Okay, do it.
Do it now.
Oh my god, it's a DS9 episode.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
I'm not even going to say it.
I can show you It's profit and loss from series 2.
Oh my god, I have no idea what that is.
It's not profit and lace, is it?
It's the really dreadful Casablanca ripoff, featuring Garak and
Quark.
Okay, are we going to want to do that?
Because one of the rules that I've only just made up this moment?
Is that we can just re-roll over and over again until we get
embarrassed by the whole process and have to stop?
Okay.
I'm going to press that.
Oh, I don't even know what that is.
Oh no, it's a Neelix episode from Voyager.
Okay, show me, show me, show me.
Mortal Coil from Series 4.
Oh my god, why do I even have a Star Trek podcast?
I have no idea what that is.
Is it about him dying?
Does he have a terminal illness?
He dies.
And then obviously, you know, Chakosa goes on a spirit quest with
him and oh, it's all incredibly racist and terrible.
Yep, let's do that.
Oh my, okay, no, this is the one.
This is right.
I will not work any more pressing of the button.
Okay.
Yes, today's Enterprise.
Oh my goodness.
That's superb.
What a coincidence that we got that on our 1st outing and it had
nothing to do with repeatedly doing it until we actually got
something we wanted.
Let's do that.
Hey, Joe. Hi.
So, uh, yesterday's Enterprise. you excited?
I am desperately excited.
I have watched it twice in the last week and both times.
I think I enjoyed it, even more the 2nd time.
I think this is a phenomenal episode of Star Trek.
Yeah, I think so too.
I think we were incredibly lucky to get it on our 1st roll. 1st
roll.
So let's just tell the listener a little bit about the episode.
Undoubtedly everyone knows this.
This is why we're doing this one.
But it is series 3 of Star Trek, The Next Generation, where Star
Trek, The Next Generation finally kind of gets its act together
and has some idea of what it's doing.
And it's some way into that.
So it's episode 15.
Episode 15.
Um, and I'm going to very quickly stay, I think the reason why
NextGen hit its groove in Series 3 was the introduction of Michael
Pillar to the show.
Now, this episode had 4 writers, credited, and one writer
uncredited, and that writer who wrote the final polish of this
script was Michael Piller.
Oh, okay.
He is an unsung hero in the Star Trek universe.
I think I think Berman gets a lot of talk, bragger, from Moore, Ira
Bear.
Michael Piller basically is the guy that came in to Next
Generation and sorted his shit out.
Do you know what I think it is?
I don't think it's a pillar at all.
I think it's at the main cast stop wearing spandex uniforms.
Oh, goodness sucks.
They will stop wearing...
They stop wearing those fabulous skirts to the wall.
They're called scant, I happen to know.
So show off lots of lovely masculine leg.
That's all I know.
So this, so this is written by, as we just learned, like half of
the population of Southern California, and it's directed by David
Carson, who he did generations, I want to say, and a whole bunch
of...
Well, he didn't do many.
No, he didn't do many.
He did.
I think his his biggies are yesterday's Enterprise, generations, as
you say, and MSA rich for DS9.
Oh, okay.
Um, which today, I think, is still the most expensive episode of
Star Trek ever made.
This is, this is, uh, has a bigger budget than like a normal Star
Trek episode, though, I think.
I don't know though.
You know, I feel like this is just lit better and they and they've
really like, um, put some focus on the look of this episode.
I have no facts to back that up whatsoever.
The fact that I can tell you, uh, which is quite interesting is
that because, um, I don't think Guidin was initially supposed to
be in this episode, um, Tasha Yar was always supposed to be in
this.
Yeah.
And then they found a way to write Guy and Inn, and they needed
both Whoopi Goldberg in high demand, and Denise Crosby in high
demand to be available. to shoot this episode and they were
available next week.
And the script was not written yet.
Right, right, right.
Right.
I think they usually had a couple of weeks to bash out a script.
They essentially had like the weekend.
There's 5 of them sort of working on the teleplay.
Yeah, and none of them were happy with it, by all accounts.
None of them will happen with it.
Like, and on paper, this is a terrific script.
I mean, I'm surprised.
But apparently they all went into this with a sense of dread that
this really wasn't going to work out.
And look what happened.
Yeah, it's pretty pretty spectacular.
All right, what do you think?
Are we ready to go?
I'm ready to go if you are?
Okay, all right, okay.
Let me just get a thing happening here.
Okay.
So counting down.
Well, you do.
You do it so well.
Okay.
Five, four, three, two, one.
And we're off.
Let's go.
So this scene with Wharf, is it a sort of contractual obligation?
He has to be in every episode?
Well, I mean, and Troy is in a scene in a 2nd as well.
Very, very briefly.
Yeah, I think that all the regulars that are credited in the title
sequence have to show up at some point. story.
I actually think though there's a good reason for him to be here.
And it is that this is the Klingons.
He's the only Klingon that we actually see in this episode.
We hear one in voiceover.
And he's talking about being a Klingon, you know, like what a
Klingon is like.
And it does a few other things as well.
Like it reminds us of the Klingons on the Federation. you know
have good relationships.
You know, there's a Klingon on board the Enterprise.
He's sitting there drinking prune juice.
Oh, they can be much more relaxed.
But that is terrific because that is a running joke that spreads
right through TNG and DS9.
And lower down.
Oh, is it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, it starts here.
And I do quite like the conversation about...
Yeah.
Okay, well, I mean, there is, there is a, a very kinky thread that
runs through Star Trek, isn't it?
Very, very rotten berry style kink that runs through next
generation.
I think they kind of, it gets a bit sexless when Roddenbury, uh
departs the show and them and kind of takes creative control.
Oh, swirly thing alert.
Oh, something is wrong.
But it gets Gynan to be kind of cool as well because she's really
concerned throughout the episode, but here she's actually making
fun of Warf and Warf is kind of coping with it and all of that
sort of thing.
So it introduces her character really well as well, I think.
Oh, there she is, and on the bridge in her blue dress.
Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, Troy herself.
Less.
Is this her worst outfit?
No, the camel toe outfit is worse, isn't it?
It's probably it's probably her worst outing.
She doesn't even get a line.
No.
Not a line at all?
Doesn't she get to say that she...
She can't say anything from the soirly thing or...?
Probably.
I don't think she does.
So watch this in a second.
Watch the very simple, very economic way.
They make the suggestion that we've slipped into an alternative
universe.
So Picard turns his head, looks at Wolf.
He turns around, he covers Wolf up.
He turns around again in a 2nd and Tasha yards there.
It's so beautifully done.
That is a that is a masterful piece of direction, I think.
And the lighting.
Look at the panels.
The panels are all sort of orange and yellow and stuff.
Like, normally they're these sort of muted Star Trek beige, right?
And, and you know, it's a cruise ship, essentially.
Everything is, you know, sort of sweet and lovely and
comfortable.
And then suddenly it's like lit in a really interesting way.
And Carson will do this again when he gets control of it in
generations.
Like he'll completely change the sort of very flat.
Well, remember, as well, he sets the tone for DS9 by doing the
pilot.
That's very dark and very atmospheric for out.
Oh, here comes.
I thought I'd say, what's that ship called?
but of course it's going to be expressed.
And yeah.
The 2nd you take the lights down.
Yeah.
That dreary set that they film on.
Just, it looks amazing.
Yeah, it looks terrific.
And that's essentially like the template of Voyager later, isn't
it?
Voyager's very underlit.
The bridge area and enterprise as well, I think.
Oh, it's Tashi Yard.
Now, okay, I need to set my store immediately retachiat and say
that I think she's a fairly abysmal character in season one.
Okay?
Well, everyone is an obysmal character in series one, though.
Everyone is shockingly terrible.
I hope we get one early, you know?
But this definitely goes to show that had she stuck around, like
everybody else, they would have done really interesting things
about character.
Yeah, yeah.
New hair.
What do you think of these titles?
I think they look very stylish in HD.
It helps a lot.
I love the model work.
I'm sorry, I know Trek went CGI and we're going to talk a lot
about production differences because we're going to hop around all
of Star Trek.
This is my favourite period because I love the model work.
There's just something. tangible about physical effect that I
don't get with CGI.
I um, there's apparently a show called Babylon 5, which I've never
watched or even heard of.
It was sort of being made at sort of roughly the same time and it
used really, really sort of shitty cartoonish CGI for its sort of
space sequences.
You can't, I mean, I won't criticise Babylon 5 for that because it
um, you know, it pioneered CGI and we got, we got where we are now
because it, it, but you just go back now and it looks like a
dreadful cartoon.
In comparison, the special effects in this, which are simple
because you can't do as much because they are practical.
But it just looks more robust.
It looks real.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We will see some very, very stately starship battles in this
episode, though, where no one moves around very much.
Well, then you compare that since like last day, DS night or now
with Discovery.
You know, it's terrific.
That is a beautiful model, though, the Enterprise, see, look at
that.
That's a lovely shot.
And, you know, going lovingly across the model and then heading
towards the other model, it is really pretty great.
They touched up the effects for these or is it still the
originals?
There is an HD version of this where they do do some things, but I
don't know that we're watching that on Netflix.
But yeah, they did, they did do an HD version.
I've got the sort of crappy downloaded to my iPad version at the
moment, so it's compressed to buggery.
It's impossible to tell.
Can I make a confession very quickly?
So this is the 1st appearance of Wesley Crusher in that red
Starfleet uniform.
It normally wears that appalling gray...
Yeah, yeah, yeah. tunic, doesn't it?
Basically, Wesley in that red uniform was my sexual awakening.
So I fancied him so much when I was a teen.
And I used to take pictures of him in the red uniform with his
hair kind of gel like that to the barbers and say, can you do my
hair like that?
That unfortunately is a true story. that's adorable Oh my
goodness.
And don't you think so?
And so he's clearly had a field promotion, like all of this stuff
is said without it being said.
So he's there because he's got a feel promotion right because
we're at war and so we need our cadets to just be in the field.
And that's, you know, that's clearly what's happening.
Wharf isn't on board anymore because we're at war with the
Klingons.
But what I think is super interesting about the set is if we get a
if we get a wide shot of it, like that set is really stupid, isn't
it?
Like it's clearly designed for the cameras to get around easily.
It's a 4th wall camera, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And whenever you see a high shot of it or something like that, it
just looks ridiculous, there's so much sort of space and stuff.
But they've really redressed it, like there's all these extra
panels and stuff in there and Carson will put them back in for
generations.
There's so many extras.
So many.
So many people.
Well, in the corridors.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It reminds me of original trek.
Do you remember original Trek?
just people everywhere.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think there's a really good reason for that too.
Like later on in the dialogue, we'll hear that it can carry 6000
troops.
But the normal compliment for the end surprises were a bit over a
thousand.
Now have a look at this shot, right?
There's stairs now leading up to where the captain's chair is.
And the captain's chair has nothing next to it.
And so this is like original track and like subsequent tracks
really, where the captain is, because it's a much, much more
hierarchical and much, much less collaborative environment.
You know, they're at war.
So you don't have the councillor next to you.
Well, no.
What the stairs do, though, is suggest like a hub activity.
There's people going up and down all the time.
There's movement all the time.
So it feels like it feels like a bit more urgent than everyone
just sitting around staring at the screen.
But it makes his, it makes his chair a bit more like a throne, you
know, because he is the commander.
Riker doesn't sit next to him.
You know, Riker is off to the back. who presumably he's looking at
the back of Picard's head the whole time. attempting to avoid the
exploding rocks.
Oh my god, more of the exploding rocks later.
There's so many of them.
And so when Star Trek came back, right?
It deliberately did this sort of post-cold war thing where we had
had made peace with the Klingons and we had good relationships
with them.
We had exchanges, you know, in series two.
We've got a Klingon on the bridge, all of that.
And what they decided to do was to bring it back with this sort of
very 90s post-Cold War sensibility.
You know, we're not at war.
But it's all very, very tedious diplomacy. and this terrible kind
of colonial feel that they're going around civilising the
universe.
There are episodes where they literally go to do a diplomatic
mission and people don't do what they want and they're like, well
we're just going to lead you to it and you're not going to do it
our way.
It's appalling.
It's it's...
Star Trek's all a bit like that.
I think it's moved away from it a little bit, but like that is a
thing.
And obviously Deep Space Night interrogates that and, you know
brings that viewpoint in.
Oh, look, he's Lieutenant Castillo.
They, um, so there's a big trek cliche here and that is beaming
onto the ship that's all damaged and smoky and in ruins and
there's bodies everywhere and, you know, every Star Trek show will
do this.
It's done particularly well here.
I think I think that, you know, it looks like they've been through
hell.
Yeah, well, so everyone's dead on the bridge, except for Rachel
and Lieutenant Castillo.
Give them time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so could I say, there's 3 creative 4s um, that were behind
latter-day DS9 right in this.
You've got Ira Bear, Hans Beimla and Ron Moore.
Yeah, they had 3 biggies.
Um, This feels very season 6 DS9 to me, i.e. the Federation is at
war.
It's very desperate.
It's very bleak and Picard says at one point, you know, we're on
the verge of losing this war.
And Cisco says that exact line in season six.
It's really interesting that for the next generation.
This has to be an alternative universe.
Whereas come DS 9.
This has become reality.
Well, I think that that's why, um, I think that's why Star Trek
starts to go back and do prequels, because if you've got this sort
of situation where, um, you know, we're also evolved and stuff
like that, that we don't really do war anymore, we never strike
first, we're purely diplomatic, we just cruise around from place
to place going to conferences and shit.
So enterprise goes back.
And Discovery is set in this situation as well.
They're at war with the Kleons.
War breaks out in episode one of Discovery.
But they've had to do some pretty big loopholes in discovery
haven't they?
Like, they tied up that wall pretty damn quickly.
And then in series 2, they skipped forward into the future so they
could actually do something that has an impact, you know?
Yeah, well, we'll talk more about that because I'm a huge fan of
series one of discovery and it's massively overrated and all the
people who don't like it are wrong.
Wrong, eh?
Oh yeah.
And so we will get on to that.
But again, you know, discovery is exciting because not only are we
at war, but we're also worried about what we're becoming in that
context, and I think Deep Space 9 does that as well.
Whereas he...
But it's still doing what this is doing, which is examining the
human condition, but it's doing it within a, like a situation of
conflict, which next generation isn't really doing at all.
No, so in a way, this is it escaping its sort of premise a little
bit to do something a bit more exciting, I think.
Um, you know.
I mean, this is this is head and shoulders above a lot of next
generation, for that very reason.
And this has punch, you know?
I just can't get over the number of background, just the number of
people walking up and down the sheep.
It's so great.
It is.
Can we can we take a look?
Sorry to interrupt you. a brief moment to talk about Captain
Garrett, right?
Because this is what, 3 seasons into the next generation now or
2.5 seasons in, the last episode of TOS featured a agonisingly
terribly characterised female character that wanted to be a
Starfleet captain, wasn't allowed, wasn't allowed.
And you know, and look how far we've come here.
Like she's a very strong female character.
Um, you know, she makes some tough choices in this.
She agrees to head back into, you know, essentially commit
suicide.
She's a terrific character.
Like we've come a long way, I think.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, turnabout intruder, that episode you mentioned is, yeah
was the only original Star Trek episode to be broadcast during my
lifetime for the 1st time.
Really?
Yeah, okay.
Yeah.
Sorry, it's really dreadful.
No, shockingly bad.
It does have Shatner camping it up, pretending to be a lady.
It's really something.
I think...
Also, I do want to point out that Dr. Bev, who I that's what I
call her, Beverly Crusher, quite a lot.
Dr. Bev is just as dreary in this universe as she is in ask.
I know you like it.
I know you like her.
She was shockingly terrible in that seat.
Like kind of kind of, you know, um, just ostentatiously bad, I
think. where she says, please try and rest or whatever and then
walked away.
Like, you know, it's fairly thankless, but gee whiz.
Say it again.
Gates McFadden is a dancer.
She is not an actress.
And we will return to this every time we skip back to next
generation.
I think that she does a great job directing Genesis in series 7
and I think also, which is a fabulous episode.
And I also think that she does occasionally show, she's charming.
You know, she is just terrifically charming, but she's not given
any chance to do it in this episode.
You know what the trade-off is here.
Like I'm talking about strong female characters, but our 2 female
regulars.
Ben gets one scene and Troy gets nothing at all because why do we
need a counsellor during war?
But the trade-off is, obviously we get Tash Yar, who's superbly
characterised here, Guyon, and it's probably her best story, and
Captain Garrett, and I'm thinking to myself, well, can't these
people be in it more?
Because they're much better than Troy and Dr. Bev.
Yeah, it's a bit of a shame, isn't it?
Because the, you know, the, the 2 main female regulars who are
left after Tasha dies have really traditional kind of caring roles
you know, like counsellor and doctor.
I mean, you know, like they're also traditionally male roles as
well.
But they're sort of caring roles.
And part of the fun thing about Tasha was that she got to be
physically violent with people.
They start bringing in semi-regulars, don't they?
Semi-regular female characters.
You get Keiko, but she's basically the mother and wife.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Then you get in some row and she's a bit different.
Yeah.
Yeah, they do kind of get round it, I guess.
And you've got Alyssa, Alyssa, what's her face, the other doctor?
Exactly.
Aldous.
Oh, she's lovely.
She gets engaged. very cute.
So the romance between Ya and Castillo?
Is that his name?
This was what Ron Moore wrote in this episode.
I think it's so good.
It's so incredibly good. quickly developed, isn't it?
Yeah, I think it's sold mostly on their chemistry, which is really
good.
Yeah.
But I think, you know, like Tasha's acting her socks off.
You know, there was a sort of thing where she was almost lesbian
representation in series one because she had sort of short hair
and used to beat the crap out of people and stuff and I certainly
had like gay female friends who kind of liked that.
But obviously we don't have gay representation in Star Trek and
the entire ideas completely unthinkable.
But, and they do bring her back here to kind of heterosexualize
her and they soften her look and all of that sort of thing.
Do you remember?
Do you remember the, the, she kept going on about like rape gangs
and things like this.
Yeah, that was kind of awful.
Oh, it was horrible.
But okay, so I've got a quote here from Ron Moore.
Okay.
About Tasha Yar's departure scene in Sarah's one, which was what
skin of evil, at the hands of the tar creature Armus.
Um, and he says that nobody on the series liked how she left and
the fans didn't like it, and I'm fairly certain she didn't like it
too.
So we deliberately wrote this to redress that.
So they wanted to give her another owl, but are better out and boy
did they do that?
Yeah, I think it's so good.
And it would have been, like, it occurred to me when I was
watching it this time that it could easily have been, you know
let's get Denise back as a regular and this is how we do it and we
could have found some space way to sort of get her back into the
regular timeline or whatever.
But I like this idea and just the fact that she's died in such a
sort of pointless way works incredibly well to motivator.
Look at these two.
This is so great.
This is, you know, the walking along the corridors, Castillo and
Yar, and they're just delivering exposition, essentially.
But look at her smile, like she's kind of thinking I'm in there
you know, like she's wonderful.
And they get this dialogue in a minute where he's like, you know
oh, my friends don't call me Castillo.
My mother called me Richard.
And she's like, oh, okay, Castillo.
No, no, no, I preferred it.
You call me Richard.
And it should be horrendous, but they play it brilliantly.
But I think the reason that it's, oh, look, she's put some Lippy
on.
Captain Garrett is now, wash the face and put some Lippy on
between scenes.
She is a female captain after all.
That is true.
Unlike um, unlike um, Richard, who is uh, still really kind of
schmutzi.
Oh, here we go.
We are going to have a confrontation here with...
I think I think this is the only moment where Dr. Bever gets to
like show her teeth is when she's always, she always does it with
Picard, where she's like, no, no, I'm the medical officer.
You'll do what I say.
She is so great though.
Yeah.
No, the reason that I think that the, the, I would prefer you to
call me Richard thing could be creepy, but Richard is the, is our
abashed tears.
You know, like he's like slightly embarrassed to say it.
It's adorable.
Well, and they're both throughout.
They're both really tentative with each other because they clearly
want to, you know, have sex with each other until they snog in the
transporter room and then there's kind of like a confidence
between them from that point on.
It's really well done.
And given that this must have been rehearsed and recorded very
quickly.
If the script was written in a weekend.
They haven't had they really haven't had time to work on the
relationship or anything like that, you know?
No, I think they play it incredibly.
Oh, my.
How have we got this far into the episode without talking about
Whoopi Goldberg?
Who?
I think I think she's the best in this episode.
And there's a scene coming up in a minute where without dialogue
she manages to unnerve me more than the Borg. where she walks into
10 forward and looks at Tashier. and it's all in her eyes where
she's like, you're not supposed to be here.
Yeah.
What about Patrick Stewart?
I have a controversial view that Patrick Stewart isn't quite as
great as everyone thinks he is.
He's still great, right?
He is still great. he is incredibly good here.
Like the the way that he plays it, he plays it completely
different.
This is not at all like the normal Picard.
Like, normal Picard is sort of brusque and business-like and stuff
like that, but he's really, really different.
Even just the way he carries himself. angry, isn't he?
Every night of dialogue, he says has got an anger to it.
But it also says that he's quite brittle as well.
Yeah, he's on the edge, you know?
It's sort of clipped and stuff.
He doesn't make eye contact with his subordinates as much.
He's not warm with them in the way that we're kind of used to by
now.
There's a kind of relaxed arrogance about the normal Picard, isn't
there?
Yeah, you know.
Whereas here, yeah, he's kind of edgy.
I always feel like he's on the verge of snapping, which I quite
like.
Here's your scene with Ruby Goldberg coming in and giving dead
Tasha side eye.
Dennis McCarthy did the music for this and he does a lot of music
throughout TNG and DS9.
I think Voyager as well.
He said, this is his favourite score. of the entire run.
And you can see why, because in this scene here, the violins all
come in and it's really discordant and weird.
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Look, but look at her.
Look how unnerved Denise Crosby is acting.
You know, like there's a whole heap just being done by with facial
expressions and stuff because like Star Trek, Star Trek.
It's usually Star Trek acting, you know.
And and so they're not required to kind of convey subtle emotions
or anything to each other and they're not really required to
convey anything very subtle here.
But, um, But just the 2 of them looking at one another.
It's so incredibly good and she's so quick to work something out.
Like, there's a whole heap of sort of unspoken stuff here and
we'll get to it a little bit later.
This is the 1st point where, um, obviously we know as an audience
things have changed and things like that.
This is the 1st point where they're driving home. the fact that
somebody really knows that this isn't how it should be.
And it's just done with her face.
Can you even own any dialogue?
No, no, no one reminds me.
That's on the fact that she's here.
Desperately underracing Whoopi Goldberg, and I think they underuse
her in this show, like horribly.
Well, I think that they generally have her for a couple of hours
or whatever while she's doing something else.
Like, I just don't think they have the opportunity to use her as
much.
She was very keen to do this, though.
She said, I want to do this, didn't she?
They did approach her.
She approached them.
Yeah.
Um, but when they do...
This showing, dude.
Yeah.
And the music again here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so good.
I love the line of dialogue.
The 1st line.
What is it?
First time for, you know, there's a 1st time for everything, and
she means it's the 1st time I've seen this shot as well, where
everyone gets a line of dialogue as he pans across the conference
room.
And again, it's not a conference room.
They're not sat around a table like they do. not sat around that
boring glass table.
It's a bit more dynamic than that, isn't it?
But also the thing about not being sat around the table, having
him stand and lecture to them about what they're going to do
that's another change.
You know, like he's the captain.
It's not collaborative.
You know, yeah, it's not collaborative anymore.
We're in a time of war.
All of that negotiation.
All of the kind of flat team structure is all gone out the
window.
They all come at him saying, we don't want to do this.
And he's just standing there going, well, we're going to do this.
So get on board.
But I mean, there is a very hokey line of dialogue in a minute
which I think it's Geordie that says it, where it's like, oh, who
knows if we're dead or alive?
And then the camera just pans onto cash up.
Dennis okay. leaps into it. literally, you made that point with
Guyan in the last season.
You don't need to do this.
But this is still Star Trek after all.
Sure.
I think too, what's interesting is the reason that there aren't
space reasons why Picard, you know, kind of decides to go with
Guyan.
Guidan actually just says, I don't lie to you.
You know me well, you trust, you can trust me.
You absolutely have to do this.
And it's the 2nd conversation they have about it.
And, you know, like that's enough to convince him.
They lean in on the Picard Guidon relationship throughout TNG's
rum.
Um, and I like the fact that we've gone to an alternative universe
and it's still exactly the same.
You know, they're still, they're still very tight.
And she doesn't push it onto him.
She doesn't say no. telling you you've got to do this.
I'm telling you, this is wrong and you need to make a decision.
Yeah.
And this too.
Oh, Tasha and Data.
Now, that was one thing they got right in the naked now.
Yeah.
No, but he had that.
Do you remember he had the little hologram of her?
You know, like he remembered her.
Like, it was one indication.
That was, come on, that was really overdone, though, that funeral
scene, where he was looking at a hologram and...
But I think it's among his belongings in like Measure of a Man in
series 2 or something as well.
Like, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that's a story about whether he's human or not, and he misses
Mrs. Tasha and Grieves, Tasha.
So, you know, like a little.
You thought she had a lesbian style haircut in series one because
I think that's pretty...
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, you know, like, but there's also a sort of attempt to make
the people from the past to give them a sort of 60s, 50s sort of
look, you know, like Star Trek always, this version of Star Trek
always tells you that it surpassed by going to the middle of the
20th century because that's our past, you know?
And so to sell it to the audience's past, you know, so, you know
Castillo's.
I love those episodes.
Let's not pretend that, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. type travel episodes.
But, you know, look at Rachel's hair.
It's sort of fabulous.
She went straight out of dynasty, was she?
Yeah, where she headed past Mr. Mott, you know, just before coming
back to the Enterprise Sea, I think, probably.
And, um, and, you know, Castillo's like a good old, all American
boy, you know, with blue eyes.
Incredible blue eyes.
I really like the fact that the premise of this episode, which is
quite complex, can be boiled down to a single sentence, and it's a
line that Guidance says, and that is, this is not how things are
supposed to be.
And and the the dramatic way they get out of that idea of of
asking them to commit suicide of um, of Tashi R realising that
she's dead in the other time.
Like, they drive a lot from that very simple idea.
Yeah.
But again, the, like, Picard, in a way, isn't just doing this, and
we discover that in this scene here.
And I really like how fantastically, Stuart underplays this.
You know, like he barely opens his mouth.
He's whispering, so he's not overheard by all of the people around
him and stuff.
But there's a solid practical reason why he gets them to go back.
It's not just because, you know, the timeline or whatever.
It's because he needs them to sacrifice themselves to stop this
war because we're going to lose.
I'll say, sod off.
I'm not doing that Well, um, yeah, interestingly, you could
literally um, cut this into DS 96. even how this is lit.
But you could have a scene featuring Picard saying we're losing
the war in D9 series 6 and you could just rip it out of this
episode.
Yeah, yeah.
The similarities.
I just think it's really interesting.
I, uh, yeah, I think maybe you're right.
I think that what happens is that they discover that this is an
exciting way to do Star Trek and then they when they have their
own show that no one's watching and that no one will be angry at
them about.
It takes a long time, though.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
You know, they have to go through series Wild with all of those
TNG knockoffs. they have to go for all these hoops to get where
they want to go to.
But yeah.
You can't make a quick change in Star Trek, can you?
It's like tentative steps.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Or you just like go off the air for a long period of time and then
a whole group of other people take it over, which is another good
way to do it, I think.
Oh, look, they're looking at each other longingly again.
Oh, it's lovely.
I should have thought Tasha Yah didn't have characterisation
anything like this in series one.
Oh, in fact, there was another quote where Denise Crosby said she
was astonished at how good the script was for this.
So that was basically her, you know, saying how terrible series
one was.
Yeah, well, it was.
It was, yeah.
I love how there's that thing where she starts to say you're going
to be, you know, you've got more ships and shields and whatever.
Do you know what I mean?
Like you'll probably win the battle for these reasons and then she
just tails off because she knows that it's absurd and futile and
just says you'll be fine.
I think that's incredibly gray.
I think we should take a moment to admire Captain Garrett one last
time because she's about to get a massive bit of shrapnel in her
head.
Yeah, yeah.
I just wouldn't see.
I want a job that's not at a console.
Can I work the ship's arboretum or something?
Those rocks.
I know.
So clearly all of the consoles are packed with rocks.
Is that what's happening?
Like they're...
I figure, well, they're weighted down for some reason.
I don't know. with just rocks.
It is super weird, isn't it?
And shards, like they just stuff them with rocks and knives. as
we're about to see as the camera pans down.
Oh, that's very graphic for Star Trek.
Yeah.
And the fact that that saw us into an advert on transmission.
Yeah.
Okay, so in production terms, okay.
The idea of having those rocks in the consoles is to, you know, to
make it look very dramatic when things are happening.
But, you know, you're one of why no one in a production just said
well, yeah, but it doesn't make any sense. be wrong.
Who cares?
It looks dramatic.
We'll just go with it, you know?
You know, like I actually literally went with it for 30 years and
didn't actually realise until you brought it up that it was just
like, why are they full of rocks?
Very bizarre.
Yeah.
Oh, we go.
So he is still...
Sorry, go on.
No call?
No, no, no, I've got nothing.
Oh, well, I was going to say we've lost Garrett now, so we've lost
our strong captain. and it's down to the 1st officer to see us
into the rift.
He's not even the 1st officer.
Is he?
He's just like the con officer or something like that.
Look at the how blue his eyes are.
He's a terribly handsome man.
I think he's in something, but I never know.
This was the only television I was watching in the 1990s.
This is all we have.
They have a, they have an incredibly sort of chased kiss now with
no tongue.
That's very Star Trek as well.
I love this kiss though.
This is a little tearing up moment for me.
I think, just, again, look, look, they're so awkward.
You know, they're so incredibly awkward and they look at one
another.
This is real.
Because, you know, we've all been here.
We've had that 1st kiss.
It is awkward, isn't it?
You're like, oh, should I, is it you?
I don't know. they're going for it.
I don't really want to see tongues. you know, like, I don't want
to see tongues.
That was nice.
I bought that.
I mean, I don't really, I can't really remember in discovery, but
I figure, I think you see more than tongues nowadays, don't you?
It's all a bit steamy, isn't it?
Yeah, I think they're rude in discovering.
I think.
Um, Yeah, they bone.
They said goodbye for the 2nd time.
I think they're gonna say goodbye for the 3rd time soon.
Yeah, yeah. that's when they crash into something, isn't it?
Like, yeah.
Oh, here we go.
Here we go.
Oh, this sequence with Tashiar and Dinan where she says, Tasha
you're not supposed to be here, you're supposed to be dead.
Could you imagine somebody saying those words to you?
Yeah.
I think too.
What's super interesting is that I think that the assumption was
when she turns up in series 2 that she'd always been there.
So she doesn't appear.
We don't see her arrive on the Enterprise and everyone knows her
already.
And so the assumption is that 10 forward has always been there, but
we've never seen it before and Guynan's always been on board.
But what they get to do, the, you know, they get to play on the
fact that this is, you know, that those 2 scenes, that one where
she was looking unnerved and then this one where she sort of tells
it like it is.
Those are the only 2 scenes that those characters have ever had
together.
And so they get to sort of retcon it and say, no, Gynan came on
board the ship after Tasha died.
And it's just convenient.
Yeah.
They had a refit of the ship in series two, episode one.
Your favourite.
Of course.
In fact, it's an interesting series to episode one, the child
because they make a lot of changes.
It's terrible.
Yeah, it's really awful.
Did you see the captain's locked there?
It's just numbers.
He's just sitting there going...
It's a haunted look on Denise's Crosby's face now as she walks in
like...
And she's like, I'm supposed to be dead.
And I like the fact that Picard isn't really angry.
He just says, oh, she chose to share that information with you.
I think he's on board now, isn't he?
I love that.
She thought it was necessary to tell you that.
It's really, like, he's a little bit annoyed.
And it is only when, um, like when she makes, look how, like, he's
sort of shattered and and he doesn't make eye contact with her
when he tells her to sit down or anything.
It's so good.
Even the what did she say to you?
You know, it's like he knows that Guynan must have told her this.
It's so good.
The lighting in this scene.
Why isn't the show always lit as well?
It's so dramatic.
Well, it's, I, you know, I think it's actually a little bit too.
I know, I see, I don't mind people.
See, I'd want to turn the fucking lights on if I was doing some
work.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, what's he doing?
Just sitting there in the dark, for God's sake.
Like what's going on there?
It is a dramatic TV.
Yeah, drama.
There's a little bit of warmth here from him, but it is so
underplayed compared to what he's normally like.
And he's not jovial, you know.
Okay, I very need to quickly to remind you of a moment in Hide and
Q in series one between this pair where Q puts her in the penalty
box on the bridge and he's like, you know, Tasha, you can cry when
you're in the penalty box and then she goes, oh, if you weren't my
caption.
Oh, yuck.
They've come a long way since then.
I'll take this level of warmth over that.
Thank you very much.
This is what they're talking about here, the sacrifice committing
suicide for history.
It's a big weighty ideas and Star Trek isn't afraid to play about
with these kind of ideas.
Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
There's a little bit of a kind of unreality about it, and I don't
know, maybe it's just because I'm a sort of comfortable middle
class person who's never risked my life to do anything.
Um, and like I don't know what war is like or anything like that.
But I cannot believe you're doing a Star Trek commentary, you're
saying there's a little bit of unreality, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But but I do think they do their best to sell it.
Like, she, you know, she's going to die anyway, but she can help
and that will be meaningful.
Like she can go out and they'll wreck it later. spoilers.
He gets to make the choice instead of evil.
She's just flung across a set.
Like, well, guess get rid of her, you know?
Like, I think it was intended to be shocking and random.
Like, because a death like that of a major character would
normally be this centrepiece of the episode, but it kind of, it
has to go on hold so the stupid action can take place in that
dreadful episode.
Do you remember that dramatic red blob of blood?
about that today.
And it looks so unrealistic.
Look, there's a jellyfish on her face.
It was Sharpie, but it's like a little, it's very weird.
But here she gets to make a choice.
She gets to be a hero and, you know, like, if you're going to go
out in TV terms, that's the way to go, right?
Yeah, it is them kind of fixing the narrative, isn't it?
But, I mean, Garrett says that heaps of them didn't want to slip
out during a fight, you know, heaps of them want to go back.
You know, it's not like that.
That is a dreadful old Star Trek cliche where they're like, oh
we're going into war.
Anyone who doesn't want to go, step backwards and nobody does.
I want it to be an episode where everybody set us back.
I go, nah, not me.
And it's that, I'm going to miss my loved ones.
It's kind of like, it's 22 years, for God's sake, they'll be
fine.
Don't people sort of live for long periods of time, you know, like
goodness sake.
Do you know what the most egregious example of that is?
Well, I just said that.
It's in Voyages of 37s where they've got a choice to go down and
be on this wonderful planet.
And Janeway goes, right, anyone who wants to go, go to the cargo
bay, and I'll see you off.
And she's outside the, outside the door, going, oh, my God, how
many?
They're all going to be in there.
I'm going to lose my crew.
And no fucker's in there at all.
But God, say, I would have been the 1st one in there.
Get away that long.
I don't know.
What was the Wi-Fi like on that planet?
It was a Wi-Fi, like a Voyager.
It's gel packs, isn't it?
When cheese can bring your ship down, you're in trouble.
Oh god, they dumped that pretty quick, didn't they?
Here we go.
Let's make sure that history never forgets the name Enterprise.
There we go.
That's a very famous line, that.
Yeah.
He's also not doing his usual fruity RSC delivery as well.
You know, and he's all a bit more clipped and a bit, he's a very
leisurely battle sequence.
He does have a moment earlier in the episode where he goes, not
good enough, but it's good enough.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But even that's not his normal delivery.
It's not, you know, everything is a little bit more tight.
His throat is tighter or something.
Like everything's a little bit more clipped and urgent and stuff.
I'm gonna make a confession.
I don't think there is an urgent action sequence at all in the
next generation until generations.
Oh, what about Roger Dana, though?
What's that?
Oh, you know, the hunter.
He runs through the ship and stuff.
No, there isn't really.
Oh, I meant, I meant like a space battle.
Oh no, no, no.
Well, like at this point...
Not even in best of both Wales, because what they did, they
redress that in emissary and it's a fantastic opening sequence
emissary where they're attacking the board ship.
Um, and that's why that, that, were they arrive late?
Battle of Wolf 359, they couldn't afford to arrive at the battle.
We didn't see it.
But, like, I think this shot where the Klingon ships, like, wing
now here comes into shot and stuff over the top of the, like, it's
sort of a cliche, but it's all done over kind of stock footage
that they have of the, of the enterprise and stuff like that.
There's one scene where the where the model and it's all emotional
controlled cameras, you know, and the model kind of turns around
and starts to sort of come up.
I'm gesticulating, demonstrating it for the podcast.
You've seen this, like that shot, how many times have we seen that
shot?
That explosion, I reckon, that actual explosion.
So they can't afford it at this point.
They're still having a go.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
They make up for it with rocks with rocks in the things.
Riker is about to get a knife in the head because it's rocks and
knives.
Well, they also seem to pack those consoles with explosives as
well.
It's very old.
If I works there.
I just wouldn't want to go anywhere near them.
Yeah, like earth something, for God's sake, just earth.
I'll be the counsellor, all right?
Don't want to go near a pad.
I actually quite like Geordie in this too.
He gets to do some urgent shouting.
And there's something really great about this, which they would
never really properly have thought of in original trek, which is
just that thing there where he can stand in the in engineering and
deliver urgent dialogue and it can just be heard by all the other
characters.
I think that's sort of actually pretty cool.
Here he is.
A question for you.
Walking up to the camera.
How do you feel about the decapitation of Wesley Crusher?
Yeah, yeah.
This was an original, this was originally going to be a feature
that they couldn't afford because Will Wheaton's mother objected
to them decapitating him or something.
They just, yeah, they didn't have the money for, you know, an
elaborate action sequence.
So they just, they basically cut straight to Riker's death.
Yeah.
But imagine seeing the decapitation of Wesley Crusher.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, here he goes.
A whole heap of rocks there. a knife came out of a flew out of
the.
I think a rock here or something.
But I like the fact that they cut to him dead on the floor and
they don't clear up the rocks to like, you know, to get over the
awkward explanation as to why they're there.
They're just falling in focus, aren't they?
Of course it's Picard.
There has to now take the...
It's on fire.
There's fire in the foreground.
Here we go.
Don't move, just stay still, enterprise.
I mean, if you think about it carefully, yeah.
It's the Klingons, right?
So they're all about self-sacrifice.
If they wanted to, they literally could have just like barged into
that ship, you know, crashed into it and got rid of it very
quickly.
I suppose.
Oh here we go.
And now we're back to normal and there's look, there's Deanna in
the background looking concerned. always back.
I love Tiana.
Oh no, I was going to say, that's not the end, is it?
No, we have a scene with Guyana, don't we?
She's like, is everything okay up there?
Yeah, yeah.
I was actually wondering what that scene was doing.
I was wondering what that scene was doing.
And I think what it's doing is that she's the only one who knows
that something has happened.
Like, she's the only one who's affected by any of this because no
one else can look at that woman's hair that the waitress has the
most fabulous 80s nylon air.
But, um, like she's the only...
That's always been like a thing about her species, isn't it?
they can kind of sense things.
There's that that thing with her cue.
Yeah, that they've got a long history and that she lives a long
time.
She talks about how, you know, 100 husbands or something at one
point.
Like in the suggestion that she's lived, you know, the entirety of
TOS and next generation.
Um, but I like that about her.
Well, but I mean, here the idea is that these events have to have
affected someone and what effect do they have?
She's never met Tasha, but she goes and sits down with Jordan and
asks him about her.
And I think that's actually really quite good, you know.
It's a nice tagline.
But I tell you what, that is a packed episode, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's, it, it, it, Star Trek, the Next Generation tends to be
very stately. and very talky and very kind of moving.
Paceless.
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess so.
I guess so.
But, um, you know, it's also ludicrous high concepts and stuff
like that.
Like, I love Star Trek the Next Generation, and like, I
acknowledge that it isn't necessarily the best of, um, it's not
necessarily the best of 90 Star Trek, um, but it is my sentimental
favourite.
And like I love those characters far, far more than they have any
right to be loved, I have to say.
I cannot believe that you would point at this episode and call it
absurd high concept when you've already mentioned Genesis in this
episode.
Okay, and I think we've, no, we didn't mention rascals, but I'm
mentioning it now when let's turn them all into kids.
Oh, great.
I mean, I could just throw I could just literally throw my finger
in any direction.
What about the game?
where someone tries to bring down the Federation with a computer
like a terrible 3D. terrible computer game.
So good.
Very funny, though.
But that, that for me, I think I said this at the beginning
episode, I'm going to say at the end, that is a top 10 across the
franchise episode, I think.
I think everything's firing on like 4 cylinders now on.
Yeah.
And it's one of those things where, you know, it's written by a
committee and you just expect that it's going to be dreadful.
It's that sort of thing where you look.
I imagine watching it for the 1st time in seeing all those, you
know, story credit by and telly play by and thinking this is just
going to be an absolute kind of huge fucking mess.
And it absolutely comes together.
It looks great.
The stakes are high.
It fixes a weird, a weird choice that they made in series one.
You know, it's really, really great.
The only thing is they will fuck it up in series 5. they'll ruin
that ending Oh, with Romulan Tashiar coming back.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think as well.
I don't know if it's the premise.
I don't know if it's because there's another enterprise.
I don't know if it's because of how it's directed or shot.
Something's different about the performance in this.
Everything.
Everybody is upping their game a bit in this.
Um, And then I think if you, what's next, the offsprings next.
And, you know, which is a good episode.
But I'd only say, you know, Spiners up in his game in that one and
everyone's back to delivering their made for TV performances, you
know?
It's time for us to choose our next Star Trek episode.
And so this time, I'm going to press the button on untitled Star
Trek Project.com slash randomiser.
And I thought that we might pick an episode from Joe's favourite
Star Trek series.
Now, I don't know if you've ever mentioned this in the time that
I've known you, Joe, but what is your favourite Star Trek series?
It's very, very rare for me to express an opinion.
So it's highly unlikely that I have.
Um, it's Deep Space 9, which I think is, uh, is my 2nd favourite
television show of all time.
Doctor Who's number one?
Space 9 is number two.
And there's a 100000000 reasons for that, which we'll go into as
we talk about DS9 episodes, but I'll sum it up very quickly with
sophisticated storytelling, an incredible secondary guest cast.
Um, Just like, asks hard questions about the things that Gene
Roddenby wants to talk about.
Um, you know, sort of examines the Roddenborough universe in a
really compelling way.
Um, the effects come on in leaps and bounds as we go through, the
set pieces get way more uh, stylish and more exciting, um, and
come the latter half of DS9. 4 through to 7.
I think that's the strongest run of episodes in any Star Trek
show.
It's sophisticated, it's exciting, and it's beautifully acted.
There we go.
Excellent.
Okay, all right.
Those all sound like convincing reasons to me.
So that means we're just going to get something like move along
home or if we should get the horses.
Down, 2, 4.
Oh my god.
Can we get moving on homeward, doing it, all right?
Okay, all right.
That's a solid commitment.
Now, as usual, we can re-roll if we get something really tiresome
until we're sort of super embarrassed by the whole process and
stop.
What did you want to say?
I was just going to say push the button.
All right, okay, here goes.
Here goes.
Uh, and you can't see this because I can't see it all.
Shut it, mirror.
Oh, not a typical one.
It's a mirror episode.
Yeah, it's the one with the weird gay subplot between Wharf and
Garak.
I mean, that's an interesting start.
Well, what do you think?
Oh, I tell you what, roll it again and then we'll choose between
the two, all right?
Oh, really?
Is that allowed?
I don't know if that's all right.
You had 3 roles for mine.
Yeah, yeah.
But, you know, we just moved along.
All right, here goes.
Paradise.
Oh my.
Oh, yes.
Oh, okay, so that's a little quieter.
That's series 2.
It's the one with the crushed spaceship with the Technophobes
where Cisco and O'Brien are there and Alexis, who's essentially
Catherine J.
Wick, because she sounds just like her.
She's basically running a coal where they're not allowed to use
technology.
Do you remember Cisco gets shoved in a sweatbox?
The box.
Yes, I think I remember the box.
Okay, well, okay, I feel like it should be one of these 2 because
they're both good episodes to talk about.
Well, I don't know.
We did re-roll.
Go for it.
Do you want to do paradise?
I don't know.
No, no, no.
Let's roll it one.
Let's make 3 old default.
Come on.
We have to go with this one, right?
Yeah, this is the one Oh, God, it's gonna be like...
Unless it's really terrible. profit and lace.
No, it's going to be...
Let's hear who is without sin. if it's that.
Oh my god.
At least that has Vanessa Williams in it.
All right, here goes.
It's profit and lay.
We're not doing transphobic deep say sign episode on our 1st deep
say sign episode, so we're rolling again.
One more time.
Profit and lace.
Are you embarrassing the process yet?
I'm not.
Yeah, Melora.
Oh, no, roll again.
That's got Dr. Grace Holloway from Dr. Who in it.
It does.
Okay, one more time.
Okay, number five.
The House of Quark.
Oh, let's do that.
That's run more.
That's a terrific comedy.
Beginning of series 3 where the show is pulling its shit
together.
Like TNG.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it has the exchange.
I'm so sorry, I'm talking about the episode already. where she
just says to him, she kind of leans in and says, if you don't take
your hand off my knee, I will shatter every bone in your body.
It's so funny.
Let's do that.
Okay, all right, brilliant.
The House of Choir.
All right, so we will see you next time with Deep Space 9's House
of Guark.
So you can watch it before then.
Salivating.
You've been listening to Untitled Star Trek Project with Joe Ford
and Nathan Bottomley.
You can find us online at Untitled Star Trek project.com, where
you can find links to our Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube channel.
Our podcast artwork is by Kayla Ciceran, and the theme was
composed by Cameron Lamb.
This episode was recorded on the 21st of September 2021 and
released on the 5th of November.
We'll see you next time for Deep Space 9s, the House of Quark.