WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-01 at 19:37:05

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Hey, Joe. Hi.

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So this is really a big one, isn't it?

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Like, this is an absolute top tier episode of Star Trek that kind

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of goes off format almost completely, and almost aggressively

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refuses to explain why and ends up being our weekly dose of

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science fiction, not so much because it's science fiction in

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itself, but because in a way, it's about science fiction.

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So this is obviously far beyond the stars, directed by Avery

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Brooks himself and written by Hans Spinler and Ira Stephen Baer.

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Um, I think this is maybe the best episode of the run.

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It certainly has good claim to be.

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Top 3 easily.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Right.

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But like, I mean, whenever I look at my top 5 DS9s, there's always

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one sort of completely break the rules and don't do your standard

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DS9 trials and tribulations, you know, duet, tink like that to the

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holiday.

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Well, that's you, not me.

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Jesus Christ.

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Okay.

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Although, to be fair, they'll take me out to the hollow suite and

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this are both the show letting their hair down a bit as well, which

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is great.

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You use the word aggressive there.

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This has got some very aggressive things to say about some meaty

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subjects.

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And as Armand Shimman says a lot, and I've got some quotes later

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it's doing what Star Trek at its best does, and that is holding up

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a mirror to humanity now, and possibly, hopefully, giving us a

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lesson or 2 or certainly making us think about how we behave.

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Yeah, it's, I mean, the thing about it too, like, I actually think

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you know, there's something great about that Star Trek approach to

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take, uh, to take a social issue and then do an allegory of it, you

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know, something like critical care or workforce in Voyager, say.

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And here, the simple refusal to do that, to just do it by setting

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a drama in sort of 1953 or whenever, and getting us to see a

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character who isn't normally subject to those kinds of pressures

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because he's in a sort of utopian future, where all that stuff is

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passed.

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And the show does say that, doesn't it?

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We did watch better being better bang, where Cassidy speaks to Ben

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and says, you know, the sword of discrimination and racism that we

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face, that people like us face in the 1960s isn't a thing now.

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And so we take a character who has been free from that.

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But, But whose conception isn't free from that.

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This is, you know, one of a very small number of shows at the time

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that ever had a black lead on American network TV.

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Like that's extremely rare.

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There was resistance to that.

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Yeah?

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Like from the viewership and within the production of the show

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there was some resistance for that.

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And they just went with it anyway.

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And am I wrong to say that he is raining it in a bit early on, that

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he's he's muted and he's nowhere near as, um, like he becomes more

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himself as the show's run goes on.

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And there are more references to his African heritage and things

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in the way, way that he dresses and the way that he decorates his

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quarters and stuff like that, that Avery gets more and more input

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into kind of showing what what it means to be black, that he's

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generally a black man written by white people, right?

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But Avery really starts emerging in season three, I think.

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And then when season 4 starts, Ara Bear literally says, let him

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cut his hair off.

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For God's sakes, let him cut his hair off.

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He's not comfortable.

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He's clearly not comfortable on the screen.

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Let him be a black man for God's sakes and he bursts out of Way of

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the Warrior.

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And for the rest of the run man, he's on fire.

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By the time we get to this point in series 6, at a point where

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he's directing himself in an episode he's passionately involved in

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because of the subject matter, I mean, he just blows my socks off

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in this.

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Because, you know, the one thing that really strikes me, it's a

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few conversations that Ben has with with a Jimmy character who's

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played by Siri Lofton, who is scornful about science fiction

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because it's stories of white people on the moon, that are written

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for white people, and Renee Overjoir's character is aware that the

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audience for Incredible Tales, the people who are buying the

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magazine, that Benny Russell works for white people overw

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Whelmingly. and right wing white people as well.

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People who won't want to see a black main character.

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You know, that that's, that black writers are for liberals and

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intellectual.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But with a comment as well, that DC Fontana, sorry, Casey Hunter

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is not allowed to have her photograph in the magazine either, and

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she has to use initials.

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There's a long way to go in a lot of respects.

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And I also think Arman Shimmerman too.

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Like, is Arman Shimmerman playing a Jewish character in this?

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His name's Herbert Rossoff.

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And and Obershoir's character who is really interesting and God

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Renee is so great.

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He's so great in this.

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He gets called a communist.

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You know, like he calls Herbert Rosoff a communist at some point

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in what is a pretty great line.

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You know, he's never been happy since Joseph Stalin died, which is

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pretty great.

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Yeah, so all of those people like it, there are hints at other

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pressures people are experiencing at the time, but it refuses to

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decenter the black characters and we see a variety of black

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characters who are experiencing those pressures in different

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ways.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Like, it's not just the black character, let's see, where he

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reacts.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Michael Dawn's play.

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Michael says he's allowed to play. you know.

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Oh, my God.

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It's so charming.

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He's wonderful, isn't he?

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so hot and so charming.

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It's wonderful.

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He's such a big man He's stunning.

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I just pointed out too, Mark, as I was watching this.

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That's Wolf.

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He went, really?

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He's gorgeous, isn't he?

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Yeah, yeah.

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Oh my god.

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I mean, you've made a good point there about Renee.

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Like the biggest key to this story's success or one of them at

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least, is it's this cast playing these roles.

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Yeah.

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And they're all great character actors, including the extended

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cast, because you've got Marco Lamo in there, J.G. Hertzler, you

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know, everybody Barr, Casey Biggs, but he's going to do his turn

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next year.

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So don't worry.

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Yeah, yeah, which we already seen.

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I think he has some work at the theatre or something you couldn't

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get away from.

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Yeah okay.

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Boy, I bought that and they're loving playing these roles. aren't

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they?

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And they're given sort of fast snappy fun dialogue to play

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wonderful interactions.

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They get to the heart of who those people are immediately and

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their personalities just beam out.

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On acting alone.

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I think this is one of the best Star Trek episodes.

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And then, you know, my perennial obsession, this is shot like in

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in the Paramount lot, is it?

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Or it's shot...

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Oh, shot outside, just tons of extras, so many extras.

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It's like an expensive episode, a normal episode of an expensive

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TV show.

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This must have cost a lot of money, even though it's not sort of

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space nonsense that we're spending the money on.

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And it just looks great.

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It looks real in a way that Star Trek never, ever does in this

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era.

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There's a wonderful bit.

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Because if we go to the Paramount Battle a lot during 90s train

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you know, this is the same place where we filmed non-sequitur in

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Voyager, and it's the same place where we filmed past tense, a few

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seasons back in DS9, you know, and count as other stories.

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There's one sequence at night as well, which I love where they're

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coming out of like the jazz bar and it's all lit up and it's just

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so beautifully done.

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And like you said, there's people hanging out of buildings and

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things.

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It just, yeah, the money's on the side. everywhere.

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All these cars, like it's really great.

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It's properly good.

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I have got a list of quotes to get through.

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So I'll say some now and I'll say some during the episode and just

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see what you think about some of this.

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So Avery Brooks comments.

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If we change the people's clothes, if this story could be about

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right now, what's insidious about racism is that it's

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unconscious.

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Even among these very bright and enlightened characters, a group

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that includes a woman writer who has to use a man name to get her

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work published, and who is married to a brown man with a British

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accent in 1953.

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It's perfectly reasonable to coexist with someone like Papst.

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It's in the culture.

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It's the way people think.

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So that was the approach I took.

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I never talked about racism.

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I just showed how these intelligent people think and it all came

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out of them.

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Yeah, yeah. really good, isn't it?

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That's how that's sort of Avery Brooks is thinking doing this and

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just a word for the direction.

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It's just so stylish.

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I mean, he makes that wonderful call of just using stock footage

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of New York and then cut it into the scenes, you know. beautiful.

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Um, there's some, I did this on these on the voyages recently.

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Well, surprise, surprise.

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The cast opinions on this episode are sort of diametrically

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opposed to the cast opinions on these are the voyages.

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Renee says a brilliant episode, one of the best of the whole

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series, Avery did a fabulous job directing it.

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Michael Dawn says it was wonderfully shot.

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Penny Johnson who's always got loads of great things to say.

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She's brilliant, isn't she?

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This was beautifully handled, beautifully short.

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But it's still in the heart it got me.

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JG Hertz, no.

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I thought far beyond the stars was one that you could have built

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an entire series from of Brooks's performance in the episode.

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Jeffrey Coombes commented.

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Avery was spectacular.

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There was a scene towards the end where he falls apart with a

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camera right in front of his nose.

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It was just riveting to watch.

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Armond Shimmerman has the most to say about this.

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Far beyond the stars is without a question, my favourite episode.

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It's perfect science fiction.

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Obviously, this is not a quark episode, but the reason I like that

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one so much is that it's perfect science fiction, I think it

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really stretches the imagination of the viewer and breaks down the

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4th wall to talk about the real heroes of any TV shows, which are

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the writers.

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I loved what our writers did with it.

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It was one of the most creative TV episodes I've ever seen or been

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in.

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I do tend to watch it again whenever it's on because it was just a

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terrific episode.

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I really do like actually the that that whole angle on the

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episode.

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We talked about it before, haven't we?

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We talked about Jake in the Muse.

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Do you remember?

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Yeah.

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So that is a bit of a feature of Deep Space Time.

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And here, so when they appreciate it enough, you know.

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That's right.

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So Betty Russell isn't a sort of civil rights activist or anything

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like that, he's a writer doing his job, but existing as a black

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man in that environment as well.

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And obviously, this is a show that valorizes writing.

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And so we have this sort of hero who is enjoined by Brock Peters

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who also is in this episode, Brock Peters plays a preacher who's

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kind of leaking in from the 24th century because he talks about

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the province a lot, but encouraging Benny to write the story.

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And I think it's pretty incredible.

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You know, like he's pretty great too.

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There's one more comment before we go into this. about A

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redirecting because it's unusual, this episode, in that the person

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directing the episode is the focus of the episode.

250
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So he has to be both behind and in front of the camera. technically

251
00:12:55.559 --> 00:12:56.220
at the same time.

252
00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:59.460
There's a quote here that says originally on our director's

253
00:12:59.460 --> 00:13:02.879
schedule for that season, Avery wasn't scheduled to direct far

254
00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:03.779
beyond the stars.

255
00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:06.720
And I think as we talked about it more, it became clear that we

256
00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:10.080
can't not have Avery direct that episode because it's all about

257
00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:13.740
representing this struggle in our country's past and in some

258
00:13:13.740 --> 00:13:15.240
instances, the present.

259
00:13:15.299 --> 00:13:18.240
Brooks himself recalled, Ara Bear came to me.

260
00:13:18.299 --> 00:13:21.600
He said, I have this idea and I want to know if you're interested

261
00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:25.259
because you'll be in front of the camera, but I also want to know

262
00:13:25.259 --> 00:13:26.759
if you want to direct.

263
00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:30.120
And I said, well, okay.

264
00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:34.139
I'm glad he did because he does a superb job.

265
00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:36.659
And I think that that story had to be told by him as well.

266
00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:41.279
Like it needed to be acted by a black man and told by a black

267
00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:41.759
man.

268
00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:46.440
And particularly the scene at the end, because, like, I think the

269
00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:51.659
breakdown is brutal and having him carried off in an ambulance at

270
00:13:51.659 --> 00:13:56.700
the end, like, um, there's all sorts of things that make me want

271
00:13:56.700 --> 00:14:01.019
the episode not to end like that for it to end in some way and

272
00:14:01.019 --> 00:14:01.440
triumph.

273
00:14:01.500 --> 00:14:05.820
In a way, it does end in tribe because here is Cisco 300 years

274
00:14:05.820 --> 00:14:09.779
later, who's not subject to these same forces.

275
00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:15.840
But this is a story told by Avery with Avery's approval, he didn't

276
00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:18.659
write it, but he agreed to act it.

277
00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:19.500
He acted it.

278
00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:22.860
He determined himself how he was going to play it.

279
00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:27.240
And so the story is told by him in very large measure, and that's

280
00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:29.220
absolutely the right call.

281
00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:33.960
And so it's kind of our job to sit back and just see what he says

282
00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:34.500
I think.

283
00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:38.580
I know I know we do like a triumphant ending, especially against

284
00:14:38.580 --> 00:14:40.799
something. terrible with racism.

285
00:14:40.860 --> 00:14:44.460
I think sometimes you just have to make the point of the injustice

286
00:14:44.460 --> 00:14:44.940
of it.

287
00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:49.259
And the way this episode, and I realise watching this time, just

288
00:14:49.259 --> 00:14:53.580
how this episode played me emotionally, watching it scene foreseen

289
00:14:53.580 --> 00:14:56.639
taking him to such lows and such highs.

290
00:14:56.700 --> 00:15:00.179
So he has this great idea and he's such a dreamer and he wants to

291
00:15:00.179 --> 00:15:03.000
write this story and then he's told straight away, no, that's

292
00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:03.600
absurd.

293
00:15:03.659 --> 00:15:04.740
No one's going to buy it.

294
00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:06.299
We're not doing it.

295
00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:07.379
He's really despondent.

296
00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:09.419
Then they find a way of making it work.

297
00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:12.360
Then there's that great scene in the cafe, where he's on top of

298
00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:14.460
the world, 3 cents a word, 3 cents a word.

299
00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:15.179
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

300
00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:17.700
And you're just like totally there with him, your tribe.

301
00:15:17.700 --> 00:15:20.159
And because Penny Johnson, Gerald is punching the air.

302
00:15:20.220 --> 00:15:22.320
It's the most triumphant moment ever.

303
00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:28.799
And then, obviously, that awful, brutal moment where Jimmy is

304
00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:33.000
killed and he is beaten to a pulp and it's so unpleasant to watch

305
00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:37.139
and really confronting in a way that Star Trek very rarely is.

306
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:37.919
Yeah.

307
00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:40.320
Making me feel so discomforted.

308
00:15:40.860 --> 00:15:43.139
And then afterwards, I'm like, oh, but he's going to get his hero

309
00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:43.500
moment.

310
00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:44.820
The story is going to be published.

311
00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:45.720
How amazing.

312
00:15:45.779 --> 00:15:47.879
And then that's torn away from him.

313
00:15:47.940 --> 00:15:51.179
Like, I was a mess watching this, you know?

314
00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:54.360
And Star Trek doesn't usually have this effect on me.

315
00:15:54.419 --> 00:15:55.559
No.

316
00:15:55.620 --> 00:16:00.960
That's the thing that we can't possibly experience firsthand. is

317
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:08.460
that experience of just the daily pressures and setbacks and the

318
00:16:08.460 --> 00:16:11.039
things that he has to think about.

319
00:16:11.100 --> 00:16:13.679
So he's a great genius and a great writer who doesn't get

320
00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:19.379
published because of all the pressures arrayed against him, just

321
00:16:19.379 --> 00:16:23.940
the daily pressures and how many different ones they are and all

322
00:16:23.940 --> 00:16:27.720
the different directions that they come from and just watching

323
00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:29.759
that experience.

324
00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:32.159
Do you know what I mean from the outside and having him tell that

325
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:37.200
story and having him talk about how incredibly dispiriting and

326
00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:42.299
ultimately kind of inevitable and how impossible those things are

327
00:16:42.299 --> 00:16:46.679
to kind of defeat in so many cases, like I think, you know, that's

328
00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:51.059
something that we need to hear, that we need people to tell us.

329
00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:58.320
For an hour, I am made to experience what it must be like to be

330
00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:00.299
made to be felt like you are the other.

331
00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:01.379
Yeah, yeah.

332
00:17:01.379 --> 00:17:03.120
And it's not nice at all.

333
00:17:03.179 --> 00:17:06.059
And I'm a gay man and you think I would experience it.

334
00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:06.839
I don't really.

335
00:17:06.900 --> 00:17:10.799
I haven't, you know, the wildlife's been quite kind to me in that

336
00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:11.160
respect.

337
00:17:11.220 --> 00:17:16.559
But, you know, looking from this lens, it's just awful.

338
00:17:16.619 --> 00:17:17.759
Yeah.

339
00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:21.420
But somehow, still a delightful episode of Star Trek.

340
00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:22.500
It's amazing.

341
00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:23.819
It is really properly amazing.

342
00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:24.359
All right.

343
00:17:24.420 --> 00:17:25.799
I think we go in do you think?

344
00:17:25.859 --> 00:17:27.000
Let's do it.

345
00:17:27.059 --> 00:17:27.839
Okay.

346
00:17:28.140 --> 00:17:33.839
Five, four, three, two, one and we're off.

347
00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:39.420
Like, there's an immediate reminder that we're in the middle of

348
00:17:39.420 --> 00:17:40.259
the Dominion war.

349
00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:41.759
Ah, yeah.

350
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:45.599
Exposition Central in it's team one.

351
00:17:47.700 --> 00:17:50.339
Oh, that looks horrible, isn't it?

352
00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:50.940
All those pads.

353
00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:56.700
Oh, so what happened to some guys did, blah, blah, blah.

354
00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:59.099
We get a lot of this at this point, don't we?

355
00:17:59.160 --> 00:17:59.700
Yeah.

356
00:17:59.700 --> 00:18:01.619
Patrol in the borders is dangerous.

357
00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:05.220
The jamadar are getting away with just murdering people, ad nause

358
00:18:05.220 --> 00:18:06.119
yeah, blah, blah.

359
00:18:06.180 --> 00:18:06.420
Yeah.

360
00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:10.319
But it means that the point of this scene is, isn't it?

361
00:18:10.380 --> 00:18:12.660
We retook the station, it was a moment of triumph.

362
00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:14.700
Everyone thought, well, that's it, you know?

363
00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:16.619
DS9's back on the tracks?

364
00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:17.880
No, okay, yeah.

365
00:18:17.940 --> 00:18:20.039
The war's still here and actually a lot of people are still

366
00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:20.339
dying.

367
00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:22.680
And they do make this point several times.

368
00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:25.019
You know, remember in the Palm Moonlight when you got all the

369
00:18:25.019 --> 00:18:25.980
lists on the wall.

370
00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:27.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

371
00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:30.180
But I think here, in that case, then it's kind of parallelling

372
00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:33.599
what Benny is going to go through as well, that moment of triumph

373
00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:35.400
and and then having it taken away.

374
00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:39.059
I think like having Brock Peters here is really great because that

375
00:18:39.059 --> 00:18:42.539
license, he licenses his appearance in the kind of dream sequence

376
00:18:42.539 --> 00:18:43.259
or whatever it is.

377
00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:46.259
I actually think that the least successful aspect of the episode

378
00:18:46.259 --> 00:18:53.400
is how it marries the 24th century thing with the story that's

379
00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:54.240
being told.

380
00:18:54.299 --> 00:18:58.019
And so this is a little bit like, you're going to hate me for

381
00:18:58.019 --> 00:18:58.500
saying it.

382
00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:04.380
These are the voyages. where we get an inset story that is

383
00:19:04.380 --> 00:19:09.000
supposed to inspire a character to make a decision.

384
00:19:09.059 --> 00:19:13.500
So the decision is, uh, am I going to give this up and do

385
00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:15.299
something else, right?

386
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:20.880
And at the end of the day, he says, no, I'm gonna, you know, do

387
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:21.539
the thing.

388
00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:27.660
But there's no real, very sensible line drawn between the 2

389
00:19:27.660 --> 00:19:28.200
stories.

390
00:19:28.259 --> 00:19:29.099
Do you know what I mean?

391
00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:33.180
I don't know exactly what it is about Benny. basically an excuse

392
00:19:33.180 --> 00:19:35.339
to go on. sort of 50s, isn't it?

393
00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:35.700
You know?

394
00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:36.420
That's right.

395
00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:39.839
And the other thing, but the other thing that I think they do is

396
00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:43.559
that they don't attempt to give us space reasons for him being in

397
00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:47.759
the 50s, it is a profits thing, I think.

398
00:19:47.819 --> 00:19:50.279
But there's no orb involved?

399
00:19:50.339 --> 00:19:54.420
No, and we we do think it's the profits at this point, but then I

400
00:19:54.420 --> 00:19:57.000
think we're supposed to think in shadows and symbols.

401
00:19:57.059 --> 00:19:57.960
It's a par Ray thing.

402
00:19:58.019 --> 00:20:03.720
It's ambiguous It is ambiguous. speak in mysterious ways.

403
00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:08.640
Well, I mean, what we we do get that sort of white background at

404
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:12.119
one point, that the profits, you know, that you encounter the

405
00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:15.599
property in, but I thought that was just a transitionary thing

406
00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:17.339
from the station to the road.

407
00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:20.400
Oh, yeah, but I think that they deliberately choose that in order

408
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:21.660
to evoke the profits.

409
00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:22.200
This.

410
00:20:22.259 --> 00:20:27.960
Look, it's Renee walking past the door of the office, enjoying the

411
00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:30.539
fact that he can have a facial expression in that scene.

412
00:20:31.980 --> 00:20:33.720
My god.

413
00:20:33.779 --> 00:20:35.039
I could actually act.

414
00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:41.759
There is one line in that scene I love, which is a way only your

415
00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:44.759
family or people close to you can talk to, is when Brock Peters

416
00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:46.920
goes, well, what are you going to do about it then?

417
00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:49.079
Straight to the point.

418
00:20:49.140 --> 00:20:52.559
At this point, though, the episode is playing out like your

419
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:53.640
average voyager.

420
00:20:53.700 --> 00:20:57.180
There's strange visions going on. you know, in our standard set.

421
00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:00.539
So you in a minute, you have Michael Dorn walking past, throwing a

422
00:21:00.539 --> 00:21:03.779
baseball in the air in slow motion in the baseball gear, although

423
00:21:03.779 --> 00:21:04.259
it looks great.

424
00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:06.420
Because it's these sets, you know.

425
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:10.259
Oh, I love how tactile they are.

426
00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:12.299
Penny, Johnson, Gerald, Mabry Brooks.

427
00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:15.240
She's always touches his face, stroking his beard, you know?

428
00:21:15.299 --> 00:21:16.440
Well, you would, wouldn't you?

429
00:21:16.500 --> 00:21:19.680
Well, we'll point out that interview again, you know, my husband

430
00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:20.700
gets smile.

431
00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:23.400
Look, that's a beautiful, beautiful smile.

432
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:27.240
Very jealous because I've got this gorgeous man, Avery Brooks, that

433
00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:29.339
I can act with every day on set.

434
00:21:29.460 --> 00:21:31.079
She goes, no, I say, good.

435
00:21:31.140 --> 00:21:32.099
I'm glad you're jealous.

436
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:33.420
He's gorgeous and he's mine.

437
00:21:35.220 --> 00:21:38.400
She's a woman who just knows her mind.

438
00:21:38.460 --> 00:21:38.880
I love it.

439
00:21:38.940 --> 00:21:43.140
See, we get that when he walks through.

440
00:21:43.259 --> 00:21:46.319
I mean, how did they get all those taxi cabs?

441
00:21:46.380 --> 00:21:47.819
Where the hell did they all come from?

442
00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:50.339
Well, it's New York, isn't it?

443
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:50.940
Is it New York?

444
00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:52.380
I don't know.

445
00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:54.660
Well, Paramount's not in New York, is it?

446
00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:58.019
No, no, no, no, but I mean, where are we?

447
00:21:58.079 --> 00:21:58.619
I don't know.

448
00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:00.539
Don't tell me they've left California.

449
00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:02.640
No, no, no.

450
00:22:02.700 --> 00:22:04.440
No, I mean, where's the story?

451
00:22:04.500 --> 00:22:06.900
Sorry, is there an outrageous suggestion?

452
00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:08.700
There's no way they've done that.

453
00:22:10.259 --> 00:22:13.259
Oh, so far, so the rapture.

454
00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:16.140
Cisco's having visions, you know, and he's in the same day a lot.

455
00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:18.779
Okay, and we even refer to the rapture, don't we?

456
00:22:19.140 --> 00:22:24.180
In typical Deep Says Night fashion where they say last year...

457
00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:27.299
You remember when I was having those visions about baseball?

458
00:22:28.980 --> 00:22:31.799
Is he going to need surgery again?

459
00:22:31.859 --> 00:22:33.240
Okay, we're covering all the bases now.

460
00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:34.740
So we're not doing that episode again.

461
00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:35.940
Yeah, yeah.

462
00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:38.700
Oh my god, hang on.

463
00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:40.319
Aaron Eisenberg in the scene.

464
00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:42.960
Yeah.

465
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:44.339
So you've got to buy that on that.

466
00:22:44.460 --> 00:22:46.140
He's so great.

467
00:22:46.259 --> 00:22:50.099
I think he's struggling with the accent a little bit, but...

468
00:22:50.099 --> 00:22:52.259
Oh, come on, he's having fun.

469
00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:55.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah, here he really is.

470
00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:55.920
Me?

471
00:22:55.980 --> 00:22:57.299
like war stories.

472
00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:59.759
Did you see Burt Lancaster?

473
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:01.200
And from here to eternity?

474
00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:07.200
So the great thing about Benny is how contained he is.

475
00:23:07.259 --> 00:23:10.680
And one of the reasons he's so contained is that he's consciously

476
00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:15.059
aware that his behaviour can be taken as offensive at any time.

477
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:18.420
And so he's really, really restrained and his body language and

478
00:23:18.420 --> 00:23:20.460
even in the way he expresses himself facially.

479
00:23:20.519 --> 00:23:23.940
But he was there, he's relaxing in front of Miles, who he knows.

480
00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:25.559
Albert.

481
00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:27.240
Albert.

482
00:23:27.299 --> 00:23:27.720
That's right.

483
00:23:27.779 --> 00:23:28.440
He's a robot.

484
00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:31.200
That's because he is a robot.

485
00:23:31.259 --> 00:23:32.880
Sorry, Is that?

486
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:33.839
Is he Amazon?

487
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:34.859
Asimov?

488
00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:35.940
Is that what that?

489
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:38.339
Like, he's called Albert Macklin?

490
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:38.819
Is he?

491
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:42.000
I like robots.

492
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:44.400
They're very efficient.

493
00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:46.680
Well, so funny.

494
00:23:46.740 --> 00:23:50.220
Oh, you're going to be so quoted in this, so prepare yourself, all

495
00:23:50.220 --> 00:23:50.460
right?

496
00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:51.359
Of course.

497
00:23:51.420 --> 00:23:53.099
Oh, great.

498
00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:54.180
I'll tell you what.

499
00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:55.619
It's an arresting opening though, right?

500
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:56.519
What the hell's going on?

501
00:23:56.579 --> 00:23:57.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

502
00:23:57.779 --> 00:24:00.599
So while we're doing the opening credits, I want to talk to you

503
00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:01.259
about a thing.

504
00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:05.339
So this is a thing that I was aware of vaguely, but I looked

505
00:24:05.339 --> 00:24:05.759
into.

506
00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:11.819
It's, um, a comic strip, a comic book called Weird Fantasy, a

507
00:24:11.819 --> 00:24:13.920
comic book called Weird Fantasy.

508
00:24:13.980 --> 00:24:18.779
And in issue 18 in 1953, there was a story called Judgement Day

509
00:24:18.779 --> 00:24:22.259
and an astronaut comes from Earth, from a sort of galactic

510
00:24:22.259 --> 00:24:28.259
alliance to a robot planet, to see whether they should be admitted

511
00:24:28.259 --> 00:24:29.460
into the alliance.

512
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:34.859
But the robots are orange and blue and they discriminate among one

513
00:24:34.859 --> 00:24:35.279
another.

514
00:24:35.339 --> 00:24:42.299
Um, and so he decides that they can't go uh, into the alliance.

515
00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:46.980
And then the final scene has him going back into his rocket ship

516
00:24:46.980 --> 00:24:50.940
taking his helmet off, and we discover that he's a black man.

517
00:24:50.940 --> 00:24:54.599
When was I written?

518
00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:56.640
1953.

519
00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:02.880
And all of the pushback that we get described here happens to

520
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:03.119
that.

521
00:25:03.180 --> 00:25:06.599
They didn't want, you know, they said, you can publish this, but

522
00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:09.420
it needs to be a white guy at the end of the thing.

523
00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:10.559
Do you know what I mean?

524
00:25:10.619 --> 00:25:12.299
Like, but it manages to get past.

525
00:25:12.299 --> 00:25:13.619
You've been aware of that, surely.

526
00:25:13.740 --> 00:25:17.160
Well, no, because that's the point of the episode.

527
00:25:17.220 --> 00:25:19.019
That's the point of the comic strip, isn't it?

528
00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:22.680
Like it's a black man in the future who is a representative, an

529
00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:26.400
astronaut who is representing the Galactic Alliance and assessing

530
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:30.779
someone else's fitness to join it, and he rejects it because they

531
00:25:30.779 --> 00:25:34.440
discriminate against one another on the colour of their outer

532
00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:34.980
shells.

533
00:25:34.980 --> 00:25:37.680
And, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

534
00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:38.700
And that was published.

535
00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:42.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it was a struggle to get published.

536
00:25:42.180 --> 00:25:47.579
And so I think that this obviously is inspired to something about

537
00:25:47.579 --> 00:25:47.700
that.

538
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:48.180
Oh, yeah.

539
00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:49.920
Wowsers.

540
00:25:49.980 --> 00:25:51.779
That's a great bit of trivia.

541
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:52.559
Yeah.

542
00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:57.599
So, so what I like about this too, is that this whole episode

543
00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:04.019
starts with this conflict between, um, what's this character

544
00:26:04.019 --> 00:26:08.640
called, Herbert, between Armand Schimmerman's Herbert and Pabst

545
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:13.799
who is played by Renee, and the argument is about donuts, and the

546
00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:17.819
guy whose editor is trying to stiff the writers by giving them

547
00:26:17.819 --> 00:26:20.099
stale donuts and he's quitting.

548
00:26:20.220 --> 00:26:25.019
That's a great comedy conflict over donuts, but it is eventually

549
00:26:25.019 --> 00:26:27.000
the same conflict they're going to have over race.

550
00:26:27.059 --> 00:26:28.559
You know what I mean?

551
00:26:28.619 --> 00:26:31.559
Well, and it's also a play on Cork and Odo.

552
00:26:31.619 --> 00:26:32.759
Yes, of course.

553
00:26:33.660 --> 00:26:35.099
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

554
00:26:35.099 --> 00:26:36.480
But completely different.

555
00:26:36.539 --> 00:26:38.220
Like the energy is so different.

556
00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:39.720
It is really different.

557
00:26:39.779 --> 00:26:43.799
So that it just never occurred to me. not just competent. character

558
00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:44.700
actors aren't they?

559
00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:46.140
that can handle this stuff.

560
00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:50.220
The only person who I think is a bit mannered is seen.

561
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:52.440
Yeah, actually.

562
00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:53.519
He saw that, right?

563
00:26:53.579 --> 00:26:55.259
Red made ready tea.

564
00:26:55.319 --> 00:26:57.299
What an appalling concept, you know?

565
00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:02.279
He doesn't quite know what's happening here too, because why he's

566
00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:06.900
you know, he's a brown man, as Avery said, in that quote that you

567
00:27:06.900 --> 00:27:09.900
mentioned earlier. and his English.

568
00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:11.220
Do you know what I mean?

569
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:14.880
And he doesn't seem to be subject to any of the racism that, do

570
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:15.420
you know what it?

571
00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:16.980
So it's, yeah.

572
00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:19.140
You can always count on changing her.

573
00:27:19.140 --> 00:27:21.119
What can I say?

574
00:27:21.180 --> 00:27:25.019
Too much of my sauerkraut that night. so funny.

575
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:31.019
A lonely little alien who's befriended by apathetic aliens who

576
00:27:31.019 --> 00:27:31.980
teach you how to smile.

577
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:35.940
It's so delightful, but then this picture hear the sexy picture.

578
00:27:35.940 --> 00:27:38.460
Honeymoon on Andorus.

579
00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:41.460
Yeah, she's got she's got nipples, though.

580
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:44.519
Like she's wearing a very thin, and you can see the nipples

581
00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:46.079
through her top, which is pretty funny.

582
00:27:46.140 --> 00:27:48.599
They just being menaced by a giant praying mantis.

583
00:27:48.660 --> 00:27:52.680
The picture, baby garbage, but the story will be art. will be

584
00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:54.000
art.

585
00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:59.220
Is there even more bouncing usual to the dialogue in this?

586
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:00.720
Yeah, I think so.

587
00:28:00.779 --> 00:28:02.819
So that is beautiful.

588
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:08.819
That picture of Deep Space 9 done in the style of a 1950s science

589
00:28:08.819 --> 00:28:13.559
fiction illustration is so beautiful, so good.

590
00:28:13.619 --> 00:28:17.880
And in fact, that's one of the reasons that that scene works later

591
00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:23.819
on when the police, you know, harass him and damage it is because

592
00:28:23.819 --> 00:28:27.839
the picture is so beautiful and because we know what it represents

593
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:28.319
as well.

594
00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:33.359
I have to say, um, Nano makes the most of her every line in this

595
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:33.779
as well.

596
00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:38.099
We look like writers, poor and needy and incredibly attractive.

597
00:28:38.700 --> 00:28:41.220
She sells every light.

598
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:44.460
I love the bit as well when we cut to Kira, which she's going on

599
00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:46.140
about strong women in science fiction.

600
00:28:46.380 --> 00:28:50.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

601
00:28:50.099 --> 00:28:52.619
A Negro with a typewriter.

602
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:54.180
Run to the hills.

603
00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:55.980
It's the end of civilisation.

604
00:28:56.220 --> 00:29:00.420
And then he's naming all of these Black Riders, and I think that's

605
00:29:00.420 --> 00:29:01.319
really, really great.

606
00:29:01.380 --> 00:29:03.420
This is 1953 or whatever.

607
00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:07.440
And he lists all of the, all of the African-American writers, you

608
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:11.099
know, famous literary figures.

609
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:12.480
Do you know what I mean?

610
00:29:12.539 --> 00:29:15.059
He gets to talk about the heritage and contribution of those

611
00:29:15.059 --> 00:29:16.079
people to Ryan.

612
00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:18.180
I wonder if Avery brought some of that with him, you know?

613
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:21.000
I do too, but I think...

614
00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:22.019
There's lots of little touches.

615
00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:24.180
You know the bit where he's walking down the street with all the

616
00:29:24.180 --> 00:29:25.619
kids and they're singing?

617
00:29:25.740 --> 00:29:28.559
Like, I just wonder if he brought all of that with him.

618
00:29:28.619 --> 00:29:30.240
And that's why he had to direct this.

619
00:29:30.299 --> 00:29:35.579
But again, that performance there where he lists the riders and

620
00:29:35.579 --> 00:29:38.519
then, you know, where he confronts Pabst there.

621
00:29:38.579 --> 00:29:41.880
And I talked about how physically restrained he is earlier, but he

622
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.059
is he's seething with rage in that scene.

623
00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:46.200
Do you know what I mean?

624
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:47.160
While being super aware.

625
00:29:47.220 --> 00:29:49.619
I mean, they can't afford to show it.

626
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:49.920
Yeah.

627
00:29:49.980 --> 00:29:51.299
This picture is aware.

628
00:29:51.299 --> 00:29:58.019
The arbitrary building. where the 2 police officers are just so

629
00:29:58.019 --> 00:30:03.000
horrible to him. and he's just got to take it, you know?

630
00:30:03.180 --> 00:30:06.839
And sort of smile and say, thank you very much for not arresting

631
00:30:06.839 --> 00:30:07.319
me today.

632
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:08.880
Yeah.

633
00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:14.940
And so that's 1953, but 70 years later, that's still a thing in

634
00:30:14.940 --> 00:30:16.380
America.

635
00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:17.160
Do you know what I mean?

636
00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:22.319
Like the issue of police violence against black people is more

637
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:25.259
urgent and more vivid now.

638
00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:28.740
Now, in particular that we have phones so that we can all see it

639
00:30:28.740 --> 00:30:31.920
happening and so that people can document it.

640
00:30:31.980 --> 00:30:34.740
That's what Shimmerman says, though, in all the interviews.

641
00:30:34.740 --> 00:30:39.000
He's holding up a mirror to us now and saying this is not on.

642
00:30:39.059 --> 00:30:42.539
But now in 2024 as well.

643
00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:46.140
You know, where you have one political party that denies that it's

644
00:30:46.140 --> 00:30:49.740
an issue or is okay with it if it is in America, you know.

645
00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:53.400
Like I think Star Trek likes to do this sort of thing, but they're

646
00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:54.779
usually quite safe about it.

647
00:30:54.839 --> 00:30:57.900
They really take a risky path here, don't they?

648
00:30:57.960 --> 00:30:58.859
Yeah.

649
00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:03.059
But I think it's less of an, I think it's less of a, like I think

650
00:31:03.059 --> 00:31:05.400
it's, if anything, more urgent an issue now.

651
00:31:05.460 --> 00:31:06.779
Do you know what I mean?

652
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:10.440
And not that black people haven't been aware of this the whole

653
00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:10.680
time.

654
00:31:10.740 --> 00:31:11.819
Do you know what I mean?

655
00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:14.460
That black people have not been aware that they have to be

656
00:31:14.460 --> 00:31:17.640
deferential to the police, that they that they have to do what we

657
00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:20.279
Avery do here all the time just every day.

658
00:31:20.339 --> 00:31:21.119
Do you know what I mean?

659
00:31:21.180 --> 00:31:25.559
I've actually, I've seen this TikTok videos recently of this exact

660
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:28.559
thing where they've been filmed, they're filming themselves being

661
00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:29.940
treated badly by the police.

662
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:31.079
Yeah, yeah.

663
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:35.519
And and the fact that, you know, those 2 police, and they're

664
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:37.859
slightly comedy police in a way, do you know what I mean?

665
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:43.740
It's Jeffrey and Mark, you know, kind of doing TV, political.

666
00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:45.359
Yeah, film police.

667
00:31:45.420 --> 00:31:48.839
And the only reason that they don't arrest him is they kind of go

668
00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:51.059
ah, we've got some some place to be in 15 minutes.

669
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:52.799
I can't be bothered and then they leave.

670
00:31:52.859 --> 00:31:57.180
The one no, the one sort of negative note I would have is the

671
00:31:57.180 --> 00:31:58.440
scene where they beat him.

672
00:31:58.500 --> 00:32:00.299
I wish they haven't put them in makeup.

673
00:32:00.779 --> 00:32:05.579
We cut to weigh in and do cut in makeup and it's just making it's

674
00:32:05.579 --> 00:32:07.140
adding a fancy element to it.

675
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:10.319
I almost can see why they're doing that because it's a bit on the

676
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:10.559
nose.

677
00:32:10.619 --> 00:32:12.240
Maybe it's a tone of down a bit.

678
00:32:12.299 --> 00:32:13.799
Yeah, but I agree.

679
00:32:13.859 --> 00:32:16.619
It still makes its point, but yeah.

680
00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:18.900
Yeah, well...

681
00:32:18.900 --> 00:32:20.519
See, this I like...

682
00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:21.539
We get a chance.

683
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:24.359
The camera goes across this beautifully dressed set and there's a

684
00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:27.599
jazz score playing and this just isn't white, the Star Trek we're

685
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:27.960
used to watching.

686
00:32:28.019 --> 00:32:31.740
Oh, yeah.

687
00:32:31.740 --> 00:32:34.319
We can we not set the Star Trek in the future anymore.

688
00:32:34.380 --> 00:32:35.819
It's so boring.

689
00:32:35.940 --> 00:32:37.440
Look how small it is.

690
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:39.480
Like he's got that room.

691
00:32:39.539 --> 00:32:42.299
It annoys me that he can't is that a...

692
00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:44.519
Yeah, anyway, his painting's crooked.

693
00:32:44.579 --> 00:32:51.000
But all of the books, like all of those books, and but it is, it's

694
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:51.660
so small.

695
00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:55.619
And like he's been there in the suit, being respectable, doing the

696
00:32:55.619 --> 00:32:58.559
right thing, trying not to kind of offend anyone.

697
00:32:58.619 --> 00:32:59.759
Do you know what I mean?

698
00:32:59.819 --> 00:33:03.240
trying to stay out of people's way, trying not to be a threat.

699
00:33:03.299 --> 00:33:07.380
You know, something that he's conscious of all the time. taking

700
00:33:07.380 --> 00:33:09.539
the milk out of the fridge and just putting it against your head

701
00:33:09.539 --> 00:33:10.079
to cool down.

702
00:33:10.140 --> 00:33:11.579
Isn't it good?

703
00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:13.140
I just love these little details.

704
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:15.059
Yeah, yeah.

705
00:33:16.740 --> 00:33:20.880
I remember reading a review about this at the time, saying, like

706
00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:25.559
can we not take Avery out of DS 9 and put him into more realistic

707
00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:29.099
dramas because he's just so great in this setting.

708
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:31.680
I think he's always great personally.

709
00:33:31.740 --> 00:33:32.759
Yeah, I do too.

710
00:33:32.819 --> 00:33:34.680
That image.

711
00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:37.680
Isn't that good?

712
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:40.079
I'm old enough to remember typewriters, just.

713
00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:44.700
My mother had a typewriter, and I just wanted something that had

714
00:33:44.700 --> 00:33:47.700
all those buttons on it, and so I actually taught myself to do

715
00:33:47.700 --> 00:33:50.579
typing with the book that she was teaching herself typing on.

716
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:53.700
There is something sort of dramatic about it, isn't it?

717
00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:54.420
It's great.

718
00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:55.619
Yeah.

719
00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:59.279
And now how he falls asleep.

720
00:33:59.339 --> 00:34:04.140
He misses the date and Penny Johnson comes in eliminated, isn't

721
00:34:04.140 --> 00:34:04.259
it?

722
00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:05.579
I thought it was in a second.

723
00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:06.960
Oh, is it?

724
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:08.159
I'm skipping ahead.

725
00:34:08.219 --> 00:34:09.179
I haven't seen her yet.

726
00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:09.780
Yeah, yeah.

727
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:11.519
Have we not?

728
00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:12.780
Oh, no, no, no.

729
00:34:12.780 --> 00:34:13.920
The best is yet to come then.

730
00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:15.059
Yeah.

731
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:22.920
Oh dear, that reflection on the... 25 years ago.

732
00:34:22.980 --> 00:34:25.380
Gullet and slack.

733
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:27.059
Oh, this?

734
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:28.440
Well, the boys singing.

735
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:34.139
Do, do, do, do, do.

736
00:34:34.260 --> 00:34:35.519
Yeah, this is adorable, is it?

737
00:34:35.579 --> 00:34:36.960
And I love that one as well.

738
00:34:37.019 --> 00:34:39.960
Like, I love that he's a little bit more relaxed here.

739
00:34:40.019 --> 00:34:43.380
He's still wearing a suit and tie and stuff, but he just seems a

740
00:34:43.380 --> 00:34:44.579
little bit more relaxed, I think.

741
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:47.519
Did I say that Sid was the only one that was mattered?

742
00:34:47.579 --> 00:34:51.119
I think Sirok is a little bit mattered, but I love it anyway.

743
00:34:51.179 --> 00:34:52.199
He's great.

744
00:34:52.739 --> 00:34:55.619
Hey, Benny, you want to buy a watch?

745
00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:57.059
You know, it's a great...

746
00:34:57.480 --> 00:34:59.880
He struggles with the accent a little bit too, I think.

747
00:34:59.940 --> 00:35:02.940
Oh, but Penny Johnson, Gerald.

748
00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:03.539
Come on now.

749
00:35:04.199 --> 00:35:06.599
It's lovely, isn't it?

750
00:35:06.659 --> 00:35:07.559
It's so nice.

751
00:35:07.619 --> 00:35:09.539
It's so beautiful.

752
00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:13.079
I think it helps that we've had a couple of seasons of them.

753
00:35:13.139 --> 00:35:17.519
I mean, their chemistry was instant, but, you know, it's just on

754
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:18.360
fire at this point.

755
00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:22.559
When you gonna ask me to get married, baby?

756
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:26.039
I love that too.

757
00:35:26.099 --> 00:35:29.579
Like the fact that, you know, that they need some more money

758
00:35:29.579 --> 00:35:31.500
before they can get married.

759
00:35:31.559 --> 00:35:35.400
And so he lives in this little tiny flat by himself and she, you

760
00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:36.780
know, does she leave with her parents?

761
00:35:36.780 --> 00:35:42.119
I don't know, she lives by herself, possibly, and here is big old

762
00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:46.199
Michael Dawn with, look at that trial.

763
00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:47.280
Oh, my God.

764
00:35:47.340 --> 00:35:48.900
Oh, he's gorgeous, isn't he?

765
00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:51.599
I love this relationship too.

766
00:35:51.659 --> 00:35:54.599
What, him and uh, Cassidy.

767
00:35:54.659 --> 00:35:55.139
Cassie.

768
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:56.760
Him and Cassidy is great.

769
00:35:56.820 --> 00:35:58.860
Like him and Cassidy is really funny.

770
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:00.599
Okay, an exchange later, where he goes.

771
00:36:00.659 --> 00:36:01.800
What are you doing till eight?

772
00:36:01.800 --> 00:36:04.440
And she goes, I don't know, but I'm not doing it with you.

773
00:36:05.699 --> 00:36:11.760
But I also love, you know, my heart belongs. to Benny and he goes

774
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:14.400
yeah, but I just think it's the waste, a waste of a very pretty

775
00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:17.159
heart, which I think is... doing that thing as well.

776
00:36:17.219 --> 00:36:19.739
They're doing the metaphors we normally get in Star Trek.

777
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:22.920
He goes, stretch free. you're out And then Michael Dawn goes, don't

778
00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:24.599
worry, I'll get another chance at the bat.

779
00:36:24.659 --> 00:36:25.980
Yeah, it's great.

780
00:36:25.980 --> 00:36:27.960
Because he's a ball, he's a baseball player.

781
00:36:28.019 --> 00:36:28.980
It's a drawer.

782
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:31.019
This is so important though, isn't it, that he is a bit of a

783
00:36:31.019 --> 00:36:36.539
celebrity. amongst his own people, but actually he's considered a

784
00:36:36.539 --> 00:36:38.940
total outlier amongst the white baseball players.

785
00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:42.239
So he's playing baseball in a white team.

786
00:36:42.300 --> 00:36:45.059
Like, he's not in a Negro league or anything like that.

787
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:49.800
Like he's playing baseball and they barely tolerate him even

788
00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:53.940
though he's a very good baseballer and he can't live anywhere

789
00:36:53.940 --> 00:36:54.300
else.

790
00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:56.099
He can't live in a white neighbourhood.

791
00:36:56.159 --> 00:36:57.059
They wouldn't tolerate that.

792
00:36:57.659 --> 00:37:00.300
Oh, it looks great though.

793
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:01.139
What a costume.

794
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:04.139
Yeah, I don't know about the wig either.

795
00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:06.539
I'm not a big fan of the wig, but like whatever.

796
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:10.619
Um, It helps, it helps as well.

797
00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:12.960
There's an established relationship between these 2 actors as

798
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:13.199
well.

799
00:37:13.260 --> 00:37:14.579
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

800
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:15.659
Yeah, yeah.

801
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:18.900
That helps sell why he's so heartbroken when Jimmy dies.

802
00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:20.219
I'll just say that to you.

803
00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:22.739
Hey man, why are you always trying to lecture me?

804
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:29.699
I'm not going to say the line, but there's a very, there's a very

805
00:37:29.699 --> 00:37:32.940
confronting line that Jimmy gets to say.

806
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:33.539
Oh, yeah, yeah.

807
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:37.500
Yeah, where he get, he uses the N word in the, in the, like the N

808
00:37:37.500 --> 00:37:38.519
word.

809
00:37:38.519 --> 00:37:39.659
Oh, shocks, that go through.

810
00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:41.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

811
00:37:41.099 --> 00:37:43.800
Yeah, no, but, you know, like, I think it's absolutely

812
00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:44.519
reasonable.

813
00:37:44.579 --> 00:37:50.760
And it's, you know, in a, it's being told, you know, set in, in an

814
00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:55.440
episode with a largely black cast where, um, it's directed by a

815
00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:56.519
black man, you know.

816
00:37:56.579 --> 00:38:01.440
But I think, like, again, too, what they managed to do by having a

817
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:05.159
range of people by not just having Benny, but by having Benny and

818
00:38:05.159 --> 00:38:11.519
Cassie and, you know, Jimmy and, um, I don't know what, uh, Willie

819
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:14.699
you know, like having those people, we see them all undergoing, you

820
00:38:14.699 --> 00:38:16.679
know, experiencing racism in their own ways.

821
00:38:16.739 --> 00:38:17.460
Oh my god.

822
00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:20.880
Oh my god, Terry...

823
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:23.099
She's got a word in her belly.

824
00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:26.820
That's interesting, but that's disgusting.

825
00:38:26.820 --> 00:38:27.960
Disgusting.

826
00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:33.239
She's doing a little voice, you know, like she goes, I really like

827
00:38:33.239 --> 00:38:34.139
science fiction.

828
00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:35.579
He goes, bless you, my child.

829
00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:36.719
The world needs more people are you.

830
00:38:36.780 --> 00:38:38.039
That's wonderful, is it?

831
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:41.280
It's the best thing I've read since the puppet masters.

832
00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:46.739
She's like, she don't get much, but she grabs hold of it.

833
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:48.840
It's wonderful, isn't it?

834
00:38:48.900 --> 00:38:49.679
That's a great role.

835
00:38:49.739 --> 00:38:53.159
And, you know, particularly since she's this sort of very sort of

836
00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:57.179
serene and self-possessed science officer and here she's just

837
00:38:57.179 --> 00:38:58.619
absolutely ditsy.

838
00:38:58.679 --> 00:38:59.760
Total bimbo.

839
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:07.260
I think the way Colomini plays that sort of, you can never

840
00:39:07.260 --> 00:39:08.280
remember his lines.

841
00:39:08.340 --> 00:39:11.340
That could be so annoying, but it's so endearing.

842
00:39:11.400 --> 00:39:13.440
Yeah, it's great, isn't it?

843
00:39:13.500 --> 00:39:15.000
Oh, that's awesome.

844
00:39:15.059 --> 00:39:15.420
Yes.

845
00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:22.019
So where, when, um, um, when Kay says, uh, you know, I like the

846
00:39:22.019 --> 00:39:25.860
Kira character, she's in Kira's outfit, and just for a second.

847
00:39:25.980 --> 00:39:29.460
Yeah, is that the 1st time we've had that bleed through, is that

848
00:39:29.460 --> 00:39:31.199
the 1st time?

849
00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:33.719
apart from the window, apart from the reflection in the window.

850
00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:34.739
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

851
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:35.159
Yeah.

852
00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:37.320
Oh here we go.

853
00:39:37.380 --> 00:39:38.340
You know I can't print it.

854
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:39.599
Yeah.

855
00:39:39.659 --> 00:39:42.239
Come on, Benny, he's a Negro captain.

856
00:39:42.300 --> 00:39:44.940
The head of a space station, for Christ's sake.

857
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:46.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

858
00:39:46.139 --> 00:39:49.260
Even though for Christ's sake, seems like that's, you don't get

859
00:39:49.260 --> 00:39:50.519
that in Star Trek, do you?

860
00:39:50.699 --> 00:39:52.800
Because no one swears like that in Star Trek.

861
00:39:52.860 --> 00:39:55.619
It's almost like they know all the rules are off just for one

862
00:39:55.619 --> 00:39:55.800
week.

863
00:39:55.860 --> 00:39:58.079
Yeah, it's pretty good, isn't it?

864
00:39:59.699 --> 00:40:01.380
Cool, sorry.

865
00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:07.860
So what I love about this is he is acting as if he has no choice.

866
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:08.760
Do you know what I mean?

867
00:40:08.820 --> 00:40:12.420
That there are racist forces beyond his control, and he would love

868
00:40:12.420 --> 00:40:15.719
to do this, but he can't. right?

869
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:21.300
And then Herb's response, you know, that's the most imbecilic

870
00:40:21.300 --> 00:40:25.139
attempt, I've heard, to rationalise personal cowardice.

871
00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:29.639
Um, you know, like, like, and he just nails it.

872
00:40:29.699 --> 00:40:31.739
You know, this guy's a fucking coward.

873
00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:36.659
He doesn't actually give a shit about Benny, um, and he will just

874
00:40:36.659 --> 00:40:39.239
roll over and do whatever the guy says.

875
00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:42.960
And it sort of plays out later on because when he fires him and

876
00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:45.539
tells him, there's no real regret in the performance.

877
00:40:45.539 --> 00:40:48.239
He's just saying, this is what's happening.

878
00:40:48.300 --> 00:40:48.719
Sorry.

879
00:40:51.780 --> 00:40:53.400
He writes about Roberts.

880
00:40:53.460 --> 00:40:54.659
That's because he is a robot.

881
00:40:54.719 --> 00:40:57.539
I'm interested in Negroes or whites, it's this robot.

882
00:40:58.199 --> 00:40:59.820
You're right.

883
00:40:59.820 --> 00:41:01.260
Assassimorphan.

884
00:41:04.380 --> 00:41:08.579
He's got the laws there on the on the desk.

885
00:41:10.019 --> 00:41:14.460
Look, and he even tries to offer you, you write a novella based on

886
00:41:14.460 --> 00:41:14.699
this.

887
00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:16.260
I'll give you the cover next time.

888
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:17.639
Anything, just get off this.

889
00:41:17.699 --> 00:41:18.960
Stop doing this.

890
00:41:19.019 --> 00:41:22.019
And then he does the 50 years.

891
00:41:22.019 --> 00:41:23.699
You can publish this in 50 years.

892
00:41:23.699 --> 00:41:27.539
That line about however long it takes for the human race to become

893
00:41:27.539 --> 00:41:28.500
colourblind.

894
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:32.639
And of course, it's much longer than 50 years, you know, like much

895
00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:33.059
longer.

896
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:38.159
Here we are 70 years later, right?

897
00:41:38.219 --> 00:41:39.900
So that's brutal.

898
00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:42.119
Initially, I thought, wow, he puts it at 50 years.

899
00:41:42.179 --> 00:41:44.579
That seems sort of unreasonable, but of course, you know, it's

900
00:41:44.579 --> 00:41:45.599
actually much longer than that.

901
00:41:45.659 --> 00:41:49.139
Although, you know, in 50 years time you do have this show, you do

902
00:41:49.139 --> 00:41:51.599
have deep space 9 on top. what I was about to say.

903
00:41:51.659 --> 00:41:54.300
Yeah, surely that proves that some steps have been made.

904
00:41:54.420 --> 00:41:55.860
Yeah, absolutely.

905
00:41:55.920 --> 00:41:57.119
No, no.

906
00:41:57.179 --> 00:42:00.000
And this is obviously pointing that out as well.

907
00:42:00.059 --> 00:42:01.739
Look, you know we've done this.

908
00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:03.179
Yeah.

909
00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:08.820
But I I love Jimmy and his criminality is because otherwise all he

910
00:42:08.820 --> 00:42:11.579
gets to do is be a shoeshine boy or wash dishes.

911
00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:12.659
Do you know what I mean?

912
00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:15.059
He has so few options open to him.

913
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:16.500
Yeah, there we go.

914
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:17.400
There's the N-word.

915
00:42:17.460 --> 00:42:19.920
Um, yeah, yeah.

916
00:42:21.059 --> 00:42:24.960
And all of these political discussions that they're having.

917
00:42:25.019 --> 00:42:30.719
Yeah, around, This is God's way of telling me to go into the

918
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:31.559
restaurant business.

919
00:42:35.460 --> 00:42:38.760
Oh, she goes, you don't have to give up writing altogether, you

920
00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:41.639
know, you can write something for the Amsterdam news. or some

921
00:42:41.639 --> 00:42:42.960
other Negro newspaper.

922
00:42:43.019 --> 00:42:44.519
Yeah, yeah.

923
00:42:44.579 --> 00:42:46.800
So I hadn't heard of the Amsterdam news, but obviously...

924
00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:50.579
Kind of in her own way segregated him herself or attempting to in

925
00:42:50.579 --> 00:42:50.940
a way.

926
00:42:51.059 --> 00:42:52.980
But she's, she's right.

927
00:42:53.039 --> 00:42:53.880
Isn't she right?

928
00:42:53.940 --> 00:42:55.139
Do you know what I mean?

929
00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:55.739
Like, she's right.

930
00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:57.840
Yeah, yeah.

931
00:42:57.900 --> 00:42:58.980
That's great.

932
00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:00.360
And then his reaction.

933
00:43:01.260 --> 00:43:03.300
He's like, I'm sorry?

934
00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:06.900
I didn't mean to frighten you, you know, in a way that would never

935
00:43:06.900 --> 00:43:07.079
talk.

936
00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:11.579
No, because he's like a sort of rather goofy, like kind of sweet

937
00:43:11.579 --> 00:43:13.079
goofy guy, Willie.

938
00:43:13.139 --> 00:43:14.099
He sort of adorable.

939
00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:18.059
And like I love that they have wharf in full Klingon outfit as

940
00:43:18.059 --> 00:43:18.300
well.

941
00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:20.400
Like, he's not in a Starfleet outfit.

942
00:43:20.460 --> 00:43:21.360
What are you doing till 10?

943
00:43:21.420 --> 00:43:22.920
Dawn says.

944
00:43:23.460 --> 00:43:27.840
It all says this is the best the best Star Trek episode he ever

945
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:28.320
worked on.

946
00:43:28.380 --> 00:43:30.960
And given, you know, he did a lot more a T engine.

947
00:43:31.019 --> 00:43:33.239
More than anyone else. ever.

948
00:43:33.300 --> 00:43:34.500
Yeah.

949
00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:35.460
Yeah.

950
00:43:35.460 --> 00:43:35.820
Yeah.

951
00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:41.039
Well, he didn't have to put the makeup on in his own hands on.

952
00:43:41.099 --> 00:43:46.199
But he says, because there's a wonderful 8 minute tiny documentary

953
00:43:46.199 --> 00:43:51.719
on the DVD set with some great little snippets of interviews and

954
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:54.719
Dawn just goes, my God, they threw so much at this.

955
00:43:54.780 --> 00:43:56.579
Why didn't we do a two-parter?

956
00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:58.920
I don't think this needed to be a two-parter, though.

957
00:43:58.980 --> 00:44:00.420
No.

958
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:02.400
Yeah, I can understand that though.

959
00:44:02.699 --> 00:44:07.019
You might get more scenes if that was the case, but yeah, yeah

960
00:44:07.019 --> 00:44:07.619
yeah, yeah.

961
00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:09.119
Another episode out of makeup.

962
00:44:09.179 --> 00:44:10.199
I don't know.

963
00:44:10.260 --> 00:44:12.480
I mean, who was it that said we could go to a series?

964
00:44:12.539 --> 00:44:16.380
Like, did some one of your quotes earlier was someone saying we

965
00:44:16.380 --> 00:44:18.780
could have done a whole series on this, one of the actors.

966
00:44:18.900 --> 00:44:20.880
Have you ever had that?

967
00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:24.119
Have you ever had that moment like he's got here where, you know

968
00:44:24.119 --> 00:44:26.699
the inspiration strikes and you're just so excited about the

969
00:44:26.699 --> 00:44:28.860
process of creating something?

970
00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:30.719
I think he captures that brilliantly.

971
00:44:30.780 --> 00:44:32.699
Oh, here we go.

972
00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:34.019
She's going to start stroking his head.

973
00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:35.639
Oh yeah.

974
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:37.440
Oh, no, she's kissing his head.

975
00:44:37.500 --> 00:44:40.500
Her husband's seething right now, watching this.

976
00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:42.960
How is work, Penny?

977
00:44:43.019 --> 00:44:44.579
She's like, I'm acting, darling.

978
00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:51.059
I'm just acting Oh, that's beautiful, isn't it?

979
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:56.760
But it's not like, it's not like in the future, in the, in DS9

980
00:44:56.760 --> 00:44:58.920
she's not doing this anyway, because he wear the Warriors.

981
00:44:58.980 --> 00:45:00.179
She's falling over him, you know?

982
00:45:01.019 --> 00:45:03.780
I really like that about this show.

983
00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:06.179
It's just how much the characters touch each other.

984
00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:10.139
It just suggests a familiarity immediately.

985
00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:10.800
Yeah.

986
00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:13.920
But so she's right.

987
00:45:13.980 --> 00:45:15.539
Is it?

988
00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:16.199
I don't know.

989
00:45:16.260 --> 00:45:21.300
Like because she as well has been taught just by the experiences

990
00:45:21.300 --> 00:45:25.920
of her daily life to reign her expectations in, to not expect

991
00:45:25.920 --> 00:45:27.300
anything too good.

992
00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:30.000
And that's the problem.

993
00:45:30.059 --> 00:45:33.780
So she's telling him, and turns out she's right.

994
00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:36.119
That he's not going to be successful as a writer.

995
00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:40.860
Oh, no, but I love a dreamer and you've got to have a dream.

996
00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:41.400
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

997
00:45:41.400 --> 00:45:42.840
When she says to him there.

998
00:45:42.900 --> 00:45:46.199
How about before we'll go, we'll take a spin on the dance floor

999
00:45:46.199 --> 00:45:48.719
and they start dancing down the floor.

1000
00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:51.539
And suddenly we're back at Deep Space 9.

1001
00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:55.079
It's times like these.

1002
00:45:55.139 --> 00:46:00.360
I wish we'd never heard of the dominion The transitions.

1003
00:46:00.420 --> 00:46:02.940
I think he does some really well Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1004
00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:04.019
Like, he doesn't do them too.

1005
00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:06.659
Obviously, the camera is like at a different distance and stuff

1006
00:46:06.659 --> 00:46:07.500
when we can't.

1007
00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:08.519
Do you know what I mean?

1008
00:46:08.579 --> 00:46:12.239
Like it's not just a, it's, it's a surprise, this bit where he

1009
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:14.099
falls over to the piano.

1010
00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:18.960
Wait, I've got to get to the PR. something dramatic to fall on.

1011
00:46:22.139 --> 00:46:23.880
Oh, well.

1012
00:46:25.079 --> 00:46:27.960
That is how you hold your partner.

1013
00:46:28.019 --> 00:46:28.380
Look at her.

1014
00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:30.599
It's beautiful, isn't it?

1015
00:46:30.659 --> 00:46:34.619
Old stock shop, New York, 1950s. wonderful.

1016
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:36.719
Have you lost your mind?

1017
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:42.179
The pace of this as well.

1018
00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:44.219
Watch the pace of the dialogue.

1019
00:46:44.280 --> 00:46:47.219
I mean, see, that's what I that's what I like.

1020
00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:47.940
Do you know what I mean?

1021
00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:53.639
You know, they're so such a range of things that he experiences in

1022
00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:55.019
quite a short amount of time.

1023
00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:58.440
There's a wonderful quote from Renee.

1024
00:46:58.500 --> 00:47:02.400
When Ira Bear very tentatively came up to him and said, you know

1025
00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:04.079
I've got this role for you in this episode.

1026
00:47:04.139 --> 00:47:07.079
He goes, but you saw I've got to be the massive racist.

1027
00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:10.860
And he said, well, he goes, send me the script.

1028
00:47:10.920 --> 00:47:12.480
And so he got the script.

1029
00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:17.340
And I was like, even more tentatively approaching him going, is

1030
00:47:17.340 --> 00:47:17.940
that okay?

1031
00:47:18.059 --> 00:47:20.519
And he went, Ira, I'm a character actor.

1032
00:47:20.579 --> 00:47:22.320
This is a great script.

1033
00:47:22.380 --> 00:47:23.760
Of course, I want to do it.

1034
00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:25.079
Yeah.

1035
00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:28.500
You know, I think I think actors love playing the bad guy.

1036
00:47:29.280 --> 00:47:37.860
And so here we have, we here we have Isaac Asimov. we have Albert

1037
00:47:37.860 --> 00:47:41.219
making the suggestion that we make Deep Space 9 season one a

1038
00:47:41.219 --> 00:47:41.519
dream.

1039
00:47:41.579 --> 00:47:43.500
So there's seven.

1040
00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:45.599
There's a lot of people that wish that was the case, you know?

1041
00:47:45.659 --> 00:47:52.019
Well, so we have the 1st the 1st story has 6 sequels.

1042
00:47:52.260 --> 00:47:53.460
Yeah.

1043
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:57.780
So that's the 7 series of Deep Say nine. isn't it?

1044
00:47:57.840 --> 00:47:58.260
That's right.

1045
00:47:58.260 --> 00:48:00.300
You know, this is... pointed out the whole Dominion.

1046
00:48:00.300 --> 00:48:01.500
I know that they're going to seven.

1047
00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:02.099
Yeah.

1048
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:07.739
And so if we make series, if we make the 1st one, uh, like a black

1049
00:48:07.739 --> 00:48:13.980
man in the present day dreaming about the future where people like

1050
00:48:13.980 --> 00:48:20.519
him can be, uh, you know, um, station captains or whatever, is is

1051
00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:21.119
that okay?

1052
00:48:21.179 --> 00:48:21.960
Can we do that?

1053
00:48:22.019 --> 00:48:24.420
And they kind of go, well, what about the sequels?

1054
00:48:24.420 --> 00:48:26.579
And we kind of go, well, we'll work it out.

1055
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:29.639
But that, they kind of go with that and then that comes back at

1056
00:48:29.639 --> 00:48:34.679
the end in a way that I don't think is, they don't properly, fully

1057
00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:35.219
commit to.

1058
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:39.059
And so I don't think that works, but we're going to fully commit

1059
00:48:39.059 --> 00:48:39.840
to it, weren't they?

1060
00:48:39.900 --> 00:48:43.139
Because They were going to do that taxi on what you leave behind

1061
00:48:43.139 --> 00:48:47.699
of Benny Russell closing the book on the thing and the whole thing

1062
00:48:47.699 --> 00:48:52.320
had been what he'd written, but understandably they didn't go for

1063
00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:52.500
that.

1064
00:48:52.739 --> 00:48:57.840
Hang on, Nathan. having it a green, having it a dream, guts the

1065
00:48:57.840 --> 00:48:58.079
story.

1066
00:48:58.139 --> 00:49:01.199
Actually, it kind of does.

1067
00:49:01.260 --> 00:49:04.440
But isn't that what this is exactly what this story is telling

1068
00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:04.619
right?

1069
00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:08.280
Well, yeah, it is telling that story, isn't it?

1070
00:49:08.340 --> 00:49:11.579
So, but and it doesn't gut the story in a way because it's still

1071
00:49:11.579 --> 00:49:12.179
the story.

1072
00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:13.199
Do you know what I mean?

1073
00:49:13.260 --> 00:49:16.860
Like if it's not a dream, it's still only a story.

1074
00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:20.340
So it's that thing that I say about collapsing those levels.

1075
00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:23.519
You know, like if you, like a flashback is still part of the

1076
00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:25.619
action, a dream is still part of the action.

1077
00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:27.059
So it doesn't quite gut the story.

1078
00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:29.099
I think it makes it a bit more on the nose.

1079
00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:33.480
Like, I think it, yeah, like, if it's a story about a black man

1080
00:49:33.480 --> 00:49:37.440
who is just the, you know, the captain of a station, but it's not

1081
00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:40.619
essentially about that, but we can't put it in unless it's like a

1082
00:49:40.619 --> 00:49:45.179
black person, you know, more of a social commentary.

1083
00:49:45.239 --> 00:49:48.780
Yeah, and maybe, I don't know, maybe that makes a story better.

1084
00:49:48.840 --> 00:49:50.460
Look at all this.

1085
00:49:50.579 --> 00:49:52.800
I know it's lavish, isn't it?

1086
00:49:52.860 --> 00:49:55.320
It's amazing Instrument.

1087
00:49:55.320 --> 00:50:01.619
It's extras all dressed up in music. and you've got a gorgeous

1088
00:50:01.619 --> 00:50:04.019
penny in their costumes, dancing through the streets.

1089
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:10.739
I know. it's just tremendous I'd be happy just to spend my life Oh

1090
00:50:10.739 --> 00:50:11.579
he's got a lovely voice.

1091
00:50:11.699 --> 00:50:15.719
That tenor voice, that beautiful tenor voice.

1092
00:50:15.780 --> 00:50:18.599
Why didn't he sing more often in this show?

1093
00:50:18.659 --> 00:50:19.860
Wow.

1094
00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:22.980
You saw how upset people got when he sung once, right?

1095
00:50:23.699 --> 00:50:27.599
It's so bad. hate those people.

1096
00:50:27.900 --> 00:50:31.500
We just, we missed it because we were talking, but the bit in the

1097
00:50:31.500 --> 00:50:37.079
cafe where Cassie is getting so excited because he's, he's, oh, my

1098
00:50:37.079 --> 00:50:38.159
my story's been published.

1099
00:50:38.219 --> 00:50:41.699
Man, just the high of that scene is so well played.

1100
00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:45.780
And the red dress, like she's got in the red dress in order to go

1101
00:50:45.780 --> 00:50:46.980
out, we're going out to celebrate.

1102
00:50:47.039 --> 00:50:50.340
It comes religion, looks to spoil everyone's good time.

1103
00:50:50.940 --> 00:50:54.719
Yeah, so the pa, like rating his pa.

1104
00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:58.619
Yeah, that's...

1105
00:50:58.619 --> 00:51:01.079
I put the spare, walk arm in arm.

1106
00:51:01.139 --> 00:51:03.360
Although he's got such a great voice for it though, isn't he?

1107
00:51:03.480 --> 00:51:07.019
Oh, yeah, Brock Peters is fantastic and the face and everything.

1108
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:10.739
Like, he's so good. comes out of the shadows like a spectre.

1109
00:51:10.800 --> 00:51:11.940
Yeah, yeah.

1110
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:13.860
Oh this bit is so tough.

1111
00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:16.260
I mean, look at the blood there.

1112
00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:17.699
Yeah.

1113
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:20.039
But I mean, police still do that now.

1114
00:51:20.099 --> 00:51:25.260
It's, it's, it's his reaction when he just says he was breaking

1115
00:51:25.260 --> 00:51:26.099
into a car.

1116
00:51:26.219 --> 00:51:29.159
Like you shot him because he was breaking into a car.

1117
00:51:29.219 --> 00:51:31.500
And they say, yeah, stand back.

1118
00:51:31.559 --> 00:51:34.320
Like it's the most natural thing in the world. that.

1119
00:51:34.380 --> 00:51:36.599
That, it's just...

1120
00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:41.039
Oh, that's so...

1121
00:51:41.039 --> 00:51:43.500
But having, we know why he's losing his shit.

1122
00:51:43.559 --> 00:51:44.460
Do you know what I mean?

1123
00:51:44.519 --> 00:51:48.480
Because this is the like the pressure that he's under all the

1124
00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:48.960
time.

1125
00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:52.199
But do you know what really gets me?

1126
00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:54.000
One is the POV shots.

1127
00:51:54.059 --> 00:51:55.920
So we're literally being beaten up in this scene.

1128
00:51:55.980 --> 00:51:57.239
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1129
00:51:57.239 --> 00:52:02.519
And two, it's the cuts to the people watching. showing no surprise

1130
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:03.480
that is happening.

1131
00:52:03.539 --> 00:52:04.800
No, that's right.

1132
00:52:04.920 --> 00:52:08.760
A series of black people like on, on sort of, um, you know, fire

1133
00:52:08.760 --> 00:52:13.920
escapes and balconies and stuff, watching this happen, again

1134
00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:14.400
clearly.

1135
00:52:14.460 --> 00:52:17.340
Yeah, oh, just awful.

1136
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:19.079
But brilliant telly.

1137
00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:21.960
I like this too.

1138
00:52:22.019 --> 00:52:25.619
So they haven't gone too heavy on the, like, bruise makeup or

1139
00:52:25.619 --> 00:52:28.019
anything in some weeks, of course, yeah.

1140
00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:31.260
Yeah, but they've decided to make some weeks pass.

1141
00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:35.880
But there's a kind of, like, don't you think as she's putting the

1142
00:52:35.880 --> 00:52:38.460
clothes on, she's being careful not to hurt him.

1143
00:52:38.519 --> 00:52:42.059
Like she knows that there's a real tentative about.

1144
00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:46.559
Yeah, he's flinching a bit because like they're just conveying

1145
00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:50.340
through acting that he's still in pain and it's not just the

1146
00:52:50.340 --> 00:52:52.260
stick.

1147
00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:57.119
I mean, he sort of hangs his head as she puts the sunglasses on.

1148
00:52:57.179 --> 00:52:59.880
He's really retreated into himself even further.

1149
00:52:59.940 --> 00:53:01.260
So we saw him initially.

1150
00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:06.780
Like, easy to injured to dress quite as naturally as he did

1151
00:53:06.780 --> 00:53:07.320
before.

1152
00:53:07.380 --> 00:53:11.820
He can't dress in the suit, you know, so he's not as well dressed

1153
00:53:11.820 --> 00:53:12.420
as he was.

1154
00:53:13.019 --> 00:53:16.739
I see now. performance in this scene.

1155
00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:18.300
It's so wrong.

1156
00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:22.739
Apparently so he puts so much into it that when he went down, when

1157
00:53:22.739 --> 00:53:27.360
he breaks down, he couldn't get up for ages, like he was just lost

1158
00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:28.920
in the moment, in the emotion of it.

1159
00:53:31.980 --> 00:53:36.000
Oh, Albert sold a novel, apparently.

1160
00:53:36.119 --> 00:53:37.920
Oh, let me guess. robots.

1161
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:42.659
One else, see sense?

1162
00:53:43.380 --> 00:53:47.639
So there's still a few moments for humour here, but oh, yeah.

1163
00:53:47.639 --> 00:53:50.940
What's, what's, it's so interesting is that for the most part

1164
00:53:50.940 --> 00:53:51.360
you're right.

1165
00:53:51.420 --> 00:53:53.340
Avery's been contained throughout the episode.

1166
00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:57.179
I think to make this land as strong as it does.

1167
00:53:57.239 --> 00:54:01.199
But even now, when he 1st finds out about the paper, the

1168
00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:01.679
magazine.

1169
00:54:01.739 --> 00:54:03.900
He's sort of calm initially.

1170
00:54:03.960 --> 00:54:07.980
And I thought, no, no, you've got to be angry about this, and then

1171
00:54:07.980 --> 00:54:09.059
he just loses it.

1172
00:54:09.780 --> 00:54:11.579
Yeah, yeah.

1173
00:54:12.900 --> 00:54:18.719
Yeah, it's just that that accumulation of things in every scene is

1174
00:54:18.719 --> 00:54:20.280
in some way humiliated.

1175
00:54:21.179 --> 00:54:24.599
And then the reaction is like, if you don't stop, I'm going to

1176
00:54:24.599 --> 00:54:25.079
call the police.

1177
00:54:25.139 --> 00:54:26.280
Yeah, yeah.

1178
00:54:26.280 --> 00:54:29.219
We know what treatment he's going to get.

1179
00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:30.000
Yeah that's right.

1180
00:54:30.059 --> 00:54:32.820
Yeah, because he is a massive, horrible racist.

1181
00:54:32.880 --> 00:54:37.139
You know, he's he doesn't fight for Benny because he doesn't

1182
00:54:37.139 --> 00:54:37.800
really care.

1183
00:54:37.860 --> 00:54:41.460
I just can't imagine being caged like that and not being able to

1184
00:54:41.460 --> 00:54:42.780
just be yourself.

1185
00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:43.860
Yeah.

1186
00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:44.400
Yeah.

1187
00:54:44.460 --> 00:54:45.539
No, it's a...

1188
00:54:45.539 --> 00:54:49.440
And I think it's...

1189
00:54:50.579 --> 00:54:54.659
There's a so someone said that somewhere on the set.

1190
00:54:54.719 --> 00:55:01.440
There was a note from perhaps to herb saying no one will ever

1191
00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:04.980
believe that a cheerleader would be able to fight vampires and he

1192
00:55:04.980 --> 00:55:06.300
noticed.

1193
00:55:07.619 --> 00:55:10.019
There are some notes on the wall.

1194
00:55:10.139 --> 00:55:11.820
Yeah, yeah.

1195
00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:16.500
This is the point where everyone's gone, my God, it's him from

1196
00:55:16.500 --> 00:55:17.039
Buffy.

1197
00:55:17.099 --> 00:55:18.539
All this time.

1198
00:55:18.599 --> 00:55:21.360
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right because he's out of

1199
00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:21.719
makeup.

1200
00:55:22.199 --> 00:55:24.719
Don't tell me what I know.

1201
00:55:24.780 --> 00:55:27.059
Apparently in this scene as well.

1202
00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:28.380
Great, isn't he?

1203
00:55:28.440 --> 00:55:33.179
Renee and Avery came to blows because they both really wanted to

1204
00:55:33.179 --> 00:55:37.440
play this scene to the hill and they kind of weren't in sympatico

1205
00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:40.500
with what they were doing and they got there, but they had a

1206
00:55:40.500 --> 00:55:43.679
blistering row on the set while making it.

1207
00:55:43.739 --> 00:55:45.000
Right, right.

1208
00:55:46.380 --> 00:55:50.099
Oh, even when he says, you can't fire me, I quit.

1209
00:55:50.159 --> 00:55:51.480
It just feels like a defeat.

1210
00:55:51.539 --> 00:55:54.420
Yeah, yeah, but that's that's, yeah.

1211
00:55:54.480 --> 00:55:56.219
Yeah.

1212
00:55:57.179 --> 00:55:59.340
Try to stay calm.

1213
00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:00.239
No, fuck you.

1214
00:56:00.300 --> 00:56:02.099
Yeah, and all of that too.

1215
00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:03.059
Do you know what I mean?

1216
00:56:03.119 --> 00:56:06.780
It is and the calm never got me a damn thing is exactly right

1217
00:56:06.780 --> 00:56:09.480
because that's what we've seen him doing the entire time.

1218
00:56:09.539 --> 00:56:14.639
That's what we've seen him just absolute self-control all the

1219
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:14.940
time.

1220
00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:17.880
Oh, Jesus Christ, when he starts crying.

1221
00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:19.380
Yeah.

1222
00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:21.659
I mean, this is some serious acting.

1223
00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:25.079
I'm a human being, damn it.

1224
00:56:27.780 --> 00:56:31.800
I mean, I've heard some people criticise when he starts going, you

1225
00:56:31.800 --> 00:56:34.619
know, you cannot destroy, and I do.

1226
00:56:34.679 --> 00:56:35.880
But that's just the way he acts.

1227
00:56:35.940 --> 00:56:36.780
I'm sorry, get over it.

1228
00:56:36.840 --> 00:56:39.119
Yeah, no, that's that's him too.

1229
00:56:39.179 --> 00:56:43.860
And like there's something odd about what he's saying too.

1230
00:56:43.860 --> 00:56:46.139
And...

1231
00:56:46.199 --> 00:56:48.000
Do you know what I mean?

1232
00:56:48.059 --> 00:56:50.699
Like what he's actually saying it doesn't quite make sense and

1233
00:56:50.699 --> 00:56:53.820
because he's losing it at this point.

1234
00:56:53.880 --> 00:56:56.039
Look at the tears on his face.

1235
00:56:56.099 --> 00:56:57.300
No, no, no.

1236
00:56:57.360 --> 00:56:57.960
I know.

1237
00:56:58.320 --> 00:57:01.139
I like it when he implores them as well.

1238
00:57:01.260 --> 00:57:02.519
Do you hear what I'm telling you?

1239
00:57:02.579 --> 00:57:06.360
The ancient knowledge line is so strange.

1240
00:57:06.420 --> 00:57:09.300
It's so strange, that's ancient knowledge.

1241
00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:10.199
What is that?

1242
00:57:10.260 --> 00:57:11.579
I love it.

1243
00:57:11.639 --> 00:57:13.920
It's...

1244
00:57:13.980 --> 00:57:15.239
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1245
00:57:15.300 --> 00:57:16.079
That's it.

1246
00:57:16.139 --> 00:57:16.980
Yeah.

1247
00:57:16.980 --> 00:57:18.360
Oh, fucking hell.

1248
00:57:18.420 --> 00:57:19.619
Oh, yeah.

1249
00:57:20.280 --> 00:57:27.360
And it is like, I just don't think it's possible to say to Avery.

1250
00:57:27.420 --> 00:57:30.900
I think you should have rained that in a bit because this...

1251
00:57:30.900 --> 00:57:31.800
I don't think he should have done.

1252
00:57:31.860 --> 00:57:38.159
No, I don't either, that this is him writing about experience. you

1253
00:57:38.159 --> 00:57:43.260
know, him in a TV show that he's directing and he knows what this

1254
00:57:43.260 --> 00:57:47.579
lived experience is like, even though he's living decades later.

1255
00:57:47.639 --> 00:57:51.780
He knows enough about what it's like to experience that kind of

1256
00:57:51.780 --> 00:57:52.860
constant pressure.

1257
00:57:54.480 --> 00:57:57.539
Imagine people watching this that have gone through this.

1258
00:57:57.599 --> 00:58:01.559
Like, just at that moment when he's so angry, you know, going, yeah

1259
00:58:01.559 --> 00:58:02.159
I get it.

1260
00:58:02.460 --> 00:58:04.320
Yeah, yeah.

1261
00:58:04.619 --> 00:58:08.219
That that is the sort of intensity.

1262
00:58:08.760 --> 00:58:11.519
Is it anywhere else in Star Trek?

1263
00:58:11.579 --> 00:58:12.960
That level of intensity?

1264
00:58:13.019 --> 00:58:13.980
Yeah, yeah.

1265
00:58:14.039 --> 00:58:15.960
It's pretty, it is pretty amazing.

1266
00:58:16.019 --> 00:58:19.320
Maybe they're probably a couple of times in Curtman Trek

1267
00:58:19.320 --> 00:58:19.559
probably.

1268
00:58:20.579 --> 00:58:21.960
Yeah.

1269
00:58:22.019 --> 00:58:22.679
Yeah.

1270
00:58:22.739 --> 00:58:24.000
Not always successfully.

1271
00:58:24.960 --> 00:58:27.900
Don't you know, brother Benny?

1272
00:58:28.139 --> 00:58:31.739
You are the dreamer and the dream.

1273
00:58:32.159 --> 00:58:35.340
So this is the bit that shoots me a little bit.

1274
00:58:35.460 --> 00:58:41.699
You know, um, there's an episode of Barfy.

1275
00:58:41.760 --> 00:58:43.500
Oh, yeah, and like here we go.

1276
00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:47.940
We're travelling through in warp in the in the ambulance.

1277
00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:49.320
Oh, now we're back on the station.

1278
00:58:49.440 --> 00:58:51.360
Boo.

1279
00:58:52.679 --> 00:58:54.480
Yeah, that's right.

1280
00:58:54.599 --> 00:58:57.000
Do you remember the episode of Buffy?

1281
00:58:57.059 --> 00:59:00.539
like in season 7 where it turns out that Buffy, like Joyce is

1282
00:59:00.539 --> 00:59:02.219
still alive and Buffy's just insane.

1283
00:59:02.340 --> 00:59:03.300
She's gone.

1284
00:59:03.300 --> 00:59:04.019
That's normal again.

1285
00:59:04.079 --> 00:59:04.860
She's been six.

1286
00:59:04.920 --> 00:59:05.340
A great episode.

1287
00:59:05.400 --> 00:59:06.599
Se six, normal again.

1288
00:59:06.659 --> 00:59:07.440
Yeah.

1289
00:59:07.500 --> 00:59:12.059
And there was some, you know, they were thinking about whether

1290
00:59:12.059 --> 00:59:15.239
they were going to make that the framing story and there is even

1291
00:59:15.239 --> 00:59:20.159
an indication in that episode that the whole show is that... ends

1292
00:59:20.159 --> 00:59:21.059
with...

1293
00:59:21.179 --> 00:59:24.119
Oh no, we've lost her and the camera comes out of the asylum and

1294
00:59:24.119 --> 00:59:24.780
that's the end of it.

1295
00:59:24.840 --> 00:59:26.340
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1296
00:59:26.400 --> 00:59:27.059
So that's it.

1297
00:59:27.119 --> 00:59:28.320
She's like in that.

1298
00:59:28.380 --> 00:59:32.219
So, so, is that a bit of a betrayal of your audience, though?

1299
00:59:32.280 --> 00:59:35.460
Like, no, that have investigated.

1300
00:59:35.460 --> 00:59:37.079
I still... know what you're going to say.

1301
00:59:39.239 --> 00:59:43.980
But I don't think, and I, I don't, I think that that's bleak and

1302
00:59:43.980 --> 00:59:45.659
series 6 of Buffy is really bleak.

1303
00:59:45.780 --> 00:59:51.539
I think the idea, like, does the idea that it is a black man in

1304
00:59:51.539 --> 00:59:57.539
1953 dreaming this, which was what was suggested, wasn't it, in

1305
00:59:57.539 --> 01:00:03.840
the, in the kind of uh, magazine offices, is that good or bad?

1306
01:00:03.900 --> 01:00:10.500
And if, if you want to do it, do you want to have this character

1307
01:00:10.500 --> 01:00:13.980
these characters just here talking about it in the sort of

1308
01:00:13.980 --> 01:00:18.119
traditional no subtext in Star Trek kind of way?

1309
01:00:18.179 --> 01:00:19.139
Do you know what I mean?

1310
01:00:19.199 --> 01:00:22.800
They can't do it subtly, they can't come back to Benny, you know

1311
01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:27.780
like they can't, like, I think maybe it undermines the Benny story

1312
01:00:27.780 --> 01:00:33.119
that we've just read to have him successfully tell the story.

1313
01:00:33.840 --> 01:00:35.760
Do you know what I mean?

1314
01:00:35.820 --> 01:00:37.739
Like somehow this story gets told.

1315
01:00:37.800 --> 01:00:39.539
I don't know, I don't know.

1316
01:00:39.599 --> 01:00:42.119
I don't quite know what should have been done.

1317
01:00:42.179 --> 01:00:45.000
They can't re-bake a decision in this final scene.

1318
01:00:45.059 --> 01:00:46.500
I was like, what are they trying to tell me?

1319
01:00:46.619 --> 01:00:49.679
They're trying to explain what this is all about and they don't

1320
01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:52.739
want to explain what this was all about because they want it a bit

1321
01:00:52.739 --> 01:00:53.340
ambiguous.

1322
01:00:53.400 --> 01:00:57.539
And I just think, I don't think this conversation helps at all, and

1323
01:00:57.539 --> 01:00:58.860
it's a bit too on the nose.

1324
01:00:58.920 --> 01:00:59.940
Do you know what I mean?

1325
01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:02.940
Like, what does that, what would it mean to say, what if we were

1326
01:01:02.940 --> 01:01:04.980
all just kind of fictional characters?

1327
01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:06.539
We're all fixing.

1328
01:01:06.599 --> 01:01:08.039
Well, and then if...

1329
01:01:08.039 --> 01:01:10.739
If they had gone with that with what you leave behind, it's like

1330
01:01:10.739 --> 01:01:14.099
oh, okay, so I know it's not real and we're not going to have that

1331
01:01:14.099 --> 01:01:14.639
conversation again.

1332
01:01:14.699 --> 01:01:18.119
But like, I like to think that in the future, yes, this would

1333
01:01:18.119 --> 01:01:21.059
happen and there would be a black man in charge of this stay

1334
01:01:21.059 --> 01:01:21.480
station.

1335
01:01:21.539 --> 01:01:23.699
It's a sensitive man and a wonderful guy.

1336
01:01:24.059 --> 01:01:27.480
And then at the end of the show, they say, actually, no, that

1337
01:01:27.480 --> 01:01:28.019
didn't happen.

1338
01:01:28.019 --> 01:01:30.960
It was all in the mind of someone hoping it would happen.

1339
01:01:31.019 --> 01:01:34.260
I kind of think that ruins the idea of it.

1340
01:01:34.320 --> 01:01:37.260
Yeah, maybe, maybe. don't know.

1341
01:01:37.320 --> 01:01:40.679
But so yeah, it's a bit of a bum note to end an incredible episode

1342
01:01:40.679 --> 01:01:41.159
on.

1343
01:01:41.219 --> 01:01:42.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1344
01:01:42.420 --> 01:01:43.920
Do you know what I think of?

1345
01:01:43.980 --> 01:01:48.960
Like, this is obviously vastly celier episode and more lightweight

1346
01:01:48.960 --> 01:01:49.500
one.

1347
01:01:49.559 --> 01:01:54.599
It's Shipping a Bottle in Star Trek the Next Generation, where we

1348
01:01:54.599 --> 01:02:01.079
end it asking a fairly similar question where, you know, is it

1349
01:02:01.079 --> 01:02:05.460
perhaps we ourselves are just part of a complex simulation playing

1350
01:02:05.460 --> 01:02:10.800
out in a device sat on someone's table, which of course they are

1351
01:02:10.800 --> 01:02:13.500
and data kind of thinks.

1352
01:02:13.559 --> 01:02:17.159
Is it data he thinks twice and does it end program and program and

1353
01:02:17.159 --> 01:02:18.179
then we go out to the credit?

1354
01:02:18.239 --> 01:02:23.280
And so that is that is the show acknowledging that it's a TV show

1355
01:02:23.340 --> 01:02:25.500
which is kind of fun.

1356
01:02:25.559 --> 01:02:27.360
And I think maybe you're right.

1357
01:02:27.420 --> 01:02:30.480
I don't think having Benny dream this.

1358
01:02:30.539 --> 01:02:31.920
I don't think helps.

1359
01:02:31.980 --> 01:02:33.719
I don't think it comments on anything.

1360
01:02:34.079 --> 01:02:36.780
Of course you can't do the end program thing.

1361
01:02:36.840 --> 01:02:39.119
What you're going to do, Bashir, go, war, no wonder I was so

1362
01:02:39.119 --> 01:02:40.679
overwritten in series one and two.

1363
01:02:41.099 --> 01:02:44.280
It's just Benny hadn't kind of worked it out yet.

1364
01:02:44.340 --> 01:02:44.880
Yeah.

1365
01:02:44.940 --> 01:02:46.679
So, so I don't know.

1366
01:02:46.739 --> 01:02:49.619
I think then that that final scene we could perhaps have done

1367
01:02:49.619 --> 01:02:50.940
without it.

1368
01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:55.739
Do you know what I love about the confidence of season 6 of D

1369
01:02:55.739 --> 01:02:59.880
Space 9 is that we've just had this incredible episode, yeah?

1370
01:02:59.940 --> 01:03:03.659
And well away from our usual deep space 9 setting.

1371
01:03:03.719 --> 01:03:07.920
Um, and then we skip back to the, you know, our normal setting and

1372
01:03:07.920 --> 01:03:11.159
the next episode starts, and it's one little ship, and they're

1373
01:03:11.159 --> 01:03:15.840
shrinking down, the runabout, the size of a coffee cup, and Kira's

1374
01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:18.659
pissing herself laughing about the whole thing in the 1st scene.

1375
01:03:18.719 --> 01:03:23.039
Right, they were just going for it in series 6, yeah.

1376
01:03:23.099 --> 01:03:28.199
But amongst all of it, you know, the amazing 6 episode arc at the

1377
01:03:28.199 --> 01:03:30.719
beginning of the seasons, we've already done rocks and shoals and

1378
01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:31.380
how great was that?

1379
01:03:31.500 --> 01:03:36.300
And they're like, brilliant episodes in their waltz, that amazing

1380
01:03:36.300 --> 01:03:40.199
psychological drama with Dukat down on a planet with Cisco.

1381
01:03:40.260 --> 01:03:44.699
Um, right the way through to stuff like um, his way, gorgeous

1382
01:03:44.699 --> 01:03:46.679
romantic comedy with Kira and Odo.

1383
01:03:46.679 --> 01:03:48.960
In the Power Moon, like, whatever you think, it's doing

1384
01:03:48.960 --> 01:03:49.619
interesting things.

1385
01:03:49.679 --> 01:03:51.119
Yeah, absolutely.

1386
01:03:51.119 --> 01:03:54.239
Sound of her voice, more sort of explorations of the war.

1387
01:03:54.300 --> 01:04:00.119
But this really stands out as probably the peak of season six.

1388
01:04:00.179 --> 01:04:02.099
It's certainly the one everybody remembers, right?

1389
01:04:02.219 --> 01:04:03.539
Yeah, yeah.

1390
01:04:03.599 --> 01:04:05.039
No, I think it's good.

1391
01:04:05.099 --> 01:04:09.179
And I think actually just kind of dropping the allegory, dropping

1392
01:04:09.179 --> 01:04:12.719
the sort of space nonsense for once and just kind of telling a

1393
01:04:12.719 --> 01:04:17.760
more straightforward story about an issue that the director and

1394
01:04:17.760 --> 01:04:21.420
the star are particularly concerned and passionate about.

1395
01:04:21.480 --> 01:04:23.400
Like it makes it pretty special.

1396
01:04:23.460 --> 01:04:27.360
It's pretty hard to equal, I think, when it comes to a Star Trek

1397
01:04:27.360 --> 01:04:28.139
message episode.

1398
01:04:28.199 --> 01:04:31.619
Yeah, because I'm flicking through the script and going, oh, it's

1399
01:04:31.619 --> 01:04:34.079
like, fuck, no no technobabble this week, all right?

1400
01:04:36.659 --> 01:04:39.239
Oh, no, it's glorious.

1401
01:04:39.300 --> 01:04:40.739
I mean, no notes, really.

1402
01:04:40.800 --> 01:04:42.960
I think it's superb.

1403
01:04:43.019 --> 01:04:44.340
Yeah, brilliant.

1404
01:04:48.960 --> 01:04:52.320
So it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to work out

1405
01:04:52.320 --> 01:04:54.119
what we're going to be doing next.

1406
01:04:54.179 --> 01:04:56.219
You rolled this one.

1407
01:04:56.280 --> 01:04:59.639
I think you are having a better run than me, actually, at picking

1408
01:04:59.639 --> 01:05:00.420
episodes.

1409
01:05:00.480 --> 01:05:02.639
And so, hang on.

1410
01:05:02.699 --> 01:05:06.000
I think, although I don't want to be too mean about you choosing

1411
01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:09.840
an enterprise episode, but putting up anything against far beyond

1412
01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:11.940
the stars coming next was going to struggle a bit.

1413
01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:13.440
Yeah, that is true.

1414
01:05:13.500 --> 01:05:17.820
But in order to get a better chance at a good episode.

1415
01:05:17.880 --> 01:05:26.400
I've decided to restrict my choice to one very reliable Star Trek

1416
01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:29.219
series, and that is Star Trek Lower Dex.

1417
01:05:29.280 --> 01:05:30.840
Oh, wonderful.

1418
01:05:30.900 --> 01:05:33.599
Well, I hope it is one of the last series, because I haven't seen

1419
01:05:33.599 --> 01:05:34.320
any of those yet.

1420
01:05:34.380 --> 01:05:35.579
Oh, yeah, okay.

1421
01:05:35.639 --> 01:05:36.119
All right.

1422
01:05:36.179 --> 01:05:37.800
Okay, so here you go.

1423
01:05:37.860 --> 01:05:39.119
We still can't choose a season, can we?

1424
01:05:39.239 --> 01:05:40.800
No, not yet.

1425
01:05:40.920 --> 01:05:42.960
Shame or ever.

1426
01:05:45.059 --> 01:05:47.760
All right, here goes.

1427
01:05:47.940 --> 01:05:51.840
Season one, episode three, temporal edict.

1428
01:05:51.900 --> 01:05:53.880
Temporal Edict.

1429
01:05:53.940 --> 01:05:55.500
Okay, I'm going to do something.

1430
01:05:55.619 --> 01:06:00.059
I don't usually do, and that is read out the synopsis each time

1431
01:06:00.059 --> 01:06:01.139
because I don't know too much about these.

1432
01:06:01.199 --> 01:06:05.519
Captain Freeman orders a new policy aboard the ship that forces

1433
01:06:05.519 --> 01:06:08.639
everyone to meet strict new productivity standards.

1434
01:06:08.699 --> 01:06:09.960
Oh, that does sound fun.

1435
01:06:10.079 --> 01:06:11.760
It is pretty good.

1436
01:06:11.820 --> 01:06:14.880
I do remember that, and she learns a valuable lesson about not

1437
01:06:14.880 --> 01:06:15.420
doing that.

1438
01:06:15.480 --> 01:06:17.940
But I am going to try again.

1439
01:06:18.239 --> 01:06:20.039
We have done a couple of season ones, haven't we?

1440
01:06:20.099 --> 01:06:22.980
I've just rolled this one though.

1441
01:06:23.039 --> 01:06:30.960
Season one, episode 10, no small parts, which is the final episode

1442
01:06:30.960 --> 01:06:33.599
of season one.

1443
01:06:33.719 --> 01:06:38.280
So it sees the introduction of the character of Peanut Hamper.

1444
01:06:38.340 --> 01:06:41.159
And... laughing already.

1445
01:06:41.280 --> 01:06:47.699
It also has shacks dying heroically to save Rutherford's life.

1446
01:06:48.119 --> 01:06:52.860
Oh, and I do remember there's some great, like there's some money

1447
01:06:52.860 --> 01:06:55.500
in the animation in... yeah, yeah.

1448
01:06:55.559 --> 01:06:56.639
It does look pretty good.

1449
01:06:56.699 --> 01:06:57.719
Season finale.

1450
01:06:57.780 --> 01:07:00.599
Yeah, I don't, we haven't done one yet, haven't we?

1451
01:07:00.659 --> 01:07:01.139
We did the one before.

1452
01:07:01.260 --> 01:07:02.039
We did crisis point.

1453
01:07:02.099 --> 01:07:03.719
Yeah, that's true.

1454
01:07:03.780 --> 01:07:04.139
That's true.

1455
01:07:04.199 --> 01:07:07.139
Oh, I was so hoping you was going to roll.

1456
01:07:07.199 --> 01:07:08.699
Um, what's it called?

1457
01:07:08.820 --> 01:07:11.639
mathematically perfect.

1458
01:07:11.699 --> 01:07:12.420
Redemption.

1459
01:07:12.480 --> 01:07:14.880
The peanut hamper one.

1460
01:07:14.940 --> 01:07:15.780
Wonderful.

1461
01:07:15.780 --> 01:07:16.500
So good.

1462
01:07:16.619 --> 01:07:17.579
So good.

1463
01:07:17.639 --> 01:07:18.780
Should I try another one?

1464
01:07:18.780 --> 01:07:19.860
Oh, cool, then.

1465
01:07:19.920 --> 01:07:20.940
Yeah, all right.

1466
01:07:21.360 --> 01:07:25.500
I've just rolled 2nd contact, which is series one, episode one.

1467
01:07:26.219 --> 01:07:28.559
Can you kick out seriously?

1468
01:07:28.559 --> 01:07:31.500
Dangerous game, which we've done before.

1469
01:07:32.340 --> 01:07:35.639
Cupid's errant arrow, which we've done before.

1470
01:07:35.760 --> 01:07:40.559
Kashon, his eyes open, which introduces Lieutenant Kashon, the

1471
01:07:40.559 --> 01:07:41.699
Tamarian commander.

1472
01:07:41.760 --> 01:07:44.579
Um, it's very silly.

1473
01:07:44.639 --> 01:07:46.559
Let's try another one.

1474
01:07:46.619 --> 01:07:49.619
Grounded series 3, episode one.

1475
01:07:49.679 --> 01:07:54.539
Oh, Carito's crew on Lee Freeman awaiting trial.

1476
01:07:54.599 --> 01:07:57.119
Oh my god, that's that wonderful episode where they try and break

1477
01:07:57.119 --> 01:07:58.019
her out, isn't it?

1478
01:07:58.079 --> 01:08:01.800
It's I think it's pretty good, actually. really great.

1479
01:08:01.860 --> 01:08:02.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1480
01:08:02.699 --> 01:08:06.119
Okay, we've skipped from a finale to an opener. to a season

1481
01:08:06.119 --> 01:08:06.659
opener.

1482
01:08:06.719 --> 01:08:09.059
Okay, so grounded season three, episode one.

1483
01:08:09.119 --> 01:08:12.179
I mean, it's almost guaranteed to be entertaining.

1484
01:08:12.239 --> 01:08:13.679
Of course it is.

1485
01:08:22.739 --> 01:08:26.399
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford

1486
01:08:26.399 --> 01:08:30.539
and Nathan Bottomley, we're online at Untitled Star Trek Project

1487
01:08:29.640 --> 01:08:33.180
com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social

1488
01:08:33.180 --> 01:08:34.020
media accounts.

1489
01:08:34.079 --> 01:08:38.039
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was

1490
01:08:38.039 --> 01:08:39.779
composed by Cameron Lamb.

1491
01:08:39.840 --> 01:08:44.579
This episode was recorded on the 14th of May 2024 and released on

1492
01:08:44.579 --> 01:08:45.420
the 7th of June.

1493
01:08:45.479 --> 01:08:49.380
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Lower Decks, Grounded.

1494
01:09:05.279 --> 01:09:09.600
It was, um... for Spacebase.

1495
01:09:09.659 --> 01:09:10.560
Hello, dear listener.

1496
01:09:10.619 --> 01:09:13.739
Welcome back to Flights through Entire, no, what is it?

1497
01:09:13.800 --> 01:09:17.579
2nd great and bountiful Human Empire, the only doctor who...

1498
01:09:17.640 --> 01:09:18.359
Yeah, yeah.

1499
01:09:18.420 --> 01:09:23.520
The only Doctor Who flash cast that does say space restaurant and

1500
01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:27.300
space champagne and space, you know, hats.

1501
01:09:27.359 --> 01:09:31.560
You know, that scene from sleep no more, like the funniest line in

1502
01:09:31.560 --> 01:09:35.100
sleep no more, where it's Capoldi going, people don't say space

1503
01:09:35.100 --> 01:09:38.640
restaurant and space, you know, hats.

1504
01:09:38.760 --> 01:09:40.140
Like, it's so great.

1505
01:09:40.199 --> 01:09:40.920
It's so funny.

1506
01:09:40.979 --> 01:09:42.119
Don't you remember that?

1507
01:09:42.119 --> 01:09:42.840
Two minutes later.

1508
01:09:42.899 --> 01:09:48.000
We could be attacked by space pirates. and I just go, yes, I won.

1509
01:09:49.920 --> 01:09:51.779
I don't know, though.

1510
01:09:51.840 --> 01:09:53.340
I also really like the.

1511
01:09:53.699 --> 01:09:55.739
Oh that's so racist.

1512
01:09:55.800 --> 01:09:57.600
It's the Salurans. all over again.

1513
01:09:57.659 --> 01:09:59.340
I get to name them all.

1514
01:09:59.520 --> 01:10:01.439
I love that bit.

1515
01:10:03.720 --> 01:10:05.220
All right.

1516
01:10:05.760 --> 01:10:08.340
Do you know about judgement day?

1517
01:10:09.300 --> 01:10:11.159
We'll talk about it.

1518
01:10:11.220 --> 01:10:12.000
I want talk about it.

1519
01:10:12.060 --> 01:10:12.960
Is that a spinoff?

1520
01:10:13.020 --> 01:10:15.060
No, it's a...

1521
01:10:15.119 --> 01:10:17.640
I think it's one of the things that this is based on, this story.

1522
01:10:17.699 --> 01:10:18.960
Oh, sorry.

1523
01:10:18.960 --> 01:10:20.159
Oh, true again.

1524
01:10:20.220 --> 01:10:21.899
No, no, no.

1525
01:10:21.960 --> 01:10:22.979
All right.

1526
01:10:24.479 --> 01:10:27.479
Hey, Joe. Hi.