Hey, Joe. Hi.
So we're back in the middle of the 22nd century this week for a
voyage aboard Enterprise, and I think, was this one my choice?
Because I usually choose Enterprise.
If you have the last 2 or 3 times, yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I never really said go on board.
Well, I have to say that I don't hate this episode and it's series
3, episode 12.
We're right in the middle of the Zindi Arc, and it's written by
Manny Koto and directed by Roxanne Dawson.
And so it is actually really good for an episode that's sort of
fairly slide.
And I thought what it does well is that it takes the new setting
of being in the Delphic expanse.
And it bases a sort of fairly standard Star Trek story, but it
bases it around an important kind of element of the kind of law
for this story.
So the spheres and the makers.
And I think we discover this episode that the spheres are
generating or manipulating the Delphic expanse or something.
And we see makers later in the season, and I think we learn that
that's exactly what happened and stuff.
So all of that is building towards something in a way that I think
is kind of interesting.
And then it's got this theme which is sort of relevant to the
Zindi thing as well.
I mean, in the 1st half of season three.
There's a lot of these rando episodes that are tenuously linked to
the overarching plot, that actually have nothing to do with it at
all.
It's a bit like season 6 of Deep Space 9 where every single piece
of that season is connected to the Dominion War Arc, but not
necessarily the ongoing narrative.
So it's just adding sort of shades to the overall picture of the
season.
But my issue here was DF9 had 7 years to play about with the
Bajoran faith, right?
So by the end of what you leave behind, I felt as if I understood
it quite well, you know, and I understood what they believed in
and all the different ceremonies and all this stuff that they do.
I was about to say nonsense.
Sorry.
An hour of enterprise in the middle of this season.
It's action-packed season.
I didn't at all understand the religion that was focussed on in
this episode and quite how it came to be, quite what they believed
in and all that.
So I'm like, I'm having a bit of trouble understanding why any of
this is relevant.
So why I think it's relevant is this. clearly season 3 is a
response to 9-11. and so you have a massive terrorist attack on
earth and you stop doing the kind of liberal exploration, making
alliances nonsense that characterises Star Trek, and you go off to
kind of, you know, kick some ass and stop a 2nd attack from
happening.
You've watched it anomaly.
They're angry.
And here what they're doing is looking at another aspect of that
in a different way.
So what we have are religious fanatics who have suicide bombers
who take over the enterprise, and because they're such religious
maniacs, they don't care about how much havoc they wreak, how many
people they kill, they're completely impossible to persuade.
Right is on that.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And and for me, and there was a strand of commentary after 911
that located the problem that led to 911 in the religious beliefs
of the people involved, that Islam had a problem, and that Islam
was inherently irrational and mediaeval and violent and
incompatible with the modern world.
And so the people that we were up against, the problem with them
was that they were religious, and that absolutely is such a gross
oversimplification of the whole thing, and I don't know enough to
talk really confidently about the geopolitics here.
But there's a reason that, uh, certain areas of the world are more
religious than others, and I think that there's a reason that
certain societies have a grudge against the United States, and I'm
not in any way defending like who is defending, you know, horrific
and murderous terrorism, but just the idea that it's caused by
dumb religious people seems really reductive and ridiculous to
me.
But I hear what you're saying.
But I don't think they entirely go down that route, because
amongst this religious sect, we meet people that are questioning
the faith and what they're being asked to do, and I thought this
was the essential part to making the 1st half of this episode work
they cast a very thoughtful actor in the role of the head
extremist, who is a sort of a reasoning man, who, you know
everything in his religion tells him that he should be
annihilating the enterprise crew, because they committed heresy.
And at one point he goes to Archer.
Well, look, I know you did this, but I like you and I think you
are a good man.
And so they could so easily have painted them, you know, black and
white.
I do think there's a bit more shade than maybe we could have hoped
to expect.
I think that's true, but I think that it's more like hated in the
characters of, like, I said, Yarik and the his wife, you know, the
young man whom Archer is eventually able to persuade to help them
to kind of take the ship back, whereas this guy, I think, he's a
manipulative kind of cult leader.
And so all of his appearances of charm and rationality kind of
belie the fact that he's just an absolute maniac.
I did like the performance, though.
I thought the guy gave...
Oh, I did too.
I think it's a great performance.
A more subtle performance that I thought we would have got.
Trouble is, Nathan, is, you know, we had gold to cut as a
religious leader.
An insane despot, religious cult leader at one and everybody
powers in comparison to that in terms of entertainment.
So, of course, this guy, the character, I think it's called DJ
Mart, and he was the guy, Conor O'Farrell, who played Jeff in
Little Green Man.
Is he really?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. not make the connection.
Earl Green Men more times than it's healthy.
Okay, that's a good term.
I'll tell you what, my biggest issue with this episode was, because
you, you know, you'd watch this before me and you sent me a
message saying, uh, this, that was better than I thought it was
going to be, you know?
So I went in with high expectations, saw the teaser and went, oh
god, this looks so boring.
What is he smoking this week?
And then the 1st 3rd of the episode, there's 2 parts of them. well
talk about it when we're in there really made me sit up and I was
like, ooh, Enterprises was being a bit edgy for once.
This is unusual.
And then in the middle, 3rd.
I thought, oh, suddenly everyone's behaving a bit stupidly, you
know, especially the religious people.
And then in the end, even though it was well staged, it was
basically Voyager action on Enterprise, you know?
And that's fine.
You know, it's quite dynamic, but there's no surprises in that
last third.
No.
I did think it was just competently done and enjoyable to watch
and the action was quite good and I like there being action.
You know, that's a fun thing.
Nope, the camera work during the early scenes when they take over
the ship.
I was really aware that she, uh, Roxanne Dawson, quite impressive
direction here, was doing a lot of handheld camera work and just
sort of, I don't know, framing the shots in really interesting
sort of tight ways.
I thought, okay, even she's got, you know, we're not doing this
lame ass, naughty's trek direction anymore, you know?
We're kicking into the new millennium now.
She doesn't go on to continue with acting all that much, does
she?
I mean, she basically becomes a director.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. hot demand.
If you look at her IMDb, she's done a lot of work.
Yeah, no, she's great.
I mean, we think she's a great actor as well.
But she does a good job here, I think.
Well, you know what?
think we should probably watch this episode.
We wondered if we were going to have much to talk about, but I
think we will.
Yeah, I think we probably will.
All right, let's count us in.
Five, four, three, two, one.
And we're off. 42 minutes and 50 seconds.
I like that in an enterprise episode.
Can I say immediately?
Yeah, I love the design of the stairs in series three.
Yeah.
Like, this is all about uncompleted one.
But when they're eventually done and they've got this sort of net
of webbing going around them and they're spinning, they're really
quite dynamic.
So I think the next episode after this is proving ground, which
we've already done, like we have done the next episode, and that
contains the Zindi weapon, which has all of that spinning stuff.
This is where I think, which looks pretty great.
The leaps in CGI work with enterprises, when they're doing stuff
in space, you know, so you had that shot there of the shuttle
going around the sphere.
I look pretty good.
It's when they start trying to do something a bit more detailed
and recognisable like people is when it all falls apart.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think the final scene too is probably more than they can
actually technically achieve too.
I was thinking of you the whole time I was watching it.
They do look a bit like Bajorans, these people, don't they?
Yeah, yeah.
And sort of the hippie bead thing and the, and the, all of that
you know, that's a bit Bajoran as well.
You know, something that's vaguely kind of Native American.
Clearly, religious zealots have a look. you know, in the future.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's it.
It's been a long road.
So, what are the... is that we get to see those people by
themselves in scenes, and that's the thing that 90s Trek doesn't
do, and it's in the normal Bible and stuff.
So that scene there where we just had the 3 what are they called?
They're called trianons.
Cool, say off.
You know, yeah, they're talking to one another.
That's actually not too bad a thing.
And then later on we get Yarik and his wife talking to one another
too, about their feelings about being an a cult led by DJ Mart. So
you know, like, I think all of that stuff is pretty good.
Again, it's more fun and confident, no, when Goldger cuts fucking
off the cult and calls the woman to.
And the baby's born and it's half Cardassian.
My God.
It's a miracle.
The car rides to set as a sign.
I mean, it's more fun than this, I'll tell you.
Yeah, 0 yeah.
No, look, I mean, he will go on to revisit that, obviously, in
Battlestar Galactica with Gaius Baltar, kind of weird sex cult in
the late seasons.
I quite like this title sequence.
I made Mark listen to the title sequence music. this time around.
I was on a train. listen to this.
And he listened to it and he went, oh, what a terrible song.
I went, that's that's the title music to start a Enterprise.
He went no, it's not.
I mean, it is.
Why?
he said.
I went, I don't know, really.
Bless them.
What's this astrometrics?
And so I don't know, but it is like a very skinny, very tiny broom
on the ship.
And you complained again about how gray this all looks.
So gray, Nathan.
Yeah.
Why?
It's because it's great and their uniforms are blue.
There's just no colour in the screen at all.
Well, I think the sets are small as well.
But you know why they are.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And the screens as well, all these Dell monitors everywhere.
It is so hilarious.
What's weird is, you know, we watched some TNG lately.
I feel like the graphics are going backwards.
I mean, I know there's supposed to be a more primitive time, but
it's made afterwards.
So technically this should look better.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, they're trying to make it look less.
But I mean, but like, remember what we talked about in discovery
you know, just use the technology you have now, okay?
They were never going to do that.
That's why they were capitals.
Yeah, they would they have more monitors than the enterprise that
does.
Nice way that ship's sort of latching onto the edge of the
enterprise there.
Did you see?
Yeah.
Oh, John Billingsley.
He's great in this.
I have to say he has a really, really good, um, like a really
really terrifically good scene and uh, some fun scenes as well
where he talks to the wife of the, of the cult member, where I
just was obsessed with his body language, because he refused to
hold himself in a naturalistic way, every part of the scene, and I
couldn't take my eyes off him.
See, I think that's an ugly moment.
So we look across and we say one of the cartworms in his face is
all disfigured and it's the disfigurement that's caused by the
anomalies in the Delphic expanse, the we see those, you know, on
the ship that they go and investigate early on.
I can't remember what the episode is.
And so they're warped, do you know what I mean, physically warped
by their desire to contact the makers and stuff.
Is that considered like a spiritual experience?
Exactly right.
And in fact, Dejamat makes that and shows Archer where on his
forearm.
It's happened to him as well.
And so, you know, they deliberately caught being disfigured
because they're such maniacs.
Um, yeah, I just think all of this stuff about religion is ugly.
Wow, I don't think, uh, post 911, we were going to get a non-ugly
treaties on religion, if I'm honest.
But that's the point, I think, with for me about enterprise.
I made a joke the other week that Voyager was next gen only more
right wing and Enterprise was next gen only even more right wing
than that.
And that's what we have here.
We have America's reaction to 911.
Voyager had come along a couple of years later.
So Voyager had been around post 911, all of this sort of ugliness
would have seeped into that show as well.
Well, like, Voyager has a problem where we're not making alliances
we're in the distant Delta Quadrant, and we aren't cooperating
with anyone.
You know, we're just one ship bravely making our way in anyone
who's in series 7 when she suddenly decides, no, we do need to do
that.
Oh, no, wait.
It was a bad idea.
I was right all along That's right.
So that's a problem here.
It is just basically, you know, here's how America wants to
respond to 9-11.
And they just go all in on it.
There's no one suggesting that there's sort of better angels of
America's nature or that America.
Yeah, here we go.
There's his warped forearm.
My one sort of reaction to that, though, is I do thing.
I know you don't really like what it's saying.
I do think it's a better television show in series 3 than series 2
because they just try to do something ambitious for once. you know
and they're finally saying, Jesus, we're on the verge of being
cancelled.
If we don't do this season long arc now, we're not going to get a
chance to do it.
So they just go for it.
I really like that.
Well, you see, I think that that's why I like series 4. and I like
series 4 not because it goes back and visits all this sort of Star
Treky thing and has, you know, a Klingon arc and an augment arc
and a, you know, Vulcan arc.
But because it does do, it tells a continuous story and they've
kind of nailed how to do, um, like how to do serialisation in it
and they prepared to do it.
It's almost like a reaction to three, isn't it?
Because 3 didn't really work in terms of numbers.
Like they started bleeding viewers who didn't have the patience to
watch this thing play out over a whole year.
I thought, well, I think people were just born of Star Trek anyway
at this point.
So I were in four.
They said, yeah, like you said, let's tell a big picture, but
let's tell individual stories, but we'll do three parters, so we
can do them, our own pace, you know, focus on a different races.
We can do lots of character moments because it's a three, you know
3 hours long effectively.
It was yeah, it was a great move.
But there is just something, I know it winds up being a big sort
of cartoon in space because it ultimately ends up archer on top of
that great big bomb, you know, fighting the Zinti in all of this.
But, I don't know.
There's just, there's so much more substance to it than series 2
where the show was just floundering like a fish out of water.
Yeah.
Yeah, but I think it is the big problem is that Berman doesn't
have any real personal kind of interest in the, um, Star Trek's
kind of ideals and stuff.
Now, this woman in background who's having dinner.
She's going to be killed, right?
She's the one that gets blowed up.
She's got a lovely bit of carrot cake there.
Did you notice?
Yeah, she does some really shit acting in that scene.
And so...
So... watches him, injecting himself.
Yeah, I'm just saying...
I'm not being out of here, Nathan, let's go.
I've seen enough episodes of Star Trek to no, that's not good
news.
Yeah, so now we're getting to see how terrible he is like what an
absolute maniac this guy is.
And what a sort of cult leader, you know, the charismatic cult
leader. completely charming.
Oh, char, hasn't he, in order to get people in places he needs
them to be to take over the ship.
I've got to say, though, the bit where, even though I feel like
the scene in basics where the Kazon does it in his quarters is
much better done.
It's far more intensely shot than the sort of long shots that
Roxanne does in this.
Um, It really did make me sit up and pay attention to the
episode.
I was like, okay, shit.
There are some stakes to this now.
When they start taking over the ship, mind you, then I've started
getting basics vibes when all the religious leaders started taking
over the whole of the ship, you know, there was loads of them
about on the bridge.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so is this the scene with the ultimatum where he explains
what's been going, you know, what he thinks.
Oh yeah, you're all about to embark on a glorious mission.
And so we are a, yeah, yeah.
See, I really love how he does this. because he plays against what
he's saying.
He's not making a threat or anything like that.
It's kind of like I'm making you an exciting offer.
Um, and he's not playing it as a, you know, like a massage
twirling villain.
I think it's actually pretty good.
And I like the fact that Scott Bacula actually doesn't do an
absurdly over the top reaction to it either.
He's like, is he serious?
Yeah.
Now, part of the problem too, here is that this guy looks too much
like the other guy and I can't tell them apart.
The pretty guy is about to blow himself up.
That woman's looking mildly interested.
Purple veins all over his body.
It's not good news.
Will you please run away?
Oh, no, she's been sucked out.
Nope, she's dead.
Yes, and that's where the CGI doesn't work.
Did you see a little CGI outline?
blesser.
But this is now right.
Okay.
So we are in genuine danger from these people.
Although, I remember saying to Mark on the train, you know, he was
getting a commentary on this episode as I was watching it.
I remember going, why did they invite, you know, 50 people over to
the ship.
Like just one or 2 would be enough.
Oh, no, but wasn't their ship damaged or something?
I don't know what's happening.
I also think it's kind of weird that there's one woman among the
religious people too, and that they're all white.
Wow.
Like, it just struck me that everyone's wine.
And there's just one woman.
I was confused because in series three, you know, there's this
whole thread about these macos, trained soldiers on board the ship
and they do get some shooting.
Well, they do, but they don't do anything till the last fucking
third.
What is the point of these people?
They're supposed to be the best of the best.
And this bunch managed to take over the ship.
I really like this.
I really...
Oh, when he says a lie.
I'm going to treat this person whether you hurt me or not.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Whether you want me.
You know, I'm I'm not leaving until I've treated these people.
It's really good.
Can I ask what Hoshi's up to in this episode?
Is she Venus?
She's on the bridge at one point.
I'm...
What about Mayor?
whatever his name is.
Is he about?
Oh, yeah, it was in the teaser.
That's right.
Yeah, yeah.
He got his lawyer teaser.
You know, be grateful for that.
Yeah, exactly.
I did like, I liked it when he said, you know, I've just said 2 of
my, my suicide bombers to your walk core, right?
If you don't exceed to my demands.
I did like that line as well.
And then the other moment that really made me sit up and pay
attention was when he said, you guys have committed heresy.
I do like you.
I'm not going to kill everybody.
You need to choose somebody to murder.
And for 2.5 seconds, I didn't realise, oh, of course, he's got to
choose himself.
I actually was like, shit, who the hell do you choose?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hoshi.
She don't get many lines.
Who would you choose on the Enterprise crew?
Yeah, I choose Archer as well, actually, by the most amazing
coincidence.
He's the biggest arsehole.
No, don't say to it.
Is that true, doesn't he?
No, no, no, no, no.
Once we're done with you, you know, your crew are going to need a
captain.
Assuming not.
What are they going to do?
Just put them off the ship.
Yeah, I guess.
I don't know.
No, they were, no, they were going to take the ship.
They were going to blow everyone up and then they were going to
let everyone on their way.
Because remember, like, he says your crew will need a captain.
So they're not intending to keep the ship.
They're just intending to go and blow up the heretics on their
home world.
I love to poll in this.
There's one thing she gets.
One thing I learned in this episode is she has the best resting
bitch face of anyone.
Oh, that is so good.
Yeah, just the look on her face.
And I, there are a few lines there where I was kind of mentally
adding in, you fucking idiot at the end of them, which is
obviously her signature move.
She said they worked really well.
And just has eyes for daggers.
And I was like, oh, I would not want to be on the receipt.
They say, you know, open fire.
And she just goes, no, I'm not going to do that. love that scene.
Yeah, so good.
That scene earlier on where he says, look, I lost a man in that
explosion as well.
He's so mental.
It's so crazy.
There is something I do really like about Kurtzman Trek. is that
they remember to turn the fucking lights on so we can see people
in that.
I mean what is going on in this room?
Jesus Christ.
I think this is actually quite, this is okay.
There's shadows.
There's, you know, backliding happening from the screens and stuff
like that.
But do you know, like, how we talk about the lightning, as we
check, how every scene?
It's just so beautifully lit and all the images all come at you.
My eyes are just going to sleep watching this.
All of it.
Come on, Roxy.
Put the lights on.
That exchange is really good too, where he tries to say, well, you
know, the heretics would say that about you, and his comeback is
well, they're wrong, you know, because they don't know the truth
and he says your truth, and he says, no, no, there's there's only
one truth.
And like all of that is actually really.
Yes, and this, you know, it doesn't matter if heretics die.
It doesn't matter how many of them die at all, because, you know
that's what God wants me to do.
And all of that stuff.
He delivers really calmly and straightforwardly.
He doesn't sound like he's unhinged or anything like that.
Does he say how good?
how this religion all started, how they started to believe the
makers were.
No, but I like, you know, it would have been something else if
this had not been in series three.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, and series 3 gives them something...
Exactly.
Although I did find, I get the point they're trying to make when
they say the difference between the 2 sides is one day, that how
long it took for something to be built as one day.
But I was like, oh, that's so on the nose, isn't it?
It's obvious.
Yeah, no, I think that's terrible.
Like, I think it shows a real contempt for religion.
And like, I'm not religious in any way at all, and I don't find
the beliefs of any religious system compelling.
I don't really properly understand.
Maybe if that was being played for comedy, that might work.
Yeah.
But like, you know, like the, and the history of Europe has, you
know, 2 large, well, you know, large religious groups that have
differed from one another in ways that just look stupid from
outside.
And obviously those are not the real reasons.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, the schism, the great schism doesn't happen really because
one side thinks the word filioque belongs in the Nicene Creed and
the other one doesn't, right?
That's stupid.
That's not...
That is what they're suggesting less than that. that's what
they're suggesting.
They're just saying religious people believe dumbass random things
and then they go around blowing the rest of us up. how it's
slightly different.
They've gone to holy war and lots of people have been murdered.
Okay.
Thank you, Enterprise are pointing that out.
So you don't have a backup on enterprise, aren't you?
This isn't all on Dropbox.
Like, I don't know what's happening. is deleting all of the
files.
This is a common edition.
This issue you have with Star Trek.
Do you remember on the Voyager episode?
What was that?
19.3 XB.
That seems like a lot of data.
I think this file's going to be bigger than that, you know?
That's right, this episode.
Oh, so now he tries to reach out to the, you know, sympathetic
cult member.
The pretty one.
I keep calling it a cult...
They not really.
They're just religious fanatics, but...
It's sort of the same thing.
Yeah, it is being portrayed that way, is it?
TV religion.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but, like, look what we had with, look what we look.
I think that the original conception of Star Trek, which is a post
religious society where no one in the original 2 series had any
religious commitments, and we rarely heard about religion.
And I think that's good.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, I think that, you know, that's fine.
And that's a sort of utopian future, like whatever.
Look at Kira.
It's so interesting. look at Kira.
Exactly right.
And you get to deal with religion sympathetically as a feature and
really probably an ineradicable feature of human experience.
And so what is it?
Do you know what I mean?
And how do adherents feel about it?
These are cartoon religious people, and they're just here to say
the reason that Muslims don't like us is because they believe
irrational, stupid things for no reason out of sheer perversity.
And that's not good enough, I think.
So you're saying, just don't go, if you're not going to...
Well, I think that this is just a sort of kind of pro-American
cartoon about religion and about our enemies and how terrible they
are.
And so I think there's a sort of just a massive level of bullshit
here that doesn't belong in Star Trek, to be honest.
But I don't think it's a bad Star Trek episode apart from that.
Like, I think, you know, as, and, because the other thing that's
super interesting, is that she's gone to Dr. Flock's for an
abortion, and he won't give her one yet because he doesn't know
enough about their physiology, because he can't scan them because
they're full of bombs, and, and, the show itself doesn't seem to
say that's a bad thing, and it never gets resolved, and her
reasons for wanting an abortion, which is she doesn't want her
child to grow up in a world ruled by this dipshit. like Like, that
seems to me, to be absolutely rationalised, seems to the show to
be rational.
I think that's actually a surprisingly progressive view of
abortion for a show, you know, from a country that's so insane
about it.
Are you saying then that religion cannot only really be handled in
Star Trek, effectively, sensitively, if it's being told sort of
long form over a series rather than a glimpse in an episode?
Oh, no, I think that you could do a well-written episode that was
sort of sympathetic and had interesting things to say about
religion could do it.
I mean, obviously do it.
I think confident it was a great episode of DS Knight.
There's nothing sensitive about it.
No, no.
It's absurd, but it's fun.
At the moment in Star Trek Discovery season five, Q is going on
some kind of spiritual journey and I actually half think, oh my
god, that just sounds terrible woo woo nonsense.
But on the other hand, I sort of think that might be an
interesting thing for discovery to do on the way out.
But we've talked in the past about Cisco's journey in DS9, where
he starts off gone.
We're having one of those speeches, one of those backstory
backstories.
Oh, we go, yeah.
I knew there was one action I had to take.
I had to kill the 6 year old kid.
You're proud of that, aren't you?
No.
I love his response.
No, that's not what he says.
The makers are blessed ones.
Yeah, that's great, isn't it?
But go back to Cisco quickly.
Well, because he sort of finds religion, doesn't he, throughout
the show?
He starts off, you know, learning about the prophets and then we
have the 1st half of the series.
That's 4 seasons where he pushes against that.
I don't want to be the emissary. is a bit of a chore.
And then somewhere in the middle, that gets taken off him.
He's like, Jesus Christ, I was doing such good for those people.
Look at this.
Look at this arsehole coming in and ruining it.
No, I'm going to embrace this.
And then by the end, obviously he finds out he's from the
prophets.
That's where he came from.
And I mean, it sounds try, but it works.
I think a lot of it's accidental, but it works.
Don't don't you think it's interesting, his reaction, that Deja
Matt's reaction to the choice that Archer has made, and he's
hostile to that choice.
You know, like Archer can only make that choice.
How can you justifiably make any other choice?
He's the captain.
I'd respect him more. to kill someone.
But just kill Malcolm, no one will know.
Have that line, Brad Dora, if I had.
I didn't like the way he looked at me. choose him.
You know?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But he's kind of shocked and staff.
Yeah here we go.
Yeah, but this is like this is beyond lame now.
And I know they don't know what a transporter is.
But we do, so we know exact, but the next 3 scenes.
We know how this is all going to play out and it shouldn't be this
predictable.
When that bomb went off earlier in the episode, I was shocked
didn't think they'd go that far.
Now it's like, and then in the last 3rd, you said this before this
was a good episode of Star Trek.
I think it starts off as a good episode of Star Trek.
But by the end, it's also predictable.
Yeah, I think just as well, you know, like I'm entertained by the
action and stuff.
It not particularly thoughtful and stuff.
I think, again, this is playing on the idea as well that our
religious enemies are primitive and stupid and easily kind of, um
easily tricked, and they don't have to go to any effort.
He never, ever pushes back.
He never once for a 2nd considers this might be a hoax.
We know as well that this obviously, I mean, we know anyway, but
we know because none of the way this is filmed, suggesting
somebody dying.
It's all done, you know, very near, isn't it, the way it's done?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paul doesn't even react.
You know, there's no swelling music or anything.
Not like when Jad Seaer died, you know, in a hail of fire and
music.
Yeah, yeah.
If Archer went out this way, it would be very anticlimactic.
Very boring.
Wow, that's enterprise, isn't it?
Yeah.
But look, I actually quite like, again, this guy O'Farrell's just
reactions to all of this.
And look, Tupol's doing some acting.
His praying.
Yeah, he's doing the Bajoran sort of nonsense speak, you know, that
they just make up.
Oh, just say something, use some consonants.
Yeah, yeah.
So now we know Archer's somewhere on the ship.
So I was like, okay, so this could be quite interesting now.
He's going to run rings around them a lot.
Actually, it didn't really play out in a especially dynamic way.
No.
In fact, what he does is he gets a chance to persuade Yarik to, you
know, change the size.
He texts Dr. Flock, so doesn't he?
Which, very obviously, I thought that was actually pretty great.
I was watching the graphics though, going, oh, this is so
primitive.
The funny thing is that no other Star Trek would ever have done
that, I think.
Like the chorus, this is 2001 and we're all texting one another.
I do like the fact we know it's Archer because he says don't
figure him cheese about the dog.
Yes, don't feed Porthos cheese, and we've mentioned Porthos then.
Fucking dog.
For God's sake.
That the Dr. Flogs will be looking after him.
If there's one thing that we've discovered about Nathan and I, an
untitled Star Trek project, is that Nathan has far more sympathy
and patience with children and dogs than I do.
No, they're awesome.
There should be more of them on TV.
Although I did like that dog's that terrible fake dog
suspended...
They were drilling a hole in the head.
So bizarre.
Because that'll be fun.
It's so strange.
Oh, dear.
That's right.
The fella behind him there.
Look, the religious guy is a bit suspicious.
Also type it out on that on that console.
So much fun.
Oh, there he is.
And then cut, there's the dog.
The dog's reacting.
Beyond a night in sick bay.
Has he ever used as a plot point?
Again, isn't it?
He is down on board the he's down on the planet in Strangely World
isn't he?
Oh, all of that's left my brain in, I'm honest, for good reason.
No, that's got the joke.
He's...
Don't believe me.
He's only got to stare at her screaming until hilarious. just
wonderful.
There's so much of him in this.
I love I love how they put him in this sort of ill fitting
costume.
You know, he's got no interest in looking sexy on telly, does he?
No, but I think he's got a rather sort of louche 70s sexiness, 70s
style sexiness.
Like, you've said this.
I love that.
Like, I can say that he's a swarm. especially when he talks about
you know, co-husbands and all of this.
Yeah, yeah, he's definitely...
Which co-husband are you fucking this week, my love?
Oh, I tried to think what he gets up to in progress.
Probably best we don't find out.
Oh, yi, yi.
Okay.
What's going on?
So archer's in the Jeffries tubes and he's just kidnapped one of
them and he's tricorded him so that we can... yeah there we go.
And so now Billingsley has found the weapon.
Action was very well shot, but actually there's a few bits, you
know, where people are shot by phasers where they do very
laboured...
Looking forward to seeing that. keep an eye out for it.
Oh, so much gross.
And is everyone just being a dick here?
Like, are they all being uncooperative?
Because they keep saying, oh, Archer's pulling all the plugs out
and stuff.
So maybe that explains it. to poll, yeah, playing innocent.
I can't identify the location.
I'm sorry.
This console doesn't do that, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, but look at him. pulling all of the bloods out.
Oh, man, no man.
I really love that engineering set.
Just the physicality and engineering.
Yeah, yeah.
It might be my favourite of all of them, you know.
I still think that the one with the wall in Strange New Worlds is
pretty damn incredible.
Well, you can't really climb all over it.
No, that's true.
It just sort of goes off into the distance.
But it is stunning.
Oh, Connor Tranilla looking absolutely gorgeous. isn't pretty.
Bless him.
Yeah.
Yeah, look, the way you shot that film.
Just wait a 2nd.
That was so boring.
That was unbelievable.
I'm not sure how you can do it well, if I'm honest, you know, being
hit by a phaser.
They're a bit better in DSI and Voyager, that sort of thing.
Yeah.
What is it about?
Is this what the makers really want to kill people, but the
thousands?
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
That's exactly what they wanted to do.
But what he's relying on the fact is that a normal person is going
to think, that's terrible, you know, like, that's kind of mad.
Um, yeah.
Oh, bless this guy doing some serious acting in this bit of alter
bless him.
Yeah, I think he is pretty good.
I think he's pretty great.
He's got a career ahead of him I think.
Well, he's got something ahead of him probably.
As for Scott Bacula, where his career ends here, okay, with this
dreary character.
I know I'll say it in every episode.
I just can't reconcile him with that charismatic man that William
Shatner met on the farm playing his guitar and sitting on a horse
just so likeable.
How is that Captain Archer?
Those ships, they do look a bit sort of Kazon-esque, don't you
think?
Yeah, they, yeah.
Yeah. think they're pretty good.
Like, I think they look great.
They're kind of a little bit like slave one about, you know, Boba
Fett's ship, you know.
Yeah here we go.
Another thing we've learned in untitled Star Trek project is
Nathan has a bit more of a hard on for Starship design, yeah.
So again, do you know what I mean?
There's just reductive idea that religious people just have wars
about stupid things.
It's kind of like you do understand those things are almost
certainly pretexts for something else.
You know, it's yeah, here we go.
Dr. Flocks has synthesised an enzyme, you know?
Airborne.
No, good for him. it's airborne, so it just deactivates all of
their trigger mechanisms, which is pretty cool.
Now, do you recognise this guy on the screen?
Oh, who is it?
Tell me.
It is Solok in from Take Me Out to the Holo Suite.
It's the Vulcan captain.
Last scene in a much better problem in that episode, didn't he?
Do you remember the unrestrained anger between him and Cisco?
Have a seat.
It was so good.
It was great.
That's such a great episode.
Holy crap.
And in a way, enterprises the story of, you know, guests and semi
regulars in much better episodes and much better shows, getting to
have their last go on Star Trek, you know, in something somewhat
inferior. disappointed girl on Star Trek.
Just in case you were thinking of doing this again.
This is how bad it's got now.
I quite like, oh, there you go.
Come on.
I'll give him a Vulcan neck pinch or something.
Did you see Tapold doing a bit of Emma Peel?
I thought that she might get on there and do a bit of a neck pinch
but apparently, do we do that?
Do they do that?
Should have kicked the shit out of him.
Oh, here we go.
This is awesome.
So the bat is so great.
Don't let him bite you.
He's poisonous.
It's so funny.
No, firstly, he's just said, don't worry, it's harmless.
But then later on, unless it's agitated.
Oh, no, the payoff, though, the comic payoff when he goes, you're
going to get an extra porcelain of Snow Beatles tonight.
Love that line.
Oh, my little girl.
I love that.
Oh, it was wonderful.
I mean, why isn't why doesn't flocks just run every episode?
It's so good. so much fun.
I think he's the one character they chill out with.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, he gets to be silly and kind of enjoyable and it's partly
because he's alien, I think.
Well, I didn't understand after 4 years.
I didn't realise, actually, it's really working with Dr. Flocks.
Why don't we just do it with the rest of them?
So we did have denobulence very heavily name checked in discovery
a couple of weeks ago.
I just would like to point out that Merriweather, Mayweather, did
just get a shot.
He didn't get a line, but he got a shot. appear on the screen.
Excellent.
Yeah, careful.
No antidote for the venom.
Then he just hyposphrases.
And then does it land on him?
Or is it still flying around?
Oh, for you, young lady.
Yeah, for you, young lady?
That's awesome.
Is it wonderful?
How does he get hold of her, he doesn't.
Oh, and there was something, this is going to seem like a bizarre
observation.
There was something I really liked about him screwing in this
liquid and then we watched the liquid going down because normally
we're just told, aren't we?
We're sold, oh, there's an agent in the air.
They actually like the brass fittings and stuff, the things that
are like milled metal that look really...
They have definitely put some detail in the design of that to make
it look more like our technology than just space technology, which
I really like.
Look at it, look at that.
There's a, you know, a washer with a nut and stuff, you know, like
it just looks like a Mecano set or something.
So this is sort of the action you was talking about now. 2 levels
phaser shots, hiding behind gantries and staircases and things.
Yeah, yeah, that's kind of fun.
It's not, it's, it's competent, I'd say.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think it's a bit more like, yeah, go on.
Where's this episode going now?
Yeah, well, I just think we sort of shoot one another until we get
off the ship or something until we, you know, we kind of, is there
a big setback?
What we need has come some kind of moment where, you know, we
think something's going to happen.
We think that they're they're winning and then something
disastrous happens and then they don't. then there's another
reversal, don't we?
Is it just all a bit too linear?
Is it too easy?
you know, discovery would discovery would have an ending like this
you know, with phase of fights and one, it would look more
impressive.
And two, there'd also be like a thematic conclusion.
A character, you know, decision made and we'd learn something
about them.
It wouldn't just be, okay, well, we need to get on with this indie
arc now.
So let's get these people off the ship as fast as we can. when
they talked about how much they all loved one another and then
we'd go into the closing credits.
Oh yes.
Michael would stare off camera with tears in her eyes.
Look, we're shooting the fuck out of these guys.
That's awesome.
I don't know why there's only one woman among the cultists.
How much better is this?
Do you remember indeeds on the voyages where those that those
terrible pirates took over the ship?
It was so boring.
How much better resist than that?
Yeah, yeah, like Connor's not having to kill himself here, but
there's heaps more people with more guns and stuff, but, you know
suddenly and these are the voyages.
Tripp goes, oh, well, nothing for it, but to kill myself at this
point, you know, like, it just seems so...
I can't help but notice, so you all seem to have forgotten that
they are suicide bombers and they could just blow up parts of the
ship doesn't work.
And the other one has just pulled out his thing to stick in his
hand and he gets shot before it happens.
They have waited about 10 minutes, though, to reach that
conclusion.
But we have had some scenes of them trying to do it, which I think
is sort of reasonable.
I love this woman who is trying to decide whether to shoot.
Is it Reid?
She's head bitch macco shoes.
And then she just gets thrown against the wall and stuff like this
is all a bit kind of a bit shit, I think.
You know, like it's not terribly badly directed, but it's a bit of
a waste of time.
Malcolm Reese action hero.
Look at that.
He can punch like an absolute man.
Nathan, I'm perfectly convinced.
Malcolm Breed is the worst character in all of Star Trek.
I did like how pregnant.
What's her name?
In Darver or whatever her name is gets to shoot the guy.
Like, so husband and wife are both kind of, they've both changed
sides.
Okay, so I think that's it.
We've got the shit back, but there's still 5 minutes to go.
What?
Well.
Yeah.
We're going to come to some sort of a conclusion.
Oh, of course, we're going down onto the planet, aren't we?
Yeah, so one of the things that I did is research for this is I
watch the end of Let This Be at your last battlefield, because it
has a very...
Ah, because they invite comparison on memory, don't they?
And so what do you have is the 2 people running through the ship
one of whom's Frank Gautian, I think, with the, you know, white
and black faces.
I've never watched it all the way through, but obviously I'm aware
of it.
And the same conclusion is that their hatred for one another has
destroyed their planet.
And so, uh, it's it's really kind of an interesting looking
scene.
Oh, here we go.
Is that then the foregone conclusion to our holy walls?
No, no, because I think that people can still be reasoned with.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, that's the point.
The point isn't that these people are massively different from
us.
Do you know what I mean?
Like people still love and like people, some people are maniacs
all of that, but just because someone's religious doesn't mean
that they can't be reasoned with.
That's not how it works.
I don't think.
You know, I don't know.
I don't know.
Maybe religion does make people.
What are we trying to say in that last scene?
Well, I just think like what they're trying to say is that all of
the destruction and devastation that you people experience is your
own fault for being so religious and and so intransigent and stuff
like that.
Maybe it just wasn't as subtle as I was suggesting about the
start.
I think that's a bad message too.
You know, like I just think that's awful.
Well, surely that doesn't, if you're sort of projecting that
message to people via television, surely you're suggesting that we
hate all religious people.
I mean, that's no good, but look at, look at England. you know
what I mean?
Like there are Catholics and they're a Protestant.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're in it.
I don't have to be.
Miserable, just looking out the door now.
But there are Catholics and Protestants.
Two groups of people who fought for 100s and 100s of years, but
don't find anymore. wouldn't dream of it.
Do you know what I mean?
And they disagree on matters of doctrine, but they don't fight one
another over.
It doesn't have to end like that, you know?
Um, Yeah, so we've persuaded Solok, what have we persuaded him to
do?
Oh, that...
I quite like how he just goes.
He just kind of goes, yeah, all right, I'll go.
He doesn't say anything.
I was done with this anyway.
My favourite show's on soon.
He just looks at him.
I thought that was actually quite a good response.
Okay.
So, okay, so if this if this episode isn't really trying to
examine religion in a very thoughtful way and if this episode
isn't a part of the larger picture of the season, what are we
doing?
Just filling an hour?
Well, no, no.
I think I think that what we're doing is they think what Star Trek
does, which Star Trek takes a social issue and examines it through
the lens of the show.
And so I think they're doing that.
And I think they do it well.
They examine an issue and they construct a fairly exciting piece
of television around it with a good guest star and all of that
sort of thing.
I just think that what they're saying about religion is awful and
kind of, you know, just upsettingly crap.
And so is this the wrong time to tell this episode?
Well, I just think it's the wrong thing.
Yeah, I just think it's a, given their reaction, given what
they're doing this thing.
Well, I think that's why they're telling it.
I mean, they're telling it as, you know, here's another angle at
which, you know, from which we can examine 911, essentially.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, this doesn't work.
Final effect shot.
Not really.
I mean, I don't mind so much the the landscape.
I think that's okay.
You start putting actual people into it. and it's very off. great.
Do you know what I mean?
But they just can't blend the people against the backdrop, can
they?
Not in the way they can now.
Yeah.
And I don't know what it is.
Oh actually, no, some of the some of the buildings look a bit
cartoony.
It's something about the lighting and you're never really
convinced, I think, that they're outdoors.
You know what I mean?
So this is Archer basically going, well, fuck you guys.
Look, this is where it all leads to.
Yeah, yeah. that's right Stop believing what you believe, all
right?
Oh, you're all going to die.
That's miserable.
Yeah, so this is the pace that your faith will bring, you know
like, um, and then he just leaves him.
DS no, I never took this angle with the Bajorans.
No, no.
I mean, it questioned it, and sometimes it gave it a negative
sphere.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it was always shown that like that, yeah, oh, well, fabulous.
It always showed that the faith gave Kira strength, you know?
Yeah. and that sort of highlighted the community aspect of
religion. just all the good sides of religion.
Yeah.
Like I said, I've got no religious commitment at all.
I don't really have a dog in this game, but I think that that's a
kind of weird, self-justifying and fairly simplistic take on what
was going on to lead up to 9-11. and the role that religion played
in that.
And I think religion does play an enabling role and can get people
to do terrible things that they might not otherwise do.
But that's not all there is to religion.
And there were other things going on.
Do you think this would have been a better episode of this was a
more sympathetic portrayal of religion?
Well, like, I think if you want to say, yeah, I don't know.
I don't know.
Like, I just think saying that religion is a very bad thing and
our religious enemies are just perverse and don't value human life
and are behaving in a way that is ultimately self-destructive and
all of the ruin and misery in which they live their lives is their
fault.
I think that that's simplistic and self-justifying.
And I think it's an ugly message for Star Trek to be saying.
A very odd message for the Americans to be making, a staunchly
religious story.
No, I think it's other people's religion.
That's the problem.
Although Manny Corto, I think those people.
Yeah, but I also think too, that, you know, that Star Trek does
depict a post-religious human society where religion and money and
stuff like that has all been sort of more or less left behind.
And so in that context, is religion a kind of a thing that we
don't have anymore that we're too enlightened to have.
And so now we can sort of say terrible things about religion
because we never examine any kind of good religion.
Do you know what I mean?
Or any, any characters, any human characters whose religion
provokes them to behave well and be kind to people.
We didn't start doing it until after Roddenberry died.
He vetoed religion in the next generation.
We're not touching it at all.
Don't do it.
And I think that's kind of okay, but I do think it actually just
freezes out a whole heap of really interesting stuff and the Deep
Space 9 was right to do it.
I mean, I mean, just Kai win alone justifies.
Yeah, really great stuff and like credible stuff and making fun of
American civil religion.
Do you know what I mean?
Kai Wing is like a right wing, you know, Christo fascist kind of
leader of the kind that exists in America and she's great.
She's a great portrayal of that.
And so that's part of that self-criticism that, um, deep say sign
does.
But the way that religion is handled in DS Night, it's just in a
far more entertaining show as well.
You know, like this show was never going to present this in a
truly riveting way.
Because I feel like just enterprise is always, it's never quite
edging towards top tier, you know?
It's always just above average at best.
And I'm not sure why.
You know, I've yet to do one on, on top of such a pretty well.
Well, I've been able to just say, that was just an incredible
piece of television, you know?
We've done it a fair few finds with TNG, with a Voyager, with, well
maybe not, incredible, you know, very good.
But there's just something a little tired about this show.
Yeah, I think that's it.
I think, you know, I think we've identified it.
They're played out.
They've got nothing really new to say that's why they're having to
do season 3 in the 1st place.
They've run out of actual Star Trek stories to tell and they're
just doing something else instead and something a bit ugly, I
think, at times.
But to their credit within that fatigue.
You can have guest actors coming and do interesting things.
You can have the regulars desperately trying to claw some kind of
charisma out of these boring characters that are being asked to
play.
You know, and occasionally there can be the odd surprise, like
there was at the beginning of this episode for me, that actually
makes you go, oh, maybe this one's going to be good.
Oh no, it's not.
I thought that was okay.
You know.
I'm not sorry that I spent time watching that, I think.
Alright, it's the end of the episode, and it's time for us to find
out where we're going next.
I chose this excellent episode of Enterprise, and so it is our
show's turn to turn the tide.
Joe, what series are you choosing from?
An excellent use of the term excellent there, might I say?
I'm trying to keep that as ambiguous as possible.
Yes, well, you know what?
I know we're sort of slightly inching ahead of the other shows
percentage wise with my absolute favourite, the love of my life
Deep Space 9, but I just fancy watching Deep Space 9 this week
because I'm off.
So that's why I'm going to break it.
It's been about 7 or 8 episodes, doesn't it, since we did?
And the last one we did was profit moment.
We did enjoy, but was very slight.
Yes, that's true.
What would be quite nice would be if we got a really, really shit
DS9 episode that we could just tear apart for once, you know
because I'm always so nice about it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It feels like a long time since the halcyon days of dramatis
persona, doesn't it?
Why is he making that clock?
He's still got the clock, you know?
Please say it one last time.
At the time, right.
Obviously, I knew you very well then, but at the time, I just
remember thinking listening back, what a sarcastic cunt.
Okay, all right.
Let's press the button.
Oh, looking for a palmark in all the wrong places.
The glorious Klingon sex comedy that we walked in before.
Oh, tacking into the wind.
Oh, they were just picking...
The arc episode that we did.
Oh.
Oh, I don't think we can go far.
It's not really terrible.
It's probably the most celebrated episode of Deep Space 9.
What should we do this?
Season six, episode 13, far beyond the stars.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, I think we have to do it.
That's a biggie, isn't it?
I want to say terrible though.
That's really not terrible.
No, but I think once we've rolled it, I think we have to do it.
I mean, it's got Penny Johnson Gerald in period outfits.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
People out of latex.
We could get married.
Have a baby.
So good.
That'd be great.
And you know what?
I think this properly gives us the chance to talk about Avery
Brooks, who gets a central role, who directs this, and there's so
much brilliant trivia about his direction of this.
Both good and bad.
This is the episode where him and Renee John Moir came to blows on
the set.
And it's because they were both so passionate about the work and
getting it right, but they had creative differences about how they
wanted a scene to be played.
And obviously, his those 2 characters have some big scenes in this
episode.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, boy.
Yeah, that would be amazing.
Wow, let's do it.
Let's do it.
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at untitled Star Trek project.com, where you can find
subscription links and links to our social media accounts.
Now, podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 14th of May 2024 and released on
the 31st of May.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Deep Space 9, Far Beyond the
Stars.
So, I have copied down to two notes from this, like, just 2 bullet
points.
How many do you normally do?
Are you ready?
Sometimes I do more.
But this one.
This episode was formerly known as untitled sphere story. all
that.
So they shouldn't have say that in the beginning, all right?
This is the tag.
Oh, untitled sphere.
I think they should have kept it.
We did.
Come on.
And then the other one, which I think is super important, is this
episode marks the final appearance of the Pyrithian bat.
Oh, is it the last one?
It's the last Pyrethian bad episode.
Oh, I did like it.
It just made me figure that dreadful episode we watched last
time.
Which one?
Oh, it's so funny.
These are the voyages.
No, the bat's great in that.
That's a good scene, yeah.
No, all those scenes about what arsehole archery is. all gold.
All right, we should start.
Does he have a few moments in this?
I don't remember annoying me too much in this.
Yeah.
I mean, he did a very predictable thing, didn't he?
of like, oh, yes, I choose me.
I'd have said, you know, oh, I choose Marjorie on tactical.
She really annoys me.
So kill her.
Yeah, I'm captain.
I can pick anyone I want.
I actually thought that was a good moment for him, but, of course
he'd found a way out of it because religious people are stupid
about it.
So that was also lame.
Matter dissemination.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We use it to just, you know, when the little portholes that you
can throw stuff out of them jammed.
We put it in the matter disseminator.
Oh, no, Nathan, we've just done all the talking points of the
episode.
But now.
I put this in the tag.
Okay.
All right.
It's been a while since we've had a tag that's from before we
start rather than after we finish, you see?
There was one, which was just you and me talking, which I loved.
I was like, oh, is this the sort of things we normally talk
about?
I was like, what about Star Trek?
It wasn't 5 minutes long.
You and me gossiping.
I was like, oh, this is great.
It didn't have anything too personal in there, did I?
No, I don't think so.
No, I'm sure you...
Yeah, yeah.
I would have chosen it just us.
Although the funniest one was when you're talking about the back
fence.
That's the best one.
But it's sort of shit coloured.
That doesn't show the shit on it.
It just makes sense. so ugly, you guys.
Oh my god.
All right, all right, right, right, right, right, right.
He goes.
He goes, he goes.
Hey, Joe. Hi.