before.
I like this life.
You look at her.
It's beautiful and like that appeal is too easy and and obviously
it's not going to take, but I really love that it got made.
Yeah, I mean, we would buy it if we weren't in this dreary room.
I like this life.
Are you sure?
Anomaly of the week.
Yeah, riveting stuff.
But that is a good, that, like, that's what I was thinking.
I was thinking now it's new.
Like, yes, I'm mortal.
And look how just a few weeks ago we saw Q respond to that
change.
Do you know what I mean?
With eating chocolate sundaes and stuff and, you know, experiencing
hunger and everything.
He's a fun character.
Had they chosen to keep him on the ship?
It might been really great.
A queue.
Yeah, I think it's a bit quick that we just go to the establish
next shot.
Oh, he's in sick pain.
They have to.
Now, we get a dialogue thing of how we're going to use him.
Because we only have 2 minutes and 59 seconds to go, you know?
Yeah.
Could we not just one time have had, you know, the doctor did not
manage to repair him with his usual skill?
He is in fact dying.
So, but this is clever though, isn't it?
Because, like, there's hemlock of some kind.
This is my final gift to my people.
I'll tell them that those were my last words because that was
nearly his last words.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. pretty good.
And even the fact, even when he dies before he gets his last word
out, it's just so well played this soon.
And her holding his hand as well, I like.
And I look at her.
She's very tactile with people in this show, isn't she?
Yeah, and I like it.
Oh, the doctor's made his contractual appearance.
Well done.
Yeah, there's the best Robert for just a few seconds.
But the where did the hemlock come from which we weren't wondering
or we might not have thought to wonder?
I've got it for him.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes, that's really good, isn't it?
Logical Chevok?
don't think so.
It is a nice sting, isn't it?
Yeah I think it is pretty good.
That's not a bad ending.
The trouble is, is where this leads is the unfortunate thing.
It really does lead to...
We only have 2 episodes left, don't we?
Of Q, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but the next one is genuinely.
I do think this is one of the best voyro episodes.
I think that's one of the worst.
Right okay.
Okay.
Michael Peeler has left the building and Jerry Taylor is now right
in the queue.
Right, okay.
Right.
She was also on the list of 5 underrated things about Voyager.
I was hurling furniture around the room for that point.
Janeway, look, she looks, looks off camera.
Oh, we've all learned something this week, haven't we?
Cue the great. off we go Let us never speak of this again.
But I do, I do think they could have just done like a comedy cue
Voyager episode and instead they chose to do a character drama and
they did try to engage with a serious topic and I do appreciate
that.
No, I agree.
I agree.
I just don't think it's super successful, I guess.
And although maybe the 1st time I saw it, I did like the depiction
of the Q continuum.
Um, I think it's a bit thin.
Now.
What I love about this period of orbit.
There's just a 2nd half of that 2nd season.
It is pretty much one banger after another.
They really pulled their socks up.
We've covered a couple of them, haven't we?
We've done alliances, resolutions.
But there's tons that we still haven't done yet.
The Thor, Deadlock, Mailed.
You know, they basically, they were told this show is not
delivering.
You really do need to start doing this.
And I think this is another good example of the different hats
that they're trying on at this point.
Yeah, it's still one of my favourite runs, Voyager, and I wasn't
disappointed by this.
I do understand your reasons because I don't think it's entirely
clear about what it's trying to say except about the 2 Q
characters.
There it's, it's, it's very focussed.
I think what it does with the cue is something that we haven't
seen before and I like it a lot.
It does give them shape.
It makes them a bit more interesting without ruining anything, and
I think that's some, you know, something that could easily have
been done badly, and I'm glad they attempted it.
If you're going to bring Hugh back, make him do something that we
haven't seen him do before, and they definitely achieve that
here.
Don't trade off past glories add.
Add to the myth.
But then they do try that again in the next one.
They do something different, and that is that civil war, and they
just do it in a very literal way with the Voyager crew as civil
war characters and cannons going off and it's just really awful.
But they do bring along Susie Paxson as Susie Q. And she does have
the masterful line. cute.
Q is he's brought Janeway's dog and the puppies to the ship from
earth to please her and she beams in and goes, get your hands off
that dog. and then she goes, I'm not talking about the puppies.
Oh my god.
Oh I love him.
Oh, yeah, voyager humour. did talk about that earlier.
Yeah, terrible.
Well, I'll say this about Death Wish.
There are worst episodes of Star Trek Borja.
That is absolutely undeniably true.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to
find out where we're going next time.
This was my choice, the usual middling choice you've come to
associate with me.
Yes, my house.
Me in control of the randomiser.
But it's your turn.
So it's your job to come up with something good.
Where are we going?
Well, let's move away from the problematic Voyager to probably the
more problematic Star Trek, the next generation, only, because
that is the 90s trek where that we've covered the least, and
there's a lot of it.
Apparently so.
Yeah, it's 3rd from bottom.
Wow, okay.
Of all the series. because they keep choosing Enterprise to kind
of make up the balance.
Do not throw up a series 7 episode, all right?
We've done too many of those.
All right.
Okay.
And they're never good.
Right. here we go Oh my god, I don't believe it.
Season seven, episode six.
No, I'm pressing it again anyway.
Oh, wait, what is it though?
It was Phantasms.
Councillor Troy is a birthday cake.
That's all right.
Okay, here we go.
With mint frosting.
Oh, no.
This could almost be perfect.
Season six. episode nine.
The quality of life.
Ah, yes.
After peanut hamper last week.
What do you reckon?
Well, I mean, it very much is doing Star Trek Star Trek, isn't
it?
It's very Star Trek.
It's also, you know, TNG twee, which can be pretty terrible.
And it is a data episode.
And we haven't done too many of those.
Really?
Yeah, it's quite a good data episode, I think.
Oh, I think that is a sound choice actually.
Okay.
All right.
I'm up for that.
Either way, let's be honest.
But, yeah, I think, for me, like, I was so on board with three
four, and five.
And so 6 is kind of the 1st time that I felt conscious that I was
watching like completely new Star Trek because like when I started
watching it, it was all sort of a bit of a mess and stuff like
that.
And so 6 is where I start noticing like different people's names
like different producers in the opening credits and stuff.
And I start to wonder whether this is really as good as it had
been the past few years and I don't know.
Like, I have a very strong memory of that feeling, but I don't
know whether it's justified or not.
I've sort of come to the conclusion doing untitled Star Trek
project that 3 and 4 are consistently very strong.
I think 5's a bit middling.
There's good episodes in there, but I think there's a lot of mid
in there as well.
And I think 6 is their sort of last rows of success.
If you look at the episodes across, about two thirds of them are
good to gray.
This probably falls just below great.
Um, and then seven.
Wow.
I don't know what happened.
Everyone's bored by that point. and they all want to be doing DS9
instead.
Yes, that sounds fun.
Well, let's discover the journey of the exacombs.
Yeah, brilliant.
Okay.
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find
subscription links and links to our social media accounts.
Now, podcast artwork is by Kayla Sisrin, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 17th of September 2024 and
released on the 27th of September.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek the Next Generation, the
quality of life.
Did you really were there?
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, it's me.
It's your turn.
Oh no, what's this?
I've got a notification on untitled Star Trek.
Denise Crosby.
It's so disheartening that I've received such insulting and
disrespectful comments.
What is she talking about?
Maybe this could be the tag.
Let's find out.
What is she talking about?
Come on.
By my post to invite curious and like-minded folks to a Zoom event
I'm taking part in.
No need to hate on a different opinion, taught less, listen more.
Oh my god.
She transphobic?
Oh god, let's have a look.
Oh God.
Join me and these amazing women on October the 3rd to support
Kamala Harris for president.
Oh okay.
That seems like the right thing to be doing.
Americans, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, she's on Twitter, isn't she?
So, you sort of deserve everything. you get.
No, I don't mean that.
I mean, that's the kind of reaction you're likely to get, isn't
it?
Like, that's why it's so awful.
If you watch the discourse when our new strange new worlds or
Discovery episode drops, yeah, it's vile.
Yeah, terrible.
I mean, you can just watch the old stuff, you know, if that's what
you want.
If you want to watch, you know, good high quality sexist drama, put
death wish on instead.
Okay, let me.
I think he made a sound point about the magazines. significantly
worse, weren't they?
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, Jason Rowe had a great magazine game, haven't we?
Jupiter eight.
Yeah, yeah.
Okey-dokey.
Right.
Okay.
Okay, okay, okay.
Hang on.
Clear all.
Actually, hang on.
I want to look at the percentages.
Give me a 2nd.
Mm, I haven't looked at the percentages for ages.
I'm going to put that up.
That was fun when I realised that could just be part of the bill
process is creating that.
That's pretty good.
Oh, Strange New Worlds at 4 episodes is at the top.
What a shame.
Okay, hang on.
We'll stand upon.
Okay.
Okay, yeah.
Okay.
All right, it's the end of the episode.