Hi, Joe. Hi.
So, we finished an entire series of Star Trek, just 2 weeks ago
with the counter clock incident, we said farewell to the animated
series, and tonight, we are saying farewell not just to Star Trek
Enterprise, but also to 90s trek.
So this is these are the Voyages, series 4, episode 22, broadcast
on the 13th of May 2005, which seems like an impossibly long time
ago.
Have you noticed the pattern as well?
So we're getting sort of, as we're saying goodbye to all of these
shows, an untitled Star Trek project, we are ever doing more
popular shows as we go along.
We started with TNG, which no one likes.
Then we did Voyager, which some people liked.
Then we did the animated series, which obviously everybody likes.
And now we're doing Enterprise, which was the rounding jaw of the
franchise.
So I had always been taught to regard this as some kind of war
crime.
This is the worst thing that ever happened. that this was an
absolute disaster and an absolute slap in the face to the dozens
of loyal enterprise fans that existed at the time.
You think as many as that, do you?
A dozen. yeah possibly.
I actually thought that this was actually quite a nice tribute to
enterprise and perhaps more than a series, which was, I think, you
know, by any measures kind of a failure.
It's sort of more than it deserved, like a generous treatment of a
show that didn't really, in the end, ever quite work.
It's a series of unfortunate mistakes, isn't it?
It's like 2 course corrections.
And then when they finally make the course correction in the right
direction, they get the shop.
Yeah, yeah.
What the hell?
But I just, you know, I think it's fair enough for Paramount to
say, well, look, we've given you 4 seasons to get this right.
You know, like, we're not going to pour any, because it can't be a
cheap show to make.
It must have been maybe 3 or 4000000 per episode.
Maybe.
Yeah, yeah.
That's not cheap, is it?
No.
Yeah.
I mean, look, like, I read up on what Jamma had to say, and he
gives his 2 stars, so he doesn't think...
He's a little generous on Jamas.
He doesn't think it's too much worse than Bem.
Let's just say.
And he says...
You're never going to let that go, are you?
He points out that I think that the news that Marina and Jonathan
Frakes were going to be in it had leaked or had been announced or
something and everyone was losing their shit and already saying
how terrible it was going to be.
You feel as if the the sort of the news of that meant that no one
gave this a chance.
Well, I think people came out determined to dislike it.
And I have to say, the big criticism is, I think, kind of
incomprehensible to me, in that, the idea is that every week we've
been tuning in for 45 minutes of real space events from the
distant future, but this week...
So compellingly done.
I can't tell any difference from reality.
And this week we're just watching a TV program with William Riker
and that's less realistic.
And and we've addressed this before because I think we talked
about the people who think that we're wasting time in batter bing
batter bang helping to save the fictional bar of a fictional
character when we're on a fictional space station, which is also
crude by fictional people.
So people.
Yeah, they're fictional.
Or, you know, the people who don't like the visitor because it
never really happened.
And so, like, you're talking about there, you know.
I know.
All of that stuff, I think, is sort of bafflingly weird, because
this is an episode of Enterprise, and it's an episode of
Enterprise that we couldn't, I think, have got without some kind
of narrative Fiji Widginess, because they must have assumed that
Enterprise would go for 7 years.
I don't think they had an end in sight.
It's not like Voyager, where we know that the Andes they come
home.
It's not like Deep Space 9 where from about series 4 onwards, we
know that it's going to end with the end of the war.
It doesn't have an ending site.
So what do we do at the end of it, right?
And I think that.
Well, I think that having them found the Federation is a thing.
Having, you know, this be the story of the ship that went out into
space and and forged alliances and met people and stuff and
eventually led to the foundation of the Federation.
Now, the show in no way tells that story, you know, like from week
to where you can use.
It stops telling it in the last series.
Yeah, yeah.
And it probably, and I actually said it would have come to
fruition in the fifth.
Yeah, but they don't have the 5th suddenly and they've got the
weird situation where...
They had us one episode left. just do it now Instead of doing this
TNG episode.
Oh, in the last scene, they do.
At the end of the Foundation of the Federation.
The whole thing is about them heading towards this meeting where
Archer has to give a speech and it's the foundation of the
Federation.
Now, the episode itself is barely about that at all.
But it does end with that.
And like, I don't think we could have done a seven-year jump, you
know, like we would never have had a 7 years later suddenly at 7
years later.
That's weird.
And so they have the framing story in order to motivate that, I
think.
So the previous ending that we had last week in Terra Prime is
that it turns out human beings are slightly better than our worst
white supremacists, and we'll go back to the drawing board for a
bit, but we're heading towards the federation.
And we do that in a scene that is visually incredibly boring
because it is just a crappy hotel conference room that they're
using as a location.
And we have a speech and, you know, that speech is already fine.
And that kind of ends it.
But I think that that giving it a kind of attempting to give it a
more mythic and more spectacular ending is the right call.
Now, I think they swing and miss in all sorts of ways, but I don't
think that the episodes are mis forgotten.
I think that this is what they should have tried to do.
I think that is a heroic reading on this episode, but
unfortunately, I was bored stiff watching it to the point where I
had to do it in 3 lumps.
I am that incomprehensible person that you were talking about
because I really don't like the framing device to this and I was
taken out of the action every time Troy and Riker turned up in the
back of scenes.
I know this is a TV show and I know it isn't real, but it is so
distracting to watch these things play out and having Marina
Curtis in the background going, What the this?
It's just baffling.
I would have done anything to have watched Star Trek with Marina
Surtis on the couch next to me commenting on it.
I can't think of anything better than that.
It just spells out artifice in every frame.
And I know it is a real TV show.
Well, it's not for me because it took me out of it and I just
didn't care about what was unfolding because I'm like, well, none
of this is important.
What's important is the decision he's making on the Pegasus.
I wanted to watch the Pegasus after watching this to say just what
I can't even remember what decision he's trying to make.
Do they make it clear in the episode?
Yeah, no, they do.
So he has sworn to Admiral Pressman that he's not going to reveal
a secret about the Pegasus being fitted with a cloak, a cloaking
device, and he decides to disobey that command.
And he decides to trust Captain Picard.
And I think that that's like, that doesn't really dovetail very
well with what's going on in the episode, to be honest.
Like, I, you know, it's Tripp's decision to punch Archer in the
face, which, you know, you would want to do, I would think, uh, in
order to sort of save his life and then kill the bad guys.
And that's what motivates Reich, it's a kind of trust Picard.
And there's more to it than that because he does talk to Tripp
about his relationship with Archer in a scene that I think is
actually pretty good. far more invested in that that I was in the
internet.
So I get why I don't care about Enterprise and so I'm not angry
about this.
I just don't care about this and I think that's even worse.
I have no reaction to it.
Tripp dies at the end of this episode.
I have no emotional reaction to it whatsoever.
I was just like, well, this is just a record of the past.
Never mind.
But it's the same people, shot the same way, doing the same
acting.
All of that.
I don't understand why it makes a difference. the best scenes in
Star Trek and none of them would be improved by having somebody
else walking around the back of the scene and making it all
mythic.
It just I just came out of it completely.
So there is a disconnect for me throughout the entire episode.
So do you have sympathy with the people who say, I don't care
about Vic Fontaine because he's a fictional character and why are
we wasting time on the holiday?
When you mentioned better being better bang?
Good, good point.
But that's a bit of fluff.
That's a bit of fluff in the middle of the last season just before
all the big important real stuff starts happening.
Whereas this is the series finale.
This is where we say goodbye to these people.
I don't think I'm saying goodbye to the Enterprise crew.
I feel as if I'm watching a next generation episode where they're
you know, reading a book about enterprise.
I think you're given plenty of chance to see the crew for the last
time.
And I think they give the crew the sort of time that they weren't
able to give them in the much more action heavy to part of it
preceded.
The right people.
Hoshi gets up 3 lines and so disrupted.
They're over and done with in the 1st scene.
Right. them done in the finale.
I mean, you can understand why those actors are pissed.
That Marina is a Jonathan Frakes are getting a 3rd of this episode
and they're in one seat.
They're not in one scene because they each have the chance to talk
to Chef.
So they do actually get, uh, they do get 2 scenes, but it's
probably more amazing. less time.
Yeah.
But beyond beyond the framing device.
Yeah?
I found the performance is muted in this.
I said this to you on the chat.
Nobody really particularly seems invested in this group that
they've got.
They're competent, but nobody's going above and beyond in this
script, acting wise, except possibly Jeffrey Coombs.
I don't think the direction is a cut above either, and whatever
you might say about Endgame, the direction of that was quite
exciting, and there was action, there was fun things and visually
interesting things going on there, and yeah, just a story.
Man, it's so like lustre.
The story is so boring.
Berman and Bragg just can't let go.
They can't give it to Manikoso.
So they come in and they've just got nothing.
The tank is completely empty.
We're going to do, let's go after Strand's child and then have
these green people attack the ship, the end.
That's how we're seeing this show out.
So there's some attempt to tie that back into their 1st mission or
something, but it was clearly referencing an episode that I
haven't seen.
So they've been to Rygel before on their 1st mission in series
one.
So they're trying to sort of top and tail it.
And the problem is, and we've observed this before, if this show
is about founding the Federation, founding the Federation involves
lots of people in rooms doing negotiations and writing contracts
and doing all sorts of boring stuff that we're not going to see on
this.
And so they do something dumb instead.
And I just think that's that, it means that the episode lacks
focus, I think.
And they try and focus it around Tripp's death.
And like, I thought, well, they focus it around that for about 10
minutes.
Well, yeah, yeah, but at the climax of the episode, like it's 10
important minutes.
And they foreshadow it beforehand by having Marina mention it and
they fake it out early on.
We're supposed to think that bit where that panel falls from
underneath him.
Then he's going to die.
That's right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Turns out it's even more boring the way you go.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Then, but, oh, no, no.
I mean, I kind of like the way he goes, but it is like dumb.
You know, like these dumb people come on the sheep and they get
then for no reason and suddenly it's such a giant threat that he
has to, uh, you know, kill himself, even though we faced much more
interesting and deadly threats than these stupid people in their
warp 2 ship or whatever.
What I don't understand is why couldn't they have just done the 2
parts of before leading up into this?
The founding of the federation is happening here?
I don't know, there's a big bomb going off.
They've got to stop the conspiracy of those those evil separatists
or whatever they were coming in and that's how they end it with
them saving the formation of the federation.
Is it because they fixed a day?
So they can't do it now.
I think it is.
Oh, fuck off.
Well, then that's Star Trek fans problem.
Exactly right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I don't think so.
They're that invested in what the fans think, that they won't just
tell a good story.
They'll skip it forward to the point where they've already said it
takes place.
Are we that tied up into this stuff?
Yes, yes.
One of the reasons and I think...
The one that a franchise died.
Well, this is the problem.
This is the absolute problem that the whole franchise has with
continuity.
So it's in the teaser of the outcast that Deanna announces that
this round is Federation Day.
Federation was founded in 2161, so 2s, aces, and 6s are wild, and
that's when it's established that the Federation's founded in
2161.
And so when they set season one in 2151.
They must have known they were never going to make it to
Federation Day.
At some point they're going to have to do a leap.
Or they're going to have to do a leap.
But Star Trek doesn't do that.
And they were never, ever going to do a leap without some kind of
framing story.
No, they do it with a framing story.
Like they were never going to just say 7 years later.
That was never going to happen.
And so they do it with a framing story and they do it with a
framing story, which is about the legacy of enterprise.
And so we go up to the foundation of the federation, but we don't
see it.
Like we have, he walks onto the stage and then it ends, you know
the whole end of the episode is about him writing his speech.
That's the conversation that he has with Tripp as his, as Tripp's
dying.
And he goes out onto the stage.
He's about to make the speech and it ends, but what we do see is
the legacy that the show has.
And I think the legacy of Enterprise actually is far, far better
dealt with in those old scientists in strange new worlds because
you've had Boimler and Mariner geeking out over the crew of the
Enterprise.
And then you have the Enterprise crew geeking out about the crew
of the NXO one.
And when they mention the characters by name, the 2 characters
they mentioned by name are Travis and Hoshi, the 2 people of
colour and the 2 most neglected characters in the entire history
of the show.
They need the exposure in other shows that they didn't get here.
I absolutely think that they're addressing that and that's a
deliberate choice in Strange New Worlds.
But this is sort of trying to do that as well.
And I think for a show that failed, that everyone kind of tried at
that is sad.
Like it is a sad kind of failure.
The only show in the 90s not to make it to its 5th season.
I think...
Is that podcast that Triner and Montgomery do?
We're trying to give this show some sense of relevance, you know?
And now, now, no, this is Delta Flyers that are doing DS9 now
moving on to shows that are sort of a bit better.
I can actually say nice things about.
But, yeah, it is sad because I feel like this is a group of actors
that really wanted to make their mark in this franchise and
spectacularly fail to do that.
Yeah, and I don't think it was their fault.
No, it was, it was, unfortunately, that created exhaustion of the
people in charge.
And I do think there is some studio interference as well.
Bourman always says that.
Well, actually, talking of bourbon.
Shall I give you some quotes before we go in?
Because everyone's got somewhere to say about this?
Not just you and me.
According to Rick Burman, this episode would have been the 4th
season finale, even if it had been picked up for a 5th season, he
did state, however, that if the series had been renewed, Tucker
would still have been killed off, because the episode flash
forward in time.
So when the show came back for a new season, Tucker would still
have been alive.
God.
I mean, isn't that terrible choice?
How does how does it work?
Is it anything other than the end of first?
He die at some point.
Never mind, you know.
Yeah, but how does it ever work?
You know, we've seen the foundation of the Federation.
What the point now?
you know that's ridiculous.
So Berman later said at a Star Trek convention in Las Vegas, this
was a valentine to all the Star Trek shows, bizarre that Voyager
and DS9 don't get mentioned then. don't think it was.
Was it?
I think it's a Valentine to Enterprise.
Well, he says that and then Enterprise just happened to be the
show on at the time.
So he's not agreeing with you there, I'm afraid.
But he also said that it had a cool concept and some great stuff
in it.
However, he found the episode to be languid, I agree.
And not a complete success.
No shit.
Yeah that's probably fair.
Manikoto says that he considered this to be a coder rather than a
true finale of the series. fellow series producer Mike Sussman
considered a two-part story.
Demons and Terra Prime that precede this instalment to be the
actual finale of the Enterprise storyline.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's fair.
I think it's a bit of a limp finale, but I do think it does work
as a finale, and this is something different.
And it's different from any of the other finales we've had, which
I think is part of the problem that people have with it as well.
John Billingsley.
I think he gets 2 scenes in this, doesn't he?
The best thing about the show.
I wasn't wild about the last episode as it is often the case.
I think probably more as made of these things than they should
be.
See, he's always sort of very measured, isn't he?
It arguably should have been more about our stories on the next
generation's cast, and I think the people who were a little put
out perhaps had a point.
It seemed to me from things that I've read or heard that people's
reactions were a little over the top.
I also think they were on some level trying to find a way to say
goodbye or at least goodbye to now for the entire franchise.
And to that extent, I would understand what the thought process
was in wanting to bring in some of the next generation
characters.
So it's sort of batting for both teams there.
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's a reasonably measured view know viewpoint.
Jolene Blaylock, who's...
She doesn't, yeah, she literally says it's appalling.
She goes, I don't know where to start with that one.
Appalling.
She gets some good scenes in it.
Marina Syrtis, personally, I thought this was a good episode.
I just don't think it was a good last episode.
I don't think that's unfair because I think if this had been mid
season, you know, something this lacklaster had been mid-season
I'd have been, well, that was all right. fair enough.
There are plenty of Lack Leicester episodes in mid-T. But not in
series 4 though.
I think the basketball racing series 4 and this is way down there
in terms of this season.
Brandon Bracker apologised to the entire cast of Enterprise for it
and said that he thought he'd made a narcissistic move in trying
to make the episode a Valentine to Star Trek and called it
frappy.
I think that's him dialling it back, isn't it, after the
reaction?
He always does that though.
Like when there's a crappy episode he's responsible for.
He always goes into a sort of don't hit me stance, I think, and
goes in and says it's terrible before anyone else gets the chance
to.
This is sort of his longer statement, though.
The final episode of Enterprise was an idiotic move on my part.
I thought it would be cool to do a Valentine to all of Star Trek.
I just don't see that at all.
To me, there was something really post-modern about the idea of
saying it was an episode of Next Generation that you've never seen
where they go on the holiday with their heroes aboard the
Enterprise.
It sounded good in my head.
What ended up airing was really bad and not successful
completely.
It should have been enterprises finale.
It was a misstep and the actors, they hated it.
It was the only time, the only time Scott Bacula got pissed off at
me.
So apparently... grit his teeth throughout this...
He does that.
Yeah, that's right.
To give us all on the level performance that he does, it's pretty
good if he's gritting his teeth the whole time.
Oh my god.
He was much worse in Strange New World.
I don't know why he wasn't crossing him then.
Brakes is quite kind.
He says, uh, the reality was it was a bit of a stretch to have us
shut down enterprise.
I do think it was a bit of a disservice to them.
So, mixed, but it's not exactly positive, is it?
But I have to say that I think the idea that it's a disservice to
enterprise is a stretch.
And I think perhaps people need to get a grip because it was the
show that failed and the entire episode.
It could really appetize it as such, though, could they?
I suppose, oh, by doing it.
Well, but the whole time you've got Riker and Troy there saying
how much they admire these people, how fun it is to wander around
this ship and see them.
You've got Riker chatting to them and drawing out what they feel
about Tripp and about other things.
Like, everything that they do is centred on the story that's being
told in Enterprise, and they're surprisingly little about the
Pegasus. actually there.
There's one scene.
I think that's devoted entirely to the decision that Riker has to
make.
And the rest of the time they're just observing what's happening
on the enterprise.
I think people overreact and overestimate how much next gen there
is in this episode.
Before we go in, I hope it's worth pondering the question, what
could they have done?
That would have made people happy because looking at the other
like turnabout intruder was, you know, that's not...
It was just a show ending, wasn't it?
They didn't have a finale, really.
That was Star Trek 6 that everybody loves because it was one last
hurrah and final adventures for that crude.
And it was probably good.
People liked all good things a lot.
I think that's still very popular despite what we might have said
about it because it was all the crew together solving a space
problem and that was that show.
And again, like a 3rd of that is set in a future that probably
won't happen, but no one's saying we wasted all that time looking
at a thing that isn't real and that never happened.
Do you know what I mean?
Because the fun there was putting those characters into sort of
different situations and getting them to meet up with one another
and seeing how time had passed and it was a possible plausible
future, some of which has gone on to be canonised in Picard.
So all of that, I think, works really well.
It had Mrs. Carmichael back in it from Times Arrow.
So an instant win.
DS9 ended the way only DS9 could, which was over 10 episodes and
11 hours to wrap everything up, but also to tell a big, exciting
political story with tons of character stuff.
You and I have been there quite a bit recently and there's loads
of character stuff going on on payoffs and things like that.
So that worked really well.
Voyager went out with sort of a lot of bangs and whistles, didn't
it?
Which is basically what Voyager did.
Well, you know, like, I'm not convinced that this is that much
worse than Endgame, and I was sort of fairly pro-end game, but
Endgame is another one where we kind of left with what can we
possibly do to end this given that no one's undergone any sort of
interesting character development in the last 7 years.
What do we do?
And it turns out we just relitigate the decision that led us
here.
And we have a space anomaly that gives us a spare Janeway so that
we can sacrifice ourselves and still arrive.
Double the hate bulger.
I mean, what more do you need in your finale, you know?
But, I mean, that's not great, but I mean, it's it's hampered by
the fact that the show isn't great.
Depending on all sorts of ways.
Whereas I think the thing of it what made me happy with Enterprise
would have been just to end on a really great story.
Just a really good, interesting, exciting story with some
genuinely good character beats that made me feel something.
I didn't get any of that here.
I'm honest.
But I think that I think that the show then doesn't end up being
about anything, and this is a last stitch attempt, to make this
show, you know, the reason for all of the other shows, to make
this show, the thing that leads to the foundation of the
Federation.
I don't know if it does that entirely successfully.
I think... far more of that for me.
They look back so affectionately on this that we feel the impact
of enterprise because of them telling us how amazing it was rather
than it actually being amazing itself.
That's fair.
Well, I think we should definitely go in on that note.
The only thing that, you know, I was watching this. you know, bored
stiff and I kept thinking to myself, oh, thank God, I get to watch
this with Nathan talking all over it later.
The only way to make this tolerable.
Oh, maybe.
Let's see how I go.
Well, you're at least bit witty, you know?
Yeah we'll do our best. 42 minutes and 49 seconds.
I think we can just about manage it.
I'm going to count us in.
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.
That was a long preamble there, wasn't it?
It really was.
So here we get these 2 characters speaking for the 1st time in
ages.
Hoshi said some character development.
She has thrown her hair.
Yeah, that's right, because we've passed a few years, so she's
grown her hair.
Well, again, you know, what part of the thing, because there's a
slight artifice to this end that we're watching a TV show about
these people.
It actually, we don't end up raising the question, like, why the
hell are they all still here 10 years later?
And it's always a slightly dumb thing about Star Trek, isn't it
that they all stay in the same job for 7 years and never leave
it.
Here, they're here for 10 years.
Which is quite nice at the end of DS9, isn't it?
They're all going off to do jobs elsewhere. walks off to Kronos.
O'Brien's off to earth.
That happens here too.
We do get them going off to different places.
A few of them really want to work with Captain Archer again, which
is braver. understand why, if I'm honest.
Oh, look, there's William Riker.
There's William Riker.
Set during the Pegasus, but I think he's eating a few pork pies
since then.
Well, look, it's 11 years and it's a TV show.
Like, like, it's okay, you know, it Marina's hair is really quite
different as well.
They could have said to him, look, you've got 3 months, all
right.
Lay off the pork pie.
Oh, no way.
They're 11 years old.
Come on.
It's an episode of Star Trek.
No one's starving themselves to be on that.
I said I'm being a little bit mean, don't I?
Oh, it's been a long time.
Oh, it's a long time to hear.
Nathan and I decided off mic that this actually was the best theme
tune of the entire 90s trek.
No, I think we, I think we did.
I think we did. let's say the most memorable.
I said something about how fabulously dadcore it was and how I
wanted to sing it every time it came on and stuff.
Dad cool. love that.
My favourite bit is still the bit that goes, I've got, I've got
the...
Do you know what?
It's great for a gag as well.
You know, the amount of times on other podcasts where they've been
going for a while and I just make a guest appearance and go, it's
been a long time.
Bizarrely, everybody knows what I'm talking about.
So it did, it's stuck in the memory, this theme tune.
Do you think, I think, you know, when, like, discovery is
obviously the next show after this, and it has the little kind of
blueprint elements that the, that appear here.
Look at this shot of the enterprise and how beautiful it is.
Very nice.
That shot, if the Enterprise did.
It says completely CG Enterprise there, isn't it?
Yeah, for the 1st time on TV.
And it's the Enterprise D, which was always a model.
And I think it looks beautiful.
And so these sets are recreated, are they?
I know, send forward.
Do you know, somehow, they are a little more visually interesting
than those sort of gun metal gray enterprise sets, aren't they?
Not much, but a little bit more.
Well, there's there's a moment where Deanna tells Raika to watch
his head because all the ceilings are so low.
And look at how giant this...
You love latter-day marina soda is hair.
She sort of lets it all cascade down, doesn't she?
So this is a wig and this is not how her hair looks.
That's not how her hair looks on Pegasus.
And she hates the wig.
But I actually quite like it.
And this is kind of post-first contact, isn't it?
Like, this is post-first contact Marina.
And so she's chilled, she's doing an English accent instead of
whatever the hell her accent was before her sort of Greek accent.
Like, she's...
I haven't got time to hang about on the Enterprise bridge, break
seat.
Reg Barkley coming in in a minute, you know.
She's basically Cockney's hair, isn't it?
little bit.
It's wonderful.
It's just terrific. love it.
Written by Rick Berman and Brannon Braga, Nathan.
We're in for a treat. make good.
Yeah.
So I, there's one moment with Marina and um, and Jonathan that I
just think is absolutely superb that I'll point out later.
Jeffrey Combs.
Yes.
Finally, to add a bit of interest to the episode.
Yes, yeah, yeah.
And he's pretty great and it's his 2nd Star Trek finale, isn't
it?
Yeah, well, of course, he was in, you know, he's gets murdered by
Garak in a wonderful scene at the beginning of the last episode of
DS9.
Yeah.
In fact, do you know, this is directed by Alan Croeca, who also
directed Endgame and what you leave behind?
So there you go.
He's out there. getting worse and worse as they go along.
So my favourite credit, my favourite closing credit is puppeteer
and there are 2 puppeteers credited on this episode, and there's a
puppeteer for each of the Andorians doing their antennas.
I'd be going to conventions, you know, saying, oh, just the one
that did the out in 10 ice.
I want to sign something. antennae.
What a great job.
What do you have to do?
Put a string?
I don't know.
No, I think they're probably computer generated.
I like the move ahead an hour as well.
Like, I kind of like that we would just do this through a cut.
Do you know what I mean?
Or we would go, we would see a model shutter, we would do an ad or
you know, and then we would advance the action, but just having
Riker do it, like having Riker direct the episode is something
that I quite like.
Oh, if only Jonathan Frakes was directing this episode.
Yeah, yeah.
It might be a life to it.
Yeah, oh, no.
All that makeup in HD.
Do you see it all coming off his neck there?
Yeah, yeah.
I actually think that this is the most boring part of the episode
and that it's not really rescued by Jeffrey Coombes.
You seem to be suggesting that there isn't a boring part of this
episode.
No, but I think I mean, I found more interest in the sort of stuff
where people are talking to Riker and stuff like that and just
character stuff about trip and things.
I thought it was kind of fun.
I think this is boring.
I know it seems like I'm just disagreeing with you for now as a
matter of course.
I actually think the piece where we're going to find a little girl
was the one bit where I was just a tiny bit invested.
One because I like Jeffrey Coombes as an actor.
I'm sure because that's something I can buy into.
It's a little girl in trouble.
So, yeah, and maybe they need to do their kind of last thing is
like one of their stupid heists that they do.
I mean, the sort of breaking into a place, is that a particularly
enterprising?
And I could have done without frakes in that...
Well, you're in the 2 parter.
We did before this.
Terra Prime 2 parter.
I know that fabulous base landing on the moon, and they were going
to murder all the aliens on the earth.
And that felt big, you know.
Now we're just going after some little girl.
Yeah, but like part of the problem.
Part of the problem too with that.
And I think I sort of hinted at it before.
Like, it is a pretty good ending, but it the basic ending is a bit
kind of muted that we're kind of too crap.
We're too far away from being capable of, of, um, uh, you know
like of of being part of a federation, because we're all too
races.
You see, I, this scene is worth doing in the final episode.
Don't you think?
Still got a phone with his hands, I wasn't...
Yeah, it's still on mine.
He's talking about how he felt about Vulcans and now he's going
back and he's teaching her about her, you know, racism against
Andorians.
And like that's a scene that's worth doing and it relies on them
having a relationship.
And then the galley thing, like, that's cute.
I think the galley thing is cute.
No, you're not going to like me saying this.
I just see a pale imitation of Cisco and Kira right here.
Oh, yeah, it's just, it's just not as interesting and it's, it's
not as well played.
That's not a problem with this episode.
That's a problem with the show. if I'm thinking about a series
gone by.
That's done this better.
But a series of better cast.
So Porthos is very young and he doesn't seem to have aged in the
last 7 years.
I did notice that, especially just a bit of gray, you know, in
Israel?
around the muzzle.
Mind you, I feel as if they should have done that with some of the
cast as well.
Just make it a bit more obvious.
Yeah, they give, I mean, they give her a different wig.
They give Hoshi more longer hair.
I kind of like this, don't do him any favours at all, do they?
No, but like he's a, you know, he's not hiding the fact that he's
a middle-aged man.
That's fine.
I think that's all right.
Oh, no, look, I wear a wire right now, okay.
You can only see this part of me, but it's on skies down there.
So what I think is really fun here too.
And it's, I think I compared it to you earlier on to the
revelation that the doctors named himself Joe. that's finally what
he's settled on for his name.
I thought that was a good playoff.
What a name.
And so, and so here, we've got this character of the chef who's
been mentioned all the way through the show's run, we've never
seen him, I think, is that right?
I mentioned chef all the time.
Over and over again.
Usually as a way of getting out of scenes, you know, like, oh, I
need to go and tell Chef what's on the menu today and stuff like
this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, and so we never find out who chef is, but we get chef here
and chef is Riker.
And so we get a scene where he pretends that he knows them.
Do you know what I mean?
acting as a character who knows and has a pre-existing
relationship with all of these characters, they open up to him, and
we're talking about Tripp, aren't we?
We're talking about trip here because trip is sort of central to
the question that Riker is here to answer.
But like I just, like I just kind of like this, this is them just
cooking the way that, you know, they do on Strange New Worlds and
talking about people.
And this, this speech where she talks about missing him, you know
that having been in a relationship with him and missing him.
And I kind of like this, it's not what you would do now, it seems
wrong, but it's just like he, he's older, he's a bit older than
her, and he feels a bit sad for her.
You know, like, I think that stuff lands.
I think that lands.
These must be the crew, and this is the crew of the show. is
they're looking at pictures of a crew.
That payoff of the chef thing, and we don't even actually know
that that's true.
I think we both just made up that they mentioned the chef lots of
time, isn't it?
Oh, I know that.
It's a very niche payoff if it is, though. that's what you do in
your last episode, isn't it?
Like, you do have a story in your last episode.
Oh, you do all that stuff as well. one of your jokes.
Of course you do.
That's exactly what you do in a finale.
I don't know.
I don't know, do you know what?
Again, I would listen to what you're saying.
I appreciate what you're saying about, you know, simple character
moments and hanging and cooking and all those lovely things.
I'm still distracted by the fact that Riker's there.
So it just doesn't feel real to me.
But it's not real.
It doesn't feel real to me either, but it's nice.
Like they're nice seeing.
I'm not invested in the moment then.
I'll use a different word I'm not in understand that.
It's like not being invested in the visitor because it didn't
really happen.
Well, that's an alternative universe.
I'm not really invested in that either, but it's so well acted
give it a pass.
Until the dreadful makeup hits.
Oh my god, yeah.
Here we are, lots of Next Generation scenes now in the Enterprise
finale.
Well, but it's a scene where we're all talking about, we're
talking about the NXO1.
And, you know, we're getting all of that stuff about the legacy of
it.
Oh, shit.
She's not giving it reverence.
She goes, I'll get them all mixed up.
I'll compare it.
Which one is the NXO one?
That's down of being Marina for a change.
Look at this.
Yeah, watch yourself.
They talk about where's the where's the fish tank?
How could Archer survive in here without a fish tank?
I love those pictures of them.
Who's doing these cute scenes with Hoshi and the regulars?
I don't understand why we're doing this with these pairs.
Because we're trying to make this show have a legacy that it
didn't get in its run.
We're trying to rescue it.
So is admitting defeat?
Well, I think that's it failed.
This is the last episode of series 4 and it's the end of series
4.
It failed.
I just don't know if this ain't the biggest failure of all, though
this episode.
See, I love all this sort of stuff with them wandering around the
wandering around the ship and commenting on it.
And...
Here we go.
Here's the crew.
There's one black guy.
Oh, there's a woman.
There's a lot of white guys in this scene, though.
Look at that.
You can't understand why they're pissed then, but they're
basically, what you're saying is true, and they're reading this
script, which is giving relevance to this show, that they've
slayed their asses off for 4 years, by handing it to the next
generation, and them, giving it some kind of relevance, you can
understand why they're a bit pissed.
Well, what was all of our hard work for?
Well, but like it didn't erase the previous episodes of the show
they still exist.
But at the 11th hour, it needs a better show to come along and say
well, that was worth doing.
Yes, it does.
And they should, they, they need to be realistic about having been
in a failed show, which was not their fault, and this is what we
do.
We try and give it a generous send off.
I feel like they should go out on a triumphant high and not on a
Well, that didn't work, but...
But it's not saying it didn't work.
They're doing it because it didn't work, but they're saying this
show is the thing without which we don't, we, without it, we don't
get Star Trek the next generation.
And it's clear at the very end, when we go back in time, we go at
the very, very end, we get Captain Picard doing the thing over the
Enterprise, D, we get Kirk doing it over the original Enterprise
and then we get Archer finishing it off at the end.
And it's kind of like bringing it in, saying that this is part of
that history and this is important.
And it was, it, I think that's a generous thing to do. is to lend
the weight of the far more successful show to the finale of this.
Yeah, we really are coming at this from different angles.
I just feel a way of disappointment watching this.
Yeah, yeah, but I'm not...
Yeah.
Oh, look, I think it would have been better to have a big good
ending, but it would have been better if Endgame had been a big
good ending as well.
But the shows just weren't leading up to that.
So what do you do?
It's, it's that scene that I really like where it's a moment where
it's absolutely Jonathan and Marina, where Marina sees Archer and
goes, he's cute and Jonathan laughs and says, don't get any
ideas.
So you're not coming on here to do porn with archer in the
holodeck after I go.
And but it's absolutely Jonathan laughing at Marina there.
You know, I was watching as well.
In a minute, there's a kind of an action sequence on that, uh, when
they save the little girl, and do you remember the action sequence
in Broken Bow, where they, they're in this fabulous location, and
it's all snow everywhere, and they're shooting through the snow
and it's visually very arresting.
Yeah.
I'm not sure how we got from there to here.
So at this point, we know that Tucker's going to die, but we
haven't dwelt on it.
Doesn't Marina say he, you know, or someone says he thinks he's
going to come home.
Why does he need to die?
Well, I think it just gives the show...
Exactly.
That's the best I can do.
It feels unearned.
Yeah, it does feel unearned because he dies for a dumb reason.
Like, it's like the most generic space people come on board and
offer the least interesting threat imaginable, and he has to kill
himself in order to save Archer.
It's a bit it's a bit mundane.
You and I have established doing enterprise episodes in the past
that we really like Connor Trinier.
We really like Tripp when they get him right.
And you absolutely.
He's the one you kind of do feel something for because he's got
this sort of wounded puppy look.
He does, you know.
So I should be all over this shit when he does.
What about this scene?
Like, I think this scene is really nice.
Because they've broken up at some point and she is telling him
after having that chat with Chef, she's telling him that she's
going to miss him.
And she doesn't yet know, we know, but she doesn't yet know how
much she's going to miss him.
And this, you know, like, Like, just the 2 of them, you know, we've
moved beyond the sort of, we're rubbing, uh, gel into each other's
tits stage of the relationship. 2 years we were doing that for.
And now it's kind of something that's a little bit more grown up
and a little bit more kind of a little bit sad and wistful.
I think that's a good scene, you know.
It's a good scene.
I, you know what?
I think another issue.
I'm having with my list of issues is, is the fact that the last
time we saw them, they were in a relationship, you know, they were
having a baby and all of this, and I don't know what's on the best
split up, and that sort of intervening gap, it, it, it just feels
absent, you know?
Yeah, but that's why this feels honour.
Well, what it feels like, when Manikozo says it's a coder rather
than a finale.
It's a little bit like the 1st enterprise film.
Do you know what I mean?
It's like if we were to, if we were to have the film, we would
have jumped ahead 7 years.
We would have seen how everyone had gone.
We would have seen how they changed. how their relationships among
each other changed.
That's how those things were.
You make a you make a good point there.
How things have changed.
TNG straight to a film within, you know, a month.
Now, it's like we can't end this quick enough.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, these villains.
I mean, what do you remember about these villains?
That guy has like the weird ridges that he has on his face, like
it's a track that something's going to run down, like a model
train. train. and this is the other fucking baffling thing.
So we've had heaps of dialogue about how this amethyst that
they've created is undetectable without a neutronic something or
other. completely undetectable.
So we'll swap it for the baby and then we'll the child and then
we'll leave.
But for some reason they decide to make it into a bomb.
Like, I don't know why, like, like, look at this.
It's so dumb.
And it looks like one of those cheap crystals you get when you go
to the Festival Maze place, yeah.
That's very Star Trek.
It starts sort of flashing, yeah.
So it gives them a child to do strobe lighting and stuff like this
and make this really look good and they just flash it like 3 times
and that's it.
But like, why do they even do that?
Why don't they just say, all right, we've got the kid Legger.
You've done something atmospheric with it, you know?
And instead it's just like, oh, well, that's got them away, you
know?
But also, if it's a bomb, why aren't they injured or dead or
anything, like, what the hell was the point of it?
They turned it into a bomb.
It didn't do anything and it still leaves them alive.
It still left them alive to come back on board the ship later and
kill Tripp.
It's ridiculous. is so bad that later on when he comes on the
Enterprise, he literally says, I'm not going to kill him now.
We'll be gone for 10 minutes and if we're not back, then you can
kill him.
Kill him then.
What?
Yeah.
So late. so he's detecting it.
We're up here for some reason.
I'm not quite sure what we're doing.
I do like a bit of scaffolding, Enterprise.
I like sort of high shooting down shots, you know?
Well, they're kind of shooting in a warehouse or something.
Yeah, so it explodes.
Why does it do that?
We don't know.
It's not good, isn't it?
just sort of flashing.
No, it's just flashing what so that they can get away?
As far as I can see, the only thing that it's achieving is it's
lightening up your pretty face even more than it is on the
screen.
But apart from that, no, there's no reason.
Yeah, it is a bit. a bit of largy barge here.
People running about.
There's a macco, Riker gets to be a macco there.
Think about that glorious sequence in where the Warrior, where
they're fighting on the promenade.
I mean, it shits all over this, doesn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But that's always an enterprise problem, isn't it?
No one really cares.
These people are super boring.
This is just eating up running time.
It's just weird how actions got sort of less interesting as time's
gone on in the 90s into the 2000s.
Nothing's at stake.
Why are we even still here?
You know, I would have loved for him to die like this falling off
this paddle.
Yeah.
So, I mean, that, like that's what's happening, isn't it?
Is it supposed to be tense because we think Tripp's going to die?
A truly heroic death in the service of saving Schran's daughter
you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
By falling off a theme.
Instead what happens, what he saves Archer and gets electrocuted
or something.
He saves, yeah, killing those guys. blows them up.
So boring.
What a boring way to go.
Actually, I think it's better than.
At least Jadzia gets fried alive by evil gold to cut as he's taken
the wormhole out.
I know, but it's more exciting than this.
Well, yeah.
But it's very definitely, it's so that the kids at home know that
it's purely contractual, you know, that she's dying in the finale
just because Terry's not banking.
She gets the ultimate soap line, isn't she?
You know, about a baby.
Oh my god.
So bad.
I can't say I felt anything there either.
I laughed a lot, yeah?
Wow, pink skin.
Yeah.
Still doing that.
Yeah, we're still doing that, even though it really only works for
white people.
Oh, well, that's it.
We've done that.
We can end the episode down.
Yeah, yeah. let's just head off.
It's time for him to write his speech.
How did they come up all the enterprise?
I think I've zoned out at that point.
I don't know.
No, they're on a on a shuttle.
Beautiful shot.
I did like these fabulous rocks past the windows in the
Enterprise.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah Does that happen in Pegasus?
I can't remember No, it's the sort of thing they couldn't really
do back in the day, isn't it?
So now they're taking advantage of that.
I like having data for one last little interaction too.
Well, until Picard comes along, of course.
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But like that's a while away now and look, look how much Marina
loves Brand, bless her.
I mean, imagine if this was how we would have seen next generation
off as well. in this dreary episode.
I mean, I'm very pleased.
I know I had a few issues with that Picard Series 3.
But boy, I boy, did they celebrate the next generation in that
season?
Yeah, yeah, it's so great.
Oh, no, or that side shot on his tummy.
I'm sorry.
I know, I know, I know.
Yeah. happens to us all.
I'm just literally 11 years ago.
We saw that sort of lovely swelt William Riker from Skin of Evil
the other day, didn't we?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, you know, that's all right.
Yes.
Marina somehow looks more beautiful though.
Yeah, she's so fabulous.
I mean, I don't know what they would do with her in series one.
They put that bun on her head and that horrible black question.
That's terrible.
She looks gorgeous in a Starfleet uniform.
See, I don't know why we're going through all this.
And I think that this is a complete waste of our time.
Oh, so you mean this scene?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It just goes on for too long and like, we are sort of, like, I
don't think we do a particularly good job of motivating, like, why
is Riker watching this episode?
Um, you know, in particular, and they kind of sort of try and make
it work, but it doesn't quite work.
Oh, she...
I mean, they did this scene in best of both worlds, you know, when
she says to him, you know, you're getting a little seasoned, you
know, in your old age.
It was a lot better then.
Look, here we get, here we get Reed talking about...
There's actually one moment where they nearly out, he was gay, and
then, like, they queer bait, and then, um, and then walk away from
it as a kind of joke, and I'll kind of give them that, I think.
So you've got him talking about Reed, talking about Tripp.
Um, Nothing very much.
Yeah, did you ever find yourself attracted to him, Riker says.
And then we discover that he's talking to Hoshi. 15 seconds.
Yeah, that's all he gets, this, that's all he gets.
No wonder he was pissed.
Well, he's got nothing.
What are we going to talk to read about?
Like, honestly, can we just come to some conclusions about these
characters?
I know they're nothing characters. 15 seconds with Riker in the
holodeck.
I mean.
Oh, here's Anti Montgomery.
Yeah, they get hardly anything.
I would have made him the star of the show.
Look at him. gorgeous.
Yeah, yeah.
He's just young and pretty and like there was going to be
something generational about him.
He was like a young person who'd grown up in space, you know, I
don't know, there's just a missed opportunity.
Oh, he was very humble, actually, when he was talking on that big
group interview and he said, look, I go, I didn't get much to do
but I got to hang out with these fabulous people for years.
So never mind.
It is a great shame.
It would have been great if you got to hang out with them and have
some good things to do as well.
I like this.
This is pretty great.
Here's Dr. Fox and any scene with Dr. Fox is really good.
Literally the best character in Enterprise.
He should have been there.
He should have been.
It should have been his daughter they were going after.
We've established he's got children.
Yeah, so like this, like it's really funny, like he, he orders him
to get 6 hours sleep and Tripp negotiates him down, talks him down
to four. and like, that's actually quite cute, you know, like, and
you've got, you've got flocks doing some cooking and kind of
enjoying it.
Like, there is something nice about all of this, I think.
Like, that's just a little bit of time to celebrate the crew.
We can be done with more.
BC.
These are scenes we get in strange new worlds every week.
Oh yeah, but you don't get them in Enterprise.
We celebrate the end of the show.
We should have had in series one.
But it's too late for that now.
So at least they're here now.
Do you know what I mean?
Like that's it.
Thank you for getting around to showing them cooking.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
I love those things with Captain Pike when he's cooking.
When Cisco's cooking as well.
Yeah, yeah.
When I've done it, I've done it.
And he's got a bit over the top with it.
But here we get mentions Ephraim Cochrane again and the father and
stuff.
And here we get, and it would have been better, I think, to have
had, have made this the through line for the actual enterprise
episode where it's, he hasn't written his speech yet.
And we only get it mentioned here for the 1st time, and we're, what
15 minutes from the end, and that's going to be the thing, and the
episode ends, like Archer Story ends with him striding out towards
the podium, you know.
We get all this false tension before then.
And a pointless death.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What is this?
I know.
How do they get on?
Like they had a warp to ship, you know, like...
There was just a sort of wobble off the camera.
So that was it.
That's them.
There you go, Alan, that's Alan earning his money this week.
We've abandoned all of the sort of ghastly racism we had in series
one that made everyone so unlikeable.
So we have made a few strides.
Yeah, we kind of have, but I mean, still mostly aliens are evil.
And there's one moment that I quite liked where, yeah, so he
punches Archer, he punches Archer and then saves him, like this is
to save his life.
But there's a scene a bit later where they say, you know, Tripp
would have thought it was worthwhile, even though it ended in this
terrible way.
Even though, you know, so many of our encounters with aliens went
bad, it was still worth it.
I felt, as well, in this scene, there was a bit of awkward
blocking and it felt a bit improvised as well with the acting.
It felt like a 1st take version of this scene rather than that.
It's almost like, shit, the terror down the sets, get in that
corridor and shoot that scene now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
There was a bit of that, wasn't there?
They literally said that, yeah, as they were filming, as they were
doing the last shot with each one, they were tearing them down.
Yeah.
But apparently that happened with Voyager and DS9 as well.
Oh, that promenade set being torn down.
What a crime.
They've remade it in Las Vegas nature.
We'll go one day.
Yes, we should do that. drinking corks bar.
So, so, yes.
And like I had never watched this before.
I knew that he was bluffing and that these had nothing to do with
communications and stuff.
But yeah, all of this, like this is such a low rent threat and
where he has to kill himself in order to get out of it.
Mid season jeopardy, isn't it?
It's worse than that, though.
I think it'd be bad.
It's like mid-episode Jeopardy.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, it's not even the final threat.
The client, the final jeopardy of the series.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, this.
There he goes.
They're all dead.
Even that explosion was a bit lame, wouldn't it?
It's just like sort of nothing puff of smoke.
Yeah, so he isn't too blowed up, you know, when he gets to Sick
Bay, I guess.
Ah, so that can all sort of...
Well, because he does a little wink and a thumbs up as he goes
gets pushed into the thing.
They do blow these enterprise steps up quite well, though.
That's a big destruction, very good.
That's really great. torn holes in the wall and exposed wires.
Although, nothing's as good as that one in series 3 when all the
Zindi ships blow the shit out of the enterprise and the singling
falls down.
That's great.
It's so bad we've lost the ceiling.
He's dead.
There's Riken there again to remind us all.
I know. going stop saying it.
Well, that's why he's watching it.
To remind us that it's a TV show.
It really is a TV show.
It's not a TV show.
It is yourself.
It's real life, though.
This is trip apologising.
They should have made it clear that Flux was giving him a lot of
drugs at this point.
Oh, actually.
That's a lot better than Tashios, blah, blah, blah, isn't it?
I saw a few weeks ago.
Although, you know, imagine if we had that...
But that's, I mean, I quite like that interchange as well where
Tripp is absolutely concerned about the mission.
Like, you know, he sacrifices himself to save Archer so that
Archer can give that speech.
And so when Archer says, I'll be able to write my speech, he goes
great news.
And this is the, and this is the thing.
This is the thing.
When we kill him in the final episode, in a sense, it doesn't
matter because we don't miss out on him.
But I think that they make the point really, really well, in a
scene that absolutely surprised and impressed me, that I thought
was a very unusual thing, Star Trek to do.
There is no impression at all.
Scuba diving off Florida.
In fact, which is what annoyed me about this was that they waited
till the last episode where they don't have to deal with this
afterwards.
At least with Terry Farrell.
We had a year afterwards where we dealt with the emotional
consequences.
To be fair, that was, you know, forced on them.
Due to the producers being bricks. not having a conversation with
her about pay.
This, and I love this scene, actually, and it's about, like, it
mentions her mother who we saw die earlier in series 4 in the, you
know, Keshara episode that we watched, where Tapul's mother was
killed, and we were introduced to her as a sort of semi-regular
character for a few episodes, and she talks about how Tripp told
her that the pain would lessen.
She would miss her less as time went on.
And she said, but that's not been my experience.
I miss her more.
And so we'd had them talking about missing one another.
And, like, I just, yeah, this, Tripp told me as the years went by
that I would miss her less.
And like, the dialogue's not that great, but I think it's a nice
moment.
And I think, like, if you're, you have to have something that
they're going to act about, you know, and you have to have
something that's going to motivate them talking about, if we kill
him in this final episode, we never miss him in a way.
Um, and it's kind of sad if you think that this is all real and he
doesn't go on to have a rich and happy life because we were never
going to see that.
We were never going to see him again.
So in a way, it doesn't matter.
Um, So, so I didn't feel that it was as gratuitous and as kind of
mean spirited as I thought it must have been originally, because
it gives the characters the chance to react in this way.
There is something about these whispers of performances that just
don't move me in a way that the best of Voyager, you know, Kate
Mulgrew and Jerry Ryan, and the best of DS9, Nana Visitor, and
when they have dialogue scenes like this, they really move me.
I just got nothing from this.
Well, I just don't think you can blame this episode for that
though.
No, no, I mean, it's a show in general, but they're trying to make
a point here and they're trying to move you and it's not
happening.
See, I like that.
I like, and that look, and his look, like, I was a little bit
worried that he would be too stoic, and this, I think this is
wonderful.
His trip.
He's back because he's not really dead.
He's a character in a TV show and we can see him.
I really do think that we want.
I would like to point us out. only you think this way.
Everybody else is like, okay, he's just died and here he is
again.
Well, because...
The TV show.
And so we get to see him and I think that is so much better.
This is what they tried to do with Tasha.
Do you know what I mean?
It's like, let's have her alive and she's in heaven and she gets a
chance to tell everyone how much she loves.
But this, I love this.
Like, he talks to him.
He knows how this ends for him and then he goes back in time and
gets the chance to talk to him and we get to see how charming and
beautiful he is.
Look at him.
He's just so adorable.
Do you feel like the death of Joyce Summers in Buffy would have
been better at the end of the episode?
We haven't seen where she walked in and talked to Buffy.
I don't want to mind that as a Star Trek.
No, it would have been.
I don't want to say that.
No, but you do get vampires in the final scene of that episode, the
body, just to remind you of what this show is really about and to
say something about death in a very odd way.
But fear.
It's so odd to juxtapose his death scene and then then reacting to
his death.
I think it's terrible.
No, it's awful.
No.
It's a series of bad choices.
This is one of the worst.
No, this is the final say.
Finally, we don't, the last time that we've seen him.
We get to see him smiling and beautiful and we get to remember him
and it's wistful because he does...
Oh, he asks, he asks Chef about the future.
Yeah, I love that.
I just think, you know, he's not real.
He's, you know, the death of the character.
It's a thing and it gets the characters to react, but we get to go
back and we get to see him.
And because we could have done that in a flashback.
I know this.
We could have done that in a flashback, but instead Riker creates
the flashback. does a flashback for us.
That's so...
To me, it just feels like it's just fundamentally misunderstand
how to traumatise something.
No, I think that you're, I think that...
Yeah, I think that you're that person.
It's a TV show and this is a TV drama and it's using the things
that TV drama can do.
But sometimes when I'm watching a TV show, I like to forget it's a
TV show and just enjoy it on its own terms.
I don't need to be reminded every 5 minutes that it's a TV show.
No, but you don't, it shouldn't need to be reminded.
It's clearly a TV show.
Like, that's the thing.
And so watching how stories unfold watching what the writers are
deciding to do, watching what the directors are deciding to do
that's the pleasure.
Like the pleasure is not just, you know, disappearing into a world
where there are these characters.
It's being told a story by skilled people who are making
decisions.
Because I'm not talking a story, not a wife.
That's true.
I like this scene too.
Unfortunately, a series by people that fundamentally dismantled
the franchise and murdered.
And here's a good example of why.
Nah, so, but this, I mean, I kind of like this.
So they were talking about staying with, um, you know, like, uh, I
think Travis and and Malcolm were going to stay with with Archer
or something like that.
Oh, here's Billy for the last...
I like this bit, you got the 2 best characters here, to poll and
flocks.
I'm an acute moment with Archer.
Okay, that's quite nice.
And the smile.
We get the smile.
I just don't think that CGI audience was acceptable even then.
No, but the smile is pretty great.
That smile is good.
And I like this.
I do like that he walks out there and we don't quite see it
happen.
Well, you know that the Federation gets founded because it's been
there all episode.
I thought it was a good summation of the show.
Enterprise ducking the moment.
Oh, no, no, I think that's a deliberate thing that you do.
It's a little bit, the thing that it reminds me of. is the end of
Angel, which ends mid...
They're just about to have a fight.
Are you using this in your defence?
And Wesley's about to die.
And we never find out what happens.
Do you know what I mean?
And like the thing that you get to do in a TV show, which this one
does, and like the others, the others may be, maybe what you leave
behind, but none of them aggressively, as aggressively goes, and
we're done with this story, and it's going to end at this, this
point before something hugely important happens, and you know that
it's going to be important.
I like it.
Marino in the background or that shock.
She's never quite sure what to do until Riker turns up.
So she's just sort of like, oh, what a lovely scene.
Watching telly.
She's watching telly.
That's it.
That, yeah, yeah, here we go.
There you go.
Tell us how important all this was for the last 4 years.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's part of the problem is the show never ended up being
about anything.
Because we're done it, she said. let's go.
This whole from show.
End program.
Turn it off.
Isn't that great?
I love that computer end program.
That's like the end of, what's the, uh, ship in a bottle, the end
of ship in a bottle where they say computer end program.
Was it not real?
None of it.
They just walked out of a fake room.
Well, nothing on Star Trek has been real since shipping a bottle.
It is.
They never left the thing.
Oh, please.
That would be the best West ever.
Picard leaves his jacket in there.
Like he literally comes out with a different jacket.
He's a lovely letter to the franchise.
Kirk, Picard, and Archer.
Archer Yeah.
Or Kate Mulgrew.
No, no, no, but that's not the enterprise, is it?
You know, like, that's it.
It's the end to me.
I love letters to the franchise.
Oh, so the Enterprise.
It's a love letter to Enterprise, the show, I think. pretty
clearly.
It's sort of like a poison pen layer, do you think?
No, no, I think they've, I think they've...
Yeah.
I mean, look, like this is my least favourite Star Trek, I think.
Well, that's the animated series.
Oh, that doesn't even count.
Yeah.
It's like a pamphlet, isn't it?
Yeah, it's my least favourite one that's actually making an
effort.
And I'd never kind of watched it much before.
Untitled Star Trek project came along.
And sometimes I'm furious at it and sometimes, you know, there are
things that it does that I think are really, really misconceived.
And it's clearly being made by people who don't really give a shit
about the politics of Star Trek at all.
And oh, knackered, creatively knackered.
And so, you know, like, I think that they had the right to look
back on something they created.
I think that centring it around trip was a great idea because I
think I think the doctor is like he's a character part, isn't he?
Like he's the character that I enjoy the most, but he's scenery in
a way, I think.
He's not as developed a character as Tripp.
And I think, you know, you've got trip to Poland Archer doing
maybe the best recreation of the original 3 from Star Trek, the
original series.
Ale imitation.
Oh, nowhere near as good, but definitely that's the that's the
best attempt at it.
You know, the...
Now we're exploring TOS, you know, and seeing it.
Vital and alive on the screen.
Yeah, yeah, people whisper it in gray rooms is, yeah, yeah.
But, you know, like Conor Trinier is great.
John Blaylock is great.
You know, Bacula's fine on his day, hampered by a kind of horrible
character.
But like it wasn't all a complete waste of time.
It was still Star Trek, and I liked the fact that even though it
had failed, I think what they're doing here isn't saying we need
to rush Jonathan and Marina over here stat before the patient sort
of haemorrhages to death, I think they bring them back as a way of
paying a tribute to the show and what the show has been.
And to try and make the show something a little bit more momentous
than it actually was.
Okay, like it's a 4 script, being endured by a crew that's just
had enough of this nonsense now, that just acting their way
through it.
I don't think on any level.
I said to you in a message, I don't think it even appears above
average at any point, you know, it would be barely acceptable as
in the midseason episode.
It's not a triumphant way to see out this show.
And I just had no investment in it.
That's my biggest problem.
My biggest into Star Trek, is the characters.
And, you know, even on TNG where they're paper thin.
I can get behind them because the performances are so good and
their chemistry is so great and they still make me feel things
even when the writing isn't there.
I just felt nothing watching this at all.
And I just wanted it to be over with.
And I guess that's a true fitting tribute for me at enterprise
just wanted it to be over with.
Yeah, I know I've been mean.
I know I've been mean, but I've been honest as well, because I
feel like we have to on this thing.
And it's not like, maybe I went into this expecting to not like
it.
I don't think I expected to be as bored as I was.
So for me, the the 2 part finale that precedes this, um, is good
and it deals with some heart to it and it.
It had something to say, I think.
Yeah, it deals with some of the themes that the show sort of is
working towards, even though it's the sort of stuff that is kind
of, you know, well trodden ground in Deep Space 9 by this point.
But it was pretty limited in its ambitions and it was a story
whose resolution was, we're not ready for the Federation yet.
So it ends with a, with a note of failure.
One day we'll be able to do this, but we're not ready for it yet.
And so here, what they do is they go for something more ambitious
and something more important to the history of the franchise, and
they swing and miss, but I think the attempt was worth making.
Alright, it's the end of the episode, and it is time for us to
work out where we are going next.
I chose Enterprise for my sins.
And so now it's your turn.
So, what are we going to be watching?
Your sins are racking up, you know, with these choices?
Well, since, you know, she was a little neglected in the love
lesson to the franchise that we just watched, I would like us to
watch an exciting adventure featuring Captain Catherine Janeway
from Star Trek Voyager.
Okay, excellent.
That sounds like a great choice.
I'm excited by the prospect of that.
Oh, dear.
Straight away. push the button.
That's what we've done, state of flux.
Okay, in mind.
Okay.
That's a good one. yeah.
Okay, scientific method.
Series four, episode seven.
Oh, that's the one where they, they all get covered in spots and
stuff.
It's very boring.
It's like a science versus religion one where Janeway kind of has
to confront something.
Is it alien, like some kind of weird alien thing?
It's so forgettable.
I've completely forgotten, but I just remember Chakotay has spots
in it at one point.
Okay.
Okay, should we go somewhere else?
should do it.
No, let's do something else.
Okay.
Your random Star Trek Voyage episode is season 6 or we do go there
quite a bit.
Episode 18, Ashes to Ashes.
Oh, that's Harry Kim episode.
Oh, we never get to do a Harry King episode.
We ruled one out last time.
No, this is the one.
This is the one. because I know how much you love it.
Oh my god.
Season five, episode 18.
Course oblivion.
Oh, my God.
Wow.
People say, people say that like, there have been votes where that
enterprise episode we watched came last out of the entire
franchise. from angry, angry nerds who weren't even thinking about
Course Oblivion, which is one of the most unpleasant and
ridiculous hours of TV in the shows history.
Weirdly, I have heard because, you know, there was a time when I
saw out reviews.
I have heard reviews in both directions of this episode of some
people saying it's sort of bold, you know, and ambitious, and
other people just saying it's the most dismal television
experience you could possibly have.
So bad.
It's so bad.
Oh, let's do it.
Come on.
It'd be nice, you know.
You started with low expectations going into these are the voyages
and you actually rather enjoyed it.
Yeah.
That's not going to happen this week.
How long has it been since you lost all this?
It has been a long time, but there's something massively
misconceived about the entire thing and just the spectacle of
Janeway looking tragic with like a pound of latex kind of hand.
They also start melting at her face.
It's quicksilver, isn't it?
They're made out of this sort of quicksample.
So they've all got this weird sort of silver paint dripping off
their faces and stuff.
Do you not want to do that then?
Are you not in the mood for course oblivion?
No, no, let's do it.
Let's do it.
I've got to say nice things about a terrible episode.
Now, let me say terrible things about a terrible episode.
Give that a go.
And I, I think when I reviewed this on my website, Doggo reviews, I
did give this one out of 10.
So I'm sort of starting in a low place, but I'm prepared to be
impressed.
I'm pretty sure Jama slams it as well.
So, uh, this might be an agreement.
We can all agree on, yeah.
The stars have aligned and a supernova's hit.
Oh my god.
Course oblivion.
Set course.
For oblivion.
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley, where online at Untitled Star Trek Project
com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social
media accounts.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceron, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 26th of March 2024 and released
on the 12th of April.
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager, course oblivion.
The stars have aligned, and the supernova's hit.
Oh, my God.
Course oblivion.
Set course.
For oblivion.
No, wait.
I'll start that again.
Set course, of course oblivion.
I don't even know if that works.
Does it?
Oh God.
Well, that was...
All of that stays in.
Are you attempting to do it and then fucking it up and then
attempting to do it again?
That's just a podcasting water is all about.
That's kind of funny though.
The funniest thing is the people listen.
That episode, like, fuck.
Like, like, the twist is that it's not the real crew, and then the
real crew fly past at the end.
I don't even want to see what it is.
No, they don't even know what it is.
So it's nothing.
Nothing happens to the crew.
They sacrifice themselves for the other crew or is it just...
No, they just melt and die.
It's like so ridiculous.
And with such a dramatic tile, yeah. should be really exciting.
No, actually it's a pretty great title.
I love a title with a colon in it.
Like a like a assignment earth.
Yeah.
Yeah, of course, Oblivion was a TOS episode.
It would be the best thing ever.
No, it's the worst thing ever.
Yeah, yeah, it would be terrible.
It's just like not even a show.
I just remember it's just so flat.
Like, no, well, not unlike what we just watched.
It's just so like, It's nothing, but it's not even the
characters.
Like, and like, you know, like it's all our actors and stuff, but
no one learns anything, nothing happens.
And then it's demon, isn't it?
Like then there's a seat.
No, demons four.
This is five.
This is the end of five.
Oh, this is the end of the trilogy of terror because you have, um
uh, the fight, and the Harry King won, the disease, and then
course oblivion all back to back.
But then, what's the demon then?
Demas, the 1st one of this.
Oh, wait, course oblivion is a sequel to Demon.
Yeah.
Yeah, there we go.
Yeah.
So that's right.
They allow themselves to be copied at the end of demon.
And the twin says that it's a copy from Demon, which was a pretty
shitty episode you watched last year.
It's such a shame that they do have free on the bounce because in
5 you can and then you get like relativity, which is a really fun
7 time travel episode. 1159, which showed that allows Mulberry to
do different things.
I actually got equinox at the end of the season, which we quite
liked.
Yeah, yeah, so it's a bit of a shame, really, that...
As you head towards the end of the season, they just all start and
it, there's one scene where they're all in the, they're all in the
observation lounge, you know, where they have the meetings.
Yeah, yeah.
And Janeways, like, literally in the sort of last 3rd of the
season's slump.
Mulgrew is, and she's just sort of sitting there covered in still
the paint gang.
Well, we make it out of here, Mr. Chicago.
Overwhelmingly, that was my sense of why the episode was shit.
It was just looking at poor Kate with that fucking makeup on
trying to deliver a line, just me dying of embarrassment on her
bar.
How many seasons of this that we have to go.
That's right.
Fucking hell dreadful.
Oh, but, you know, it would be nice to be truly mean about, because
we're like, we sort of laughed our way through skin of evil.
And you know, you said nice things about today's episode.
So it would be nice to just be truly savage for one week. that's
right.
Unless one of us, you know, has lost any with it.
Seems unlikely.
All right.
Okay.
I'm gonna I'll go.
What do you think?
It was still fun though.
You know, I was horrible, bro, that whole thing.
Yeah, yeah.
But I'm glad that I got to say things because it's just, it just
like...
It's nice to have 2 opinions as well.
I think so too.
But I also think that there's just a fair bit of sort of shitty
entitlement behind some of the backlash.
You know, it's like, this is enterprise and why can't we be, you
know, like, like, and it was just like, no, no, look what you
got.
Like look what they're trying to do for you.
You know, this show failed and we're trying to make it give it a
successful final mission. try to do for you in the last gulp.
Yeah, yeah.
Like we couldn't be doing it all along, Babs, but we didn't, you
know.
Yeah, they were learning lessons.
It's so annoying.
Yeah, no.
They deliberately threw out all the lessons they'd learned because
they thought that was putting people off, you know.
Shame, shame, shame.
Shame.
The potential was there, I think.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes, give it to Manny earlier before they do series 3 and ruin
it.
So when Ira Bear came into DS9, didn't it, you know?
and brought wrong Moore along with him as well.
And he's like, right, come on.
Beef this show up a bit now.
Yeah, yeah, let's have some fun or in Bajor episodes.
Come on, bring in a star, put on some torpedoes.
Let's go.
Awesome.
Okay.
I'm going to go to bed.