WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-06-06 at 21:26:56

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Hi, Joe. Hi.

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So, we finished an entire series of Star Trek, just 2 weeks ago, with the counter clock incident, we said farewell to the animated series, and tonight, we are saying farewell not just to Star Trek Enterprise, but also to 90s trek.

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So this is these are the Voyages, series 4, episode 22, broadcast on the 13th of May 2005, which seems like an impossibly long time ago.

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Have you noticed the pattern as well?

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So we're getting sort of, as we're saying goodbye to all of these shows, an untitled Star Trek project, we are ever doing more popular shows as we go along.

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We started with TNG, which no one likes.

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Then we did Voyager, which some people liked.

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Then we did the animated series, which obviously everybody likes.

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And now we're doing Enterprise, which was the rounding jaw of the franchise.

10
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So I had always been taught to regard this as some kind of war crime.

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This is the worst thing that ever happened. that this was an absolute disaster and an absolute slap in the face to the dozens of loyal enterprise fans that existed at the time.

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You think as many as that, do you?

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A dozen. yeah possibly.

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I actually thought that this was actually quite a nice tribute to enterprise and perhaps more than a series, which was, I think, you know, by any measures kind of a failure.

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It's sort of more than it deserved, like a generous treatment of a show that didn't really, in the end, ever quite work.

16
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It's a series of unfortunate mistakes, isn't it?

17
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It's like 2 course corrections.

18
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And then when they finally make the course correction in the right direction, they get the shop.

19
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Yeah, yeah.

20
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What the hell?

21
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But I just, you know, I think it's fair enough for Paramount to say, well, look, we've given you 4 seasons to get this right.

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You know, like, we're not going to pour any, because it can't be a cheap show to make.

23
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It must have been maybe 3 or 4000000 per episode.

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Maybe.

25
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Yeah, yeah.

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That's not cheap, is it?

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No.

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Yeah.

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I mean, look, like, I read up on what Jamma had to say, and he gives his 2 stars, so he doesn't think...

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He's a little generous on Jamas.

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He doesn't think it's too much worse than Bem.

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Let's just say.

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And he says...

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You're never going to let that go, are you?

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He points out that I think that the news that Marina and Jonathan Frakes were going to be in it had leaked or had been announced or something and everyone was losing their shit and already saying how terrible it was going to be.

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You feel as if the the sort of the news of that meant that no one gave this a chance.

37
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Well, I think people came out determined to dislike it.

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And I have to say, the big criticism is, I think, kind of incomprehensible to me, in that, the idea is that every week we've been tuning in for 45 minutes of real space events from the distant future, but this week...

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So compellingly done.

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I can't tell any difference from reality.

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And this week we're just watching a TV program with William Riker and that's less realistic.

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And and we've addressed this before because I think we talked about the people who think that we're wasting time in batter bing batter bang helping to save the fictional bar of a fictional character when we're on a fictional space station, which is also crude by fictional people.

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So people.

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Yeah, they're fictional.

45
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Or, you know, the people who don't like the visitor because it never really happened.

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And so, like, you're talking about there, you know.

47
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I know.

48
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All of that stuff, I think, is sort of bafflingly weird, because this is an episode of Enterprise, and it's an episode of Enterprise that we couldn't, I think, have got without some kind of narrative Fiji Widginess, because they must have assumed that Enterprise would go for 7 years.

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I don't think they had an end in sight.

50
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It's not like Voyager, where we know that the Andes they come home.

51
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It's not like Deep Space 9 where from about series 4 onwards, we know that it's going to end with the end of the war.

52
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It doesn't have an ending site.

53
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So what do we do at the end of it, right?

54
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And I think that.

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Well, I think that having them found the Federation is a thing.

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Having, you know, this be the story of the ship that went out into space and and forged alliances and met people and stuff and eventually led to the foundation of the Federation.

57
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Now, the show in no way tells that story, you know, like from week to where you can use.

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It stops telling it in the last series.

59
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Yeah, yeah.

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And it probably, and I actually said it would have come to fruition in the fifth.

61
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Yeah, but they don't have the 5th suddenly and they've got the weird situation where...

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They had us one episode left. just do it now Instead of doing this TNG episode.

63
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Oh, in the last scene, they do.

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At the end of the Foundation of the Federation.

65
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The whole thing is about them heading towards this meeting where Archer has to give a speech and it's the foundation of the Federation.

66
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Now, the episode itself is barely about that at all.

67
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But it does end with that.

68
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And like, I don't think we could have done a seven-year jump, you know, like we would never have had a 7 years later suddenly at 7 years later.

69
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That's weird.

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And so they have the framing story in order to motivate that, I think.

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So the previous ending that we had last week in Terra Prime is that it turns out human beings are slightly better than our worst white supremacists, and we'll go back to the drawing board for a bit, but we're heading towards the federation.

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And we do that in a scene that is visually incredibly boring because it is just a crappy hotel conference room that they're using as a location.

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And we have a speech and, you know, that speech is already fine.

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And that kind of ends it.

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But I think that that giving it a kind of attempting to give it a more mythic and more spectacular ending is the right call.

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Now, I think they swing and miss in all sorts of ways, but I don't think that the episodes are mis forgotten.

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I think that this is what they should have tried to do.

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I think that is a heroic reading on this episode, but unfortunately, I was bored stiff watching it to the point where I had to do it in 3 lumps.

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I am that incomprehensible person that you were talking about because I really don't like the framing device to this and I was taken out of the action every time Troy and Riker turned up in the back of scenes.

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I know this is a TV show and I know it isn't real, but it is so distracting to watch these things play out and having Marina Curtis in the background going, What the this?

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It's just baffling.

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I would have done anything to have watched Star Trek with Marina Surtis on the couch next to me commenting on it.

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I can't think of anything better than that.

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It just spells out artifice in every frame.

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And I know it is a real TV show.

86
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Well, it's not for me because it took me out of it and I just didn't care about what was unfolding because I'm like, well, none of this is important.

87
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What's important is the decision he's making on the Pegasus.

88
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I wanted to watch the Pegasus after watching this to say just what I can't even remember what decision he's trying to make.

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Do they make it clear in the episode?

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Yeah, no, they do.

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So he has sworn to Admiral Pressman that he's not going to reveal a secret about the Pegasus being fitted with a cloak, a cloaking device, and he decides to disobey that command.

92
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And he decides to trust Captain Picard.

93
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And I think that that's like, that doesn't really dovetail very well with what's going on in the episode, to be honest.

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Like, I, you know, it's Tripp's decision to punch Archer in the face, which, you know, you would want to do, I would think, uh, in order to sort of save his life and then kill the bad guys.

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And that's what motivates Reich, it's a kind of trust Picard.

96
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And there's more to it than that because he does talk to Tripp about his relationship with Archer in a scene that I think is actually pretty good. far more invested in that that I was in the internet.

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So I get why I don't care about Enterprise and so I'm not angry about this.

98
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I just don't care about this and I think that's even worse.

99
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I have no reaction to it.

100
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Tripp dies at the end of this episode.

101
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I have no emotional reaction to it whatsoever.

102
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I was just like, well, this is just a record of the past.

103
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Never mind.

104
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But it's the same people, shot the same way, doing the same acting.

105
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All of that.

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I don't understand why it makes a difference. the best scenes in Star Trek and none of them would be improved by having somebody else walking around the back of the scene and making it all mythic.

107
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It just I just came out of it completely.

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So there is a disconnect for me throughout the entire episode.

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So do you have sympathy with the people who say, I don't care about Vic Fontaine because he's a fictional character and why are we wasting time on the holiday?

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When you mentioned better being better bang?

111
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Good, good point.

112
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But that's a bit of fluff.

113
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That's a bit of fluff in the middle of the last season just before all the big important real stuff starts happening.

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Whereas this is the series finale.

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This is where we say goodbye to these people.

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I don't think I'm saying goodbye to the Enterprise crew.

117
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I feel as if I'm watching a next generation episode where they're, you know, reading a book about enterprise.

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I think you're given plenty of chance to see the crew for the last time.

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And I think they give the crew the sort of time that they weren't able to give them in the much more action heavy to part of it preceded.

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The right people.

121
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Hoshi gets up 3 lines and so disrupted.

122
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They're over and done with in the 1st scene.

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Right. them done in the finale.

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I mean, you can understand why those actors are pissed.

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That Marina is a Jonathan Frakes are getting a 3rd of this episode and they're in one seat.

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They're not in one scene because they each have the chance to talk to Chef.

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So they do actually get, uh, they do get 2 scenes, but it's probably more amazing. less time.

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Yeah.

129
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Yeah.

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But beyond beyond the framing device.

131
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Yeah?

132
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I found the performance is muted in this.

133
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I said this to you on the chat.

134
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Nobody really particularly seems invested in this group that they've got.

135
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They're competent, but nobody's going above and beyond in this script, acting wise, except possibly Jeffrey Coombs.

136
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I don't think the direction is a cut above either, and whatever you might say about Endgame, the direction of that was quite exciting, and there was action, there was fun things and visually interesting things going on there, and yeah, just a story.

137
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Man, it's so like lustre.

138
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The story is so boring.

139
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Berman and Bragg just can't let go.

140
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They can't give it to Manikoso.

141
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So they come in and they've just got nothing.

142
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The tank is completely empty.

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We're going to do, let's go after Strand's child and then have these green people attack the ship, the end.

144
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That's how we're seeing this show out.

145
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So there's some attempt to tie that back into their 1st mission or something, but it was clearly referencing an episode that I haven't seen.

146
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So they've been to Rygel before on their 1st mission in series one.

147
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So they're trying to sort of top and tail it.

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And the problem is, and we've observed this before, if this show is about founding the Federation, founding the Federation involves lots of people in rooms doing negotiations and writing contracts and doing all sorts of boring stuff that we're not going to see on this.

149
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And so they do something dumb instead.

150
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And I just think that's that, it means that the episode lacks focus, I think.

151
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And they try and focus it around Tripp's death.

152
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And like, I thought, well, they focus it around that for about 10 minutes.

153
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Well, yeah, yeah, but at the climax of the episode, like it's 10 important minutes.

154
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And they foreshadow it beforehand by having Marina mention it and they fake it out early on.

155
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We're supposed to think that bit where that panel falls from underneath him.

156
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Then he's going to die.

157
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That's right.

158
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

159
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Turns out it's even more boring the way you go.

160
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

161
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Then, but, oh, no, no.

162
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I mean, I kind of like the way he goes, but it is like dumb.

163
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You know, like these dumb people come on the sheep and they get then for no reason and suddenly it's such a giant threat that he has to, uh, you know, kill himself, even though we faced much more interesting and deadly threats than these stupid people in their warp 2 ship or whatever.

164
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What I don't understand is why couldn't they have just done the 2 parts of before leading up into this?

165
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The founding of the federation is happening here?

166
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I don't know, there's a big bomb going off.

167
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They've got to stop the conspiracy of those those evil separatists or whatever they were coming in and that's how they end it with them saving the formation of the federation.

168
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Is it because they fixed a day?

169
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So they can't do it now.

170
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I think it is.

171
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Oh, fuck off.

172
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Well, then that's Star Trek fans problem.

173
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Exactly right.

174
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

175
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I don't think so.

176
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They're that invested in what the fans think, that they won't just tell a good story.

177
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They'll skip it forward to the point where they've already said it takes place.

178
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Are we that tied up into this stuff?

179
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Yes, yes.

180
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One of the reasons and I think...

181
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The one that a franchise died.

182
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Well, this is the problem.

183
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This is the absolute problem that the whole franchise has with continuity.

184
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So it's in the teaser of the outcast that Deanna announces that this round is Federation Day.

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Federation was founded in 2161, so 2s, aces, and 6s are wild, and that's when it's established that the Federation's founded in 2161.

186
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And so when they set season one in 2151.

187
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They must have known they were never going to make it to Federation Day.

188
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At some point they're going to have to do a leap.

189
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Or they're going to have to do a leap.

190
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But Star Trek doesn't do that.

191
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And they were never, ever going to do a leap without some kind of framing story.

192
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No, they do it with a framing story.

193
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Like they were never going to just say 7 years later.

194
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That was never going to happen.

195
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And so they do it with a framing story and they do it with a framing story, which is about the legacy of enterprise.

196
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And so we go up to the foundation of the federation, but we don't see it.

197
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Like we have, he walks onto the stage and then it ends, you know, the whole end of the episode is about him writing his speech.

198
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That's the conversation that he has with Tripp as his, as Tripp's dying.

199
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And he goes out onto the stage.

200
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He's about to make the speech and it ends, but what we do see is the legacy that the show has.

201
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And I think the legacy of Enterprise actually is far, far better dealt with in those old scientists in strange new worlds because you've had Boimler and Mariner geeking out over the crew of the Enterprise.

202
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And then you have the Enterprise crew geeking out about the crew of the NXO one.

203
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And when they mention the characters by name, the 2 characters they mentioned by name are Travis and Hoshi, the 2 people of colour and the 2 most neglected characters in the entire history of the show.

204
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They need the exposure in other shows that they didn't get here.

205
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I absolutely think that they're addressing that and that's a deliberate choice in Strange New Worlds.

206
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But this is sort of trying to do that as well.

207
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And I think for a show that failed, that everyone kind of tried at, that is sad.

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00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:23.940
Like it is a sad kind of failure.

209
00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:27.720
The only show in the 90s not to make it to its 5th season.

210
00:16:27.779 --> 00:16:29.519
I think...

211
00:16:29.580 --> 00:16:33.419
Is that podcast that Triner and Montgomery do?

212
00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:36.720
We're trying to give this show some sense of relevance, you know?

213
00:16:36.779 --> 00:16:43.320
And now, now, no, this is Delta Flyers that are doing DS9 now. moving on to shows that are sort of a bit better.

214
00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:45.299
I can actually say nice things about.

215
00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:55.379
But, yeah, it is sad because I feel like this is a group of actors that really wanted to make their mark in this franchise and spectacularly fail to do that.

216
00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:58.259
Yeah, and I don't think it was their fault.

217
00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:03.659
No, it was, it was, unfortunately, that created exhaustion of the people in charge.

218
00:17:03.659 --> 00:17:08.460
And I do think there is some studio interference as well.

219
00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:09.900
Bourman always says that.

220
00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:11.880
Well, actually, talking of bourbon.

221
00:17:11.940 --> 00:17:14.160
Shall I give you some quotes before we go in?

222
00:17:14.220 --> 00:17:16.440
Because everyone's got somewhere to say about this?

223
00:17:16.500 --> 00:17:17.400
Not just you and me.

224
00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:33.900
According to Rick Burman, this episode would have been the 4th season finale, even if it had been picked up for a 5th season, he did state, however, that if the series had been renewed, Tucker would still have been killed off, because the episode flash forward in time.

225
00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:38.160
So when the show came back for a new season, Tucker would still have been alive.

226
00:17:38.220 --> 00:17:39.420
God.

227
00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:41.640
I mean, isn't that terrible choice?

228
00:17:41.700 --> 00:17:43.259
How does how does it work?

229
00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:45.119
Is it anything other than the end of first?

230
00:17:45.299 --> 00:17:46.200
He die at some point.

231
00:17:46.259 --> 00:17:47.160
Never mind, you know.

232
00:17:47.220 --> 00:17:49.200
Yeah, but how does it ever work?

233
00:17:49.259 --> 00:17:51.000
You know, we've seen the foundation of the Federation.

234
00:17:51.059 --> 00:17:51.660
What the point now?

235
00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:52.859
you know that's ridiculous.

236
00:17:52.920 --> 00:18:05.339
So Berman later said at a Star Trek convention in Las Vegas, this was a valentine to all the Star Trek shows, bizarre that Voyager and DS9 don't get mentioned then. don't think it was.

237
00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:06.119
Was it?

238
00:18:06.180 --> 00:18:08.460
I think it's a Valentine to Enterprise.

239
00:18:08.579 --> 00:18:12.119
Well, he says that and then Enterprise just happened to be the show on at the time.

240
00:18:12.180 --> 00:18:14.460
So he's not agreeing with you there, I'm afraid.

241
00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:18.599
But he also said that it had a cool concept and some great stuff in it.

242
00:18:18.660 --> 00:18:21.900
However, he found the episode to be languid, I agree.

243
00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:23.759
And not a complete success.

244
00:18:23.819 --> 00:18:24.960
No shit.

245
00:18:25.019 --> 00:18:26.400
Yeah that's probably fair.

246
00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:38.160
Manikoto says that he considered this to be a coder rather than a true finale of the series. fellow series producer Mike Sussman considered a two-part story.

247
00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:43.500
Demons and Terra Prime that precede this instalment to be the actual finale of the Enterprise storyline.

248
00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:44.460
Yeah.

249
00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:46.680
Yeah, I think that's fair.

250
00:18:46.740 --> 00:18:52.559
I think it's a bit of a limp finale, but I do think it does work as a finale, and this is something different.

251
00:18:52.619 --> 00:18:58.440
And it's different from any of the other finales we've had, which I think is part of the problem that people have with it as well.

252
00:18:58.500 --> 00:19:00.480
John Billingsley.

253
00:19:00.539 --> 00:19:01.980
John Billingsley.

254
00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:03.960
I think he gets 2 scenes in this, doesn't he?

255
00:19:04.619 --> 00:19:06.599
The best thing about the show.

256
00:19:06.660 --> 00:19:10.079
I wasn't wild about the last episode as it is often the case.

257
00:19:10.140 --> 00:19:12.660
I think probably more as made of these things than they should be.

258
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:15.420
See, he's always sort of very measured, isn't he?

259
00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:23.700
It arguably should have been more about our stories on the next generation's cast, and I think the people who were a little put out perhaps had a point.

260
00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:28.799
It seemed to me from things that I've read or heard that people's reactions were a little over the top.

261
00:19:28.859 --> 00:19:36.960
I also think they were on some level trying to find a way to say goodbye or at least goodbye to now for the entire franchise.

262
00:19:37.019 --> 00:19:43.319
And to that extent, I would understand what the thought process was in wanting to bring in some of the next generation characters.

263
00:19:43.380 --> 00:19:45.599
So it's sort of batting for both teams there.

264
00:19:45.660 --> 00:19:46.799
Yeah, yeah.

265
00:19:46.859 --> 00:19:49.440
I think that's a reasonably measured view know viewpoint.

266
00:19:49.500 --> 00:19:52.980
Jolene Blaylock, who's...

267
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:55.740
She doesn't, yeah, she literally says it's appalling.

268
00:19:55.799 --> 00:19:58.079
She goes, I don't know where to start with that one.

269
00:19:58.200 --> 00:19:58.680
Appalling.

270
00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:00.059
She gets some good scenes in it.

271
00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.240
Marina Syrtis, personally, I thought this was a good episode.

272
00:20:03.299 --> 00:20:05.640
I just don't think it was a good last episode.

273
00:20:05.700 --> 00:20:13.980
I don't think that's unfair because I think if this had been mid-season, you know, something this lacklaster had been mid-season, I'd have been, well, that was all right. fair enough.

274
00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:17.579
There are plenty of Lack Leicester episodes in mid-T. But not in series 4 though.

275
00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:22.200
I think the basketball racing series 4 and this is way down there in terms of this season.

276
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:34.380
Brandon Bracker apologised to the entire cast of Enterprise for it and said that he thought he'd made a narcissistic move in trying to make the episode a Valentine to Star Trek and called it frappy.

277
00:20:34.500 --> 00:20:38.279
I think that's him dialling it back, isn't it, after the reaction?

278
00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:40.799
He always does that though.

279
00:20:40.859 --> 00:20:43.259
Like when there's a crappy episode he's responsible for.

280
00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:49.799
He always goes into a sort of don't hit me stance, I think, and goes in and says it's terrible before anyone else gets the chance to.

281
00:20:49.859 --> 00:20:52.680
This is sort of his longer statement, though.

282
00:20:52.740 --> 00:20:55.799
The final episode of Enterprise was an idiotic move on my part.

283
00:20:55.859 --> 00:20:58.740
I thought it would be cool to do a Valentine to all of Star Trek.

284
00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:00.119
I just don't see that at all.

285
00:21:00.299 --> 00:21:09.900
To me, there was something really post-modern about the idea of saying it was an episode of Next Generation that you've never seen where they go on the holiday with their heroes aboard the Enterprise.

286
00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:11.339
It sounded good in my head.

287
00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:15.240
What ended up airing was really bad and not successful completely.

288
00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:18.720
It should have been enterprises finale.

289
00:21:18.779 --> 00:21:21.960
It was a misstep and the actors, they hated it.

290
00:21:22.019 --> 00:21:27.059
It was the only time, the only time Scott Bacula got pissed off at me.

291
00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:31.440
So apparently... grit his teeth throughout this...

292
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:32.039
He does that.

293
00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:32.640
Yeah, that's right.

294
00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:37.740
To give us all on the level performance that he does, it's pretty good if he's gritting his teeth the whole time.

295
00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:39.000
Oh my god.

296
00:21:39.059 --> 00:21:41.039
He was much worse in Strange New World.

297
00:21:41.099 --> 00:21:43.019
I don't know why he wasn't crossing him then.

298
00:21:43.140 --> 00:21:44.759
Brakes is quite kind.

299
00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:49.140
He says, uh, the reality was it was a bit of a stretch to have us shut down enterprise.

300
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:51.599
I do think it was a bit of a disservice to them.

301
00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:57.960
So, mixed, but it's not exactly positive, is it?

302
00:21:58.019 --> 00:22:04.680
But I have to say that I think the idea that it's a disservice to enterprise is a stretch.

303
00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:12.000
And I think perhaps people need to get a grip because it was the show that failed and the entire episode.

304
00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:14.160
It could really appetize it as such, though, could they?

305
00:22:14.220 --> 00:22:16.200
I suppose, oh, by doing it.

306
00:22:16.259 --> 00:22:28.259
Well, but the whole time you've got Riker and Troy there saying how much they admire these people, how fun it is to wander around this ship and see them.

307
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:33.720
You've got Riker chatting to them and drawing out what they feel about Tripp and about other things.

308
00:22:33.779 --> 00:22:44.279
Like, everything that they do is centred on the story that's being told in Enterprise, and they're surprisingly little about the Pegasus. actually there.

309
00:22:44.339 --> 00:22:45.599
There's one scene.

310
00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:49.980
I think that's devoted entirely to the decision that Riker has to make.

311
00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:53.579
And the rest of the time they're just observing what's happening on the enterprise.

312
00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:58.859
I think people overreact and overestimate how much next gen there is in this episode.

313
00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:04.140
Before we go in, I hope it's worth pondering the question, what could they have done?

314
00:23:04.140 --> 00:23:11.579
That would have made people happy because looking at the other, like turnabout intruder was, you know, that's not...

315
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:12.960
It was just a show ending, wasn't it?

316
00:23:13.019 --> 00:23:14.279
They didn't have a finale, really.

317
00:23:14.339 --> 00:23:19.859
That was Star Trek 6 that everybody loves because it was one last hurrah and final adventures for that crude.

318
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:20.880
And it was probably good.

319
00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:22.980
People liked all good things a lot.

320
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:29.940
I think that's still very popular despite what we might have said about it because it was all the crew together solving a space problem and that was that show.

321
00:23:30.059 --> 00:23:43.259
And again, like a 3rd of that is set in a future that probably won't happen, but no one's saying we wasted all that time looking at a thing that isn't real and that never happened.

322
00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:44.279
Do you know what I mean?

323
00:23:44.339 --> 00:23:59.220
Because the fun there was putting those characters into sort of different situations and getting them to meet up with one another and seeing how time had passed and it was a possible plausible future, some of which has gone on to be canonised in Picard.

324
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:01.440
So all of that, I think, works really well.

325
00:24:01.500 --> 00:24:04.440
It had Mrs. Carmichael back in it from Times Arrow.

326
00:24:04.500 --> 00:24:05.759
So an instant win.

327
00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:20.160
DS9 ended the way only DS9 could, which was over 10 episodes and 11 hours to wrap everything up, but also to tell a big, exciting political story with tons of character stuff.

328
00:24:20.220 --> 00:24:25.140
You and I have been there quite a bit recently and there's loads of character stuff going on on payoffs and things like that.

329
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:27.119
So that worked really well.

330
00:24:27.180 --> 00:24:31.200
Voyager went out with sort of a lot of bangs and whistles, didn't it?

331
00:24:31.259 --> 00:24:32.880
Which is basically what Voyager did.

332
00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:51.240
Well, you know, like, I'm not convinced that this is that much worse than Endgame, and I was sort of fairly pro-end game, but Endgame is another one where we kind of left with what can we possibly do to end this given that no one's undergone any sort of interesting character development in the last 7 years.

333
00:24:51.299 --> 00:24:51.900
What do we do?

334
00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:55.920
And it turns out we just relitigate the decision that led us here.

335
00:24:55.920 --> 00:25:03.299
And we have a space anomaly that gives us a spare Janeway so that we can sacrifice ourselves and still arrive.

336
00:25:03.660 --> 00:25:04.680
Double the hate bulger.

337
00:25:04.740 --> 00:25:07.859
I mean, what more do you need in your finale, you know?

338
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:12.779
But, I mean, that's not great, but I mean, it's it's hampered by the fact that the show isn't great.

339
00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:14.940
Depending on all sorts of ways.

340
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:20.160
Whereas I think the thing of it what made me happy with Enterprise would have been just to end on a really great story.

341
00:25:20.220 --> 00:25:29.039
Just a really good, interesting, exciting story with some genuinely good character beats that made me feel something.

342
00:25:29.099 --> 00:25:31.140
I didn't get any of that here.

343
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:32.460
I'm honest.

344
00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:49.440
But I think that I think that the show then doesn't end up being about anything, and this is a last stitch attempt, to make this show, you know, the reason for all of the other shows, to make this show, the thing that leads to the foundation of the Federation.

345
00:25:49.859 --> 00:25:53.519
I don't know if it does that entirely successfully.

346
00:25:53.579 --> 00:25:57.180
I think... far more of that for me.

347
00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:08.339
They look back so affectionately on this that we feel the impact of enterprise because of them telling us how amazing it was rather than it actually being amazing itself.

348
00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:09.660
That's fair.

349
00:26:09.779 --> 00:26:12.900
Well, I think we should definitely go in on that note.

350
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:23.880
The only thing that, you know, I was watching this. you know, bored, stiff and I kept thinking to myself, oh, thank God, I get to watch this with Nathan talking all over it later.

351
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:27.000
The only way to make this tolerable.

352
00:26:27.059 --> 00:26:28.500
Oh, maybe.

353
00:26:28.619 --> 00:26:29.940
Let's see how I go.

354
00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:33.359
Well, you're at least bit witty, you know?

355
00:26:33.420 --> 00:26:36.720
Yeah we'll do our best. 42 minutes and 49 seconds.

356
00:26:36.779 --> 00:26:38.460
I think we can just about manage it.

357
00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:39.779
I'm going to count us in.

358
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:45.720
Five, four, three, two, one, and we're off.

359
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:48.779
That was a long preamble there, wasn't it?

360
00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:49.859
It really was.

361
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:50.940
It really was.

362
00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:55.200
So here we get these 2 characters speaking for the 1st time in ages.

363
00:26:55.259 --> 00:26:57.359
Hoshi said some character development.

364
00:26:57.420 --> 00:27:00.240
She has thrown her hair.

365
00:27:00.299 --> 00:27:04.799
Yeah, that's right, because we've passed a few years, so she's grown her hair.

366
00:27:04.859 --> 00:27:14.220
Well, again, you know, what part of the thing, because there's a slight artifice to this end that we're watching a TV show about these people.

367
00:27:15.180 --> 00:27:21.839
It actually, we don't end up raising the question, like, why the hell are they all still here 10 years later?

368
00:27:21.900 --> 00:27:28.680
And it's always a slightly dumb thing about Star Trek, isn't it, that they all stay in the same job for 7 years and never leave it.

369
00:27:28.740 --> 00:27:30.299
Here, they're here for 10 years.

370
00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:33.000
Which is quite nice at the end of DS9, isn't it?

371
00:27:33.059 --> 00:27:35.819
They're all going off to do jobs elsewhere. walks off to Kronos.

372
00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:36.900
O'Brien's off to earth.

373
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:38.220
That happens here too.

374
00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:41.579
We do get them going off to different places.

375
00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:47.460
A few of them really want to work with Captain Archer again, which is braver. understand why, if I'm honest.

376
00:27:47.579 --> 00:27:50.640
Oh, look, there's William Riker.

377
00:27:50.759 --> 00:27:51.960
There's William Riker.

378
00:27:52.019 --> 00:27:55.740
Set during the Pegasus, but I think he's eating a few pork pies since then.

379
00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:58.799
Well, look, it's 11 years and it's a TV show.

380
00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:05.339
Like, like, it's okay, you know, it Marina's hair is really quite different as well.

381
00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:08.579
They could have said to him, look, you've got 3 months, all right.

382
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:10.019
Lay off the pork pie.

383
00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:10.799
Oh, no way.

384
00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:13.079
They're 11 years old.

385
00:28:13.140 --> 00:28:13.920
Come on.

386
00:28:13.980 --> 00:28:15.660
It's an episode of Star Trek.

387
00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:17.400
No one's starving themselves to be on that.

388
00:28:17.460 --> 00:28:19.200
I said I'm being a little bit mean, don't I?

389
00:28:19.259 --> 00:28:21.720
Oh, it's been a long time.

390
00:28:21.779 --> 00:28:25.140
Oh, it's a long time to hear.

391
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:30.900
Nathan and I decided off mic that this actually was the best theme tune of the entire 90s trek.

392
00:28:31.019 --> 00:28:33.660
No, I think we, I think we did.

393
00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:35.940
I think we did. let's say the most memorable.

394
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:42.720
I said something about how fabulously dadcore it was and how I wanted to sing it every time it came on and stuff.

395
00:28:43.019 --> 00:28:45.059
Dad cool. love that.

396
00:28:46.440 --> 00:28:53.579
My favourite bit is still the bit that goes, I've got, I've got the...

397
00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:55.259
Do you know what?

398
00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:56.519
It's great for a gag as well.

399
00:28:56.579 --> 00:29:03.839
You know, the amount of times on other podcasts where they've been going for a while and I just make a guest appearance and go, it's been a long time.

400
00:29:06.180 --> 00:29:09.359
Bizarrely, everybody knows what I'm talking about.

401
00:29:09.420 --> 00:29:12.000
So it did, it's stuck in the memory, this theme tune.

402
00:29:12.059 --> 00:29:24.359
Do you think, I think, you know, when, like, discovery is obviously the next show after this, and it has the little kind of blueprint elements that the, that appear here.

403
00:29:24.420 --> 00:29:26.940
Look at this shot of the enterprise and how beautiful it is.

404
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:28.319
Very nice.

405
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:30.180
That shot, if the Enterprise did.

406
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:32.460
It says completely CG Enterprise there, isn't it?

407
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:34.500
Yeah, for the 1st time on TV.

408
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:37.319
And it's the Enterprise D, which was always a model.

409
00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:38.579
And I think it looks beautiful.

410
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:41.400
And so these sets are recreated, are they?

411
00:29:41.579 --> 00:29:43.859
I know, send forward.

412
00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:51.359
Do you know, somehow, they are a little more visually interesting than those sort of gun metal gray enterprise sets, aren't they?

413
00:29:51.420 --> 00:29:53.460
Not much, but a little bit more.

414
00:29:53.519 --> 00:30:01.559
Well, there's there's a moment where Deanna tells Raika to watch his head because all the ceilings are so low.

415
00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:05.400
And look at how giant this...

416
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:07.980
You love latter-day marina soda is hair.

417
00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:10.559
She sort of lets it all cascade down, doesn't she?

418
00:30:10.619 --> 00:30:13.980
So this is a wig and this is not how her hair looks.

419
00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:17.099
That's not how her hair looks on Pegasus.

420
00:30:17.160 --> 00:30:20.460
And she hates the wig.

421
00:30:20.519 --> 00:30:22.440
But I actually quite like it.

422
00:30:22.980 --> 00:30:27.960
And this is kind of post-first contact, isn't it?

423
00:30:28.019 --> 00:30:30.660
Like, this is post-first contact Marina.

424
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:37.079
And so she's chilled, she's doing an English accent instead of whatever the hell her accent was before her sort of Greek accent.

425
00:30:37.140 --> 00:30:38.400
Like, she's...

426
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:42.240
I haven't got time to hang about on the Enterprise bridge, break seat.

427
00:30:42.299 --> 00:30:44.640
Reg Barkley coming in in a minute, you know.

428
00:30:44.700 --> 00:30:47.519
She's basically Cockney's hair, isn't it?

429
00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:47.880
little bit.

430
00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:48.599
It's wonderful.

431
00:30:48.660 --> 00:30:49.980
It's just terrific. love it.

432
00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:53.940
Written by Rick Berman and Brannon Braga, Nathan.

433
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:56.220
We're in for a treat. make good.

434
00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:56.519
Yeah.

435
00:30:56.579 --> 00:31:04.559
So I, there's one moment with Marina and um, and Jonathan that I just think is absolutely superb that I'll point out later.

436
00:31:04.619 --> 00:31:06.660
Jeffrey Combs.

437
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:07.500
Yes.

438
00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:10.380
Finally, to add a bit of interest to the episode.

439
00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:12.480
Yes, yeah, yeah.

440
00:31:12.539 --> 00:31:16.799
And he's pretty great and it's his 2nd Star Trek finale, isn't it?

441
00:31:16.859 --> 00:31:26.160
Yeah, well, of course, he was in, you know, he's gets murdered by Garak in a wonderful scene at the beginning of the last episode of DS9.

442
00:31:26.339 --> 00:31:27.720
Yeah.

443
00:31:27.779 --> 00:31:36.480
In fact, do you know, this is directed by Alan Croeca, who also directed Endgame and what you leave behind?

444
00:31:36.539 --> 00:31:38.099
So there you go.

445
00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:41.880
He's out there. getting worse and worse as they go along.

446
00:31:41.940 --> 00:31:58.980
So my favourite credit, my favourite closing credit is puppeteer, and there are 2 puppeteers credited on this episode, and there's a puppeteer for each of the Andorians doing their antennas.

447
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:03.059
I'd be going to conventions, you know, saying, oh, just the one that did the out in 10 ice.

448
00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:05.519
I want to sign something. antennae.

449
00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:08.880
What a great job.

450
00:32:08.940 --> 00:32:09.900
What do you have to do?

451
00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:10.680
Put a string?

452
00:32:10.740 --> 00:32:12.299
I don't know.

453
00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:14.099
No, I think they're probably computer generated.

454
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:16.619
I like the move ahead an hour as well.

455
00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:20.099
Like, I kind of like that we would just do this through a cut.

456
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:20.940
Do you know what I mean?

457
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:32.759
Or we would go, we would see a model shutter, we would do an ad or, you know, and then we would advance the action, but just having Riker do it, like having Riker direct the episode is something that I quite like.

458
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:36.839
Oh, if only Jonathan Frakes was directing this episode.

459
00:32:36.900 --> 00:32:37.859
Yeah, yeah.

460
00:32:37.859 --> 00:32:39.359
It might be a life to it.

461
00:32:40.259 --> 00:32:42.420
Yeah, oh, no.

462
00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:44.099
All that makeup in HD.

463
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:46.380
Do you see it all coming off his neck there?

464
00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:47.400
Yeah, yeah.

465
00:32:47.460 --> 00:32:54.720
I actually think that this is the most boring part of the episode and that it's not really rescued by Jeffrey Coombes.

466
00:32:54.779 --> 00:32:58.440
You seem to be suggesting that there isn't a boring part of this episode.

467
00:32:58.500 --> 00:33:09.420
No, but I think I mean, I found more interest in the sort of stuff where people are talking to Riker and stuff like that and just character stuff about trip and things.

468
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:10.259
I thought it was kind of fun.

469
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:12.059
I think this is boring.

470
00:33:12.180 --> 00:33:16.859
I know it seems like I'm just disagreeing with you for now as a matter of course.

471
00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:23.279
I actually think the piece where we're going to find a little girl was the one bit where I was just a tiny bit invested.

472
00:33:23.339 --> 00:33:25.680
One because I like Jeffrey Coombes as an actor.

473
00:33:25.740 --> 00:33:27.660
I'm sure because that's something I can buy into.

474
00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:29.039
It's a little girl in trouble.

475
00:33:29.099 --> 00:33:35.220
So, yeah, and maybe they need to do their kind of last thing is like one of their stupid heists that they do.

476
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:41.039
I mean, the sort of breaking into a place, is that a particularly enterprising?

477
00:33:41.099 --> 00:33:43.319
And I could have done without frakes in that...

478
00:33:43.380 --> 00:33:44.700
Well, you're in the 2 parter.

479
00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:45.480
We did before this.

480
00:33:45.539 --> 00:33:47.099
Terra Prime 2 parter.

481
00:33:47.099 --> 00:33:52.319
I know that fabulous base landing on the moon, and they were going to murder all the aliens on the earth.

482
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:54.240
And that felt big, you know.

483
00:33:54.299 --> 00:33:56.039
Now we're just going after some little girl.

484
00:33:56.099 --> 00:33:58.740
Yeah, but like part of the problem.

485
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:00.180
Part of the problem too with that.

486
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:02.940
And I think I sort of hinted at it before.

487
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:08.880
Like, it is a pretty good ending, but it the basic ending is a bit kind of muted that we're kind of too crap.

488
00:34:08.940 --> 00:34:22.079
We're too far away from being capable of, of, um, uh, you know, like of of being part of a federation, because we're all too races.

489
00:34:22.260 --> 00:34:26.280
You see, I, this scene is worth doing in the final episode.

490
00:34:26.340 --> 00:34:27.179
Don't you think?

491
00:34:27.539 --> 00:34:29.820
Still got a phone with his hands, I wasn't...

492
00:34:29.820 --> 00:34:31.199
Yeah, it's still on mine.

493
00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:42.900
He's talking about how he felt about Vulcans and now he's going back and he's teaching her about her, you know, racism against Andorians.

494
00:34:43.019 --> 00:34:48.480
And like that's a scene that's worth doing and it relies on them having a relationship.

495
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:51.960
And then the galley thing, like, that's cute.

496
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:54.000
I think the galley thing is cute.

497
00:34:54.059 --> 00:34:55.739
No, you're not going to like me saying this.

498
00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:59.400
I just see a pale imitation of Cisco and Kira right here.

499
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:05.039
Oh, yeah, it's just, it's just not as interesting and it's, it's not as well played.

500
00:35:05.099 --> 00:35:06.960
That's not a problem with this episode.

501
00:35:07.019 --> 00:35:11.699
That's a problem with the show. if I'm thinking about a series gone by.

502
00:35:11.820 --> 00:35:12.840
That's done this better.

503
00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:15.239
But a series of better cast.

504
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:18.960
So Porthos is very young and he doesn't seem to have aged in the last 7 years.

505
00:35:19.019 --> 00:35:22.800
I did notice that, especially just a bit of gray, you know, in Israel?

506
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:23.880
around the muzzle.

507
00:35:23.940 --> 00:35:27.119
Mind you, I feel as if they should have done that with some of the cast as well.

508
00:35:27.179 --> 00:35:28.739
Just make it a bit more obvious.

509
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:32.159
Yeah, they give, I mean, they give her a different wig.

510
00:35:32.219 --> 00:35:34.679
They give Hoshi more longer hair.

511
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:38.760
I kind of like this, don't do him any favours at all, do they?

512
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:43.260
No, but like he's a, you know, he's not hiding the fact that he's a middle-aged man.

513
00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:43.679
That's fine.

514
00:35:43.739 --> 00:35:44.579
I think that's all right.

515
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:47.400
Oh, no, look, I wear a wire right now, okay.

516
00:35:47.460 --> 00:35:50.639
You can only see this part of me, but it's on skies down there.

517
00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:54.360
So what I think is really fun here too.

518
00:35:54.420 --> 00:36:04.139
And it's, I think I compared it to you earlier on to the revelation that the doctors named himself Joe. that's finally what he's settled on for his name.

519
00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:05.760
I thought that was a good playoff.

520
00:36:05.820 --> 00:36:06.239
What a name.

521
00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:08.099
What a name.

522
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:16.800
And so, and so here, we've got this character of the chef who's been mentioned all the way through the show's run, we've never seen him, I think, is that right?

523
00:36:16.860 --> 00:36:19.079
I mentioned chef all the time.

524
00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:19.980
Over and over again.

525
00:36:20.039 --> 00:36:26.099
Usually as a way of getting out of scenes, you know, like, oh, I need to go and tell Chef what's on the menu today and stuff like this.

526
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:27.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

527
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:32.880
But, and so we never find out who chef is, but we get chef here and chef is Riker.

528
00:36:32.940 --> 00:36:37.860
And so we get a scene where he pretends that he knows them.

529
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:38.820
Do you know what I mean?

530
00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:48.659
acting as a character who knows and has a pre-existing relationship with all of these characters, they open up to him, and we're talking about Tripp, aren't we?

531
00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:54.059
We're talking about trip here because trip is sort of central to the question that Riker is here to answer.

532
00:36:54.119 --> 00:37:04.860
But like I just, like I just kind of like this, this is them just cooking the way that, you know, they do on Strange New Worlds and talking about people.

533
00:37:04.980 --> 00:37:14.940
And this, this speech where she talks about missing him, you know, that having been in a relationship with him and missing him.

534
00:37:15.780 --> 00:37:28.440
And I kind of like this, it's not what you would do now, it seems wrong, but it's just like he, he's older, he's a bit older than her, and he feels a bit sad for her.

535
00:37:28.500 --> 00:37:30.840
You know, like, I think that stuff lands.

536
00:37:30.900 --> 00:37:31.739
I think that lands.

537
00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:36.780
These must be the crew, and this is the crew of the show. is they're looking at pictures of a crew.

538
00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:41.280
That payoff of the chef thing, and we don't even actually know that that's true.

539
00:37:41.340 --> 00:37:45.059
I think we both just made up that they mentioned the chef lots of time, isn't it?

540
00:37:45.059 --> 00:37:46.079
Oh, I know that.

541
00:37:46.139 --> 00:37:51.360
It's a very niche payoff if it is, though. that's what you do in your last episode, isn't it?

542
00:37:51.420 --> 00:37:54.420
Like, you do have a story in your last episode.

543
00:37:54.539 --> 00:37:57.960
Oh, you do all that stuff as well. one of your jokes.

544
00:37:58.019 --> 00:37:59.039
Of course you do.

545
00:37:59.099 --> 00:38:00.719
That's exactly what you do in a finale.

546
00:38:00.780 --> 00:38:02.579
I don't know.

547
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:03.719
I don't know, do you know what?

548
00:38:03.780 --> 00:38:05.099
Again, I would listen to what you're saying.

549
00:38:05.159 --> 00:38:11.760
I appreciate what you're saying about, you know, simple character moments and hanging and cooking and all those lovely things.

550
00:38:11.820 --> 00:38:14.159
I'm still distracted by the fact that Riker's there.

551
00:38:14.219 --> 00:38:15.719
So it just doesn't feel real to me.

552
00:38:15.780 --> 00:38:17.519
But it's not real.

553
00:38:17.579 --> 00:38:20.219
It doesn't feel real to me either, but it's nice.

554
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:21.059
Like they're nice seeing.

555
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:22.800
I'm not invested in the moment then.

556
00:38:22.860 --> 00:38:25.920
I'll use a different word I'm not in understand that.

557
00:38:25.980 --> 00:38:30.059
It's like not being invested in the visitor because it didn't really happen.

558
00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:32.460
Well, that's an alternative universe.

559
00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:36.000
I'm not really invested in that either, but it's so well acted. give it a pass.

560
00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:39.420
Until the dreadful makeup hits.

561
00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:40.800
Oh my god, yeah.

562
00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:46.260
Here we are, lots of Next Generation scenes now in the Enterprise finale.

563
00:38:46.380 --> 00:38:50.159
Well, but it's a scene where we're all talking about, we're talking about the NXO1.

564
00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:54.539
And, you know, we're getting all of that stuff about the legacy of it.

565
00:38:54.599 --> 00:38:55.739
Oh, shit.

566
00:38:55.800 --> 00:38:57.599
She's not giving it reverence.

567
00:38:57.659 --> 00:38:58.860
She goes, I'll get them all mixed up.

568
00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:00.000
I'll compare it.

569
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:01.260
Which one is the NXO one?

570
00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:03.780
That's down of being Marina for a change.

571
00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:04.440
Look at this.

572
00:39:04.500 --> 00:39:05.820
Yeah, watch yourself.

573
00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:08.159
They talk about where's the where's the fish tank?

574
00:39:08.219 --> 00:39:10.559
How could Archer survive in here without a fish tank?

575
00:39:10.619 --> 00:39:12.960
I love those pictures of them.

576
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:15.719
Who's doing these cute scenes with Hoshi and the regulars?

577
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:19.739
I don't understand why we're doing this with these pairs.

578
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:26.219
Because we're trying to make this show have a legacy that it didn't get in its run.

579
00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:28.199
We're trying to rescue it.

580
00:39:28.260 --> 00:39:30.179
So is admitting defeat?

581
00:39:30.300 --> 00:39:32.880
Well, I think that's it failed.

582
00:39:32.940 --> 00:39:36.840
This is the last episode of series 4 and it's the end of series 4.

583
00:39:37.139 --> 00:39:37.619
It failed.

584
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:41.340
I just don't know if this ain't the biggest failure of all, though, this episode.

585
00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:47.460
See, I love all this sort of stuff with them wandering around the, wandering around the ship and commenting on it.

586
00:39:47.460 --> 00:39:48.900
And...

587
00:39:48.900 --> 00:39:51.059
Here we go.

588
00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:51.960
Here's the crew.

589
00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:53.460
There's one black guy.

590
00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:54.420
Oh, there's a woman.

591
00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:56.519
There's a lot of white guys in this scene, though.

592
00:39:56.579 --> 00:39:57.000
Look at that.

593
00:39:57.059 --> 00:40:15.119
You can't understand why they're pissed then, but they're basically, what you're saying is true, and they're reading this script, which is giving relevance to this show, that they've slayed their asses off for 4 years, by handing it to the next generation, and them, giving it some kind of relevance, you can understand why they're a bit pissed.

594
00:40:15.179 --> 00:40:16.559
Well, what was all of our hard work for?

595
00:40:16.860 --> 00:40:23.460
Well, but like it didn't erase the previous episodes of the show, they still exist.

596
00:40:23.460 --> 00:40:27.960
But at the 11th hour, it needs a better show to come along and say, well, that was worth doing.

597
00:40:28.019 --> 00:40:30.960
Yes, it does.

598
00:40:31.019 --> 00:40:38.460
And they should, they, they need to be realistic about having been in a failed show, which was not their fault, and this is what we do.

599
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:41.219
We try and give it a generous send off.

600
00:40:41.340 --> 00:40:47.159
I feel like they should go out on a triumphant high and not on a, Well, that didn't work, but...

601
00:40:47.460 --> 00:40:50.159
But it's not saying it didn't work.

602
00:40:50.219 --> 00:41:00.480
They're doing it because it didn't work, but they're saying this show is the thing without which we don't, we, without it, we don't get Star Trek the next generation.

603
00:41:00.539 --> 00:41:13.920
And it's clear at the very end, when we go back in time, we go at the very, very end, we get Captain Picard doing the thing over the Enterprise, D, we get Kirk doing it over the original Enterprise, and then we get Archer finishing it off at the end.

604
00:41:13.980 --> 00:41:19.679
And it's kind of like bringing it in, saying that this is part of that history and this is important.

605
00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:29.760
And it was, it, I think that's a generous thing to do. is to lend the weight of the far more successful show to the finale of this.

606
00:41:30.420 --> 00:41:33.719
Yeah, we really are coming at this from different angles.

607
00:41:33.780 --> 00:41:36.480
I just feel a way of disappointment watching this.

608
00:41:36.539 --> 00:41:39.840
Yeah, yeah, but I'm not...

609
00:41:39.900 --> 00:41:40.739
Yeah.

610
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:51.000
Oh, look, I think it would have been better to have a big good ending, but it would have been better if Endgame had been a big good ending as well.

611
00:41:51.059 --> 00:41:53.519
But the shows just weren't leading up to that.

612
00:41:53.579 --> 00:41:54.840
So what do you do?

613
00:41:54.900 --> 00:42:07.380
It's, it's that scene that I really like where it's a moment where it's absolutely Jonathan and Marina, where Marina sees Archer and goes, he's cute and Jonathan laughs and says, don't get any ideas.

614
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:12.420
So you're not coming on here to do porn with archer in the holodeck after I go.

615
00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:15.840
And but it's absolutely Jonathan laughing at Marina there.

616
00:42:19.619 --> 00:42:22.139
You know, I was watching as well.

617
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:41.699
In a minute, there's a kind of an action sequence on that, uh, when they save the little girl, and do you remember the action sequence in Broken Bow, where they, they're in this fabulous location, and it's all snow everywhere, and they're shooting through the snow, and it's visually very arresting.

618
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:43.559
Yeah.

619
00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:46.019
I'm not sure how we got from there to here.

620
00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:53.460
So at this point, we know that Tucker's going to die, but we haven't dwelt on it.

621
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:58.559
Doesn't Marina say he, you know, or someone says he thinks he's going to come home.

622
00:42:58.619 --> 00:42:59.460
Why does he need to die?

623
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:04.739
Well, I think it just gives the show...

624
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:05.579
Exactly.

625
00:43:05.639 --> 00:43:06.840
That's the best I can do.

626
00:43:06.900 --> 00:43:08.099
It feels unearned.

627
00:43:08.460 --> 00:43:12.420
Yeah, it does feel unearned because he dies for a dumb reason.

628
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:22.500
Like, it's like the most generic space people come on board and offer the least interesting threat imaginable, and he has to kill himself in order to save Archer.

629
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:24.719
It's a bit it's a bit mundane.

630
00:43:24.780 --> 00:43:29.880
You and I have established doing enterprise episodes in the past that we really like Connor Trinier.

631
00:43:29.940 --> 00:43:31.920
We really like Tripp when they get him right.

632
00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:33.900
And you absolutely.

633
00:43:33.960 --> 00:43:37.920
He's the one you kind of do feel something for because he's got this sort of wounded puppy look.

634
00:43:37.980 --> 00:43:38.820
He does, you know.

635
00:43:38.940 --> 00:43:42.000
So I should be all over this shit when he does.

636
00:43:42.059 --> 00:43:43.139
What about this scene?

637
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:45.480
Like, I think this scene is really nice.

638
00:43:45.539 --> 00:43:58.139
Because they've broken up at some point and she is telling him after having that chat with Chef, she's telling him that she's going to miss him.

639
00:43:58.139 --> 00:44:04.079
And she doesn't yet know, we know, but she doesn't yet know how much she's going to miss him.

640
00:44:04.139 --> 00:44:19.559
And this, you know, like, Like, just the 2 of them, you know, we've moved beyond the sort of, we're rubbing, uh, gel into each other's tits stage of the relationship. 2 years we were doing that for.

641
00:44:19.739 --> 00:44:26.940
And now it's kind of something that's a little bit more grown up and a little bit more kind of a little bit sad and wistful.

642
00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:29.039
I think that's a good scene, you know.

643
00:44:29.099 --> 00:44:30.420
It's a good scene.

644
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:31.139
I, you know what?

645
00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:32.699
I think another issue.

646
00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:48.480
I'm having with my list of issues is, is the fact that the last time we saw them, they were in a relationship, you know, they were having a baby and all of this, and I don't know what's on the best split up, and that sort of intervening gap, it, it, it just feels absent, you know?

647
00:44:48.539 --> 00:44:51.420
Yeah, but that's why this feels honour.

648
00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:56.699
Well, what it feels like, when Manikozo says it's a coder rather than a finale.

649
00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:02.039
It's a little bit like the 1st enterprise film.

650
00:45:02.099 --> 00:45:03.239
Do you know what I mean?

651
00:45:03.300 --> 00:45:07.500
It's like if we were to, if we were to have the film, we would have jumped ahead 7 years.

652
00:45:07.559 --> 00:45:09.119
We would have seen how everyone had gone.

653
00:45:09.179 --> 00:45:13.139
We would have seen how they changed. how their relationships among each other changed.

654
00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:14.219
That's how those things were.

655
00:45:14.280 --> 00:45:16.739
You make a you make a good point there.

656
00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:17.880
How things have changed.

657
00:45:17.940 --> 00:45:21.599
TNG straight to a film within, you know, a month.

658
00:45:21.659 --> 00:45:24.119
Now, it's like we can't end this quick enough.

659
00:45:24.179 --> 00:45:26.099
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

660
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:26.699
Yeah.

661
00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:29.159
Oh, these villains.

662
00:45:29.219 --> 00:45:31.500
I mean, what do you remember about these villains?

663
00:45:31.559 --> 00:45:46.559
That guy has like the weird ridges that he has on his face, like it's a track that something's going to run down, like a model train. train. and this is the other fucking baffling thing.

664
00:45:46.619 --> 00:45:56.219
So we've had heaps of dialogue about how this amethyst that they've created is undetectable without a neutronic something or other. completely undetectable.

665
00:45:56.280 --> 00:46:00.900
So we'll swap it for the baby and then we'll the child and then we'll leave.

666
00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:04.679
But for some reason they decide to make it into a bomb.

667
00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:07.199
Like, I don't know why, like, like, look at this.

668
00:46:07.260 --> 00:46:08.579
It's so dumb.

669
00:46:08.639 --> 00:46:09.420
It's so dumb.

670
00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:13.619
And it looks like one of those cheap crystals you get when you go to the Festival Maze place, yeah.

671
00:46:13.679 --> 00:46:15.719
That's very Star Trek.

672
00:46:15.780 --> 00:46:17.940
It starts sort of flashing, yeah.

673
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:24.840
So it gives them a child to do strobe lighting and stuff like this and make this really look good and they just flash it like 3 times and that's it.

674
00:46:24.900 --> 00:46:27.059
But like, why do they even do that?

675
00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:30.360
Why don't they just say, all right, we've got the kid Legger.

676
00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:33.599
You've done something atmospheric with it, you know?

677
00:46:33.659 --> 00:46:36.960
And instead it's just like, oh, well, that's got them away, you know?

678
00:46:37.019 --> 00:46:43.619
But also, if it's a bomb, why aren't they injured or dead or anything, like, what the hell was the point of it?

679
00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:45.480
They turned it into a bomb.

680
00:46:45.539 --> 00:46:49.260
It didn't do anything and it still leaves them alive.

681
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:52.619
It still left them alive to come back on board the ship later and kill Tripp.

682
00:46:52.679 --> 00:47:00.000
It's ridiculous. is so bad that later on when he comes on the Enterprise, he literally says, I'm not going to kill him now.

683
00:47:00.059 --> 00:47:04.139
We'll be gone for 10 minutes and if we're not back, then you can kill him.

684
00:47:04.260 --> 00:47:04.980
Kill him then.

685
00:47:04.980 --> 00:47:05.400
What?

686
00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:05.639
Yeah.

687
00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:08.880
So late. so he's detecting it.

688
00:47:08.940 --> 00:47:10.679
We're up here for some reason.

689
00:47:10.739 --> 00:47:12.599
I'm not quite sure what we're doing.

690
00:47:12.659 --> 00:47:14.940
I do like a bit of scaffolding, Enterprise.

691
00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:17.280
I like sort of high shooting down shots, you know?

692
00:47:17.340 --> 00:47:19.739
Well, they're kind of shooting in a warehouse or something.

693
00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:21.000
Yeah, so it explodes.

694
00:47:21.059 --> 00:47:21.780
Why does it do that?

695
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:22.380
We don't know.

696
00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:24.420
It's not good, isn't it?

697
00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:25.139
just sort of flashing.

698
00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:27.719
No, it's just flashing what so that they can get away?

699
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:35.880
As far as I can see, the only thing that it's achieving is it's lightening up your pretty face even more than it is on the screen.

700
00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:39.900
But apart from that, no, there's no reason.

701
00:47:39.960 --> 00:47:43.199
Yeah, it is a bit. a bit of largy barge here.

702
00:47:43.260 --> 00:47:43.920
People running about.

703
00:47:43.980 --> 00:47:47.579
There's a macco, Riker gets to be a macco there.

704
00:47:47.579 --> 00:47:51.300
Think about that glorious sequence in where the Warrior, where they're fighting on the promenade.

705
00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:53.039
I mean, it shits all over this, doesn't it?

706
00:47:53.159 --> 00:47:54.239
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

707
00:47:54.300 --> 00:47:56.760
But that's always an enterprise problem, isn't it?

708
00:47:56.820 --> 00:47:57.780
No one really cares.

709
00:47:57.840 --> 00:47:59.219
These people are super boring.

710
00:47:59.340 --> 00:48:02.340
This is just eating up running time.

711
00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:08.940
It's just weird how actions got sort of less interesting as time's gone on in the 90s into the 2000s.

712
00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:09.960
Nothing's at stake.

713
00:48:10.019 --> 00:48:11.579
Why are we even still here?

714
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:15.599
You know, I would have loved for him to die like this falling off this paddle.

715
00:48:15.659 --> 00:48:16.860
Yeah.

716
00:48:17.099 --> 00:48:21.480
So, I mean, that, like that's what's happening, isn't it?

717
00:48:21.539 --> 00:48:24.059
Is it supposed to be tense because we think Tripp's going to die?

718
00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:28.260
A truly heroic death in the service of saving Schran's daughter, you know?

719
00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:29.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

720
00:48:29.519 --> 00:48:31.139
By falling off a theme.

721
00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:35.159
Instead what happens, what he saves Archer and gets electrocuted or something.

722
00:48:35.219 --> 00:48:38.519
He saves, yeah, killing those guys. blows them up.

723
00:48:38.579 --> 00:48:39.659
So boring.

724
00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:41.699
What a boring way to go.

725
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:43.800
Actually, I think it's better than.

726
00:48:43.860 --> 00:48:49.139
At least Jadzia gets fried alive by evil gold to cut as he's taken the wormhole out.

727
00:48:49.739 --> 00:48:52.079
I know, but it's more exciting than this.

728
00:48:52.139 --> 00:48:53.280
Well, yeah.

729
00:48:53.340 --> 00:49:05.219
But it's very definitely, it's so that the kids at home know that it's purely contractual, you know, that she's dying in the finale just because Terry's not banking.

730
00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:07.199
She gets the ultimate soap line, isn't she?

731
00:49:07.260 --> 00:49:07.920
You know, about a baby.

732
00:49:07.980 --> 00:49:08.820
Oh my god.

733
00:49:08.820 --> 00:49:09.599
So bad.

734
00:49:09.659 --> 00:49:12.480
I can't say I felt anything there either.

735
00:49:12.539 --> 00:49:14.760
I laughed a lot, yeah?

736
00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:17.460
Wow, pink skin.

737
00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:18.360
Yeah.

738
00:49:18.420 --> 00:49:19.800
Still doing that.

739
00:49:19.860 --> 00:49:23.340
Yeah, we're still doing that, even though it really only works for white people.

740
00:49:24.539 --> 00:49:26.460
Oh, well, that's it.

741
00:49:26.519 --> 00:49:27.000
We've done that.

742
00:49:27.059 --> 00:49:29.039
We can end the episode down.

743
00:49:29.099 --> 00:49:30.900
Yeah, yeah. let's just head off.

744
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:33.059
It's time for him to write his speech.

745
00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:36.059
How did they come up all the enterprise?

746
00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:38.159
I think I've zoned out at that point.

747
00:49:38.219 --> 00:49:39.119
I don't know.

748
00:49:39.179 --> 00:49:41.280
No, they're on a on a shuttle.

749
00:49:41.340 --> 00:49:43.139
Beautiful shot.

750
00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:46.739
I did like these fabulous rocks past the windows in the Enterprise.

751
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:51.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah Does that happen in Pegasus?

752
00:49:51.059 --> 00:49:54.599
I can't remember No, it's the sort of thing they couldn't really do back in the day, isn't it?

753
00:49:54.659 --> 00:49:56.940
So now they're taking advantage of that.

754
00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:01.260
I like having data for one last little interaction too.

755
00:50:01.739 --> 00:50:04.559
Well, until Picard comes along, of course.

756
00:50:04.619 --> 00:50:05.820
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

757
00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:11.400
But like that's a while away now and look, look how much Marina loves Brand, bless her.

758
00:50:11.519 --> 00:50:17.579
I mean, imagine if this was how we would have seen next generation off as well. in this dreary episode.

759
00:50:18.300 --> 00:50:20.400
I mean, I'm very pleased.

760
00:50:20.460 --> 00:50:22.860
I know I had a few issues with that Picard Series 3.

761
00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:26.340
But boy, I boy, did they celebrate the next generation in that season?

762
00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:28.679
Yeah, yeah, it's so great.

763
00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:32.699
Oh, no, or that side shot on his tummy.

764
00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:33.239
I'm sorry.

765
00:50:33.300 --> 00:50:35.280
I know, I know, I know.

766
00:50:35.340 --> 00:50:37.860
Yeah. happens to us all.

767
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:40.619
I'm just literally 11 years ago.

768
00:50:40.679 --> 00:50:45.840
We saw that sort of lovely swelt William Riker from Skin of Evil the other day, didn't we?

769
00:50:45.900 --> 00:50:46.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

770
00:50:46.860 --> 00:50:48.719
Well, you know, that's all right.

771
00:50:48.840 --> 00:50:50.159
Yes.

772
00:50:50.219 --> 00:50:53.219
Marina somehow looks more beautiful though.

773
00:50:53.280 --> 00:50:55.440
Yeah, she's so fabulous.

774
00:50:55.500 --> 00:50:58.500
I mean, I don't know what they would do with her in series one.

775
00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:01.260
They put that bun on her head and that horrible black question.

776
00:51:01.320 --> 00:51:01.800
That's terrible.

777
00:51:01.860 --> 00:51:04.079
She looks gorgeous in a Starfleet uniform.

778
00:51:04.139 --> 00:51:07.260
See, I don't know why we're going through all this.

779
00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:12.059
And I think that this is a complete waste of our time.

780
00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:13.320
Oh, so you mean this scene?

781
00:51:13.380 --> 00:51:14.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

782
00:51:14.760 --> 00:51:25.139
It just goes on for too long and like, we are sort of, like, I don't think we do a particularly good job of motivating, like, why is Riker watching this episode?

783
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:32.760
Um, you know, in particular, and they kind of sort of try and make it work, but it doesn't quite work.

784
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:35.880
Oh, she...

785
00:51:35.940 --> 00:51:42.960
I mean, they did this scene in best of both worlds, you know, when she says to him, you know, you're getting a little seasoned, you know, in your old age.

786
00:51:43.019 --> 00:51:45.000
It was a lot better then.

787
00:51:45.059 --> 00:51:51.420
Look, here we get, here we get Reed talking about...

788
00:51:51.480 --> 00:52:05.820
There's actually one moment where they nearly out, he was gay, and then, like, they queer bait, and then, um, and then walk away from it as a kind of joke, and I'll kind of give them that, I think.

789
00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:11.579
So you've got him talking about Reed, talking about Tripp.

790
00:52:11.639 --> 00:52:15.300
Um, Nothing very much.

791
00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:18.300
Yeah, did you ever find yourself attracted to him, Riker says.

792
00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:25.440
And then we discover that he's talking to Hoshi. 15 seconds.

793
00:52:25.500 --> 00:52:28.260
Yeah, that's all he gets, this, that's all he gets.

794
00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:29.760
No wonder he was pissed.

795
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:31.079
Well, he's got nothing.

796
00:52:31.139 --> 00:52:33.000
What are we going to talk to read about?

797
00:52:33.059 --> 00:52:37.199
Like, honestly, can we just come to some conclusions about these characters?

798
00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:43.199
I know they're nothing characters. 15 seconds with Riker in the holodeck.

799
00:52:43.260 --> 00:52:43.559
I mean.

800
00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:48.719
Oh, here's Anti Montgomery.

801
00:52:48.780 --> 00:52:50.760
Yeah, they get hardly anything.

802
00:52:50.820 --> 00:52:52.320
I would have made him the star of the show.

803
00:52:52.380 --> 00:52:53.340
Look at him. gorgeous.

804
00:52:53.400 --> 00:52:54.420
Yeah, yeah.

805
00:52:54.539 --> 00:52:59.760
He's just young and pretty and like there was going to be something generational about him.

806
00:52:59.820 --> 00:53:06.000
He was like a young person who'd grown up in space, you know, I don't know, there's just a missed opportunity.

807
00:53:06.059 --> 00:53:14.519
Oh, he was very humble, actually, when he was talking on that big group interview and he said, look, I go, I didn't get much to do, but I got to hang out with these fabulous people for years.

808
00:53:14.579 --> 00:53:15.480
So never mind.

809
00:53:15.539 --> 00:53:17.280
It is a great shame.

810
00:53:17.340 --> 00:53:21.000
It would have been great if you got to hang out with them and have some good things to do as well.

811
00:53:21.059 --> 00:53:22.980
I like this.

812
00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:24.300
This is pretty great.

813
00:53:24.360 --> 00:53:28.199
Here's Dr. Fox and any scene with Dr. Fox is really good.

814
00:53:28.260 --> 00:53:30.599
Literally the best character in Enterprise.

815
00:53:30.659 --> 00:53:31.800
He should have been there.

816
00:53:31.800 --> 00:53:32.639
He should have been.

817
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:34.559
It should have been his daughter they were going after.

818
00:53:34.619 --> 00:53:36.179
We've established he's got children.

819
00:53:36.239 --> 00:53:55.019
Yeah, so like this, like it's really funny, like he, he orders him to get 6 hours sleep and Tripp negotiates him down, talks him down to four. and like, that's actually quite cute, you know, like, and you've got, you've got flocks doing some cooking and kind of enjoying it.

820
00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:57.900
Like, there is something nice about all of this, I think.

821
00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:01.440
Like, that's just a little bit of time to celebrate the crew.

822
00:54:01.500 --> 00:54:02.699
We can be done with more.

823
00:54:02.760 --> 00:54:03.599
BC.

824
00:54:03.659 --> 00:54:06.239
These are scenes we get in strange new worlds every week.

825
00:54:06.300 --> 00:54:09.420
Oh yeah, but you don't get them in Enterprise.

826
00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:11.460
We celebrate the end of the show.

827
00:54:11.699 --> 00:54:14.039
We should have had in series one.

828
00:54:14.099 --> 00:54:15.719
But it's too late for that now.

829
00:54:15.780 --> 00:54:17.699
So at least they're here now.

830
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:18.659
Do you know what I mean?

831
00:54:18.719 --> 00:54:19.559
Like that's it.

832
00:54:19.619 --> 00:54:22.619
Thank you for getting around to showing them cooking.

833
00:54:22.679 --> 00:54:24.900
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

834
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:27.719
I love those things with Captain Pike when he's cooking.

835
00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:29.159
When Cisco's cooking as well.

836
00:54:29.219 --> 00:54:30.119
Yeah, yeah.

837
00:54:30.179 --> 00:54:32.519
When I've done it, I've done it.

838
00:54:32.519 --> 00:54:33.900
And he's got a bit over the top with it.

839
00:54:33.960 --> 00:54:38.340
But here we get mentions Ephraim Cochrane again and the father and stuff.

840
00:54:38.400 --> 00:54:52.079
And here we get, and it would have been better, I think, to have had, have made this the through line for the actual enterprise episode where it's, he hasn't written his speech yet.

841
00:54:52.139 --> 00:55:07.380
And we only get it mentioned here for the 1st time, and we're, what, 15 minutes from the end, and that's going to be the thing, and the episode ends, like Archer Story ends with him striding out towards the podium, you know.

842
00:55:07.380 --> 00:55:09.659
We get all this false tension before then.

843
00:55:09.659 --> 00:55:11.460
And a pointless death.

844
00:55:11.519 --> 00:55:13.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

845
00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:14.280
What is this?

846
00:55:14.340 --> 00:55:15.420
I know.

847
00:55:15.480 --> 00:55:16.260
How do they get on?

848
00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:19.980
Like they had a warp to ship, you know, like...

849
00:55:19.980 --> 00:55:21.719
There was just a sort of wobble off the camera.

850
00:55:21.780 --> 00:55:22.559
So that was it.

851
00:55:22.619 --> 00:55:23.940
That's them.

852
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:26.159
There you go, Alan, that's Alan earning his money this week.

853
00:55:26.219 --> 00:55:32.280
We've abandoned all of the sort of ghastly racism we had in series one that made everyone so unlikeable.

854
00:55:32.340 --> 00:55:33.900
So we have made a few strides.

855
00:55:33.960 --> 00:55:38.699
Yeah, we kind of have, but I mean, still mostly aliens are evil.

856
00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:52.500
And there's one moment that I quite liked where, yeah, so he punches Archer, he punches Archer and then saves him, like this is to save his life.

857
00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:59.400
But there's a scene a bit later where they say, you know, Tripp would have thought it was worthwhile, even though it ended in this terrible way.

858
00:55:59.460 --> 00:56:05.519
Even though, you know, so many of our encounters with aliens went bad, it was still worth it.

859
00:56:05.579 --> 00:56:12.900
I felt, as well, in this scene, there was a bit of awkward blocking and it felt a bit improvised as well with the acting.

860
00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:17.039
It felt like a 1st take version of this scene rather than that.

861
00:56:17.099 --> 00:56:21.059
It's almost like, shit, the terror down the sets, get in that corridor and shoot that scene now.

862
00:56:21.119 --> 00:56:22.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

863
00:56:23.039 --> 00:56:24.420
There was a bit of that, wasn't there?

864
00:56:24.480 --> 00:56:31.440
They literally said that, yeah, as they were filming, as they were doing the last shot with each one, they were tearing them down.

865
00:56:31.500 --> 00:56:31.739
Yeah.

866
00:56:31.800 --> 00:56:34.260
But apparently that happened with Voyager and DS9 as well.

867
00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:37.199
Oh, that promenade set being torn down.

868
00:56:37.260 --> 00:56:38.099
What a crime.

869
00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:40.980
They've remade it in Las Vegas nature.

870
00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:41.699
We'll go one day.

871
00:56:41.760 --> 00:56:45.059
Yes, we should do that. drinking corks bar.

872
00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:48.960
So, so, yes.

873
00:56:49.019 --> 00:56:50.940
And like I had never watched this before.

874
00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:55.619
I knew that he was bluffing and that these had nothing to do with communications and stuff.

875
00:56:56.820 --> 00:57:05.159
But yeah, all of this, like this is such a low rent threat and where he has to kill himself in order to get out of it.

876
00:57:05.280 --> 00:57:06.539
Mid season jeopardy, isn't it?

877
00:57:06.599 --> 00:57:08.460
It's worse than that, though.

878
00:57:08.519 --> 00:57:09.480
I think it'd be bad.

879
00:57:09.539 --> 00:57:11.219
It's like mid-episode Jeopardy.

880
00:57:11.280 --> 00:57:12.300
Do you know what I mean?

881
00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:14.460
Like, it's not even the final threat.

882
00:57:14.579 --> 00:57:17.880
The client, the final jeopardy of the series.

883
00:57:17.940 --> 00:57:19.199
Yeah, yeah.

884
00:57:19.260 --> 00:57:20.820
Yeah, this.

885
00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:21.360
There he goes.

886
00:57:21.420 --> 00:57:22.380
They're all dead.

887
00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:25.139
Even that explosion was a bit lame, wouldn't it?

888
00:57:25.199 --> 00:57:28.260
It's just like sort of nothing puff of smoke.

889
00:57:28.380 --> 00:57:33.179
Yeah, so he isn't too blowed up, you know, when he gets to Sick Bay, I guess.

890
00:57:33.300 --> 00:57:35.639
Ah, so that can all sort of...

891
00:57:35.699 --> 00:57:40.019
Well, because he does a little wink and a thumbs up as he goes, gets pushed into the thing.

892
00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:42.119
They do blow these enterprise steps up quite well, though.

893
00:57:42.179 --> 00:57:43.980
That's a big destruction, very good.

894
00:57:44.039 --> 00:57:49.380
That's really great. torn holes in the wall and exposed wires.

895
00:57:49.440 --> 00:57:56.760
Although, nothing's as good as that one in series 3 when all the Zindi ships blow the shit out of the enterprise and the singling falls down.

896
00:57:56.820 --> 00:57:57.300
That's great.

897
00:57:59.099 --> 00:58:01.920
It's so bad we've lost the ceiling.

898
00:58:01.980 --> 00:58:03.420
He's dead.

899
00:58:03.480 --> 00:58:06.360
There's Riken there again to remind us all.

900
00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:07.559
I know. going stop saying it.

901
00:58:07.619 --> 00:58:08.820
Well, that's why he's watching it.

902
00:58:08.880 --> 00:58:10.739
To remind us that it's a TV show.

903
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:12.300
It really is a TV show.

904
00:58:12.360 --> 00:58:13.739
It's not a TV show.

905
00:58:13.800 --> 00:58:15.000
It is yourself.

906
00:58:16.500 --> 00:58:19.019
It's real life, though.

907
00:58:19.139 --> 00:58:21.000
This is trip apologising.

908
00:58:21.059 --> 00:58:25.079
They should have made it clear that Flux was giving him a lot of drugs at this point.

909
00:58:25.559 --> 00:58:27.179
Oh, actually.

910
00:58:27.179 --> 00:58:30.119
That's a lot better than Tashios, blah, blah, blah, isn't it?

911
00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:31.739
I saw a few weeks ago.

912
00:58:32.219 --> 00:58:39.300
Although, you know, imagine if we had that...

913
00:58:39.360 --> 00:58:45.360
But that's, I mean, I quite like that interchange as well where Tripp is absolutely concerned about the mission.

914
00:58:45.420 --> 00:58:50.579
Like, you know, he sacrifices himself to save Archer so that Archer can give that speech.

915
00:58:50.639 --> 00:58:55.260
And so when Archer says, I'll be able to write my speech, he goes, great news.

916
00:58:55.320 --> 00:58:57.780
And this is the, and this is the thing.

917
00:58:57.840 --> 00:58:58.739
This is the thing.

918
00:58:58.800 --> 00:59:06.179
When we kill him in the final episode, in a sense, it doesn't matter because we don't miss out on him.

919
00:59:06.300 --> 00:59:20.519
But I think that they make the point really, really well, in a scene that absolutely surprised and impressed me, that I thought was a very unusual thing, Star Trek to do.

920
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:23.880
There is no impression at all.

921
00:59:23.940 --> 00:59:25.440
Scuba diving off Florida.

922
00:59:25.500 --> 00:59:31.980
In fact, which is what annoyed me about this was that they waited till the last episode where they don't have to deal with this afterwards.

923
00:59:32.039 --> 00:59:34.019
At least with Terry Farrell.

924
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:36.840
We had a year afterwards where we dealt with the emotional consequences.

925
00:59:36.900 --> 00:59:43.139
To be fair, that was, you know, forced on them.

926
00:59:43.199 --> 00:59:47.280
Due to the producers being bricks. not having a conversation with her about pay.

927
00:59:48.659 --> 01:00:17.820
This, and I love this scene, actually, and it's about, like, it mentions her mother who we saw die earlier in series 4 in the, you know, Keshara episode that we watched, where Tapul's mother was killed, and we were introduced to her as a sort of semi-regular character for a few episodes, and she talks about how Tripp told her that the pain would lessen.

928
01:00:17.880 --> 01:00:21.119
She would miss her less as time went on.

929
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:24.480
And she said, but that's not been my experience.

930
01:00:24.539 --> 01:00:25.500
I miss her more.

931
01:00:25.559 --> 01:00:29.760
And so we'd had them talking about missing one another.

932
01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:36.599
And, like, I just, yeah, this, Tripp told me as the years went by that I would miss her less.

933
01:00:36.659 --> 01:00:40.920
And like, the dialogue's not that great, but I think it's a nice moment.

934
01:00:40.920 --> 01:00:53.400
And I think, like, if you're, you have to have something that they're going to act about, you know, and you have to have something that's going to motivate them talking about, if we kill him in this final episode, we never miss him in a way.

935
01:00:53.460 --> 01:01:01.440
Um, and it's kind of sad if you think that this is all real and he doesn't go on to have a rich and happy life because we were never going to see that.

936
01:01:01.500 --> 01:01:02.699
We were never going to see him again.

937
01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:04.019
So in a way, it doesn't matter.

938
01:01:04.139 --> 01:01:17.760
Um, So, so I didn't feel that it was as gratuitous and as kind of mean spirited as I thought it must have been originally, because it gives the characters the chance to react in this way.

939
01:01:17.820 --> 01:01:36.480
There is something about these whispers of performances that just don't move me in a way that the best of Voyager, you know, Kate Mulgrew and Jerry Ryan, and the best of DS9, Nana Visitor, and when they have dialogue scenes like this, they really move me.

940
01:01:36.539 --> 01:01:38.159
I just got nothing from this.

941
01:01:38.219 --> 01:01:42.480
Well, I just don't think you can blame this episode for that, though.

942
01:01:42.539 --> 01:01:48.719
No, no, I mean, it's a show in general, but they're trying to make a point here and they're trying to move you and it's not happening.

943
01:01:49.199 --> 01:01:51.239
See, I like that.

944
01:01:51.300 --> 01:01:59.159
I like, and that look, and his look, like, I was a little bit worried that he would be too stoic, and this, I think this is wonderful.

945
01:01:59.219 --> 01:02:00.900
His trip.

946
01:02:00.960 --> 01:02:05.039
He's back because he's not really dead.

947
01:02:05.099 --> 01:02:08.699
He's a character in a TV show and we can see him.

948
01:02:08.699 --> 01:02:10.380
I really do think that we want.

949
01:02:10.440 --> 01:02:13.619
I would like to point us out. only you think this way.

950
01:02:13.679 --> 01:02:17.579
Everybody else is like, okay, he's just died and here he is again.

951
01:02:17.639 --> 01:02:19.679
Well, because...

952
01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:20.880
The TV show.

953
01:02:20.940 --> 01:02:24.599
And so we get to see him and I think that is so much better.

954
01:02:24.659 --> 01:02:28.019
This is what they tried to do with Tasha.

955
01:02:28.079 --> 01:02:28.980
Do you know what I mean?

956
01:02:29.039 --> 01:02:34.139
It's like, let's have her alive and she's in heaven and she gets a chance to tell everyone how much she loves.

957
01:02:34.199 --> 01:02:37.440
But this, I love this.

958
01:02:37.500 --> 01:02:39.960
Like, he talks to him.

959
01:02:40.019 --> 01:02:50.699
He knows how this ends for him and then he goes back in time and gets the chance to talk to him and we get to see how charming and beautiful he is.

960
01:02:50.940 --> 01:02:52.139
Look at him.

961
01:02:52.199 --> 01:02:54.119
He's just so adorable.

962
01:02:54.239 --> 01:02:59.340
Do you feel like the death of Joyce Summers in Buffy would have been better at the end of the episode?

963
01:02:59.400 --> 01:03:02.820
We haven't seen where she walked in and talked to Buffy.

964
01:03:02.880 --> 01:03:05.699
I don't want to mind that as a Star Trek.

965
01:03:05.760 --> 01:03:07.019
No, it would have been.

966
01:03:07.019 --> 01:03:08.039
I don't want to say that.

967
01:03:08.099 --> 01:03:23.400
No, but you do get vampires in the final scene of that episode, the body, just to remind you of what this show is really about and to say something about death in a very odd way.

968
01:03:23.460 --> 01:03:24.960
But fear.

969
01:03:25.019 --> 01:03:30.360
It's so odd to juxtapose his death scene and then then reacting to his death.

970
01:03:30.599 --> 01:03:31.980
I think it's terrible.

971
01:03:32.039 --> 01:03:33.539
No, it's awful.

972
01:03:33.599 --> 01:03:34.380
No.

973
01:03:34.440 --> 01:03:37.079
It's a series of bad choices.

974
01:03:37.139 --> 01:03:37.980
This is one of the worst.

975
01:03:38.039 --> 01:03:40.860
No, this is the final say.

976
01:03:40.920 --> 01:03:43.860
Finally, we don't, the last time that we've seen him.

977
01:03:43.920 --> 01:03:52.800
We get to see him smiling and beautiful and we get to remember him and it's wistful because he does...

978
01:03:53.219 --> 01:03:55.619
Oh, he asks, he asks Chef about the future.

979
01:03:58.980 --> 01:04:00.960
Yeah, I love that.

980
01:04:01.019 --> 01:04:03.360
I just think, you know, he's not real.

981
01:04:03.420 --> 01:04:06.179
He's, you know, the death of the character.

982
01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:11.880
It's a thing and it gets the characters to react, but we get to go back and we get to see him.

983
01:04:11.940 --> 01:04:15.119
And because we could have done that in a flashback.

984
01:04:15.480 --> 01:04:16.739
I know this.

985
01:04:16.860 --> 01:04:23.340
We could have done that in a flashback, but instead Riker creates the flashback. does a flashback for us.

986
01:04:23.400 --> 01:04:25.440
That's so...

987
01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:29.340
To me, it just feels like it's just fundamentally misunderstand how to traumatise something.

988
01:04:29.820 --> 01:04:36.360
No, I think that you're, I think that...

989
01:04:36.420 --> 01:04:39.000
Yeah, I think that you're that person.

990
01:04:39.059 --> 01:04:44.760
It's a TV show and this is a TV drama and it's using the things that TV drama can do.

991
01:04:44.820 --> 01:04:51.000
But sometimes when I'm watching a TV show, I like to forget it's a TV show and just enjoy it on its own terms.

992
01:04:51.059 --> 01:04:54.960
I don't need to be reminded every 5 minutes that it's a TV show.

993
01:04:55.019 --> 01:04:57.900
No, but you don't, it shouldn't need to be reminded.

994
01:04:57.960 --> 01:04:59.099
It's clearly a TV show.

995
01:04:59.159 --> 01:05:00.539
Like, that's the thing.

996
01:05:00.599 --> 01:05:09.179
And so watching how stories unfold watching what the writers are deciding to do, watching what the directors are deciding to do, that's the pleasure.

997
01:05:09.239 --> 01:05:14.340
Like the pleasure is not just, you know, disappearing into a world where there are these characters.

998
01:05:14.400 --> 01:05:19.260
It's being told a story by skilled people who are making decisions.

999
01:05:20.519 --> 01:05:23.340
Because I'm not talking a story, not a wife.

1000
01:05:23.400 --> 01:05:24.300
That's true.

1001
01:05:24.360 --> 01:05:25.079
That's true.

1002
01:05:25.139 --> 01:05:26.699
I like this scene too.

1003
01:05:26.760 --> 01:05:36.420
Unfortunately, a series by people that fundamentally dismantled the franchise and murdered.

1004
01:05:36.480 --> 01:05:37.739
And here's a good example of why.

1005
01:05:37.800 --> 01:05:42.420
Nah, so, but this, I mean, I kind of like this.

1006
01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:53.099
So they were talking about staying with, um, you know, like, uh, I think Travis and and Malcolm were going to stay with with Archer or something like that.

1007
01:05:53.159 --> 01:05:55.800
Oh, here's Billy for the last...

1008
01:05:55.920 --> 01:05:59.579
I like this bit, you got the 2 best characters here, to poll and flocks.

1009
01:05:59.639 --> 01:06:01.320
I'm an acute moment with Archer.

1010
01:06:01.380 --> 01:06:03.000
Okay, that's quite nice.

1011
01:06:03.059 --> 01:06:04.800
And the smile.

1012
01:06:04.860 --> 01:06:05.880
We get the smile.

1013
01:06:06.239 --> 01:06:11.519
I just don't think that CGI audience was acceptable even then.

1014
01:06:11.519 --> 01:06:13.739
No, but the smile is pretty great.

1015
01:06:13.739 --> 01:06:15.239
That smile is good.

1016
01:06:15.300 --> 01:06:16.679
And I like this.

1017
01:06:16.739 --> 01:06:21.000
I do like that he walks out there and we don't quite see it happen.

1018
01:06:21.059 --> 01:06:25.980
Well, you know that the Federation gets founded because it's been there all episode.

1019
01:06:26.039 --> 01:06:28.679
I thought it was a good summation of the show.

1020
01:06:28.739 --> 01:06:30.239
Enterprise ducking the moment.

1021
01:06:30.480 --> 01:06:34.500
Oh, no, no, I think that's a deliberate thing that you do.

1022
01:06:34.559 --> 01:06:41.820
It's a little bit, the thing that it reminds me of. is the end of Angel, which ends mid...

1023
01:06:41.940 --> 01:06:43.260
They're just about to have a fight.

1024
01:06:43.320 --> 01:06:45.179
Are you using this in your defence?

1025
01:06:45.239 --> 01:06:47.280
And Wesley's about to die.

1026
01:06:47.280 --> 01:06:50.579
And we never find out what happens.

1027
01:06:50.639 --> 01:06:51.719
Do you know what I mean?

1028
01:06:51.780 --> 01:07:15.119
And like the thing that you get to do in a TV show, which this one does, and like the others, the others may be, maybe what you leave behind, but none of them aggressively, as aggressively goes, and we're done with this story, and it's going to end at this, this point before something hugely important happens, and you know that it's going to be important.

1029
01:07:15.179 --> 01:07:16.139
I like it.

1030
01:07:16.199 --> 01:07:17.940
Marino in the background or that shock.

1031
01:07:18.000 --> 01:07:21.780
She's never quite sure what to do until Riker turns up.

1032
01:07:21.840 --> 01:07:24.360
So she's just sort of like, oh, what a lovely scene.

1033
01:07:24.420 --> 01:07:25.320
Watching telly.

1034
01:07:25.380 --> 01:07:26.460
She's watching telly.

1035
01:07:26.519 --> 01:07:26.940
That's it.

1036
01:07:30.420 --> 01:07:33.059
That, yeah, yeah, here we go.

1037
01:07:33.119 --> 01:07:33.780
There you go.

1038
01:07:33.840 --> 01:07:37.139
Tell us how important all this was for the last 4 years.

1039
01:07:37.199 --> 01:07:38.219
Yeah.

1040
01:07:38.280 --> 01:07:39.059
Yeah, yeah.

1041
01:07:39.119 --> 01:07:43.260
Well, it's part of the problem is the show never ended up being about anything.

1042
01:07:43.320 --> 01:07:46.139
Because we're done it, she said. let's go.

1043
01:07:46.199 --> 01:07:48.119
This whole from show.

1044
01:07:48.179 --> 01:07:49.920
End program.

1045
01:07:49.920 --> 01:07:50.880
Turn it off.

1046
01:07:50.940 --> 01:07:52.619
Isn't that great?

1047
01:07:52.679 --> 01:07:54.300
I love that computer end program.

1048
01:07:54.360 --> 01:08:01.800
That's like the end of, what's the, uh, ship in a bottle, the end of ship in a bottle where they say computer end program.

1049
01:08:01.860 --> 01:08:02.760
Was it not real?

1050
01:08:02.820 --> 01:08:03.420
None of it.

1051
01:08:03.480 --> 01:08:04.920
They just walked out of a fake room.

1052
01:08:04.980 --> 01:08:09.900
Well, nothing on Star Trek has been real since shipping a bottle.

1053
01:08:09.960 --> 01:08:10.860
It is.

1054
01:08:10.860 --> 01:08:13.500
They never left the thing.

1055
01:08:13.559 --> 01:08:14.579
Oh, please.

1056
01:08:14.639 --> 01:08:16.619
That would be the best West ever.

1057
01:08:16.680 --> 01:08:19.319
Picard leaves his jacket in there.

1058
01:08:19.380 --> 01:08:22.500
Like he literally comes out with a different jacket.

1059
01:08:22.560 --> 01:08:24.720
He's a lovely letter to the franchise.

1060
01:08:24.779 --> 01:08:27.060
Kirk, Picard, and Archer.

1061
01:08:27.659 --> 01:08:28.619
Archer Yeah.

1062
01:08:28.680 --> 01:08:30.239
Or Kate Mulgrew.

1063
01:08:30.300 --> 01:08:33.060
No, no, no, but that's not the enterprise, is it?

1064
01:08:33.119 --> 01:08:34.439
You know, like, that's it.

1065
01:08:34.500 --> 01:08:36.359
It's the end to me.

1066
01:08:36.659 --> 01:08:38.159
I love letters to the franchise.

1067
01:08:38.220 --> 01:08:40.199
Oh, so the Enterprise.

1068
01:08:40.199 --> 01:08:45.239
It's a love letter to Enterprise, the show, I think. pretty clearly.

1069
01:08:45.300 --> 01:08:48.000
It's sort of like a poison pen layer, do you think?

1070
01:08:48.060 --> 01:08:52.500
No, no, I think they've, I think they've...

1071
01:08:52.560 --> 01:08:53.340
Yeah.

1072
01:08:53.399 --> 01:08:58.800
I mean, look, like this is my least favourite Star Trek, I think.

1073
01:08:58.859 --> 01:09:01.739
Well, that's the animated series.

1074
01:09:01.800 --> 01:09:03.539
Oh, that doesn't even count.

1075
01:09:03.960 --> 01:09:05.340
Yeah.

1076
01:09:05.399 --> 01:09:08.100
It's like a pamphlet, isn't it?

1077
01:09:08.220 --> 01:09:11.340
Yeah, it's my least favourite one that's actually making an effort.

1078
01:09:11.460 --> 01:09:13.859
And I'd never kind of watched it much before.

1079
01:09:13.859 --> 01:09:16.319
Untitled Star Trek project came along.

1080
01:09:16.380 --> 01:09:23.640
And sometimes I'm furious at it and sometimes, you know, there are things that it does that I think are really, really misconceived.

1081
01:09:23.699 --> 01:09:28.979
And it's clearly being made by people who don't really give a shit about the politics of Star Trek at all.

1082
01:09:29.039 --> 01:09:34.800
And oh, knackered, creatively knackered.

1083
01:09:34.920 --> 01:09:43.020
And so, you know, like, I think that they had the right to look back on something they created.

1084
01:09:43.079 --> 01:09:54.119
I think that centring it around trip was a great idea because I think I think the doctor is like he's a character part, isn't he?

1085
01:09:54.180 --> 01:09:59.279
Like he's the character that I enjoy the most, but he's scenery in a way, I think.

1086
01:09:59.340 --> 01:10:01.920
He's not as developed a character as Tripp.

1087
01:10:01.979 --> 01:10:13.500
And I think, you know, you've got trip to Poland Archer doing maybe the best recreation of the original 3 from Star Trek, the original series.

1088
01:10:13.560 --> 01:10:15.479
Ale imitation.

1089
01:10:15.539 --> 01:10:20.819
Oh, nowhere near as good, but definitely that's the that's the best attempt at it.

1090
01:10:20.880 --> 01:10:22.020
You know, the...

1091
01:10:22.020 --> 01:10:24.720
Now we're exploring TOS, you know, and seeing it.

1092
01:10:25.260 --> 01:10:28.020
Vital and alive on the screen.

1093
01:10:28.140 --> 01:10:32.460
Yeah, yeah, people whisper it in gray rooms is, yeah, yeah.

1094
01:10:32.520 --> 01:10:35.579
But, you know, like Conor Trinier is great.

1095
01:10:35.640 --> 01:10:37.020
John Blaylock is great.

1096
01:10:37.079 --> 01:10:41.819
You know, Bacula's fine on his day, hampered by a kind of horrible character.

1097
01:10:41.880 --> 01:10:45.239
But like it wasn't all a complete waste of time.

1098
01:10:45.300 --> 01:11:08.939
It was still Star Trek, and I liked the fact that even though it had failed, I think what they're doing here isn't saying we need to rush Jonathan and Marina over here stat before the patient sort of haemorrhages to death, I think they bring them back as a way of paying a tribute to the show and what the show has been.

1099
01:11:09.000 --> 01:11:14.039
And to try and make the show something a little bit more momentous than it actually was.

1100
01:11:14.159 --> 01:11:26.340
Okay, like it's a 4 script, being endured by a crew that's just had enough of this nonsense now, that just acting their way through it.

1101
01:11:26.399 --> 01:11:28.859
I don't think on any level.

1102
01:11:28.920 --> 01:11:38.399
I said to you in a message, I don't think it even appears above average at any point, you know, it would be barely acceptable as in the midseason episode.

1103
01:11:38.460 --> 01:11:42.060
It's not a triumphant way to see out this show.

1104
01:11:42.119 --> 01:11:45.000
And I just had no investment in it.

1105
01:11:45.119 --> 01:11:46.199
That's my biggest problem.

1106
01:11:46.260 --> 01:11:48.960
My biggest into Star Trek, is the characters.

1107
01:11:49.020 --> 01:11:52.560
And, you know, even on TNG where they're paper thin.

1108
01:11:52.619 --> 01:12:00.060
I can get behind them because the performances are so good and their chemistry is so great and they still make me feel things even when the writing isn't there.

1109
01:12:00.119 --> 01:12:03.060
I just felt nothing watching this at all.

1110
01:12:03.180 --> 01:12:05.819
And I just wanted it to be over with.

1111
01:12:05.880 --> 01:12:11.579
And I guess that's a true fitting tribute for me at enterprise. just wanted it to be over with.

1112
01:12:11.640 --> 01:12:13.560
Yeah, I know I've been mean.

1113
01:12:13.619 --> 01:12:17.640
I know I've been mean, but I've been honest as well, because I feel like we have to on this thing.

1114
01:12:17.640 --> 01:12:21.180
And it's not like, maybe I went into this expecting to not like it.

1115
01:12:21.239 --> 01:12:23.819
I don't think I expected to be as bored as I was.

1116
01:12:24.359 --> 01:12:35.579
So for me, the the 2 part finale that precedes this, um, is good and it deals with some heart to it and it.

1117
01:12:35.640 --> 01:12:37.260
It had something to say, I think.

1118
01:12:37.319 --> 01:12:50.819
Yeah, it deals with some of the themes that the show sort of is working towards, even though it's the sort of stuff that is kind of, you know, well trodden ground in Deep Space 9 by this point.

1119
01:12:51.060 --> 01:13:00.600
But it was pretty limited in its ambitions and it was a story whose resolution was, we're not ready for the Federation yet.

1120
01:13:00.720 --> 01:13:04.560
So it ends with a, with a note of failure.

1121
01:13:04.680 --> 01:13:08.579
One day we'll be able to do this, but we're not ready for it yet.

1122
01:13:08.640 --> 01:13:21.960
And so here, what they do is they go for something more ambitious and something more important to the history of the franchise, and they swing and miss, but I think the attempt was worth making.

1123
01:13:29.039 --> 01:13:36.060
Alright, it's the end of the episode, and it is time for us to work out where we are going next.

1124
01:13:36.119 --> 01:13:39.899
I chose Enterprise for my sins.

1125
01:13:39.960 --> 01:13:41.640
And so now it's your turn.

1126
01:13:41.699 --> 01:13:43.979
So, what are we going to be watching?

1127
01:13:44.039 --> 01:13:47.399
Your sins are racking up, you know, with these choices?

1128
01:13:48.779 --> 01:14:04.619
Well, since, you know, she was a little neglected in the love lesson to the franchise that we just watched, I would like us to watch an exciting adventure featuring Captain Catherine Janeway from Star Trek Voyager.

1129
01:14:04.680 --> 01:14:06.239
Okay, excellent.

1130
01:14:06.300 --> 01:14:07.319
That sounds like a great choice.

1131
01:14:07.380 --> 01:14:08.760
I'm excited by the prospect of that.

1132
01:14:08.819 --> 01:14:09.539
Oh, dear.

1133
01:14:09.600 --> 01:14:10.859
Straight away. push the button.

1134
01:14:10.920 --> 01:14:12.420
That's what we've done, state of flux.

1135
01:14:12.479 --> 01:14:13.920
Okay, in mind.

1136
01:14:13.979 --> 01:14:15.359
Okay.

1137
01:14:15.420 --> 01:14:16.619
That's a good one. yeah.

1138
01:14:16.680 --> 01:14:19.020
Okay, scientific method.

1139
01:14:19.079 --> 01:14:22.020
Series four, episode seven.

1140
01:14:22.199 --> 01:14:26.819
Oh, that's the one where they, they all get covered in spots and stuff.

1141
01:14:26.880 --> 01:14:27.539
It's very boring.

1142
01:14:27.600 --> 01:14:35.039
It's like a science versus religion one where Janeway kind of has to confront something.

1143
01:14:35.100 --> 01:14:38.520
Is it alien, like some kind of weird alien thing?

1144
01:14:38.640 --> 01:14:39.659
It's so forgettable.

1145
01:14:39.720 --> 01:14:43.260
I've completely forgotten, but I just remember Chakotay has spots in it at one point.

1146
01:14:43.319 --> 01:14:44.159
Okay.

1147
01:14:44.220 --> 01:14:45.840
Okay, should we go somewhere else?

1148
01:14:45.899 --> 01:14:46.439
should do it.

1149
01:14:46.500 --> 01:14:47.579
No, let's do something else.

1150
01:14:47.640 --> 01:14:48.119
Okay.

1151
01:14:48.180 --> 01:14:53.159
Your random Star Trek Voyage episode is season 6 or we do go there quite a bit.

1152
01:14:53.220 --> 01:14:56.520
Episode 18, Ashes to Ashes.

1153
01:14:56.699 --> 01:14:57.840
Oh, that's Harry Kim episode.

1154
01:14:57.899 --> 01:15:00.539
Oh, we never get to do a Harry King episode.

1155
01:15:00.600 --> 01:15:01.439
We ruled one out last time.

1156
01:15:01.500 --> 01:15:02.640
No, this is the one.

1157
01:15:02.699 --> 01:15:06.659
This is the one. because I know how much you love it.

1158
01:15:07.079 --> 01:15:08.760
Oh my god.

1159
01:15:08.819 --> 01:15:12.180
Season five, episode 18.

1160
01:15:12.420 --> 01:15:14.579
Course oblivion.

1161
01:15:14.640 --> 01:15:16.619
Oh, my God.

1162
01:15:17.100 --> 01:15:18.600
Wow.

1163
01:15:18.720 --> 01:15:42.899
People say, people say that like, there have been votes where that enterprise episode we watched came last out of the entire franchise. from angry, angry nerds who weren't even thinking about Course Oblivion, which is one of the most unpleasant and ridiculous hours of TV in the shows history.

1164
01:15:42.960 --> 01:15:47.640
Weirdly, I have heard because, you know, there was a time when I saw out reviews.

1165
01:15:47.699 --> 01:15:58.859
I have heard reviews in both directions of this episode of some people saying it's sort of bold, you know, and ambitious, and other people just saying it's the most dismal television experience you could possibly have.

1166
01:15:58.920 --> 01:16:00.300
So bad.

1167
01:16:00.359 --> 01:16:01.619
It's so bad.

1168
01:16:01.680 --> 01:16:02.699
Oh, let's do it.

1169
01:16:02.760 --> 01:16:03.060
Come on.

1170
01:16:03.119 --> 01:16:05.460
It'd be nice, you know.

1171
01:16:05.460 --> 01:16:10.380
You started with low expectations going into these are the voyages, and you actually rather enjoyed it.

1172
01:16:10.439 --> 01:16:11.399
Yeah.

1173
01:16:11.640 --> 01:16:13.680
That's not going to happen this week.

1174
01:16:14.100 --> 01:16:16.619
How long has it been since you lost all this?

1175
01:16:16.739 --> 01:16:32.100
It has been a long time, but there's something massively misconceived about the entire thing and just the spectacle of Janeway looking tragic with like a pound of latex kind of hand.

1176
01:16:32.159 --> 01:16:34.560
They also start melting at her face.

1177
01:16:34.619 --> 01:16:35.939
It's quicksilver, isn't it?

1178
01:16:36.000 --> 01:16:37.140
They're made out of this sort of quicksample.

1179
01:16:37.199 --> 01:16:41.640
So they've all got this weird sort of silver paint dripping off their faces and stuff.

1180
01:16:41.699 --> 01:16:43.680
Do you not want to do that then?

1181
01:16:43.800 --> 01:16:45.600
Are you not in the mood for course oblivion?

1182
01:16:45.659 --> 01:16:46.739
No, no, let's do it.

1183
01:16:46.800 --> 01:16:47.340
Let's do it.

1184
01:16:47.399 --> 01:16:49.920
I've got to say nice things about a terrible episode.

1185
01:16:49.920 --> 01:16:52.140
Now, let me say terrible things about a terrible episode.

1186
01:16:52.199 --> 01:16:53.279
Give that a go.

1187
01:16:53.579 --> 01:17:01.619
And I, I think when I reviewed this on my website, Doggo reviews, I did give this one out of 10.

1188
01:17:01.859 --> 01:17:06.720
So I'm sort of starting in a low place, but I'm prepared to be impressed.

1189
01:17:06.779 --> 01:17:09.659
I'm pretty sure Jama slams it as well.

1190
01:17:09.720 --> 01:17:12.420
So, uh, this might be an agreement.

1191
01:17:12.479 --> 01:17:14.220
We can all agree on, yeah.

1192
01:17:14.279 --> 01:17:17.579
The stars have aligned and a supernova's hit.

1193
01:17:17.640 --> 01:17:18.779
Oh my god.

1194
01:17:18.840 --> 01:17:19.800
Course oblivion.

1195
01:17:19.859 --> 01:17:21.060
Set course.

1196
01:17:21.119 --> 01:17:22.920
For oblivion.

1197
01:17:31.979 --> 01:17:42.239
You've been listening to untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford and Nathan Bottomley, where online at Untitled Star Trek Project.com, where you can find subscription links and links to our social media accounts.

1198
01:17:42.300 --> 01:17:47.640
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceron, and the theme was composed by Cameron Lamb.

1199
01:17:47.699 --> 01:17:53.100
This episode was recorded on the 26th of March 2024 and released on the 12th of April.

1200
01:17:53.340 --> 01:17:57.600
We'll see you next time for Star Trek Voyager, course oblivion.

1201
01:18:15.659 --> 01:18:18.359
The stars have aligned, and the supernova's hit.

1202
01:18:18.420 --> 01:18:19.739
Oh, my God.

1203
01:18:19.800 --> 01:18:21.000
Course oblivion.

1204
01:18:21.060 --> 01:18:22.260
Set course.

1205
01:18:22.319 --> 01:18:24.239
For oblivion.

1206
01:18:24.300 --> 01:18:24.960
No, wait.

1207
01:18:25.020 --> 01:18:25.800
I'll start that again.

1208
01:18:26.640 --> 01:18:29.819
Set course, of course oblivion.

1209
01:18:29.880 --> 01:18:31.260
I don't even know if that works.

1210
01:18:31.380 --> 01:18:32.100
Does it?

1211
01:18:32.100 --> 01:18:35.880
Oh God.

1212
01:18:35.939 --> 01:18:38.340
Well, that was...

1213
01:18:38.399 --> 01:18:40.319
All of that stays in.

1214
01:18:40.380 --> 01:18:43.979
Are you attempting to do it and then fucking it up and then attempting to do it again?

1215
01:18:44.039 --> 01:18:46.680
That's just a podcasting water is all about.

1216
01:18:46.800 --> 01:18:48.659
That's kind of funny though.

1217
01:18:49.140 --> 01:18:51.659
The funniest thing is the people listen.

1218
01:18:53.039 --> 01:18:56.100
That episode, like, fuck.

1219
01:18:56.159 --> 01:19:03.600
Like, like, the twist is that it's not the real crew, and then the real crew fly past at the end.

1220
01:19:03.659 --> 01:19:06.119
I don't even want to see what it is.

1221
01:19:06.180 --> 01:19:07.920
No, they don't even know what it is.

1222
01:19:07.979 --> 01:19:08.819
So it's nothing.

1223
01:19:08.939 --> 01:19:11.100
Nothing happens to the crew.

1224
01:19:11.100 --> 01:19:14.100
They sacrifice themselves for the other crew or is it just...

1225
01:19:14.100 --> 01:19:16.199
No, they just melt and die.

1226
01:19:16.260 --> 01:19:18.060
It's like so ridiculous.

1227
01:19:18.119 --> 01:19:21.840
And with such a dramatic tile, yeah. should be really exciting.

1228
01:19:21.899 --> 01:19:23.520
No, actually it's a pretty great title.

1229
01:19:23.579 --> 01:19:26.699
I love a title with a colon in it.

1230
01:19:26.760 --> 01:19:29.399
Like a like a assignment earth.

1231
01:19:29.460 --> 01:19:29.880
Yeah.

1232
01:19:29.939 --> 01:19:32.520
Yeah, of course, Oblivion was a TOS episode.

1233
01:19:32.640 --> 01:19:33.659
It would be the best thing ever.

1234
01:19:33.720 --> 01:19:36.420
No, it's the worst thing ever.

1235
01:19:36.479 --> 01:19:37.920
Yeah, yeah, it would be terrible.

1236
01:19:37.979 --> 01:19:40.859
It's just like not even a show.

1237
01:19:40.920 --> 01:19:42.840
I just remember it's just so flat.

1238
01:19:42.899 --> 01:19:45.899
Like, no, well, not unlike what we just watched.

1239
01:19:45.960 --> 01:19:50.579
It's just so like, It's nothing, but it's not even the characters.

1240
01:19:50.640 --> 01:19:56.640
Like, and like, you know, like it's all our actors and stuff, but no one learns anything, nothing happens.

1241
01:19:56.699 --> 01:19:58.739
And then it's demon, isn't it?

1242
01:19:58.800 --> 01:20:00.300
Like then there's a seat.

1243
01:20:00.420 --> 01:20:01.380
No, demons four.

1244
01:20:01.439 --> 01:20:02.340
This is five.

1245
01:20:02.399 --> 01:20:03.479
This is the end of five.

1246
01:20:03.539 --> 01:20:16.920
Oh, this is the end of the trilogy of terror because you have, um, uh, the fight, and the Harry King won, the disease, and then course oblivion all back to back.

1247
01:20:16.979 --> 01:20:19.380
But then, what's the demon then?

1248
01:20:19.380 --> 01:20:21.300
Demas, the 1st one of this.

1249
01:20:21.359 --> 01:20:24.720
Oh, wait, course oblivion is a sequel to Demon.

1250
01:20:24.779 --> 01:20:25.380
Yeah.

1251
01:20:25.680 --> 01:20:27.539
Yeah, there we go.

1252
01:20:27.600 --> 01:20:28.680
Yeah.

1253
01:20:28.739 --> 01:20:29.279
Yeah.

1254
01:20:29.399 --> 01:20:31.020
So that's right.

1255
01:20:31.079 --> 01:20:33.239
They allow themselves to be copied at the end of demon.

1256
01:20:33.720 --> 01:20:39.239
And the twin says that it's a copy from Demon, which was a pretty shitty episode you watched last year.

1257
01:20:39.300 --> 01:20:51.300
It's such a shame that they do have free on the bounce because in 5 you can and then you get like relativity, which is a really fun 7 time travel episode. 1159, which showed that allows Mulberry to do different things.

1258
01:20:52.859 --> 01:20:56.760
I actually got equinox at the end of the season, which we quite liked.

1259
01:20:56.819 --> 01:21:01.500
Yeah, yeah, so it's a bit of a shame, really, that...

1260
01:21:01.560 --> 01:21:10.979
As you head towards the end of the season, they just all start and it, there's one scene where they're all in the, they're all in the observation lounge, you know, where they have the meetings.

1261
01:21:11.039 --> 01:21:12.180
Yeah, yeah.

1262
01:21:12.180 --> 01:21:16.319
And Janeways, like, literally in the sort of last 3rd of the season's slump.

1263
01:21:16.380 --> 01:21:19.920
Mulgrew is, and she's just sort of sitting there covered in still the paint gang.

1264
01:21:20.039 --> 01:21:23.220
Well, we make it out of here, Mr. Chicago.

1265
01:21:23.279 --> 01:21:28.380
Overwhelmingly, that was my sense of why the episode was shit.

1266
01:21:28.439 --> 01:21:39.300
It was just looking at poor Kate with that fucking makeup on, trying to deliver a line, just me dying of embarrassment on her bar.

1267
01:21:40.619 --> 01:21:44.220
How many seasons of this that we have to go.

1268
01:21:44.340 --> 01:21:45.960
That's right.

1269
01:21:46.020 --> 01:21:48.180
Fucking hell dreadful.

1270
01:21:48.239 --> 01:21:54.899
Oh, but, you know, it would be nice to be truly mean about, because we're like, we sort of laughed our way through skin of evil.

1271
01:21:54.960 --> 01:21:58.319
And you know, you said nice things about today's episode.

1272
01:21:58.380 --> 01:22:02.579
So it would be nice to just be truly savage for one week. that's right.

1273
01:22:02.640 --> 01:22:05.819
Unless one of us, you know, has lost any with it.

1274
01:22:06.119 --> 01:22:07.979
Seems unlikely.

1275
01:22:08.100 --> 01:22:09.600
All right.

1276
01:22:09.659 --> 01:22:10.079
Okay.

1277
01:22:10.140 --> 01:22:11.579
I'm gonna I'll go.

1278
01:22:11.640 --> 01:22:12.300
What do you think?

1279
01:22:13.260 --> 01:22:15.420
It was still fun though.

1280
01:22:15.479 --> 01:22:17.880
You know, I was horrible, bro, that whole thing.

1281
01:22:17.939 --> 01:22:18.659
Yeah, yeah.

1282
01:22:18.720 --> 01:22:23.640
But I'm glad that I got to say things because it's just, it just like...

1283
01:22:23.640 --> 01:22:25.439
It's nice to have 2 opinions as well.

1284
01:22:25.560 --> 01:22:26.880
I think so too.

1285
01:22:26.939 --> 01:22:32.460
But I also think that there's just a fair bit of sort of shitty entitlement behind some of the backlash.

1286
01:22:32.520 --> 01:22:39.180
You know, it's like, this is enterprise and why can't we be, you know, like, like, and it was just like, no, no, look what you got.

1287
01:22:39.239 --> 01:22:40.800
Like look what they're trying to do for you.

1288
01:22:40.859 --> 01:22:49.859
You know, this show failed and we're trying to make it give it a successful final mission. try to do for you in the last gulp.

1289
01:22:49.920 --> 01:22:51.359
Yeah, yeah.

1290
01:22:51.420 --> 01:22:55.199
Like we couldn't be doing it all along, Babs, but we didn't, you know.

1291
01:22:55.619 --> 01:22:57.899
Yeah, they were learning lessons.

1292
01:22:57.960 --> 01:22:58.800
It's so annoying.

1293
01:22:59.460 --> 01:23:01.140
Yeah, no.

1294
01:23:01.199 --> 01:23:08.100
They deliberately threw out all the lessons they'd learned because they thought that was putting people off, you know.

1295
01:23:08.159 --> 01:23:09.479
Shame, shame, shame.

1296
01:23:09.539 --> 01:23:10.079
Shame.

1297
01:23:10.079 --> 01:23:10.500
Shame.

1298
01:23:10.560 --> 01:23:12.060
The potential was there, I think.

1299
01:23:12.119 --> 01:23:14.159
Yeah, yeah.

1300
01:23:14.279 --> 01:23:19.380
Yes, give it to Manny earlier before they do series 3 and ruin it.

1301
01:23:19.439 --> 01:23:23.100
So when Ira Bear came into DS9, didn't it, you know?

1302
01:23:23.159 --> 01:23:25.560
and brought wrong Moore along with him as well.

1303
01:23:25.619 --> 01:23:26.760
And he's like, right, come on.

1304
01:23:26.819 --> 01:23:28.439
Beef this show up a bit now.

1305
01:23:28.500 --> 01:23:31.439
Yeah, yeah, let's have some fun or in Bajor episodes.

1306
01:23:31.500 --> 01:23:34.439
Come on, bring in a star, put on some torpedoes.

1307
01:23:34.500 --> 01:23:35.100
Let's go.

1308
01:23:35.760 --> 01:23:37.319
Awesome.

1309
01:23:37.800 --> 01:23:39.180
Okay.

1310
01:23:39.239 --> 01:23:39.659
Okay.

1311
01:23:39.720 --> 01:23:40.680
I'm going to go to bed.