Hey, Joe. Hi.
So we're back on Voyager with a better episode than we did the
last time we did Voyager.
No, that's true.
All of the other ones are better.
This is Voyager, series 6, episode 3, Barge of the Dead, from
October 1999, and it is, I think, the last episode that Ronald D
Moore had a hand in. that right?
A sad occasion, I think, given the impact that Ronald D. Moore had
on Next Generation, Deep Space 9, and for a very brief period of 4
episodes.
Possibly the best 4 episode runs.
Or Voyager.
Yeah.
Yeah, so this is a story that's written by Ronald D. Moore and
Brian Fuller, who co-created Star Trek Discovery, and the
teleplayers by Brian Fuller, and it's directed by Mike Vajar, who
is someone who directs a lot of them.
Michael Vajar, I think, is the best director of the late 90s, early
2000s.
So he's the one that came in and did tacking into the win that we
did recently, what you leave behind, Sacrifice of Angels.
He directed Endgame, which I know we have things to say about, but
it did look pretty great.
Yeah, yeah.
He's the one they give all the sort of event episodes too in the
tail end of 90s trick.
And I think he does some interesting things here as well.
Yeah, I do too.
I complain about 90s trek not wanting to look weird and this seems
to be a script that wants to be weird that wants to show us things
that we've never seen before.
So some of it is the sort of same old Klingon stuff that we're
basically used to since what, Heart of Glory, maybe a matter of
honour.
But there's all sorts of new elements here.
And there's some great visuals, although I have to say, they're
not quite as great as my memory of...
No, my, you know.
Still, it's like a cut above what I come to expect from Voyager
which is pleasing.
You know, there were a few moments where my eyeballs were
titillated and that doesn't happen very often when we watched 90s
trick.
And then the other thing is that it concentrates on one of our
favourite characters and one of our favourite actors.
So this is a Balana episode.
It's a Klingon episode.
I finally remembered her again after 2 seasons of 7 of 9.
We've got a new woman in the show, so we can't focus on the other
women, of course.
We can only focus on this new hot Jerry Ryan.
And then I think somewhere between 5 and 6.
I went, oh, do you remember we've got Roxanne Dawson?
She can act as well.
Let's give us something to do.
And she gets this and she gets Muse this year and they're both
great episodes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And she's really good in them.
She is really good in them.
Going back to what you were saying about Brian Fuller and Ronald D
Moore.
I actually think that is a match made in heaven.
Given the similarities that you and I have pointed out about Deep
Space 9 and Discovery, that sort of, um, tentative arc building
and strong character work that the both of those shows do and the
sort of look sort of picking up the rock and looking at the
dirtier side of what happens in the Star Trek universe.
I think they complement each other really, really well.
And maybe this isn't their best work, either of them, but I think
I would have liked to have seen that collaboration go on because I
think I, I mean, it can't, because then we wouldn't have got
Battlestar Galactic, Erin, that was just one of the best genre
shows we ever had.
But I think this is a tantalising glimpse into what Voyager could
have been if the 2 of them had continued working together and
refined it a bit more, you know?
Just about people, about the bloody characters for once.
That's it.
And part of the problem, I think, is that this is the beginning of
year six, we've had 5 whole seasons, and Bellana hasn't really
advanced very much beyond the kind of single paragraph outline
that we get of her, presumably in the show's Bible.
What was it?
X-moquee, X-moquee, turned Federation Engineer.
That's it.
She's a Klingon, but she tries to suppress her Klingon side and
her parents broke up, and we covered all of that sort of stuff
particularly in faces, and in fact, in our sort of 2nd or 3rd
episode of Untitled Star Trek project. episode, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, in lineage.
So it's a thing that they go back to because it's basically the
only thing that she's got going.
And here, here it is more interesting, but they do explore it
further, but it's a little bit too late in the day to try and base
just an episode on that character and have it really properly
work.
And if we ever saw any evidence of this stuff in episodes that
weren't about this, then it would be different, but we don't.
And there's no real all out of this, is it?
Lineage is another season and a half away, which is forget about
this whole thing for a year, a year and a half and then we're
going, oh yeah, I've already got issues about my lineage.
Let's deal with that.
I'm having a baby.
And then once again, we never talk about that.
It's not like DS9, is it, where they do remember the character
beats throughout the show.
It is weird how we dip in and out of people's anxieties as of when
the show wants to cover them. we've covered that as well, haven't
we?
It's the problem with formulaic TV, you know, procedures.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
And just not being able to do any sort of arc development.
And so this is very good, but it is in a way a little too late.
And while that stuff works really well, the other thing that I
think is interesting is that it flirts with the idea of religion
but I'll talk about it as we go along a little bit.
I think it has some really good, interesting things to do, that it
does some really interesting things with religion that Star Trek
tends not to do, and that it does some weird sort of TV crap with
religion as well at the end, which I think works rather less
well.
So I don't think it's got anything sort of strong to say about
religion and I don't know that the character stuff with B'Elana
lands, but.
In spite of that, it's a great performance, the script itself is
really good. lots of interesting things happen.
It looks great.
Like I think this is, you know, among the best Voyager episodes.
Certainly of the ones that we've covered.
Interestingly, you say late in the day.
So this was originally supposed to be a DS9 episode that Ron Moore
wanted to write, and it was about Martok and Wolf rather than
Belana.
I don't know whose parent was dishonoured.
I guessing wharfs, because that's a that's a strong thing, isn't
it, throughout DNG?
And Ira Bear put the kibosh on that and said, no, it's too late in
the day to tell this sort of story.
We're doing all the war stuff now.
I don't really want to get into this big treaties on religion and
death. this late in the day.
So, our bear had the knots to say, no, we ain't doing that.
Well, of course, the Voyager writing room, we're going, my God
look at this great script.
Of course we've got to do it. much better than the shit we
normally put out.
Who cares?
It's too late in the day.
And rocks I get stuff to do.
There is one brilliant thread through this episode, which we'll
talk about when we're in there, and that is that they suddenly
remember, and they've completely forgotten about this for about
2.5 seasons, that early relationship between Janeway and Torres
and just how brilliant those 2 are when they're on screen
together.
And I really like, it doesn't say anything in the last scene, but
I really love the last scene of this episode.
I actually felt very moved for 2 characters on Voyager. and I'm
gonna tell you, Nathan, that doesn't happen too often for me.
No.
I was really moved by that final scene except for the involvement
of Robert Duncan McNeil, but we'll get there when we get there.
He does threaten to sing a lot of scenes in this episode.
Let's him.
That's one particular moment where he does his hysterical acting
which I went out as we go.
Oh my god.
All right.
I think we'll go in What do you think?
I'm scared the next time we do a Robert Duncan McNeil episode.
Just nobody's just going to be really mean about him.
Yeah, don't let Ed please.
I know he does his own podcast, so don't let him know we exist
people, please.
All right.
I'm going to count us in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
This is our sort of general voyager opening.
The shuttle shaking, sparks are flying.
Palada Torres is in having technical issues.
I actually thought this was okay, but again, it's sort of very
constrained in a sort of voyage away.
Like we only see into the shuttle bay through the shuttle window
and so it never looks quite as impressive as it has it cool.
That POV shot going through.
Yeah, it's not period Voyager through the doors.
Yeah.
Unfortunately, it is exactly the same cold open as threshold
except that time it was Tom Paris and...
This time it's also not real.
Here he is speaking for devil.
Oh my god.
So one of the things that really shits me about, about the
character, not just Robert, but, but, but Tom Paris is that it's
always about his feeling, like he centres his feelings.
And so we're even in an episode of...
Particularly in an episode about Torres, when she is in danger or
where she's experiencing something, he's there to kind of tell us
how he feels about it and he just annoys me.
See, I love this one, the way I love it when Joe Wade chews people
out.
I get a little bit turned on if I'm honest.
Yeah, so this is fun.
So what's happening here?
No, this is not fun.
This is what Voyager does all the time.
She calls her Lana for this one scene.
She's never done it before, and she'll never do it again.
But do you know why she doesn't because what's happening in this
part of the story, this is the thing...
It was just a dream now already now.
Yeah, so this is all of this is the dream.
We open with the dream.
And so all this Klingon stuff is leaking into her experience of
Voyager. none of this is real.
She was in like a coma right now then.
Yeah, she's in a coma right now in the eye on storm.
And so because there is this thing where it explicitly kind of
equates Janeway with morale, her mother.
So that's why we have Janeway, call her Lana, which, again, yes, I
love this hope until you...
Even in her head, she's doing a normal Voyager episode where
something from the Alpha Quadrant has ended up in the Delta
Quadr.
And I love the fact that they go, we don't know how.
Maybe it's because the Borg assimilated a ship and it's just they
just spat out the debris or maybe it was...
Her theory is that they're saying brave Klingons came into the
into the Delta Quadrant.
Um, and she's dismissing that.
But it does lead to the wonderful image of all of that blood
coming up out of the symbol, which I was very badly realised.
I think it's too large on on 90 Star Trek.
Not a lot.
We said that in reunion, didn't we?
And I like it when you see the table from below with all the blood
sort of just running out onto the glass table.
I didn't think it was that bad.
Yeah, it's a bit rough.
I think it's not as bad as the bug is. patch on Tashi Yar's face.
Oh yeah, yeah, no, but that's meant to be weird.
Yeah, see, that looks pretty good, doesn't it?
It's coming out of the logo, but then when it spills over the
table, it looks really shit.
Do you know, I don't know if you noticed in that very 1st scene in
the shuttlecraft, right?
Tom Paris came up to Bilanosaurus and said, oh, you did.
Nobody in any sort of existence would go up to somebody and ask
that question, would they?
When I get a 1st day call at work, I don't go up the summer and go
are you dead?
No, I'm good.
Well, I'm going to treat you now. question.
Yeah, yeah, that's the 1st question.
I'm not going to treat you if you say yes.
So, at the moment, all April World's warning bells are going off.
Uh-oh.
Klingon symbol, blood.
Bl Torres, we're in for a Klingon episode, everybody.
You know, you can sort of zone out for this one.
Yeah, yeah, but it's not the usual thing because it's being taken
away from wharf, you know, is this the 1st Ronald D. Moore Klingon
episode that has an involved wharf.
And so now he has B'Elana to play with, and she has some
similarities with Wolf, but like lots of differences as well.
That's super interesting, isn't it?
It takes a little more to actually do a proper Klingon episode on
Voyager.
I don't think any of the other riders are that interested.
It's his obsession, Ron Moore.
I mean, he wanted that.
He wanted the Klingon spinoff.
That's what soldiers into the Empires was all about.
It was supposed to be a pilot for Martoc to have his own spinoff
show.
And when that was clear, it wasn't going to happen.
He said, well, can I just write that one episode then of just all
of a Klingon cruiser?
Think about the latex bill.
It just would have been ridiculous.
I feel it would have been as successful as the lone gunman show
was from the spinoff in the Exiles.
Yeah. you know, 9 episodes. only lots of latex.
Actually, you know what?
As a complete side note, this only the child sequence, so it
doesn't matter.
Did you ever watch the pilot of the lone gunman?
Where the plot was, a bunch of terrorists nicking a plane to crash
into the twin towers.
Oh my god, really?
A year before that happened.
Do you think he didn't?
Do you think Chris Carter did that then?
It's just a very odd coincidence. don't think they show it
anymore.
No, probably not.
Ah, here's Harry Kim.
Now, poor Harry as well.
Like here he's been given, he's a little bit sarky and tired and
stuff.
And so there's something going on for him in this scene, but he's
just not really very good, unfortunately, and the camera doesn't
catch some of his, you know, some of the faces he pulls.
He kind of, I can see him sort of trying and he just doesn't get
you know, he's not saying it's very wrong.
I mean, you've got rockside Dawson there looking absolutely
beautiful.
Why would you be looking at Harry Kim?
Oh, Harry is beautiful and he is he's more my type than Roxanne
who is undoubtedly very beautiful.
I'm not too sure anymore, Nathan, if I'm honest with watching
these pretty ladies in Star Trek.
That's true Oh, no, here we go.
Neelix has come along to do his ambassadorial duties. ha.
Daughter of the Empire.
I'm doing a party for you.
And so, and so part of the thing here, like why everyone's got
such a sort of massive hard on for Klingon culture is that none of
this is real, and this is, you know, the Naj, the, I think it's
the Naj, stupid. where she's pretending not to be on the barge of
the dead and all this Klingoness is leaking into the illusion
she's constructing.
But I swear to God, Ron Moore, who's has written the story for
this, yeah, possibly some of the teleplay has looked back over
Voyager.
He's very aware of what they're putting out, and he knows all the
cliches, and one of the cliches is Neelix comes along with
whatever's going on this week and goes, well, we're going to throw
a party in the, in the mess hole.
That happens loads of times.
Things coming from the alpha quadrant into the Delta quadrant.
That happens, like, I swear to God, he's leaning into the cliches
on purpose.
Well, because this is a constructed version of Voyager that
Bananas making.
We can all just say it in the end, it was in her head. why there's
so many cliches in it, you know?
But in a way, it's a tell, isn't it?
Like something odd is going on, we don't know what it is.
Why is everyone suddenly acting so Klingon?
And it starts here in this incredible scene.
This is wonderful, isn't it, this scene?
So Tim Russ plays a Klingon in invasive procedures in series 2 of
Deep Space Nine.
Oh, have you Do you remember its performance in that?
I've seen so.
The 2nd he gets those teeth in.
He was so over the top.
It's glorious.
But he's great as a Klingon here, and it kind of works as well
because, you know, Klingons and Vulcans date from the 1960s and
they're very, very alpha quadrant, and in a way, they're kind of
the essence of Star Trek.
And so, you know, the fact that she doesn't behave like a Klingon
and has rejected her Klingon heritage is in a way kind of
offensive to Tuvok.
But like Tuvok is a Klingon kind of leaking through.
I do think this is the 1st time you properly know something is
up.
Like the other scenes you could sort of write off as, okay, this
is our typical Voyager.
Now he's behaving so out of character.
You know what's another cliche, Voyager, is that when they give
Tim Russ something to do that isn't being a monotone robot, he's
reliably excellent as he is here.
Yeah, yeah, he's so good.
This is really great.
Like, I like, you know, like, I like that he cares about Klingon
culture.
I think when he gets angry, he's like the scariest thing in
Voyager.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
He's really good.
Holy crap, they waste him.
Wait, can we get to Mel?
He's in that room, Sailor Power's going to murder everybody.
It's really scary.
I do like how he keeps the lights down as well.
It's a Warrior's blades. crafted for precision.
I mean, look at how he handles the bat list.
Yeah, he's really good, isn't he?
Like, woo hoo.
He sort of nicks her face, doesn't he?
Yeah, yeah.
And that's the beat, that's the beat where he goes too far and
where she kind of gets cross with him and it looks, that's weird.
You know, it's your idea. therapy.
Oh, and that's super violent, isn't it?
Like he just like goes for a phase.
He doesn't accidentally nick it.
He's like, it's really good.
It's, it's, and like you said, it's very dramatically lit at that
scene as well.
Well, but it is always in his quarters.
Um, but yes, he is behaving very oddly and...
So sort of dog. in silhouette, though.
It's lovely Oh, I just think this is joyous this scene.
Not Neelix come along singing the Klingon.
But, um, I love the bit in slow motion while they all get murdered
horribly.
I was like, yes, Harry Kim, yes, stabbed in the stomach, you
know?
So this song, and I thought I had heard it a lot before.
You have heard it on one DS9.
It's in Way of the Warrior.
Yes, yeah.
Yeah.
And so Martoc and and Worf sing it.
Um, and so this is the best Robert and Jerry Ryan singing it.
And I think any excuse you can get those 2 singing, you know
absolutely do that.
Well, they love, didn't they?
Just a few episodes back and someone to watch over me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I like the fact that she sings.
She sings beautifully, but with a look of utter disdain on her
face that she's doing it. just terrific.
Very hard to pull off, but she somehow manages it.
I've got to say, right, this is probably, ooh, what is that
ghastly food on the plate?
Is it gah?
Oh, that's, yeah, that's gosh.
Doesn't he say I injected it with a stimulant?
I mean, to make it move.
Yeah, yeah, because it's replicated, so it's not alive.
So he's, he says a kinaesthetic agent or something. to give it a
little...
That is, though. poor even, Phillips.
I think that's his most annoying look.
Series 6 is where they brush his hair to such a degree that he's
got sort of feathered hair coming out of the top of his head.
Oh okay.
And he's put on a, oh, no, I've been going on about people putting
on weight lately, but he has, is, is, Jacket is severely padded.
It's a bizarre look, he gets this season.
You go back and watch him in series one.
It's all much more muted.
Right, right, right, right.
So, so this is the 2 of them talking and that's the problem with
the Roxanne episode is that the worst Robert always comes along
for the ride.
She's saddled with him.
That's why.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But she's so much better than him.
So this is the, this is the religion thing that's happening, okay?
And in particular, the breakup between morale and her racist
father seems to have been precipitated, not this time by by Balana
but by the religiosity, morale religiosity, right?
And we really play up the fact that Marah was super religious and
you know, sent her to a monastery when she was little after the
breakup and it was all rituals and honour and stuff like that.
And that's kind of interesting.
We'll get back to it because again, he didn't interject then.
Did you see as well?
That was one scene where he just listened to her.
Yeah, talking about her childhood.
Sometimes why?
What about me?
Oh, this is great.
Look, the lights have come down.
The flames are licking against people's faces.
Janeway is giving a very strange Klingon speech and now...
I think that looks great.
It's a slow motion stuff.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Look, I like after a lot...
They've turned the fucking lights down and it's suddenly more
atmospheric.
Yep.
Every time we have a flame in the set, it's better than the usual
strip lighting that they have.
That's right.
No, and the way he sort of is slow motion comes up behind them and
I mean, the size of that bloody knife he's got.
Gameway's being stabbed in the back.
The big knife.
Not sure how the doctor was murdered with a bat left, but it's in
Balana's heads, I don't know.
No, he gets knocked over, I sort of thing.
Harry stabbed in the gut.
Yeah.
Whoop.
There he goes.
They must have had great fun shooting this.
So you reckon all playing dead on the floor.
Yeah.
And so now we're going to Grethor.
And so Stovercor is where the honoured dead go and Greythor is
where the dishonoured...
That's really good, isn't it?
She gets hit by the batlether and then she wakes up in the in the
barge of the dead.
It's not just that, I think, is a good set, and I do think that is
a really good barge set.
It's the light and they're throwing it.
The wind they're throwing in it and he's doing what we said about
the Gorn episode the other day.
He's tilt in the angle to suggest movement and just to make it a
bit more visually exciting.
I think it's really great.
I think the scenes shot in this set are great.
Okay, I'm going to watch the lamps. because I, do you think the
lamps, the lamps would give away?
Yeah, they're swaying.
But yeah.
Look, you can't think about moving the camera and the lamps, all
right?
That's too much, but no one is trek.
And so she's been branded...
Yeah, I don't like all these pilots towards women.
It's horrible Well, yeah, but I mean, so it happens to both of
them, but it also happens to the other guy here.
So we have some other guy.
What's that guy, hitch car or something?
No, Hitchcar is the the 1st one.
Just throw a lot of consoners together, you each time.
Yeah.
So we have...
Oh, look at that album.
The camera is tilting.
I think that's really nice.
I know it's simple, but it's way more than effort than they
normally go to.
But I'm just saying, are they tilting the set because they're not
tilting in the foreground so much.
And they can sometimes do that.
Yeah.
So this guy is Harris from Enterprise from Section 31.
What, from series 4?
The one who keeps talking to Malcolm Reed all the time.
Yeah.
Is he liaisons?
He's in for the uniform, and he is in a bunch of enterprise
episodes.
He's the captain of the other ship in fully uniform who tells
Cisco he's got to stop going after Eddington.
I do remember that There's a couple of people in this, aren't
there, that do the rounds in Star Trek?
Well, no, because there's only there's basically only 4 guest
stars.
So there's this guy, exposition Klingon, who is also, doesn't
believe in the Klingon afterlife either.
Did you say Exposition Klingon?
He's exposition.
We get Sherman Augustus, who has a big career, but this is his
only Star Trek.
See, they're shoeing off the set there, but it's not a long shot
is it?
So you can't see it in its entirety.
No, you see it.
That's good.
Yeah, I seem to remember exterior shots of the barge, but this is
all we get.
They're just practical ones.
They're built in the set.
This guy's jumped overboard in this now.
He's in the CGIC now.
Sea of blood.
So great.
That's that is actually pretty good.
But sort of like sea snakes, aren't they?
They sort of...
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Or later on.
I can't remember the word that gets used.
But later on, um, the, the word that, um, uh, that morale uses, she
uses that word to describe B'lana, she thinks B'lana is not real.
So there's some kind of supernatural something or other.
And so this is the 1st Klingon or something, isn't it?
Like, this is the guy.
And he...
So there's some story about the Clons killing their gods.
It gets mentioned in Dax's wedding, doesn't it?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, God, I do know the story.
I've forgotten It's all very theatrically done. their gods.
And then the fella's very lonely.
And then the other the other Klingon woman heart comes along and
they come together and they're stronger than they were
individually and et cetera, et cetera.
Yeah.
So his quarter is his name.
No, that's not right.
I've, I think I've got the, I think I've got those actors mixed up
but I think this is Harris, this guy.
You know, it is a fairly fully realised society.
Within all the episodes, all the Klingon episodes, you know, we do
touch on how they do a wedding ceremony. you know, the afterlife
the political system.
It's covered quite thoroughly.
In fact, it's, I think the, the, the Klingons kill their gods
thing might be a throwaway line in an X-Gen episode.
And certainly, like, um, Grethor, I think might get mentioned for
the 1st time in Devil's Dew.
Really?
But yeah.
Yeah.
Well, Antra, remember, appears as, um, is it Fekla?
You know, the monster, the guardian of Grethor. like a sort of
Klingon monster, but with sort of teeth and a sort of slavering
mouth and stuff like that.
Like, she just appears because Kang tells Kirk in Day of the Dove
there's no Klingon devil, but the underworld does have a
guardian.
We don't get to see Fekla, but Fekla does get mentioned here.
Okay, he's morale arriving.
So, morole is uh, Dr. Calandra from your favourite episode, nor
the Battle to the Strong.
So she's the doctor that runs the hospital, you know, who talks to
Bashir quite a lot and says, the Klingons are coming and all of
this.
Right, okay.
That's sort of like your normal Star Trek stuff.
I'm sure she had a bit more fun doing this on that ship, you know
rocking about wind and lightning going and dressed up as a boy.
She's literally 4 years older than Roxanne.
I know, isn't that great?
I mean, you can sort of tell, right, but just go with it.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So this is real.
She's woken up and this is her actual, when we're on the ship, that
is genuinely voyager.
Okay, thank you.
I'm so pleased to you.
And none of that Klingon stuff is leaking into Voyager, except
look at her hand.
And that's actually, you know, like the doctor just kind of
assumes that it's part of the injury that she got on the shuttle
or whatever, but she had it on, you know, on the barge.
Yeah.
My God, that was a 2nd Tom Paris scene where he just was concerned
husband.
Oh, no, not husband at this point. quite yeah, concerned, horrible
boyfriend.
I liked this scene a lot.
Not really because of what they were saying, just because of their
body language.
I could really tell it was 2 actors that are used to working
together because they get a lot of scenes together and just 2
characters that are comfortable being around each other.
There's a lot with how tactile people are on screen together.
And I just like how he sits on his bed on her bed, sorry, very
comfortably and talks to her here.
It's not very interesting what they're saying, but they're mine.
Well, this is more religion stuff and this actually plays into the
end of the episode.
So she says, she asks him about his religious beliefs, and we know
that he's a fake Native American.
We're in trouble, whatever we were asking Chakotay about his
beliefs, yeah.
Doesn't he say, he does mention his people, the beliefs of his
people at some point.
I'm like, okay.
He talks about his grandfather.
And so she says that she had this sort of afterlife, you know, near
death experience thing.
And he says, well, that's gonna be what you hallucinate because
your mother went on and on about that.
So it's unsurprising.
You experience that.
And his line is, you're being too literal about this, that these
images are produced by your brain and you need to think about what
they mean more deeply.
But yeah, here, it's your subconscious dream, right?
to tell you something.
Yeah.
So he thinks that she's wrong to think that this is actually a
literal afterlife and that she has to go back and save her
mother.
And that's where the episode lands, I think.
And I think that's a little bit of a shame because it would have
been more fun had it been more ambiguous had we not known that
this wasn't the afterlife that she'd been experiencing.
That line there.
Did you see it?
so on the nose.
She goes, I'm an engineer.
I've spent my life inured in schematics.
I'm like, oh, please.
Who talks like that, you know?
Brian Fullo, will you try again, please?
Well, he did, and he's done much better. got fired for it as
well.
Oh, I suppose, but again, it is 2 characters on this show that
normally just talk techno babble and, you know, bridge politics or
whatever, actually talking about faith.
So it's an effect, but this too, like the way she's playing this.
She's so good.
Like, that's really real.
She's saying, my mother's been on my mind a lot lately, which is
just an unusual voyager thing.
Do you know what I mean?
Because it sort of acknowledges that they do things that aren't
just the episodes that we see them in.
And it's been 10 years since she's talked to her.
No, I know.
She's eluding to it, but yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, but it's like, I show now.
A show now would sort of lead up to this, wouldn't it?
and lead away from it.
You'd have a moment in an episode.
Now, but in Voyager, they just do it in that one episode and then
we move on.
That's right.
And so again, here is the worst, Robert.
Here's the worst Robert with her.
Oh, come on, he says, it can't be that bad.
Yeah, yeah.
Shut up to embarrass.
Well, again, you know, oh, yeah.
Anyway, I just think that's what you're loathsome in this
episode.
I just think he's absolutely loathsome, Paul.
And I feel like that's the voyager's biggest era in its 7 year run
is ever giving a shit about Tom Paris.
Is it?
know whether it's because he's the straight white guy on the show
and so they want to foreground him more, you know, like, and he
has to be, but he's here to mansplain what she should do at all
times.
Like, I just find him... you know what?
What do you care if that's if that's, you know, that you said your
mum to the afterlife and all.
Go wait on Paris.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I care because I love my mom, all right?
Yeah, yeah, like he makes no attempt to understand her is all
about telling her that she's wrong.
No, she said to him, I have a chance to rescue my mother from this
terrible fate.
He's going, well, it's not real anyway.
Don't worry about it, you know.
Yeah, that's right.
The wedding would be off for me at this point.
Oh, no.
He gets one great one.
What do you mean, Nathan?
You want to go back?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's hard to know how to react.
Yeah, and I suppose he is.
He said they are respectful what you believe in. you're starting
to scare me now.
That's it.
You're starting scare me.
Let me talk about my feelings for a while here.
Can we send to this conversation on how I feel about it?
This entire episode might be built around your difficult
relationship with your mother and the Klingon afterlife.
But can we please talk about my feelings?
That's right.
So, and then the lease too, because one of the things, you know
Janeway is a scientist and she's had episodes that have portrayed
her as being adversarial towards religion, what we rolled one and
then said, no.
And then, like when she says, I'm going to let religious practises
go so far, but only so far, you don't.
I do too.
And I love the fact that she chooses an extreme example.
What have your religious practises meant you sacrifice babies on
the ship?
See, I think that's really negative and offensive.
And I think that that's a bit of a weird thing. place for her to
come.
If I say something about me, then I'd laugh my head off at that
line.
No, no, but you just, but you just say, come on, no one
sacrificing babies.
Do you know what I mean?
I'm doing a thing in a controlled environment or whatever.
And but now she's just saying, this wasn't real.
And she says it's real to me.
And what do we, where do we go now?
Do you know what I mean?
How can we possibly argue this?
And the trouble with these scenes is, these things are always
pointless because you very often.
It happened when B'Elana and Tom started having their relationship
together and they were getting all kissy kissy in the corridors
and the Jeffries tubes and things like this.
And Janeway went, there's only so far I'm going to allow
interpersonal relationships on this ship and then she just lets it
happen.
And the same with this episode, she says, it's only so far let
religious experiences go on in this ship and then it happens
anyway.
So they're always...
But you see, I think it happens because, you know, she's put in
the position of a parent.
Don't you think?
And one of the things that you do when you're a parent is that you
have to let people make their dumb decisions.
You can't just make rulings and forbid things.
You sometimes have to let your kids do a thing that you think is a
bad idea.
Um, and here, well, here we go.
Here's Tom, you know, give his view and take on this.
Yeah.
That's got to be an easier one.
Go to church or something.
Oh, Tom.
Yeah, yeah, church.
It's a Christian thing.
Klingon's doing our man.
Thank you, Tom, for all the answers.
Too kind.
No, no, he's going to find all the answers.
He's going to solve it.
There you go.
There's a mild threat there where he goes, I just hope there isn't
next time.
Oh no, I think that means that we I hope you don't die of this.
I do like the line.
You come back.
You came back from this thing as a born again.
Klingon was pretty good.
I hope she doesn't die as well because do you remember how much of
a cunt he was last time she dies?
Awful.
Inside and revolution on Voyager.
And all that bad acting.
I would not even kiss him now.
Don't touch her.
Spin it for you.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
And none of that was about comforting her.
That was all about making sure he was okay.
Well, I think in terms of the script is just someone objecting to
it, isn't it?
Someone saying, you know, to bring a bit of drama to what's
actually going on.
Yeah, but it always has to be him, doesn't it?
Going back to, actually, it's something I said to you in our chat
Red.
And that is that this is very functional Voyager plotting, that
all of this stuff.
The thing appearing in the Delta Quadrant, Neelix doing his
party.
Janeway objecting to the thing.
Tom Paris shouting his head off.
All of it is cookie cutter Voyager.
Yeah, from HB to C.
I think the difference with this episode is that a lot of the time
the character stuff does hit, mostly because of the actors and
sometimes because of the writing.
Um, and just because I think the barge is so interesting and
realised. that it's somewhere that's worth going to, you know?
Yeah, so here we go.
So they're kind of putting it asleep, aren't they, so that she can
appear back on the barge.
And let's look, the camera just goes there and looks at the worst
Robert, just so that we know how he feels.
But I do like Jangwei going, kapla.
Yeah.
She's object anymore, is she?
She just, oh, off you go.
Yeah, this is so much more interesting than the voyager says.
Can't we go here for the rest of the series?
Well, it's a bit monochrome.
It's very brown.
And she looks fabulous in that sort of warrior's outfit, doesn't
she?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We should see more of that.
And I do like that because, you know, she's been dragged off
Voyager.
So she's wearing her Voyager outfit the 1st time.
She turns up here.
She's here deliberately by choice.
And so when she turns up, she's in a Klingon outfit, it makes
sense.
You know what it means?
It feels like, because it's all about smoking there, right?
A wind's sort of whipping it around.
It feels like they're facing the elements, like when we go down to
Voyager colony planets.
It never feels like there's any weather at all.
It's just sort of the lighting grid above them, you know, telling
us whether it's bad or night.
It does actually feel like it feels like they're sort of
outsider.
No, they're not outside for once, but...
Well, the thing about the enemy in Star Trek, the Next
Generation.
That's reasonable.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and that's just that's when they bought the women's machine
I'm honest.
Exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
We're going to get some money out of this tonight.
Never got to work.
Stop Ryan leaves at me enough, enough.
Right, get the rain going.
Come on.
Well, it just looks a bit less like the studio.
You're right.
It looks a little bit like the real world, just like those scenes
you know, once they start learning to do sunlight in the studio
that helps a bit as well.
Yeah.
And in fact, you know what?
Latter-day 90s trek, they do learn how to light that colony set.
Like kids day and night.
They do get there.
It takes a long time.
Well, I think the inner light is where I remember it really, really
well as well.
There's scenes where they go off and do the planting and it's all
filmed outside a dusk and they get the sort of that sort of golden
light in perfect in the colonies there as well.
The colony said, Jesus Christ.
What are we doing here?
We could be doing great things with our lives.
I wanted to give you Anna, Belana.
Oh my god.
No, I would like to say to anyone listening that.
Every single time I've said the Lana at the end of a line I've
quoted.
It's in fact not there, but I just feel like it belongs there.
It does, I think.
Yeah, she actually hangs a head on it, doesn't she?
We're on the barge of the dead and we're having the same argument
and it's like literally the same argument that comes up in every
Balana focussed episode that we ever do.
So...
Well, I mean, I do like the fact that here the focus is her mother
and in lineage, the focus is her father.
So we kind of get that so for both of them.
So it's a kind of fleshed out family by the end.
Neither one of them quite gets it right, but... no, that's right.
And I like this too.
I actually really like this.
She can't come back and perform the ritual and then just have the
doctor wake her up and it doesn't work.
You know, the 1st Klingon guy, Cortar, or whatever.
Like he, um, he just says, what do you think?
I was going to be tricked by that.
You know, this is the afterlife.
It's real.
You know, you can't just come in and do some Star Trek shit.
And she won't accept it either.
She doesn't want...
I would rather save that. damnation with what little honour you've
left me, then cheat my way into Stovercore.
Yeah.
This fella at the wheel is having a great time.
He is pretty good.
Yeah.
So she's got to take her mother's place now.
You know, I'm going to, does that mean she's going to get shoved
off the ship and eaten by those terrible snakes?
Or she's just going to stay on the bar?
turn up at the end.
She stays on the barge until it reaches Greth or and then she has
to go in Greth or and that does happen because the plan doesn't
work.
They can't wake her up in Sick Bay.
And so she actually does end up going into Greth or we're almost
at Greth or now.
So can I tell you about the special effect of how they realise the
doors?
Yeah.
Hang on.
Please go.
Oh, here we go.
The Gates of Grethel, one of the most complicated shots of the
show, combining Dan Curry's map painting with Photoshop pictures
CGI environment modelling, and digital muse coals, and water to
complete the effect.
You're yawning.
Yeah, no, sorry.
The depths of research I've done for this and you're yawning.
It's very interesting.
It's 3 things that come together to create that effect and it does
look primitive now.
But I think then I was very impressed.
Yeah, look, and and like because it is an attempt to do something
that we haven't seen before, I'm there for it.
Look, now she's got the brand on her face.
It's the sort of thing. remember when we went to Vagra 5 or
whatever it was, Met Armos, you know, and it was a fabulous oil
slick and all of that.
We said, you know what?
It's shit, but it's weird.
And they sort of lose that a little bit.
Yeah, there it is.
They look.
Yeah, it does look pretty great, doesn't it?
I'm not sure I'd want to step over those hot coals, if I'm
honest.
Yeah, and like it needs to look kind of lurid and hyper real
anyway, because it's a dreamscape or whatever.
So the fact that it doesn't look particularly realistic is fine.
I don't think that's a problem. when the door's open, it gets even
more melodramatic and all the fires of hell are raging behind the
doors.
It does seem hard, doesn't it?
It doesn't seem, well, they're great. doesn't seem hard.
There are some spars, you know, where you can step over hot coals
like this.
I can't say I... any of them.
Oh, yeah, look at the CGI flames on there, not too great, are
they?
Oh, pretty great, aren't they?
It's after effects.
I think they're just trying to, you know, highlight it's quite
unpleasant there.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, then it's like hell.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it's just like our, you know, like Christian mythology around
hell, I guess.
And look, the Kleon symbol upside down is the symbol of Grethor.
Do you notice that?
above the gates?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, wait.
It does...
Does that mean she's nearly dead?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. how you get Deanna back to life in man of the
people.
With the usual skill, I might ask.
It's just pressing a hyperspray to someone's neck, really, but
there we go.
It does add weight to the fact that all those times when we've
talked about dishonour in starting TNG and DS9, you know, this is
what they're facing if they do dishonourable acts.
So I suppose it does add a bit of weight to all of that.
Yeah, but this is where it goes to shit, I think.
And so Greth or, it turns out, is, as usual, just the Voyager set
with some lighting changed and all the regular actors.
The camera on a table. weirdly.
Yeah.
And, and, like, I feel the trouble is here that Robert Picardo can
pull off this sort of, um, sort of the evil acting and Ethan
Phillips perhaps can't.
Yeah, but I actually just think the problem with this is it's so
fucking tired.
Like how many times?
I mean, we still do it on Discovery, I think.
Do we have the ship's corridors standing in for the, you know, a
dreamscape or an interior of someone's mind or something like
that?
And it, well, see, those fecla...
I mean, well done.
Have you noticed how they've pumped smoke into the corridor there
and they've got the lights coming from above?
It's, it's, it looks different from usual.
I know, I know, yeah, but we found it a 1000000 times, aren't we?
You know?
Yeah exactly.
And what's the implication here, that B'lana is in hell on Voyager
because she's a scientist and not a Klingon?
No, I think that what's happening is this calls back to the
conversation that she had with a medium, Robert, before where he
said, look, this isn't a literal afterlife.
This is a dreamscape and you need to understand it on that level.
So if you just go in there thinking, this is literally you saving
your mother from damnation, that's not what's going on here, but
there is something going on here and you need to learn something.
And so this is this, it now becomes what that's about.
So all of the dreamscape that she's experiencing in this near
death experience she's having is all about her.
And so now we have all the characters wandering around talking
about her and what she's like and she has.
Yeah, see, he's Chakotah actually saying that to her, are you
interpreting these?
These are symbols in your subconscious, and that's something
that's come from that conversation that she had with him before
although that might not have been real.
Anyway, it doesn't, yeah, no. in one brilliant moment going, you
know, this is what has brought your dishonour, Balana, and to the
gates of Greth.
When she gets to camp it up a bit.
She wonderful.
But look, and so here is Miral, but in Janeway's uniform, right?
And it looks like we're on the barge now, the way it's being shot
even though we're still on the Voyager set, you know, like it's
still those Dutch angles and the brown and all of that.
She goes, forget the ritual.
It's meaningless.
Like God, somebody said it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it.
But that's it.
So this is where it just becomes really, really overwrought, I
think, because it's all about what we know about B'Elana from her
one paragraph bio.
And, you know, it's the same conflict that occurs in every B'Elana
episode.
So... just like lineage, people just shouting hysterically at each
other.
That's not dramatic.
I think it is, but it's not.
It's daytime soap drama.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's a good job.
I did really like, I really liked her mother saying, um, I'll see
you in...
Stovercorn, or maybe when you get home.
I do really like that line.
And that was underplayed.
So he actually had a bit of weight to it.
And I did like seeing her in the uniform as well because it is
sort of making explicit that Janeway is the surrogate mother.
Yeah, exactly right.
And then that is then paid off in the last scene.
Beautifully paid off in the last scene.
Silently, I think.
I don't think they say a word.
No, but my God, you act as to your best work on Voyager when
you're not given terrible dialogue, say.
That's right.
Oh, she wheels the bat lift quite well, but yeah, this is...
Tell me what you want me to be. blah, blah, blah.
A good star beat, officer.
A good marquee.
A lover.
A daughter?
Jesus like, come on.
Nathan, just tell me what you want from me. that's right We only
want you.
We're not your enemies, defend yourself.
God.
And all of this is, oh, my God.
And then she throws the weapon away and stuff.
But like, she's not very much like that.
Like she is generally just doing plot functions and stuff.
Yeah, that's quite a good shot where she's going into the sea
yeah.
Flash of lightning just made it come alive.
Yeah.
But yeah, all of that stuff, don't you think?
It's just sort of bullshit, really, and a little bit overraw.
Like who thinks like that?
I don't think anyone in real life says, I'm so tired of fighting.
They're so tired of fighting.
That's definitely a soap line, isn't it?
But if you think about her as a precursor to Starbucks, you know
who is religious, and who is properly defensive and has things to
prove, and it behaves like that all the time, not just in episodes
where it's about that, where I think that, you know, Starbucks is
not a 1000000 miles away from B'Elana's character.
It's like B'lana Dunright.
I don't think?
I can see him taking this seed of a character and creating
Starbuck out there.
And that's sort of the fire in the belly as well, you know, but
all the anxiety is underneath.
They're, oh, their look.
This.
That's so nice.
The weight, oh, there's time.
Fuck off, Robert.
This is not about you, this scene.
Go away.
Like, he touches the small of a back, the fucking creep.
It's having a moment.
They're having a moment, the 2 of them, you know?
Yeah, he has to come up and inject himself into it.
No, I like the way the Kate Margaret holds her back that way. in a
way that when you're really, really protecting somebody.
But Kate is also smiling and a bit surprised.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, she's surprised and pleased that this is what this is what's
happening.
I just thought it was so real.
It was a really really good moment. and um Roxanne buries herself
in Kate Mulberry's neck as well.
It's just, it's just, it's so intimate.
And yeah, you don't really get a lot of this in Voyager.
Really.
And you could.
Like, you know, the thing that discovery does is that everyone
loves everyone.
Do you know what I mean?
and some people find that tire somewhere over the top, but this
would have worked in Voyager because, you know, Tuvoc and Janeway
are old friends.
You know, B'Elana is reminded of her mother by Janeway.
Janeway cares about Harry because, you know, he's about the age
her son would be if she had a son and he doesn't have his mother
with him.
You know, all of these things are built into the premise, and
these people aren't just workmates.
They live on the ship.
So they could be doing this stuff.
They spent so much time telling us that they're a family.
I mean, Janeway states it a lot.
We never see it.
Show us.
Yeah.
Whereas actually, I think...
You know I always make the DSM comparison.
But I think because on DS9 it's made up of families, so courtroom
and nogs, are they always touching each other, relationships, Cisco
and Cassidy, they're always touching each other.
Kira and Odo, like Bashir and O'Brien, weirdly, quite a tactile
relationship.
You know, so you see it.
Evidence in front of you all the time.
They don't, I don't think once DS9 has to say, oh, what a family
we are.
You know, we just see it every week.
Yeah, it's kind of a shame, isn't it?
That is the actual proof of how good it could work.
Yeah, that's right.
That was a great moment.
And there was that scene with her and with Kate and her, maybe it
doesn't work.
Like maybe Kate isn't properly persuaded by any sort of decent
argument, but it's just well played by both of them.
And I don't know.
What I will say about Bulger the Dead is I know I have been mean
about Bulger in the past and talked about the 2 trilogies of
terror in series 3 and series 5.
Here you have the trilogy of, oh, I need a positive word that
begins with T. Help me out here.
I don't know, tremendously.
Trilogy of triumph. there we go There we go, even better.
You get from more survival instinct, which is a really great 7 of
9 episode.
It's an episode all about where they crash land on a planet, her
and a few Borg, back when she was Borg, and they've all got their
individuality back for a 2nd and none of them know how to deal
with it. really focusses on that brilliantly.
But as a subplot, Voyager visit is there's pleasure world, where
there's a sun in orbit.
So there's sunlight coming through the windows.
I can remember it vividly.
They're all getting to all sorts of hijinks.
It's a really brilliant episode.
Then this, which works really, really well.
And then next you get Tinker Taylor Tenor Spy, which is a
brilliant doctor episode, and it's a fantastic voyager comedy
episode, and those are not words I put together very often.
I remember watching series 6 as it came out and I watched those 3
episodes in succession.
I even quite like Scorpion 2 at the time, I think, as well
thinking, my God, Voyager, it's on its own now.
DS9 has ended and they're really delivered, unfortunately, then
Alice comes after that.
And then the rest of season 6 goes jarringly between being superb
like Muse and Blink and Van Eye and Memorial and just agonisingly
terrible.
Like, the one with the, the, the midgets that will sing opera, and
oh, God, I could go on.
But just for this tiny little period.
It really felt as if Voyager was going to start delivering.
And I think Ron Moore's got something to do with that.
So I'm pleased we've covered this episode because it's a shining
beacon of light.
Voyages rum.
Yeah.
All right, it's the end of the episode and it's time for us to
find out what we're doing next time.
It was my go last week, and so it's your turn now.
What series are we going to be choosing from?
Well, I do have the opportunity here to talk about the fabulous
new feature on untitled Star Trek project.com that you have added
nothing to do with me, of course.
And that is, um, what we calling it, the coverage page where you
can see every single series of Star Trek, how many episodes we've
covered of each in order, if you wish to select that, and the
percentages that we've covered.
And it is clear that some things are sorely underrepresented in
this podcast.
I'm just very quickly, actually.
Do you mind?
I'm very quickly gonna tell everybody.
Strange New Worlds and short tricks, 20% covered.
Star Trek, prodigy, 15.79%.
Star Trek movies, 15.38%.
The original series, 15% animated series, 13.64%, discovery
13.56%.
Picard 13.51%.
Somehow, unbelievably, given how many we've done of them, in 90s
trek, coming at the bottom of the pole here.
DS9, 13.29, Voyager, 12.50, lower decks, 12.50, Enterprise, 10.31
and next generation, 10.23.
Now I was looking at this.
And I was like, how?
It feels like we've done a lot of next gen.
I think we've done 32 parters with next gen, which is obviously
more running time, but less episodes because they're counted as
well.
No, so this is the number of actual episodes of the show that
we've covered, not the number of episodes that we have recorded.
So when we do a two-part of that counts as two.
There are 176 episodes of Star Trek the Next Generation.
We've done 18 of them.
A few of them have been two partisan, so we've actually recorded
somewhat less, less, less, less.
One possible direction we can go in then, and that is to choose
the lowest.
Star Trek, the Next Generation.
We're going to watch one of those.
So are you ready for me to press one?
I'm ready.
Oh, come on.
Use a code of honour.
We're definitely going to do it.
You're a random Star Trek.
The next generation episode is season five, episode five
disaster.
Oh, I love disaster.
That's wonderful.
We've talked about that all the time.
When we talk about disaster.
The game and what's the one where they all become kids?
Oh, rascals.
Rascals.
We always talk about.
I mean, well, that's a foregone conclusion.
I'm putting my phone down right now.
Okay, we're done. brilliant.
Disaster.
What an absolute fake.
I think Ron Moore's got something to do with that episode.
Is that the one that's written by committee?
I swear there's about 16 names on that screen.
It's possible that each subplot is written by a different group of
people.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, wow. awesome.
Wow.
And we get to see.
Paul Patrick Stewart stuck with those terrible kids that can't act
in the turbo lift. for the whole episode.
Oh, it's wonderful.
Oh, and Marina, sitting in the captain's chair, like she owns the
place. giving birth to Keiko's baby.
So good.
You've been listening to entitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
We're online at untitledstar trekproject.com where you can find
subscription links and links to our social media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 23rd of April 2024 and released
on the 10th of May.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek, the Next Generation.
Disaster.
Oh, that's great choice.
That's so good.
Thank you randomiser.
Forgive me. a good next generation episode. fun.
That's so fun. was really great.
That was the 1st one.
Yeah.
Sometimes sometimes it lands.
Let's just see what I would have got next.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, that's a good one again.
Relics.
Yeah, relics is not bad.
Oh, yesterday's Enterprise.
My God, what have you got this?
Setter.
Good episodes.
Oh there you go.
That would have been fun anyway, though.
Night, night terrors.
Night terrors.
Who are you?
Do you remember the flights are entirety episode for the Doctor
Who night terrace episode?
The, um...
Wait a sec.
I think I can find it.
Yeah, running a 2nd it's 20 past 11.
Wait a sec.
Yeah.
Uh, so this is Night Terrors, and I do the hello, dear listener
and welcome back to Flight through Entirety, blah, blah, blah, blah
blah.
Well, we've been trapped in this rift for nearly a month now, and
the crew of the USS Britain, have made no effort at all to lighten
our mood.
As we descend into chaos and madness, it looks like only
Councillor Troy's one moon circling can save us from our night
terrace.
Because she, her bum.
Her massive, generous ass.
It's wonderful and so good.
So good.
How did they shoot that?
They just shoot her from below.
I guess.
Jesus Christ.
I mean, when we do eventually do that one.
Believe next chance, it feels like we've done loads.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So the ones that are under, like the ones that are under the, you
know, the, uh, so next gen, Enterprise and lower decks and Voyager
are all under the 12.69%, which is the total.
So we've done 12.69% of Star Trek itself.
Deep Space 9 comes in just above that at 13.29, 23 episodes
Voyager with 21 episodes.
You realise that.
If there's 9 comes in at the highest and we've only done 23
episodes, we haven't actually covered a full season of some amount
of episodes of any one of those series.
No, because that's 14% or something, isn't it?
It's got 6 seasons of each of them to go.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
We'll be doing this...
Yeah, I'm already there half the time.
Oh, the hell.
All right.
Well, I enjoyed that one.
Yeah, that was fun.
That's a good one