Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, we're back in the final series of Enterprise, and we've
already done the last 3 episodes of Enterprise, but after this
episode, we will have done the last five.
So this is a 2 parter, at the end of series 4, and it just comes
before Demons and Terra Prime, and then these are the Voyages.
It's called Inner Mirror Darkly, and Inner Mirror Darkly, part 2.
We're going to watch both of them because that's the rule.
Um, and it's a pretty amazing two-parter.
I really enjoyed it.
What did you think?
Proof conclusive that Enterprise was finally getting his act
together in its final season, just as the curtains going down.
I would quite like to issue an apology to the creators of
Enterprise, the actors taking part, and to you, because when you
predictably chose Enterprise to put into the randomiser, I was
there rolling my eyes going, oh, God, you know, it's going to be
terrible.
It's going to be awful.
I had a lot of fun watching this episode.
For once.
I feel like all the rules are off.
All the enterprise rules are off and no one has to make any boring
speeches and Archer can be as much of a prick as he likes and, you
know, everyone's working true of a normal episode.
But with a good reason this time.
Yeah, I mean, we're supposed to like him normally.
And yeah, I've got to say, I think this might be my favourite of
all the enterprises we've watched so far.
And I think it might be my favourite Mirror Universe episode we've
done an untitled Star Trek project so far as well.
It might be as well.
So, yeah, yeah.
This is Enterprise basically saying, or Manikoto saying, let's
just tick off every box we want to, because the rules are off.
We can have the gall.
We can have the folions, we can have original series sets, you
know, all those things that he probably would have liked to have
seen in Enterprise, since series one.
And now we're doing it.
And boy, shoving it all in this two-parter. a riot.
Well, I mean, I've watched a fair amount of series 4, but not all
of it, and I've enjoyed everything.
I think it's really sort of well told, um, the episodes are fun
and eventful, interesting things happen.
I think, like I think this is pretty dumb, but I really, really
enjoyed it.
There are things about it that I I still have some reservations
about it.
But it's the sheer audacity of the fan wank that's on display that
I just think is so amazingly great.
And he's clearly gone, all right, the Tholian Webb and Mirror
Mirror.
I will have both of those, somehow he weaves them together.
So he makes the Tholian web into a kind of sequel to Mirror, Mirror
without anything really in the original episode, kind of
suggesting that.
And then he creates a sequel to those.
And I think that's magnificent.
And it just has the sort of usual thing.
There's reversals and exciting things.
And of course, something, I think, and we're going to talk to you
about this during the course of the episode.
Something that I think Deep Space 9 loses is the original Mirror
Mirror idea, which is our crew, but they all have the knife one
another to survive and and kind of progress up the hierarchy.
And that's the shocking thing about Mirror, Mirror, is that it's
the enterprise, but it's that.
And so this really leans into the original conception of the
mirror universe in mirror, mirror.
I'm actually kind of pleased this is the only chance because I
read on memory alpha.
Had series 5 come along, they would definitely, because the
reception to this was huge.
There definitely would have been another Mirror Universe
enterprise episode.
And I always feel like it's like the law of diminishing returns a
lot of the time.
And like you said, with DS9, it started off as this amazing
holding up the mirror to our regular characters and continuation
of Mirror, Mirror.
And by the end of this on, in series 7, you know, going to the
mirror universe just meant that you were a cartoon villain and
gay.
And that was it.
You're like, that was as lazy as it got by the end there.
Whereas this is, is still sort of comic book fun, but it, I think
it does have something to say in a few pertinent scenes, which I
appreciated because, I mean, I would have gone along with this if
it was just knives coming out and foley and webs popping up in
space and things like this.
But actually, to have the thread of Tapal realising how things are
different in the other universe and inciting her own rebellion
that really boosted up that 2nd part and made me really pay
attention.
But just visually.
This was an excitement to my eyeballs in a way that enterprise so
rarely is.
And I did send you a message during part one going, oh, God, I
thought this was all TOS says, and I'm just stuck on these boring
enterprise sets as usual.
And then when that blew up, I literally jumped out the chair and
went, yes.
And twice is gone and we're on the Defiant for episode two.
That's not DS9 is defiant by the way.
Yeah, like, and the whole 2nd episode, visually, they brought in
director of photography to do that one.
And it just looks amazingly good, I thought.
Yeah, I feel we're going to have so much fun watching this.
And I would never, ever get to say that about enterprise ever
again.
So there's one other thing that I want to say, we did an episode a
while ago of Discovery Series one called Vaulting Ambition.
And we thought that was pretty boring.
Yeah, that was like the 2nd last episode of their Mirror Universe
Arc, which I think is generally good.
To be fair, there are some good episodes.
There's like 4 episodes, isn't there, in series one?
A couple of them are pretty.
We just chose the most boring one.
We chose the worst one.
I think it may be the worst episode of season one.
The placeholder mirror episode, that one, isn't it?
Because I think that's really great.
But even in vaulting ambition, that episode, Giorgio is referred
to by her full title, which is her most Imperial Majesty, Mother
of the Fatherland, Overlord of Vulcan, Dominus of Kronos, Regina
Andor, Philippa Giorgio, Augustus Yaponius Centaurius.
And Japonius is Japanese.
She gets that title from her predecessor, Koshisata.
And it's a deliberate reference to it.
And she says, so the crew of discovery, know about the Defiant
going into the mirror universe, and they want to retrieve it in
order to find out a way out of the mirror universe through
interphase space.
And so that's a reference to this episode.
It's not really a reference to the Tholian web because it's this
episode that establishes that the defiant ends up in the mirror
universe, and she actually says, Giorgio says that she's read the
files on the Defiant, and they're full of dangerous ideas like
equality and freedom and cooperation.
Yes.
And she says, we won't let you infect us again, because the reason
that there's no, there's no interaction with our regular crew.
Like our crew don't find out about the mirror universe in this
episode because they're not in.
I want to talk about that in a second, but yeah.
Yeah.
But, but Giorgio knows about the Mirror Universe before the people
on Enterprising Mirror, Mirror, find out about it, she knows about
it because she's read the Defiance files.
And she refers to how the defiant gets here through interphasic
space, which resulted in a temporal anomaly, which sent the
defiant back in time.
And so there's a really, really detailed reference to this 2
parter in vaulting ambition.
And so I don't think I realised that at the time because I hadn't
seen this.
And so it's absolutely Kurtzman doing what he does with Enterprise
which is, I think, taking an unloved and kind of unsuccessful
series and giving it love and properly canonising it in a way that
I think is really generous and wonderful.
Yeah, I think it's awesome.
It's so good, but it's still there and it's still Star Trek and
we're still going to acknowledge it. basically what you say about
it every time we watch one of these.
That's right.
What I think is wonderful about it is the Tholian web, mirror
mirror, vaulting ambition, all kind of centre around this 2
parter.
And I think that's wonderful.
I think that's really, really top quality fan wank of a kind that
Manny Koto is, you know, fan wank guy, but, you know, he's
excelled himself, I think, with this 2 parter.
You're sorry to sound dangerously like one of those Star Trek fans
that write spinoff books now, you know?
loves all like your own personal folio and web of continuity
threading through the series.
I mean, you know me.
I think that's wonderful and I think it is great that they are
endorsing enterprise in a sort of backhand in kind of a way.
But for me, less the continuity, more is this entertaining.
Yes.
This is really entertaining on its own.
That would have been a flaw if it hadn't been entertaining on its
own terms because it's fun.
Well, I mean, there was a chance.
This is still enterprise, you know.
Yeah, very good chance.
But because it's fun and because it relies on our memories of 2
good original series episodes, you know, like I just think it
works really well.
There's not many times when you and I could talk about an
enterprise episode and a Kurzman era episode and say the
enterprise episode is more entertaining.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I certainly think that, you know, this has nothing to say
about the mirror universe and the only thing that's interesting is
when Tapol reads the defiance files in part 2 and it inspires a
rebellion.
Um, you know, series one of discovery uses the mirror, a universe
as a kind of...
MAGA, parallel universe version of the uh, Trump Federation.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so it's commenting on contemporary politics in a way that this
doesn't do.
And it has some great images.
And even vaulting ambition ends with, you know, Gabriel Lorca
stomping that guy in the head and killing him.
Like it's pretty amazing.
But yeah, this is just so far.
Do you know what the inspiration was to do a Mirror Universe
episode was originally?
No.
It was because they wanted to bring William Shatner into
Enterprise.
I'm sorry, we're like, oh, how could we possibly do this?
Oh, let's do a mirror universe episode and we'll somehow, you know
all rules are off and he can be in this.
That all fell through, but they still wanted to do it, right?
And then Manikoto says...
Let's not do the usual mirror universe thing then of having our
characters going into the mirror universe episode and judging
everything that's going on because then we can avoid and how does
he say it?
What was great about our approach where people aren't crossing
over to the universe is, we can avoid any of those moralising
speeches where Archer or somebody waves their finger and leches
these bad people about, well, you really ought to try this other
way.
And instead, instead, you just hang out with these dreadful people
doing awful things.
And Kel Suprees, that's a lot more fun to watch than our usual
boar against prize characters.
I mean, um, Hoshi Sato in this 2 parter.
If she was like this all the time, I'd be all over that
character.
And they do it, they do prove in Kursman Trek, you'd think it
would be an impossibility for a mirror universe character, like
how they're characterised to work in the prime universe.
They made it work.
Yeah, twice.
They've Gabriel Walker and then they have Philippa Jordan.
There's absolutely a possibility that, you know, our regular
enterprise characters, maybe not, you know, trying to kiss and
knife each other and poison each other all the time and things
like that.
I don't know, just have getting their fucking hair down and having
some farm, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, it's so great.
Yeah.
Well, like, in a way, they do get to have our prime universe
judging the mirror universe because of the defiant files and the
files about the federation that Tapole reads.
But otherwise, her reading or fall is far less damning.
Yes, exactly.
You know.
But can you imagine?
Scott Back, you're like, oh, you're terrible.
Although we do have Scott Bacular in a dual role in this in some
very odd sequences where suddenly our universe archer is there
like a forced ghost from Star Wars, saying to Mirror Universe
Archer, you know, there's a better way than this.
We still have a bit of that in here.
I think that's different though.
And when we get there, I'll talk about what I think's happening.
I just figured it was his conscience tickling a little, you know?
Not quite.
I don't think that's quite But I guess the whole idea too is to
just let the actors let their head down and have fun and that's
the other thing that gets to happen here.
Well, what I will say is this.
Yeah, usually I'll lead this till the end, but let's do it at the
start at this time.
The reception of this episode.
And bear in mind, the reception of Enterprise generally was
everyone wanted to pour it down the plug-hole, you know, and put
it, put it in a, been on fire.
One of the most popular instalments they ever did.
The New York Daily Time says the best hours of Enterprise yet.
At a Star Trek convention for the 50th, it was chosen as part of
the 10 best Star Trek episodes of all time, this two-parter.
Newsweek says it was the best episode of Enterprise there ever
was.
City Fantastique, said it was number 4 of the top 10 television
episodes of 2005.
Wired named this two-part instalment as one of the 12 all-time
best Star Trek episodes of all time.
Star Trek 101.
This is episode as one of the 10 essential episodes from
Enterprise.
So all of the critics at the time, we're watching this and
probably going, geez, Louis, we could have had this all along.
This is amazing. you know, her original series episode.
Branham Braga was highly impressed by the episode's teaser
sequence stating when I saw this two-parter, it was like, hmm, this
should be a whole season, and I'll be behind that totally.
Interesting.
Scott Bacula described the two-parter as a favourite episode of
his.
Now, interestingly, John Billingsley and Conor Trinier were not
fans of this 2 parter at all.
Billings that he called the episodes banal, and Trinier described
them as pandering.
Yes, that's what we want.
Pandaras, you know. that's so far.
But we'll save the last word before we go into Linda Park. how she
said to herself, finally being given something fun to do.
She says, I think it's well known that these are my favourite
episodes of all time.
Brilliant.
So I think the consensus is this is great.
Billingsley likes being a bit controversial.
Trinier, maybe it's because he didn't have such a big role and he
usually gets a bigger role in enterprise.
Well, I think it's because he didn't get to be quite as pretty as
he normally is, is probably the thing.
You didn't really get to fuck no one either.
Bacular was having all the fun there, wasn't he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for worlds.
Well, what do you think?
I think we go in Let's do it.
Let's do it.
All right.
I will count us in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
You know what's sad, Nathan. is we won't get to sing the song.
I know, I know.
We'll talk about that.
Oh my god.
This opening is so brilliant.
So what do you think they're doing?
Like, I think, like, like, what is this bit four?
And the one thing that I try...
Yes, I like that idea.
I don't think it can really be that, but yes, it's like this is
where it diverged.
And so the mirror universe becomes just a sort of quantum parallel
universe where things went another way.
So is this the actual footage from 1st contact?
Some of it, and it's the same actor, I think, isn't it?
Attention to detail is great because I couldn't really see where
they had entered 2 movies.
Yeah, like wild show. where they had.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That shot there is from 1st contact, I think.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so you've got Cromwell back.
You know, who doesn't seem to be credited?
No, this is from 1st contact because you only see the gun and not
his face.
So I think they just edited it really, really well.
It's a shame.
But come on, if you're going to start this, we're going to, what a
fun way of doing it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. one of the most celebrating scenes in Star
Trek.
And then doing the music...
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so either it's just subverting it, but I do love the idea
that this is where the universe is diverge.
They even do the comedy bit where he's trying to do the voice.
But it's much more ominous.
Yeah.
And now come, yeah.
Yeah, so you look, our comes to go.
You don't see his face.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is very political right now.
Look, I'm all writing, running in, to say, look, get whatever you
can grab.
So, and so what we get here, because, you know, Star Trek
Enterprise, the opening titles tell the story of the various white
men that are responsible for promonialism and then the
federation.
This is great.
Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.
Like, there's a nine.
Biplane, a German biplane.
And... the evil symbol of the, what they're called?
the Terran the Terran Empire.
Look, explosions, atom bombs going off.
This is much more exciting than enterprise normally is.
It's much cheaper than it is.
Who cares about that?
fair enough.
It's only for 2 episodes.
Excuse me, I think the general consensus is people prefer this
theme tune.
Oh, yeah, they're crazy.
And that is so shit.
CGI man on the moon.
That is so bad.
See, I thought it was going to end here with Enterprise bombing
the planet and then it goes into more.
And the cause comes in.
There's the scenes from the building.
That's dragon's teeth. final episode from the next episode.
That's from Dragon's teeth in Voyager.
Oh, yeah, that's I can voyage shots.
I think the last bit there with all the ships coming in, that's
from Sirius 3 of Enterprise during the Zindi Arc, you know, one of
their space powers.
No, but come on.
As 2 ways to start this, one the 1st contact and then changing the
title sequence, you're straight away on a footing of like, this is
going to be great.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It is pretty good. isn't it?
And I love how the enterprise looks.
Okay, so we get a tellrite.
Oh, you're right.
I do look terrible.
Don't they?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. never work.
I think that Janken Polk is the only one that doesn't look utterly
terrible.
So this is Malcolm Reed inventing the pain booths and the pain
booths are the big thing, aren't they?
They're kind of the most signature thing in mirror, mirror.
So they're from Mirror, Mirror.
That absolutely says the mirror universe.
So there's probably tons of this, you know, in this that we didn't
where they're sort of saying our stuff for mirror, mirror.
That one is quite obvious.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It is great.
You get lots of scenes of Conor Trinier later on, arriving about
in agony.
It's quite fun to watch.
But, you know, you have, like, it's Reed invented it, which I
think is pretty great.
He doesn't quite know why he's torturing him.
He's so horrible, he goes, I suspect he was late for his shift or
something.
Apparently, Mike Sussman, the writer of this, thought he was only
writing a single episode and they were like, no, this is so
great.
We're gonna have to make it a 2 barter.
And he was a bit overwhelmed.
Apparently he had to have like the whole Christmas break away and
he wrote it sort of over a couple of weeks.
He did a great job though, I think.
It is really good.
And having Forrest as well.
So we have Forest and then, you know, like in the next episode we
have Soval, uh, and we have uh, an admiral who only gets mentioned
by name and is never seen, except in the very universe.
All far less tedious than they normally are as well.
I thought, you know, whilst they're trying to incite rebellions
and things.
Well, I think James L. Conway directs this episode and he hasn't
been around for some time.
I think he did the very 1st Enterprise episode and then didn't
direct Star Trek until this point after that.
And they pulled him in because they knew this was going to be
quite effects heavy and quite a big deal.
He directed like some of the DS9 big hitters like Way, the Warrior
and Shattered Mirror, and things like that.
So he's quite a big deal getting him back.
And I do think you can feel a lift in the production with this and
with the 2nd part.
Yeah.
So he's Hashi, who just looks beautiful.
Like, she's sort of drunk.
Sexy in this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
She'd be great.
Not to put too far apart a minute.
She'll fuck anyone to get to power.
She's all like that.
All forests right now as it works.
Shortly, she'll be all over Archer, and then by the end of it
she's grabbing Mayweather.
She's snogging in.
Yeah, well, that's finally the one that she thinks is hot.
Do you know what I mean?
Well, no, she's wrong by then.
She's right.
Well, she's right.
But she's won by then.
She's going to be emperor so she can just pick someone pretty
rather than someone powerful.
What's lovely about her story?
is unlike Norm Werns Prize, which signposts everything in every
scene all the time and there are very few surprises.
Her thread throughout this.
It's quite delicately done.
So at the end, when she takes power.
The 1st time I watched it, I didn't see it coming.
No.
Do you know, one thing that I like is that little bit of dialogue
too, where she talks about going back to Brazil to resume her
teaching?
You know, like, like, as if she had a normal life, there's
something like there's something normal in the in the mirror
universe, because this is the earliest that we've seen of the
mirror universe, isn't it?
Yes, I don't know.
I mean, if the moon landing was the Terran Empire.
Is that what we're supposed to see, the stupid CG moon landing at
the end of the thing?
Yeah, anyway, doesn't matter.
That was the only part of the title circus where I burst out
laughing.
So bad, isn't it?
They just can't do people.
They have a good stab at the corn in this, but just put a person
on there.
You know what I mean?
Just build a crappy moon set.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, here he is.
Captain Archer himself.
Oh, no, he's not a caption, is he?
He's a commander?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, I mean, the great thing about it is that he's just a massive
fucking loser.
Oh, I mean, he usually is as well, remember?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But he's like, he's an angry loser.
And then in episode two, he discovers that there is a much better
archer who is famous and beloved and you know, is going to be
remembered forever.
So pissed about that.
He wants all of those files destroyed, doesn't he?
I don't want any record, but there's a better V out there.
Oh, I love Mayweather with his earring.
Doesn't he look hot?
Yeah, although the wig is not doing in many favours.
Now this, I think this is awful, right?
Can I ask you about this?
Because I kind of think she looks quite sexy.
Say it with very uniform middle cutaway.
Yeah.
So, so we do see, do we see Ahura in Mirror, Mirror, and she has a
sexy version of the, um, Star Trek, you know, of the, of the
Starfleet thing, but yes.
But it's camp and sexy, whereas this is just the, you know, the
boring fucking overalls, but we'll just cut the middle out of
them.
Like it's not camp and it's like designed by a straight guy.
Oh, this fucking, um, so Billingsley is playing evil flocks and we
keep seeing flocks just chopping up animals every time you go back
to him.
He has an animal in my show.
And they actually, they go to the legs of all the guts and all of
that, you know, someone's made that prop.
You got to remember, these are the same prop people that put that
fake dog in liquid in a night in Sick Bay, you know?
I will say one thing about these uniforms, yeah, is they're not
designed to appeal to you and me.
And I would imagine if a man is watching this.
I imagine if they would enjoy this a lot.
Yeah, but I think it's a bit gross.
Yes, but then straight men are.
No, like it should have been camp and fun and revealing, like
absolutely do the revealing outfit.
Certainly what Hoshi is wearing in that 1st thing, like, like
there's something sexist and demeany about the plot about how she
has to fuck her way up to power, but we'll go for it because
that's kind of the, you know, the genre or whatever.
I mean, you know when, you know, when men, you know, sort of, I've
seen, you know, gay men proudly wearing tops where it just sort of
comes up to just below their chest, you know.
Sure.
And I think that's really sexy.
I think it looks lovely.
No, but I just think the actual outfit itself is just the overalls
with the middle cut out of it.
It's so low effort.
Like it's so much in the mind of a straight man, though.
And, you know, you can sort of spangly shit on it and stuff.
Like, make it fun.
Like, you want to make it. make it gay.
You want to make it cow?
I want to make it.
Yeah, but it's not funny, is it?
It's a universe.
It's supposed to be sexy.
No, the origin of the mirror universe, I think, is a genre busting
thing.
Like, I think it is what if Star Trek, instead of being lots of
people in uniforms and being terribly Siri and stuff, was lurid
terribly serious and stuff, was lurid, ridiculous space opera
where everyone was wearing, you know, like giant boots and...
That's why I wish Star Trek was all the time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
And that's what they do in Mirror, Mirror.
Like there's something very camp about it.
That is not can.
They do take the baton in DS9 as well because, you know, everybody
is hamming it up.
Paul Garak, with his lines like, post you, you know, everyone's
very camp.
Look at what Philippa wears in the mirror universe as emperor.
Ridiculous, isn't it?
That's fabulous.
Enormous gold lame gown.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, it needs to be more fun and that is not fun, I think.
But the thing that we have identified in this show before is they
are aiming for that heterosexual audience.
And I think this is part of that as well.
It's the same designers that are saying, yeah, great.
Let's have them in their underwear doing that decontamination
gel.
Yeah, yeah.
I kind of get it.
I don't really like it.
I don't like how exploitive it is.
But I think for people that aren't you and me. would be very
appealing.
Yeah, yeah, I don't care about them, though.
Like it needs to be camp.
Anyone straight listening to this, all right?
You're not welcome here.
No, that's not true.
We love you all.
Just a bit less.
Oh, sorry, don't move.
What's going on now?
Yeah, so...
Oh, look, look at the guns on the wall.
Yeah, yeah, he's got guns in the background.
No, later on, he's or was it, is that how this scene opened?
It is.
Oh, no, it's closing.
There you go. holding the gun now, alert.
He's putting it on.
That's the gun that Cromwell used to shoot that Zefron Cochran
used to shoot the Vulcan.
When Picard had a stab at doing. alternative universe.
They were like, right, you want guns on the wall?
No, we're going to display the heads of the people that are being
killed in the mirror universe.
Oh, it's so great. love that episode.
No, that's an alternative 24th century.
Can you believe this as an actual quote on memory alpha where they
went, well, we don't usually give Mayweather too much to do.
So we'll write him up in this episode and make him Scott Bakula's
bodyguard.
I'm like, so you know you're not getting...
You know you're just neglecting this attractive man.
What about both?
Think how many episodes we've done where she has literally had a
line or a reaction shot or something.
Remember, these are the voyages where they had one scene with the
riker on the holodeck and that was it.
And look, I'm the universe.
Porthos is a pit bull.
I also prefer this stalk, you know.
Imagine that pit bull suspended in liquid in fluxes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You wouldn't tolerate it terrible.
No, I'm not sort of listening.
I've got the subtitles on.
All I'm seeing is what's the actress's name who plays Sato?
Linda Parks, her body language.
Everything, her body language is sexualised.
So when she walks towards him like that, she literally looks like
she's about to bang bang him.
Yeah, yeah, but she doesn't seem kind of downtrodden.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, I don't know.
I think that when the Mirror Universe comes back, they drop the
women fucking their way to the top idea and I think they're right
to do that.
And I think it's probably in 2005, it's probably they should not
really be doing it, to be honest, I think it's bad.
I mean, the intendant was highly sexualised, but she's already out
the top when we 1st meet. right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
We don't need to find out how she got there.
No.
And she's just fucking away to the top.
And to Paul accuses her of that, remember?
Like, tells her off.
I think Linda Park has a wonderful stab, but I think this
character in this.
I think that's, um, uh, oh, God, what's her name, cousin?
Cousin Michelle.
Michelle Yeoh.
I can remember her name.
She is outstanding as Giorgio. but nobody will ever quite top than
our visitor as the attendant intendant.
She is so outrageously over the top.
Yeah, so I think I said to you on the chat that I think it lets
offend everyone, that putting a bisexual woman on TV is the
easiest sort of queer representation that you can do, which is why
Deep Space 9 does it.
It's the only queer rep that the show does in the 90s at all.
And, you know, they don't make any of the men say in the merry
universe.
O'Brien and Bashir in series 7.
Like where they're almost saying it, but no.
But yes, I know what you're saying.
Yeah, it's a bromance and that's very sweet.
But, you know, like, sexualising Kira, and, you know, just making
a beautiful woman bisexual and stuff and just sort of gesturing at
it a little bit, like having 2 women kiss on tally, isn't that
confronting, I think.
I think they do a reasonable snipe with Darks in DS 9.
They have clearly attracted to women.
Well, in one episode in between, but Vanessa Williams, I'll keep
mentioning it. that pottery scene.
She's having a wonderful time with her arms around Vanessa
Williams.
That's awesome But I do think it is our problem. that the only
truly acceptable way in this iteration of Star Trek.
You know, Burman era is really going to an alternative universe
where being gay is okay.
Well, yeah.
Well, it's a lazy shorthand, isn't it?
It a lazy shorthand for this is how people are different.
Yeah.
Yeah, but also because it's camp.
Do you know what I mean?
That's fun.
And the big thing that Deep Space 9 does, with the mirror universe
it doesn't really use it to comment on politics, it doesn't really
do it much beyond the 1st one or 2 to kind of refer to Star Trek.
Because, you know, Deep Say sign does care about the original
series and does reference it, doesn't it?
in a way that, yeah.
It's saying that if they had wanted to have, you know, like Tripp
and Mayweather asset in this episode, I would not have objected at
all.
But they would never have done it.
No, I know it's a shame. another dead animal. you know, he's
carving up another animal.
But that is strange because they don't do it at all in this two
parture, do they?
They don't do that.
The bisexual thing.
No, no.
Which is odd because, you know, when we go across to Kurtzman. they
are doing it.
Giorgio's quite happy too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Whatever comes her way, you know, she'll have fun with it
somehow.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think that's in the season finale where she has, she gets to, um
Orion lap dancers or whatever.
All right.
So here we have Vitholian.
And and as research, to prepare for this just before we record
Nathan refuse to tell me anything about his research.
Just so it could tell me that exciting.
But I did watch Thetholian Web.
Oh, did they look like that sort of weird crystal people?
So all you get to see is kind of from the nose up, it's very
static, and there is a kind of like flames background thing, but
it's very kind of, there's a lot of effects over it, and it talks
because they've got a universal translator, I guess, at this
point.
So it's got a name and it talks.
Um, and, but you only see sort of the top of its head.
It doesn't move.
It's sort of spooky looking, but it had been decided, I think, that
that was heat.
And so sort of in, so, you know, sort of extra canonically the
idea is that they lived in very hot temperatures and here they
live, you know, 200 degrees hotter than us or something like
that.
What I love about that, because I don't think that's great, CGI.
I think that does look pretty terrible.
But it is weird and different.
And I like that.
You know?
Yeah, it's not just someone slavered in latex. you know, with an
extra nostril or something.
It does look different.
And the Tholians did look different.
Do you know what I mean?
And they did look spooky.
And I think that this is a pretty good thing bringing them back
and getting them to look weird getting them to like a video
effect.
Yeah, Nathan.
I think the eyes are quite cool.
The eyes are original.
The sort of thing that you'd see in the 1st series of Next
Generation, you know, before they learned to be embarrassed by
that sort of thing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think it's pretty good.
And, um, Fox is there, ready to tear it apart. as soon as you
can.
It's so interesting, you know, it's so interesting that Andrew
Robinson and John Billingsley, who are 2 of their strongest actors
respectively, of their 2 shows, both hated doing the Mirror
Universe episodes.
Oh, did they?
Yeah, but it might be just because those are doing the actors that
get good work in the prime universe, you know?
They get some decent material normally.
So, because Billingsley is not being fun.
Like, that's the thing that you don't get, like, I think...
He's interesting in the 2nd episode when she's trying to show him
how things could be and then when he makes his choices.
But is it because he's trying to play, you know, like he's the fun
character on Enterprise normally.
And so even though he could be camping it up, he just decides to
know I'm kind of Dr. Mangela and I'm not going to be any fun at
all.
I do still think the carving up animals thing is pretty funny
though.
I like watching him, you know, scrabbling about with Conor Trinier
and the engineering section in episode 2 when he's trying to, you
know, sabotage the ship.
I think it's really fun But yeah, maybe you're right.
And also, you know, Garak's really fun normally.
And in the mirror universe episodes, he's very one note, you know
he's just a boy that goes around screaming at people and desperate
to have sex with the intendant and it's not going to happen.
And that's just not very fun to play.
Ooh, now look at this.
I love this because in our universe, obviously, Tripping, I've had
a relationship.
Yeah, and they're very close.
They managed to make that with their body language and how they
play that scene really uncomfortable in a way that normally we
watch them together and it's perfectly fine.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, so this is the thing.
So there's an explosion.
So, what, they're trying to attach the cloak.
They're trying to attach a cloaking device.
It was Conor Trenier that came up with the explanation as to why
his face is all scarred like that, with the radiation exposure
because it's the same radiation that scars Captain Pike in the
original series.
Yes, I thought it was probably a reference to Captain Pike just
from the look of the scarring.
Uh, but he also says that there's radiation here and I guess
because it's the Terran Empire and they don't give a shit about
kind of occupational health and safety that it's not properly
shielded and he says something like, you know, like every uh, so
often, you know, like every decade you work on these things, you
lose a year of your life or something like that.
It's very sad. that pretty man and some mount is going to become
scarred like that, isn't it?
And it turns out okay in the end.
I hope so.
Yeah, yeah.
No, I mean, it does.
We've seen it.
Usually I find this admiral character so dull.
It's great, yeah, yeah.
Well, doesn't he get killed next episode or, you know, the episode
after this?
He gets killed in the attack on the Vulcan embassy or something?
They knew they were going.
That was in Keshara.
It was earlier.
Wasn't it?
Oh, so they brought him back.
Is he dead at this point?
Yeah I think he is.
Yeah, you're right.
It's the bombing of the Vulcan embassy, isn't it?
Yeah.
So he's dead.
And because that's the other reason.
In Discovery, at the end of series one, because Discovery
encounters the Mirror Universe about 10 years before, the
Enterprise doesn't, because no one's heard of it in Mirror, Mirror
they're sworn to secrecy, they're not allowed to say anything
about it.
It's classified because dead people from our world are still alive
like Philippa, are still alive in the mirror universe and we're at
war with the Klingons, right?
DS9 tried to do that and they chose the dullest character of all
time barrile to bring back... my god.
We're in the universe where Barile's still alive.
But that is the all-time clangour of the alternative universe
episodes because they bring 2 alternative universe characters into
our universe.
We don't want to hang out in our universe.
That's where we normally are, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, look, the knives are out.
He's going to murder Admiral Forrest or does that?
Do you know what?
This was the point where I remember messaging you and I was like
okay, this is fun and they're all having fun playing evil versions
of their characters, but we are still stuck on the same dull sets
that we're normally on.
And I remember the sort of TOS stance.
I'm thinking, well, where's did I did I imagine all of that?
And then when the Defiant shows up in that asteroid film or
whatever it is, I was like, yes, here we go.
It's so great, isn't it?
Because obviously the set's on the defiant because we are on the
defiant in the Tholian web at the very beginning before it
vanishes into interphasic space.
Is that what it's called, Nathan?
into phasic space.
Yes, they say it quite a lot in Matholic.
They do.
We've just thought, oh, this amazing new space.
Yes, yeah.
Into phasic.
And it's a money saving thing, isn't it?
Because we get to use the enterprise sets for the defiant.
But here they have to build and they build more.
Oh, look at...
I'm not sure what it says about me. but watching Malcolm Reed
torture trip like this and he's all sort of sweaty in the tube.
Yeah, he's going to disagree on television.
Well, he's a bit hideous though.
It is a bit unfortunate.
He is unfortunate looking.
Yeah, they build more of the enterprise, don't they, than they
ever have.
Like they obviously had built the original enterprise set for
relics in series 6 of Star Trek, the next generation.
Corridor and the Bridge and that for trials and tribulations. for
trials and tribulations.
But you build everything way more.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And apparently, because, I mean, I couldn't read it all, but the
laborious detail that they go into on memory alpha, talking to the
designers about every single detail that they wanted to get, like
this was a passion project.
Yeah.
But do you know what I mean?
Even additional fan wank beyond what we really mentioned before we
started watching.
It's such fan service.
You know what really shocks me right about Sato and Archer sort of
in bed like this, yeah?
And it's even more apparent in episode 2 when they have it off.
Is they're really sweaty and messed up in a way that Star Trek
never is.
People make love in Star Trek and their hair is perfect and they
have not one drop of sweat has broken from their brow.
This actually feels like that, you know, having a bit of rough and
tumble.
Yeah.
Archer's hair is really bad, isn't it?
It's so bad.
It's all feathered because it's so short, you know?
It's like how mine looks, but it's too short because it, yeah, it's
there's too much volume to it.
I can't explain it.
But he also looks kind of old and a bit pathetic, and he, like, you
know, he's doing that.
Dying, haven't they?
Like a slightly darker hue to his hair as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know what it reminds me of?
It reminds me of a previously successful boy band member coming
back together with the boy band and trying to recapture his
youth.
It's that sort of look.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's actually kind of a relief to see, oh, massive
midrift shop on.
Well, she's got a Pierce Navel.
It pierced.
Blow those bastards.
When you hear her being interviewed.
She's so shy Given, given some of the performances she gives.
Yeah.
Oh, here we go.
Action at last.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
This is what you want from every Mirror Universe episode.
Exactly.
They're supposed to be stabbing one another, for God's sake.
Archer looks like he's just gone down the high street and bought
that t-shirt.
Do you see him?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I quite like it.
It's tied.
He's wearing a tie T-shirt that looks good on him.
Yeah, God, if they were doing this all the time, you know, double
crosses and things on enterprise.
This would be a great fun show to watch.
Do you think that the set of the bridge set is more colourful than
normal?
I mean, it's not much more colourful than normal.
But I feel there's a bit more red in there than usual.
Yeah, and displays of stuff and stuff are a little bit more
interesting.
They know we're about to go to this amazingly colourful set.
Yeah, maybe, maybe.
I like the symbol on the door there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's very subtle, isn't it?
A huge knife going through the earth.
Going through the earth.
Oh, look at Archer at the door.
I really like how this works.
Like, again, he's clever at double crossing because he's from a
world that operates on those terms.
So he manages to make himself indispensable.
Is he wearing jaw girls?
Has he just come from his trailer?
Is it time for my shot?
Those clothes are so casual.
I do like, I love all of the, like, who can be trusted?
It's going to be murdered next all well. love all of that.
All of that's really fun.
This is how I imagine if we were going to have our sort of Klingon
series, we'd spend every episode, you know.
Yeah.
Oh, now I'm talking to you now.
Yes, good.
Excellent. 10 hours in the booth, says Dr. Flux.
Impressive.
Look at him.
It's so great.
He's a twisted also, isn't he?
Don't you float?
Yeah.
Maybe he's right to not like not chew the scenery to kind of just
rein it in a little bit.
Maybe that's the right decision.
Much like every episode of Event Prize.
Whenever he's on the screen in this super art up, my eyes go to
him straight away.
Oh no, he's great.
He has a weird way of owning every scene, even when he's not the
focus at all.
So Fleet Admiral Gardner does get a mention, I think, in other
episodes, I might have said this before, but he doesn't actually
appear in any episode other than, I think, next week.
You betrayed me.
Don't think for one moment I'm going to forget that.
And down he goes.
Yeah, you know, it's indispensable.
Like, you know, the phonia webs come in, the defiance come in, the
gaunts come in.
We do need it.
We couldn't have had 2 episodes of justice.
No, no, absolutely not.
I'm starting to kind of...
Yeah.
Well, I think we both are.
Yeah, it was at this point of the episode where I was going, come
on now. get things moving.
But I think if you just squeeze all of that, the corn, the folians
the defiant into one episode, it would have just gone by a bit too
fast.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, what this, see, that image there, so that
description of interphasic space, that is based on a graphic
that's shown to the crew in the Tholian web, where they're
explaining where Kirk has gone, because the original thing is
Kirk's on the defiant, it disappears into interphasic space and
they think he's gone with it and they can't recover him.
And so that image there with those those lines, you know, like
creating a hole in space, that's actually from the folian ware.
Season is the folium web.
Season three.
It's three.
Is it good?
It's a good episode.
Yeah, yeah.
There's one or 2 unfortunate moments and it has some sexist
moments like this does.
But on the whole, it's pretty strong.
Freiburger could get it raw then.
Well, yeah, ish.
I mean, there are good episodes in series three.
They not all terrible.
We watch one, haven't we?
Spectra in the G. Spector of the Garden. great.
We've gone nowhere near than the deer yet though.
No.
And we did Spock's brain, which is somewhere near the Nadir, I
think, probably.
But, and certainly, I did have a little moment when I saw the
closing credits and the, like, the crap joke at the end and Kirk
smiling and then, uh, you know, produced by Freddie Freiberger
appears on the bottom of the screen, which is always upsetting to
see.
Imagine if you like just switched on now. like, oh, shit
enterprise is on.
I've missed a start.
Oh, well.
And it's them around the tactical table there, but they've all got
crazy hair and scars all over their faces.
Do you think people would realise straight away that this is
alternative universe or just go, what happened?
I was only gone half an hour.
No, no.
Anyway, Star Trek would know, I think.
And, you know, to Paul's makeup.
To be fun, this is still like, at this point, it's still within
the realms of a regular Star Trek episode, right?
Like we've done a bit of double crossing, but we've been on the
ship, we're investigating something.
Yeah, I think, you know, like it is the double crossing.
It's the, like, removing the captain and putting him in the brig
and then taking over and, you know, torturing people and stuff
like they've only got the one booth, but I, yeah, she does have a
pierce navel.
There was a very strange line, wasn't there, about the 2 of them
uh, to po and trip, him sort of saying how many times they've done
it before.
Yeah, he says I had a really good time or something like that.
Oh, here we go.
Yeah, here's a flashback look.
No, so that sort of flashback to their original thing.
That's a flashback to earlier during the time of the episode where
she, um, mind melded with him, uh, said she was gonna fuck him and
then got him to sabotage the thing.
So he he sabotages the thing and then she wipes his memory.
I thought her performance, Jolene Blaylocks was the closest to
what she normally plays.
Yeah, but remember the Spock, you know, we see Mirror Universe
Spock in Mirror, Mirror, and he is the same.
Because he's a Vulcan, you know?
So I think that's fair enough.
I don't know.
I think Linda Park's having all the fun though.
Yeah, she's so great.
I think that's why I prefer the 2nd episode.
She gets a lot to do with that 2nd episode.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and just, and I'll just keep saying it.
It's just some nicer looking sets.
It's... eyeballs.
I mean, look, they're turning the lights down here on the
enterprise set.
Can you really tell the difference?
I can't.
No, no, it's so miserable.
All right?
They're cloaking.
Woo, that looks really cool.
That was awesome.
Okay, we've reached the coordinates.
I think this is really going to start picking up now.
Yeah, something's gonna happen.
Yeah, because we're gonna come across the defiant now, aren't we?
Mhm.
Yeah.
That's not a bad...
Oh, no.
Yeah, I think that looks pretty good.
The gas giant in the system that we heard about.
Magnify the moon to the far right.
There's something there.
OMG.
Yep.
And there it is.
He's found it.
The defiant.
Hooray.
So what is that?
What is that?
Where is that more?
The docking thing.
Like, it's in the moon.
They've dug a big hole in the moon and...
Yeah, look, it's great.
But those little shit.
This is what they can do with CGI.
The little ships running around.
The gridding everywhere.
They can do that detail.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The little ships aren't taken directly from Natholeon Web.
That's what the ships look like in the Natholeon web too.
Oh, that's a really nice graphic on the wall there.
That sort of colourful graphic.
Yeah, it's cute.
I think the graphics are more colourful here.
We've detected no lie signs, but more visually arresting sets. lets
go.
Yeah.
Yeah let's go.
And so they're suggesting that the crew is executed, but of course
when the crew of the Enterprise go on board the Defiant, they
learn that the crew have all killed one another and everyone on
board is dead.
And that's what Giorgio says later.
So she says the defiant crossed through interphasic space and that
resulted in the temporal anomaly and had devastating cognitive
effects on every crew member.
They went insane.
They tore each other apart.
And it's actually one of the most upsetting things in Natholeon
Web is they're wandering through and there's just dead people
everywhere, including women with fabulous 60s hairstyles in those
minis comics.
Yeah, probably.
Yeah.
Come on now, we're heading over to the...
Not fight yet.
There it is It's like desperate for them together.
Yeah, Blaze.
Here we go.
Transportation effect was pretty great as well. great, doesn't
it?
It looks really good.
And it's really nice because you've got the enterprise sort of
space suits there.
The original series says.
I like it when it's sort of the 2 eras bleed together like that.
Oh my god, the spacesuits in the Thalian web are so bad.
Are they all really amazing?
They look like giant microphones on their heads.
Somebody tell me...
We want to see it.
Apparently, though, apparently the detail that they put into where
the bodies were and all of this on the Defiant, they watch that
episode again and again and again to get it right.
Yeah, because that line about the captain's neck being broken is
also what they say on, uh, on in the Tholian web.
They notice like the captains on the ground with someone's, you
know, hands around his neck and he's, say that's how we see him
here.
You know what he's got a look of, flocks, when he's evil like
that?
He reminds me a bit of when Bilbo Baggins goes bad in Lord of the
Rings, you know?
That sort of normally nice old man with a sadistic gleam in his
eye.
Look at that.
He's loving it, isn't he?
His contacts were amazing.
Yeah, he's doing really well, isn't he?
He's great.
Just so good. face is not moving at all, is he?
Will you kindly die, he says.
Yeah, yeah, he's doing really well.
There it goes.
Is it crystalline then?
It seems to shatter.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But all of that, like all you get to see is the head.
You learn nothing about the Tholians from the episode at all.
And they are much quicker at building a web than they are in the
Tholian web.
Did you watch it with the new CGI web or the old?
But it is pretty sympathetic to the old one.
Like, basically they don't attempt anything too fancy.
It is just 2 ships slowly going across the screen laying the web
behind them.
You see where these bodies are on the bridge.
Is that where they were in the phone?
You've only just watched this.
I have only just watched it. sort of in the middle of the bridge.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. near the near the thing, near the
captain's chair.
See, this is where I got really, Oh, look at this, the web.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so this is more impressive.
Absolutely.
Napoleon web.
This is what Star Trek should always be doing.
It should always be, because that's quite simple, right?
I mean, I know it's an expensive effect, but it's quite a simple
idea, but it just looks so striking.
It's unlike anything you're gonna see elsewhere.
Yeah, yeah.
So not at all what you get in the Star Trek.
Oh, really?
show series episode.
What does that look like?
Slightly less 3D. Much less 3D, uh, and it is, it's the ship's
just slowly crossing back and forth over a period of about 20
minutes, uh, laying the web.
But somewhat more tellingly.
That's also more visually interesting than what we normally see in
Enterprise as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And we've borrowed it. you know, 14 years later.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
We should be doing that sort of weird all the time.
Yeah exactly.
Yeah, now my interest is I'm captured again now.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Because we are on the set and something exciting is happening.
And all the lights got on in the dead bodies there.
Are the lights gone on the outside?
This is everything I ever wanted from Enterprise, you know, walking
around on the original series bridge.
Look how colourful it is.
It looks so great.
And interestingly, Manikoto says he was really worried because of
our, the usual level of sophistication in our sets, he says that
you know, people would think it's quite plain and dull that we go
over to the TOS sets, are you mad?
Are you serious, make it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Your sophisticated governmental gray can bog off.
But you know you've got those big flats that are sort of fairly
featureless in the original enterprise corridors and stuff
brilliantly.
That's why all the gels come in.
That's exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
There's a bit less gels, I think, probably in this, like the way
they should.
Walk around there quite a lot.
This was when I got really excited when they blew up Enterprise.
I was like, yes.
Yeah, yeah, and blew up Forrester again.
It is another one of those trek cliches, isn't it?
We'll only blow up, you know, enterprise G in course of an effect
when we're in a time loop and we can undo it.
When I need blow up DS9, when O'Brien's having visions of the
future, and we'll change what happens in the future.
I have watched them crash the Enterprise, do you remember though?
Well, and we watched them Destroy the Defiant as well.
Change your face of evil.
Look at all this now.
This is where all the money's gone.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The little, oh, look, some of them explode when they hit the web.
Do they have no, they don't like splash if they pick them up.
It's out of the enterprise sets now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's awesome.
They saved it for the end of the season to shoot this.
Just before they tore them down.
Do you think the view thing comes out of the, uh, comes out of the
thing using a mechanism that must have been more expensive than
the whole original set?
There we go. explode.
So, I mean, can you think of anything more cool than that than
that way?
Yeah, that is great. away on a starship and the ship.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Blowing to smithereens.
And then we're into the cliffhanger.
Yeah, yeah. awesome. that's so good Yeah, I did think that did get
a bit flabby in the middle.
Yeah, yeah.
I think it is the weaker of the 2 episodes, but I have to say that
I was pretty hooked by that point.
Um, but yeah, it perhaps is a little bit less interesting that I
remember from watching it uh, yesterday.
I only watched it yesterday as well.
I think effectively the 2nd the Defiant appears in that move.
This two-parter just runs right up until the very last scene.
And and I think this one, like I said, the 2nd one justifies its
existence as part of this show by having the, um, files on the, on
the defiant inspire a rebellion, I think.
I wonder if the if the original plan had gone ahead, and this had
just been one episode, we might have, they might have excised all
of that interesting subplot in part 2 about, um, to pull, trying
to pull together all the aliens and takeover.
We may have lost either the Foley and Webb or the gore, one part
of it or another.
So I think the extra time is good, but there is just 15 minutes
there where you're like, okay, where's this going?
Get moving Yeah, I mean, I don't think that we were ever in any
danger of getting less than 2 episodes, though, were we?
I mean, this is series 4 of Enterprise.
That's all they do is 2 and 3 parties.
Sussman says he was originally just put down to do one episode and
then they said they wanted to do two.
Yeah.
I think they made the right choice.
Yeah, I did too.
Because I do think, you know, we said that about Kashara, like we
only did Kashara because it's a three-parter, I think, and our
rule is, if it's an episode of a two-parter, we do both, but if
it's a three-parter, then we just do the one.
But we did watch it and we felt that it was a really just an
expansive story that having 3 episodes meant that they could reach
for something that changed the status quo and did something
interesting.
What's really sad?
I know we've talked about this before is obviously I know every
show.
It takes a little while to get going, right?
You learn what your cast can do.
You learn what your premise can do. you know, DS9 took a while.
TNG took a while. fair enough.
Man, oh, man, imagine if they got here in series 4, where we would
be in series 4.
Yeah, like in a way in year, you know, 15 or something of this
version of Star Trek, you know, this era of Star Trek.
They shouldn't really be failing.
Do you know what I mean?
Like they should really already know how to make it.
And because they've deliberately made some dumb creative decisions
because they think, you know, they're trying to sort of extricate
Star Trek from Star Trek.
I mean, they're not even calling it Star Trek at that point.
And those are dumb decisions that they have to walk back.
And then, you know, series 3 just goes off format altogether.
And so, you know, like, it's really only in four.
And it's not the 2 and 3 partners that I like about four.
It is just the sort of continual storytelling, which I just think
works really well.
I'm not the vibe before, though.
I just feel like there's a confidence in 4 that isn't there in the
rest of the series and that's come from Maniko, so I think.
The reason, we've talked about this.
The reason Enterprise technically failed is because 2 old hands
that they've been doing this show for over the franchise for over
a decade now.
They were just knackered and what else can you bring?
And yeah, they were making lots of stupid decisions.
Finally, someone comes in, a breath of fresh air who hasn't
showrun Star Trek ever before and said, right, let's go.
And then the blow comes.
Yeah, compared to shame.
The more I watch four, the more irritated I get because I think
there's huge potential in this show.
Do you know the thing that annoys me about it is that it's kind of
received fan wisdom that 4 is really great and it does sort of
things and it annoys me to agree with that?
But it is... a lot.
It is true.
I think it is true.
And even though they do like a stupid, you know, story about why
Klingons have ridges, which is such a dumb idea.
Do you know what I mean?
It's all just done with so much fun and so much love for the
original series.
And, you know, just...
Yeah, it is a confidence.
Like they just tell kind of fun stories.
Do you know what I mean?
without the chip on their shoulder about being Star Trek.
You know, I don't know.
I liked it.
Well, I like it too.
Should we go and watch an episode we both like?
I think we should watch episode two.
All right, so I'll count it in then.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
This might be my favourite episode of Enterprise that we've done
today.
I can't wait.
Really?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, no that's fair enough.
It's so nice to be able to say positive things about this show.
Yeah, yeah.
Because we usually so horrible.
Of course they got that midrift shot in the previously not
enterprise.
So upsetting.
Actually, look, it's very, it's very telling, you know, that the
larger percentage of the previously on is from the last 5
minutes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, when it's visually, really interesting and stuff.
Yeah, I love that way.
Yeah, it's great seeing a detailed version of the Little Tholian
ships as well. going through Enterprise being blown to shit.
Admiral Forrest, the explosion.
You'd think it couldn't get any better.
And then when they said the word gone, I was like, yes, I know.
And the Gordon is really just like, oh, we haven't done a Gordon.
Do you know what I mean?
We have to fit a Gordian somehow.
It's just like...
You could have just been a humanoid captain of...
That would have been so much more boring.
And and we've said it before. the gone in this, the CG gone in
this is the gone that's in Strange New World.
Yes.
The Gordian Strange Worlds don't look like the Gorn from Arena.
They look like the gone from this episode.
Neither Enterprise or Strange New Worlds was ever going to do that
cumbersome costume, were they?
Although it is pretty great. when they're talking about doing the
corn on memory alpha.
They said, can we do the costume and Manicoto was like, no.
No, will you do this as CGI or not?
Can we do it?
Oh, here we go into that.
The scary black credits with...
They did mention that that was deliberate, you know, to show just
how menacing everything's got Star Trek Enterprises no longer in
white.
It's black.
Yeah.
Don't even, all right?
Oh, here we go.
Yeah.
I really love this.
Yeah, I do too.
I think it's great.
It's always a fun thing. shows can almost never afford it.
The 2 title sequences show yours and mine approach to Star Trek
you know, you like it being optimistic.
You know, a view of humanity going out into space aspiring to
being better.
And there's me, the realist, watching the bombs falling.
Watching us, everyone's miserable.
People were destroying planets, the terrible CGI man on the moon.
What's making the flag ripple on the moon in that shot?
imagine if Bill Armstrom would look that bad.
It's not real dragon's teeth.
Is that what your best teeth?
Yeah.
And then obviously footage from other enterprise episodes, as they
are in stock cave set number four, sort of coming down.
It's number one.
And then, of course, the knife going straight through the earth.
Exactly.
So awesome.
Exciting.
Yes, look at this sad.
Enterprise is destroyed.
We're on safe territory now with the sets.
Yeah, on the defiant.
So good.
Alan, just watch the director of photography, Marvin Rush is
directing this now.
And as you and I have spoken about off Mike.
He's only done a couple of episodes.
He did the host for TNG.
The Thor for Voyager.
So they usually bring him in when there's some sort of visually
demanding things to do.
And he lights this episode brilliantly.
Yeah.
It's not quite lit like original trek, is it?
But that's okay, I think.
It's like you said, it's more than television.
It would be like if they, you know, where they did, um, when
they've done things in Kurtzman track, had they just made it look
like the original, they would do it, would they?
It's still modern television.
Well, this isn't now.
And in fact, when we go back to the Enterprise in series 2 of
Discovery, they make the decision to update it.
It's not just a copy like this or relics.
They decide to make it big and expansive and look modern and stuff
which is, of course, the right decision so many years later, I
think.
Not only did they steal the defiant, but they also fire off...
They do photon torpedoes to blow up the moon.
Yeah.
Yeah. true assholes.
Yeah, you can't help but really hate Archer.
Yeah, even more than usual.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Maybe, maybe the alternative Archer should have been a really nice
guy like Scott Bakula, you know, really fun.
That's the alternative version.
Yeah, that's right, charming and likeable.
He rides horses.
He plays classical music.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's right.
He doesn't know what water polo is.
He still has a dog, obviously.
Yeah.
That would have been a proper insult, though, wouldn't it?
I don't think they'd go that far.
No.
No, I quite like what they do here, where, where in a way, they
get a kind of look into a world that's much better than theirs.
You know, where you're not constantly living in fear of being
stabbed.
Uh, you know, and where he is a good person who's famous and
recognised.
And because he is such a fucking loser.
You know, we, he's still a commander.
We don't see him in charge of the ship, you know, like that, it's
surprising, isn't it?
That 1st captain's log in the 1st episode where it's being read by
someone else and you kind of go, where's where's Archer?
And I really, really love the moment when Tapol goes up to flocks
and says, this is how things are, like, we're equals.
And flux is appalled, isn't he?
And he sort of holds back for quite a bit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
As if, you know, he's been put in his place and he cannot imagine
that ever being the case where he's an E4?
that's right.
Yeah.
It's a lot more interesting than these alternative universe
episodes usually are, that's for sure.
Yeah, I think so.
I think so too.
But like, like, we've recently done an episode which we both
really, really hated about an alternative version of the crew
discovering that there is a better version of the crew elsewhere
and that was coarse oblivion.
Well, yeah, except that was an alternative version of the crew who
were better than our crew, like they were nearly home.
You know, they were doing a much better job.
But the normal crew, were they?
No, that's true.
That's true.
But what we watch there is lots of just kind of gross, ugly crap.
Do you know what I mean?
I just think that the reaction to learning is so much more
interesting here there.
It's like, well, we're just going to try and find them and accept
the inevitable eventually, you know.
Look at, look.
Oh, the uniform.
Oh, she.
Yes, that is such a great choice.
Holy crap, can we get ocean?
We have to go back to normal ball against Bryan's next week.
Oh, no, it's demons and terrible episodes.
That's true.
Yeah.
That is true.
It is quite telling though, isn't it, that, and they did know at
this point they were going out, that in the last 5 episodes, 3 of
the five.
Whatever you're going to say to me right now, pause it, are not in
our universe, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's like, well, let's do all the things we could do.
We'll do a TNG episode, disguise us an enterprise episode.
We'll do an alternative universe episode. and we'll do a two-part
wrap up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, and it's a it's a good call because it's mostly all very
entertaining apart from the last episode.
But, yeah.
Yeah.
I just can't imagine any of the other shows going out on this
though.
No.
Yeah.
Oh, look, there's our little dorky Hoshi there.
A little picture of her being a bit dorky rather than our
incredibly sexy and self-confident one, I hear.
Well, they sort of conceptualiser in the prime universe as a
character who is obviously very smart, good with languages, but
very nervous of the transporters and a bit sort of socially
distant from everybody.
And whilst those are things to explore.
One, they don't do it much.
Maybe once a year, maybe once a year they do that.
And two, it doesn't make her very fun to be around.
Not like this character. that's go wrong.
Poisoning and fucking people left right in the centre.
But I don't think I'd ever realised how beautiful she is, and I
think it's the makeup, but more than that, it's just how relaxed
smile.
Look at that beautiful confident smile.
She's so gorgeous.
She's usually so mousey.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so reading this thing where she's reading what a great success
this version of Archer is from their world, whereas this guy is
such a fucking loser.
You know, look how angry he is.
Two planets were named after him.
I mean, I'm not entirely sure I recognise that other archer either
from the evidence that we've seen.
There is a planet called Archer 2 that gets mentioned in Star Trek
the next.
And they've taken the 4th last episode of this to, you know, to
make it canon that that planet is named after Jonathan Archer.
It's between Aldea and Denib 4.
Oh, Chitsu.
I'm looking it up.
But you can you can actually feel the actors responding to the
scripts in this in a way that you don't normally feel that
watching Enterprise.
Yeah, look at the light in there.
My God, all the shadows. so good.
Oh, there was one hilarious moment in this episode, Nathan.
When the gorn attacks the fella in the tube and lifts him up.
There's no resistance to him.
It just all goes, whoop, up tube.
It's really tight.
It's quite terribly dumb.
You know, Kurtzman would have gone, let's go for another take.
Um, no, I've just discovered the planet's called Archer 4.
Uh, and it is...
So is there's a four?
Does that then mean there's one, two, and three?
I think so.
And they call it Archer 4 and that's the planet that they land on
in Strange New World, apparently.
All right.
So here's this this guy, this red shirt here, although it's just a
little red stripe because it's enterprise, and he's the one who
gets killed by the gore.
He just has victims stamped on his forehead, doesn't he?
He does.
But look at the wonderful set.
It's a fantastic set.
Beautiful, yeah. awesome, isn't it?
You know, here we go.
Watch him going up the tube.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
His leg.
You know, when you sort of get an itch on your leg.
His leg just sort of wiggles like that.
Just wiggle your legs about it.
With your legs.
I think they said to him, don't struggle too much on the harness
or snap or something like that, you know. might be right.
But when I think of those people being dragged down corridors by
the Gordon in strange new worlds.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just leaving a giant trail of blood. blood. can't do that on
enterprise.
That was such a brilliant episode, wasn't it?
Because I love this.
I just love them all hanging out on this TOS bridge.
I could just watch this.
Please don't go back to the usual bore against prize.
I keep saying it.
Yeah, well, really.
This scene, I thought, was really well done.
As a as a one scene role for an actor, I think the actor in the
blue makeup there does a great job.
Yeah.
Oh, look, Travis looks so camp, doesn't he?
Like he's all sweaty and he's singlet and his little, like his
hair, like his wig that he's wearing and his earring and stuff.
Oh, my God.
He's so pretty, isn't he?
Look at that.
Oh he's so sweated up as well.
Yeah, yeah.
Why would you not focus on that man?
Just wasted.
Why would you ignore him?
Disgraceful.
It's so bad too.
Like, it's so upsettingly bad.
They waste the 2 non-white characters in this show.
In that, um, cool Brandon Braga's task interview that they did
when they brought the whole trip together.
You know, he's so humble and he goes, yeah, I didn't care too much
that I didn't get too much to do because I was just hanging out
with these amazing actors and having a great time.
What I wanted him to say was, what the fuck?
Like you gave me 3 lines a season. you know.
Yeah, yeah.
And Jolene Blaylock got to play every bloody moment.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I actually think this is a little bit unpleasant to watch.
Oh, see, I love all this.
Well, I'm happy to play blood coming out his mouth.
Yeah, no.
When they put you in the tube and tort you, that's one thing.
They will do sausage.
It does look a bit like the blue man who was in the voice.
It's straight 2 hours episode, yeah.
He also looks a bit like the blue man in the Pal Moonlight.
Do you remember him?
Yeah.
I can't tell you how grateful I am to see you, captains, just go
about Villa.
He was wonderful, poor guy.
He gets blowed up.
Off screen, though. offscreen.
Offscreen.
I'll be along to say, hello, says Garak.
Oh, look, Anthony's changed into, into his, um, into his, uh, TOS
outfit there.
Why does everybody automatically look more hot in the TOS
uniform?
Yeah, yeah, they're great.
But can we not put Hoshi in in one?
Can't we see her in the miniskirt?
because they want to show off a midrift.
That the trouble.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I'm just watching the pretty pictures now.
I know, I know, it's amazing, isn't it?
But there's Mayweather in the background, Mayweather
Merriweather.
Oh my god, there's the gone.
And in sort of silhouette as well, you know?
Yeah, it's good though.
And it's not long enough for you.
It's kind of what he looks like.
So you're just like, no, no, no.
Turn around, turn the camera around.
I wanna see it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, well, sorry when they do that.
I think the bit where he struggles with archer and all of that.
I still think for the time it looks pretty impressive.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I know I keep going on about the line and I'm going to again.
But just remember those scenes in episode one on the bridge where
it is that very flat lighting and there's no depth to the shots.
Just watch all these shots in this episode.
All the characters stand out because they're being lit so
effectively.
So I think our archer, that's just his ambition, isn't it?
Because our archer represents for him, represents success.
He's successful, and our archer is constantly telling him to, you
know, sees things and be impressive and stuff.
So it's it's a little bit odd.
Like, I'm not sure that it properly works.
And surprisingly, seeing our archer is actually quite a relief.
Do you know what I mean?
Because this version of Archer is so much more of an asshole, even
than our archer, who is a bit more relaxed. an impossibility.
There we are.
Yeah, because he's such a focussing they could have done. would
have been for him to have had a redemptive story where at the end
he's like, I'm going to be a better person now I've read this. and
you know, and he goes, instead, no.
He portrays everybody.
No, he's an absolute loser.
I'm going to be the emperor.
Yeah, I'm going to be the emperor and then he's dead and better
people take over.
Please, I can read.
Where did he learn to fucking use a gun like that?
That's the campus thing I've ever seen?
He's having fun.
Again, I'm gonna say it.
Watch the framing, watch the camera movement.
There is some real effort going into this episode into how it
looks.
Yeah.
Yeah, they just want this to stand out a lot.
Come on, man.
I want to see the gourd.
Stop teasing me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, come on.
Oh here we go. here we go Oh, his claw goes down on the button
when he talks.
Yeah, that's awesome.
That's really great Those guys get exploded.
Oh, does Reed get killed nearly.
No, that's right.
No.
It's left ambiguous because they wanted to bring it back for the
5th season Mirror Universe.
Okay.
So we're not too sure.
They're super callous about it.
Like, Archer could have looked over him. the captain just ignores
him.
I mean, I'm wondering if, because he is sort of very obsequious to
Archer.
I'm wondering if he's supposed to fancy him a little bit. looking
for a gay reading anywhere in this.
Yeah, I just don't think there is any in this thing.
We're well and truly alpha in enterprise, aren't we?
Yeah.
Oh, that's...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's still not as good as the massive blood that they normally
have in strangely worlds with the dawn, though.
If you sort of switch this on now, you could have sworn you were
in an original series episode, couldn't you?
Maybe not now.
Yeah, yeah, it really looks like an original series episode, but
those sort of plastic, you know, like mustard bottles stuck to the
wall and stuff, you know.
But they're stepping over bodies, left, right, and centre.
Huge close up on Archer's face as they're going down the darkened
corridor.
There's proper suspense in this.
But, I mean, that's the scene in in the Tholian Web where the
sheep is full of dead bodies, you know.
Oh my god, here we go.
Yeah, I know that Gordon's around here somewhere.
Yeah, come on.
I mean, we love all of this.
We love go. there he is.
He's above you.
Why isn't he wearing a cocktail dress, like the original gone?
Why isn't he wearing something spangled?
There's no need to protect his modesty, this call.
He is saying something.
Yeah, yeah.
No, but he is wearing something.
He's just not wearing something quite as fabulous as the born in
arena.
That's really terrible.
Come on.
Look at him punching it.
He has hold of him.
He should be able to just disembowel him in a second.
It's like it's in a completely different room.
That's because it is Look, he picks up that man.
Yep.
And they follow him against the wall.
They should bite his head off.
There, that shot where he turns around, though, is great.
Yeah that is pretty good.
And then POV shots.
Love it.
Yeah.
Cheaper POV shots.
You see the gravity on and squash him.
Yeah, he's got great hatting along the corridor.
Oh yeah.
Oh, see, he's not wearing the, he's wearing a dress, but it's not
the Spangly dress that gone from.
They can't get the lighting, right?
They can't get the texture right yet.
Do you know what I mean?
That's the problem.
So it never really looks like part of the scene.
But good on them for trying, I think.
Fabulous.
Oh, come on, yeah.
It's captured Archer, against Argor.
I know.
Absolutely.
It's terrific.
And then he just shoots the gun in the hand, which is pretty
awesome.
Things weren't going to get better than that phone and web being
spun in space. here we are.
Yeah.
Oh, glorious.
And it is like, it's like you said, it's total fan wank, but it is
sort of tickling all the right areas, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, you can't be a fan of Star Trek and not love the Folian
Web and the Gorn being in the same... episode.
Absolutely.
If you're universe. you don't, there is something very wrong with
you.
Oh, look, they're eating the space plaster scene, look.
Yeah, yeah.
That always looks so grim, doesn't it?
Yeah, doesn't it terrible?
Blue beers.
There's some fruit there.
I think he's got some mango on his plate.
I love this line where in the mirror universe, Shakespeare is
really grim and everyone dies. which I think is really great.
It's equally grim, equally grim.
And so that does break the idea that that scene, that 1st contact
is where the divergence happens because he's been reading
literature from earlier, which is different in the 2 universes.
Billingsley played this as he learned as she says that they're
equal.
He doesn't react, but his eyes move as if to say he's taking it
in.
Yes, yeah.
And he's kind of thinking of along the captain's lines, isn't he?
Do you know what I mean?
He saying if I was the captain, I'd restrict knowledge of that
database.
As if that's in his interest, which, of course, it isn't, you know
who's attacking us?
All Vulcans and stuff.
Oh, what was I in his head?
Did you see that?
Shrapnel in his head.
An outdoor rim?
Oh, here he is.
Captain, what's his fella's name?
Soval. but the Vulcan Saval, who is the captain.
Enterprise, isn't he?
Uh, no.
So, isn't this, so, I can't remember.
I think they're blowing the shit out of that ship.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's really great, isn't it?
we ever wanted from your enterprise.
So this is the ISS Avenger is the name of this show.
Avenger.
Yeah.
Notice that Soval, of course, has a goatee because Spock has a
goatee in Mirror, Mirror.
So obviously our Vulcan has to have a, has to have a goatee here
as well.
You know why I remember that fella, the captain.
It's not because he's a regular enterprise.
He's the guy who comes to the station to put Dax on trial in
series one.
Oh, really?
It's his father that he accuses Dax of murdering.
Yeah.
And he's one of those actors that just has lots of different roles
in Star Trek.
Right, right.
I want to find the other rebels where I feel like we're in Star
Wars territory now.
But there is something, I do think, certainly in, um, through the
Looking Glass, in DS9 series 3, where they're talking about the
rebel alliance, that there is something sort of Star Wars-y that
started to creep into those alternative universe episodes.
Yeah.
Yeah, so, so, like, that's what I was kind of wondering about what
I was asking you about earlier, like kind of off Mike, which is
that...
You know, the thing about the Federation, that, like, this is the
opposite of the Federation, and you, we, we had that scene earlier
where, um, where Archer scoffs at the idea that it's a federation
that's multiracial and based upon, um, you know, alliances and
equality and stuff because the Terran, uh, empire is supremacist
and it's human supremacist, you know, and it, it's a little bit
surprising in episode one how many aliens we see on board the
ship.
But here he puts the aliens off the ship, remember?
And there's one good alien as far as he's concerned, and that's
flocks, and he wants to put everyone else off the ship.
Yeah.
Yeah, Archer looks so much more chill, doesn't he?
People are saying that he's camp in this, that...
The dark archer.
But I don't think he's camp.
He's not scenery chewing.
He's just an angry asshole.
He's an angry loser, you know.
There was just something about him. just screamed pathetic in
every scene.
And I think that's that's quite hard because Scott Bacula. is an
effortlessly sort of charismatic bloke.
So he has to work hard to seem pathetic.
Yeah, and he said that line earlier where we've got these new
phases from the 22nd century and he and they can completely
disintegrate someone.
So he says, I want to try that.
And so he tries it on the captain.
You know what it is?
It's, it's the sort of, um, is, is basically stressing that he's
got ideas above his station.
That's the sort of performance he's playing.
He wants to be this and he's only capable of this, but he's going
to go for it anyway.
And so that's why he's so kind of, like, put himself in a position
of authority here.
He's walking above the walkway looking down at his entire crew.
Look at Jolene.
She's wearing she's wearing the she's wearing a miniskirt.
Oh, sexy.
Yeah, I've been a soldier for my life.
Yeah, yeah, loser.
You'll always be a soldier.
You'll never be a commander.
But, I mean, that's what's so great, is that that's why he's so
kind of destroyed by seeing Archer's file because the other
archer.
It's proper.
You know what really sells it?
Is that just for men hair dye he's got on?
Somebody who's got, yeah, got gray and really put in a terrible
cup.
I have to try.
He can't accept it.
He bought some supermarket hair tie.
He doesn't realise that going gray is very sexy.
Can I just say, um, Anthony Montgomery in the background looking
at, um, uh, it's actually Montgomery plays.
Yeah, yeah, Mayweather, yeah.
Pretty. yeah, yeah, yeah.
Looking with contempt at Archer, whose bodyguard he is.
I forgot.
Yeah, look at her.
Look at this.
I thought he had a bigger role in this, actually.
I think it's just because he's prominent in a few scenes that it
feels like he's got a big role.
Yeah, yeah, he doesn't really.
They just let him be in front of the camera a bit.
There is one wonderful moment.
I think it's towards the end of this episode.
You know, where that thing, that bit of technology that comes out
of the console on the bridge that you look through.
Yeah, it gets a big long shot looking through that and I was like
well, there we go.
He's doing something.
Good for him.
You patronising kit.
That's all he gets.
At least he's hanging out with his friends.
Yeah, that's true.
That is true.
Oh, here we go.
Right.
She's trying to incite rebellion now.
Yeah.
She's really great in this scene, I have to say, she's awesome.
She's so animated.
I could just imagine them all getting these scripts and going...
What's this?
these characters with life?
Let's go.
Oh, yi, yi.
I quite like her hair too.
Do you know what I mean?
I know what sort of blonde girl hair is sort of super boring and
kind of mid, but I think it's, he's an insane idea.
Do you think that a series could be sustained in the Mirror
Universe?
No.
Because what would it be about?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, what's it about?
I suppose it would be this, wouldn't it?
It would be trying to regain our humanity, create a federation in
this terrible place.
That's kind of boring, though.
I think, you know, like, I think that this works because it gives
our actors fun new things to do, and that's particularly waste
their excuse.
If they inadvertently say something thoughtful about Star Trek
then happy days, but it's actually, let's just let them have a
laugh.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, like, I think I think in discovery is where it has the
most clear political purpose.
Mirror, mirror, you know, like mirror, mirror is what if Star Trek
had been like a cheesy space opera and Star Trek, all the stuff on
DS9 is, let's put Nana Visitor in some leather and...
This scene here, which is all in silhouette, right?
You've got Linda, Linda Park and Scott Bacula, and they eventually
end up sort of fucking on the bed.
Yeah.
It's quite explicit.
It's sexy in a way this show never is.
But look at what she's talk- look at what he's talking about.
He's saying, we're going to put all the aliens off the ship, that
it's only going to be human beings on the ship.
Um, and then she says...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But he's a good alien.
You know, that's the thing supremacist.
That's the thing.
Yeah, you know, yeah.
It's possible to be an acceptable.
Yeah, I've got nothing against flocks.
You know, it's possible to a mansion.
You just can't see what she's doing to him, but, you know, my
imagination is going crazy.
Yeah, they've got proper chemistry.
I'm like Jesus, who knew?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, no, we have talked a bit about romance in 90s trek lately.
This is quite sexy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Never been the consort of an emperor before.
And I don't plan to be the consort of an emperor.
I think they might actually be fucking right now.
Like, if you wanted to read that into that scene, then...
No, this is, they go discreetly out of shot, you know, the fuck.
I am so on board with Jolene wearing that Starfleet outfit there.
That's so much more fun and can than that couple things she's been
wearing.
Look at those coloured buttons.
And I love those cars.
They insert in.
And the plaster scene food.
We just want to watch the original series.
Enterprise, stop reminding us how much better things were back in
the day.
That's right.
Doesn't Travis look so hot in the red uniform, too.
He just looks great.
But I'll tell you the difference is, like, you see, you see the
lighting at the back of the set there with the gridding on the
wall.
It's got a depth to it that the original series didn't have, you
know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's like the best of both worlds.
Yeah, so who's this guy?
He's demanding unconditional surrender.
Yeah, I don't know.
But then it becomes, doesn't it, a battle between the 2 of them
and I love all of this stuff.
And then flocks is trying to sabotage one ship and they're trying
to get the other hand on the other and they're throwing the shit
out of each other.
Oh, it's just great.
And so this is him, isn't it?
It's him, you know, how far are we?
We're, you know, 10 minutes from the end and he's very, very close
to his sort of absolute final victory and he's going to blow the
shit out of earth and he's there.
He's saying, I'm going to destroy your cities.
You know, until you surrender to me.
It's so great.
Oh my god, I've got to stop talking about the lion.
That corridor looks so great.
I mean, only in a Star Trek podcast, because I probably say that
corridor looks great.
So they don't do the colour gels, do they?
But there's light spilling on the thing, you know, they have light
spilling on the, here we are.
So what are you doing here?
It's really moody.
Oh, yes, yeah.
We're going to sabotage the fire.
Because he trusts flocks.
He's the only one that could get in there and sabotage without
arousing suspicion.
Yeah.
And Flock's still, he can't quite...
No, no, break out of his chase, can he?
Yeah, exactly.
So what makes him do it?
Do we have, do we have sort of, it just makes a decision.
No, doesn't she say that if Archer fails?
If Archer fails to kill the emperor, then he will be tried. and
execute.
We would all be executed.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And so...
And what was the other one?
Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right.
And he'll get as many wives as he likes.
He'll get as many women as he likes if he saves the emperor's
life.
He'll be able to ask the emperor.
The facility of your own.
No, no.
Conduct experiments as you see fit.
You can carve up as many animals as you like.
And plus, lots of females.
And that's what he reacts to.
Look, even his tongue comes out.
Females, you can have as many concubines as you like. and we know
that he's Polly, so he's like, oh, well, in that case.
Torturing animals and women, you say.
Oh, yes.
Well, because our flocks is just lovely, and I have no doubt that
he has no difficulty attracting people.
Swinger uncle, isn't he?
Look at her swinging her hips there.
Oh, the guns are out now.
Confident as anything.
My God, can I just say this fight in a minute between Tapal and
good grief, what's her name?
Hoshi.
Hoshi?
It's so great.
It's vicious.
I love watching 2 women going at it like that.
Look at this. punches him in her face, grabs the gun.
Yep, yep.
She's got the knife out. green blood smear across her face.
Yeah, that's pretty good too.
And now look. look how excited she is.
Holy shit.
The park is so good.
They're in their teeth, aren't they?
Yeah, when they're up against the wall.
These carriages are so fucking boring normally.
What's going?
Yeah, that's right.
That's right So she's, she says something cruel to Hoshi about how
she's hopping from bed to bed and then, and then Hoshi says, yeah
um, Tucker told me that I should give you some tips because you're
really shitting bed, which I thought was okay.
That something did stand out for me in that scene, no.
And that is it's only in the alternative universe that they could
possibly have dialogue like that, right?
this show in this very boring show.
Whereas, come to us 9 series 7, Wharf was calling Ezra, Dax are
slut in every other episode.
Say, look at Ryan's a bag.
Like Enterprise brings Orion's back to Star Trek, which was a
thing that we should always have had.
There was a shot of the manacles there, but I think it was just an
excuse to get another shot.
Another.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
They're not quite out of that exploiting the ladies phase.
No, no.
They never break out of it.
No, no.
And they don't do it when the Mirror Universe comes back in
Discovery Series one.
No.
I mean, Emperor Giorgio's head to toe in chiffon, for goodness
sakes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, looking fabulous.
Like, looking incredible.
Kicking people in the head.
You know what I mean?
I saw someone sword in one hand, a gun in the other. and she's got
more frills.
She's got an opera singer.
She looks fabulous.
Oh, dear.
Oh, yeah, this doesn't traumic module, is it?
So Geotronic, like there are Duotronic computers in original Star
Trek.
I think that's an original Star Trek reference.
And so he removes the power, doesn't he?
Like, he disengages the power, but then it doesn't work.
Trip comes and puts it all back.
Oh, I'm so sad.
There's only 6 minutes left.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's all going down at the moment.
This is like this battle in a minute, this space.
Oh look at Mayweather.
He's bulging out costume, isn't he?
he really is.
It's really working for him.
Oh, God, Trenier looks somewhat less attractive.
Yeah, we are getting his best side there.
Oh no, there we go.
Yeah, it is a pike thing, isn't it?
It's a very definite reference to Pike.
Come on, start the, oh, take a team aboard the Avenger. provide
every alien on that ship.
There we go.
Yep, yep.
Yeah.
So something's gonna happen.
And um, Hoshi is determined to have Tapole killed now for having
the nerve of uh, does she get murdered?
fighting her.
No, we don't see it, do we?
We can assume that's the case though after the last scene.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But like you said, if they imagined a series 5 and they wanted to
do a sequel, they can't have her killed on camera.
There we go. shit versus shit.
Like they, they have, they have poured a lot of money into this 2
part, haven't they?
We've had, you know, hand-hand fights, CGI monsters, a ton of
makeup, lots of different aliens, new sets.
Yeah, yeah.
They've really gone to town.
Good on them.
Good on them for doing that in this bit of fluff.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, at the end, at the end.
Why not?
Let's go crazy.
But what I really just thought was like, let's do lots of Star
Trek shit, this is our last chance.
So let's make it a Star Trek as we possibly can.
You know what, right?
They're literally blowing the shit out of these sets now.
Every time it happens, your face lights up.
I didn't think you could look at any more beautiful than you
usually do. every time there's an explosion, here we are.
Yes, there, there, Connor's putting them all back.
Lots of exciting thing trying to shove rubber tubes into...
They're fluorescent, they're fluorescent lights.
He's putting fluorescent lights back in.
Shit versus shit.
And do you know what was really exciting about this battle?
Because this is the alternative universe?
Because all bets are off.
Anything could happen.
I didn't know.
Enterprises already been destroyed. always know Enterprise is
going to win, don't you?
Whereas in this, I didn't have a clue.
So I was like, okay, so is this going to be, are they going to
kill off all of the alternative regulars?
No, but we are going to kill Sauval though.
Oh, look, it's great.
We're blasting the hell out of those enterprise sets again.
Again, yeah, we blow up the Enterprise twice.
I genuinely think they did wait till the end of the season to
shoot this, you know.
Well, we don't need these sets anymore.
Go to town.
Oh my god. saw some rocks on the floor.
There are rocks on the floor.
Absolutely.
There we go.
Oh, that blows up getting prop up.
And then in exactly the same time, Archer has an extreme orgasm.
Did you notice them?
right.
They can only really do it in metaphor win.
No, he's trekk.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Not a very subtle metaphor, but there you go.
He really is quite sweaty.
They both are.
And Hoshi has been pouring drinks quite a bit throughout this two
parter.
Yeah.
So how do you see him a bubbly now is not unusual.
Actually, the bit that I think is really funny that made me twig
that was poison is her reaction when he pours it on himself and
it's almost like you watch what she does because he pours the wine
on his face.
Like he drinks some of the wine.
She's, then he pours it on himself and she reacts as if it's like
oh, I hope none of her got on me, you know?
But that's like the last pathetic act he did, just literally
pouring it all over his body.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. there he goes.
What a twat.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Look, yeah.
I love it, love.
Because he's going to be dead.
She still has a little sip.
She's so cool.
She's like, I'm going to drink some of this champagne, you know?
And then hot Mayweather walks in in a second.
Yeah.
There he goes.
Before he dies, she lets him see her kissing Mayweather.
Yeah.
You're pathetic, and look at this hunk I've got.
Here's my hot boyfriend.
I don't I don't think your chances are very high on survival
frankly, if you're gonna...
I don't know.
Remember, she's at the top now.
She doesn't have to knife her way any further up and he is
pretty.
I mean, I think if I was emperor.
I would keep him around.
Love this last scene where she walks in and says on the emperor.
Emperor Sato.
It's such a girl.
Look at this.
No wonder she loved this episode.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, she's having fun and she's so, she gets me attractive.
Look at the sexy makeup she has.
So good.
That's it. end it there.
We don't ever need to go back here.
What a great place to end.
Prepare to receive instructions and then a little smile and then
we're out.
I just don't think anything good's going to happen with her being
in charge, but boy, 0 boy, what an idea.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That was pretty great.
And it is nice to know that her descendant, the fabulous Empress
George.
Not her descendant, but her successor, let's say.
And so has the kind of triumphal name that Hoshi adopts when
she...
You know, one day Emperor Sato is going to wear costumes as
fabulous as Giorgio.
I'm sure she does. in a palace full of scantily dressed men with a
huge whip, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sorry, I've got back into my fantasy land again.
I just want to be empress of the alternative universe.
That was great.
I have really enjoyed that.
Like, like, like you said, you could pull up the threads of that
and they're also really much to it.
And even like the subplot of them, you know, forming a rebellion
is half-assed.
And doesn't go anywhere.
They lose, but that's okay.
Like that's, you know, the mirror universe, you know, they're
never going to win.
It does inspire a rebellion, but this is the mirror universe and
we know what the mirror universe is like in the future.
It terrible.
They're not going to fix anything.
But, like, it's so rare for me to watch Enterprise, I just have a
big smile on my face.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. and just have a blast with it and just, you know
just for once, I'll push any sort of criticisms I've got to one
side, that deserves its place.
Maybe not on the all of the, you know, best Star Trek episodes
ever.
That might be grading on the curve a little bit, I think.
In your terms, they definitely have a ceiling and they don't ever
really bumper above that.
But on the enterprise scale.
Yeah, that is way up there.
I don't think there's anything wrong with aspiring to be fun and
entertaining.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, so often enterprise doesn't manage that?
And sometimes all kind of TV shows fail at that and no one's ever
intending not to be that.
But this is just solidly entertaining.
There's explosions and fights and and battles and people get to
camp it up and, you know, fun things happen.
Like I just thought it was really good.
In terms of alternative universe episodes, and there's a lot of
them now, you know, there's like, there's a half season of them in
90s strict terms.
I'd say I would probably put Mirror, Mirror, and Crossover, the
1st DS91, like top tier.
I think they're both astonishing.
But this might be sort of my 2nd one.
And then and then I do think some of the discovery stuff is good.
But there's so much of it.
Like there's 4 or 5 episodes of it, isn't there?
And so it's sort of hard to grapple.
There's moments where it's not so great and there's moments where
it's brilliant.
I think, you know, it ends tremendously well.
The beginning of it is really great.
You know, there's a fight sequence between Jorjo and what's the
fella's name?
Lorkar. which is amazing.
You know, like the scene where Ash sees Volk, you know, like the
Klingon version of himself, all of that sort of stuff happens in
the mirror universe.
Like, I think it's a really fun sequence, but it's not a story.
It's 5 episodes in the Mirror Universe, which is a strange thing
to do, but I'm glad that they attempted it.
And it does fit into the themes of the show.
So, you know, it's doing something quite different using Star Trek
stuff and repurposing it for something different.
And I think that's a good thing to do.
But what I do love is how much it draws from this 2 part story
terrific.
What I love about this two-part story is how much it's willing to
draw from TOS.
Some of the most memorable TOS as well.
Yeah, and do it pretty well.
Um, sort of my ultimate accolade for this two-parter is, and I
will very, very rarely make this comparison.
It takes hold of something, the alternative universe, that DS9
basically pissed all over and spoiled by overexposure, and
actually pulled it back into something that's really worth
watching.
So Bravo, Manikoto, Bravo Enterprise, you went out on a bit of a
high.
Yeah.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to
find out where we're going next.
A rare success for you this time, I thought.
Yes, it doesn't happen very often, but I feel like I'm vindicated
in my choice last time.
So good for me.
How are you going to ruin it all for us?
Well, I've chosen one series from sort of each iteration of Star
Trek.
Just totally randomly.
Okay.
The animated series?
No, I have actually put in the original series.
Okay.
I've put in DS9 from 90s track. and Discovery from Kosman's
track.
Okay?
Okay.
We're going to bat about all over the place now.
Okay.
Your random Star Trek discovery episode is season four, episode
four.
All is possible.
So this episode is, I think, the inspiration or possibly a kind of
weird backdoor pilot for Starfleet Academy.
So we've talked about it before on here.
It's the episode where Tilly takes a shuttle full of cadets and it
crash lands on an ice planet and they have to deal with a monster
and stuff and they learn a valuable lesson about themselves and
you know, the usual thing.
So it is a sort of, it's a Star Trek standard, I think, like
learning curve or something, but not crap, you know, done well.
It could be worse than learning curves.
No that's right.
But it's Tilly and Adira in one of those beautiful future shuttles
landing on a planet with a fabulous, convincing monster and kids
that have kind of political issues with each other and stuff and
who learn something about one another.
So a very standard, very Star Treky thing done well, you know
unfortunately, I have already pressed the button again, although
that was thinking...
Not really.
Well, I mean, I'm not sure I want this one either, but I'll see
what you think.
Your random Star Trek D Space 9 episode is season five.
So that's usually a good bit for me.
Episode 24 Empoc nor.
Oh, this is like the sex cult and the great tradition of reusing
our sets to be something else.
See, also the defiant.
You're thinking of the confident from episode series 7.
This is the one where O'Brien needs some technobabble technology.
So we go to Empoc Nor, because covenant's on Empoc Nor, but it's
not the episode Empoc Nor, right?
We take Garak with ours because there's bound to be Cardassian
booby traps.
Okay.
And it turns out it's an experimentational facility to create
Cardassian psychopaths and Garak gets infected with the thing.
And stars get...
And Andrew Robinson gets to do what he does in every other thing.
Let's kill a load of people.
Wow.
And there's a ton of sort of red shirts there that die in various
spectacular ways.
It's very well directed, but it's like, it's just like a, it's
like a horror movie.
Right, okay.
What do you think?
I don't mind.
I'd be I'd be up for it.
I think it's probably sort of mid as well, and we haven't done a
lot mid, have we?
We haven't done any mid ones.
Maybe it's a work of challenges. one great jump scare in it that I
remember.
I'll screw it.
Let's do it.
And plus we'll get to see those fabulous sets with just the light
down a little bit more.
Lie down, camera on a bit of an angle.
I'm thinking, perhaps.
I think the station's on an angle, just a differentiator from our
usual station.
I mean, it's like Brian.
Oh, and knock goes as well.
And terrible things happen to porn.
Oh, yes.
You remember when we watched Rox and Shoals and he wouldn't go
behind Garak?
That's right. he'd been torturing him.
Okay.
Well, let's go watch a load of Starfleet cadets getting murdered
horribly.
Okay.
Not learning available lesson about themselves.
Anything at all.
No, okay, good.
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com where you can find
subscription links and links to our social media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Larm.
This episode was recorded on the 6th of August 2024 and released
on the 16th of August.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Deep Space 9 and Pop Nore.
God, it's been so long since I've seen that.
It might be great.
I can't even remember.
Charles is off.
I seem to remember it's fairly well directed.
I think that's Mike Vajar, who did, like, change your face of
evil.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. mention him several times, I think.
Oh well, let's find out.
All right.
Okay.
He won't have to phone in web and he won't have the corn in it.
But it does have Garak.
Yeah, that's something.
He's pretty great.
Have we outed yet?
I'm not entirely sure How did what?
The episode.
Choosing this episode.
Have we out of there?
Yeah, have we, you know, the bit where we stopped talking about
choosing the episode.
Have we reached the end of that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And now we're just talking?
Or are we just talking?
No, no, no.
I noticed a bit.
I noticed a bit, which I e-marked for the end of it.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, murder we loaded.
Starfleet cadets Yeah.
And none of them learning available lesson about themselves.
Oh, yeah, that's great.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, we should, I mean, we'll do all this possible at some point
because it is pretty good, and it is a standalone in series four
which is a thing.
Discovery is now.
Now we've got...
We've got our actual finite amount of discovery episodes.
So the percentage will now only go down.
It can never go up.
Yes.
Well, up.
It'll go up to the percentage of ones that we've done.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes, but that's true of all of the series, except for lower text.
And Strange New Worlds. and Stranger Worlds.
And Star Trek Academy, which will eventually end up on the random
which is going to come.
Thatll be cool.
Yeah.
And we've got we've got one more series of lower decks coming
later this season.
Oh, and only murders and only murders in the building is out in
October on August the 27th, like in just a couple weeks.
I'm so enjoying that and I don't know why we stopped watching it.
I think it's because we've got we've got all of these shows we're
juggling and none of them, we just need to watch one.
You know?
I've watched the 1st episode of this Obi-Wan Kenobi.
And like in central, I want to watch the next one because I know
what a happen is.
You'll go, oh, let's try this and then that's another one that
will get shelved for 10 years.
Um, that was...
Well, because when I go to Robert's place, That was our show.
Like we would watch only motors in the building when it came out.
And, you know, it's so clever and so funny.
Yeah, I love wonderful. name director I love him so much.
Oh, Martin Short's character.
Did you say that again, please?
But with more meaning?
So good.
But just Selena Gomez is kind of going, oh my god.
Like these weird octogenarians that I'm kind of lumbered with is
so funny.
So great.
But I've got to say, I could not believe how visually stunning Obi
Wan Kenobi was.
I just was like, I kept saying to Mark, I can't believe this is
telly.
I cannot believe I'm watching TV.
Mandalorian.
Well, that's on this run, so I will watch the Mandalorian because
we're doing the whole lot through in order.
Okay, because I, I mean, I like the Mandalorian until it gets too
Star Wars, Ian, and I don't give a shit.
I was so drab looking.
I couldn't believe it.
Yeah, blue, you know?
It was like series 9 of Doctor Who.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Show me some green.
The, like, like, I thought, you know, because you've got Tandy
Newton and you've got, you know, um, Woody Harrelson and you've
got all of these people who are actually really good actors and
stuff.
He's Woody Harrelson, isn't he?
Is he in it?
Oh, in a dreamy?
Yeah, no, he is, yeah.
Yeah, like it's got good actors, isn't it?
Mia Clark was good in it as well, I thought.
Beautiful, um, um, what's his face, who plays Lando?
Oh, Donald Glover.
Donald Glover.
Yeah.
I think he's tremendous.
He was the best thing, isn't it?
His lando was so accurate.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I didn't think the solo man, though, was...
I think just, yeah, I think recasting, like, if you're going to
keep hauling these characters out, you have to recasting.
It's so interesting here, because that one bombed.
And so they were going to do 2 sequels and then, yeah, yeah.
Well, like, people think Rogue One is better, but I think, like
Rogue One's visually more interesting, but there's so many men in
it, and like, it's been cut to ribbons, so I don't know what
Felicity Jones's character stands for or is doing.
And then they get those elements and they bring them all, like, and
Cassian Andor is super boring.
And then they make Fiona Shaw, his mother, and they bring, you
know, those elements into Andor, and I think Andor's just
terrific.
We watched all the trailers for all the shows and that one was the
one visually, the trailer stood out to me.
Yeah, and Mon Mothma's in it, like the woman who plays Mon Mothma
in...
It might be a bit too much of a reference for me. don't know who
that is.
The woman who plays, so Monmouth is in Return of the Jedi, and
she's the woman who says, Benny Botham's died to bring us this
information.
You know, the woman who gives the briefing, you know, um, and then
she, she's like, um, Felicity Jones's antagonist in Road Guan, and
she's Senator Monmoutha, and she's super posh with this sort of
cut glass accent.
Oh, even though I think Oh, I remember.
Yeah, and she's played by an Australian hilariously. and she's
fucking fabulous in in Andor.
She's so good.
And the new companion.
And the new Doctor Who companion is also in it as a, um, you know
character.
She's, she's the girlfriend of Shona from last Christmas, who is
also a very posh rebel who, um, yeah, like, I think it's really
good, and it's so beautifully written.
There's some great speeches and some terrific acting in it.
Like I just thought it was fucking great.
And I don't care about any of the law heavy stuff.
And like I wasn't going to watch Obi-Wan.
I wasn't going to watch the book of Boba Fett. like I just thought
those are for other people to enjoy.
But people started talking about Andor and I believed them and
they're fucking so good.
I think it, like, Ewan McGregor wants to be there, you know, what
can I be?
And the difference in his performance.
Yeah, he's like, that would be properly acting in that, you know?
Yeah, okay, which is great.
But just a little girl that they've got playing Leia, it's
sublime.
She's like 8 years old and she's acting all of these adults off
the screen.
She's amazing.
And she's a total cow as well.
Really fun.
I was like, I wasn't sure what to expect.
I got to go to that episode.
I was like, yeah, next one please.
Yeah, okay. that's really good